Re:The Owl House [SPOILER] Yes, the TV Tropes Wiki recap page for the next episode pointed that out. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Sun, Feb 5, 2023 9:41:25 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

ANTIYONDER - [SPOILER] I hadn't noticed the difference. I'll have to rewatch both of those episodes now and look for it.

Incidentally, I was rereading "The Shakespeare Almanac" today, and came across an excerpt from a letter by a certain Edward Sherburne to a John Chamberlain, written in 1617, which talked about the making of pancakes, and spoke of "the form of a Flapjack, which in our translation is called a Pancake". Meaning that Philip and Caleb's being familiar with "flapjack" as another word for "pancake" is historically accurate, though I don't know if the production team was aware of that or not. Sherburne appears to have disapproved of pancakes, by the way, particularly describing the hissing noise they make while being cooked as "like the Lernean snakes in the reeds of Acheron, Styx, or Phlegethon". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Feb 5, 2023 7:45:26 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] To show my ignorance, not sure, but possibly. Incidentally given Luz's promise by the end of Yesterday's Lie, did you pick up on the recapped version in Follies where we get Luz's recollection of it (Where she remembers her mom making her promise not to go back to that place VS her asking Luz to stay with her)? That to me was another detail I feel even currently that made me unsure that Luz's choice will be sad/bittersweet [/SPOILER].
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Feb 5, 2023 9:56:20 am EST from 71.84.183.196

[SPOILER] I've wondered whether the sword or dagger hanging over the head of Caleb's ghost in "For the Future" was a nod to Shakespeare's "Macbeth". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Feb 5, 2023 8:53:15 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Todd Jensen and B> [SPOILER] So evening without Thanks to Them and Reaching Out, I don't know. You think the fact we know that Mr. Noceda is absent arguably makes Camila's reaction at the end of YL feel more natural?

Also despite my more optimistic leanings I do enjoy the heavy dark stuff even dark comedy so to speak. One of such being Harvester of Eyes' Demona fic from a long time back.

You know, the Christmas Carol one where the three Ghosts try to divert her from the current path she is on and fail miserably?

Even before S3, I had it in my head that Belos would be another Ebenezer who couldn't change, and seeing his response to a ghost from the past, yeah he would ultimately scare the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 11:24:57 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

Matthew> At any rate, if you didn't check the Spoilers they will be safe at the end of Season 2, but I'll share them along with certain eps.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 8:51:00 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

Antiyonder> Gotta love stupid long hiatuses.
I think that despite her initial anger over Luz's word about staying there, Camila did a sudden 180 because she felt that she was the reason that Luz ran away in the first place. So when she pleads that things will be different, she's promising her daughter that she'll be more attentive to her needs and interests even while making Luz promise to leave the Boiling Isles permanently. It's amazing that one episode basically made one character, who in terms of the story acted something like a threshold guardian, and made her a very emotionally complex person.

And I just noticed how much I flubbed the italics. Brilliant.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 8:09:28 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Matthew> As for Luz having permanently leave the Isles for this promise? Even at the time that this was the last episode for a while, that was a major debate point. Basically this first aired August of 2021 and the next set started around the end of March 2022. Ouch.

Keep in mind that the sore point with Camila is the lack of context behind Luz saying "Staying here was the best decision I ever made." and ironically not understanding that she is the only reason her daughter is trying at all to get back.

Also cheating a little, but will still take certain precautions.

Before the next episode aired, some charity livestreams provided advanced details.

Willow and Amity for example [SPOILER] are still distant, which will be evident in your next episode. Though we got kind of a hint of such with the former mentioning that it's weird that her former friend is spending more time with the group. [/SPOILER]

Not so focused on, but Lilith is [SPOILER] Asexual [/SPOILER].

And it has more significance than one might think, but the name of Hunter's Palisman is [SPOILER] Flapjack [/SPOILER]. Infact, [SPOILER] Hunter upon asking Belos what a flapjack is (which he claims to have heard the human saying) is told what the word means and we get a canonical cuss from him after being unable to get more info from his Palisman. "Damn you pancakes" [/SPOILER]!!!!!
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 7:35:54 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

I like to imagine Eda was taken in by all the lights and spectacle and then being disappointed that it's just window dressing for gambling houses. Figuring why would they need all this space when all you need is a card table and a dark alleyway to hide from the authorities.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 4:58:19 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Oh and much like Adventure Time, I never did heavily keep up with Steven Universe back when it was current.

Remeding that now with a binge. And I will be going for the DVD set in a few months.

And hey, Vee's VA Michaela Dietz voiced the Crystal Gem Amethyst.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 12:08:36 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

Matthew> Also Eda's alias yep a call back to the hinted connection between TOH and Gravity Falls as someone who married Stan just to rob him blind in Vegas.

A Q&A after TOH S1 even had Dana stating that Eda went to Vegas, and was unimpressed.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 12:05:08 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review. Your remark about "you know you have a quality show" certainly reminds me of "City of Stone" in "Gargoyles", which has that same attribute - the focus is on Demona and Macbeth rather than on the clan, but I barely noticed it while watching it, and it's one of my favorites.

According to the ending credits, the conspiracy theorist curator's surname was "Hopkins". I wonder whether that was intended as a reference to Matthew Hopkins, the infamous seventeenth century witch-hunter. [SPOILER] Especially in light of certain later developments.... [/SPOILER] And the details of his theory about witches entering Gravesfield were one of the funniest moments in the episode.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 7:43:27 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Save it for Queen Dopplepopolis, doppelganger!

Watched "Yesterday's Lie" and I remembered something I heard a long time ago, I don't know where. You know you have a quality show if an episode can barely feature your main characters but the story is still engaging. In this case we catch up on our world in all the normalcies and abnormalities in it.

For starters, I'm glad that we're catching up with Camila Noceda, we haven't seen much of her which is interesting since her decision to send Luz to camp was in part, what set this plot into motion. What I also like about this episode is that it also fleshed out her complexities; as a single mom, Camila is a loving supportive figure in Luz's life. But at the same time, it's clear that the two haven't gelled properly. Camila is serious, down-to-earth and responsible and what's her daughter to grow up to be the same. Luz's overactive imagination unfortunately set her apart in school and if that griffon project is any indication, got her in trouble as well. So naturally she'd want to direct Luz away from things that just ended up getting her into trouble, misguided as it may be. A nice detail was that Luz and her mother are both good natured souls to those in need and willing to step up to defend the helpless. We've already seen Luz's own journey in-progress of being a good witch (with or without a dark side to be determined). And Camila, despite being even less prepared for being thrust into the weirdness of the Boiling Isles, once she sees a poor animal that's been hurt or abused, the veterinarian and maternal it's time to bring out la chancla and lay the smackdown on some fool.

Leading up to this episode one thing I have to point out that they did a good fakeout in the long run. We think Camila was sobbing over her lost daughter, but it's actually over an animal documentary and there's a shadowy doppelganger living Luz's life. "Luz" is seen throwing away little things that almost certainly have sentimental value to Luz, but it turns out that Vee's just a lonely creature who never had anything close to love or care in her life and this wasn't a case of usurping her life but an impulsive act because she didn't want to keep running. The curator has a lot of information of "Marilyn" and knows about demons, enough to start making traps all around town and a full conspiracy that suggests he knows more than even our protagonists. But no, he's just an idiot. Actually a nice detail was the hints and plot hooks dropped even during the most innocuous of exposition, sometimes obvious like Vee being given a designated number and not so obvious like Philip Wittebane having a twin brother...

To conclude, I have to bring up the last bit of dialogue between mother and daughter and what that means for the two of them. Luz for all intents meant to tell her mother about the Demon Realm when she had the ability to move between the two worlds. But now the illusion is broken and in a way that doesn't benefit either of them, Luz is still stuck on the Boiling Isles and Camila now has to face all the insanity of their situation. What's worse is that Luz has to face the fact that while she got to the Demon Realm more by happenstance than choice, she still chose to keep staying there and ran away from the normalcy of life she didn't fit in with. And Camila has to face the fact that for months now a stranger was living her daughter's life and all that was needed to convince her was for Vee to behave like the responsible young woman that Camila hoped she would be. And no matter how much Luz has grown to be a brave and resourceful young woman, her Mami is still hurt by her running away and it pains her to think she was responsible for that. Luz might've learned why the heroes of those stories always come back to the real world at the end of their adventures. Not because they want to, but because someone close to them needs them to come back.

Some final thoughts: Man, the rats of NIMH have nothing on the ones that have tasted the bread of wisdom. I'd say they're both equally freaky though. I love the look of this...world between worlds kinda trippy in a fascinating way. Oh, I've seen plantains before, they should not be that yellow. Actually I'm not big on fried plantains, lot of my family members love em though. So Luz is from Gravesfield? That's certainly macabre, maybe it's Connecticut's equivalent to Salem. And don't think I didn't notice that Luz had a bunkbed, I can very much see her wanting to keep Vee around as a sister. And then there's the matter of portals, they've used one finger on this failed attempt and there's only so much Titan's blood soaked glove to work with, if they're hoping to beat Belos they're going to have to step up.

Favorite Lines:

Eda: Are you sure this isn't gonna like, blow our faces off?
Luz: Nope!
Eda: Well, here goes something.

