Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending March 7, 2005

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Re: cryptozoology

I don't quite buy plesiosaurs in freshwater lakes, but on the other hand, it's looking more and more like they've found a new great ape the 'bili ape' in africa -- they've got photo trap pictures and DNA collected, nests found, apes observed in the wild often enough to identify individual animals. If an ape the size of a small gorilla can escape detection until this day and age, who knows what else is out there?

There's a couple of other critters out there that are likely to exist that haven't been officially "discovered" yet -- orang pendak come to mind as being at just about the top of the list -- but nessie and her kin? Naaaah. In all this time, if nothing else, a dead one would have washed ashore somewhere.

Leva
Leva
Sunday, March 6, 2005 05:47:20 PM
IP: 162.42.86.196

:: a frog hops in, eats the cricket ::

Ew, gross. Or rather, a dozen dozen...

144 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick
Sunday, March 6, 2005 10:28:21 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

*chirp... chirp...*
cricket
Sunday, March 6, 2005 12:30:49 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

One of the Mayan/Aztec gods, Queatzlcoatyl/Kulkulcan was represented as a long serpent as feathered wings. Like eastern dragons he was credited with bringing knowledge and wisdom to the MesoAmericans. He was also agianst human sacrifice, putting him at odds with western dragons (and the rest of Mayan/Aztec pantheon).

As for whether or not these creatures exist, I fear we may not know for sure until their habitats are turned into multi-million dollar lake front housing and the yuppies start complaining about lake monsters getting into their trash.
CKayote - [CKayote@worldnet.att.net]
Orlando, FL
Saturday, March 5, 2005 12:40:11 PM
IP: 64.192.79.127

Whitbourne> well put. and i think all of us can agree that wonder and respect for nature and the need to perform conservation are important.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Saturday, March 5, 2005 11:45:18 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

"Bambi"> I just watched the film both straight and with the "commentary" track last night. I think Mr. Adcox may be doing two voices, but I'm not entirely sure. One of the voices that he definitely does is Sydney Franklin, who is credited as something like "Artistic Consultant".

I believe that at this point in the Disney studio history, there indeed was a stenographer in the room during story sessions recording what was said for future use. At the time, this may have been less difficult and less expensive than taping these sessions.

Gargoyles-wise, also look for the "Trek voice actor that got away" - Mr. Patrick Stewart - Doing the intro and closing sequences for the story session notes. Mr. Stewart will be voicing Bambi's father in the DTV sequel "Bambi and the Great Prince of the Forest". He also provides a voice in the new dub of Miyazaki's "Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind".

Demonskrye - [<---Jim Hill Media]
Saturday, March 5, 2005 10:23:50 AM
IP: 146.115.115.131

There's another Canadian "Nessie"; Lake Memphremagog in the Eastern Townships of Quebec supposedly hosts "Mumphry", not as famous as Ogopogo but still a local legend. And of course, New York State has Champ in Lake Champlain, as well.

So yeah, North America doesn't do too shabby in strange lake-creature sightings. Whether they're real or not - who knows? Personally, I think they're just as important as myths than as cryptozoological finds, if only in that they inspire wonder in the natural world. I kind of wish that people would get as excited about the species that we know exist already for the help that would give our conservation efforts, but healthy curiousity about plesiosaurs and other such animals doesn't hurt anyone.

As long as no one gets any ideas to dredge or drain the lakes or anything like that, cause that'd just suck.
Whitbourne
Saturday, March 5, 2005 06:24:00 AM
IP: 142.177.168.106

matt: that might be true, but most skeptics end up becoming believers. I definately believe there have been many steps that have been taken to find out if nessie is real or not. But sadly, the proof is more harder to come by then the lies.
dan
Saturday, March 5, 2005 01:44:28 AM
IP: 68.42.18.157

hmmph...

nessies, nessies everywhere and not a shred of proof...
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Saturday, March 5, 2005 01:06:33 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

DAN SAID: "I read somewere that they did find somethingi in the loch, and a lake in canada. I don't remember the name, but i believe it's in british columbia."

Yah, that's lake Okanogan, B.C. (Near my home town!) It's about 80 miles long and up to 110 feet deep. It's burried deep in the Okanogan Valley and man, you should come during Peach season!!!

"Canada's most famous water monster is Ogopogo of Lake Okanagan in the south central interior of British Columbia. Although Indian legends support a monster living in Okanagan Lake long before white men arrived in this country, Ogopogo is very much a present day phenomenon. Each year, sightings are reported of a creature some 20 to 50 feet long, with a horse shaped head and an undulating serpent like body! Okanagan Lake is about 80 miles long extending from Vernon at the north end to Penticton in the south with the fast growing city of Kelowna (My birth city!) in the center. Sightings have been reported throughout the length of the lake but the monster appears to favour an area just south of Kelowna in waters near Peachland."

(I got this from a website... http://www.tourcanada.com/ogopogo.htm or clicky my name.)

So... "Did you ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie, Willy?"

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Saturday, March 5, 2005 12:13:05 AM
IP: 198.53.28.99

IRC GOLIATH - As long as they don't have the gargoyles undergoing comical distortions when angry or excited. :)

From what I've read, most of the prehistoric animal bones that inspired mythical creatures were things like woolly mammoths and other Cenozoic mammals rather than dinosaurs. But I have read about the influence that they had (a couple of years ago, there was an article about the impact that fossils had on depicting monsters in Greek mythological art in "Archaeology Odyssey").

TGS Pendragon's Mary Sefton would definitely have liked to meet those Native Americans that respected wolves.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Friday, March 4, 2005 07:26:36 PM
IP: 4.245.17.28

LMAO! I did. Good grief! Sorry Patrick :)
SIREN
Friday, March 4, 2005 04:50:44 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

I think Siren mistakenly signed my name to her post.
Patrick
Friday, March 4, 2005 03:02:18 PM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I always forget something...

