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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 20, 2021

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Todd Jensen> Yeah if only they had access to magic to get around the issue. Oh wait:-D.

ANTIYONDER - It would probably be biologically difficult.
Todd Jensen

Not sure if Weisman watched much of The Flash, but [SPOILER] if he could come up with a musical, wondering if he and the crew might come up with their own take of "I'm Your Superfriend":-D [/SPOILER].

Todd Jensen> I'm not sure where, but I recall hearing that in Amphibia there are no mixed citizens. All are just pure toads, frogs and newts.


Karrin> I remember an episode of Rob Paulsen's podcast where he and his guest (don't remember which one) talked about how it's important to be able to sing in character. And considering how musicals are becoming more common in animation, I'd say it was even more important.

Ah yes, The Pied Piper. His musical abilities are entirely his own but it was a plot point in Countdown to Final Crisis that his musical abilities could channel the Anti-Life Equation. But the good Piper decided against that, killed Desaad, and then destroyed the malevolent satellite Brother Eye with a rendition of Queen's "The Show Must Go On."

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

ANTIYONDER - I doubt that [SPOILER] Hop Pop would have been too happy with his picture on the cover of a book about toads, as opposed to frogs [/SPOILER].
Todd Jensen

Jesse McCartney definitely has the most notable musical career, but the others aren't slouches - Zehra Fazal just tweeted her 8-section cover of an Utena dueling song, and my understanding is that most VAs learn to sing during normal vocal training and practice.

I'm still holding out hope for a Music Meister appearance - and, if I understand the lore right, one of the Flash's villains got his powers from a musical understanding of the Anti-Life Equation.

I didn't think much of Torch Songs the first time I read it, but I noticed a lot more on a reread. In particular, I like that Gar brings up that Conner doesn't have to forgive M'gann - he gets to set his boundaries where he wants - but he has to choose where they are and be clear about them. I think that's a good way to thread the needle - and the song is pretty great too. One of my favorite explanations for musicals and musical writing is that, when your emotions are too strong to speak, you sing, and when they're too strong to sing, you dance - well, M'gann doesn't get to the second part, but I'm pretty much always going to like a plot where that comes into play.

Karrin Blue

So watching the new Owl House episode Escaping Expulsion via Charter On Demand.

While not a Gargoyles reference, Willow's book "Lifestyle of the Common Swamp Toad" has a pic of sorts of [SPOILER] Hop Pop. [/SPOILER]


Antiyonder: Since the emblem of the House of Cavendish is a white unicorn, I would think it'd have to be that. Except that Diana herself would have to be a unicorn, so that'd be...weird. Maybe Beatrix's hat?

FTBM: Sounds like the edited version that ran on Toon Disney for a while (which, as stated previously, were the versions I grew up on).

The uncut version of the scene can be found in two places:

1) Streaming on Disney+
2) On the "Season 2, Volume 2" DVD set

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

I am not a regular commenter here but came in for a specific request...which might be slightly appropriate given the convo....I remember the show when it first came out and recently bought the whole thing on amazon prime. Couldn't help but notice some stuff was...different from my memories.

I am specifically looking for the whole scene when Petros Xanatos shot Oberon with the harpoon in the Gathering (think part 2). That's cut from the series now. I want the full gloriousness of a "poor Greek immigrant fisherman from Maine" giving the Ruler of the Third Race and Avalon the biggest what-for he's gotten in probably centuries.

Does anyone have an original of that scene they know is uploaded anywhere? doesnt seem to be on youtube at the moment.

FTBM - [fearthebunnyman at gmail dot com]

So I rewatched The Batman on HBO Max a few weeks ago. Even if it didn't have a clear identity and took more than a season to be actually good, I enjoyed it.

Fun tidbit is that the Season 5's "The Batman/Superman Story" two parter shared premiere dates with the Legion of Superheroes' Season 2 premiere "Man From the Edge of Tomorrow" which introduced Superman-X (some talk is that he was a variation on Daxamite and Legionaire Lar Gand/Mon-El). Part 2 of the LOSH premiere was as a reminder written by Weisman, but what makes it funny is a bit where Supes himself tell X about having a friend back home who wasn't always a team player.

