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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 13, 2021

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Thanks Masterdramon, looking back at when I first started Spectacular Spider-Man and how it just blew up from something abrupt and to the point is kinda surreal.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Just adding as a Spoiler for consistency, but [SPOILER] Kari Wahlgren voicing Carol Ferris in Young Justice "Depth" was in Amphibia in "A Night at the Inn", a factory computer in "Fort in the Road" and Professor Scalini in "Sprig Gets Schooled" was in Dragon Quest Your Story as a Fairy.

Also a tidbit I like is that Marcy's favorite game Vagabondia Chronicles (Marcy at the Gates) is based off the Japanese 1987 box art for Dragon Quest II: Luminaries of the Legendary Line.

Only other US toon besides Adventure Time's episode The Diary I know of to reference DQ. [/SPOILER]


Masterdramon> Also, [SPOILER] while I'm not sure if it has any fans here besides myself, Zeno is the first and only VA from a Weisman production to do a role in Pokémon. That being Goh from Journeys.

He also did minor additional voices in Amphibia according to the credits for "Little Frogtown/Hopping Mall" and "The Shut-In!".

That said despite having watched Ben 10 Alien Force and Ultimate Alien, I didn't catch sight of him voicing say Alan Albright.

First time I caught sight of his name was for the Dub of Dragon Quest Your Story (based of Dragon Quest V Hand of the Heavenly Bride, yeah been a fan of the game since the first via Nintendo Power) as Prince Harry.

Blum also did the voices of Kon the Knight and Gootrude the Slime. And Cissy Jones (Lilith) voiced the mother of the lead character and wife of Pankraz, Madalena.

Funny thin, btw, is that while some joke about how Lois Lane in the upcoming Superman cartoon looks like Luz, Cissy did voice Lois in DC Lego Super Villain. [/SPOILER]


Antiyonder: Of the new voices featured in the premiere, the one I was most excited to hear was [SPOILER] Zeno Robinson, AKA Cyborg in Young Justice: Outsiders, Hawks in My Hero Academia, Onyankopon in Attack on Titan, and numerous other (primarily anime) roles in recent years as new villain "The Golden Guard." [/SPOILER]

In general, one of my favorite things about The Owl House casting has been hearing actors who normally only get roles in anime dubbing (and thus knowing they're collecting a sweet, sweet Disney union wage in turn). Season 1's examples included Erica Lindbeck, Mela Lee, and Billy Kametz. Amphibia has also had a couple examples in Keith Silverstein and Max Mittelman.

As both a massive weeb and certified dub-loving trash, I just like seeing these talented folks get the recognition (and paychecks) they deserve. :D

Matthew: As I've said previously, it's been difficult to keep up with responding properly to your YJ reviews/reflections given my work schedule over the past couple years...but I've definitely enjoyed reading each of them as they've come. Genuinely appreciate how much effort you've put into it across multiple series and seasons to this point.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"There may be a place for me in this man's soul. Not because of what I may receive, but for something of worth I may have for him." - Casca

Saw the Season 2 premiere of Owl House.

[SPOILER] Looking forward to seeing how things turn out with the Golden Guard, and also enjoying Lilith presence with the family. Also kind of like the idea of her and Hooty. Bet some of you will be tossing something at the screen or tempted to.

Also Steve Blum voiced the pirate Salty. [/SPOILER]


Oh yes, I've been assuming for a while that, whenever the Light talks about how everything is going to plan, they're either bending the truth or just lying outright - because, of course, they're usually explaining it to a minion or an uneasy ally, and when your strength is almost entirely in 'is a genius mastermind', the last thing you're going to do is be honest about when you actually didn't see something coming. They just build their plans to advance a few different schemes, at different points, and then - if it gets interrupted - they can point to something minor accomplished earlier and say that was the real goal (Bereft is a good example - really, testing that Boom Tubes could reach Earth was what mattered, not the loss of an escaped clone and unique New Genesian tech-lifeform? But they'd want to keep Psimon thinking everything is on track, so they spin up something about how testing something that'd been in use for millennia was the important bit.)

Y'know, somehow I'd missed that there was a new radio play for 2018. Does anyone know if there's one planned for CONvergence 2021? Maybe we'll get an update on the mysterious J.W...

