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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending February 19, 2012

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Gargoyles in the 80s - Angela/Elisa would probably be the damsel in distress and would get into trouble almost every episode.
VickyUK - [vickysunseeker@aol.com]

TGS: As I brought up recently, it's kind of puzzling. Usually fanfics based off cartoons (mostly for kid and the general audience) go for a more "mature" (some do better than others) take.

Yet, TGS is actually an opposite in that regard (Takes a mature and sophisticated property and makes a more simplified continuation).

Antiyonder

Only reason I brought up TGC to be honest was because it seemed like the closest thing to Greg B's "Gargoyles as made in the 1980s" list, and I wanted to see if he agreed with the similarities.
Antiyonder

(Gargoyles fight off evil...)
Stone by day, warriors by night
Taking prisoners, taking flight
Disney's way of showing they
Don't have to be so prissy gay.

Gargoyles got the shaft in their day
Their pals got smashed into ashtrays.
Now in the future,
They will return
And they're pissed off to be here!

Gargoyles live to serve and protect
With help from the cast of Star Trek
Seriously
They're like half of the voices
I mean, they're all good actors and everything
But it's weird!

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/theme-lyrics/5343-gargoyles

Algernon

Gargoyles in the 80's... I've toyed with a fic like that, as part of my larger (if now mostly abandoned) Gargoyles/TMNT fic-verse, the idea being that if the gargoyles are we know them are counterparts to the 2003 turtles, then the 1987 turtles would have counterparts as well. It'd mostly involve ideas Weisman as Gargoyles took shape, some of the stuff y'all have mentioned here, and basically my ideas of what a concept like Gargoyles if they appeared in episodes of TMNT. It's never really gotten anywhere outside the conceptual stage.

Favorite romantic moment: I'd have to say it's probably Goliath and Elisa in Halloween, in "Eye of the Beholder". They're not a couple yet--I don't think they even suspect that they'd ever be, at this point--but the love just shines through in the animation and acting.

Ian - [ianj.perez@gmail.com]

Lauren: That would be The Gargoyles Saga (better known as TGS). As Greg said, there has never been any involvement from the "Gargoyles" production team, but I still think it was a pretty good continuation. If you click my name, you'll get a link to the TGS site. And as Greg said, be sure to check out the comics, too.

Thanks for expressing interest in the series; the current staff finds it encuraging to know there are people who still want to read the stories.

Spen

REBEL> << I always thought it would be cool if Gargoyles had an intro song>>

They do have an intro song. A custom one that has never been played inside an episode either.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Matt > Now that's one change I would not have minded. I always thought it would be cool if Gargoyles had an intro song, with the visuals being custom-animated for the song rather than just clips pulled from the show.
Rebel

Gargoyles in the 80s> History would be mutable. In any give time travel episode, the bad guy would change history...For some reason the change would be visible in the present and the characters would notice--without explanation--Lex would build the time machine, and they'd go back in time to fix the problem.
Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

Gargoyles in the 80s> Don't forget the title sequence/theme song. It would've been FAR more upbeat and catchy.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

HARLAN> I do see your point. Honestly, I don't think there's much more to say about TGC at this point. We kinda exhausted every aspect of it's horribleness a long time ago.

But the Comment Room is awfully quite these days and I think a lot of folks will jump on any topic they can get. Maybe tomorrow, I'll post a topic or two I've been wanting to bring up and see if we can get people jawing again.

Algernon

Another one for the "What if 'Gargoyles' had been an 80's cartoon".

Bronx might have been able to speak, or at least, make noises that would sound halfway between speech and a gargoyle beast's growls.

Todd Jensen

That's a TGS story and no creators of Gargoyles were involved. At all.

If you want to see the real season three by the original creator, check out the graphic novels. :)

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Lauren>I don't read fanfic, so I can't help there, but I will point out that your memory is slightly faulty: no fan productions have been sanctioned by any of the creative staff.

Don't wanna be rude, but I wanna clear that up.

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

Does anyone remember a website that existed a few years ago that was supposedly made by one of the official creators/writers/directors of the series? I've been trying to find it again and I've had no luck so I was hoping someone could help.

I remember they were writing their own season 4 and in one of the stories, Lex and Broadway were turned into humans and Lex, I believe, competed in a video game tournament of some sort. If anyone knows of which website I speak of, please send me the link or let me know if it's still up or not.

