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Comments for the week ending January 26, 2025

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I'm happy to see more updates coming in from the Kickstarter; it's looking more and more like the reprints are getting close. Here's hoping the momentum keeps up.

Commenting sort of late here, but I did mention I would have more to say about "The New Olympians." Fortunately, I think Craig has already said most of it by mentioning its heavy-handedness. The issue I had originally was that, but it went a bit further. That sort of heavy-handed treatment of prejudice and bigotry was more or less a standard-issue script in afternoon TV at the time. I've mentioned that "Protection" confirmed for me that the show wasn't going to follow boilerplate plots, and I'd been happy about that; now, suddenly, here is a (somewhat) boilerplate plot and I remember being deeply disappointed by that. Fortunately, I think I also realized this was probably more of a misfire than anything, but the thought that the writing could be caving in on itself is one I am sure I had at the time.

Having it followed by "The Green" didn't help things a whole lot, but at least that one had (to echo Craig again) a bit more nuance to it, so it didn't then feel as much like a boilerplate ecology plot. And I seem to remember it just being a lot more fun in the end.

Todd > Regarding "The Bright Sword," I picked that up together with "Le Morte d'Arthur" and "The Once and Future King"--I did kind of an Arthurian bulk buy--and opened the front pages to see the Monty Python quote. Not what I'd expected, and an interesting choice. But I will confirm that the first few paragraphs are a very good first-person description of a swordfight. I've forcibly refrained from reading further since I kind of wanted to take the books in order.

morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]

Ignore my previous post. I was unwisely addressing a troll.

97 Days until Demona #0!!! And hopefully trades and reprints in the meantime. I'm particularly excited to read Clan-Building and Redemption in full size (or larger now actually!). We only got to read some of those in digest size.

2025 has a slow start for Gargoyles, but I'm anticipating that we'll have a lot to talk about by years end!

Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."

You're not. And we are not exclusive. Welcome and help yourself to the cookie table.
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."

Jurgan> "though I assume the Mayan clan was already there. Wonder if they came across the Bering Strait." I actually suspect that gargoyle migration took a very different path than human migration. I think both Scottish gargoyles and Mayan gargoyles have their roots on Atlantis. And I think the gargoyles at Wyvern were only distantly related to those at Loch Ness and London. I believe Wyvern (the dragon) brought the ancestors of the Wyvern Clan to Scotland from Atlantis when it sank. And I think a similar thing happened to the Mayan Clan. I'm basing this partially on their shared morphology and also on the fact that the Praying Gargoyle, which was made on Atlantis, looks like a Wyvern gargoyle.

As for the "clans all over the world" comment, I think this was just knowledge passed down over the generations to Goliath and his Clan. Maybe, as Bishansky suggests, that knowledge came from Wyvern, but I think there was a point where this was just common knowledge to all gargoyles. Even if he didn't know about the New World, I think he knew that at one time there was a clan anywhere you looked. They knew that gargoyles dominated the planet for a time. Even in Goliath's time, there were several known clans in Scotland. By the time he arrives in 1994 and hears from Xanatos that they are the last of their kind, he, like us, must assume that all the other clans were wiped out worldwide.
What is more strange about the comment is that he had already encountered a clan in London so I'm not sure why he was surprised that "any of them survived". Maybe he meant clans outside of his "known world". Meaning the British Isles.

Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."

The combination of Craig's mention of the Three Keys to Power (in connection with the Thirteen Treasures of Britain) with "clans all over the world" reminded me of my speculation, a few years back, of how the Roman Magus was able to place the humility spell on gargoyles everywhere, since we know that the surviving gargoyle clans are all (or mostly) in regions outside the Roman Empire's bounds in Caesar Augustus's day. When I was rewatching "Avalon Part Two" in 2019 for the 25th anniversary and heard the Magus say that the Phoenix Gate allowed one to traverse time or space with but a thought, it struck me (since we'd already gotten hints that the Roman Magus used the original Three Keys to Power) that this was how the Roman Magus was able to place the spell on gargoyles in those places; the Gate would allow him to teleport there, and the Grimorum and Eye of Odin would presumably have provided him with the awareness of where those clans lived.

I remember a hint from the Gargoyles Series Bible that Chinese gargoyles (such as the Xanadu clan, though that's still canon-in-training at this moment) might resemble Chinese dragons, and that could be another mark (alongside Zafiro) of gargoyles being related to dragons.

Oh, and, Happy Burns Night, everyone! (I wonder whether any of the Manhattan clan have discovered Robert Burns yet. He is a countryman of theirs, after all - sort of.)

Todd Jensen

Some time ago, I don't remember when, we discussed Elisa and the politics of "The Green" and whether because of her background she would've been a little more sympathetic to those fighting deforestation or land snatching. Personally, I've felt that because she's so close to her dad (who has his own complicated feelings regarding his heritage) she tended to see herself as a cop and American first, the other parts of her heritage were more secondary. In any case, she's certainly not perfect and this episode does demonstrate that.

Zafiro is certainly one of the most interesting designs for the gargoyles and making him a feather serpent ties well to Central America's culture. I'm really hoping for more gargoyles similar to him; the London Clan had their heraldry motif but still kept the overall bipedal shape. Having a species that can originate a snake-like lower half is something I want explored more.

As for other clans, it's important to remember that there was still the other clans like in England during Goliath and Demona's time. Not to mention that if Odin's comments were true, there's a chance there were gargoyle clans in the Nordic/Germanic areas as well. Given that Viking raids did occur in that period, there's a chance they could have also learned about other clans from word from visitors from mainland Europe.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

CRAIG> "One thing I wonder about. Goliath says, "Long ago, there were clans all over the world, but I was not aware any of them survived." How the heck would Goliath have known, back in the tenth century, that there were clans all over the world?"

Right now I tend to think that knowledge came from Wyvern the Dragon. Who knows just how ancient he is, how far he's travelled. We know he brought the ancestors of the Wyvern Clan to Wyvern Hill at some point. I could see him talking about how once the "stone flesh" spread across the world before the humans came.

Greg Bishansky

"One thing I wonder about. Goliath says, "Long ago, there were clans all over the world, but I was not aware any of them survived." How the heck would Goliath have known, back in the tenth century, that there were clans all over the world?"

He likely would have heard that they were all over the known world, which at the time mostly meant Eurasia. The Archmage or whoever else likely knew about clans in other countries and just simplified it to "all over the world," perhaps exaggerating to make his knowledge seem more impressive. He certainly wouldn't have known about any clans in the Western hemisphere, though I assume the Mayan clan was already there. Wonder if they came across the Bering Strait.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Todd > Thank you for the writeup on the Thirteen Treasures of Britain. One thing that strikes me is how these magical objects are mostly themed around basic human survival needs such as eating, drinking, clothing, transportation, and self-defense. A stark contrast to the 'Gargoyles' Keys to Power, which have much more ambitious powers allowing for the domination and enslavement of all of humanity. It's an interesting insight into the ways that storytelling has evolved. As has been mentioned recently, superhero-type stories such as 'Gargoyles' are an extension of classical myths; but centuries ago, the idea of taking over the entire world wasn't even something that was conceivable as an ambition (even the general concept of "the world" was pretty fuzzy). The magical objects in classical myths had decidedly more modest powers. I wonder when the first "world domination" story surfaced?

"The Green" is an enjoyable episode. A bit preachy, but preachy in the name of a great cause, so I'll allow it. And the nuance of Elisa's perspective is very welcome. You make a great point that she's kind of a hypocrite here. She's willing to bend the law back in Manhattan to achieve the desired results, but draws a line here when the Guatemalan gargs are trying to protect their home. It's a good reminder that none of these characters, even the best of them, are perfect.

Vogel is interesting to me in this one, as he seems to really be kind of a bastard still, going behind Renard's back and working with violent sociopaths--and even noting that Renard wouldn't approve. I love Renard, but it makes me wonder...was he REALLY blind to how immoral Vogel was? Or was he just willfully obtuse because Vogel was useful? I want to believe the best about Renard, but it's really hard to believe he could work with Vogel on a daily basis and retain the belief that Vogel had "integrity."

