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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 29, 2019

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Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year backlog of 2000 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)


Reread Chapters Three to Six of "Clan-Building": the Double Date story and the Coldstone in the Himalayas story.

The Double Date story is the second Halloween story in "Gargoyles". Halloween is the only holiday to involve itself in "Gargoyles" so far (unless you count the New Year's Eve moment in "Bad Guys", or a mention of the medieval holiday of Michaelmas in "Avalon Part One") - not surprising, given that it's the only holiday which the gargoyles would pay much attention to, for the obvious reason that it allows them to safely mingle with the humans. All the other holidays would seem less relevant - I know that Bishansky has criticized the tendency by many "Gargoyles" fans to imagine the clan celebrating Christmas, for example. As for New Year's Eve/Day, while the gargoyles would obviously note the seasonal cycles (especially the nights growing longer in winter and shorter in summer), the division point from one year to the next would seem more a "human kind of thing" - and as for numbering the years, that'd be up there with the peculiar human obsession with names (and while the Manhattan clan did wind up accepting names, that other practice wouldn't seem so important to them, beyond comprehending when certain developments in human history took place, if those became important).

(This strikes me as a major difference between "Gargoyles" on one side and "The Spectacular Spider-Man" and "Young Justice" on the other; the latter two series did make far more use of the year's cycles and various holidays as landmark moments, as I recall. Of course, the leads in those two series were humans - or, if aliens, aliens who were seeking to fit in with humans, which would account for the difference.)

After watching the television series straight through for the past two months, and noting how often those fights in the castle would demolish parts of it, I could comprehend even more Owen's stepping in to stop Goliath and Thailog's confrontation from turning into the kind of fight that might do yet more property damage, and making it clear that he's gotten fed up with all those repairs. (He'd shown signs of that even as far back as "Enter Macbeth".) Of course, there still is a fight in the end, but the castle goes untouched this time.

I've had a yearning for some time to see the final panel in Chapter Four, where Thailog stabs Goliath, next to some Victorian or medieval depiction of Mordred delivering King Arthur his fatal wound at Camlann. The same principle of the scheming illegitimate son striking against his father. (Though Goliath didn't need to be carried off to Avalon for healing from that wound; Dr. Sato was able to do the job.)

Brooklyn continues his pattern of "looking for love in all the wrong places" when he shows a bit of interest in Delilah, only to see her: a) asked to the party by Goliath, and b) standing next to his clone, of all people, in such a way as to make it clear they're a couple.

And I think that Keith David must regret this story didn't become a television episode; Goliath, Officer Morgan, and Thailog all get big roles here. (When I first learned about the Double Date idea, I hoped that Elisa's date or it would be Officer Morgan rather than Jason. While there are obvious reasons against Jason as the date, what really appealed to me about Morgan as the candidate was the symmetry: both female participants voiced by Salli Richardson, both male participants by Keith David.)

Morgan gets to meet the gargoyles without knowing that he's meeting them, of course (unlike Dr. Sato, who gets brought into the loop). Broadway comments on his Sherlock Holmes outfit, "Cool costume" - I wonder if this is another mark of his interest in detective matters (though Broadway seems to prefer the Sam Spade-style detective over the Holmes-style detective, if "The Silver Falcon" is any indication).

One other feature of the Double Date story; it starts off with some focus still on the public response to the gargoyles' revelation (I especially liked the part about the Illuminati's "approval" of Matt, Xanatos, and Castaway's plans), but it fades into the background as the story continues and won't come to the foreground again. A sign that Greg Weisman's own plans would have made this element less "stage center" than "The Goliath Chronicles" did. (Though I think that part of the real problem with the "Goliath Chronicles" approach was, not making it the main element, but handling it poorly.)

At the start of Chapter Six, Angela's pointing out that there's no reason to hide in the castle when "the bad guys" will only seek them out there. While she's referring to Thailog's actions in the previous story, I found myself remembering that Greg Weisman had planned for the lead characters of "Bad Guys" to do battle with the Manhattan clan at one point. Foreshadowing?

