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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending March 24, 2003

Index : Show Images

Re: Fandom dying?
Hey, not last week I got the family down the hall from me re-addicted to Gargs. The dad was a fan when it came out, and his now-16-year-old kid became stuck to it immediately. she was upset that he wouldn't let her stay up past 11 with him to watch the "marathon". (not one on TV, I lent them the tapes, and he wanted to watch every ep strait through...) and the mom is joking that their younger kid, who is not yet a year old, is going to be raised addicted to the show.
so nyah.
Star Wars came out how many years ago, and is still getting fans? "There's a new fan born every minute", is that the expression? *When* was the lord of the rings trilogy written, and they're making movies from the books *NOW* ? Maybe gargoyles isn't quite on the same level with these world-known works, but I think it is of the quality level high enough to "withstand the test of time".

Sunday, March 23, 2003 07:41:11 PM

www.intothematrix.com. Enter the site or click my name. It'll be worth it.
Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:31:40 PM


Today I bought an "Optimus Prime" Bobble Head doll. I WISH they had Gargoyles ones. ;) If they can Do LIBERACE, Hank Williams Sr., The Pink Panther and Ozzy Osbourne, why not Angela, Demona, Cold Stone, Brooklyn, Elisa, Dingo, Lexington or Puck?

BTW> I don't know how to explain it, but sometimes people drawn characters as midget versions that look like they are only a couple feet high... Has anyone ever drawn the Gargoyles as "Mini" Gargoles?

Click the link (my name?) to the pic to see what I mean. well, kinda like that.

If ANYONE did, I'd like to see them... if they are on the net.

You might want to talk to me,
You might want to call,
But Baby you won't hear anything
From me at all.

Battle Beast
CanadaSaturday, March 22, 2003 09:27:57 PM

Re: fandom not dying

The fandom has had its ups and downs over the years, but honestly? I think we're bigger now than we were during Season 2. I've been around basically since the beginning and something that just amazes me about this fandom is its staying power.

And as long as there are reruns, there will be new fans.

(Working on a Gargoyles/Animation fandom e-newspaper. More details to come.)

Saturday, March 22, 2003 09:27:06 PM

KC> Hey! I think I remember you, weren't you a ninja at the 1998 Gathering?
Saturday, March 22, 2003 09:24:34 PM

aarg, sorry for the double post, email me at this address
KC - [firefoxkac@yahoo.com]
Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:09:16 AM

Hello from a long time lurker who remembers this place when it was on capecod.net....Looking for any and all out there who went to past gatherings and can help me out with what you did for wings on your costumes...I'm working on one for AC this year and need some ideas :) And Lord Sloth: Glad to hear it...The decline in interest I sensed in here a while back is why I faded into the background.....glad to hear it's fading back IN to view....
Saturday, March 22, 2003 10:08:33 AM

By the way Gabriel, I really like your idea of Gargoyles being shown and reviewed in classrooms! Unfortunaltly, a lot of people will likely think, "WhAt what WHAT? Your spending your Philosophy classes watching CARTOONS?" It's something to strive for though.

Lord Sloth
Saturday, March 22, 2003 03:29:09 AM

For the last time Gabriel, no you're not.

The idea that the show is dying any more then it did when it was canceled is, IMHO, poppycock. The fact that lots of new people have found their way here, and almost every each one has taken the time to fill Ask Greg up with their own personal laundry lists (which are somewhat similar to everyone else's), should be proof that there is still interest. Some of them even become involved with the fandom here and can be pretty insightful once they pick up on the station 8 vibes.
Now, personal interest will wax, and it will wane. Personally, I haven't watched an episode in quite a while and consequently don't think about it all that often these days (instead I'm finally catching up on the world of Farscape which has some pretty incredible stories). I'm hoping to change that soon and get as much of my college as I can to watch Awakening's with me, and thus I can spread the word; especially to my roommate who says he hates the show, though I think he mostly says that just to spite me. But he WILL see the light, whither he wants to or not. Muhahahaha.
Getting back on topic, thinking back I believe the last time this room was showing a real interest in the details of each episode, was when we were doing our little DCV thing. After that, I think most of us stopped watching since we were waiting to go on with everyone else. Now we've calmed down and moved on to other things, but the interest was still there, not all that long ago.
And it will come again, or I'm a monkey's uncle. We've got a DVD (and maybe more) on the way, a whole new Gathering, a new season of TGS (I've still got to finish any one of the first seasons, but I think I'm liking the way Pendragon is going (I enjoy your writings on that BTW Todd)), and the Executive Producer himself is still very interested in working with and evolving his plans for the show. So, I don't even no why I'm writing so much about this since there's no doubt in my mind that the fandom will remain intact. Hell, even the Thundercats fandom looks quite..."Well Preserved", in a Bilbo Baggins sort of way.
If anyone still needs convincing that the show is still interesting, just pop in one of your tapes (if you have them), and fast forward to a random place and you will more then likely see some of the purest of dramas that exists somewhere in each and every episode. Just watch Demona and Goliath's "break up", or Goliath inadvertently "kill" Elisa by trying to kill Jason, and then think back to when he said, "I will always be there to catch you". Then say this show is getting old, with that still fresh in your mind.

Now I'm tired.