Camila: Luz? Está todo bien?
Luz: Sí, Mama! I just saw a spoiler from Monster Slayer Academia!
(beat)
Camila: I'll never understand anime.

Camila: Stop! Uh, the... the President just called. Yeah, and, uh...Y'know what? I don't have the imagination for this. I will be taking this innocent child with me, and you will never[i] bother us again.
Jacob: What? No absolutely not! We made a verbal agreement—
Camila: Mister. You better back the heck down, or I will tell the police you have been illegally setting up traps and cameras on private property!
Jacob: I won't let you take away my discovery. I'm the good guy here!
Camila: Yeah. [i](pulls out a flip flop) A lot of bad guys say that.

Luz: Mom, you were awesome back there! Thanks for being cool... about everything.
Camila: (tearing up) I'm trying to hold it together... I really am... But I have never been this scared before. A demon realm? Magic? How are you gonna get back here? Is this the only way I can touch you?
(The two of them try to hold hands but they just phase through one another)
Luz: I... I need a little more time, but if I keep working my hardest I will make a working portal, I promise!
Camila: As scary as this is, it really does seem like you've matured.
Luz: Yes! I've learned so much... Staying here was the best decision I ever made.
Camila: You... chose to stay there?
Luz: Oh, uh...
Camila: Were you trying to live out some witch fantasy?! Did you...did you hate living with me that much?[i]
Luz: Mama, no!

[i](Luz suddenly finds herself being pulled back by her attached rope. As she is being pulled down, her image in the human world is being pulled up)

Luz: I'm being pulled back!

(Camila desperately tries to hold onto her daughter)

Camila: Baby? No, no, no, no, no, no...When you come home, promise you'll stay here. I didn't mean to push you away. I swear things will be different!
Luz: (crying) Mom, it's not you, it never was!
Camila: Promise me, Luz... please!
Luz:...Okay, Mom. I promise.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Feb 4, 2023 3:39:40 am EST from 64.85.245.77

The wiki describes him as such, and given he was born in 1917, I'd be more surprised if he was still alive.

https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/Alan_Scott?so=search
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Feb 3, 2023 3:37:52 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

What makes you think Alan Scott is deceased?

I'll admit, before Greg's latest countdown post, my assumption was that Alan was indeed the fourth Green Lantern that Orin mentioned - I thought since Jay joined the League between S3 and S4, Alan likely did as well. Possibly all the living members of the JSA, as a sort of honorary membership. With Jay's super-fast metabolism and Alan's ring allowing them to continue operating in the field on select missions despite being centenarians.

So instead, that leaves...Kyle, Jessica, Jade, Simon, Jennie, or Sojourner, off the top of my head. With Kyle or Jessica being the most likely, I think.

But we'll see how things shake out if we get more canon down the line. Keli would make a great addition to the Team or Outsiders, especially with the increased prominence the Corps got in the last season, and presumably at least one of the League GLs would be her mentor.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa
posted @ Fri, Feb 3, 2023 1:18:13 pm EST from 98.150.138.224

That reminds me, with Alan Scott having passed away in-story that leads to a lot of interest on who the fourth Green Lantern might be.
Kyle Rayner would be a great addition and he really doesn't have near the representation in other media that several other characters have had.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Feb 3, 2023 12:02:02 am EST from 64.85.245.77

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=1307

I am very much flashbacking right now to CONvergence 2014, when Christopher Jones was utterly astounded (and eventually, at a loss for words) when he witnessed just how resilient Greg Weisman was in refusing to answer spoiler-driven questions. Not just online, but in person as well, lol.

Needless to say, this made my day d:
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 11:16:21 pm EST from 68.2.64.232

There's a theory that Alex's Third Race heritage is making him grow up faster (there's precedent for this; medieval legend makes a similar statement about Merlin, for example).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 9:53:29 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

The convo this past week has been really fun to read. Dont have much to contribute atm but the comment about Petros had me wondering if they are Pontic Greek, mostly bc i just got finished reading "The Great Fire" by Lou Ureneck and boy was that was a harrowing read. Also, I am curious to learn more of Elisa's background on her mom's side. The answers could clear up some questions I have had about her characterization.

Also has anyone noticed Alex's eyes are suddenly brown? And he looks like a 4 yr old?
FTMB
FTBM
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 9:22:58 pm EST from 100.36.165.223

I recently read a novel called "The Gargoyle Hunters" by John Freeman Gill. It's about a father-and-son team who go around New York in the 1970's, "rescuing" gargoyles (they used the term loosely, referring to any sculptures, human-like as well as more "gargoyle-ish") from buildings that will soon be torn down - with, of course, the challenge that what they're doing is technically illegal. While this form of gargoyle hunting is being done to save the gargoyles (in contrast to the Hunters in "Gargoyles" - of course, these are the architectural variety of gargoyles rather than the living kind), there's still an indication that it's an unhealthy obsession deep down on the father's part (whose idea it is; the son's helping him in order to get closer to his father rather than out of a passion for saving the gargoyles), and - without giving away too much - leads to its own tragedy. Incidentally, the Alice in Wonderland sculptures that Elisa ran past in "Awakening Part Four" make a brief cameo.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 8:14:25 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

That is true!
watchmen's collective - [andreseduescobar at aol dot com]
DresWatch
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 2:26:19 pm EST from 45.46.42.33

Also important to remember that all Thailog's actions are potentially part of a larger Illuminati plot that he's not aware of. Shari is a high-ranking Illuminatus, with her talents seemingly being wasted just hanging out undercover in the Labyrinth for months, so presumably they have something big in mind for this baby. And for that matter, Shari herself is a very intriguing character who likely hasn't come close to revealing her true nature or potential.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 2:17:42 pm EST from 209.140.41.92

love the gargoyle series
Gravity Walls
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 8:24:50 am EST from 180.191.210.63

To your point Alex and I guess I express this in last post but I don't mean an apex villain just a newer threat that is intriguing or has a falir or purpose. Thailog is very dangerous and has flair but you see him coming you know his endgoal in a way that you don't know say Demona or definitely Xanatos. If Thailog has resources than the Manhattan Clan also has that in sometimes ally Xanatos that is what I mean the clan is biggest and strongest it has been so enemies should scale to. Thailog is predictable in that he wants his own family and live up to Goliath by destroying Goliath and his clan is why he has invaded the Labyrinth twice. Also the Labrynith is a strong ally composed of a mutate Manhattan clan with identical composition of Goliath's gargoyle clan plus Talon and other mutates. As for Angela I concur with how the panels maybe distort but I think is just a matter of deduction by Angela and knowing her mothers motivation. Is evident Demona wants to lead her own clan in a war against humans we seen her act towards that. A rookery would be a part of that!
watchmen's collective - [andreseduescobar at aol dot com]
DresWatch
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 6:48:11 am EST from 45.46.42.33

Yeah you are right there is a pattern I guess my point is also present in the second part of my essay (lol). Introducing more Dracos and turf war is good but while Thailog is always a big threat we seen this before to your point. The Quarrymen seem to come back in issue 4 so they also pose a literal existential threat. Castaway seems like a rather unimaginative and a villain you have very little sympathy and so rather bland and one note. It is interesting to see he is also connected to Illuminati which I see the larger threat that is looming. As for Lexington being a threat I don't think so that was resolved in my mind by Goliath returning from his Avalon journey and his connection with Alex not to mention whatever comes of his implied relationship of Stagheart. I meant internal more like the clan not being as united and maybe divided now that members like Coldstone and Coldfire returned and are now clan members. What I am getting at I guess is that I would like to see new villains or old villains made fresh and larger threat like when I mentioned the Manhattan Clan facing a combined force of a rebooted Pack and Falstaff gang. A more menacing Severus that acts independent of Thailog at times and has a powerhouse minion like a "Little Anton" fits that bill for me. I like the reveal of older Draco and Antoinete a better mastermind than Tony leading the mob is good for this book. Villains like that are good for this series but right now I am missing a grander villain with a flourish like a Macbeth, Xanatos, or Demona or a team of villains that can really take on the clan now like a reformed Pack or Falstaff even a run in with the Redemption Squad would satisfy that itch. Or again a Severus with Anton and maybe a couple other mutates also scratches that itch.
watchmen's collective - [andreseduescobar at aol dot com]
DresWatch
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 6:32:28 am EST from 45.46.42.33

Great discussion! Love it <3
Excavator
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 6:27:37 am EST from 180.191.210.63

Personally I think Angela is speaking with too much authority for it to be supposition on her part, but I admit it is entirely possible she's just assuming some things. I also just think it's very likely Demona would have told Angela her wacky plans in the Labyrinth, she was trying to persuade her that she was right. "Listen I had this really brilliant plan to take over the world and bring the Gargoyle race to power until Xanatos ruined it."

Thailog I think is just largely the most omnipresent threat to the clan right now, he's got resources, he's powerful and he's far more malicious than Xanatos is. There're also the Quarrymen and the Illuminati to consider. And Demona is still a threat even if she's been in hiding for a year or so (and we have some idea of what her next story may entail if the radio plays are anything to go by). But at the same time I think the show's been clever enough that it doesn't necessarily need some alpha villain to create good stories. The Dracons are usually just a means to an end, but I think the conceit of this multi-tier Dracon story is at least intriguing.

