Blaise > "Young at Heart" [SPOILER]
Thank you for sharing that. As I believe I mentioned in my review a few weeks ago, my 98-year-old grandmother is currently very ill, so the Halcyon scenes certainly hit home for me as well, but the circumstances you describe are particularly tough. Again, thank you for sharing, and I'm very sorry for your loss.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2024 12:41:41 pm EST from 24.46.161.74

Blaise> "Young At Heart" Spoilers (sorta): [SPOILER] I personally think a Bronx narrated issue could work great and be very cool if done right. Beasts tend to be pretty intelligent and able of complex communication. Bronx knows names and simple phrases as well as anyone and grasps tone. He also has a superior sense of friend and foe. All of that together would make for narration that wouldn't be barks and growls, but rather a series of names, ideas, emotions, and intuitions. Something like "Egwardo. Important. Must protect. Fu-Dog. Friend." or "Quarrymen. Enemies. Protect Gnash." All internal monologue stuff. That said, I don't expect Bronx to be given the final chapter coming up, but it could've been fun to read in the middle somewhere. [/SPOILER]
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2024 9:46:53 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Thanks for another fine review, Blaise.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2024 8:27:10 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Very well written Blaise.
[SPOILER] Xanatos still trying to keep up his usual demeanor and noticeably failing stood out to me. He's the type to acquire all kinds of adversaries throughout his life and career and despite treating so many like players or pawns in his game hardly holds any disdain for them. To lose such an adversary like this has to be a sobering moment, especially in light of "The Price" where the notion of aging and dying gnaws at him even if he doesn't want to admit it.

On a more personal note, you have my deepest sympathies for both your father's passing and that you weren't able to be there. I wish I could find something more profound or meaningful to say, but unfortunately I can't. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Jan 7, 2024 2:13:37 am EST from 64.85.245.77

****Blaise walks into the room. Yeah, he just...walks in like a normal person....****
Feeling a bit somber after this latest issue. Will ramble in this post, but first:

"LESSER" EPISODES> Nothing is perfect, and everyone has different tastes, so not every episode will be a hit. I remember being a bit cold to "The Silver Falcon" when it first premiered. Didn't help that it came after "The Mirror" (talk about a tough act to follow). Still, even episodes I didn't like at first have grown on me and I can appreciate them for what I do like.

If I had at make a list, though...
Ones where characters are behaving particularly...embarrassing can be difficult for me to sit through: specifically "Turf" with the Trio's behavior, and "Protection" with some of the "tough talk" our heroes are trying to do.
"The New Olympians" because of how monolithic their treatment of Elisa tends to come across.
And "Sentinel" has a character conceit that just pisses me off, that being "character is absolutely convinced they are right about something to the point of not considering they might be wrong." To be clear: I'm not saying there *shouldn't* be characters like that, or that such a trait doesn't make for good storytelling. It's just a behavior that just grinds my gears every time. At least Nokkar comes around in the end.

Other than that, though, my complaints about episodes would only be nitpicks and I still enjoy watching them all.


All right, onto the meat of this...

YOUNG AT HEART> [SPOILER] Gnash is our narrator for this issue (leaving Coldstone for the finale...unless Greg pulls a surprise and has it narrated by Bronx: “BARK BARK BARK, WOOF WOOF, GROWL, BOW WOW!” Translation: “I just stayed in the Rookery guarding the egg with Fu-Dog.”).
It’s nice to get the (literal) new kid’s take on things, and we learn that Brooklyn would gush about his brothers and the adventures they used to go on (not surprising). But, of course, Gnash hasn’t seen much of that “here in Manhattan” (title drop!) yet, not with the Trio having developed more separate lives, unintentionally drifting apart. But now the three of them--well, four with Gnash--are on their way to something.

We find out what that is with some flashbacks to multiple separate phone conversations inter-weaved with each other. I actually kind of like this: it makes it more interesting and investing to me to see these snippets of conversations and how they inform each other. As I understand it:
1) Tony manages to get a call to his sister and accuse Dino of giving the “thumbs up to have [him] taken out.” Antoinette would not be entirely unaware of this (she overheard Dino and Wolf’s conversation), but hearing it from Tony with these words is more fuel for the “my uncle has to go down” fire.
2) Izaak Slaughter is able to get a conference call going with Dane and the heads of the other Families (not surprising: even during open hostilities, the option for “diplomatic entreaties” may exist). Izaak has apparently fingered Dino as the “chess-master” manipulating them against each other, much to the disbelief of the others. Dino would be the last person they picture as a Manipulative Bastard; as they remember him, he was “not a plotter” or “schemer” but “a howitzer with a hair-trigger.” But as Izaak points out, this loose cannon has been uncharacteristically quiet while the rest of the gangs fight each other.
3) Whatever the result of the above, it seems that something (maybe even just learning about the conference call itself) is enough to make Dino realize that his plans are starting to come apart. As Glasses points out, Dino’s “rep” (everything Yingpei, Grisha and Jack said) has been keeping him beneath suspicion so far. But now, Dino decides it’s time to escalate and...yeah the implication he’s going to kill Rosaria and Peter is pretty obvious. Both to us and to Antoinette listening in on the call.
4) And it looks like she immediately calls Broadway (I wonder who gave her this direct number to the Eyrie Building...).
I love the placement of the panels here: the interplay between the crime conference call and Dino’s discussion with Glasses, especially, are great.
And then there’s Antoinette’s plea to Broadway to *protect* two innocent people (she knows to use that word...). Whatever suspicions I have regarding Antoinette, her motives, and her connection(s) to Xanatos and/or Elisa (we still don’t know who her C.I. is) will have to wait, though, as there are other things going on.

For example: Captain Maria Chavez lambasting Elisa Maza. Chavez shoots down the idea (before anybody says anything) that keeping this secret was in any way protecting her. More than anything, in this scene, it seems Maria is most upset about the secret itself. Yeah, the consequences are going to suck, no mistake about that, but what she goes on about was not being told about the gargoyles despite all the opportunities Elisa had to come clean with her. And Elisa doesn’t have anything to say for herself...yet. It’s coming in the next scene (though it admittedly isn't much).
Artwise: I love the detail of Elisa’s eyes moving between panels--a clear indication that Maria is pacing while venting. I’ve seen some remarks on how Chavez is drawn here, but honestly I feel like she looks...closer to what she should look like than before in these comics (at least her hair and eye colors are closer to what they were in the series).

But back to Gnash and the Trio. Brooklyn questions that the source of this tip came from a Dracon, and points out that, while the intel may have been good before, it could still be a trap for them. I don’t view this as overly cautious since this is a good possibility to consider. But then, Brooklyn says “Look, Goliath should be back here any second...” as if he wants to wait for Goliath to make the call. That did surprise me: it’s possible that previous events (Goliath electing to stay in prison, Broadway and Lex going AWOL) shook his confidence, but Brooklyn led the clan for about SIX MONTHS during the Avalon World Tour. Granted it was just him, his brothers, and his father/mentor/former leader (and a cat), but still he kept them together.

Of course, Goliath *isn’t* going to be back any second because he is...
OK, the main image of this page--Halcyon practically dwarfed by his bed, on a respiration device, with family and loved ones around...this image made me stop. It affected me not just on a “viewer” level, or as a fan of “Gargoyles” but also on a personal level. I’ll get to that separately, after finishing this issue’s ramble. But yeah, this was a powerful image.

Back to “Now” we see that Brooklyn’s seeming attempt to defer responsibility really wasn’t. With the full line, I wonder if his meaning may have been more along the lines of “I should be here to greet and debrief Goliath.” Either way, potential innocents in danger trumps all else so they’re off!
Once they’re out in the city, Lex expresses surprise that they didn’t have to talk Brooklyn out of waiting for Goliath, but Brooklyn brings up the “Gargoyles Protect” motto (that’s getting a lot of play this story arc, now that I think about it). However, he does insist that they do it his way: with recon and planning. And Broadway and Lex enthusiastically agree, calling him “captain” and “boss.” I remember how eager they were to go with Brooklyn to spring Goliath, and it occurs to me that part of the reason for their distance from Brooklyn may be that they both felt...abandoned by him to some extent. The chance to fight as a team, just like they used to before the Timedance, is something I think they’ve wanted for a long time. As for Brooklyn, I don’t know if he necessarily wanted it in the same way as they did, but (as a “responsible adult”) he was probably more willing to subsume that for what he felt needed to be done. But sometimes, you just need to spend some “quality time” with your family. Speaking of which: is anyone else surprised Brooklyn brought Gnash along (especially after saying he couldn’t go on patrol back in “A Little Crazy”)? I guess he figured trying to talk the kid out of going would waste valuable time and, besides, Gnash is not just a kid. He’s a Gargoyle kid who has seen his fair share of adventure and danger. Heck, maybe more than his fair share since he’s a time traveler. For his part, Gnash is eager to see his father and “uncles” (I guess) in action.

Back to the police station where Chavez has sat down and we see that Matt has apparently been in the room, too. Elisa is clearly torn up about this, sadly agreeing with Captain Chavez that she could have told her about the gargoyles but didn’t. And Maria just asks “Why not?” I love Maria’s face in this panel: this isn’t anger anymore (or at least, not just anger) but an honest question to someone who, in many ways, is like family. It hasn’t been officially stated in the series (animation or comic) yet, but Chavez used to work under Elisa’s dad, and knows the family well. And she has worked with Elisa for years, probably covered for her a lot, too (missing guns, vanishing without a word, etc.). This isn’t just about the heat from above; this is the pain of a betrayal. And Elisa starts to go into her explanation (not excuse) but Bluestone steps in to say he’s already heard it and “it’s a tad selfish, but it makes sense.” Okay, Matt, not wrong but maybe a bit harsh. Of course, by saying this Matt has put his own neck on the block, although Chavez is not terribly shocked by this revelation (and she has no fuzzy feelings to mitigate her anger to him). But Matt has apparently been thinking ahead and says he has a solution to Chavez’s “press, public and powers-that-be problem” (okay, I’m a sucker for alliteration). I find it interesting that the punishment Matt thinks they would get without his suggestion is being “bust[ed] down to meter maids” and not just, you know, getting thrown off the force. Of course, he’s probably trying to make a joke about it, so who knows what would have happened?

We see the not-Trio at their Abandoned Warehouse (tm) (it’s funny how many of those things you can find) where “Brooklyn” tells Rosaria and Peter that they’re “sending [them] home.” Rosaria seems a bit more disbelieving than Peter, though, and that would be the appropriate response given that “Brooklyn” orders “Broadway” and “Lexington” to start laying out tarps. Up above in the rafters, Our Heroes (tm) have been watching and Brooklyn (the real one) has a plan.