Lauren - [LLJade@aol.com]

Antiyonder>"Now considering that The Goliath Chronicles had cliched stories and characters,"

Though not a great show by any stretch nor unique in this regard, the Goliath Chronicles kind of has the distinct moniker of being one of the few 90's cartoons to actually do a now Whedon-esque seasonal antagonist and plot structure. The 90's greats tended to have large Rogues Galleries (Gargoyles, B:TAS) or one present antagonist who remained undefeated season by season (Beast Wars or, in the case of War Planets, a villain that essentially won). TGC Castaway is kind of a very simplified, cartoon-y example of what's now most people's preferred method of arcing television plots.

It doesn't do it WELL, but it's still an interesting thing. Ignoring the terribleness, the Goliath Chronicles had a distinct arc structure that would become far more common many years later in its medium. This amuses me.

(It may seem like I white knight Goliath Chronicles with how often I try to post relative to it with little negativity or mockery, but truth be told I just think pointing at TGC and laughing gets so old when you might be able to get an interesting conversation out of it.)

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

HARLAN> Ah, but Fire Storm Goliath never made it into the series....... ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Bishanky>"- At some point, Goliath, Hudson and Brooklyn would have gained elemental control over fire, water, and ice respectively."

http://gargwiki.net/Eye_of_the_Storm

Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

And Xanatos never returns to the Eyrie after his initial defeat, instead relocating to a secret underground lair of evil, with all dark colors and robot servants and a skull motif.
Ross

"At some point, Goliath, Hudson and Brooklyn would have gained elemental control over fire, water, and ice respectively." - GregB.

And don't forget Lex and Broadway's "hard-wired" adventures in cyber-space! XD

Anonymous

That list is hilarious and disturbing at the same time.
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Great list, Bishansky, but you missed one:

If Goliath and Xanatos would have ever done a "City of Stone"-type team-up, Goliath would have proposed it, Xanatos stubbornly resisted it at first, provided only minimal assistance, and would have double-crossed Goliath the moment the emergency was over (or maybe even before).

Todd Jensen

PATRICK - Yes, that was a partial influence (the line shows up in the original book, by the way, as well as the movie) - mixed with the story about how George Duke of Clarence was drowned in a barrel of malmsey wine (it shows up in Shakespeare's "Richard III", and we know how linked to Shakespeare the Gargoyles Universe is).
Todd Jensen

ANTIYONDER> I haven't watched TGC in many, many years. But yes, I think so.

For anyone wondering, here's the write-up:

A lot of people are nostalgic for 80's cartoons. They call that the best period in TV animation ever (those people are mentally ill). So, what if "Gargoyles" was an 80's cartoon.

- Goliath and his clan would never have evacuated the castle.

- Elisa Maza would have been a man. She'd have probably been Matt Bluestone, actually.

- Goliath would have no character flaws, whatsoever.

- New gargoyles would appear, as members of Goliath's clan, out of no where.

- Angela would have worn pink. Hell, Angela would have BEEN pink!

- Lexington would be such a savant, he could build space ships, time machines, dimensional gateways, and anything.

- Brooklyn would talk like Michelangelo in the 80's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. He'd also be Angela's love interest.

- Broadway would be, well, do I need to tell you what kind of stereotype he'd be?

- Xanatos would have been a straight up criminal "mastermind" who's plans never worked. The Pack would have been his incompetent henchmen. Owen wouldn't exist. Demona and Sevarius would be his two more competent, but still unsuccessful henchmen.

- Demona would not be Goliath's ex-mate (because that would mean they once had sex). She'd either be Goliath's former friend, former rival, or rival sister. I imagine she'd serve as Xanatos's Starscream... with a matching track record.

- Sevarius as a mad scientist would be an expert in EVERYTHING.

- The major plot line would have involved Xanatos wanting to gather together the three great talismans so he could rule the world. This would never get resolved.

- Xanatos would wear a mask and you'd never see his face. Probably a cape, too. Also, you'd never hear the name "David." He would just be "Xanatos."

- Alex Xanatos would never exist.

- Thailog would exist and remain loyal to Xanatos.

- The motorcycle and helicopter would have been in every episode.

- At some point, Goliath, Hudson and Brooklyn would have gained elemental control over fire, water, and ice respectively.

- William Shakespeare? Who is that? Some English fart? He doesn't sell toys.

- Goliath and Xanatos would join forces to battle an evil drug dealer! Because drugs are so evil, even the evil criminal masterminds think they're bad! Nancy Reagan would give Goliath a medal at the end.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Greg B> Something I was wondering about. Several times before, on this and other pages, you've made a list of character traits that the cast of Gargoyles would have had if the show was made in the 80s. Which for anyone not reading the list, basically describes the cast in a cliched role.

Now considering that The Goliath Chronicles had cliched stories and characters, would you find that to be an accurate and literal example of what Gargoyles would be like in the 80s or close enough?