And this chapter also continues the "Gargoyles" pattern of bringing on-stage elements alluded to in previous stories: Elisa's "Zen master" joke from "Metamorphosis" is followed up here by an actual Zen master taking part (and who gets some great lines).

There are other things that I might have discussed (like the total number of Illuminati membership slots - I still recall my astonished response to that one - Brentwood's defection, etc.), but I've mentioned them before, so I'll end my comments here.

Todd Jensen

Matthew> Indeed, there's a reason the phrase "beware the quiet ones" exists.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Bit of a bait-and-switch in my opinion. The idea that the most passive of the Hunters would end up being the greatest threat to our heroes.
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's not believable or that it's nonsensical, just that in terms of the episode it's very quick. Especially in regards to Jon's weakness. He goes from being a very passive character to being a very active one, and especially considering how well balanced and paced the story is otherwise it stands out.

And I understand this is a common complaint about the episode, but I'm not really attacking it from a characterization POV (which I think is the more common critique) -- I get why Jon goes after the Gargoyles, and I think it's believable but more in terms of the episode's pacing in of itself I think it's a bit of a weak arc.

And yes, certainly, further development would have probably helped a lot. But in terms of Hunter's Moon it feels a LITTLE bit like an afterthought because there just isn't time to get into Jon when there's so much other great stuff going on.

Alex (Aldrius)

Then again who is to say we would always be seeing Jon as a frothing at the mouth hate monger. I am sure we would have seen a few more Humanizing episodes for him. Especially after he realised Jason had survived being shot. But we never had the chance to see how Jon was doing before Greg W. left the series.
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!

I think it's more that it feels abrupt relative to Demona's descent. While we don't see how everything went from her time as the Archmage's apprentice to pushing Goliath to take over leadership of the clan to eventually conspiring with the Captain and, of course, That Line, it's all a clearly delineated progression over a very long time. Jon, by comparison, very rapidly goes from his passive disagreement to near-frothing rage because of his internalized guilt. While he shows mercy towards the gargoyles in the clock tower, he feels that mercy has directly resulted in the death of his brother. As such, the only way he can deal with that gnawing guilt is to focus it into wrath against the gargoyles, an attempt to correct his mistake (as he sees it). And that all leads to the confrontation in the cathedral, shooting his brother and thus TRULY harming him directly...and then he's in the same trap as Demona. The only way to deal with the guilt is to force it onto something external. Because if not, Jon would have to face his responsibility for everything that's happened. And just like Demona, right now...he can't. It's not him, it's THEM. It's ALWAYS them.

Was it faster than Demona's? Of course. We have three episodes over a few nights with Jon, we've had two seasons with flashbacks covering many years for Demona. His descent will ALWAYS feel far more "rushed" than hers. But that doesn't make it any less believable or any less of a reflection of Demona's own (not that either one of them would appreciate or admit to the comparison). In the end, their actions are all a cage to trap the horror at what they've done, a ten-ton layer of concrete covering their own weaknesses.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

ALDRIUS - I'd disagree with you on Jon's transformation seeming rushed. I've mentioned this before, but if you take a closer look at him and his actions, his downfall is well prepared for.

Though Jon periodically voices his unease about the hunt, he always gives in to his siblings, always backs down. He doesn't stand firm. This becomes especially clear in Part Three.

First, Jon makes the broadcast exposing the gargoyles' existence to the world and making them appear like monsters - even blaming them for the destruction of the clock tower - without even a hint that he argued with Jason and Robyn about it. He'd spared them at the clock tower shortly before, but then gave in - and it's arguable that this might be worse than everything he does as Castaway, since at this point, he was aware that what he was doing was wrong, and did it anyway.

Second, during the fight at the dam, when Elisa asks him if he can't do something to stop the fight, he only says "I wish I could" - with it being clear he's not even making the effort. (Compare this with how Jason, after he'd realized at last that the Hunt was wrong, *did* stand his ground, didn't back down, even took a shot for Goliath.)

Jon was weak, and this weakness led to his fall at the end.

Todd Jensen

(Also, Todd I hope you haven't minded my sort of piggy backing on your feedback, I feel like by the time I joined the fandom everyone had kind of talked out the series -- so it seemed like a good opportunity in my eyes.)

