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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending July 4, 2021

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ANTIYONDER> I imagine Darkseid and his minions would be VERY interested in Thor, given that Jack Kirby originally intended the New Gods to be post-Ragnarok descendants of the Asgardians.
"You think I'm fighting for me, to save my own life? That's why you'll never win. I'm not fighting for me. I'm fighting for them!" - Captain America

Happy Fourth of July, everyone!
Todd Jensen

Also, also...

I imagine Godfrey lumping Thor in as another alien entering Earth without permission.


Better yet, who would be the first to conquer/compromise who?

A Skrull replacing an individual Reach, or a Scarab taking over a Skrull?

Maybe a three way alliance between The Skrulls, Reach and The Light with it being a three way betrayal?


The problem with replacing J'onn is they'd have to replace M'gann too - and if she's replaced, the Team is going to notice when 'Miss Martian' can't provide the standard mind-link connection, since they use that nearly all the time. Possibly they could bank on being able to fool whatever low-level, passive empathy the Martians have, and avoid making them suspicious enough to poke deeper? Like with Green Beetle.

I wonder if Skrull shape-shifting would fool a Lantern's ring's scan, or the Scarab's. I know they're usually good enough to fool Our Heroes' med-tech, but Oans and the Reach would presumably know they're out there, and just have way more advanced scanners generally (if the Skrulls popped into existence one day and just started invading, I mean.)

Karrin Blue

Skrulls possess a natural form of shapeshifting as well as some hypnotic abilities. It helps them be natural infiltrators. To mimic superpowers they go through a special form of augmentation, like the Super-Skrull possessing the powers of the Fantastic Four.

Now for who'd they would replace? That's something to consider. The first thing to come to mind is replacing the Martians as their shapeshifting would make them the easiest to emulate. But I can't imagine they'd be susceptible to hypnosis thanks to their psychic powers.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Karrin Blue> I don't have the heaviest knowledge of Skrulls from the main comics, but F4 #2 showed that the one copying the Human Torch used a device to emulate his powers. The one posing as Sue would merely change size to emulate her invisibility powers (force field ability and such weren't part of her capability yet). The one posing as Reed could easily copy his stretching abilities due to shape changing.

Some accounts I hear is that Super Skrull was genetically engineered to have the G4's powers rather than mere emulation.

Now a good point on them not knowing about The Team, well right away. Only cause if they found a Leaguer to abduct/replace that would change shortly. Heck maybe Martian Manhunter would be a good target as otherwise the real one would expose them and already have the shape shifting ability down.


Also, definitely seconding being glad the queue is moving again - I actually got a message from someone to let me know one of mine got answered, which was quite nice.

Hmm, a replacement Invasion scenario... I think the Light would probably end up infiltrated quickly, but not in the highest reaches - rather, the lower-level goons and minions, half of whom don't even know they're taking jobs from the Light to begin with. Maybe a couple of the mid-levels as well - Vertigo, maybe, and I'd guess some of the Onslaught members, except that Psimon would probably root them out quickly. And Slade, of course, because I'm very attached to him being kind of a schmuck jobber in Earth-16, and that includes getting beaten and replaced by a shapeshifter without anyone noticing. In the League and Team... honestly, I'm not sure how they'd know to look for the Team members to begin with. Most of them aren't public heroes, so I wouldn't think they'd end up on invader to-be-replaced lists. The League, though... well, I think Catherine Cobert would be snapped up rather quickly, and from there... I actually don't know the capabilities of the aliens to copy abilities too well. They must have SOME mimicry there, or the whole thing would fall apart, but some abilities are definitely user-specific, like Captain Marvel or the Lanterns.

Karrin Blue

Definitely I agree on this being a much needed moment of levity - I was dying with laughter watching this, there are so many good quips ("Hey, I'm older and wiser." "You're a clone, you're the youngest guy here." "Hey, I'm older than Jim!" "But I"m prettier!" lives, as the kids say, in my head rent-free).

Honestly though, I don't think Nightwing would've actually gone through with leaving Halo, Brion, and Jace behind - I read him this season especially as using a lot of misdirection both in relationships and internally, and this strikes me as part of that - as Will says at the end, he knows what the right thing to do is, and he even engineered a situation where he'd be forced to admit it - come on, the guy says he doesn't want to be responsible for the stray kids, then goes and seeks out the one person in their friend-network who's hosting one, wasn't on the mission, and clearly doesn't care about sparing his feelings? That's on purpose.

I have to say, I feel a little bad reading these reviews - what you're saying about callousness and all is true, but where you don't like seeing this kind of regression, characters we've known for years backsliding into their worst faults, I want to make a nest and roll around in it. Hamartia, you know? Negative character development, or a two-steps-forward-one-step-back period, can be a really great way to spice up a character arc over the (very) long term.

Though, I do want to talk just a minute about that "Now he's an adult and should know better." The thing is, what we're talking about here isn't really maturity - it's trust in one's own autonomy. And normally we do associate that with someone growing up, but the thing is, it's not really about how old one is - it's about whether someone, while growing, has been in situations that encourage and reward that kind of growth. And Nightwing sort of hasn't - there's an interview with World's Finest, linked somewhere on the YJ wiki, where Greg talks a bit about how growing up in this business has been sort of like a disease or a poison for the characters - it affects everything, how they see the world, how they treat the people they care about, but at the same time, it's clearly useful, it gives results that might not have otherwise paid off. But it is also exhausting, and destructive, and people find different ways of coping with that. Dick's seems to be that, while he's very good at being useful, it's easy for that to become all he focuses on, so he relies on other people to be a brake on that part of himself. And we can say that he should know better by now - but, looking over the whole show, acting this way keeps on being not only useful but vital, and from the inside 'act the way I hate, but that gets results' vs 'try doing something new, and maybe everything crashes and burns and the bad guys win' is an obvious choice.