Antiyonder

PATRICK> Ever read Harvester of Eyes' fanfic about Demona in the Scrooge role? It's brilliant!
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Todd - Demona might have a lot in common with Ebeneezer Scrooge.

"If I could work my will, every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' on his lips should be boiled with his own pudding and buried with a stake of holly through his heart." - A Christmas Carol (1984 film version)

Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Matt & Algernon> This is what Greg had to say about a potential story where Xanatos takes advantage of Goliath's absence.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=6054

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=10012

Richard Jackson

Algernon> Are you sure Greg said that? I thought he said they couldn't come up with a story like that.

In my mind, outside the events of "Kingdom", "Pendragon" and "The Green", it was probably business as usual for the Manahattan Clan. And Brooklyn clearly became a more confident leader during that time.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Supermorff> Thank you.
Richard Jackson

Richard> Done. Someone else can add a picture.
Supermorff

Two months too late for this creativity demon, but I have a mental image of Demona, one December after she had to be out on the streets of New York in the daytime as part of one of her schemes, deciding that if one more human wishes her a "Merry Christmas", she's drowning him/her in a barrel of egg nog.

I certainly wouldn't recommend singing carols or trick-or-treating outside Demona's house. (And if she did give out candy to the trick-or-treaters, I wouldn't eat it unless it had been thoroughly examined in a lab - and maybe not even then.)

Todd Jensen

ADAM> Greg did say he had any idea for a story involving Xanatos taking advantage of Goliath and Elisa's absence. If we ever get more comics, I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up as a flashback story ala Bash.
Algernon

When (not if) Gargoyles comes back, is anyone as interested in me of seeing what Hudson and the Trio did during the Avalon World Tour? I would really like to see how Brooklyn's leadership style. I think this is one of the few times that we get to see Brooklyn as a leader why still young (except maybe the time when Goliath was watching Demona and Fang in the Labyrinth). What do you guys (and gals) think?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

BB> I think most every human holiday annoys Demona to whatever extent she acknowledges them at all.
Algernon

I agree that she wouldn't acknowledge Valentine's day to ANYONE, but she's gotta think about it once in a while. She came up with the password "Alone," not the Weird Sisters. She had to get it from somewhere. The Weird Sisters only brought the Emotions to the surface... they were trapped inside Demona's bitter, wretched soul.

And yah, the holiday probably annoys the hell out of her. No doubt about that.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

TODD> She goes where ever she thinks will benefit her schemes the most. And she still wants to take control of the Manhattan Clan, and she can't do that from in the wilderness.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

I agree that Demona doesn't care about human holidays, but as long as she's living in New York and turns into a human in the daytime, she's going to have a hard time avoiding them. And seeing the trappings of a human holiday dedicated to romantic love all around her is bound to annoy her. (I think that if it provoked an emotional response from her, it would more likely be rage than tears.)

I wonder whether Demona often considers moving from New York to some wilderness location where she'll be far from humans and won't be seeing them and their ways all the time. But she probably puts up with city life for the moment since it would be a lot harder to get the magical or high-tech equipment for her "wipe out humanity" schemes if she's out in the woods somewhere. (I wonder whether Demona, if she did succeed in wiping out humanity and survived, would get a kick out of watching their cities crumble away, year by year. At least, as much as she gets pleasure out of anything.)

Todd Jensen

A new profile that could be created for Gargwiki is the lyre that was found in Merin's cave. Greg Weisman wondered in his ramble for "ALITSOT" about whatever happened to the lyre and he said in another answer that he would have explored the lyre's fate in Pendragon.

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=5768

http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=103

I'm feeling kind of lazy these days. So if someone else wants to write it, be my guest. There's the source material.

Richard Jackson

The whole exchange with Lex and the London gargoyles really gives a great sense of awareness of just how fractured the remaining clans are. Even a clan that is strong in terms of gargoyle population lacks beasts. And in ancient times it seems that when a gargoyle clan would grow too large for a territory, some members would split away to form a new clan elsewhere. But in modern times, this doesn't seem to be the case anymore... at least not for now. Colonizing new lands brings new risk to many clans. Or maybe there is just no where to go. So all these clans have become so isolated and small groups of beasts were not viable, so they probably died out in many clans. And even where numbers were strong, there was no place or chance to expand. So, for probably a long time, the remainging clans have been stagnating largely.

Of course, in the next few centuries, that will change drastically. By 2198, the clans have united into a unified Gargoyle Nation, they have formed two new clans (and are on the verge of collectively forming a new one), all the clans have reached (or are reaching) viable populations and (thanks in large part to the Xanadu Clan, no doubt) most or all of the clans will have beast populations.

