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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 27, 2019

Index : Show Images

Last but not least!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!

Happy 25th Anniversary to Gargoyles! The show has been a great inspiration to me creatively over the years, and I can't wait to watch it again sometime soon.

What do you guys think the odds are that we'll see Tim Curry reprise his role as G Gordon Godfrey in Season 4 of Young Justice? He's been looking A LOT better lately.


TODD> Yeah that was a typo on my part. It was definitely "Artus"
Time to make... my move.

ALGAE - Thanks. (Was that "Atrus" or "Artus"? You used the former spelling, but the latter spelling fits better the theories I've read about a "proto-Arthur".)
Todd Jensen

TODD> Well DC Peredur was created by Grant Morrison so you know he's gonna be rather... unconventional. For one thing, he's not actually from the Camelot you might think. DC Camelot being a recurring archetype that rises and falls throughout history. Blood and Nimue being from the 6th century Camelot ruled by King Arthur most of us are familiar with. While Peredur and Ystin are from a proto-Celtic incarnation of Camelot ruled by an "Atrus the Bear King" that was roughly contemporary with pre-sinking Atlantis.

Comics are weird.

PS. Just plain "Algae" is fine ;)

Time to make... my move.

Welcome back, Mochi!

ALGERNON - Thanks. (I checked the link you mentioned and noticed a "Peredur" among King Arthur's knights in the DC Comics take - though he's probably different from the Peredur of the Gargoyles Universe.)

Earlier this week, I read the recently-published "Hilda and the Mountain King", which is apparently the final book in the "Hilda" graphic novels series that inspired the Netflix series. The ending struck me as [SPOILER] a good way - certainly, much more realistic than how "Angels in the Night" tried such a thing, but with a strong tone of hope - of depicting the start of peace between humans and "mythical beings" that turn to stone in the daytime [/SPOILER], and I recommend this book (and the "Hilda" graphic novels in general) to everyone here.

Todd Jensen

TODD> Hey, man. Thanks for the review of _Enlightenment_. Much appreciated. To answer your questions.

[SPOILER] 1. Yeah, Blackbriar Thorn's speech is liberally cribbed and remixed from both Lovecraft and Jack Kirby's New Gods

2. Vandar's merry band are all pre-existing DC characters. The group itself is loosely based on the Demon Knights, a team of Medieval adventurers who starred in a brief but enjoyable comic series that ran from 2011 to 2013.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Demon_Knights [/SPOILER]

Time to make... my move.

I know it's 2 days late by now, but I'd still like to say

HAPPY 25th Anniversary To Gargoyles!

EmilyDfan - [esidorowicz at yahoo dot com]

It's been a while since I last visited here. I'm a little late, but I really can't believe it's been 25 years since Gargoyles made its debut. I will make it a point to find my DVDs and watch a few episodes in the coming days. Here's hoping the fandom sticks around for another 25 years!
The One Known As Mochi - [rolandsteinert at hotmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>^^)> 25 years~!!

I've decided to switch the color of my postings to something lighter; I kept finding myself highlighting my posts with my mouse in order to reread them, and suspected I might not be the only one having such troubles.

I rewatched "The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Temptation" today. A few thoughts (mostly new) about them.

1. This time around, I've noticed a lot more how most of the humans - both medieval and modern - use the word "beasts" to describe the gargoyles. They're not just frightened of or hostile towards the gargoyles - they regard them as monstrous animals. Humans also often use the term "hunt" in their pursuit of the gargs and attempts to capture or kill them, which not only reinforces that tone, but feels like a foreshadowing of some of the gargoyles' biggest adversaries.

2. Lexington, upset about being betrayed by the Pack, describes them as "no more than animals" - an apt remark, given that the Pack have all named themselves after animals.

3. I was amused by Dingo's remark upon first seeing the photographs of Goliath, "Stone me!" Feels like an appropriate exclamation upon first seeing a gargoyle.

4. Brooklyn and Broadway glide up to the castle near the end, talking about the Pack's arrest (technically, Fox and Wolf's arrest) being on the news. From the direction they came from, they couldn't have been watching television with Hudson, who comes up from the den. Had they caught the news report from televisions in a shop window?