Back at Renard’s death bed (that’s what it is), the dying man says he’s laid everything out in his will. By the way, I love how the dialogue echoes from the previous page (Dino mentions not to leave a mess while Halcyon says there’s “no need for this to be messy”--similar statements for two very different things). Halcyon has laid out a will and says there’s nothing Xanatos can do about it. Xanatos, of course, says that he “wouldn’t dream of trying” and there is no lie on his face: no smirk, nothing. He’s lied before, of course, and done very well at it, but this is one of those situations where his standards come into play. Actually, this sequence (this scene and a later one) appears to be the first and only time we actually see Xanatos and Renard interact directly. We know Renard despised Xanatos, but oddly enough the only sentiment we’ve seen from Xanatos is concern for Renard (back in “Outfoxed”). It’s an odd dynamic, and I would have liked to have seen more interactions between them (back when Halcyon was healthier). Maybe in flashbacks...
At any rate, everything Halcyon owns is owned by Cyberbiotics (which he seems to own 100% anyway--go Halcyon!). He splits it up, with 49% going to the newly named CEO: his daughter. Fox, for her part, remarks that this is not at all the way she wanted to acquire it, leading to Halcyon actually showing some amusement (before suffering a coughing fit). Another 49% is going to his grandson, Alex, but since Alex is still a baby, that portion will be held in “trust and proxy” by the newly named COO: Preston Vogel. Well...Renard knows that the two of them have worked fairly well together in the past...
But the big news is the remaining 2%, which, as Xanatos points out, can be tie-breaking. Renard has bequeathed that to...GOLIATH! Much to the gargoyle’s shock and consternation as well as Xanatos’s endless amusement. Love the quip about “it’s not exactly Thailog money.” And Xanatos places a hand on Goliath’s shoulder..check for tracking chips, big guy. (Yeah, there’s no reason for Xanatos to plant a bug, but old habits..)
Yeah, I did not see this coming. Goliath inheriting a small fortune...this will be interesting.

Back at the warehouse, the tarps are being laid out and Rosaria asks why they’re “really” doing that. I don’t know if it is naivete on her part, legitimately not knowing what the tarps are for, or a growing fear that she is desperately looking for anything to alleviate (a sort of “This is a joke, right?” thing). Either way, it doesn’t matter as Our Heroes (tm) leap in to save the day! Brooklyn and his brothers handle their doppelgangers (with Brook’s requisite quip about the mask being out-of date) while Gnash frees the captives. But it seems Dino--sorry, “Brooklyn” was clever enough to prepare for something like this...by having more men waiting out of sight and outfitting them with exo-frame armor (similar models to what Demona used in “The Reckoning”)! Oh, and masks of the rest of the clan, too. Dino has a theme and he’s sticking to it. By Brooklyn’s face, these extra mooks and their armor were *very* well hidden.

The events in the warehouse now take up most of the following pages with Halcyon’s final farewells occupying a strip on top. The first is Goliath, whom Halcyon first apologizes to for...well, the past seven issues of crap he went through. But Halcyon needed Goliath to “have standing” in order to be able to inherit the 2% of Cyberbiotics. That inheritance has clearly been planned by Renard for a while now (my guess is at least since “Golem”), and with his death fast approaching, this underhanded, “Xanatosian” plot was his desperate attempt to move things into place before he goes. Like I said before, this sort of scheming is clearly not Renard's strong suit considering how many things could have gone wrong, but he managed to (mostly) get what he wanted. Of course, Goliath would like to know why Halcyon wants him to get 2% of Cyberbiotics since darn it, Halcyon, he’s a gargoyle not an entrepreneur. But it’s not about being a good businessman...it’s about being a good person: protecting Alex’s inheritance and teaching the boy to “use it with integrity.” That makes sense, given everything the boy’s parents and proxy have done. And given this reasoning, I’m willing to bet that Renard was behind Tobe Crest, as well. We’ll find out soon enough, I’m sure.

Warehouse battle time: Brooklyn knows about the frames’ defenses (he should, he got shocked by one before), but Lex knows their weakness. But “job one” is avoiding their..guns? Lasers? I can’t remember what these things have. Well, gargoyles are good at dodging incoming fire anyway.

Renard: He’s saying good-bye to Preston Vogel, now, thanking him for his loyalty. And Owen’s there, too. I love Halcyon’s amusement at their similarities (and another Shakespeare reference), along with Preston’s confusion (or obstinance) about it and Owen’s own amusement at that. Hey Owen, your Puck is showing again.

Warehouse: Gnash is trying to get the teenagers to safety (odd to think that he’s technically older than them), but Pete is a little weirded out about going with a little gargoyle. Thankfully, Rosaria is a little more on the ball and Pete isn’t a complete idiot. Unfortunately, “Brooklyn” has caught up with them and is carrying a pretty big boomstick...

Renard: He says good-bye to the Xanatos family in these two panels. I remember Greg saying he intended for Goliath, Fox, Alex, Preston and Anastasia to be there when Renard died, so the presence of Xanatos and Owen was a bit of a surprise. Still, it makes sense that Xanatos would want to be there for Fox and Alex (and Owen has his own history with the old man, too). For his part, Renard charges Xanatos to take care of Fox and Alex, calling him a “rogue” for good measure, and Xanatos just says “Always.” Renard will never like Xanatos, but I think he’s learned that whatever other failings the man has, David will always put Fox and Alex first so he can trust him that much.
It seems Renard goes by “papa” with Alexander. I wonder how much Alex will remember him...
And finally, Janine...or Fox, rather. I like that Renard calls her by her preferred, legal name at the end. And I like that they both admit that, while Halcyon wasn’t an “easy father” and Fox wasn’t an “easy daughter”, they always loved each other. Fox's lines in particular...I can just hear Laura San Giacomo giving a hell of a performance there.

Warehouse: Lex can fly circles around the exo-frames but can't take them out, so he keeps them occupied along with Broadway per Brooklyn’s instructions. For his part, Brooklyn pulls out his rifle and uses the first blast to shoot “Brooklyn’s” gun out of his hand. This gives Gnash an opening to tackle the older, bigger human to the ground (it’s easy to forget that Gnash is a gargoyle child until he pulls stuff like this). He also calls out the guy as a “big bully,” which makes me wonder if bullies are a particular sore spot for Gnash. Oh, and there’s some cracks about pathetic cosplay (I wonder if the guy wearing the Angela mask had that as his first choice, assuming he had a choice and this isn’t a “you’re Mr. Pink” thing).

Renard: The final goodbye is to Titania. Or rather, Anastasia. Halcyon, with a smile, says she doesn’t have to pretend for him, but she says there was nothing “pretend” about her life as Anastasia Renard, nor about her feelings for Halcyon, who she calls “love.” It’s a lovely, touching moment that once again highlights the multi-faceted nature of the Third Race. Being another person is not always just like wearing a different set of clothes...

Warehouse, final: Broadway and Lex have managed to get the frames lined up so Brooklyn can blast their hydraulics, de-powering the armor and trapping the mooks inside. The gargoyles prioritize getting the kids out over doing anything to their foes, though, and beat a hasty retreat before any more surprises appear. “Brooklyn” removes his mask and reveals that all this time he’s really been...Dino Dracon! And confirms that “Broadway” is Glasses!
ME (ala Fry in “Futurama”): I’m shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.
Yeah, I don’t think this was meant to be any big plot twist reveal. I think it’s a little more along the lines of Macbeth wearing the modified Hunter mask in “City of Stone.” You know who’s wearing the mask, the more interesting question is “Why?” I’ve got my thoughts, but I’ll wait until the end of “Here in Manhattan” before sharing.
More concerning, however, is that Dino says he still has “one last round in his chamber” that will bring “all of Manhattan to its knees.” I feel like we’re about to see the “howitzer” version of Dino Dracon...

But for now, Rosaria and Peter are saved (and really enjoying being carried through the air by the gargoyles). The Trio are happy at how things turned out and Gnash (silently) crows that “The Trio is officially back!” That may just be the optimism (and oversimplification) of youth, but this is a good first step for them. The issues between these brothers do need to be addressed more directly to keep them from festering, but sometimes the ice needs to be broken before that can happen. Working together like old times can be a heck of an icebreaker.

But this final page is a flip of the ones that came before: the Trio story takes up the larger top portion of the page, with the bottom strip devoted to one final image of Renard and the line, “He’s gone..”
Once again, there’s a personal element there for me, that I’ll get to in a bit.

Heavy stuff here. In addition to progression on the gangland arc and setting the stage for the finale, we have the passing of Halcyon Renard. We may see him in flashbacks or similar, but we will not see him in the flesh again. A good, solid issue. [/SPOILER]


THE PERSONAL ELEMENT> (some spoilers for "Young at Heart")
[SPOILER] CONTENT WARNING: Death in the family
Late in 2021, my father passed away. It happened very suddenly...from the perspective of me, my siblings, my mother (his ex) and basically everyone who didn't interact with him on a daily basis. He had kept his health issues and hospitalizations from us (and may even have downplayed them in his own head). I didn't even know he was ill until I got the call that he was no longer conscious. I wasn't able to physically be there for various reasons, but my brother (bless him) was able to get there and use video calling so I and my sister (both in different states) were able to look in and speak through the phone. I remember seeing my father briefly through that video call on the bed: hooked up to a breathing machine, looking pale and so much smaller than I had ever seen him in my life. The image of Halcyon Renard in that bed flashed my mind to that. And, after the video chat, saying the final good-byes, getting a text from my brother an hour later: "He's passed."
Again, that final line of the comic really hit me for that reason.

I think a lot of people have an instance of something similar happening to a loved one in their lives, and I'd imagine this comic could affect them in the same way. It's well-done, I guess is what I'm saying. [/SPOILER]


I haven't read "Dark Ages" issue 5 yet, so that will have to wait until the physical release. I look forward to discussing it then.
****Blaise takes a deep breath, and makes his way out of the room.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Sat, Jan 6, 2024 10:42:47 pm EST from 45.48.54.221

Happy Twelfth Night, everyone! The first "Twelfth Night" since "Gargoyles" gave its play-namesake a nod with a "Malvolio" as one of the players visiting Wyvern Hill.

Speaking of which, I've now read both "Gargoyles" #11 and "Dark Ages" #5.

