Thanks Todd, I look forward to the next comic series.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Mar 15, 2025 5:36:09 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Beware the Ides of March.

MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments; it was a good analysis of "Bad Guys" (including the comparison to "Young Justice"; I'd noticed the parallel between the Illuminati and the Light, but hadn't considered the ones between the Redemption Squad and the leads in "Young Justice").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Mar 15, 2025 8:59:29 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

And this marks the end of the Bad Guys story arc, for now. It's easy to see the influence this series had on other pieces of Greg's works: the covert, black ops style of storytelling, the motley group with each of them having a unique set of skills, it's all a precursor for the early story of Young Justice. Heck, even their foes the Illuminati brings to mind the central antagonist, The Light.

Falstaff's declaration that the Illuminati's goals are to save the world rather than rule it also brings to mind the Light's plan of advancing humanity to the point where they will be the dominant power in the cosmos, not to mention the canon-in-training of the Illuminati making a deal with the Space-Spawn brings to mind the number of deals the Light made with extraterrestrials in the second season. I've mentioned before that Greg's done a lot of repurposing of ideas for different stories, with the benefit of hindsight, it's pretty clear to see.

One thing I like about "Bad Guys" is the potential it offers. The covert team traveling around the world battling a shadowy cabal and other threats offers a lot of world building potential. Yes, it's more action-oriented than some of the main stories in the Gargoyle-verse but it never loses the strength of characters and their interactions. Unlike the main story this group isn't a clan and family, they're rougher around the edges and getting involved in dirty business. But at the same time they are trying to better themselves (most of them anyway), and trying to do good in the world. Hunter and Dingo dropping their usual bickering for a moment near the end is a good indication that they're succeeding in some ways.

With the revelation that Monsieur Le Maire is in fact Jean Valjean (one of the most famous redemption stories in literature), the Redemption Squad takes a whole other meaning. Valjean may not like the Director's methods but if the novel is any indication, he knows just how difficult and arduous the road to redemption is.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Mar 15, 2025 1:56:34 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Reread Chapter Six, "Losers", of "Bad Guys" today.

It made a great finale to the mini-series. The Director finally appears (sort of - he's half-hidden in shadow, naturally), and even discusses his plans for the Redemption Squad with a not-quite approving Monsieur Le Maire (whom we'll later fully meet in "Gargoyles Quest"). And the Redemption Squad have their big show-down with Falstaff and his gang.

Falstaff argues that the Illuminati are out, not to take over the world, but to save it, and the glimpse we got at its leadership at the end of the Stone of Destiny story in "Clan-Building" fits in with that. We had a strong hint that Peredur's plans for the Illuminati were to prepare for King Arthur's return - not expecting him to be awakened on Avalon two hundred years early. (It doesn't help their case, admittedly, that when the emergency for which Arthur was supposed to return took place - admittedly, according to canon-in-training at this point - the Illuminati would side with the very threat they were supposed to be helping Arthur do battle against - though that's still a long way in the future at this point.) Of course, they've adopted very questionable methods, questionable enough for another secret organization to be setting out to stop them (and which gives particular force to Monsieur Le Maire's concerns that they not wind up going down the same path as the Illuminati).

Fiona Canmore from "The Last" enters canon in this chapter, speaking to her niece and saying "The Hunt is but a vignette in a much bigger tapestry" (which does seem almost the way Greg Weisman's described the construction of "Gargoyles" at times). (I wonder whether Fiona's had any involvement in the setting up of the Quarrymen.) And Thailog gets a cameo - with some involvement with Fang (in an echo back to "The Reckoning"), who actually winds up making a helpful contribution to the Redemption Squad.

We also get out first look at the Illuminati's impressive treasury (though with no hint here of who the real guardian is). One item in it that particularly grabbed my attention was a knight's shield with a swan on it; according to Roger Lancelyn Green (one of Greg Weisman's major sources, as I mentioned last week), Percival and Blanchefleur (who are the leaders of the Illuminati in the Gargoyles Universe) were the parents of "Loherangrin the Swan Knight" (better known by the Wagnerian version of his name, Lohengrin). However, we already know that the shield was Karine Charlebois's idea rather than Greg Weisman, so it might not be an allusion to that.

That treasure also led to one of my favorite Dingo moments, when he argues against destroying Eastcheap because of the artistic and historical significance of so many of the Illuminati's treasures. It reminded me of Hudson and Broadway urging Goliath not to burn the Scrolls of Merlin.

And the ending with Yama's musings on redemption - cut too short to Fang's very loud exasperation - is an effective one (if feeling a bit ominous for the fate of the Redemption Squad - though, based on what we know of Greg Weisman's plans for the Gargoyles Universe, I doubt we need to worry about them).

Matrix eats the silverware at the dinner table.

A LITTLE ABOUT FALSTAFF'S GANG: Falstaff's gang are all named after associates of Falstaff in Shakespeare.

Shakespeare's Mistress Quickly appeared in "Henry IV Parts One and Two" and "Henry V" as the hostess of the Boar's Head Tavern in Eastcheap (yes, that's where the name of Falstaff's island/submarine comes from); in "Henry V", she marries Pistol and reports Falstaff's death with the famous description of him going to "Arthur's bosom" (generally considered to be a slip-up to "Abraham's bosom", but appropriate here in light of the Illuminati's links to King Arthur). She also appears in "The Merry Wives of Windsor", though as a servant to a Dr. Caius instead, and feeling little more than a namesake. ("The Merry Wives of Windsor", while making use of Falstaff and his associates, handles them differently enough from the "Henry IV" plays that I once joked they were the Falstaffian version of "The Goliath Chronicles". Actually, that's not quite accurate; "The Merry Wives of Windsor" was written by Shakespeare as well, and the differences in characterization seem to stem from it being in a different genre; where the "Henry IV" plays were historical dramas in which Falstaff served, in part, as a contrast to the nobility engaged in a power struggle over the rule of England, "The Merry Wives of Windsor" was a domestic comedy with Falstaff being a simple rogue outwitted by the title characters.)