5. In "Temptation", Brooklyn calls the bikers "kindred spirits", the same term Goliath and Lexington had used in discussing people to seek out and make friends with in the previous episode.

6. When Broadway tells Goliath about Brooklyn's "joyride", his hands move as if they're gripping a motorcycle's handlebars.

I enjoyed seeing both again. "The Thrill of the Hunt", like most of the Pack episodes, does feel like mostly a big fight, but has some humor with the Pack (I particularly like their public appearance with the over-the-top announcer crying "Oh, no! It's the Evil Ninjas!" and Fox and Hyena's response to Billy and Susan turning up just as they're about to finish off the gargs), and Lexington's hurt feelings at being betrayed by them. "Temptation", of course, gives us more revelations about Demona and her hatred of humanity (including a definite statement that she hadn't been under the stone sleep spell) - complete with her showing Brooklyn domestic violence and the aftermath of a murder scene.

Brooklyn, in dramatic contrast with Demona (who'll be his archenemy after this - from his perspective), does accept responsibility for his error in temporarily siding with her and getting Goliath briefly under her spell. (I'll admit, we don't learn until later - "City of Stone Part One", to be precise - how big a role Demona's denying her responsibility for her acts has played in her life.

The visit to the Cloisters is one of my favorite moments in "Temptation", particularly Brooklyn and Goliath's enthusiasm for the place before Demona shows up. I knew about the Cloisters even before I watched "Gargoyles"; I first learned about it through a book I read as a boy about making medieval costumes, called "Kings, Queens, Knights, and Jesters", which was illustrated with photographs taken from a sort of annual medieval costume festival at the Cloisters. (One of the episodes of "The Real Ghostbusters" was set at the Cloisters, with the Ghostbusters there battling a villainous Arthurian knight named Sir Breuse sans Pitie - an actual Arthurian figure from Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur", by the way - who'd escaped from a tapestry he'd been imprisoned in by Merlin and is bent on turning the Cloisters into his new castle.)

I don't think that the Cloisters would have worked as well as a new home for the gargoyles as the clock tower did, either from an "in-universe" perspective or a storytelling perspective, but I can't help suspecting that, if the clan *had* moved there, Vinnie would have probably gotten a night watchman job at the Cloisters around the same time.

And I recently found it tempting to imagine the folks at Kenner having the same response to the motorcycle's destruction as Lexington at the end of the episode - minus the turning to stone, of course.

I've also started keeping count of how often we see architectural gargoyles and grotesques in the series. So far, I've spotted three groups: the gargoyles whom we see at the very beginning of "Awakening" before the camera moves away from them towards the Eyrie Building, the ones the trio are standing next to when they spot Vinnie's motorcycle, and the ones on the roof where the Pack have a fight with Goliath and Lexington. (Dingo even shoots one stone gargoyle's head off, before discovering it was just a statue. The first architectural gargoyle to get damaged in the series.)

Todd Jensen

TODD> Awakenings remains one of the best animated pilots I've ever seen, probably 'cuz if functions equally well as an intro to the series and an epic in its own right.

On another note, had a little something saved on my hard drive that I thought would be appropriate to post in honor of the occasion...


Some people have a bad day. I‘ve had a bad life. If I want something, it’s taken from me. If I win a fight, I lose the war. Threats only work on someone who has something to lose. But me? I already lost it all.

Here's the remainder of my thoughts on "Awakening" after I rewatched it yesterday for the 25th anniversary.

I still really like the gargoyles' first awakening in New York - it's a suitably impressive occasion, especially when their elation at being awake again changes to shock at their new surroundings (and New York really does feel strange and alien when you see it from their eyes). This time around, I noticed that Bronx spots the "something's different" situation first.

Xanatos rests his hand on Goliath's shoulder for a moment, while talking about "There's much we can do for each other", while they're in the great hall, before the commandos show up. I like to think that that's when he planted the bug on Goliath. (It's great to see the show including those moments, playing fair with the audience. It reminds me of the delighted comments here over the episode in "The Spectacular Spider-Man" which had Chameleon impersonating Spider-Man, and how it showed how he imitated Spidey's abilities.)

