Fact Checker - You were going further into the weeds than I did for my answer. ORIGINALLY, we ASSUMED we'd get 26, as we had gotten 26 for season one. Then, every early on, we were told we were getting 20 max. Then it was ten for sure, and another ten maybe. Then that second ten was approved.

I didn't feel the need to go into that kind of detail, since it seemed beside the point. AND since it doesn't change that point, which is that we knew VERY early on that we weren't getting 26, so there are no lost episodes, no blanks on the timeline that would have been filled by these non-existent missing episodes.

But thanks for trying to keep me honest.
Greg Weisman
posted @ Sun, Apr 20, 2025 6:12:59 pm EDT from 70.227.91.143

Brainiac> The internal narration works better because they each give the chance for a different character to voice their own perspective. I don't remember much from the Goliath Chronicles but the opening narration felt like they were waxing philosophic just for the sake of trying to sound profound.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Apr 20, 2025 4:49:02 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

And Elisa's costume was based on the pre-Disney version of Alice, anyway.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Apr 20, 2025 9:41:53 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Going back to discussions about the narration in the comics, has anyone else felt the shifting internal narration worked far better than Goliath's opening monologues in TGC? I doubt that was an intended "fix" for obvious reasons, but it did recently pop into my head rather out of nowhere that it served at least as a good point of comparison. It also shows the different focal natures of the works - the entire Clan rather than just Goliath (even if he is still the "prism").

Also Matthew, I came to the same conclusion about Elisa going as Alice (KH Princess of Heart if not a strict Disney Princess) which I'm quite sure was unintentional; I've heard it said the last video game Greg played was Pong. It was still amusing to someone familiar with those games, though.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Sun, Apr 20, 2025 9:30:33 am EDT from 162.154.8.4

Greg Weisman>YJS2 wasn’t cut down from 26 to 20 episodes. Originally you got 10 episodes and only later 10 more.

Get your facts straight before handing anyone else their Fedoras.

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=15593
https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=903
Fact Checker
posted @ Sun, Apr 20, 2025 6:23:58 am EDT from 103.219.21.57

Greg Weisman> Beg your pardon, perhaps I should've worded it better and clarified a certain topic on Young Justice's second season. While I didn't mean a time skip in the way that every season opened with after the first, there is certain points in the story where it jumps from more than a few days or weeks. For example the episode "The Fix" which introduces the arc of Miss Martian beginning to mend Kaldur's mind and coming to terms with her past of abusing her psychic powers, all of which occurs on April 9th. The next episode "Runaways" takes place on May 13th, a good month later within the story's chronology. And the series wouldn't revisit Miss Martian and Kaldur until "Complications" which occurs on May 27th.

I attended the first Ask Greg Live after Young Justice's first cancellation and I remember you speaking on the six episodes or rather ideas that had to be cut for the sake of the twenty episode runtime. This was naturally quite some time ago and my memory has failed or jumped to the conclusion that those six planned episodes were meant to fill in the gap in between early April and mid-May. Obviously I was mistaken.

I wasn't aware that only five issues were planned for this arc. The shorter span in the comic had me believe that it was a bit longer that had been cut down. An assumption on my part but an assumption built upon the unfortunate precedent that's come from your works being trimmed, cut down, or canceled by executive meddling.

Now for the last clarification, I have to skip ahead in terms of Todd's recap and please bear in mind that this isn't a criticism, just a personal preference. I simply wish we got to see a bit more on each of the new Keys to Power and of their individual power before they became part of this new trinity and used in Demona's latest bid for conquest. The Grimorum Arcanorum of course kickstarted the plot of the series and its spells would complicate things up until its destruction. The Eye of Odin was important in "The Edge", "Eye of the Beholder", and "Eye of the Storm." The latter two demonstrating why it's too dangerous to be possessed by mortals. And of course the Phoenix Gate was integral for the episode "Vows" and the unintended push of Demona onto a dangerous path, to say nothing on its importance to "TimeDancer."

I truly enjoyed this arc, its tight pace and that it was the best demonstration of Demona's megalomania since "City of Stone." I guess its part of that paradoxical feeling of liking what we got but simultaneously wanting more.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Apr 20, 2025 2:29:44 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

MORRAND - I'm glad you liked my report on the upcoming Macbeth exhibition.

GREG WEISMAN - Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts and information with us.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Apr 19, 2025 8:11:27 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Guess I picked the wrong day to wander back in.

Coming at it from the position of a fan who's got about thirty years of catching up to do, the time skip just emphasized that Demona was lying low enough not to be found. This is an ominous sign in and of itself. The fact that she'd hold her fire that long ought to be terrifying, in some ways, and I cannot quite help but think the question of why she's not acting would be eating at Goliath and all.

There was some speculation here, I think, about the significance of the exact dates shown (other than Halloween), and if there is some, it'll be a joy to find out; but again, as someone not as steeped in the lore, it'll be fine with me to find out that there is no special significance to October 16, 1997, or the other dates (unlike the sequence of times assigned to Hudson and Lexington waking up in London back in "Clan-Building").

And, if it turns out that's a significant date, I'll take great joy in discovering the significance when that's revealed.