Lord Sloth - [spunkidge13@hotmail.com]
Oakville, ON, Canada
Saturday, March 22, 2003 03:11:07 AM

Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Saturday, March 22, 2003 01:48:39 AM

Since I'm on this train of thought, I wonder how much PLato's "Republic" has influenced the formation of the Gargoyle way of life. For those not familiar, Socrates, largely meant as a joke, said that in the ideal state children would be raised communely, there would be a warrior class, and a philosopher would be king (hahahaha! that's how we know it's a joke). Everything would be controled, form breeding, to who lives when they are born. I didn't get into much detail, mainly because I haven't read it yet, but from what I heard from a friend of mine, whose read it and also seen gargoyles from the CDs I burned for him >:), he tells me that the Gargoyles society resembles the ideal Socratic state a lot.
Friday, March 21, 2003 11:52:39 AM

Well, I first saw Gargoyles back in Middle School. I think wacthed it in secret cause I didn't want anyone to know I was still wacthing cartoons (I didn't even watch cartoons, really, when I was a kid). I was hopelessly addicted from then on (the first one I saw was Awakenings Part five, I think) and the first image I saw was Goliath and Demona flying up to flying thingamajig to get the disk. I thought Goliath was just awesome then and still do today. He's certainly inspired me to start doing a lot of what I continue to do today; namely, read and think (deeply that is :P) about ideas (though that isn't made explicit in the show, I think it is largely implied).

As far as the show dying is concerned. I have no intentions of lettitng it die among me. If and when I'm a professor (either lit. or phil.), I will show it depending on what I am teaching. The Philosophy of History can greatly be discussed from it; the significance of the Home (dwelling) is there; so are embodiment themes (very little though) and so is the Ontological question (the question of the meaning of being); and, my favorite, the question of the Primacy of the Other over the Same. There are so many ideas floating in the show that I don't if Greg and co. knew what all they were writing into it.

You know that phrase you always hear your teacher/professor say, "Everytime I read it, I get something knew out of it." This is true! Granted I haven't watched the show in a while, but everytime I rethink the show, I discover something new philosophically about it. Damn it, I'm gonna write a book on it someday :D:D. And you all get free copies lol. ^_^

Who knows, I might get my students addicted :).
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Friday, March 21, 2003 09:58:52 AM

AIRWALKER - Good point about the New Olympian series. I certainly agree that it wouldn't be a good idea to have the New Olympians' views on gargoyles getting aired to the public during the present-day; the issues about "gargoyles in the city" should be resolved in "Gargoyles" itself and through the actions of Goliath and his clan. It would be poor drama to have the New Olympians be the ones to resolve it instead. (Of course, maybe they wouldn't contribute that much to the gargoyle issue, given that the local gargoyles seem to be a very stay-at-home lot; they didn't even bother showing up to meet Goliath and Angela when they visited New Olympus).

The time gap for the other present-day series is a problem, I'll agree (and one reason why it might make better sense to, if the series gets revived, do it as "Gargoyles 2198"). Kathy once suggested going for simply having it set a few years after the end of the original series, like "The New Batman/Superman Adventures" in relation to "Batman: TAS", but I don't think that that would work as well for "Gargoyles" as it would for "Batman". "Batman" operates in more of a status quo situation (not to mention that Batman himself has no life outside of crime-fighting, which isn't the same for the gargoyles), but "Gargoyles" doesn't.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 21, 2003 07:49:21 AM

"would be happy watching"

Screw the errors, I'm going to bed and I'll take that lecture in the morning.

Troy, NY, USA
Friday, March 21, 2003 12:12:50 AM

Ugh, "that" not taht. Don't need Todd telling me the importance of proofreading.;)

(Conks out, hoping there are no more errors)

Troy, NY, USA
Friday, March 21, 2003 12:09:31 AM

(Looks both ways, then steps out of the shadows)

Quite a few people seem to be coming out to show that Gargoyles isn't dying, I might as well do the same.

I also got hooked on Gargoyles way back on the first episode when I was in 5th/6th grade I think. It still blows my mind how well written the stories were and how much adult stuff thry managed to get away with (Elisa getting shot, Xanatos saying hell in eps.2, Fox pretty much naked after losing the eye of odin, etc.). This was unheard of back in the early/mid 90's compared to most cartoons at the time (maybe even to some anime). It was rare that I would happy watching repeats of anything unless it was good and I find myself watching Gargoyles repeats 4-5 times when they were aired. Then it got cancelled after Goliath Chronicles and I just thought it couldn't end that easy with the gargoyles being accepted that quickly.

Flashing forward to my freshman year in college after getting my laptop from the school (financial aid, thank god), I had the odd notion if there were any Gargoyle pictures on the web. Then I spotted a link for this website and was amazed that I wasn't the only who watched this show. Then I spied the ASk GREG archive and was blown away by how info was on Gargoyles and how much further Greg Weismen planned on taking the show. I occupied my time on reading the archive and TGS (both of which I still haven't finished). So I spent about 1.5-2 years lurking in the comment rooms until now.

Granted, Gargoyles has been gone for awhile now but if I remember correctly, didn't Greg say that the first thing we should shoot for was getting Gargoyles on DVD? The DVD is coming out this year and we just have to buy a lot of copies. That and a lot of other old shows are getting back on TV (He-Man, TMNT, Transformers, etc.) I don't have Toon Disney but I don't think they have any spectacular shows right now. What comes around, goes around. And I still feel hopeful that this show will come back in some way, shape, or form.

Now that I look back, taht was a long first post. I'll try to comment more often so long as it doesn't waste space like the dumb questions that currently overloaded ASK GREG.

Sigh, now I got to get some sleep for college, since all my professors take half a letter grade if you're late.