That being Batman. On the flipside, The Batman as of Season 5 had Bruce becoming more of a team player with it being Superman who was reluctant to join the Justice League.

Masterdramon> No clue where she is, though what do you image her Cutie Mark being?

Also an earlier post I made with a DC reference when the group was looking for Flash Magnus: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/206-comics-and-graphic-novels/79448429/955060208

Spoiler just for the reference: [SPOILER] Basically referring to the first three Flashes. [/SPOILER]


Antiyonder: In my experience with the Gargoyles fandom (at least here), I've found pretty much every fellow fan I've dealt with to be older than me. I was 3 when the show first debuted, so not exactly the target audience - I discovered and properly fell in love with it via Toon Disney reruns.

And I actually hadn't seen that page. I was keeping up with the MLP comics for a while but it just became too much at a certain point. But my favorite parts were nearly always the blatant ponified references the artists managed to throw into the backgrounds (I distinctly remember Colt!Sombra in "Fiendship is Magic" having a poster with pony versions of Eren, Mikasa, and Levi...Attack on Trotan?), so that one's very cool to see. Where Pony!Diana tho? ;)

Todd: Offhand the most dated thing in the series to me is Matt's answering machine being full in "Monsters." Even as a kid watching it for the first time (admittedly, again, this would've been around 1998-1999) I marveled at the sight, because I'd never seen an answering machine with an actual tape inside.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

I was born in '88 so I don't exactly qualify as an 80's kid. I have plenty of memories of old 80's cartoons, but from reruns they played on Cartoon Network.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Todd Jensen> Heck I still remember records and record players.

Even use to have a Mr. Roger's record as a kid.


The mention of VHS as a relic of history reminds me of the moment in "The Silver Falcon" where Broadway tells Elisa that Lexington and Brooklyn "have dibs on the VCR"; probably one of the most dated lines in "Gargoyles" now.
Todd Jensen

Masterdramon> https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/206-comics-and-graphic-novels/79448429/955180325

Wasn't sure how often you read MLP comics, but just sharing a post I did with Legends of Magic referencing Avengers and the second Akko and Sucy from LWA.


So me and Bishansky are the only 80s kids here then?

Thanks Todd, Cary and Greg have a long history of working together. Their first collaboration was when they revamped Captain Atom back in the 80's.

Masterdramon> I know some fans are still hoping the show will take advantage of Jesse McCartney's musical background. Right now the biggest songs have come from Kevin Michael Richardson and Jason Marsden.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Matthew: Tis kind of a shame that the "canon version" of YJ's only musical is relegated to a visual-only format. But I suppose True Fans(TM) can put on Musicology 101 in the background and just imagine, LOL.

Jurgan: Arguably it still qualifies for your "pattern," just from a business perspective. [I]The Batman[/B] was a fairly decent success for Kids WB (enough to order 5 seasons, at least), which would've certainly influenced the network's decision to run the demographically similar SpecSpidey a couple years later. If only that'd lasted...

Antiyonder: Come now, us 90s kids remember VHS tapes too. Used to have quite a collection. ;)

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

Ah, yes, well I remember VHS as well. $20 for a cassette with two episodes of a show.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Jurgan> Oh no. My question was asking sarcastically if any of you recall the VHS format.

Cause we're old:-D.


"As I noted last time it came up, Glorious Godfrey from the original comics was a fairly bald-faced take off of evangelist Billy Graham (and his relationship with Darkseid, seeding from Graham's advisement of Richard Nixon), whom creator Jack Kirby was...not a fan of."

Ooh, thanks for the info. I really should read New Gods, it sounds fascinating. And I can understand why Jakob Kurtzberg would have issues with Billy Graham. People are nostalgic for Graham today, since he was less overtly hateful than the populist preachers we have now, but we shouldn't let that cover up his very real flaws.

"Same with both Spider-Man shows from the era. Found out about both via VHS tapes.