Honestly the thing I'm pretty pumped up by, that I'm hoping we see soon is Thailog and Demona just having it *out*. They both co-own Nightstone still and that arrangement probably couldn't really work for either of them. Even if thus far they've kind of taken turns going into hiding, the next time Demona comes back that has got to be a major point of contention.
Alex (FKA Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 5:34:26 am EST from 70.27.162.19

In terms of character's parents, I've often wondered whether Petros had left Greece due to either the nazi occupation during World War II or the civil war that occurred not long after. In any case, until further information comes out all we can do is speculate.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Feb 2, 2023 2:36:03 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Re: Diane's African heritage. Plenty of people migrate from Nigeria to the U.S., although it's largely a comparatively modern phenomenon. The 1967 Nigerian civil war and subsequent coups and dictatorships caused a spike in this, but since Elisa was born in 1968, that doesn't really apply to Diane's lifetime. It's possible her parents came over when she was younger, as some educated/comparatively wealthy Nigerians did, so we can't really just assume that she's descended from slaves. We just don't know at this point.

Got my Kambadais variant cover for #2, and boy, is it perty. Definitely my favorite of this batch.

A few people have questioned how Angela knew about Demona's agenda, re: the rookery, and it's possible that Demona told her some stuff during "The Reckoning," but it could also be as simple as "Angela knows whatever she knows, and filled in the blanks for herself." This is her internal monologue. It's subjective, and doesn't necessarily mean that she's entirely correct about Demona's intentions, just that this is the story Angela is telling herself.

I think the biggest problem with the dropped dialogue balloons is that that sequence is already a VERY ambitious two-page spread with a time jump/flashback that isn't telegraphed visually, and some insert panels that overlap with the main spread in a kind of surreal/impressionistic way. By losing the dialogue, the whole thing really becomes kind of overly abstract. I figured it out when I read it the first time without the word balloons, and it was clear to me what was going on, but it did feel a little messy, and took me out of the story because I had to go back over it multiple times to figure it out. Very unfortunate, and I hope it doesn't impact sales of the book going forward.

In response to watchmen's collective: It feels to me narratively that Thailog is being reused as a foe very quickly, since we saw him in issues 3-5 of the SLG run (essentially three "episodes" ago, if Greg is still working within a structure, as he says, of three issues = three acts of an "episode"). Especially since the first major new arc of the SLG run involved Thailog invading the Labyrinth, and here he is doing the exact same thing in the first new arc of the Dynamite run, whereas we still haven't seen, say, Demona. It feels a bit repetitive, which leads me to believe there is a mislead to come, where the bigger threat is something else. In terms of a threat from within the clan, Lexington seems like the obvious example that's been hinted at, but I think it's way too early in the storyline to go that route, if indeed we ever do.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Feb 1, 2023 10:42:20 pm EST from 63.143.192.21

So, I have not written in this comment room in a long time so bear with me there is all of sudden a lot of Gargoyles stuff going on. So, I have two questions and bit of commentary. First business after reading the latest comic in the Gargoyles series which made me smile. I had this take the conclusion of the SLG 12 issue run and these 2 issues for now while I understand and like the introduction of more dangerous Dracos and mob turf war. I am reminded of the menace and danger that is Thailog. Understanding the quarrymen are still a thing and the Illuminati ever present. It still feels like The NY Clan is at its strongest the strongest we have seen with Labrynith and Xanatos now a mostly ally and Demona for now out of the picture I wonder if there is a real threat to the Gargoyles in this run. One of the best aspects of the Gargoyles series has been its villains. Strong villains that felt like they were existential threat. Maybe the danger will be from within as we see hints of the Manhattan clan members start to go their own way and potential for division but this is less interesting to me, and I can't bring myself to believe that the Clan will come together. So it leads me to ask who does the comment room think will be the biggest threat and villain in this run? Should Weisman introduce a new threat or villain? Have we met that threat already? I personally and this is my segue would love to see a reformed pack with Falstaff gang introduced as a villain team or threat. I would also like an arch were the Redemption squad and Manhattan Clan meet and briefly battle before joining up to battle larger threat.

Which leads me to this next thought bubble recently I just watched the 3rd season of Gargoyles the infamous Goliath Chronicles. Which my reaction was it was better than I thought even if it does not match the first two seasons and Weisman cannon run is much better. It got me to thinking the I recently received the Marvel ru facsimile comic that Dynamite is putting out that is not cannon. I thought to myself what would be interesting from the non-canon material including say the SEGA Genesis game that you would like to see in this Dynamite comic run or if a Gargoyle animated series ever comes out. I have some suggestions after seeing the Goliath Chronicles and 1 issue of Marvel Comics here are my picks and would like to know yours.
Mine are:

"Little Antoine" Severus gargoyle mutate son.
a cameo by the two street kids that helped Brooklyn.
Fox Exo suit in Goliath Chronicles
Mech Suit Demona in Marvel Comics issue # 1
The jet pack Quarrymen soldiers in Goliath Chronicles
and lastly a cameo for the Amish boy in GC.
watchmen's collective - [andreseduescobar at aol dot com]
DresWatch
posted @ Wed, Feb 1, 2023 9:34:52 pm EST from 45.46.42.33

Given that Diane has a close relationship with her Nigerian heritage, there's a good chance that either A: Her family doesn't go back all the way to the Civil War as most slave families didn't have records from where they originated from.
B: She came across her information on her heritage during her studies.
Or C: Her family was liberated during that period of time when the African Slave Trade was outlawed and the family was allowed to keep parts of their heritage even when settling in the United States. (similar to what happened with James Covey)
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Feb 1, 2023 4:48:44 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

"Is there a reason to think her family goes back to the Civil War? Out of curiosity."

The majority of black people in the United States are descended from slaves who were shipped here before the Civil War, so that's my default assumption. But we have no guarantee- it could be her mother was born in Africa and immigrated at some point.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Feb 1, 2023 1:04:15 pm EST from 98.48.118.192

JURGAN- Thanks for the correction, honestly, I wasn't positive about which tribe Peter was from, so I probably should have just not specified. Navajo are the only ones I know from the southwest I guess. So, that's actually kinda dumb of me, sorry.

I don't know how it works with first generation, second generation, etc. I think calling someone with native heritage a "first generation immigrant" because their father was the first one to become an American citizen seems... odd to me, but that's really neither here nor there. I *had* forgotten that Elisa mentions Diane was born in New York. Is there a reason to think her family goes back to the Civil War? Out of curiosity.

Also slightly off-topic but I was listening to the podcast on City of Stone 4, and Greg mentioned Martin Pasko did the Gargoyles comic for marvel, which is super cool. I'm a huge Martin Pasko fan. I love his episodes of Batman (Paging the Crime Doctor is the main one I know), and his section of Mask of the Phantasm is incredible.
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Feb 1, 2023 5:55:44 am EST from 70.27.162.19

Just a reminder, one week has passed since the physical release and we no longer need to put things in SPOILERS as per our previous agreement.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Feb 1, 2023 4:37:15 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Todd> Even if the gargoyles aren’t acknowledged legally, just by utilizing them as accessories to her execution of her job, Elisa herself is engaging in a form of vigilantism, because she’s performing her job in a way that isn’t legally sanctioned.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 11:05:00 pm EST from 107.122.157.36

"I just realized Elisa is definitely *not* a first generation American, but hopefully you guys know what I mean. It's kind of a misappropriated metaphor."

I was wondering about that. I've never been clear what "nth generation immigrant" means if different sides of the family came to the country at different times. We know Diane was "born and raised in New York," and I'd guess her family goes back at least to pre-Civil War, but Peter could easily be the first of his tribe to become a U.S. citizen.

Also, Peter is Hopi. Sort of. It's complicated. https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=553
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 10:16:19 pm EST from 98.48.118.192

On Elisa "playing fast and loose" in allowing the gargoyles to engage in vigilantism - as she points out in "Cloud Fathers", the gargoyles don't legally exist, so their crime-fighting wouldn't count as vigilantism in the same way as that of human counterparts would. (Once the city government recognizes that the gargoyles are intelligent beings, of course, that would have to change, but I doubt we'll be seeing that development for quite some time.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 8:01:06 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

This actually got me thinking. In Greg's book "Spirits of Ash and Foam", Rain's grandfather, a WWII vet, describes that growing up the locals of the Ghost Keys weren't encouraged to explore their own Native background and heritage and instead to focus on the American mainland identity, even if they were separate from it. It's never outright stated, but I think it's safe to say that the Keys are a US territory or protectorate.

There are hints in the book that a big part of Rain's journey will involve exploring the past and with that the near genocide of the Taino people thanks to Columbus and the Spanish. I wonder if part of this story was Greg's efforts to explore cultural heritage in ways that he couldn't do in Gargoyles.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 6:46:38 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

I just realized Elisa is definitely *not* a first generation American, but hopefully you guys know what I mean. It's kind of a misappropriated metaphor.
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 6:32:36 pm EST from 70.27.162.19

Todd - It's totally fine, I know you're a respectful fellow. :) No issue at all, but I do appreciate the apology.