Hunter's Moon might be my favourite Gargoyles story of all time. The pacing is incredible. Every character has stuff to do that feels relevant and important. I love Goliath in this episode. I love how the writers toy with the morality of the characters in this story, and more than all that I love the scope of the story. Yes Demona's plan has a global scale, but the real meat of this storyline is the deep personal effect it has on Goliath.

The animation's lovely. I think this has my favourite Demona transformation (the one in High Noon is good too), though Demona's tiara loves materializing when she transforms.

I'm not sure what else to say about it, there's a lot of really great, emotional moments. Everyone carrying Hudson out of the wreckage of the clock tower. I think the only flaw is MAYBE Jon's transition is a tiny bit rushed. It's very sudden and there's not really time to give the plot the breathing room that it maybe needed, especially after the first two episodes kind of set him up as "the nice one", even if ultimately he wasn't.

But there's just so much to love here. Goliath's "You'll join him soon enough" sends a chill up my spine. There's also Elisa. I feel like a lot of the time Elisa's inclusion can be a bit... obligatory. There's times where she just doesn't really have much to do with whatever's going on. So they kind of have to find stuff for her to do, but in this episode that isn't a problem at all and she feels very connected to the actual events, and like she has a stake in them outside of just being the clan's friend. Which I think is awesome.

Yeah, another set of episodes I pretty much have nothing but nice things to say about.

Alex (Aldrius)

For those who celebrate, Merry Christmas!
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

Thank you for your kind words, Bishansky.

I wound up rereading "The Journey" (Chapters One and Two from "Clan-Building") today. I was originally planning to save "Clan-Building" for later this week, after Christmas was over, but today's page on my "This Day in History" desk calendar gave for its historical event the founding of the Ku Klux Klan (yes, it was apparently founded on Christmas Eve - talk about disturbing timing), and it seemed appropriate to read the "Gargoyles" story about the founding of the Quarrymen thereby. (It occurred to me today, incidentally, that Goliath would have been as disgusted by the "Klan" part of the KKK's name as he was by Dracon calling his extortion racket "protection".)

I mentioned in my comments on "Hunter's Moon" that it ended with things seemingly looking better for the gargoyles, despite their hardships in that story. "The Journey" shows that they've still got problems. For a start, they've still got the "feared by the public" problem, which wasn't resolved by the end of "Hunter's Moon" (though the last two scenes, as I also mentioned, drew the audience's attention away from the problem). Also, they raise the question (especially from Brooklyn) of whether Xanatos really has changed that much; the matter isn't pursued in that story, but it's still there. (Brooklyn's sardonic "Welcome home" line probably sums it up best - in stark contrast to Elisa's "Welcome home" line at the end of "Hunter's Moon".)

The hunting imagery continues, even past the Hunters' arrival in New York - not just the Quarrymen's name (one meaning of "quarry", remember, is a hunt's prey) but also Vinnie's talk on the news about hunting a gargoyle down, using that exact word: "hunted". (And going into so little detail about his feat that it's small wonder both Castaway and Taro got the wrong impression.) Castaway even describes Vinnie as having "hunted these beasts before".

I liked the way that, in Greg's rewrite for the comic, the "Mightwatch" news broadcast serves as a frame, starting and ending the story. Pity that the television episode didn't use it. (Though I did once see a commercial for "The Goliath Chronicles" using footage from this episode to cast it in the form of a news report by Travis Marshall with the "action scenes" having "recorded earlier today"-type captions edited in, and ending with Travis saying something like "While the controversy continues, one thing's clear" - shot of the gargoyles awakening from their stone sleep, stone fragments flying in all directions - "someone's going to have to clean up the mess."

The public response captures effectively the sense of what's happened - creatures thought to be mythical have turned out to be real. It's as if Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster was proved to actually exist (and, unfortunately: a) the footage proving it to be real showed it apparently going on a rampage and b) instead of being discovered in a Scottish loch or in a remote woodland somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, it appeared in the middle of a major city). The Jogger's puzzling over just what they are (even suggesting they're aliens - just what we need to produce more inaccurate speculations about their origins) and even suggests they capture and dissect one. (For that matter, Castaway in his speech describes the gargoyles as "alien" - though I doubt even he intended to suggest they were alien in the sense of extra-terrestrial.)