(Conks out)

Troy, NY, USA
Friday, March 21, 2003 12:06:14 AM

I remember being in middle school or so when gargs first aired, when they had clips showing on the disney afternoon before it aired I looked at it and though "whoa, whatever that thing with the wings is, that's gonna be one cool show" of course "that thing with the wings" was Goliath, I saw Awakening, was intrigued, thought "hey this IS cool" and ultimately became a full-on die hard fan when "reawakening" first aired, (I have this thing for cyborgs you see, goes back to my love of a certain 80's franchise with another group of outcasts led by a charismatic leader, this one going by the name of Optimus Prime) flash forward a few years to 1998 or so and I find out from a friend that she has a friend that can quote gargs verbatim, so I meet her and someone else I find out they're fans of another show I like, Beast wars (which I consider the third member of the great 90's cartoons, alongside gargs and batman) flash forward a few months and we're the closest of friends, and in 200 I bought a poster of Demona and the hunters I then hook up two years later with a local starfleet international chapter, and they become friends, coincidentally this gets me going on a lot of star trek conventions with these guys, it's now 2003 and to date the poster has been signed by not only Greg himself, Greg Guler the character designer, Victor Cook the director and Thom Adcox, but Avery "nokkar" Brooks and Johnathan "Xanatos" frakes so in a way, Gargs has been good for me, and while I miss the series I know this year it's coming out on DVD and if disney has the brains to do a box set then so much the better
shogun raptor
Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:33:43 PM

CHRIS - Welcome! Feel free to comment.

TODD - You wrote: [I'm biased here, but I think that "Pendragon" could work rather well in terms of "independence from Gargoyles", since King Arthur is a very well-known legendary figure. But they'd still have to explain about Griff to the audience.]

PENDRAGON once it gets going does have the strong ability to play seperately from the main GARGOYLES series. (To be honest, any series that doesn't set foot in NYC in the GARGOYLES universe has a good possibility of playing very independently.) The problem as I was thinking about it is that more or less the series would have to start out on the road with Arthur in possession of Excalibur and with Griff. It can be done but it plays better if the main series is around and playing in people's minds to work as a backdrop to this spinoff. Otherwise you have to devote considerable time to explain exactly how they got to the point where they are. It also has a problem built into it - what time internally do you start the series? Do you pick up in 1996 when the journey starts or do you pick a different future point? And if you do what do you do with the timeline gap if you start up later on? GARGOYLES running linear to real time is something I did like about the series but with the show off the air so long it becomes a bit of an obstacle over time.

You wrote: [Good point on keeping our eyes open for the next good thing in animation. I'm still doing that as well.]

I'm doing that too. In terms of domestic animation though I still don't really see it at this point. Like I said before the last interesting original idea I saw was LILO AND STITCH. (Of course it also depends on if we are counting CGI - then I can add in MONSTERS INC, REBOOT, and BEAST WARS S2-3. And those aren't exactly new if I want to get really nitpicky about it. :-) )

You wrote: [At any rate, the New Olympians concept could work on its own because it's based not so much on "Gargoyles"-mythology as classical mythology]

The problem I've always had with a NEW OLYMPIANS series that is set in the GAROGYLES universe is that the moment that they show up in front of the UN it would change the dynamic of the original series. After all how can you hunt Gargoyles and call them animals if for example the New Olympians decide to send a Gargoyle as a representative or decides to help press the case for Gargoyles? New Olympians unveiling themselves is so dramatic and so universe changing that unless it happens in the future (like the arrival of the Space Spawn) its going to have a serious impact on everything. As a contemporary event it does present problems. As something 30-40 years down the line once the situation with Gargoyles and Humans stabalize a bit, then it is a completely different situation.

MATT - You wrote: [A lot of you have been saying that its getting old: no new material, no new plots, characters, lines, etc. and i understand your point, but i don't agree with it.]

Technically it is true; and if we only had the episodes themselves and nothing else, nobody to discuss with, nothing to add to it, essentially no fandom to expand on it, then the show would just be something that we would enjoy and eventually move on to something else from.

You wrote: [First of all, Greg does a good job of keeping us supplied with new ideas and plotlines, and if thats not enough, fanfics are complete stories for you to read.]

ASKGREG, TGS, Fanfiction in general, the Comment Rooms and also MGC are extremely responsible for helping to keep fandom going in my opinion. Its not just the characters of the original series that interest me but also the GARGOYLES Universe and the rules that define it. New ideas, from whatever direction they come from, set in that universe keep the flame going.

You wrote: [I know the chances are not great, but I still believe that some new Gargoyles stories will appear somehow one day.]

I'm sure that the series in some form (either the main series or some sort of spinoff of it) will appear again one day. With all the shows that I thought I would never see again popping up on TV and in comics again, it gives me some hope that GARGOYLES hasn't seen its total end yet.

You wrote: [Maybe it will be a new series, or maybe the comic book will be revived, maybe it'll be a movie and maybe Greg W or someone will write a novel(s).]

This was mentioned in the Newsgroup but let me bring it up here - Disney is reviving its old Mickey Mouse/Donald Duck/Uncle Scrooge line in manga sized graphic novel format. Now this doesn't mean anything towards GARGOYLES but if Disney starts showing some interest in comics again then it is possible that we might one day see some movement towards seeing the series show up in that format.

You wrote: [But it won't happen without us, which is why its so disheartening to hear you guys talk about Gargoyles the way you are. i know you can't help feeling how you feel, but i don't feel you should feel that way. :) if you guys give up on Gargoyles coming back, then we lose support for Gargoyles coming back.]

I wouldn't say that any of us is really giving up on it; completely and total end of the line giving up would probably have us reach the level of interest that we wouldn't even bother to stop by here at all. Everyone who posts and who lurks has some interest still burning to some degree. It might vary from time to time but its always there because it drags us back here to talk about it. Even talking about how it might all be over is some sign of interest.

Personally I think that at this point we should get around to some solution for ASKGREG since that is our only source of new information at this moment. It really has to be cleaned out and not just talked about so that we can get back to restoring it to more active use.

You wrote: [see a gargoyles novel in bookstores.]

I'd love that! Either Graphic Novels or actual Novels or even both. It would be so nice to see.

WINGLESS - You wrote: [Even so, I keep the show alive in my own way. If I get a chance to daydream, or often before going to sleep at night, I have my own little storyline going on in my head(which oddley enough, includes me in the story line, as well as creating my own characters).]

