A Station Eight Fan Web Site


The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending April 25, 2021

Index : Show Images

I forgot to mention it, but I also liked the quote (which I'd forgotten about until I read it here) which had a bit of fun again about the inappropriateness of "Speedy" being an alias of an archery-specialist rather than a super-speed-specialist (which was brought up all the way back in the first episode).
Todd Jensen

Today is Shakespeare's (traditional) birthday, one of the people who contributed to "Gargoyles" - if unaware that he was doing just that. (I remember Greg Weisman speculating at the 2001 Gathering that if they'd gotten to make the "Weird Macbeth" episode, Shakespeare would have gotten the chief byline, alongside "with additional dialogue by ["Gargoyles" scriptwriters]. That story still ranks high on the unmade but mentioned "Gargoyles" stories I'd most like to see.)
Todd Jensen

I don't know what Central City's equivalent for the Gateway Arch is, but this is indeed the episode where it was destroyed because of Neutron going critical.
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

While we're on the subject, was "Bloodlines" also the episode which saw that monument that looked a lot like the Gateway Arch in St. Louis destroyed, or was that a different episode? I know that that arch was destroyed in one of the Season Two episodes, and my memories connected it with that episode, but I'm not certain if that's the case.
Todd Jensen

Thanks Todd, I'll have to take your word for it as I never really watched much Doctor Who.
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew. This is one of the episodes I remember fairly well - including the part you quoted about "Does he say that often?" EVERYONE ELSE (in unison): "Too often". (One of my favorite funny moments in "Young Justice".) And Red Arrow's concern at how much his infant daughter is enjoying the violence....

Impulse's repeated "Spoilers" line evokes River Song from "Doctor Who", though I don't know if that was intended as a hommage or not.

After so much "Time travelers don't change the past, because they were already there" in "Gargoyles", we now get different rules for time travel in "Young Justice", where Impulse *can* change the past - though not enough....

Todd Jensen

It's a regular family reunion.

Watched "Bloodlines" today which wraps up one arc and introduces a brand new and big one. The search for the original Roy Harper actually brings to mind the search for Red Tornado in "Humanity". That the heroes with all their resources and intellect still run into the same problem as approaching the search as heroes rather than the criminals they're supposed to also be pursuing. That's why it requires some outside-the-box thinking and why Cheshire is so integral for the search, she knows the nooks and crannies the good guys overlook. We'll soon see how the presence of the original Roy will shape things to come but for now Red Arrow finally has some closure on the matter.

The big point of the episode is the arrival of Impulse aka, Bart Allen grandson to Barry Allen. You know, not too long ago we had the big shocker with the timeskip and the sea change to the Team. And now we're getting time-travel too? In the hands of a lesser writer all these plot points would pile up into a incoherent mess, like the show was just throwing everything at the wall and hoping it stuck. I once wrote that the arrival of characters like Captain Marvel and Zatanna really changed the Team dynamic and we're getting another big one here. For starters, ever since Wally retired the Team has been working without a speedster and now one has just dropped into their laps. And more to the point, he's a speedster who's undoubtedly faster than Wally and can keep pace with the Flash in both speed and speech. Season 1 really leaned into the angst Superboy felt in that Superman was everything he wasn't and now we have that in the form of Barry's grandson. The tie-in comics made it a point that Wally felt a lot of hidden angst over the fact that he wasn't as fast as his uncle so Bart's arrival quite possibly opened up some old wounds. Unlike his own venture in superheroing, there's no arguments or denial coming from the mentor who let's Bart join up with little to no fuss. We see twinges of annoyance coming from Wally and not just because of Impulse's general hyperactive attitude but because he also isn't very tactful in his "I can do everything you can do but better" approach. Heck, if Wally was still operating as Kid Flash I wouldn't be surprised if it turned into full on resentment not unlike what Artemis went through when Red Arrow joined the Team. That the Team needed a "real speedster" and the Flash finally gets the partner he deserves.

