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Gargoyles

The Phoenix Gate

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Comments for the week ending July 16, 2007

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Check these out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A53kExxJsj8&mode=related&search=XD
Demon@

On SLG's website:
September 2007
Gargoyles #6

Right on schedule! I wonder if Bad Guys #1 is still slated for October.

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

It should also have been obvious Demona staged her capture by the way she was releasing robotic mosquitoes to steal their DNA.

PATRICK> Demona spoke with the phoniest French accent I have ever heard. Love really does make one stupid if Macbeth fell for that charade.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

What do you wanna bet that if Greg never got all these annoying junk questions, he'd be twice as likely to answer any given real question?


Anyway I found answers for some of them:


emma writes...
will the show come back with new episodes
A: There are no current plans for a fourth (or even a real third) season of the series on television, but you can look to the comics to continue the series, picking up right where Hunter's Moon left off.

Pat Hatt writes...
With all the direct to dvd movies now a days and the pile of crap Disney puts out direct to dvd. Why won't they consider a line a of direct to dvd Gargoyle movies. It would sure make more money than a lot of the other crappy sequels that they keep putting out.
A: I have answered this MANY times before.

I'd love to do a movie or tv show, live action or animation -- though it is of course NOT up to me.

ashley bourke writes...
will you ever write about timedancer
ashley bourke writes...
when will you write about timedancer in the comics
A: And the Bad Guys story I'll be telling in this six issue mini-series is happening in late '96, early '97. This is the story that NEEDS to be told now. I hope you like it. AND I hope you'll support it. Because if this limited series does well, then GARGOYLES: PENDRAGON is next in line. And after that GARGOYLES: TIMEDANCER. (That's as far out as I've allowed myself to think up to this point.) If the limited series doesn't do well, then it'll be the last one... and I'll eventually incorporate events from Pendragon, etc. into the main Gargoyles book.

gary j writes...
how can we bring back new episodes of gargoyles. you say we need to see the show but it comes on at 2:30 3:30am central time and whos gonna watch t.v. that late. is there another way to bring back the show
A: There are no current plans for a fourth (or even a real third) season of the series on television, but you can look to the comics to continue the series, picking up right where Hunter's Moon left off.

odinsmagic writes...
i think there should be a movie. With real actors in make up portraying real gargoyles
if they can turn ron pearlman into hellboy why not make do the same with gargoyles
A: As I've said many HUNDREDS OF TIMES in the ASK GREG archives and elsewhere.

IT ISN'T UP TO ME!!!!

I'd love to. But for now, you'll have to settle for the comics.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Thailog mentioned it in the episode. something about "...you've know she was your daughter since before we staged your capture..."
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Demona Let herself get captured? Huh. News to me.

I never figured that one out! Doh! :P to me!

Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

VAEVICTIS - Often, the big problem that I have in handling those "already-been-asked" questions is that I know what the answer is, but can't find the precise place where Greg gave it so that I can quote it. Pity.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

I apologize for the double-post.

I believe some of these questions may also have been answered before:


ashley bourke writes...
will you ever write about timedancer

ashley bourke writes...
when will you write about timedancer in the comics

James Swann writes...
Why can's the Gargoyles episodes be put on the internet where those that wished to could purchase, download, and put them on dvd? That way Disney won't lose any of their precious money on production costs.

Pat Hatt writes...
With all the direct to dvd movies now a days and the pile of crap Disney puts out direct to dvd. Why won't they consider a line a of direct to dvd Gargoyle movies. It would sure make more money than a lot of the other crappy sequels that they keep putting out.

Anonymous writes...
Do you plan to introduce Lexington's mate in the comic books?

emma writes...
will the show come back with new episodes

Vaevictis Asmadi

Todd >> There's a question that has already been answered many times:


aubrey writes...

could goliath and elisa have a child naturally with the help of science

Vaevictis Asmadi

Damn, I forgot yesterday was Bastille Day. Otherwise I'd have quoted Rush in the signature. Well, it's a little late now, but...

It'll be interesting to see if we get the dates that Thailog and Sevarius acquired the rest of the DNA.

Antiyonder: Neither. Russian mind control is to blame.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"There's no bread. Let them eat cake. There's no end to what they'll take. Flaunt the fruits of noble birth. Wash the salt into the earth." -Rush ("Bastille Day")

Meant to mention this in my earlier comment. Anyway, when it comes to simplifying material for the younger crowd are they really looking out for the target demograph or do they prefer making simple material because doing otherwise means working hard?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]

Todd > So are you saying that Demona doesn't know how to French correctly?

I was re-watching "The Reckoning" just the other day. Take a good look at the scenes where Angela is talking to Demona in her cell, and tell me that the bars aren't so widely spaced that she could just turn sideways and step through.

And that episode was only about the fourth or fifth time that Angela ended up in shackles, too. :P

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]

According to "Ask Greg", today, July 14, is the date of Demona's getting captured (or, more accurately, letting herself get captured) by Goliath and his clan in "The Reckoning".

I find it mildly amusing that the gargoyle in the series with the strongest ties to France (she's visited Paris three times, if you count "The Last" as canon, and even impersonated a Frenchwoman - though the less said about her French accent, the better) should have been taken prisoner on Bastille Day.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

It makes me wonder why teen shows and sitcoms bother to preach to the audience that you can't rely on shortcuts to get you through life. Network execs and their methods of producing generic shows prove that to be a hollow moral. Are they preaching to us or to themselves?
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]

Unfortunately, dumbed-down TV and public stupidity feed upon each other. I imagine the process got started the moment that it was possible to be entertained by sitting on one's butt without moving for hours, and without troubling even to read.
Vaevictis Asmadi

I am delighted that so many of you are circulating the 2008 Gathering flyer, and that the word seems to be getting around! If anyone wants to help our cause and get registration up early so we can afford to do more with guests by putting the flyer out there in comic stores or college campuses or at upcoming local cons in their own neighborhood please contact me at lotsoflabs at comcast.net and I will make sure you get one!
Susan L - [lotsoflabs at comcast dot net]
Susan Leonard

Hm. So if the media is just responding to a public's genuine desire for lowbrow, unchallenging material, where did that desire come from?

It's hard to say right at the moment, because, well, it partly depends on what your opinion of human nature in general is, and a lot of other things. For instance, are we getting stupider? Is the US really king in that department, and then why is that?

I think that people should be allowed to watch/make what they want, even if it is crap. What's more important is that they understand the material is crap, and they're capable of dealing with better material too. I'm sure all of us have our guilty pleasures. Change should focus more on the culture than the popular media, though these have a complicated interrelation

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson

It may be that people in other countries aren't any smarter than Americans... but the media here has got to be without a doubt the stupidest media anywhere. News reduced to sensationalist sound-bites, unbelievably insipid cartoons and "reality" shows, gore-thriller movies with neither plot nor characters, and even books dumbed down. Yep, sounds like America to me.

Unfortunately, people who market to children assume that they are 20 times dumber than they really are. Children can handle complex shows and interesting concepts, if they are exposed to them and given a chance. And if they aren't raised to believe that anything worth doing should be easy and require no effort, they may be willing to try to read something complex. Unfortunately, while American children may not be quite a stupid as marketers assume, they are butt-lazy. Most kids aren't willing to do anything that requires more effort than staring mindlessly at a television.

Vaevictis Asmadi

****There is a loud CRACK, and Blaise Apparates into the Comment Room.**** Seemed like an appropriate entrance given the discussion.

HARRY POTTER 1 "DUMBING DOWN"> I have to admit, I was a bit disappointed to find that the title for the first Harry Potter book (and thus the name of the title stone itself) had been changed. Like Todd, when I first read the book--which was the "Sorcerer" version--I thought to myself, "Odd, that sounds like the Philosopher's Stone." So I was not surprised, but still pretty angry, when I found out that it WAS the Philosopher's Stone originally (and in EVERY place else in the world BUT the U.S.).
I ranted and raved about why they changed it and made the similar allegations about "dumbing down" and couldn't get over the fact that I had heard about "Philosopher's Stones" in video games and TV since I was 6 years old.
But Todd has made the following statement:
"The account that I'd heard was that the publishers were afraid that American kids would think that anything with the word "philosopher" in the title would automatically be boring."
This is not the first time that I have heard this, either. If this is true, then the primary motivator for the change was not to make it "easier" for "dumb kids" to understand...it was just to SELL the damn book.
And the saddest thing of all is, they were probably right! I mean, think about it--a 6-11 year-old kid (who has NEVER heard about the Philosopher's Stone) sees a NEW book in a NEW series, by some author NO ONE has ever heard about before. Would this hypothetical child be more interested in this book (ultimately leading to a sale of said book) if it had the word "Philosopher" (shades of Socrates, Plato, etc.) in the title, or "Sorcerer" (shades of Gandalf, Merlin, etc.)? Well, if the cover art is intriguing enough it won't matter--but I guess Scholastic didn't want to take any chances.
So why was this only done in the U.S.A.? Because making money is first priority for most businesses here (and boy, do we "Gargoyles" fans know THAT).
I do hope to someday, own a copy of the book with the REAL title (which will mean getting copies of the rest of the series because they keep up the Philosopher/Sorcerer change throughout).