Of course, one of the coolest things about this episode is the "timeshare" between Manhattan and the World Tour arc. I feel like this is something the show could have gotten away with doing maybe once more. It's a great example of the producers "having their cake and eating it too," expanding the show's universe and indulging their World Tour itch while also letting us see the home front. I remember being really excited about that when I first saw this one.

One thing I wonder about. Goliath says, "Long ago, there were clans all over the world, but I was not aware any of them survived." How the heck would Goliath have known, back in the tenth century, that there were clans all over the world?

Craig

JURGAN - My description of Proteus was influenced by a comedian put-down that went something like this: "At least you're not prejudiced. You hate everyone equally, regardless of race, color, or creed."

Rewatched "The Green" today. This episode not only introduced another gargoyle clan into the series, but showed a different style of "gargoyles protect", for some variety. (I've had a creativity demon of yet another such variant for a while, inspired by a documentary series on lighthouses in the United States that I saw many years ago. One of the lighthouses had a gargoyle sculpture on it; I got the idea from that of a few gargoyles living in a lighthouse after the humans had left for some reason, and keeping it running - since lighthouses serve a protective function in helping ships, this would fit in with their instincts. Of course, since it doesn't match what we know about any of the surviving clans' homes, they would have to be gone now; it might have made an interesting Timedancing adventure for Brooklyn, though. When I shared the idea here a while back, someone couldn't resist applying the "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" remark to it, which hadn't occurred to me until they said it - though once they did say it, I realized I ought to have considered it.)

And we see more of the "regional variants" at work with these gargoyles, especially Zafiro, who's clearly modeled on the feathered serpents/couatl of Mesomerican mythology (continuing the notion of gargoyles inspiring various myths and legends). This design stood out to me all the more now that we know that gargoyles are related to dragons. (And "The Green" itself probably stands out even more now that we saw the Mayan gargoyles in "Gargoyles Quest", and were even treated to Broadway returning the Sun Amulet to them.)

Elisa provides a bit of drama here in her concern about the gargoyles' actions - pointing out, for example, the difference between farmers who need to cut down a few trees so that they can grow their crops and big corporations engaging in massive tree-felling. (It might not entirely gel with her tolerating the gargoyles' crime-fighting activities back in Manhattan, which could be considered to be vigilantism.) I'm not sure whether the script did as well with that element as it could have or not.

Jackal and Hyena are still regular villains - I know that many reviewers have seen them practically going "Team Rocket" mode here - but I liked the touch of Jackal deciding to "fight smart" and have Hyena destroy the Mayan Sun Amulet, allowing him to get rid of the gargoyles in their stone sleep without a fight. (And then Vogel shows his own ingenuity in pointing out to Jackal that any damage the gargoyles cause Cyberbiotics' operation will come out of Jackal's pain - meaning now that Jackal can't afford to wait until the morning.) And, just as we thought he couldn't get any creepier, he imagines giving Goliath a "makeover" in his stone sleep.

One element that I'm sure must have gone down well with the viewers was seeing Broadway and Lexington again, back in Manhattan. (Officer Morgan gets a cameo, as well.)

I don't know if this irony was intended by the production team or not, but Broadway and Lexington stop Hyena from destroying the Mayan Sun Amulet with a spear borrowed from a Spanish conquistador (the traditional adversaries of the indigenous humans of Central America), followed by knocking her into a conquistador figure.

And I still suspect that Broadway's response to Hyena's "Didn't your mama" remark with "Leave our *mothers* out of this" (emphasis mine) is an allusion to gargoyles group parenting, something, of course, that Hyena wouldn't know about (or care about if she did know), but Broadway does.

FAVORITE LINES.

JACKAL: Manhattan, Egypt, now Guatemala? Must Goliath follow us everywhere?

HYENA: Hey, he's a fan! And we always make time for our fans!


OBSIDIANA (about Elisa): She's unusual for a human. I like her.


HYENA: Is this going to take long?

JACKAL: How many tenth century Mayan Sun Amulets can there be?


HYENA: Bowling for gargoyles, anyone?

{She forms herself into a bowling ball and knocks Lexington and Broadway over.

HYENA: Strike!


ELISA: Don't go, Goliath. There are other ways to protest an injustice.

GOLIATH: In your world, maybe, not theirs. And what is left of their world is rapidly dwindling.


HYENA: I see your mama never taught you two to take a hint.

BROADWAY: Leave our mothers out of this!


JACKAL: Hey, gargoyles - if a tree falls in the forest, do I get to hear it scream?


OFFICER MORGAN: Well, now, if isn't our old friend Hyena. You have the right to remain silent.

Todd Jensen

I was surprised to find that there isn't a dedicated entry for the number 23 on GargWiki. The number 23 is frequently associated with conspiracy theories and the Law of Fives, which posits that most incidents are directly or indirectly connected to the number five. This number appears multiple times throughout the series, often in contexts that may be more than mere coincidence. Here are some notable instances:

1. In the episode "Revelations," a heavily Illuminati-themed episode, Mace Malone's hotel key is numbered 23.
2. In the same episode, Matt Bluestone's hotel key is numbered 13. While 13 is often considered unlucky, in this case, it's quite the opposite—this key brought Matt luck, leading him closer to the truth about the Illuminati and revealing secrets he had been chasing for years. Additionally, the number 13 ties into the Law of Fives: 13 + 5 + 5 = 23.
3. "Revelations" is the 36th episode produced. Meaning, it was the 23rd episode of the second season to be produced (when you discount the 13 of season one).
4. Elisa and Matt are stationed at the 23rd Precinct in Manhattan. Notably, it is located directly beneath the Clock Tower, which serves as the Manhattan Clan's home and is one of the main settings of the show.
5. Elisa's badge number is 16123.

These instances suggest a deliberate use of the number 23 throughout the series. Whether intentional or coincidental, it's an intriguing pattern that adds another layer of depth to the show.

Given these observations, it might be worthwhile for GargWiki to consider an entry dedicated to the number 23 and its many occurrences within the series.

Patrick S.

I've been browsing the GargWiki, and I had completely forgotten how long it took for them to release the second volume of season two on DVD. It was almost as much time as the gap between the show’s debut and the release of the first season DVD (which felt like a lifetime).

Apropo of nothing, has anyone ever tried to watch Gargoyles on any other language available on Disney+?

Mike

The biggest problem with New Olympians is that there simply wasn't enough time to do justice to the concept, so they had to speedrun characterization with cliches.

"And, for a bit of extra contrast, we have Proteus who seems utterly indifferent to Elisa being a human, based on his being simply straight-out nasty towards everyone"

Kind of reminds me of Shan Yu from Mulan- he's the main villain, yet he's the only one who doesn't look down on Mulan for being a woman.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Yes, the Chronicles of Prydain were a major introduction to Welsh legend for me as well, and one which I still regard fondly.
Todd Jensen

I learned about Dyrnwyn through "The Chronicles of Prydain" which draws from Welsh myth for it's story. They played around with the legend with only those of noble birth able to draw it. The main character Taran tries to use it against the villain the Horn King and gets burned. Which also ends his hopes that he might've been secretly descended from royalty rather than just a nobody orphan.

[SPOILER] The actual twist it that it could only be used by someone of noble worth. Taran was almost able to use it but was rejected because he still had a lot of growing and maturing to do before was ready to use it. [/SPOILER]

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Sorry for the double post, but to answer Craig's question about the Thirteen Treasures of Britain, which I mentioned earlier this week in my comments on "Pendragon", here's a list of them (or one list of them; the description varied from one manuscript to the next - something that often happens with such old legends).

1. Dyrnwyn, the sword of Rhydderch Hael. It burst into flames if anyone other than Rhydderch drew it; Rhydderch was willing to lend or give it to anyone who asked for it, but because of this property (the indication is that the sword's flames would burn whoever other than Rhydderch was holding it), nobody dared ask for it. It was clearly the original of the sword Dyrnwyn in Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain". I suspect that almost everyone here reading this will be most drawn to the fact that its possessor's name was Rhydderch.