You guys remember those right?:-D"

I have a theory that every Spider-Man show was made in response to a Batman show. 60's Spider-Man was campy and gadget-heavy, like the Adam West series. Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends was a team-up show with a supercomputer, like the Superfriends. And the 90's series was trying for a more serious tone, like Batman: TAS. Spectacular Spider-Man kind of breaks the streak, though by that point the Raimi movies had come out and Spider-Man was more well-known to the general public than he had been in the past.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review. I haven't read "Torch Song" (I hadn't even heard of it before it was brought up here), but the part that stood out to me the most was your mention, in the DC Profiles section, of the actor's roles including "a dashing swordsman cursed to become a gargoyle at night", and wondered what the Manhattan clan would have made of that. (And then I noticed that the graphic novel you mentioned was written by Cary Bates, who was one of the "Gargoyles" scriptwriters.
Todd Jensen

Didn't think about the Studio in question (and yeah my reading since it was due to it's first reprint is after I saw Outsiders.

Also wasn't here when the YJ series premiere was cover, but did anyone reflect on the foreshadow of what we learn about Roy (When he expresses excitement at entering The League headquarters and says "He was born for that momentc")?


I think I've seen this plot before...

Covering "Torch Songs" 1 and 2 today, and the last of the tie-in comics for the time being. Now for those who haven't read it the comic takes place a few months after the end of Season 2 and it plays a lot like Musicology 101, in fact the cross-over actually precedes the comic by nearly a year. So while the characters from other properties and the 4th Wall jokes are absent the theme of recognizing the past and working towards forgiveness remains the same.

Actually it kind of reminds me a bit of "Disordered" and how things don't just fall back into the status quo even after big emotional catharsis. We saw Conner and M'gann get back to an amicable status at the end of Season 2 but that doesn't mean their emotional baggage has been sorted out just like that. In fact I like that the coldness from Conner begins the moment Psimon is brought up, considering he was the catalyst for M'gann abusing her telepathy. And we see a large amount of meekness from her whenever her past behavior is brought up, most likely because she still feels a huge amount of guilt for what she did to Kaldur. And that's why the next big step has to come from Conner, whether he chose to forgive her or not what was needed was for him to recognize her repentant attitude. To see that she had grown from the woman she was at the beginning of Season 2, and then it becomes his choice whether he grows from that or not, and where that leads them is something they'll have to discover.

Like "Failsafe", this is another episode that brings up a lot of different psychological theories considering a lot of the story takes place in M'gann's mindscape. Psimon calls it her own insecurities, but once upon a time "Hello Megan!" was her safe space of sorts and it's interesting to see how the two intertwine. M'gann found a sense of self through the show, and yet her "Megan" image was also a way for her to hide her White Martian identity. At the same time, in "Failsafe" the other characters helped fuel the warped reality M'gann accidentally created, and here Sandra was also pulled into the dream and quite possibly did the same. There's a chance both of them were looking for an escape, M'gann going back to a time when she could just pretend to be Megan. Free from the growing burden that came with a hero, from the guilt she was feeling, from the harsh memories during her time in captivity, from the loss of friends. And Sandra? Quite possibly going back to a simpler time when things weren't so complicated, like before her divorce. But as we've seen before the conscious mind and the unconscious mind aren't always so disconnected as "Megan" sings a song of lamentation representing her conscious guilt while "Conner" recognizes that she isn't his Megan, perhaps representing her unconscious mind's need to get out of this rerun. And I think is the best metaphor for this comic's theme, until honesty and healing are brought in, you'll just be stuck replaying the same plot over and over again.

Some Final Thoughts: Having a supervillain like Psimon being given diplomatic immunity is kind of odd, but then the only episodes he's shown up in have been set in Bialya and Qurac (which is now a part of Bialya) so if he's never committed acts of villainy on US soil, there's no reason for to not have all the protections that come with being an ambassador. What's more strange is the fact that he's wandering around a convention, until you remember it's set in Goode World Studios. And we'll cover that soon enough.

What also stands out is this is where Beast Boy learns why Conner broke up with M'gann and is pretty appalled that his big sister would do that. I guess he never questioned how his big sister got that souvenir on Rann. That bit about Conner being confused on how Beast Boy can talk while transformed is kind of funny as Beast Boy could do just that in the comics. Now, I don't know what kind of movie "Dial D For Dead" would be, but I'd kill for a Michael Curtiz film that featured Claude Rains, Conrad Veidt, Sydney Greenstreet and Peter Lorre, that much talent had to have made it a classic.

