These recent posts are making me glad I never saw "The Killing Joke".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Mar 23, 2025 9:18:14 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Not to mention being dumbfounded/annoyed when people expect more attention to detail in a more serious animated show even if the DCAU at best was episodic.

I'd say he was afraid that Gargoyles would encourage more expectations of animation storywise, but apparently he didn't even watch it when making that comment(?).
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Mar 23, 2025 4:05:39 am EDT from 68.119.3.1

Yes, that one was foremost in my mind when I typed my comment.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Mar 23, 2025 1:24:06 am EDT from 69.118.30.106

God, I shudder when I think of The Killing Joke.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Mar 23, 2025 1:11:00 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

"Some of his later work, particularly the direct-to-video movies over the past 15 years or so, have been...well, "uneven" is probably being charitable. A few of them have been downright offensive and made me question his judgment."

A certain scene from the Killing Joke movie just popped into my head.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 22, 2025 10:30:40 pm EDT from 97.182.106.160

More to say about this next week, but I'd like to recommend, for those who are looking forward to "Demona" #2, [SPOILER] Chapter Ten of "Crusades: The Epic History of the Wars for the Holy Lands" by Dan Jones, "Sigurd Jerusalemfarer". It gives a detailed account of the expedition that Demona will be a part of - including one passage, concerning its arrival at Constantinople, that might find an echo with the experiences of the gargoyles on that expedition. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Mar 22, 2025 8:41:01 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

While being human does have advantages, there's also the fact that they're Scots that got dropped into 20th Century New York without identification, references or any notion on how the world of electricity works. The gargoyles had the benefit of a benefactor or two easing them into the modern world, I can only imagine how Brooklyn would fare trying to teach them about crosswalks much less vehicles.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Mar 22, 2025 7:19:22 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Mary's no-nonsense attitude probably served her well during her early days on the Timedance--if for no other reason than having to deal with a younger Brooklyn, I suppose. Clearly it continues to serve her well in her work as a midwife, and it is a joy to behold it applied to Sevarius (and Brentwood). She's got a babe to deliver, and nobody's going to get in the way.

How much of that developed upon reaching the 20th century, and how much she brought with her, would be fun to see. I suppose that is yet another potential spinoff we won't get. I can't help the notion that New York may well have shuddered when she arrived, though, rather than the other way around. She's a tough 'un.

Historical note: lay midwifery, which is to say the practice of a midwife having no formal medical training, has been a thing for a long time in many parts of the world, of course. In the United States, there was a nascent movement to organize lay midwives by the early 1980s and probably having roots back into the late 1970s. (Source note: I was there for the mid-'80s part of it, anyway; we had a family business.) It would not at all be weird to find out that Mary had gotten linked into that. In fact, I think it would be weirder to find out she was not connected with it. For better and for worse, I cannot imagine Mary as we see her having a lot of patience with medical training, when she'd (I assume) been helping birth children long before any of the doctors showed up on the scene. One more reason for her not to have patience with Sevarius, perhaps.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Mar 22, 2025 6:49:20 pm EDT from 108.69.72.60

MATTHEW - It would also have been worth comparing Mary and FInella's culture shock with that of the Manhattan clan's back in Season One. The obvious difference is that Mary and Finella are humans, which would mean a lot less hiding from the general public. On the other hand, the gargoyles did have one advantage; their "profession" was, in some ways, easier to adjust to the modern world - simply protect the castle (only from commandos rather than Vikings), and later on, extend that to protecting Manhattan from the various criminals. Mary and Finella would have had more of a challenge in that department - though at least midwives are something that will always be needed. We don't yet know what Finella's line of work is in the modern world.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Mar 22, 2025 9:58:42 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

One thing I noticed in "Here In Manhattan" is that there's a distinct shift in the story as things switch from Maggie and Talon's new child and Thailog's plan to the gang war with Dino and the trial of Goliath. This is the sort of thing that could've been really messy narratively speaking so it's a good thing things were being set up and foreshadowed. Like Antoinette being a big mover in the Dracon family, Dominic's release and the general unease every time Dino is brought up.

I'm hoping to see the initial culture shock of Mary and Finella appearing in the 20th century. While we see that Mary has more or less adapted (and doesn't suffer megalomaniacal fools) there still had to be some adjustment for the two. And while Mary of course has still managed to work as a midwife, I can only imagine what she made of modern medicine.

This issue I remember confirmed more than a few theories I had about the TimeDancer group, more specifically that because of the circumstances of their situation Gnash was a lot closer to his parents than is normal for gargoyles and this new permanent residence as well as there's now a full on clan of grownups (and their attention with the egg) has been a bit of a strain for the young gargoyle. Obviously things will change but right now it's tough being the only kid in the family group.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Mar 22, 2025 2:08:37 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

We now have the solicitation for #2 of the upcoming Demona comic mini-series [SPOILER] and it's got more historical adventure in it. Sigurd Magnusson's voyage from Norway to Constantinople was an actual historical event - it was actually not just to Constantinople, but also a pilgrimage to the Holy Land, where he even teamed up with the Crusaders (this was shortly after the First Crusade), and Sigurd even got to take home a splinter of the True Cross. I've been reading up on it since I read the solicitation; it looks indeed as if one thing the "Demona" miniseries will have in common with "The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck" is adventures in history - though a different part of history. I'm certainly looking forward to it. (I've got to admit, though, that I'm a bit surprised Demona would go seafaring with a Viking king, when Vikings carried out the Wyvern Massacre. [/SPOILER]

I also reread Chapter Two of "Here in Manhattan", "Idyll or Nightmare".