Mistress Doll, more fully known as Doll Tearsheet, appeared in "Henry IV Part Two" as a woman of loose morals who has dinner with Falstaff at one point.

Bardolph appeared in all four of the "Falstaff plays", "Henry IV Parts One and Two", "Henry V", and "The Merry Wives of Windsor". He was depicted throughout as having a fiery complexion that led to several jokes about it from Falstaff, such as "thou are our admiral, thou bearest the lantern in the poop, - but 'tis in the nose of thee; thou art the Knight of the Burning Lamp". Hence the Bardolph of "Bad Guys" having for his specialty fire-breathing. (All the other members of Falstaff's gang draw their talents from their names - running quickly for Mistress Quickly, skill with a gun for Pistol, etc.)

Points' Shakespearean original was actually called "Poins" (though my Oxford University Press copy of Shakespeare's complete works gives his name as "Pointz"); the change was undoubtedly made to call attention to *his* specialty, swordsmanship. Poins appeared in "Henry IV Parts One and Two" as the closest member of Falstaff's gang (aside from Falstaff himself) to Prince Hal; the two of them even team up in a couple of schemes, such as robbing Falstaff after he robs the travelers at Gadshill. (Poins also gets a mention in "The Merry Wives of Windsor", but doesn't appear on stage in it.) Poins drops out of the story after he and Prince Hal eavesdrop on Falstaff's dinner with Mistress Doll, disguised as servants; presumably Prince Hal breaks with him as well as with Falstaff and his crew after becoming king, but nothing further is said about him.

Pistol was introduced in "Henry IV Part Two" as Falstaff's "ancient" or standard-bearer, and reappears in "The Merry Wives of Windsor" and "Henry V". He's noted for being a loudmouth and braggart, spouting bombastic speeches (often parodies of the work of Shakespeare's fellow playwright Christopher Marlowe). This contrasts dramatically with the Pistol of "Bad Guys" who speaks only once in the two chapters in which he appears, and is clearly a very efficient man (note that he's the one member of Falstaff's gang whom the Redemption Squad didn't succeed in taking down - and that's definitely an accomplishment).

FAVORITE LINES.

THE DIRECTOR: If this group is as tough as advertised, they can handle a little trouble.

DOLORES: And if not?

THE DIRECTOR: That's their problem. They knew the job was hazardous when we forced them into it.


FALSTAFF: Motley crews on both sides.


HUNTER: Let's not get too cozy yet.

FALSTAFF: This one's got quite the stick up her - .

DINGO: You have no idea.

FALSTAFF: Now, Mistress Hunter, why so put out? When you're the one who blew up my 'bots. My damn expensive 'bots, by the way.

DINGO: To be fair, you started it... blew up our chopper.

FALSTAFF: You were trespassing!

DINGO: And who taught me to do that?

{Falstaff roars with laughter.}

HUNTER: Point is, we won't be breaking bread anytime soon.

FANG: Uh... we won't?


DINGO: So, I hear you're taking over the world.

MATRIX: We tried that with geometry.


YAMA (seeing Thailog on the monitor screen): Goliath? Someone fix the colors!


THAILOG: Fang knows me. And can vouch for me.

FANG: Sure. Thailog's my kinda gargoyle.


DINGO: You expect me to believe you've given up the life, you old fat fox?

FALSTAFF: That's just it. When you've got the world's biggest henhouse, who else could possibly guard it,,, except an old fat fox?

{He shows Dingo the Illuminati's vast treasure hoard.}


YAMA: The gargoyle I spoke to asked for Fang's endorsement, which Fang provided. But we don't trust fang, and Fang knows it!

FANG: Happy to help.


MATRIX: Then our original mission still serves law and order?

DINGO: Yes, Mr. One-Track-Mind.


MATRIX: Then we must disable our opponents.

MISTRESS QUICKLY (running at him): Easier said than done.

MATRIX: Inaccurate. Your statement....

MISTRESS QUICKLY (slipping on the ice-like material produced by Matrix): Whoa!

MATRIX: Lacks traction.


HUNTER: So Falstaff gets away - with the island and its treasure!

FANG: Your problem, sweets, is unrealistic expectations. We survived. The rest is gravy.

YAMA: Fang is an idiot, but he is more right than wrong.

DINGO AND HUNTER: He is?

FANG: I am?

YAMA: Which of us does not seek redemption for past sins?

MATRIX: I seek law and order.

YAMA (smiling for once): Acknowledged. But for the rest of us, redemption will not come easily, nor does it come with success. Results are immaterial. The path is long, and only by striving will we find our way.

DINGO: Then how will we know when we've arrived?

YAMA: The answer is obvious. You'll know when -

{The sun rises and he turns to stone, mid-sentence.}

FANG: Ah, crap! Have I mentioned how much I hate gargoyles? Self-important, stuck-up, rasm-frasm, stone-sucking gargoyles!