I really like the "new scene" of Goliath's confrontation with Art - it even had a bit of humor with Goliath telling the man "You may keep your weapon", after having twisted it into a spiral shape.

I also really like Margot's arguments about the gargoyles and how they're disproved by the scenes with the clan back at the castle. (We also see how the trio are drifting apart - Lexington playing with Alex in the nursery, Broadway reading - and now he's reached Shakespeare - with Angela, and Brooklyn brooding by himself. And, of course, Brooklyn's adventures some chapters later will accelerate that drift.)

It strikes me that the new production team didn't read this story closely enough; if they'd paid closer attention, they might not have made a lot of the errors that they made. "The Journey" makes it clear that the public don't know what the gargoyles are, as I said above - they're seeing them in terms of "cryptids proven to be real" rather than "a human minority family moving into an all-white neighborhood". Certainly hardly anyone (except for those who know the gargoyles well already, like Macbeth) is suggesting that they're intelligent beings - Margot is certain that they're mere animals and should be locked up for study. (It puts her in contrast with Castaway, who wants to just slaughter them all. I do suspect there'd be many people out there who, while not keen on the gargoyles, would be in favor of taking them alive - after all, they're previously unknown life-forms, and killing them would be wasteful. Practically every biologist and zoologist must be yearning to find out more about them.) If only the "Goliath Chronicles" production team had read those parts more closely instead of seeing the gargoyles through an "X-Men" prism.

It's also clear that the Quarrymen are mostly ordinary people, with Banquo and Fleance, the "henchmen"-type characters, as just Castaway's assistants rather than the norm. That element should have been kept by the rest of the "Goliath Chronicles" episodes. (I don't think it's that improbable, either. Remember, all the public knows at this point is that the gargoyles are seemingly dangerous "monsters"; they won't be thinking in terms of racial minorities. I certainly doubt that they're thinking of the KKK - Castaway even made the uniforms different enough - dark blue rather than white, and the hoods look like executioners' hoods rather than pointing straight up.) And, as I mentioned in my last post, making the Quarrymen nearly all "violent criminal"-types blurs the point about them.

(I might add that I can see other differences between the Quarrymen and the KKK - for a start, I think the Quarrymen would have resembled the Klan more if they'd been founded in the aftermath of the Gargoyle Minority Protection Act, as a protest against it.)

And finally, Goliath's words at the end about how he was "waiting for [his] clan to arrive at some kind of final destination... but life is about the discoveries made on the journey itself". Again, the "Goliath Chronicles" production team clearly missed that part, by structuring the season (and especially "Angels in the Night") around reaching a "final destination".

There were other things I could have discussed, but a lot of them - Castaway's recruitment speech, for example - I've spoken about before here. So I'll close, wishing this comment room a happy Christmas Eve.

Todd Jensen

"While I'm not entirely certain I want to see "Gargoyles" return (though I'll save that for another time)"

Any doubts I may have had there were erased by the quality of the writing and storytelling in the SLG comic.

Greg Bishansky

TODD> As always, your insight and understanding of "Gargoyles" humbles me. I admit, sometimes I think that there's nobody else in the fandom who understands this series better than I do... understands it just as well, yes. There are a lot of them, and I love engaging in conversation with them. But better, no.

Yes, it's arrogant on my part... I admit it.

And then there's you... and you humble me. And I mean that in the best possible way. I've been reading your posts and conversing with you for twenty-two years now and it never gets old, and you never cease to open my eyes to more possibilities.

Greg Bishansky

One other thought on the Hunters that I forgot to mention in my previous posts. I think there was a big advantage in making their main target Demona. Obviously, you've got to have them eventually threaten Goliath and his clan to make them feel like antagonists, but I believe it was important that they began as hunting Demona, with her their primary quarry.

