I watched it, and thought it was fun.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2023 7:38:32 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

So anyone catch the Marvel/Disney show Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur?

First two episodes are on YouTube already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq3geyQP2-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq9jpTwua2Y
Antiyonder
posted @ Sun, Feb 12, 2023 6:54:51 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

It was from the 2012 series and a hybrid was involved just not the traditional one. There is a funny bit with Mikey trying to remember the name of the creature from myth, he came up with Turducken.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 8:17:19 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Greg Weisman wrote a "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" episode? That's the first I've heard of that. The title looks interesting; was it a literal chimera (the lion-goat-dragon hodgepodge from Greek myth), or something else?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 7:48:38 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Thanks everyone, I do have theories about what the twist will be with Phillip, his brother and the Emperor but without further data all I can do is theorize.

And yes I did notice more than a few shout outs this episode such as Flora and Luz wondering about that name not to mention the whole mummy jerky (there's a reason I did a Futurama quote as the header).

I was never really into the Buffy/Angel verse so I couldn't give any insight on how they handled group dynamics. But while rewatching and writing it made me think of that TMNT episode Greg wrote, "Eyes of the Chimera" and how its focus on Leo and April was something the show had never done before.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 7:45:10 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

B - I suspect Matthew did, given that he quoted Luz's remark on Flora's name.

I just checked the catalogue of the local library, and they don't have "Toil and Trouble" in their collection. Pity.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 7:44:25 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Ian> That's right, I read about that book on the Boom! news page a couple years ago.

Antiyonder> Nice haul! Re:The Owl House [SPOILER] Matthew at least seems to have cottoned on to Phillip being Belos. I'm not sure he's made the connection between Flapjack and the other bird palismen yet. [/SPOILER]

Matthew> Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel were good at doing that, having interesting scenes between characters who weren't typically paired together, like Tara and Anya or Giles and Cordelia. Did you notice that Flora D'esplora was a reference to Dora the Explorer?
B
B
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 7:28:04 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

IAN - Thanks for telling us about "Toil and Trouble". This is the first I've heard of it, but now I'll have to check to see if my library's got a copy of it.

JOHN - This isn't "Ask Greg"; it's a "Gargoyles" discussion room in which Greg Weisman occasionally stops by, but isn't a regular visitor. You'll find a link to "Ask Greg" among the links above the room.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 6:55:04 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

I just wanted to say as I have said on many social media sites & on Youtube Videos, I think Young Justice is Amazing & I love the show so much. I hope you get nothing but positive compliments for your hard work. Here's hoping that we get to continue with many more Seasons,
Thank you for everything & I hope this message finds you well.
JOHN - [jmogh18 at gmail dot com]
John
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 5:48:35 pm EST from 73.61.246.189

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/3/0/9/AAQfvwAAELKl.jpg

My recent haul from the comic store including Gargoyles #2 and some others including finally getting the Bill & Ted Holiday Special.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 4:47:00 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

So in my last library outing I ended up picking the graphic novel Toil and Trouble, by Mairghread Scott and Kelly & Nichole Matthews, not knowing what it was about, but finding the cover and the endorsement by Gail Simone enough of an enticement. As I imagine some of you already know--I can't imagine the book hasn't been brought up here before--it turned out to be a telling of Macbeth though the prism of the Weird Sisters, who are super-invested in his fate, and do not at all agree about what that should be. It's quite good! The art is great, and it's good to be reminded of one of my favorite bits of Gargoyles. Emphatically recommended.

Coincidentally, during the same trip I also picked up Volume 10 of The Sandman, "The Wake", whose last story stars Shakespeare circa The Tempest. Also good stuff.
Ian - [doknowbutchie at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 12:46:08 pm EST from 168.91.192.232

Todd Jensen and B> [SPOILER] I wonder if Matthew has considered a connection to the Wittebanes and Clawthornes yet.

I mean like some people I tended to read into Hunter doing that "Byyye" thing Eda would do, but even without, Dell looking like Philip, plus his Palisman looking like Flapjack made it hard to not believe something was up. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 12:30:56 pm EST from 71.84.183.196

It should have been "time pool", both times.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 8:48:51 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew. Some good insights again, including the part about the significance of Luz and Lilith having an adventure together.

One of my favorite little moments was the scene where Eda is mentioning various legendary beasts in Boiling Isles lore - among which are opossums, and when Luz points out that they're real, laughs sceptically.

And the scene at the end where Lilith gets to do something fun before they head back to the tide pool - and her activity is watching someone carve out a Deadwardian balustrade, squealing in excitement.