Thank God! I thought I was the only one who did that! :-) I've really got to sit down one of these days and put everything down on paper. I just never seem to have the time; and when I do actually get something written down, it just doesn't seem to read exactly right to me.

DEMONA TAINA - You wrote: [I have every episode on tape in two languages, and I've watched every episode at least a thousand times.]

I've really got to sit down and record the series in Spanish. It just sounds so new everytime I turn it on and flip it over to the Spanish audio. I really hope the DVD keeps a Spanish track on it. (Though I wonder, was the show ever shown in Japan? I'd love to hear the Japanese version of the series if it exists. It would be like watching the PowerPuff Girls in Japanese.)

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:23:37 PM

Hello to all!! Like some of you, I was in the target age range when the show orignially aired, although I was definately on the younger end of it. (I was 9 when it ended in '97) After the show ended I worked on and developed my fanfic (or "stories" as I call them), but oddly enough I didn't think about the actual show for quite a while. I don't know why, I guess my attention just turned to other things. Then a couple of years ago I found some of the online stuff and rediscovered the show. Besides discovering that my "stories" had become a little out of touch with the orignal show (which I decided to revamp and make truer to the show) I discovered I was still in love with the show. I unfortunately don't get Toon Disney, but I do have the movie and two of the episode tapes, and I've found new things from watching from watching them. There are (subtle) things that I've noticed now that I'm older, that I didn't when I was younger. So, I don't think that the fandom is dying out. The show may be a fond memory, never to return to our TVs, but it is still being enjoyed by many people. (I have little sisters who like the tapes and the show was "before their time" so to speak). The face of fandom may be changing since many of us who orginally watched have (or are in the process of) "growing up" and as a result we view the show and its characters in a different light. However, if you ask me that shows the strength of Gargoyles. How many shows out there have those kind of characters, plots, etc. to keep people interested when they are kids and continue to interest them and spark their creativity and imagination as they grow up? Very few. Most shows that I watched when I was younger I have fond memories of, but they don't continue to hold my interest very well when I watch them now. <<Whew!>> That's got to be the longest post I've ever made, but atleast I've put my two cents in on the topic. Chao!
Thursday, March 20, 2003 08:59:46 PM

AIRWALKER - You mentioned the possibility of "The New Olympians" being aired on its own, since the story there can be told without the gargoyles needing to show up. The part that interested me about that was the fact that the concept of the New Olympians had arisen as its own possible series long before "Gargoyles" was even created, so there it indeed would have been independent of "Gargoyles". (At any rate, the New Olympians concept could work on its own because it's based not so much on "Gargoyles"-mythology as classical mythology - the core concept being "What if all those minotaurs and sphinxes and centaurs and other creatures in classical mythology really existed - and what if they were living on a remote island and decided that they finally needed to negotiate with humans instead of hiding from them?" "Pendragon"'s the only other spin-off which would fall into this category, being based on Arthurian legend and particularly the notion of King Arthur's return from Avalon).

Thanks for the folks here urging us to "keep the faith". I plan to watch the whole 65-episode-cycle again this summer, and maybe I'll have some of my earlier enthusiasm towards it then. I hope so.

Thanks in particular for the "submit SENSIBLE questions to Ask Greg" - I still think it's a shame that so many of the questions in that queue are the "trivia ones" (somebody actually submitted a whole row of questions about "Does such-and-such a legendary or fictional character exist in the Gargoyles Universe?", the list including Charlemagne's paladins such as Roland and Dickens's characters, ignoring the fact that Greg had made it clear that, with enough episodes, *everybody* would have gotten in. Of course, I'm not certain that Dickens's characters would have got in - at least, not literally. They might have been referred to, or have had analogues - the way that Coldstone was an analogue to the Frankenstein monster - though. Of course, Greg did also say once that he saw Jean Valjean existing in the Gargoyles Universe).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, March 20, 2003 08:58:41 PM

Hello! I've been lurking around this comment room for a few months now, and I felt that I needed to say something about Gargoyles, and the fandom.

I've been a fan since Gargoyles began back in 1994. I have every episode on tape in two languages, and I've watched every episode at least a thousand times. Am I getting bored with it? Do I still watch it on Toon Disney? Do I still hope that the show will come back? Yes. It's true that I've memorized every single episode in two languages, but every time I watch it, I discover something new. For example, scenes that were edited during the original airing of the show, Vows' two endings, Greg's little revelations... So, the series is not getting old for me. My love for the series is still as strong as ever, maybe even more than before. Yes, I do watch new shows like Samurai Jack and TMNT (don't hurt me) but Gargoyles will always have a place in my heart. I know that the series will come back someday, and when it does, I'll be proud to say that I never gave up hope.

Gargoyles has done so much for me. I love that show so much. It helped me grow as a person, it opened my mind, it changed me. Thanks to Gargoyles, I learned English (I'm a native Spanish speaker) I learned to draw, I learned to write... and I've met so many people from around the world, and it's all thanks to that wonderful show that has stolen my heart.

As for the fandom... I know that most of the fans are getting bored with the series. There hasn't been a new episode for at least six years, and merchandise is so difficult to find. But I know that there are still fans who know that the series will return someday, and the DVD is a start.

So, what can we do? If we are true, loyal fans, then we'll keep the show's spirit alive. Do not let the inevitable stride of time destroy the fandom... the show is timeless, and one day, we will get new episodes.

And we'll be happy. So maybe I'm just hoping for the impossible... But taking into consideration all the terrible shows that Disney has been airing lately, (Teamo Supremo, for example) then I know that they'll be begging for something that will truly grab people, and Gargoyles is precisely that.