I think I'd mentioned at the time that Wyvern, when revealed, seemed awfully immobile, and whether he's just chillin' in his gold (or the Illuminati's gold, or a little of both) or whether he's actually unable to exit from it is an open question. I don't suppose it's out of the question that he is both a member of the Illuminati and a prisoner of it--certainly, that seems to be a going theme--and the idea that even the Illuminati would not be thrilled at having a live dragon running around at liberty in the basement isn't too ridiculous.

Todd Jensen: Regarding "Discover Britain," you have just made my summer vacation plans for me, maybe. Assuming that conditions...well.

The way in which Katana subdues John Castaway struck me at the time. She just grabs him. She could just slaughter him, or do worse things, but she doesn't. I'd read that as a sign that, whatever else may be going on, she recognizes that just subduing him with a minimum of force is (a) going to produce the least fear from the humans around them, and maybe (b) is going to really embarrass him, to the clan's benefit. It's a character tell and an important one. As for Castaway, to Todd's point, if the Quarrymen seemed a bit pathetic before, they can't seem any more potent after that, reinforcing Katana's good judgement here.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Apr 19, 2025 7:30:11 pm EDT from 108.69.72.60

MatthewTFG - Not sure what point you're making about YJS2. While it's true that the order for that season was reduced to 20 episodes down from 26, that happened so early in the process that Brandon and I hadn't even broken the season yet. It's not like there were six specific episodes that were just cut from the season. And there's no time skip in the middle of the season either, where those non-existent missing episodes would have fallen. (Of course, there's the big infamous time skip at the start of the season, but that doesn't seem to be what you're referring to.) Plot lines had to be excised, specifically a Zatanna story and a Red Tornado story, and maybe, I seem to recall, a Marvel Family story, but those weren't episodes, just ideas. In every season, we might skip ahead a few days, a week or two, whatever, between one episode and the next. But we basically ran things more or less across six months. In the case of S2, from January 1st to July 4th. And those twenty episodes cover that six month span without any significant gaps.

Likewise, I knew going into Quest that I only had five issues. I built it the way I built it with that in mind. No one MADE me have it cover as much calendar territory as it did. That was my creative choice, made for various reasons I won't get into. It's not like the series started out as six or seven issues and I felt I had to cut one or two of them and adjust. It's just not what happened.

Now, of course, that doesn't mean you have to like what was done. Your opinion is your opinion. And your are totally entitled to it. But I'd caution against assuming things about the creative process that you're not privy to. Cause it opens you up to getting your Fedora handed to you by the creators.

For whatever that's worth.
Greg Weisman
posted @ Sat, Apr 19, 2025 4:21:29 pm EDT from 70.227.91.143

MATTHEW - Thanks for the information on Japanese holidays.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Apr 19, 2025 9:04:20 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

"technically, a Disney character, but not a princess"

Ah, but she is, at least according to Kingdom Hearts lore, she's a Princess of Heart.

Chronologically speaking (and narratively speaking), this is an odd point. Right now we're in the middle of Demona's quest for the Keys to Power and the Clan is well aware that she's hunting for them. There's a large time skip from the end of July to late September to late November in the last issue and only one Halloween night to fill in the middle. In Young Justice's second season there was another notable time skip in the middle of its second season, due to six episodes that had to be cut from the draft. I can imagine that if this series got a few more issues we'd see a bit more or the events would be spread out a bit.

This was a nice little issue all the same. Gnash gets the spotlight properly as he gets to have some proper adventures with kids his own age. We also get a bit of insight into Katana and not just her confusion on the Halloween season, I especially like moment when protects Gnash from Castaway. No banter, quips or talk. Just straight down to business to anyone who threatens her son. And that moment when she expresses pride in Nashville for standing up against the Quarrymen. They have an unconventional relationship by gargoyle standards and yet she still treats him with the proper love and affection only a mother could.

This actually sent me on an interesting rabbit trail, as it turns out larger celebrations of Halloween are a very recent development in Japan. Like only in the past 10-15 years. Japan of course has their own holidays around this time and the Autumnal Equinox Celebration (as established in 1948) is used to honor past ancestors and the dead. Before that was Koresai which was directed more towards honoring past members of the Imperial Court and was held near the vernal equinox. There's also of course Setsubun but spooky dress-up is limited to one family member and that's more for preparing for good fortune for the new year. That one Katana is probably familiar with considering the rituals practiced during the holiday began in the early 14th century.

But Halloween's early myths all involve the period of time when the material and spiritual overlap and Japan has that too. Most famous is Hyakki Yagyo, "Night Parade of One Hundred Demons." One night during the summer when Yokai would venture through the land of mortals and anyone unfortunate enough to stumble upon the parade would be killed or spirited away by the procession. Not unlike the Wild Hunt is some tales.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Apr 19, 2025 4:17:07 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

ANTIYONDER - I've bought the new Volume One as well. (I think it a bit of a pity that the original prints by Archaia got dropped halfway through, and hope that the same won't be the case with this version.)

Reread the Gargoyles Halloween Special, "Trick-or-Treat" today.

It makes a good change-of-pace in the middle of "Gargoyles Quest", with the focus on Gnash (and Bronx and Fu-Dog finally getting to play a major part in things rather than just egg-guarding). Gnash gets to make a few new friends, in the form of Billy, Susan, and Terry. (Billy and Susan's mother had expressed fear for her children's safety from gargoyles back in "The Journey"; she obviously wasn't expecting their making friends with one.)

Katana describes Halloween as "a very confused mix of customs" - that does seem to describe many familiar holidays in a way, with their different familiar features often coming from different sources, if blended together.