DINGO: Uh, Hunter, someone is gonna come lookin' for us out here, right? Right?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Mar 14, 2025 9:59:56 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

"Strangled" is a bit of an eye-opener narratively speaking. The revelation that the Redemption Squad is going against the Illuminati shows that there are other forces out there that are not only aware of its existence but are combatting them too. It brings to mind shadow warfare and a topic that Greg will explore in other media. It also reveals just how Dingo got his start as a criminal and sadly it came by a supposed close friend guiding him with a bloodstained hand. One thing that always stood out to me is during the flashbacks the younger Oldcastle resembles an old friend of my family, like to an uncanny degree.

Nice to bring up the various references both historical and Shakespearian. I have to admit when I see the name Monmouth my mind immediately goes to James Scott and his ill-fated rebellion. Falstaff isn't a character I'm as knowledgeable about as other characters from the Bard's selection (I'm far more familiar with his Marvel Comics counterpart Volstagg). Interestingly though it's his title "King of Thieves" that brings to mind another Shakespeare character, Autolycus the rogue, thief and peddler from The Winter's Tale. I bring this up because Autolycus in Greek myth was the most famous of thieves and robbers in all of Greece, having inherited his father Hermes tricks. And he'd pass that same tricky mind to his grandson, Odysseus.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Mar 14, 2025 3:41:39 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Just finished listening to the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Walkabout". I was amused by the timing; it comes out just as I was doing my reviews of "Bad Guys" - and the podcast even has Karine Charlebois as one of the guests!

Reread Chapter Five of "Bad Guys" itself, "Strangled". Here the story catches up with the fight with the flying robots that was opening each chapter, and we find out what their mission was about - going up against the Illuminati. And particularly against Falstaff.

The closing two chapters were my favorite part of "Bad Guys" because of their adaptation of one of Shakespeare's big-name characters, and it recently struck me that it was particularly appropriate for this spin-off. Prince Hal's break with Falstaff after he becomes King as Henry V in Shakespeare's plays is a classic case in literature of redemption (admittedly, his "I know you all" speech at the end of Act I, Scene ii of "Henry IV Part One" suggests that the redemption might be staged - an interpretation, of course, that does not apply to his modern-day counterpart in the form of Dingo) - so what more appropriate location for Falstaff?

(I might add that I remember, when I first read the solicitation for this chapter, suspecting from the start that this old friend of Dingo's was Falstaff - the combination of Greg mentioning that there'd be an antagonist by that name in "Bad Guys", and what Dingo's original name had already been revealed to be. And then, just a few days after that solicitation was announced, the Sinister Six episode of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" first aired, and in it, Aunt May and Anna Watson were going to a performance of "The Merry Wives of Windsor" and even talking about the actor playing Falstaff; another case of appropriate timing! For that matter, in Season Two of "The Spectacular Spider-Man", during the "Shakespeare auditions" scene, Harry Osborne delivered the "Rejection of Falstaff" speech from "Henry IV Part Two", which I thought matched his own story in the series extremely well - it was my favorite "serious speech" in the sequence.)

We get in some flashbacks for the young Harry Monmouth (as he was then) with John Oldcastle (as Falstaff was called then) - complete with the dark revelation on the last page of what really happened to Mariah (probably up there with Tasha's fate in the previous chapter), leading in to their reunion (and Falstaff absolutely has to announce his new identity in black-letter Gothic!). Plus we meet his gang (who'll be more fully introduced to in the next chapter).

A LITTLE ABOUT FALSTAFF: I don't think that most of us would have thought of comparing Falstaff to Merlin, but they did have one thing in common: they were formed from a union of two characters, one of whom supplied the basic story, the other the name. In my review of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", I discussed that origin for Merlin (a union of the boy prophet Ambrosius in the "History of the Britons" and the fight between the red and white dragons with the mad hermit/prophet Myrddin); Shakespeare did something similar with Falstaff.

The first component of Shakespeare's celebrated fat old knight was Sir John Oldcastle, a friend to Henry V during his Prince of Wales days who later fell out with him. Oldcastle had joined the Lollards, a sort of early Protestant movement, predating Martin Luther, who stood for such things as translating the Bible into English and curbing the power of the Church. He clashed with King Henry as a result, rebelled against him, only to be defeated, captured, and executed for treason and heresy.

In Elizabethan times, someone wrote a play about Henry V's life called "The Famous Victories of Henry the Fifth" which drew on a popular legend around Henry, that as Prince of Wales, he was a wild young man, but when he became king, he sobered up, turned into a serious and responsible ruler, and broke with his lawless boon companions. (This is just legend; in actual history, Henry V during his Prince of Wales days was a hard-working young man. For those interested in his historical life and career, I highly recommend the recently published "Henry V" by Dan Jones.) One of the wild companions whom the newly-crowned Prince Hal/King Henry breaks with was named Oldcastle. The play depicted him as just one of the prince's crowd, no more prominent than the others.

Shakespeare, when he wrote "Henry IV Part One", drew on "The Famous Victories", but beefed up Oldcastle's role and turned him into the familiar disreputable but extremely funny knight. He soon had to rename the character, though; reportedly, Oldcastle's descendants (despite his execution, prominent figures in the government of Elizabethan England) were not happy about their ancestor depicted in that way. So Shakespeare picked a new name for him, Falstaff, after another historical figure from the period, Sir John Fastolf.