Finally, I feel better... let's keep the show alive! :D

Demona Taina - [demona3@hotmail.com]
Ponce, Puerto Rico
Thursday, March 20, 2003 07:18:12 PM

Well, at last on Monday I finally, FINALLY I've got Toon Disney *sort of jumps for joy* however I'm VERY disappointed seeing as how, ironically, they don't show gargoyles anymore! *cries* And to tell the truth there are still some episodes I haven't seen or only partly seen :(

As for what I feel about the dying of the fandom, seeing as it seems everyone has begun to loose interest in the show... as long as people write fanfictions... as long as people visit the chat rooms, comment on the show and other things in the comment rooms, keep asking Greg SENSIBLE questions, the flames will keep burning and I hope it keeps burning for at least another year where gargoyles will have reached the big 1-0.

Also look at other cult followings like Transformers and Cowboy Beebop. Transformers has been around for TWENTY years and it's still going stong... though it did get new TV shows, which might have contributed and Cowboy Beebop only had 26 episodes and that's extremely popular even though its only five years old.

But to me gargoyles has done so much for me than meer entertainment, it's helped me to improve my writing, heck the show got me more into reading all kinds of mythology stories and the shows also enabled me to meet with people who I can share views with, learn from and allow me to be part of something magical.

It's also allowed me to meet people I never thought I would EVER even say one word too, but now I have and my life feels so much more pleasent ;)(you Americans are great, can't stand your accents, but you're great either way.:P)

Hopefully I've got my point through, if not, back to the drawing board.

Thursday, March 20, 2003 04:34:35 PM

Hi All. I don't post here as often as I used to(cept maybe for the top 10 thing). Admittedly, I haven't watched an episode in about a year. The show hasn't been on Canadian TV for over 2 years(sigh) so it's no longer convenient to just sit down and watch, without digging out a tape to watch. Even so, I keep the show alive in my own way. If I get a chance to daydream, or often before going to sleep at night, I have my own little storyline going on in my head(which oddley enough, includes me in the story line, as well as creating my own characters). That way I keep the show alive. I imagine those of you who write garg fanfic manage to do the same thing. The Gargoyles characters are stronger and more vivid than any other show I've watched-the characters have taken on a life of their own, and frankly, I want to keep it alive. If not on TV, then in my own way. And don't forget, the forthcoming DVD might well help matters as well(now that I have a player, it will be an instant buy the day it comes out ;o)

I've also got myself a DVD burner, and when I get a chance to figure out how to use it, I'll transfer my tapes to DVD and likely be more inclined to watch the other episodes as well(since I don't want to wear out my tapes).

Anyway, that's all from me. Feel free to call me crazy-but that's my take on things.

Wingless - [canclan@rogers.com]
Thursday, March 20, 2003 03:29:10 PM

well, i'll admit that my fanaticism of Gargoyles has waxed and waned many times over the last 9 years. sometimes i feel like the world's biggest fan and other times i feel like the series was just a phase in my past. but i don't find this to be a negative thing. on the contrary, the fact that i keep coming back to the series says something about the series itself. this is an incredible show!
alot of you have been saying that its getting old: no new material, no new plots, characters, lines, etc. and i understand your point, but i don't agree with it. first of all, Greg does a good job of keeping us supplied with new ideas and plotlines, and if thats not enough, fanfics are complete stories for you to read. but for me, the best thing is just REALLY watching the episodes. i watch a particular episode maybe once a year, and when i do, i scrutinize it. i already know every line and the whole plot so instead of paying attention to that i look at the background, watch characters when i usually wouldn't, think about certain events that Greg has provided special insight into, etc. watching an episode this way, i almost ALWAYS see something new, something exciting!
even if new episodes never air, i'll still be able to watch the series and be entertained. they only get old to me if i watch them too much. and for the record, i know the chances are not great, but i still believe that some new Gargoyles stories will appear somehow one day. maybe it will be a new series, or maybe the comic book will be revived, maybe it'll be a movie and maybe Greg W or someone will write a novel(s). however it happens, i really think it'll happen, but it won't happen without us, which is why its so disheartening to hear you guys talk about Gargoyles the way you are. i know you can't help feeling how you feel, but i don't feel you should feel that way. :) if you guys give up on Gargoyles coming back, then we lose support for Gargoyles coming back.
i know gargoyles isn't always the most important thing in our lives, but we know that we love it, and we can't just give up on it. keep the faith guys, it'll be worth it one day when we flip the tv on and see a new Garg episode or see a gargoyles novel in bookstores.

Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:31:57 PM

The six spin-offs that Greg Weisman proposed at one point or another are:

1. TIMEDANCER: The basic notion behind that one was that the Phoenix Gate isn't gone for good after all; it reappears in modern-day New York and engulfs Brooklyn in its flame, whisking him off into the past (10th century Scotland, to be precise, where he has to protect Mary and Finella from Constantine's soldiers). Then it keeps on reappearing and depositing him in another point on the time-line, past or future, disappearing before he can grab it, for the next forty years of his life. Finally it returns him to New York five minutes after he left - but now he's not only forty years older, but along the way acquired a mate (Katana, from the Ishimura clan in feudal times), two children named Nashville and Tachi (Nashville's the gargoyle equivalent of nine years old and Tachi hasn't hatched yet), and a gargoyle beast named Fu-Dog. His new family settles in with Goliath's clan.

2. GARGOYLES 2198: In the year 2198, the Space-Spawn whom Nokkar's people are at war with finally reach Earth and conquer it. A few gargoyles (including Samson, a descendant of Goliath through Broadway and Angela, and Delilah, a descendant of the original Delilah, as well as Demona and Brooklyn - who was deposited in 2198 by the Phoenix Gate in "Timedancer") team up with Owen, Nokkar, and one or two others (such as a couple of Lexington-look-alike robots) to find a way of liberating the planet. (Greg Weisman gave a detailed description of it at "Ask Greg").

3. DARK AGES: A prequel-series dealing with the adventures of the Wyvern clan before the Wyvern massacre, beginning in 971 when Prince Malcolm first met them and started building Castle Wyvern.