Cool stuff.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Todd> Based purely on Griff's pained expression in Issue #8, I would venture a guess that the last of the London Clan's beasts died out relatively recently. Between 1940 and 1996. You don't miss something that you never had.

Of course, I could be reading too much into it...

Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

BATTLE BEAST> As if she would acknowledge a human holiday. At all.

She is lonely all year, she doesn't need a human holiday that I doubt she cares about (or any other holiday) for that.

No, I don't think she cries. If anything, after a thousand years, I think her emotions are stunted to a point where it would take a lot to get to her like that... it took Weird Sisters messing with her mind and a real emotional breakdown to do that in City of Stone.

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Todd> What Demona does on Valentine's day? Maybe she cries. After all, her password was "Alone," so maybe she gets lonely on Single's Awareness Day. She probably is terribly angry at all three people you mentioned, but she could also be terribly lonely and miserable that she literally has no one in her life. Just a thought.
Battle Beast - [Canada]
I DID IT!!! I WATCHED ALL 485 BEST PICTURE NOMINEES IN ONE YEAR!!!

I've stayed out of the Michael Bay discussion so far, but found one response to the "Transformer 4" news that I had to share here, from the blog of the guy who writes "Nodwick" and "P.S. 238".

"He's starting to seem like hurricane season: You know it's coming, there are names involved, and the smartest thing to do is evacuate."

Todd Jensen

CHIP> I'd have never guessed. ;)
Algernon

Adam> It probably depends on how you asked it and what exactly you said.

As for clans I'd like to be a part of, it is hard to answer that question. I like being a human. However, I'd love to be a friend to a clan like Elisa or Hiroshi. And my favorite clan is the Mayan Clan, as always.

Random thought I had this morning: was there ever a point in the show (or has Greg ever mentioned) if Xanatos (circa 1997) is actually the richest person in the world? At least of those known to the general public.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Looks like Greg is down to only 60 question left in the unanswered section, which means we can probably star asking questions soon. Last week I ask a question here about the Xanadu clan and got an answer from Matt I believe. If I where to ask Greg that same question, do you think he would give us an answer that would be useful to us or would he give a "no comment" or "not answering at this time" answer?
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

CHIP - I'm curious about when the London clan's beasts died out (if they ever had any), particularly since "The Hound of Ulster" hinted that gargoyle beasts were the source of the black dogs of British and Irish legend. How late in history were gargoyle beasts still alive in the British Isles? All that we know is that there was one gargoyle beast left in Ireland during Cuchulain's original lifetime (traditionally, the early 1st century A.D., which Greg Weisman's followed).

Of course, some of those "black dog" sightings might actually have been Children of Oberon in the Gargoyles Universe....

Todd Jensen

Adam> London Clan for me. I have a distinct mix of English and Scottish in my ancestry (with a little Amerind and Gypsy thrown in) But when I imagine myself as a gargoyle, (which is likely more than I should) it's usually with a mix of heraldic and aquatic features. A leonine form with a fish-like tail and ears like Broadway or Othello's.

Plus, I find the clan interesting, and am curious about their history. When their beasts died off, how they feed such a large clan, how much of the land is theirs, is that river we saw a tributary of the Thames, etc. I give them a lot of thought.

Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

On that note, I enjoy the country... every time I fly over it.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Adam> Probably Manhattan. I am a big city person.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

Blaise> "What were your favorites?"

Goliath/Elisa, David/Fox, and Angela/Broadway. In no particular order.

Since you brought up "un-relationships", my favorite one of those would be Brooklyn/Angela. Apart from her chemistry with Broadway just being more interesting and realistic to me, and the fact that Brooklyn was obviously more interested in her as a female than in her as her, the idea always struck me as, well, contrived - that the most popular (and conventionally attractive by human standards) member of the trio would be the one that the new and only female character would fall for. Too obvious a convention. (I'm extremely eager to learn more about his relationship with Katana.)

"What were some of your favorite romantic moments?"

Macbeth and Gruoch's final goodbye on Lunfanan Hill. Gets me choked up every time I watch it.

Todd> "I've sometimes wondered what Castaway was thinking when he tried to kill Elisa alongside Goliath in "The Journey". Remember, she's not only a human, but a police officer (though we don't know if he knew that). If the Quarrymen became associated with the term "cop-killer", it would lead to some real public image problems for them. I can only assume that he'd let his hatred overwhelm him."

I think that's very likely, especially given that he was fighting Goliath, who, aside from Demona, is probably the individual gargoyle he hates the most.