Brooklyn describes Halloween as the "one night a year when gargoyles can roam the city unnoticed"; it does match Gnash's experiences, but I can't help thinking that after the developments in "Here in Manhattan", many of the gargoyles (particularly Goliath) will be recognized almost at once as gargoyles.

I'm not certain if this has been commented on before, but when we see Gnash eagerly gliding off to go trick-or-treating, his parents watching from the battlements, we see the Twin Towers in the background - who'll be around for a bit less than four years....

Castaway and the Quarrymen show some serious signs of degeneration here - inevitable, after the gargoyles' situation has changed. Everyone now realizes that they're not weird wild animals but sentient beings, which means that Castaway will no longer be presenting them as like "mountain lions with wings", but like demonic creatures consciously trying to dupe the public into believing them as friendly. And now he's ready to attack any pro-gargoyle humans or even humans in gargoyle costumes - no longer worried about being seen as committing assault and battery. (At least he still seems to believe the gargoyles to be evil, when he talks about getting them to show "their true colors".) I'd like to see the public response to the Quarrymen's actions that night; while some might be cheering Castaway on, I'd like to believe that more would be seeing the Quarrymen as an even bigger menace than the gargoyles ever were, up there with, say, the Pack. (In particular, I'd like to see Margot Yale's response; though she's clearly not fond of the gargoyles, I can imagine her viewing the Quarrymen as now dangerously out-of-control vigilantes.) It isn't helping their cause that the two "Quarrymen wannabes" come across as mere bullies who are using the organization as an opportunity to go around beating people up (and, of course, some of the Quarrymen already introduced earlier had been "villainous henchmen" to people like Fang before they'd signed up under Castaway). We also find out that Billy and Susan's mother wound up deciding not to join the Quarrymen (which ties in with the way she was so uneasily eyeing them in the previous Halloween story, back in "Clan-Building").

(I might add that I liked the "Garg Wiki" mention of the Quarrymen wannabes being named after Moby-Dick - very appropriate in light of Captain Ahab's feud with the whale mirroring that of Gillecomgain, the original Hunter.

Gnash's story about Blackbeard actually being a gargoyle reminds me of a Fantastic Four story I once came across where they time traveled back to the Age of Piracy and the Thing wound up becoming the original Blackbeard. I wonder if that one was an influence on this part of the story.

Goliath's clearly not quite at ease about his new celebrity status; he's probably almost longing now for the days when only a handful of friends and enemies knew about the gargoyles, and to everyone else, they were just an urban legend of the "did that statue come to life or did I just imagine it?" variety. Complete with an amusing moment where Hudson suggests Goliath might wind up on Celebrity Hockey (which reminded me of a "Gargoyles" fanfic comic I once saw that was a crossover with the "Mighty Ducks" cartoon - with Owen as the referee and his alter ego coming to the fore thanks to sharing his name with a piece of hockey equipment....).

Brooklyn's claim that he *is* wearing a costume reminded me of an episode in "Hercule Poirot" (the television adaptation starring David Suchet as Agatha Christie's master detective) where Poirot's attending a costume party in his regular attire. When someone else argues that he should be in costume, that everyone at the party is to be dressed up as someone famous, he replies that he *is* dressed up as someone famous.

The guy in the witch outfit from "Eye of the Beholder" returns and gets fleshed out, including not just a name, but even getting to make friends with Lexington. And Goliath and Elisa get to have another dance (with Elisa's costume changing from "Disney princess" as in the past two Halloweens to the John Tenniel version of Alice - technically, a Disney character, but not a princess, and using a pre-Disney character design).

Castaway becomes yet another "Gargoyles villain" who learns the hard way "Don't mess with the mother", this time, courtesy of Katana.

And, as I said, Bronx and Fu-Dog get to have a lot of fun in this book - riding a subway train, driving off Quarrymen, and that lovely moment where Susan pets Bronx, who's clearly enjoying it.

All in all, a fun Halloween story.

FAVORITE LINES.

HUDSON: So, you're famous now, with the humans tracking your every move.

GOLIATH (looking less than happy about it): The police are simply being careful. They do not want any trouble.

HUDSON: Aye, and I suppose next they'll be putting ye on Celebrity Hockey. Now, that I'd like to see.


LEXINGTON: I can't believe you didn't wear a costume.

BROOKLYN: What do you mean? I am wearing a costume. I'm dressed as a Timedancing gargoyle!

LEXINGTON: Oh, groan.


CARELESS JOINES (on Goliath and Elisa): That is a great, great couple.

ANGELA, BROADWAY, AND BROOKLYN: Yeah.

KATANA: Hai.


FLEEING QUARRYMEN #1: I did not sign up for this!

FLEEING QUARRYMEN #2: Yes, you did! And you made me sign up, too!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Apr 18, 2025 8:28:29 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Not much to add for this bit, though I do have to say it was surprising to find out that the Wyvern has not only made some measure of peace with humans (as best as the old dragon can manage) but he's part of the Illuminati too. I personally like to believe that Peredur pitched him on the idea of being able to stay surrounded by treasure for the rest of his days and the only thing he needed to do was guard it on the off chance someone came in without permission.