And the scene where Lilith trips over what appears to be a rock - and it turns out later to be her head peering out of the tide pool. (Clearly "The Owl House" uses the same rules for time travel as "Gargoyles" did - time travelers were already there.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 7:44:07 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Matthew>

1. "They really are doing some heavy foreshadowing with Phillip and his brother, aren't they?"

So where do you think the foreshadowing is leading to?

2. As for Lilith, yeah the charity livestream confirmed her to be assexual.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 6:37:00 am EST from 71.84.183.196

You mustn't interfere with the past. Don't do anything that affects anything, unless it turns out you were supposed to do it. In which case, for the love of God, don't not do it!

Watched "Elsewhere and Elsewhen" today which gives us a fun little outing through time with Luz and Lilith. One all too common trap I've seen in television or in any kind of media for that matter, is for the writer's to not take advantage of the different kinds of character interactions that can take place within an ensemble cast. In most cases, characters will pair off usually in romantic relationship, or friendship or rivalry and unless there's a central protagonist who's job is to connect these characters together, they seem to just play off the other of the two person group and that's it.

That's why changing up the usual group dynamics is so important, to explore how a character is like outside the usual group or pairing. Luz and Lilith haven't had much interaction except through Eda, so having the two on an adventure of their own brings up a pretty neat dynamic. Despite being "Cool Aunt Lilith" there's no way she'd be as crazy or outgoing as Eda or Luz and yet, we see that there's an adventurous spirit to her all the same. She may not be out there looking for hidden treasure long thought to be legend, but she has an inquisitive mind and a strong desire to learn that connects to Luz in a similar way. And learning about how life worked in societies long past or the minute details of past architecture (or balusters) may not be as exciting as tomb robbing. But any archeologist will tell you that's far more likely to happen.

The big meat of the episode is Luz and Lilith meeting Philip Wittebane, who turns out to be a grade-A jerk. There's been a lot of mystery surrounding him and his invention of the Portal Door. And while little is revealed on how he created it, more is revealed on who he is as a character, none of it good. It had been foreshadowed earlier that his previous trips around the Boiling Isles had left him the sole survivor in at least one expedition, what's more horrifying is that he's purposefully led others to their doom in the pursuit of his goals. What's more disturbing is his use of the word "sacrifice." Not "distraction" or "muscle" but a word with one consistent meaning to it, "death." It's his casual use of that and his blasé attitude towards Luz and Lilith even after they survive his treachery that shows just how awful he can be. Combine that with that white cloak he had in his lair, him using palismans to stabilize whatever glyph mixing he had done to himself and his obsession on living long enough to see his goals through. It all adds up to some pretty bad conclusions.

To wrap things up, we have the long awaited reunion between father and daughter. It does make sense that Eda would avoid him for so long, even taking into account that her attacking him caused enough nerve damage that he couldn't craft palismans anymore, it's safe to say that he was the first person she hurt when she became the Owl Beast and the reason why she avoided him even more than the rest of her family. But one important factor is that while Eda has avoided her loved ones because she doesn't want to face the guilt and painful memories of the past, she's also avoided the possibility of reconciliation and forgiveness. It was a moment of weakness that drove Lilith to curse Eda and it was a similar moment of weakness that led to her accidentally scarring her father. And despite everything, Eda and Lilith were able to make amends, so why not with their father as well?

Some Final Thoughts: They really are doing some heavy foreshadowing with Phillip and his brother, aren't they? I did like that they changed up what would seem like the obvious plot line with the introduction of Flora D'esplora; in another show the episode would revolve around the potential rivalry between Lilith and Flora. A Belloq to Indiana Jones as it were. But instead it's just Lilith and Luz's story. So the Clawthorne's have a history of crafting palisman? That's a cool little detail. And they all have a bird theme, also a neat detail. And then there's this mysterious The Collector. Interesting that they're moon face brings to mind a certain moon-masked individual from Eda's dream...

Favorite Lines:

Luz: Who was that?
Lilith: Flora D'splora. Bad-girl historian, celebrity, and my former mentor in the Emperor's Coven.
Luz: I have questions about that name.
Lilith: And I have questions about MY LIFE!!! All I ever got to do was desk work, while she goofed off riding wild snake horses and-
Luz: [Gasps] Snorses!
Lilith: -And, and eating mummy jerky! Well, I can be just as exciting as Flora. I'll come up with an exhibit that'll knock the Titan's socks off!
Luz:.....Congratulations on your new job!