4. THE NEW OLYMPIANS: The New Olympians finally make contact with the outside world; the major characters include not only Taurus and Talos from the original episode, but also a young human named Terry Chung who made contact with them and was the catalyst for their decision, and a female New Olympian named Sphinx, the two of whom get romantically involved.

5. PENDRAGON: King Arthur and Griff's search for Merlin, during which they come into conflict with the Illuminati Society (whose leader, Mr. Duval, is really Sir Percival, one of King Arthur's former knights who survived into modern times through his guardianship of the Holy Grail). Percival/Duval's estranged wife Blanchefleur joins up with Arthur and Griff on their adventures as a third regular.

6. BAD GUYS: A group of semi-reformed antagonists (Dingo, Matrix, Yama, Fang, and Robyn Canmore) get recruited by a mysterious figure known only as the Director (who doesn't give them a choice on the matter, actually) to serve as trouble-shooters, Robyn being the one in immediate charge of the team.

JURGAN - Good point on keeping our eyes open for the next good thing in animation. I'm still doing that as well.

AIRWALKER - I'm biased here, but I think that "Pendragon" could work rather well in terms of "independence from Gargoyles", since King Arthur is a very well-known legendary figure. But they'd still have to explain about Griff to the audience.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, March 20, 2003 07:47:45 AM

I'm new here and I don't know if my comment is welcome. I live in the UK and even though I started watching gargoyles in 1996 I still havn't seen all of the episodes. For some reason I don't think the show is on toon disney over here and is only shown disney channel at 12.30 AM and they don't even advertise it. And it's normally on for a few weeks and then it stops for months. And it seems the only series they show is the goliath chronicles.

I don't know anything about the spin off shows that were mentioned. can someone explanin them?
Chris Fitzroy - [Fitzro2001@aol.com]
EnglandThursday, March 20, 2003 03:28:45 AM

Blaise> <<I hope to eventually get some action figures, though with the way things are now that seems like a distant dream.>>
Yeah, cuz I keep forgetting. ;)

Bud-Clare - [budclare@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:38:49 PM

TODD - You wrote: [I've been finding myself leaning in this direction increasingly that to me, "Gargoyles" is increasingly turning into more of a fond memory of a dead series, something which I still think highly of but am moving away from.]

That isn't exactly something unnatural given the fact that there hasn't been any new material appearing and it doesn't look like any is going to show up anytime soon either. I have my periods of varying interest also; but I'm never really lost complete interest in the series or its possibilities. I think that there are enough loose ends and story possibilities to keep the show in the back of my mind if nothing else, even if I don't really actually sit down and watch many of the episodes that much anymore.

TGS (when it comes out :-) ) helps a little bit. And even if its a "dead" series now, we could say the same about a ton of other series that still hold people's interest even without new material coming out. Robotech/Macross is a good example.

ED - You wrote: [The truth is, I very seldom watch the series now.]

I don't really watch the series that much anymore either. I will flip once in a while to TOON DISNEY to see which episode is on and will tend to watch if its something I really enjoyed or if I'm just in the mood. Time is also a factor; I don't have as much as I used to and I've always had other interests besides just watching GARGOYLES.

But the idea still interests me and so do the characters. Even without new material, the situations, characters, and ideas don't come off stale to me when I think about them. I haven't had my fill of it yet.

JURGAN - You wrote: [My main concern is that, while we're all here lamenting about an old show, the next great work of animation could be coming out right now, and we'll miss the whole thing.]

I don't really think I'd miss the next big thing in animation if I'm keep up with my interest in GARGOYLES; I don't have a problem being a fan of several shows at once or latching onto and devoting some attention to a new thing.

So far I think that in the long term Animation is making a comeback, particularly with Anime making a dent in how animation is being understood and marketed. Toonami and Adult Swim are having an effect; I never thought in a million years that Rurouni Kenshin would make it onto American TV but there it is.

And I'm always willing to watch something new; but I also always have a place for an old favorite too. (That's one of the reasons I still keep watching TENCHI too. :-) )

JIMMY - You wrote: [I was also always skeptical about the possibilities of the series being revised. The longer it takes, the harder it will be for the original series to be revived.]

True; but other series manage to make it back in some way or another. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is back, Robotech just got a new comic series, Japanese Transformers are on TV, He-Man's around, Superfrien.....uh, the Justice League :-) is on and so on and so forth. Its true that they had bigger fandoms and other various circumstances around them but the point is that they are series that looked completely dead forever but have made it back to TV. (And if we count comic revivals then Thundercats and GI Joe can be added to the list.) I do agree that realistically, a skeptical outlook is probably the one thats closest to the truth. Its doubtful that we'll see the original series revived anytime soon but then again a part of me looks at my argument above and get a little hopeful. Its not like Disney really has any new ideas to play around with except for Lilo and Stitch. And aren't they making a show for that too?

You wrote: [But I still have hope for spin-offs. I think aside from Dark ages and 2198 (the former moreso than the latter) there is very little chance of Greg's other ideas to come to fruition.]

I think that G2198 is the most realistic one to have a chance at this point. And while I would be sad to not see the original series again, alot of it would carry over into this spin-off. After all at the very least we get more Demona, Macbeth, and Brooklyn stories.

Bad Guys could be equal to it in chances due only to the fact that some work was actually done with it and it was developed to a certain extent. The New Olympians also has a good chance in that it is almost completely unrelated to the original series and if Gargoyles don't show up it could even be presented as an entirely new universe, a completely independent show. Dark Ages could be done in theory and it would be an almost revival in that it would be dealing more or less with the main cast of the original series; but I'm skeptical that Disney would green light a prequel that is heavily tied into an existing cancelled series over doing a new version of the series itself or a sequel.