We get a couple of big hints for the future here, for starters there's the alien data Nightwing goes over and the hint of the "Meta-Gene". We had seen that the Kroloteans had been abducting humans for reasons related to this and they had made mention of Metas when referring to the heroes. Here we get our first sign of it and how it shapes not only season 2 but beyond that as well. The second is that Impulse doesn't come from an idealized world he spun but from a frankly hellish landscape and saving his grandfather is only part of the job. Now this and the fact that we see only minor changes can lock a story into what I call "The Prophecy Problem". When a story makes reference to a future event or prophecy this can have the consequence on the story being locked into "how does point A eventually lead into point B" and if it isn't done well the whole thing becomes contrived. And then there's fact that said prophecy can easily divert all of the audience's attention which leads to speculation, and can lead to dissatisfaction if not done well. We see at the end of the episode that the future has changed, but to what degree still remains a mystery...

Some Final Thoughts: I spoke before how the Flash universe really emphasizes a more grounded, all-American approach to superheroes and we really get to see that as we have four generations of speedsters in one episode. I still don't think we've had anything close to that in any other show. We also see more of the machinations of the Light's unseen partner. Unlike before we also hear them in their distinctly inhuman language and just like the Kroloteans, they also have an interest in Earth's Meta-Gene. And that's not even getting into the fact that a lot of Impulse's future slang is used by them in the present. And finally, we see that Impulse immediately latches onto the Flash family because he wants to prevent Flash's death at the hands of Neutron, but who else missed who he was also looking for when he first arrived?

Acting MVP: Jason Marsden makes a strong first impression playing the hyperactive, happy-go-lucky Bart Allen who also shows just how serious he can be when there's no one he has to lie to.

DC Profiles: Like Cheshire, Neutron is an example of adaptational heroism. A foe of Superman, Nathaniel Tyron is a being of pure nuclear energy who engages in mass destruction and death for the heck of it.

Favorite Lines:

Nightwing: Apparently the Kroloteans were snatching humans to use as...guinea pigs. They were hoping to find something. Something inside us.
Robin: What?
Nightwing: There's no English word for it. The nearest translation is... "Meta-Gene."
Robin: What's a meta-gene?
Beast Boy: Never met-a-gene I didn't like.

Nightwing: Well, Bart. Coming all the way from the future, you must have worked up quite a thirst.
[Gives him a glass of water]
Impulse: Thanks. [drinks then pauses] Ah, you're trying to get a DNA sample. You need my spit. [spits water out] Hah, that's such a Dick Grayson thing to do!
Robin: How did-?
Impulse: See? I know stuff only a future boy would know. Dick Grayson,Tim Drake, Garfield Logan.
Beast Boy: Your name is Tim? And yours is...Dick?
Impulse: Oops! Spoilers. This secret identity thing is so retro.

Beast Boy: Don't worry, the peregrine falcon is the world's fasted bird. He won't get away. [shapeshifts and flies after Impulse]
Robin: Doesn't stand a chance does he?

Jay Garrick: Uh, Barry? Something you've been meaning to tell us?
Barry Allen: What? No! This kid is not my grandson. From the future or any-uh-when. Heck! Iris and I don't have any kids.
Iris West-Allen: Um, Barry?
Barry Allen: What?
Iris West-Allen: I'm pregnant.
Barry Allen: What?
Iris West-Allen: I just found out this morning. I was going to tell you tonight...in private.
Impulse: Hi dad. Hi Aunt Dawn.
Barry Allen: Wait! There are two in there?
Iris West-Allen: We're having twins?!
Impulse: Oops! Spoilers.

The Flash: I'll be back in a flash.
Impulse: "Back in a flash". Wow. Does he say that often?
All: Too often.

Kid Flash: Keep your men back, Captain.
Cop: Protecting the city is what they pay me for, Speedy.
Impulse: No, Speedy's the other guy. Though history books are really unclear on the why.

Red Arrow: Should I be concerned over the obvious delight our daughter takes in the ultra-violence?
Cheshire: It's genetic.
Red Arrow: Great.