"Lilith": Apologies, dearest mother. Dearest sister has flown the dearest coop. But worry not, for I, the perfect, prissy little Lily, shall find her for you.
(beat)
Gwendolyn: Does she seriously think I'm buying that?
King: Just let her have this.

Luz: Come on, we can't stop now! We're getting everything we could have hoped for!
Lilith: That's just it. Look. Most of this puzzle has been solved already. And Philip...The confidence, the compliments. He says everything you want to hear. It feels... uncomfortably familiar.

Eda: What... is that?
Dell: It's a palistrom seed. My Palisman-making days are over, but I've been helping the Bat Queen replenish her forests, so someone new can learn the trade.
Eda: Did you come all the way here just to brag?
Dell: Yes! But also to say, let the past stay in the past, witchlet. It's okay to move on. (Puts his hand on Eda's hand) And give Owlbert my regards. Carving him with you is one of my dearest memories.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Feb 11, 2023 3:44:20 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Alex> " Also why Titania? I feel like they just used her because she's probably the most benevolent of the magical characters in the show, on a superficial level anyway. And they needed *someone* for it."

Grandmother or the Lady of the Lake would arguably work better.

Todd> "there was one moment there that I rather liked, the scene where the boy goes to check on Bronx in the morning, finds him turned to stone, and worries that he must have made a mistake in caring for the beast that caused that to happen."

Like the Mogwai. ;)

"I still sometimes wonder whether the Goliath Chronicles contributed a lot to the "revive the show" goal of the "Gargoyles" fandom - the feeling that the "botched ending" needed to be repaired. If the series had ended with "Hunter's Moon", or if the third season had been up to the same level as the first two and then the series had ended, would the fans have been more at peace about "Gargoyles" being over?"

Indubitably.

Jurgan> "The amnesiac Elisa from Sentinel might do something like that, but not the real person."

And even then, only if she were manipulated into it.

"Also, they made human Goliath white instead of using the character model from The Mirror."

Missed opportunity.
B
B
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 10:27:47 pm EST from 74.74.246.146

JURGAN - True. And even then, Goliath was a familiar Manhattan gargoyle.

Granted, Goliath would be more formidable than any human assassin, but I still can't help thinking that it would be like expecting war to erupt in Europe in 1914 if Archduke Franz Ferdinand had been mauled to death by a mountain lion or a bear rather than shot by a member of the Black Hand (unless somebody did a good job of convincing everyone that the mountain lion or bear had been trained to attack him by the Black Hand).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 8:18:01 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

" read a remark from someone else once which suggested that it would have made better sense to send a human assassin rather than a gargoyle after the statesman, since the human assassin could masquerade as working for one of the rival factions in the civil war, and I think that's a good point. "

Unless the country in question has its own gargoyle clan and the factions disagree about how to handle the gargoyle "menace" in their midst. But that's more depth of worldbuilding than TGC was interested in.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 8:10:32 pm EST from 98.48.119.246

I still sometimes wonder whether the Goliath Chronicles contributed a lot to the "revive the show" goal of the "Gargoyles" fandom - the feeling that the "botched ending" needed to be repaired. If the series had ended with "Hunter's Moon", or if the third season had been up to the same level as the first two and then the series had ended, would the fans have been more at peace about "Gargoyles" being over?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 7:33:57 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Matthew> "In any case the title doesn't work. Bronx is a tailless Garg Beast."

Bronx does have a tail. It's short and stubby, but it's there.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 6:09:59 pm EST from 63.143.194.54

Todd Jensen> Yeah the lack of continuity even from it's own episode I think is a reason to decanonize them, plus while any attempt to put work towards it should be acknowledged (Greg giving Dying of the Light a nod), I don't imagine the crew feeling broken up about it.

They probably respond to the effect of oh, they're doing more Gargoyles and in comic form?
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 10:48:22 am EST from 71.84.183.196

Probably the best you could say about "To Serve Mankind" - which I've mentioned before - is that the Illuminati's method of getting Goliath to kill their target - saying his name over and over - was believable. After all, look at what it did to the audience!

I read a remark from someone else once which suggested that it would have made better sense to send a human assassin rather than a gargoyle after the statesman, since the human assassin could masquerade as working for one of the rival factions in the civil war, and I think that's a good point. Unless the theory was that the statesman was the only person in government who wanted peace - or, more precisely, was putting the good of the overall country above the good of a faction - and that if he was removed, nothing could prevent the civil war from starting up again.

