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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 11, 2007

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HoE>> Well, if you're looking for an amusing word that shares few letters to describe the particular situation, try sibicide; as I suppose if you take suicide to "literally" mean "the cutting down/killing OF oneself," sibicide could be taken to mean "the cutting down/killing FOR oneself."

It's a very bad dative of purpose, but oh well.

Alex Garg

Matt: the other would get murder if he is a victim of the other violence, if they would be fighting and one loose, but not if he agrees to be killed. I think the difference is quite clear.
Demon@

And in case anyone asks, no, I don't have a soul. I sold it for a hot corned-beef sandwich on April 4th, 2005. Sorry for the double post, but I just needed to nip that one in the bud.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But where they were last night, no one can remember. Somebody got murdered, goodbye, for keeps, forever..." -The only band that really matters.

Yeah, I'm just trying to come up with an amusing term for it. Only problem is, the words share too many common letters, and "suihomicide" is not nearly as amusing as I'd like.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But where they were last night, no one can remember. Somebody got murdered, goodbye, for keeps, forever..." -The only band that really matters.

I think it's suicide if you ask someone to kill you. Yeah the other committed homicide, but you're committing suicide. If not, than this whole argument would be moot since that's what happened in Goliath's case.

And how do we know that Demona and Macbeth will go out violently? Maybe when/if they decide to bite the bullet they will do it in a peaceful, consenting manner.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny

There's no such thing under the law as an affirmative defense (i.e., "he wanted me to kill him") to homicide. Just ask Dr. Kevorkian.

12 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We have so much time, and so little to do! Strike that, reverse it." - Willy Wonka

If the person being murdered WANTS to be murdered, would that be homi-su?
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But where they were last night, no one can remember. Somebody got murdered, goodbye, for keeps, forever..." -The only band that really matters.

It'd be suicide AND homocide. Whoever killed the other would be killing themselves too.
Aldrius
"This gives me an idea! Propaganda! Used correctly it could be as deadly as any weapon in my arsenal..."

No, that one would be getting murdered.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Matt: One of them would be commiting homicide, but the other, the one who would willingly let the other kill him, that one would be commiting suicide.
Demon@

Demon@> Uh, suicide isn't the way that Macbeth and Demona would die... homicide is.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Vaevictis Asmadi: Im sure Bronx isnt ;)
About the suicide deal, reading on of the gargoyles saga episodes, these question come up. We know a suicide person is sick and needs help, but say Demona and Macbeth put aside their hate and agree that is time to die. Would it be right to stop them, knowing they have already lived their lifes and that suicide is the only way for them to die and rest? Would it be moraly correct to stop them ?

Demon@

I have a question.

Greg has said that many gargoyles are ambidextrous, specifically Goliath is. Looking at Lynati's screenshots, I can see that Demona is also ambidextrous. But have we seen any evidence in the show that any of the others are? For example, has Hudson ever used his sword with his left hand, or have any of the gargoyles been seen writing with both hands? I don't expect anybody would remember offhand, but maybe somebody has a screenshot.

Vaevictis Asmadi

But remember, Indiana had a different leading lady in each film, so why would we expect different for the new movie. And Sallah was only in the 1st and 3rd movie, not the second. I don't hear anyone complaining that they aren't brining back Short Round and Willie from Temple of Doom.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

I think a fourth movie is just a bad idea, anyway, with or without other original cast members.

This is actually the first I've heard of Connery's retirement. Well, the man has certainly earned it.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"I can't cut anyone's balls off with a trimmer, now can I?" -Sean Connery

I read the other day about Sean Connery declining (says he's having too much fun being retired), but I hadn't heard that no one else from the original trilogy had even been approached. That definitely deserves a giant "WTF?" from the public. "Indiana Jones" worked because of the cast dynamics, not just because of Harrison Ford. Not bringing back as much of that cast as possible is just lame.

13 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"Asps. Very dangerous. You go first." - Sallah, "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

This isn't related to any topics in the room at the moment, but I coloured a Demona piece on deviantART, and I wanted you guys to see it. If you click on my name, you'll go to my account, where I featured the piece. n.n

PS- Lines aren't mine. That's in the description, but I thought I'd say it again.

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

The 3D scene in the youtube video was from Gargoyles Rebirth(http://castellant.free.fr/indexb.htm)
nosprings

According to Wikipedia, one script did include Marion Ravenwood/Karen Allen. But John Rhys-Davies/Sallah was not asked to return and Sean Connery/Henry Jones did not want to return.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Kingcobra: <A senior in my high school blew his own head off back in '98. There's nothing gray about it.> Nothing gray about that particular incident, perhaps, but I still agree with what Patrick said. Meaning that the issue of suicide itself, and the situations where it might be deemed acceptable, are defined by shades of gray. Nothing in the universe is black and white. Not even both halves of the Taijitu are pure light and pure dark.

Greg and Greg: Oh, I still think they could squeeze her into the movie. I mean, come on, George Lucas put Hayden f**king Christenson into "Return of the Jedi."

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"All our thoughts, impressions, knowledge, fears, have been developing for millions of years. What we can relate to is our own life. Here... Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how that is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")

Greg> It's Spielberg and Lucas. Of course they didn't get it.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano

Someone want to explain to me how they can be making another Indiana Jones movie... WITHOUT Karen Allen? They asked the retired Sean Connery to reprise his role (and he passed), but haven't asked Karen Allen to reprise hers?

They really fundamentally never got what made that first film work, did they?

Greg Weisman
"How could I not believe in animism? Every time I get on my bathroom scale, proof is there before my eyes of the sentience (and perversity) of all things."

Yeah, that is great news dph. I'm a little confused as well.

It's funny because I was just thinking today how much I would love seeing Hudson in his prime with young 2nd in command Goliath (possibly have the figure of present day Brooklyn), with his blossoming love interest Demona, with Othello, Desdemona and Iago. That would be a cool series. I think it would be so cool to see the trio hatching. But, of course, I love prequels.

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Maybe Emma was a young child or baby in 975. Princess Elene was probably the oldest and Emma was the youngest must be a huge age difference.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Check out today in Gargoyles Universe History:

This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....

June 6th...

1042
Hardicanute dies suddenly at a wedding, perhaps due to poison. He is succeeded by his half-brother, Edward the Confessor, son of Aethelred the Unready and Emma of Normandy, as King of England. Edward locks his mother Emma (Princess Katharine's aunt) up in a nunnery.

I guess that means that Greg Weisman worked out who the parentage of Princess Katharine, but something occurs to me. How could Princess Elena's sister still be alive by 1042? 1042 - 975 = 67 years after events of Vows. I guess that's another question to be asked when the submit button gets reactivated.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

just watched the news and they said Paris has got to go back to jail to serve the remainder of her sentence. I bet she be out in 3 days again
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

What exactly in Paris's contribution to society anyway? Well, besides being a punch line for late night tv.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

Protecting the castle is like breathing the air.
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Just to weigh in on the issue, I'mm in total agreement with Demonskyre's thoughts. I esspecially think the fact that being "alone" to a gargoyle is even beyond what it means to a human. Clan and community are so important to a gargoyle that it almost seems as if a gargoyle without a clan is not a gargoyle at all. Witness Demona and Thailog and Coldsteel. The point that gargoyles alone are usually being punished with banishment and exile is another excellant point. Well said, Demonskyre.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

I had a feeling that Paris was gonna be released within a week or 2.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

In a desperate attempt to change the topic, how about this Paris Hilton debacle?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

AFTER your post appear, sorry :P im a bit out today
Demon@

Oh, sorry Greg, i posted before your post appeared.
Demon@

I agree with you on that. Its very easy to say "oh, i would never do that" for someone who has not live what that persona has lived.
Extrem situations (like loosing all your family ) cause people to act as they would never think they would act in normal circunstances.
Say you would not kill yourself after finding home all your family rip to pieces, other memebers in a coma and finding yourself all alone when you have never experienced something like that, or similar, its an act of arrogance.
I dont thin anyone can judge a person...unless you are in the same level at the same time, in the same situation.