[SPOILER]

Gnash was the narrator of # 11 - I'd expected that, since while I'd avoided spoilers for that issue, I'd picked up that its name was "Young at Heart", and that one really fitted him - which means that Coldstone will probably be the narrator of #12.

We get the "Chavez chewing out Elisa" scene that we've been expecting. I'm curious to see what the solution proposed at the end will be, and whether it's linked to Renard making Goliath one of his heirs.

Now, Renard leaving Goliath some of his money in his will was something I don't think any of us were expecting, and it'll be interesting to see what comes of it. Goliath, naturally, isn't too thrilled - no doubt a case of "Money is a natural evil in Xanatos's world, but not in ours" - but I suspect it'll prove necessary for helping the clan in what lies ahead.

We got some good drama scenes at Renard's passing. I particularly liked his continuing to call Fox "Janine" [sic], her mention that this wasn't how she'd wanted to acquire it (a nice echo of the end of "Outfoxed"), the scene with Preston and Owen (Renard even manages to bring in another Shakespeare quote), and with Anastasia.

The big rescue/fight scene. As I'd thought, the trio do battle with the kidnappers while they're wearing the "trio masks", and Brooklyn even brings up how the mask of him is out of date (also as I'd expected). What I hadn't expected was the guys in the battle suits wearing more gargoyle masks; that was a neat surprise. (I suppose they're the same make as the one Demona was wearing at the start of "The Reckoning".)

Dino's got one last plan; I hope there's room in #12 for both it and the impending change for the gargoyles (cf. the scene with Elisa, Matt, and Chavez).

DARK AGES #5: We now meet Wyvern the Dragon - and I certainly hadn't expected just how much of a connection he had with the gargoyles (including that he has stone sleep; dragons and gargoyles must indeed be close biological relatives. It's appropriate, though, given that in medieval legend, the word "gargoyle" originated from a dragon named Gargouille - though Gargouille lived in France rather than Scotland). I hope there's room in #6 to resolve his confrontation with the people at Wyvern, both human and gargoyle. (Though we got a great ending line - "By the Dragon - it's a dragon!")

I assume that the "ghost-cage" Antiope mentioned is the megalith from "Shadows of the Past".

Lexington can already read; I'd like to know how he learned. (We also see Broadway's remark, foreshadowing his initial stubborn illiteracy in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time".) We also see his interest in the machinery at the building site - I wonder if that was adapted from the dropped scene in "Awakening Part One" where he was examining one of the Viking catapults.

And we see Angel's reading lessons, starting with fables; I recognized "The Scorpion and the Frog" and "Belling the Cat".

Oh, and it turns out my theory about the Italian play the players were performing was incorrect; it was a pre-Shakespeare version of "Othello". I wonder if any of the future ColdTrio saw it.

Looking forward to #12 and $6 of their respective series, and as I said above, I hope there'll be room in those two to complete the stories satisfactorally. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2024 8:05:15 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Still haven’t had a chance to catch up on the DA #5 posts but on the current topic…

I think speculation is natural and I’ve certainly done it as well. I’m also very interested in the behind-the-scenes minutiae as I guess most people are.

The problem is that the internet is so porous that these things can metastasise quickly - perhaps more quickly than ever before.

I don’t think you were ill-intended for a second, Craig, and I appreciate what your forensic mind brings to the discussion. But I do think Greg’s point about perspective is spot on - important, thought-provoking and necessary.

I think there’s more to say - a lot more - about the changing nature of internet discussion. I personally have changed my views a lot about how I approach discussion on this board in recent weeks and I’m continuing to rethink that. But I’ve got to run so it’ll have to wait for now!
Ed
posted @ Fri, Jan 5, 2024 1:58:47 am EST from 86.137.87.177

Just to be fully clear, I NEVER meant to imply that Disney "has it in" for the book, or in any way is trying to intentionally sabotage it or whatever. I wasn't aware that these conspiracy theories are out there, and I certainly DO NOT believe that (hadn't even considered it). I was just engaging in some (what I thought was) lighthearted speculation, based largely on what Greg himself shared during the SLG run, that Disney's approvals process was a primary source of delays at that time, and the new set of credits that mysteriously popped up in the latest issue (in all likelihood, for completely innocent and random reasons...quite possibly these people have been involved in the book all along and someone just decided it would be nice to start crediting them...but I'm a dork and I enjoy analyzing this kind of minutiae). I'll steer away from this topic in future, as it's clearly a more touchy and controversial subject than I realized.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 8:40:09 pm EST from 24.46.162.184

I've wondered whether the conspiracy theories are partly due to "Gargoyles" being very different from the kind of things that Disney normally does, making it easier for people to suspect that any troubles it runs into being Disney having a "What are we doing, producing this dark action show>? That's not who we ware!" I suspect that if the same thing was happening with a similar property produced by a company that came out with such material much more regularly, there'd be far fewer conspiracy theories about its setbacks.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 7:07:44 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

I like Greg B's idea of the robot response. This reminds me of Russell T Davies' idea of the need for writers to be constantly "turning" characters. Russell is the master of this - there are moments in "It's A Sin" and "Cucumber", sometimes in the final seconds of an episode, that take my breath away from just a little offhand comment that completely shatters everything and yet it's all done so lightly with a swagger and a joke.

It's worth quoting him from his book "The Writer's Tale" which is a collection of real-time emails to a journalist about his writing process from 2007-9 when he was running three shows simultaneously.

I suppose I do know already exactly what [his new character would] do in given circumstances . . . with the proviso that anyone can do anything in any circumstance. You should never mark out a character so formally that their reactions are fully defined, because none of us is like that; we’re slightly different every day, with different people, with each different mood. You have to keep turning characters in the light. One of my favourite Doctor moments ever is the opening of Gridlock, where he lies about Gallifrey having been destroyed. It’s a tiny lie. He omits the fact that his home world is gone. But, for the Doctor, that’s seismic. I had nothing interesting in that scene until I discovered that. I found a completely new way of understanding the Doctor, a new way of revealing his history, and better still a tiny piece of narrative that sustains the Doctor/Martha relationship throughout that episode.

If characters keep turning, moving, thinking, shifting, if they aren’t fixed, then they can do anything. Just like real people. A prerequisite of a good story is that the audience watches the central character – or characters – change, even if the characters themselves aren’t aware of that process happening. I’m trying to think of a film or drama in which that doesn’t happen. I’m sure they exist, but . . . do you see? They’ve been forgotten. Even in something as simple as High School Musical – in fact, that’s so simple and underwritten, the change is poking out of the carcass so even blind passers-by can give it a good feel. The school jock becomes an arts boy; the geeky girl breaks out of her math class; even the villainous valley girl, in the most appalling and sudden about-turn, becomes nice (that’s a failed change, because it comes from nowhere, and demeans her). The template, Grease, does it even better, because you really feel them change in that. If a story is good, then someone changes. You can apply that principle from Grease to Hamlet to Teletubbies. There is no low-art and high-art divide here. My God, that scene in Monsters, Inc. where the monsters realise that their entire world is founded on hurting children – look at that for a change! Two galumphing cartoon characters making a shattering realisation about their world and their role in sustaining it. A truly epic moment. It’s stunning.

I suppose what I’m saying is that a character can act in any way in character. They can be good, bad, happy, sad, liars, lovers, but in a way that’s still unique to themselves. To stretch the metaphor: keep turning them, but not so fast and so often that they become blurred.


From a later email:

I was doing further production rewrites on Pompeii today, and thinking about our e-mails earlier in the year, and what I said about characters, that you should keep turning them, keep seeing them in new lights, so they live a bit more. Now, James didn’t have time to get his Pompeii script to that stage of finessing, so he only got the Caecilius family to first base – the father was henpecked, Metella was a nag, Quintus was sullen, Evelina was girlish. Fine, good starting point, and James made them much more distinct than a lot of writers would have done. But then the turning must start. Take Quintus (who only has 25 or so lines, so theoretically a small part, but it’s true that no parts are small) – a lot of my rewrite consisted of turning him, like a barbecue, making sure that he’s cooked all the way through. Metaphor heaven! In my rewrite, he’s sullen and hung over when he first appears, but then he deepens as he defends his sister before his parents (‘But she’s sick!’), then greedy when the Doctor offers him money to take him to where Lucius lives, then as scared as a little kid when they break into Lucius’ quarters (‘Don’t tell my dad!’), then brave when he throws the burning torch at the soldiers to escape Lucius, then magnificent back at the Caecilius’ villa when he kills the Pyrovile with the bucket of water. And then he’s transformed at the end: the sullen youth has become a doctor himself, the image of his hero. That’s what I mean by turning. No one is fixed. They’re all capable of change – not just once in some plot-reveal, but all the time. They become more distinct by allowing them a fuller life. Quintus goes through a lot of stuff, but there’s still an essential Quintus-ness to him, which only gets richer as he turns.

I think "Turf" is an interesting example of this. The Trio can be heroic, boorish, funny, competitive - many different shades even within the space of individual scenes. Those aren't flavours we always see in the characters but that's a feature not a bug. It doesn't need to have any deeper meaning about who they are - I think we all can think of times when we made prats out of ourselves in the 90s but thankfully our prattish moments aren't available on DVD and for streaming via Disney+.

Also, the rift that starts to form here is still not yet fully healed during "Here in Manhattan".


DARK AGES #5

Thanks for the heads up, Matt! Through lack of time, I haven't read other people's reactions first. I'll try to get to them this weekend and respond if possible but it's a bit of a hectic time.

[SPOILER]
THANKS
A lot of special thanks on this one. Don't recognise any of the names so not sure who/why.

LOLLYGAGGING
Great job from Greg in getting the word "lollygagging" in. My dad likes saying it so I do too but I'm not sure I've seen anyone else using it. The Malcolm/Mentor relationship is fun. I also like the way it's acknowledged that the gargoyles significantly expedite proceedings.

NIGHTWORK
I love how Robbie is in this scene. And it's telling that Goliath so early embraces 'the dream' of human/gargoyle unity.

DAYWORK
Fun seeing a new side of Lefty with the Trio - a bit of humour and a paternal side. Also, of course, Lex is already thinking in terms of efficiency. One of the things I'll be really interested in if 'Dark Ages' progresses is how we see that side of Lex expressed in a time when technology was far more primitive.

ROOKLINGS
I love the young Trio. Broadway is incapable of lying, Lexington is kind of indignant at being blamed for his brother's mischief and Brooklyn is smart enough to cover and also fully game for exploring the cave - a swashbuckler already. I also think Drew Moss does a particularly excellent job at young Broadway.