We get the reveal of the last two Keys to Power and it's Puck's Flute and Cleopatra's Necklace (the last one revealed at the end). When it comes to the tale of the Pied Piper, I personally lean closer to the telling of the Piper stealing away the children after the mayor of Hamelin snubbed him, at least within the Gargoyles-verse. Puck's already been shown to take snubbing and rudeness with offense and considering what Titania once said, he was pretty bad back in the day.

I'll get more into this once the arc concludes, but it was a bit of a rush to get both MacGuffins in one issue and we don't get much on each individual piece before the masterplan goes into effect.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Apr 18, 2025 5:58:33 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Todd Jensen> Had to wait for nearly a whole decade after following the welcoming, but I have my first purchased copy of Gunnerkrigg Court Volume 1 and will be sure to get each one that follows.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Apr 18, 2025 5:05:46 am EDT from 68.119.3.1

MATTHEW - Yes, happy Bat Appreciation Day!

The latest issue of "Discover Britain" (which I received in the mail yesterday) reported that Perth Museum will be holding a special exhibition on Macbeth (the historical Macbeth as well as the Macbeth of Shakespeare) from April 25 to August 31. (Present at the exhibition will be a sword from the historical Macbeth's time (they showed a photograph of it in the report) and a copy of Shakespeare's First Folio. (They also mentioned that the Perth Museum is now home to the Stone of Destiny.)

Reread Chapter Three of "Gargoyles Quest", "Acquisitions", today. Demona gets her hands on the other two Keys to Power - Puck's flute (introduced in "The Gathering Part One", and now revealed as the flute from the legend of the Pied Piper) and the Necklace of Cleopatra. And to top it off, she has Thailog acquire the remainder of Gungnir, making her collection complete.

Thailog and Shahrizad's adventure included the really big surprise: Wyvern has joined the Illuminati and is guarding their treasure at Eastcheap. There's clearly another off-stage story here, given that the Illuminati leaders had taken Excalibur from Wyvern's original hoard a thousand years earlier; does Wyvern know that they were the ones responsible for the theft? If so, how did he agree to make peace with Peredur and Blanchefleur? (Did Wyvern bring his hoard with him to Eastcheap? I certainly can't imagine a dragon willingly leaving his treasure behind.) Whatever the case, we see Thailog taking advantage of the fact that Wyvern's only expecting humans to steal from him. (The fact that most gargoyles show little interest in worldly goods - Thailog being the grand exception - probably helped there. This feature of gargoyles stands out in contrast to the proverbial avarice of dragons, of course - given that the two species are related.)

In the meantime, Coldstone informs Demona that Angela's still hoping for some sort of reconciliation with her - something that Demona's clearly uneasy about.

Goliath and Elisa get to have a reunion at the clock tower - much more enjoyable than the last time they were there (back in "The Journey"). With, of course, since then, Goliath now being a kind-of-member of the NYPD himself (and his relationship with Elisa being public knowledge).

A LITTLE ABOUT THE PIED PIPER: While Owen refers to the Pied Piper's legend as "once upon a time" - the classic "vague time period" description of fairy tales - it's one of those rare legends that has a specific place on the timeline. The very first mention of the story (written in 1384, a hundred years later) dated it to June 26, 1284, and even claimed that the official records of Hamelin had to be dated to "such-and-such-an-amount of time" after the Pied Piper's visit. This rule is actually apocryphal, but nevertheless, is remarkably defined for a legend. (I wonder whether Owen's calling it "once upon a time" was another result - alongside not being able to tell where Demona lives - of Owen being barred from accessing Puck's knowledge - though he is allowed to reveal that he was the Pied Piper.)

The original account only mentioned the Pied Piper piping the children out of town, never to be seen again; the part about the rats and the town cheating the Piper out of his pay came later. (I suspect that the "rats" part did take place in the Gargoyles Universe; it would have supplied Puck with the loophole he needed to pipe the children away.) Later versions also inadvertently changed the date to July 22, 1376; among these was Robert Browning's famous poem (one of the best-known retellings of the story).

Historians think that the tale of the Pied Piper might have been based on a sort of recruitment effort where young people were encouraged to move to other parts of Germany (later versions claim that the children wound up in Transylvania, for that matter) that were low on population. (What Puck's purpose was, and what became of the children of Hamelin in the Gargoyles Universe, is as yet unknown.)

This isn't the first time one of Greg Weisman's projects has alluded to the Pied Piper, incidentally; the episode from Season One of "Young Justice" where the Light had children and adults shifted to separate worlds included a mention of the Pied Piper in the spell used to make the split (certainly appropriate, given its results).

FAVORITE LINES.


LEXINGTON: Okay, let's find out who's controlling these mechs - except their control-modules are shot - literally. Hey, Coldstone! Watch where you're shooting! You're destroying all the good parts!

COLDSTONE: A - apologies?


JADE: Does this sort of thing happen here every night?

GOLIATH: More often than we would like.

OWEN: Goliath, I believe we have a problem.


WYVERN: You look familiar, human.

SHAHRIZAD: We've met before.

WYVERN: Eh, all you humans look alike to me.

{He sniffs at Thailog.}

WYVERN: Little cousin, you smell... wrong.

THAILOG: Excuse me?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Apr 17, 2025 8:27:09 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

For starters, Happy International Bat Appreciation Day!

For the issue, this was a big one. We're introduced to the White Council as the backer behind the Redemption Squad and the powers at be trying to counter the Illuminati. I have to admit Prospero is nothing like what I imagined, for years my hypothetical casting was Patrick Stewart bringing all the might and gravitas from a distinguished Shakespearian actor and Prospero here turns out to be a bit of a goof. Of course, Patrick Stewart could still do the role considering he's a bit of a goof in real life.