Fastolf was a prominent leader in the English armies during the later part of the Hundred Years' War, the phase when Joan of Arc appeared. He was a cautious, prudent man, and would retreat if the evidence indicated that a clash with the French would only get his forces defeated without accomplishing anything useful; this stance was misinterpreted by some as cowardice, however, leading to Fastolf even being confronted by his superiors and at one point, temporarily stripped of some of his honors (such as his membership in the Order of the Garter). He was soon restored to those honors, and was a highly respected landowner (with close ties to the Pastons, a family who wrote a set of famous letters during the Wars of the Roses that have been valued by historians as a major look at life in England during this period). Yet his caution doesn't seem to have gone down well even afterwards, and in "Henry VI Part One", which Shakespeare partly wrote, he was featured in a small role as a cowardly knight (though straightforwardly so, without the comedy attending upon Falstaff's display of that same trait) in contrast to the more redoubtable (and perhaps also reckless and foolhardy) English military leaders from the period such as Lord Talbot (who has one of the lead roles in the play). So Shakespeare had some familiarity with Fastolf and his reputation (undeserved) for cowardice, and evidently drew on it when supplying a new name for Oldcastle - changing it to "Falstaff" (spelling was rather fluid back then). He did keep one hint of the "first-draft" name; in "Henry IV Part One", Prince Hal calls Falstaff "my old lad of the castle". In the epilogue to "Henry IV Part Two", when it's talking about Shakespeare's plans for "Henry V" as a follow-up, it says "where, for any thing I know, Falstaff shall die of a sweat, unless already a' be kill'd with your hard opinions; for Oldcastle died a martyr, and this is not the man." One of Shakespeare's rival playwrights came out with a play about the historical John Oldcastle (which was falsely attributed to Shakespeare at one point), that opened with a prologue stressing that the real Oldcastle was very different from Falstaff.

(And all of this makes clear why the Falstaff of "Gargoyles" was called "John Oldcastle" in those flashback scenes.)

Of course, Dingo's original name as "Harry Monmouth" is an allusion to Prince Hal, who also went by that name in Shakespeare (so called because he was born in the town of Monmouth - the same Monmouth that produced Geoffrey of Monmouth, one of the major writers on King Arthur in medieval times).

I'll have more to say about Falstaff's gang and their Shakespearean originals when I get to Chapter Six.

FAVORITE LINES.

DINGO (looking up at the Illuminati symbol carved on the wall): Guess we came to the right secret lair.


DINGO: Pistol?

HUNTER: Thank you, Captain Obvious.

DINGO: Not his guns! Him!


DINGO: John!

FALSTAFF: Aye, Harry, but no one's called me John Oldcastle in years. I'm Falstaff now. Falstaff, King of Thieves!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Mar 13, 2025 9:56:27 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Another good Voices from the Eyrie podcast, on "Walkabout."

[SPOILER]
Given all the talk of theremins this episode, I'll mention that there's also a theremin (or maybe a digital approximation) in the Darkwing Duck theme song, on the second verse (beginning with, "Cloud of smoke and he appears..."). Also, anyone who's been watching this season of 'Severance' has seen a theremin in action!

When Karine and the rest were joking about the idea of an A.I. deciding that humanity is beyond hope and the world needs to be completely obliterated to start from scratch, it occurred to me that the concept of this episode is actually very biblical. Matrix, of course, in his own way comes to a very similar conclusion to what God decides in the Genesis Flood Narrative (which is of course inspired by much earlier mythological sources).

I'm glad Greg brought up the idea of the Dreamtime being not only a time period, but also a kind of "Everywhen" in aboriginal tradition. It's a very nuanced, complex subject, and I certainly think hiring scholars knowledgeable in the tradition is necessary for future stories (I've read a bunch on it, and still have trouble wrapping my head around the various concepts). But I do think that what the episode portrays is--while extremely simplistic and reductive--not necessarily completely mutually exclusive with the actual myths.

Every time I hear about these 3D plans for the show, it sounds like a terrible gimmicky idea and I'm glad it never happened. However, I do remember that Disney Adventures tended to do an annual issue with 3D comics. I guess they could have tied that in with the Gargoyles airing so that the 3D glasses would come with the magazine. Of course, the problem is, not every viewer had a subscription to Disney Adventures or TV Guide or any other magazine, and having to buy something to enjoy a free-over-the-air program is just obnoxious and off-putting.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Mar 13, 2025 9:49:53 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

And this is where we get into some of the proper meat of the "Bad Guys" story arc. I mentioned before the odd coincidence of Dingo's turn towards heroism in the same year that Marvel premiered their comic The Thunderbolts, a team of supervillains masquerading as heroes, much like the Pack used to do. One interesting detail was near the end of the original story several of the members took a liking to playing hero and actually turned over a new leaf, and they've remained true heroes as of this writing. Other writers have given their own spin on the Thunderbolts over the years. When Hawkeye and Luke Cage were leading the team there were efforts to reform supervillains. While written by Garth Ennis it was mostly made up of anti-heroes who engaged in black ops work that other heroes couldn't or weren't willing to engage in.

On the other side of things is DC's Task Force X, the Suicide Squad. They're a group of incarcerated supervillains sent out to do black ops work for the United States government with the carrot of time shaved off their sentence for completed missions. While the turnover rate is high, it's almost always made up of unrepentant supervillains or career criminals who get sent in to take out threats worse than themselves (usually).

Thematically, the Redemption Squad is somewhere in the middle of the two groups, there's the effort to truly become better for most of them but also the unsavory missions and coercive methods to recruit the members. Plus they're first proper mission is against someone worse than they are. Sevarius is probably one of the most vile characters in the series and we get to see just how terrible he can be once the story doesn't have Disney censors watching over things. He might not have been the one to kill Tasha, but the story nonetheless frames him as the one who murdered her. It's a bleak story and not even Fang's usual sense of humor can distract from that. This also makes his addition something of a game changer, he has a certain raw power most of the squad doesn't have but he was party to a serious plot against New York and no real desire at redemption.

