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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 26, 2022

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" (And Heimdall was also described as sleepless, which wouldn't fit a gargoyle.)"

Actually it would, since he's either awake or standing guard as a statue.


Yeah don't worry about the trolls, wild speculation is a common occurrence here anyway.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

PRINCE RITJI> Hey Ritji, welcome to the Comment Room. Please don't mind the trolls.
'nuff said

Prince Ritji > No one cares about your dumb ideas. Get your autism in check.

I think the next seasons of Young Justice will look like if Warner Bros discovery will not cancel it:
Predictions for YJ Season 5
•I think the title of Season 5 will be called Young Justice Armageddon.
•it will be the final season of the Young
•it will be a three year time jump
•the main villain will be Darkseid and his apokoliptian forces
•Lex Luthor resigned from the Light and joined the Justice League.
•Wally West will Return
•Conner and Megan are having a baby
•most YJ characters will be killed in this season
• the number of episodes will be 27
•the light is disbanded because of Vandal Savage's death
•Geo Force is going through a redemption arc
•Halo and Cyborg are pivotal roles for the final season
•The good and bad guys are working together to fight Darkseid.
•Beast Boy has joined the Justice League
•Wonder Girl is the leader of the Outsiders
•the heroes must reveal a ancient secrets that will stop Darkseid and save the planet
•Darkseid has invaded Earth
•in the future, new generation of young heroes foll
•a new justice league will emerged from the old one
°|New characters for Young Justice season 5|:
1.Jessica Cruz
2.Simon Baz
3.Harley Quinn
5.John Constantine
6.Doctor Light/Kimiyo Hoshi
8.Sinestro and the Yellow Lantern Corps
12.Reverse Flash
14.members of the Global Guardians
15.members of the Blood Syndicate
17.the Rogues
19.Booster Gold & Skeets
20.Rip Hunter
21.Peter Gambi
23. Future versions of the justice league's children
24.the Monitor [spoiler]

Prince Ritji - [jg0930047 at otc dot edu]

MATTHEW - I'd forgotten about that part. Of course, it might simply be another case of "All things are true; few things are accurate". (And Heimdall was also described as sleepless, which wouldn't fit a gargoyle.)
Todd Jensen

Jeeeeeezzz. Ask Greg has been so caustic and accusatory lately. I get that religion and sexuality are touchy subjects and people are entitled to their feelings, but not even an ounce of grace or courtesy. Manners cost nothing, you know.

Okay. So I'm gonna try breaking down each arc and what I thought of it.

Arc 1 - Mars (M'gann/Beast Boy/Connor)

I'm gonna start off by saying what I thought of the actual breakdown of the season and how the arcs were handled. One thing I love about Young Justice is how each year feels really different. There's either a major time skip or there's a totally new structure, or tone, and I think this season did that very well.

Having said that, I had a few quibbles here. I think that because the seasons were so segmented in terms of characters used and location, I KINDA wish the arcs had maybe been a little shorter, with more room for one off stories in-between and room for more intrigue. Some of the arcs felt a little long-winded, and felt like the stories would have benefited from a bit of tightening in regards to the narrative.

But ultimately I did like that we got a little spotlight for each OG team member and how distinct each arc felt from the others.

Now onto the actual arc.

I LOVE the locale for this one. The take on Mars as a society was so cool. I like the caste system the Martians have, and I love the different idiosyncrasies of what makes their society work. There's also a nice little story about Connor meeting his in-laws properly, which I thought was sweet.

I also love M'gann's new design. Something about it just worked really well.

The Legion stuff worked fairly well as a plot hook. It's basically the thing that carries us through the whole season, so it had to be fairly strong, and I think it... mostly worked well. It's a bit amusing to me that combined Phantom Girl, Chameleon Boy and Saturn Girl don't have the full powers of a single Martian, but I did like their byplay. (Also we find out later Chameleon Boy is kind of messed up, but it's really underplayed and I kinda love that)

The political machinations stuff was great as always. I don't know if this is a solvable whodunit necessarily, but I loved all of the pieces. The Romeo and Juliet romance turned murderous, the machinations of the different factions. That all worked really well. I think the sort of stereotypical evil vizier bigot character Troy Baker was playing was a *bit* too rote for me, but he was probably necessary for the story being told. Also the actual elements of the mystery were very well done. The whole thing made a lot of sense.