The White Council being a bit more open and human in the way they interact with each other helps distinguish them from the Illuminati too. The latter is shadowy and clandestine even when dealing with their own members, though they still believe that they're saving the world in their own way, their dark deeds and methods have seeped into how they act and behave to the point where it's impossible to separate them from the threats they want to protect the world from. Meanwhile the White Council's appearance, while brief, shows they're still holding onto that bit of humanity, Le Marie even expressing concern about using the Redemption Squad as it's style is against their usual methods. This brings to mind an important plot point from Young Justice's third season, though how that will go remains to be seen.

Having members of the Mayan Clan as part of the storyline is a good choice. We mentioned before that "The Green" wasn't the strongest of episodes so having Jade and Turquesa be part of a larger, more fleshed out story gives them the chance to shine a bit more. And it offers an interesting change for them as well. For years they've been battling the encroachment of man into their home and forest, now they're facing off an evil member of their own kind. What they take from this will be seen soon enough.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Apr 17, 2025 5:46:56 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

MATTHEW - Thanks for your thoughts. I forgot to mention it, but it struck me that both sets of the Three Keys to Power included something connected to Odin (and in both cases, something drawn from the Norse myths). Though the other two new Keys to Power had no similar ties, as far as I could tell, to the Grimorum Arcanorum or the Phoenix Gate.

Reread Chapter Two, ""Quo Vadis Cum Hoc?" today.

Quite a lot takes place. First, we have Goliath continuing to meet with Vinnie and making a deal with his boss (as yet unidentified, but most likely Taro - though if so, Vinnie must have left that information out, judging by Goliath's response). I wonder what the deal was about (beyond the fact that Goliath approved of it - if this really is Taro's doing, either he's changed for the better since "Bushido" or - more likely - there's some dark secret hidden beneath that Goliath doesn't even suspect yet). I also liked Goliath's comments on money and the fact he now has a great deal of it - something he's still not that enthusiastic about.

Obsidiana and Jade are reunited with the Manhattan clan (and get to meet the ones who didn't visit them in Guatemala), while Broadway returns the Sun Amulet to them, wrapping up a thread that's been dangling ever since "The Green". It's a lovely moment.

And we see Thailog carrying out the scheme to steal the Hand of Valmont - from the White Council, revealed as (apparently) the organization behind the Redemption Squad. With the further revelation that Shahrizad is one of its members, and that she entered the Illuminati as a mole. (Which she must have been doing for a long time, given "Dark Ages: Alliance" - but she states that she'd been carrying out that mission even before her fellow member, Monsieur Le Maire, was born - which means before the nineteenth century, if he's whom a lot of readers - including myself - suspect him to be). Which indicates, in turn, that the White Council must have been around for over a thousand years.

And we get to meet Shahrizad's fellow members. Prospero was a treat for me; I'd been hoping for his introduction for years. A series that made use of the witches from "Macbeth" and the fairies from "A Midsummer Night's Dream" has to bring in the fantastic characters from "The Tempest" as well; it wouldn't feel complete without them. And, judging from the mention of Ariel and Caliban, this must indeed be *the* Prospero, rather than a namesake wizard like the main character of John Bellairs' "The Face in the Frost" (a very good fantasy story, by the way, that I highly recommend to everyone here).

(It strikes me as appropriate that Prospero should be currently living in Bermuda, since many Shakespearean scholars hold that one of the inspirations for "The Tempest" was an account of a shipwreck on Bermuda around 1610, written by a certain William Strachey - Shakespeare even included a mention of "the still-vexed Bermoothes". Bermuda's unlikely to be Prospero's isle, of course, unless Shakespeare was taking some liberties; the fact that the King of Naples gets wrecked on it at the start of the play, on his way home from his daughter's wedding to the King of Tunis, indicates that it would have to have been somewhere in the western Mediterranean. Prospero's not the only wizard to pay a visit to Bermuda, incidentally; in T. H. White's "The Sword in the Stone", Merlin gets so exasperate at one point that he cries "Castor and Pollux blow me to Bermuda!" - is immediately whisked away there, and tells the astonished young Arthur when he returns "Let that be a lesson to you never to swear." The Disney animated adaptation included that moment as well.)

And we also meet on-stage Monsieur Le Maire, whom we'd earlier heard in "Bad Guys" - and who seems to be none other than Jean Valjean from "Les Miserables". (Making quite a mixture of members for the Gargoyles Universe's White Council - drawn from Shakespeare, "A Thousand and One Nights", and Victor Hugo. Maybe two Shakespearean members, in light of Shahrizad being called the "Dark Lady" in "The Tale of the Three Brothers".) And he's certainly a formidable figure, capable of taking down Thailog in a fight - something we won't soon forget.

The title of "White Council" for their organization feels particularly apt given that Prospero's hair and beard look very Gandalf-ish. Apparently the man's a Tolkien buff. (If it wasn't for the fact that they might well have more than three members, and that their headquarters might move, I'd suggest for a new name "The Bermuda Triangle".)

Prospero was keeping other objects besides the Hand of Valmont in his vault; I spotted a skull, a couple of daggers, and what looked like a small cauldron, as well as what might be a book clasped tight (though I'm not completely certain that's what it is - if it is indeed a book, did Prospero recover it from the sea where he drowned it?). I'd like to find out more about them, some time.