This chapter definitely advances the kidnapping story - with not only Thailog capturing the pregnant Maggie, plus Mary, but the clan - thanks in part to a very angry Talon (who's clearly never forgiven Xanatos for turning him into a Mutate) - going after the wrong suspect. We also see some major development in the Dracon thread.

Dino Dracon is first mentioned by name here (in the previous chapter, he was known only as Tony's uncle), and we get a strong sense of trouble from him, even though he won't appear on-stage for two more chapters. It reminds me of how Gillecomgain as the Hunter was introduced in "City of Stone"; we have a couple of scenes where people mention the Hunter, before he appears on stage. (And Greg Weisman has mentioned that it was inspired by the comic strip "Steve Canyon", whose lead was introduced in a similar manner.)

We also see Dominic Dracon set free, posing as not quite stable (if with hints that it's an act). It reminded me of his role in the radio play crossover with "The Spectacular Spider-Man", where he was depicted as having genuinely lost his wits; I liked the touch in it of his continuing to look for those diamonds everywhere (it felt like a parallel of his former partner turned rival Mace Malone opening one door after another in the Hotel Cabal, convinced each time that the door he opened would lead him to freedom) - and certainly it'd be easy to convince people that the shock of discovering the diamonds he'd been searching for for decades had never been there, that it had all been a wild goose chase, had demolished his sanity.

We also get to meet Antoinette Dracon and get a sense of her; I'm now particularly amused by her dislike of being called "Toni", which parallels "Stop calling me Angie!" in "Turf", the most recent Dracon story before this one. (It rings out to me all the more because I'm currently working on a children's mystery/fantasy where the lead is a young girl who also dislikes being called by a shortened version of her first name. To add to that, while I haven't seen "Young Justice"'s third or fourth seasons, I did read up a bit on the part of Season Four involving a rival of Klarion's - the arc that included three very familiar-looking magical objects - and the pictures of the Child, as I recall she was called - her character design bore an uncanny similarity to my mental image of my main character.)

Back to the main story. I like the touch of the Manhattan gargoyles commenting on what they're missing during the daytime, while they're in stone sleep (apart from the ColdDuo, of course); one of the drawbacks of being involuntarily nocturnal.

I also liked the touch of Gnash grumbling over all the attention that Egwardo's getting (sibling rivalry?), and Hudson remarking about how different things were in his day (though we'll later on see - in "Gargoyles Quest" - that he does care a lot about that egg as well).

One of the highlights of this chapter was the revelation that the rookery had been moved to Manhattan along with the rest of the castle. Until I read it, I'd been under the impression (thanks to "Shadows of the Past", which made it look as if the rookery cave was still there) that the rookery had been left behind. I'd even conjured up an image, as a result, of the gargoyles building a new rookery for Egwardo - complete with Owen watching to one side and admitting that at least it's a lot less destructive than most of the changes to the castle they've gotten involved in. And now it turns out they've no need to do that - just place the egg in the old rookery and have Bronx and Fu-Dog standing guard duty over it.

Plus Angela's mention of Demona's plans for the rookery (I can't help thinking that, unless she knew for certain that there were other female gargoyles out there besides herself, it would have required her to do a lot of egg-laying). And Brooklyn getting in trouble with Katana when she finds out the real significance of the name "Egwardo". (I now have the image - based on a weird fanfic I once read many years ago that merged "The Simpsons" with "Gargoyles" - of Brooklyn begging Katana to let him back in the castle; he's uneasy about the way the pigeons are eyeing him.)

Other highlights of this part of the chapter are Broadway's wonder at getting to see a gargoyle egg once more - something that must have seemed, until recently, as impossible for him as Treebeard and his fellow Ents seeing Entings - and the group (including ColdFire - who's definitely getting more opportunity for exploration now) being eager to meet Elisa's new nephew or niece.

The midwife turning out to be Mary was a pleasant surprise. An additional lovely touch was her saying "Any friend of Brooklyn's, you know." Remember that in her first appearance, back in "Awakening Part One", she'd been hostile towards the trio, including Brooklyn, trying to drive them away from Tom and leading to the near-riot. How much that has changed - and in a way that offers a sense of hope.

I also liked the little touch of Benny asking if Goliath would take them flying (not the last time in the Dynamite comics that we'll see children hoping to take to the air with gargoyles).

Note that Shahrazad is rendered unconscious by Sevarius' knock-out gas alongside the rest of the non-gargoyle population of the Labyrinth, in order to preserve her cover - and even brings up that Mary's been kidnapped too, in a way to indicate that she's playing the innocent.

When the Clones report to Goliath and the other gargoyles about the aftermath of the attack, I noticed that the male Clones still haven't learned how to use verbs yet.

Returning to the Dracon thread for a bit - I suspect Tony just couldn't resist using a variant of the "losing his marbles" idiom for his grandfather.


FAVORITE LINES.

BORADWAY: Um, are you really naming the baby "Egg-wardo"?

KATANA: Why? Is there a problem with the name? Brooklyn, does it carry some significance in your tongue I am unaware of?

BROOKLYN: Uh, don't sweat it, Katana. It's just a place-holder 'til the kid hatches and we get a feel for her or him.

KATANA: It's a joke name, isn't it?

COLDFIRE: Goliath? Elisa sent word while you slept.

BROOKLYN: Phew! Saved by the messenger.

KATANA: Don't count on it.


TONY DRACON: Not much I can do from in here. But talk to Glasses... maybe together, he and our "sharp as ever" grandfather can figure out a way to contain Uncle D?

ANTOINETTE: And if they can't?

TONY DRACON: Then Manhattan burns, sister. Then Manhattan burns....


SEVARIUS: She's fine. Now get on with this.