This time around, I spotted a face over one of the castle doorways in the courtyard, which had a mild "Green Man" look. I also got a glimpse of a tapestry with what looked like winged beings on it, but it went by too quickly for me to make out more of the details - next time, I should probably hit "pause".

I still really like the clan's trying to make sense of their first opponents in the modern world - like Lexington asking the female commando with the blonde ponytail if she's a Viking, and Hudson initially mistaking their helicopter for a dragon.

Elisa's remark about the size of the castle's heating bill echoes (I don't know whether this was deliberate or not) a line of Bugs Bunny's in a cartoon which had him visiting an old Scottish castle and making a similar remark. (All the more an appropriate cartoon to echo, since it was filled with Shakespeare references and take-offs, starting off with "Macbeth", but also including "Romeo and Juliet" and "Hamlet" as it progressed - Bugs even said "As you like it" at one point.)

As Matthew pointed out in his review some months ago, the trio come across as almost the gargoyle version of the Three Stooges in the kitchen. (It won't be the last time they act that way, either - cf. "Turf".)

Goliath, confronting Elisa for the first time, asks her "What were you doing in my castle?" He still thinks of it as his, even though Xanatos bought it (and will have a hard time letting go of that thought in the next few episodes....).

The gargoyles refer to their Manhattan surroundings as a "new world" a few times - an apt description, given that they're now in America, which has so often been nicknamed that.

I still really enjoy the scenes in Part Three of the gargoyles making sense of the modern world - Goliath's poetic description of Xanatos's monitor as "like a living tapestry", Xanatos comparing the "stolen" disks to talismans containing lots of powerful spells in order to put it into terms that Goliath would be used to, Goliath declaring the streets of New York as even grander than the old Roman roads.

Xanatos tells Goliath that all three Cyberbiotics bases have to be hit simultaneously, so that they can't alert each other; the gargoyles fail to do that, of course. They could use some synchronization devices. (Of course, if they *had* succeeded, we wouldn't have gotten that great moment when the commander on board Fortress-One cries, "Stations One and Two have been breached. We've lost two-thirds of the data!" "Wrong!" says Demona, as she and Goliath burst in. "You've lost it all.")

Hudson masters the television remote remarkably quickly for someone who's having his second night in the modern world.

The trio aren't too good at following Goliath's orders. He tells them to stay out of sight and stay close to the castle. They break the first rule in showing themselves to Vinnie and the taxi driver (did anyone see Broadway helping himself to that cart full of pretzels? Such as the vendor?), and apparently break the second, since, just before they try hailing a taxi, they're commenting about what a long way it is back to the castle.

Bronx is sitting or lying on a recliner while Hudson is watching television. (Then again, who's going to tell him he's not supposed to be up on the furniture?)

Bruno (the chief commando) says about Goliath, "Where's the beast?" The same term that the humans of Castle Wyvern used for Goliath and the other gargoyles back in 994. Sadly, some things haven't changed. (At least Elisa quickly stops seeing Goliath that way.)

I missed the final third of "Awakening Part Four" the first time I saw it, so I had to wait until they reran it to find out how Demona survived - or, more accurately, how she claimed to have survived. I've probably mentioned this, but if you look closely, there are some strong clues that she was lying about being in stone sleep all that time. For one thing, she's a lot more bitter and hateful now. Also, Xanatos's story about transporting Demona to the castle to awaken her out of her stone sleep doesn't match what we know about the spell's terms, which were only that the castle rose above the clouds - no mention of whether the gargoyles have to be there (and in any case, we know that they were conferring back in Part Three). Not to mention, in Part Five, the revelation of her name, but I'll get to that in a bit. It needs its own paragraph.

Someone pointed out at the 2001 Gathering, when we were watching the movie adaptation of "Awakening", how the trio's raid on the tower could have filled them in on what was really going on, with a bit more communication. Brooklyn simply says to one of the scientists, "Where's the disk?" Now, if the scientist had said "What disk?" and Brooklyn had gone on to say "The one you stole from Xanatos"....

One of the funniest moments in Part Five, for me, is when Hudson slams his fist on the control panel in exasperation, and in doing so, just happens to hit the right spot to release the second disk. Almost a Gladstone Gander-level moment.