While Thailog and his group are facing the White Council, Demona launches her own attack on the castle - designed to distract the clan while she faces Owen (exasperated as ever about all the damage the fight's causing the castle) to claim the object she's really after....


FAVORITE LINES.

BROADWAY: Wait - wait here! I'll be right back!

LEXINGTON: Yeah, yeah! We've been holding something for you!

BROADWAY: Don't go anywhere!

(The sun rises, turning most - but not all - of the gargoyles to stone.}

JADE: Well, some of us aren't going anywhere....


OWEN: *sigh* The castle is under attack. Again.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Apr 16, 2025 8:01:55 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Having Demona be the driving force for this comic series was a good call, more than a few episodes had her as the major factor for the episode's plot. It also demonstrates that her being able to shift from gargoyle to human forms offer a lot of story potential as she can court human allies (or victims) secretly. I have to admit I didn't make the whole Argentinian Nazi connection with Dona Anapaula Aguilar from my first read, it's much more obvious in retrospect.

There was a lot of speculation on what would be the new Keys to Power and a lot of us guessed it would be the Spear of Odin, especially after Dark Ages. It certainly makes sense, magic staves and spears are a common trope across cultures. And Odin's name carries a lot recognition these days, arguably more so now than back in the 90's when the show first premiered.

One thing that also seems obvious in retrospect is the fact that things are going to go downhill quickly. Even with the reveal that Antoinette and Coldstone are working with Demona in the last issue, the heroes are still riding high from the success of "Here In Manhattan." Narratively speaking, it's far more common for things to all go wrong when everything seems to be going right.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Apr 16, 2025 3:06:45 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Reread the first chapter of "Gargoyles: Quest" today, "Questions".

This chapter sees the start proper of Demona's plan to gather the new Three Keys to Power, the lancehead of Gugnir [sic] (though the later chapters will provide the correct spelling of "Gungnir". The combination of Dona Anapaula Aguilar's home being in Argentina (i.e., in South America) and the Norse-looking focus of her deceased husband's collection suggests that he was a Nazi in hiding, though that's just a speculation at this point.

Jade and Turquesa make their return in this chapter, continuing their journey home (if on their own Avalon world tour), to become entangled in Demona's scheme (though all they get to do is witness Demona's escape with the spear-head).

Goliath furthers the progress he'd made at the end of "Here in Manhattan" through his public appearance at the Gathering of the Gargoyles Guild; he feels almost comically out of place at it (particularly the autographs part), and yet he does recognize its value, in leading to peaceful co-existence between gargoyles and humans. I particularly liked Antoinette's "that voice" remark - presumably intended as a tribute to Keith David's performance - and the running gag of one of the attendees being really enthusiastic about hugs.

Of course, anti-gargoyle feelings haven't entirely gone away, but the response by Castaway and his fellows show how it's metamorphosing. When the Quarrymen started, the public fear of gargoyles seemed to be based on them being large, frightening creatures of great strength - humans feared them much the same way they feared large predatory animals like wolves or mountain lions - with the additional factor that they're at this point unknowns, making them even scarier. Now, with Goliath having revealed a lot about himself and his people at the hearing, the fear of gargoyles has morphed into a sort of pseudo-religious fanaticism, the sort that believes gargoyles to be demons out to deceive and corrupt humanity - and is ready to slaughter any humans who side with the gargoyles. Less "ordinary people afraid of what's lurking in the dark" and more the kind of people who think they're out to protect humanity but who really (with a nod to another high-quality Disney animated television series) care more about being the heroes of their own delusions. We see Castaway organizing a demonstration outside the hotel, and a young man bursting in to try to kill Goliath and the attending humans - only to be taken down by both Goliath and Elisa.

As for the rest of the clan, we get a touching scene with Hudson visiting Egwardo and musing over how the clan now has a future (which feels sadder when we know what's going to happen just a few chapters later), and Broadway and Angela planning the guest list for the commitment ceremony, which is really getting large - especially with Angela wanting the Avalon clan to attend. (It'd certainly give an opportunity for Tom and Mary to be re-united.) The commitment ceremony's still in the future even now - though I'm sure we're all looking forward to it when it does happen.

Demona seeks out Thailog's help to continue gathering the rest of the Three Keys to Power - a fun scene, which shows two devious and unprincipled schemers recognizing that they'll need to work together to achieve their goals. Demona mentions having been clashing with the Illuminati for centuries; I wonder if we'll get a glimpse of that in her upcoming mini-series.

Vinnie meets up with Goliath and Elisa again - and this time, shares his name with them. And Bronx and Fu-Dog get to have a night out on the town - some action at last....

A LITTLE ABOUT GUNGNIR: Gungnir was indeed Odin's spear in Norse mythology (though how he came to part with it in the Gargoyles Universe is as yet unknown - beyond that Lord Valois had somehow gotten it by 971). It was forged by the dwarves - a group of dwarf smiths named the Sons of Ivaldi - in part of a rather complicated story.