All your Quarrymen points are totally fair and in my opinion are probably correct. The only thing is, in the episodes I've seen thus far other than attacking PIT (who are "race traitors") the Quarrymen haven't really put the public at large in danger as far as I've seen so far. But I know later on they do, and that doesn't *really* make sense. I think most of the time they're just re-using character models for action sequences.

Re: The Green - I think Elisa is a first generation American who really defines herself as an *American* and even more so as a New Yorker before anything else. Especially since her father basically left his Navajo heritage behind when he moved to New York. Like I'm half-Italian, but my great-grandfather anglicized our family name in the 30s (to avoid the stigma of being a "WOP" and such) and my grandfather would never even talk about being Italian really. He just wanted to integrate/be English-Canadian basically.

Also at least in the mainstream the whole idea of colonization and identity didn't exist in the same way and was *a lot* less nuanced. Color blindness was idealized a lot more, I doubt the whole idea of Elisa being part native and relating to the Mayan Clan was really even a concept that crossed the writers or most viewer's minds. As forward-thinking as Gargoyles was in so many ways.

As an environmentalist piece, the Green is... okay. It rides the fence pretty hard, though it makes a concerted effort to showcase both sides of the issue in a very adult way. The whole episode is very adult. The main problem I think is it sort of equates environmental efforts against... I dunno, local hobby farmers I guess with environmentalist efforts against the big companies clear-cutting the forest for farmland. When I think that's kind of a strawman a little bit. It feels *a little bit* like it's reaching for a way to be nuanced.

I think the context of the episode is more putting itself up against Captain Planet or Ferngully, say, but I dunno if that should be the benchmark for environmental storytelling. And I don't think, that, necessarily the issues with those stories are that they don't present both sides well, just that they're too overtly childish.

But my point was more -- and I think this is worth discussing -- that I think there was a potential conflict between Goliath, who believes in objective morality and is a very sort of existentialist figure and Elisa, who operates in an adversarial subjective system that she believes in whole heartedly would have been interesting. And "Justice for All" had the potential to showcase that conflict, but instead it's just a story about Goliath being a boy scout. Hunter's Moon kinda dips it's foot into those waters, but is more focused on the ideas of vengeance vs. justice. (Which is a good story too) Probably just been watching too much Hill Street Blues again.

I've been sort of thinking more about Angela's role in the World Tour, and I thought of something that I *really* hope doesn't come across as disrespectful because it's not intended to. But I think it's a really tiny change to one episode and it really puts Angela in the forefront much earlier on. So in Avalon part 2, they could have swapped Angela and Elisa's roles. Angela goes with the Magus to wake up Arthur, Elisa goes with Goliath & Gabriel to confront the Archmage (or she stays with Katharine and they have a short scene or something).

This way we get some more alone time with Angela without Gabriel or Goliath, they could establish some sort of bookishness or interest in magic she picked up from the Magus. Maybe she's curious about magical sites around the world, or the Children of Oberon or something. (Which gives her some drive in those episodes and a much stronger POV) It'd also make her similarities to Demona more apparent as well, which pushes the "Goliath is worried Angela might take after Demona" subplot harder. Which I always thought was a bit weak just because Angela is so... good.

This is obviously kinda veering into the territory of fanfiction, but I made the criticism about Angela being a bit underdeveloped/flat in the World Tour a few weeks ago, so I wanted to I dunno, I guess make a suggestion for how that could be improved without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Maybe I'm overstepping. I hope not.
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 6:25:44 pm EST from 70.27.162.19

Thanks Todd.

Now for my two cents, we also have to consider the strong possibility that Disney wouldn't okay certain talking points no matter what side of the argument the characters fell on. "The Green" does rely heavily on the nature preservation side of things (as most toons from the 90's did) but deep delving into the land snatching that so many governments have done in areas like Guatemala or around the Amazon might just be too much of a soapbox for Saturday morning cartoons.

The other part to consider is the lesson learned by the end of the episode part of things, characters learn a lesson and hopefully so does the audience. Case in point, in "Cloud Fathers" Peter's subplot is about reconciling with his heritage and his father's memory. And the only way to do that is for him to have tossed aside his ethnic identity and view himself as a cop first and foremost. By that same reasoning, Elisa's caution and desire to investigate vs. Goliath and the Mayan Clan's need for swift retribution ends with Elisa realizing the need to preserve native flora.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 5:18:54 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

The print editions of both released Gargoyles comics have had a “Next Issue in Gargoyles” page, where the following issue’s cover is plastered over a backdrop of Goliath flying over Manhattan (where Goliath is almost entirely obscured by the issue cover). Have we ever seen a clean version of this artwork? It looks mighty pretty, and when I saw it the first time I assumed maybe it was a shot from #2, but it turns out it wasn’t.
Craig
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 5:08:19 pm EST from 107.127.42.136

I think Elisa's identity is fundamentally defined by her being a cop. We see in the series that Elisa hewed closer to Peter (who largely turned his back on his ethnicity and embraced identifying first and foremost as a cop), whereas Derek was closer to Diane who embraced her cultural background much more. Honoring the law is hugely important to Elisa, even though I imagine she can certainly see it as flawed in some ways. But she's also a rule follower. It makes sense that she wouldn't be a fan of vigilante justice or operating outside the system (even though she herself plays fast and loose with that approach in other episodes by allowing the gargoyles to help her, so it's certainly a bit hypocritical, but that's what makes all these characters nuanced).
Craig
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 4:56:12 pm EST from 63.143.192.101

I don't quite agree with your point--the need for natural resources doesn't require irresponsible exploitation--that's not quite what we're arguing. The argument is that Elisa is wrong to argue that corporations have the moral high ground because what they do is legal, and that the gargoyles were wrong to act because they don't have a legal claim to the territory. The argument is that, because Elisa is a member of communities marginalized using that same argument, she should understand that the argument is bunk, and that there's often no connection between something being legal and being morally or ethically correct, since laws are most often made by the people with power, and often without concern for the people who don't have the influence to craft laws. In defending that framework, Elisa favors oppressors over the oppressed, because the only avenue it allows for change--changing laws--is almost always, by design, unavailable to the oppressed.

In fact, it's worth noting that, her eventual solution is actually inconsistent with her claims. Sure, she's not assaulting people, but taking plants from the forest is still illegal; neither she nor the gargoyles have a legal claim to them.
Ian - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 4:21:51 pm EST from 168.91.192.232

I always loved Elisa’s stance in “The Green”; because she’s right. We talked about this same situation in depth in my Cultural Anthropology class when I took a trip to Madagascar in 2005. (A defining moment in my life)

The people need to cut down trees in order to survive. But in doing so they are damaging the future of the rainforest; and there is no easy solution here.

My take was, rather than Elisa “should or should not take sides” because of her ethnic background, she was aware of the nuances and the fact that solutions aren’t always easy.

In fact, I’ve never seen another pro-rainforest fictional story ever address this point: it’s always “cut trees bad”

—which it is, I can’t emphasize it enough

But the why of cutting down the trees is almost always attributed to corporate greed rather than necessity.
Chip - [Sir_Griff723 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 1:09:37 pm EST from 174.210.3.192

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew - and good spot on the scales in the recipe.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 7:35:03 am EST from 70.176.217.135

So that's why Belos wears the mask.

Watched "Eclipse Lake" which is a pretty action-heavy episode; it's funny to think about, but animation can often times provide better and more engaging action than any live-action production can. You don't have to worry about injuring your actors or stunt workers. No worries about location costs or property damage. The only limitations are your imagination and what you can animate. I bring this up because the fight between Hunter and Amity is one of the best pieces of animated action I've seen lately.

A big chunk of this episode is dedicated to Amity and Luz's new relationship; since they decided to go in the bold direction of actually keeping the two together while the story is still going on and not at the end of series, there's a lot that needs to be worked out between the two and where they stand. Chances are this is the first time the two have ever been in something closer than friends and neither really knows what to do. For Amity, this means be very up-front and out about her girlfriend while carrying a lot of insecurities at the same time on whether she'll mess anything up. And this unfortunately also plays into her conflict with Hunter and the Emperor's Coven, her concern over Luz fuels a lot of her frankly awesome moments this episode but also gets her acting recklessly, not to mention that Hunter knows how to prey upon the insecurities. Still, her worries are for naught, Luz is just as jazzed about this relationship as Amity is. Though, maybe they should find another form of communicating besides through tamagotchi.


The episode also holds a lot of mystery to it as well, between the Philip's journals, the missing Titan's blood in the lake and the Emperor's plans. It's a blink and you miss it moment in the beginning when it's revealed that Selkiedomus scales are apparently used for something called "Grimwalker." And anything with Grim in the name doesn't sound good. Unless you're the Thing, but that's besides the point. One thing I had to check was Belos' ears. They're distinctly different from that of the average witchling, lacking the sharp pointyness to them. Add that to his comments about visiting the human realm and there's something that doesn't add up about him and his backstory...

To conclude, Amity's got a palisman buddy and Ghost is such a good kitty. Reminds me of a neighborhood cat that loves to visit. Kikimora is really going downhill fast, mentally. I love the jokes on Millennial media. From the dig at rail cart chases from Donkey Kong to how long Dragon Ball has been around. And Eda, if you want to transform to Harpy mode you just need a close friend to get killed by a bloodthirsty space tyrant so you can unlock your powers. Just don't forget to let 'em power up so it'll make a more interesting fight. By the way, the common mold is just freaky. Even if you don't know "The Last of Us", growing mushrooms like it's case of cordyceps is just...ugh.