Maladaptive behaviors are, fundamentally, adaptive - they work, even in a screwy, messy way, or they wouldn't get so embedded in people's minds, and once they're embedded, working out of them is draining and requires that someone be in a situation where they can take a step back and start unpacking things. If someoe is still in the thick of it, then it's a Sisyphean task - and Dick, for better or worse, seems to have been running missions around the clock for quite possibly the last two years. Certainly he's the only one of the core Team who doesn't seem to have any life outside of the work - Artemis has her degree, Will, and Lian, M'gann and Conner have their work and coworkers/clients respectively, Kaldur has his family and partner... it's a bit dire. Which is actually something that shows up in the comics a fair bit - Nightwing's work-life balance tends to collapse at the drop of a hat, so it's been interesting to see it here too. And, yet, I think ultimately Dick does want to change, even if he doesn't know how - we'll get to Nevermore in due time, but I do think his being the one to decide to come clean, and nominating Jeff as leader, is a sign of upward growth. Though, of course, we'll see how it pays off in S4 - I'm fascinated to see how it'll intersect with the mess of emotions that'll come up with Jason's return.

Zatanna and Zatara's scene really is heartbreaking, isn't it. That's another thing I'm looking forward to seeing - some of the asks we got answered recently (what good timing, right?) said that magic, and what makes a magical person magical, is going to directly come up in S4 - so I have a feeling Dr Fate, and this situation, will come to the fore. The center can't hold, and... well, normally I'd think Nabu knew it, but I'm not sure he knows how quickly Zatara is going to wear down. On the one hand, he should have the clearest idea of anyone, but on the other he's practically a god, so who knows how his perspective is skewing. Either way, I think his need for a new host is going to come into play soon, and even if the League decides not to throw the helmet into a pit, they're probably going to be giving some strong warnings to whoever the next candidate might be...

Karrin Blue

So yeah the Iron Man pic from Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes in the article for Recruits was just a fun thing and even if Weisman could legally mix all of these characters it wouldn't be that version of the Avengers.

But because that's arguably the best Avengers Animated Series we have just imagine say before or after YJ Season Two if Secret Invasion occurred then.

I definitely imagine some fear towards J'onn and M'Gann given their shape changing abilities. Godfrey would benefit greatly from a fleet of aliens infiltrating various Earth factions:-D.

So which YJ group members (The Light, Justice League, The Team and just for complicated fun The Reach) would likely be abducted and used for infiltration?


Algae> A lot his dialogue in "Summit" does come across as that. But funny enough, Black Manta has been compared to Malcolm X in the past.
And I even compared him to Captain Nemo when I saw his cabin in "Alienated."

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

MATTHEW> Manta-16 does seem to come across as something of a Black Nationalist Captain Nemo, at least in terms of his rhetoric about slaves and free men. I hesitate to make comparisons with Malcolm X, a deeply misunderstood and unjustly maligned figure who certainly would have no truck with the either the Light or the Reach, but it certainly feels like the "vibe" Manta is trying to project.
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." -Malcolm X

Looking through the responses has been interesting, one thing I noticed was that Black Manta's crew is exclusively black. I wrote that Black Manta in the past used the idea of creating a land free of racism as a way to recruit minions to his side, but overall didn't really care about equality just on killing Aquaman.

I wonder what the dynamics are here.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Kudos to the queue having less than a thousand questions -- it's been quite the marathon of responses this week, my favorite being https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=23089 d:

Also, as usual, I love the category name for the June and July 2021 responses on the Browse the Archives page, Gore :)

Outsiders: I remember I was delighted with how that social media campiagn-arc played out, and Jay Garrick's comments really added some Earth-16 context that fleshed out their meta-world history a bit.

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

I wonder whether Greg Weisman knows about the "Gargoyles" hommages in "Duck Tales" and "Amphibia", and if so, what he thinks of them.
Todd Jensen

So more responses: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=24032

You know I was never sure if I was odd for being a 80s kid not repulsed by girls. Weisman beat me to the punch. Never played spin the bottle though.

Makes me wonder if the older times of boys finding girls icky is/was just another case of Hollywood failing to relate to their fellow young peoples as it were:-D.


Matthew> While Invasion did indeed showcase how he didn't succeed in doing better, yeah Outsiders pretty much what Dick mentioned not ever wanting to do back in Disordered. You know wanting to still fight crime but not to the point of sacrificing everything for the sake of the mission.

Wonder how much elements in Season 2 and 3 were in Weisman's mind during Season 1 as far as Nightwing's actions go.


Thanks Todd, one thing I forgot to mention is that despite Roy's comment, Batman and Robin first appeared in broad daylight in the show.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I might add that, while I haven't seen this episode (or any of Season Three of "Young Justice" yet) the Quotes do support your description of this episode as the funniest in the season - and I'm just reading the words, rather than hearing the delivery.
Todd Jensen

MATTHEW - Thanks for another good review.
Todd Jensen

A brief moment of relief.

Watched "Private Security" today which brings some much needed levity following the heaviness of the Markovia trilogy. You know it's funny how things change, season 1 saw clone Roy as a drumhead-banging hothead. Season 2 drove him to being bitter, self-destructive and lashing out at those who'd help him. And now he's the most down-to-earth, sensible character perhaps of the entire season. Looks like that dad bod and beard really helped smooth out his attitude. Roy Harper was at one point considered the best single dad in comics and I'm glad that Will here eventually settled into that role. And that things have worked out for the guy too, nice home in the suburbs, owning his own business, can get off in time to see his daughter, and is pretty well adjusted.