2. The food-hamper of Gwyddno Garanhir. If you put enough food for one man in it, then closed and re-opened the lid, it would multiply that food into enough to feed a hundred.

3. The drinking-horn of Bran Galed. It provided you with any drink that you wished for.

4. The chariot of Morgan Mwynvawr. It took you anywhere you wished to go.

5. The halter of Clydno Eiddyn. Whichever horse you wished for would appear in it.

6. The knife of Llawfrodded Farchawg. It could serve as many as twenty-four people at dinner at once, though the list didn't explain exactly how (I'm assuming it was for carving meat).

7. The cauldron of Tyrnog. It would boil the food for a brave man almost instantly, but would not boil the food of a coward.

8. The whetstone of Tudwal Tudclud. If a brave man sharpened his sword with it, it would become absolutely lethal, dealing death to anyone it struck; if a coward sharpened his sword with it, the sword would become so blunt as to be utterly harmless.

9. The tunic of Padarn Beisrudd; it could only be worn by someone worthy or of noble birth; if someone who was unworthy or low-born tried it on, it would not fit him. (This seems to be a variant of a tunic said to have been possessed by a certain St. Padern, who lived in sixth century Britain. According to the Saint's Life written about him, it was a gift from the Patriarch of Jerusalem. King Arthur tried to steal it from Padern, but when he touched it, he sank into the ground up to his neck, and had to apologize to St. Padern for this act in order to be freed. This is one of several Saints' Lives written about holy men in early medieval Britain in which Arthur appears in a negative light; there's been much discussion about this among Arthurian scholars, with some suggesting that the "historical Arthur", if there was one, had had some clashes with the Church that led to a hostile treatment in these writings. In the case of the Gargoyles Universe version of Arthur, I suspect that his friendship with gargoyles, assuming it was open, would have gone down poorly with those churchmen who viewed gargoyles as demons, but there's a detail in the Stone of Destiny story in "Clan-Building" that I think might have also contributed; I'll discuss that when I get to that story.)

10 an1 11. The pan and platter of Rhegynydd Ysgolhaig: they provided you with whatever food you wished for.

12. The gaming-board of Gwenddolau. This was popularly translated as a "chessboard", but the evidence suggests it was for a similar game, though with some differences, called "gwyddbwyll". The pieces on it would move about of their own accord; some tales suggest that you could play against it, almost like an early medieval forerunner of computer chess - and the gaming-board generally won. (Similar objects appear in Arthurian tales; Sir Percival had an encounter with one on his adventures.)

13. The mantle of Arthur, which made its wearer invisible; a sort of early "cloak of invisibility".

I don't know if these objects existed in the Gargoyles Universe, of course - "all things are true" but "not all things are accurate". I still thought I'd share them, however.

Todd Jensen

CRAIG AND MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments on "The New Olympians", particularly Matthew's adding extra details to my "mythological background" piece. I'd thought myself that the New Olympians showed some "Ray Harryhausen" influence. And I recall Roddy's performance as Mordred; when I was very young, I was fond of my parents' record of "Camelot" and would often play it, including Roddy as Mordred's singing "The Seven Deadly Virtues".
Todd Jensen

"The New Olympians" is one of those episodes I have a certain soft spot for, even if it isn't high up on the rankings. One such reason is that I'm a big fan of Greek myth, it was the first one I properly studied. So having an episode where the characters were themed after the figures and monsters was neat. Heck, the mixture of sci-fi elements and Greek myth is very Jack Kirby-esque so that's another point. The other thing is one we haven't gotten to yet but is brought up here, the isolation of New Olympus can't last forever so that leaves the question, what happens next? The multiple factions to rise up from this question really intrigues me, I'm a sucker for a good political drama.

A big portion of what makes the episode interesting is the reversal of the traditional inhuman amongst human plotlines, where it's the token human of the heroes now stuck in a situation she feared would happen to the gargoyles, judged, treated unfairly, and overall harassed because she doesn't look like the norm. Helios straight up admitting that he wouldn't care what she had to say is a good example of how bigotry can create assumptions and how hard it is for those suffering from prejudice to prove themselves against years or generations worth of those assumptions.

Todd covered the mythological basis of all the characters highlighted this episode but I do want to add a few things:

For Taurus it's important to bring up how prevalent bulls are Greek myth, both as subjects of sacrifice and monsters, the Cretan Bull filled in for both. A lot of this goes back all the way to Fertile Crescent and the birthplace of civilization as Gilgamesh and his encounter with the Bull of Heaven predates even the most ancient of Greek myths.

Boreas of course has his namesake and the other Boreads. Winged figures are also important figures in Greek myth ranging from the divine like Nike or the Erotes to the monstrous like the harpies or sirens. A lot of his design is what I'd imagine Aeolus, the Keeper of the Winds would look like while his staff also brings to mind Bootes the Herdsman.

Ekidna's snake characteristics are also fairly common in classical iconography especially the Anguiped. Besides her namesake there's the bit of reference to Medusa and the Gorgons, which actually owe a lot to Clash of the Titans as Ray Harryhausen gave her a rattlesnake lower half to make her even more monstrous. There's also the lesser known Ophiogenees, people with the lower halves of snakes that are the descendants of a union between a dragon that guarded Artemis' shrine and Halia, a daughter of Lamia (another monster with serpent characteristics).

Besides seeing more of the New Olympians and what kind myths they'd pull from, I'm also curious to see what the gargoyle clan of New Olympus would look like considering they're supposed to draw from clans from all over the Mediterranean.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Sorry for the double post. One thing just occurred to me: As a shape shifter, Proteus naturally would be less inclined to be racist or speciesist, since surface appearances would be particularly insignificant to him. I'm not sure if that was conscious on the part of the writers/producers, but an interesting subtext.
Craig

I'm probably repeating myself, but the main thing that bugs me about "The New Olympians" is how heavy-handed it is in hammering home a theme/message that was ALREADY at the heart of the entire series from the very beginning, and had been handled much more elegantly throughout the preceding 49 episodes. It just feels redundant and clumsy, and I can't help but feel that was due to trying to shoe-horn in a pitch for a different series into this world. The irony of humans becoming the persecuted species is potentially an interesting inversion, but it doesn't work because Elisa is just about the most enlightened human being in existence when it comes to acceptance, and she has nothing to learn in this context. (And she is presumably also used to varying degrees of persecution already due to her ethnicity...it would be nice if that had been brought up in her conversations with Taurus.) So there's no nuance to the thing. Whereas most of the World Tour episodes change our lead characters in some way, this one just...doesn't. There's no arc for any of them. Their only role is to preach to the ignorant guest stars.

What gives the episode its saving grace is the voice work. Roddy McDowall has always been a favorite of mine (and of course also has an Arthurian connection, having played Mordred in the original Broadway production of Camelot). And Keith, Salli, and Michael Dorn all do exceptional work when playing Proteus in his various guises. The great voice work possibly saves this from being my least favorite episode, but it's definitely in the bottom few.

Craig

So was that last post another bot or an overenthusiastic fan?

Rewatched "The New Olympians" today. I've mixed feelings on this one. The basic concept of a secret island populated by the descendants of the beings of Greek mythology appealed to me when I first saw it - and still does - but, aside from the matter of the New Olympians not coming across that sympathetically (more about that below), which undoubtedly alienated many viewers, I've wondered whether they were also redundant. They're a second intelligent non-human species persecuted by humans, who went into hiding as a result, but who left traces behind in human myths and legends. And they aren't used to serve as a parallel or foil to the gargoyles (like Thailog to Xanatos, say, or Jon Canmore to Demona). The fact that the New Olympians were apparently thought up before "Gargoyles" (if I've interpreted Greg Weisman's statements on that) might account for that, of course.

