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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending August 11, 2013

Index : Show Images

Greg B. Thanks for the link. Interesting read.
Adam - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

MrsBlackPinkie> Yep, that little beauty's been in my YouTube favorites folder for years now. :)
Algernon

Hello! Has anyone heard this? It really does make me almost want to cry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79bW5_e98vQ

MrsBlackPinkie
Gargoyles for ever!

So, when "Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two" was announced, I spread the word on a few forums. One of them was superherohype. One of the more well known posters on there, a fellow named Dread (who is also a critic for the Examiner), has in the past written reviews for "Spectacular Spider-Man" as each episode aired and for "Young Justice" as each episode aired. He never saw much of "Gargoyles" but since he enjoyed Greg's work, he ordered all three DVD sets, and he's reviewing them... episode by episode from the looks of things.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=26602865#post26602865

Thought I'd share the link. That's three new perspectives on the show as of late.

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Is Gargoyles Season Two, Volume Two going to be released on DVD at retail stores? Is Gargoyles: The Complete Series Collection getting released on DVD?
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]
Jonny Modlin

Thanks so much!!
Jibbers - [boobtoobnoob at yahoo dot com]
"What sorcery is this?!" "It's called Sriracha. Addicting, I know!"

@Jibbers - this review will answer your question(s): http://marvel.toonzone.net/specialfeatures/gargoyles/dvd/s2v2/index.php
Anthony Tini

A bit late to this, but I saw that Season Two, Vol 2 has been released. Did whatever company that put it out do a good job with the transfer, or is it a shoddy job?
Jibbers - [boobtoobnoob at yahoo dot com]
"What sorcery is this?!" "It's called Sriracha. Addicting, I know!"

Rebel and Paul> Just depends on how your TV's color, tint and gamma are adjusted... for me, Lex is ochre, Broadway is light aqua... and that's pretty much the colors they come out as when printed, so I guess that's a good baseline...
B!
Come fry with me, come fry, let's fry an egg...

Anthony Tini> I do see what you're saying w/r/t less recap and more commentary. It's possible as I go along I'll ease up on the straight recapping - I may well get tired of going into that much detail every time. Thanks for reading!
Melissa

So just yesterday I got to meet comic book icon Stan Lee who came to the city's local comic book store to celebrate its 25th anniversary. Between meeting Stan, Greg and plenty of other writers and actors at WonderCon, 2013 is turning out to be a great year for meeting childhood icons.
Matthew
"Shall we their fond pageant see? Lord, what fools these mortals be!"-Puck

need some help identifying a gargoyle figurine i got in a lot off ebay, its a very small hudson figurine id say about half an inch tall & is made out of porcelain (i think). Also looks hand painted. Its not a custom job cause it has the correct copy rights on it. I can provide a picture just send me an email & ill send one.
Wolf - [megatronwolf at msn dot com]
What would Snake Plissken do?

Lexington looks green to me. Not a vibrant green, but green nonetheless. Broadway looks sort of aqua.
Rebel - [rebelfornea at gmail dot com]

I was watching "Vendettas" on DVD today, and in the "establishing shot" leading to Mr. Acme's store (where Vinnie's picking up Mr. Carter), there's a shop (apparently an art shop) with the name "Rogues Gallery". This is the first time I'd noticed that detail. (A big advantage of the improved picture of the DVD over the old videotaped episodes.)
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

I always thought that Lexington looked more yellow than green, and Broadway looked more green than blue.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

@Melissa, to be honest, the best part of those reviews were when I could hear your voice and your thoughts on the episodes. Things like "I'm guessing Hakon's wishing he'd sent Erik the Yellow to scale this part of the castle." was quite humorous AND your thoughts on Xanatos as a person in your "Awakening Part Two, cont." blog were very well written and insightful.

Personally, I don't need to read detailed recaps as I can just re-watch them, but I will admit that when I re-watched LOST and blogged about it (http://3tlostfound.blogspot.com/) I felt I was doing more recapping than I was sharing my thoughts. When that happened, sadly, it sometimes felt more like a job than something I initially thought would be fun.