MARY (grabbing him by his lab coat): What do ye think you're about here?

SEVARIUS: I... um... well... uh... Brentwood!

{Brentwood hisses.}

SEVARIUS: Ha! Now you'll remember your place!

MARY: Oh, please... did he think to intimidate me with this wee gargoyle? And who are ye, anyway? Why are ye dressed like a mad scientist?

SEVARIUS: I am Doctor Anton Sevarius!

BRENTWOOD (with Mary's hand over his mouth): Oof!

MARY: Ach, what kind of doctor does what you've done?

SEVARIUS: All my deliveries take place in a test tube! Traditional childbirth is not my area of expertise!

MARY: Common sense is nae your area of expertise either, apparently.

THAILOG (placing one hand on Mary's shoulder): Enough comic relief.


TALON (bursting into the castle, taking out the double doors): Xanatos!

XANATOS: Ah, Derek. Always good to see you. I understand you're expecting joyful news.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 8:07:53 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Thanks for the full quote, Matthew.

One little Bruce Timm anecdote, apropos of absolutely nothing at all. Paul Rugg (producer/writer/star of Freakazoid!) said that they were once recording Ricardo Montalban doing very silly narration over a series of old B&W clips, and Bruce Timm (who was working on Superman) happened to wander in. Rugg said he knew the material must be particularly funny because it was the only time he ever saw Bruce Timm laugh.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 3:18:16 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

Craig> I wasn't sure whether that was one thing or whether I was misremembering things or conflating it with other cases of Disney toning down or avoiding LGBTQ+ representation, either way price hikes were certainly the biggest factor.

The quote from Bruce Timm came from an interview from 1999 (alongside Glen Murakami) for an old website The Critical Eye. Here's the context of the quote:

Emru Townsend: Do you see any possibilities for other series that would be animated and yet a bit more serious? Serious doesn't have to be more grim, but just... like Batman was--where you can have action/adventure but have to not necessarily talk down. There was Invasion America, but that was kind of iffy. And Gargoyles was pretty good, but that got subverted toward the end.

Bruce Timm: Yeah, that whole premise of Gargoyles was kind of namby-pamby anyway, with all that Celtic fantasy crap.

While the interviewer certainly had a point with the third season, it's still fairly rude of Timm to say that. Especially in the context of 1999 when the DCAU's star was still on the rise. The rest of the interview is pretty much about Batman, the Justice League and difficulties in creating threats for characters with superpowers. As well as why he likes the original Batman series and how he got to delve into the mind of Batman.

And this highlights some of the problems with favoritism in writers and producers. It's no secret that Timm favors Batman over every other character in DC's universe and that's reflected in his work. Now I don't know if he just isn't a fan of fantasy elements, doesn't like ensemble casts, or is so hyper-focused on the Caped Crusader that anything that directs attention away from him earns his scorn. And honestly I don't care. Animation these days doesn't get a lot of support from studios themselves so a lot of creators have looked to solidarity amongst other animators and from the fans. Folks that don't want that can continue to sit alone and grumble.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 2:10:48 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

I can't recall if I've ever been able to read that full Bruce Timm quote to get the complete context. But it's always struck me as a bit of professional jealousy, as if Timm felt somewhat threatened that someone else's show was getting praise in the niche that previously had belonged solely to B:TAS. It's certainly a lame criticism IMO. Superhero comics have been borrowing from classical mythology from the very beginning. One of Marvel's biggest characters is directly from Norse mythology, and DC's Wonder Woman (who was obviously prominent in Timm's Justice League and subsequent projects) is of course an Amazon. So is Timm's beef solely with Celtic myth in particular? The idea that any story or idea should be off-limits, or is inherently uninteresting, is quite frankly kind of a philistine take. Just because something isn't interesting to Bruce Timm, or to me, or to Greg Weisman, doesn't make it inherently bad. It's especially funny to think of Celtic myths as "namby-pamby" after listening to the Voices from Eyrie podcast with Diane Duane and Peter Morwood, where they made it pretty clear that Celtic myths are anything but!

I'll also say, as a longtime fan of much of Timm's work, he's only as strong as his writers. When he had Alan Burnett, Paul Dini, Michael Reaves, and Marty Pasko as story editors on B:TAS, that show was firing on all cylinders. Some of his later work, particularly the direct-to-video movies over the past 15 years or so, have been...well, "uneven" is probably being charitable. A few of them have been downright offensive and made me question his judgment.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 1:37:33 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

MATTHEW - I recall Bruce Timm arguing that the core concept of "Gargoyles" was a bad idea with that "namby-pamby Celtic mythology" - presumably the concept of the leads being living gargoyles who'd originated in medieval Scotland. Which does seem to take the arguments by those who believed that the Avalon World Tour ruined the series, in part, by introducing more fantastic element, one step further, holding that the gargoyles themselves were a mistake. (It strikes me that Batman himself is the quintessential "exaggerated-mundane" super-hero, someone with no fantasy or science fiction elements in his story, just a man who lost his parents to crime and so became a crime-fighter to avenge their deaths, armed with only good skills, training, and equipment.)