And the New Olympians' hostility towards Elisa, as I mentioned above, didn't help matters much, though we got some variety in it. Boreas is fairly reasonable - he insists on keeping Elisa a prisoner to keep her from giving their secret away (it struck me watching it this time that, if anything, Elisa's too good at keeping secrets about mythical beings she's met, as Matt Bluestone in "Revelations", Diane Maza in "Mark of the Panther", and Captain Chavez in "Here in Manhattan" could testify), but makes an effort to offer her hospitality. Taurus is suspicious, even blames Elisa for the riot, but still puts a stop to the rioting outside her cell, and accepts the truth about Elisa at the end. (And Talos also takes the reasonable approach - of course, his being a robot means that he isn't likely to develop fear and prejudice the way the other New Olympians did.) And, for a bit of extra contrast, we have Proteus who seems utterly indifferent to Elisa being a human, based on his being simply straight-out nasty towards everyone (in a way that makes him feel almost like the New Olympian counterpart of one of Batman's "rogues gallery" - come to think of it, I recall that he was voiced by Roddy MacDowall, who also did the voice of the Mad Hatter in "Batman: TAS").

Proteus makes a fun villain (another of the better features of this episode). And I liked looking over the New Olympian crowd scenes and getting a look at the "extras" - among others, I spotted a woman with a bow who might have been based on Artemis/Diana (someone whom I'd noticed in past viewings - trust "Gargoyles" to, when it did a Greek mythology-based episode, give a cameo to an echo of a hunting goddess), and a couple of small winged figures who might have been similarly intended as an echo of Cupid.

When Angela protests the way the New Olympians are keeping Elisa a prisoner, Goliath replies that they "cannot wage war on an entire city", which reminded me of his line to Demona in "Awakening Part Five", "I cannot wage war upon an entire world". (And it's Demona's daughter whom he was responding to - which might be interpreted as a chilling thought.)

I very much like the moment where Elisa starts empathizing with Taurus after learning that his father had been killed by Proteus, and wondering what if a criminal were to similarly murder her father.

Proteus still strikes me as giving himself away in his Goliath-disguise thanks to a couple of slip-ups. First, he asks "Who's that guy?" about the imprisoned Goliath; of course, we know that Goliath's speech patterns are a lot more formal than that. Not to mention that he tries explaining his not turning to stone in the daytime by suggesting that New Olympus's force field is protecting him from the sunlight; since the series had already established that it's a biological clock that turns gargoyles to stone in the daytime, not sunlight, it wasn't a very good lie.

I'm still amused by Taurus's remark at the end about Elisa not being like "the humans of legend"; it feels appropriate, given that the humans who waged war upon the New Olympians' ancestors, such as Theseus, have themselves become legend. (It also reminds me of the scene in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" where Mr. Tumnus has books in his house with such titles as "Is Man a Myth?". Not to mention the part in J. R. R. Tolkien's "Farmer Giles of Ham" where some young dragons, after getting a distorted account of the human lands, say "So knights are mythical after all!")

As I said above, not one of the greatest Avalon World Tour stories, but it still has a few good features. (The production team for "The Goliath Chronicles" must have had some fondness for it, in light of "Seeing Isn't Believing".)

A LITTLE ABOUT THE NEW OLYMPIANS: Calling them "Olympians" or "New Olympians" was a bit of a liberty with Greek mythology, of course (if an understandable one). Technically, the original Olympians were the twelve main Greek gods living atop Mount Olympus: Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Ares, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Apollo, Artemis, Hermes, and Dionysus. The New Olympians, on the other hand, seem largely modelled on the minor Greek gods and the fantastic half-human/half-animal beings of Greek myth. (The extra who looks a bit like Artemis is the closest we got to a New Olympian suggesting the Olympians proper, though Boreas did look a bit Zeus-like. We also know that there was going to be a character named Jove in the proposed spin-off, who'd be a more explicit echo of Zeus.) It did, however, provide them with a name that automatically evoked classical mythology, so it's a minor matter.

(I still wonder where the fully animal creatures from Greek mythology - such as the Lernean Hydra, the Nemean Lion, Cerberus, the Chimera, etc. - fit in; are there a lot of strange wildlife roaming about New Olympus? Probably something for the spin-off to handle as well, if it ever gets made.)

On the individual New Olympians, in rough order of appearance:

TAURUS: Taurus, of course, is a descendant of the Minotaur, as he himself states (how the Minotaur came to father children while imprisoned in the Labyrinth is, for now, a mystery). The Minotaur's story is familiar enough that I won't need to repeat it here; given that Theseus is one of Greg Weisman's favorite characters from Greek mythology (he even wrote an episode for Disney's "Hercules" guest-starring him, and giving him a strongly Batman-ish tone), it's not surprising that Taurus would have a major role in it. While "Taurus" is Greek for "bull", there's an additional appropriateness through a family connection. The constellation Taurus was said to be a representation of Zeus making off with Europa in the form of a bull; he took her to Crete, where he fathered Minos, the King of Crete who was a major part of the story of Theseus and the Minotaur, upon her. (Her brother Cadmus went in pursuit of the bull who'd made off with his sister, but at last gave up the search and founded the city of Thebes instead, having a clash with some warriors that sprang up from the teeth of a dragon he'd slain - Greg Weisman would later allude to that story in another of his projects.)

HELIOS: The original Helios was the god of the sun (Apollo being the sun-god was a late development in classical mythology), and, incidentally, brother to Selene, the goddess of the moon (and namesake of one of the Weird Sisters).

KIRON: Kiron was named after the centaur Chiron. Most of the centaurs in Greek mythology were an unruly lot, prone to getting drunk and getting into fights. Chiron was an exception to the rule; he was much more orderly, wise and gentle, and served as tutor to a lot of the heroes in Greek mythology, such as Jason and Achilles. Kiron could have learned something from his namesake (especially given his participation in the riot - all the more disgraceful given that he's one of New Olympus's "police force", like his fellow-rioter Helios). Chiron came to a sad end, alas, he was wounded by one of Heracles' poisoned arrows, which ultimately cost him his life. (Some versions of the story make it worse by having him originally being immortal, which meant he'd have to suffer from the poison for eternity, until he found a way to lay down his immortality and die.)

BOREAS: The original Boreas was the god of the north wind. He carried off an Athenian princess named Oreithiya and fathered twin sons upon her named Calais and Zetes, both of whom had wings. They joined the Argonauts during the Quest of the Golden Fleece, and played an important part in it at one point; the Argonauts met a king named Phineus who was being plagued by harpies (they kept on stealing his food, eating part of it and relieving themselves on the rest), and Calais and Zetes drove them off. I suspect that their being winged was the inspiration for the Boreas of New Olympus also having wings; Greg Weisman's mentioned that this Boreas would also have a pair of sons named Calais and Zetes (though in spellings closer to the original Greek), who'd have turned up as well in the spin-off.

EKIDNA: The original Echidna looked like a human woman from the waist up, a serpent from the waist down. She mated with Typhon, one of the most fearsome monsters of Greek mythology, who had a hundred heads and was so formidable that when he attacked Mount Olympus, almost all of the gods fled to Egypt, where they disguised themselves as animals and became the originals of the animal-headed gods of the ancient Egyptians. Typhon and Echidna were the parents of a lot of the monsters of Greek mythology: the Hydra, Cerberus, the Chimera, the Sphinx, and the Nemean Lion. She was finally slain by Argus, who had a hundred eyes (and who'd likely make an appropriate original for another New Olympian). We know that in the spin-off, Ekidna would have a daughter named Medusa, indicating that she was merged with the Gorgons alongside her namesake above. (The Gorgons would certainly have made an appropriate allusion in "Gargoyles", given their gaze that could turn people to stone - even though the Ekidna of New Olympus didn't have this ability, and I assume the Medusa of New Olympus doesn't have it either.)