(He figures out right away what that security camera in the tunnel is, too. Maybe one of the television programs he'd been watching had included one? I wonder if that's how he also learned that the period of history he and the other gargoyles came from is now known as the "Middle Ages" - a term they obviously didn't use back then - for his "And they say the Middle Ages were barbaric" line much later on.)

Demona's confrontation with Goliath remains a really great moment. Goliath's shock at discovering that, just after it turned out that his "angel in the night" wasn't killed in the Wyvern massacre after all, he's lost her after all, to something worse than death - her going corrupt. And the way she cries "Don't say that!" when he confronts her on her part in the betrayal of the castle. (Though we won't learn until "City of Stone Part One" just how much that statement would unsettle her.) And then he has to choose between saving her or Elisa - he chooses Elisa, it's clearly the right decision, but you can still tell just how anguished he feels about it as he watches her disappear....

Demona's revealing her name is also a big moment. Besides the obvious drama, it reveals a few things about her. First, it's another hint that she wasn't really in stone sleep all that time - or when would she have found the occasion to get that name "long ago"? Second, despite her hatred of humans, she willingly bears a name they (or one particular human - though at this point, she just says "humans") bestowed upon her. And she bears a name, period, despite it not being gargoyle custom - for all her hatred of the humans, she's adopted at least one of their ways. Signs of just how conflicted she can be.

It was wonderful getting to see this beginning to the series again. I'm hoping to similarly enjoy the other sixty episodes following. And I'll probably share my thoughts here.

Todd Jensen

Happy 25th, everyone!

I think my 12 year old self wouldn't be surprised that we'd be here after 25 years, but in hindsight, it truly is remarkable.

Never The End!


Sorry for the double post, but I just looked up the Scottish counterpart to English Heritage: it's called Historic Scotland (or, in Gaelic, Alba Aosmhor).
Todd Jensen

I rewatched "Awakening" today; I'm planning to rewatch the whole first two seasons after this. Some of these observations are things I've made before but can't resist sharing again; others are things that just occurred to me.

1. I still especially like the "Scotland - 994" scenes; they were what initially drew me to "Gargoyles", with their strong medieval flavor (I remember how, the first time I saw "Awakening", I had to keep on reminding myself "This is just the gargoyles' backstory; the bulk of the show will be set in modern times"). In particular, they reminded me of the animated sequences in the PBS documentary based on David Macaulay's "Castle". (By a peculiar coincidence, the fictional castle in Macaulay's work was named Aberwyvern. I don't think there's any connection, though; "Aberwyvern" was probably intended to look Welsh, since Macaulay's castle was in Wales - "wyvern" is actually derived from Old French, though it looks Welsh with the w and y at front - while I suspect that the "Wyvern" part of Castle Wyvern's name was intended to invoke the mythical beasts. A wyvern was a two-legged dragon, which might fit the gargoyles being bipedal - except for Bronx, of course - and having some physical traits evocative of dragons, such as great leathery wings.)

Brooklyn's first line, "Shall we let our brothers and sisters have all the fun?" suggests that the production team had already worked out the gargoyles' communal family structure, though they wouldn't officially reveal it until "Avalon Part Two". His being the first of the trio to speak, and urge them on, foreshadows his being the one to become Goliath's second-in-command (though that would wait for Season Two, as well).

Demona's line after she and Goliath leave the great hall, "They should bow to us!" shows that she's already got a strong "gargoyle supremacist" outlook, even before the betrayal and sack of the castle.

Bronx looks ashamed when Goliath sends him and the trio to the rookery - one thing he's got in common with dogs is a guilty expression when in trouble.

I get a kick out of Broadway's expression as he's sniffing the mold in the rookery - almost like a very particular food critic. I can see it now - "the Gargoyle Gourmet". (Brooklyn and Lexington would probably suggest "the Gargoyle Gourmand", though.)

I've mentioned this before, but I like the fact that we only know the Captain of the Guard by his title, not his name. I think it matches his identifying more with the gargoyles (who didn't have names at that point) than with his fellow humans. (Of course, the Magus and the Archmage, neither of whom were fond of gargoyles, were only known by their titles as well, so maybe we should not read too much into this.)