And the whole, they dug up dinosaurs and said they were dragons would hold a little more water if we could actually find fossils ancient people dug up. You think those kind of things would be kept by SOME culture. Like "unicorn horns". Traders would have narwal horns and say they belonged to a unicorn. We have sceptors, wands, jewelry, even a throne made out of these tusks, but where are the dinosaur bones that ancient people are suppost to have dug up?
Siren
Friday, March 4, 2005 02:42:47 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Patrick>Actually, many pteradon skulls look like birds. Long pointed beak. Not to mention the bones are hollow. No lizard or reptile had hollow bones. Also the bones were very rarely found today full intact, so the likelihood of finding a skeleton already put together is rare. And if they found a mix of bones, like most do, how are they to know a wing bone isn't actually a rib bone? Look at the iguanadons. They were thought to drag their bellies across the ground and they had thought they had a horn on the tip of their nose. We now know they walked with her bodies high and their legs under them, rather then to the sides. And we know that horn was actually a thumb. I don't think ancient people would find a pteradon skeleton and say, "Yup, dragon.". It's too bird like. And no dragons have that long beak. Most have a more square shape jaws. If anything, allosaurs and t-rex would be better skulls for a dragon.
Patrick
Friday, March 4, 2005 02:40:34 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Since anime is becoming more and more popular here in the United States, what about a Gargoyles manga? :D Couple of chapters a month in Shounen Jump or something.
IRC Goliath - [goliath1 (at) pacbell [dot] net]
Friday, March 4, 2005 01:27:30 PM
IP: 209.234.142.80

::Drive by linking::
And every day they keep finding new oddities among the life forms that inhabit this planet. Isn't it a wonderous place? "Unusual life forms found in Atlantic".

Have a great weekend! And don't forget to register for the Gathering!

kathy
Friday, March 4, 2005 12:31:31 PM
IP: 66.82.9.41

Dragons> It seems that the western ideal of dragons appears to be taking up the majority of the school of thought. The Estern Dragon was generally reveared. Depending on the region you were in, there were four types of dragons, one for each element. Eastern Dragons had scales, feathers, and fur, again depending on the region. The Dragon was the most commonly used symbol of royalty amung the eastern nations as it was revered for it's wisdom. Western Dragons have the more verocious reputation. The Western dragon finds it origins in Greek Mythology. When (enter gods name here, as I can't remember it), the Mate to Echidna, decided to rebel against Zues, he was trapped under a mountain. He(mate to Echidna), actually had a head that spewed fire, he became the first volcano. He was the father of the first dragon. As Echidna was the nother of all monsters, the poor thing was tormented and eventually killed by Hercules, not the TV version. And that's just the greek myth. There are several others. Western myth also has St. George the Dragon Slayer. I really don't know to much about him, so I'm just gonna leave it at that. That's all I have for now.
Phoenyx
Memphis, TN, USA
Friday, March 4, 2005 11:18:15 AM
IP: 135.214.150.125

Siren > As I've heard it explained, the early people finding the huge fossil bones would compare them to what they knew. If the skull looks similar to a lizard skull, it must have come from a large reptile. Find a pterodactyl fossil, now you've got a large reptile with wings. Add a little imagination and before long you've got a dragon.

And yes, I've read the same thing about the mastadon and mammoth remains being mistaken for giants or cyclops. In some instances, the bones were even re-arranged to form a human form and reburied by early man... leading to even more confusion for the civilizations that came later and unearthed them again.
Patrick
Friday, March 4, 2005 11:14:33 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I also meant to add...

Other cultures differ from our more well known cultures and beliefs. In Europe and in America since the first Pilgrims got here, wolves have been hated. Often said to be evil in fairytales like Peter and the Wolf and Red Riding Hood. And of course, the werewolf. They have always gotten a bad rap.
But look at Native American culture. They see wolves as brothers. They are their spirit guides who help them in a hunt. Many hunting techniques used by the Native Americans were learned by observing wolves. They also kept them as pets. And only for certain rituals was it okay to kill a wolf.
Native American dragons are also like the wolf, they were wise and spirit guides.

Culture has provent that just because different cultures have different ideas on behaviour doesn't mean that the animals are any different from one country to another.

Also, in my studies, I have never seen a fully furred or feathered dragon. In Asia, they have some fur-like look to them around their cheeks and at the end of their tail, but overall, all culture's dragons have scales.
Siren
Friday, March 4, 2005 10:31:30 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Asian culture is vastly different then any other culture. Their dragons were wise and mystical. While dragons of Europe were princess eating, gold hoarding monsters.

In many Asian cultures and religions, rats are sacred. There are several temples devoted to rats and wild rats live and breed in huge numbers. The people there believe that their family members turn into rats when they die. People bring them bowls of fresh milk and food. And if you step on a rat and injure or kill it while in the temple, you are required to have a gold rat statue made and place it in the temple to honor the animal.
While in Europe and most other places in the world, rats are hated. They are exterminated in large numbers. They carry many dieases and eat our crops. To kill millions a year is a great thing.

Asian culture compared to other cultures has always differed drastically. So having a peaceful dragon makes sense for Asia, as most of their animal dieties are peaceful and wise.
Siren
Friday, March 4, 2005 10:26:08 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

dragons> depending on the culture and how you define a "dragon" some of them were created to have fur and feathers. and its merely a coincidence that dragon myths across the world share a couple common traits, they are mostly very different. Aztec, European and Chinese dragons have vastly different body structure, motivations, and places in religion and culture.

Nessie/sonar> people will see what they want to see. until they bring something to the scientific community that everyone can see they will have to live with their fringe status. when people disbelieved that the platypus existed, the believers didn't come back with story or a sonar blip or anything of that nature. they brought back a body. as Siren said, the scientific community went over it to prove it wasn't a hoax and now it happily has its place in any encyclopedia of animals. no physical evidence, and its gonna be hard to be taken seriously.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Friday, March 4, 2005 09:34:40 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

whaling COUNTRY, I meant. Sometimes I type too fast for my own good.

Also on Nessie, believe it or not, I am mostly a non-believer. It's a fanciful theory that such a creature exists in THAT lake. But I'm not going to rule it out 100%.
Siren
Friday, March 4, 2005 09:21:33 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Patrick>But bones don't tell us the skin of an animal. How is it that if it was bones they dug up, why so many cultures looked at the fossils and said it was scaley, breathe fire, and had wings? Why not look at those bones and put fur or feathers on them?

Though the bone theory has some standing, I do agree with. For instance, cyclops. It is likely they found mammoth and mastadon skulls. In the middle of the skull is one very large hole, this is where the trunk was connected with tendons and muscle. So in all likelyhood, they found a mammoth skull with a big hole on the front and thought it to be a giant with one eye.