Yes, I think that the writers of "Angels in the Night" tried to have it both ways with Castaway - going from being clever enough to put on a show to convince Margot that the gargoyles were guilty (his talk about the people who could have been hurt from the bomb blast looks obviously hypocritical in light of his actions in "For It May Come True" - it's as if the production team had forgotten all about that one when they were making "Angels in the Night", and it was one of their own episodes; that strengthens the feeling that "The Goliath Chronicles" was a rush job) to foolish enough to attack the train without pondering how it would make him look - all the more so since his act to Margot resulted in her being all the more certain to take Angela and Bronx into custody, something he apparently wasn't thinking out. And the rest of the Quarrymen (including Maxwell, one of the very few examples of an "ordinary person" in the Quarrymen movement after "The Journey") don't seem to consider the problem either. And when you put in Castaway's gloating remark about the gargoyles' true nature - it seems as if their motivation is simply "the story wants us to do this".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 8:05:36 am EST from 70.176.217.135

Todd - I forgot to mention that. The cute "what did I do" after Bronx turns to stone was actually a lovely little moment.

I dunno what to make of Angels of the Night honestly. I kinda dislike it just for how messy it is, It's not even fun or campy. I love Cleverdon but Castaway really is a mess.

In fact the quarrymen in general never really *do* much of anything past The Journey. As much as I don't necessarily accept that a racial hate group would be quite so deft in terms of their public image or concerned about such things; it'd have been nice to see them being maybe more effective than just as a cheap pretense for an "it's a wonderful life" story.

I think maybe the PIT story is the closest they come to feeling remotely authentic. Trashing a pro-Gargoyle group seems like something a group like the quarrymen would do.

Like nothing about Angels of the Night is properly justified really. It's a decent spectacle, the train sequence, but it's so boring because the stakes make no sense. I think I zoned out watching it.

To serve mankind is another high camp episode for me to be honest. The illuminati guys wearing gargoyles costumes to lure the Clan into a trap is just *chef's kiss* delicious. Xanatos showing up in a bathrobe to save everyone is fabulous too.

Also in terms of Xanatos what I meant more was Xanatos being so obviously duplicitous and sinister in terms of his attitude rather than his actions or behaviour.
Alex (FKA Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 6:57:33 am EST from 70.27.162.19

"In any case the title doesn't work. Bronx is a tailless Garg Beast."

Well, it's a reference to a mob movie called "A Bronx Tale." Not sure how well known that it today. I remember hearing about one of the canonical Gargoyles writers was at the gathering and someone told him there was a TGC ep where Bronx befriends an Amish boy. The writer (I think it was Frank Paur or Michael Reaves) spat out his drink in shock at how stupid it sounded.

'Also "it started as that but now I wouldn't hurt you for anything" doesn't really make sense when she literally gave up her romance and partnership with Thailog just to save Angela's life.'

This is such a cliched line in general.

"Elisa is a Gargoyle Hunter, Xanatos is more villainous than he ever was really."

I don't remember Xanatos in that story doing anything more villainous than, say, forcibly mutating someone. Elisa as a gargoyle-hunter makes no sense, though. Even before meeting Goliath, she seemed like a tolerant and open-minded person. The amnesiac Elisa from Sentinel might do something like that, but not the real person. Also, they made human Goliath white instead of using the character model from The Mirror.

"To Serve Mankind" is the only episode I think is just awful even without comparison to canon Gargoyles. The repeated shouting of "Egon Pax" is so ridiculous that I can't take any of it seriously. There was more bad, too, but that's the stand-out.

"Seeing Isn't Believing" is mostly memorable for how bizarre its animation was. All the characters moved in strange, overly fluid ways. My main memory of this one is watching it at an MST3K style screening at one of the Gatherings, and when Proteus as Goliath hit Elisa I shouted "To the moon, Alice!"

"Because going after Angela and Bronx was one of the worst things Castaway could do."

This is something that might have made sense with the Jon Canmore background. You could easily see him getting so overwhelmed with rage that he screws himself over (his gargoyle counterpart Demona does so all the time). But Castaway had generally been portrayed as being more cautious in public, what with how chummy he got with Margot. And any nuanced motivation was thrown out the window when Castaway admits he knows that the gargoyles are protectors. Your idea of them just being a gang makes more sense, but then we hit a dilemma. Castaway has to be sensible enough to know how to manipulate the gargoyles but reckless enough to ruin his own reputation. It's a mess of a character.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 1:31:37 am EST from 98.48.119.246

Matthew> Luz's recounting of her parting from Camila differs from the original in that Camila really just said, "Stay here", but Luz's version has the stricter-sounding "Stay with me and never go back to that place."
B
B
posted @ Fri, Feb 10, 2023 12:09:27 am EST from 74.74.246.146

Eh, it's the Goliath Chronicles. Not worth an "whoops, mea culpa."