Favorite Lines:

Amity: Great, now all we need is-
Gus: Rain? Beach waves?
King: Something called "lo-fi beats to study and relax to"?

Eda: Whoo! Ah, don't mind me. I'm just learning how to turn into Harpy Eda on command. According to these human workouts, you just gotta scream a lot until you force your inner beast out. HRRRRR!! AAAHH!
Amity: This looks ancient.
Eda: What? No. It's only 30 years old? I remember seeing this in theaters.

Eda: Go on, fire it. Maybe the adrenaline will kick in, and bam, Harpy Eda.
King: Sounds perfectly safe!

King: Guess minecart chases are a lot more dangerous than video games make 'em seem.

Amity: You know, you were right. We do have a lot in common. I grew up thinking everything was an opportunity to justify existing, but there are people out there who won't make you feel worthless. You just have to let yourself meet them.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Jan 31, 2023 1:21:05 am EST from 64.85.245.77

ALEX - Sorry about that mix-up.

One problem I saw with Xanatos's "fake the clan's death" scene in "Angels in the Night"; moving to a new city (say, Chicago) would not work for long. As soon as the gargoyles started patrolling it and people spotted them, you could be certain that they'd be hunted all over again - whether by a new anti-gargoyle organization, or the Quarrymen relocating there from Manhattan. The only relocation that would work would be to go to Avalon (which the trio did briefly discuss in the episode).

The big problem I had with the Quarrymen in "The Goliath Chronicles" being almost all "brutal thug"-types was that the main gargoyles in Manhattan and thus the primary target, Goliath and his clan, were protectors and crime-fighters. That blurred the issue; the guys making up the Quarrymen in "The Goliath Chronicles" would be after them anyway, in the regular "get rid of the super-hero who's getting in our way". (From what I can recall of the FOX "X-Men", while the Friends of Humanity were given much the same composition, at least there was a lot more variety in mutants, with some being super-heroes like the X-Men, some super-villains like Magneto, and some trying simply to live ordinary lives and whose mutant trait consisted of being covered with fur, so that it was easier to accept that their hostility towards mutants was based on racial hatred.) As I mentioned once, it showed the advantage of the Hunters' main target being Demona.

Some level of hypocrisy in this kind of hatred works if it's more along the lines of "They're guilty of the very things they condemn their targets for" (like Demona condemning humanity for things that she herself has frequently done), but not when it raises the question of what their motives are (as in the Quarrymen's schemes showing that they know the truth about the gargoyles).

Of course, "Angels in the Night" is where you really wonder what Castaway was thinking. After going to all the trouble to convince Margot and the rest of the New York population that Angela and Bronx were complicit in a terrorist attack so that Margot will have them locked up, he then openly tries to break in and kill them, without apparently providing any plans for how he's going to justify this to the public. (As I've mentioned before, I suspect that the Quarryman attack on the train was a late development in that episode, after Greg Weisman talked them out of doing the "clan runs away from Manhattan" ending. That would explain a lot.)

And I've now listened to the latest podcast, with not only Greg Weisman as a guest, but also Gorebash (without whom we wouldn't have this comment room - thanks, Gore), Christine Morgan, and Karine Charlebois. Some great discussions, including Gathering memories and favorite characters/episodes. And some more about #2 of the comic (including the Fleecs covers, which are the ones I've gotten and especially like). I recommend it to everyone here who hasn't already heard it - though be warned, it's a bit over two hours long. So schedule it for when you've got a lot of free time.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 10:51:56 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

B: By all rights, she *should* have a stake. Elisa is half First Nations.

I get what you're saying, but I feel that for her to have argued differently would have been a disservice to her character. Elisa has never been the sort of person who could be said to have been aligned with leftist opinions: if I were to assign her a place on the political spectrum, it'd be that of a centrist Democrat. She is unwaveringly pro-cop. She has never expressed dissatisfaction with the status quo. In "The New Olympians," she is somehow surprised to find herself at the wrong end of a lynch mob, even though by all rights it should be the least surprising thing in the world to someone with her heritage. What's more, there's evidence that she doesn't feel particular empathy with traditionally marginalized peoples--otherwise, she'd have argued in "Heritage" in favor of Nick having the freedom to decide how he embodies his heritage, instead of arguing that he needs to get "new/old beliefs". So her arguing in favor of the companies in a "what are you going to do?" way in "The Green" feels entirely in character.

And really, I wouldn't have it any other way. Given how amorphous or fluid the "right" position can be--and it's worth noting that Elisa's stance that episode is the correct one, given the series' moral and ethical framework--it's more important for characters to be consistent than having them be subject to retcons in order to be palatable.
Ian - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 9:41:08 pm EST from 168.91.192.232

Oh, I just read something on Tumblr that reminded me of something I wanted to say before re:the Gargoyles comics: [SPOILER] the artist has been doing a good job making Talon's panther face look "in-over-his-head expectant father" these past two issues [/SPOILER].
B
B
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 8:30:40 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

Alex> Your comment about Elisa not having personal stakes in "The Green" goes to an issue with her disagreement with Goliath in that episode. It's not an equal argument where both sides have a point. By all rights, she *should* have a stake. Elisa is half First Nations. She says that they should find out who legally owns the rainforest, but what does that matter? Any document saying "Person A owns this land" was created by Person A or their peeps. It's a system that inherently excludes the Mayan gargoyles because they don't create documentation that says, "we own the land because we have this documentation *we ourselves made* that says so and gives us the right to take it out from under you by circular logic", and it's the same bullshit that was pulled on Elisa's own ancestors by the white colonizers. She should know better. Shame on you, Elisa.

I dislike the ending of "Genesis Undone" because I don't like things being returned to the status quo that way; I appreciate that in Greg Weisman's version the creation of the clones leads to a new clan that will persist into the future and likewise the genomorphs in Young Justice. It's one of the many things wrong with the finale of Game of Thrones: the free folk and the Dothraki simply go home at the end, with no change to the demographics of Westeros. Which is all the more annoying because you know George Martin himself is the kind of thoughtful writer who would actually deal with the consequences of the free folk coming south and the Essosi crossing the ocean.

The problem with the Quarrymen is not so much that they act like gangs but that they have plots hinging on endangering civilians as bait to draw out the gargoyles, when if they really think that gargoyles are evil monsters then they shouldn't expect them to care.

Re: your spoiler-texted bit [SPOILER] I agree, Demona probably told Angela things during "The Reckoning", but your idea is very funny. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 8:21:45 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

The only thing I'll say is that racial supremacist groups often *do* act like gangs. They do get involved in illegal activities and threatening public safety "for their cause". Castaway's "hoods yes, hammers no" is a somewhat evolved, maybe even kind of innocent view of things in a way. Financial hardship and a changing world may be at the root of the "will not replace us" crowd, but that's certainly not reflected in their behaviour. It's less captivating from a dramatic POV that they'd just be awful, stupid people but it's probably more realistic. The opposite is also very true, though. Gangs are racial supremacist groups by nature, so there's really just a lot of overlap.

That doesn't mean TGC's take is good mind you, they are just senselessly violent and pretty stupid in TGC and not captivating *at all*. And honestly, we've gotten to episode 9 (skipping Bronx tail) and they haven't actually really done *anything* outside of the pilot. They're in crowd scenes in "To Serve Mankind" without any real context, Jackal and Hyena mention them as their employers in Broadway Goes Hollywood but that doesn't really matter, and then they're in Dying of the Light where they attack a hospital and I think that's where we get the strongest sense of TGC's activist leanings with PIT. Which are super heavy handed. Which I don't personally have a problem with necessarily, but it really doesn't go anywhere.

But honestly, Dying of the Light's B-plot could have been just about anything. Replace the Quarrymen with Demona or the Dracons or a street gang, or even something like... a rabid tiger has escaped the zoo and is prowling the hospital and the story would *barely* change. The quarrymen are just there as a catalyst for Hudson's story, they're not particularly important so I think it's fine that they're really shallow in that story. And that honestly kind of redeems that episode for me. I find the broad emotional strokes of the writing charming I guess. Also Hudson gets some really badass one liners I appreciate.

We're going to watch Generations, For it May Come True, and Angels in the Night still. Which... I suspect are worse. I do not really honestly remember them at all.

I think the ending of Genesis Undone is actually an S&P note honestly. Usually if they emphasize "they could come back someday!" *this* heavily it's because a network executive somewhere was shouting "make it clear they're not dead!".

I do really get the Disney afternoon vibe, though. Like I said, they're written on the same level as Talespin basically. Broad character archetypes, pretty much the same level of humour. And I mean, I like those Disney afternoon shows honestly, so maybe that's why, looking at TGC more from that level I can appreciate it more with this viewing, I don't know.

Like in a Darkwing Duck episode if Darkwing crashed through a ceiling with a criminal to prove his innocence, it'd just be like a silly gag. It wouldn't be a huge hole in the show's world-building and insulting to my intelligence. That's basically how most every episode of TGC is written.