And sonar has picked up large moving objests that were not schools of fish in the Loch. Several years ago, Discovery featured a big-to-do special about trying to reveal what, if anything, is in the Loch. Several times the team got a hit on the sonar that did not appear to be a school of fish.
And some of the other lake monsters' lakes connect to the ocean, so they don't have to have a breeding population within that lake to survive, if they can get to the ocean whe disappear easily. In the ocean we only recently discovered a new species of LARGE baleen whale. For years it's thought that it was mistaken for a minke. It lives off the coast of Japan and is thought to be highly endangered. The fact that it lives off the coast of a whaling company certainly doesn't help its numbers.
Siren
Friday, March 4, 2005 09:18:32 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Flu season sucks. :: sneezes ::

There's been sightings of a supposed Nessie in the Great Lakes, too. The biggest difficulty with cryptozoology is that it's impossible to prove a negative. Just because a search on one specific day doesn't find anything doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Evidence can be put forth to say that the probability that it does exist is minute, but the minute science dares to say with presumed certainty that something is NOT possible is usually when someone or something comes along to prove science wrong.

Regarding dragons and giants and other such creatures... there's one school of thought that says that these myths came about when early man found fossils of dinosaurs and other long-extinct animals. These people would have known they were looking at bones, but they would have had no capacity to comprehend how old they were, or what the animal they came from actually looked like.

As for the Crocodile Hunter... if he tried that "Watch me stick my finger in its cloaca!" trick with a gargoyle... well... let's just say he wouldn't be back for another season on Animal Planet.

146 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick
Friday, March 4, 2005 08:34:15 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

I read somewere that they did find somethingi in the loch, and a lake in canada. I don't remember the name, but i believe it's in british columbia. There also has been sightings of strange creatures in the lakes of africa. I'll check this stuff out and i'll post back.
dan
Friday, March 4, 2005 02:17:06 AM
IP: 68.42.18.157

"More than likely they've caught episodes of "The Crocodile Hunter" and are in hiding to keep away from Steve. ;)"
Crikey! Check this out. Isn't he gorgeous? Now I shall stick my thumb into his butthole. *snickers*

Yeah I watched too much South Park:p
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USAFriday, March 4, 2005 12:38:04 AM
IP: 209.74.24.241

Vertigo1 - So all of Loch Ness lake has been completely mapped out? and how long has sonar been continiously aimed at the Loch in case Nessie happenned to be missing for that one shot? About the only way to clear up those rumors is to send about 3 unmanned subs to absolutely map out all of Loch Ness Lake.
DPH
AR, USA
Friday, March 4, 2005 12:05:14 AM
IP: 67.14.195.7

Not to mention that the Loch has been scanned several times by sonar and nothing was revealed. If you ask me, the myth of the Loch Ness monster has about as much truth to it as crop circles being made by aliens. That being said, IF (and I do stress if) something is found in Loch Ness, I seriously doubt it would be anything remotely as large as the myth makes it out to be due to the aforementioned lack of food supply.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Thursday, March 3, 2005 11:01:29 PM
IP: 66.119.34.53

sorry for the double post.

i was mistaken, i was thinking of something else. Loch Ness is dark and silty and freshwater, but it still has a decent size level of zooplankton. however, its still not enough to feed a large animal, and there are not enough fish to support a population either.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Thursday, March 3, 2005 10:32:36 PM
IP: 67.65.131.68

Loch Ness> that lake is a silty, dark, freshwater strip of water. there is very little plankton in Loch Ness because of this. furthermore, you are correct in saying that if you walked into the woods you wouldn't likely see a bear, even though they are there. but if you did many intense searches of the forest you would almost certaintly find a bear. Loch Ness has been searched by people on all sides of this issue in great detail for decades. there is so little to eat in Loch Ness that it would be a struggle for even a small population of these animals to live there. theres not enough food for anything warm-blooded and its too cold for anything cold-blooded. the chances of Nessie existing make the odds of finding Bigfoot look very good. everything i've ever heard or read about Nessie can be attributed to superstition, mistaken identity, other animals, wishful delusion, or the effects of alcohol. if i ever see a shred of real evidence (an egg, a corpse, a bone, a reliable photograph, etc.) i'll happily rethink my opinion. but does anyone really think that is going to happen?

dragons> i keep hearing this "they are the same all over the world" thing. yeah, thats great. people around the world also came up with the Pyramid building, and they attribute that to one culture, Atlantis for instance. the fact is the pyramid is a relatively easy building to construct. its stable and sturdy. people around the world hit on a lot of the same good ideas. and people around the world can create some of the same charactieristics in their myths too. "dragons" are somewhat similiar around the world because they relate to what we feared in the world millenia ago. reptiles we still fear. fire we still fear. greed we still fear. man-eaters we still fear. all these fears were put together into a creature. we feared and respected this creature just like we feared and respected a Jaguar or a Rhino or a Lion. that doesn't make it an actual animal. again, i'd love to see some evidence, real evidence, for dragons of any shape or size from any part of the world. until then, they are myth.

people want dragons and bigfoot and nessie to be real, but unlike the platypus or okapi or panda, so far they have been unable to bring back any indisputable evidence. hearsay, folklore, and possible footprints and things of that sort don't count. if you wanna prove an animal exists, you have to bring one to the world community, dead or alive. until then, its at best a highly unlikely possibility.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Thursday, March 3, 2005 10:21:06 PM
IP: 67.65.131.68

What gets my juices flowing when it comes to the existance about myth animals is this...

For instance, you have the Aztecs. They knew all the animals in those jungles. And often, they had stories, myths, and gods that surrounded those animals. They knew what a jaguar was. They knew what a snake was. They knew what a lizard was. They knew what a caiman was. Each one of these animals described and often painted/sculpted looking very much like the modern animals we see there today. Then you have their version of a dragon. Like most dragon myths, it has scales, and flies, and breathes fire. Why though? Why describe today's known animals in so much detail, but just make up a story about a strange creature? And why do so many dragon myths look the same? Even on the other side of the globe.

And then we also have present day animals that we all thought never existed or were LONG extinct.
No one believed in the Mountain Gorilla up until early last century!! That is a blink of an eye in terms of our time here on Earth. The giant panda is also the same. No one believed people coming out of China, till they killed the mother and took the baby and showed it off to the masses. The platypus also was brought over here to the USA and scientists disected it, expecting to find stitches. The okapi is another animal that cryptzoologists (scientists who try to prove the existance of unknown animals) tried to convince the world existed and no one believed them. Now we know it is real and the cryptzoologists even use the okapi as their symbol and logo.
All these happened within the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s. Though I think it is more far-fetched to believe gargoyles existed over dragons. Though I don't 100% dismiss claims of other animals.

