Comment Room Archive : Gargoyles : Station Eight

I've gotten into somewhat heated arguments about this before, so I'm not sure I should comment on this again, but I think Demona would have A LOT of trouble smashing a sleeping gargoyle. I think she's all too capable of doing it, but I think it'd definitely at the very least give her pause. I think particularly in this episode she's much more concerned with outfoxing Goliath and showing him up than she is killing him, though.

I like a lot of stuff about Reckoning, obviously. The pacing is really good, it brings together a lot of different characters and environments in a natural way. I feel like maybe the pacing feels a LITTLE tight, with the change from it being a two-parter (though I don't believe this was ever written as a two-parter?) I probably think more time could have been spent on Angela & Demona's conversations, and MAYBE you could have thrown in a scene between Goliath and Angela where he shares his thoughts on Demona more concretely (honestly, I always want more insight into Goliath). But the lack of that doesn't really bring down the episode. I'll be honest, I really like when Demona rescues Angela, it makes me a little bit squishy and I love her confronting Thailog. I really like the final conversation between Angela and Goliath, and while Goliath is perhaps being overly optimistic about Demona, I think it's good for his character that he has a probably healthier, more well-rounded view of her now. Which will justify some of their interactions in Hunter's Moon as well.

Possession's a pretty good one too. CCH Poudner and Michael Dorn are fantastic. I've met Brent Spiner, and think he's a super nice guy (though he did boldly tell me he's never watched an episode of Gargoyles -- which I thought was funny), and I think his performance as Puck is really strong, but the voice has always been a little on the nasal side for me. I don't really like the Coldfire or Coldsteel robot designs either. But I like the conceit of the whole plotline. I think Gargoyles handles these multi-scheme plots pretty well. Xanatos has a plan, while Puck has a plan, while Coldsteel has a plan. And the way all those plans play into each other and the way the stories plotted is really well done.

The performances in general are really nice, and I think this is the first series I watched where this sort of thing was done in this way. Sometimes things can get a bit stilted, but I think overall it was done exceptionally well.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sun, Dec 22, 2019 2:45:52 am EST from 174.89.31.180

"Wild coincidences do happen in real life. Maybe rarely but they happen...

... I can think of many real life events and coincidences wilder than Vinnie's life."

Like I said, it wasn't the implausibility that got me, it's more that I'm just not much of a slapstick fan.
I like how Greg sees Vinnie as his avatar, a hapless schlub who caught a glimpse of the Garg-verse and is trying to make sense of it, but I found Vinnie annoying. He's much better in The Journey.

Actually, you've now got me thinking of this as a probability problem now. The Law of Large Numbers says that even if an outcome is very unlikely, if you run the experiment enough times it's almost guaranteed to happen. One way of checking for fraudulent data is to notice if it seems too irregular. If you pick a digit between 0 and 9 repeatedly, you don't expect to immediately get six 1's in a row, but if you run the experiment long enough you'll almost certainly see such a run sooner or later. Humans tend to assume such runs of bad luck are too improbable to ever occur, but that's only for small sets. Or, to be a little more poetic, if running into the gargoyles five different times is a one-in-a-million chance, then in a city of eight million there will be eight people who have it happen. Vinnie is one of the eight, Brendan and Margot are a second (I count them together, since we rarely see them separately). The jogger isn't even one of the eight, since he only ever sees them on his route through Central Park.

Regarding Possession, this is the first time we really see Iago live up to his namesake. In Legion, he plays with Othello's mind a bit, but it's pretty blatant and we've missed most of the set-up. In High Noon, he's basically just a brute. Here, though, we get to see the subtle trick of planting ideas in people's minds that made the Shakespearean villain so scary. I remember my European Lit teacher in high school saying he wanted to do a lesson where we put Iago on trial for the murder of Othello and Desdemona, though sadly we never had time.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 21, 2019 12:02:42 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

Rewatched "The Reckoning" and "Possession" today.

THE RECKONING: One thought I have about this one: Thailog must really like living dangerously. Telling Demona to her face, when she's in the same room as you and freedom of movement, that you're breaking up with her is hazardous enough. Telling her that you're dumping her for a clone you secretly made of her even more so. But adding that that clone is actually a mixture of her DNA with that of the human detective whom she really hates - that has to fall under the category of "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME".

The mosquitoes are biting from the very beginning - though I assume that the ones outside the Golden Cup Bakery were regular mosquitoes rather than the robotic kind. (The one that bit Elisa in the Labyrinth, on the other hand - that was probably the one that provided the material needed to help make Delilah, though how it reached her, I don't know. Demona obviously wouldn't have been after her DNA, so it must have been sent by Thailog and Sevarius.)

Goliath points out the problem of keeping Demona a prisoner when she doesn't turn to stone in the daytime and the rest of the gargoyles do - meaning you'd want her well away from the clan in the daytime so that she can't take advantage of the situation. That image struck me - a Demona taking advantage of gargoyles' stone sleep to smash them to pieces would be a Demona in human form, meaning that she'd have become one of the very things she most hated: a human smashing gargoyles in stone sleep, just like Hakon and his fellow Vikings during the Wyvern Massacre. I wonder what the effect on her would be. (I imagine, at least initially, arguing in a desperate fashion that it doesn't count, because she's a gargoyle even when she seems human - cf. "High Noon".) Of course, it would have to be relegated to "what-if" stories; Demona shattering the clan would automatically end the series. (I also think it unlikely that she'll smash Goliath in his stone sleep - though he's the one whom she really hates; she'd willingly get rid of Hudson, the trio, and Bronx, but without the passion that she'd put into killing Goliath - because of Greg Weisman's mention of "Goliath's sacrifice" which would change enough people/s minds about gargoyles to get the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act Passed. The sacrifice part suggests that, however Goliath dies, he does so at night, in active duty.)

Hudson warns Angela that Demona is "capable of anything". Angela will later on use those same words for Demona when she faces her in Act III.

Note that when Demona expresses outrage at Angela's claim to be her daughter, her eyes do not glow red. And we find out later that Demona knew all along, had let herself be captured partly to get close to Angela and try converting her to her way of thinking. Could the eyes not glowing red be a way of foreshadowing this revelation - hinting that she's just faking the anger?

When Thailog's breaking Demona out, Fang hides for a moment under the bedsheets. (He also tries scrambling far away when Demona and Thailog start to fall out.)