ANTIOPE
I love Alesand and Antiope's relationship (and Broadway's "what did she do?"). It'll be so interesting to see how this develops.

TORCH
I'm not clear if the torch is pre-lit (which is, surely, a red flag although the colouring suggests it wasn't lit) or if he finds a way to light it.

CHICKEN SCRATCHES
Lovely to see how the characters view reading at this point. Brooklyn is dismissive of it but sees the utility. Broadway doesn't see the utility - it's just confusing.

GHOST CAGE
An intriguing comment. A premonition of "Shadows" or... a hint as to a deeper significance behind the Megalith Dance that has yet to be fully explored?

OUT OF THE METAPHORYING PAN
Okay, so the dragon is definitely not a metaphor and isn't even particularly linked to the dreaming. Although I never seriously thought the dragon wouldn't take physical form, I thought this was going to get more spiritual and existential - maybe linking to the Dreamtime - but we have a proper, classic-style dragon. Awesome.

LOST RACE
I guess this is confirmation that the dragons are the fourth intelligent race native to Earth. They clearly aren't of the Third Race and they're definitely intelligent. I'm so glad. I feel like dragons are such an interesting and iconic legend and it just opens up so many possibilities.

WICK THE WEAVER
New character mention! And a hint about - presumably - Tom's father and his potential reason for leaving Tom and Mary which is quite different from what I might have supposed.

THE SCORPION AND THE FROG
Oh, Demona reading this is... more than I can possibly unpack in this post. It's... wow. (The bell the cat story might be an interesting insight into #6 but I feel like "The Scorpion and the Frog" is such an interesting microcosm of so many issues at the heart of Demona's arc and 'Dark Ages').

DRAGONROAR
Fascinating that we now have a third species (counting beasts and gargoyles as two) that can turn to stone and yet this one doesn't seem bound by the seasons. Clearly there's a closer relationship between dragons and gargates too which makes a lot of sense. Lovely.

AND AN OPPORTUNITY
I love what a jerk the Archmage is. The scenes imply that everyone is sensing/gearing up for the dragon but as Greg often zigs when we expect to zag, I wonder if the Archmage will have a quite different plan in mind. Although Demona's scene on the last page suggests it's going to be quite closely linked.

FOUNDER'S DAY
Intriguing that the dragon founded the clan... I love that even a prequel has a deep history to dig into.

PILOT SEASON
While I loved 'Bad Guys', "Redemption" had its hands full just introducing and fleshing out six new protagonists. But because it has more existing characters to fall back on, it really feels like "Alliance" has opened up the universe in huge ways. Hudson's mate, the dragon of Wyvern Hill, Hyppolyta... these are huge things we've waited ages for.

INTO THE FIRE
I love how savage the dragon is. Sometimes 'Gargoyles' takes on characters can be a bit left-field. I don't think anyone would have expected Scheherazade to appear as she did. But the dragon is really classic. I guess Greg can't resist the iconic.

YOU HAD TO MENTION
More classic young Trio stuff - I like how Lex really doesn't have any people skills yet.


I enjoyed the back-up story but I kind of want to reread the previous ones as it's been a few months. I'm really looking forward to reading through the whole of "Here in Manhattan" and "Alliance" in a month or so.

Such a massive issue. Can't begin to think how Greg is going to wrap this up in just one issue mind you.

I'll probably have more another time. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 1:18:39 pm EST from 86.137.87.177

Phoenician > I think 2-3 months is a fair estimate for the most recent issues. Ten weeks between Gargoyles #10 and #11. Twelve weeks between Dark Ages #4 and the current projected release date for #5. (I'm going by the official release dates, not these weird early digital releases that seem to be accidental.) Of course, before the most recent issues, the schedule has been very regular.

Bishansky > Nothing I said was meant to bring on "gloom and doom" or to indicate any worry on my end! I just enjoy this kind of behind the scenes speculation. Greg Weisman himself was happy to discuss this kind of thing back in the SLG days. I always looked forward to his routine updates about which issue was currently being scripted/drawn, how long the Disney approvals process in those days took, etc. I just find the production aspect interesting, that's all. As I've said before, the delays don't bother me; the only thing that annoys me is how poorly Dynamite has been handling the PR end of it in terms of streamlining the way they present the release schedule to the public. I don't think anyone in this small comment room community is worried about the book (reddit is another story, maybe). But I'm happy to stop discussing this kind of thing if it makes people uncomfortable or is causing bad feeling, and I apologize if that's the case.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 12:18:24 pm EST from 24.46.161.144

Greg Bishansky: The Voice of Optimism.

If he's not worried, I'm not.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 12:13:25 pm EST from 204.184.178.1

CRAIG> "putting on my Matt Bluestone conspiracy cap"

I would refrain from speculating about why the books have been delayed. This is not a unique issue to Gargoyles comics, or to Dynamite. It happens at every comic book company... licensed books or not. These are products being put together by human beings and sometimes delays happen. It happens at Marvel, it happens at DC. I've been reading your conspiracy theories and I guarantee you none of them are anything approaching the reality of the production process. Delays happen in this industry. Sometimes someone gets sick. Sometimes their computer doesn't work. Maybe a machine broke down at the printers. Sometimes a family emergency comes up. Sometimes x happens, sometimes y happens.... btw, I am not saying or hinting at any kind of cause.

But I see other people beginning to worry about things where there's nothing to worry about. I had someone come at me on Discord moaning the doom and downfall of the book because they read someone's conspiracy theory on reddit. The book is doing well. The book is not in danger. The Mouse isn't trying to kill it. The Mouse isn't trying to hinder it.

Let's keep some perspective and not worry about things until we have a substantial reason to worry.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 11:55:21 am EST from 67.189.167.107

Craig: Except that there hasn't been a 2-3 month delay between any of the issues. Sure, the initial solicitation date may have been off, but overall, every issue has been released from each other within a month-and-a-half at most. Granted, I am counting issues from both the main comic, the Halloween special, and the spin-off, but considering the overlap of people involved, I think it's an accurate count.
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 11:49:24 am EST from 72.216.220.229

I'm now putting on my Matt Bluestone conspiracy cap, and wondering whether the new "special thanks" credit that appears in Dark Ages #5, listing nine Disney Publishing editors/managers, indicates some change in the approvals process at Disney, with perhaps more people getting involved, and whether that might explain the delay of 2-3 months for the most recent issues of both titles. (Pure, speculation, of course, but interesting timing.)
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 11:32:59 am EST from 24.46.162.190

Well, I'll be getting Gargoyles #11 this Friday and it's going to be my first comic store run for 2024.

Anyway, like with Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes, Josh Keaton provided the voice of Peter Parker for the 2002 Spider-Man game based off the movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5I6vz5f-4

Unlike AEMH, they did work to preserve some of his efforts by making a mode where you play as Harry Osborn/Green Goblin.

Some in game like saving a lady on a rooftop being a cleat example. Video has some which didn't make it to the game such as a narrative bit starting at 27:57.
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 7:37:16 am EST from 71.84.183.196

I tend to take long breaks in-between re-watches because I want the series to feel fresh and special again. As such, I don't usually spend too much time looking for weaker episodes, not when there's an entire non-canon season conveniently there to ignore. Are some episodes stronger than the others? Sure, according to each viewer there is. "Turf" could've ended up much worse as others have pointed out and I'll admit that the change in dynamic is certainly believable, an attractive female of the species throws all the relationships out of whack rather unintentionally.

"Vendettas" was written as a comedy and I think it succeeded, Jeff Bennett's rather pathetic "Aw man" right before the forklift tips into the river still gets a chuckle out of me. In retrospect, I rather like the theme of Vengeance vs. Satisfaction here and how it would later be used more seriously in the Young Justice episode "Satisfaction."

The similarities in "Heritage" and "Cloud Fathers" are certainly there but as Craig pointed out, there's a touch of real world tragedy in "Heritage" in loss of culture and dying villages. What sets it apart from "Cloud Fathers" is that Natsilane is able to come to terms with his identity and his heritage while Peter is too late to reconnect with his father even if he was able to reconcile with his heritage.

Subjective viewing is excellent when looking for new perspectives in arts, even if there isn't an agreement to be had.

Matt> [SPOILER] Glad I'm not the only one who got Smaug vibes from the dragon's emergence. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Jan 4, 2024 3:06:54 am EST from 64.85.245.77

“Heritage” is an episode that’s grown on me as I get older. I enjoy Natsilane’s conflict in wanting to move away from tradition into the modern world, and the tragedy of the dying village. Natsilane’s arc was ultimately sort of repeated later in “Cloud Fathers,” with a character we care more about (Peter), and a better written episode overall. “Heritage” is not the strongest episode, and was a pretty poor showing for the second stop in the World Tour (especially with “Monsters” immediately following it…no wonder people were down on the World Tour concept pretty quickly!). But I still kind of enjoy it, especially Elisa’s connection with Natsilane.

One thing I’ve always wondered: Why did they create a fictional Canadian island instead of just using a real location as Gargoyles usually did? I know it was the name of a street that Greg grew up on, but why didn’t they just use a real place? I guess maybe it would seem too negative to portray a real community as dying out (even if that were true)?
Craig
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 11:42:13 pm EST from 12.74.238.65

I like all the post-World Tour episodes pretty much. Vendettas is a bit soft, but it's fine. Turf I like quite a bit, and there's a lot of intricate layers that are all working together to keep the story moving. I think Brod is fun, and adds a new dynamic (he's got more personality than Dracon, who's just kind of a slime ball). There's actually a lot of comedy that works "that was my FAVOURITE restaurant!".

it's definitely a broad farce of sorts. Lots of hijinks, lots of comedy. I mean any episode with Jack Dane calling people "a bum" has gotta be a little funny. Which... honestly I really like, sometimes Gargoyles can get a little too self-serious. It's more of that Hill Street Blues influence I think. Big personalities popping off and doing funny things in very not funny situations.

Vendettas is a bit too goofy for me in contrast. It's less behavioural comedy (where the characters are acting crazy) and more like... even the situations are bizzare. A pie-launching bazooka, the Vinnie misdirect. So I don't like it as much, but as I say it's fine.

The only episodes I really, really dislike are Heritage and Monsters. Heritage is just kind of drab (especially the environment) and the conflict is sort of predictable and underwhelming, I don't think I really care about Nick or Grandmother that much. The fake Gargoyle clan is weird, and Raven is a very underwhelming villain. Kind of juvenile, instead of cruel or canniving.