Demon@

To explain why I feel the way I feel... my father probably killed himself. He was recovering from cancer, and he overdosed on his medication. He was on it for a while, he knew how to handle it. I will admit, not 100% sure if it was deliberate, and we were never all that close, but he most likely committed suicide.

He didn't get his affairs in order either, which created a lot of problems. The man was nothing but trouble in life, and he was nothing but trouble in death.

So, yes, that's why I have a harsh opinion on suicide. So, please, no one tell me I know nothing about it.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano

Personally, I think it's very tough for anyone to say what they would do in Goliath's situation because the siatuation Goliath was in is almost totally divorced from anything any of us will experience. Not only will (I would sincerely hope), none of us ever experience the death of our entire community and pretty much everyone we know or love, none of us has Goliath's cultural upbringing either. It's like thinking about what you would do if you were netrothed to someone from a very young age. We might easily say from our current perspective "Oh, I'd never get married to someone I didn't love", but would you really buck tradition if that's what you'd grown up with. If you knew all your life that this was what was going to happen? If everyone you knew was married through parental arrangement?

Goliath is dealing with an absolutely crushing disaster. Yes, he's an adult and a warrior and better equipped to deal with death than say, ten year old Bruce Wayne (to bring back the old Batman comparison). But the destruction of almost his entire clan - coupled with betrayal by his one true human friend, and on top of that having the few remaining members of his clan turned to stone forever - is probably something he never considered possible. Goliath may be leader of the clan, but my impression is that the gargoyles don't put a lot of emphasis on self sufficient individualism. Being sent away to live on your own is punishment. Demona opts for the lone gargoyle life for a time, but she's not exactly considered the model of gargoyle ethics and sanity. Plus, in caring for the eggs, Goliath would be solely responsible for a job that would normally be performed by numerous gargoyles, one that he's never done before at that. Had the Wyvern massacre never happened, Goliath would likely rely heavily on the knowledge and expertise of the older members of the clan who had been rookery parents before. Heck, we saw how much trouble Goliath had doing the single parent thing with one mature, intelligent young adult gargoyle to care for. Imagine how he'd fare with thirty-six far less logical hatchlings. ("But I don't WANT to turn to stone! I'm not tired at all!")

Does this mean that Goliath's decision to commit suicide rather than face the responsibility of raising the next generation of gargoyles alone was necessarily right? No. But you can see how he arrived at it and you can see that there were more forces at work than simply "he was depressed". It's these factors that make it so hard for us, sitting comfortably in front of our computers in a 21st century world sadly lacking in gargoyle, to really say what we might do in that situation.

Demonskrye

Adam: When I watched Ghostbusters recently, I wondered to myself if Bronx's design was modelled after those guard beasts. He really resembles them, doesn't he?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Does anyone else think that the doglike creatures from the movie Ghostbusters kinda look like a gargoyle beast?
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

I didn't mean for this to turn in to a debate on suicide morality in the real world...
Though I think that there's a HUGE difference between killing yourself out of sheer physical pain and killing yourself when in mental turmoil. People who are depressed to the point of suicial thoughts shouldn't be blamed or frowned down upon-they need help-just as a cancer patient needs help in fighting their disease. Depression is a disease-a chemical imbalance in the brain. The ones who commit suicide are usually the ones who don't recieve help and are told to "snap out of it." I would never call it bravery though-It's a last resort, a cry for help-it's giving up.

In Goliath's case, he doesn't have clinical depression. But in that moment he was in such a horrible state of mental anguish that the only option he believed he had was to give up. He couldn't think beyond that moment. He probably didn't think he had the capacity to take care of 36 young gargoyles. (I think that Demona felt the same way when she saw the eggs being carted away-which is why she didn't try to take them back.) So certainly, I don't think that Goliath asking the magus to "kill him" was brave. It was an extreme situation and I can't blame him-but it wasn't brave. He gave up-that's all there is to it. And telling suicidal people that killing themselves is akin to bravery is NOT a good idea, and it is not true...though I don't think telling people that they'll go to Hell is helpful either.

People jumping out of the twin towers to escape incredible physical pain is a totally different thing...apples and oranges.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny

From the Ask Greg archive, on gargoyle suicide:

"Spore-chan writes...

"Ok, I've got a question on gargoyle suicide , and I can't find the answer in the archives, but feel free to give me a smart-ass response if I have missed it. Let's say a gargoyle slshes their wrists, and does not bleed to death before sunrise. Would the fact that they do not want to be healed have any effect on the sun healing them? And how would a clan regard suicide anyways? As a crime? A cry for help? Something else?"

"Greg responds...

"I don't feel right about being a smart-ass when the topic is suicide .

"A simple cut on the wrist would heel over the course of a day. Mindset might effect a more devastating injury. Of course the scary thing is how easy it is for a less-than-devastating injury to have devastating results.

"I think garg suicide is fairly rare. Gargoyles are a primal race in many ways, and the will to live is VERY PRIMAL. But I suppose it's not unheard of. Most gargs would regard it as a MASSIVE cry for help. And they would certainly attempt to prevent their clanmate from taking his or her own life."

ArkansasMezzo
I'll find something to put here.

Let's also not forget that in some cultures, suicide is considered an honorable means of meeting one's end. Some cases depend on the circumstances, but it may be considered the prefferable alternative to being taken captive or dying at the hands of an enemy.

Has Greg W. ever weighed in on how suicide is viewed in gargoyle culture?

Kythera of Anevren
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

Harvester> A senior in my high school blew his own head off back in '98. There's nothing gray about it.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Thanks BB.

And in some religions, suicide is acceptable. People can still go to a "promise land" when they committ suicide. I don't believe people who kill themselves have an instant ticket to hell. I find that belief to be very sad and ignorant. That means ever AIDS or cancer patient, every person who jumps from a burning building (like 9/11), goes to hell? Because they want to end their suffering? I don't believe in killing yourself for mental suffering, but from physical, yes. I probably would if I was dying of some disease and it was very painful. For those who kill themselves for mental reasons, I find it very sad. They often don't have a support system. And because of that, they feel alone in this world. Going back to Gargoyles, maybe that is why Goliath chose to be put under the spell. He lost his family. Parents kill themselves all the time and leave their children behind. Its better than killing their children too like so many do in the news lately.

Siren
Don't knock on Death's door. Ring his doorbell and run, he hates that.

Indeed. Life is defined by shades of gray. If you're staring death in the face, I'd say that your options would be limited, even if your imagination worked overtime.

I too was also referring to people who allow everyday problems to get the better of them. There are always more creative solutions to problems such as that.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"All our thoughts, impressions, knowledge, fears, have been developing for millions of years. What we can relate to is our own life. Here... Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how that is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")

Suicide isn't a black and white issue. I would challenge anyone who says the people who jumped to their own deaths from the Twin Towers on 9/11 were cowards.