Lexington describes the Clones (while looking at Brentwood) as giving him the creeps - he'll probably feel all the more that way about Brentwood after the latter decided to go back to working for Thailog.

Goliath'x "new beginning for us all" fits the original plans to make "The Reckoning" the season finale - it certainly has that kind of tone. (But I think "Hunter's Moon" made a much better season finale.)

POSSESSION: This episode still strikes me as a tribute to the "Gargoyles" voice actors - it dared handle "possessed characters" by having them speak in their regular voices, but changing the tones to match their possessors (i.e., Bill Faggerbakke and Brigitte Bako still voice "Broadway" and "Angela", but modify their performance to evoke "Othello" and "Desdemona"). It's a delightful change to have something like this in an animated series.

Coldfire and Coldsteel's bodies are initially covered with sheets; while it keeps the audience from finding out about them too early, it also nicely evokes Coldstone's "Frankenstein"-type origins back in "Re-Awakening".

I spotted what looked like a brightly colored banner in the laboratory, but couldn't tell quite what it was.

Puck and Alex perch on what looks like the building from "The Silver Falcon" at the end of Act I - though I wasn't certain whether it was that building, or the Chrysler Building that it resembles.

Hudson calls out "lads" as he and Goliath return from patrol; the just "lads" part makes me wonder if he's still getting used to Angela being one of the clan (we'll see another suggestion of that in "Hunter's Moon Part One").

Bronx rubs against Coldstone, while magically influenced, almost as if he was a large cat.

I really like Iago-in-Brooklyn's cry of "That's impossible!" when learning that Coldstone is on the loose and apparently possessed by "Iago" - he'd definitely be bewildered by that development, since he knows the whereabouts of all three souls inside Coldstone, and that none of them are in that body now.

He cries "Au revoir!" when heading off in Coldsteel's body; apparently he's picked up a bit of French somewhere. (Maybe while Coldstone was roaming the world after the events in "High Noon"?)

Coldstone's line at the end about "we truly lived again" echoes Goliath's "we live again" in the opening sequence narration, but I don't know if that was intentional.

I still think it a pity that they had to drop the part about Xanatos and Fox's night out being a performance of Verdi's "Otello" - it was so appropriate for a ColdTrio episode.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 7:41:25 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

I did indeed have it backwards. This is why one asks!
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 6:27:03 pm EST from 184.54.103.20

Oops. Sorry. Selene is the one who sounds harsher (she says "And your servant... PUCK"), Luna is the one who sounds more ethereal, other-worldly, authoritative.

I'm not bothered by Vinnie's use as a recurring character, I just more think it was maybe, maybe a mistake to give it so much focus in this episode and draw attention to it. If the tone was more comedic, and the episode itself was more of a farce then it probably wouldn't bother me, but the episode otherwise is dealing with pretty heavy subject matter. So much of the episode is concerned with telling us who Vinnie is, and the payoff of him hitting Goliath with a pie isn't really worth all that to my mind.

I don't have a huge issue with it or anything, I don't begrudge anyone a bit of fun, it's just a lil' quibble.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 4:24:16 pm EST from 174.89.31.180

One has to wonder to what extant coincidence is even a real thing in a universe where Destiny is self-aware and can literally talk to you through rocks?
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 4:19:30 pm EST from 86.45.213.181

Wild coincidences do happen in real life. Maybe rarely but they happen...

... I can think of many real life events and coincidences wilder than Vinnie's life.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 3:41:15 pm EST from 40.131.43.180

"For a really entertaining look at this habit of Dickens, I recommend the summary of "David Copperfield" from Richard Armour's "The Classics Reclassified"."

I think coincidence-driven stories were just more accepted in that era, for whatever reason. I've never read much Dickens, but Victor Hugo had a similar habit in Les Miserables. In particular, I remember Marius spent years looking for the man who saved his father's life at Waterloo, then Thenardier rented a room next door to him. Thenardier kidnapped Jean Valjean and brought him back to his room, and Marius watched through a peephole as Thenardier tortured Jean while telling a story about having saved someone's life at Waterloo. Another example was Jean breaking into an abbey to hide from the law and landing right next to the gardener, who offered to shelter him because he just happened to be the same man Jean had saved from a carriage accident.

That said, the most well-known coincidence of Jean having a doppleganger who is arrested for Jean's crimes doesn't bother me, because false identifications are very common, especially when prompted by a police officer. Given that one of the main themes of the book and Hugo's writing more generally is the flaws of the criminal justice system, I believe Hugo was deliberately making a point about how easy it is for the authorities to railroad an innocent man.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 12:16:08 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year backlog of 2000 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)
Jordan
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 9:24:12 am EST from 157.245.46.211

Alex (Aldrius)> Which of the Luna's is actually Selene's in your post (I presume the latter, but I want to be certain)?
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 8:51:38 am EST from 104.129.205.35

TODD> It's pretty clear Destiny has singled out Vinnie to be it's whipping boy.
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 8:26:02 am EST from 86.47.42.225

I thought it a bit far-fetched myself that the motorcyclist from "Awakening Part Three", the Cyberbiotics guard from "Awakening Part Four", and the Gen-u-Tech security guard from "The Cage" were all the same guy, but it's no worse than some of the things I've come across in classic literature. I mentioned earlier this year reading "Great Expectations" and noting the way in which the Miss Havisham plot thread and the Magwitch thread coincided twice, or Pip's reunion with Herbert Pocket. For a really entertaining look at this habit of Dickens, I recommend the summary of "David Copperfield" from Richard Armour's "The Classics Reclassified".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 7:58:34 am EST from 68.231.65.221

JURGAN> "Incidentally, I’ve seen people refuse to believe Lex is gay based on this ep, which is silly for a bunch of reasons."

Heteronormativity is a hell of a drug.

Seriously tho, I think they Trio just have a tendency to be overly competitive, even with stuff they'd otherwise have no reason to care about. I doubt Lex in Upgrade really wanted to be Second either.
Algae
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 7:46:02 am EST from 86.47.42.225

Ugh. Lost my comment. To summarize:

Vendettas:

+like the tight story and the focus on Hudson (who is underutilized), it's also fun to see him and Goliath on an adventure together

+don't love the Vinnie subplot. Feels pretty self-indulgent and is a little bit distracting.

+the action sequences are okay

+Not my favourite, but I like Hakon, and I feel like the conflict is deeply personal for Hudson which gives the story A LOT of momentum.

Turf

+Not as fond of this one.

+I like Angela being assertive and her sort of jiving with the trio. She can often feel a bit ingenue-y and I like seeing her with a bit more gumption here. Sometimes it feels like Goliath's presence really holds back her character because she's so defined by being "Goliath's daughter".

+Don't love Dracon or Brod really. And bringing back Jack DOES feel pretty self-indulgent, but not necessarily inappropriate. I'm not sure it bothers me all that much to be honest, he's such a minor character and I don't even think I caught it the first couple of times I watched this episode.

+All in all not super fond of it, but I think the pacing and focus is just so much better in the post-World Tour episodes than it was in the World Tour episodes.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 5:50:12 am EST from 174.89.31.180

On rewatching the whole series on D+, I found myself warming up to episodes I used to dislike, like Monsters. But I really can’t say anything good about Vendettas. It’s just so boring. I get Wolf and Hakon aren’t exactly the most intelligent villains, but this episode is nothing but a long fight sequence. One could argue that Leader of the Pack and maybe Upgrade were that as well, but at least we had some character drama with Lex and Brooklyn. There’s just no emotional stakes to this. Goliath and Hudson don’t learn or grow in any way, so the episode isn’t really about anything. The title suggest it’s a revenge theme, but we’ve done a far better job with that in City of Stone and soon Hunter’s Moon. And the fight itself is just- competent, let’s say. It works, but it isn’t interesting. As for Vinnie, I like the concept of an average guy who gets mixed up with the gargoyles. It’s pretty implausible in a city the size of New York (same with Brendan and Margot), but there’s something charming about the notion that makes me forgive the illogic. But the slapstick is just not very good. And, yeah, Todd, I guess I did like his “unreliable narrator” schtick. Still, this is the only episode of the series that I think is a complete dud. It’s a shame, because it was Greg’s first voice directing and he has a special fondness for it.

I like Turf better. The trio’s bickering is a bit cringe, but I love when Angela finally puts her foot down. I also like that she confides in Elisa about how weird they’re acting, like Elisa is her big sister. (Incidentally, I’ve seen people refuse to believe Lex is gay based on this ep, which is silly for a bunch of reasons.). I don’t think this is made explicit, but Brod feels like a new school of criminal to contrast Dracon’s old mafia family. The one thing I didn’t like about the plot was Jack joining Brod. I find it hard to believe that a gangster in witness protection would return to a life of crime just to spite Dracon. It was a case of letting the vocal performance drive the story, and while sometimes that paid off (most notably with the Archmage), here it feels pointless. I do remember as a kid getting excited to recognize Jack as J Jonah Jameson from the Spider-Man cartoon, not realizing that the same person had been playing Hudson all along.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Dec 20, 2019 12:21:36 am EST from 174.28.6.34

I watched both "Vendettas" and "Turf" today. (Since Greg Weisman had suggested they took place simultaneously, it seemed appropriate to pair them.)

"Vendettas" has a reputation as one of the weakest "Gargoyles" episodes, and I do think that it feels not as good as "Shadows in the Past". There, Hakon and the Captain were skillfully eating away at Goliath using his memories of the Wyvern Massacre. Here, it's just a straight-out fight with a big dumb werewolf and feels monotonous as a result. (Though it had one or two good moments - I still get a kick out of the scene where Wolf's bragging how he's going to swat Goliath and Hudson like a couple of gnats, and then gets sent flying by them before he can even strike a blow.

The Vinnie parts were more fun (to me); I was particularly amused by how what actually happened didn't match his account of events, and all those misfortunes (including the part where he's so busy talking to Mr. Carter that he didn't notice Goliath and Hudson leaving). And he winds up being the one person to get a successful revenge on Goliath - with a banana cream pie.

One detail I noticed for the first time was a glimpse of a village near the former site of Castle Wyvern, in the opening shot.

"Turf" was better - though I'll admit that I wouldn't place it on a "Top Ten" episodes list. We see one consequence of Angela's joining the clan - the trio all competing for her (inevitable, when, as Elisa points out, they haven't been around an attractive female gargoyle for a thousand years - unless you count the three female gargoyles who flirted with them for a moment in "The Mirror", and they were really transformed humans), and wind up looking again like the gargoyle equivalent of the Three Stooges.

In the opening shot, we see a cat wandering about, then running off as Dracon's gang arrive. It reminded me of Greg's suggestion that Bronx had been having his own adventure with Cagney at the time of "Vendettas" and "Turf", though I couldn't tell how closely that cat resembled Cagney. (I've always assumed that Greg was joking about the Cagney part; I can't imagine him just getting out of Elisa's apartment like that - if anything, he'd probably have less impetus to leave after a long absence from it.)

Brod's using the phrase "If you want to kill snake, cut off the head" in planning to do in Dracon felt particularly apt, since "dracon" is a variant of an old word for "serpent" (which eventually evolved into "dragon").

Broadway immediately suspects - correctly - that Elisa's on another undercover mission, matching his being the one most familiar with her police work (cf. "The Silver Falcon" and "Protection").

Angela actually kisses the trio at the end, though kissing isn't traditionally a gargoyle custom. Of course, she was raised by humans.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2019 7:27:38 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

The Gathering (1&2): Again, I dunno why but it just makes me laugh when someone pulls a gun on Oberon. Even funnier when Xanatos tries to do a jump kick at Oberon and then punches Boudica.

The whole end of the World Tour arc is kind of... nonchalant. There's a lot of really nice moments: the trio meeting Angela, Hudson finding out about gargoyles living all over the world, but I dunno, I expected something... more? I'm not even really sure what. But it doesn't make the World Tour feel very impactful unfortunately.

The Goliath and Elisa scene in the rain is pretty romantic, though.

And I love how tricky Titania is. I was slightly irritated by the way Thailog was outsmarting everyone in Sanctuary, but for some reason it doesn't bother me as much here. I think Titania just feels smarter, and it feels like her plan is a lot simpler, a lot more elegant than Thailog's. Though I'm pretty sure all these dramatics and schemes weren't necessary to get what she wanted. It seems like she literally could have just proposed this to Oberon and he would have maybe accepted it, but I could be wrong on that count. The way she asks him initially makes it seem like the arrangement wouldn't have been to his liking necessarily.