Monsters also just doesn't really... go anywhere. This is the big Angela episode and it doesn't really tell us much about her. It seeds the Goliath-Angela stuff briefly and is obviously necessary for that, but everything about this episode is so saccharine. Sevarius is fun as a side villain and he's fun in this episode, but doesn't really carry the episode himself very well. It also has the problem a lot of world tour episodes have in that there's just not enough time to get us to care about what's going on. They're introducing a new setting, new cast members, new conflicts, and introducing them to Goliath, Angela and Elisa.

I think the World Tour episodes that work best are the ones that have something to ground them. Even stuff like Eye of the Storm and M.I.A. are follow ups to the Eye of Odin and Phoenix Gate stuff. Something that gets the heroes to immediately take notice, and get personally invested without just... "well we're heroes, so I guess we're helping out with this."


Dark Ages #5:

[SPOILER] The dragon makes me think of Berserk for some reason. Even for Gargoyles a massive dragon is a pretty other worldly thing.

I don't... honestly know what to say about this issue, I enjoyed reading it. It was a lot of set up. I didn't have hot Demona brother flexing his bicep (his only bicep at that) on my 2024 bingo card. We see the sort of parallel journeys of Coldfire and Demona continuing. That's fun, I'm still eager to see some real interaction between these two, either in this (which I don't think there's time for) or in Quest.

Demona reading the Frog and the Scorpion seems like dire foreshadowing, but of course as we know, Demona is really the one who ends up double-crossing the Archmage, not the other way around. [/SPOILER]

Yeah, it was good.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 11:25:18 pm EST from 70.48.45.192

Figured it out. Nabbed Dark Ages #5, will pick up #11 tomorrow.
Dark Ages #5 spoiler thoughts:
[SPOILER] It's really neat to see a dragon show up, and to learn that they're closely related to the gargoyles. As well as to get the visual of one bursting from stone, very neat. Though maybe this is something that got mentioned by Greg at some point. Either way I quite like it. Don't have too much else to add, excited to see how this comic run concludes. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 10:10:56 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

Kate > If you want to get the digital editions, they can be bought on Amazon.
Anonymous
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 10:02:21 pm EST from 12.74.238.65

Where should I grab the two new issues from? I wanna get Dark Ages #5 just in case it vanishes like #11 did.
Kate
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 8:20:44 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

Let me say this about #11: I am *very* happy that my comic shop confirmed yesterday that they have it in. (I'll probably be much happier once I actually have the time to go pick it up from them.) The drop of DA feels like teasing, though.

Matt: Hope your dog's okay. Reading back a few days, regarding "spacebar clicker," no, it is not just you. Heaven save us from the not-quite-bots.

I'm going to go to bat for "Protection," largely because the first two-thirds is the kind of Pick-A-Plot story that was endemic in kidvid at the time (hero "A" presents as corrupt for honest, but hidden reasons; hero "B" mistakenly interferes), and I *hated* it. Words cannot describe the heat of my passion against this plot, then and even, to some extent, now. So to have the episode start out that way, and be disappointed that it had fell into that sulfurous pit of boilerplate plots along with everything else on afternoon TV; but then have the main characters figure things out on their own, not be stupid, and even play along...well, basically, this is the episode where I fell in love with the series. (Also a sign I may have missed all of the first season on original broadcast, or else I might have got hooked in sooner, but I guess you take your hooks where you can.)

Rewatching it just now, I still think it's fine, and not one I would put near the bottom of my ranking of episodes. ("New Olympians," on the other hand...yeah, that one did feel at the time like a story told by a blunt instrument, and I know I did not care for that one.)
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
Definitely not a bot since '95
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 7:47:40 pm EST from 99.74.15.252

I'm kind of grateful that my dog decided to wake me up at 2am vomiting. After I dealt with that and crawled back into bed I decided to check my phone. Had an email that a new book was uploaded to Kindle. Given the timing I figured that it was just #11 coming through again. Out of curiosity, I decided to see if I'd have two copies of #11 downloaded. And then Dark Ages 5 caught my eye! What a shock! I read it a couple times and fell back asleep. Ironically given the title, when I woke up a couple hours later, I thought I must've dreamt the whole thing, but nope! It was real.

As usual, here are my thoughts on Dark Ages 5 without having discussed it (much) with anyone else:

[SPOILER] - I didn't know what to make of the opening quote. But after reading the story and finding out who said it and what they were talking about, it was pretty darn exciting.

-Malcolm and Mentor seem to be getting along great and having a good time leading their peoples in the endeaver to build Castle Wyvern. I wonder about the span of time here. Is construction happening over days? Weeks? Months? Obviously, the Castle was complete by 974, but I don't think it is taking anywhere near that long. We see some familiar faces working together. Second, Othello, Hyppolyta, and Goliath. I love the Captain here. He continues to fit in more with the gargoyles than with his own people. He's excited about the alliance and humans and gargoyles working together. And Goliath remarks that this is his dream as well which echos nicely into where we stands in the flagship comic. Love it.

- Meanwhile, Lefty tends to the Trio as best he can. Lexington gets a lot of character building in this one. We learn later that he already knows how to read and understands the function and efficiency of the human construction tools. I love that he is so ready for the clan to adopt human ways and technology. It plays nicely into his future and he really is coming across as a bit of a genius here considering his age and the world he's growing up in. Meanwhile, his brothers are just being kids much to Brother Valdez's consternation! I love that Lefty naturally protects Valdez from debris.

- The Trio joins up with Antiope and Alesand and take her flying. Fulfilling the latter's dream as best they could. Something about this reminds me of Elisa and Goliath touring the city for the first time in Awakening Part 3. Instead of NYC though, Alesand is treated to all the sights of Wyvern. And they come to the Archmage's Cave (though at this point it may need a new name!). In they go without a care. And they stand and look at the same archway that the World Tour travelers will look at 1025 years later. We see them in some familiar areas from not only "Shadows of the Past", but "Long Way to Morning" as well. Really cool.

- The five youngsters arrive at the Megalith Dance. The future relevance of this place to Alesand's father is very poignant to me. This is how a prequel should be. Stuff like this that is so subtle as to be almost irrelevant. At least that's how I feel it. The bigger point of interest here though is Antiope. She seems to sense this place in a way the others don't she holds back and stares in silence until she gasps in realization: it's a ghost cage! How she knows this is baffling, but Antiope suddenly got a lot more interesting to be sure.

- The "rooklings" (love that term) move on and discover a golden hoard topped with a massive stone dragon. We've seen a stone dragon before, but I think we all know that this thing is different. Again, Antiope senses that Alesand needs to hide immediately. Meanwhile, the gargoyles are in awe, but don't seem to be afraid. I find that fascinating. I don't know if there is enough cultural relevance ("By The Dragon!") to understand that they have little to fear or perhaps they feel a natural kinship or perhaps they are just braver than I would be in this situation, but they stand and watch the dragon awake from stone! This dragon is absolutely remarkable on many fronts. First, it is made fairly clear that this dragon is a new species of gargate, or should I say "Stone-flesh". Apparently one that sleeps as stone, but not tied to the rise and fall of the sun. And it's eyes glow, but not fully as a beast does or intermittently as a gargoyle does. I love that the dragon calls the gargoyles "my clan" and "little cousins". The dragon brought the ancestors of the gargoyles to Wyvern Hill as protectors of itself and its treasure. From where is unclear, but I have a big guess. I've talked before about how I've long suspected that Scottish gargoyles are descended from Atlantean ones and that their closest relatives might be the Mayan Clan (as opposed to the far closer London Clan). So, maybe this is a small piece of evidence to support that theory. As for the dragon itself, I have long been curious as to what a flesh and bone dragon in the Gargoyles Universe would be. My musings were that they could be natural animals of spectacular nature (like the Loch Ness Monsters), they could be associated or akin to the Third Race or New Olympians, or they could have something to do with the mysterious Lost Race. So, being gargates was quite a surprise but I LOVE it. It really works and adds so much to the history of the Wyvern and the Wyvern Clan. Awesome, amazing stuff. Also, if the chance ever comes to do Alliance as a Radio Play, I really want to play this dragon. I'm not sure where the voice for it came from, but I love the voice I hear when I read its dialogue. With some ill-advised reveals from the Trio, the dragon charges off towards Wyvern Hill. This reminds me a lot of Smaug descending upon Laketown in The Hobbit. Scary stuff. I also like that we can see Wyvern Hill from the Archmage's Cave, with enough height at least. I like that its clear they are relatively close to each other.

- Meanwhile, back at the Castle-to-be, the humans and gargoyles are going about their business. Malcolm, Mentor and Valdez watch as Chomp and Chaw drag more materials. Nicholas chats about wanting to become an actor. Desdemona continues her training under Sacrifice. And Demona is getting fairly good at reading under the Archmage's tutelage. Particularly notable in these last three frames is who is watching on. Mary is observing Nicholas. Perhaps developing a crush on he who would be Tom's father? Magus is watching Demona and Archmage. Already expressing an interest in magic himself? Does this mean he was aware that Demona learned magic? And then the oddest spy of all: Schnozz watching Desdemona and Sacrifice. I have no idea of the significance there, but since I'm a fan of this undeveloped little gargoyle I'm very curious. All parties suddenly become aware that something is coming: Valdez excuses himself. The Light Bringers draw swords, Desdemona senses something very old, and Archmage just sees an opportunity. He (presumably) sends Demona into the now unoccupied cave. On what purpose we can only guess...

- The text story isn't too remarkable for those of us who've been around a while. And not much revealed otherwise, so I don't have much to add about it. Well told though!

- And thats where Greg leaves us. Quite the cliffhanger. So much new stuff, but so many new mysteries. This was a great chapter. I'll give it some time before I call it my favorite chapter of the Dynamite era, but it has to be up there. I can't wait to see how this turns out! [/SPOILER]

That's my thoughts. Looking forward to seeing yours, even if it takes a few weeks. As I've mentioned, I'll probably repost this review when the chapter is officially released. Grateful for this early peek!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 6:12:31 pm EST from 47.233.90.133

Just some quick thoughts on Dark Ages #5.

[SPOILER] Well it took a little longer than expected but we finally got the promised dragon! And it's a proper six-limbed dragon rather than the previously speculated four-limbed wyvern. Interesting choice considering this dragon was the one to found the the Wyvern Clan.