In any case the title doesn't work. Bronx is a tailless Garg Beast.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 11:23:01 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

I noted that both Matthew and Todd misspelled the title of "A Bronx Tail," and this made me think of Alex's posts comparing TGC to other Disney Afternoon shows. Both DuckTales and TaleSpin used the tale/tail pun in their titles and theme songs. And here on TGC, same thing, albeit in reverse. The writers at 1990s Disney TV REALLY loved that pun.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 9:33:18 pm EST from 63.143.195.87

While "A Bronx Tale" didn't make a strong impression on me - not even a negative impression on the level of "Angels in the Night" - there was one moment there that I rather liked, the scene where the boy goes to check on Bronx in the morning, finds him turned to stone, and worries that he must have made a mistake in caring for the beast that caused that to happen.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 9:15:41 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Thanks Todd. And Antiyonder, I did notice that this was probably the first time since they were kids that Amity visited Willow's house.

The Goliath Chronicles. Ooh boy. As Alex pointed out, the ingredients for "Generations" are all there. Heck, this could've been Angela and Demona's "Long Way To Morning" but they just didn't know how to make it work.

A Bronx Tale is weird. I remember actually watching this one but I don't remember any of the finer details of the episode. Like I don't even remember how Bronx ended up in Pennsylvania in the first place much less how he met an Amish kid.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 6:51:37 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Matthew>

1. So yeah one detail of the charity livestream that you may have picked up on after Amity visits Willow is that their friendship is still in the mending period.

2. Luz's promise. Yeah if you listen close to the dialogue in the episode, you notice she misremembers what Camila had her promising.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 11:16:21 am EST from 71.84.183.196

Thanks for the latest review, Matthew.

One detail of this episode that amused me was that Raine's tea was being served in what looked like a mead-horn that would be at home on a table in Heorot or Valhalla.

ALEX - Thanks for your review of the latter half of "The Goliath Chronicles". One or two thoughts of my own on those episodes (which I've mentioned before).

1. To me, one of the major flaws of "Generations" is that it actually supports (without intending to) Demona's view of humans. All the humans in this episode (the Quarrymen, the invisible man, the woman pretending to be a crime victim) are hostile to the gargoyles, trying to destroy them - and they're not even honestly mistaken, people genuinely believing that the gargoyles are evil monsters threatening their homes and families, but know the truth about them (judging from their strategies), are willing to engage in deceit and treachery to slaughter them - without even a hint of Elisa or any other human who's accepted the gargoyles. Presumably the production team didn't think over the implications of that.

2. I still wonder whether Castaway's attack on the passenger train was added after Greg talked the "Goliath Chronicles" production team into dropping the original ending where the gargoyles would just abandon New York and split up - a case of "Okay, we can't use the original ending, so we'll have to come up with a way of showing the New Yorkers the truth about the gargoyles, and we don't have much time, so we'll just have to use the first idea we come up with and not examine it too closely." Because going after Angela and Bronx was one of the worst things Castaway could do. Up till then, the gargoyles had been at large, and he could pose as trying to protect the city from them (even if using methods, such as the heavy artillery in "For It May Come True", that ought to have cued everyone to his being ready to do more damage to the city than the gargoyles could have ever done, enough to make them doubt over whether this really was a case of mistaken good intentions). But Angela and Bronx are in the custody of the authorities, "safely incarcerated", the rest of the gargoyles are apparently dead, meaning that the emergency is over and there's no longer any reason to go about hunting the gargoyles. And Castaway and his followers show no sign of pondering how they're going to handle this PR problem. Now, if the script had portrayed Castaway as figuring out that the gargoyles had survived his trap and were going to rescue Angela and Bronx, and tried to make his attack look like an attempt to stop them - but Castaway shows himself to be genuinely astonished at Goliath, Hudson, and the trio showing up.

I almost wonder whether replacing the Quarrymen with a regular criminal organization out for revenge against the gargoyles for foiling all its past robberies and schemes would have made more sense.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 8:05:48 am EST from 70.176.217.135

All right time to poke the hornet's nest with some more TGC thoughts. Again, I'm *trying* to be generous, and *trying* to break these episodes down with my thoughts on what they are not what they could have been or what they weren't.