DC Profiles: Jonathon Lord and Sandra Stayton both originate from the graphic novel "Silverblade" by Cary Bates. It follows the adventures of a washed-up actor from the Golden Age of Hollywood and his ex-wife after he acquires a magical artifact that allows him to transform into the characters he previously played. Including a dashing swordsman cursed to become a gargoyle at night to the Prince of Darkness himself.

Favorite Lines:

Garfield: I'm Marie Logan's son Garfield, and that's my sister Megan!
Sandra: Oh, that's wonderful. After the panel, we three really must have a sit down and chat...To begin with, I'd love to know you're painted green.

Conner: What...just...happened?
Garfield: I don't know, but it sucks!
Conner: Gar?! Why are you a frog?! And since when can you talk when you're in Beast-Mode?!
Garfield: What part of "I don't know, but it sucks!" did you not understand?!

"Mrs. Wheeler": Now, Megan, you can't fool your mother. Something's bothering you.
"Megan": Hello, Megan! I'm nervous. What if I stumble over the lyrics or choke on the melody?
"Mrs. Wheeler": Honey-Bunny, you've never been shy about trying your best and failing.
"Megan": I guess not...
"Mrs. Wheeler": And you've failed a lot.
"Megan": I suppose...
"Mrs. Wheeler": A lotta lot.
"Megan": Your point mother?
[Laugh Track]

Conner: That was amazing Megan...But I need to talk to M'gann M'orzz.
"Megan": Who?
Conner: I need to talk to my best friend. I need to tell her I don't know where we're going or what's going to happen...But that I forgive her for anything and everything. And no matter where we go or what we do or who we're with, I will always, always love her.
"Megan": Really?
Conner: Really, that is, if she can forgive me. We got so close on Mars, it scared me, and I pulled away. And I'm sorry for that.
"Megan": Conner?
Conner: Yeah"
M'gann: Let's get out of here.

Garfield: And I'm not a frog anymore!
EMT: A frog? Kid, we need to get you to a hospital for observation...

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

KARRIN BLUE - I've read the crossover too.
Todd Jensen

Having been born in 1991, my perspective on "80s toons" is necessarily going to be different than yours, LOL.

They weren't part of my childhood, and offhand, I can't think of any that I expect I'd much enjoy visiting as an adult (unless the OG "Dragon Ball" counts). My primary "nostalgia window" centers on the late 90s and early 00s.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

Algae> Oh I definitely still like OG She-Ra, just that like most 80s toons I like it ironically.

Incidentally despite being an 80s kid, never heard of it until internet.

Same with both Spider-Man shows from the era. Found out about both via VHS tapes.

You guys remember those right?:-D


I must be one of the few poor lonely souls who're big fandorks of both the Filmation and DreamWorks incarnations of She-Ra(though admittedly, for very different reasons. :P).
"You never completely have your rights, one person, until you all have your rights." -Marsha P. Johnson

I read Gotham Academy too - Olive and Maps are great leads, and I always love to see works set in a comics city, focusing on characters just on the edges of the superheroes' antics. And, serendipitously (for this conversation anyways), it had another crossover with Lumberjanes - a comic created by Noelle Stevenson, the showrunner for Netflix's She-Ra (though she didn't write the crossover herself.)
Karrin Blue

MATTHEW - I hadn't known that about "Gotham Academy" (of course, the finished version focused on a specially-created cast, set in the "present-day" part of Batman's career), though I did spot a few allusions to "Batman: TAS" in it; for example, the drama teacher was Simon Trent, the actor who'd played the Grey Ghost (and he got a great scene in it where he and Clayface were dueling each other with Shakespeare quotes). It even did a kind-of-crossover with "Batman Beyond".
Todd Jensen

Todd Jensen> While I have actually read more DC Comics since Justice League Unlimited (only read animated tie ins or crossovers with Marvel prior to), compared to say my knowledge of Spider-Man, yeah still a whole lot even just going from 38 to 99 I haven't read.

So yeah I can definitely say that YJ is easy to enjoy.

To be clear I was born in 82 and didn't really start reading books from the big two until 1998 thanks to the Marvel shows at the time.

So when I say that I find their mainline books overall to be at their best from say 38 to 99 (to 89 mostly, but found various titles from the 90s to my liking easily) flawed as it may be is not based on saying reading them as a preteen from the 80s to early 90s.