Actually this has been a great issue for lore building, getting some notion on how dragons work and their relationship with gargoyles. Before the reveal I always pictured dragons being intelligent but speaking in a language no other race could translate, something to set them apart from humans, gargoyles or the Third Race. But no, this beastie can properly communicate with the others. And more than that, its stone sleep marks it as a relative to gargoyles.

The origins of this are fascinating as well. It brought the gargoyles to Wyvern Hill in order to guard its hoard (like and good dragon has) and itself during its rest. This is just an early take, but I have the feeling that unlike other human/gargoyle relationships, this dynamic was never meant to built on equality. Humans were meant to guard the gargoyles during the day and the gargoyles guard them in the night, a pact of mutual protection. But I have the feeling that the dragon expected the gargoyles to serve almost like a lord would expect service from vassals. Close in kinship yes, for mutual protection perhaps, but still not as equals.

And with the knowledge of the local human/gargoyle alliance, the dragon decides to break free and presumably go all Smaug on anyone unfortunate enough to get in its way. I have the bad feeling that this will be the catalyst for what will eventually breakdown relationships between the two peoples. Whether it's because the quartet unintentionally woke it up, whether some people will be killed in the attack or something else. A disaster like this just doesn't get swept under the rug.

Finally I'd like to talk briefly on the Megalith Dance, which Antiope identifies as a Ghost-Cage. How she knows what it is a mystery and I'm glad we still have some unanswered questions about it, the cave carvings and that area in general and the Archmage's plans. I find it kind of funny that the World Tour gang would be involved in a horrifying, supernatural mystery ages later and yet here in the past the kids would know about its mysteries because they stumbled across them during an impromptu flight. [/SPOILER]

Well that's all for now, I'll probably revisit it later with some more thoughts. But until then, can't wait for #6!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 3:57:10 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Geez, what the heck is happening with these releases? Chaos! Guided View appears not to be enabled on Dark Ages #5, unless it's just my devices? Which makes me think this was another mistaken release that may disappear soon... Oh, and the coloring errors I mentioned in Gargoyles #11 appear to still be uncorrected, at least in the digital version, so I guess that wasn't the reason for the delay.

Dark Ages #5 thoughts...

[SPOILER]
"The Dream." But not the "Dream" storyline Greg had envisioned for the SLG miniseries, apparently...I wonder if that story will be retitled if/when we ever see it.

This is the first issue to bear a whole bunch of "special thanks" notices on the inside cover. All these people appear to be Disney marketing folks.

Love the rapport between Malcolm and Mentor on the opening page. And we get to see the beginnings of the bond between Goliath and Robert as well.

I like the moment on page 4 where Lefty is making a muscle, and instinctively raises his right arm as if to feel the muscle. A typical pose that of course he can no longer make, but it's still an ingrained motion.

Since the TV series never got the chance to show Lexington being fascinated with a catapult, it's nice to finally get some scenes of Lex admiring Middle Ages technology.

Love the way Drew Moss draws the Scottish landscape. Although it would have been nice to get a glimpse of Alesand's village when she mentions it.

I like Antiope being the initial instigator to go into the cave. I'm continuing to get a sense of her as being even more adventurous than our Trio (while at the same being also a little smarter, or at least more mature, than they are at this stage).

Unlike last issue's depiction of the Rookery entrance, which is markedly different from the show (the door is a different shape, etc.), Moss's drawings of the cave complex are very faithful to the show, even displaying the exact same petroglyphs we saw in "Long Way to Morning" and "Shadows of the Past."

I love that we get to see the moment when Lex agrees to teach Alesand to read. I still wonder how she was so knowledgeable of historical and mythological figures like Antiope, Charlemagne, etc. I also love Broadway's casual dismissal of literacy, which has a certain wrong-headed logic to it.

Love getting to see that whole cave complex again. So many questions. Was that weird demon-shaped sub-cave that the Archmage uses in "Long Way to Morning" modeled on the dragon, or is it something else?

Antiope seems to have more knowledge than one would expect from one so young (and certainly far more than is known by her rookery siblings...or even by Goliath when he visits the Megalith Dance a millennium later). How does she know it's a "ghost cage"? How does she know the dragon will want to attack Alesand but not the gargoyles? Does she have some sort of spiritual/supernatural abilities that allow her to realize these things? Or has she had some sort of teaching/training in these matters? If so, from whom? There's more to this girl than meets the eye...

Hmmm. So the dragon sleeps in stone and is an ancestor of the gargoyles (a "cousin," specifically). Very unexpected, but makes perfect sense. Even more unexpected is that he apparently founded the clan! I wonder what causes the dragon to awaken in that moment...is it just the proximity of the gargoyles? Would it similarly awaken if only humans approached? Or did he awaken precisely because humans were nearby (he mentioned being restless the past few weeks)?

So we learn that Nicolas apparently has aspirations to be an actor. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would even cross the mind of a child of his station. I imagine that this passion for treading the proverbial boards was probably born over the past few nights of watching the Players, and not something he had thought of before. I wonder if this bodes for young Nicolas becoming a part of the Illuminati. Is there any character in existing continuity (or in history/mythology) that he could be related to? My first wacky thought was of St. Nicholas, since we know Greg has plans for Santa Claus to be real...the idea of Old Saint Nick as a member of the Illuminati just tickles my fancy. But historically, St. Nicholas lived in the third and fourth centuries, so that seems unlikely. (Also, I'm not sure if it's significant, but Fleur looks oddly sad in that panel, whereas she was all smiles in the prior issue.)

On page 12, we see Mary spying on Nicolas's conversation with the players, a small gargoyle (presumably the guy some identified as "Schnozz" last issue) spying on Desdemona and Sacrifice, and Li'l Magus (real name as yet unknown) spying on Archmage and Demona. This latter of course makes complete sense and is cool to see, but I'm not entirely sure what to make of the other two.

The appearance of "The Scorpion and the Frog," or some variant, is an apparent anachronism, as the tale seems to have first appeared in the 1930s. However, per Wikipedia, there is a very similar tale with a scorpion and a turtle (where the turtle of course survives due to its shell) dating back to 15th century Persia, so it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that various versions of this tale were passed down orally over the centuries and could have existed in a tenth century text that has since been lost.

Similarly, Demona struggling with the word "knew" is a bit of dramatic license, since she would have presumably been reading Scottish Gaelic. I'd guess the word would have been "kenned" or somesuch?

The dragon awakening is very cool. Nice twist on something we're used to, on a much much larger scale. Love the shards of stone raining down on the kids.

Valdez is attuned to the dragon's awakening apparently, confirming what all of probably suspect, that he's more than an architecturally-minded man of the cloth (especially given who else senses it at the same time...). Interesting that Desdemona senses the dragon, but Sacrifice seemingly doesn't despite having much more spiritual training?

Love the Archmage's "problem and an opportunity" line.

I like the dragon's distinctive green lettering, making him more "other."

The bottom of page 15 is one of my pet peeves about comic books: characters saying way more in a moment than they realistically could/would. Brooklyn and especially Antiope's dialogue, even if it overlaps, is WAY too much chatter before the dragon responds with his "WHAT?!" On the other hand, I did like Brooklyn's later, "Don't yell! Run!"

And we get a Willy Wonka reference!

Next issue's title is yet another variation on "The Oath" and "The Promise": "The Pledge." I'm not sure how I feel about all these very-similar titles.

We learn that the Players' "Italian Tragedy" was indeed Othello, or an earlier incarnation. Shakespeare borrowed the plot of Othello from an Italian text that was no more than a few decades old at the time the Bard adapted it to stage...I'm not aware of any earlier precedent for the story. Although it's not impossible that the Italian author was basing his writing off an earlier oral tradition or now-lost text, there's no surviving evidence for that. Likewise, Shakespeare appears to have invented the "Iago" name, which is not in the original Italian text, so the use of the "Iagolino" name here is purely fanciful.

All the covers look great as usual, but I'm really digging these Kenya Danino covers with the dragon, last issue and now this issue. The Drew Moss one is great too (it appears to show Hudson holding little Alesand's hand confronting the dragon...I wonder if we'll see that next issue).
[/SPOILER]

All said, another great issue. I do hope this release schedule gets sorted out, if only because the erratic and unexpected nature of these releases is making the comment room very difficult to navigate!
Craig
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 2:54:49 pm EST from 209.140.48.0

This is a repost of my early thoughts on #11 when it was released early since it is now officially out.

[SPOILER] - Gnash is our narrator! He's having a good few months. This only adds a bit to his characterization, but I'll take it. I love the idea of hearing about the Trio his whole life. It says a lot about Brooklyn really. Even though the Trio was breaking apart before Brook even left on his journey, he holds on to that bond fondly. I'm sure it must've been weird for Gnash to join the clan and meet these uncles. And yet, he suggests that they didn't live up to the hype. Where is the Trio he heard about? Fun stuff. That said, the Trio is back here, but I'm not sure all the issues were fully explored (yet). I liked Todd's idea of them verbally working things during the battle. That didn't happen, which is a shame, and I still feel theres a lot that needs to be said. But at least they're all getting along and working together again.

-The title is interesting. "Young at Heart". I'm going to have to think of the significance of that. And the first letter thing is just baffling to me: AIMTRUEMYNY.... Could we finish with NYC? I dunno. Maybe we are looking at all of this wrong. No idea.

- The phone call page has a lot going. Good stuff, but I wish it was more clear visually who was talking to whom. At first I thought it was all one big conference call. Then I was thinking, oh, there must be two calls happening. Then I thought, there are three. And I'm still a little confused, but it seems we have the heads of the families (minus Dino) on one call, Dino and Glasses on another. Tony and Toni on another, and finally Toni and the gargoyles on a fourth call? Yeesh. Anyway, looks like Slaughter has gotten everyone together to chat, which is great, though I'm amazed he got everyone to talk civilly. Guess when a greater threat presents itself, cooler heads prevail. Still gotta wonder how Choi and Hurracan can be on a call together and not bring up their kids! And Antoinette is turning out to be quite the traitor to the family. Hope Dino never finds out what she's been up to... And I love Dino's line about "cracks are showing". The phrase feels more poignant when the gargoyles are your enemy!