I wonder whether Greg Weisman and his fellow production members have ever felt tempted, if they had the opportunity, to redo the scene where Hakon starts gargoyle-smashing, to make the gargoyle he's standing next to "Othello" (or at least, one of the ColdTrio), rather than a "generic gargoyle extra".

Another moment (or couple of moments) I really enjoy is Bronx chasing adversaries (a Viking in the fight in the camp, one of Xanatos's commandos at the castle). I've sometimes longed for a scene where he'd chase a minor bad guy off-camera, then, after a brief off-stage "Yow!" come back with a piece of cloth in his mouth - the kind that looks like it came from the seat of someone's trousers - and a pleased expression on his face.

I've recently read some remarks by Keith David on voicing Goliath (which he's still got fond memories of), in which he especially praised Goliath's cry "I've been denied everything, even my revenge!" (Certainly a big moment; when I first got on the Internet in late 1996, I discovered a "Doctor Who" forum where one of the posters had that line as his sig.) It occurred to me this time around that poor Goliath doesn't even know the full picture when he says it - that the remaining gargoyles have just been turned to stone.

Another touch I like is Goliath, during the thousand-year-sleep, frozen in a "thinker" pose. It fits a major point of his character - he's not just a mighty warrior, but also has a strong thoughtful tone. We even learn later on in Season One that he's an avid reader, who goes for the classics like Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky - more about that when I reach those episodes, though.

When Xanatos told Owen "Make the offer", I began wondering who he was buying Castle Wyvern from, something I hadn't thought of before. Presumably the castle had passed into private ownership; I doubt even Xanatos could have bought it from the National Trust, or the Scottish counterpart to English Heritage (whatever it is; I'll have to look it up). Whoever owned it before Xanatos clearly hadn't made any use of it; no sign of it being opened to tourism when Xanatos showed up there. (Maybe the ghosts of Hakon and the Captain had something to do with that?) I'm certain, though, that there's no point asking Greg; he'd simply say "No spoilers". (Especially since we know that he'd planned an early "TimeDancer" story about how Xanatos and Demona originally teamed up, with Brooklyn secretly arranging it, and may still hope to tell that story someday.)

I was going to cover all of "Awakening", but thought it'd be too much for one post; I'll write more about it tomorrow morning.

Todd Jensen

Happy 25th Gargoyles Day!

I haven't watched Gargoyles in quite some time, and I had a retrospect video pop up in my YouTube feed, so I decided to watch it again. Now my wife had never seen the series... She was absolutely blown away by the level of story telling. Needless to say she has fallen in love with the show. We will start watching Season 2 tonight. I always loved the the detailed storytelling and character and world building that took place. It's cool seeing some of the old tech that used to be around as well as the WTC in the background. I told my wife when we finished season 1 last night that if she loves the story now, just wait... She's in for a treat!
Gregory Williams - [wolfpack7119 at aol dot com]

Wow, 25 years.
It's amazing looking back and thinking about how young we were when it first came out.

Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________


Only ten more years before Gargoyles can run for President!

Some people have a bad day. I‘ve had a bad life. If I want something, it’s taken from me. If I win a fight, I lose the war. Threats only work on someone who has something to lose. But me? I already lost it all.

Yes, as Phoenician said, it's the 25th anniversary of "Gargoyles". And 19 days until it starts streaming on Disney+.

I'll confess that I have no plans to subscribe to Disney+ at present. At least I have the DVDs of the first two seasons, so I can watch "Gargoyles" on them.

Todd Jensen

Ninth and a Happy Anniversary!!

As Todd already mentioned earlier this week, today marks TWENTY-FIVE years since the premiere of Gargoyles' first episode, "Awakening: Part One".

There are plenty of stories, books, shows, comics, films in the world -- My shelves are clear indicators that I've got plenty of favorites in all those mediums, BUT I'm happy to write that Gargoyles remains my oldest and fondest favorite :)

Here's to the cast and crew, fans old and new, and some seriously exciting potential for the series with next month's Disney+ streaming! Never the End!!

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Yes, "Gargoyles" had its share of humorous moments - even to the point of a misfortune-prone fellow deciding to get back at Goliath with a banana cream pie in the face. (Though his story took a more dramatic turn in his next major appearance, where he stood up to a revenge-driven fanatic armed with an electrified hammer....)