And I'm not opposed to checking out main continuity books or other titles past 99, just more careful about it cause I feel some of both companies downsides is partially because some readers will continue purchasing books they don't like just to support a character they grew up with, having a full set, staying informed and so on.

So yeah when Weisman is heavily using material from after the 90s I'm definitely going to be in the dark most of the time.


Masterdramon> Yeah and I fully admit that a lot of the old stuff I enjoy that is overhyped is guilty pleasure.

Mainly a reason why I don't believe politics ruin entertainment. Most I might concede is that a crappy piece of work that happens to be political.

Ghostbusters 2016 I'll admit isn't my cup of tea, but it's not any worse than the 5 Bayformers. Yeah sure people try to say that politics is fine if quality and talent comes first, but I don't see Megan Fox getting blasted by that crowd.:-(.

And yeah I think if OG He-Man and She-Ra were made today exactly as in the 80s they would get the same backlash that the actual modern take got.

Depends on how you take it, but Erika Scheimer on coming out and her comment on Filmation: https://web.archive.org/web/20140425054053/http://prismcomics.org/display_print.php?id=1369

So yeah going further with the LGBT themes actually compliments the original:-D.

Not to mention Superfriends. Now some have suggested in response to me mentioning it that Black Vulcan, Samurai, Apache Chief and El Dorado being made (well an expy in BV's case) is different cause they aren't race altered version like how Jimmy Olsen is in the Arrowverse or the upcoming My Adventures of Superman*.

But yeah I think it still counts and would be roasted if it was a newly made property today.

*The upcoming show where Lois is said by some to look more like Owl House's Luz.

Though Cissy Jones (Lilith) did actually voice Lois in Lego DC Super-Villains.

Though I bet Luz would see Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane as a good how to on romance if she found reprints.:-D


As I noted last time it came up, Glorious Godfrey from the original comics was a fairly bald-faced take off of evangelist Billy Graham (and his relationship with Darkseid, seeding from Graham's advisement of Richard Nixon), whom creator Jack Kirby was...not a fan of.


Really, it just goes to show that while the causes and rhetoric may differ slightly, the tactics of such men largely remains the same across the decades. The difference between televangelists and hucksters like Jones, Beck, Hannity, Carlson, etc. (and ultimately and especially, Trump himself) is one of degrees. In the end they rely on selling the same garbage message that will, unfortunately, render Kirby's vision of a planet of gods embodying hopelessness and tyranny perennially relevant: "You, my audience, are the chosen righteous, and everyone who is not like you is sinister and wicked. And the best way to combat them is to listen to my sermons/talk show/podcast, oh and incidentally give me lots and lots of money."

Antiyonder: Funnily enough (outside of a few fun mythology gags), everything I enjoy about Netflix!She-Ra is in running as far as humanly possible from its by-the-numbers, dull-as-humanly-possible OG version. I very much enjoyed watching it, particularly the last two seasons, but what I'm saying is you couldn't get me to watch any incarnation of a He-Man show if you paid me. :D

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

It's actually why I'm not too sure entertainment has changed as much as others insist.

Lex being a poke at Trump I understand was intended even as the comic version was made into a businessman after Crisis On Infinite Earths.

Biff Tannen in the alternate 1985 in BTTF 2? Based off Trump.

Or looking at say OG She-Ra. Fun, but typical 80s cheese. Yet treated as a masterpiece cause Netflix's show had a more direct implementation of LGBT characters. But apparently despite the original having gay overtones and attempting representation via a huge cast of girls/women? Netflix's version violated the spirit of it:-D.

Heck some of my recent binge watches of X-Men TAS, Time Fugitive Part 1 and 2? Hard to not think the LGBT community being blamed for aids. Even if that was the intent, being from 1992 makes it invalid to critique:-D.

Sorry, just wanted to voice this opinion for a while. Won't be a regular thing.


I'm glad you all enjoy it. I watched the first two seasons of YJ but I could never get excited about it and I can't really place why. Still, there were some parts I really liked. Probably my favorite was Tim Curry's Alex Jones inspired propagandist, a character who felt so modern that I was surprised he was a pre-existing character from the 70's. Obviously they did a lot to update him.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

"Gotham Academy" now that's an interesting one considering it's history and origin.