Nathaniel: How's it coming?
Bart Allen: Almost finished.
Nathaniel: Wish I could go along.
Bart Allen: Sorry, only seats one.
Nathaniel: You understand the trip to the past will fry the machine's circuitry. This is a one-way ticket.
Bart Allen: Does this look like a future worth returning to?
[the captions inform that the blighted area is the ruins of Mount Justice, forty years later]
Bart Allen: Well, I'd better get in character, Neutron.
Nathaniel: Please don't use that name. I was Neutron for too many years, through too much destruction. Curing me and saving Flash's life, you know, that's only the beginning.
Bart Allen: I know Nathaniel. Big mission, lots to do. Better get to it.
[Bart enters the time machine which disappears in a flash and Nathaniel finds himself minus a inhibitor collar, his orange jumpsuit now white and his face unscarred]
Nathaniel: That kid is so crash! He did it. It's a new-day? [Nathaniel looks to see that though ash has stopped falling from the sky, Mount Justice is still in ruins] No. It should have all changed, all at once. The mode, should have crashed. Should have all crashed.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

With "Gargoyles NECA action figures" added to the "Coming Soon" main page of GargWiki, I wonder if we should add that cooperative board game that was announced a few weeks back as well.
Todd Jensen

So I checked the update to the Young Justice article on Gargwiki cause it was update with news on the second trade coming out and it looks like despite Amazon not mentioning such that Torch Song is going to be included in physical form.

Even more glad I pre-ordered it.


BISHANSKY - Very true.
Todd Jensen

TODD> I imagine that Goliath would be revolted by every aspect of the KKK.
Greg Bishansky
""When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)" -Matt

A thought I recently had (partly inspired by the mention that the Ku Klux Klan were a part-original for the Quarrymen). Does anybody else here suspect that, when Goliath first learned about the KKK, he was revolted that an organization like that would call itself a "clan" (if with a slightly different spelling), just as he was outraged by Dracon's extortion racket being called "protection"?
Todd Jensen

I get what you mean about the missing-kids subplot potentially being an in for a character other than Jaime - no reason it couldn't have been Cassie and her missing friend Kiran Singh, or something like that - but I do like that Ty's disappearance gives Jaime a personal stake in the conflict (so that when Ty is rescued, but they find out about the Reach invasion, it's an escalation of investment for him and not the first time it's personally relevant to him), and because it adds a layer to the interactions with mode!Jaime in Runaways.

Rainwater really does a good job as Tye, though. From a character standpoint I'd accept that he wouldn't want to join up as an Outsider or Team member, but I hope we get to see him hanging out around the Taos center in s4.

Interesting bit of trivia about Cassie - apparently (per the Reddit AMA), if she ever has kids, they'd be the start of a new metagene line. The exact mechanics of the metagene are of course left vague (for the best, really - I've already gotten a headache trying to figure out how a mitochondrial marker tracer for the metagene would work when the metagene can be passed down through either parent) but I am really interested in the idea that magic- or god-derived powers are closely related to the metagene, or even part of a greater whole we're only seeing different bits of.

Karrin Blue

DC tends to be a bit inconsistent with how they portray the Olympians. One moment Hera is a proud patron of the Amazons, the next she's nuking all of Themyscira because of Zeus' affairs.

And that was before the New 52 reboot.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

MATTHEW - In which case, Wonder Girl would be well-advised to hope that Hera never shows up....
Todd Jensen

Thanks Todd, and yes, Greg has confirmed that she is the daughter of Zeus in this series.

Now whether Nightwing remembered, well looking at the members chosen: M'gann has only ever shown interest in guys, Bumblebee has been in a relationship with Mal since high school, and he and Batgirl have a "friends with benefits" relationship.
But then the mission itself was more on recon rather than confrontation. Which is something I forgot to mention, how it calls back to "Drop Zone" and how our heroes adapt to complications.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Wonder if Nightwing* forgot that Queen Bee could control some women or if he was confident all the ones in company would be immune to her.

*Almost came out as nightingale due to auto correct. Works when you don't want it to and is inactive when you want it to function. Kind of like a political tool:-D.


MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review. The exchange between Nightwing and Batgirl you mentioned in the quotes was one of the chief parts I remembered from this episode.

So (at least in the comics) Wonder Girl is Zeus's daughter? That certainly seems appropriate given Wonder Woman's own links to Greek mythology (and it struck me as also fitting that her civilian first name is Cassandra).