I had some issues with M'comm. Firstly, because they're so alien and strange I *did* have trouble distinguishing which Martian was which a lot of the time. This is probably something that'll be fixed with a rewatch, but I really think M'comm would have benefited from a more distinctive design. Also while I like the character a lot in terms of his parts, I think it would have been helpful to see more colours and sides to M'Comm. He's in the season a lot, and while I love his concept, I love his cunning, Ben Diskin was a great casting choice and I love his backstory, I really feel like it would have been cool to see more sides to M'Comm -- what do his underlings think of him? His family? What's pushed him to the lengths he goes to? Not just hear him talking to M'Gann about it, but maybe seeing it in some more tangible way. If he had just been a one-off villain for this arc, I think what we got would have been fine, but he was really one of the primary antagonists for the whole season and he's just kind of miserable and cruel.

The only other moment that really bugged me was when Em'ree and M'gann are fighting, and M'Gann's mother says something along the lines of M'gann's human-like form being her "primary" form I suppose. I felt like this moment was being explained to me logically, when what I really wanted was to *feel* this moment, but I felt like instead it was being logically explained to me.

I think the social justice aspect of the story was... fine. I think this is a very difficult thing to cover well. Especially when you're dealing with aliens and magic. This is both a Romeo and Juliet story, but it's also a story about prejudice and racial inequality and it's all very surface level because there's just no room or time to have all these things line up naturally with the Legion plot, the M'Comm plot, the zeta tube plot, the wedding plot. This is sort of where I think maybe segmenting these into separate into individual stories/episodes a little more might have worked better. Give us as an audience more time to absorb and embrace things.

But well, even having said all that, I still REALLY loved this arc. I just loved this take on Mars.

Alex (or Aldrius)
Check out my anime podcast "Two Gays One Episode" on Spotify or YouTube!

He'll have to have a pretty pale complexion. Unless you decide to use his stone sleep as an explanation for his "whitest of the Aesir" description.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

A creativity demon I've had for a while about Norse mythology in the Gargoyles Universe: Heimdall was really a gargoyle. Not only would the "guarding Asgard's gates" be a very appropriate function for a gargoyle, but it would explain the "nine mothers" business.
Todd Jensen

On the topic of Norse myth, Marvel's Avengers just released a new comic-style trailer featuring Lady Thor.
And yes, this game has done barely anything to justify its existence but I thought I'd bring it up as it stars Zehra Fazal as Jane Foster.


When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Yeah, the old Norse "Jötunn" might better have been translated as "freaky shapeshifting chaos monster".
'nuff said

I've seen it speculated that "Jotnar" was translated as "giants" because the translators saw them as analogous to the Giants that fought against the Olympian gods in Greek mythology.
Todd Jensen

Plus they're both known to change shape.

Yeah, in Norse mythology giants aren't necessarily huge and dwarfs aren't necessarily small. Those are just the names of the races.

The myth even crops up outside Europe in at least two other examples: Marduk overthrowing Tiamat, and the gods of India versus the Rakshasas.
Todd Jensen

The Jotnar's size seems to vary in the Norse myths; Ymir, the first of them, is large enough that Odin can make the world out of his remains, but other Jotnar (particularly the female ones whom the gods mate with) are apparently human-sized.

Oberon's overthrow of Queen Mab, from what little we know of it, seems to be the Gargoyles Universe version of those myths (with the astonishing part being that, based on Greg Weisman's hints, it appears to have taken place well after a lot of those myths wee recorded; it seems to have taken place after the birth of Merlin in the fifth century).

Todd Jensen

Heck, the Greek gods had to do it twice. First the Titans then the Giants.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

You could spin it so that "jotnar" is just a word Scandinavians use the way English speakers use "giant," both words describing the same thing.

That is a recurring motif in a lot of European myth: gods vs. Titans, gods vs. Jotnar, Tuatha de Danann vs. Fomorians, etc. etc. Some think it's meant to represent humans establishing civilization amidst the fury of primal nature or somesuch.

Friendly CIA Spook
Pay no attention to the astigmatism behind the sunglasses

Thanks for the heads up Algae.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

MATTHEW> FYI, I left a PM for you on FF.net
'Nuff said

Not published - and I'm not certain about submitting it for publication, because it overlaps (kind of) with a different story I've been working on (at hold at present) in a way that might make it harder to publish that story. (It's complicated.)
Todd Jensen

Fanfic or published?

I noticed a few giants in Oberon's throne room in "The Gathering", but I don't know if they were meant to be Jotnar or not. Greg Weisman's hinted that a small-scale version of Ragnarok took place in the Gargoyles Universe's past, not big enough to destroy the world as in the familiar Norse myths, but big enough to ensure a lot of casualties among the "Norse mythology" cast (and ensure that there were no gargoyles left in Scandinavia - I suspect that they inspired the myths about trolls, especially the part about turning to stone in the daytime).