So with that said, good work thus far, but personally I'd much rather read something coming from you with a little less recap, but definitely use the events of the episode to prove a point or support your thoughts as you relive something that we all enjoy - Gargoyles!

Anthony Tini

Greg> Ah. That makes sense. Thank you.

Harlan> Oh, I forgot, re: Katharine. You're absolutely right, but I was so annoyed with her up to that point, I wasn't inclined to cut her any slack.

Melissa

MELISSA> In defense of the Demona reveal in Awakening Part Three, Greg has said in the audio commentary that the bit was supposed to be darker, a much vaguer outline... he didn't want the audience to know who it was. But the animation didn't come back the way they wanted... something that will happen again in other episodes, wait til you get to "Enter Macbeth" ;)
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Harlan Phoenix,

So glad you liked the recaps overall! I enjoyed doing them very much. To address some of your points;

- I had heard of the phrase "Xanatos Gambit" in a vague way before, though looking it up just now, I see it doesn't mean quite what I thought it did. And it doesn't even apply in "Awakening" - he didn't come out the winner as far as I can tell. He is a wholly delightful to watch, however.

- Disney heroines. I admit I haven't seen those three particular movies since even before I last watched "Gargoyles," so a lot of my judgment comes in hindsight and might be a little unfair (though even as a little girl I thought Ariel was an idiot). I liked all those movies, but more for the singing mice and crabs and scary villains (MALEFICENT!) than the heroines, who never seemed to do much other than be beautiful and suffer before getting their happy endings.

- Re: OUAT. That show has some deep flaws, for sure, but I enjoy it. It improved quite a bit from the pilot, for me. It's twisty and rather silly and quite dark in places, and I find it a lot of fun. Plus, Regina's Evil Queen wardrobe is INCREDIBLE.

- Demona's reveal. I think we'll have to agree to disagree, though you have a point that glowing red eyes wouldn't have been any better. Yes, older, genre-savvy viewers would be able to guess who it was even if Xanatos just addressed a dark doorway (there aren't a whole lot of candidates, after all) but I maintain that actually showing her silhouette so clearly undercuts the later scene where she's finally revealed. Especially since that scene plays (to me, at any rate) as if the show expects the audience to be as shocked as Goliath. It felt just a little cheap. (And yes, the act breaks on her creepy smile).

Melissa

I should have mentioned this a couple of months ago, when I first read it, but....

Earlier this year, I read the just-published latest book in a series of reprints of Carl Barks' Donald Duck stories, "The Secret of the Old Castle". In the title story, Donald, his nephews, and Scrooge McDuck go to the old Castle McDuck in Scotland to search for hidden treasure. Scrooge mentions that the McDuck who hid the treasure somewhere in the castle disappeared "during the siege of 1057". I wondered whether Barks deliberately chose that date because of its being the year Macbeth was overthrown - meaning a year when there really was a war in Scotland. From what I know of him, he probably did. (Dan Rosa in his "The Life of Scrooge McDuck" certainly saw the connection, and linked the concealment of the treasure to Macbeth's overthrow.)

The story was originally published in 1948; Disney thus made use of that date in Scottish history forty-seven years before "City of Stone" aired. (Rosa's own story making use of it was published in April 1994, a few months before "Gargoyles" premiered, and a year and a half before "City of Stone"'s first airing.)

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

YOU'RE AN IDIOT.

(Or not.)

I enjoyed that a decent amount. I have some quibbles, which we'll get to, but on the whole it was a pretty entertaining recap through Awakening. Awakening is easily one of the best premieres an animated series has ever had; it's a sweeping epic in of itself without ever losing sight of the personal drama with its characters. It's willing to take its time, even in ways I think most shows wouldn't even WITH the time given in a five hour premiere. Everything about it is incredibly unique, even today.

POSITIVE:

-Xanatos is usually a good topic of conversation, particularly given his characterization in Awakening. But before anything else: I want to thank you because I'm pretty sure I didn't see the phrase "Xanatos Gambit" uttered once during that review. I don't know if you're familiar with it or not, but that's a meme/phrase I have utterly loathed for the longest time. It's become beyond bothersome to see so many people to ENTIRELY associate Xanatos via his "epic planzzz!!", when that's probably the least interesting thing about him. So before anything else, I just want to express the fact he was discussed and dissected entirely based on his screen presence and not the fact he's, at this point, really a giant ass meme. It seems like such a little, almost condescending, thing to praise you for, but really. Thank you.