The Suicide Squad and the Thunderbolts have had to deal with token evil characters before and they more often than not bring nothing but trouble. Fang...that remains to be seen.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Mar 13, 2025 3:49:47 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Thanks as always, Todd. There was a pretty good discussion of "Louse" at the last Convergence, and despite the darkness, it's another reason I'm looking forward to actually get the "Bad Guys" series in another...well, however long it is.

The Cloisters was literally the first place I visited in New York as a tourist (on a group trip with a bunch of other sword geeks; there was a special exhibit in the main Met we'd made pilgrimage to) and in fact it was also my second stop just a couple of weeks ago on a daytrip. (The first stop that day was the New York Transit Museum, for what that's worth, and it being in a sort of abandoned subway tunnel was an extra treat in this context.) The first place I visited, ever, in New York was in the Bronx (Morris Park, if I'm reading the map right this time), but that doesn't quite count.

Closer to home, I agree with Matt Fedora that you probably get used to the tourist attractions, perhaps having visited them two or three times in grade school and not really wanting to visit again after that, especially not with the tourist traffic. But they are useful shortcuts for establishing where the action is happening. (Side note: I'd first heard about Emperor Norton in one of Shaenon Garrity's comics, where I think she'd worked him in as a zombie, and that was not a bad way at all to find out about him.)
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 9:14:13 pm EDT from 108.69.72.60

Reread Chapter Four, "Louse", of "Bad Guys" today.

In some ways, this chapter is even darker than "Metamorphosis" in its look at Sevarius's mutating people - and that takes a lot of effort. (I remember much discussion about that when I posted my review of that episode a few months ago.) For a start, Severius has now mutated children. The revelation is given a touch of humor in the disagreement over what to call the kind of bug Benny was mutated into, but it's still unsettling.

(I'll confess that I most often call that kind of bug a wood-louse myself, even if it means agreeing with Sevarius on something. When I was a boy, we spent a few years in England, and our back garden had a lot of wood-lice. I liked to watch them, and often even touch them and watch them roll up in balls (which feels a bit different, of course, after we see Benny doing just that - and what led to him doing that).)

Which brings me to the other element that makes this chapter even darker than "Metamorphosis": Tasha's suicide. I think we all definitely found it a chilling moment.

The "teaser" for this chapter, I recall, revealed at the end of the previous one, mentioned the Redemption Squad having to thwart a "mass-mutation" scheme of Sevarius's, and since Chapter Three had established (when Dingo was watching Celebrity Hockey) that the story was taking place on New Year's Eve, I wondered whether the scheme would be targeting the crowd gathered in Times Square to watch the ball drop. But that seemed too cliched a villainous scheme - until I remembered that Sevarius was behind it; of course he'd eagerly go for something that cliched - and he did. Complete with seeing to it that the mutation virus would be released at exactly midnight - to Fang's utter exasperation.

Despite the grim moments above, there are some fun elements in this chapter, such as the running gag of Dingo repeating himself every time he gets zapped by Fang, and Yama, finding out that the not-so-good doctor intends to use "human mutagen" on him, wonders which human supplied it, to Sevarius's amusement.

Sevarius recognizes Hunter from their meeting at Nightstone Unlimited back in "Hunter's Moon Part Two": a good touch.

I've wondered whether Thug's Mutate form was intended as a reference or fulfillment to the mention of the urban myths about alligators in New York's sewers, in both "The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Hunter's Moon Part One"; we all know what happens whenever you casually refer to a myth or legend in "Gargoyles".

And Fang becomes a new member of the Redemption Squad, even though nobody seems that keen on having him on it - not to mention that he's the one member who doesn't show any interest in changing for the better or redemption. Which will make things all the livelier....

FAVORITE LINES.

HUNTER: What is that thing? A gar -

YAMA: No. The scent is wrong. He reeks of fish, humanity, and ozone.


MATRIX: Dingo, we have searched these tunnels for hours.

DINGO: I know.

MATRIX: And found nothing.

DINGO: I know.

MATRIX: Had we waited for Hunter and Yama, probability is high we would already have achieved law and order.

DINGO: I know.

MATRIX: Then perhaps you should radio her -

DINGO: No!

MATRIX: Then I will take matters into my own nanobots.


SEVARIUS: This is Tasha... and little Benny....

BENNY: I'm a roly-poly bug.

SEVARIUS: Big sister Erin....

ERIN: You're a pill-bug.

SEVARIUS: ... and the reliable Thug.

BENNY: Roly-poly.

ERIN: Pill.

SEVARIUS: Technically, he's a woodlouse.


SEVARIUS: My friends here represent my first few cautious steps.

HUNTER: Cautious?


TASHA: Why are you doing this to us?

SEVARIUS: For science, which as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money, and I do love the drama!


SEVARIUS (to Yama): And don't you feel left out. I'm also curious to see what human mutagen does to gargoyles... aren't you?

YAMA: Which human?

SEVARIUS: "Which human?" Oh, I like you.


HUNTER: Nice of you to show up.

DINGO: Yes, Dingo. Thanks for saving me from a face worse than death.


MARGOT: This is your romantic way to spend New Year's Eve, packed like sardines in a sub-zero freezer?

BRENDAN: Oh, give it a rest, Margot.


DINGO: All right, pull over, misfit!

FANG (zapping him): That's Mutate to you, bub!

DINGO: All right, pull over, misfit! Hey, where'd he go?