14 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"T-t-t-two weeks!" - Quaid, "Total Recall"

Jurgan:
<<He said he felt a debt to them, and I believe he said it was one he could never repay, or something like that. I doubt he suddenly decided it was paid off. I also don't think he's going to be exactly the same as he always was in every other respect, but on the other hand, he's not going to be Bruce Wayne. He's a complex character who's going through a lot of changes.
>>
Close to my thoughts, actually. Thing is, I think Xanatos can cause the gargoyle's grief while still thinking he is honoring his debt, if the incentive is great enough for him.

JJ Gregarius

*And we would all be posting at the Power Rangers Comment Room.*


The Horror! The Horror!

Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

In Catholicism (not sure if this applies to all Christians), suicide is a mortal sin that can never be washed clean from your soul, so you go to Hell.

Between Earth and Hell, I choose Earth with the possibility of Purgatory or Heaven later. And even if I just end up rotting in the ground, then at least I had a good run. Life isn't about death, but the journey.

Goliath had to commit suicide to continue his journey. Did he know the spell could be broken? Yes. Did he know he was getting a second chance? No. He made his decision and destiny took over. Thankfully, it did or we wouldn't have had a show then, would we? Goliath would still be gathering moss. And we would all be posting at the Power Rangers Comment Room.

TiniTinyTony
Certainty? In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes. - Benjamin Franklin

SIREN> "I think you have to be pretty brave to stare death in the face and do so on your own choice..."

AMEN.

Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.

Patrick: Forget Goliath. Was it me or did Lexington's wings look detached from his arms? Also, why did Demona have a red porcupine on her head?


And as for me, I don't think suicide is a sin. It's your life, no one else's, and you're free to do as you wish with it. I'm just against it because it displays lack of imagination. If you think it's your only solution, you're not fully applying yourself to the situation. You always have a choice. No one is forcing me to sit down with someone and discuss SSRI medications. I'm doing it because I choose to, and I'm tired of just ignoring the problem. I'd rather fight than lay down.

Besides, the universe is gonna kill you at some point anyway (it gets us all in the end), so why make its job easier?

I do have to say though, that all this talk, in particular Goliath not knowing how long the change of heart of Katherine and the Magus might last, actually makes the reunion between Goliath and Katherine in "Avalon, Part II" a more emotionally-charged moment. How COULD he have known how far they'd go?

*as he leaves the CR, he stops by the snack table, pulls a flask from the back pocket of his jeans, and empties its contents into the root beer*

Trust me, I think this place needs it right now.

*leaves humming the Yes song "Remembering High the Memory"*

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"All our thoughts, impressions, knowledge, fears, have been developing for millions of years. What we can relate to is our own life. Here... Hopefully, we should appreciate that given points in time are not so significant as the nature of what is impressed on the mind, and how that is retained and used." -Yes ("Tales From Topographic Oceans")

Being at work makes me miss everything here....

About Goliath's suicide, well, I hate to remember that it never struck me until years later just what kind of a moment that was. Here was this character, the great hero of the series, giving up on his children, on the future.

In terms of morality, how one would view Goliath if they existed in his world would be to despise him. People do break under strain, but that doesn't stop ethical criticism. Goliath had a reason, but not an excuse.

But because he's fictional, I have to hold a little bit of praise for the series' staff, because they *did* show a strong character breaking, and doing a bad thing. There's just a kind of realism and fortitude that I appreciate there, even if the act itself is deplorable.

I'd like to think Goliath would soon realize what he'd really asked the Magus to do, and make a confession to the members of his clan at some point. It would be a very hard thing for all involved, but I can't see him just not doing it.

And to deal with an older topic, count me as one of those who thinks that Xanatos isn't just going to be good pals with the Gargoyles from now on. I'm not saying he'll necessarily betray them, but...he's a complex man.

The ethics of suicide in the real world I'm not going to touch; the issue is too complicated.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Often people who think sucide is the coward's way out don't know anyone who tried or succeeded in committing sucide. It may not be the BEST choice, but I think you have to be pretty brave to stare death in the face and do so on your own choice, rather than waiting for the inevitable.
Siren

Sorry about the double post. I watched that 3D Gargoyles earlier I would love to know what they are saying.

Another thing there is a site called 90s cartoons with most all the 90s cartoons on it including Gargoyles.

http://www.90scartoons.co.uk/

Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

I'm never a big fan of 'What if' Fanfics, I tried reading What if Elisa did die in Deadly Force, I just couldn't get into it.I liked reading Christine Morgan's Fanfics but my favourite Fanfic Author is The Barracuda. I also enjoy reading the fanfics by Allaine, Dylan P. Blacquire, Spacebabie and Donald E. Fleming. What really annoyes me that a alot of other fanfic authors never finish off stories.

Sadly I don't write fanfics, I love to, I'm good at planning them out but its the writing the story that I find hard. I don't have that spark. but the ones who do have the spark Well done.

Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Why does Goliath look so emaciated?

FYI, all web site issues I noted this morning have been resolved.

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"When you work with handcuffs as long as I have, you pick up a few tricks. " - Elisa Maza

I thought this was cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHRLt3XBHn8

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........oh, and my new gamertag on xbox live for 360 is "I am Goliath"

ArkansasMezzo> Yeah, that's a pretty good one. My favorite story of Christine's was the remake of the TGC episode "For it may come true...". I thought it was a lot of fun.
And for the record, Christine Morgan is the only fanfic I've ever liked. She's a great writer.

As for Goliath's suicide, well, after thinking about it a bit more, I do feel that the eggs were his responsibility, but I'm beginning to think that Goliath was just too torn up by everything to be able to raise the eggs properly. I can see why he may have felt they would be better in the hands of Katharine and the Magus, even though those two had only recently changed their views. Goliath was just a wreck.

Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Goliath's Suicide> One of the best fanfics I've ever read deals with the question of "What if?". What if Goliath hadn't requested that the Magus "cast his spell one more time"? What if, when Demona returned to the sacked Castle Wyvern, Goliath was awake and alive? It's incredibly thought-provoking. I read it for the first time a few summers ago, and it's the only fanfic I've actually re-read because I remembered how good it was.

Voici the link: http://www.eskimo.com/~vecna/might01.html

(The story is "What Might Have Been" by Christine Morgan. And it's only PG-13, so even if you aren't a fan of her "mature readers only" fanfics, you should still check this one out.)

dph> Duh! College textbook store! I should have thought about that possibility.... Thanks for the tip - I'll have to check it out when I get back from summer travels. (I doubt they have too many comic book stores in Aspen ....) And I commiserate (eek, spelling?) with you on the lack of choices in our natural state. I hate hearing about movies coming out in "select cities" and knowing that it'll make it to Arkansas in, oh, two months. :)

ArkansasMezzo
I'll find something to put here.

ArkansasMezzo - <Actually, maybe you can help me with that, fellow Arkie? Or do you buy over the Internet, too?> No, I bought the last two issues at a comic book store. Let me rephrase that. I bought the last two issues inside a comic book store that was inside a college textbook store. The guy ordered it for me, no deposit required, just a name and phone number. I also verified that a couple of days in advance that the comic was ordered. Which city are you in? Don't you also hate the lack of variety in movies you can rent from a store?