[SPOILER] I generally think Demona just told Angela what her plans had been in "The Reckoning", that's the most logical explanation and it fits the story perfectly; but I had this funny idea that somewhere in the Eyrie Building Demona had a disk with all her diabolical plans on it hidden somewhere and Xanatos found it ala Hunter's Moon. "Operation: Punk Xanatos. The culmination of 10 years of working with this stupid human".

I'm sure Demona's probably got history with the London Clan (maybe that's how Griff knows Goliath "looks to be Scottish stock" when Scottish gargoyles were all but extinct in the waking world for centuries) at the very least, and probably has attempted to subvert and radicalize them at some point. [/SPOILER]
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 7:56:25 pm EST from 70.27.162.19

I'll be honest, I didn't watch all of TGC, and the episodes that I did really didn't stick in my brain.

Castaway and the Quarrymen were a good idea on paper, with the gargoyles now out in public view instead of just the isolated viewings, there would naturally be those who irrationally fear and hate them. And Castaway's willingness to stoke those fears into a PR war against the heroes makes him an interesting foil to the Hunters. Brutal as their methods were, they were still keeping up the masquerade and keeping their ages-long vendetta out of the public eye. Going at it like a scalpel if you will.

On the other hand, Castaway uses his platform to encourage mob rule and irrational fear. Thus their methods are the sledgehammer, so to speak.
The problem is as so many have pointed out, that the Quarrymen are just there to fulfill the "group of henchmen needed to enact threat of the week" kinds of villainy. That makes them not only predictable but also hypocritical as Todd pointed out. What's the point of having a group of radicals on speciesism who are acting like gargoyles are the biggest threat to humanity when their whole methods are based on threatening humans? Not even solely on gargoyle sympathizers for that matter. It reminds me why Gorr failed on a conceptional level in the last Thor movie, you can't have a villain who believes all the gods are cruel and selfish and have his plan hinge on one god acting noble and selfless.

The comparisons between TGC and 90's X-Men are pretty apt since the Quarrymen seem to draw a lot from the animated take on the Friends of Humanity. Both hate groups were dumbed down from their original plans or depictions and what was lost wasn't so much as subtlety but thoughtful planning that would make them compelling villains instead of cheap thugs.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 5:46:52 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

One other TGC moment that gets hate but I think kind of works is the fake death in the finale. It's one of the few times we see Xanatos scheming, albeit on behalf of the good guys. Why did Xanatos go to all that trouble to make it look like the gargoyles were killed? Well, my interpretation is that he decided that the best thing for them was to fake their own deaths and disappear. So instead of trying to convince Goliath of the plan, he just went ahead and did it, hoping to box him in where he wouldn't feel he had any choice but to "remain dead." It's kind of an echo of Demona's original betrayal- she couldn't convince Goliath to abandon the humans of Wyvern, but hoped that once they were out of the way, he'd go along with it. You could almost see our more villainous Xanatos doing something similar to get the gargoyles out of the way- now they're Chicago's problem.

I feel like I've become something of a TGC apologist- it's not good, but it's not AS BAD as I used to say. I think getting new canon stories helps soften the blow- it's not so disappointing now that it's no longer the last published Gargoyles stories ever.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 4:48:29 pm EST from 64.106.38.254

DC Characters I want to see in Earth-16:
1.Reverse Flash
2.more teen titan characters(Starfire,Raven,Jericho, and Ravager)
3.Ares
4.Maxwell Lord
5.Metal Men
6.Bronze Tiger
7.More Milestone characters
8.Hyperclan
9.Doctor Light(Arthur Light or Kimiyo Hoshi (
10.Music Meister
11.Vixen
12.Rip Hunter
Juan Pablo Gonzealaz
Rodriguez
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 4:10:13 pm EST from 192.190.140.23

What if someone have the combined powers of Yellow and red lanterns(Fear and Rage)?
namor kukulkan
Talokan
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 3:26:17 pm EST from 192.190.140.23

There was certainly a lot of overlap between the writers on TGC and X-Men: TAS, and also a lot of overlap with much cartoonier Disney shows from the era. Other than the carryover writers from Gargoyles season 2 (Adam Gilad, Lydia Marano, three episodes by Cary Bates, and obviously one by Greg who wasn't TECHNICALLY a credited writer on season 2 but was obviously instrumental), all the other writers worked on X-Men with Eric Lewald. Mark Edward Edens ("And Justice for All") wrote a ton of X-Men episodes, and that might explain why it's possibly the most X-Men feeling episode of all. Perhaps the most baffling episode is "A Bronx Tail" (which was written by Jan Strnad, who did a couple of X-Men episodes but also did a lot of work at Disney, on Darkwing Duck, Return of Jafar, etc.). Julia Lewald (writer of "Dying of the Light," and obviously Eric's wife) also wrote a couple of X-Men but also did a bunch at Disney on Darkwing, TaleSpin and Rescue Rangers. Brooks Wachtel ("Generations," probably the most horribly awful episode of TGC) wrote several X-Men. As did Len Uhley ("For It May Come True"), who also wrote a bunch for Disney on DuckTales, Rescue Rangers, TaleSpin and Darkwing. The late great comic book writer Len Wein (co-creator of Swamp Thing and Wolverine and editor of Watchmen, among many other accomplishments) somehow managed to write the other absolutely irredeemable episode of TGC, "To Serve Mankind." Steve Cuden ("For It May Come True") wrote only one X-Men, and also did work on Goof Troop and Bonkers.

Overall, I agree that Cary Bates's first two episodes on TGC tended to be among the best of the sorry lot, particularly "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" ("Angels in the Night" was not so good). Along the same lines as "Broadway Goes to Hollywood," I do enjoy "Seeing Isn't Believing" because it's just fun and doesn't strive to be anything more than that, and the animation by Disney Australia, while odd, is an interesting oddity at least. I know "Dying of the Light" has its fans, and it certainly has some strong moments (and you can't really go wrong with Hudson and Robbins), but it does suffer from having such weak one-dimensional villains in the Quarrymen, as they were written on TGC. I really look forward to seeing more of them being properly depicted as more complex antagonists in the comics going forward, as we got a taste of in the SLG run.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 2:46:42 pm EST from 209.140.44.46

[SPOILER] "(I can't help thinking that Demona's plans for the rookery were another example of her not thinking things through - just one female gargoyle means only one egg every twenty years. Unless she knew about other gargoyles out there but wasn't sharing that information with anyone.)"

I think Demona definitely knew about some other gargoyle clans before her own was reawakened. I assume she had long-term plans to bring them under her control in some fashion. Although this is the first I remember hearing the idea that she wanted to seize the castle from Xanatos, but it makes sense. [/SPOILER]

"I also... actually think Hyena & Jackal work way better as just a pair of goofy henchmen than when they try to make them genuinely creepy. Cree Summer and Matt Frewer are just *funny*."

Jackal and Hyena are basically Team Rocket in this one, I think Broadway Goes Hollywood is one of the better TGC eps. I like the idea of Fox being devious and manipulative for the good guys.

"He knows who Thailog and Sevarius are"

I liked Genesis Undone just because of how dark the ending is. Thailog doesn't get a redemption, he's spiteful to the end. The episode obviously went against Greg's plans, but they were nice enough to leave the door open for reviving the clones if there had been future episodes in this timeline.

"I get the feeling that the new production team - unfamiliar with the series, and with very little time to get acquainted with it - treated them as just generic bad guys who are trying to kill the leads simply to provide them with an adversary"

The showrunners were also involved with the X-Men animated series at the time, which explains a lot about the Quarreymen's characterization. Bishansky speculated that some of the TGC episodes might have been adaptations of rejected X-Men scripts.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 11:23:45 am EST from 98.48.118.192

Todd Jensen> Alex mentioned preferring to be called Alex rather than Aldrius two weeks ago and that the "or Aldrius" or "FKA Aldrius" in the signature is just a reminder of Alex's former handle so people know it's the same person.
B
B
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 11:05:25 am EST from 74.74.246.146

ALDRIUS - Thanks for your comments on "The Goliath Chronicles".

"Cookie-cutter villain" does seem like a good description of the Quarrymen as depicted in the "Goliath Chronicles". The new production don't seem to have quite grasped the point of them, treated them as less a frightened public lured into this organization by their fears, ad more a band of mostly "professional bad guy henchmen". (Only two of them, the hospital staffer in "The Dying of the Light" and Maxwell, Margot's assistant in "Angels in the Night", even seem to have occupations outside of the Quarryman movement. Their stratagems generally only make sense if they know the truth about the gargoyles, that they protect people, without any explanation for why they're after the gargoyles in that case. I get the feeling that the new production team - unfamiliar with the series, and with very little time to get acquainted with it - treated them as just generic bad guys who are trying to kill the leads simply to provide them with an adversary (and to unwittingly set up a situation where the gargoyles can save the day and thus reveal their true nature to the public, in the final episode).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 8:34:40 am EST from 70.176.217.135

[SPOILER] I feel a *little* bit like the comic is biting off a little more than it can chew to an extent. I also sort of stand by my assertion that audiences are a little more savvy these days and don't necessarily need everything spelled out for them. They understand robots and ghosts and zombies without needing the whole context for what this all means and who every single character is or the full context of every relationship. And I do wish the comic was a bit better about compartmentalizing these things rather than giving us a little taste of everything right off the bat because I think it does end up feeling a little unsatisfying. But I want to wait until issue 3 to get the full context of where everything is going.