But this just further cements the main difference between him and Dick, who's slipping when it comes to his own personal responsibility. We see through the flashbacks just how callous he's gotten lately, I mean there really isn't a way of just dumping a newly-meta, exiled prince, an amnesic girl who has no idea who she is and what she's capable of and a doctor who's probably persona non grata within her own country without coming off as a big...well you know. I mean, Nightwing was pretty insistent on saving Brion and Dr. Jace to begin with, how would it look if he just went, "Well the mission's done, you're own your own" right after?

And while it is refreshing to see Will tell Dick off for his behavior it brings up a serious disconcerting point and how people use others for their moral compass. I'm reminded of how Batman used a young Dick Grayson to "keep his dark and troubled soul in check." For starters, you're placing a huge amount of responsibility on someone else to keep your worst impulses in place, and for a young child that's just not fair. Back in "Performance" Wally told Dick that a best friend should be there to question his objectivity, and that was all well and good, back when they were teenagers. Now he's an adult and should know that's not a valid excuse anymore. I'll go into more about Nightwing, Batman and the issues of seeing these things as "missions" rather than work to help other people and the damage that causes at a later point. But for now I'll just point out that just because a moral is given at the end of the episode doesn't mean it will necessarily stick, and that leads to other problems down the line.

And speaking of of "missions" versus helping others, we check in on Zatanna and Doctor Fate. So I vaguely recall during a Ask Greg Live event that Greg mentioned that in season 2 he wanted to have an episode that had a strong Zatanna focus, I think this part was what he may have been referring to. So I have to point out that Zatara is a mere 47 years old during this episode and he looks a good two decades older, which does not speak highly of Nabu's working relationship. Nor does their arraignment either, one hour every year to be shared with Zatara's daughter and it's implied that if she's not on time he'll just bugger off. I do wonder if Nabu has really thought the implications of this through, he's still bound to a human host and they don't last forever. What's to stop the other heroes from telling Nabu they won't seek out another host for him because they don't trust him to look after they're well-being? Or just taking the Helmet, putting it in a safe and dropping it into the Mariana Trench because they've decided that no matter what good he can provide it isn't worth the cost? In a way, Doctor Fate feels like a warning against the "mission at all costs" mindset that will pop up later on.

There's two things I also enjoy about that scene, one is the relationship between Artemis and Zatanna. I know that Artemis has a pretty good relationship with most of the other heroes but I do like that the two of them have a closeness that not even Artemis shares with M'gann. And because of that Artemis is trusted with something of a deeply personal matter and will always be there to help comfort her best friend. There other part is Zatanna's response to Artemis telling her that things will be okay, "Will it?" Because that's an incredibly poignant response, how do you tell someone who loses their loved one all over again every year that it will get better? That the grief will fade even while the wound has been reopened? It's a good reminder that words of comfort, even when spoken with sincerity, can come off as platitudes if nothing can be done.

Some Final Thoughts: So at this point it should be obvious that Goode Goggles are going to be important. We get another look into the life of Halo and also another death via flashback, in this case death by lethal injection. We also see some of the violence she was exposed to even before Markovia, but I'll talk about those memories and the importance of those memories later on. We also get to explore more on Conner and Brion's relationship and the similarities there, I do like that he and M'gann pick up on that pretty quickly and Conner works to try and get him to unwind. Even if it's just keeping his mind occupied with cleaning motorcycle parts. We also catch up with the rest of the Harpers including the original. I still maintain that after a few days with him, the Runaways ditched Roy after it became clear that his issues were not endearing himself to anyone. Still, looks like he's calmed down and is far more willing to work with a team and dropped his lousy attitude.

And Lian's little hum and dance while waiting for her breakfast cereal is still the cutest thing.

Acting MVP: Crispin Freeman really carries the episode with his three man act and that's what really makes this the funniest episode of the season. But I still have to give credit to Lacy Chabert and Nolan North, all these years and they still manage to recapture the heartbreak from "Misplaced."

DC Profiles: Daniel Brickwell aka Brick is a metahuman whose super strength, endurance and trademark red skin earned him his name. A relatively recent Green Arrow villain, he's been a full on super villain and mercenary but generally falls back on being a gangster.

Favorite Lines.

Will: Good morning-
Artemis: Uh uh. First coffee, then talk.

Will: Seatbelts everyone.
Dick: You enjoying yourself?
Roy: In this getup? No.
Jim: Yeah, I think he was talking to Will.
Will: C'mon Grayson. Let's not pretend you were planning to hit your traffickers before nightfall.
Dick: Well, I-
Jim: That is the Dark Knight way, right?
Roy: Yeah, I hear all those Batboys turn into pumpkins in daylight.
Dick: [sighs] Whose idea was it to put all three of you together on one mission?
All Harpers: Yours.

Artemis: So, um, if you can't remember anything, why the hijab?
Halo: It...it feels right. Okay?
Artemis: Of course.

Arsenal: Seriously, why are we even here? No one's taking this stuff in broad daylight.
[Cut to Brick and his flunkies scoping out the trucks]
Brick: We're taking this stuff in broad daylight.

Man 1: It's like I'm on the bridge of the starship Engager!
Man 2: Bro, walk your geek self five feet behind me.

Will: Wait a sec, these aren't the right drivers.
Jim: Their credentials check out.
Will: The clipboard doesn't lie.
Roy: The clipboard doesn't talk.
[Will catches sight of one of the drivers]
Will: I know that guy, he's one of Brick's thugs. To the SUV!

Will: So, no one's taking this stuff in broad daylight huh?
Roy: Okay, I stand corrected. [Roy starts charging up his arm cannon] I'll just blow out the tires. Problem solved.
Will: What?! No! How about a solution that doesn't dump the merchandise into the ocean?
Roy: Someone's sure gotten picky in his old age.
Jim: Incoming.
[Brick pulls up alongside them and flashes Bowhunter Security a grin]
Will, Dick: Uh oh.
[Brick rams the SUV against the guard railing and causes it to drive straight into the path of an incoming school bus filled with kids]
Kids: Aaaaaaa!
Bowhunter Security: AAAAAAA!