In my city, we had a new Best Buy open with a section of videos called "Disney". Guess what was missing.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

VAEVICTIS - Yes. The interesting thing is that it wasn't until Greg gave that little "behind-the-scenes" explanation that I fully realized that Goliath was making a suicide request. When I first saw "Awakening", precisely because it started off with that scene in modern-day New York with all the stones falling from the top of the Eyrie Building, it was obvious to me that the gargoyles were going to be awakened in the 20th century. But when I looked at it from the knowledge of the characters in the story, I realized that they didn't know that someday somebody would have the ability to make the castle rise above the clouds. Goliath didn't think that Hudson, the trio, and Bronx would ever be awakened.

BISHANSKY - I've often thought myself that Demona's failing to go to the eggs' rescue is part of his unacknowledged guilt connected to the Wyvern Massacre, alongside failing to warn the gargoyles about the Vikings. (In fact, Demona committed three acts of cowardice on the occasion of the Massacre: first, hiding outside the castle rather than warn the rest of the clan, second, hiding again from Goliath when he got back rather than letting him know that she was still alive, and third, letting Princess Katharine and the Magus take the eggs away.)

Though I'd say that it's a good thing that she let them take the eggs away. I shudder to think about the kind of parental upbringing that she'd have given the clan's young when they hatched. Those thirty-six hatchlings were far better off with the now-repentant Princess Katharine and Magus than with Demona.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Todd >> The suggestion also makes more sense. Offering to turn Goliath to stone doesn't seem like making amends to me -- not when nobody expected the gargoyles to ever wake up.
Vaevictis Asmadi

JURGAN> You don't know me. You don't know what I've been through in my life, and I have dealt with suicidal people before too, so don't tell me to shut up.

I know people who have killed themselves, and I think they were cowards. I have no respect for anyone who kills them selves. As I have said, it is the ultimate act of cowardess and selfishness. The only ones hurt are the people who love them. Speaking from my own personal experience in this matter, I feel very strongly about this.

And no, I'm not talking about someone who's already very sick and has to choose between a quick, peaceful death or a slow, painful death. That is an understandable choice.

Goliath had eggs in the Rookery to takecare of, and he did not take responsibility for it. Think about it. Only in the last few hours did Princess Katharine and the Magus seem to have a change of heart. How did he know it would have lasted? It's a miracle they didn't abandon the eggs to Constantine. Don't get me wrong, I think they both became great heroes, but he had no way of knowing they would. These were his children, and he was handing them over to people who have shown his kind nothing but contempt. Forget how we know it turned out and think about this within the moment.

Just for the record, I am not absolving Demona of any responsibility here also. She should have taken custody of those eggs... again, forget what we know happened. Demona didn't know of their change of heart. All she knows is they cursed the survivors of her clan. For all she knew, they were planning to make omelettes out of those eggs.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Let me tell you something. Nowadays, everybody's got to go to shrinks and counselors and go on Sally Jesse Raphael and talk about their problems. Whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong silent type? That was an American. He wasn't in touch with his feelings. He just did what he had to do. See what they didn't know was once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings was that they wouldn't be able to shut him up and then it's dysfunction this and dysfunction that and dysfunction va fa culo!" -Tony Soprano

"You said Xanatos is a bad guy.
Jurgan implies that Xanatos has decided to be good, with respect to the gargoyles, in response to their saving his son.
I am saying that neither statement is helpful. What Xanatos does is a more a function of his state of mind at the moment."

He said he felt a debt to them, and I believe he said it was one he could never repay, or something like that. I doubt he suddenly decided it was paid off. I also don't think he's going to be exactly the same as he always was in every other respect, but on the other hand, he's not going to be Bruce Wayne. He's a complex character who's going through a lot of changes.

"Tony> I like Goliath, but I can safely say that I would not have killed myself. Especially not if there were others (like the eggs) who were my responsibility.

Suicide is the coward's way out. I like Goliath, but he was a pussy there."

Wow, Greg, it's too bad you weren't there to save the day! You're so much tougher than Goliath!

Seriously, SHUT UP. I've dealt with suicidal people. I used to think that it was the cowards' way out, and maybe it is, but thinking that way doesn't help anything. Sometimes people get overwhelmed by life and can't take it anymore. It's a terrible thing, and I don't think blaming is the way to respond. Depression is one of those diseases that people blame the victim for. I doubt you've ever had anything happen to you the extent of what Goliath went through, and besides which, you're a different person. I think it's disgusting to say someone is a "pussy" for making a mistake that, sadly, far too many people make.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher

CreatureComics.org is hosted on the same server that CrzyDemona and I use. There are currently issues with domain redirects and e-mail being non-functional. I have been going back and forth with the tech support people for over 18 hours now. We're hoping things will be restored soon, but I can't give an exact timeframe. In the meanwhile, the site IS still there and can be viewed by going to:

http://www.artchicks.org/creaturecomics/

And now, because I haven't had enough aggravation this morning... I'm off to the BMV for license plates.

15 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"When you work with handcuffs as long as I have, you pick up a few tricks. " - Elisa Maza

Of course, the thing that I always find myself reminded most of during the "Goliath's suicide" discussion was Greg's "behind-the-scenes" revelation that they were originally going to have the Magus offer to turn Goliath to stone as a way of making amends, but then one of Greg's higher-ups said, "No, no, no. Have Goliath become so grief-stricken over the loss of his clan that he begs the Magus to turn him to stone." And as Greg said, that really is a remarkable thing - an executive for an animated series whose immediate target audience (officially) was children coming up with something that would make the story much darker as well as more dramatic, instead of trying to soften it up. But it was certainly a great suggestion on his part.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but creaturecomics.com isn't working. Does anyone have any information on this?
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Goliath did the cowardly thing when he asked to be put under the spell seeing as how the eggs were his responsibiltiy. But I can't totally fault him for doing it. I think his grief was so great at the time that he knew he didn't have the strength to take care of the eggs. None of us here have been in a situation like that so can we say for sure what we would do?
Goilath's whole world, the only life he had known was taken away-all his loved ones gone-Goliath couldn't deal with it, he had reached a breaking point. It is one of the most heart-rendering moments of the series. I just think it would be interesting if the subject were to arise within the clan.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny

Phil> I would personally love if gargoyles were somehow involved in the second revolution in France. (The "Barricade" Revolution, which sprang up after the "French Revolution" proper, and died very quickly.) Les Mis was one of my first loves - first the musical, then the novel - a love that led me to Paris and speaking French (but not in that order). When you think about it, it's pretty cool what innocent childhood obsessions can do for you in your adult life. (Just like Gargoyles is the whole reason I got into Shakespeare and mythology - which, as I understand, was one of Greg's goals for the series - and I fell for it gladly!)

Abby> Les Mis> "...Some scenes, like the one in the sewers, seem to go on a bit too much..." Amen, sister! Like the first fifty stinkin' pages of the book! How long does Monsieur Hugo expect his audience to wait for the main character to arrive? I mean, the Bishop of Digne is pretty interesting, but not enough to warrant fifty dad-gum pages (yes, I just said "dad-gum") of introduction dedicated to his peaceful and utterly uneventful life in the countryside! And don't even get me started on the neverending chapter on Waterloo - I nearly pulled my hair out!