I also like that, among your comments, you're willing to embrace how inherently SILLY a lot of Gargoyles is. I disagree with you about Goliath's lament-filled delivery of losing his revenge, but I love when you point out the massive absurdity of the Eyrie Building or that glorious spotlight over Xanatos. Part of why I still love Gargoyles is that it doesn't see any real contradiction in having Shakespearean drama coexist with cartoonish absurdity. Emotional reality in distinctly unreal settings is one of my favorite storytelling structures, and though Gargoyles is a fairly grounded show when it's all said and done, it still has just enough of a heightened reality that it really only COULD exist in its highest potential as an animated series. And a lot of that wouldn't be true without Xanatos, whose emotional grounding yet almost child-like sense of fun and inventiveness makes him a character who goes beyond the sum of his archetypal and memetic parts.

-I agree that Elisa's pretty boss. A friend of mine, quite a while ago, watched Awakening on pure impulse (having little familiarity with Gargoyles beyond the fact I loved it) and had a lot of praise for Elisa in particular for being "a character I'd otherwise hate", because she risks being the archetypal human companion of the inhuman cast. But he loved that she rose above that and was a great character in her own. Elisa is boss hog and has some of the best focus episodes and personal arcs in the entire series, all out of virtue of who she is as a character.

-I like the playfulness of the blog's prose in general. Nice and breezy. Fun to read, generally.

NEGATIVE/COUNTERPOINT:

-I can't really agree with the cliff scene's set up being contrived. I think adrenaline and panic, especially for the sort of person raised like Katharine was, is a perfectly valid excuse. It just reminded me of watching horror movies with friends who always thought the teens in the movies were "stupid", even though literally every single person who has ever criticized a horror movie for its supposed stupidity would probably do the same things their criticized protagonists do. And I felt the same way here. Katharine not realizing she's heading toward a cliff is perfectly in character, perfectly fit with context, and is even in the Shakespearean tradition of super-bad decisions done on impulse. So.

-Honestly, I never got the complaints about Disney heroines. Maybe I'm biased because Cinderella's one of my favorite characters and a source of fascination for me for many years, but I always thought a lot of the complaints about Disney heroines always gleefully skirt around context, whether societal context in terms of when the productions were made or, for more modern installments, context in the actual stories. So whenever I hear things relating to, say, Ariel giving up her voice, I'll cop to the fact I presented you with disrespect because I immediately rolled my eyes. I apologize for that disrespect, because you have a valid perspective and opinion. But I'll admit to never particularly understanding the viewpoint, even though several people have tried to convince me otherwise (though whether that was a problem with them or me may be up for debate). I still love all the Disney heroines. Elisa AND Cinderella/Ariel/Whoever Else included.

-I actually think you missed a beat on Demona's reveal. I don't think there's ANY context where it would've been a surprise in the structure presented. If there were red glowing eyes, you'd still know it was Demona anyway and her evil intent would be clearer. I prefer the blacked out silhouette because it's not as inherently "This bitch is evil, yo." as red eyes on a dark background. It makes her presence known, but her purpose ambiguous. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Demona's reveal actually ends that act on her insidious smile. Demona's INTENT is the more structurally important thing, setting the status quo through which we perceive the rest of the events. Demona's PRESENCE seems like the less significant thing, reintroducing her as present so the mystery immediately becomes WHY (which is then hinted when she breaks an act). Introducing BOTH Demona's return and her intent in that same shot would break what was, again, a pilot willing to takes its time with its various elements.