Karrin Blue

One thing that stood out to me in "Summit" is the Team ultimately forced the Light to expedite their plans to betray the Reach sooner rather than later. Another thing that stood out was that the only reason their double cross worked was because of Bart's arrival and spilling the beans to Jaime. And the fact that the Light never learned that Bart was a time traveler.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

And giving fairness to others who are critical of it, I can understand being annoyed with The Light or other enemies always getting a victory from a loss.

Though episodes like Usual Suspects and Summit arguably work cause it's satisfying to see The Team turning the tables on them.

Matthew and Karrin Blue> See now I'm thinking about certain scenes from the radioplay Musicology 101 cause of your comments on Wally:-D.


Ah, what a season.

One of the things I like about the Light as villains is how, in the end, they rely on the heroes as much as they get thwarted by them. There's about a half dozen points where they get in over their head, either because they misjudged a situation and an enemy they wanted to bait towards Earth, or their actions spurred someone else to try and swoop in, and the Team ends up salvaging the situation. As we know from Impulse's future, they would've gotten completely beaten by the Reach on their own, and in s3, their own plans to weaken the League's power means that Vandal has to personally fight a horde of Starros - and if those Starros didn't get called over in the first place because they sensed the Light mucking around with their Starro-tech, I'll be very surprised. It's a very interesting hero/villain dynamic, and I wonder if in S4 we'll see the heroes bring up how (after Vandal essentially shows up and knocks on their door) they've in some ways gotten trapped between doing what the Light was relying on them doing, or doing nothing and letting bad things happen to everyone else.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Greg's preference to reveal fake-out deaths by the end of the episode they happen in, I'd absolutely be expecting Wally to still be alive. Not in the Speed Force (it not existing in YJ is one reason, of course, but also since he was running so much slower than Flash, and that being the whole problem), but maybe jumped to another timeline or dimension. Though, of course, that's also because I very much want a Justice Lords-esque arc where we meet alternate versions of everyone. Though for me, the bit that sticks out to me is how Wally goes all transparent and intangible before dissolving into light, which seems like a very odd effect for being electrocuted. Though even that might just be down to Standards and Practices wanting to keep things PG...

As a sidenote, speculation aside, even before S3 I didn't think the 'as a blonde' line was about Artemis turning to villainy - I always took it as Artemis meaning that she'd always considered herself a hero even while undercover.

Also, while I'm hearing this through the grapevine, it's apparently seeming that the Heroes in Crisis stuff with Wally is going to get heavily retconned - frankly I'm surprised it was still canon at all, but that's comics for you.

I don't want to get too ahead in the lineup, since of course we'll get to it soon, but I am curious what you mean about trauma being reserved for certain characters - death, sure, nearly all named characters survive, but physical, mental, and emotional trauma seems to be spread out through most of the cast - Nightwing and Tigress' grief over Wally, Lightning's guilt over Anna's death, Terra's emotional and physical abuse at the hands of Deathstroke, and (infamously) Halo's deaths*. And that's only four off the top of my head, but one of the things I did notice in s3 was how the stress seemed to weigh on everyone, if in different ways.

* (though I do wonder - if you're watching s3 at about two episodes a week, whether her four deaths will feel more spread out and less ever-present than they did when we were essentially seeing them every single week. Of course there are still issues with how they're framed, but that's something I've been curious about for a while.)

Your MVP picks are, as always, right on - Tim Curry is inimitable,though James Arnold Taylor tries, and Jason Spisak always brings his best. I'm still surprised that he can just do the Forager voice on his own - I thought that his audio was being edited, but apparently that's just him.

Karrin Blue

Thanks Todd, I'll be giving my thoughts on the season as a whole and some of my favorite moments before going into "Torch Songs" then it's off to Season 3.

And yeah after DC Nation abruptly cancelled both Young Justice and Green Lantern the Animated Series, Jason Spisak did a number of videos in-character such as reciting the Blue Lantern Oath and doing a reading of "Green Eggs and Ham" as Razer from Green Lantern.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Matthew - Thanks for the review. With that episode, we end Season Two - and all the episodes of "Young Justice" that I've seen (for now).