I think the Talon-Xanatos misunderstanding is *mostly* just to get Xanatos into the narrative in an efficient way. Gotta have Xanatos in story #1 somewhere, he's what the people paid their tickets for. That sounds a bit cynical or critical, but it's not meant to be. It's true. He's one of the most memorable characters in the whole franchise and he pretty much elevates every story he's a part of immediately. [/SPOILER]

My cousin had never seen the Goliath Chronicles (we started watching them on our last full viewing of the series, but I got fed up with it so we stopped) so we started watching those again. I haven't seen it properly in... probably 15-20 years.

I'm having a bit more fun with it this time, I know it's pretty universally hated in the fandom, but I thought I'd share some general thoughts. Mostly taking these stories on their own merits, rather than what they're not or what they could have been or how they differ from the first two seasons or the comic.

The Journey - Greg wrote it, so the script is obviously solid. The colour palette and general style of The Goliath Chronicles really bugs me. Everything is really blue and washed out. Also I think just because the cast was so big, Goliath Chronicles *loves* wide shots and they make the framing of scenes really odd. It makes my connection to the characters as individuals feel a lot more tenuous.

Alan Cumming as Castaway is fine. He sounds a lot like Cleverdon but his performance isn't as good in my opinion. The whole direction of the final confrontation at the clock tower's a bit strange. A lot of wonky animation and weird pacing issues. The scene where Castaway radicalizes the Quarrymen is pretty perfect. ("You are not alone!" -- this is also *super* pertinent to our modern society unfortunately and how modern reactionary movements operate.)

Ransom - Again, I'm going to judge these on their own merits. So I'm not gonna complain about how much lamer the story of a corrupt politician kidnapping a baby is than a bunch of magical trickster gods doing it is, even though I kinda just did. But even beyond that this is just a lame episode honestly. The premise isn't really cool, the whole conceit and story just feels pointless. The bad guy isn't cool. We don't learn anything new about Lexington and Alex. Owen is apparently just in a coma for the whole episode to explain away Puck. Fox is incredibly annoying and unlikable. Xanatos is useless. Pretty much a waste of time honestly.

Runaways - Again, not gonna complain about how much lamer a story about Brooklyn running away from home because Goliath yelled at him is than a story about Brooklyn travelling through time, dealing with Mary & Finella, and Demona and helping them battle an evil sorcerer is. But again... I just did. Weirdly the sort of basic premise of the Phoenix Gate storyline from the SLG comic is here, even the stuff about Brooklyn feeling lonely and jealous over Angela (which literally goes nowhere mind you, but it's there). Otherwise, like the comedy isn't very funny, and W Morgan Sheppard is pretty wasted. There's not much to say about it. This story is also just *really* late in the show's run. There's been 70-ish episodes of this show, does Brooklyn really not realize by this point that his clan loves him?

Clearly The Gate is just a better version of this story and it hits a lot of the same points.

Broadway Goes Hollywood - This episode reminds me a lot of the Silver Falcon a bit in that it's just a really silly buddy comedy story with way less of a dramatic edge. I think I complained about this episode once upon a time, just because I thought the timing of the first act break was really awkward (and honestly it is, it's *super* awkward and I'm not sure why). I liked it this time. It's just kind of stupid and dumb and fun. Cary Bates wrote it, so he really has a good grasp of the character's voices and the relationships and such. I also... actually think Hyena & Jackal work way better as just a pair of goofy henchmen than when they try to make them genuinely creepy. Cree Summer and Matt Frewer are just *funny*.

This episode is also a good engine for Broadway & Fox as a pair. Which actually weirdly works... really well. Fox is sharp, Broadway's a little dull. Fox is cutting and sensual, Broadway is sincere and heartfelt. It's like the best thing in the whole Goliath Chronicles honestly. Xanatos being proud of Fox is cute (even if her plan is goofy). And even though it pretty much robs Xanatos of any edge or threat for the rest of the season, the scene where he and Goliath bond is well conceived of and executed.

This is when they started just using the Quarrymen as cookie cutter villains to fill whatever plot they'd conceived of, and that's kind of silly but doesn't really detract from this particularly story or the episode. It's just an excuse for Jackal and Hyena to be bad.

I wouldn't mind seeing more Broadway-Fox stories in the new comic, though. That's really my ultimate takeaway from this whole exercise.

The Bronx Tail didn't play for some reason, so we just skipped it and maybe I'll go back to it.

Dying of the Light - I think this is regarded as the best episode of TGC (outside of the Journey)? And that's pretty fair. It's really solid. The script is good, the theme is nice, pretty much all the emotional beats work. I really felt for Hudson watching it. The Robbins stuff is honestly amazing. And that's just what the whole episode is built around: a great friendship between two old men helping each other out. Again, the Quarrymen are just cookie cutter bad guys who could have been literally anyone who wants to kill Hudson, but it really doesn't matter. It's not the point of the story. It's Hudson's story 100%.

And Justice For All - Ugh. The Quarrymen are just *here*. For no reason. They don't even do anything, they're just part of crowds. It's so annoying and pointless. The PD is cute, but no Joyce Davenport (Hill Street Blues reference). I kinda feel like this episode is approaching something cool, but doesn't really get there. Weirdly for a cartoon it acknowledges a lot of real courtroom concepts, but then basically tells the audience to ignore them. This kind of goes to in the first season where Goliath and Elisa are discussing human justice, and the justice system and then they never really talked about it ever again and I honestly think it's such a cool character point. It's such a natural source of conflict between Elisa and Goliath where neither needs to act like a child. Goliath is a 10th century warrior who I think as a character would either find the justice system distasteful because it's a bunch of humans passing judgement on others, or he'd find it appealing because it's so measured and intellectual and it affords emotional distance.

It's kind of in the Green, but they just agree to disagree and there's no real dramatic payoff. Largely because, as with many World Tour episodes Goliath, Elisa & Angela just have literally no personal stake in anything that's happening other than foiling Jackal and Hyena for the 6th time. (I still really do like the Green incidentally, it's a good episode. I just like it more conceptually than anything.)

The actual crime that Goliath is being charged with is also so dramatically underwhelming. In this case the villain being so flat is a pretty big hinderance to the episode because there's just not *that* much else going on. Goliath is noble, wants a fair trial. I get it. Spoiler for the new comic: [SPOILER] I'm hoping Greg does a lot with this when we get to his "version" of this story because I think this is incredibly rich territory to explore. [/SPOILER]

Genesis Undone - I don't think I can properly criticize this episode. It's just so goofy. Cary Bates again, does a solid script (in terms of the story structure + character writing). He knows who Thailog and Sevarius are, and it's one of the few episodes where Goliath doesn't just feel like his inclusion is perfunctory, he's got a lot of agency here and he's trying to be a hero even if he's being dumb. Honestly, the whole premise with the clone virus is pretty dumb, the giant evil gargoyle clone is dumb, dumb, dumb.

The sound design team kept re-using the same Tim Curry gasp. From when he gets woken up by the Gargoyles at the top of the episode. It's not a similar sound, it's the exact same clip, they just copy + pasted it three times for some reason and it's *really* funny. This whole episode is just high camp and I don't think any of the emotional or story beats actually work at all. Which just makes it even more camp, and that's kind of awesome if I'm honest. Goliath getting angry because Thailog is dead is so unmotivated and not even remotely justified, but Keith David is so emotionally emphatic I can't help but get swept away by it a little bit.

Also Sevarius's ridiculous Xanadu house is incredible. It's such a funny concept that he's just got this wacky atrium out in the middle of nowhere with a secret laboratory in the basement.

The episode is obviously a total disservice to the clones, and the episode really goes nowhere, and this is Gargoyles, not Mommy Dearest, but it's *so* deliciously camp I can't hate it really.

That's where we stopped. Honestly if I think about the show as some weird dark adaption of Tale Spin or something. Something a little less heavy, a little more broad and comic, it's not really a *bad* series. But obviously one that really misses the mark for anyone who cares about this setting or these characters. It's just so shallow.
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 5:14:52 am EST from 70.27.162.19

[SPOILER] I feel a *little* bit like the comic is biting off a little more than it can chew to an extent. I also sort of stand by my assertion that audiences are a little more savvy these days and don't necessarily need everything spelled out for them. They understand robots and ghosts and zombies without needing the whole context for what this all means and who every single character is or the full context of every relationship. And I do wish the comic was a bit better about compartmentalizing these things rather than giving us a little taste of everything right off the bat because I think it does end up feeling a little unsatisfying. But I want to wait until issue 3 to get the full context of where everything is going.

I think the Talon-Xanatos misunderstanding is *mostly* just to get Xanatos into the narrative in an efficient way. Gotta have Xanatos in story #1 somewhere, he's what the people paid their tickets for. That sounds a bit cynical or critical, but it's not meant to be. It's true. He's one of the most memorable characters in the whole franchise and he pretty much elevates every story he's a part of immediately. [/SPOILER]

My cousin had never seen the Goliath Chronicles (we started watching them on our last full viewing of the series, but I got fed up with it so we stopped) so we started watching those again. I haven't seen it properly in... probably 15-20 years.