FANG (thinking): Doc and his damn drama! He just had to release the virus exactly at midnight... couldn't give me a button to press or something.


DINGO: It's okay, Yama, we got him!

{Fang zaps Dingo.}

DINGO: It's okay, Yama, we got him! What keeps happening?


DINGO: Still can't believe you dumped me.

MATRIX: I assumed you did not want to be mutated, and I calculated Hunter could save you.

HUNTER: I had to think about it.


DINGO: Yama, he's not worth it!

FANG: I'm not! I'm really not!


FANG (showing off his new uniform): Hey, pal, guess who just made the team?

{Yama growls, his eyes glowing in anger.}
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 8:00:31 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

I did visit the Cloisters as part of a school art project when Gargoyles was still on the air. The assignment was to go to any museum and then create something inspired by the experience. I chose the Cloisters because of "Temptation," so it was a good instance of "two birds with one stone." I haven't been back since though, and I do keep meaning to.

Along the same lines, of "tourist destinations," I should mention (since we're discussing "Estranged") that I did make it a point to visit the catacombs a few years ago when I was in Paris, and Christopher Jones's haunting art in this issue played no small part in my decision. While I didn't encounter any demonic gargoyles or have any skulls fall on me, it was still a very memorable experience that I recommend.

It should be noted that the catacombs aren't actually near Notre Dame - Greg took some artistic license there. That would have been a brisk 3-4 mile jog for the Canmores, as the gargoyle flies (glides). Notre Dame does have a fascinating crypt/museum where visitors can see remnants of an Ancient Roman settlement, but no piles of skulls, sadly. (I should note, I visited before the fire, so I'm not sure what Notre Dame is like now...I know they made further underground discoveries during the repairs process.)
Craig
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 10:26:39 am EDT from 69.118.30.106

CRAIG> That's the truth.

I've never been to the Cloisters. I drive past them every time I leave New York City, and I've been saying "I'd love to see them, maybe next time" for over twenty years now.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 10:14:59 am EDT from 67.189.200.184

Many NYers I know have either never been to the Statue of Liberty, or have only gone because an out-of-town friend was visiting. I was only on Liberty Island once when I was very young and my family took me. Of course, I've seen the statue many times from a distance, and it's easy to just take it for granted as part of the landscape.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 9:57:03 am EDT from 69.118.30.106

MATTHEW - Thanks for your thoughts on famous landmarks. I lived in St. Louis most of my life, but only visited the Gateway Arch a few times myself.

A couple of other cities with famous landmarks that appeared in "Gargoyles" which I forgot to mention were Washington D.C. with the White House (which was the actual setting for the events set in Washington), and Florence, with the cathedral with the Brunelleschi dome (from the flashback at the start of "Hunter's Moon Part Two").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 9:19:13 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Funny you should bring up the notion of famous landmarks, Todd. I've been a Nor Cal native all my life and can tell you that the number of times I've crossed the Golden Gate Bridge can be counted on one hand. While impressive the simple truth is that the Golden Gate is just too out of the way and inconvenient for most residents, the more practical is the Bay Bridge (that is to say the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge). Which incidentally was first conceived by "Emperor" Joshua Norton, the man truly was crazy like a fox.

I bring this up because it's fascinating to see such landmarks used in establishing shots like you said. For some I'll bet it's truly awe-inspiring but for locals I'm willing to bet it loses something after awhile. I can only imagine how the average Parisian feels about the Arc de Triomphe after living their most their lives. Probably just something to drive around while dealing with traffic.

The look into Robyn is a fascinating one. In a lot of media the token girl is often written as the grounded, sensible one meant to keep the more wild personalities of the men in the group in line. We saw some parts of that with her and her brothers: Jason was fiery and driven and now Jon's gone into fanaticism. But there's a nice moment when Jason asks her who she's soled her soul to and she can't answer. It's a nice reminder that while she might be the most grounded of this new group and the one calling the shots, someone else is holding her leash and it pains her to be part of this and to have to bottle up the pain of what's happening with her family.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Mar 12, 2025 2:01:31 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Reread Chapter Three of "Bad Guys", "Estranged", today.

I'd mentioned in my comments on Chapters One and Two of "Bad Guys" how Hunter/Robyn Canmore came across throughout as calm and in control throughout. She shows a bit of that in this chapter (such as when Dingo brings up that she's also wanted in Manhattan, for blowing up the clock tower), but we now get a look into her more vulnerable side beneath. particularly the trauma she got from Demona in her youth - and we end the chapter on that note. (It ties in with her depiction in "Hunter's Moon". Robyn was the most cool-headed of the Hunters, in contrast to Jason's pride and anger and Jon's hesitancy - particularly when her brothers are arguing about whether to attack the clock tower or not and she simply says that she'd rather get it over with tonight. Of course, we saw her more vulnerable side in Part Three as well - especially her alarm at how crazed and vindictive Jon's now become.)

And, fittingly, this is the chapter where we see her interact with both her brothers, Jason and Jon - and which now confirms that Jon Canmore and Castaway are the same person (and both Jason and Robyn now realize it). It leads to a great scene where Robyn tries to reach out to Jon, to no avail.

Castaway's ads for the Quarrymen, by the way, are particularly effective - the "are you feeling alone in a world that terrifies you?" makes the Quarrymen sound more like a charitable organization than like a hate group. He may be a fanatic, but he's a clever one - which makes him all the more dangerous.