- The Trio (and Gnash) take Toni's call. Sounds like Dino is planning to do more than just hurt the teenagers! They've gotta weigh their options. Is it a trap? But in the end, of course they have to check it out. Should they wait for Goliath? No time. Brooklyn takes charge without feeling overwhelmed as he was before. "This is gonna be fun!" Yup. Nothing says fun like stopping crime bosses from murdering teenagers. Kids. Yeesh. Their approach is very reminiscient of "Upgrade". The Trio scopes it out, makes a plan under Brooklyn's leadership and then takes down a powerful enemy with teamwork. I LOVE the shot of the gargoyles up in the dark rafters. Such a traditional image of gargoyle protectors looking down fromthe darkness above. Really really love it. Then the plan: the Trio takes out the "trio" and Gnash frees the captives. Seems easy enough, but Dino is ready for them with a bunch of exo-framed backup! These things look tough, almost like the one Demona stole from Golden Cup in "The Reckoning". I'm guessing that is where Brooklyn has faced these before. The gargoyle faces threw me for a bit. At first I thought they were screen projections of Goliath, Bronx, Angela, and Hudson. But now I'm thinking the people inside the exo-frames are wearing masks in their image instead. Gotta wonder where Dino is getting these fairly accurate masks (even if they are out of date with Brooklyn!). And speaking of Dino, he is revealed as the Brook-mask wearer indeed. I wasn't sure this was the case at first, but became more convinced as the issues were released and more evidence (like Glasses' dented car) was revealed. Still, I couldn't help but wonder if we were in for another surprise, but no. The mask wearers are just who was suspected. The exo-frames are taken down with some clever thinking and a powerful blaster circa 2198. The gargoyles get out of there with Pete and Rosie (who are loving this!). I'm surprised they just left Dino to his own devices like that. Typically, they'd tie up the bad guys and give Elisa a call. Guess she's busy right now. The Trio is back (or at least has taken some big steps towards their old camaraderie). I love hearing Brooklyn call the others his brothers. We never got enough of that aspect of their relationship in the tv episodes, and I'm glad we are getting more now.

- Meanwhile, the expected meeting between Chavez, Maza, and Bluestone. Glad the Captain isn't just waving this off. Certainly I don't want the worst for Elisa (being fired), but actions have consequences. Elisa doesn't have much of a defense. Glad she offers an explanation without trying to make an excuse. I presume it is the same explanation she told Matt. As for him, he's got a solution to help the Captain (and thus the NYPD and the City) save some face. That could be anything, but I kind of hope it means that they offer to add an actual gargoyle to the GTF (Broadway most likely). Way to strike while the iron is hot, make a nice PR move, and show the public that the NYPD is indeed working with the gargoyles. We will see.

- Meanwhile also, the Renard family has gathered for the last moments of their patriarch. Oh, and Xanatos and Owen are there too. The feelings between Xanatos and Renard have to be interesting here. Obviously, they are economic rivals, and have a personal connection on top of that, but just the feeling in that room... Renard might not want to appear weak next to Xanatos, and on the surface, he is. But Renard is also gracefully embracing something that terrifies Xanatos: death. And with that, he's winning. We lay out the plan for Cyberbiotics. Vogel will run it, Alex and Fox have equal large shares, but Goliath is also given 2%! As Xanatos points out, that makes him a potential tie breaking vote should Alex and Fox ever disagree down the road. Lots of potential for stories there, but probably not for a long while. It also makes Goliath fairly wealthy. Very interesting. Renard says his goodbyes which are very sweet. Alex's "Papa" and Anastasia's final words are particularly sad. And Renard passes. Kind of bizarre to have a recurring character die even though we've known it was coming for decades. It just feels like Gargoyles is growing up. Part of growing up, I've learned, is that new generations start piling up behind you (Michael Maza, Gnash, Egwardo) and the older generations (Renard, Verity...) start to disappear. Bittersweet. But the best stories to me are not the ones that end with "happily ever after", but rather the ones where characters enter the story and eventually leave it. That's how life is. Never The End!

- That said, the end for Here in Manhattan at least is coming up quick! Gotta wrap up this Dino drama and get a gargoyle Commitment Ceremony done! Lovely way to tie up this arc and I'm really looking forward to it! [/SPOILER]

I plan to get my thoughts on Dark Ages 5 together soon. I may end up posting them here (and then reposting them again in three weeks!) Crazy times!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 2:19:28 pm EST from 204.184.178.1

Just FYI folks: Dark Ages 5 dropped digitally today. I know some of us have already read it. Very excited to share my thoughts and obviously anyone who does should make sure they put up Spoiler tags.

Also, Bishansky, Phoenician and I are going to refrain from making related edits on the GargWiki until the official due date to avoid any spoilers. We ask that anyone else who does editing do the same.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 10:35:19 am EST from 204.184.178.1

JURGAN - [ That said, I always think it’s important for any superhero show to have at least some stories where they fight the sort of “normal crime” that would go on even if they weren’t there.]

Good point.

I realized after my post last night that I'd forgotten to include "Vendettas". I still think that Hakon's return felt antlclimactic here, because where his original return in "Shadows of the Past" involved an effective striking at Goliath through his troubled memories of the Wyvern Massacre, here it was just a big fight between Goliath and Hudson on one side, Hakon and Wolf on the other. (One part of it does still make me smile - where Wolf's boasting about how he's going to take down the gargoyles, and then they knock him out with just one punch. There's something comical about a guy intending an epic battle getting defeated that quickly.)

I remember thinking, the first time I saw this episode, that the guy on the motorcycle in "Awakening Part Three", the Cyberbiotics security guard in "Awakening Part Four", and the security guard at Gen-U-Tech in "The Cage" all being the same person felt a bit far-fetched, but I still found Vinnie's narration of his past encounters with the gargoyles, and what we saw on the screen clearly not matching what he was saying, very funny. (And Vinnie remains the only person in "Gargoyles" who got a successful revenge on Goliath - well, if you overlook things like an unintended ride in a garbage truck - and with only a banana cream pie.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 8:05:59 am EST from 174.72.60.154

My main problem with “Protection” is that it’s an Idiot Plot- everyone makes a lot of really stupid mistakes because if they didn’t the plot wouldn’t work. In particular, Chavez goes out of her way to lure Dracon into trying to kill her and then is completely unprepared when Joey does so. That said, I always think it’s important for any superhero show to have at least some stories where they fight the sort of “normal crime” that would go on even if they weren’t there.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Wed, Jan 3, 2024 12:23:54 am EST from 174.195.86.114

In the comments on "Monsters" - it should have been "saccharine", not "sanguine". (I may need to rewatch "Gargoyles", for a refresher course.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 7:22:51 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

A few thoughts on the "weaker episodes" being discussed here this week.

PROTECTION: While it does feel "routine crime-stoppers", it had its moments. I still really like Goliath's absolute disgust at extortion rackets being called "protection"; that'd definitely seem like blasphemy to him. And the bit about Tony Dracon picking up on Goliath and Elisa's feelings for each other - "So she's your woman?" - and patting him on the shoulder, then stepping back in a hurry when Goliath growls at him.

MONSTERS: I agree that it's not one of the more memorable episodes, particularly animation-wise. But I did like the premise from the start. The gargoyles are Scottish "monsters", so it felt appropriate to have them meet the most famous monster in Scotland. And we get some fun Sevarius moments - such as when he grumbles that if Angela making friends with Nessie gets any more sanguine, he's sticking his finger down his throat.

THE NEW OLYMPIANS: The premise of the descendants of beings from Greek mythology living in a remote island somewhere appealed to me, also. I've wondered, however, about a possible drawback with it; bringing in a second intelligent non-human people who were persecuted by humans, were forced into hiding, but left their mark in myth and legend does seem duplication (though the New Olympians are given enough differences from gargoyles to make the idea work).

TURF: The trio really come across like a gargoyle version of the Three Stooges in this one. (Not that it was the first time; the kitchen scene in "Awakening Part Three" does the same. I remember Matthew, in a review of that episode, captioning a picture of Lexington half-buried in the cookery "Why I oughta....") Of course, given that it's the first time they've been around a female gargoyle (apart from Demona, who's definitely out of the question) since the Wyvern Massacre, as Elisa points out, it made sense - and Angela did get through to them.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 7:12:02 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

Jurgan > I'd put "New Olympians" and "Protection" in my bottom five along with the two I already mentioned (I'm honestly not sure what the fifth would be...). "New Olympians" seems very surface-level and is trying to clumsily make a point that the series has already made far more elegantly many times. The role-reversal with the human being the "monster" is cute, but it doesn't really mean much thematically, since Elisa is already extremely enlightened (and I'm sure has faced her fair share of bigotry already as a woman of color). So having the roles flipped doesn't really do anything to teach her a lesson, or to make any broader point. But this is another one where great voice performances really heighten the episode, with the wonderful and much-missed Roddy McDowall as the perfect Proteus, and then the various other actors getting to play Proteus poorly impersonating their regular characters. Really fun stuff.

As to "Protection"...I guess the mob-centric episodes really aren't that interesting to me except when there's something else big going on (Illuminati-adjacent cool noir-ish 1920s backstory in "Silver Falcon," obviously the amazingness of "Deadly Force"'s gun plot). I think part of that is that Dracon and the other mob characters pale in comparison to the series' more complex villains. But it also probably has something to do with the limitations of children's television: you can't really show the ACTUAL danger that these gangs inflict upon the public with drugs, human trafficking, drive-by shootings, etc., or explore the deeper sociological implications. We got a bit of this with the gun trafficking in "Deadly Force," but after that, the writers/producers were forced to focus on stuff like chop shops, which I don't find make for particularly compelling high-stakes storytelling.

But "Protection" is an episode has has grown on me over the years, even if it's still in my bottom five. I like it much better than "Turf." For one thing, the idea of protection rackets is a compelling theme to present, especially in light of the gargoyles' creed. It was certainly the first time I'd heard of such a thing as an eleven-year-old, so there was an educational element to the episode as well. And beyond that, it's just a FUN episode. Seeing a different side of Elisa, Goliath awkwardly trying to act like an evil badass, all the jalapena stuff, etc.

I did rewatch "Turf" last night, due to the discussion here. I still wasn't overly impressed by it, but it reminded me that there's no such thing as a bad Gargoyles episode. Even my least favorite has things to recommend it, and Angela's arc is really impressive. It beautifully conveys the awkwardness of a young woman who doesn't feel comfortable speaking out, who just takes abuse because she doesn't want to make waves, and then finally taking control of the situation. I love the little "big sister" moment where Elisa gives her very direct non-sugar-coated advice/encouragement, basically telling her "You're a big girl and you've got this, nobody's going to take care of it for you" (I'm obviously paraphrasing liberally, but that was my takeaway).

One weird/interesting moment I noticed during the "walla" noises when the Trio are fighting. Brooklyn (possibly an improvisation by Jeff Bennett?) says, "I'm in control!" Goliath is absent at this point, and I feel like this must be a reference to Secretary of State Al Haig's infamous speech immediately after the attempted assassination of Reagan, when Haig told the press, "I'm in control here."