Goliath being the one to come up with this is a bit odd. I really like it when Goliath is smart and has a lot of foresight, but it feels like he's missing key bits of information in this case and wouldn't necessarily know the situation properly. I suppose off-screen Titania explained what Oberon's motives were when she approached him.

I love the idea of Oberon taking on Xanatos. The King of the Modern World (Science) vs. the King of the Magical World (Sorcery). And Terrence Mann is INCREDIBLE in these episodes. And all the other characters involve (Halcyon, Petros) just makes my heart all squishy. I love Halcyon's efforts to protect his grandson.

I also love all the dimensions going on with Xanatos in this episode. My friend made the comment the other day that he loved that Xanatos was a good family man (sort of bemused by it) and I agree with that. It's a great dimension to his character, and it feels very natural and earned with everything else that happens this season. It's also great how much Xanatos genuinely LIKES Goliath.

The animation's a big step down from the last two unfortunately, but it isn't awful or anything. Just the joys of using different studios and television animation.

One thing I've always kinda wondered about was Kath Soucie's voices for the Weird Sisters. Sometimes it seems like they have consistent distinct voices. Phoebe's being louder and more grand, Luna's being harsher and darker, and Luna's being more ephemeral and distant. But then sometimes they just switch randomly. Is that an animation error or a consistent creative choice? Because here they ARE very consistent.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2019 6:04:29 pm EST from 174.89.31.180

I guess I was thinking of the opening lines of his soliloquy.
"I jest to Oberon and make him smile."

The again, Puck does play many a role; who's to say he can't be jester, servant and confidant?
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2019 3:40:11 pm EST from 73.158.223.17

Puck wasn't Oberon's jester, he was his servant. His Owen. I think Puck knows Oberon as well we Owen knows Xanatos.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2019 12:34:18 pm EST from 40.131.43.180

Jurgan: Who else would know Oberon best besides his jester?
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Thu, Dec 19, 2019 1:48:08 am EST from 73.158.223.17

One thing I find interesting is how Owen’s plan relied on knowing Oberon’s psychology. I assume it was impossible to have the force field block the floor of the tower, and if Oberon had kept his cool he would have realized pretty quickly that he could just duck under it. Owen was counting on Oberon being so offended at having his power challenged that he’d barge headfirst into the fight without a second thought.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2019 11:50:59 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

Rewatched "The Gathering", both parts, today.

I still really like the opening, with Oberon's Children entering the castle holding torches - I particularly like spotting the "extras" who are being introduced for the first time and didn't appear during the World Tour. Among them, several figures in medieval attire (one on horseback), a couple of giants (if they're frost giants/jotnar, that could make things awkward with Odin present, but for all we know, the jotnar and Aesir could have given up quarreling with each other - and if they haven't, Oberon can step in if the fight gets out of hand), a centaur, a Pegasus-style winged horse, a Gorgon-like woman (apparently not all Greek mythology beings are New Olympians), and a winged woman whom I initially thought was one of the Avalon clan, but since she's standing by the Gorgon on one of the balconies overlooking the great hall, is probably a member of the Third Race that just happens to look gargoyle-ish. For a "mythical creatures/beings" buff like myself, it's a delight.

Detail I hadn't noticed before but like: when Renard hears that Anastasia's remarried, he sadly reaches out and clasps her hand.

The Xanatoses go for prominent X's in their names: Xanatos, FoX, and AleXander. And then there's LeXington, who'll become close with Alex, who served as Xanatos's secret successor in "Future Tense", and who'll set up the Xanatos-Lexington Corporation according to the "Gargoyles 2198" hints. Hmmm....

The paintings in the bedroom change in different shots, something I hadn't noticed before: an animation error that sneaked past me when I watched it before.

When Anastasia tries to slip away with Alex (I wonder if her initial plan, before Oberon showed up, was to use the old "switch the baby with a stock of wood" stratagem - the Gathering would have prevented other members of the Third Race being available as a changeling), Xanatos says "We have a nurse". This is the only time we get a hint of one, and if Alex *does* have a nurse and Xanatos wasn't making it up (which, in light of the situation and what we know of Mr. X, is certainly likely), she won't have an enviable job - not just because of those magic lessons, but also once the gargoyles move back into the castle.

Goliath's homecoming makes a dramatic contrast with "Future Tense". We see him hugging Brooklyn and Lexington, all three of them joyous - how different from the "Future Tense" events where Brooklyn was bitter, and Lexington not just bitter but gone bad (and from the way Goliath was rejoicing in his reunion with Lex, he must have already put aside any concerns over the little guy turning evil), followed by Hudson saying "I knew you wouldn't abandon us". Such a return home must have seemed all the more a relief to Goliath after that nightmare. (Broadway, in the meantime, is embracing Elisa - again, matching his being the member of the trio who's closest to her - while Cagney leaps into Elisa's arms in joy.)

And we then have the big moment where the trio and Hudson learn about the other gargoyles, and Hudson says "We're not the last. We're not alone." A major turning point in the series (if it'll soon be overshadowed by the upcoming fight with Oberon). I'll have more to say about it another time.

Another detail that stands out to me (as a cat-lover): Cagney rubbing his head happily against Elisa's coffee-table, as he and Elisa return to the apartment after a long absence.

Goliath raises the possibility that Avalon deliberately sent him to Manhattan, not to release him from its "where you need to be" quest, but to prevent Oberon from kidnapping Alex. If so, this means that Avalon was going up against its ruler - a surprising act. But it makes sense when you think about it. If Oberon *had* taken Alex away, we can be certain that Xanatos and Fox would have gone after him to get their son back - with all their cunning, ingenuity, and resources, fueled by the passion of bereaved parents, they'd have found a way into Avalon, and an epic fight would have ensued. no matter who won, the island would have been war-ravaged and even if Oberon had won, it'd have been a costly victory. So Avalon would have seen it in its best interests to stop Oberon - a case of "the best service you can give is to stop your master from making a serious mistake". (Like the scene in Shakespeare's "King Lear" - yes, a Shakespeare play feels appropriate to cite for a "Gargoyles" episode, especially this one - where one of the Duke of Cornwall's servants tries to stop him from blinding the Earl of Gloucester, saying "I have served you ever since I was a child'/ But better service have I never done you/ Than now to bid you hold.") As Goliath would later on put it, "Frankly, it would be less trouble for you."