(I might add that a few years back, I wrote a retelling of the Norse myths which included a couple of little "Gargoyles" hommages. I squashed the temptation to show Odin's eye turning into a jewel after he surrendered it to Mimir, but I did model Utgard-Loki's speech to Thor about what was really behind his humiliations - you'll know what I mean if you've read the original story - on Xanatos's "what my real plan was" speeches, to the point where I imagined him sounding like Jonathan Frakes (and Thor in that scene sounding like Keith David as Goliath). I also played with modeling Loki and Heimdall's fight to the death at Ragnarok upon Xanatos and Hudson's battle in "Future Tense", but it didn't work out.)

Todd Jensen

Looks like an interesting series, especially the bit with the woman who's convinced she's a Valkyrie.

This also brings up an interesting thought, how does the world of Norse myth work in the world of Gargoyles? We know of Odin and the Aesir, but what about the rest? The Vanir are another mystery. I could imagine the Valkyrie having some connection to the Children of Oberon, and the Jotnar I would guess being Children/human hybrids in the same vein as the New Olympians.

Things to consider. And in the meantime, Happy Solstice everyone!

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

How to plan or came up or write ideas for episodes on tv or chapters in books and graphic novels?
John Paul Gontor - [jrgontor at gmail dot com]

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to wish the comment room a happy summer solstice - which, for the gargoyles, means the longest sleep of the year.
Todd Jensen

I just found out that Image Comics is coming out with a new series called "Beware the Eye of Odin", with a Norse mythology setting. I wonder whether this Eye will also be literally that (the eye Odin gave up for a drink from Mimir's well - a major and well-known element of Norse myth, after all) - though if it is, we can be certain that the rules for it will be different. (And coming out not long after the Eye's cameo-of-a-sort in "Young Justice".)
Todd Jensen

I've been enjoying Batman: Wayne Family Adventures on webtoons a lot: https://www.webtoons.com/en/slice-of-life/batman-wayne-family-adventures/list?title_no=3180&page=1

So anyone read comics from Webtoons?

- Mage & Demon Queen: https://m.webtoons.com/en/comedy/mage-and-demon-queen/list?title_no=1438

Fun RPGesque type story where Adventurer Maori seeks out the Demon Queen Velverosa. Not to defeat or kill, but to get together with her.

- High Class Homos: https://m.webtoons.com/en/comedy/high-class-homos/list?title_no=2723

Centers around Prince August and Princess Sapphia who seek to have a [SPOILER] Sham [/SPOILER] marriage as they are both [SPOILER] gay [/SPOILER].


ALGAE - Well, maybe a more accurate description of it would be "unauthorized sequel". (And after my original post, that description of Don Quixote denouncing it conjured up an image of the Manhattan gargs visiting a video store, finding a video there of "The Goliath Chronicles" - yes, I know it never actually got one - and making similar disapproving remarks about it; not a completely accurate parallel, of course, since "The Goliath Chronicles" was made by Disney, but otherwise a similar feel.)

MATTHEW - Good question. I haven't seen "Man of La Mancha" myself, which limits my ability to speculate on that.

Todd Jensen

I'm pretty curious on how he'd react to Man of La Mancha.
Both Cervantes and Goliath for that matter.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

TODD> Cervantes is lucky he lived in a less litigious time. Otherwise, he'd probably have gotten in trouble reading fanfic based on his own work.
'Nuff said


Returning to my thoughts on Goliath discovering and reading works of classic literature after his awakening.

The next name on Greg Weisman's list of "classic authors", chronologically, was Cervantes, author of "Don Quixote". His work, of course, is famous for satirizing the knightly romance almost out of existence. Reading it might have been a different experience for Goliath than for most others, since the genre that Cervantes was poking fun at didn't even exist yet in 994. (At least, not the real 994. The fact that the King Arthur of the Gargoyles Universe was a lot closer to his depiction in the medieval romances than the Arthur of actual history, if he existed, could make a case for chivalric romance beginning earlier in the Gargoyles Universe - alongside stone castles in tenth century Scotland - but let's not dwell too much on that.)

While I'm not sure what Goliath would have made of "Don Quixote", it has a peculiar (but perhaps appropriate) feature in its second half. Cervantes wrote it in two parts, the second part published ten years after the first. At the start of the second part, Don Quixote and his friends discuss the reception of Part One, which produces a strange feeling - the book existing within the very fictional universe it creates. (But, given that this is a story about a man who has difficulty telling real life apart from fiction, it might be fitting.) To top it off, during the ten years between the two parts, somebody wrote a really bad fanfic sequel to Part One; Part Two has a scene where Don Quixote visits a bookshop, notes the terrible fanfic on sale there, and immediately delivers a very disapproving speech about it.

Todd Jensen