And, given that Lexington and Amp's story was handled in a subtle enough manner, I think that Craig's got a good point about it being a less likely reason for Disney to break things off with Slave Labor Graphics.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 8:41:18 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

That said, the only concern they voiced was Shari's introduction of a story "The story is told" cause they found it awkward.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 6:05:10 am EDT from 68.119.3.1

Matthew > While I don't doubt that 2008-era Disney would be disinclined to explore the Lex/Amp relationship, I've never heard that as a reason for the comic being canceled. Given Greg's ability to write around Disney's censorship requirements, I can't imagine that would be a deal-breaker, given that Amp is on another continent and it's hardly a major storyline for the foreseeable future. Obviously it would suck if Greg had to avoid mentioning Lex's sexuality, but I also can't see that as something that would tank the entire series. Greg at the time said that the licensing agreement with SLG expired in August 2008 (I think), and in negotiating the potential new license, Disney instituted what Greg characterized as a "steep rate hike" that SLG just couldn't justify given the book's sales. So taking Greg at his word, it sounds like more a matter of corporate greed and wanting a larger slice of the pie than anything else.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 2:31:18 am EDT from 69.118.30.106

Todd> If I recall correctly Disney was still iffy on the subject of representing LGBTQ+ in any of their properties, which would've been a complication of Lex and Amp's relationship. I might be mistaken though.

"Here In Manhattan" marked the first time I got to read the Gargoyle comics as they published. And yes, the first comic is heavily based on reintroducing the cast to any new readers, it was a long time in-between the two comic series and even fans may have needed a refresher.

It's a bit funny that Gargoyles would reference Batman, even subtly. While Batman: the Animated Series was certainly an influence on the show (unavoidable with Frank Puar working on it), Bruce Timm didn't have anything nice to say about it.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Mar 21, 2025 1:15:47 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Todd Jensen> Given a bit of a joke with a caption on the pic in the Caped Crusader artcle, wonder if anyone in the clan caught Gummi Bears at this point.

Well, not sure about the likeliness of any Gargoyles crossover with DC, there has been some stuff not expected for a longtime due to the partys involved:
- Marvel/DC crossovers of old reprinted.

- A new Marvel and DC crossover looks to be coming.

- Heck, Marvel's ROM and Micronauts stuff is being reprinted, and luckily in softcover as well which I'll aim for.


As an aside, wonder if they'd consider a Facsimile Edition of The Wizard of Oz book from 78. Yeah, before Marvel and DC would crossover their characters, they collaborated on TWoO.

Marvel was going to do an adaptation on the book, DC an adaptation of the movie. They agreed there wouldn't be much profit with both released, so they just worked on the movie based one together.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Mar 20, 2025 9:11:20 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

MATTHEW - So what were those studio politics? I'd like to know more about them; all I remember from the time was Disney deciding not to renew the contract with Slave Labor Graphics or something like that.

I've started on "Here in Manhattan", and reread the first chapter, "A Little Crazy", today.

One element that stands out to me is that it's definitely a relaunch with much of the chapter devoted to reintroducing the readers to the cast - so much, perhaps, that Thailog is just planning the kidnapping scheme that's the focus of the opening chapters by the end of this chapter. I think it's safe to assume that, if this story had come directly after "Clan-Building", Thailog would have been much further along by the conclusion of the alternate Chapter One, with not as much exposition needed.

Lexington seems to have gotten a lot better at driving since his encounter with Vinnie's motorcycle.

coldstone shows himself to be far from fond of humans in this chapter, which ties in with his upcoming role. (I can't help but think that the Dracon and Brod factions have lost a little something in smarts since "Turf". In that episode, Dracon and Brod both took the sensible approach of "get rid of the gargoyles as the common foe first, then each other". Glasses and Jack Dane - who are, admittedly, the subordinates (though Glasses had shown a good deal of smarts himself in the television series) - quickly wind up deciding to shoot at each other rather than at the ColdDuo; not the best strategy, in my opinion.

We get our first hint of Dino Dracon; more about that in the next few chapters.

I suspect that one of the most popular moments in this chapter must have been the part where Goliath unwittingly quotes Batman, and Elisa picks up on it. (I even came across an on-line opinion piece on that bit which wanted to see a "Gargoyles"/"Batman" crossover - and did address, incidentally, what strikes me as one of the leading obstacles to such a crossover, that Batman is owned by one of Disney's major competitors.) I wonder whether Greg Weisman's less concerned now about "Gargoyles" being mistaken for a Batman rip-off (and it's been quite a while now since "Batman: TAS" came out). It's certainly an entertaining moment (though it could probably get some serious competition, in its take-off on that particular line, from the "Batman: the Musical" scene in "Batman Beyond").

While, as I said above, it's the allusion that got the most amount of attention, I'll confess that the reference I particularly liked in this chapter, being fond of British drama on PBS, was the "Call the Midwife" line - which becomes even more fun when we find out who that particular midwife is in the next chapter.... (And her return will probably feel a bit different this time around, since I've just been rereading that Timedancer story featuring her....)

All in all, a good start to the new comic and the "Gargoyles" revival.

FAVORITE LINES.

A.T.M. BANDIT (as Angela snatches him out of his seat): Dude, man, I'm drivin' here!

ANGELA: I am neither a "dude" nor a "man". Not in any sense of those words.

A.T.M. BANDIT: Right, right. Sorry, uh... miss?

LEXINGTON (seating himself behind the steering wheel): Now, I'm drivin' here!

{Safely parks the car.}


ELISA: So, fine. I found love on a parapet.


BROOKLYN: Geez, you two. We've got an impressionable minor here.

NASHVILLE: Oh please, I've seen snogging before.

ANGELA: And the expression of affection is nothing to be ashamed of.

BROADWAY: Too true!


NASHVILLE: Can I go on patrol?

BROOKLYN AND KATANA: No!

NASHVILLE: Harrumphhhh!


COLDSTONE: Then why protect them?

GOLIATH: Because a true gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air, and "Castle Manhattan" requires our protection. We will not hide from the humans, but we will also give them time to know us, while protecting our castle from all possible danger so that someday, we might live here together, in harmony. And in the meantime, let us use our legend to bedevil Manhattan's miscreants... if human criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot, that may work to our advantage.