Well, that's my $0.02 worth. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise turns in an attempt to Apparate, and instead just falls flat on his face. He calmly gets up, dusts himself off, and walks out through the door.****

Blaise
"Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life."--Terry Pratchett's "Jingo"

Not a problem, I wasn't snapping either, just merely having a discussion like always. Sorry about your rough day yesterday. I'm just glad it's the weekend. It's so nice having weekends off.

* * *

I can't wait for Gargoyles #5 either, but I will be waiting an extra day. My friend and I drive pretty far to get comics. We go to Williamsport, PA, which is almost an hour from where we live. We do this every Thursday and afterwords we meet up with friends in Lewisburg at the Lewisburg Hotel for wing night.

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

HoE: i wasnt saying that anyone should be left behind. And yes, you are part of a minority, but why the title wasnt "dumb down" in England or in Argentina, but was done in the USA? England or Argentina´s people are not smarter than american people, so were is the difference?
Demon@

Well, Gargoyles is what inspired me to read about King Arthur. Before, I only cared about really ancient mythology. But I'm finding the Arthurian stuff is interesting as well.
Vaevictis Asmadi

JJ Gregarius-- Maybe, maybe not (my apologies if I was in error, Tony). Given the way my day went, yesterday.........
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

All this talk about British terms and no references to Spotted Dick? Is this place going soft?

Demon@: <Its kind of sad that a book has to be "dumb down" instead of having the society "smarten up"> Yeah, no one gets left behind anymore, unfortunately. I think it's unwise to screw with Natural Selection, but here we are.

The sad thing is, it can be used as a tool to motivate education if people let it. There were a few things on Gargoyles that I didn't understand, but I did whatever I do when an unfamiliar term or idea is mentioned in something I'm watching: read about it. But it's naive of me to think that everyone does this. I'm probably in a minority.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Terra, in this world there are people like me who have chosen to bury their emotions. Never forget that." -Shadow ("Final Fantasy VI")

I just ordered Gargoyles #5 from Midtowncomics, Can't wait.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

...and are you sure that Tony was snapping at you? ;-)
JJ Gregarius

-_- Jeebus, Tony. I wasn't snapping, just informing. Yeah, there's a technical term for it.
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

TTT your post appeared while i was writting mine :P
When you say "americanzation" perhaps you mean to traslate an "England" slang (is that how you call it?) to "American" slang. But in these case, there are changes of meaning on the words and the phrases themeselves.
For exaple, i remember that in the original X-Men cartoons Rogue was traslated as Titania here O.o.
In some cases, though, it is appropriate. In Gargoyles we have Fox in the english version and Zorra in the traslated spanish version. But in spanish that particular word is not only use to denominate the female of a fox, but we also use it like you use the word Whore >.<

Demon@

Sorry, I used the wrong word. The American versions of the Harry Potter books are "localized".
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Wich came first the dealer or the drug? The media, as part of society, should not encourage
ignorance or stupidity as it normally does in all parts of the world. When a child is born
he grows up to become a reflex of the society he leaves in.
Parents should care for him, school should give him knowledge and the medias should
encourage the search of that knowledge. If instead of putting a new terms in a childs mind
like "Philosopher's Stone" we put "the Sorcerer's Stone" because the kid probably already
knows what a sorcerer is, then he is forced to live with the same words, the same knowledge
all his life, instead of teaching him new things and develop his hunger for more information.
Once he is an adult and an active member of society, his vocabulary and knowledge are going to be
very limited, and he will required the things to be "dumb down" for him to uderstand.
I think that ignorant people are easier to control, and easier to satisficed, than cult ones.

Demon@

"Americans translate or "Americanize" Japanese dialogue from video games all the time."

The technical term is "localization". It's part of what I do as my day job. ;) (Not translating, mind you... sort of like spell- and grammar-checking the translations to make sure they make sense.)

Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

J. K. Rowling owns the rights to her books and it belongs to her, correct? So wouldn't she have to sign off on said "Americanization"?

I see no problem with it. Americans translate or "Americanize" Japanese dialogue from video games all the time. What's the big deal?

Solution: Buy the books from England.

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

@Incisivis- "which came first, the dumbed-down media or the public that demanded it"
The media wouldn't provide something if they didn't believe there was a market for it large enough to justify the costs of production. That means the demanding public (or the appearance of the demanding public) must have come first.

MEDIA/CULTURE- So what do we do? Can we to resist this "dumbing down" (and how)? We're just as much a part of this society and culture as anyone else- what can be done to reverse the (apparent) tide of complacency/fear/neglect/etc?

I don't really have an answer, though I feel that it will do none of us any good to give in and/or separate ourselves from "culture" and thereby avoid responsibility. It's a hard HARD question... but I couldn't *not* ask.

Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Nothing Fights]

Todd> Hogwarts High? Thank GOD they didn't do THAT!

J.K. Rowling would be rolling around in her grave!

Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

I'm holding onto the illusion that the "dumbing down" is at least in part a result of executive cynicism as much as a total cultural truth, that there are more people comfortable with something "out of line" (whether they be references from other cultures, or violence), than the big guys in charge of the media would believe. It's just that the stupid people get the floor because they shout the loudest.

But it's a whole chicken-and-egg scenario. How can we say which came first, the dumbed-down media or the public that demanded it?

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

That's precisely my problem with most media. It seems that it's all about appealing to the lowest common denominator or the "great white-washed" as I call them. There was a brief period of time when people created media that both entertained and enlightened. Now instead of something like Gargoyles, we're left with Beavis and Butthead or Ed, Ed and Eddie. Bleagh.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

Its kind of sad that a book has to be "dumb down" instead of having the society "smarten up"
Demon@

Its kind of sad that a book has to be "dumb down" instead of having the society "smarten up"
Demon@

I'm just glad that they didn't Americanize the setting for the U.S. editions (though I recall the nervous rumors, back when they were first talking about making "Harry Potter" into a movie, that they'd do just that to it and have Harry attend "Hogwarts High", complete with cheerleaders).

The British vocabulary is more consistently included in the later books, I might add.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Sirengarg: The sci-fi writing guidebook you're thinking of is David Gerrold's "Worlds of Wonder"

Yeah...I'm hoping to avoid self-publishing when I get a novel done, mostly because of the stigma involved, one that partially that comes from the perceived lack of quality control. I'd like to have control over illustrations and depictions, but I can live with it if things don't go my way. Plus, and I know this will sound stupid, I would feel that I've really "made it" if I went through a screening first. Eh.

As to the thing with Harry Potter and the title changing, I'm not even a fan of the series and I find it idiotic that people keep doing things like that. That people so stupid walk this earth is pretty depressing.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

HARRY POTTER "AMERICANIZATION" -- I look at it this way; not every child in the US is going to know about what things in Britain are called, so there was a necessity for switching out some of the words.

When I first lived in the UK back in 1979 -- my father had been stationed to a USAF posting on a borrowed RAF base in Oxfordshire -- there was a lot of things that had names that were commonplace to the average pre-teen in England (i.e. - Lorrie, Pub, Roundabout, Bobbies and Mash, Chips and sweets and the like). But for a kid from the US, it wasn't until I'd lived there for a while -- and asked a bunch of questions -- that I understood what the things were behind these names.

I disagree that switching "Philosopher's" for "Sorcerer's" is anything close to "dumbing down" the HP books. Unless a child is well exposed to the culture the book came from, it becomes necessary to make the switch in words to ones that a child in the US can identify, otherwise the whole experience of reading the story becomes rather frustrating.

Stephen Sobotka Jr
"If you love the house, you must love the crow on it." -- Chinese Proverb.

Of course, people in this comment room have been talking about Gargoyles for 10 years, even though it was canceled. What can I say, fans like to talk about what they like, even if the corpus is finite and not expanding.

But Gargoyles was revived, comics are being published and issue #5 is due on July 18! The comic book needs all the support it can get to continue publishing.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Lord Ryven, it is, in comic book form. http://www.slavelabor.com/category-exec/category_id/19/nm/Disney_Comics Gargoyles #1 - #4 available now with #5 coming next Wednesday.

* * *

I just heard two co-workers conversing a few feet away from my cubicle asking each other if they saw that Gargoyles flier. It was awesome. The word spreads!

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]

Hey, I always loved Gargoyles, in particular Talon, Magie and the other mutates..

Is the serious still being continued? the way many people are talking it seems like the series is still going on and stuff is happening.

Lord Ryven - [L0rdRiven at aol dot com]
Red Ryven

Gods I hate that. If I wanted to read a book that was americanized I'd just read a book by an american author! Gah! One of the reasons I like things like Hellblazer. I've actually had to look up words used in it at various points. lol Makes things more real IMO.

I've not actually read any of the HP books. I *might* after they're all said and done with and if I do I know the americanization is going to annoy the hell outta me. =/

Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

It's not just the title of the book they dumb down; they also "americanize" all the britishism in the books, too. For example, in my Cnadian book they call them "sherbert lemons" and in the yankee books they are called "Lemon Drops" I belive.
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

I was annoyed when I heard that they had changed the Philosopher's stone to the Sorcerer's stone as well, and pretty much for the same reasons. If we didn't know what it was at the beginning, it got explained. Thankfully, I knew what it was because I was older than the intended audience and already familiar with certain mythical elements. That's proven helpful in regards to some of the episodes of Gargoyles. Namely Arthur, Anansi, and Odin; not so much with Cuchullain(sp?), MacBeth's history, and a few others. But I went and learned them, so it's all good.
Asatira

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury: Its...a silly thing...I had a seizure of "buy buy everything!!" and so i did. I purchased a lot of books, more than i could read with the time i had :P After i had my own library the movie come out, and i liked it and read more about her, purchased her books...and there i have them, but i have to catch up with all the others :P I learnt, however, that movies based on books are only half as good as the books they are based on, so if i liked them, i can imagine how good the books are.
I have just finished to read The Belgariad, great books if anyone cares :p

Demon@

I know that, when I first read "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone", I was wondering why they called it "Sorcerer's Stone" rather than "Philosopher's Stone", since the description of its properties (turns lead into gold, produces the Elixir of Life) made it obvious what it was.