When Oberon begins his assault upon the Eyrie Building, his first attack bounces off the force field and bends a lamp post. Then, just after he casts his sleep spell over the city, a car crashes into the lamp post, damaging it further. The poor lamp post can't get a break.

We get appropriate adversaries for the gargoyles in terms of stone statues (not true gargoyles; the humanoid statues seemed more representations of gods or mythical heroes, though the winged lion might come closer), the one time in the series I can recall they're pitted against such beings. (Though the totem-beasts in "Heritage" might come close - but they were wood rather than stone.) Aptly, one of the humanoid statues is armed with a hammer (a traditional enemy of gargoyles - though they won't be facing one until next season), evocative of Thor (except Mjolnir had a much shorter handle). They remain stone, though, with apparently no free will - a sign, as I've mentioned before, that gargoyles are "natural beings" rather than statues brought to life by magic.

Greg Weisman mentioned once that he'd thought of having Puck break the fourth wall, but the rest of the production team objected to it. Puck does come close here, though, when he turns almost to the camera, saying "I'm on a roll." (When someone finally did break the fourth wall, it was Brooklyn instead.)

When Goliath says at the end, uncertain whether to accept Xanatos's gratitude or not, he admits "the future is not written" - is he thinking of the events in "Future Tense" and hoping that they will not come to pass (and indeed, they've already been averted in his return)?

Broadway turns to stone a bit earlier than the rest of the clan at the very end - a peculiarity (if maybe for dramatic effect) that I won't try to explain.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2019 7:46:12 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

My fav part of Future Tense is Puck doing an Author's Saving Throw in real time.

"Yes, well... that's because Thailog, um... died during the, eh... Clone Wars! Yeah, that's totally a real thing that happened."
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2019 7:19:00 am EST from 78.152.238.40

Ill Met by Moonlight: I kinda burst out laughing when Elisa pulled out her gun and pointed it at Oberon. Something about the timing of it just made me laugh. I think this is also one of the only times Elisa just like... pulls her gun out at a mythical creature in Gargoyles.

Now, a lot of the positive stuff here is pretty obvious. Kate Mulgrew is amazing. Terrance Mann is amazing. I love the designs of Oberon and Titania and how racially ambiguous they are. Not just that their skin is blue & green, but they're also clearly not just white people with blue & green skin.

Oberon is intriguing. I think Oberon and Titania put forth a lot more complexity and depth than a lot of their children do. Titania is tricky, and wily, while Oberon is arrogant but not foolish.

I like that Gabriel gets to do stuff in this episode. The animation is also really great. Sometimes the gargoyles gliding can look a bit clunky or awkward, but all the gliding scenes here are really slick.

I do like that Titania helps the mortals with a subtle clue, though everything does get wrapped up a little too cleanly for my tastes. Everyone is very forgiving and friendly by the end of the story.

Future Tense: This kind of has the opposite problem.

Okay, funny story. Reboot did an episode that was really similar to this. One of the leads, Dot, made a mistake which was potentially going to allow the main villain (Megabyte, played by Tony Jay) to take over a big part of the city. She was feeling defeated and unmotivated, So the mentor character basically induced a sort of future sight in her that allowed her to see what would happen if she failed. Her diner was ruined, the villain (Megabyte) had taken over the city, Bob (the lead) was basically killed, and her baby brother became a hardened renegade-type with a muscular body and a scar over his eye. There's even a scene where Megabyte appears on the view screen telling everyone what a greater leader he is.

Eventually in the series (two seasons later), Bob got sent into the Web (an alternate dimension), Dot's Diner was destroyed, her brother became a hardened renegade-type with a muscular body and a scar and Megabyte took over the city. The shows aired at basically the same time in totally different countries so I doubt they were influenced by eachother at all, but it's still such a WEIRD coincidence.

On the episode itself, it's really well animated (I can't believe how well animated that Alexander vs. Xanatos fight is). The pacing is breakneck (part of Puck's attempt to confuse Goliath) and I love how in rewatching it, you can see all the silly nonsense Puck was obviously coming up with as the illusion progressed. I feel like there are other ways to use the Phoenix Gate as an advantage without changing history and as usual I don't think Gargoyles uses this level of sci-fi very well, but those are pretty minor quibbles especially given how sensationalistic the episode is meant to be.

I know as a child I was surer frustrated because the beginning of this episode felt like the World Tour was coming to a close, but then we had to deal with this episode, which just feels like a massive speed bump at the end. I know for a long time, I haven't really enjoyed this one -- it was just too raw and unpleasant and pointless. But I really liked rewatching it this time for some reason. Puck's machinations were just a lot more obvious to me, and maybe I developed a thicker skin.

I think this sort of concept wound up being done better in Young Justice, with it being a shared illusion that taught the cast things about themselves, but this was still a lot of fun to re-view.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2019 4:59:35 am EST from 174.89.31.180

I just rewatched John Carpenter’s The Thing a couple nights ago, which features a young Keith David. He has a line about how he doesn’t believe in this “voodoo BS,” which is pretty funny given his song in The Princess and the Frog. He then expresses skepticism that anything could hibernate for centuries and still be alive, which is even funnier.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Dec 18, 2019 12:29:22 am EST from 174.28.6.34

The bell as a weapon against mythical creatures is still around in animation; I gather that it featured in the "Hilda" Netflix series (which I haven't seen yet, though I'd like to - but I *have* read the graphic novel series it was based on).

Rewatched "Future Tense" on DVD today.

This episode could be summarized (except that would be a spoiler - though not, I assume, to anyone in this comment room) as "Puck reveals himself to be a really sick and twisted 'Gargoyles' fanfic writer". (The really big question is what most qualifies him for the "sick and twisted" part - his making it a kill-them-all - with only Goliath and Elisa left standing at the end - or pairing up Brooklyn and Demona?)

When Goliath's talking at the beginning about missing Hudson and the trio, Bronx looks sad - clearly he misses them as well. (As did the audience, for that matter.)

We get another "Disney poking fun at itself" moment when "Xanatos", during his Xanatopia speech, transforms a homeless woman on the broadcast screen into a fairy-tale princess, ball gown and all. (And delivering the speech from a castle - though with a different architectural style than the one in Disneyland.)