*remembers that this is a _Gargoyles_ comment room* *sheepishly*

Oh yeah, good luck getting a copy of #4. :) It's worth the wait. I'm trying to decide whether I want to avoid spoilers for Bad Guys, or whether reading about it will make the actual issue that much better. What do you guys think? Is it better to read the issue "untainted," or "primed" with spoilers? (It's cheaper for me to order Bad Guys and Gargoyles together over the Internet and combine shipping, since comic stores in Arkansas suck.)

d_p_h of rules> Actually, maybe you can help me with that, fellow Arkie? Or do you buy over the Internet, too?

As Tanika used to say, and perhaps still does,
Clear skies.

ArkansasMezzo
I'll find something to put here.

Did Goliath have that much confidence in Princess Catherine to take care of the eggs, or did he just not give a shit anymore?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Yeah, he HADN'T lost everything. He still had those kids down in the rookery.

And for the record, he didn't know Demona was involved in the Massacre until he had awakened.

Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Tony> I like Goliath, but I can safely say that I would not have killed myself. Especially not if there were others (like the eggs) who were my responsibility.

Suicide is the coward's way out. I like Goliath, but he was a pussy there.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

I tried putting myself in Goliath's "shoes" so to speak in "Awakening". It's just another day, protecting the castle, to be betrayed by his friend and his love. He not only loses his clan and his love at first, but then he loses his chance for revenge and then loses the rest of his clan to eternal stone sleep.

Goliath has lost everything. He has nothing left to lose, so he commits suicide, just like any other person would do when they have nothing left to lose. It's so powerful and strikes a chord in my mind every time I watch it. Cast your spell, one more time...

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Goliath's suicide: From the perspective of the original Manhattan Clan, Goliath could have been put under the spell involuntarily as far as they knew. Maybe he just let them continue to think that. Although, that might run counter to what Greg said.
Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
Noodles, anyone?

Now that canon Gargoyles is up and running again, I'm content to sit back and just let it play out. Greg said he'll get to everything eventually.
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

How interesting that Jean Valjean would be a real person in the Gargoyles Universe - some kind of encounter with him would be lots of fun! (Incidentally, the guy Jean carried into the sewers was Marius - the man who eventually married Valjean's "adopted" daughter Cosette).

(I read Les Miserables last year and enjoyed most of it very much - though some scenes, like the one in the sewers, seem to go on a bit too much).

Back to Gargoyles...I've been avoiding the CR the last few weeks while waiting for my copy of issue #4. However, today I learned that my city's leading comics chain (which has been pretty reliable in providing issues 1-3) still has no copies of #4 - and their computers show no release information. I did encourage them to check into it and and order some, however.

So I've been reading all the comments and spoilers and look forward to finally seeing it for myself (especially Angela and Broadway as Oz characters)...even if I must order from Amazon or SLG itself.

Abby

I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure part of "Les Miserables" is set around the events of the Revolution of the Barricades, which did not last all that long in the book. Immediately after the Barricade fails, Valjean takes the guy (I forget his name) into the sewers in order to escape to safety. That's all I can remember at the moment of importance.
Asatira

I don't think that Greg ever said anything about Philibert having anything to do with the Praying Gargoyle. It seems to be general Parisian history, instead.

But the "Les Miserables" connection might be why Greg's included the Revolution of the Barricades in his timeline. He said once that he saw Jean Valjean as a real person within the Gargoyles Universe.

It's appropriate that we're getting all these references to French history in the timeline, since France and Scotland (the original home of so many "Gargoyles" characters) were allied during most of the Middle Ages (it helped that both were at odds with England throughut that period). The alliance finally came to an end after Scotland went Protestant while France remained Roman Catholic (one of the last traces of that alliance, as far as I recall, was when Mary Queen of Scots was briefly married to the French king Francis II).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Vaevictis: Thanks for replying--

You're right, I doubt that Goliath would outright lie. Though I have doubts that he told everybody. From what Greg W. had said, I take it that Goliath probably did mention it to Angela. I tend to think at some point, he would have told or will tell Elisa about it as well. Not too sure about the others though--maybe Hudson. I don't believe the others would think badly of him for it, well except Demona, who is the world's biggest hypocrite.

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny

It's also possible that the Notre Dame clan was involved in the Revlution of the Barricades, though 1832 seems a little late for a full fledge gargoyle clan to still be kicking around. Maybe there will still remnants of the clan in the area? Or maybe Greg just likes to throw in bits of non-gargoyle related history to mess with us?

Disregard if Greg ever gave a concrete date for when the original Notre Dame clan was wiped out.

Demonskrye

"I'd guess that the Revolution is related to Greg's previous mention of the Paris Catacombs and Philibert Aspairt, but what have they to do with Gargoyles?"

Philibert Aspairit was in possession (or possibly the protector) of the "Praying Gargoyle".

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

So, can anyone shed some light on the short-lived Revolution of the Barricades? I know nothing about it except that it has some connection to Les Miserables (which I have not read). I'd guess that the Revolution is related to Greg's previous mention of the Paris Catacombs and Philibert Aspairt, but what have they to do with Gargoyles? Maybe we'll find out when Bad Guys debuts (if I remember correctly, they're based in Paris).
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

So, I finally got my copy of Gargoyles #4. A little late... I know. So, an apology, since you all did this two or three weeks ago, but here are my impressions.

Wow, the art REALLY surprised me. At first I didn't like it, but it grew on me. It was very dynamic.

There was a typo that I noticed, and it really shocked me too. (not that I'm complaining, but) There's been at least one typo in each issue so far. I wonder if they'll be fixed with subsequent reprintings.

I can't wait for Bash. :)

The clones were shocking as well... The whole issue... shocking.

Morgan's adorable.

*rambles*

Samuel - [AnglOfHellO at AOL dot com]
"What sorcery is this?!"

JJ> I didn't say Xanatos was a bad guy. I said he was not one of the good guys. You looked at my post, but you obviously didn't read my post.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

Of course I read your post, Greg. How else could I have mimicked you? ;-)

You said Xanatos is a bad guy.
Jurgan implies that Xanatos has decided to be good, with respect to the gargoyles, in response to their saving his son.
I am saying that neither statement is helpful. What Xanatos does is a more a function of his state of mind at the moment.

JJ Gregarius

"Puck is a trickster, not a genie. Wouldyou really trust a trickster with that much power over you?"

Greg> The way Puck told his tory to the group gathered, he sounded like he was sincere enough that he wouldn't have played a trick on Xanatos, he would have given him the immortality. Besides, Xanatos took the Service from Owen and Puck hasn't really done anything to "trick" Xanatos that we've seen.

Battle Beast - [wlukinuk at telus dot net]
That is all I will say.

Tony> "And if he REALLY wanted to be immortal, he would have chosen that one wish from Puck, but he choice service from Owen instead."

Oh, he wants to be immortal. Xanatos figures there are plenty of OTHER ways for him to become immortal. Owen's service was too valuable to throw away. Hell, he nearly found a way when he captured the Kachina Coyote. He wants it, he just gambled that he'd have another shot.

That and Puck is a trickster, not a genie. Wouldyou really trust a trickster with that much power over you? They always look for a loop hole in your wish to do something to completely screw you over. Look at what Puck did to Demona.

Greg BishanskyJU - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

JJ> Did you read my post? No, of course you didn't.

I didn't say Xanatos and Goliath's current relationship wasn't complex. I just said it wasn't TGC. And, yeah, Xanatos does like Goliath a lot, but he did since season one also. Didn't stop him from pulling any of his schemes.

I just pointed out that he's not Goliath's friend. Still isn't. One day, maybe... but not now.