According to the tale, Loki once cut off all the hair of Sif, Thor's wife - overlooking two things that he realized only afterwards: a) that an angry Thor would be looking for the culprit who'd humiliated his wife and b) Loki was the No. 1 suspect. To keep Thor from breaking every bone in his body, Loki agreed to go to the sons of Ivaldi and get them to make new hair for Sif - and, realizing that he needed to do a lot of placating Thor and the rest of the Norse gods, got them to make two other objects. One was a magic ship for the god Freyr, named Skidbladnir, which could sail anywhere in the world, and when you weren't using it, could be folded up to pocket-size; the other was the spear Gungnir, which did indeed, as mentioned in "Gargoyles Quest", always hit its mark.

Thor, Odin, and the other Norse gods pardoned Loki as a result of these gifts, but his troubles weren't over. For some mysterious reason, he then bet another dwarf named Brokk that Brokk's brother, Eitri, an excellent smith himself, couldn't produce three objects as impressive as Sif's hair, Gungnir, and Skidbladnir. (Why Loki made the bet, the story doesn't say; modern retellings, such as the d'Aulaires' "Norse Gods and Giants" - my introduction to Norse mythology - said that Loki started boasting about just how good at their job the sons of Ivaldi were, and Brokk saw it as an insult to Eitri's own skill and protested.) The stakes were that the winner would get the loser's head - something that Loki began to regret when he realized that Eitri might actually win; he embarked on his usual "dirty tricks" means of accomplishing something, and entered Eitri's smithy disguised as a large fly, planning to sabotage the work. He kept stinging Brokk as he worked on the bellows as his way of helping his brother; the first two times, Eitri ignored him, but the third time, he swatted Loki away, resulting in a small defect to the final object, but not enough to ruin it....

The three objects that Brokk and Eitri turned out were a living boar made out of gold as a present for Freyr, a magic ring for Odin named Draupnir, which made nine duplicates of itself every nine nights (very useful in those days, when kings and chieftains - including Odin - were expected to shower many gifts, including rings, upon their followers), and finally, Thor's hammer Mjolnir (which was a bit short in the handle thanks to Brokk interrupting the bellows-work on it to brush Loki away). Mjonir so impressed Thor and the rest of the gods that they declared Eitri the winner - whcih meant that Brokk could claim Loki's head, something he was by this time looking forward to. Loki managed to get out of it, however, by pointing out, to Brokk's frustration, that the terms of the bet only entitled Brokk to his head, but not his neck. (I have a vision of Loki afterwards deciding that he should be getting 10% from every performance of "The Merchant of Venice".) Brokk consoled himself by sewing up Loki's mouth for a while, to the delight of everyone except Loki.

"Gargoyles" isn't the first time that Odin's spear has been imagined as breaking in half, by the way. Wagner's "Ring of the Nibelung" operas also depicted such a fate happening to it - though, of course, in a different way than in the Gargoyles Universe. (It also gave the spear a different origin story; Wotan - the opera cycle's version of Odin - made it from a branch of the World Tree, the Wagernian counterpart of Yggdrasil - though killing the tree in the process. He then carved various runes on its shaft, which symbolized the laws that he swore to uphold as ruler of the gods.) When Wotan gets into a fight with Siegfried, Siegfried breaks Wotan's spear in half with his sword, marking the end of Wotan's rule; Wotan returns to Valhalla with the pieces of his spear, to await the end for both himself and the other gods.

FAVORITE LINES.

DEMONA: Thank you for coming to hear my proposal. Now, please, lower your weapon. I am unarmed, and you know you cannot destroy me.

THAILOG: It never huts to try.


THAILOG: Getting what you want could take some time.

DEMONA: I'm immortal. Take all the time you need.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Apr 15, 2025 8:45:29 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

And so concludes "Here In Manhattan" and it's been quite the ride: we had the birth of Talon and Maggie's child, Dino's return and his machinations, the Trial of Goliath and now the explosive conclusion.

Dino is a fascinating antagonist, I remember speculating that the reason he's so feared among his family is because he has a "burn it all down" mindset, that wasn't too far off but he had to be backed into a corner to get to that point. It's established pretty early on that Dino is clever and can plan ahead but he's set back by two crucial things. One is his temper, also established early considering how terribly he treats the help. That lack of self control is one big reason why his scheme fails. Xanatos despite suffering many setbacks always knew to keep his ego and emotions in check, which is why he ultimately lived to scheme another day and Dino...hasn't.

The second major reason is that while he is crafty, his plans almost always hinge on violence of various degrees, that last bit ties well into the problem he has with his temper. The attempted assassinations on the gang leaders and misdirect them not to mention the kidnapping of Rosie and Pete was smart, but it relied on them blindly retaliating like he would do. Even the kidnapping relied heavily on violent extremes, if he had been more thoughtful he could've used them as hostages for leverage against two major players. But the end goal was always for them to meet a messy end. Thus, once cooler heads prevailed his reputation preceded him. And in one last bit of irony, his past violence came back to haunt him and when it did, he was (presumably) put down like a mad dog. No bonds of La Famiglia were there to protect him.

The conclusion offers a major change up to the status quo. No longer is the Manhattan Clan protecting the city with a secret bond with their few human allies. Now their leader is part of an official task force and for the first time in a long time, gargoyle/human relationships are a big public thing once more. This of course sets the stage for the antagonists' actions in the next arc. One who certainly doesn't want gargoyles and humans on an equal level, and another who's growing distrust will lead to another betrayal.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Apr 15, 2025 4:36:02 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Fourth.

Reread the final chapter of "Here in Manhattan", "Cold Comfort".