Adam> Mmm... of the ones we've met so far, probably the Mayan Clan. I'm not a "big city" person. Plus they could use more adult members right now.

Ross

Young Justice comic #13 is out today. Preview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=11489 Buy digitally: http://www.comixology.com/Young-Justice-2011-13/digital-comic/NOV110225
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Adam> I'd love to be in the London Clan, myself. Entirely because of their culture being based around maintaining Into The Mystic.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

I do recall the story, but it lacked Castaway's attempt at ruining the holiday. Oh and for good measure (sarcasm), have Brooklyn trying to catch one of the female cast members under a mistletoe.
Antiyonder

ANTIYONDER> Wasn't that a TGS story?
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

I meant to say, gather for Christmas Dinner.
Antiyonder

Todd> Can't really figure Castaway's intent, but would it really be anymore different than Demona's willingness to harm another gargoyle (especially since her rationalization is to protect her kind)?

Algernon> I'll play. In addition to that, he would also threaten to steal Christmas from Manhattan unless the clan surrendered to him.

And for an added touch (making such an episode as cliched as possible), the Manhattan Clan, the Xanatos family and Demona would gather to celebrate Christmas dinner:).

Antiyonder

Got a question for the group. If you were a gargoyle, what clan would you want to be apart of?

Me, it is a toss up between the Manhattan Clan and the New Wyvern Clan.

Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

TODD: I've said before but TGC Castaway is pretty much a British Cobra Commander.* No doubt had TGC gotten a second season, he would been trying to destroy the Clan with his Weather Dominator.

*Goofy CC from the 80s G.I. Joe cartoon that is. Not the cool one from the comics or "Renegades".

Algernon

BLAISE - I've sometimes wondered what Castaway was thinking when he tried to kill Elisa alongside Goliath in "The Journey". Remember, she's not only a human, but a police officer (though we don't know if he knew that). If the Quarrymen became associated with the term "cop-killer", it would lead to some real public image problems for them. I can only assume that he'd let his hatred overwhelm him.

But that's a good point, and I think it likely that a lot of those people in the hall weren't thinking of killing the gargoyles when they signed up to be Quarrymen, just protecting themselves from them without considering how far they were willing to go to do so.

Todd Jensen

Oh, God. I'm back making a comment.

Anything important I've missed in the world of Gargoyles?

Warcrafter
Transformers has consumed my life! F*ck Bayformers!

****Blaise appears in a flash of red light.**** Hello, again!

IN HONOR OF THE DAY> It's still Valentine's day where I am, so I figured I might as well put forth these questions to the Room in regards to the various romances in Gargoyles:

What were your favorites?
Did any of them surprise you?
What were some of your favorite romantic moments?


For myself, I guess my favorite, at this moment, is the Goliath/Elisa relationship. I say "at this moment" because I haven't seen any of the Brooklyn/Katana relationship yet (and THAT is the one I am looking forward to the most). "G/E" is the main relationship, and therefore the one that gets the most development. The funny thing is...I originally was kind of against it, largely because I was a hopeless romantic way back in '94-95. Why would that make me against it? Because I was holding out hope Goliath would (somehow) redeem Demona and be with his mate. Yeah, I know, I was stupid (divorce was a touchy subject for me). Actually, I kind of followed Goliath's arc in this. I really started to root for G&E in "The Mirror" and was pretty much all for it by "Eye of the Beholder." And I definitely gave up on Demona by "Vows." By the time of "Avalon" I was saying to myself, "They're gonna kiss before this season is out." I was right!
Xanatos and Fox are a solid second. They're fun because they're a successful and loving "villain" couple. I also like Broadway and Angela (for reasons I'll get into in a bit), and Talon and Maggie look very happy together (and blessed with a child, no less).