Incidentally, I found a page on real-world gargoyles which might interest people here:


The part about lots of architectural gargoyles in Pittsburgh gave me the vision of the trio commenting, when they hear the news, that Pittsburgh could use some gargoyle protection, since, from what they've heard, it's got many pirates and stealers. Elisa decides it's time she explain to the clan again about sports team names.

Todd Jensen

Crazy Eights!

The ratio of comedy and drama does really depend on the series itself, heck it could even heavily depend on the episode too. While the new Ducktales is a much more comedic series and while it does feature a fair amount of interpersonal drama it feels more like an episode by episode case. Thus the ratio more heavily leans towards comedy.

In contrast, while Gargoyles never shied away from making jokes it always more of a drama based show, mostly because they established that there were real stakes involved as early as the first episode.
I actually think that the series with the most balanced drama/comedy ratio would probably be Avatar: the Last Airbender. There's probably others but I can't think of anything right now.

Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

TODD> Indeedy, even something like the reboot Ducktales leans a lot more heavily on the interpersonal drama between its cast then the original usual did.

One suspects if Greg was developing Gargoyles for the first time today, it might end up being some blend of the original comedy pitch and the more dramatic final product. Cute cartoony gargs getting into wacky hi-jinx but with ongoing story arcs and at least one genuinely intimidating major villain.

Time to make... my move.

All Lucky Sevens!

Also, since Algae mentioned Star vs. The Forces of Evil and its horribly inaccurate theme song, I feel compelled to post a link to a video that should discuss it on at least one level anyone can understand. Click my handle to watch Dr. Sean Carroll explains the ACTUAL concept of dimensions to a child, a teen, a college student, a grad student, and an expert.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

ALGERNON - [Though the exact ratio varies, it'd be hard to imagine Gravity Falls or Star vs. the Forces of Evil without some level of character development, ongoing story arcs or episode to episode continuity.]

Good point. While the animation style seemed more "comedy-adventure" in tone, the examples you cited did include some major "drama elements", such as a Lovecraftian entity seeking to break through into our world for the former, an arc about how the monsters that started off seeming straightforward bad guys had their own side of the story, culminating in the Big Bad in the final episodes being a fanatically anti-monster zealot embarking on a genocide campaign (which should certainly sound familiar to us "Gargoyles" viewers) in the latter.

Todd Jensen



TODD> Depends on the definitions. In recent years, the trend for a lot of Disney's in-house stuff (and tv animation in general) has been towards combining comedy, adventure AND drama. Though the exact ratio varies, it'd be hard to imagine Gravity Falls or Star vs. the Forces of Evil without some level of character development, ongoing story arcs or episode to episode continuity.
Some people have a bad day. I‘ve had a bad life. If I want something, it’s taken from me. If I win a fight, I lose the war. Threats only work on someone who has something to lose. But me? I already lost it all.

Welcome back, Battlebeast.

Today marks the start of the week in which "Gargoyles"'s twenty-fifth anniversary falls (the anniversary itself is on Thursday).

I remember a sort of "press release" at the Gargoyles Fan Website, when I first visited it in the late 90's (I haven't been able to find it, and it might have disappeared during one of its redesigns), which, announcing the premiere of "Gargoyles" back in 1994, stated that it would be Disney's first animated drama-adventure series, in a way that suggested there'd be others after it. So far, "Gargoyles" has (to the best of my knowledge) been Disney's only animated drama-adventure series; they haven't produced any more, whether the spin-offs they were originally planning to make, or ones set in their own universe. More comedy-adventures (including the "Duck Tales" reboot), but no further stabs at drama-adventure.

Of course, it makes sense that they haven't made such an attempt in recent years. Now that Disney owns Marvel and "Star Wars", it must have concluded "Why come up with a new animated drama-adventure series that might not work, when we've two big-name properties in that area with built-in fandoms?"

Todd Jensen

BATTLEBEAST> In the immortal words of Travis Marshall...

Welcome back.

Some people have a bad day. I‘ve had a bad life. If I want something, it’s taken from me. If I win a fight, I lose the war. Threats only work on someone who has something to lose. But me? I already lost it all.

Second. Wow, haven't been here in ages!
That is all I will say.

(#1)Number one with a bullet but always first over all!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!