The account that I'd heard was that the publishers were afraid that American kids would think that anything with the word "philosopher" in the title would automatically be boring.

I was one person in the audience who *had* heard of Anansi even before "Mark of the Panther" came out, though I wasn't as familiar with him as with some of the other mythical figures featured in the series.

Probably the only "real historical or legendary" elements in "Gargoyles" that were new to me were some of the Scottish history elements. Much of Macbeth's story in "City of Stone" was familiar to me (the fact that he overthrew Duncan in battle in actual history, Gruoch, Lulach, Canmore as the nickname of Duncan's son Malcolm), but I had never heard of Gillecomgain by name before (only that Gruoch had been married to someone else before Macbeth and that Lulach was her son by that marriage), and was initially bewildered by the use of "Findlaech" for the name of Macbeth's father's name, since in the Shakespeare play, Macbeth's father's name is Sinel. Then I discovered that "Findlaech" was the name of Macbeth's father in actual history. I was also unfamiliar with Kenneth II and Constantine III before I saw "Avalon Part One", but after I saw it, I eagerly began reading up everything that I could find about them.

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Jen: I don't know. I think a lot of the suckiness of "The Phantom Menace" had to do with the fact that the director A) sucked at directing, and B) sucked at motivating actors. Although, if you're talking about editing a script, he would have benefited from showing it to someone not being paid to kiss his ass, then he would have realized that Jar-Jar Binks is a lot like bio-warfare: a very bad idea.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"But see? That's what I'm talking about. Now Venture will send Samson after the rest of us and he'll go totally sickhouse on our asses! I like my ass, gentlemen." -The Monarch.

Some of you may remember fellow fan Zach Baker. He's been to multiple Gatherings, performed in multiple Radio Plays, married a fellow Gargoyles fan (and had a kid with her, thus insuring us future generations of fans). He's a former student of mine, and a very funny guy.

And Zach Baker has been kicking butt and taking names on Jeopardy the last two days. He's won $44K already. So tune in tomorrow to your local Jeopardy station and send Zach your psychic best wishes. (It's a syndicated show, so check local listings. It's on ABC, channel 7 at 7pm in Los Angeles.) And yeah, I know the episodes were taped weeks if not months ago, but it's good karma! Trust me.

Greg Weisman
Zach Baker is a Jeopardy GOD!

The thing I've wondered about network execs and/or editors is why they bother to hire a creative team or writer in the first place if they think they could do better. Only thing I can think of is that if a book/show/movie fails they can blame the creative team.

Yeah, I know that sometimes a change can be legitament, but from the example I've been reading here it seems more out of arrogance than professionality.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo,com]

B&CF - Jo Rowling doesn't have a middle name.

With an editor = Empire Strikes Back
WithOUT an editor = Phantom Menace

Think about it.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- COLOR G2008 flyer dot dot dot pass 'em around!]
Dizzy: No guts, no glory! // Rico: No Brains // Carl: No kidding.

It's not like they don't explain what the gorram thing is in the book, ANYWAY... ;P
Kythera of Anevern - [kythera (at) gmail]
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - R.E. Howard

B&CF> "And just how many 9-11 year olds know what the Philosopher's Stone is?"

How many know what the Stone of Destiny is? Or who Oberon and Titania are? How many ADULTS have ever heard of Anansi?

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

And just how many 9-11 year olds know what the Philosopher's Stone is?
Besides, Americans ARE too dumb to understand an Australian accent (see Mad Max).

Without looking it up, what is J.K. Rowling's middle name?

Demon@> If you have so much admiration for her, why haven't you read her work?

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury
Music Selection: Shoot the Violist

Jurgan: it depends on how talented and dedicated the author is. I do agree that edditors help in some cases, its like having a neutral voice in the matter of correcting ones work, but its also molesting to have someone who has probably never written a book to tell you how you have to tell your story. Some edditors do their job, correcting errors, but sometimes they want to change all of your work just to make it more "selleable" Its more or less the same thing that happens with illustration work. I once had a work of ilustration for the "Clarin" magazzine. They gave me the first chapter of a book to draw a dragon describe on it, and the idiot of my "boss" kept correcting my work until we had some stupid-classic looking thing. When i pointed out that the dragon described in the book was different he coudnt even understad what i was talking about. Publishers and edditors are normally usefull but sometimes very molesting. They prefer profit to originality...wich is fine in some cases, i guess.
About JK Rowling i do admire that women very much, i never read her books, saw all the movies though.
About the fanfiction thing I have just read the Untold Stories of TGS page O.O awesome work.

Demon@

Greg B.> Exactly my point.
Siren

Siren> I'd like to think if JKR did, we would have gotten the first book here with the proper title, instead of the dumbed down one, because "Americans are too dumb to know what the Philosopher's Stone is".

Ugh.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Jurgan>Did I ever say anything about an editor in my post? I didn't ever mention cutting out the editor. Not once. I said you are cutting out the publisher who calls the shots on how a book should look. You can hire an editor through B&N to proofread the manuscript before publishing. Also, there are editors all over that can help out before the book is published, without going through B&N's more expensive editors. Teachers for instance. I know several litarature and english teachers locally who during vacations work as freelance editors to authors to help shape their book and make it ready for publishing. They do it for a much smaller fee.

I feel as an author, we should have a say on HOW the book looks. I wouldn't mind advice from a good publisher, especially if I saw their advice sold a lot of books. But if the cover of my book was not what I invisioned at all and to me takes away from the magic of the book, I wouldn't be happy with it. Same with any illustrations. But publishers don't care. If you send them a manuscript with illustrations and they love what they read, they will toss your illustrations and hire someone else and the author rarely gets to give their input. Especially if they are new to the field. Of course, JK Rowling gets to approve EVERYTHING about her book and all the marketting behind it, but that's because she's earned it. But don't think that she had a lot of say in the first book. Because she very likely didn't.

Siren

"But this allows you as an author to have FULL say on what's in your book."

That's not necessarily a good thing. Insofar as illustrations go, I see your point, but you're also cutting out the professional editors. Some people doubtless think that editors are just pains who cut up authors' work and take over, but they can be helpful. Many self-published books, I'm sure, could be made better if they were looked over by a professional. I know of one very prolific professional writer who is notorious for ignoring his editors. It shows. He's constantly repeating certain discussions and character descriptions over and over again, and he occasionally makes some major bloopers, like in book eight, a character describes something that happened to him back in book three, only it was the wrong character. So, in short, I'm suspicious of self-publishing, because I think most novels are made better by the editing process.

dph: That air hockey question actually may not be just a random Ask Jeeves question. Considering how much air hockey Greg played at The Gathering, there's a little bit of logic in that. It's still pretty odd, though.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

I second the notion of self-publishing. That's what Vox is going to do soon. Though she's basing hers around the crafting she does so it's a bit different.

Spoon, that rocked the casbah! Had both me and Vox (my girl) rolling with laughter.

Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

Spoon.....I F***ING LOVE YOU!!!! *dies laughing* That is hilarious!!!

Sorry for the double :P

Siren

Demona@>I haven't finished the books yet. :)

Also there is such a thing as SELF-PUBLISHING! It can be pricey at first, but the pay off can be big if the book is good. Barnes and Noble has a part on their website where you can have them print your books and people can buy them through B&N's website. Depending on how big the book is, what kind of cover, and any illustrations, the price can range widely. But this allows you as an author to have FULL say on what's in your book. For instance, authors often don't get the chance to hire or approve illustrations and even covers of their own books. The publisher handles that. But if you self-publish, it can end up better for you, because you have full control. And if your book is popular and/or B&N big-wigs like it, they will carry it IN their stores. Some B&Ns have sections specifically for these self-published books, while others get their own displays if they are doing well. If I have trouble publishing my books, I will go through B&N to help me.

Also, pick up books like, "Writing Children's Books For Dummies"....I bought that as a joke to myself and DAMN its has been the most helpful book I have ever seen. A LOT of info on how to get published. What to do and what NOT to do. Its fantastic!
There is also a book I read before about writing science fiction and fantasy novels. It has a bald woman on the front cover, she was blue, like ice blue. Reminded me of Farscape or something like that. Also a very good resource.

Siren

Hah! off-topic, I know, but I am so pleased and amused with how this turned out:

www.livevideo.com/video/6E8BA78DAF454E6E94ED3C51251FAA6E/gargoyles-nothing-fights-puc.aspx

Gargoyles- Nothing Fights (with Puck as Dane Cook) mild language.

Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Nothing Fights]

**Ask Greg related**

An Ask Jeeves question slipped in Ask Greg:
Everette writes...
can the mallet touch the goaly box in air hockey ?

I found this question interesting:
Justin S. writes...
How many more copies of Gargoyles Season 2 vol. must be sold until we can get volume 2?

**end Ask Greg related**

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Incisivis: I'd have to agree about TGS. Some things were very good, others... could have been handled more gracefully. I don't know what Greg B. has told you, but feel free to email or IM if you want my own thoughts.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Our deeds have traveled far. What we have been is what we are." -Dream Theater ("Beyond This Life")

Wow. And here I thought my refusing to tell people about my original stories was me being a superstitious twit. :p

I've been keeping track of my drafts lately, and it's also good to know a fifth draft is considered normal. Because for me, just...ghah. WHY WON'T YOU WORK RIGHT, DAMN YOU! *stabs computer* Fortunately I discovered the magic of outlines.

And yes, the odds of getting accepted/published are very small. That's why you have to do your research, and, you know, never give up and stuff.

I've actually been thinking about reading TGS, whose existence I've been aware of for quite a while. Greg B has told me it's a mixed bag, so....I'd have to choose carefully.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

Siren: why dont you publish it?? Im written a novel too, but no one i know would care to read it :( :P But once its finished, i hope i can publish it.
Demon@

Siren: why dont you publish it?? Im written a novel too, but no one i know would care to read it :( :P But once its finished, i hope i can publish it.
Demon@

With regards to Oz, it's long lapsed into public domain so anyone can use it. Not the same thing at this point. I do dig where you're coming from though.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

Well, regarding "Atlantis", we know that there's that Team Atlantis story about Demona - and Greg Weisman views its essentials as canon.

Other elements of the "Team Atlantis" series wouldn't fit in as well, including the Loch Ness Monster episode (though, since it was never made, it's a moot point).

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

My book, I haven't let anyone read. I have let one of my friends in on its story, because of his love of mermaids and his pure honesty as a human being. I have never know this friend of mine to do anything wrong in his life. I'd doubt he start now. Another book I am writing about a pit bull, I shared with several friends due to their knowledge on the breed I am writing about, so it was helpful to get their input.
Siren

TinyTiny
Your worry is valid, but unlikely. As likely as getting attacked by a shark in Ohio. Whatever your idea is unique to you. If you want to cover yourself, save your previous drafts in a file. That will document your creative process. But here a couple of things to keep in mind. The number of ideas submitted to those that make on screen/film is like a million to one. The majority of those that make it follow a formula or an archetype of some variety. (This is the summer of the threequels, more of the same seen in the first two installments)

Keep writing. Worry about that once you've finished your fifth draft.

Taleweaver - [rfootman1 at earthlink dot net]

And I wouldn't also just count fan fiction are sign offs and unusable. Look at the book Wicked. Its based on a well known book series about the Land of Oz. Yet its a modern book and isn't even written by the original author. I am unsure if he got permission to write it. But Wicked was essentially, a fan fiction. And yet, it is making millions on the best seller list, as a musical, and soon to be a live action movie. There are a lot of books based on classic stories that essentially are fan fictions. And yet, they are well written and sell well. So there is hope out there for fan fiction writers. Success comes from writing something that you either have permission to write or is no longer effected by legal constrainsts.
Siren

Offhand, Batman: TAS and Atlantis are the only two universes I can imagine crossing over smoothly with the Gargoyles universe. And much of Atlantis would stop fitting in when Greg decides to reveal his own ideas about the sunken island.
Vaevictis Asmadi

Yeah, my biggest fear is that the book that I'm writing will show up on the big screen. I've told a couple of people, my roommate, my mom, my sisters, and this girl that I went out with once; that's about it. It's hard because you want to tell everyone about it, but you're afraid your big idea will get out there and someone will steal it.

I hope to finish it someday, but it's very slow going. I'll buy your books guys when you get them published. Hopefully you'll buy mine.

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]

Count me in as another one of those people who agrees that the fewer people who see your writing project, the better. I'm only letting one person see the chapters in the book that I'm writing (he's given me some good feedback on them and help me catch some plotholes and other weak spots that I've missed).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

KingCobra: Sorry, but I have to agree with Bishansky on this one. I've let my brother peruse chapters, but that's about it.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Our deeds have traveled far. What we have been is what we are." -Dream Theater ("Beyond This Life")

Greg B.> *shrugs*
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

BLAISE> "if I were crazy enough to attempt something like this, Christine Morgan would come and kill me. Then she'd chop me into itty-bitty pieces and bake me into a pie."

She'll do it too.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

****A sound rather like a muffled "WHOOPH" is heard from behind the door leading to the lavatory (when did THAT get there?). It is immediatley followed by a great deal of cussing (also muffled), and then a noise similar to that of an industrial car wash. After the din subsides, a freshly washed and dried Blaise steps out of the lavatory door.**** Sorry...my aim was a bit off.

FANFIC AND CROSSOVERS> Well, I think most of the bases have pretty much been covered by others already. I will say that I personally got into fanfic a bit in the early part of 1997, after I discovered a thriving "Gargoyles" community on the internet, and had begun suffering from a bit of "Gargoyles" withdrawl. :-)
I found a couple of authors I liked and read a good deal of their works. Also, when TGS came out, I was a pretty avid reader of that. Eventually, though, I just kind of...stopped. I'm not quite sure why. I know I read a few bombs (wish fulfillment of the WORST kind, and that sort of thing), but I don't think that was the main reason (or even if it was *A* reason at all). I think, gradually, the cumulative effect of all these different takes on characters and events (Demona's redemption coming WAY too easily, the myriad relationships given to Brooklyn or others) just sort of burned me out. I do know that TGS's decision to make the Quarrymen hammers *magical* in nature was a major turn off for me as far as that series went.
That being said, I do occasionally read a bit of fanfic--or just skim it. Mostly, I do this when I hear good things (or funny things) about a story or author. For example, Nancy Brown was brought up earlier in this discussion, so I checked out some of her stuff (not bad). But it's not the hobby it once was.
Now, as for crossovers...well, I find that they're fun for me as long as I don't take them too seriously. And frankly, most of the crossovers mentioned here and that I've read elsewhere (like this one "Gargoyles/Darkwing Duck" crossover I found) occur via the old "Another Dimension" plot device. In many ways, that's the only way a number of these universes can interact, and (like I said) so long as I'm not too serious about it, I'm OK with it.
Ultimately, it's the interaction that's the appeal of the whole thing--to see how these characters from different stories react to each other and (basically) the hilarity that ensues. And sometimes it's not a strict one-on-one crossover--one of the most ambitious attempts I've seen was "All Through the Night" by Merlin Missy. A crossover between "Gargoyles" and "The X-Files"...AND "Batman: The Animated Series" AND the live-action "Beauty and the Beast" series...with special "guest appearances" by Pinky and the Brain, and Sam from "Quantum Leap"!! I mean, son of a crap! It's like one of those little clown cars!
Personally, I'll admit to holding a morbid fascination with the idea of a "Gargoyles/Scooby-Doo" (original 2-3 seasons version) crossover. I just keep seeing potential for playing with all the old gags. You know the bit where Shaggy and Scooby SOMEHOW find a kitchen in the middle of all the weirdness, Shaggy starts making a sandwich, asks for Scoob to pass something, and the monster-du-jour passes it from the side opposite Scooby, there's a delayed reaction, scream, run, etc.? I just have this image of the "monster" in question being Broadway, who really IS there to help with the food. Yes, I KNOW there's more to Broadway than just eating, but...COME ON! It's just too perfect!
So why don't I write it? Several reasons: 1) I'm not quite THAT confident in my abilities as a writer to attempt something like that, especially when it comes to writing for the characters themselves (and here, I'm actually more worried about the "Gargoyles" characters than the Scoobies), and 2) if I were crazy enough to attempt something like this, Christine Morgan would come and kill me. Then she'd chop me into itty-bitty pieces and bake me into a pie. At the 2001 Gathering she was very clear that (for reasons obvious to anyone who has seen a particular skeleton in her fanfic closet) she was against any crossover with Scooby-Doo. So only if I were really crazy (or high, or drunk) would I attempt such a thing. :-D

There, I've said my piece, and that's enough for now. Until next time, farewell. ****Blaise concentrates as he teleports away. Unfortunately, he just teleports himself about twenty feet in the air, and forgets to compensate for gravity. After slamming into the ground, he gets up and staggers out of the Room, quietly cussing all the way.****

Blaise
"Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life."--Terry Pratchett's "Jingo"

Cobra> Why don't you let HoE finish it, try to publish it, and if he succeeds, you can find out.

I'm writing a screenplay for a movie right now, and I know I won't tell you or anyone else about it until it is finished and an agent has looked at it. I only told one person about it, and it's an individual I trust with my life.

I don't mean to come down on you, just saying it's probably not the best thing to do to ask an author what an in the works book/script they hope to one day sell is about.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Harvester> What's your novel about?
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.

Well, just to clarify, legal in the sense that if fanfic is a crime, it's victimless, since it's not being done for profit.
Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Our deeds have traveled far. What we have been is what we are." -Dream Theater ("Beyond This Life")

Me, I'm using fanfic to try and rediscover my muse. I've been working on a novel since 2000, and reading over the 120 pages I've written, I realize that I hate most of it. I like the basic germ, but not the main body, so I'm thinking of scrapping everything but the prologue.

So, since I'm opposed to drugs, I figured I'd try some a legal means of getting the creative juices working again. Well, that and I don't like ninety percent of the stories pertaining to a certain character that I've read (no offense to anyone; we all have our opinions, and we're entitled). ( ;

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"Our deeds have traveled far. What we have been is what we are." -Dream Theater ("Beyond This Life")

@Battle Beast- "So long as you stay within certain guidlines (don't go and say "Oh yes, there is a clan of 100 Gargoyles living in Muncie, Indiana. Didn't you know?" or kill Goliath off on page one.)"

*snerk* I misread and thought you'd written "kill off Goliath on EVERY PAGE," which I think could be quite hilarious and interesting if someone handled it well.. 'The 57 Deaths of Goliath.'

{/crack fiction}

Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

FANFICTION ADAPTATION AS ARGUED BY SHAKESPEARE>>> Wow! What I am about to say ACTUALLY has relevance to the conversation!

I saw last night, at the River City Shakespeare Festival in My hometown of Edmonton, "The Two gentlemen of Verona."

The way it was done... in the 1970's, a groupe adapted "TGoV" into a funk musical on Broadway. It got rave reviews.

The Free Will Players (The troupe that puts on the show ever year {next year 20 strong!}) paid $20,000 for the rights to the musical.

It has to be, hands down, the BEST adaptation of Shakespeare I have EVER seen. (I've seen Othello, A Midsumemr Night's Dream (x2), Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, The Tempest, The Merchant of Venice, The Merry Wives of Windsor, Love's Labour's Lost and The Taming of the Shrew all live on stage.)

The songs were adapted from the play's own prose, and fit in with the story VERY well.

The show was hilarious!

It was "TGoV," but with a twist, and I got full enjoyment out of it!

Now, as for fan-fiction adaption of cannon, I am all for it. In adapting "TGoV," they turned Shakespear's cannon into an hilarious 150 minutes of fun and funk.

Richard the III was adapted into a nazi regime theme, and although I didn't see it, I heard it was incredible.

So, if you can take any of Shakespeare's plays and adapt the Bard's own words into something incredible, I don't see anything wrong with adapting the Gargoyles universe into your own story. So long as you stay within certain guidlines (don't go and say "Oh yes, there is a clan of 100 Gargoyles living in Muncie, Indiana. Didn't you know?" or kill Goliath off on page one.)

Go for it! I've read some whicked fan fics, and I'd love to read more!

Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

Just to clarify what I said earlier, I enjoy a good fanfic, but I have not read one in a long time since 99% of what's out there tends to fall into the crap section. Not saying anyone in here writes crap at all.

I remember a time when there was a lot of gold in the fanfic archives, now... not so much anymore. And most of the non-crap leaves me a little cold.

Nothing wrong with writing fanfic, far from it. I've written it, and if I come up with a decent idea for the next Gathering anthology, I'll write it again. It is a great way to learn your craft.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

I second everything Leva just said ('cause I'm lazy like that).

I love reading a well-written fanfic even if it involves taking a mental step outside the canon into an alternate universe. I don't think it disrespects the creators of the canon to appreciate someone else's interpretation. And it *is* good practice. Writing fanfic isn't any different than sitting with a guitar playing riffs on Hendrix or Jon Bon Jovi. It may not be your original creation, but that experience you gain still counts for something.

And I suppose if I wanted to get technical about it, writing fanfic has been a hobby for me for over 20 years, as well. Somewhere in storage, my mother still has squirreled away the stories about the Smurfs, Scooby Doo, and the Super Friends that I wrote in pencil on lined paper when I was in elementary school. :P

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" - every Scooby Doo villain

Asatira> They're definitely good practice. I haven't written fanfic, exactly, but I've been part of a Star Trek-based email RP for years, and it's definitely honed my writing skills.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]

I don't see why fanfic is illegal, unless the writer tries to sell it.
Vaevictis Asmadi

I do like reading fanfics, especially if they're good ones. The only reason I don't read too much of it is because I don't have the patience to go through all the muck to get to the gems. But when I find a good one, oh the joy I have reading it. The other reason I can be a stickler on fanfics is I want them to be extensions of canon, to a degree. Namely, something plausible within the universe. I've been easing up on that criteria because there are unofficial things (like certain pairings in a couple other shows) that work out well because they do keep the original treatments in mind. As one comics writer mentioned in a panel, fanfics can be great practice for writing because the writer is working within the rules of an existing world and with existing characters. So long as it's practice. And, hey, if you're good, you could become a published writer for those novel series of things like Star Trek and Buffy.
Asatira

What's important to me is good writing. Even if the story's been told before, if it's being told better than I've ever seen it before, it gets full marks from me. And if it's being told in a new way too, well, so much the better. An original story is great, but without a good storyteller, it falls very flat.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd - [Kth_dragon at hotmail dot com]

On the subject of fanfic.

I've written fanfic for +20 years now, if one wants to count the Thundercats graphic novels I did in elementary school. For me, it is fun -- it scratches an itch in my brain that writing original fiction doesn't touch. I, quite simply, enjoy it. Have new canon material just encourages me to write more. I will probably always write fanfic, even if I sell original fiction someday.

Not everybody likes fanfic. That's okay. However, a lot of the arguments against fanfic just don't hold water. I've heard ...

"It's disrespectful to the original creators."

-- I, personally, do not write in universes where the intellectual property holders (IP holders) object. Some people do, but I don't. Somehow, I don't think Greg Weisman or Disney has a big problem with fanfic in the Gargoyles universe given that fanfic authors were interviewed on one of the DVDs. Same with the other universes I personally play in.

"It's an unproductive waste of time."

-- So are most hobbies. And I've heard people who spend tens of hours a day watching genre TV deride fanfic as "a waste of time" ... umm. So's watching TV. Or reading a book. Or drawing a picture. Or playing a sport. Or making models. Or pretty much any recreational activity.

Fanfic, for me, is recreation.

"It's illegal."

Lots of things are against the law. The question is, is it immoral? I argue not, others will disagree. We'll just have to agree to disagree, because that's an argument that is absolutely intractable and isn't ever going to be resolved.

"It'll ruin your chances to be a professional writer."

I can name a rather large number of industry pros who have come out in defense of fanfic, including some A-list editors. (Theresa Nielsen-Hayden has gone so far as to list fanfic writers she's read and recommends on Making Light.)

I can also start naming well known writers who write, or have written, fanfic. Off the top of my head -- Cory Doctorow, Elizabeth Bear, Mercedes Lackey. Doesn't seem to have hurt their fiction sales any.

"It's unoriginal or has no literary merit. It's just copying."

Okay, granted, there's a few million or more uninspired examples of Harry Potter porn out there ... and what only *feels* like a few million Wincest stories. However, I can tons of stories with real literary merit.

In this universe, Nancy Brown's series of stories come to mind -- she singled out a whole bunch of minor Gargoyles universe characters and brought them to life. She has a remarkable ability to get inside the head of a character matched with awesome use of the English language. Wonderful stories.

In my *own* fanfic -- I do a lot of crossovers. And the reason I do crossovers is because it allows me to say something about the universe(s) that is very difficult to do otherwise. For example, I wrote a Buffy/Inuyasha crossover because it let me explore the problems inherent in one woman being judge, jury, and executioner, with no right of appeal, for all demons. It worked well, IMHO -- Inuyasha's a hot-headed idiot and powerful enough to give the Slayers serious trouble, and Buffy didn't initially see anything more than Yet Another Big Bad to kill.

I'm also writing a series of Highlander/RuroKen crossovers because telling the story of an Immortal who is Not MacLeod and who has a very different perspective on the Highlander Game lets me explore a few themes that Highlander canon characters aren't really good for. Things like, how do you deal with it, really, if you'll never grow old -- but your wife is? Or if you *don't* kill the bad guy when you can, even knowing he's a BAD guy, and you have the ability to stop him, because you've sworn never to kill again ... are you morally responsible if he hurts and kills other people later?

Fanfic is very good for exploring themes that canon doesn't touch on -- for reasons of ratings, or target audience, or lack of interest from the show's writers, or lack of time, or the show got cancelled, or a million other things. I do it with crossovers, other writers do it with canon-based fanfic ... and it's one of my favorite reasons to read and write fanfic.

Anyway. This is a bit of a rambling post; sorry if it's a little scattered. Gotta go now ... :-)

Leva Cygnet - [leva at firefox dot org]

And, while we're at it, one week until the publication of Gargoyles #5!

(After which, everyone who attended the Radio Play at this year's Gathering will no longer be feeling the strong temptation to dig a hole in the ground, whisper in it what they learned about how the "Double Date" story winds up, then cover up the hole again and hope that no reeds grow there. :) )

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

B&CF > "Um, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" - That was nearly 20 years ago. In Hollywood, that's an eternity. The upper management at both studios has changed at least three times since then, if not more.

352 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"When you work with handcuffs as long as I have, you pick up a few tricks. " - Elisa Maza

Blaqthorne: Well, even for "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?", the waters were still extremely testy. If I remember correctly, either Disney or Warner Brothers wanted something in writing (maybe both) that their characters would have equal amounts of screen time. Which I think is what ended up happening.

Good movie, but still no love between them.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"What, that's soccer? I always called it 'human foosball.'" -Homer Simpson

@Siren- It's worthwhile as long as it brings something new to the discussion (whatever it is). Look at what Gargoyles has done for Shakespeare- Just look at Macbeth! A character, a history, a story that's neither the play nor the history, but something new and original. The Gargoyles crews' work has added a new dimension, layer, and depth to characters and events that would otherwise be familiar and suddenly makes us think about race, love, family, honor, betrayal, death, revenge, reading, culture, etc etc etc in a new way.