Brick: You rent-a-cops cannot be making enough scratch for this gig.
Will: I own the company.
Brick: Too bad for you.
[Rips out the steering wheel]
Will: Oh, man, my insurance premiums!

Halo: We are here for your friends, but we do not talk to them? We are not with them?
Artemis: We're not here for this part.
[Zatanna and her father hug one last time]
Zatanna: No. Please Daddy. It isn't fair. It's not enough time.
Zatara: I know. But if we do not hold to the letter of the agreement, Nabu will never give us another opportunity. I love you Zatanna. And I'll see you next year.
[Zatara dons the helmet and once again turns back into Doctor Fate who leaves without another word and Zatanna collapses, sobbing]
Zatanna: No. No, no no no no no no no. No.
[Artemis rushes over to comfort her]
Artemis: It'll be okay.
Zatanna: Will it?
Halo:...We are here for this part.

Dick: Two down, one to go. Kinda like old times, huh, Wall?
Will: It's Will, not Wall.
Dick: That's... That's what I said.
Will: Is it just the red hair?
Dick: What're you talking about?
Will: Your need for a Wally West substitute.
Dick: What? That's ridiculous.
Will: Is it? You already had Roy and Jim, you didn't need me. Not for a mission anyway.
Dick: I needed someone who knows the city.
Will: You needed someone who knows you.
[Brick climbs to the top of the truck's semi trailer]
Brick: Do you low-rate heroes know how much this suit COSTS?!
Dick: Seriously?
Will: Hey, we're in the middle of a thing here.
Brick: Y'all interrupted my thing. It'd be rude not to return the favor.
[Brick charges at the two of them swinging wildly, which Dick and Will barely manage to avoid]
Will: I get it. [The two continue dodging] You needed someone to give you a reality check. To keep you honest. To tell you what no one else will tell the boss.
Dick: You're babbling.
[Brick grabs the distracted Dick who shines his flashlight right in Brick's eyes, causing him to drop him. Dick attacks Brick with a combination of kicks and strikes with a flashlight, which only dents the flashlight. But it does allow Will a chance to throw his clipboard straight into Brick's mouth and another kick from Grayson dislodges it right back into Will's hand. Will barely avoids a blow and is nearly thrown from the trailer]
Will: Well fine. Wally's not here so I'll say it.
Dick: What? What are you going to say?
Will: You already know. You're dropping the ball with these Markovian kids.
Dick: Taking care of strays wasn't the mission.
[The two of them dodge more blows from Brick and Will grabs hold from behind while Dick uses the West Maneuver and the two lift Brick over their heads]
Will: The mission is what the mission becomes! You know that! Those kids need you. Your team needs you!
Dick: It was just one op! I don't do teams anymore!
Will: You do now.
Brick: [Who's been flailing around the whole time] Hey cut it out! Put me down!
Dick: [Grunting] The guy makes a reasonable request.
Will: Plus, he's really heavy.
Brick: Oh man, this ain't right!
[Brick is thrown over the front where he's runover by all the truck's wheels until he comes to a stop] ow. This ain't right at all.

Brick: Seriously, who are you guys?
[cue Bowhunter striking a heroic pose]
Roy: Bowhunter Security.
Jim: Always on point.
Dick: [sighs] You were right.
Will: 'Course, I am. I'm older and wiser.
Dick: You're a clone. You're the youngest guy here.
Will: Hey, I'm older than Jim.
Jim: [offscreen] But I'm prettier.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Masterdramon> Speaking of the Infinite Crisis era and "Guessing that Jay's Tweet (or whatever) was a reference to how in many continuities, the reason the Justice Society of America disbanded was because the House Un-American Activities Committee tried to force them to unmask and reveal their identities to prove they weren't communists. The JSA refused out of principle and disbanded, rather than submit to McCarthy's frothing (and yes, fascistic) madness."

Read and recently reread the Superman trade containing IC Secret Files and Superman tie ins.

They mostly consist of Post Crisis Kal-El (First appeared in Booster Gold #6-7 and introduced in John Byrne's Man of Steel mini* and Pre-Crisis Kal-L (Basically represents the original version of Superman who appeared back in the first issue of Action Comics #1) end up experience flashes of the other's life and lives as that person. And you see basically them responding to events in the other's life.

Spoilers as the Superman Infinite Crisis trade is fairly affordable and another reprint of Byrne's run is recent (Superman Man of Steel Volume 1)

Kal-L as Post-Crisis Superman for example [SPOILER] when approaching Lex after his kidnapping and torturing Lana Lang brings along Batman who was able to gather just enough evidence actions and showing up to cover Lex's had with lead to disable the threat of the Kryptonite Ring [/SPOILER].

Kal-El as Pre-Crisis Earth-2 Superman [SPOILER] Shows up at the committee to give his identity and declaring his shame for the House [/SPOILER].

*Just cause I want to share trivia, yes while the Superman comics at the time reflected the Silver Age continuity, Post-Crisis Superman did debut in said Boooster Gold issue. Namely upon meeting the title character he scan's his suit and devices and noticing the ring is obviously future technology that he doesn't recognize.

As to the significance that can be found in Superman Man of Steel Volume 2 (I got it in Man of Steel V4 from the Mid-2000s though), so spoil at your own risk. Now the point of the end of the last paragraph [SPOILER] Booster's ring is a Legion of Super Heroes Flight Ring which ended up in his time period due to a paradox of sorts, and Superman not recognizing it reflects how Post-Crisis his teenage career as Superboy never happened, thus he doesn't meet any Legion members until running into Cosmic Boy in the Legends miniseries.

Problem is that DC didn't restart Legion of Super Heroes continuity until later so their backstory still has them inspired by Superboy and having many adventures with him as an honorary member. An example of how continuity suffered with some characters having their history altered while some kept theirs.

Cosmic Boy miniseries #1 goes into detail on Superman meeting the title character during Legends and is shocked that the Man of Steel doesn't recognize him despite knowing the younger version of him.

That mystery is revealed in Legion of Super Heroes Volume 3 #37-38 (Part 1 and 4 respectively, Superman Volume 2 #8 (Part 2) and Action Comics #591 (Part 3). Part 3 reveals that Legion enemy the Time Trapper took a moment of time and created a Pocket Universe producing the Krypton and Earth matching Legionnaires history.

As revealed after the story arc I believe it's because he wanted a force that could defeat Mordru that couldn't be easily traced to him, hence making sure the Legion would view the Pocket Universe and travel their when they attempted time travel. Cosmic Boy and Night Girl's trip to the past during Legends, plus some Legionnaires also traveling there during Booster Gold #8-9 are the only times any of them succeed in time travel which could be due to the after effects of the Crisis.

They really should have just wiped the board clean, but I do enjoy the story nonetheless. And cause DC couldn't leave well enough alone, LoSH is eventually rebooted so they wouldn't need to be tied to the Pocket Universe and it's Superboy. But the world in question was revisted in Superman and had significance to his continuity (Matrix Supergirl coming from it and after having to execute some Phantom Zone crooks exiled himself to space where he met the Eradicator who would later save him from death in Return of Superman). So it had to be recreated to avoid yet another plot hole.


Todd: Trust me when I say that pre-moderation, it was SO much worse. Like, this a conservative guess - for every spammy Beast Boy/Miss Martian question I left alone, there were around 50 I deleted.

But as tempting as it would've been to delete them ALL, if it was the first time they were asking a particular Gar/M'Gann question, no matter how inane, I left it. I only deleted the repeats. And good lord were there a LOT/I] of repeats.

Upon review I definitely missed a couple, but honestly I think that's to be expected given the sheer, overwhelming volume.

Matthew: There's only one person that Batman would trust with "registration" information: Batman. Heck, even [I]that
depends on continuity - some incarnations of Bruce Wayne are more self-aware of their foibles, and so wouldn't even trust himself with that level of access. But for the mainstream version...I mean, that's basically what caused the whole Brother Eye mess.

Karrin: Guessing that Jay's Tweet (or whatever) was a reference to how in many continuities, the reason the Justice Society of America disbanded was because the House Un-American Activities Committee tried to force them to unmask and reveal their identities to prove they weren't communists. The JSA refused out of principle and disbanded, rather than submit to McCarthy's frothing (and yes, fascistic) madness.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

Todd Jensen> And before that who knows how many questions were asking if Wally West would be in Outsiders and what the point of that season would be if he wasn't brought back to life:-D.

But um yeah. Spitfire forever!


It was great having more questions answered at "Ask Greg". (Though it's a pity that so many of those seemed to revolve around Miss Martian and Beast Boy.)
Todd Jensen

I've caught up! Very excited to find out there's a whole half season done and ready to go! And at least 6 being made by Studio Mir - I don't want to get my hopes up too far, of course I'll be happy with whatever we get, but I do hope my longed-for earthbender sibling brawl comes to pass. If there's one studio I'd expect to have practice with that, it'd be them, wouldn't you think?

And I'm also really interested by YJS4 having magic, and who has it, as a major subplot or main plot. A long while ago, in a reddit AMA, Greg and Brandon mentioned that Cassie (and presumably all demigods) would start their own meta-gene lines, separate from Vandal's - I wonder if magicians are related to that? DC does have such a thing as homo Magi, though I've always been a bit ambivalent on its use (as opposed to just, some humans can do magic and some can learn it, etc).

Karrin Blue

I don't know, some of the time (and in my personal preference) Batman being a vigilante is a response to the corruption, negligence, and abuse of power in Gotham's government and police, so I can see him being pretty cynical about a superhero registration act, depending on how it came up - not to mention that he'd probably be looking for an ulterior motive on the part of whoever was keeping the records and who they gave access to.

Also, wow that was a lot of asks. I'm still backreading, but the comment that whether or not Zatanna and Zatara are magical beings is a 'watch s4 and find out' is intriguing. I'd have figured if that didn't get a straight yes or no, then it'd be No Spoilers - interesting to find out that it'll come up somehow.

Karrin Blue

The thing with Spider-Man and teams has been something of an inconsistency for some time now. Early on in his career he as pretty active in trying to join teams like the Fantastic Four and the Avengers. But his "I quit!" attitude tends to revolve around the fact that a lot of writers prefer him as a solo hero, so it's back to the status quo. In any case, I can't imagine him being very comfortable with the Anti-Light conspiracy.

Now as for Batman Inc. and things like the Illuminati or Superhero Registration, that's trickier. On the one hand Batman's constantly been written as someone who feels the need to have some kind of oversight on his colleagues. But he's never liked oversight on himself. I'll cover this in more detail when we get to "Antisocial Pathologies" but for the most part I'll just say that he wouldn't have a problem with certain heroes being registered, as long as he wasn't grouped among them.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

So I wonder if the Wise Man ever crossed paths personally with the Wolf Man:-D.

So the Wise Man just posted a passel of Ask Greg responses.
"You never completely have your rights, one person, until you all have your rights." -Marsha P. Johnson

Forgot about that bit. Yeah need to rewatch the season a bit more I guess:-D.

Just haven't yet rewatched in as often as Season 1 and 2.


Actually, in a couple episodes they're going to mention how the US tried forced registration decades ago - and it was a debacle that didn't work and nobody wants to repeat. Jay joins Twitter to call it fascist, which still just delights me.
Karrin Blue

Algae> See now all I can think of is not only Reed and his Illuminati agreeing with the plans of Batman Inc and such, but said DC characters agreeing on forced Registration and launching the Hulk into space.

ANTIYONDER> Proving that no matter where in the multiverse he calls home, Redd Richards is still Reed Richards.
"You never completely have your rights, one person, until you all have your rights." -Marsha P. Johnson

Karrin Blue> Yeah. Heck in What If? Volume 1 #21 (following up to Spider-Man joining the F4) Reed basically blames Peter for making Sue feel left out of the G5 and leaving (really him using Spider-Man's presence as an excuse to leave her out of missions), so Pete quits.

But then The Thing agrees and retires soon after.


Peter does seem to tend to "You can't fire me, I quit!" from teams on a semi regular basis, so that might have happened anyways... though yes, I can't see him being too happy with the cloak-and-dagger stuff.
Karrin Blue

Karrin Blue> "and Dick is talking to Jeff, a career hero who's never shied away from responsibility."

Bet in radio play continuity that Spider-Man might be a little more distant from the team or resigning altogether.


I'll take 'Episodes that make me desperate to see how these character dynamics have shifted over the timeskip' for 400...

"He can "encourage" negative behavior yet never once says anything about banishing Brion, meaning Gregor already had that on his mind."

I really feel sad about this. Because I do think, consciously and in most of his subconscious, Gregor was caught between wanting to keep his last remaining family member safe and out of harm's way, and being uncertain and having so much resting on his shoulders that he was willing to listen to shady advice. Because he does seem to be sensible - I still how he put together Bedlam's scheme and called him out on the spot - but he is, also, 17, lost his sister two years ago and his parents a night ago, and now has to be responsible for a nation. And, I think, sending Brion away - even knowing that it broke his brother's heart - would've seemed like a better and better move to him as things went on. Even if it was a dark little thought in the back of his head he never wanted to acknowledge, I think some part of him figured that he was better off being able to make his own choices without Brion trying to backseat-rule or storm off on his own at the worst times. And on some level, I think it was a good thing - Brion had just gotten an extremely dangerous powerset, and there's a good chance he could've seriously harmed someone if he was in the palace with an (almost) fully human staff all day instead of Nowhere, Rhode Island, where he's hanging out with two ninja, a Kryptonian, and an immortal, and having time out of the spotlight to get his head together probably did him some good in the long term. On the other hand, who knows how many of those emotional issues came up just because of how he'd been exiled and Gregor's perceived lack of urgency, not to mention how the Markovian meta-human ban would've affected other, unrelated people.

"But what feels especially galling is him trying to pass it off as an unconventional victory"

See, the thing that strikes me about this is, in the season that brings in the "Anti-Light", fighting fire with fire - this is a classic Light move. You lose your main objective? Reassure the others that it's all according to plan because you got some other, tangential win, and pass that off as the main thing. Of course, the issue is that the Light were talking to their minions, who were usually more than happy to accept that explanation (since it let them evade blame for whatever their screw-ups were, and reassured them that they were fine and the bosses were happy), and Dick is talking to Jeff, a career hero who's never shied away from responsibility. And, honestly, I think Dick knows that this is a loss too - his issue (among many) is that he has a Batman-directed job to do, to keep Jeff in the fold, so he tries his best to give him some reassurance and completely missteps, and has to do his best to recover. And I think all this probably contributes to the clash between his internal opinions on the situation and his job that we see him needing to externalize next episode.

Anyways, these two character issues are something I'm very looking forward to seeing in the next season - not necessarily directly discussed, but just, seeing how they've evolved over time and the shift in situations. Does Gregor regret sending Brion away, or not regret what he did but wish he'd handled it differently, or not regret it at all, and how will that impact how he reacts to whatever developments happen in the Markovian throne subplot? Has Nightwing grown in how he handles these situations, after a year or two (hopefully more) of not having any secret agendas or ongoing responsibilities and just being another team member, and will that have given him some better perspective on what leadership should mean, and how will that influence his dynamic with the other veteran Team members, with Artemis and Lightning as his bosses, and with the younger generation? It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out.

I forget if I've mentioned this before around here but - I know the other Lantern Corps may or may not exist (certainly only Green's been mentioned) in Earth-16, but if they do, I really hope we get at least one quick joke about Halo's colors being completely mismatched to the emotional spectrum, especially the first four. Red rage lets her protect, orange greed gives her the freedom of flight, fearful yellow lets her attack, and willful green makes tricks and illusions - it could be pretty confusing for a Lantern, the first time.

I like to think Beast Boy's role was originally written for an adult actor (who'd presumably be painted green the whole time), but after his emancipation and debut as an independent actor, the showrunners saw his new work and rewrote the role for him, not least to use the hype of one of the only openly metahuman actors (the only one?) to drum up publicity and to save money on shapeshifter effects. Probably they passed off his age as a 'well, he's 45 in Martian years, obviously' thing.

I have to agree Plasmus' end feels very abrupt. It does sort of feel like it happened because they didn't have anything else to do with him, and to have Jeff go full circle and shout at that guy. And I'm still a little confused about what that guy was even doing out there in the middle of the night... Does he live there? It's barely a stone's throw from the palace, is he an employee in some ancient hereditary job like groundskeeper (boat-keeper?)

Karrin Blue

Todd> Thanks, though I can't believe I completely messed up that one emphasis and now a huge chunk is in italics. The one time I don't proof read...

Algae> It's been some time since I've watched anything by Linkara, I should do that again.

One thing I didn't mention was the rather abrupt end to Plasmus, but I thought I'd save my opinions on that for "Away Mission."

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Matthew> Yeah who's think that Nightwing would turn out to be a real Dick?

MATTHEW> "Oh, he also cloned Hitler."

Of course! Don't you know anything about SCIENCE!?!

Funny enough, DC also has a DOCTOR Bedlam who's one of Darkseid's many minions from Apokolips. During these three eps, I was half-wondering if they were gonna amalgamate him with De Lamb somehow.

"You never completely have your rights, one person, until you all have your rights." -Marsha P. Johnson

Thanks for another good review, Matthew.
Todd Jensen

The harshest of wounds come from the closest of families...

Watched "Eminent Threat" today which closes out the Bedlam Syndicate story and the events of Markovia for now. I haven't talked much about the Syndicate but they are a pretty insidious group for a couple of reasons, one is the fact that they're audacious enough to operate in a country that was most vocal about combatting meta-human trafficking. And two is that they're a bit like the Light in minature, doctors Jace and Ecks as brains behind their source of metas, Count Vertigo running the underworld side of the outfit and using his connections to the Light to acquire New Genesis and Apoklips tech and Baron DeLamb as the public face. And what's especially terrible is just how effective the group is, with just two murders and a little bit of fear-mongering, Bedlam managed to undo all the work the Markovs had done for meta-human rights. Even after the Syndicate is dissolved.

I once wrote in "Before the Dawn" on how important it is to not let the enemy control the narrative as the Reach going public before the heroes could allowed them a stage to spin their lies and eventually got them an open invitation to Earth. Here we have the...and I should preface this by saying I'm not a fan of using fairly modern, real world examples (and this season is going to have a lot of those). But what we have is the poisoned M&M analogy here. The king and queen were assassinated by a Quraci meta-human, ergo, Quracis and meta-humans are dangerous. It doesn't matter that the assassin involved was part of a conspiracy set in place by the Head of Markovian Security to secure the throne. It doesn't matter that Prince Brion managed to out DeLamb not only as a meta but the head of the Syndicate (and given that he was trying to usher Gregor off somewhere with his private security, there's a chance Brion interrupted an assassination attempt on his brother). At the end the same rules of vetting, built on fear-mongering, were kept in place.

We get to see a bit more of the dynamic between the Markov Brothers as they take the first step into a deteriorating relationship. You know the sad thing is, is that those previous rules didn't have to stay in place. With DeLamb exposed his rights as acting Regent are null and void but even before Bazzovi opens his mouth the guns were still trained on Brion. And knowing what we know now about the ambassador just makes the whole situation much more sinister. He can "encourage" negative behavior yet never once says anything about banishing Brion, meaning Gregor already had that on his mind. We'll see the problems that will arise from this and what's done, or not done, soon enough.

And finally, here's where we get a glimpse that Nightwing may not be the leader Aqualad once claimed him to be. I talked about in Season 2 the hands-off approach he had taken when it had come to field work and not really recognizing the urgency that other characters experienced mostly because they weren't kept in the loop. While I can't fault him for not rushing into a situation with too many unknowns, I can certainly fault him for actively choosing not to try and rescue the podded children despite Black Lightning's insistence and that also being a major reason for them going there. I can't fault him for going to rescue Superboy and the prince, but I can for him choosing to prioritize destroying the lab over helping his teammates (especially with Jeff's powers were on the fritz) while they battle Plasmus and and some thugs packing Apokolitan weapons. Honestly, if Halo and the Super-Cycle hadn't arrived, chances are Artemis and Jeff wouldn't have survived that encounter in the tunnel. But what feels especially galling is him trying to pass it off as an unconventional victory immediately after the kids were Boom Tubed away and[i/] they failed to grab Baron Bedlam or Count Vertigo. I'll talk more about character regression as the series goes on, but for now I'll just say things aren't going so hot.

Some Final Thoughts: We get another reveal of Halo's powers, in this case levitation corresponding with the color orange. We also get the first onscreen death from here, in this case death by severe fourth degree burns. We also get our first look at Goode Goggles, it's funny that when one plot thread comes to an end another pops up to take its place, sometimes in the most innocuous ways. I also love the interpretation of Courtney Whitmore as an entertainment host in the same vein as Maria Menounos. Also, I have to point out that Beast Boy is fifteen going
on sixteen and yet he's playing a lieutenant on tv. I don't know about you, but I'm getting some Wesley Crusher vibes right there. I didn't really think about it last episode, but we do see Queen Perdita at the gala several times, even sticking around during the fight, seems seven years later and she still has nerves of steel. Also get to see the beginnings of one of the better character dynamics this season, Conner and Brion. I like that Conner is the first one to really help the prince get a handle on his powers just by using real methods for helping others through panic attacks.

Acting MVP: Yuri Lowenthal does an admirable job as the conniving ambassador and the tragic Plasmus and Khary Payton's return to action was my first real "Hell Yeah!" moment of the series. But Troy Baker steals the episode, his anger and heartbreak makes you really feel for the guy.

DC Profiles: Baron Bedlam's legacy goes back to World War II when his father was installed as a puppet ruler of Markovia under the Nazis. Later he joined up with the Soviets to gain control of Markovia by assassinating the king. Interestingly he gained powers similar to Geo-Force but after the prince rather than before. Oh, he also cloned Hitler.

Plasmus was originally a mine worker in East Berlin until a cave-in buried him with radioactive radium and experiments conducted by the Doom Patrol's archenemy General Zahl transformed him into an inhuman monster. Hating himself and the world he became a member of the Brotherhood of Evil alongside The Brain and battled the Teen Titans numerous times.

Favorite Lines:

Nightwing: How did I not notice DeLamb is an anagram for "Bedlam?!"