Greg BishanskyJU - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

Purplegoldfish >> Greg made a response about this. I even managed to find it, OK:

<<This is a great, but VERY complex question.

Even answering just for Angela would require a term paper.

But one thing you need to understand right off the bat is that the "Eggs" were taught their GOLIATH history by Katharine, Tom and the Magus. I doubt Goliath came off as a "bad dad who committed suicide" in their telling of the tale. (Though, that's exactly what happened of course.)

In fact, we have evidence that the clan thought of Goliath as a mystical savior. A Sleeping King who would one day awaken and return when his clan needed him. And isn't that exactly what happened. Tom himself, only a boy when all the bad stuff went down, seemed to feel that finding Goliath would solve all his Archmage problems. (Lucky for him, Elisa and Bronx went along for the ride.)

When you consider the guilt that the Magus (and I assume Katharine) were not shy about revealing, you can see how the story could easily be colored in G's favor.

Now, I'm not saying that every individual garg bought the party line. But, gee, when Goliath did finally show up, things turned out pretty well. With the Archmage, with Oberon. Even the skeptical might have been convinced.

Which really only leaves us with Angela. I feel that after their Nigerian adventure, Goliath would have begun to open up more honestly with her. To reveal truths that he himself might not be conscious of. (After all, she's very intuitive.) She may now know the truth. But to her -- well, my God, there were so many extenuating circumstances. And her life has been so darn great, how's she supposed to complain or feel bitter? It doesn't seem her style.

Anyway, that's what I figure...>>

So that doesn't entire answer your question... did they actually tell the Eggs that he asked to die? My impression is that they did, once or twice, but didn't emphasize it or anything.

Did he ever tell his clan...? Hmm. I don't know if Goliath would outright tell a lie, but lying by omission... maybe he left it for them to assume he was turned the same way, since it was obvious he was sleeping there with them. If they asked maybe he said "yes, I was turned to stone at night also" but didn't elaborate. Probably he is ashamed of it. But the entire circumstance is such a painful and traumatic memory for him, it may be very tangled up in his mind with the massacre itself. I think he probably has not sat down to sort out his feelings about it.

I doubt he's told Elisa the details yet. We know he told her about the massacre, and that the survivors were turned to stone, but I'm guessing he didn't admit to the suicide part.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Incidentally, this is something that I don't know if we'll ever see in the comic, but it's something that I find an amusing possibility.

Castaway starts airing commercials on television in which a family out at night gets ambushed by gargoyles and eaten (or, alternately, rescued by the Quarrymen at the last moment, depending on which he thinks will work better as propaganda - but with the indication that the gargoyles were about to eat the family and would have done so if the Quarrymen hadn't "saved the day"). The scene then immediately switches to Demona watching the ad on her television set; Demona makes a sneering remark about "As if we'd ever be that desperate to let one of those inferior creatures get anywhere near our mouths!"

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I agree that Xanatos is very complex and very intelligent. He has made his share of mistakes (Thailog) and feels the need to still have the "edge" on his enemies from time to time. When you have millions or billions of dollars, you need to stay on top.

And if he REALLY wanted to be immortal, he would have chosen that one wish from Puck, but he choice service from Owen instead. So as long as people/gargoyles continue to serve his needs and desires, then you're not a threat to him. But when you stop helping him out, or appear to be out to get him, then he comes at you full force.

Goliath served him by saving his son. Xanatos has not only given him his home back, but gave Coldstone and Coldfire a new shot at life. So maybe Xanatos feels that his debt will never be repaid, for as he has said, his weakness is love and he loves his son.

TiniTinyTony

I don't know if Xanatos has completely absolved himself of his debt to the gargoyles. They did save his son, twice. I doubt he sees letting them live in the castle as completely re-paying them. By that same token, I think Xanatos is learning. I don't think he's snidely whiplash or the gargoyles' guardian angel. But I think he's learning. He obviously has other goals in his life other than immortality and conquest. He's come to realize he loves Fox, and Alexander.

However, when it comes to the Illuminati... I don't know if he'd tell Goliath about a threat to him so much as try to protect him in his own machiavellian way. Keeping his charge safe, while still benefiting and coming out on top. Now if it were a completely A or B Goliath or Immortality, completely hopeless, he'd have to give up both. Well... that'd never happen because he's Xanatos.

Aldrius
"A weapon deadlier than any in my arsenal... Propaganda!"

Goliath and Xanatos>>
See Greg Weisman's Q&A (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=1557) as follows:

Shavri writes...

I'm curious, how much does Xanatos like Goliath, and in what way? Goliath seems to be his favorite gargoyle, because he was always modeling things after G and so on. Does he think of Goliath as his sort-of friend or his plaything? Because Xanatos really seemed to get a kick out of playing with his emotions and all. Poor Goliath...

Greg responds...

Xanatos likes Goliath a lot. Thinks he's a good guy, if a bit of a stiff. I'm not sure Xanatos yet knows the true meaning of friendship, though his relationship with Owen comes close.

***

From this, I think Xanatos's relation with Goliath is more complex and *dynamic* than what either Greg B. or Jurgan believe.
He's not Snidley Whiplash, people. This isn't that TGC crap. ;-)

Now the question is, does Owen/Puck know what a friend is? Is he even capable of such a human/gargoylian thought?

JJ Gregarius

Here's a thought that just popped into my head that I thought would make an interesting topic...

We all know that Goliath in esscense committed suicide after he found the others turned to stone at night and he thought he was all alone. So here's the question: Did Goliath tell his clan that he requested to be put under the sleep spell after waking in Manhattan? Did he tell Elisa? Did he tell Demona?(before she felt he was better off as target practice). Did he tell Angela?

Some things to consider--What Goliath did was pretty cowardly, especially in gargoyles terms given their nature to protect others before thinking of themselves. Since Goliath believed he was the last gargoyle at the time, not to mention the leader, the gargoyle eggs were his sole responsibility and possiblly their only chance for survival. (Of course evertything worked out for the best in the end but he couldn't have known that.) Katharine and the Magus weren't exactly members of the gargoyles fan club before all this-he had no way of knowing they would keep their word. So essentially, he abandoned his own children to escape his own pain.

Goliath was pretty severely depressed at the time, and I know that shame and depression go hand in hand. I think Goliath would feel very ashamed that he had abandoned the eggs after he awoke--maybe ashamed enough not to tell his clanmates for fear of what they might think of him. Goliath is an honorable gargoyle, but he doesn't seem to like to show weakness and he has been dishonest on some occasions. So I can't help wondering if at some point before Avalon one of the four talking members of the clan asked him, "so, what happened to you after we were put under the sleep spell?"--would he have told the truth? Or would he have made something up, maybe telling them that he was turned to stone the minute he got back from saving the princess, before she arrived on the scene? (I tend to lead towards the latter).

Most likely when Goliath saw his children alive on Avalon, a lot of that guilt went away, but I still don't think he would have told Angela. I also doubt Katharine and the Magus told the Avalon gargs-who seem to hero worship Goliath. I think if I had known that my own father abandoned me to run away from his problems I wouldn't have much respect for him.

This really isn't a topic likely to be explored on a Saturday morning cartoon, but it would be interesting to see it adressed in the comic. Any thoughts on the ramblings of an insomniac? ;)

Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny

I'm going to save Greg B the stress (For his sake and ours) and tell it straight. The Goliath Chronicles episodes Post Journey had him as the unquestionable good guy. Pretty much turned into their benefactor.