Generations - This one... is rough. This feels so much like a really, really rough first draft.

The sort of general outline of the plot makes a degree of sense. There are humans hunting Gargoyles, Angela and Demona need to team up to survive, Goliath doesn't trust Demona and wants Angela to stay away from her. Angela wants to have a connection with Demona, Demona wants to have a connection with Angela but can't let go of her hatred of Goliath or her personal war. Compelling drama, understandable conflict.

All the ingredients are kinda there. I guess.

But the assassin... whoever he is, is lame. The Quarrymen's role in the story is confusing and I think they were literally just using them as cannon fodder for fight scenes in this episode literally "the evil ninjas!". I really have so little to say about this. The scene with Angela and Demona bonding is super underwhelming. Also "it started as that but now I wouldn't hurt you for anything" doesn't really make sense when she literally gave up her romance and partnership with Thailog just to save Angela's life. I don't wanna bring up continuity really, but it's so blatantly nonsensical.

Frustratingly the episode knows what it's emotional core is, because the actual *ending* is fairly solid. Angela flies away, Demona sheds a single tear. Hokey, but like, it's something.

Ugh, just a frustrating exercise that is made worse by the fact that it's *SO* much worse than the Recknoning and hits similar emotional beats. And again I don't wanna judge this show on those merits, but it's just so hard not to in this case.

I kinda feel like this outline could work if you made it not about some random assassin, and just a story about Demona, Angela and the Quarrymen. I don't think the plot to kill Goliath was really needed. There is already enough cause for there to be conflict between Demona and Angela without Demona scheming against her. But I'd have to think a lot more about what that would look like.

Also this is the Angela episode of the Goliath Chronicles and it's... another story about her parentage. So there's that. Not a fan. But I'm looking forward to whatever the next Angela-Demona episode is in the comic because I think there's a lot of potential for good stories there.

A Bronx Tail - What was the pitch meeting for this? I guess they just wanted to do one episode for each of the major characters and this is the Bronx one. It's... fine. It's frivolous, it's nothing. It's cute I guess. This is another one of those "Wow that was a great episode of Talespin starring the Gargoyles" type episodes. I really have nothing to say about it. It's really funny how Disney Afternoon this show can get, though. That scene at the end with the reporter interviewing the kid is *SO* Ducktales/Talespin.

They use the Macbeth Siege Theme from City of Stone for the goofy scene where Bronx is like snowboarding with the kid down the hills of Pennsylvania. Which is so weird when you know what the music is.

Also of the Gargoyle characters Bronx is the one with the smallest tail, so... the name's actually a bit silly. Checkmate, TGC I guess.

For It May Come True - Um... this is another one that just feels like a weird first draft. "We wanna do It's A Wonderful Life, we want Goliath to turn into a human. Elisa is a Gargoyle Hunter, Xanatos is more villainous than he ever was really." But there's just no focus here. What is Goliath's regret here, how does this change actually effect the world? What does the opening scene with fighting John Castaway have to do with Titania's... dream thing. Also why Titania? I feel like they just used her because she's probably the most benevolent of the magical characters in the show, on a superficial level anyway. And they needed *someone* for it.

There's not even anything cute in this episode because the story is so bad. Goliath just spends the whole episode looking for the Clan without really exploring what his life as a human is *actually* like. What did he gain? What did he lose? I'm thinking of "For the Man Who Has Everything" (JLU) or "Perchance to Dream" (From BTAS) where the lead character had to give up their greatest desires to do the right thing and it's really sad.

Maybe make the story more about how being a "Glorified Librarian" just doesn't suit Goliath, how weak he is, how he can't protect people anymore and how he just isn't human. Hell, they could have done what Greg did in the SLG comics, Elisa breaks up with Goliath and Goliath wishes he were human so he could be with her, not realizing all the things he'd be giving up to do so. That's a powerful story even if it is somewhat trite.

God I dislike this one. The only thing I'll give it is even in an alternate universe where he's kind of a punk, Xanatos is still cool as hell.

To Serve Mankind - ...again this is just a gummi bears episode. Probably more gummi bears than Talespin this time. Like if Gummi Bears had assassination attempts in it, this could be a gummi bears episode. The whole opening is just bizarre and goofy. And I think it's kind of fun, but it really does not fit the show at all.