Back in the day, the folks at Warner Bros. really wanted to continue riding the high of Batman the Animated Series and so the executives thought "prequel" was the way to go and so pitched the idea of a teenage Bruce Wayne attending an academy filled with other teenage members of his Rogue's Gallery. That idea eventually morphed into "Batman Beyond" so it's funny that the Gotham Academy title would get printed almost twenty years later.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

My memories of Season Two of "Young Justice" are blurry, but some parts did wedge themselves well in my consciousness; Luthor calming down a vengeful Roy, Impulse's time traveler mission (and the destruction of a monument that looked a lot like the Gateway Arch in his introduction episode), some of the scenes with Kaldur and Black Manta (particularly Manta's "well done son" speech in response to Kaldur refusing to take credit for the success of a sabotage mission), G. Gordon Godrey's role, and the ending with Wally dead and the Light's new partner being revealed as Darkseid.

As I've mentioned before, one of the things I've most liked about "Young Justice" is how accessible it is to someone with only a general knowledge of DC Comics' we get told enough about the cast to know who they are, their nature and motives, etc. (The only member of the team in Season One who I knew anything about outside of the series was Robin, but that wasn't an obstacle to understanding it.)

(There's been one DC Comics series I *did* follow - "Gotham Academy"; I collected all the trade paperbacks and like it a lot. It's a sort of "weird school" series (of the Harry Potter/Gunnerkrigg Court variety) set in the Batman Universe. I've sometimes thought it'd be neat if its cast were to make a cameo in Season Four of "Young Justice"; I don't think that Olive, Maps, and the rest would work as new members of the team, but making one or two guest appearances....)

Todd Jensen

1. Yeah Dragon Quest arguably suffered most from coming out in the 90s when more polished RPGs came out over here by then. In contrast the early installments came out in Japan in the Mid to Late 80s and was the intro to the genre.

I may have gotten into it regardless, but yeah Nintendo Power magazine giving copies to subscribers is why I did get into it.

And much like the Gargoyles reference in True Colors, the DQ reference is basically cause of Marcy:-D.

2. Despite the bittersweet aspect I mentioned before, yeah I think Summit's strength especially before we got Outsiders was it and the previous episode being the last time of a more triumphant feel for the cast. Blue and Green Beetle being freed from control, Kaldur rejoining the team and their victory against the Reach and Light.

And of course Wally and Artemis' reunion, however, shortlived it is.

Seriously, what's the point of two seasons in a row without Wally West:-D. Spitfire forever indeed.

3. Don't appreciate Weisman trying to be coy with the plot for S4. Obviously it's relating to the Phantom Zone or that pulp magazine hero not even associated with DC Comics, but King Features Syndicate:-D.

Now there's a comic crossover idea. [SPOILER] Young Justice and a modern version of the teen characters from Defenders of the Earth. [/SPOILER]

Heck of all things DC is doing is a mini series crossover of video games Paperboy and Spyhunter.


"The Fix" was one of many strong contenders and Artemis was the total MVP of the episode. But I felt that the list needed at least one episode that wasn't some laden with drama.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I'm conflicted on the season 2 shakeup - on the one hand, I do ultimately prefer the interlocking character focus arcs on a core 6 from s1 to the single main arc; on the other hand, I still enjoy S2's arc and plot quite a lot. And, while I get that people felt let down by the shift to different characters and the timeskip, I still think that a show that's a series of snapshots of different months in a sprawling universe is a really cool concept, and - while it must have been very surprising at the time - shows have to be looked at as a whole.

For me, other than the ones you listed, I'd go with The Fix and Complications. I think the fix-Kaldur's-mind mini-arc is a great showcase for the characters thinking on their feet, going 'OK, I can work with this', and pulling it all together with very few resources, plus I love the looks we get at the trust between Kaldur, Artemis, and M'gann, and between Artemis and Jade.

Karrin Blue

Season 2 was a mixed bag for some, and I totally understand why. The huge shakeup to the cast, the change from character focus episodes that are part of multiple story arcs to on big arc centered around a few characters. And of course, the ending.
Still, I feel that such changes were necessary for the cast and story to grow. This isn't like other DC properties where things remain mostly the same throughout the series. Characters grow and grow up, there isn't a status quo because life doesn't have one. And though the victories from season 1 outweighed their losses, it doesn't mean the losses wouldn't affect them. So with that out of the way, here are my favorite episodes of Season 2. Once again, in chronological order.