Todd Jensen

Oh I certainly knew that, I was just waiting until later to bring that up.
Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Matthew> Besides being another Gargoyles alumni, Rainwater basically reprised a character he did from Justice League Unlimited even if the character was drastically different.

Troubles at home, troubles afar.

Watched "Beneath" today which focuses on two major points, the all girl Alpha Squad's recon into Qurac and Jaime's search for his missing friend Tye. For the former plot point, this is continuing the search for the alien bomb and by sheer coincidence it leads into the latter. As I mentioned in the first episode that with the restructuring of the story, several characters won't get quite the focus that the others did in season 1. Here we get a bit of focus on Wondergirl; her interaction with her mentor pretty much spelled out a good portion of her character "A little less fangirl, a little more Wonder Girl." I find it interesting that the muscles of the Team like Superboy and Lagoon Boy are quick to anger and pretty gung-ho in a fight (at least at first), but with Wonder Girl her attitude is less about her temper and more on her excitability and eagerness. In a way she's contains a little bit of both early M'gann and Wally, impulsive and eager to please which isn't exactly the best thing for a stealth mission. And like Superboy she still has some things to learn about fighting smarter rather than harder and using her powers intelligently. Like making sure that you're not casting a shadow while flying over an enemy base. At the same, I like that while her enthusiasm can cause troubles her strong desire to help and willingness to fix things are treated as positives. And when a fight does occur she really is who you'd want on your side, showing some Amazon skill with demigod power. It was around the time when she ripped off two giant hangar doors at once with a bit of effort that I realized she's probably the strongest of all the youthful heroes thus far.

The other big plot point comes from Jaime's search for his friend Tye who has run away from a troubled home life. As I stated last episode, we're seeing that Jaime is the one taking the lead role this season, though the reason for that has yet to be revealed. On the one hand, I feel that there are other characters that could've filled the role set here. Searching for one of the missing children by way of their secret identity, and it could help flesh out one of the other characters that doesn't get the lion's share of screen time Jaime does. On the other hand, there are hints of an unseen spiritual journey for both Jaime and Tye as alluded to by Mr. Longshadow. Though it's left ambiguous on whether he secretly knows something or whether he's just waxing philosophic.

And the major point is the that Jaime's search brings him into conflict with Mrs. Longshadow's boyfriend Maurice, who is abusive in all but name. Well...look. I try to avoid bringing in real life references, especially with the actors or writers, when I write about these episodes but it can't be avoided here. Mrs. Longshadow's actress Irene Bedard was allegedly the victim of domestic violence in 2012, and the alleged perpetrator of domestic violence just last year. As much as I'd like to praise the episode for displaying a subtle, yet realistic depiction of domestic violence, the real world connotations make it pretty uncomfortable. But even without the issue with the actors the uncomfortable nature of this still shines through. And unfortunately, the issue of domestic violence and kidnapped children will be explored again and in greater detail...

Some Final Thoughts: We get some Gargoyles alumni here as Gregg Rainwater and Michael Horse make an appearance, and with the addition of Robert Beltran it does remind me how glad I am that Greg works to get authentic Native Americans for the roles. Especially considering how few opportunities there are for Native American actors. During the mission briefing we see that Nightwing is displaying a map of Bialya but the Team itself is entering Qurac, I know Greg confirmed this was an error but considering the former annexed the latter it is darkly appropriate.

We see this episode that Psimon has recovered from M'gann's brain blast and what's more, he's adapted her use of a telepathic uplink to communicate with his team, not very often do you see the bad guys adopt the heroes' tactic. The big revelation is that the Light is kidnapping kids for their new partner which brings another mystery into the fold. But what's easily overlooked this episode is the mysterious ruins the Team discover. And what's even more easily overlooked is the giant scarab symbol on the walls...

Acting MVP: Mae Whitman is a delight as Wonder Girl and I have to give props to Gregg Rainwater, guy was in his late 40's when this episode aired and he still managed to sound like a teenager. But I have to give credit to Robert Beltran, in an episode full of supervillains, this ordinary guy manages to bring the most menace of all.