MISC:

-So...is Once Upon a Time even good? I remember watching the pilot and thinking it awful. It seemed like it was dedicated to insulting my intelligence in every possible way. Because, y'know, you can't have fairy tale characters without them being obnoxiously self aware of their own fictional nature (also, Storybrooke? [SPOILER] Fucking [/SPOILER] really?). The pilot ending on the notion that the protagonist has to "restore the happy endings" made me vomit hard and I LIKE Disneyfied fairy tales. It felt like such a condescending piece of garbage that was terrified of being genuinely whimsical and instead relied on FALSE whimsy. I had no desire to even try beyond a pilot that unwatchable. I'm also wary of Jane Espenson, because even though she's not the leading force behind the show, she's major enough to make me hesitant. I haven't really liked anything of hers since Caprica, a show that, to her credit, I absolutely adore. But so much about Once Upon a Time seemed less embracing of the thing I liked about the Disneyfied fairy tale and more condescending about it while pretending to be warm and fuzzy.

----

Overall, I liked the recap. I couldn't necessarily see myself reading it more because, to be frank, I've seen the series so many times over the years that even the show under fresh eyes is a simulated thrill rather than an actual one that, quite frankly, could NEVER match up to the source material no matter who was doing the recapping. But, as far as this sort of recap DOES go, I'd heartily recommend it for anyone looking to become reacquainted with the series. It's fun, breezy, and very upfront about what it has to say. It's very strongly a specific person's perspective, and that's fun. I get the impression you'd be someone I'd really enjoy discussing Gargoyles with.

I like it.

Harlan Phoenix
The enemy is clever. We're smaller but whatever. When we put it together, I'll form the head.

Let me apologize upfront - I hate to be the person who constantly comes in and pimps their own site and so I won't bring it up again, but I've finished recapping all five parts of "Awakening" and I'd love to get the opinions of other Gargoyles fans, (even if it's just to say "you're an idiot!"). So anyone willing to take the time, come on over and read & comment!

http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/

Melissa

James Harvey of Marvel Animation Age posted this review of "Gargoyles Season Two Volume Two"

http://marvel.toonzone.net/specialfeatures/gargoyles/dvd/s2v2/index.php

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

I have a question if sum one can answer please email me y isn't season 3 episode 9 anywhere to b found its not on you tube nothing and I just made it to that point and so far I watched them all can sumone inform me if u kno y I cant find that episode.
stacy williams - [burdenstacy at yahoo dot com]

Anon> Man, that is really lousy. I hope he's stuck with them while everyone else gets their copy from the Disney eBay store. I saw one recently being auctioned at $21.95 but that quickly shot up to $40. I wonder what Disney thinks about all this scalping they're inadvertently causing by withholding S2v2 from people...
B! - [prplbeedoo at yahoo dot com]

Someone is selling S2V2 in Amazon.com at $79,97.
That pretty hefty price i's say.

Anonymous

Johnathan Frakes: "Yeah, it's interesting, because a lot of Star Trek people came through there. The show was really too smart for television. It made a lot of Shakespearean references. I wish that show was still going. Gargoyles has a real strong cult following."

NAILED IT.

Battle Beast - [Canada]
I did it! I watched all 485 Best picture nominees in 365 days!

So the Disney Movie Club took Gargoyles off my order and charged me for the other blu-rays I bought. Oh well, I tried.

People would got more then 3 copies of Gargoyles through DMC are lucky.

Audra - [birdygirl85 at hotmail dot com]

At least we're getting a novel from Greg in four months, though not a "Gargoyles" one.
Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

D>http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=4375

Responses are generally "Would love to, need a publisher, rights etc."

Harlan Phoenix

Anyone ever asked Greg if he'd consider doing a Gargoyles novel? Sounds like that should be much simpler than putting together an entire TV show or comic book.
D

Algernon> Except Mister Mosquito (Mr. Moskeeto to you).
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

BRAINIAC> Not sucking is always a good feature in any game.
Algernon

A little more clarity on the Legacy delays:

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/08/05/young-justice-legacy-action-rpg-delayed-on-certain-platforms/

https://www.facebook.com/youngjusticelegacy/posts/487831211302740

Basically, since they want a simultaneous release across all platforms, the game is getting delayed for the time needed to program for the unique control schema of Nintendo's systems. At least, that's how it sounds - it could just be a general delay for polish/extra testing/trying to make it not suck/etc.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

MATT - Yes, I've sometimes wondered about that, and about the response of the other clans, for that matter.