As for the biggest surprise...will this is less of a surprising relationship and more of a surprising UN-relationship. Specifically, the Brooklyn and Maggie un-relationship. Again, back in '95 I was something of a hopeless romantic, as well as someone used to animated shows that really didn't show more to "love" between two characters (whether regulars or a regular and a recurring or one-shot) than what was displayed by Brooklyn in "Metamorphosis." Sure, NOW I know that Brooklyn's acting purely on physical infatuation (and maybe some affinity for the "damsel in distress" archetype) and Maggie is definitely not interested, but at the time...well, let's just say I'm glad I didn't write fanfiction. So, when that pairing was emphatically debunked, my teenage self was surprised, but I accepted it.
Another surprise was Xanatos and Fox, mainly in just how genuine their love is. I had wondered if Xanatos meant what he said about "true love" at the end of "Leader of the Pack." It turned out he did (apparently, even liars sometimes tell the truth). Another surprise was Tom and Katharine, both because I thought she would have been with the Magus, and also because...well, I was a bit of an ageist at the time (I've gotten better).
One relationship that was NOT such a surprise to me was Broadway and Angela. I know it surprised my brother--he expected Angela to choose Brooklyn. But I had kind of gotten the vibe that she was going to be with Broadway in "Hunter's Moon." Yeah, that's right. Not "Possession" (I thought that was too obvious...somehow), but when I saw them roosting together near the beginning of part one, and standing side by side at the end of part three (with Broadway telling her about how she'll love it at the castle) I thought, "Okay, they're an item." And really, it made sense. I mean, Brooklyn was my favorite character, but when "The Journey" rolled around, I found I liked the Broadway/Angela pairing, and from what I've seen in the comics they are extremely happy in each other's company, so it's hard for me not to like them (and, yeah, hooray for the hefty guy getting the girl in a show that isn't a sitcom, which I *guess* makes it unexpected).

As for my favorite moment, this one is actually from the comics. It's during "The Rock" when Elisa says "Normalcy is overrated" and she and Goliath share each other's signs of affection (she strokes his hair, he kisses her). It represents a reaffirmation of their love for each other, and their determination to stay together. After all the drama (and the gut wound) of Halloween, they deserved this bit of happiness.
Well, those are my thoughts. What are yours?

TODD> One thing I wanted to add in regards to your Quarrymen comments from earlier:
It's possible Castaway may have learned from his experience with Vinnie that some people have limits. Even if a person can be talked into attacking, they may hesitate to kill. Even if they can be talked into killing a gargoyle, they might balk at killing another human. Castaway may begin to more thoroughly evaluate individuals in order to determine what those limits are.

Until next time! ****Blaise wraps his cloak about himself...and just stands there. After about a minute of embarrassed silence, he sighs and walks out the door.****

Blaise
"Some days you're the pigeon. Some days you're the statue."

Masterdramon> I'm just shocked that Brooklyn didn't place somewhere on there. I mean, given that he stars in at least 50 percent of Gargoyles "romance" genre fanfics. (Quotes there for a reason.)

Speaking as a straight male with a hetero man-crush on Keith David's voice, I also sympathize with Elisa's (heh) outrage at who he shared his position with.

Ross

Kory: Well, we only have to wait 2.5 more weeks for rest of Season 1 to commence airing, so if there was any time to drop interest it wouldn't be now.

Also, has anyone else seen the Nostalgia Chick's "Top 10 Hottest Animated Guys" list on ThatGuyWithTheGlasses? Our own big guy made the countdown at #9...though admittedly, I'm still apalled at who he tied with.

Still, someone really needs to link to this on Goliath's and Elisa's Formsprings. XD

Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"All night, she wants the Young American..." - David Bowie

Everything that's ever been popular in the world of media and sports boils down to a simple truth: Mindless entertainment sells.
Patrick
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

SOME GEEK - Yes, I fear that's the most likely explanation for it. It would certainly fit in with the often-mentioned plothole that Castaway and the Quarrymen know the truth about the gargoyles - despite the problems that that means, it might have appealed to the new production team because it establishes them as bad, with no justification for their actions, no risk of sympathy from the audience. (Maybe that's why they also didn't mention that Castaway was Jon Canmore - they didn't want his motivations to involve suppressed guilt over shooting his brother.)
Todd Jensen

I am loving Young Justice but I found that I am loosing touch with it because of the lack of new episodes.... Does anyone else feel the same way?
Kory - [koryellismulees@hotmail.com]
I was going to take over the world but I got distracted by something shiny

Well, no one ever went bankrupt underestimating the stupidity of the public.
Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

And that's the real point: Michael Bay keeps making movies because people keep paying to see them. They are profitable. He isn't making quality films, he is making money.

If all the Transformers fans (and all the other morons who saw anything beyond the first movie) stopped paying to see these movies, the franchise wouldn't have been raped the way it was. It would've stopped after the first movie.

But the masses have spoken and Michael Bay keeps it up because it is profitable, no matter how bad it gets. Smae with Lucas for that matter.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Oh boy. More fast camera switches and pans, more explosions, less thought, more indistinguishable shapes and metal monsters.

"No form of art goes beyond ordinary consciousness as film does, straight to our emotions, deep into the twilight of the soul."
- Ingrid Bergman

"Just give me a few 8-balls, a ton of gunpowder, a camera, and a computer, and I'll make you a billion dollars."
- Michael Bay

Greg Bishansky - [<--- Greg's Blog of Clue-by-Fours]
when asking girlfriends to shave pubic hair, do not say "Will somebody get this walking carpet out of my way?"