TALOS: Talos is the one New Olympian who appears to have been the original figure from Greek mythology, rather than a namesake. In the Greek myths, Talos was imagined as a mechanical man crafted by the great inventor Daedalus or by Hephaestus (though some versions made him the last survivor of an earlier race of humans, from the Bronze Age), and presented to King Minos of Crete (giving him a remote link to Taurus). Talos would patrol Crete, throwing stones at hostile ships and sinking them; if any of the soldiers made it to shore, he'd heat himself up and burn them. The sorceress Medea finally disposed of him when the Argonauts passed by Crete on their way back to Greece after seizing the Golden Fleece; some accounts say that she did so by removing a pin from his foot that caused his vital fluids to flow out (shades of Achilles' heel). Clearly the Talos of the Gargoyles Universe was repaired, if this happened to him (and since he was to appear in the spin-off, he'd clearly been repaired again from the damages Proteus dealt him). (Nathaniel Hawthorne in his "Tanglewood Tales" offered an alternate fate for Talos in his retelling of the story of Theseus and the Minotaur; as Theseus made his escape from Crete, Talos tried to reach down and seize his ship, but lost his balance, fell into the sea, and sank to the bottom; Hawthorne commented "There he lies yet; and whoever desires to enrich himself by means of brass[the material Talos was made of in his version of the story]had better go thither with a diving bell and fish up Talus [sic].") Edmund Spenser included Talos in his unfinished poem "The Faerie Queene" (which I'll mention briefly again when I reach "Ill Met By Moonlight", making him an attendant upon Artegal, a knight representing justice, who carries out sentencing upon the villains Artegal overthrows with an iron flail.

PROTEUS: The original Proteus was a minor sea-god, also known as the Old Man of the Sea, famous for being able to shape-shift into various animals. King Menelaus of Sparta met him on his way back from the Trojan War; he'd been blown off-course to Egypt, was unable to leave thanks to contrary winds, and at last learned that the only way to solve the problem was to find Proteus and question him about how to appease the anger of the gods - though first, he had to defeat Proteus in a wrestling match - no easy feat thanks to Proteus's shape-shifting abilities. (You can get the details in Book Four of Homer's "Odyssey".)

The original Proteus wasn't especially villainous, of course - far less malign than the Proteus of New Olympus. We discussed earlier about how tricksters (like Raven and Anansi) tend to be portrayed as more villainous than the original stories made them; I suspect that a similar angle seems to be taken towards shape-shifters. (Shakespeare probably made it all the easier for such an approach to be taken towards Proteus. In "Henry VI Part Three", Richard, Duke of Gloucester - the future Richard III, one of Shakespeare's leading villains - outlining his future schemes in a soliloquy, says that he'll, among other things "Change shapes with Proteus for advantages". More significantly, in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona", one of the two gentlemen of the title is named Proteus, and while he's not a literal shape-shifter, he's a thoroughly unprincipled deceiver, who betrays both his best friend Valentine (the other gentleman of Verona) and his love Julia when he desires Silvia, the woman whom Valentine is in love with - and even tries to rape her, but is fortunately thwarted by Valentine in time. After which Proteus repents and is forgiven in a very unrealistic fashion; the evidence is that this is one of Shakespeare's beginning plays.)

FAVORITE LINES.

TAURUS: We have no dispute with you, gargoyle.

GOLIATH: You know about gargoyles?

TAURUS: Yes, and we know about humans as well.


ELISA: Listen, Proteus has escaped. He's masquerading as my friend Goliath.

HELIOS: You had to attack me to tell me that?

ELISA: Would you have listened if I just called you over?

HELIOS: Frankly, no!


TALOS: Taurus, if you continue to overload the system, you could trigger an explosion big enough to destroy the entire island.

PROTEUS (disguised as Taurus): Now why would I want to go and do a thing like that?

Todd Jensen

Hi everyone. Could you make a Gargoyles motion comic with the actor from the show? That would be so sweet.
Anonymous

Thanks for the comments on my review. I found Matthew's comment about the Norse myths being almost a forerunner to super-hero comics particularly appropriate and amusing, given what Marvel's done with them.

Your remarks on Odin reminded me of a retelling of the Norse myths I'd written a while ago, done from the perspective of Ratatosk (the squirrel that ran up and down Yggdrasil the World Tree, delivering hostile messages between the eagle at the top and the dragon Nidhog at the bottom - it would probably have been more appropriate to have mentioned it yesterday, since January 21 is Squirrel Appreciation Day). Ratatosk and Odin become friends when they meet during Odin's nine-day ordeal on the World Tree, and Ratatosk even helps Odin on a few of his endeavors (without it getting mentioned in the official accounts); I brought up Odin's failings on a few occasions, such as his using Gunnlod to get at the Mead of Inspiration (complete with Odin admitting guilty feelings over that act, based on an actual stanza from one of the poems in the Poetic Edda). I took the angle of Odin being driven by desperation to commit these acts for such causes as preparing for Ragnarok, troubled afterwards by doing them. (Incidentally, I had a scene near the start where Ratatosk meets Mimir, learns the story of how Odin gave up his eye in return for a drink from Mimir's well, and saw the eye in the well; I had to thoroughly resist the temptation to portray the eye as slowly turning into a jewel.)

Todd Jensen

" One element that still strikes me is just how over-the-top he comes across"

I mean, this is the guy who among other things said, "A gargoyle doesn't whine. He ROARS!" Going over the top is certainly something I'd expect once the Eye started to corrupt him. "Eye of the Storm" really does demonstrate how dangerous the Keys to Power were and ultimately cements that no one person or mortal should have that kind of power. The World Tour is kicked heralded by the loss of one Key and here we lose another. Albeit it's gone to one place where it won't create anymore Werefoxes or power mad megalomaniacs or misguided guardians.

Norse myth is another favorite in world mythology. Like the Greeks (which we'll see soon enough), there's a history within their mythology and fables. There's beginnings, births, politics, families grown, deeds accomplished, losses, and ends. There's been articles and essays (though I can't name them) that cover why fully fleshed out mythologies like the Norse are the predecessors to modern day superheroes. Unlike some myths or folklore that created their tales to explain how the world works, the figures of Norse myth were pretty much characters within their tales with their own adventures, glories or falls.

Which brings us the One-Eyed Wanderer, Odin. It's been a common thing these days to have the gods as truly terrible figures in need to be torn down or killed, usually by emphasizing or hyper-focusing on their negative traits. Odin himself is a bit more complicated than that. He's a trickster to be certain, though not quite like Loki or other famous tricksters, but he's a god of knowledge and magic and is generally written as a manipulator or schemer. He does plenty of terrible things as well as benevolent, but in some cases he's actually punished for his misdeeds, like how he lost the throne of Asgard for ten years due to his defilement of Rindr.

But as Todd pointed out, there are plenty of tales of Odin interacting with humans, I'd say only Thor has him beat in the times he mingled with mortals. And there are plenty of stories of him rewarding humans during his tests as there are of him punishing them. Considering the number of tales there are of him trying to forestall Ragnarok, it's only fitting that this lesson warns about using underhanded or less-than-benevolent means even in the desire to do good.

Incidentally, funny you should point out the parallels of Goliath and Gandalf's own temptation with the Ring. An old engraving of Odin was a big inspiration for Tolkien and there are plenty of similarities between the two.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

The tyrant-Goliath reminds me of "Darkwarrior Duck" from the Darkwing Duck episode "Time and Punishment." Like Goliath, DW justifies becoming more authoritarian as a way of becoming a better protector. He had a lot more time to grow into his wrath, executing people without a trial, and it's likely Goliath would end up the same place.

Also, regarding Tolkien, look up his comments on what would have happened if Gandalf had taken the ring. He says Gandalf would have been worse than Sauron, since at least with Sauron you could tell he was evil, while Gandalf's corruption would have merged good and evil. There's some great art of "dark Gandalf" out there.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATTHEW - Thanks. I'll indeed be covering the comics once I reach the end of Season Two. Your quote was an astonishing coincidence, since I checked out of the library Lev Grossman's "The Bright Sword" (a very recently published work of Arthurian fiction), and the first part opened with that same quote.

Rewatched "Eye of the Storm" today. I've a soft spot for this one, like "Pendragon", because I'm also a big Norse mythology buff - have been ever since I read the d'Aulaires' "Norse Gods and Giants" when I was very young. The name "Eye of Odin" had gotten my interest from when it was introduced in "The Edge", but I hadn't seriously expected it to be literally that - the eye Odin gave up for a drink from Mimir's well - until this episode. It struck me as a logical wrap-up for the Eye, however.