There was no scheming on his part. Though I wonder if he would still employ Sevarius should he feel the need. On that note what would Anton cook for breakfast? I'm refering of course to a question Greg answered concerning him.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Frankly, I don't have any memory of TGC Xanatos. All I know is that Xanatos is in Phase #1 of his plan for revealing the Gargoyles to the world.

My question is - what do you all think the Illuminati has planned for him?

TiniTinyTony

JURGAN> And maybe Xanatos feels that debt is paid.

He's not one of the good guys people. This isn't that TGC crap.

Greg BishanskyJU - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

But Xanatos feels a debt to the gargoyles, so he probably would tell them if the Illuminati were seriously threatening them.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher

Tony> Xanatos and Goliath are not on good terms. Xanatos isn't their friend. He's their host. We have not seen them have a conversation at all since the gargoyles have moved back in.

They don't trust Xanatos, they just have no where else to go now.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

I was assuming from the summary of #7, that Xanatos is still on or starting his mission. And Weisman could use a page showing him, frame by frame, in Japan, South America, Africa, wherever the world tour took us, on a fact finding mission of the locations of the gargoyles around the world for the Illuminati.

I don't know Xanatos's mission, it's a guess. Just trying to see what you all think? I think it could be shown frame by frame, and it wouldn't have to take up more than a page or two.

***** #3 Spoilers *****
What else could the Illuminati want right now? Their main focus at the moment seems to be gargoyle related. Why would Weisman spend so much time showing us in #3 Hacker's/The Illuminati's interest with Bluestone, Xanatos, and Castaway's involvement with the Gargoyles.
***** End Spoilers *****

To be my own devil's advocate, now that Xanatos and Goliath are on good terms, would Xanatos share information with Goliath concerning the Illuminati if it was gargoyle sensitive?

I'm probably totally off, but since we have a whole month until #5, what do you all think is going to be Xanatos's mission? Will it be gargoyle related? Could the secret society have heard about Avalon and now they want access to the island and need Xanatos's assistance?

TiniTinyTony

Wow! It even saves my settings! Now if only I had tapped out my name right... Woops!

That's all from me. Move along, citizen...nothing to see here. ^_^;

Kythera of Anevern
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

I beg a moment of indulgence from everyone... I'm testing a newfangled bit of geekery. (That is, I'm test posting using the DS Lite browser.) XD
Kyta of Anevern
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

Hmmm, slow day...

And try as I might I can't think of anything else to add...

Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

:: runs back through in the other direction, still screaming ::

17 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We have so much time, and so little to do! Strike that, reverse it." - Willy Wonka

Tony> How do you figure "something big" like a world tour? Obviously, he gets his mission in #5. #6 is a stand-alone story (based on a script written in 1995)... so #7 would be shortly after.

#7, #8 and #9 are the next episode. This is not a "big carry over."

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

Speaking of the Illuminati...

***** Begin Spoilers *****
...what kind of mission/job do you think they have in mind for Xanatos? It must be something big if it caries on all the way to #7, and who knows if it ends there.

Not knowing Weisman's master plan, the only thing that comes to mind is maybe they will be sending Xanatos on a world tour fact finding mission."
***** End Spoilers *****

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Hey, Gang,

If you have some free time later, would you please check out a podcast interview I did with Tony Tellado of 'Sci-Fi Talk' where we discussed my TV series in development? The project was based on a Gargoyles fan-fic story I wrote back in 1996. To this day I remain a HUGE fan of the show and of series creator, Greg Weisman.

Thank you, kindly!

Kelly J. Compeau

http://showbizprgirl.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-sci-fi-talk-interview.html

Kelly J. Compeau - [mail at showbizmediaservices dot com]

Ultimately, a level-headed Castaway serves the Illuminati's purposes better, as well. I don't think they've managed to work behind the scenes for over 1300 years by doing things to draw attention to themselves.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Teamwork is so overrated." -Thailog ("Sanctuary")

You know what, you are both right. And i think putting himself in the middle wasnt helping either
Demon@

Demon@> But Vinnie almost got killed because he challenged Castaway's POV towards the Gargoyles.

It wasn't because he tried to leave. Or at least it wasn't the only reason, depending on how you look at it.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

Demon@> Well, at that point, Vinnie was a witness to an attempted murder on a police officer.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

I wonder if Dracon will make bail anytime soon in the comics?
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]

Venny tried to leave and he almost got killed in the journey
Demon@

The Quarrymen are not the Mafia. I believe a person can leave without any reprisals. Like HoE said, this is not TGC Castaway we're dealing with. Canon Castaway is actually capable of common sense and rational thinking.

As for Dracon, I recall Greg seeing, if we see him again, he won't be in the position of power we saw him in. Plus, Glasses would strike out on his own. Glasses would have too. He's a close associate of Dracon, but he's not a member of the Family. To be confirmed, you have to be Italian and Catholic. Something Glasses obviously isn't... so, he'll likely be putting his own crew together. Dracon... well, at most he was a capo (at a young age), and when he gets out, I doubt he'll be a capo again.

Todd> Waste management is a very common front for mobsters. Construction also. They have connections with unions, restaurants, night clubs, they have a lot of fronts which bring in a lot of money. Gotta, or the IRS will come down on them.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

Blaise: If someone wanted out, I don't think Castaway would stop them, mainly because he's not the Snidely Whiplash wannabe that the Goliath Chronicles made him out to be. I think his main beef with Vinnie was that Vinnie was actively taking a stand, saying that what Castaway was doing was wrong. And of course there's the more subconscious reason that Vinnie, unlike Castaway, actually had the strength of character to act upon his belief.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Mad Hatter: "May I have that last statement stricken from the record, please?" Joker: "Record? Is someone supposed to be writing this down?"

****A door appears in mid-air and opens. Blaise is ejected from the door at high velocity, smashing into a wall. A female voice from inside the door shouts a few things best not repeated in public, and the door slams shut, vanishing as it does so. Blaise gets up and dusts himself off before yelling at where the door HAD been.**** So, we're cool, right?
Oh, hi guys!

QUARRYMEN> Well, Greg Weisman has mentioned in the past that there would essentially be two "faces" of the Quarrymen--the obvious hooded "vigilante" side, and the more public, "social group" side.
Once the furor over the discovery of the gargoyles dies down, there may be a few dropouts, true...or there may not. Remember, Castaway's speech emphasized "You are no longer alone." Some people still get a kick out of being a part of a social club (especially an exclusive one). It makes them feel...special. And if a few people who were gung-ho to begin with start wondering if "all this hammer stuff is necessary", like Vinnie, then maybe Castaway (assuming he can actually LEARN from his mistakes) will say something like, "No problem, I was thinking of taking us in a more pamphlet/propaganda direction" and direct them to the public face, while continuing to build up the other vigilante face.
Of course, some people may still want out. There's one question you have to ask yourself, though: would Castaway actually LET people just walk away?
At any rate, I have no idea who else (that we've already met) would join the Quarrymen. I find myself wondering about that biker group from way back in "Temptation," though.