I'm having a bit more fun with it this time, I know it's pretty universally hated in the fandom, but I thought I'd share some general thoughts. Mostly taking these stories on their own merits, rather than what they're not or what they could have been or how they differ from the first two seasons or the comic.

The Journey - Greg wrote it, so the script is obviously solid. The colour palette and general style of The Goliath Chronicles really bugs me. Everything is really blue and washed out. Also I think just because the cast was so big, Goliath Chronicles *loves* wide shots and they make the framing of scenes really odd. It makes my connection to the characters as individuals feel a lot more tenuous.

Alan Cumming as Castaway is fine. He sounds a lot like Cleverdon but his performance isn't as good in my opinion. The whole direction of the final confrontation at the clock tower's a bit strange. A lot of wonky animation and weird pacing issues. The scene where Castaway radicalizes the Quarrymen is pretty perfect. ("You are not alone!" -- this is also *super* pertinent to our modern society unfortunately and how modern reactionary movements operate.)

Ransom - Again, I'm going to judge these on their own merits. So I'm not gonna complain about how much lamer the story of a corrupt politician kidnapping a baby is than a bunch of magical trickster gods doing it is, even though I kinda just did. But even beyond that this is just a lame episode honestly. The premise isn't really cool, the whole conceit and story just feels pointless. The bad guy isn't cool. We don't learn anything new about Lexington and Alex. Owen is apparently just in a coma for the whole episode to explain away Puck. Fox is incredibly annoying and unlikable. Xanatos is useless. Pretty much a waste of time honestly.

Runaways - Again, not gonna complain about how much lamer a story about Brooklyn running away from home because Goliath yelled at him is than a story about Brooklyn travelling through time, dealing with Mary & Finella, and Demona and helping them battle an evil sorcerer is. But again... I just did. Weirdly the sort of basic premise of the Phoenix Gate storyline from the SLG comic is here, even the stuff about Brooklyn feeling lonely and jealous over Angela (which literally goes nowhere mind you, but it's there). Otherwise, like the comedy isn't very funny, and W Morgan Sheppard is pretty wasted. There's not much to say about it. This story is also just *really* late in the show's run. There's been 70-ish episodes of this show, does Brooklyn really not realize by this point that his clan loves him?

Clearly The Gate is just a better version of this story and it hits a lot of the same points.

Broadway Goes Hollywood - This episode reminds me a lot of the Silver Falcon a bit in that it's just a really silly buddy comedy story with way less of a dramatic edge. I think I complained about this episode once upon a time, just because I thought the timing of the first act break was really awkward (and honestly it is, it's *super* awkward and I'm not sure why). I liked it this time. It's just kind of stupid and dumb and fun. Cary Bates wrote it, so he really has a good grasp of the character's voices and the relationships and such. I also... actually think Hyena & Jackal work way better as just a pair of goofy henchmen than when they try to make them genuinely creepy. Cree Summer and Matt Frewer are just *funny*.

This episode is also a good engine for Broadway & Fox as a pair. Which actually weirdly works... really well. Fox is sharp, Broadway's a little dull. Fox is cutting and sensual, Broadway is sincere and heartfelt. It's like the best thing in the whole Goliath Chronicles honestly. Xanatos being proud of Fox is cute (even if her plan is goofy). And even though it pretty much robs Xanatos of any edge or threat for the rest of the season, the scene where he and Goliath bond is well conceived of and executed.

This is when they started just using the Quarrymen as cookie cutter villains to fill whatever plot they'd conceived of, and that's kind of silly but doesn't really detract from this particularly story or the episode. It's just an excuse for Jackal and Hyena to be bad.

I wouldn't mind seeing more Broadway-Fox stories in the new comic, though. That's really my ultimate takeaway from this whole exercise.

The Bronx Tail didn't play for some reason, so we just skipped it and maybe I'll go back to it.

Dying of the Light - I think this is regarded as the best episode of TGC (outside of the Journey)? And that's pretty fair. It's really solid. The script is good, the theme is nice, pretty much all the emotional beats work. I really felt for Hudson watching it. The Robbins stuff is honestly amazing. And that's just what the whole episode is built around: a great friendship between two old men helping each other out. Again, the Quarrymen are just cookie cutter bad guys who could have been literally anyone who wants to kill Hudson, but it really doesn't matter. It's not the point of the story. It's Hudson's story 100%.

And Justice For All - Ugh. The Quarrymen are just *here*. For no reason. They don't even do anything, they're just part of crowds. It's so annoying and pointless. The PD is cute, but no Joyce Davenport (Hill Street Blues reference). I kinda feel like this episode is approaching something cool, but doesn't really get there. Weirdly for a cartoon it acknowledges a lot of real courtroom concepts, but then basically tells the audience to ignore them. This kind of goes to in the first season where Goliath and Elisa are discussing human justice, and the justice system and then they never really talked about it ever again and I honestly think it's such a cool character point. It's such a natural source of conflict between Elisa and Goliath where neither needs to act like a child. Goliath is a 10th century warrior who I think as a character would either find the justice system distasteful because it's a bunch of humans passing judgement on others, or he'd find it appealing because it's so measured and intellectual and it affords emotional distance.

It's kind of in the Green, but they just agree to disagree and there's no real dramatic payoff. Largely because, as with many World Tour episodes Goliath, Elisa & Angela just have literally no personal stake in anything that's happening other than foiling Jackal and Hyena for the 6th time. (I still really do like the Green incidentally, it's a good episode. I just like it more conceptually than anything.)

The actual crime that Goliath is being charged with is also so dramatically underwhelming. In this case the villain being so flat is a pretty big hinderance to the episode because there's just not *that* much else going on. Goliath is noble, wants a fair trial. I get it. Spoiler for the new comic: [SPOILER] I'm hoping Greg does a lot with this when we get to his "version" of this story because I think this is incredibly rich territory to explore. [/SPOILER]

Genesis Undone - I don't think I can properly criticize this episode. It's just so goofy. Cary Bates again, does a solid script (in terms of the story structure + character writing). He knows who Thailog and Sevarius are, and it's one of the few episodes where Goliath doesn't just feel like his inclusion is perfunctory, he's got a lot of agency here and he's trying to be a hero even if he's being dumb. Honestly, the whole premise with the clone virus is pretty dumb, the giant evil gargoyle clone is dumb, dumb, dumb.

The sound design team kept re-using the same Tim Curry gasp. From when he gets woken up by the Gargoyles at the top of the episode. It's not a similar sound, it's the exact same clip, they just copy + pasted it three times for some reason and it's *really* funny. This whole episode is just high camp and I don't think any of the emotional or story beats actually work at all. Which just makes it even more camp, and that's kind of awesome if I'm honest. Goliath getting angry because Thailog is dead is so unmotivated and not even remotely justified, but Keith David is so emotionally emphatic I can't help but get swept away by it a little bit.

Also Sevarius's ridiculous Xanadu house is incredible. It's such a funny concept that he's just got this wacky atrium out in the middle of nowhere with a secret laboratory in the basement.

The episode is obviously a total disservice to the clones, and the episode really goes nowhere, and this is Gargoyles, not Mommy Dearest, but it's *so* deliciously camp I can't hate it really.

That's where we stopped. Honestly if I think about the show as some weird dark adaption of Tale Spin or something. Something a little less heavy, a little more broad and comic, it's not really a *bad* series. But obviously one that really misses the mark for anyone who cares about this setting or these characters. It's just so shallow.
Alex (or Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 5:14:52 am EST from 70.27.162.19

So I finally got Gargoyles#2, and was able to put my thoughts together: [SPOILER] I mentioned last time that my issue with #1 wasn't necessarily that it was mostly spent on reintroductions, but that the reintroductions felt lacking in characterization and detail. While there is definitely more plot here, I feel the problem remains. Like Ed, I feel that the issue buried the lede by having the comic go directly from the characters finding Maggie missing to their assault on Xanatos; even if we didn't know that they're following a red herring, seeing all those characters with drastically different opinions on Xanatos argue and come to a consensus is much more interesting to me than seeing what, so far, is a retread of a scene that already felt unnecessary in "Kingdom". And at this point, the fact that the series hasn't had anyone discuss the implications of the Manhattan Clan living with Xanatos and being beholden to him is starting to seem like active avoidance of the topic--especially since it's directly pertinent here. [/SPOILER]

I'm also still [SPOILER] just not sold on this story, also from a characterization perspective, for a lot of the reason Ed aludes to. The baby, at this point, is a plot device, and Talon and especially Maggie haven't gotten any proper characterization since, arguably, "Kingdom". Thailog also doesn't feel terribly different than he did the last two times he was involved in shenanigans at the Labyrinth, which makes this story feel especially repetitive.

This, in turn, helps explain why I'm more intrigued by the Dracon subplot, which is allowing us to see different sides of the characters involved. I'm especially curious about Toni: so far her main use has been to facilitate exposition, but I'm hoping to see more interesting stuff from her. [/SPOILER]
Ian - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 12:24:56 am EST from 168.91.192.232

First!
B
B
posted @ Mon, Jan 30, 2023 12:04:04 am EST from 74.74.246.146