The Xanatos bits are fun I guess. I don't really mind do-gooder Xanatos that much. I dunno. There's not much else to say about this. In TGC Jaime Thomason really liked casting Jim Cummings in non-descript roles where I think the character was just super unclear and there wasn't much to them. (So Cummings could give them some of his natural charisma and charm) So Jim Cummings is the extremely underwhelming Illuminati/Chair whatever bad guy here.

Seeing Isn't Believing - I have so little to say about this episode. It is such a pile of nothing. Proteus isn't really a great bad guy in my opinion though the show really does get across how scary and powerful someone who could change their appearance could be which is interesting, but Roddy MacDowal is awesome. Michael Dorn is awesome. The whole Riddler plot is kinda lame. It's just so nothing.

The animation's pretty different. Doesn't look bad, but I don't really like it. Also Elisa is really annoying in this episode. Actually, to be honest, Elisa is really irritating in the entire Goliath Chronciles. They *really* missed the mark on her character and I guess if every character got an episode this is the Elisa one, because she really does *nothing* in any of the other stories. And it's... not great.

Angels of the Night - The script is again, fairly solid. Cary Bates just knows the characters and does a good job kind of re-centering them where they should be. A lot of the humour is more in a proper Gargoyles-style and it doesn't just feel like a weird Talespin misadventure. The whole plot of this episdode is *ridiculous*, though and even the solid scripting can't salvage that. We spend an entire act thinking the whole cast is dead and Angela & Bronx are imprisoned and there is just too much going on for a single episode. Margot Yale is also kind of the antagonist of the story and she's just not really that impressive an antagonist. It doesn't help that she's played by Tress MacNeille just doing a kind of by the numbers sitcom Karen thing. And don't get me wrong I *LOVE* Tress, but she's not utilized well here I don't think.

I guess they wanted to really wrap things up and give closure to the series. But that isn't what this giant cruise liner fantasy anthology is built for and I think once there was a world tour that was just never going to be the case. So what could they have done differently here? Honestly, make it a Margot Yale story instead of a John Castaway story. Make it that she is beating the pavement to bring the Gargoyles to justice, and then the whole train thing happens and she's convinced they have some value, maybe have some cool more beefed up Margot-Angela scenes where Angela tries to get through to her that they aren't just errant monsters and that they do have a place in society.

Make it a story about how Margot Yale comes to accept the Gargoyles. Rather than... humanity comes to accept the Gargoyles. Also kind of works as a nice book end with Vinnie in "The Journey".

It wouldn't make a ton of sense at the end of the day but it would have been a lot cleaner and I think a lot more impactful.

And yeah, so that was... the Goliath Chronciles, it was an experience. The second half was definitely *a lot* worse than the first half I think just because it was trying to do so much more. So as much as I chide it for ignoring the fantasy elements of the show, maybe that was for the best.

I think the main thing I enjoyed was just revisiting some art and vocal performances that I haven't seen so many times that I kinda know them off by heart. Keith David is great. Jonathan Frakes is great.

It's not a great show, but I didn't hate it and I think I found a lot about it that I enjoyed when I just took it on it's own merits.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Feb 9, 2023 12:14:56 am EST from 70.27.162.19

I was saying "Boo-los"

Watched "Follies at the Coven Day Parade" which catches us up on what happened to Raine, another Coven head shows her face, the Emperor reveals his own face and Amity shows off how protective she is of her girlfriend.

For Luz, a big issue for this episode is the fallout from the last episode, her less than ideal reunion with her mother and her promise not to come back to the Boiling Isles. It's a pretty unfair position all things considered, one is that her mother has every right to be concerned about her safety and is still going through the shock of finding out about Vee and that her daughter's stuck in another world. And the other is that Luz has fit in quite well on this strange world and has grown and matured quite a bit. This doesn't diminish the fact that Luz consciously chose to remain rather than return before things got so out of hand. But, this also doesn't change the fact that Luz became trapped by risking her life and safety to protect those in need. Like I said, the whole thing is unfair. And that's why she spends so much time lying to her friends about what happened in that reflection dimension and why she devotes so much time trying to sell the idea of the Boiling Isles to her mother, with little success (AND WHY DOES HOOTY'S SKIN COME OFF?). Having to confront the complexities of her situation and take a stand for the Demon realm is going to be a big part of her growth.