Nessie is another animal we have yet to discover. Over the years I have become disenchanted with it, but I do have one theory that I wish the scientists would look into...Okay, all the nay-sayers say a large cold blooded animal cannot survive in the loch due to climate and low food supply (fish). If this was the case, 100% sure, by all means, yes. But we aren't looking at the big picture. Many scientists believe that some dinosaurs were warm-blooded. Some believe that animals like the great-white shark are also warm-blooded. If Nessie is warm-blooded, then it can survive in a cold climate. For instance, whales, they have layers of blubber to keep warm. So do polar bears. They get so warm in the Arctic that they actually need to cool down sometimes, their body just works too good apparently. So let's say for instance, it is warm-blooded with layers of blubber. Because we don't know for a fact WHAT it is. We think it is a known sea-going reptile from the time of the dinosaurs, but we can't know for a fact. Another thing. The food supply. People assume it eats fish. Why is this? Because of fossils of the animal we THINK is Nessie? A blue whale is the largest animal on earth and it eats plankton, microscopic organisims. I have yet to hear a count on the Loch of these small animals. If the loch is full of them, then yes, Nessie and the rest of the Nessie population has a food supply. A recent report out of Scotland also said they found a sheep on the shore of the Loch that appeared to be killed by an unknown animal. Maybe it hunts like a crocodile and eats deer and a sheep now and then. And the last Nessie nay-sayers favorite thing to say is, there can't be just one. There has to be a breeding population to substain it. If this is the case, then more sightings of the creature would happen and we would have had a body by now. Go into the woods of the Northwest and look for the body of a grizzly bear. You probably won't find one. But we know they exist. Not to mention, we don't know the biology of the animal. When whalers hunt, they look for whales that float when dead. This is why the Right Whale got it's name, because it was the RIGHT whale to kill. When it was killed, it floated and could be dragged alongside the boat, while other whales sunk when dead. Also, we do know for a fact that the Loch is full of underwater caves. Most animals when they know they are going to die, they will go somewhere private. It is possible they use these caves to die and do not float when dead. Also, perhaps they are cannibals and have no problem eating the flesh of another, which would also account for lack of bodies.
Do I believe Nessie exists? Not really. 100% sure? No. I want to hear of a study on the microscopic animals in the loch. If they would do that, it would help me decide more conclusivly if I believe in Nessie or not.

I follow crytzoology quite a bit and find it intriging. So many times people find it easy to dismiss an animal that is alien to them. Or just sounds silly, like Bigfoot. You think Bigfoot and Harry and the Hendersons may come to mind. But time and time again, they have proven the rest of the scientific community wrong. Giant squids, okapi, etc. Or it just sounds silly, like Bigfoot. But there is truth in every story.
Siren
Thursday, March 3, 2005 09:16:55 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Brian - "If there are any out there then they are hiding because they know I'm curious as to what the wings feel like.:lol "

More than likely they've caught episodes of "The Crocodile Hunter" and are in hiding to keep away from Steve. ;)

In all seriousness though, if I were to come across an actual real-life gargoyle, I'd probably stay still and let it make the first move while trying to hold back my enthusiasm. :)

Like Siren, larger animals don't scare me. I've been raised around dogs so their body language is second nature to me.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Thursday, March 3, 2005 07:59:46 PM
IP: 66.119.34.53

"How many people can be wrong about the same thing?"

A LOT. i don't feel i need to point out examples of large groups of people being wrong, but if anyone needs examples they can pick up any history book.

as for mythical creatures existing. well, i think most of us can agree that the vast majority of reports, perhaps all reports are exagerations, misunderstandings, delusions, hoaxes, or just plain lies. that said, some of them make even the most conservative scientist raise an eyebrow. is it possible that a large species of ape is alive and is responsible for the Bigfoot/Sasquatch and/or Abominable Snowman myths? sure, its possible, not likely, but possible.
other myths like little winged fairies or centaurs or whatever exist only in the mind and in story. in that way, all things are true, its only a matter of where that truth is. in nature, in history, in folklore or merely in our minds.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Thursday, March 3, 2005 07:36:53 PM
IP: 67.65.131.68

Michelle> Chances are, that if they do exsist, they are in sparsely populated areas. Probably Montana, or matbe even the areas of the Congo or the Amazon Jungle that no one dares to go. That's just my theory.
Phoenyx
Memphis, TN, USA
Thursday, March 3, 2005 07:29:34 PM
IP: 135.214.150.125

Regarding the existence of gargoyles, and other mythic creatures. I think Greg Weisman had the best answer to this question:

"All things are true."

Those four words give me a lot of peace regarding the unknown.
Ano Otoko - [vm_postitnotes@yahoo.com]
Thursday, March 3, 2005 06:52:51 PM
IP: 4.29.19.226

If there are any out there then they are hiding because they know I'm curious as to what the wings feel like.:lol
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USAThursday, March 3, 2005 03:05:52 PM
IP: 199.224.75.221

Michelle> There are a lot of mythical creatures that common sense tells us shouldn't exist, but for corroborative accounts all over the world in ancient times makes one wonder if there is more to it. For example, dragons are described all over the world by all cultures, long before they had communicated gloabally. In fact, Animal Planet is having a special "Dragons Are Coming" on March 20th, kind of like their previous "The Future is Wild" special. Other creatures ranging from Bigfoot/Sasquatch/Yeti to Loch Ness Monster to the Mothman to countless other legends defy scientific explaination yet still pop up from time to time brings up the question, "How many people can be wrong about the same thing?". As for gargoyles, it would stand to reason that for their own survival, they would stick to the shadows and do their best not to attract attention to themselves and their kind, much like the London clan did, with only a few sporadic sightings leaving them to be urban legends.
Gantros
Thursday, March 3, 2005 02:00:49 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

It would totally rock if there were.
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USAThursday, March 3, 2005 01:05:14 PM
IP: 199.224.75.221

Hey y´all!
I know,this is a very stupid question,but can you tell me,if Gargoyles are really alive?!A classmate told me about them,but now I´m not sure,if I should believe him or not....If you can,please send me a E-Mail to answere my question!!!
Michelle - [Sweet-Angel90@gmx.de]
Drebber, Germany
Thursday, March 3, 2005 10:05:04 AM
IP: 217.229.127.36

Yeehah, Post Cereal has a contest on right for Quebec residents to win 1 of 5 trips for 4 to no-other than the home of this year's Gathering, Yep, you guessed it, good ol' Sin City, itself LAAS VEEGAASSS.
Matt Fews
Thursday, March 3, 2005 08:11:38 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Well, at least the problem's over. Let's hope that it never returns.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Thursday, March 3, 2005 07:09:21 AM
IP: 4.244.12.37

AG is back up.

Long story short, a process separate from s8 (but on the same server) was causing the database server to eat up huge amounts of memory and not release it when done.