Anyway, that's what fanfiction could strive towards. Or we could have fluff and wish fulfillment, which will certainly never lose its place..

Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

I get what Spoon is saying.

Books influence writers. The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe has elements of The Bible. DaVinci Code was influenced by Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Harry Potter, Eragon and many other fantasy novels are mish-mashes of books, movies, and other outside influences. Spoon is right. There is NOTHING 100% original out there. Even our beloved Gargoyles has influences, some of it benign (Gummi Bears) and others of it blatent (Shakespeare).

Just because nothing is original doesn't mean its less worth our time. Eragon was a best seller, and yet, it was very much a retelling of Star Wars. Taking someone else's idea and making it your own.

Siren

Finally got back from my Gathering trip which started with witnessing Sosa's 600th and finishing with getting cooked at Sunday's TB-KC game and getting a ball from Tom Foley (woohoo!!).

Kristen re: bootlegs> Apparently they don't care too much about them since several of us have reported these sites (and if several of us have reported it, I'd imagine many more people have also contacted them about Gargoyles bootlegs and bootlegs of other properties of theirs on that and other internet retailers), and obviously nothing has happened.

Black-haired Demona applause figure> According to the dealer at the original '97 con, they did release an accurate Demona, but only in the UK. Unfortunately, they only had the black-haired figures.

Patrick> "Never mind that "Gargoyles" is owned by Disney and the Harry Potter rights are owned by Warner Brothers, and the two studios are mortal enemies."
Um, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

Here's to a Gargoyles movie produced and directed by Micheal Bay--just to see what Bishansky would do.

Blaqthourne & Crimson Fury

@Ethan- Gesture acknowledged and appreciated: what I mean by "Western literature" is probably misleading (the hallowed "canon") and I actually mean to include "basically everything written," since the importance of reference can be found in all cultures. I mean, isn't that what writing is? Words as an idea, a signifier representing a "thing" but separate and distinct from that thing? A word as a signifier with it's own rich history of reference and connections giving it it's own particular special meaning in that language?

*shuts off ranting since we're drifting from fan fiction* Better spare you all and save that for my lit papers.

Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

While I dig where you're coming from and actually do agree with the idea/spirit of what you're saying, the cynical side of me wants to pipe up with "90% of western 'literature' should be tossed out as useless and worthless tripe IMO." But like I said, that's just me being a cynical jerk and shouldn't be taken seriously at all. Heh.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

I don't have much experience with crossovers (and thus no real opinion on them)- if they're written well, then they are. If not, they're not. But I'm not going to write them off entirely (not every HP/Garg crossover is going to be like the one brought up here recently, it's just not possible).

As for fanfic in general, I'm averse to writing it off. As Siren suggests, fanfiction is a great writing exercise working in the realm of reference. Basically everything in Western literature today would fall flat without reference, without tying back and communicating with/exploring those works that have come before- you could go so far to argue (though I won't, I'm just bringing it up) that the study of literature is about understanding and exploring the relationships between texts and "mythologies." Fanfiction (at a high level) should do just what literature does: create a forum for the exploration of ideas, of relationships, consequences, and interactions, an attempt to use characters/archetypes/shared experiences and stories to answer the questions in life that interest us most; Gargoyles fanfiction just works with a much tighter, much more specific mythology and universe.

I think of fanfiction (and music video making, for that matter) as works that rely heavily on highly specific referential systems. The creations are commentaries on the original that seek to expand them in new directions in order to create something new out of what's come before.

(of course, we all know there's good fanfiction and bad fanfiction.. good video editing and bad video editing... I'm talking about the ideal/underlying theoretical-ness here (heavily abridged.. my original several page musings are actually centered on MVs, though it all applies/comes from writing), which may or may not inform the fanfiction or music videos that you encounter out on the street)

So my vote: fanfiction can be a worthwhile endeavor that shouldn't be dismissed. And Siren's practical reasons are great, too.

(otherwise, we'd have to throw out huge chunks of Western literature for basing themselves heavily on what's come before.. Angela Carter's work.. John Gardner's Grendel.. yaddayaddayadda.. on and on for days)

Spoonvonstup - [<--- Gargoyles Music Video Database]

I write fan fics and crossovers for fun and as writing exercises. I'd say 90% of what I write, never is read by anyone but me. Usually just trying to get a feel of characters, how to stay in character and how to keep things flowing. I like writing stories of other characters because it helps to keep me going in the right direction. I feel I have an obligation to try to keep the characters, enviroment, etc true to the original. Crossovers are even better as writing exercises because its that much more challenging to keep them in character.

Thus when I do write my original works, I remember how to keep things flowing, in character, etc. I am currently working on 3 original stories. One children's story, and 2 novels.

Siren

Hi, guys.

July 18, whoo! :D Yeah.

The idea of crossovers makes me itch. Something about it just strikes me as WRONG. I don't know why, but it's not going to extend to an anger directed at people who do it. It's just not my thing.

I went through a long period of multi-fandom interests where I wrote no fanfic at all. I'm just getting back into the game now, but I think I'll leave Gargoyles alone: it's such a great series that I'd feel like I was somehow cheapening it, and also that there was nothing I could do with it. I did design my own gargoyle character, just for yucks.

Fanfic is fun for me, but I am working on original stuff because it can be sold, and because it's a lot more fulfilling. My fanfic also might be considered bland by most standards: they're more character-driven without much plot and no attempts to shatter the series' universe or status quo. The people who've read it seem to like it, though, so I'll keep writing fanfic as a side project to take breaks from my original work.

Incisivis - [incisivis at hotmail dot com]
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream" -- Shirley Jackson

JJ Gregarius - thank you muchly. I've seen that page before but can NEVER find a link to it on the SLG site anywhere! As someone who's legally blind, it's sometimes hard to find things on the web if they're not in obvious places. Glad I'm not the only one who had trouble finding it. I've bookmarked it now.

Thanks again. ^_^

Wingless

Upon further researc:
Check out: http://slgcomic.com/info-exec/display/shipping , under July 18.

Note that it should not be assumed that people would find that page, instead of, say, the "New Releases" and "Upcoming Stuff" sections of the website. AFAIK, the difference is that Gargoyles #5 is not available for pre-order.

JJ Gregarius

Looking at the "Upcoming Stuff" page on SLG. only thing listed is "Whistles Vol. 1: The Starlight Calliope".

Could you post a link to where you're seeing it?

Wingless

As of this posting, Gargoyles #5 is not on the Disney Comics, F-J Comics, New Releases, or Upcoming Stuff sections of the SLG website.

The Google query site:slgpublishing.coresense.com "Gargoyles #5", that is, Find documents with the string "Gargoyles #5" on the site slgpublishing.coresense.com, returns no hits.
site:slgpublishing.coresense.com "Gargoyles #4", however, returns four hits: one for the Disney Comics page, one for the F-J Comics page, and two (?) for the New Releases pages, due to the odd way SLG has laid out the website (compare http://www.slgpublishing.coresense.com/category-exec/category_id/11/nm/New_Releases/page_num/1 and http://www.slgpublishing.coresense.com/category-exec/category_id/11/nm/New_Releases/page_num/2)

Similar results are found when searching in the website "slgcomic.com"

Nonetheless, Greg Weisman has mentioned that the comic will come out in "Ask Greg"

JJ Gregarius

Wingless> It is listed. It's listed right there at the top.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

*Repeats his question from yesterday-since no one answered it*
Where is the listing for Gargs #5 at the SLG site? Their "Upcoming Stuff" doesn't have it listed.

Wingless

Todd> ON Wednesday, July 25th, my mother Turns 52. Also, "Weird Al" Yankovic plays in my home town, a concert, for the first time in eight years?. How about that for starters? :)
Battle Beast
That is all I will say.

This is certainly a good month for Wednesdays. The first Wednesday was July 4/Independence Day. The next Wednesday, July 11 (tomorrow), "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" opens in theatres. And the *next* Wednesday, Gargoyles #5 comes out. I wonder what we'll be in for on the final Wednesday of the month (July 25).

At any rate, I'm looking forward to seeing #5 and getting some of the questions raised in #3 and #4 answered (though only some of them, since some of the others, I suspect, will be saved for later issues). In particular, I'd like to see how the meeting between Xanatos and the White House steward goes. And whom Delilah chooses.

Of course, many of the people in this comment room will be looking forward to the comic for a different reason - the end of the period where they have to keep silent over how the Radio Play at this year's Gathering ended! (The entry on "Bash" at the GargWiki has a very funny comment on that.)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

*Ducks into youtube*

Wow. Closed-casket for THAT man.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"What, that's soccer? I always called it 'human foosball.'" -Homer Simpson

My take on fanfic has always been that using established characters usually never works out that well. There are exceptions (Dragonlance could be considered one as well as some of the Crow novels). In the case of Gargoyles, someone writing a story with the NYC clan... not so much. Someone writing about a clan of their own creation or of one that wasn't featured prominently in the series? That could work. The very little garg fanfic I've read that I could even begin to tolerate involved the main characters as little as possible.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

Bad HP/Garg fic> I only got through that by reading Mara's misting of it. Oh, my gods, the severe OOCness and character assassinations, the plot holes. Only the snarky comments kept me going! And reminds me why I read fanfics only sparringly.
Asatira

I got nothing, so check this out:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9i-dB_6Dvcw

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Harvester> Being a fan of both Gargoyles and ATHF, can you let me know when it's done so I can read it? Thanks. :)

Comic> July 18th. w00t.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.