The London gargoyles, living in or near a major city, would quickly find out. The news would also no doubt soon reach Japan and Ishimura. (I wonder whether, when the news reached the Ishimura clan, some of its members might wonder if Yama had a point about determining how and when the world should learn about gargoyles, even if he went about it the wrong way; better to reveal it yourselves than have one of your enemies do so in a way that makes you seem like a threat to the human race.) Word would probably take much longer to reach the Mayan gargoyles, living in a remote pyramid in the Guatemalan jungle (and maybe only Zafiro and Obsidiana at that, depending on how long it took Jade and Turquesa to return from Avalon).

As for the Avalon gargoyles themselves, we don't know how long it would take them to find out. Titania indicated at the end of "The Gathering Part Two" that she'd be keeping an eye on Fox and Alex; if she is indeed monitoring them, she'd soon find out about the Manhattan clan's existence revealed, though whether she'd tell the Avalon clan about it right away or not, we don't know. They'd obviously be concerned for the Manhattan clan's sake (though at least they'd be safe on Avalon from any anti-gargoyle hysteria that Castaway or others like him would raise).

The Clones, living in Manhattan, would also find out soon.

We don't know enough about the other four clans to know how soon they'd find out. The Loch Ness clan also seems unlikely to have regular access to the human news media, and so might not know for a while. The New Olympian clan - that depends on how much the New Olympians monitor the human world. (Talos mentioned that human technology is catching up with New Olympian so much that New Olympus' cloaking device wouldn't be able to conceal it much longer, which implies some awareness of conditions outside.) The Xanadu and Korean clans are still a mystery; we have no idea what their information-gathering systems are like.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

Todd> Good thoughts! Thanks for sharing.

Your mention of the London Clan makes me wonder what is going on with them and their revelation to humanity. I'm sure Lex and Hudson talked about being revealed to humanity during their stay and I'd have loved to hear the London Clan's thoughts on what it means for both clans, and the species as a whole.

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

Anonymous> Well, I'm no professional and not exactly "new," but I am blogging about Gargoyles ep-by-ep, having not watched since I was a kid. As for that review, I agree with Greg Bishansky, it doesn't reflect my understanding of Xanatos. But I'm only up to "Awakening, Part Three" on my rewatch, who knows what I'll think when I get further along.

http://ramblingsofpicturebox.blogspot.com/

Melissa

Anonymous>"Personally, I'd still like to see a professional do a proper dissection of Gargoyles, but that remains to be seen."

Define professional.

Harlan Phoenix

Noticed a new detail when I was watching "The Gathering Part One" on DVD last evening. When Hudson and Broadway are watching the news report about Alexander's birth, Broadway's eating out of a box of chocolates - the same box he'll later present to Angela (with most of the chocolates already devoured).

I know most of us (myself included) aren't too keen on "The Goliath Chronicles", but I recently felt some sympathy for its production team over "Angels in the Night". Now, we've agreed in the past that it was too much of a contrived happy ending, that it was unrealistic for the public to change its mind about gargoyles after just one train rescue. But when I thought over the overall direction that the new production team took with the series, I came to the conclusion that they'd written themselves into a situation where the only other possible endings for the season they could have provided would have been just as bad, if not worse.

The new team had made almost the entire season revolve around the gargoyles being hated and feared by humans and their hoping to live in peace with the human race. (Only a few episodes in "The Goliath Chronicles", such as "Genesis Undone" and "Seeing Isn't Believing", didn't make that emphasis - helped there by the fact that Thailog, Sevarius, and Proteus were all indifferent to the anti-gargoyle prejudice problem.) With such a focus, naturally the final episode of the season would have to resolve that problem in some way (especially since they knew from early on that there wasn't going to be another season - all the more so given that "The Goliath Chronicles" seems to have been designed as a desperate insert for ABC's Saturday morning time slot). In such a case, the most likely options were:

1. Have the gargoyles get killed by the Quarrymen (which would obviously never make it past Standards & Practices) - or have Demona wipe out the human race (which also would obviously never make it past S&P). Naturally, neither ending would have been considered.