One of the highlights of the meeting is when each asks the other "Who's backing you? I know it's not Canmore money." Greg Weisman had earlier mentioned that the Director and Duval were adversaries, and while I knew that it was canon-in-training and could change, after reading this scene, I hoped that he'd be keeping that notion, of a conflict between the two groups. After that exchange, the Illuminati and the Director's organization *have* to be done as opponents.

We find out that the Redemption Squad's headquarters are not only in Paris, but below the Eiffel Tower, a detail which amused me. (It does remind me of one feature I've noticed in visual storytelling, whether television and movies or comic books and graphic novels - whenever you're doing a scene in a city that has a world-famous landmark, that landmark will generally make an appearance, even if only in the establishing shots. Thus, if it's set in New York, you'll get at least a glimpse of the Statue of Liberty, in London, the Houses of Parliament (particularly the clock tower famously known as Big Ben - which is actually the bell inside), in St. Louis, the Gateway Arch, in San Francisco, the Golden Gate Bridge, in Rome, the Colosseum, in Seattle, the Space Needle, and so on. So naturally, the Eiffel Tower's bound to show up somewhere in scenes set in Paris.)

And we get a second Parisian landmark moments later when Dingo says he's certain that Hunter's not out sightseeing - and then we see her outside Notre Dame Cathedral. But she's definitely not sightseeing; she's there because it was the place where her father was killed years before. (And we get a flashback that takes the Canmore trio to the Paris Catacombs - adapted from a lost moment in the original script for "Hunter's Moon Part Three", that featured in the 2001 Gathering's radio play.)

The Redemption Squad's New York headquarters is the Casablanca Hotel, no doubt intended as a deliberate counter to the Hotel Cabal (and providing another homage to a famous movie - which, I recall, got a nod in "City of Stone Part One").

When Hunter was providing the team their briefing about Sevarius - I noted that his disguise from the end of Chapter Two was included in it, which gave me an idea. We now know that Shahrazad's part of the Director's organization - and she was in the Labyrinth when he got in to break Fang out and noticed him, watching him, in fact, in a way that suggested she knew something. I'd say it's a strong clue as to just how the Director's organization found out about Sevarius's disguise and much of his activities - that that panel in Chapter Two wasn't just about giving a popular new character a cameo.


FAVORITE LINES.

DINGO: Surprised you're so cheerful 'bout being back here.

HUNTER: Me? You're the wanted fugitive.

DINGO: Strewth, for felony burglary. But I did some checking. You blew up a police station!

{Flashback to Robyn Canmore opening fire on the clock tower.{

HUNTER: Your point being?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Mar 11, 2025 7:56:27 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Todd Jensen> Yeah it's like we discussed with Double Date wayback (Even the comics being old) in that even with the date details and outcome being spoiled, well it's another contrast between the comics and TGC (Save for The Journey). The comics since the Double Date have other threads and such explored rather than just the main attraction.

- We get an idea of how Castaway is operating on the public front until Goliath's trial ends. And both being demonstrated in a Halloween story.

- More information on the Illuminati. And that a gargoyle clone long out of the can is a member.

- The addition of Jeffrey revealing he knew Hudson is a gargoyle.

- Elisa revealing her relationship with the clan to Dr. Sato and I think it's still just canon-in-training, but Brendan pointing Sato to Goliath being in need of medical aide.

- Further Future Tense parallels occurring. Wondering if [SPOILER] Burbank will perish in a fight with Coyote down the line [/SPOILER].

- And mentioned already, but getting further examples of how humans perceive gargoyles to be wild animals than a sentient race.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Mar 11, 2025 6:43:45 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

"The Lost" is a great little feature into Yama, while he got a bit more characterization than several of the other Ishimura Clan members in "Bushido", it still wasn't very much because of episode length. I think this is also the first time we get a good look into gargoyle practice of banishment and the general rules for how someone can return. Yama's banishment makes for an interesting parallel with that of Coldstone's. Yama made a bad decision based misinformation and worked to undo that mistake, but still faced banishment for his part in the betrayal. Coldfire didn't know the full extent of Demona's plan but even after the reveal still didn't see a problem with it and doubled down on that betrayal. Yama may not return because he may never forgive himself for what he's done. Coldstone may never return because Coldfire may never forgive him for what he's done.

The reveal of Sevarius being their first proper opponent is an inspired choice, one that I'll detail further in the next chapter and once the arc concludes.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 11:55:50 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Matt > Ah yes, good point. I recall from Greg's ramble that was more a matter of necessity than a creative choice that he liked.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 10:02:08 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

Goliath had some inner thoughts in "M.I.A." as well.
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 9:56:51 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Re: the podcast. I'd just assumed that Greg meant Guatemala, and misspoke due to the somewhat similar-sounding names.

Re: "The Lost." As I mentioned, "The Lost" and "Estranged" brought me fully on board with Bad Guys. Yama and Hunter both make great impressions in "The Lost," as does Sora in her brief appearance (not to mention the terrific Sevarius reveal). That flashback to Yama's banishment is such a strong scene. So much done with just a few words and facial expressions. Kudos to Greg and Karine on what I think must be one of the strongest scenes in the comics.

One interesting thing to note is that "The Lost" is the first time in Gargoyles that we "hear" a character's internal thoughts, other than of course the anomalous film noir-esque "Revelations." Yama, Dingo, and Hunter all have caption boxes briefly expressing their internal monologue at points in the story. At the time, I found it a surprising departure. But Greg would continue to use this device increasingly in the remaining issues of Bad Guys, the final two issues of "Clan-Building," and of course extensively in "Here in Manhattan."
Craig
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 8:35:19 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

I'll have to listen again to that podcast, since I didn't even remember the part about visiting Nigeria.