It's appropriate timing that you mentioned "Face Your Fears", since when I was at the library today, I spotted a trade paperback collection of the tie-in "Young Justice" comic, looked through it for a bit, and found the "Face Your Fears" story, which I read for the first time. (A couple of parts that stood out to me - besides the revelations of the team members' fears, which you'd analyzed earlier - were Kid Flash commenting on the Psycho-Pirate's fondness for alliteration and the foreshadowing of Artemis at the end.)

I recall much of the content from this one: Wally's death (obviously), the revelation that Vandal Savage was in league with Darkseid, the Justice League promoting the team (I recall a scene near the end where the team floated down to join the Justice League, as an echo to the ending o the opening two-parter at the start of Season One - a nice touch), and Luthor being nominated as the new Secretary-General of the United Nations (and naturally Superman, in the quotes, is unhappy with that development).

Returning to Wally, I recall a few years back his voice actor, as Wally, doing some Shakespeare recitations at YouTube (with little "Young Justice-verse" twists on them, such as inserting Artemis' name in the "What light through yonder window breaks" speech from "Romeo and Juliet"). I recall that the last one, reflecting the character's death, had a poignant tone, with Wally doing "If we spirits have offended" from "A Midsummer Night's Dream" and adding at the end, "It has been an honor and privilege to be your super-hero". (I know there were three such speeches, but I can't recall the third one.)

Congratulations on completing this season, Matthew.

Todd Jensen

Are the Gargoyles' claws retractable(like a cat's)?
Ryan Cameron - [rycameron2 at yahoo dot com]
Ryan C. Cameron

"We'll always have Paris."

Watched "Endgame" today and that brings an end to season 2. You know, it's a sobering thought that this was once the end of our story. And while it may not be quite the downer that Spectacular Spider-Man ended on it's still one nonetheless. The world is saved, but at a cost. The Warworld no longer looms over the Earth, but that's because it's under the control of Vandal Savage. The Reach are kicked out of Earth but the Light's true partner is revealed and they're even worse than the Reach.

Here's were we get to see the extent of what the Light meant when the said they wanted to Earth to take its place as the center of the cosmos and how they and their plans with the heroes have accomplished that. In the span of a year Earth's heroes have managed to repel two intruders on the same day. The Kroloteans on Earth were thoroughly crushed. The gladiatorial champion of ninety-two star systems was brought down. A warlord who can match Superman in terms of strength was taken out an his base which could destroy a planet twice over was confiscated. And finally, an alien race that fought the Green Lantern Corps to a stalemate was crippled. A few words to the right people and a little misdirection, and the major powers in the galaxy have all fallen one by one.

A sadly recurring theme of the episode is just being a little two late. M'gann and Conner arrive just too late to prevent the evidence that would exonerate the League, and the League members don't show up in time to help with the crisis. The heroes don't take down Black Beetle before he can enact his plan to destroy the planet. Blue doesn't detect the last MFD and Flash doesn't get to it in time before it goes chrysalis. And Flash doesn't realize that he and Impulse need to slow down and take some of the energy from Kid Flash until it's too late. It's a good reminder that the heroes don't always arrive in the nick of time.

What happens to Kid Flash is still a matter of debate and I honestly still have my doubts on some things. But we're still getting "No Spoilers" from Greg and we may keep getting that once season 4 comes around. But I'll just say this on the matter, the Scarab said that Wally will "cease" and that's it. For someone with such a colorful vocabulary when it came to violence and death it is a strange choice. Not disintegrate nor deteriorate, degenerate, break down or perish, just cease. It makes me think that the Scarab didn't exactly know what would happen and just made a guess.

But instead I'd like to talk about Wally and his place on the Team. Wally was never the best fighter even when the Team was just a trio, mostly focusing on taking out the regular henchmen. He was never the leader or strategist that Kaldur was and members like Robin, Superboy or Miss Martian grew to be. And it became pretty clear that he'd never match Impulse or his uncle's speed. But as "Face Your Fears" also showed is that Wally was aware of his limitations and still went ahead, and even if he wasn't as fast of the Flash he was still there to save his friends from the flung plutonium. Even after retiring he was still ready to don the costume and help in a crisis or to see Dick and Kaldur's plan to the end. And even if he wasn't as fast as his mentor and his new sidekick, he was still there to save the world. Wally acted as an anchor to the rest of the Team, especially Dick. And the aftermath of this will be felt even into the next season.