And it provided some particularly chilling and unforgettable scenes for Goliath, as he dons the Eye only to be corrupted by it. One element that still strikes me is just how over-the-top he comes across, particularly in such moments as when he's excited over beholding the sun without turning to stone for the first time (we'd seen Demona and Iago in Coldstone's body also responding to the treat of experiencing the sun, but neither of them were on that scale). He acts increasingly patronizing, even patting Elisa on the head at one point, not to mention smiling much too broadly. I wondered, when watching this episode, how long Goliath believed he was going after Odin to stop him from threatening the others, how long he was keeping his true motives (dispose of his chief rival to the Eye) a secret from himself.

(I've mentioned this before, but this episode, and particularly the Eye of Odin's role in it, has reminded me a bit of "The Lord of the Rings". Odin wants his Eye back for the same reason that Sauron wanted the Ring back; much of his power passed out of him when he parted with the Eye, and he needs to recover it to get back to his original might. And I couldn't help thinking that if someone had tried using the Ring against Sauron, the road their corruption would have taken might have paralleled that which Goliath's corruption by the Eye took - the same justifying your actions as necessary steps to defeating the foe (Odin in this episode, Sauron in Tolkien's book). Of course, one of the major differences is that returning the Eye to Odin turns out to be the correct solution to the problem, definitely not the case with the Ring and Sauron. (The comparison is all the more tempting in light of the "Eye" imagery around Sauron, complete with Bilbo, near the start of "The Lord of the Rings", telling Gandalf that he'd started getting the feeling that the Ring was becoming like an eye watching him.)

For a change, the locals (Eric and Gunther) are simply civilians pulled into the adventure rather than people being called to become heroes; I've read that many viewers found that a welcome difference. I thought they worked well, too. (Their surname of Sturluson stands out to me, by the way; it was also the surname of Snorri Sturluson, the author of the Prose Edda, a major source for Norse mythology. I wonder whether they were distant cousins of his - separated by several centuries, of course, and being from a branch of the family that stayed in Norway rather than relocating to Iceland.)

Odin talks about gargoyles as no longer denizens of "the Norse country", as he puts it. I do suspect that gargoyles lived in Scandinavia at one point, and were the inspiration for myths and legends about trolls, because of trolls turning to stone in the daytime. (The rules are different, of course; trolls turned permanently to stone if exposed to sunlight. It could be a case, however, of distortions caused by the story passing from one human to the next over years.)

Goliath comments to Angela and Bronx, after the Sturlisons have given Elisa shelter, "now we can rest in peace". I do think he ought to have used a more fortunate phrase.

One of the touches I liked was the pattern of Odin's starry cloak also appearing on Sleipnir - and on the "Odinized" Goliath's wings.

Odin shouts, after Goliath rescues Elisa from him, "This isn't over!" - not the first time a Norse adversary of Goliath uttered those words.

Elisa mentions how she'd once thought gargoyles to be "glorified rainspouts". That's certainly a good definition, since true gargoyles (in real-life architecture) are the ones used for waterspouts; gargoyles who don't have that function are technically called "grotesques". I don't think "Grotesques" would have been as good a name for the series, though. (Many years ago, I had a creativity demon about Broadway finding out about this, and deciding to remedy it by filling his mouth with water just before he's due to take his perch at sunrise, and spilling it out through his mouth as he turns to stone.)

Odin mentions having drawn the skiff to Norway to reclaim the Eye; this is (as far as I can recall) the one point in the Avalon World Tour that the skiff's destination was determined by something other than Avalon's general magic. (Of course, we find out in "The Gathering Part One" that Odin's one of the Third Race.)

Odin, as he apologizes to Goliath and the others at the end, admits that he'd gotten rusty in dealing with mortals; I can't help thinking that in such a case, it's just as well they didn't meet any of the other Norse gods. In the Norse myths, Odin was the only one of them who had much interacting with humans. (It does remind me, again, of my wondering what Goliath and the other Manhattan gargoyles would have made of Thor; on the one hand, he was a protector-figure like them; but his regular weapon being a hammer.... Greg Weisman's mentioned that Thor is probably dead in the Gargoyles Universe, a casualty of a "local Ragnarok". He suggested that Loki was another such casualty, and the series already has plenty of tricksters, in any case. Odin clearly survived it - maybe Vidar tearing the Fenris-wolf apart freed him in this version - and the Rainbow Bridge Bifrost was also clearly repaired after being broken by Surtur and his hosts, assuming that that part of the myth was accurate in the Gargoyles Universe.)

I remember wondering on earlier viewings if the staff Odin was carrying in his "old man" guise at the start was his spear Gungnir incognito; we now know that he'd parted with it by 971, though how we don't know as yet. I'll say more about Gungnir when I reach "Gargoyles Quest" (and maybe "Dark Ages: Alliance" before that, though "Gargoyles Quest" seems more appropriate for that).

I can't resist mentioning here (though it wasn't referred to in the episode) Odin's habit of winning riddle-games by cheating a bit and asking a certain unanswerable riddle: What did Odin whisper in Balder's ear when the latter lay on his funeral pyre? (Thought by some to be a parallel to Bilbo's "What have I got in my pocket?", though the latter wasn't - initially - intentional.) I still think it feels evocative of one of the great unanswered questions of "Gargoyles" (though Greg Weisman has stated that it was just a coincidence).

And it'll be a lot harder, after this episode, to recognize Odin when he's in disguise (one advantage for him of getting his Eye back).

One small irony about this episode: the one time the animated series did an "elemental-powered alternate version" of one of the Manhattan clan, Kenner didn't make a toy out of it.


FAVORITE LINES.

ELISA (to Angela, after the latter brought home to Goliath what he was becoming by deliberately falling into the chasm): You took quite a chance. Wish I'd thought of it.


ODIN: I apologize for any trouble I caused in my efforts to reclaim it. It seems I am out of practice dealing directly with mortals.

GOLIATH: I owe you an apology, as well. It seems I am unaccustomed to dealing with a god - or being one.

ODIN: Then we have all gained rare enlightenment this night. The Eye's standard gift.

Todd Jensen

Thanks Todd, couldn't remember if you mentioned whether you were going to cover the comics or not so I decided to do a short bit on the Stone of Scone.

I also knew that when you got to "Pendragon" I just had to do a bit from Monty Python.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments, particularly your analysis on Macbeth. One remark on this episode I recently came across expressed delight that, after Macbeth was rebuking Arthur during the moments when he thinks he's claimed Excalibur for not accepting the fact, after the situation is reversed, he promptly accepts that Excalibur is now Arthur's again, thus living up to his own words.

I'll have more to say about the Stone of Destiny when we get to the "Clan-Building" story about it that does feature that same return. I would like to point out that Arthur isn't specifically English; for a start, his story (when it's set anywhere specific on the timeline beyond "general Middle Ages") is in the fifth and sixth centuries, before the Angles and Saxons claimed enough of Britain to produce "England"; in fact, the more "historically" based Arthurian tales portray Arthur as doing battle with the Saxons. Thus Arthur was "pre-English" (and note that he always speaks of "Britain" rather than "England" in the episodes featuring him). Of course, Arthur's story is also prominent in the non-English parts of Britain, especially Wales (not to mention Cornwall, which is technically English but has its own atmosphere).

Todd Jensen

“Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.”

Not much else to add here, Todd already went above and beyond with the Arthurian lore. But one thing I want to touch upon is Macbeth's role in the episode. He's no longer a true antagonist but he's still working on the transition from occasional opponent to proper ally. His last appearance left him with a sting from "Dominque's" betrayal and the melancholy over what to do with himself now that revenge is no longer his primary goal. He's probably not a man with many happy memories so the chance of drawing the sword and becoming the Once and Future King must intrigue him. Not just because he's a bit of an Arthur fan himself but because one of the few happy memories was probably his brief peaceful rule of Scotland. To lose that, even to a better man, still has to sting and may not help his listlessness over what to do with immortality. At the same time, I have to compliment the episode not just for Macbeth showing humility at the end but also Arthur acknowledging his fetes. He may be too proud to be a knight, but honor and compassion sees the two end as friends.