It would be interesting to see if they could do something with Pendragon, or Timedancer. Both could be largely independent from the main series although they are both hard to start off without really having the original series around as a reference point. Timedancer really has a problem in that not only does it start out in the original series, it also ends there too. But it would be interesting to see. Although could a domestically produced animated tv series realistically deal with the conflict in world view between a 16th century samurai warrior and a 20th century New Yorker? After all if you don't water it down, Japanese warrior code is radically different from 20th century understanding; even if Brooklyn stuck with 10th century Scot instincts, its still a radical difference from that too.

Airwalker - [airwalker9999@yahoo.com]
Brooklyn, NY
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:10:58 PM

I'm with Jurgan. I was probably 13 or 14 when Gargoyles was taken off the air, but I stopped watching it when Goliath Chronicles came on. I didn't know why the new episodes sucked, I just knew it was really lame and not worth my saturday mornings anymore.
I was also always skeptical about the possibilities of the series being revised. The longer it takes, the harder it will be for the original series to be revived. But I still have hope for spin-offs. I think aside from Dark ages and 2198 (the former moreso than the latter) there is very little chance of Greg's other ideas to come to fruition.

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:10:16 PM

****A TV-set in the corner flicks on. Displayed on the screen is Blaise--only he's monochrome. Black-n-white Blaise starts warbling "Memories." After a few verses, a fully colored Blaise walks into the Room through the door and flicks off the TV.**** Man, I can't believe how young I looked then. :-)

GARGOYLES AND THE FLAME OF FANDOM> Well, I can only speak for myself in this regard (duh, Blaise...).
For me, the flame naturally burned brightest when the show was still alive and active (the second season especiallY). After that, like all my other interests (various movies/musicals/books etc.), there are periods where my interest goes towards the back burner, and periods where it burns bright once more. In regards to GARGOYLES, right now is one of those times.
I've been going through the ASK GREG archives reading Greg's rambles on the episodes and some of my own (those I can actually find, anyway...). I find some comments and thoughts I had about an episode as recent as six months ago and find that I have changed my mind.
Do I watch the eps constantly. No. In fact right now I'm waiting for the DCV to kick up again. And frankly, that makes the times I watch them that much more special to me. And even then, I practically think about the show constantly. Not every day, but almost. And I find that I sometimes keep the stories fresh by thinking of different ways in which they could be told (e.g., an old storyteller telling a group of people around a communal fire the exploits of these "mythic heroes"). Or in trying to imagine the things hinted at in ASK GREG (mostly spin-off stuff).
Also, out of a desire for new stimuli (my next GARGOYLES fix) I've been steadily collecting merchandise. Heck, I've been trying to collect the books (aimed at children) that they've put out, and most of the time I gripe about how far off they are from the tone of the series (just ask me about "Stone Warriors Rule!" or have me go off on a diatribe about the silliness of the stats given in "Meet the Characters"). I hope to eventually get some action figures, though with the way things are now that seems like a distant dream.
And of course there's always The Gathering to help fan the flame. Naturally, it doesn't look like I will be able to attend this year (again...) but it is always nice to know that people attend, and my memories of the 2001 con in LA are all very happy ones.
And that's my pointless, little, self-centered story of what goes on in my head. I'm a pathetic fanboy, I know.

See you all when I have something else to say. Until then, farewell. ****The TV flicks on again, showing a rather cross Monochrome Blaise. He reaches out of the set, grabs Colored Blaise, and drags him into the TV. The set clicks off.****

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 09:35:48 PM

I like trying to guess the episode before the previews end, although it's kind of hard during the Avalon Mists, when almost every episode plays the "Avalon sends ye where ye need to be" clip. But I don't get Toon Disney, so it rarely comes up anyway. As for the actual question: I can't honestly say that I ever really thought of Gargoyles as something that had a big chance of "coming back." I'm different than most of the people here, in that I was in Gargoyles's target demographic at the time it was on. It went off the air when I was fourteen (if you count the Goliath Chronicles, and I'd not made the distinction at the time, so I did). I didn't know anything about corporate politics or creative control back then. When it left, it was gone. I'd taped Awakenings off TV, but other than that, I didn't have any of them left to view, and so it mostly faded out of my mind. I'd think back with wistful fondness from time to time on good memories. The ending of City of Stone, for instance, always remained vivid in my mind, even if the Scottish history part faded into obscurity. It wasn't until I discovered fanfic that I started really thinking over Gargoyles again. I'd always assumed there had to be some out there. I even remember thinking up a couple very bad ideas during the lackluster TGC era (even then, I realized it wasn't going too well). Then, one day about a year ago, I checked the fanfiction.net Gargoyles section just as Christine Morgan started posting her fics. Then I bought tapes of the episodes on ebay, and then I went to The Gathering. Greg succeeded in inspiring me to believe that it could come back, at least at the time, but I was always pretty skeptical. It's been such a long gap that logistical concerns with the continuity (i.e., what have Goliath and company been doing the last seven years?) are major problems. If Gargoyles or any of its potential spinoffs arrived on TV, I'd do my best to see them (although if they were on Toon Disney, it'd be problematic). I also still enjoy discussing it here, seeing as I haven't been doing so nonstop for the past several years like I imagine some of you have. The fandom is all new to me, and there's still lots of fanfiction I could read, so much of it is still fresh. However, I don't really expect the show to revive anytime soon, and if it does, it may be a vastly different form (2198, for example). If it does, great, but if not, then I won't feel that bad about it. My main concern is that, while we're all here lamenting about an old show, the next great work of animation could be coming out right now, and we'll miss the whole thing. Personally, I think animation is starting on a comeback, and rather than worry about an old favorite, we should hope that something new could appear that will be just as good.
Jurgan - [jurgan6@yahoo.com]
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 07:51:12 PM

Todd: I feel exactly the same way you do. Gargoyles plays 2 or 3 times a day here, and I used to interrupt whatever I was doing to sit down and watch it. Now it just feels less and less entertaining each time. I rarely even turn to toon disney unless its one of my absolute favorite episodes, and I can tell which it is after a few FRAMES because I've seen them all so many times.