Episode 2: "Earthlings." Our heroes have their first off-world adventure and Rann is such a great setting. Plus it's a great look into the complexities of relationships.

Episode 3: "Alienated." The controversy over the time skip is overshadowed by the controversy of Kaldur's betrayal. Besides that we get to see how Superman and Conner have improved and a great team up with heroes and sidekicks.

Episode 5: "Beneath." A nice girl's night out episode that gets to show off some of the characters don't get a lot of focus this season. Plus the subplot with Jaime gives a nice preview to the more mature storytelling to come.

Episode 7: "Depths." A fantastic fake-out that leaves the audience on edge for the whole episode. And with one line the relief that our heroes aren't traitors or dead is suddenly replaced with another sense of foreboding.

Episode 8: "Satisfaction." Crispin Freeman, Alan Tudyk and Mark Rolston really get to show their acting muscles. And Roy managing to get to Luthor and Luthor quietly dismantling Roy's vengeance was a wonder to behold.

Episode 10: "Before the Dawn." M'gann's worst trait and Dick's machinations come head to head and we find out the dark future that awaits the Earth. And the Reach make such a strong introduction.

Episode 11: "Cornered." A really fun episode after the plot heavy previous one. I love L-Ron's whole character and the heroes unorthodox tactics just for staying alive.

Episode 15: "War." I never realized how much I needed Keith David in this series before this episode. And the twist at the end was such a great WTF moment.

Episode 19: "Summit." Watching the heroes dismantle the Reach/Light alliance is so satisfying to watch. An the battle between father and son is honestly one of my favorite moments of the season.

Episode 20: "Endgame." The kind of finale that sticks with the fans, even if it's for the most heartbreaking reasons. And the last moment I think was what honestly helped get season 3 get made as fans did not want to leave it there.

But that was my list, anyone have anything else they want to add?

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Incidentally, the mention of "Hermetic" in one of the incantations (an adjective for ancient magical books and procedures, derived from the name of the Greek god Hermes) reminded me that the Grimorum Arcaonorum bore a picture of a caduceus (the symbol of Hermes) on its front cover.
Todd Jensen

Sanguinarium apparently means "Place of Bloodshed" according to the X-Files wiki (it was the name of an episode). Though it sounds like a case of dog Latin.

The spell itself was to heat a spear (Sicarius Draconum) so it could be tempered until it was strong enough to pierce dragon scales, so that's probably where the blood part came in.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Yes, it's close enough to the Latin word for "blood" to make that likely.
Todd Jensen

My guess would be it's dog Latin for something to do with blood. Dramatic and magicky, and it'd make sense with it being paired with iron.
Karrin Blue

Seeing if I can translate those incantations:

"In divine will and magic words: Light! Extinguish!"

"Earth fall seal the lair of the dragon! Vanish lair of the dragon!"

"Now, by the Hermetic Power, out of flame, sword [or iron]" - and I can't find "sangrinarium" in my Latin dictionary. I don't know if it's a rare word, or an invention of the scriptwriter.

Todd Jensen

It's really wonderful and I like it a lot! I am having fun.
Mike - [chrisjohn2211 at yahoo dot com]
Love makes us all

Speaking of dragons...

I was thinking back to the 1981 movie "Dragonslayer" for a couple of reasons. For starters Greg mentioned that seeing it made him want to work with Peter MacNicol. But also the magic uses Latin incantations which I know Greg also uses for his work.

Anyway, I found some of the incantations they used in the movie. I can make out most the words but unfortunately I'm not sure about conjugations so I thought I'd bring them here for the chat.

In Volunta Divina et Verbum Magi: Lux! Exstinguat!

Terrae lapsus consignet latibulum draconis! Evanescat latibulum draconis!

Nunc, per Potestatem Hermeticum -- ex flammis, ferrum sangrinarium!

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Started a playthrough again on the Second Dragon Quest game. So has anyone played the games or watched the Netflix film Dragon Quest Your Story (again, based on V)?

Yukiteru Amano...the First Diary Holder.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca