>Masterdramon: Good points on all counts. [SPOILER] Having Tomar-Re be that kind of perspective would make sense, and that would be a good way to write Rocket's visit to the school. And that's a good quibble to make re: Orion, as well. [/SPOILER] So I think you're probably right, and if you are I'll feel a lot better about it all.
Karrin Blue
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posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 5:13:56 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

Karrin: If I can make another bold guess, I think the most likely adult character to provide that perspective might be [SPOILER] Tomar Re. We know from the poster that he'll be prominent in this arc, presumably leading the Oa delegation at the summit, and while there's an obvious story reason to shine a spotlight on him (being, in the comics, the GL responsible for the sector that included Krypton when it exploded...given who the villains of our meta-plot are) I could very easily see his character accommodating a tweak to put him somewhere on the spectrum, or the Xudarian equivalent thereof.

Plus, more cynically, he's minor enough that DC execs are less likely to balk at the notion. I'd be surprised if Greg and co. were allowed to explicitly call their versions of A-listers like Batman or Wonder Woman autistic, the way they had no issue openly depicting Kaldur and La'gann as queer but apparently Bart Allen is a step too far.

As for the issue of framing, I definitely hear you. But even if hers is a story that has been told more and often, I don't think that means telling of Raquel's side of things isn't also quite valuable. Personally, I'll be disappointed if the resolution is as simple as "she doesn't 'get' it, and now she learns to 'get' it" because she herself is clearly at the end of her rope. She loves Amistad, wants what is best for him, but has only limited patience for "dealing" with when he is difficult, as a parent of any child (neurotypical or not) would.

Rather, I think the lesson needs to be that she needs to stop mentally framing it as "dealing" in the first place, and more to the point that the pair can't "deal" with it alone. Keep in mind the context that she had him when she was 20, seems to have been a single mom most of that time, AND has been balancing against the full-time job of "being a superhero" since she was 15. She has Noble to rely on at least sometimes, and he has a perspective that is probably more grounded and realistic than hers, but he also doesn't live with Amistad day-to-day. He's the ex they "go see" which suggests to me weekend visits at most.

Instead, I'd like the show's message to fall more in line that there are support networks out there, and resources that can help Raquel AND Amistad with the issues they're facing. It's easy for someone in her position to get resigned and in the mindset of "I'm the only one who knows my son, no one else understands" but that mindset ISN'T healthy and isn't doing a service to either of them. She's dismissive of the school meeting on his IEP, but it's a valuable and important tool in gearing Amistad's education in a way that's most valuable to him (though then again, as it's presumably an inner city minority-majority public school, she may not be entirely wrong that they may be limited in their ability to help by sheer resources).

Amistad's story matters, but Raquel's own mental health ALSO matters. And her current approach isn't working for either of them, even if it's coming from a place of love and (in her mind) acceptance. There's a lot to unpack there, and I'm incredibly interested in seeing how it plays out, but I definitely get being reticent given popular media's spotty-at-best track record on such things.

Incidentally though, I would quibble that she thinks "having a meltdown makes someone a monster." Her language is unduly harsh, yes, but it comes after a full episode of watching Orion and the Supertown society in general being casually racist toward a minority group, AND after that meltdown results in him physically assaulting two children from said minority group. His neurodivergence is an explanation for why he committed the assault, but shouldn't excuse the action. Especially as, being a warrior with super-strength, that blow could've easily killed those larvae. I have no difficulty understanding why she'd be reticent to continue meeting him at the delegate's table after that. [/SPOILER]

B: I have seen it in YouTube clips, and there's some fun enough fanservice there. But I haven't really watched any of the series all the way through since Savers.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Inside of every demon is a rainbow." - Charlie Magne
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 4:14:31 pm EDT from 98.150.138.224

B: You're not wrong, but... If we're to condemn every movie where a character is unforgivably stupid in the service of comic relief or the plot, how many movies will be left?
Friendly CIA Spook
Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near? My guess: you remind them of carrion.
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 4:00:30 pm EDT from 64.191.69.154

In terms of the treatment of autism that I see being discussed, I have but one thing to say: young justice is a show that jumps around its timeline a lot. these past two seasons have introduced Jon and Damien and a recent episode implied that the show will(assuming renewal) continue until at least a decade in the future. So we may get to see Amistad as a superhero, possibly a second rocket at some point in the future. Greg is known for introducing characters who seem minor at first but become major later on, like when we saw Cissi in season one as a child and now she is arrowette.
Henry
HGB
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 3:47:27 pm EDT from 134.10.130.78

@Masterdramon: Did you see the big crossover from Digimon Xros Wars?
B
B
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 2:51:27 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

Also (sorry for the double post) - nice job guessing, Masterdramon! [SPOILER] I'd thought we'd get to the Phantom Zone, but I hadn't put together Zod being stuck there and Lor-Zod being in the Legion. Though... geez, is this going to be the first time anyone on Earth-16 meets any other Kryptonians? They've got no idea what to expect - heck, I've got no idea what to expect! At this point it might turn out Lor did a whole elaborate double-bluff fake traitor routine to trick the Legion and League to get his dad out of the Phantom Zone... well, it'd be really overelaborate, but who knows at this point! [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
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posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 9:59:02 am EDT from 68.9.91.142

Sorry, meant to respond yesterday...

>Aldrius: The thing is, I don't expect the show to become a 'treatise about autism' - I may have written part of one with all this, but I wasn't expecting the show to stop being about telling the story first, and of course I wouldn't want that. My concern was, every other time this show has had a new character in a minority group, that character is a hero, and they are in the teen-young adult-adult age range that the show is aimed at. We have Latine heroes, we have Muslim heroes, we have queer heroes. I've watched this show hoping for an autistic hero for years, but when we got an explicitly autistic character, they're... a small boy. Exactly like the other small autistic boys I've seen again and again. Because autism is seen as a child's disability, either because autistic adults are never depicted, or are depicted as either 'children in adult bodies' or, occasionally, villains who are villainous because they are autistic. And, again, nearly all depictions of autism are from the POV of a parent - whether they're one who 'gets it' or 'doesn't' doesn't really figure in, because it's still from that neurotypical perspective.

Which is what I mean by 'othering', by the way - not that Amistad and Orion are supposed to be complete enigmas (as I and Matthew have said, there's a lot there that's familiar and seems real), it's that by framing it from Rocket's POV, it can feel like the show is not saying 'this is what it's like to have your experiences, here is what it's like to be in your situation, here's how you are strong and heroic', it's saying 'here's what it's like to have to be around someone like you, here's how other people see you, here's how you're scary, here's how you need to be given special treatment.' The perspective is firmly that of an allistic person, looking at autistic people from the outside. Which, no matter how accurate or not-negative that depiction is, is a depiction that assumes the viewer isn't also autistic. That's what I mean by 'othering', and (unfortunately for YJ, because this isn't their fault), it's a form of othering that is very very common. It's the vast majority of depictions of autism - small boy, and the parent experiencing that small boy, who Learns To Accept/Be Inspired By Them. I've seen it before, a million times, and a constant refrain of 'here's someone having to deal with you' instead of 'here's you' gets, well, repetitive, no matter how detailed those 'someone having to deal with you' stories get.

And... listen, while I get that the story is Rocket's arc of learning to accept people, a part of me is kind of bitter that when Halo said they might be not a girl, everyone warmly accepted them and said they were honored to help them, and when a half dozen characters turned out to be queer they were welcomed to everything, Team and League members of equal standing who no one doubts, but when it's an autistic person, that's when we get the story about someone needing character development to stop thinking that a meltdown makes someone a monster, or that 'they don't get him, he's intelligent' is a rebuttal to 'he is autistic.' I was hoping for a hero, who would just be accepted, the way other minority heroes were. It's not a great feeling to think someone needs a whole arc to come around to the idea of a person like you being intelligent and being autistic, yknow? Even if that arc is a good one, it's not exactly encouraging.

Hopefully that makes sense, anyways. And we've only seen 25% of the episodes, so a lot can change and probably will. A lot of what I'm saying here is much more about the general depictions of autistic people in media than YJ - obviously Greg and Co had nothing to do with Saint Elsewhere's finale, or All in a Row, or whatever. It's just, well... you know how completely ubiquitous the focus on coming-out stories is, and there have probably been times when you've gotten utterly sick of them, because you've come out, you've seen it a million times, can't we do something else for once? It's like that, I think - most individual ones are probably basically fine, but the pattern as a whole, that this is the only kind of story that gets told, gets grating. And now imagine how much more grating it'd be if those coming out stories were always from a parent or best friend's POV, about how they need to learn to accept the gay person in their life, and was always telling you it would take effort for anyone to just take you as you are. Even if they're well told stories! But again, we've only seen a fourth of this arc. I was talking with some others about what might happen, and honestly there's a lot that seems likely - given the ways the crew has written stuff in the past - that would put my mind at ease more. Like, maybe one of the teachers or other parents Rocket will have to talk to at that meeting will be autistic and can set her straight, or, heck, maybe we could see them talking with Amistad in an echo of that conversation Halo had with Madia. I know when I was younger I was desperate for perspectives from adult autistic people, who didn't just tolerate how I felt and thought but had been where I'd been. Or maybe the diplomatic summit will have other autistic New Genesians besides Orion. Or maybe we'll get a reveal that one of the other Leaguers is autistic, there's plenty of them to choose from who we hardly know at all. There's options, and I'm looking forward to seeing where they go.

Also, that's a neat interview! I only wish they'd done more characters, this kind of thing is always fun for me. I feel like Wally'd love things like Apollo 13 or the Martian - people faced with overwhelming odds, but sticking together and surviving through ingenuity, determination, and refusing to give up on each other. And... weirdly I feel like Conner'd love documentaries? Planet Earth, Cosmos, just David Attenborough talking about how neat whales are or how the tundra food chain works. Or maybe Ken Burns documentaries - I've always thought that history download he got from Lex must have had some pretty biased interpretations of events, so maybe he'd like to get some other perspectives.
Karrin Blue
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posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 9:14:26 am EDT from 68.9.91.142

Seriously? It's such an unfunny movie. The aliens are portrayed as Funny Foreigners combined with Funny Mentally Disabled, and not only is the premise insulting to the intelligence because of the sheer number of contradictions they would need to have somehow not noticed like the fact that Earth doesn't have spaceships and the cast are at the con under different names from their characters, it's based on disappointment, the most triggering of all emotions to depict in fiction. Watching it was painful. Not to mention at the end one alien girl stays in a false form for someone else's benefit and is fetishized like Enterprise's T'Pol.
B
B
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 8:56:22 am EDT from 104.228.162.16

As long as they somehow worked in three cowboys singing "My Little Buttercup" I'm game.
Friendly CIA Spook
Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near? My guess: you remind them of carrion.
posted @ Sun, Apr 17, 2022 5:23:49 am EDT from 64.191.69.154

I remember Greg once posting a "Galaxy Quest"-inspired creativity demon at "Ask Greg", where Elisa and a few other "Gargoyles" characters get transported to our world by one of Alex's pieces of magic and sought him out at a Gathering convention to get his help.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2022 9:52:26 pm EDT from 70.176.217.135

Never heard anyone say "You know what I don't like? Galaxy Quest." Even those averse to Tim Allen like it.

Unfortunately M'gann's love for a fictional movie that is only real in the context of a real movie which is a work of fiction is making me go cross-eyed. I suppose we'll await Benoit Blanc's guest appearance on Young Justice with bated breath.
Friendly CIA Spook
Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near? My guess: you remind them of carrion.
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2022 8:44:11 pm EDT from 64.191.69.154

Doesn't surprise me that Greg's a fan of Galaxy Quest, Gargoyles is stuffed with Trek actors and that movie is one big love letter to Star Trek and its fans.

What did surprise me was Artemis being a fan of The Kingsman, I imagine that being so well-read that she'd be familiar with Mark Millar and his lousy track record with women.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2022 6:54:03 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

B: Ha ha, thanks! You can tell my internet handle was created by 11-year-old me (the final evolution of my OC Digimon at the time) and then just sort of stuck.

As for [SPOILER] the Adversary, these are the clues I used to deduce his identity:

A) They clearly have heat vision based on the sabotage of the Zeta platform and the cave-in. While this doesn't automatically narrow it down to a Kryptonian (or Daxamite), Occam's Razor would dictate the camera wouldn't focus on the twin-dot markings without it being important.

B) The simple fact that the subtitle "Phantoms" had me primed to think of the Phantom Zone long before there was any plot revealed for the season (and before it became clear the title had a LOT more layers of meaning than that). In fact, my first guess to the season's acrostic was INVITATION TO THE PHANTOM ZONE. That the PZ is generally depicted as a dimension where time does not pass (loved the detail that when we finally get a timestamp for it, the date/time is blanked out) made it seem all the more likely to be connected to the time travel plot.

C) General awareness of the more villainous reinvention of Lor that was reintroduced in Rebirth.

That's…it, honestly. The rest was more just wishful thinking. I was a fan of Chris Kent and was disappointed he was, for lack of a politer term, screwed over by the New 52. It's long been a hope of mine to see Conner, Chris, and Jon together in the same continuity, as I think the tent's more than big enough for multiple Superboys. And I knew the YJ crew have liked to play with multiple versions of characters before, i.e. separating Roy's Red Arrow and Arsenal identities into separate characters by way of the clone subplot.

Obviously, that gets far ahead of where we are now. Where the story is going to go for Conner, Lor, Dru, Clark, Jonny, etc. is still up in the air, but I'm all on board for seeing it play out.

But yeah, really more of a lucky guess than anything. Just enjoying my little victory lap while it lasts, LOL. [/SPOILER]
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"Inside of every demon is a rainbow." - Charlie Magne
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2022 6:23:28 pm EDT from 98.150.138.224

I had the same complaint about Kingsman: The Golden Circle, that was such a disservice to Roxy/Lancelot's character. At least it was nice to see Elton John.

Added Sá»' Ä'ỏ to my to-read list.

I hope Greg was kidding about Galaxy Quest.
B
B
posted @ Sat, Apr 16, 2022 3:12:50 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

Shifting to another subject at least for a little bit, Greg and Brandon did an interview with Polygon about what they and some of the characters from the show like to read and watch.

You can catch it here: https://www.polygon.com/entertainment/23014687/young-justice-movies-beast-boy-miss-martian-artemis
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 11:32:33 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

I think one thing to remember is it is a dramaturgical text. Not a treatise on autism. The story is primarily going to be sympathetic to Rocket because a lot of it is going to be set in space where her son isn't around, and the whole point of even having that introduction is to frame Rocket's experience (who is a character who we don't even know particularly well) so that we have a point of reference.

That's not to belittle anything you're saying or feeling, Karin.

I just don't think Orion or Rocket's son was portrayed in a particularly negative way. Rocket's son is obviously young, and the show did a good job showcasing the difference between a parent who gets it (the boy's father) vs. a parent who doesn't (Rocket). And Orion is not friendly, but we see enough of him and his thought processes to understand why that's the case. He's not even really othered by the storytelling because there's so much time spent "explaining" him, even just in this initial episode.

By the way loved the Zod voice in this episode. Zod's never a character who's REALLY worked for me, obviously Terrance Stamp is extremely iconic in the role, but I LOVE Phil Morris here (I mean I love Phil Morris in anything). Really looking forward to seeing more.

Incidentally, we do a patreon bonus episode for our podcast every other week and this week we spoke about queer representation in anime. While we spoke about queer representation in western animation last week. I brought up Young Justice in both videos I think.
Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 11:27:18 pm EDT from 65.95.86.37

Karrin> Have you read Look Me in the Eye by John Elder Robison? It's a fascinating memoir about growing up with Asperger's before the diagnosis was brought to the states. I think that's an excellent portrayal of the Spectrum from the inside rather than the outside.

Which brings me to another point, a few years ago I read A Wrinkle in Time for the first time and one of the immediate takeaways was that I wish I read it as a kid. I have no doubt that the three kids are on the Spectrum to one degree or another even if the book doesn't say so. And it does a great job of fleshing out the three of them so even while them being on the Spectrum is part of their character, it's not the entirety of their character.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 4:56:24 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

B> Make that FIVE! ;)

[SPOILER] As someone also on the autism spectrum, I admit I share a lot of the same concerns as Karrin. Though, I'm reassured to hear Greg and Brandon consulted with ASAN for this arc. Hopefully, three or four works from now we'll all look back and wonder what we were worried about.

That said, as a big Kirbyphile, I really enjoyed this arc and finally getting to explore New Genesis after three seasons of teases. Orion's always been a particular fave and I'm pretty excited to see him explored more [/SPOILER]
Algae
"People get built different. We don't need to figure it out, we just need to respect it." - Princess Bubblegum
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 3:52:49 pm EDT from 217.183.44.235

It's a problem of perspective, I think. If I want to seek out Black perspectives, queer perspectives, Jewish or Asian or Native American perspectives on anything from critical theory to poetry to autobiography to cooking, I can. But there's no autistic body of work, not really. If I Google 'black movies,' I get Moonlight, Get Out, Spike Lee - if I Google 'autism movies', I get Rain Man, Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, Sia's Music. What there is, is neurotypical people writing about what they imagine is going on.

The outside looking in - and often, the outside looking at the outside's reflection in a window pane, and maybe not even acknowledging that there's an inside at all. Lovaas, inventor of ABA (still the only 'treatment' for autism a distressing number of insurance providers will pay for) took it as given that autistic people were hollow inside, and that a person had to be constructed therein by any means necessary, and any harm in those means didn't count because it's not like you were starving and screaming at a person. Even now, it's disturbingly easy to go onto forums ostensibly about helping autistic people and find people being employed to take care of children who think it's absurd a kid might just not like a given food or sound. Melanie Yergeau's essay on Theory of Mind, and the enormous body of still-in-use work built on assuming autistic people lack that, and her own involuntary commitment (http://dsq-sds.org/article/view/3876/3405) is an excellent piece on the topic.

The point being, there's an enormous amount of work about autistic people - but nearly always from the outside, from the perspectives of neurotypical people. The autistic person's perspective doesn't appear - heck, sometimes they're outright an inanimate object onstage. And it's not just fiction, either - anyone who tries to search up ways to make going to the doctor less of an overload nightmare, or tricks to meal plan when you have executive function issues, is going to be inundated with 'here's how you, a neurotypical, can make your toddler shut up and be dragged through it'. There's even less for autistic parents of autistic children.

This has gotten somewhat disorganized, but to be clear: I don't think YJ has fallen into most of these issues, I know that the crew is making a fair effort and has done due diligence to the best of their ability, and compared to the vast majority of what's out there much has been done right. But I wanted to explain the background radiation as I see it, the context I'm coming from, and why it is that that makes me concerned when I see that when this show wants to talk about Muslim people, we hear from Muslim characters, and when it wants to talk about queerness, we hear from queer characters, but when it wants to talk about autism we hear mainly from neurotypicals. And maybe this will all be moot by next week, and these are all addressed later - but for the time being, while this is what we have, I wanted to explain why I feel this way. If nothing else, if things turn out well, hopefully this whole spiel will be a list of problems avoided, and the arc an example of one way to steer clear of them.

Anyways. Sorry for the double post, and happy Day of the Sun/Passover/Good Friday/so on.
Karrin Blue
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posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 1:58:07 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

OK, so I'm writing this between getting things ready for seder tonight (chag Pesach sameach, to anyone else who's celebrating tonight!) so, if no one minds me responding in chronological order to keep things neat:

>Kevin: [SPOILER] Yeah, there's not many characters to pull from in the rest of superhero canon. There's certainly bad portrayals - the section of time in Aquaman canon where Black Manta was evil because he was autistic and briefly becomes good on being 'cured' by Aquaman's healing magic comes to mind - but there's been very few good ones. Though, I don't think you'd even necessarily need to introduce a new character - one of the benefits of an ensemble cast is you could take lesser used characters and say that, in fact, they were neurodivergent this whole time, the same way we just had it confirmed that in fact La'gann and Kaldur were bisexual all along. Maybe Asami's use of 'sumimasen' in S2 was echolalic, maybe Dr Roquette has a special interest in nanoengineering (and accompanying disregard for social graces.) Even without adding a new character, there's options. Though a new heroic character would be fun as well. [/SPOILER]

>Matthew: [SPOILER] So, this might have been unclear in my original post - the perils of posting after a long day - but: I never meant to say that I think Amistad is an incorrect version of an autistic person. Some stereotypes are a problem because they're flat wrong, but some are only incomplete - the problem isn't what's in them specifically, but that they're the only things we ever see. Like I said, I recognize a lot of moments in Amistad. The issue is feeling like they're there to be gawked at. Or, in fact - you say that the problem on the train is with the folks on the train, and that they need to be more understanding to reduce stresses on the parent. But that, in itself, is part of the problem.

When YJ wanted to show Terra having a panic attack, the camera zoomed into her perspective, we heard the heartbeat pounding, we saw her vision go fuzzy. When Amistad is getting overloaded, or having a meltdown, we're not seeing anything from his perspective, we are seeing it from Raquel's, and how she's inconvenienced by it. That's what I mean when I say it's a problem for her needing to excuse her child - not that Amistad is in the wrong, but that she's the one whose emotions the camera cares about, who the audience is expected to sympathize with. The impression I got is that we are meant to feel bad for her, for other people not getting her child - but that there's little focus on what it feels like for Amistad, directly experiencing the overload. Which wouldn't be an issue in a vacuum - it's Raquel's arc, her story - but it is part of a very, very long pattern of fictional and real representations of autistic people being only from the perspective of a neurotypical parent with a young child. YJ becoming part of that pattern when I'd hoped it would break it is somewhat disheartening. It is impossible to avoid stories of how autism looks from the outside - even an accurate portrayal that stays outside still won't be one that tries to get the audience to see how it feels to the person in question.

It's the same thing with Orion. Like you, I can recognize the directness of speech, the claustrophobia, all that. It's just - well, and maybe this is something that's going to change as we get more episodes - but Orion's autistic traits so far seem to be mainly negative ones, or ones which inconvenience the cast, or are meant to make him seem like kind of a jerk. I 100% can see why he would get overloaded and have a meltdown at the end - it's just disappointing to me that that is framed almost entirely like he is a scary monster rather than a person. It's not that I don't recognize these moments, it's that I'm so used to them showing up in media as a way to dehumanize the person having them - because what does that say about me, who has moments like that too sometimes? If Orion has a meltdown and everyone around him agrees it's because he's Darkseid's son, what does that say about real people who have meltdowns because they've had a long day and are burned out? Again, it's this pattern that autistic people are experienced by the person with the point of view, and being judged by them, or doing harm to them. [/SPOILER]

>Greg: Thank you for taking the time to respond to me, I do appreciate it. I noticed on your twitter that you'd said you'd consulted with people you couldn't name, and I took that to mean that there were autistic people involved who did not want to be publicly out as autistic. I also noticed that Amistad's VA was autistic, and I thought he did a good job. I'm glad to hear that you consulted with ASAN. And to be clear - I never thought that you and the crew would have not put in effort to talk to people, or find research. But... well, the problem is, I've seen - online, in media, in my personal life - that people can put in effort and mean very well and, just because of how inundated autism resources are with ableist information, it's very easy for harmful information to spread or be considered authoritative over self-advocacy. As a viewer, when stories start to try to include autistic people, knowing they did research can put me into a sort of Schrodinger's Cat situation - until the penny drops, I don't know if that research led them to self-advocacy, to stories by autistic people for autistic people, or to inspiration porn and ABA blogs about how kids need to be taught to play 'correctly' and that old canard about how most parents of autistic kids end up divorcing. It's not that I don't think the crew would do their due diligence, it's that I know how easy it is to try to do due diligence and still fall into these patterns - I work at a school and I've seen cutesy slides on informational PowerPoints about autistic kids citing Ivan Lovaas without any acknowledgement that he didn't think autistic people were people and thought electro-shocking children was good practice. I'm not even convinced it's something people can avoid by putting effort in - sometimes it seems like it's down to pure luck. So that's why it's hard to extend trust even knowing people tried to do their homework.

And... So, I did figure that Noble was meant to be the good parent, the one who gets it. And I figured that this was probably going to involve people on the crew drawing on experiences of autistic children they knew or were related to, and were personal, and would probably include more-or-less accurate anecdotes of things they've experienced. But the thing is - the flood of mommy blogs filming their kids having meltdowns, or talking about how inspired they are by their 7 year old, and how they're learning to see the wonder of life from how their kid likes their special interest, are also personal, and also more-or-less accurate recountings of their experiences. It's just that those are their experiences. I've seen oceans of stuff about how it is to parent an autistic kid - how hard! how inspiring! - and very, very, very little about what it is to be an autistic kid, or to grow up from an autistic kid to an autistic adult, and most of those are just the inspiration porn from first-person POV. It matters less how personal the story someone's telling is, and more who's been getting the mic.

Or, from another perspective: Imagine if for the last while, whenever there was a story about a gay person, it would always be about the struggle of their heterosexual parent to accept them. That early on, it would mostly take the form of how the parent couldn't understand their kid at all, how enigmatic and confusing and incomprehensible they were, and then very very recently there was more of a trend towards defending that kid - but even when the way the kid being gay was treated and view changed, it was still always only from the perspective of the parent, with no focus on the gay person's perspective, or how they feel about their parent struggling to accept them. Those might be very good stories - they might be stories that help real-life parents of gay people to relate to their children - but if that's the only thing being made, that would also be very frustrating to gay people who'd just like to see stories about themselves, that aren't about how weird and hard it is to be related to them or how they're teaching a lesson to people.

And that's without getting into how so much of the rhetoric around autism fixates on childishness where queerness doesn't - autistic people are usually portrayed as children, or as adults with children's minds. Autistic adults get "Well, I don't think you're autistic, my toddler nephew's autistic and you're nothing like him" very frequently without any acknowledgement that, yeah, a grown adult isn't going to act like a 3 year old no matter what their neurotype is. Which was another reason I was disappointed to see that the first character we were getting was a child, and the first adult seems to be paralleling that child with outbursts of rage and needing parental correction.

And, well. I know that this is a problem I see because it's the only part of the story we have so far. It might be that next episode we'll see other New Genesians, or other autistic humans, and we'll get a lot about how autistic adults are people like anyone else, we have our joys and our woes as other people do, and we grow up into people who understand ourselves and make friends who welcome us. I hope that happens, and when I wrote my post before I did know that everything I was saying might be made a moot point in a week. But it's something I feel strongly about, and on such a fraught topic I wanted to put my two cents in (though it might be worth a couple dollars by now... this got a lot longer than I meant it to) based on what I could see.

Anyways. Thanks for taking the time to respond, I do appreciate it.
Karrin Blue
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 11:55:20 am EDT from 68.9.91.142

I'm an autistic person as well. So there are at least four of us here. Huh.

Thank you for speaking, Greg. I didn't have a problem with the autistic representation, and of course it's usually best to watch and see how things develop. I haven't put in my two cents yet because I'm still formulating it.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 10:23:15 am EDT from 104.228.162.16

For the record - which does NOT mean you have to like what we're doing - we did work with ASAN, who gave us notes, all of which we took. They vetted and approved everything we did. We also worked with a more parent-focused organization. And with Warner Bros. own DEI department. And we worked with four other individual experts, who have experience working with autistic children in various settings. You can accuse us of a lot, but we did our homework. We also hired an autistic actor to play Amistad.

Also, don't assume we approve of Raquel's start point. (Noble clearly doesn't.) I'd ask - but it's just a request - to give this arc the chance to get her somewhere new.

All of which, I suppose, is a spoiler of sorts. But it seemed important.

At the end, you may still not like our choices. And that's fair. But we didn't take this on lightly. And it's not just a good deed. This storyline meant something to a lot of us on the crew.
Greg Weisman
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 3:51:51 am EDT from 70.227.91.143

So.....here's some other things.

[SPOILER] I'd say that Amistad's portrayal here comes off Rain Man stereotypical (not without reason) on the surface but there's a lot of intricacies that I recognize. I've lived those moments and I've done my best to help others work through those moments. The need for patterns is something I know quite well so is the sensory problems. For me, mine was usually linked to light and sound which is pretty common. But I have heard of folks who have similar problems when it comes to scent. And when these kind of problems do arise, the filters disappear. The problem has been recognized, is vocalized and therefore the problem needs to be corrected. And here's where I disagree with Karrin's conclusion. This is not a problem for Raquel having to excuse her child, this is a problem for the folks on the train who just see problem child throwing a tantrum because his mom hasn't properly disciplined him. Just a bit of understanding and not jumping to conclusions could do wonders for at least alleviating some of the stresses for parents.

For Orion, I personally think that his "autistic adult" metaphor isn't 100% tied to his Apokoliptan heritage just the most highlighted part of it. I noticed his to-the-point, direct to the point of curt speech pattern the most obvious part of it. Him being the son of Darkseid was not the thing that broke him at the end of the episode. It was twice dealing with claustrophobia with some girl who wouldn't get the obvious signs (obvious from his point of view), the growing frustration at the Bug's obstinance even in to the point of suicidal, the larva unwilling to even step away from the obviously dangerous power cell and just everything that broke him at the end of it.

I can empathize with that. I've done that. I've wanted to shout, "This would be so much easier if you all WEREN'T SO ****ING STUPID!" more times than I can count. And just like Orion there's always been that simple moment of course correction with the help of something quiet and familiar and an apology afterward, which I may or may not have been honest about. What stood out to me was that quiet look of horror after the Mother Box brings him back, right before the stoicism shows up again. I can relate to the need to feel nothing after outbursts like that.

This isn't an easy thing. The Spectrum is just that, a spectrum. What some people can find cringe others can relate to because everyone's journey living through this or seeing this is different from others. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 2:43:25 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Orphan being a child does not mean she had never killed before. But I guess Barbara didn't want her going any farther down that road even if she had, and figured at her age she was still developing and thus easier to reach.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 1:28:44 am EDT from 104.228.162.16

Um, it looks like Verdragon got "latter" and "former" mixed up.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 12:57:56 am EDT from 104.228.162.16

[SPOILER] As someone with autism I see where you are coming from this is a tough topic as I believe the only time I felt autism was shown right in superhero fiction was in Marvel's Daredevil's Kingpin. Who is a villain... so more work needs to be done. I feel like they need a hero on the Team or the Outsiders who is on the Spectrum but I can't think of someone who would fit? Maybe a young Green Lantern, or someone from Atlantis or a magic based hero? It would be great to see the creativity that would come from that. [/SPOILER]

And regarding Halo I think the deaths and injuries were the creators trying to show blood and gore and get away with it by having a healing factor something that seems to stem from being censored from doing so. If they did that only once or twice and have the other just been minor or moderate injuries I don't think it would have been a problem. Sometimes I feel like creators need trope readers to let them know when something is over the top.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols
posted @ Fri, Apr 15, 2022 12:25:03 am EDT from 72.95.140.30

[SPOILER] It's just very othering, I think. Sure, there are moments with Amistad I recognize from my own life. But watching them in the episode, I don't get the sense the audience is meant to relate to the spark of joy in a stim, or the distress of someone wearing obnoxiously heavy perfume, or the comfort and satisfaction of following a pattern - the only thing we're supposed to relate to is Rocket's stress and annoyance. I see these things I feel, and I see them framed like they're a joke, or an embarassment, or an inconvenience. Any accuracy just makes it sting more. It doesn't even really seem like Rocket gets why these things matter to her kid, she's just resigned to them. And sure, that's realistic, but kind of in the worst way. Growing up knowing very precisely the difference between being tolerated and being accepted, or that far-off dream of being welcomed, I'd hoped the heroes I saw would see autistic traits as just another part of another hero. And why not? Conner's worn the same shirt for ten years straight, M'gann has an encyclopedic knowledge of a one-season sitcom from the 70s, Kaldur can't stand to be in the same room as popcorn, Bart couldn't sit still if his life depended on it, Tara's stone faced and speaks as rarely as she can - it didn't seem that far fetched. But when we actually got one with the word 'autistic' attached, then nope. All those things that are character traits are a burden and irritation, now. The one compliment we hear about Amistad is hearsay, and stereotypical - another savant kid, I guess, and even the space gods suck at acceptance. Except Lightray, maybe.

And - hell, if we were going to have an autistic kid, there's other things to talk about. Especially a black autistic kid. Nothing about how Amistad's teachers have been writing him off as a troublemaker and Raquel and her husband had to fight to get them to recognize that his brain is wired differently, nothing about them having to constantly make sure the program the school wants to put him in isn't compliance training that even a dog trainer wouldn't put an animal through, nothing about the incredibly high rates of violence or murder black autistic people face from the police - I know that's dark, but still. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 10:29:19 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

..... OK then.

[SPOILER] Well, small things first. I largely enjoyed the New Genesis portion of the plot, seeing how the peace conference goes should be interesting. Lor-Zod seems interesting, and his dad is a neat plot hook. Poor Conner is getting mind-whammied hard, and I guess he's going to get pulled back to himself by the power of love and friendship? The hallucination with Lex was genuinely creepy.

So. Now onto the reason we suddenly got a lot of questions about Amistad, I guess. This is going to sound harsh, but... this is pretty much exactly what I was hoping YJ wouldn't do, if it ever had a canonically autistic character. I'd hoped, if it happened, it would be one of the heroes, an adult or young adult, maybe one we'd already seen (in the chats I've had with other autistic people about the show, characters like Conner, Kaldur, or Tara are usual ones to make headcanons for.) And... it's another six year old boy, who screams and says rude things and is generally an inconvenience on the parent and surrounding people. And sure, there's cute bits like the hand-patting - but going by the sad strings on Rocket's look back as she leaves, that's a poor substitute for 'real' (read: neurotypical-style) affection. Even things like Amistad being overwhelmed by perfume is mostly framed as a problem for Rocket needing to excuse her child. And... man, I can't overstate how much I wanted the first autistic character on this show to be an adult who's the expert on their own mind and gets respect from people around them. And so far it looks like they're setting up Orion to be the 'adult autistic' - but I'm less than enthused about that when he's being set up as an angry jerk who needs to be corrected by his parents and whose meltdowns are being connected pretty directly to him being the son of space Satan. Couldn't we get an autistic adult who's learned their limits, gets respect for those limits from those around them, who has deep passion for their interests and takes joy in things others overlook, who goes through life in a way that's odd to others but still deserves respect?

... given how the writers course corrected after S3, knowing their good intentions had still caused harm, I just hope that if there's an S5 the crew will bring on consultants from self-advocacy groups like ASAN, and autistic writers as well. The opening scene here basically made it impossible for me to enjoy the rest of the episode, and I hope the crew add more autistic characters. There's an ocean of stories about autistic kids from the POV of the long suffering neurotypical parents, I want to see some autistic heroes. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 9:05:49 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

[SPOILER] In the comics, Lor-Zod is the son of General Dru-Zod and Ursa. He hates his father, is adopted by Clark and Lois under the name Christopher Kent, and becomes the new Nightwing. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 8:13:41 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

[SPOILER] I'm gonna be really busy this weekend so I'll just post my thoughts chain of thought style (note these can get glib):

-I kinda get why some people are put off by the writing in season 3/4 (not the "woke" stuff, but the actual scripting). This is written so much more for adults. Rocket's problem here is that she's divorced and needs to show up to school for a meeting about her son. We spend like a good 3 minutes on that, a subplot that's meant to inform Rocket's character; which will probably have *nothing* to do with the A plot.
-I feel like Rocket/Raquel would know what an IEP is... also wow is her personality different here than it was in season 1 or any of her cameos elsewhere.
-As often happens with stuff that's also in the Justice League I am of course unfairly comparing the new Gods characters. The take here is a lot deeper in terms of characterization, Orion being written as being reminiscent of folks with autism is an interesting choice. But Ron Perlman was just so personable in the role. Though in hindsight, the characterization was actually similarly... binary?
-I do like the take on Ma'alefa'ak. I still wish the Martian designs were a bit more diverse, maybe a bit sleeker.
-Good to hear Cree in the show! Always love hearing her these days.
-Also it's an interesting choice to involve Jay Garrick in this storyline. Not sure where that's going.
-I have the mental space for the Superboy plot going on this time I guess, also we're finally getting to the meat of it.
-I'm not sure how to feel about bringing back Dr. Desmond for a single line with... I think Dee Bradley Baker doing a Rene Auberjonois impression? I don't think it was really necessary. Especially since this episode was a tribute to Auberjonois. Appearing? Sure. Speaking? Eeeeh.
-The New God stuff is so insane.
-I... don't know who Lor-zod is. This show's ambition is admirable and probably a lot of fun for fans who know all 1,252 DC comics characters but I think SOMETIMES can get to be a bit much with all the tertiary characters who have speaking roles or are mentioned by name. Obviously this isn't a GREAT example of that, this character is a major villain but I've been re-watching seasons 1-3 with my cousin so it's been on my mind.
-One of our running jokes now is based on that bit at the end of season 3 where the show bothers to basically mention EVERY member of the four Justice League teams. When a simple "we've got every member of the league, the team, the outsiders and otherwise hooked up to this broadcast" would have sufficed. So we'll throw in "I've got Pat Sajak, Darth Vader, Niles Crane and Inspector Gadget all listening in" every so often. I dunno, it makes us laugh.
-Nice way to seed Superman as part of a story by putting him in the credits here after we see General Zod. General Zod has never really been a thing in animation or film since Superman 2 (there were evil Kyroptians in Superman: TAS but they weren't very memorable). And I like the take here.
-The core story has a pretty small cast here. It's about Rocket and Orion. Jay's along for the ride, and Forager is important here obviously.
-I liked this set-up, I think I'm going to enjoy this arc.
[/SPOILER]
Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 3:32:13 pm EDT from 65.95.86.37

[SPOILER] That's really impressive, MD! (nice Digimon handle, by the way) Myself, with the yellow aura in the promo pic, I thought it would be hilarious if it turned out to be a version of Booster Gold. ;) [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 10:29:11 am EDT from 104.228.162.16

[SPOILER] As one of those receiving Masterdramon’s DMs, I can confirm. He did call it. [/SPOILER]
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
"Become a writer; you can be petty." ~~Roshni Chokshi
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 9:34:24 am EDT from 174.210.4.184

Speak for thyself, my good chum...

[SPOILER] I called the Adversary's identity 100% correctly way back during the Mars arc. Didn't post the theory here but I can scrounge up screenshots of my DMs if my honor as an Always Right About Totally Useless Things-guy is called into question, darnnit! [/SPOILER]
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"My mission is to make everyone happy by singing." - Vivy
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 6:31:08 am EDT from 98.150.138.224

Many revelations indeed.
Well, here's my thoughts on episode 18 "Beyond the Grip of the Gods!"

[SPOILER] You know I wanted to reply to Prince Ritji that there's little to indicate that Amistad is autistic just from one line. Well it seems the little guy is and unfortunately most likely on the high end of the spectrum and that takes a long time to adjust to. That's gotta be tough for Raquel considering she and her husband look to be separated and she's overseeing an important delegation.

Which brings up another thing, we've had political conference arc already, seems odd that we're getting another one so soon. Not opposed to that because this will probably offer a great look into the inner workings of New Genesis and the Green Lanterns, but it's still odd. Speaking of which, then New Gods and the Bugs may not be at odds with each other, but there's some serious imbalance between the two and I sure didn't miss those off-hand almost speciest remarks from the New Gods.

And Orion, I had so hoped that he would be an example of nurture overcoming nature but that appears to be a struggle for him. Actually, this could lead to an interesting arc for Raquel, she's quick to stand up for her son when his "outbursts" bring public scorn but refers to Orion as a "monster" after his own outburst. This will be great opportunity for her to realize that she can easily fall into that same trap of public scorn and learn that everyone has their burden to bear and we don't get to choose what sets us off.

And M'comm, Jesus Christ. He was introduced killing two innocent teens to spite his sister and he still finds new ways to get even lower. You know, I don't always mind that the heroes don't always win. The back and forth between them and the Light made for great conflict. But he needs to get his ass kicked. Yesterday.

Speaking of which, we finally have a name to go with our Adversary, Lor-Zod. And man, no wonder no one guessed him. Besides the fact that he's primarily known as an opponent to his father, he's never even had any connection to the Legion. Which reminds me, a shame that Conner just now degraded to his basic programing. Because it looks like the not so good General just got himself a pawn.

Then there's the connection, Lor is working alongside Darkseid but to what end? I have this sneaking suspicion that Apokolips is working with its own outsiders to gain an edge over the Light. And the greater of the two evils may just be spreading their sphere of influence beyond the Light's perspective.

And finally, the memoriam for Rene Auborjonois was nice. Only in it for two episodes but he made such a great first baddie. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 4:09:20 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matthew and B> Also the fact that the two "best" seasons prior to say 2016? Martian discrimination addressed with and Godfrey's bigoted retorts against immigrants from space which was really him just trying to make things difficult for the League, Team and other heroes as his boss is a major alien threat.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 3:24:02 am EDT from 71.93.3.194

Why even bother review bombing the show on Rotten Tomatoes? Who goes to Rotten Tomatoes for television reviews?

Super excited to see what they're doing with Orion and the New Gods.
Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!
posted @ Thu, Apr 14, 2022 1:20:27 am EDT from 65.95.86.37

I liked the ones going, "10 seconds in and it's already stuffed with SJW crap!" which conveniently ignores that the first 10 seconds of season 4 is that make-up M'gann and Conner had in season 3.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 11:24:07 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Non-cis gender identities aren't a brand new concept either. A number of Native American peoples had/have roles for trans or non-binary people.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 9:48:57 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

Although I must say that it's hilarious these "anti-woke" complaints are coming out of the woodwork now when (A) Kaldur and Wyynde were already shown kissing last season, (B) Atlantis is a Greco-Roman-based society! i.e. civilizations that historically assumed bisexuality to be the default, at least for men. The Doctor Who episode "The Eaters of Light" was right about that.
B
B
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 9:42:52 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

It's weird how Gwen's death retroactively changed the way people think of her. She's seen as a symbol of lost innocence more than a character. But if you read her earliest appearances, she's more like the type of blonde ice queen that Hitchcock loved. The Romita era softened her considerably; she gradually became a standard Silver Age girlfriend whose main function was to complicate the hero's life. It's understandable that Gerry Conway was bored of writing for her.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com']
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 9:16:56 pm EDT from 98.48.118.192

I'm excited for [SPOILER] Tomar-Re! Or maybe Tomar-Tu, if they want to do a legacy thing? Either way, I'm delighted he's the first GL we'll get to spend significant time with - the Four Corpsmen are great and all, but I have a ton of affection for the non-2814 Lanterns. I'd love to see Mogo one day. Or heck, Saint Walker. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 7:35:20 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

[SPOILER] Can't wait for that fifth arc! I was expecting it would be Nightwing before Rocket. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 7:20:00 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

Not to mention, isn't it still in the top 5 for viewership on HBO Max? It had the top slot for a bit there, as I recall.
Karrin Blue
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posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 7:15:08 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

Young Justice is getting review bombed.
And it's still well above average.

Trolls really need to work on something more productive. Or at the very least not be so obvious in their bigotry.
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 6:15:04 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Let's all just make a pact to ignore comments like those so as not to feed them.
B - [brownie2 at buffalo dot edu]
B
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 6:13:22 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

Young Justice is getting review bombed on Rotten Tomatoes. And deservedly so. Go woke, go broke. I hope Greg and Brandon bask in the reverence of all the weirdos they are pandering to and it's worth throwing this once amazing show to the shitter.
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 5:49:53 pm EDT from 103.192.80.236

@Karrin: [SPOILER] That's an interesting point; I'd say he did want Arion "back" in some way but it was less a do-over and more a proof that he was right to sink it over the original Arion's objections all along. Vandal's motivations always have to be looked at through an egocentric lens. [/SPOILER]

[SPOILER] I'm hoping the new Lantern is Jessica Cruz, since I'm familiar with her from DC Super Hero Girls. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 12:40:02 pm EDT from 104.228.162.16

Is Amistad Ervin autistic?
Prince Ritji - [jrgontor at gmail dot com]
gontor
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 12:16:39 pm EDT from 198.209.162.137

This isn't the ask queue, this is the comment room. And... I mean, he could be, I guess? There's a good few characters on the show you could read as neurodivergent, certainly. Though since Amistad is a toddler who's only had one line, I don't think we can figure much of anything about him.
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Wed, Apr 13, 2022 9:06:28 am EDT from 64.251.62.62

is Raquel's son, Amistad Autstic?
Prince Ritji - [jrgontor at gmail dot com]
gontor
posted @ Tue, Apr 12, 2022 9:42:07 pm EDT from 192.190.140.23

Gwen Stacy's a weird one 'cuz she's one of the very first (if not THE first) examples of a hero's love interest being killed off in mainstream superhero comics, long before it became a lazy shortcut to cheap angst.

In other news, poster for the next YJP arc just dropped...

https://i0.wp.com/www.supermanhomepage.com/clickandbuilds/SupermanHomepage/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/YJPhantoms-Arc5-Poster.jpg?resize=1080%2C1080&ssl=1
Algae
"People get built different. We don't need to figure it out, we just need to respect it." - Princess Bubblegum
posted @ Tue, Apr 12, 2022 3:54:42 pm EDT from 217.183.44.235

Alex> I know in Amazing Spider-Man 2 they were supposed to introduce Mary Jane, even had Shailene Woodley in the role, but they got so caught up in Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone's chemistry that they cut all of her scenes. But yes, Gwen is primarily known for her tragic end, hence why people expect it so much.