There aren't new subtleties to discover, nothing that makes it fresh. What I wouldn't give for new episodes...

Wednesday, March 19, 2003 03:36:36 PM

*fades in*
Dunno if this is allowed or anything, but I'm really melancholic at the moment. My grandpa was diagnosed with cancer, then after surgery his lungs collapsed and he went into a coma. I dunno what's going to happen. I'm five hours away at school, so it's not like I can rush over there. :/ I just feel a bit....darkened.

I don't mean to be exclusionary or anything, but could the religious in the room pray for him please? Thanks.

*fades out*
Gabriel "gaygoyle"
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 12:37:05 PM

The truth is, I very seldom watch the series now. I haven't watched a new episode for the best part of a year, and maybe longer. And some episodes I haven't watched for several years. There are a couple of episodes I never managed to tape ("Monsters", the complete "Awakening" rather than the cut-down movie version) and a few more where I've had the episodes recorded but then, for one reason or another, lost them. And of course, for two thirds of the year I don't have ready access to a television, leave alone a video recorder. I still enjoy TGS and Ask Greg, but unless new episodes come out I think I've had my fill really.
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 07:34:16 AM

Yep, that was a "Tailspin" reference.
Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, March 19, 2003 07:18:58 AM

Oh, the TGS site is located at http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:37:02 PM

Attention all "Gargoyles" fans.

We are currently looking to recruit new editors for "The Gargoyles Saga". For those of you who don't know, TGS is a group based fanfiction team which for the past several years has been continuing to write fanfic based on "Gargoyles" and the staff's interpretation of Greg Weisman's Master Plan for the series.

Right now we have several series in development. The fourth season of "Pendragon" and the first season "Bad Guys" are next in line followed by the fourth season of "Gargoyles" and the fifth and final season of "Timedancer".

Any editors should of course have a firm grasp on the English language, and some familiarity with the TGS Universe. Don't worry about the latter if you feel it's not a strong point, as there will be plenty of oppurtunities to familiarize yourself with it.

All applicants should e-mail me at madoc55@yahoo.com

Thank you, and good luck.

Greg Bishansky, Head of Edits

Greg Bishansky - [madoc55@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:36:01 PM

Todd, I often feel like that when I go extended periods of time without watching it, but at least for me it comes back after an episode. Actually makes me appreciate it more when I come back to it after a while.

And by the way, would that 'grease and spoon' thing be a TaleSpin reference? Loved that show.

Firestone - [intellectualproperty@hotmail.com]
Tuesday, March 18, 2003 08:49:28 PM

This is something that I realized while watching my tape of "The Hound of Ulster" yesterday. I still enjoyed the episode, but at the same time, I realized in the course of it that it felt "over-and-done-with" - and by that, I mean not so much the episode as "Gargoyles" itself. I've been finding myself leaning in this direction increasingly - it has been six years since the series ended, after all - that to me, "Gargoyles" is increasingly turning into more of a fond memory of a dead series, something which I still think highly of but am moving away from. Maybe I'll feel differently when I dig out my "Gargoyles" tapes this summer and watch the whole series from "Awakening" to "Hunter's Moon" all over again, but I'm starting to doubt it.

I don't know how the rest of the room feels on this issue (for all that I know, I might get tarred and feathered - or covered with grease and plastic spoons if nobody can find the tar and feathers - for my heretical statement :) ), but I did think that I should say it (it might wake things up a little, if nothing else).

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 18, 2003 06:40:37 PM

Happy Day After St. Patrick's Day, for those of us who are up late writing essays that are due today. ;)

(My flimsy excuses for procrastinating are becoming more transparent with each passing hour. I've even taken to posting fairly bizarre comments on the livejournals of people I barely know.)

Tuesday, March 18, 2003 03:52:48 AM

Yes, Yes! Happy St. Patrick's day! The Luck of the Irish!

All that aside, I am going out now to have a pint of green beer with friends. Can't wait ;)


Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, March 17, 2003 07:50:07 PM

Happy St. Patrick's Day, everyone. (I made a special color and image change for this day only; tomorrow it gets back to normal).

Watched my tape of "The Hound of Ulster" today to mark the day. I don't have anything new to say about it, though.

Todd Jensen - [merlyn1@mindspring.com]
St. Louis, MO
Monday, March 17, 2003 06:49:00 PM

Happy St. Pattys Day , even to the non-Irish :)
Don't get to $@#%^& faced.
Also I would like to add, if everyone could say a small prayer for the safety of our soliders going over to war. danke

Monday, March 17, 2003 06:40:25 PM

Darn! Missed by a Toman. :)


Battle Beast
Monday, March 17, 2003 10:10:32 AM

:: claims the last spot ::


Patrick Toman
Monday, March 17, 2003 07:07:44 AM

Monday, March 17, 2003 06:24:48 AM

Monday, March 17, 2003 04:36:00 AM

Seven for Sloths naturally

Lord Sloth
Monday, March 17, 2003 03:01:28 AM

6th in the name of the Fay!


Monday, March 17, 2003 02:51:48 AM

5th in the name of cute fluffy werewolf pups everywhere!
Monday, March 17, 2003 02:49:55 AM

Knoxville - [knox@ketnar.org]
Monday, March 17, 2003 01:19:53 AM

Monday, March 17, 2003 12:21:07 AM

He he. Second.
Monday, March 17, 2003 12:18:07 AM

[looks around] First! :D
Demona Taina - [demona3@hotmail.com]
Ponce, Puerto Rico
Monday, March 17, 2003 12:00:11 AM