ELISA: Goliath, are you quoting the Caped Crusader?

GOLIATH: I do not believe so. Who is this Crusader? Might he be of some use to our cause?

ELISA: Never mind.


AL: Don't you think you'd better page the doctor? Or maybe call the midwife?


THAILOG: And for the record, I've already taken an interest in this child. In fact, I intend to adopt him or her to raise as my own.

SHAHRAZAD: "Adopt"? The kid's not exactly an orphan.

THAILOG (with a close-up on his mouth almost identical to the close-up on Goliath during his "Batman" quote): No. Not yet.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Mar 20, 2025 8:20:21 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

The end of "Clan Building" is a bit bittersweet not just because the story was left unresolved for so many years but because of the studio politics that cut it off right when the story was getting going. And while it's great that the story didn't end on a cliffhanger and with the Manhattan Clan reunited, it's also a bit bittersweet that we had the ending of the TimeDancer arc concluded before it could truly take off. There are so many stories yet to be resolved and I really hope we get to see it in full some time in the future. As nice as it is to see Brooklyn finally found love, it does feel a bit like a cheat showing the results of the union without the relationship build.

One thing that stands out to me is this time Demona gets to see the massacre in full; we all know that the loss of her clan to Canmore was one of the biggest reasons that she fully turned against humanity. But there's still that brief period when she was focused on revenge but it hadn't fully consumed her. When she was willing to save both Macbeth and Gruoch and even ally with humans. I like to think the Battle of Rathveramoen shook her up enough that she'd consider a gargoyle/human alliance in the future.

One little detail I find interesting is that the cover of course references the old art work for A New Hope by Tom Jung, who next to Drew Struzan created the iconic poster art for Star Wars and related material. I find this funny considering as Greg has never shied away from criticizing the franchise but would later work on Star Wars: Rebels.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Mar 20, 2025 1:17:28 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Reread Chapter Twelve of "Clan-Building", "Phoenix", today. This chapter completed both the initial Timedancer story and "Clan-Building".

One element about this chapter that stands out to me is the casualties in Brother Valmont's rain of arrows - particularly the first one. I think it's a particularly impressive achievement that the story gained so much pathos and poignancy over the death of a just-introduced character ("Sacrifice"), whom the audience had barely gotten to know. (We've gotten to know her better in "Dark Ages: Alliance", of course, where she's "Desdemona"'s teacher, but that didn't come out for several years after this chapter.) I think that a lot of it was thanks to our seeing the grief of her mate (whom we'd already gotten to know a bit in "City of Stone").

(Feeling a sense of loss over the death of Magus the horse was easier to accomplish; he'd been established in the two preceding chapters. As for Mail Brigti, I doubt too many members of the audience shed any tears for him - though it helped set up an additional reason for Gillecomgain to be eager to kill Findllaech many years later.)

And speaking of the "City of Stone" cast, we get another look at the young Bodhe - and his experiences on the battlefield explain a lot about his actions in Macbeth's day.

Constantine, in his showdown with the Grim, hints at Maol Chalvim's future act of treachery against his cousin, eight years later.

And the Phoenix comes for Brooklyn, Mary, and Finella - with Brooklyn coming up with an ingenious way of getting the Grimorum away from Demona before the bird (I like Brooklyn's nickname for it, "time-fowl") can whisk them away.

It's a bit of a pity, actually, that we already knew whom Brooklyn would be returning to modern times with; I remember Greg Weisman mentioning at the 2001 Gathering how they'd planned to show Brooklyn's return to Manhattan in a way that it would initially appear that his companions are Mary and Finella, before revealing that they're his new gargoyle family - but, of course, we learned about his family before learning about the role that Mary and Finella would play in his first adventure. Nothing to be done about that now, of course. (We also now know, thanks to "Here in Manhattan", that Mary, at least, is around in modern-day New York.) And it makes for an impressive ending, certainly.

The Battle of Rathveramoen takes place during the Hunter's Moon - perhaps the first time that a Hunter (or two Hunters - one yet to don the mask, the other using war-paint, technically, rather than a mask)struck at gargoyles during that time.

I noticed that a few of the combatants in the battle were wearing closed helms, of a sort that wouldn't appear in actual history until the 12th or 13th centuries - but it's no worse an anachronism than stone castles in Scotland during that time.

The chapter had a particularly good framing device - opening with Goliath brooding (in his "Thinker" pose again) on the castle battlements about the troubles that had befallen both the clan and the gargoyle race in general, giving a sense of just how hopeless their situation must have seemed for a time - and when we return to him, we see that things are a lot less bleak for the clan after all. And I especially liked the comparison to the legend of the Phoenix rising from its ashes. So appropriate.

All in all, a fine conclusion to "Clan-Building".

FAVORITE LINES.

GOLIATH (thinking): A thousand years ago, the humans reduced us to dust and ashes, and a few lone survivors. They thought they had crushed us completely. Our clan. Our race. Our spirits. They thought we would never rise again.

BROOKLYN: Way to go, bro!

BROOKSBRO: "Bro"?

BROOKLYN: Uh, it's short for "rookery brother".

BROOKSBRO: Ah. Excellent, bro.


BROOKLYN: Can you reverse the spell?

DEMONA: The spell? Perhaps. Its consequences, never.


BROOKLYN: I knew it! You did send me on this little timedance so I'd chronal-boogie to your temporal-tune! And now that I've done what needed doing, I don't even get the satisfaction of learning how it all turn - turned - out!


BROADWAY: We've... we've lost him.

ANGELA: Maybe forever.

BROOKLYN (just off-stage): Foreer... forty years... forty secons...howeer you keep time, the Dance is finally done.