I'll say more about the Quarrymen after I reread "Clan-Building" and share my thoughts on it (especially "The Journey"), but I still hold that one of the big mistakes the "Goliath Chronicles" made was depicting them as almost all "professional bad guys", a crowd of hired mercenaries (with even the few apparently-civilian Quarrymen, like Margot's assistant in "Angels in the Night", being written more as if they were infiltrators and moles than a sign of ordinary people being part of the movement). The problem here is that Goliath and his clan, who are the main gargoyles in Manhattan and thus the ones whom an anti-gargoyle group would most likely be after, are protectors, crime-fighters. That blurs the xenophobia issue. The kind of guys who were in the "Goliath Chronicles" take on the Quarrymen would be fighting the gargoyles anyway, even if they knew their true nature - especially if they knew their true nature - because they'd be getting in the way of their preying on the ordinary citizens. It'd be no more about fear of the unknown and "other" than, say, all the muggers and other violent criminals in Gotham City banding together to take down Batman. And short of, say, having another gargoyle clan openly move to Manhattan that isn't interested in patrolling the city or crime-fighting (which would be far too complicated), there'd be no way to fix this. (Admittedly, it *would* explain the infamous plot hole in "The Goliath Chronicles" of the Quarrymen setting up phony "people in distress" as bait for gargoyle-traps.)

at the same time, it's a natural temptation to have such people be the ones trying to kill the gargoyles - and the Hunters themselves started off as a hired assassin and a couple of tyrants (three tyrants if you include Constantine). Even the Canmore Hunters demolished a police station in their hunt for the gargoyles.

But having Demona, a gargoyle who *does* prey on humanity, is a genuine threat to the human race, who certainly has zero interest in protecting humans, be the one whom the Hunters were most after, helps make it clear that the main motive for the hunt is hatred for gargoyles as gargoyles, rather than as just "winged super-heroes getting in your way". And I think "Hunter's Moon" did a good job of showing that, while the Canmores are aware of Demona's designs against the human race, they were after her to settle a private vendetta rather than to protect humanity from her.

After "Hunter's Moon", of course, the focus of Jon Canmore/Castaway and his followers will be more likely on Goliath and the other members of the Manhattan/Wyvern clan, rather than on Demona (we don't know what Demona is doing next, apart from retrieving the crystal that powered the Praying Gargoyle, but I imagine that she'll be keeping a low profile for quite some time. All the more so given that: a) a big plan she'd been spending centuries on just failed and b) she's evidently lost control of Nightstone Unlimited to Thailog). While I'm not entirely certain I want to see "Gargoyles" return (though I'll save that for another time), I would like to see how Greg Weisman would have depicted the Quarrymen in such a way to, even at their worst, leave us with the impression that they're going after the gargoyles with electrified hammers because they're gargoyles, not because they're heroic defenders.

Todd Jensen

I always thought an episode or two about the Wild Hunt that would somehow involve the pack would make for an interesting story.
Get on it fanfic writers!

Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________

Would the Wild Hunt be some of Oberon's Children?

And would they have any particular interest in the Pack or the Canmores, like Puck was interested in Xanatos?

Or will Oberon let his Children have any involvement in the outside world after the Gathering?

Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]

One or two more thoughts connected to "Hunter's Moon", including the hunting theme.

As I've mentioned in the past, most of the motives for hunting have gotten into the series as the cause for humans going after gargoyles: sport (the Pack), the belief that they're vermin which should be exterminated (too many human characters to mention), revenge (the Hunters, especially Gillecomgain and the Canmores) - admittedly something that probably happens more often in fiction (cf. Captain Ahab) than in real life, or putting them to some use for profit (Xanatos) - the real-life version of which would be hunting animals for their body parts (like the motives of the panther-poachers in "Mark of the Panther"). The one motive missing from the list is food, apart from a couple of lines in "Upgrade" (like Hyena wondering if gargoyles taste like chicken). Its near-absence is understandable; I suspect that wanting to eat the gargoyles would be too disturbing (of course, the ones who might try it - the Pack - strike me as crazy enough to do so) - at least, to the audience. (The public doesn't see the gargoyles as intelligent beings, of course, but as weird beasts - however, I think most of them consider the gargoyles too monstrous for the dinner table.)