This is the second chapter of "Here in Manhattan" where the narration turns out to be addressed to someone in-story, rather than just a private voice-over (the first example was Lexingto's narration in Chapter Eight, which was being sent to Staghart). We only discover that's what it is at the end of the chapter, however, where it's revealed that Coldstone is making a report to Demona, whom he's now working for.

One of the threads in this chapter is Coldstone's response to the outcome of Goliath's hearing, showing why he joined forces with Demona. From his point of view, the outcome of the hearing isn't a true step forward for the gargoyles; it appears to him to be more the humans deciding that the gargoyles could be useful to them, and therefore tolerating them to get their help in crime-fighting (and it doesn't help that every time he tries to discuss the matter with Goliath, something interrupts them). Coldstone's concluded that Goliath is appeasing the humans (if without realizing it), and that Demona's schemes are more truly in the interest of the gargoyle species. As I mentioned before, he's in the wrong here, but believably in the wrong.

We also see the resolution of the Dino Dracon story - with Dino making one last stab at victory (and in a way that shows he's still more at home with blowing things up than with clever planning) - by first, planning to set off bombs at the various police stations in Manhattan and make it look as if the rival crime families were behind it, and second, blowing up the crime families' summit meeting and wiping them out. Both of which are foiled, thanks to the gargoyles - while Dominic apparently shoots down Dino after the latter reveals that he was the one who killed Anthony Dracon (Tony and Antoinette's father, Dino's brother). We don't know if that's really the end of him or not, but even if he survived, he's unlikely to be causing trouble for some time.

One notable moment in this thread is Dino indicating that he'd entered into some sort of alliance with Castaway. We only get a mention of it, and Dino's apparent departure makes it unlikely we'll get any exploration of this partnership any time soon, which is a pity. It would have been worth exploring - especially the fact that Castaway and Dino, while both wanting to get rid of the gargoyles, have very different motives - and, on close inspection, incompatible. Castaway believes that the gargoyles are evil monsters (if with an element of necessary self-delusion in it, to keep himself from confronting his responsibility for Jason's injuries), while Dino wants them gotten rid of as crime-fighters who'll get in his way - which clearly doesn't match Castaway's view. Not to mention that Castaway would be receiving assistance from organized crime - something he'd understandably want to keep secret. There's a possible lost opportunity about this moment, therefore - but we might see it bear fruit in later stories.

Of course, Demona comes out as the real winner here in a sense - she's now controlling the organized crime families through Antoinette, revealed as another of her followers, which could make her even more of a threat now.

And we see Goliath sworn in as a new member of the Gargoyle Task Force - which means that its name takes on a different significance. Originally, the "Gargoyle Task Force" was a police division designed for dealing with gargoyles, back when they were thought to be simply mysterious threatening creatures. Goliath's joining it now offers a new interpretation of its name - a police task force that has a gargoyle in it. (Goliath even gets his own police badge - with a very appropriate number.)

To top it off, we also see the Manhattan clan making some plans for Broadway and Angela's commitment ceremony, something still in the future, but which I imagine we're all looking forward to seeing, as another piece of gargoyle culture (just as we got to see the Wind Ceremony at last in "Dark Ages").

I liked the touch, in Coldstone's narration, of "bloodless as I am, I wish I could be more sanguine" - a piece of rather scholarly word-play, since the word "sanguine", while meaning "hopeful", is also based on a Latin word for "blood". (It reminded me of a passage in Thomas Berger's "Arthur Rex: A Legendary Novel", a retelling of the Arthurian legend, where, in the aftermath of the final battle, King Arthur is telling Sir Bedivere, just before the "returning Excalibur to the lake" scene, that their situation cannot be sanguine when their surroundings are sanguinary (or something like that; it's been a long time since I read the book). Greg Weisman's mentioned having read "Arthur Rex", though I don't know if that passage was an influence on that line of Coldstone's or not.

All in all, a good ending to "Here in Manhattan", and setting up for more events to come, particularly "Gargoyles Quest".

FAVORITE LINES.

GOLIATH: Elisa!

ELISA: Goliath!

HUDSON: Staunch work on that trial, lad!

COLDFIRE: The clan is united again. It is well.

ANGELA: How'd the mission go?

KATANA: Successfully, it appears.

GNASH: Are you kidding? We rocked it!

LEXINGTON: Thrashed the bad guys!

BROADWAY: Saved the hostages!

BROIOKLYN: It was pretty great.


GOLIATH: Something troubles you, brother.

COLDSTONE: Indeed. I fear we tread a dangerous path, allowing the humans to define success or failure for the clan. What if their verdict had gone against you? Would you truly have been content to languish in their dungeons? You ceded control to a potential enemy. Is that how a rhydderch leads?

GOLIATH: Perhaps... not. But I felt the need to test my belief in the possibility of -.

ELISA: Goliath, we really need to talk.

GOLIATH: I am sorry, brother. She is correct. But you and I will continue this soon.

COLDSTONE: And so, another human took him away!


DINO: Guess it's best you learned the truth before the end, huh, pop?

DOMINIC: Whose end, Dino?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Apr 14, 2025 8:30:35 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Third.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Apr 14, 2025 1:38:59 pm EDT from 108.69.72.60

Second
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Apr 14, 2025 11:55:57 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

First!
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Mon, Apr 14, 2025 7:30:27 am EDT from 204.184.178.1