Now that we have a release date, is there any possibility the cover art has been OK'ed for revealing? And how can we find out?
Vaevictis Asmadi

Todd > Harry Potter fandom has had 500+ pages of new canon every year for the past seven years and they still write fanfic.
Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"When you work with handcuffs as long as I have, you pick up a few tricks. " - Elisa Maza

dph: fixed the empty search results bug.

July 18th! I can't wait. I'll be looking to order a few and then hand them out to people to try and spark at least some local interest. I think this is the book to do that with.

Gorebash

If anything, I just view crossovers as a joke. I myself am working on a Gargoyles/Aqua Teens crossover, but I'm not taking myself too seriously, and am viewing it solely for what it is: absolute shite. Which makes it more fun.

So I look forward to reading Mara's MST, when I've got some time after I take this stupid test tomorrow.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"What, that's soccer? I always called it 'human foosball.'" -Homer Simpson

Bishansky raises a good point. Now that we have the comic going, and new stories at last, could that take away some of the impetus to write Gargoyles fanfic? I suspect that a lot of it stemmed from the show's cancellation and the feeling that "the only way that we're ever going to get new stories is if we write them ourselves". (I know that that's what inspired TGS.)
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

To be very kind, I don't think any of these crossovers could ever work. Any of them.

Well, the Buffyverse, maybe in a vacuum.

But they mostly leave me cold at best, or saying "What the Hell!" at worst.

Personally, most fanfic leaves me cold these days. I have not read a fic in years, and honestly, I don't really miss it. Nothing wrong with writing it, I used to. But I want to develop my own stories and characters now, something I could eventually sell.

We've got canon "Gargoyles" back, and that's better than any fanfic. I just don't care about fan wish fullfillment stories, I don't care about Mary Sues, out of character characters, wacky pairings, Demona behaving more like another Marina Sirtis character than Demona or any of that.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Gummi Bears could work fanfic wise as that show helped inspire Gargoyles to a degree.
Antiyonder

CROSSOVERS -- I've attempted a few of those, and succeeded (if responses from readers are anything to go by); crossing the universe of Gargoyles with SwatKATS, Rescue Rangers, He-Man & She-Ra and even Gummi Bears.

I've also had my share of aborts and the like... I had a Gargoyles/Kung-Fu: The Legend Continues that started well, but stalled out towards the end, and I even started a X-Men cross at one time -- which actually dealt with Alexander becoming too much for Puck to handle, and Xanatos ending up sending him to Xavier's School -- but it ended up in the "To Be Attempted Later" file I keep.

The X-Men idea isn't that new. A couple have attempted it with mixed results (One I recall had Xavier helping Elisa make up her mind what she really wanted to do about her relationship with Goliath, and Puck -- some how he got involved! -- helped Rogue by stabilizing her powers so she and Gambit could be together).

Crossovers in general are one of the hardest fanfics to ever attempt to write. Unless you have a score of knowledge on BOTH universes/casts you're writing for, and it goes without saying the best Crossover fics are the ones written by people who are fans of both shows.

That said, I really think someone COULD do a good Potter/Gargoyles fic, but I agree that both universes have enough quirks and differences to make such a story, even if Greg was to consider doing one (but he won't) that it'd be so far off the canon path... well, it just won't fly, I'd say.

Stephen Sobotka Jr
"If you love the house, you must love the crow on it." -- Chinese Proverb.

BISHANSKY - Yes, the MST did a good job of pointing out the flaws in that story.
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

The scene where Puck was putting Alex down for a nap, you hear Xanatos saying he and Fox are back. During that, Puck has a somewhat angry look on his face just before he turns back into Owen.
Antiyonder

WHen in "Possession" was he angry at Xanatos?

If you mean "The Price", no, I don't think he was tempted. As far as any were concerned, the stone fist was not a problem as Puck could fix it any time. Now, it is a problem.

Go read Mara's MST.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Since Owen was brought up, I remember one of those top ten fandom lists for Gargoyles and just had to ask. Think Puck was ever tempted a one point to give Xanatos the finger? That angry look on his face around the end of Possession just gives me that idea he considers it.
Antiyonder

Its freaking snowing were i am O.o It has never EVER snow here. I follow the example of you people...and i threw a snow ball to my brother. It hit him on the eye and now he is in the hospital XD Shame on you all norteamericans.
Demon@

On and off, I've been writing a Buffy/Gargoyles crossover. I remember discussing it briefly with Todd Jenson. So far what I got is: It happens during the World Tour. Elisa, Goliath, Angela, and Bronx end up in Sunnydale, California. I didn't take into account of the time setting. I know the time is off by several years, but I just flubbed it and started writing it anyways even if the timing is off. Demona is there too. Though I haven't got far enough to know WHY she is there. Like I said, its a work in progress that I work on occassionally.
Siren

Todd> Wasn't the MST hysterical though? You can thank Mara for that. Funny stuff. That fic deserved it.

I mean, it had Owen saying "what the fuck."

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

So, just to make certain, the next issue of the comic really is coming up on July 18? This isn't just a joke?

I think that Demona and Mystique would probably accuse each other of being a rip-off and get into a big fight over it.

Demona might ally with anti-human mutants like Magneto against the regular humans for her own benefit, only to turn on them once they'd outlived their usefulness to her (the same way that she'd been willing to make use of Xanatos and Sevarius, not to mention a few anonymous thugs).

I read both the "Harry Potter Meets the Gargoyles" fanfic and the MST that Bishansky mentioned. The fanfic really is dreadful; poor grammar (such as switching back and forth between past and present tense), equally poor spelling and punctuation, and numerous cases of people behaving out of character. (The real horror is Ron casually smashing Bronx - fortunately for him, the fic ended before Goliath could rip him to shreds in return.)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Something I wonder since Greg has occasionally snuck a Gargoyle reference into his other works. Would he include that gargoyle statue from Spider-Man The Animated Series? For those who don't know about it, Spider-Man would occasionlly go on a building to spill his troubles to a gargoyle statue he refered to as Bruce.
Antiyonder

Demona would probably see mutants as humans with powers. Demona's hatred of humans is not based on any perceived scientific or genetic superiority.

Personally, I think a crossover with X-Men would not work at all. Just my opinion.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

If they ever did a crossover, the most suitable and one that would make the most sense (besides Atlantis) is X-Men. They have the same themes. Prejudice, racisim. A group/clan of people living among humans, feared and hated, and yet they swear to protect them. And there are both good and bad mutants/gargoyles.

I do wonder how Demona would see mutants. She hates humanity, but would she truely see mutants as superior to humans and thus ally herself with them, or would she just see them as humans who got "lucky" and are a bit more powerful, but nonetheless still should be exterminated.
And if she saw them as better than humans. Would she think they were equal to gargoyles or less than? Whatever she thinks, I think a team up with Demona and Mystique would be devastatingly cool!

Goliath and his clan would probably be more apt to accept them as allies, being they have so much in common.

Siren

If I called my local comic book store by Friday, then shouldn't I have any problems with the comic book store getting issue #5 on time, right?

Also, I noticed tron #4 is being released *after* gargoyles #5. Not that I'm complaining, I find it odd.

Gorebash - I just noticed something. When you do a search through Ask Greg's rambles and you come out with nothing, the phrase "No results found" is covered up by the gargoyles logo.

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Strike that second "in general." That's what I get for typing too fast.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

I'm sorry but the thought of a cross-over between Gargoyles and Harry Potter just churns my stomach. >_< Not to mention the HP fandom in general are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too crazy in general for me to ever want to get anywhere near without massive amounts of firearms, mustard gas, or napalm.
Ethan Gilchrist - [ethan at randominformation dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges." --Jack Terricloth of the World Inferno Friendship Society

Gargs/Harry Potter> I would not want to see that. It sounds better as a fan fic idea then as canon.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
"Ignore me!" - Venture Bros.

4:32:56 pm EDT < 5:21:01 pm EDT

I'm so excited for #5!

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

Where is the listing for Gargs #5 at the SLG site? Their "Upcoming Stuff" doesn't have it listed.
Wingless

SLG JUST updated their site.

July 18th, baby!

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Diamond has been wrong about this before. I e-mailed SLG and am waiting for word back from them on the date.

As long as it's out in time for San Diego Comic Con, I'm happy.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Matt:

Proof:

1)
http://www.diamondcomics.com/shipping/expected_071807.txt

2)
http://www.slgpublishing.coresense.com/info-exec/display/shipping

3)
My word as a gentleman

:)

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

TTTony or anyone> Is there any documentation to back up that claim?
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Interesting this comes up, given what happened to me this weekend:

I was hanging out with my boyfriend and a friend of his over the weekend. This friend, I discovered worked for Disney once upon a time, so naturally I asked him about Gargoyles. He said "Gargoyles? Warner Brothers owns that." I said, "No, Disney does." And he said "No, it's definitly owned by Warner." And we bickered about it for a while and of course I was sure I was right, and he seemed pretty sure that he was and eventually he said, "Well, if Disney really owns Gargoyles, why do they never mention it or give it any publicity?", to which I replied, "Good question."