Speaking of complexities, this episode also brings up and deconstructs a few of Luz's...well let's call them Luzness. For starters, he plan to use Kikimora is solid. But she's approaching it through her own personal problems, of being torn between family and something else equally important The problem is that she didn't consider Kiki's ambitious, sycophantic nature would throw that away just for the sliver of possibly more power. Another big sticking point is her big romantic reunion plan. Again, on paper it's a solid plan, but neither Luz nor Eda considered the possibility that the Emperor's Coven would release an outspoken critic and traitor to the Empire and would not only release them but keep them as head of the Coven without some measure of control or that they would be keeping close tabs on them.

I once speculated about the Coven brands and whether they were some means of controlling the wearers. Well it seems like a far more sinister method is involved considering Terra Snapdragon and her "tea." The whole method of brainwashing someone before they regain their lucidity is very The Silver Chair, but it also seems to confirm that the heads of the covens are indeed following the Emperor of their own accord. Which is bad news all around because unlike Raine when conflict does come, there isn't going to be something deep in their minds holding them back.

To conclude we now have a date for the Day of Unity and a bit more insight on what that might be; seriously though, when you throw around words like "the chosen" and "utopian" in the same string of thought that should raise some serious red flags. But there's also that comment about Luz meeting the Emperor for the first time and what that means Assuming Terra isn't lying, who is it that Luz briefly battled at the end of season 1? A doppelganger? A magical construct? Is this a Corsican Brothers deal? Or is the unmasked one the doppelganger and the true Belos still hiding his face?

Some final thoughts: So apparently I've been mispronouncing Hecate the whole time, I've used the middle as pronounced as "cot", that's going to take some time to rework my brain. Hooty and King as parade float Belos was a fair amount of hilarity I never knew I needed, and that float was giving such a Buddy Christ vibe. So Amity is learning Spanish through cookbooks? That's neat and actually a good way of learning a new language.

Favorite Lines:

Gus: You know, I think he does it cause he’s shy. He’s just evil and shy. It happens.
Willow: I heard there’s just a mirror underneath. (The real emperor was society all along).
Gus: Maybe he’s so handsome people have a hard time focusing on what he says. I get it. I can relate.

King: Hot goss buns. Bread pun. Guess why we’re here!
Eda: King...
King: Eda hired someone to spy on her ex!
Eda: [Gasp] Did you read my diary?!
King: And they’re Head Witch of the Bard Coven!
Eda: Stop it! Stop it, stop it!
King: And they also–
Eda: Yes! They secretly led a rebel group against the Emperor and got captured! I was there!
King: Ooh. Uhhhhh....I didn’t read that far.

King: With my love of mayhem and Hooty’s desperate need for attention, this’ll be a cake walk!

"Belos": Hi! It’s me! Your good buddy Belos! Worship me!
Coven Scout: Kill that monstrosity!
Hooty: Not the first time I’ve heard that!

"Belos": Law is meaningless! Stealing is legal now! I am your god!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Feb 8, 2023 10:26:56 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

MATTHEW - Assuming you mean "poems by different authors - not just Longfellow's - about the twelve months of the year", I've come across at least two more sets.

One (which I posted here a couple of years ago) appeared in the Mutability Cantos at the end of Edmund Spenser's "Faerie Queene", a procession of the twelve months - starting with March and ending in February (back then, the year officially began on March 25) - with one month per stanza.

A certain Sara Coleridge wrote a poem dedicating a couplet (two lines) for each month, apparently aimed at younger readers, opening with "January brings the snow/ Makes our feet and fingers glow", then "February brings the rain/ Thaws the frozen lake again", and so on.

I know that John Updike also wrote a poem for each month, but I haven't read them all. There are probably more out there, which I'd like to track down.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2023 6:49:02 pm EST from 70.176.217.135

Hello, I'm Jacob Berkley, and I would like to join the Gargoyles Wiki as an editor. My username would be "GroovyJake" if that's alright. I recently got into the show and I'd love to help expand some articles.
GroovyJake - [adventuremaster18 at gmail dot com]
"Stay groovy!" - Groovy Jake
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2023 5:35:34 pm EST from 70.94.76.12

Out of curiosity, how many poems involving the months do you know?
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2023 4:12:13 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Thank you, Todd.
B
B
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2023 10:16:37 am EST from 74.74.246.146

First.

I am lustration; and the sea is mine!
I wash the sea and headlands with my tide;
My brow is crowned with branches of the pine;
Before my chariot-wheels the fishes glide.
By me all things unclean are purified,
By me the souls of men washed white again;
E'en the unlovely tombs of those who died
Without a dirge, I cleanse from every stain.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, "The Poet's Calendar", "February".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Feb 6, 2023 7:30:04 am EST from 70.176.217.135