BROADWAY: It's... it's Brooklyn!

ANGELA: And he's not alone!

GOLIATH (thinking): They thought we would never rise again...

LEXINGTON: Goliath! We're home from jolly ol' England!

HUDSON: And we're not alone!

GOLIATH (delightedly seeing Coldstone and Coldfire): Brother! Sister!

COLDIRE: Hudson convinced us it was time for Coldfire and Coldstone to rejoin the clan!

BROADWAY: Goliath... turns out Brooklyn went on a little trip too... and... uh... well... you better come see for yourself...

GOLIATH (staring in astonishment): Brooklyn, what is all this about...

BROOKLYN (much older now, with an eyepatch and armor): It's about clan and castle, Goliath. It's about finally coming home. I spent forty years bouncing back and forth across the timestream. And I picked up a few additions to the clan along the way... This is my mate, Katana. Our son, Nashville.

NASHVILLE: Yo. Call me Gnash.

BROOKLYN: Our beast Fu-Dog. Oh, and we call the egg "Egwardo".

ANGELA (to Katana): I've never seen a gargoyle egg... May I hold it?

GOLIATH (shaking hands with Brooklyn): I am not sure I fully understand...

BROOKLYN: Lonnnng story. Some of it even true.

HUDSON: And we shall hear it all in time. But for now, the clan welcomes home its sons and daughters!

ELISA (emerging from the elevator in the great hall): Goliath! We've got trouble! The Pack - whoa... Goliath?

GOLIATH: Explanations may wait. You spoke of trouble? Of the Pack?

ELISA: Right. Right. Jackal busted Wolf and Hyena out of Rikers. They're throwing a party in Time Square.

GOLIATH: Then perhaps the clan - the entire clan - should throw a little party of its own...

{As the clan all glide off from the castle....}

GOLIATH (thinking): The clan was shattered. We were but six... yet in a few short years, our numbers more than doubled! Thus like the Phoenix, Clan Manhattan rises!

LEXINGTON: The Pack'll never know what hit 'em!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Mar 19, 2025 7:54:53 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

What if Characters from asian myths: the Kojiki, Journey of the West, and Ramayana & Mahabharata
appear or exist in Disney’s gargoyles as children of Oberon and how would they interact with Goliath and his clan Gargoyles comic book or revival series in the future?
shango
posted @ Wed, Mar 19, 2025 2:10:02 pm EDT from 73.207.12.168

Just bring up one of Todd's favorite lines:

"BROOKLYN (thinking): Chill, Brook. Get a grip. Remember, this is Demona Classic. Tenth century and...

{His eyes glow white with fury.}

BROOKLYN (still thinking): And still the traitor who caused the Wyvern Massacre!"

I imagine this is a reminder for those who mistake Demona's earlier years (Especially before her betrayal of Macbeth) as her being simply good. Especially cause there's nothing wrong with scratching a kids' face I'm sure.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Mar 19, 2025 8:28:54 am EDT from 68.119.3.1

The image of Brooklyn considering his past cursed self is one of the most profound bits of visual storytelling in the original run. And in the context of the story, it really demonstrates how much Brooklyn has changed since the night when he and his rookery brothers eagerly jumped into battle against the Vikings. Circumstances with the Hunters made Castle Wyvern his home again. But he's long since left behind the age of superstition and the sword, this country, this kingdom, this era isn't who he is anymore. Now comes the part when he has to consider who he's going to be with new situation, and what better way to do that then by reintroducing the figure he's hated the most?

Demona seeking revenge against humanity to the point that she won't even grieve her fallen clan really illustrates how far she's fallen and will continue to do so. At the same time, it's a great bit of character building that Brooklyn is willing to set his anger aside for the time being and try to work with her. Familiarity is going to be a rare commodity for him in this journey.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Mar 19, 2025 3:39:32 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Reread Chapter Eleven, "Tyrants", today.

This continues Brooklyn's first Timedancer adventure, with a dramatic build-up to the Battle of Rathveramoen. In particular, Brooklyn winds up having to make a temporary alliance with Demona to help his new human friends - the gargoyle who really hates Demona is the one who has to seek her out and persuade her to come to the aid of the Grim and the rest. The exchange between them was great - particularly Brooklyn remembering grimly that Demona was partly responsible for the Wyvern Massacre (I think it's a mark for Brooklyn, by the way, that he focuses on that act rather than on her duping him in "Temptation", which hasn't yet happened on her timeline). And when Demona, up to this point her usual fury-filled self, starts backing down, frantically stammering out an excuse, when Brooklyn brings up how she survived the same massacre.

For that matter, this chapter contains another great - and truly chilling - Demona scene, when we discover that she's far more interested in getting revenge on the humans for the latest slaughter of gargoyles than providing a Wind Ceremony for the massacre's victims. It reminded me a bit of a passage in Eleeanor Prosser's "Hamlet and Revenge" (a book that would interest a lot of "Gargoyles" fans, since it focuses on two prominent elements in the series, Shakespeare and the theme of revenge) about an Elizabethan play, "The Spanish Tragedy", where the main character refuses to have his murdered son buried in order to fuel his quest for revenge, treated as an unsettling act. I think it shows just how eaten up by revenge Demona is - that it means more to her than the well-being of her fellow gargoyles.

A really great bit: Mary asks Brooklyn when he's talking about getting home "isn't this your century?" and Brooklyn realizes that it isn't any more. There's something about "What used to be my home isn't my home any more" moments.

We get another nod to Scottish history in the scene where Constantine shaves his head, as the first step to painting the Hunter's symbol on his face. In actual history, Constantine was nicknamed "the Bald"; Greg Weisman came up with an ingenious way of incorporating this element into the story.