I should point out how much things have changed, especially regarding the Stone of Scone. For years there'd been contention regarding the Stone of Destiny and it's ownership (this is but a fraction of the conflict between England and Scotland). In the episode, as well as other media, the Stone is given a distinct flair for England and its royalty. However, there was a growing sentiment that the Stone should be returned to Scotland to stay. And just eight months after this episode aired, that's exactly what happened. That being said, I think within the context of the show's own mythology the stone responding to Arthur doesn't just hold to a solely English feel. It's been mentioned before that a lot of Arthurian legend overlaps with myths from Scotland, Wales or Ireland. The Once and Future King in this setting is meant to be a king for all peoples of the islands. From Westport to Norfolk, from the Orkneys to Penzance.

And yes, I'd also love to see a "Pendragon" spin-off in the comics. I really want to know who's going to make up this new Round Table.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd > Nothing much to really add right now on "Pendragon," except to say that I've been looking forward to your "ramble" on this one, for obvious reasons. Your Arthurian tangents are always so fascinating and informative. And count me in as interested in reading about the Thirteen Treasures of Britain sometime.
Craig

Rewatched "Pendragon" today.

I'll admit that it's not one of the "top ten" episodes of "Gargoyles", but I'm still rather fond of this one for the subject matter. I'd hoped to see more of what happened to King Arthur after he left Avalon. To add to that, we have Arthur teaming up with Griff (probably one of the most fun non-Scottish gargoyles in the series), Macbeth returning as Arthur's opponent (just as in "Avalon Part Three" - and he'd also been the antagonist in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" which introduced the Arthurian legend into "Gargoyles"), and giving Hudson and the trio another "home front" adventure.

Having Arthur's goal being to recover Excalibur made sense from the start, but an additional element that recently struck me was the appropriateness of the "Sword in the Stone" element (with a twist this time around, of course) made sense for "Gargoyles". When your leads are associated with stone by turning into it in the daytime, it feels particularly fitting to bring in legends involving stone - such as the Sword in the Stone, and the Stone of Destiny (whose otherworldly elements first appear here).

We know that Greg Weisman holds that the best adversaries are the ones who echo the hero, and it thus makes sense that Arthur's rival in the quest for Excalibur is Macbeth. They're both famous kings from early medieval Britain, and both famous largely through legend and literature(knightly romances such as Sir Thomas Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur" for Arthur, Shakespeare's play for Macbeth). I rather liked Greg's comparing Macbeth to King Pellinore as a king allied to Arthur (does that make Demona the counterpart of the Questing Beast? Better not suggest that to her); it's all the more appropriate in an adventure about Arthur's recovery of Excalibur, as I'll note below.

Arthur's reluctance to consider the possibility that Excalibur might not be meant for him this time around reminds me a bit of the scene in "The Lord of the Rings" where Aragorn is unwilling to part with his sword Anduril at Edoras.

Excalibur seems to gravitate to dragon-guardians, given that we now know it was somehow part of Wyvern's hoard for a while. (Raising the question of how it got there after it was returned to the lake following the Battle of Camlann, and how in turn it went from Peredur and Blanchefleur's keeping to that dragon statue - though given that one of Peredur's major goals seems to have been preparing for Arthur's return, the latter might not be so hard to work out.)

I mentioned in "Avalon Part Three" that the person who awakens King Arthur is a New Yorker rather than someone from Britain (and one who's not even of British descent, at least, not mainly) and the implications of that, and we see more of that in "Pendragon". Although the start of Arthur's quest for Excalibur is in Britain (Westminster Abbey, to be precise) - no doubt to allow Griff to become a companion, the bulk of the action is in New York, with both the familiar origins for Excalibur (the Sword in the Stone and the Lady of the Lake) appearing there. Arthur himself draws attention to this. The implication is that Arthur's meant for a more international scale this time.

Hudson recognizes the wind that heralds Arthur and Griff's arrival, as if he'd encountered it before. No doubt this will be a story for "Dark Ages", if we get more stories from that era.

I still like the touch that Arthur's initial reason for entering Westminster Abbey is to stand vigil, before he discovers the Stone of Destiny there.

Banquo and Fleance know about Macbeth's real identity; he clearly trusted them to share that detail with them. (We also get the foreshadowing of their breaking with him and working for Castaway in their next appearance, when Banquo shouts that Macbeth's not paying them enough for this.)

This time around, I thought, in response to Griff's "Queen Mum" remark, that he must have been picking up a lot about the changes in Britain (including the Royal Family) for the past fifty-something years, given that in 1940 she wasn't the Queen Mother yet, but the Queen as consort to George VI. Then I remembered that there *was* a Queen Mother in 1940, if a different one: Queen Mary, the widow of George V, who passed on in 1953; it raises the question of which of them Griff had in mind (not that it matters much).

Lexington's immediately suspicious of Macbeth, calling him "bad news". While he's still the antagonist here, I suspect that the audience's sympathy towards him was growing after "Sanctuary", where he's the person whom Goliath and Co. have to come to the aid of - but, of course, Lex probably wouldn't know about the events in "Sanctuary" yet (though they'd already clearly learned about the events of "Golem" and "Mark of the Panther", at least). (And, of course, Arthur and Macbeth end the episode on better terms. After what we'd come to learn about Macbeth more and more, from "City of Stone" onwards, I'm glad that his two appearances since this episode, "The Journey" and the Stone of Destiny story, both have him be an ally to the gargoyles rather than an opponent.)

I get a little kick out of the brief confusion over which Brooklyn they're talking about; I suppose such a moment was inevitable (even if it took forty-four episodes after the trio named themselves after New York place-names).

Fleance nicknames Lexington "bat-boy"; another moment which suggests that the production team was feeling less nervous about the series being mistaken for a "Batman: TAS" rip-off.

Another moment I still really like: Macbeth, drawing what he thinks is Excalibur from the stone dragon, refers to himself as "son of Findlaech".

As I said, not as deep an episode as, say, "Shadows of the Past", but still one I rather like.

A LITTLE ABOUT EXCALIBUR AND THE SWORD IN THE STONE: Arthur's sword was mentioned a few times in the early writings about him. The Welsh tale "Culhwch and Olwen" lists it under the name of "Caledfwlch" among his most treasured possessions. Geoffrey of Monmouth, when describing Arthur arming for a major battle, mentioned Excalibur among his gear, calling it "Caliburn" and describing it as being forged on the isle of Avalon. His successors, Wace (who introduced the Round Table into the legend) and Layamon (who wrote Arthur's story in an "alliterative Anglo-Saxon poetry" style, almost evocative of "Beowulf") also mentioned it for their adaptations of that scene.

The French romancer Chretien de Troyes (who introduced Lancelot's affair with Guinevere, and the Holy Grail, into Arthur's story) also mentioned Excalibur, though in an unconventional role, as the sword of Gawain. A few Arthurian scholars have suggested from this that Excalibur was really Gawain's sword and that its associations with King Arthur are a mistake; since the Arthurian writers like Geoffrey of Monmouth whom I mentioned in the paragraph above all made Excalibur King Arthur's sword, and all came before Chretien, I think this unlikely, however. More likely Chretien was departing from the story, though we don't know whether this was a deliberate change or a slip-up. Some of the French Arthurian romances after Chretien tried reconciling the statements by having Arthur lend Excalibur to Gawain for a while (with it presumably being returned to him after Gawain's death), but Malory didn't even bother with that.

The Sword in the Stone was introduced by Robert de Boron, who came a bit after Chretien de Troyes; before him, Arthur apparently simply succeeded Uther to the throne in a routine fashion, and there was no mention of the secret upbringing by Sir Ector. De Boron seems to have identified the sword with Excalibur. A French prose romance called "Le Mort du Roi Artu" ("The Death of King Arthur") a bit after de Boron introduced the famous "throwing the sword into the lake" scene after Arthur's last battle, though in it, the knight whom Arthur entrusts with the role is a certain Sir Girflet (called Griflet in Malory); the more familiar version with Bedivere being tasked with the deed appeared first in a medieval English poem, the stanzaic Morte Arthur, and was taken up by Malory who (alongside Tennyson in his adaptation) provided the much-better-known version.