So an upgrade to MySQL 4.1 was made (previously running 4.0). Looks like the SQL queries used in Ask Greg (which many of you have probably memorized by now as that's what was showing up, rather than Ask Greg itself) were tanking under the 4.1 server.

So a rollback to 4.0 was done and things are working fine now. I'll be looking at why things broke under 4.1 and go from there. Very frustrating.
Gorebash
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 10:29:16 PM
IP: 70.19.163.113

Looks like the server administrator still hasn't fixed the problem with "Ask Greg" yet. I hope that it'll be working properly tomorrow.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 07:06:27 PM
IP: 4.244.12.79

Siren>> You posted an innovative theory, and I just wanted to see where you got your information concerning animal communication. If you can't remember of the top of your head, that's OK.

However, I feel that if we want to partake in intelligent discussion, we should try to back up what we say. Otherwise, we're just barking at each other (past each other, even) like a bunch of dogs ;-).

I fully expect you to ask me to back up my notions.
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 04:09:02 PM
IP: 4.247.182.66

It's possible that the sessions with Walt, Frank, etc where recorded. Then later transcripts were written and the recording was beyond repair, was lost, or damaged. Only reason I can think of that makes half as much sense
Siren
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 11:41:04 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Tom Ad... Ad... Bah! Lexington hearing!> On the new BAMBI Platinum Edition DVD. In liu of an audio commentary, there is this "thing" they made that is like a commentary but it has voice actors reading transcipts of studio sessions from Walt, Frank T., and other who worked on "Bambi."

It also shows rough sketches, and production photos picture-in-pictured with the actual film itself. Apparently, these "transcipts" are what Walt and the other people actually said (they had a stenographer in the room?).

Anyway, Tom plays one of the voices (I forget who now).

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaWednesday, March 2, 2005 10:37:34 AM
IP: 198.53.28.99

All,

I've been told that there are issues about the 2005 Gathering which, for one reason or another, have not been getting resolved in a timely fashion.

If there is anyone out there is indeed having problems, or if you have posted a message to the wesbite's forums without getting a reponse, or if you're having other issues or questions about the 2005 Gathering, please email me personally at "spiritwolf@spirit-wolf.org" and I'll see what I can do to help things get moving again.

Thank you.

-Lanny Fields,
Vice-Con-Chair,
2005 Gathering of the Gargoyles.

Lanny Fields - [spiritwolf@spirit-wolf.org]
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 09:44:49 AM
IP: 70.176.98.16

JJ>Why do I have to prove it to you? It is a theory I strongly believe in. I don't ask you to. Nor do I ask that you prove your own theories. What is this? College Bio?
Siren
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 08:11:49 AM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Todd, "SOL" = "Sh*t Out o'Luck" ;)
Leo
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 07:52:57 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

What does SOL mean?

MATT - I was interested to learn that you work at the St. Louis Zoo, especially since it's not too far from where I live. (Pity that they discontinued the Forest Park shuttlebug, making it almost impossible for me to visit the place now.)
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 07:16:07 AM
IP: 4.244.12.240

Siren>I agree to a point. Dolphins, apes, and elephants all have proven to have complex languages of their own. As complex as English or any other. Some whale species have "accents". Understanding what whales are saying is like understanding someone who speaks Japanese. To me, it's all the same. Even some lesser species have simple language. Praire dogs and monkeys have one sound for each predator. One sound might mean eagle and another might mean lion. For me, that's language. That's speech.

That's just communication. *Language* features syntax, which, AFAIK, has never been mastered by a non-human animal.

As for seeing a gargoyle in real life: Given that it would be dark, I think there is a strong possibility I would take it to be a delusion or a very sophisticated trick.
Caleb
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 06:20:56 AM
IP: 81.154.219.82

We're SOL for the time being.

Here's the deal, a new database server was installed today, but the access rights (grant table) got hosed, so the database AskGreg uses is there, but the account used to access it doesn't have the rights to read from it.

I've e-mailed the server admin about this and hopefully he can fix it tomorrow. Until then we're a bit stuck, as there isn't anything I can do at the moment.

Sorry
Gorebash
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 03:14:35 AM
IP: 70.19.163.113

of course i take the day off to go muck about with friends and ag breaks. i'm on it.
Gorebash
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 03:03:06 AM
IP: 70.19.163.113

If I came across one, my first reaction would most likely be "what the hell is that?" Now I'm quite curious and check out just about anything somewhere that wasn't there before. Once it starts moving then I would probably freak out and scram.
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USAWednesday, March 2, 2005 02:36:04 AM
IP: 205.238.242.241

Siren>> You said "Dolphins, apes, and elephants all have proven to have complex languages of their own. As complex as English or any other." This is a rather remarkable claim. Do you have any sources to back this up?

Written word v. comics>> Keep in mind the cost factor. I find I can get a much bigger story "bang" from my buck via novels and short stories than from comics.

Not that I would mind comics. The artistry can be inspiring. I just think I can quench my curiosity more easily from the written word.
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Wednesday, March 2, 2005 01:11:41 AM
IP: 4.247.143.181

TODD> I e-mailed Gore. So hopefully he got it and is working on it.
Greg Bishansky
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 10:58:50 PM
IP: 141.155.108.154

Another possible gargoyle myth is the Mothman. It is described as being "5-7' tall, with red glowing eyes, it's body is wider then a man's, it had bat-like wings that did not flap, it glided, and sometimies made a sound like a woman screaming.
I would love to see the show deal with the Mothman. It sounds like it a female gargoyles. Red-glowing eyes, female sounding scream, gliding bat-like wings, etc.

Click my name for more info on the Mothman :)
Siren
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 09:08:31 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Matt>I agree to a point. Dolphins, apes, and elephants all have proven to have complex languages of their own. As complex as English or any other. Some whale species have "accents". Understanding what whales are saying is like understanding someone who speaks Japanese. To me, it's all the same. Even some lesser species have simple language. Praire dogs and monkeys have one sound for each predator. One sound might mean eagle and another might mean lion. For me, that's language. That's speech.