> Todd Jensen (regarding your comment at the start of the week about quarrymen)

Small tangent that is related -- on the DVD for Justice League Unlimited (Season 2) there is a commentary that talks about how, for that show, someone higher up (be it the studio or whatever) wanted the series to shift away from moral grey and sympathetic villains and instead have very clear-cut good guys vs. bad guys because they thought it would require less buy-in from the viewer and therefore be easier to accept - both in terms of audience age range as well as for more casual viewing. (( Contrast to Season 1 of JLU where there were named humans/common man who were enemies, and some moral implications of things said/done and so on ))

When I think about the shift for the quarrymen, it seems rather similar. They are basically nameless and faceless nonsympathetic villains. So be it the new directing staff or the studio, someone in the chain probably made a similar determination as was done on Justice League Unlimited.
Being someone who was in my late teens at the time season 3 came out, I was disappointed by their portrayal as I liked the more in-depth stories and motivations that the villains had under Weisman's reign.. but I don't know if the younger audience (aka what the studio rightfully or wrongfully perceived as the target audience) actually felt... whether it was more accessible to them or not. So it is possible that the new crew were simply not familiar with the source material or plans or audience, it is also possible that part of the motivation behind the change was reasons similar to what JLU got for when they did season 2.

Some Geek
http://www.squidoo.com/thegeeklens-cartoons

I was a huge fan of Transformers as a kid. Then Michael Bay came along and has nearly destroyed that franchise for me. Don't know who is worse, Bay or Lucas. At least Lucas destroyed his own franchise.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

Neill> Did you read the full article? Di Bonaventura referred to it as a 'reboot' without seeming to understand what 'reboot' means. It's got the same continuity as the previous movies, but some new characters since the actors don't want to do it any more. Robot characters will be the same.

Frankly, I would have preferred a proper reboot, directed by someone other than Michael Bay.

Supermorff

So it looks like there will be another Transformers movie... And it's gonna be a reboot, what the hell? http://www.imdb.com/news/ni22731110/ and everybody at Paramount is like: money yeah!
Neill - [neillgargoyle(at)gmail.com]

is guardian still red arrow's great uncle in young justice like in the comics?
Staticblack - [staticblack20@gmail.com]

I wonder what Demona does on Valentine's Day. My guess: throwing darts at pictures of Goliath, Elisa, and Thailog - or (better/worse yet), shooting those pictures with her laser cannon. (The pictures wouldn't last long that way, but we know what Demona's like when her anger gets the better of her judgment.)
Todd Jensen

Todd> People asking if a certain character is joining along with the previous two questions you just mentioned grate every time I read them. I can't wait for the queue to re-open so I can ask more esoteric Gargoyles questions.

I was happy with the answer to the Matt Bluestone questions. I suspected he had been forced to resign since it would be difficult to continue law-enforcement career if he had been terminated explicitly. Also, 1987 sounds right when he joined the FBI. He would have been 22/23 that year, fresh out of college.

Richard Jackson

PHOENICIAN - I'm hoping that when the queue reopens, people stop asking Greg the various spoiler questions (or such already-answered questions as how old Zatanna is and why Robin's in the grade that he's in).
Todd Jensen

Todd: I enjoyed the response too, especially since I hadn't actually noticed that in-joke yet when watching the series. Reminds me also of the side characters that we also saw in The Spectacular Spider-Man -- one couple in particular (since tomorrow IS Valentine's Day) that Spidey ties up together while keeping them out of harms way (sealed with the quip, "You'll thank me later, dude!")

Hudson: Not so much a facial expression, but I still crack up at his reaction to Xanatos's plans in "The Price," particularly when referring to the Cauldron of Life as "an over-sized chamber pot" XD

Harlan: Well, Vinnie wouldn't have been the Greg Weisman-analog that he was when "The Journey" first aired, but otherwise, I imagine Greg probably still planned on him going to Japan.

Speaking of which, congrats GregW on getting under a 100 in the queue! I've seen the queue get fully answered now a handful of times since knocking out that two-year backlog in 2007, but its still remains an impressive feat. ;) Here's hoping the man get's a brief reprieve before Young Justice returns in March . . .

Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka

*reads Greg Weisman's latest "Ask Greg" answers*

Looks like "Young Justice" has its own version of the yuppie couple. :)

Todd Jensen

My favorite priceless Hudson face is in "Awakening" when Goliath picks up Elisa for their tour over the city and the camera goes back to Hudson watching them. Hilarious. I still laugh after 18 years.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Adam> Oh, I love that scene too.^^
Comet
I'm shipping off...to find my wooden leg!