Brother Valmont reports that he found out about Princess Katharine and the Magus's departure through reading the entrails of goats; this is perhaps the first hint that conventional divination rituals exist in the Gargoyles Universe (assuming, that is, that he was telling the truth about how he obtained that information).

Brooklyn visiting Castle Wyvern with Mary and Finella and confronting his petrified self was something that I'd imagined happening even before this chapter came out - even before the Slave Labor Graphics comics came out - so it was fun (in a way) to see that creativity demon appearing in the story (if a bit differently than I'd imagined it).

Brooklyn, confronting the stone Goliath, gets some sense of what it's like to come upon gargoyles in stone sleep, and even speculates on how it appears to Elisa.

And when he's musing about meeting Demona, he refers to her as "the... witch". The pause between words makes me wonder whether Brooklyn was considering calling her by a different word, which would rhyme with "witch" but be far less likely to be accepted by Standards and Practices.

Sruighlea, the home of the gargoyles slaughtered by Constantine and Gillecomgain, is the Gaelic name for Stirling, which played a major role in Scottish history. It was here, for example, that William Wallace won a major victory over the English in 1297 (the year after Edward I carried the Stone of Destiny off to England), and the Battle of Bannockburn (where Macbeth helped his fellow Scotsmen out) was linked to a Scottish siege of the then English-held Stirling Castle. I've wondered whether Brooklyn's Timedancing might at some point drop him in on the Scottish Wars of Independence and even cross paths with William Wallace or Robert the Bruce.

(And the gargoyle beasts are clearly as horrified by the news of that cell's slaughter as the gargoyles themselves.)

Brooklyn's "hit those books, kids" moment takes on new meaning now that we've seen him schooling a less-than-enthusiastic Gnash. (To be fair about that speech, tenth century Scotland doesn't probably get that much coverage in history books nowadays. The Phoenix *would* have to deposit Brooklyn in a period that didn't get that much documentation - as compared to, say, the Pacific Theater portion of World War II, which we know from "Here in Manhattan" he'll also be visiting.

Another moment I enjoyed: the little incidents in Brooklyn's search for Demona, such as his own encounter with the aftermath of the Sruighlea slaughter, and his sleeping during the day inside a hollow tree.

Constantine shows just how much of a tyrant he is in putting the Grim's messenger to death, in defiance of the laws of medieval warfare. Even Gillecomgain's father Mail Brigti, hardly a man of mercy, looks uneasy about it.

And we conclude with the cliffhanger in which, not only is Demona plotting to turn on the humans, but Brother Valmont also seizes the Grimorum Arcanorum for himself....

FAVORITE LINES.

BROOKLYN: There it is! Castle Wyvern! Home, sweet, decimated home....


BROOKLYN: And the Gate's the only way I'm getting back to my century.

MARY: But, Brooklyn, isn't this your century?

BROOKLYN: Huh. I guess it isn't, Mary. Not anymore.


TRUE: We... we should hold a Wind Ceremony.

DEMONA: No, little one. We should kill them. We should kill them all.


MARY: You don't sound very sure. Don't you know what is going to happen?

BROOKLYN: Too much T.V. Too few history books. You never know when a giant flaming magical time-traveling bird is gonna swallow you whole and spit you out in the tenth century! So hit those books, kids!


DEMONA: Fool! Are you trying to destroy the whole clan or just-

BROOKLYN: You!

{He swoops upon her, grabbing her.}

BROOKLYN: You accuse me of destroying the clan?

DEMONA: I know you! You're from Wyvern! By the Dragon, you survived Wyvern!

BROOKLYN (thinking): Chill, Brook. Get a grip. Remember, this is Demona Classic. Tenth century and...

{His eyes glow white with fury.}

BROOKLYN (still thinking): And still the traitor who caused the Wyvern Massacre!

DEMONA: Apologies, young warrior! I thought you were from my clan... my new clan! But tell me, please. How did you survive?

BROOKLYN: I... was in the rookery.

DEMONA: The rookery, of course! And your brothers... They were sent down too! Did they -

BROOKLYN: Yes, but the Magus turned them to stone with Goliath and Hud - and the old soldier.

DEMONA (her eyes glowing red): The humans! Those they don't destroy they curse!

BROOKLYN (his own eyes glowing as well): Can't help noticing you escaped both fates.

DEMONA: I... I was in the forest... I -

BROOKLYN: Doesn't matter. It's just "great" we both survived - because I need your help.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Mar 18, 2025 8:06:38 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Matthew the Fedora> Besides being a big step for Brooklyn and has many interesting stories to tell, it's also a big example of Gargoyles not really heavy on the status quo.

Marvel in their mainline make such a big deal of Spider-Man having a regular marriage, Gargoyles has a fan favorite gains a mate, becomes a parent and literally older. Especially not having to worry about Brooklyn ever undoing such via Mephisto.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Mar 18, 2025 7:23:44 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

Sixth.

Todd > Interesting point about the "tengwar" on the wanted poster. Hmm. I don't think it's EXACTLY tengwar, but it definitely looks to be inspired by it. This would be a good question for Ask Greg (Guler). Maybe when the Voices from the Eyrie podcast eventually reaches the comics.

I saw this interview with Greg promoting the new Demona comic: https://www.gamesradar.com/comics/gargoyles-demona-greg-weisman-interview/

One interesting point is that [SPOILER] he says Angelika is NOT Demona's biological child. [/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Tue, Mar 18, 2025 6:20:49 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

The TimeDancer arc is one that's a particular interest to me and not just because Brooklyn was my favorite gargoyle when I was younger. I really hope this is something that gets revisited properly in the comics rather than just referenced.