Anyway, I think this kid is an idiot, but he's a friend of the "other" so I have to put up with him. The boyfriend did stand up for me though during the argument and told his friend, "Dude, I think Matt is right. Trust me, he knows what he's talking about..."

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Gargoyles #5 7/18/07
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

I've also wondered about Alex's rapid aging - which does have precedents. There are many stories about people who are the result of human-god or human-mythical-creature matings that displayed startling precocity: Merlin, for example (whom we know was Oberon's son in the Gargoyles Universe), was speaking fluently while still an infant (and even successfully defended his mother when she was put on trial for having a son out of wedlock - if through the "questionable ethics" route of revealing that the judge presiding over the trial was himself illegitimate, followed by the judge's real father, who was in the courtroom at the time, running out in a hurry and subsequently committing suicide in alarm). Hermes, while still a baby, made off with Apollo's cows. (Far more recently is the case of H. P. Lovecraft's Wilbur Whateley in "The Dunwich Horror", for that matter.)

I wonder how quickly Fox matured. Of course, given that she never showed any sign of her faerie parentage until she let Oberon have it in "The Gathering Part Two", I suspect that she grew at the same rate as any other human. Alex, on the other hand, with all the training that he's receiving from Puck, will probably be another case.

(Of course, the interesting part of it is that Xanatos and Fox will need to do a lot of explaining if Alex does mature physically at a rapid pace. They got away with their current explanation to Ambassador Chung, but if Alex continues to grow up unusually fast....)

Alex could be almost the "Gargoyles" equivalent of the old "soap opera children" cliche. :)

I don't see the likelihood of a Gargoyles/Harry Potter crossover operating outside of fanfic, either (especially because of the Warner Brothers connection to Harry that Patrick mentioned). The two worlds have different rules, and I don't think that even Weisman and Rowling working together could make them mesh perfectly. (I know the feeling; I'm writing a fantasy novel that has some aspects evocative of both "Gargoyles" and "Harry Potter", but I don't think that it would be seriously compatible with either world at all.)

I remember some years ago that "Avalon Mists" did a special "Harry Potter/Gargoyles crossover issue"; not surprisingly, two of the three fanfics in it involved Leo and Una. (One had Hagrid stopping by the Mystic shop, and mentioned that the London clan deliberately avoided setting up their shop in Diagon Alley because of past difficulties with the wizarding world; Slytherins kept on wanting to use gargoyle parts as ingredients for their spells. The other, written by Christine Morgan, had Leo suffering from a severe toothache until Una had to take the desperate step of bringing him to a dentist. Hermione's parents are dentists: I think that you can guess where things go from there....)

Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

Gargoyles and Harry Potter> Hnn, nix the idea. The approaches to magic are very different, as are the tones and worlds. It'd be forcing the issue. And forcing a story is never a good thing.
Asatira

PATRICK> Considering Alex's pedigree, I expect his mind will age fast also. He was going to be gifted even without the extra help.
Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 12th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

Never mind that "Gargoyles" is owned by Disney and the Harry Potter rights are owned by Warner Brothers, and the two studios are mortal enemies.

If Alexander ages faster physically, will his mental development keep pace or will he become the movie cliche of a child in an adult's body?

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]

I don't want J.K. Rowling to write "Gargoyles". I don't want Greg Weisman to write "Harry Potter".

For that matter, I don't want both universes to crossover. They may both be fantasy, but they both operate on different tones and themes. I love them both, but I don't think they would mesh well.

I'm usually pretty averse to crossovers anyway. Alex doesn't need to go to Hogwarts, he already has an excellent teacher. Plus, at the rate he seems to be growing, by the time he's 11, he may look 44.

If you really, really want to read a Harry Potter/Gargoyles crossover, look for "Harry Potter Meets the Gargoyles" on http://fanfic.gargoyles-fans.org...

... no scratch that, don't read that fic. Look for the MiSTing of it written by Mara Cordova. THAT is worth reading.

Greg Bishansky - [<---- The 11th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles]
"Am I speaking Latin again? Silly me, sometimes it just slips."

I don't think the two universes would mesh well. There are too many differences to ignore.
Vaevictis Asmadi

Happy Birthday, Phil!

* * *

I don't want another Goliath Chronicles. The story would be a spin-off and only center on Alex Xanatos and his new friends/enemies at Hogwarts.

It could have his parents visit, maybe even Lex, and maybe even the England Clan. I think it has the potential to be a neat little journey. He would be a young wizard like Harry, but his parents aren't dead.

And I would want Rowling and Weisman to co-write it. Since she'd he using his characters, he can write their dialogue and how they would handle certain situations and what they would do. And since he'd be using her universe, then she would tell him what would be allowed and not allowed and how to fit it all in her world. I think the two would mesh well, but I don't know. I haven't read her books and I don't know her style, but it sounds cool because it's all fantasy.

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]

Greg has already said he can't stand to see anybody else write things set in his universe (except the fellow writers on the original TV show) and he never wants to read fanfic. So I can't imagine him allowing somebody else to write and publish and sell stories about his characters.

Besides, if it wasn't written by Greg, it wouldn't be part of his plan for the characters and the universe, and it wouldn't mesh with what's already written. It just wouldn't be the same. Do you really want another Goliath Chronicles? Talk about bad publicity!

Vaevictis Asmadi

TT: why would she want to do that?
Demon@

Happy Birthday to Alex Xanatos! (and to me, too)
Phil - [p1anderson at go dot com]

Todd Jensen, Alex at Hogwarts could be interesting especially because of his background. Plus, I believe that

Greg Weisman + J. K. Rowling + Disney = the re-birth of Gargoyles to the entire world!

Could you imagine? J. K. Rowling's is done with Harry Potter, so why not start a new story, right? And with Disney's permission, and Greg Weisman's help, using J.K. Rowling's booming success, they all could bring new life back to this small cult following!

TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake

I feel i'm in a torture chamber right now, can't be told about Gargoyles issue 5 and now can't be told whats happening in the Kim Possible season 4 final which is been shown in New Zealand and some people who don't want to know the spoilers have said they not allowed to post them on the forum (Ron Stoppable's Really Neat Page)and not email then the spoilers either.
Vicky82 - [Vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

It's Alex's 11th birthday. He's now (technically) old enough to attend classes at Hogwarts - though it's obviously not going to happen for many reasons (the separate fictional universes issue, Alex being American rather than British, and Puck's already handling his tutoring).
Todd Jensen
Gargoyles - did for monstrous-looking statues what "Watership Down" did for rabbits!

If that's a copy from the first printing, $15 might be reasonable. If it's not, that shop owner is being as obnoxious as Springfield's Comic Book Guy. Second printing copies of Issue #1 can still be bought for the cover price through SLG's web site and Amazon.com. Anything paid above cover price is going nowhere but into the retailer's pocket.

354 days left until The Gathering 2008 in Chicago, Illinois!

Patrick - [<-- The Gathering 2008]
"When you work with handcuffs as long as I have, you pick up a few tricks. " - Elisa Maza

BIG day in Gargoyles History...
Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"Let this mark the beginning of a Golden Age! Between all our clans, both Human and Gargoyle!" -Macbeth

Correction -- I'm NOT buying the first issue for that price... sorry for the double-post, folks.
Stephen Sobotka Jr
"If you love the house, you must love the crow on it." -- Chinese Proverb.

PATRICK/TONY -- Well, I'm buying the 1st issue for that price. I want to support Greg and his efforts with the comic, but that's a big chunk out of my wallet (The shop owner did tell me the reason the 1st issue was that price, was due to the high number of requests he got for the comic). Surprisingly, the rest of the issues 2 through 4 are cheaper than their SRP.

Hope everyone has a good start to the new week!

Stephen Sobotka Jr
"If you love the house, you must love the crow on it." -- Chinese Proverb.

And away we go on with the show!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]
It's silly. It's a silly movie. There just isn't much there. Once you take it all apart, there's not much story, is there?- George Lucas on Spider-Man 3

Tenth, in the name of insomnia! ^_^
Yami Raven - [raven_mccloud2002 at yahoo dot com]
"And I would have stayed up with you all night, had I known how to save a life"-"How to Save a Life" by the Fray

Ninth!
Spen

Eighth!
Vertigo1
"I can't believe how hard it is to blow up a room full of gasoline!" - Adam Savage (Mythbusters)

seventh!
Purplegoldfish - [skydragonn at aol dot com]
"Whoa, Tiny, you mean there's more than one of you?" "My name is not Tiny! I am Goliath!" - Elisa and Tiny

Sixth.
aepuise

5th.
KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
'Ignore Me!' - Venture Bros.

Fourth I guess?
Asatira

One thing I forgot to mention.

Happy birthday, Alexander Xanatos.

**pulls out a non-chocolate birthday cake with 11 candles on it**

dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

Third in the name of dumb luck (what, it's Monday already?)!
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
"I'm proud of you, Mom. You're just like Christopher Columbus- you discovered something that millions of people already knew about." -Lisa Simpson, on Marge's discovering the internet

2nd in the name of Ground Hog's Day
dph_of_rules
Whatever happenned to simplicity?

F I R S T!
TiniTinyTony - [tinitinytony at hotmail dot com]
"I wasn't born yesterday, you know - I've seen movies." - Master Shake