And Koko and Michael the gorillas can speak English extreemly well through sign language. They may leave out some pronouns and use simple English, but their intelligence matches that of many people. Their way of speaking is like that of a 3-4 year old, but their comprehension of things can match that of teenagers and adults, depending on the situation.
Siren
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 08:10:43 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Siren> i know what you mean about animal comunication. i'm in school to become a zookeeper, and i work at the St Louis Zoo right now. sure, most animals give off behavioral and body language cues like you mentioned or even sensory cues think of a skunk's spray, a rattlesnake's rattle, or a peacock showing his tail, these are all interspecies communication. the big difference i'm talking about however is that there is no other animal besides humans that can spak English or Japanese or whatever. mimic maybe, but gargoyles are not mimicing human sentences, they are making their own. that would be the big thing for me. these "things" are not hissing or staring or smelling or displaying... they are talking.
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 07:54:21 PM
IP: 67.65.131.68

Anybody know what happened to "Ask Greg"? Practically everything in it is down, replaced by a lot of programming gibberish. I hope that it hasn't been hit by a virus.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 07:25:30 PM
IP: 4.244.18.76

If I met a gargoyle and had never seen "Gargoyles", I'd probably be scared of it - even more scared of it than a shark or a crocodile. Sharks and crocodiles are tough, but we at least know what they are. But living gargoyles are different; they belong to fantasy rather than reality. If I were to run into a gargoyle that could actually speak and move - or a dragon or a vampire or a werewolf or anything of the "mythical species" variety - I'd be spooked, not just because of what it could do to me, but also because something like that isn't supposed to exist. (This could explain why people like Brendan and Margot are more afraid of the gargoyles than of the muggers that the gargoyles rescued them from. We know what a human criminal is and what he can do; gargoyles are the unknown.)

In the end, I don't think that we fear "monsters" because of what they can do to us. We fear them because of what they are.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 07:01:47 PM
IP: 4.244.18.76

Matt>They may not speak human language, but they still comminicate. Mostly in body language. You just need to know how to read it and then you need to know how to react to it. A lot of animal attacks happen from giving the wrong signals. Some animals, if you look them in the eye, it is a sign of domanance and they back down. Other's it is a challenge to fight. It's a matter of educating yourself and sometimes, even trial and error.

In other news:

Fans of Last Unicorn, click my name! I just listed my Last Unicorn My Little Pony Custom in ebay! And it is signed by Peter S Beagle :D
Or copy and paste: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5960632455
Siren
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 06:30:41 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Ano >> When you do get the funds, I believe it's cheapest at WalMart in the U.S. at $19.95. Amazon.com had it listed at $20.99 the week of release, not sure if they've lowered it since. I'm sure you could find it for even cheaper on eBay and maybe DeepDiscount as well. The cheapest overall I remember seeing it at is from Zellers in Canada.

Matt said >>>
"how can we possibly know how we'd react?"

We can't, there's really no way to know for sure 'cause there's no precedent. No human, that we know of, has ever encountered a previously unknown sentient being and reported it and had that report recorded. Yeah, there were Neanderthals growing up alongside us at one point, but one assumes that they were known of and wouldn't have been too freaky to early humans (I remember reading that they may've even mixed into our bloodline, aside from the rest of their numbers becoming extinct from us killing them).

It's fun to speculate though, as others have already done. It depends on the situation. Let's say I'm walking home at night and I just see a gargoyle randomly walking along the oppostite sidewalk. We stop and stare at eachother. Sure, the initial reaction would be fear, 'cause it's all unknown and foreign and I can't honestly say I'm immune to the usual human tendency of being afraid of that. Awe would set in pretty soon after though. I would be totally awestruck, and that might outweight the fear. I would probably wanna say something, but I think it'd be best to let something like that have the first word.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 05:57:38 PM
IP: 69.17.169.178

Reactions to Gargoyles>> I would defenitely be shocked by a gargoyle's appearance, and would have problems with trust. However, if the gargoyle was talking to me as if it were similar to a human, I would feel forced to treat him like a human -- an extremely powerful human with sharp blades built into his fingers and toes!
JJ Gregarius
Tampa, FL
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 05:16:26 PM
IP: 4.247.155.40

Hello. First time posting here in a long while...

I'd really like to buy the Gargoyles DVD but alas... broke as a joke.

Hope everyone I remember is okay, and hello to Gorebash. Pass that on to Greg if you can ;)
Ano Otoko - [vm_postitnotes@yahoo.com]
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 04:16:18 PM
IP: 4.29.19.226

Gorebash - There's a big typo on lots of your pages. In the advertisement for the Gargoyles DVD Release, you have consistently spelled "Keith" "Kieth".
DPH
AR, USA
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 04:01:24 PM
IP: 67.14.195.37

Siren> i'm a lot like you, if you know how to react to certain animals, its hard to panic or be afraid...

the thing is, snakes, gators, pit bulls and sharks don't look you in the eye and talk to you. that would be the most frightening part to me. they are not just another animal, this thing has an intelligence comparable to mine! its the same thing that makes alien abductions so freaky to me. this thing is smarter than me and i don't have any experience to compare to this. how can we possibly know how we'd react?
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 03:55:17 PM
IP: 67.65.131.68

My reaction to seeing a living, breathing gargoyle:

I think I would remain calm. I've been swimming at the beach before and had a 6' shark swim by that was but 3' from me and remained calm. And there was an 8' gator in a neighbor's yard that I "shooed" away. And another time, a pit bull came charging at myself and my dog, I faced it, ready to take it on without thinking. I knew if I ran, there was a 100% chance it would catch me and maul me, but if I stood my ground and was just as aggressive, I had half a chance it would back down. And it did. Large animals really don't scare me. It's the small, agile ones that worry me. Such as cottonmouth and rattlers. Those get my heart racing because I am never sure if I will be fast enough to get away. Large animals are a little more predictable, I can read their signs better. The gator I encountered, I could see when he was ready to strike and was able to move out of the way in time. So I don't think I'd go running off screaming if such a creature came towards me.
Siren
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 01:13:54 PM
IP: 65.33.112.240

Only a few hours left to post your winning design for the Gathering Tee Shirt Contest. Get those entries in by Midnight Eastern for consideration! Good luck!
kathy - [staff@gargoyles-fans.org]
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 10:15:39 AM
IP: 66.82.9.69

ANONYMOUS - But how were gargoyles portrayed in those two movies? In a favorable or unfavorable light? That's the point.

MATT - I've also sometimes thought that the London gargoyles might have a slightly easier time of it; feathered wings have a better reputation than batlike wings, and looking like animals rather than like monsters helps some as well. (Unicorns even have a very good press, which gives Una a definite advantage here.) Though that doesn't seem to have made much difference to the English when they were wiping out gargoyles.

DAN - What sightings of strange creatures flying above were those? (I assume that you're not just talking about UFOs, which generally don't look like living creatures but like disks of light or something weirder.) Of course, there's the Mothman business back in - I think it was the late 60's; that sounds pretty gargoyle-ish.