I wonder whether the gargoyles might have a clash with the Wild Hunt from legend, to continue the hunting theme. Though it wouldn't have as much resonance, I think, as the battle with the Hunters. The Hunters were humans (the gargoyles No. 1 enemy) driven by long hatred of gargoyles (particularly linked to Demona's own war on humanity); the Wild Hunt would most likely be more members of the Third Race, who don't have the same level of ancient hostility with the gargoyles. (Though some takes on the Wild Hunt make its members ghosts being punished for their sins when they were living humans, rather than faerie-like beings by nature. Of course, in such an interpretation, the Wild Hunt would have to be handled in a different style than Hakon's ghost.)

No sign of Bronx at the Festivus table )well, beside it rather than at it). Did Goliath have nothing to say to him about the Amish boy and the two anonymous goons? Or did he believe that Bronx wouldn't comprehend his words of rebuke?

Todd Jensen

"The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Greg B> Not while he's still got that pole and no one else has pinned him yet.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

"...though it might be served at it."

Ask Frank Costanza.

Greg Bishansky


Dang, Todd, you really powered through the whole series. Respect!

"Of course, we all wear costumes." ~Double Trouble

<double checks>

Yep, perfect sixth once again. Festivus is never spam!

...though it might be served at it.

Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!


Now, my thoughts on "Hunter's Moon", which I rewatched on DVD yesterday.

During my "silver anniversary" rewatch of "Gargoyles", I noticed (and remarked on it) how, often when humans were going after gargoyles, it was described as "hunting" - things like the Pack's first clash with the gargoyles (Wolf even shouts "Let the hunt begin!", and of course, the episode was titled "The Thrill of the Hunt"), Xanatos twice tells Goliath that the human inhabitants of New York will be hunting him and his fellow gargoyles - specifically using those words on both occasions, Bruno in "Awakening Part Four" tells the wounded Goliath "Once you're gone, we'll hunt down those others like you", even the Macbeth-robot in "The Price" claiming to be after the gargoyles for "trophies", the traditional prize of a successful hunter. (We even occasionally got mentions of hunting outside that context, such as Oberon's pursuit of Goliath, Angela, and Gabriel in "Ill Met By Moonlight", or the Panther Queen and Fara Maku hunting for Anansi in "Mark of the Panther", alongside the panther poachers.) With this recurring theme, it now seems so appropriate that the final episodes of the "Disney Afternoon" version of "Gargoyles" would pit the gargoyles against enemies called "the Hunters". (The Hunters had been introduced in "City of Stone", but here they didn't clash with Goliath and his clan, but only with Demona and her gargoyle followers in the 11th century; Macbeth, the one modern-day Hunter in that story, had removed his mask by the time Goliath confronted him. Now they become the Manhattan clan's antagonists.)

And what antagonists! They actually do more damage to the clan than their regular enemies, even Xanatos and Demona. First, they blow up the clock tower, destroying the gargoyles' home. This blow is softened by the gargoyles getting a new home by the end of the episode - and their original home, the castle, at that - but that's followed up by their exposing the gargoyles' existence to the public, permanently, resulting in a frightened mob coming after the clan, with consequences that will extend past this story (and, returning to the theme from the previous paragraph, Fox describes those in this story as "the whole city will be *hunting* them now", emphasis mine). It tops all the gargoyles' clashes with adversaries since they awakened in New York. To find something that dealt a heavier blow to them, you'd have to go back to 994 and the Wyvern Massacre. In terms of what they accomplished, the Hunters have to be the gargoyles' most formidable foes.

PART ONE: Elisa actually speaks to Goliath, and they hug for a moment, just after foiling the robbery on the subway. In front of all those passengers (Brendan and Margot, Billy and Susan's mother, Art and Lois, etc.). Apparently none of them noticed it.

When the gargoyles return to the clock tower, Hudson says to them "Welcome back lads" - then adds, after a look from Angela "And lassie, of course." Ties in with my note that he addressed the younger gargoyles in "Possession" as just "lads", as if he's still adjusting to Angela as a member of the clan, but this time he corrects his mistake.