The author of another medieval French prose romance, the "Suite de Merlin", seems to have thought that it seemed odd that Arthur, after gaining Excalibur by pulling it out of the stone, then had it disposed of by having it thrown into a lake, and decided to introduce some symmetry by having Arthur break his initial sword in a fight with King Pellinore (making Macbeth's parallel with Pellinore that I mentioned above all the more fitting), and the Lady of the Lake then bestowing Excalibur upon him via the arm in a sleeve of white samite rising from the lake. Malory, of course, included all of that in his "Le Morte d'Arthur", making it thus the best-known version, at least to an English-speaking audience.

While Excalibur is probably one of the most famous legendary swords of all time (if not the most famous), its scabbard has received less fame, though according to Merlin in Malory, it was worth ten Excaliburs. Whoever wore it could not bleed. Arthur soon lost it, however, thanks to a scheme of Morgan le Fay's. She made a duplicate Excalibur and its scabbard, secretly switched them with the real Excalibur and its scabbard, then gave the real Excalibur and its scabbard to a knight named Sir Accolon whom she then manipulated into fighting Arthur. Accolon would have won and slain Arthur had not Nimue come to the rescue; I suspect that Arthur immediately recognizing that the sword thrust in the stone dragon was a fake was a case of "I won't be taken in by the same ruse twice". Morgan still managed to make off with the scabbard and threw it into a lake, from which it could never be recovered. (This is Malory's version, but Howard Pyle's retelling improved on that by having the arm in the samite sleeve rise up from the lake when Morgan threw the scabbard into it and catch it, thus having the Lady of the Lake evidently viewing the scabbard as formally returned and no longer Arthur's.) We see no sign of a scabbard in this episode, so presumably Arthur still doesn't have it back in the Gargoyles Universe (though I suspect that, for convenience's sake, he'll need something to sheath it in).

A LITTLE ABOUT THE "PENDRAGON" SPIN-OFF: We know, of course, that this was a back-door pilot for the "Pendragon" spin-off, which, alas, never got made. We also know that Arthur would be looking for Merlin in it - or at least, for the first stage. Roger Lancelyn Green, who was one of Greg Weisman's major Arthurian sources, listed three possible candidates for Merlin's resting-place, although only two of them would have been able to get into the spin-off: "the magic Forest of Broceliande... the Isle of Bards in Cornwall Crag... beneath the Wood of Bragdon". Broceliande was a forest in Brittany with a reputation for marvels, and the French Merlin romances placed Merlin's imprisonment there. The Isle of Bards is probably Bardsey Isle, off the coast of North Wales; Welsh legend had Merlin sleeping there in a "House of Glass" (a clear variant of the Crystal Cave popularized by Mary Stewart), with the Thirteen Treasures of Britain (a group of magical artefacts that I'll go into another time, if anyone's interested); where the "Cornwall Crags" came from, I honestly don't know (though Malory does locate Merlin's sleeping-place somewhere in Cornwall). The Wood of Bragdon was a modern invention, created by C. S. Lewis in "That Hideous Strength" where Merlin is in suspended animation beneath that wood, until he awakens to help thwart the schemes of an organization called the National Institute for Co-ordinated Experiments (with the ironic acronym of NICE), who claim to be wishing to use scientific research to improve life in Great Britain but are really out to take over the world; Lewis and Roger Lancelyn Green were friends (it's partly because of Green that Lewis completed "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" and got it published, though that's a story for another time), so presumably Lewis gave Green permission to include Bragdon Wood in his book. I doubt, however, that Disney will attempt the same. (We know from Greg Weisman that Arthur would be also visiting Tintagel and Stonehenge - both of which have strong ties to Merlin - and the South Pole - which doesn't, but which did give me the vision when I first read about that of Griff saying to Arthur "No, I don't think these penguins will be able to help us find Merlin".)

One feature which we know "Pendragon" would have had would be information about the role that gargoyles played during King Arthur's original reign, and I'm eager to learn more about that. I do have a few speculations, though. For a start, one of the early pieces of writing about King Arthur, the "Annales Cambriae", mentions that at the Battle of Badon (Arthur's main victory over the invading Saxons), Arthur bore the Cross (presumably a piece of the True Cross) on his shoulders for three days and three nights. Assuming that the Battle of Badon itself took place for a period of three days and three nights, as the context suggests, gargoyles could have participated in the battle on Arthur's side during the three nights. (The Battle of Badon was described elsewhere as a siege - which offers the possibility that the Badon of the Gargoyles Universe was another fortress like Castle Wyvern protected by gargoyles.) More recently, Malory described how Arthur fought a major battle in the early part of his reign against a coalition of eleven kings who were extremely sceptical about his "Sword in the Stone" feat, at the Forest of Bedegraine (according to Malory, now Sherwood Forest - I can't help thinking that whoever's in charge of Sherwood Forest's publicity department is passing up a tremendous opportunity to have it connected with two celebrated British legends rather than just one); it opened with a surprise night attack on the eleven kings' camp. I suspect that in the Gargoyles Universe, gargoyles allied with Arthur could have carried out the attack.

I've also mentioned the possibility (in my review/commentary on "M. I. A.") that gargoyles could have been behind the stories of Arthurian knights befriending lions, but one element I'm also curious about is their role in the wars that ended Arthur's reign. Originally, I had imagined Mordred playing up some uneasiness about gargoyles among Arthur's human subjects during his bid for power, and carrying out a few gargoyle massacres (of the "smash them in stone sleep" variety) - though clearly some gargoyles survived to be the ancestors of the London clan (which, we know, preserved that helpful poem about Excalibur that Griff knew by heart). More recently, however, recalling how the series had given some moral complexity to gargoyle misfortunes by presenting cases where the gargoyles and the humans friendly with them were the guilty parties (such as the Wyvern Massacre), I pictured an alternate scenario in which some gargoyles, fearing that Arthur might abandon them, decided to side with Mordred in his coup - with the likelihood that many of Arthur's human subjects afterwards viewed it as proof that gargoyles were evil and untrustworthy, and that it was time to start getting rid of them. (I wouldn't be surprised if we got a few looks at Mordred in flashback in "Pendragon" - especially since we know how interested Greg Weisman is in bastards. Certainly I think that Arthur would find Goliath's troubles with Thailog familiar....)

Dynamite Comics, if you're reading this, I hope you'll consider doing the "Pendragon" spin-off once you're done with Demona's.

FAVORITE LINES.

KING ARTHUR (seeing Griff): A gargoyle. For a moment I thought I was in danger.

GRIFF: And what makes you think you're not?


GRIFF: I'm called Griff. Who are you?

KING ARTHUR: I am Arthur Pendragon, King of Britain.

GRIFF: Uh-huh. And I'm the Queen Mum.

Todd Jensen

Third!

I was thinking about what Todd wrote last week about his dislike of AI in fiction immediately going evil. One depiction of AI turning evil that I really like came from Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and their take on Ultron. Unlike in the comics where Ultron went evil the moment he was switched on, this version began as a series of drones meant to keep the peace in Ant-Man's prison for mutates, The Big House. Later on in the series when the future warlord Kang the Conqueror comes to conquer Earth Ant-Man reluctantly agrees to use Ultron to combat his armies; first by upgrading their stun laser into something more potent and then teaching them the concept of violence.

Kang is ultimately beaten when the Avengers have Ultron interface with Kang's own computer and turn his own technology against him. But following this encounter and Ultron's previous programming about peace and order, it comes to a simple conclusion: peace will never exist as long as humans do and therefore tries to eliminate all life on the planet. While the other heroes are quick to reason away his turn from his interfacing with Kang's computer, Ant-Man explains that Ultron's intelligence was based on his brain patterns and despite his pacifism, Ultron's final solution protocols had to come from somewhere and that's almost certainly from the dark recessions of his mind.

All this is a good reminder that artificial intelligence doesn't just develop in a vacuum and it's the little touches of human programming that shapes it. Like search engines or chatbots that were found to have political leanings.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Second!
Matt
"Human problems become gargoyle problems..."

First.
Todd Jensen