One thought that I've had. Now we don't know for certain if Greg ever planned to bring in literal demons or a Satan-like figure into "Gargoyles" (they would have been difficult to handle on account of the potential religious controversy, but in light of the "Prince of Darkness" mention in "Her Brother's Keeper" and the fact that one of the unwritten laws of "Gargoyles" is that when you mention somebody from myth, legend, or public-domain literature in "Gargoyles", they're certain to show up somewhere down the road, it would probably have eventually happened), but if such beings had shown up, I have a very strong suspicion that they'd have looked like perfectly normal and even very physically attractive humans with no trace of horns or cloven hooves about them. It would certainly fit in with the recurring theme in the series of "Don't judge a book by its cover".
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 07:32:30 AM
IP: 4.244.12.113

Brian> I'd probably freak out and run away if I encountered a gargoyle in chance incident. On the other hand, if I were rescued by one from falling, after the initial shock (and probably some running), I'd think over it, and either come to the conclusion that it didn't have to save me, and would make me question it's intentions. If I were rescued from a mugging, I'd probably turn and run and come to the conclusion that the mugger was unlucky enough to be first victim. It's all about circumstance and first impressions, just like between humans. Our initial response to a threatening figure is to either run or fight, giving a narrow window of opportunity to the "figure" to make it's intentions known, for good or ill.
Gantros
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 05:41:41 AM
IP: 24.20.243.55

"Crikey! Check this out! It's a gargoyle. This species is very rare and endangered. Take a look at that wingspan, and those red glowing eyes! That means this one's a female. I'd better use my stick, mate, 'cause she sure looks a-gee-tated."

149 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 05:37:04 AM
IP: 68.170.199.45

Brian: Well that would really depend on what they look like and calm or agitated the Gargoyle is when you meet. If the Gargoyle is agitated, like when it's terrorizing a criminal, a person would probably treat the Gargoyle like a wild animal (somthing to get away from).
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 05:03:07 AM
IP: 64.112.203.26

Well there has been sightings of strange creatures from time to time flying over head. The accounts sound like nothing like our beloved gargoyles, but they sound 100 percent more creepy. I'm sure if a gargoyle of any look came out into the open people would be freaked out. Now if it was human looking, i could see that but something that looks like goliath or brooklyn no. If the world can somehow tie them into an anchient civalation, it might work.
dan
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 02:02:06 AM
IP: 68.42.18.157

I was confronted with this question when I was in HS and I'm curious as to what the responses here would be. The words aren't exact, but heh...
Let's say there was an actual living breathing gargoyle out there and you came face to face with it. Honestly, what would your reaction be?
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USATuesday, March 1, 2005 01:59:22 AM
IP: 216.37.226.198

makes me think that humans may even be rascist among the gargoyle species. i think they would be much more willing to accept English gargoyles as good than Scottish gargoyles, just based on appearences...
matt
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 01:50:19 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

Todd makes a good point. We've been flooded with movies showing creatures vastly different than we are as evil creatures hellbent on our destruction. Now introduce the clan in the middle of modern-day NYC, how can you not expect people to see them for what they look like when you consider main-stream cinema? Then when you include scaremongering by Xanatos ("The Edge" anyone?) and later Canmore and his band of incompetant morons its no small wonder why the gargoyles were hated and feared by many just because of what they look like, regardless of their good deeds.
Vertigo1
TN, USA
Tuesday, March 1, 2005 01:46:47 AM
IP: 66.119.34.53

Todd> Sci-Fi Channel recently had two TV movies about gargoyles or gargoyle-like creatures, "Night of the Gargoyle"(Not sure if that is the right title) and "Darklight", respectively.
Anonymous
Monday, February 28, 2005 11:51:19 PM
IP: 24.20.243.55

I suspect that the humans look upon the gargoyles as monstrous, regardless of the "animation style", because we've been conditioned to look upon anything with batlike wings, clawed hands and feet, fangs, etc. as monstrous. Let's face it - apart from the "Gargoyles" series, how many stories are out there that portray gargoyles in a good light? Nine times out of ten, when you've got a story with a living gargoyle in it, it's portrayed as evil and bent on preying upon humanity.
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 28, 2005 08:01:25 PM
IP: 4.245.18.70

Kris: The animations are pretty streamlined. I think it would be interesting to see slightly refined versions of the characters if they were in comics, just including things like showing us Elisa's wardrobe and maybe making the gargoyles slightly more monstrous, just by getting back some muscle tone and letting them get battle scars and stuff. One of the downsides of needing to make them appealing, I always thought, was that they didn't really look all that monstrous. So when everyone kept going "they're monsters!" it almost felt like I had to suspend disbelief (or the animators would kindly do an eye glow effect or put them in shadow so we'd see how they could seem monstrous in one frame and cool and friendly in the next). All the same, hand-painted art would probably take a long time though. In UK comics, it's more standard for artists to pencil, ink and colour their own work, but then what few comics are still available tend to be anthology books. Seems like the US comics are pretty mass-produced. There's some great stuff with computer colouring of course, though I wonder if it wouldn't work best with a spin-off series. That said, 'Gargoyles' has some absolutely astounding artists in its fandom ranks and I dare say there's a few people out there who would be happy to provide illustrations for any 'Gargoyles' novels.

Mind you, it would be cool if there were lots of series in different formats. Maybe a comic version of 'Gargoyles', a CGI series for 'Bad Guys' or '2198', a novel series for 'Pendragon' etc.
Ed
Monday, February 28, 2005 07:39:46 PM
IP: 131.111.236.130

An odd little thought that I recently had. We know that the bulk of the differences between the Gargoyles Universe and the real world are hidden ones (gargoyles exist, Oberon's Children exist, the New Olympians exist, King Arthur was real, the heads on Easter Island really were modelled on an alien secretly living there). But I found myself wondering if there could be at least one or two "public differences" as well.

In one of Whitbourne's Gargoyles fics, the Gargoyles Universe's (properly speaking, the Whitbourne Gargoyles Universe's) version of "Independence Day" has the aliens, when they destroy New York, making the center of their destruction the Eyrie Building rather than the Empire State Building. It strikes me, in fact, as a logical change for the Gargoyles Universe to make; the Eyrie Building would certainly be a strongly noticed part of the New York skyline, and would seem even more appealing for big-budget special effects (after all, it's got a castle perched on top, which the Empire State Building doesn't have). And from there, it makes one wonder whether the Gargoyles Universe equivalent of various movies set in New York (though only ones that were made after 1994, of course) might have the Eyrie Building somewhere in the background as well as the familiar real-world landmarks like the Empire State Building, the Statue of Liberty, Brooklyn Bridge, etc. I can't imagine any movie-maker with spectacle on his mind passing up the opportunity to include something that looked like that for a setting.