Elisa tells Jason that protecting the city "isn't just a job; it's a way of life". While she probably thought that all along anyway, given what a dedicated police officer she is, I'm certain that she was also thinking of the gargoyles when she said it.

Elisa and Jason's "Bonnie and Clyde" remarks feel ironic, given that they (or Elisa, since Jason was just pretending to be a police detective) are on the opposite side of the law from those two.

The trio's confrontation with Demona outside the warehouse is apparently the last big "trio moment" (well, they do have Bronx with them), after that, we don't see the trio together by just themselves. Indeed, in "The Journey", we'll see how they're starting to split up - friends still, but no longer the gargoyle counterpart of the Three Musketeers (or, on such occasions as the kitchen scene in "Awakening Part Three" or in much of "Turf", the Three Stooges).

I still really like the Hunters' robot falcon (called "Raptor" in the ending credits), and think it's a pity we don't get to see it past Part One.

On the scene where after Brooklyn inadvertently sets the warehouse on fire, asks "So who's going to explain this to Goliath?", and Lexington and Broadway promptly point at him - I wish they'd had Bronx stare accusingly at Brooklyn as well. (It provides a nice bit of comic relief for the darker moments to come - Angela badly wounded, with the threat of possible death, and Goliath vowing vengeance, explicitly intending to kill the Hunters.)

On Demona's theft of the Medici Tablet: the Medici family were driven out of Florence in 1494, the year before she stole the Tablet. Evidently they didn't take it with them. (I looked up about the Medicis and learned that a Florentine mob sacked their palace after they fled; presumably the building Demona broke into was a different Medici residence that the Florentines missed. It certainly looked intact to me.)

I had a new thought on how, when Goliath returns to the clock tower after the battle on board the Hunters' airship, Lexington and Brooklyn are looking at each other with troubled expressions. While I'd seen that before as just a response to Goliath's vengeful anger, this struck me: the audience knows that Robyn and Jon survived the fight, but the gargoyles don't know that. From Brooklyn and Lex's perspective, Goliath had just killed those two.

The Canmores all discuss the fact that the other gargoyles might be able to become human in the daytime like Demona and escape detection that way - a recipe for paranoia indeed. And Jon presumably remembers that possibility after he became Castaway. I suspect he'll keep those thoughts to himself, though. For one thing, it might be straining what his audience would be ready to accept - that gargoyles exist, they now know to be a fact, but magic that can change a gargoyle into a human, most of them would see that as a lot more far-fetched. Also, I suspect Castaway's aware of the problems that could ensue if the "Chaz-and-Lou"-type members of the Quarrymen believed him....

I wonder if Demona's secret compartment for the Praying Gargoyle survived the fire at Notre Dame Cathedral earlier this year. She'd probably be fuming at the humans over that fire if it did, though I suspect she chose a New York location for the Praying Gargoyle's crystal to "recharge" this time, as simpler.

One of the most moving moments in Part Three: Robyn telling her younger brother after Jason's apparent death, "Jon, I don't want to lose you too". Throughout most of this story, Robyn's been the calmest and most business-like of the Hunters, in contrast to Jason's fury towards the gargoyles and Jon's wavering doubts (wavering because he keeps giving in to his siblings). It's a testimony to how shocked she is over one brother's seeming death and the other's starting to descend into madness.

As the clan head off to St. Damien's Cathedral, we see an architectural gargoyle (or grotesque) on a ledge (and I noticed a few more on the cathedral's roof). I tried keeping track of the architectural gargoyles in the series, but at last gave it up; still, I noticed these in the final syndicated television episode.

Robyn calls Angela "Demonspawn" - probably an apt term in light of who her biological mother is, though still not an accurate description of her otherwise.

Jon shows just how much he's sinking into madness when he tells Jason, after their stands on the gargoyles have switched, "They killed dad!" Of course (and he knows this, since he was there, remember) it wasn't the Manhattan clan who killed Charles Canmore (they were all under the Magus's spell at the time, except for Angela who was on Avalon), but Demona. In such a state of mind, it's no surprise that he'll blame the gargoyles for what happened to Jason shortly afterwards.