Reread Chapter Two of "Bad Guys", "The Lost", today. The chapter that shows Yama joining the Redemption Squad - and does so very effectively.

Greg Weisman once mentioned his concern that, in the very early days of "Ask Greg", he'd given enough away that if "Gargoyles" ever did get a revival, the audience would be responding in a "Yawn, we already know that" manner - and this chapter, in a sense, does match those fears. The core events in it - Yama being banished from Ishimura, his recruitment by Hunter (complete with the threat to reveal his clan to the world if he doesn't accept), and Sevarius breaking out Fang from the Labyrinth - were all things he'd revealed in talks about "Bad Guys"; the one piece of fully new information was Fang's original pre-Mutate name. But at the same time, we got some very effective dramatic moments, which I think more than made up for that.

Yama's banishment, for a start, includes a great parting scene with Sora - particularly the moment where Yama refuses to let her accompany him in exile, but as he does so, we see an anguished expression on his face.

The scene where Hunter approaches Yama is also well-done - particularly the part where, after telling him that it will achieve "good on a large scale, large enough to redeem past sins", and he's seriously considering it, she follows that up with the threat (which Dingo sees coming with an uneasy expression on his face) - followed by, just fifteen seconds later, Yama (with all the evidence of a fierce fight in those fifteen seconds) is angrily pinning Hunter to the ground and holding a sword to her throat - while Hunter is still calmly acting in complete charge of the situation. (And she continues to display that sangfroid tone when Dingo discovers that they're headed back to New York, where he's a wanted man.) Though we'll see in the next chapter that there are limits to Hunter's "cool and collected" tone....

And we have Sevarius's big entrance - trust him to use the phrase "meet your maker". We also (as I noted above) find out Fang's original name, Fred Sykes. (Which put me in mind of Bill Sikes from "Oliver Twist".)

A few small moments of note in this chapter. First, we see Vinnie arriving in Japan, on his way to meet his new employer - and, naturally, getting lost. Trust that to happen to him.

Matrix pulls off one of his most bizarre moments with all those heads popping up from various rooftops and simultaneously delivering a report on Yama's movements.

In a follow-up to the indication that the monks in "Reunion" were speaking in Tibetan, we have the indication that the Ishimura gargoyles are speaking Japanese - and that Hunter was addressing Yama in Japanese until he reveals that he speaks English as well.

And Hunter comments about how gargoyles generally don't live alone "with one known exception". Trust her to bring that exception up, given the old hunt.

And Benny's t-shirt shows what looks like a gargoyle silhouette. (Note that Shari/Shahrazad gets a cameo in the Labyrinth, watching the disguised Sevarius with a knowing smile.)


FAVORITE LINES.

SORA: Ask me to go with you.

YAMA (with an anguished expression on his face): And ask you to share my shame? Bushido demands that I do not.

SORA: Then Kai was right. The judge we have chosen is rigid and unforgiving, and you are lost to me.


DINGO: A "tengu", she says. Could have mentioned "tengu"'s Japanese for "gargoyle"!


HUNTER (in Japanese): Let's not fight.

YAMA (in English): The decision lies with you, gaijin.

HUNTER: You speak English?

YAMA: Better than you speak Japanese. Your accent is atrocious.

DINGO: It's no better in English, mate. Her brogue grinds on you. Trust me.


HUNTER: We aim to do good on a large scale, large enough to redeem past sins.

YAMA (thinking): It is worth considering....

DINGO (thinking): Right, that's the carrot....

HUNTER: And if that's not reason enough....

DINGO (thinking): Here comes the stick.

{Fifteen seconds later....}

YAMA (holding his sword to Hunter's throat): You would threaten my clan, woman?

HUNTER: Not a threat. Incentive.

YAMA: Coercion. Honor lost cannot be regained under duress.

DINGO: Save your breath, mate. I've been tellin' her that for days.

HUNTER: I see your dilemma....

DINGO: Oh, now she sees it.

HUNTER: But doesn't bushido dictate that honor can be regained through honorable service?

YAMA: You would have me swear undying fealty to a gargoyle-hunter?

MATRIX: Is that a problem?


DINGO: So, mate, I'm Dingo. She's Hunter. The puddle's Matrix.


HUNTER: From there, New York City.

{Dingo spits out his drink - which, incidentally, also appears to be Nightstone coffee.}

DINGO: Maybe it slipped your evil little mind, but I'm a wanted fugitive in New York!

HUNTER: Then I'd advise you not to get caught.


FANG: Okay, pal. You got my attention. Name's Fang, and I -

BEARDED STRANGER: No, it's not. You believe your true name is lost. But there are still some who remember.

{He pulls off his fake beard and wig, revealing himself to be....}

SEVARIUS: Your name is Fred. Fred Sykes. And, Mr. Sykes, it's time to meet your maker!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 7:57:08 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Jurgan> I heard that too. I'm thinking he meant Rapa Nui. They did not visit Guam. (Or if they did, it isn't canon... yet!)
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 3:51:44 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Question: I’m listening to the latest Voices podcast, at one point Greg talks about different locations in the World Tour. “We went to Nigeria, we went to-“ and then said something that sounded like “Guam.” Did I hear that right? There wasn’t a Guam stop, was there?
Jurgan
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 3:47:46 pm EDT from 64.106.111.99

MATT - That's all right. What matters is that the room's got a post in it and isn't looking empty.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 8:58:40 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

First!

Sorry, Todd. : )
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Mon, Mar 10, 2025 8:32:59 am EDT from 204.184.178.1