I also love the bizarre moment where Brod tells Glasses that he's going to assassinate Dracon, and Glasses shrugs, says "Whatever," and then nonchalantly dives off a moving train! I guess they just wanted to get him out of the scene quickly since he'd served his purpose, but the abruptness of the whole exchange makes me laugh.

I still hate the ending, where they place Dracon in the same cell as the man who JUST broke into prison to try to murder him! I have no idea what point the show was trying to make. Was it supposed to be funny? Ironic? It's just so unrealistic and silly, feels like something that would maybe happen at the end of a Darkwing Duck episode or something, and makes the prison guards look corrupt and sadistic.

Anyway, I look forward to Todd and others who haven't yet seen #11 getting their hands on the issues this week and sharing their thoughts!
Craig
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 4:47:19 pm EST from 24.46.160.51

Greg, I agree with your “robot viewer” idea. TBC, I don’t think Brooklyn is poorly written in Turf. It’s more like: if he were a real person I’d say “Brooklyn, I’m disappointed in you, you should know better.” As a fictional character, though, it would be boring if he never made mistakes. I think the biggest difference between Angela and Maggie is the competition angle. Brooklyn was the only one who was interested in Maggie, and had he been the only one interested in Angela he probably would’ve been a lot more chill about it. But the very first thing that happens when they meet her is Broadway turns on the charm and gives her a gift. Brooklyn can see the attraction and figures “if I don’t go for it now I’ll miss my shot,” which causes him to be overly aggressive. And Lex obviously isn’t attracted to her physically, but he still wants to be seen as impressive (he might have a bit of an inferiority complex due to being the smallest, but I can’t think of much canonica evidence for that).

Anyway, Turf is a C-tier episode for me. Compared to the other Dracon episodes it’s weaker than the first two but better than Protection. Vendettas is by far my least favorite, and Monsters is pretty shallow (ironically given it’s set on a very few lake), but it’s saved by Curry’s performance. I’d also put New Olympians pretty low- it’s a big idea that didn’t have room to breathe, so to get through it in 20 minutes all the characters were stereotypes except maybe Taurus.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 10:37:13 am EST from 174.240.18.54

Turf wouldn't make my Top Ten or Twenty either, but I like it. For many of the reasons that have been mentioned. Particularly how Angela handles the Trio... and the audience as Matt pointed out.

Let's look at the differences between the Maggie and Angela situations. Maggie couldn't have been clearer from Moment One that she wasn't interested... at first she was terrified of them, of him. It doesn't matter whether she was involved with Talon or not, she wasn't interested in him.

Angela... hadn't communicated that yet. Now, should he have read her better? Probably. Definitely. Ironically, Broadway was the one who was reading her better. But mature second-in-command or not, he was still a teen. A horny one. And this was an area he still where he still had some growing up to do. Or a lot of growing up to do. Now, at the beginning of the third act, Angela communicated things LOUD AND CLEAR. And I am glad she did... it was realistic for the trio (all three of them) to behave like knuckleheads in this situation... but I am glad Angela asserted herself on them. Their behavior was not okay, but just because it wasn't okay doesn't make it bad writing.

But one of the things that I do need to point out, the people who complain about Brooklyn's behavior in that post-Kingdom. Well... I find his behavior consistent, but... well, some audience members who go on about this, I refer to this as the "robot response". i.e. there are people I have noticed who expect fictional characters to operate under a series of pre-programmed responses. People always say how they love realistic multi-dimensional characters, but a shitstorm ensues the moment those characters actually display their complexity and act like real people in specific situations. Whether it's breaking their vows, changing their minds, showing insecurity, acting irrationally, doing something they have never thought they would, or being hypocrites... every time a character deviates from some one dimensional pattern, people complain about how they're not consistent because thirty-seven episodes ago they said or did something differently. Characters that have actual depth do not conform to predefined behavior patterns. That's where character complexity comes from. People are not supposed to be consistent.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 9:38:08 am EST from 67.189.167.107

"Monsters" and "Vendettas" pretty low tier for me (though there is good stuff in there for sure), but I find "Turf" to be really good. Probably not in my Top Ten, but it's up there somewhere. Ever since we knew Angela would be joining the Manhattan Clan, I was anxious for her to meet the Trio and one of them to be her mate and I don't think I was alone. Angela's frustration with, and ultimately her putting them in their place always felt like she was talking to the audience. Telling everybody to chill out. It'll happen when/if it happens. The funny thing is that it took a relatively short time in universe for Angela to choose a mate. Less than a year. Out of universe, it took decades, so the audience had it rougher than the Trio. Ha. I also really enjoyed all the references to prior episodes in this one, particularly: "I thought you flew a helicopter once!" "Yeah, well first I sorta crashed it..." Angela and Lexington are great together. I love their attack on and in the hovercraft. Awesome stuff. Anyway, I like this one a lot.

Anyone else read my last post, then read the post made by "spacebar clicker" and note the similarities? Is it just me?
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 8:34:46 am EST from 204.184.178.1

2023 wasn't too bad a year for me, got truly sucked into a book series whose genres I was never that into (mystery and western). I got to experience the best Disney series in a long while in The Owl House. Got to watch the best Superman-related property in a long while. And of course we've had a really engaging run in Gargoyles.

And that's not discounting the great conversations we've had last year.

Can't wait to see what comes next in 2024!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Jan 2, 2024 4:16:43 am EST from 64.85.245.77

Jurgan > Good analysis. By definition, SOME episode has to be ranked last in any list. For me, "Turf" and "Monsters" are probably the bottom two (I'm sure many people rank "Vendettas" last, but I've always kinda liked that one). I'd probably give "Monsters" the slight edge on "Turf" since Sevarius/Tim Curry is so fun. But Angela asserting herself and finding her voice near the end of "Turf" is a great moment in her evolution, and the highlight of the episode.

It does feel like there was a weird trend in 1990s cartoons and sitcoms where all the male characters would arbitrarily become EXTREMELY sexist for one episode, to an out of character degree, just to make a "feminist" point in the ending when the guys realize the error of their ways. It always came off as very forced. I remember a couple of TaleSpin episodes that were guilty of this, where Baloo and Kit would be mocking Rebecca and Molly (way more than usual, and pointedly about gender stereotypes), only to of course receive their comeuppance eventually. Another trope on 1990s cartoons was the episode where the dudes would meet a female character and suddenly become VERY, uh, hormonal and competitive which each other. "Turf" feels a bit like the Gargoyles version of this, but it feels more natural since Angela IS the only prospective female mate, and there is a sort of existential desperation underlying the Trio's attempts to impose themselves on her. Plus, as you say, their rivalry was always there (although not usually presented as quite this immature or pathetic).
Craig
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 9:40:33 pm EST from 24.46.162.94

appy New Year! It sounds like 2023 has been an exciting year for Gargoyles enthusiasts, with the anticipation of completing "Here In Manhattan" and "Quest and Alliance" and the upcoming releases of "Convergence" and "Voices." The promise of new stories and figures from NECA adds to the excitement. Wishing you and all Gargoyles fans a fantastic year ahead filled with more thrilling adventures and surprises in the Gargoyles universe!
spacebar clicker - [chnesswail at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 9:37:53 pm EST from 156.146.47.238

JURGAN - I hadn't thought of that approach to "Turf" before, but it's a good one indeed; thanks for sharing it.

I discovered that I miswrote Sara Coleridge's January rhyme this morning; I tried writing it from memory, which I recognize now was a mistake. It actually runs:

January brings the snow,
Makes our feet and fingers glow.

And, yes, I'm also looking forward to what 2024 has in store for "Gargoyles".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 7:24:17 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

Had some thoughts rewatching "Turf" the other day. This is not a particularly well-loved episode, in fact I've heard some say it's their least favorite of the series. I don't think it's that bad, but I can see why. The comedy is a bunch of trite jokes about horny guys not respecting women. The trio are not their normal likeable selves- in particular, Brooklyn abusing his authority to be closer to Angela doesn't seem like the maturing leader who, in "Kingdom," put aside his lust for Maggie to do the right thing. On the other hand, the trio have had a competitive streak at least since "Her Brother's Keeper." Brooklyn and Broadway were both attracted to her right away and let it bring out their worse selves, and Lexington went along for the ride because that's just their dynamic.

What made me appreciate the episode more was how it was a sort of meta-commentary on gender roles in kids' fiction at the time. There were a ton of 80's and 90's cartoons where the male characters were constantly harassing the sole woman in the group. (The parody cartoon "Saturday Morning Watchmen" mocked that with the Comedian begging Silk Spectre for a kiss, which is a very dark joke if you've read Watchmen.) Gargoyles could easily have spun the new dynamic into "the guys are always hitting on an eternally exasperated Angela," and that could have been dragged out for the rest of the series. Instead, they get the whole thing out of the way in one episode. It's still not fun to watch the trio behave so awfully, but they make it into a learning experience. Angela learns to put her foot down and set clear boundaries, while the boys learn not to be so immature. This sets a good example for both boys and girls watching. It also serves as a commentary on other media of the time- the casual sexism that's so prevalent is not okay, and our show isn't going to wallow in those cliches. It's a lesson even a lot of adult sitcoms like Big Bang Theory could do to learn.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 5:43:33 pm EST from 73.98.83.6

Happy new year to everybody here. This year is going to be fantastic.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 11:41:59 am EST from 99.74.15.252

Happy New Year indeed!

Yes, 2023 was unbelievably awesome for Gargoyles. Really looking forward to another great year for this universe. By this time next year, we will have finished Here In Manhattan and Quest and Alliance, I assume and who knows what else we'll be enjoying?! Among all the new stories we'll have Convergence and Voices to look forward to. And who knows what new figures NECA will announce and/or release and what other surprises are in store. I'm thrilled.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 10:34:45 am EST from 47.233.90.133

Happy New Year, everyone!

January brings the snow
Makes our toes and fingers glow.

(From "The Garden Year" by Sara Coleridge, daughter of Samuel Taylor Coleridge of "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" and "Kublai Khan" fame)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 7:47:07 am EST from 174.72.60.154

By the Dragon, this 30th anniversary year is going to be unforgettable!
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 2:44:12 am EST from 24.180.28.16

First of the year! Closing out the best year for Gargoyles since 1996, here's to another good one!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, Jan 1, 2024 12:00:56 am EST from 73.98.83.6