Lexington echoes "The Mirror" when he describes being back in the castle again as "Weird, kind of cool, but weird".

Broadway shows just how much he's changed in his attitudes towards reading since the start of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" when he's even more enthusiastic about the castle's library than its kitchen. (And we'll see him and Angela together in that library in "The Journey".)

In many ways, "Hunter's Moon" could have made a good series finale (in a sense, it is) as well as a good season finale, with so much resolved. The gargoyles are back in the castle again. Their war with Xanatos is (apparently) over. They've defeated Demona's big scheme to wipe out humanity (the first scheme in the series that actually could have wiped out the entire human race - up until then, her "wipe-out-humanity" schemes only threatened the humans of Manhattan; though some cynical viewers might have argued that, since Demona's scheme was designed to get rid of "all intelligent life", it wouldn't have wiped out all the humans). Elisa's finally admitted her feelings for Goliath (something she'd been avoiding for so long) and even kissed him. Now, the story needn't stop here; many of these seeming conclusions still have room for new developments (does Xanatos really mean it about having made peace with the gargoyles, given his record? what happens now that Elisa's confessed her love for Goliath?), but it still makes a good ending-point, and we could always argue that the answers to these questions are best left to the audience's imagination, except....

There's one big loose end - the gargoyles' secret is out. The public knows that they exist, and are upset and frightened about it. And that hasn't been resolved by the end of the episode. The script takes care to steer away from it in case they didn't get a Season Three; the last two scenes (Elisa visiting Jason at the hospital and the gargoyles' return to the castle) don't mention it, thus allowing the audience to half-forget about it. (Elisa also mentions that Demona and Jon are out there "hunting each other" - that line could allow us to assume, if there wasn't a third season, that Demona and Jon Canmore are too busy hunting each other to go after the gargoyles, and maybe even that their hunt will carry them away from Manhattan.) But it means that there's room for a third season. (How many viewers, I wonder, gave any thought to the "gargoyles have been revealed to the world" business between the first airing of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" and the first airing of "The Journey"?) There were other loose ends (we hear nothing more of the Illuminati after episode No. 28, "Revelations"), but most of these were minor ones - maybe better-suited for spin-offs like "Pendragon" to answer, while this one's definitely a major one.

That marks the end of the "Disney Afternoon" version of "Gargoyles". I'll get to the SLG comics later on, after catching my breath. I've one or two other things to say about the series as a whole, but those will wait for a later post.

Oh, and one other thing. I counted all the "clawmark-transition moments" in the first two seasons. There were twenty-eight.

Todd Jensen

Hi Mr. Weisman. I have a question for you:

I don't know if you are aware, but in the "Early Warning" episode of Whelmed: The Young Justice Files the host quoted you on something you told him in conversation. This is something that used to happen now and then, but lately it happens in almost every episode: "Greg texted me this", "Brandon emailed me that", "Greg/Brandon told me whatever", etc.

So, looking at your 2-year backlog of 2000 questions, I'm wondering: why are you giving BTS information to this one person while the rest of your fanbase has to submit questions and wait months (at least) or YEARS (worst case and more likely scenario) for an answer???? It must be really cool to be so intimate and chummy with one's idol, and I bet the host feels super important and validated, but this is some double standard bullshit!

Are you aware of this? And if you are, how can you be okay with it? Don't you think this is unfair? You have thousands of fans who support your work whichever way they can, but 99.9% of them have never even met you in person, let alone exchanged emails or text messages with you.

If I make an entire podcast dedicated to kissing your asses, will I earn the same privileges? Will I be able to ask all my questions without a waiting queue? Will I get to hang out with you, have lunch together or exchange personal contacts?

(Originally I posted this on AskGreg, but then I decided I shouldn't have to wait 2 years for an answer, for all the reasons above.)


Today is the most important holiday of the year.

Even the Gargoyles celebrate Festivus.


Greg Bishansky

(3rd)Third Forever!!!
Vinnie - [thomaspeano at yahoo dot com]
Deplorable and loving it!

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Well with Todd wrapping up Gargoyles soon I think I might do the same thing with "Spectacular Spider-Man."
Insert Inspirational Quote Here:________