Todd> I'm slightly more interested in whether Vinnie would be the character he is in Clan Building and Bad Guys if Weisman ever got to do season three right then and there.
Harlan Phoenix - [harlanphoenix@live.com]

I was watching "Kingdom" this weekend, and I love the look that Hudson gives after he asked Brooklyn if that is an order and he responds "Yeah, I guess it is".
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

So I was watching the news and they were reporting on "The Duchess Effect". This effect is that whatever Kate Middleton is seen wearing, whether it be certain designer clothes, pantyhose, etc, the profit margins for companies of said examples are doubling according to reports.

So crazy thought...does anyone know Kate Middleton? If not, can any of our UK friends, that post here in the CR, mail her a Gargoyles shirt? Maybe she'll wear it when she's on her yacht. :)

Anthony Tini

10th as in the number of clans in 1997.
Adam - [carl006_1999@yahoo.com]

Ninth. Or, for Algernon, Christopher Eccleston.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Seventh.

We've all (I assume) agreed that one of the big mistakes the "Goliath Chronicles" made was portraying the Quarrymen as all thugs and henchmen after "The Journey", more akin to the kind of guys who'd be working for the Joker or the Green Goblin, rather than frightened people manipulated by their fear of the gargoyles into taking up hammers as in "The Journey". But I recently thought of something that might explain why the new production team made that decision.

A major part of "The Journey" was Vinnie, one of the ordinary citizens so recruited, breaking with Castaway and leaving the Quarrymen after seeing just how far Castaway meant to go in his war on the gargoyles. Maybe the new production team feared that if they kept on the notion of most of the Quarrymen being ordinary men and women, they might have to repeat such incidents several times, and to keep from doing so, they should switch to making the Quarrymen all hardened villains who wouldn't see anything wrong in slaughtering every gargoyle in the world, and their human friends.

Which makes me wonder, how Greg Weisman would have solved that problem if he'd gotten to do the third season instead.

1. We know from an interview with him in 1997 that he intended to make less use of the Quarrymen than "The Goliath Chronicles" did and that he wanted to keep the focus on Castaway, which matches the two Quarrymen scenes in the comic (the Double Date story, and "Bad Guys" #3 where Robyn/Hunter meets with her brother again).

2. Most likely, the ordinary people who joined the Quarrymen wouldn't be in the front lines; Castaway would probably assign them other duties (for a while, at least) that wouldn't require them to fight gargoyles face to face, and reserve the combat missions for mercenaries like Banquo and Fleance who had fighting experience. (Vinnie was brought along on that mission because Castaway had heard him say on television that he'd hunted down a gargoyle and got his revenge - and didn't know that the revenge involved banana cream pie.)

3. We don't know how many face-to-face encounters the Quarrymen would have with the clan. Castaway would obviously want to keep such battles low-key; he doesn't want the Quarrymen to be perceived as an out-of-control vigilante group, but more of a "neighborhood watch" organization. Which means that we definitely wouldn't see the kind of confrontations that we saw in "The Goliath Chronicles".

We can be certain that Castaway will do all he can to make the main appeal of the Quarrymen towards regular people with families; his recruitment speeches show that. In the past, I've dwelt on the ironies of his speech in "The Journey" (everything from the audience fears he mentions being reflections of fears that gargoyles might have towards humans to his constant use of the word "alone"), but it's also clearly designed to appeal to ordinary people rather than professional villainous henchmen. And he's using the same course in his television ad in "Bad Guys" (which takes place around two months after the events in "The Journey" - we know that, because the New York scenes were around New Year's Eve); he makes the Quarrymen sound more like Covenant House than like the Ku Klux Klan - which is the point.

(All of these musings make me hope even more that Greg Weisman will get to tell more "Gargoyles" stories someday, with more of "the Quarrymen done right".)

Todd Jensen

Sylvester McCoy!
Algernon

Sixth
Supermorff

I plead the Fifth.
Chip
"The next time you set up shop in the biggest state, don't pick the area that's only ten miles wide. Welcome to Canada, idiot"--Frank Zhang

(4)FOUR!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29@hotmail.com]
God Bless you All!

Third.
Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"... And if we did it before, we can do it again." "And we will. Together." - Goliath and Elisa, "The Edge"

Second Home by the Sea!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009@mymail.pomona.edu]
"All night, she wants the Young American..." - David Bowie

FIRST!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it lasts," -- Willy Wonka