Bronx looks sad when they learn about Hudson's fate; fitting, given how much of his time he'd spent sprawled out by Hudson's recliner. He and Hudson had clearly developed a bond. (I wonder if Bronx will be doing less of that, though, once Fu-Dog joined the clan, and will be spending more time in the new beast's company.)

Goliath protests to Brooklyn "We thought our odyssey was fated". I thought his word-choice apt; in the original Odyssey, Odysseus was away from home in Ithaca for twenty years. Since gargoyles age at half the speed of humans, twenty years in human terms would translate to forty years for a gargoyle - and Goliath was supposedly away for forty years. (Yes, I'm stretching here, but I couldn't resist pointing this out. And normally, if you were comparing Odysseus to anyone in the cast, you'd most likely think of someone other than Goliath - namely a certain Greek trickster....)

I liked the way they did Lexington's voice in this episode, with a slight cybernetic tone.

The Xanatos Program announces it'll download itself on every computer via the "World Wide Net" - which prompted another thought, connected to earlier remarks of mine about "Gargoyles" being a bit technologically dated now (such as the trio having a VCR). This is one of the extremely few occasions I can think of that "Gargoyles" alluded to the Internet. The only other examples I can think of are Sevarius receiving his instructions for "kidnapping" Thailog via "electronic mail", as he puts it, and Goliath getting his children by Elisa to help him research gargoyles on the Internet in "For It May Come True" (and since the latter was a "Goliath Chronicles" episode, it doesn't count). Other than that, the Internet seems absent from the Gargoyles Universe - if anyone noticed a moment with it that I missed, please let me know.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 7:25:48 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

Hey hey hey.
We've got a title for the fourth season of Young Justice. Young Justice: Phantoms
You can find more about it here:
https://thegww.com/young-justice-season-4-title-revealed/
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 5:53:38 pm EST from 73.158.223.17

I think whether Tea of Fara count as weres depends on how broad your definition is.

In most of the older European Were Lore, the werewolf is usually transformed via a deal with the Devil rather than being involuntarily cursed. That kinda tracks with Fara's pact with Anansi.
Algae
"Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 4:13:20 pm EST from 86.45.213.181

“ Do Tea Gora and Fara Maku count as weres?”

Maybe, though I got the impression they had full control over themselves in their animal state.

“ Weirdly enough, I'm not sure Curry's ever played an actual vampire in his long and varied career. Closest I could find after some googling is the Grand Wizard in The Worst Witch.”

I’d say Pennywise the dancing clown is pretty close. That scene I mentioned also had a Jack the Ripper vibe (not surprising, as Stoker likely took inspiration from that case), which would also be a good fit for Curry.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 12:41:05 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

JURGAN> Weirdly enough, I'm not sure Curry's ever played an actual vampire in his long and varied career. Closest I could find after some googling is the Grand Wizard in The Worst Witch.

Dracula's gotten namedropped once or twice over the course of the series but only as a pop culture reference. Princess Katherine's the only character in the canon to ever refer to vamps as though they actually exist.
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 12:27:42 pm EST from 78.152.238.40

JURGAN> <<I wonder what vampires and weres are like in the gargverse, as we haven’t seen either yet>>

Do Tea Gora and Fara Maku count as weres?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 12:22:31 pm EST from 40.131.43.180

I wonder what vampires and weres are like in the gargverse, as we haven’t seen either yet. Fox clearly invoked a werewolf in Eye of the Beholder, but that’s a magical analogue, and Katherine must have been thinking of something older. Is it a curse, a magical disease, something naturally occurring? It could go a lot of places.

I was trying to think if we’ve seen even a symbolic vampire, I.e., someone who feeds off others’ life to gain power. Anansi, maybe. If you lean into the Marxist read of vampires as representing the upper class, feeding on the poor, then maybe Xanatos, but that’s a stretch. But then I realize we have one character with very strong vampiric overtones, and that’s Sevarius. The good doctor doesn’t kill people, but he turns them into inhuman creatures to gain power for himself. The scene at the beginning of Metamorphosis where he approaches Maggie shivering on the street and charms her into coming with him is straight out of Dracula. Tim Curry’s scenery chewing and vaguely Eastern European accent just adds to the B-movie vibe.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 12:15:35 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

JURGAN> Katherine clearly knows her legendry, considering she gives us our first (and so far only) piece of Gargverse vampire lore in this very ep.
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Tue, Dec 17, 2019 6:47:51 am EST from 78.152.238.40

The weapon used against Oberon was certainly a surprise to me. I assume Katherine already had heard stories of fairies being hurt by church bells, as Titania’s clue was so vague that I can’t imagine anyone figuring it out without some foreknowledge. It’s another interesting case of the show adapting legends to fit its own mythos. Medieval people probably assumed fairies were weak to church bells because they were believed to be sanctified, but in the Gargoyles universe it was because they were at least partly made of iron. I do wonder if they could have used bells against Oberon in The Gathering. Obviously that little bell wouldn’t suffice when he was at full power, but there are a lot of churches in New York, and I’d imagine some of them have bells. Maybe if they all rang in unison...
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 11:19:51 pm EST from 174.28.6.34

BRAINIAC - Captain America's one of those Marvel super-heroes that everybody's heard of, even if they're not familiar with Marvel, through a sort of pop culture osmosis. Captain Britain, not as much.

Rewatched "Ill Met By Moonlight" on DVD today. New thoughts and observations on it.

This contains probably the strongest dose of Shakespeare in the series. Oberon, Titania, and the Weird Sisters are all on-stage characters, the title is taken from "A Midsummer Night's Dream", Ophelia is first named, Oberon says "The game is afoot" (it comes originally from the "Once more unto the breach" speech in "Henry V", though it's better-known nowadays for its use by Sherlock Holmes), Goliath uses the phrase "foregone conclusion" (from "Othello"), and says at the end "All's well that ends well".

I like the two beacons at Avalon's landing-place - a fiery beacon on one side, and a pillar with a blue glow on top on the other.

Gabriel, greeting the travelers, says he'd like some adventure - another case of "Be careful what you ask for" (Goliath will get that in the next episode, Puck a couple of episodes later, and then there's a certain line of Brooklyn's at the end of "Turf").

More hunting allusions: Titania's incantation when she's magically restraining Oberon includes the line "Till hunt be done", and Oberon, after defeating all three gargoyles, says "And so ends the hunt". This time, of course, it's not a human hunting the gargoyles. (Oberon also says, in an echo of hunting, "the rabbits would face the fox" - I can't help thinking in response, "No, they're facing the fox's stepfather, but we're not supposed to know that for another couple of episodes.")