The Eyrie Building is the obvious "big public difference", since most of the other made-up landmarks in the Gargoyles Universe are much less prominent (how much attention would the general public have paid to the clock tower before the Canmores blew it up and publicly framed the gargoyles for it?). Another notable public difference would be the Pack's television show (though I imagine that it faded into quick obscurity after the Pack became criminals - I wonder whether the inevitable merchandise that would have accompanied the show - as in Pack action figures or Pack video games - also became near-impossible to find in the aftermath).
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 28, 2005 07:06:14 PM
IP: 4.245.18.70

Battle Beast> You spammed!!!! For Shame!!!!
Phoenyx
Memphis, TN, USA
Monday, February 28, 2005 06:54:29 PM
IP: 135.214.150.125

Not to start a different conversation, but the Oscars were last night, and if you watched them or not, check out my completely UPDATED web site:

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs

That is all I will say.
Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, February 28, 2005 04:56:59 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99

Not to start a different conversation, but the Oscars were last night, and if you watched them or not, check out my completely UPDATED web site:

www.geocities.com/oscarmovs
Battle Beast
CanadaMonday, February 28, 2005 04:56:42 PM
IP: 198.53.28.99

...
Anonymous
Monday, February 28, 2005 01:57:23 PM
IP: 135.214.150.125

Man I hate Jet-lag.

I arrived home from the UK around 7:30 last night.
Matt Fews
Monday, February 28, 2005 10:32:43 AM
IP: 206.47.191.83

Kris makes a good point about a comic book being a better "on the page" continuation of the series than a series of Gargoyles novels. Either way, of course, one thing that would be lost would be the voice actor talent (which was also a major part of the series, and even gave Greg Weisman a few ideas, such as the Archmage's return in "Avalon").
Todd Jensen
St. Louis, MO
Monday, February 28, 2005 07:48:48 AM
IP: 4.244.12.192

Number 10!

150 days left until The Gathering 2005 in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Patrick
Monday, February 28, 2005 07:42:51 AM
IP: 66.93.14.153

9th place for me!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
Marquette, Michigan, USA
Monday, February 28, 2005 03:35:14 AM
IP: 64.112.203.32

Shara's #7, I'll be 8th or 9th depending on how fast I can write the following and post it.

I'd definitely read a Gargoyles novel if it was penned by either Greg or one of the other series writers (especially Michael Reeves). However, a lot of times a large part of my enjoying Gargoyles was due to the dynamic visuals (and those beautiful hand-drawn/painted backgrounds). So I think the series would do better as a comic book. If you think about it, a comic is much closer to the feel of a film/TV show than a novel is. In a comic we SEE the characters and their dialogue, we see them acting. There may be a little narration/exposition in rectangular boxes in addition to those dialogue bubbles, but otherwise a comic reads a lot like a script. It's the same way in live-action or animated programming (dialogue is spoken instead of read, plus movement is fully shown rather than imagined in between the panels, but those are the only two key differences I can think of). A novel would require describing the castle, describing the characters' appearances to new readers...a whole ton of expository prose to wade through. Fine in any novel I read that's NOT related to a cartoon, but for something like Gargoyles I think it'd feel off to me. Comics seem like a better fit, if you can get the right artist (one that can hand-paint backgrounds just like in the show would be awesome, and maybe draw the characters exactly the same or as close to the versions in the series as possible--by that I mean, of course Lexington would be green and have his basic character model the same, but some artists go a bit wonky on facial likenesses and such if they're adapting a live-action or animated film or TV show to comics. SOMETIMES a new artist's take on characters is cool to see, but if a comic was the only continuation of the TV show we'd ever see, I'd rather the likenesses be as close as possible.
Kris - [plekopleko@hotmail.com]
Ontario, Canada
Monday, February 28, 2005 02:30:54 AM
IP: 69.17.169.178

Mooncat>I agree with your post. What you say makes alot of since. I guess what I said just did'nt come out right. I would still watch the show.
shara
Monday, February 28, 2005 01:46:43 AM
IP: 209.179.192.76

errr, *recounts* no, 6TH!!!!
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:19:03 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

errr, *counts* 7TH!!!
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:18:40 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

6TH!!
matt
O'Fallon, Mo
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:18:11 AM
IP: 67.65.131.68

I take the 5th!!
DPH
AR, USA
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:17:42 AM
IP: 67.14.195.26

4th eh? yay!
dan
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:11:16 AM
IP: 68.42.18.157

Nah. It starts about this time every week. Midnight Monday morning. However last week I called the number one spot at 00:00:01 and still got posted with the week before's.:eek
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USAMonday, February 28, 2005 12:07:27 AM
IP: 199.224.75.57

Third!
Leo
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:05:38 AM
IP: 68.231.241.236

Number two in the name of the Fay!

wow, the countdown started early this week...

Mooncat
Mooncat
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:04:00 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

It's been nearly two years since Greg W. outed Lex as being gay. So Lex was gay for all the Gargoyles shows we've seen, it just was never overtly obvious. Just like Fox was half a Child of Oberon and nonhuman for entire series run, but she's still the same person before the revelation as she is after it. Her personality doesn't change and except for one bolt of blue fire, nothing else is done with that facet of her character make up.

If new episodes of Gargoyles were made, it's highly unlikely Lex would turn to the camera and say, "oh hey, by the way, I'm gay." But his being gay will probaby be low key and a non-issue on the show because it's not a focal point of who and what Lex is all about, it's just one more part of him like his being green, and small, and smart.

Lex being gay is like Goliath and Elisa having sex. We wouldn't see it on screen in an American animation aimed at young viewers. However if they do become romantically involved, their having sex is a given, but it will never ever be concretely confirmed in an overt and obvious way. If gay sexuality is a hot potato, interspecies intimate relations is just controversial a subject for a mainstream cartoon.

Lex being gay isn't a gimmick or a sweeps week ploy for attention, it's just part of his characterization that most people will never even twig onto. Only really devoted fans who research the "off screen" information will even hear about it. Or maybe some unhappy bigots who do nothing but scour the world for any indication or intimation that a cartoon character is gay so they can fly off the handle about it. Lex being gay is really fandom insider information, and unless anti-gay people make a big deal about it, the world at large won't even have an inkling of Lex's sexual preferences.

Mooncat
Mooncat
Monday, February 28, 2005 12:02:00 AM
IP: 68.102.17.133

Numbah 1
Brian - [Shendu42@hotmail.com]
USAMonday, February 28, 2005 12:00:31 AM
IP: 199.224.75.57