DRACON> Assuming his family is a typical "mob" family (and I have NO idea what's typical--I've only seen the movies), then yeah, Dracon REALLY got sloppy with getting caught on tape (his family are probably pretty pissed at him right now, too). Of course, even before that he kidnapped two cops. And if the "Gargoyles" Series Bible's statement that Dracon was the only crime boss in the city who "actually has the guts to take on Xanatos" still holds true, then that's another indicator of just how reckless he is.
Of course, stepping into the real world for a moment, Tony Dracon (and the mob as a whole) was ultimately simplified in "Gargoyles" for the purposes of making him accessible to a younger viewing audience. I mean, seriously, who can get away with "Goodfellas" in an afternoon animated show (short of changing it into a comedy featuring incompetant pigeons)? On the other hand, we speculate on how everything else could fit into the real world, why not Dracon as well? :)

Stick me with a fork, I'm done. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise takes a door out of his pocket (how did it fit in there?) slaps it on the ground, opens it, and begins to walk up...er, down the stairs inside (his gravity changes when he enters). The door slams shut again, and then shrinks until it is no more.****

Blaise
"Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life."--Terry Pratchett's "Jingo"

Vashkoda - I've lost your e-mail address. If you still have mine, please contact me regarding "The Last" at G2007. Will you be attending the con? If so are you bringing the latest version (whatever the latest is) and if not can you get the latest to someone who WILL be in attendance?
Greg Weisman

Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing a new character or two among the Quarrymen.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
Mad Hatter: "May I have that last statement stricken from the record, please?" Joker: "Record? Is someone supposed to be writing this down?"

:: runs through screaming ::

18 days left until The Gathering 2007 in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2007]
"We have so much time, and so little to do! Strike that, reverse it." - Willy Wonka

BISHANSKY - Yes, that would make sense for the Dracon's "front business" to make the donation.

(Waste management? Now there's an appropriate term for a legitimate business front for a crime family! Especially if it spends much of its time rubbing out members and henchmen of the rival business families.)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

So then, any other potential candidates? Like I said, there is the TV Woman.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Todd> Crime Families always have legitimate business fronts. They need them, to avoid the IRS (that's how Al Capone was caught). That's why Tony Soprano is a "waste management consultant."

If Dracon donates any money to the Quarrymen, it would come through one of his front businesses.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

I doubt that Castaway would welcome any contributions from the crime syndicates (like the Dracons) unless it was done in a very top-secret fashion (hidden from the eyes of not only the general public, but even all but the most hardened of his followers). That kind of thing could be potentially damaging for the Quarrymen's PR.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Matt> I've seen nothing to indicate that Dracon or his men know that.
Asatira

Do the Dracon's even know gargoyles turn to stone during the day?
Matt - [St dot Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Antiyonder> And I think a gun is more practical a weapon than a hammer.

The best way for the Dracon Family to avoid the gargoyles is to keep a low profile in their business dealings. That's how the Mafia works. Keep a low profile, don't draw attention to yourself. That's how John Gotti got caught... he reveled in the spotlight. Tony Dracon seems to enjoy the spotlight also. And the way he got caught... pure stupidity on his part. They never, ever come out and say "We'll shut you down, burn you out, or blow you up."

Personally, I'd like to see more of the Dracon Family.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

Greg B> The Gargoyles interfere in his business every ep he was in, so he would probably want to equip him and his men to deal with them. Particle beams only get you so far. And as they say in the infamous Ninja Turtles 3, "It's Hammer Time". Remember that Banquio, Fleance, Chaz and Lou are no humanitarians after all.
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]

Dracon is a business man, he has no real vendetta against the gargoyles, he's Elisa's nemesis more than theirs. So, I don't see him joining the Quarrymen. Hell, I don't see him getting out of jail any time soon either.

But when he does, expect him to go back to the Family business. People like Dracon exist to make money. Where's the profit in joining the Quarrymen? At most, Dracon would donate money to their cause. But he's not joining. Hell, the Boss of the Dracon family would probably want one of his best earners out earning. Not wearing a hood and being a vigilante.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"In these days of widespread illiteracy, functional illiteracy... anything that keeps people stupid is a felony." -Harlan Ellison

A month or two ago, I was wondering if Dracon, Brod or any of their associates would take up the mantle, only to gain an edge against the Gargoyles. But as someone point out, due to Castaway's behavior in #3, he might or might not be willing to recruit known criminals.

Aside from that, any other supporting/minor characters you could see donning the hood. Maybe the TV Woman from City Of Stone Part 3, especially if she finds that she might have been the object of ridicule.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]

Todd: mm i dont know. The KKK is among us for a very loong time, and we are talking about HUMAN discrimination. Dont want to know abouth interspecies discrimination. Probably mercenaries will join the quarrymen from all parts of the world to get a piece of gargoyle and sell it somewhere.
Demon@

"in #4, Sarah is looking at a couple of Quarrymen on patrol uneasily, as if she's starting to wonder if this is really such a good idea after all."

I don't think that's it. I think she's uncomfortable because her comrades saw her with a child dressed as a gargoyle. Certainly they'd frown on that sort of behavior, and may report back to Castaway that she's a bad influence. On the other hand, you're right that, once the initial shock fades away, many of the frightened citizens will probably leave, but I can't imagine that they all will. The ones who stay, though, will become hardened and dangerous fighters themselves. The trick is going to be keeping up recruiting, so that they always have new members coming in.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher

* INVOLVES COMICS-RELATED SPOILERS *

Although the Quarrymen in the comics will obviously not be as hopelessly monolithic as the ones in the Goliath Chronicles, I wonder if Castaway will need to be working hard to keep his organization from going downhill in that direction.

The two members of the group that we know of who come from the "law-abiding citizenry" sector are Vinnie and Sarah Greene. But Vinnie's already left the Quarrymen for good, and in #4, Sarah is looking at a couple of Quarrymen on patrol uneasily, as if she's starting to wonder if this is really such a good idea after all.

On the other hand, the more dedicated members that we know of (aside from Castaway, of course) are Banquo and Fleance (both mercenaries) and Fang's henchmen from "Kingdom". it looks as if the more lawless element is more at ease with the group. (Maybe that's not so surprising, since I suspect that once the initial shock of discovering that gargoyles exist fades, a lot of the frightened citizens would start wondering whether a vigilante response to the gargoyles might be one of those cases where the cure's more dangerous than the disease.) At least Castaway's got the sense to make certain that they don't go armed on Halloween night.

Of course, this is just four issues in, and we don't know what's going to be developing with the Quarrymen in future issues. We do know that they'll still be around by 2198, though not much about what form they'll take by then.

* SPOILERS END *

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

::Sneaks back in from the places that she's been lost in and lurks in the rafters::
Aingeal (aka Spennig, lately)
"... the shortest way to a man's heart is 6" of steel between the ribs..." ~Anita Blake

10th in the name of issue #5 be released on time.
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Ninth!

I thought Joel Schumacher was the greatest talent in Hollywood.

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
"I've seen all your movies." "You're a big fan?" "No. You're bound to make something good eventually." --exchange between Dot Warner and Joel Shumacher (I can't remember the actual quote)

8th in the name of Spider Man 3 AWESOME
Demon@

7th!

And, it's bed time.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"[George Bush] has created so many disasters, I'm not sure he knows which is which anymore. He walked into Walter Reed and said he wanted to have it ready for next year's Mardi Gras." -Bill Maher

Sixth!
Phoenician - [<---My Kinda Useless Blog]
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

5th-
aepuise

4
Asatira

Looks like I'm am number three
Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Humans are such easy prey for a gargoyle!........oh, and my new gamertag on xbox live for 360 is "I am Goliath"

2
JJ Gregarius

1st in the name of VidTheKid's b-day!
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.