2. Have the gargoyles give up and run away from New York (which we know from Greg Weisman was considered - but which he talked them out of) - an extremely downbeat ending (I suspect that at least one executive would have expressed concerns over the message that it sent, even apart from Greg's protest), and which certainly would have been out of character for Goliath (if he was that stubborn about leaving his protectorate when it was just an old castle that only the gargoyles and their archenemy lived in, think what he'd be like over abandoning a protectorate that was an entire island-community with lots of inhabitants).

3. Have the humans learn the truth about the gargoyles and accept them, with just thirteen episodes to do it in (and worse, the progress made in each episode would be forgotten by the beginning of the next one); highly unrealistic, but with the other options just as bad, if not worse. (It certainly didn't help that the writers exaggerated the "darkest hour before the dawn" quality of "Angels in the Night" to the point where that change of heart at the end was even more improbable - if the bulk of the population of New York is ready to swallow Castaway's lies whole even after his being an open threat to the city's well-being, I doubt that anything could change their minds about the gargoyles.)

Clearly, the new team must have misinterpreted "The Journey" as stating that the whole third season would center around the public's hatred of the gargoyles. In so doing, they must have not read it so closely or examined whatever Greg told them about the Quarrymen and Castaway; Greg's own ideas about them indicates that there was a lot more at work than simple racial hatred. (Such as Jon Canmore/Castaway's real reason for hating the gargoyles being to avoid confronting his responsibility for shooting Jason and paralyzing him below the waist, and the Illuminati's cold-blooded interest in using the Quarrymen movement for its larger plans in steering the world in the direction they think it should go in. Don't forget, also, that the bulk of the Quarrymen, from "The Journey", were clearly intended to be ordinary citizens, driven by their fears of the just-revealed and terrifying gargoyles into joining the movement, seeing it as the only way to protect themselves. Look at Castaway's recruitment speech again, playing on such fears as that the gargoyles might kidnap their children; that's not the kind of speech you'd deliver to a crowd of mercenaries and thugs-for-hire.)

For that matter, now that we have "Clan-Building", we can see that Greg Weisman didn't intend the anti-gargoyle response to be the be-all of the third season. It plays a large role in "The Journey", yes, as the consequences of "Hunter's Moon", but even there, we see other elements (the uncertainty over whether they can live under the same roof as Xanatos and Fox, Angela and Broadway established as a couple - and Brooklyn not too happy with that discovery, Lexington bonding with Alex, Duval's phone call to Xanatos - and we now know that it didn't have anything to do with the gargoyles being revealed and moving in with Mr. X). And in the three episode-length stories that followed it in "Clan-Building", other threads came to the fore. The Double Date story still did a bit with the public fear and the Quarrymen (though largely in the form of such things as Castaway ordering the Quarrymen on Halloween patrol not to go armed, so as to guard against the embarrassment of one of them mistaking a costumed trick-or-treater for a gargoyle and attacking), but its main threads were Goliath and Elisa dealing with the problems in their relationship (which they'd have had to face even if the gargoyles hadn't become public knowledge) and Thailog wanting the Clones back. The Stone of Destiny story was about a struggle over an ancient object of historical and mythical significance (the London gargoyles don't even bring up the New York clan having been made public). The Timedancer adventure did touch on humans fearing and killing gargoyles - but in 10th century Scotland (and with, again, the feeling that there was more involved than mere racial prejudice; Constantine doesn't like gargoyles much anyway, but his bigger motive for hunting them down and killing them was to deny them as allies to his rivals for the Scottish throne). And "Clan-Building" ends on a hopeful note, but nothing to do with any progress that the gargoyles have made towards peace with humanity (indeed, the only step taken in that direction since "The Journey" was a small one, Dr. Sato becoming another friend to the clan); the upbeat tone is about the clan having several new members (including its first egg since the Wyvern Massacre) and what that means for its future.

So, while "Angels in the Night", including its ending, has some serious flaws, those were almost forced upon it by the new production team's assumptions about the series - assumptions that doomed "Angels in the Night" to an oversimplified ending. It was the new team's misunderstanding, its belief that the public's fear and hatred of the gargoyles was the core of the series, that inflicted the great damage - damage that might have been averted if they had understood "The Journey" better.