"The Gate" does a good job setting up the new story arc with a down Brooklyn needing time away and the Phoenix Gate providing just that. Plus it helps reintroduce some plot points that that were left hanging in the beginning of the Avalon arc. What happened with Mary and Finella, or the conflict between Kenneth and Constantine. I actually like that it picks up not long after the first two had to turn away from Avalon, it sort of throws you right into the action.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Mar 17, 2025 11:55:22 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Todd Jensen> "Constantine's story about Finella being behind Kenneth's murder to avenge her (non-existent) son's death comes from the Scottish chronicles;"

Huh. Given the exchange she has when Mary asks her about such, I figured there was something to that.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Mar 17, 2025 11:21:52 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

It's working fine now for me; I suppose the problems come and go. I just hope they don't start up again - at least, not soon.

Reread "The Gate" today, the start of Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures.

I remember much discussion, when the concept of "Timedancer" became public, about how it was that Brooklyn was unable to control the Phoenix Gate. At first, people thought that the Gate had been damaged from Goliath throwing it into the "time-stream" in "Future Tense". Then Greg Weisman indicated that Brooklyn never actually got his hands on the Gate, that it was sending him to different time periods without him actually picking it up. But the actual concept turned out to be even more dramatic; the Gate crumbles away, and the Phoenix bursts out from within - it's the Phoenix, now free, that was really sending Brooklyn to different time periods. And what a scene, too!

Brooklyn winds up in Scotland in 997, where he teams up with Mary and Finella, and gets involved in the historical power struggle between Constantine III on one side, and the Grim and Prince Maol Chalvim on the other (with the unexpected treat of Findlaech as their ally - I never seriously thought we'd see him again, beyond his cameo in "Avalon Part Two" and Macbeth mentioning him in "Pendragon" - not to mention a young Bodhe showing up as well). With the additional complication of Constantine and Gillecomgain having a "villain team-up", and the introduction of a new villain, Valmont (who was hinted at in "Avalon Part One", but now comes fully forward). And with the hint of one other figure getting involved at the end....

I've wondered why Kenneth III was called "the Grim" in this story; another way of differentiating the various Scottish royals who happened to share names (like Malcolm, Maol Chalvim, and Canmore)? Given that he comes across as more good-natured than grim, the nickname was clearly intended to be ironic.

Constantine's story about Finella being behind Kenneth's murder to avenge her (non-existent) son's death comes from the Scottish chronicles; they actually had Finella come up with a particularly dramatic way of killing Kenneth, by the way. In their version, Finella showed Kenneth a statue holding a golden apple and urged him to take it. But the statue was booby-trapped; when Kenneth took the apple, he thereby triggered a set of hidden crossbows which riddled him with bolts. (Lexington would probably have found the contraption interesting - not approving of the purpose, of course, but fascinated by the mechanics.) The story clearly survived his death.

The wanted posters are written in what looks like tengwar; I've wondered about that. I've seen cases of magazine mock-ups where the text was written in Latin (or what looked like Latin) to substitute for writing that wasn't ready to be shown to the public yet; I don't know if this was a similar procedure, though.

Brooklyn, trying to explain about time travel to Mary and Finella, mentions "Star Trek". I suspect that it was inevitable, given where a lot of the voice actors came from. (He also mentioned "Quantum Leap", which reminds me of one joking alternate title for "Timedancer" I'd seen from a fan: "Quantum Beak".)

We get another dose of Shakespeare in "Gargoyles" from "The Grim", "Welcome every man according to his station, and who shall 'scape whipping?" It's based on a line of Hamlet's to Polonius.

And both Constantine and the royal cousins' remarks about gargoyles allying with the Grim definitely takes on a new light, now that we've read "Dark Ages: Alliance" - and saw the effect the gargoyle alliance with Kenneth II and Prince Malcolm had on Constantine's father.

I recall some sharp-eyed readers pointing out that the building where Brooklyn, Broadway, and Angela encountered first the Phoenix Gate, then the Phoenix, was the Daily Bugle (if showing just enough of it to make it safe for showing without copyright issues).

And it feels a bit odd (and maybe not quite appropriate) reading about Constantine's "Irish dogs" on St. Patrick's Day.

A good start to a new time travel story (something I thought at first we'd never see again after "Future Tense").

FAVORITE LINES.

ANGELA: We should tell Goliath immediately!

BROOKLYN: Well, sure. S'not every night a magical time travel talisman falls out of the sky.


BROOKLYN: I take it I'm not in Manhattan anymore... Don't suppose any of you know where I am? Or more important, when?


BROOKLYN: Okay, now that I've set back human-gargoyle relations for the next millennium, why don't you get in the cart before they realize my clan's not coming, and I don't eat brains?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Mar 17, 2025 8:02:57 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Glad to report that things seem to be working normally for me!

Third!
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Mon, Mar 17, 2025 10:14:32 am EDT from 47.233.90.133

There's nothing happening that I'm aware of. There's always the possibility this or some other site hosted on this server, or maybe another server on the provider's network, is under some kind of DDoS which would impact this site as well. But at the moment everything seems okay.
Gorebash
posted @ Mon, Mar 17, 2025 9:40:06 am EDT from 71.232.153.135

I'd like to simply write "First" and wish the room a happy St. Patrick's Day, but this morning's events have made me concerned about the comment room.

When I tried to visit this morning, I was repeatedly informed by my Internet connection that the room was under some sort of attack and unsafe to visit (if indicating that this was not the normal state of affairs). When I finally got here, I noticed that the various pages are taking longer than normal to load. Is someone trying to take down this site?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Mar 17, 2025 9:13:34 am EDT from 68.99.93.213