Nightwing: S. B. We'll protect the doctor and the girl, get Brion.
[Superboy nods and leaps after Brion, Count Vertigo laughs at this]
Count Vertigo: Sending your heavy-hitter away? Not very good at this game, are you? I see you are down one Superboy. I'll raise you: [Dr. Ecks starts projecting copies of himself] one, two, three, four!
Artemis: Well, now we know why he is called [i]Count[i/] Vertigo.

Artemis: Halo-Girl? [spots Dr. Jace on the ground and helps her up] Dr. Jace.
Dr. Jace: But where is-?
Halo-Girl: Here. [They see her floating above them, glowing orange. Suddenly Plasmus reaches up and grabs her by the face out of the air]
Artemis: NO!
[Plasmus slams the screaming girl to the ground and Artemis can only look on in horror as Halo-Girl's face and hands are burned away at Plasmus' touch. Having finished her off, Plasmus lurches toward the two of them. Elsewhere, Black Lightning manages to down an Ecks duplicate when he spots the girl's burned corpse. He flashes back to the children in the pods that were Boom Tubed away, his own words "No, the kids. We lost them." Echoing in his mind. He thinks back to Plasma and the moment he killed her, of his denial that a simple shock had killed her. As he flashes back to the present he thinks back to his reason for leaving the Justice League, "I don't want to see any more dead kids."]
Black Lightning: COME ON! [Black Lightning walks through the smoke, bolts of lightning arcing from his hands] YOU WANT TO KILL SOMETHING?! [i]TRY ME

Gregor: Thank you. [Superboy nods in acknowledgment]
Brion: At least you're safe now brother. [Brion hears the cocking of guns and sees Markovian Security forces with their weapons trained on him] What are you doing? DeLamb is the criminal not me!
Baazovi: Your Highness, whatever the Baron's crimes, your brother also has much to answer for here. And if I may say, Markovia has suffered enough at the hands of meta-humans.
Gregor: Ambassador-
Baazovi: Please listen to me my prince. Your country needs a new beginning. A new king. A new leader! Now more than ever.
[Gregor considers this and then approaches his Brion, tears already starting to well up]
Brion: No.
Gregor: Brother...
Brion: [pleading] Gregor, please, don't do this.
Gregor: You must leave Markovia. Immediately.[Overwhelmed, Brion sinks to his knees, and Superboy goes to help him up] Take care of him. Please.

[Behind a raft, Dr. Ecks sends copy after copy into the fray, then Nightwing walks up behind him]
Nightwing: Ahem.
Dr. Ecks: Not again...
Nightwing: Again. [Knocks him out, and with that the other Ecks duplicates fade away, elsewhere Henchy helps Count Vertigo up]
Henchy: It's not going well Boss.
Count Vertigo: Indeed not. [Takes out a Father Box] Time to go.
[The two of them Boom Tube away as Nightwing drags an unconscious Ecks back to the others, and Plasmus lets out a roar. A shot is heard and a bullet pierces Plasmus' brain. Artemis and Black Lightning gasp as the poor creature falls over dead]
Farmer: Es nogalinaju the monster! I killed the monster! [Black Lightning shocks the gun out of the farmer's hand]
Black Lightning: You killed a kid! And when you realize that! [sighs] When you realize that, you'll regret it. Trust me.
[Halo-Girl approaches the hardened body of Plasmus and glows purple, it does nothing]
Halo-Girl: No life. Cannot heal.
[Superboy and Brion land near them, the prince has been crying]
Dr. Jace: Brion!
Superboy: What, happened?
Artemis: Nightwing? What do we do now?

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I mentioned recently that I'd rather like the cast of "Gotham Academy" to make a cameo in "Young Justice".

As an Arthurian buff, I certainly wouldn't object to the Shining Knight or Etrigan making an appearance (I know a bit about them through reading up on the Arthurian legend in pop culture). (Trivia: Etrigan has roots in Arthurian comics pop culture outside of DC Comics: Jack Kirby modelled his design on a scene in the early days of "Prince Valiant" where Prince Valiant disguises himself as a demon to scare a bandit chieftain to death - literally.)

Todd Jensen


When it comes to obscure characters I'd like to see the series take on Bushido and Kid/Red Devil, the latter even falls under the "spoopy" category.

Another one would be Kyle Rayner, because despite the fact that he's had a constant presence since his introduction he hasn't had much in the way of representation in other media.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.


I'd definitely be down YJ showing Sir Ystin some love, Lord knows they could use it. I'd also like to see YJ dip a lil' into the more "spoopy" side of DC Lore. I've always had a fondness for supernatural/horror characters like Etrigan and the Spectre.

"You never completely have your rights, one person, until you all have your rights." -Marsha P. Johnson


So, when I see people talking about what characters they want to show up next in YJ, it's usually repetitions of some fairly well known, well loved A- or B-listers. Supergirl, Jason Todd, Raven, that sort. But I've been wondering - what obscure, one-off, or little-used characters would you like to see? Personally, I'd love to see Khalid Nassour show up - he seems like an interesting character, and bringing in someone who could let Zatara rest and have a better, more equal relationship with Nabu would be good - especially if, given the reveal in Evolution, Nabu starts playing a role in the Vandal Savage plotline. I'd also get a kick out of Shining Knight joining - an ancient Arthurian knight would be great to bounce off the sneakiness of the Team. Having more MENA or genderfluid heroes would also take some of the weight off Halo being the only one, too.

I'd also be interested in some of the more obscure Titans and Titans allies - maybe Red Star (if the Red Rockets are supposed to be Russia's Justice League, maybe they want to try their own Outsiders? I know I've got a friend who'd love to see the Kapitalist Kouriers reappear), or Kole (mostly because I'd love to see how her backstory got adapted and which details came to the fore - the nuclear apocalypse paranoia? The kidnapping by a sun goddess? Her family mutating into crystal-bug creatures? There's a lot to work with.)

Karrin Blue

Todd Jensen