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

In regards of that review Greg B. posted: I think any new takes on reviewing our favorite show should be welcomed, as differing opinions add refreshing new perspectives to the fandom. Sure, it's by no means perfect, but give it some time. Personally, I'd still like to see a professional do a proper dissection of Gargoyles, but that remains to be seen.

As for my version of comicdom's Rushmore? Any foursome combo of the following:
Ambush Bug, Madman, The Tick, The Flaming Carrot, Forbush Man, Brother Voodoo (Fred Hembeck's version!), Brother Power The Geek, Obnoxio The Clown, The Red Bee, and of course the "Fat Fury" himself, Herbie Popnecker! (Although that last one could stand to have a monument all his own, inscribed with his immortal phrase, "You want I should bop you with this here lollipop?")
As you can plainly see, my tastes range from the obscure and off-beat!

Anonymous

What's not to like about this-a Disney Silk Screen on the way!
Wingless

Hmm... A comic book Mt.Rushmore. Well I think Superman for the Golden Age, Spider-Man for Silver, Batman for Bronze and Rorschach from Watchmen for the Dark Ages. I'd have to think of what I'd do for a villainous version.
Matthew
"Shall we their fond pageant see? Lord, what fools these mortals be!"-Puck

And another review. I don't think this person understands Xanatos:

http://www.totalmediabridge.com/childhood-revisited-gargoyles-the-edgelong-way-to-morning/

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

if we can only choose from franchises that started as comics id go with Spawn, Jackie Estacado in the darkness armor, Deadpool & the 4th slot is a tie between Batman & Venom. Now if we can choose from any character that has been in a comic id go with Demona, Snake Plissken, G1 Megatron & Edward T. Head. If you know who that last one is you are my new best friend.

Oh and to follow up on my previous post, when i said a video game that doesnt suck i ment just that. Anyone whos a gamer knows that most video games based off of movies, shows or comics suck. So i didnt want gamers here to see that option and dismiss it right off so i added "doesnt suck" to it. I wasnt implying that it was the only option that would turn out good. If i did mean that i would've included it somewhere. But id personally would like to see a Gargoyles video game even if it did suck just so we could get some kick ass CG models of all the characters. And if you think of it no matter what disney does with the franchise its going to technically be a reboot cause its been dead for almost 2 decades. Reboot no longer just means to start over it also means to revive or majorly change.

Wolf - [megatronwolf at msn dot com]
What would Snake Plissken do?

Dr. Doom, Magneto, Green Goblin, Loki....

... did I misunderstand the question?

Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

Iron Man, Spiderman, and Deadpool.
KingCobra582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]

While I think it's kind of a silly question...

Wonder Woman.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Living in the limelight, the universal dream..." - Rush

Ok, nwe topic for the forum. Who would you put on your "Mount Rushmore" of comic book super heroes?

I always put Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman in my top three. Normally I would put Wolverine in the fourth spot, but given his popularity right now, I might go with Iron Man.

Who would you guys pick?

Adam Carlson - [carl006_1999 at yahoo dot com]

One is one and all alone, and ever more shall be so.

Has Greg Weisman ever taken part in a countdown here before?

Todd Jensen
Hufflepuffs are great finders

2 Gargoyles beasts in the Manhattan clan!
KingCobra582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]

Three Weird Sisters!
Greg Weisman

Four!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Living in the limelight, the universal dream..." - Rush

Five!
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
If you are on the wrong road, progress means.. walking back to the right road; ..the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man~~C.S. Lewis

Six!

Now THIS is a countdown!

Matt - [Saint Louis, Missouri, USA]
"For science, which, as my associate Fang indicated, must move ever forward. Plus there's the money... and I do love the drama!" - Sevarius, "Louse"

All Lucky Sevens!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Er... DOCTOR OCTOPUS!
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

NINE!
Greg Bishansky
Here's the problem with most fanfic writers: they seem to think Dominique is a second life. It isn't. Demona spelled it plainly in "High Noon." She's a gargoyle. Dominique is just a tool to help her in her goals. She'll use the form because she changes into a human, whether she likes it or not, but Dominique is not another life for her.

NINE!
Phoenician
"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I'm feeling a bit contrary at the moment.

TEN!

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]