I've probably mentioned this before, but I have a theory about the specific act of scorn for mortals Titania committed that led Oberon to divorce and banish her (and the rest of the Third Race). There's a poem by John Keats called "La Belle Dame Sans Merci" about a knight who falls in love with a fairy-woman, only to be abandoned by her and fall into despair. You can read it here:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44475/la-belle-dame-sans-merci-a-ballad

My theory is that Titania was the lady in the poem, and her act of abandoning the knight was what prompted Oberon's sentence. The notion appeals to me, because we know that Titania finds it difficult to stay interested in humans for long (the reason why she left Renard), which fits the lady's actions here - and it weaves another piece of classic literature (and public domain, fortunately) into "Gargoyles".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 7:26:18 pm EST from 68.231.65.221

I'm not sure Goliath is the biggest threat to her plans. I think between Awakening and City of Stone, a lot of her hatred of him was focused on him rejecting her for humanity and wanting to take control of what was left of the Wyvern clan for herself. But I guess a lot of "The Recknoning" was probably about her proving her dominance over Goliath (much like in Re-Awakening). But I think her fixation on him, wanting to kill him, wanting him back as a mate, which certainly plays out with her choosing Thailog as a mate, is maybe over at this point. But I'm definitely not certain about that.

But honestly, thinking over it all, I have no idea what Demona is going to do next. To be clear, Greg, I'm not saying anything you're saying isn't true and are definitely likely possibilities.

I know Demona says she wants to eradicate humanity in Awakening. But saying I want to eradicate humanity, and wishing to eradicate it from a magical sprite are two different things. Subtle distinction, certainly, but anyway, the point is, the episode showcases her doing nasty things but it also gives her some other colours. Even the scene at the end where she's basking in the warmth of the sun shows another side of her character.

I know I'm not communicating it very well but I am supporting what you're saying; you can know a character isn't going to "redeem" themselves but still show many different aspects and colours of their character without it being important that their arc is going to end in a foregone conclusion. Angela is never going to convince Demona to abandon waging war on humanity, but that doesn't mean there can't be more to their relationship than that.

To Jurgan's point, though, I think when you know the conclusion of something it can take the dramatic tension out of a plotline. If we know for a fact Angela and Demona's relationship ends badly it's harder to get invested in it. That doesn't mean it's not possible.

It's not silly that Gargoyles were involved in the civil war, more that Demona was a central figure of that conflict again; but I guess it is somewhat expedient in a narrative sense. But I think it does sort of take away from the concept of her sort of just rallying the shattered remnants of the gargoyles of Scotland to become scavengers and outcasts before she teams up with Macbeth in City of Stone. Especially since the whole point of that arc was that she had to learn to trust a human again after the Captain's betrayal at Wyvern. While she was just planning on using the Grim and Constantine and then killing them both, even that felt a little callous and conniving for her at that point in her arc.

In terms of the grander narrative and her relationship with Brooklyn and her desire for the Grimorum, her involvement in that story definitely works. Certainly I think it's pretty clear at this point that the reason she chose Brookyln as a way to steal the Grimorum back in Temptation was as a sort of twisted revenge for messing with her in the past. I mean really in "Temptation" she evidently knew more about him than he knew about himself. And that's really cool.

Anyway, Re: Cloud Fathers.

Love, love this one. Probably one of my favourites of the whole world tour. Coyote is one of my favourite Children of Oberon because he's probably one of the most benign.

Xanatos being included also gives the story A LOT of focus, and he's a lot of fun too. Every scene with Xanatos just works.

Just nothing but nice things to say about this one.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 5:00:33 pm EST from 174.89.31.180

And eleven, because why stop a good thing?
Matthew
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 3:35:48 pm EST from 64.85.228.110

10th. Just made it.
Adam
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 3:04:09 pm EST from 170.112.1.251

BRAINIAC> ANGLUND!!!
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 11:18:47 am EST from 78.152.238.40

Eighth!

A question for any UK fans (or particular devotees of a certain chivalric gargoyle)...do you feel this comparison is accurate?

https://twitter.com/SnowWolf2012/status/1206179024981987329

Kinda makes me wonder what he'd think of Captain Britain and the Marvel UK output he entirely missed.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 9:41:36 am EST from 104.129.205.35

TODD <<Xanatos's "You must be very proud" line - he clearly knew about Angela being Goliath's daughter. Most likely from Sevarius after the events in "Monsters", though the family resemblance is noticeable.>>

And if not from Sevarius, then definitely from Bruno.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 8:09:56 am EST from 40.131.43.180

I rewatched "Cloud Fathers" on DVD yesterday, but decided to wait until this morning to comment on it.

This is the episode which: a) had Goliath and Xanatos's last battle (if you don't count "Future Tense") in the television series (and even to date, since Goliath didn't participate in the Stone of Destiny adventure in "Clan-Building") b) had Peter and Beth Maza meet the gargoyles and c) revealed more about Peter's background. It also brings in Coyote the Trickster - who, appropriately, is the target for Xanatos and his Coyote robot.

(For anyone here who took an interest in Coyote the Trickster, I'd like to recommend the webcomic "Gunnerkrigg Court", which features him as a major character - though with a very different character design. It also did a "spin-off" booklet about him in which he goes on his own "world tour", encountering various mythical canids - and makes his own visits to Japan and Australia.)

This time while watching it, I wondered how Bronx left Beth's apartment. Goliath and Angela glided away without him, and I don't think the Mazas could have taken him out of the building the regular way - it would have required too much explaining. Maybe he climbed down the wall?

Xanatos's "You must be very proud" line - he clearly knew about Angela being Goliath's daughter. Most likely from Sevarius after the events in "Monsters", though the family resemblance is noticeable.

He makes his famous remark about "my first real stab at cliched villainy" - trust Xanatos to make a remark like that. (And he - in a sense - makes an even bigger stab at that only two episodes later, though it doesn't actually count.)

Speaking of Xanatos, his "Oh, hello, Goliath, almost didn't see you there" line from "The Cage" in the "Previously on Gargoyles" section reminded me of a thought I'd recently had about Xanatos in the second season, though I'll save that for later (I'm thinking of a sort of "summing-up" commentary once I reach the end.)