DC Profiles: Devastation is in many ways, a dark reflection of Wonder Woman. While Wonder Woman is sometimes written as a flesh and blood golem given life and powers by the Greek gods. Devastation is a flesh and blood golem empowered by Cronus and the Titans. Notably, she's much shorter in the comics.

Cassandra Sandsmark is the third person to bear the mantle of Wonder Girl (if you count Wonder Woman's time). She's the daughter of archeologist Helena Sandsmark (who appeared in the video game) and Zeus himself. As a demigod she possesses incredible power and the Lasso of Lightning. She was also a mainstay of the Young Justice team and was in relationships with both Tim Drake and Superboy.

Favorite Lines:

Scarab: Your concern for this Tye is trivial. Our armor is intended for greater purpose.
Blue Beetle: I'm trying to stop a friend from making a massive mistake. What greater purpose is there?

Nightwing: Queen Bee is another story. Her ability to the control the minds of men is why Alpha is an all female squad for this mission.
Batgirl: Oh really? And would you have felt the need to justify an all male squad for a given mission?
Nightwing: Uhh... there, there's no right answer for that, uh, is there? So... Nightwing out.
Batgirl: Queen Bee isn't the only woman who can mess with a man's mind.

Mrs. Longshadow: Don't mind Maurice, he's having a bad day.
Jaime: I hear he has a lot of bad days.
Mrs. Longshadow: Good ones too. Occasionally.

Miss Martian: Batgirl, take the north hangar. I'll take the south. Bee, the middle. Wonder Girl, hold position.
Wonder Girl: What? Wait, why can't I go in?
Bumblebee: 'Cause you're Wonder Girl, honey. Not Stealth-er Girl.

[Jaime hands Holling Longshadow a glass of water]
Jaime: Here you go Mr. Longshadow.
Holling: Thank you Jaime.
Jaime: So, have you seen Tye?
Holling: Aah. Not in a few weeks. But I wouldn't worry. You see, Tye comes from a long line of Mescalero Apache chiefs. I believe he has begun a journey of awakening that will connect him to his heritage. And show him the path to his destiny.
Scarab: This Holling Longshadow appears imbalanced. Our time is wasted here. We should interrogate The Maurice with extreme prejudice.
Jaime Reyes: Uh, Wow. Um, that's something. But I was thinking Tye's mom's boyfriend Maurice might have-
Holling: Aah. Oh, Maurice. Years ago, he was jealous of Tye's father's role as head of our band. Now, he's jealous of Tye. But he's just a distraction. He plays no part in Tye's vision quest. Or yours, for that matter.
Jaime Reyes: Mine?
Holling: You search for answers. But the answers you seek will find you. Only then you will make peace with the one inside you.
Scarab: He knows too much! Eliminate him!
Jaime Reyes: Uh, thank you, Mr. Longshadow. I'll let you know when I find Tye. Enjoy your, uh, water.

Bumblebee: Girl, you look like turkey stuffing on Thanksgiving.
Batgirl: Thank you, that's very helpful.

Bumblebee: Can you say Temple of Doom?

Wonder Girl: It's been too long. Something happened to Batgirl and Bee and it's all my fault for getting spotted.
Miss Martian: Cassie, calm down. Every mission takes an unexpected turn. We recover and adapt. That's rule one.

Bumblebee: Sorry girl. We have got a cargo plane full of abductees here and you're the only one qualified to fly it to safety. Which is ironic since you're the only one on Alpha who can't fly.
Batgirl: Yeah. Ironic.

Devastation: Do you really think you stand a chance, Blondie? I've gone toe-to-toe with the actual Wonder Woman.
Wonder Girl: Yeah, but you never trained with her!

Nightwing: So if the Bialyans weren't kidnapping humans for the Kroloteans, then who is this partner?
Wonder Girl: Another unanswered question.
Nightwing: New questions keep the investigation moving forward. You saved lives, and you got each other home safe. It's a successful mission in my book.

Remember, young or old, rich or poor, friend or foe. We're all in this together.

Just cause I want to get this out, in One weekend I did those Two articles I mentioned:

- https://gargwiki.net/DuckTales
- https://gargwiki.net/Bonkers