Karrin> Considering that "Schwarz" "Wald" and "Vogel" are very distinctly German, I can't begin to comprehend why they thought it was an analogue to Russia. Even with the organized crime (like that makes it make anymore sense).
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Tue, Apr 12, 2022 12:37:08 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Matthew> I know you're saying the story itself is well told/different (which I can't speak to -- I mean I think it's still a problem as a rule but I don't know the particulars), but I think a lot of the problems with fridging women come from the general reaction, even the fact that Amazing Spider-man 2 felt the need to recreate that moment just because people were actively looking for it/expecting it because it was famous.

And that applies to Arkham Knight too. They just kind of stuck a whole series of scenes with the Joker branding Jason with a cattle prod because... I don't know. I don't understand what that sort of dark violence adds to a story really. Under the Red Hood, which covered the same material did it in a much more intelligent way I thought.

Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago myself and one of my best friends started a podcast where we focus on analyzing a single episode of a show. Right now we're going through Neon Genesis Evangelion, but I might try to do some other stuff focusing on other properties as well.
Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2022 11:18:56 pm EDT from 65.95.86.37

....huh, I never actually posted my thoughts on last week's episode! Whoops.

[SPOILER] I enjoyed it! I was very glad to see I called Mera being King - and Arthur's monologue about how his wife is great and everyone knows it was pretty great. The clone-Orm reveal was also interesting, and I hope he comes back and takes Arthur up on that offer of brotherhood. Nice to see that Arthur is the kind of person who doesn't hesitate to let him go, either. He's a hero for a reason! I am a bit confused as to why Psimon couldn't get a more up to date brain scan off Orm-in-Arion, though - but there's already a question about that in the queue, so we'll see.

RIP actual Orm, though. And what a way to go. I'm kind of curious to see if that itself tipped the balance of power for Order and Chaos - if I understand right, the Order Lords (Lorders?) Invested a very significant chunk of power into the crown, then reclaimed it - so if they were balanced before, does that mean they've suddenly got an unexpected surplus of mojo? That might have implications for future plot developments.

Also nice to see Vandal start to crack. I wonder if, subconsciously, he'd thought of this as a do-over for the failures of the original sinking of Atlantis. He had his son back, in a way, doing what he wanted - and then it was all for nothing, and his other son showed up to rub it in his face and reject him again, after they'd seemed to agree only a month ago. That has to be rough, psychologically.

Speaking of rough psychological stuff... oh, Kaldur. I enjoyed the sneaky callback to Downtime, too, where he quoted Batman. It probably wasn't even conscious, either. Though I'm a bit surprised - given the first 3 episodes, and Wyynde's bit talking to La'gann, I was expecting Kaldur to need some big cathartic breakdown before he'd actually step back, but he did as soon as Arthur and La'gann became the other two Aquamen. Though Kaldur actually being 100% honest when he says he knows he needs rest but he'll do it when things calm down, and following through, is just about typical for him, isn't it. And the credits scene! I wonder if Khary came up with how it would sound first and wrote the scene around the delivery he wanted to do - the little indrawn breath at the beginning, the something rather stupid - the voice acting really is incredible there. Abd I'm glad he's talking about it, too. Especially because - well, Jason was almost certainly an awful and senseless tragedy, but Tula, Conner, and Wally were all adults, if young, when they died, and died knowing that they were choosing to put themselves at risk to protect people, and succeeded. It's terrible that they were in that situation, but they did choose it, and it wouldn't be hubris on Kaldur's part that put them there. But at the same time, he's talking to Dinah, in therapy, and that is exactly when you're supposed to dredge up all the illogical things you think about yourself and examine them. So I hope he gets the help he's seeking. [/SPOILER]

>Matthew: Honestly, TVTropes is pretty hit or miss with that kind of thing. I find it useful when I'm really particularly in the mood for a certain plot device or setup and want a list of things that use it, but one time I saw it say that a fictional location in a fantasy series called the Schwarzwald, home of characters with names like Vogel, was an analogue for Russia... because some organized crime came from there. A setting which also had an entirely separate fictional country with characters named 'Koschei' 'Andrey' and 'Nadezhda.' And even just in YJ, I'm pretty sure Terra's profile still has an entry calling her a bitch for working with Slade, and when it turned out she was mostly a kind and caring abused teenager, it wasn't removed, and just had a 'subverted' sub-entry added. [SPOILER] If I had to guess, it comes from things like Delphis giving Kaldur a kiss on the cheek in S3, or them going to the algae bar together. Though personally, I didn't get that impression they were romantically together either - more like a slightly younger adult sister hanging out with her brother and his partner. [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue
.
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2022 9:40:58 pm EDT from 68.9.91.142

I know the story about Gwen Stacy's death only by reputation, but I saw a sort of parody of it once which cast Disney characters in the leads (Mickey Mouse as Spiderman, Pete as the Green Goblin, and Goofy as Gwen Stacy). I can't recall, unfortunately, whether that appeared before or after Disney acquired Marvel.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2022 9:05:19 pm EDT from 70.176.217.135

As I said, what sets "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" apart from the usual women in refrigerators is that the fallout wasn't reduced to one character's angst but affected a lot of different characters and in some cases, caused them to grow for the better.

Anyways. I have tempted to start a TvTropes account so I could correct some really odd takeaways. [SPOILER] Like at the end of "Leviathan Wakes", who actually thought that Dolphin was suddenly in a relationship with Kaldur and Wyynde? Like, what would suggest that they've suddenly become a polyamorous group? [/SPOILER]
Matthew
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2022 6:18:08 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

(Second?)

I don't know if I have a problem with the Death of Gwen Stacy, to be honest I haven't read it. Though I think there is this weird macabre obsession with "when is Gwen Stacy gonna die?" in the fandom any time she shows up in other media. And it's a weird thing, specifically in comics where they have been able to kill off characters to kill off the nice girl.

As to Arkham Knight, Arkham Knight tries to justify it with it being a major theme of the actual story. Like "Batman's allies keep getting hurt so he isolates himself from them" and they do this by using "A Death in the Family" and "The Killing Joke", but then they ALSO [SPOILER] do a subplot where Barbara Gordon gets kidnapped and a scarecrow illusion makes it look like she shot herself. [/SPOILER]

And then there's an implication in the game's additional material that the Joker attacked a preschool and used the dead bodies of the preschoolers to make a jungle gym. WHich is so gross and way too far.
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2022 2:44:00 pm EDT from 65.95.86.37

First! For the first time I think.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols
posted @ Mon, Apr 11, 2022 1:34:53 am EDT from 72.95.140.30