Xanatos uses a bit of hunting terminology, referring to Coyote the Trickster as his "true quarry" - though this time the quarry isn't a gargoyle.

The scene where Coyote the Trickster disappears when the Mazas look away for a moment reminds me of a bit of lore about faerie-folk (such as leprechauns) - it's said that if you take your eyes off them, even for a second or two, they immediately disappear. Coyote the Trickster evidently uses this as well (which fits in with the revelation, a few episodes later, that he's one of the Third Race).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 7:50:58 am EST from 68.231.65.221

Apologies for the double post...

I could also very much seeing Demona going out of her way to not target the Quarrymen. I'm not saying she'd never go after any, she has poor impulse control. But... Demona isn't stupid, and let's be honest, from her twisted POV, she benefits from the Quarrymen. What else bolsters her argument more than they do? Yeah, she'd regard them as a threat, but I can also see her regarding them as something between a necessary evil and useful idiots.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 6:21:25 am EST from 73.167.128.71

ALDRIUS> "I think Demona trying to kill Goliath is a bit tired at this point. If you want my personal opinion, I don't think she's forgiven him or anything, but I don't think she's quite as fixated on him as she used to be. She has other juicier targets who are making themselves known in the world now. The Quarrymen, Thailog, lots of people for her to hate.

But maybe she blames him for spoiling her Hunter's Moon plan, and that's driving her now. I kind of... hope not? Because I'm not sure how interesting I think that is, but that's certainly a possibility."

Hey, hope springs eternal... but she's not going to stop making herself miserable.

Goliath is ultimately the biggest threat to her plans, and from her POV, a corrupting influence on the clan and maybe, once she learns about them, other gargoyles. And Elisa tops her Hate List... because her fragile psyche cannot take the detective's very existence.

"The Mirror for example doesn't soften Demona or anything; I think it's the first episode where she literally pointedly says she wants to eradicate humanity, so it shows that her rhetoric isn't just talk but a genuine desire."

She says it in Awakening Part Five.

"I'm not sure how I feel about Demona being involved in ANOTHER Scottish civil war as a central figure. It seems a bit silly at this point, but I like the stuff between her and Brooklyn."

How is it silly? Gargoyles has been constantly weaving history in and out... what should she have been doing in 997 instead? She had already gathered her make-shift clan... and Brooklyn brought her in because they needed her clan... and she saw an opportunity to steal the Grimorum. I see nothing "silly" about this.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 6:08:34 am EST from 73.167.128.71

Will!
Irma!
Taranee!
Cornelia!
Hay Lin!
Algae
“Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 5:09:24 am EST from 78.152.238.40

@Jurgan - In regards to Timedancer in Clan-Building. I actually hadn't read volume 2 of the Clan-building arc until recently because I couldn't really afford it when it came out. I think it develops Demona a lot honestly. I think Demona was WAY more aware of what was happening in season 1 of Gargoyles than anyone even imagined, and Timedancer shows that.

So it doesn't really progress her character forward, but it does retroactively showcase more of what drove her, and maybe show her at a time when she was a bit more agreeable (which does make the character a little more digestable than if she was just always murdering people). I think you don't need to show a character growing necessarily, but showing other sides of a character does help keep them feeling fresh and not monotonous. The Mirror for example doesn't soften Demona or anything; I think it's the first episode where she literally pointedly says she wants to eradicate humanity, so it shows that her rhetoric isn't just talk but a genuine desire. But... she also spends most of the episode playing straight man to Puck.

I'm not sure how I feel about Demona being involved in ANOTHER Scottish civil war as a central figure. It seems a bit silly at this point, but I like the stuff between her and Brooklyn. Demona can actually be quite conniving at times, considering how willfully ignorant she can be. I also think in terms of Brooklyn it maybe gave him some insight into what she had been dealing with for so long.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 2:33:52 am EST from 174.89.31.180

...Whelp, I'm fourth, so add Tsukasa Shishio to that list, I suppose.

As for Demona, to borrow a phrase from another of the Wise Man's works, I'd term her as "passionately in hate with whoever happens to be standing in front of her at the time."

While obviously capable of long-term planning, Demona is eminently impulsive and her vengeful streak can clearly switch targets on a whim. Depending on who happens to have wronged her most recently, Goliath, the Hunters, Castaway, Xanatos, Macbeth, Thailog, and Random Human #47 may wind up in the crosshairs of her undying vengeance at any given time.

Elisa's always gonna top the list, though.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I'm still Lily, and that's who I'm always going to be!" - Lily Hoshikawa
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 2:15:57 am EST from 76.173.134.25

Senku Ishigami, Taiju Oki, and Yuzuriha Ogawa!
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"I'm still Lily, and that's who I'm always going to be!" - Lily Hoshikawa
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 2:07:44 am EST from 76.173.134.25

...third?

From last week:

>>I think, if anything, Angela being around is going to make Demona more fanatical... suddenly Angela has become her newest excuse... "I'm doing this for your own good". Hey, it also makes it easier to bury those repressed feelings of guilt.

As for Goliath, I doubt that he's out of Demona's cross hairs. Demona might still see him as a corrupting influence who's misplaced faith in humanity (from her POV) will lead to Angela's death. I doubt that Goliath being the father of her child is going to make much of a difference there.

Demona is a master at rationalizing her terrible actions. Angela will be a new layer, but I don't think she's going to de-fang her.<<

I definitely don't want her defanged. I mean more stuff like, keeping Angela safe was a consideration for her Hunter's Moon plan. But that didn't stop her from going through with it. I'm not really even sure of the specifics of what I'm talking about. I think honestly, whatever story involves Angela & Demona next is going to have to involve Angela realizing how far gone her mother is and how difficult it'll be to reconcile with her in any meaningful way.

I think Demona trying to kill Goliath is a bit tired at this point. If you want my personal opinion, I don't think she's forgiven him or anything, but I don't think she's quite as fixated on him as she used to be. She has other juicier targets who are making themselves known in the world now. The Quarrymen, Thailog, lots of people for her to hate.

But maybe she blames him for spoiling her Hunter's Moon plan, and that's driving her now. I kind of... hope not? Because I'm not sure how interesting I think that is, but that's certainly a possibility.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Dec 16, 2019 2:05:03 am EST from 174.89.31.180

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