Some Final Thoughts: The episode carries a strong bittersweet feeling of having to soldier on after deep tragedies. The last few deaths: Jason Todd, Ted Kord, Tula, all happened off-screen so the emotional weight wasn't as heavy as it is here. The burden of having to gather up your strength, put on a brave face move onto the next mission will be explored further in season 3 and the problems that can arise from it. There was some speculation that Artemis would take the path of her comic's counterpart based on the lines between her and Bart, that she would try her hand as Tigress as a blonde rather than as hero as Bart suggested.

Something I need to bring up is what's happened to Wally since this episode originally aired. After the New 52 reboot, Wally was seemingly erased from existence, his friends all forgot him, his wife forgot him. Even after being put back into reality his uncle told him to forget about his lost children, his "therapy" caused him to have breakdown which caused his powers to go out of control and kill other heroes (despite the fact that his powers were never depicted as something that needed constant control), was sent to jail by his mentors. Found out that his children were trapped in the Dark Multiverse, saved them at the cost of his own personality as he became a New God and now in Future State, he was possessed by the Horseman of Famine and went on killing more people. I know Greg didn't start the huge trauma line for Wally, but it is a shame that this episode heralded it. And the nature of death and trauma being reserved only for certain characters is something we'll get into in season 3.

Acting MVP: This is Tim Curry's last performance as G. Gordon Godfrey as he suffered from a stroke in 2012. A shame as his performance was always so deliciously hammy. But the true MVP of the episode is Jason Spisak. He and Wally didn't get to show up much this season but he always made the best each time he appeared.

DC Profiles: Wally West was the first Kid Flash and the third man to carry the mantle of the Flash. He took up the role after his uncle sacrificed himself in "Crisis on Infinite Earths." After that he had to overcome his own mental blocks and insecurity to become the Fastest Man Alive.

Favorite Lines:

Aqualad: You are alone.
Black Beetle: I am sufficient.

Black Beetle: You! You're the cause of this debacle. It's about time your Scarab was destroyed, and your life ended. [Black's scarab taps into Blue's] You fight back, Meat, but you cannot survive against me.
Blue Beetle: I will survive. Because I'm not alone in this battle, am I Scarab?
Scarab: No, Jaime Reyes. Once you fought for control, now we fight together.
Jaime and Scarab: Friends, hermanos, fighting together against any attack.
Black Beetle: No!

Lex Luthor: Ladies and gentlemen, the fate of the world is in your hands.

Vandal Savage: Attention, citizens of Rimbor. I bear a message to the galaxy. I am Vandal Savage of Earth and I hereby declare my home world off limits to all incursion and invasion. Any breach of our planet's security will result in severe discipline.

Kid Flash: Ah, ze Eiffel Tower and the ever romantic city of lights. We're definitely coming back here, babe, y'know, when we don't have a world to save.
Artemis: There will always be a world to save. Now drop me and go. [Artemis fires an arrow which peppers the drones with devices that cause the drones to short-circuit and explode while Kid Flash plants a Tech Egg on the MFD] Omega Squad has- [Artemis is cutoff as Kid Flash runs up and kisses her]
Mr. Carr: Omega Squad, repeat transmission. Omega?

Impulse: I think it might just be working.
The Flash: It's definitely slowing, but not stopping. Even at our top speed, I'm not certain the two of can generate enough kinetic energy.
Kid Flash: Then how about the three of us? I may not be as fast as you two but I can add my fair share of kinetic energy. Besides, I can't let the new kid take all the credit for saving the world.
The Flash: Good man.
Impulse: So crash!
[The Flash and Impulse race ahead]
Kid Flash: Come on Wall-Man. You can do better than that.
[More energy is siphoned off as the Bio-Ship arrives and the Team departs]
Nightwing: Look, it's working! They're shutting it down.
Scarab: Earth's magnetic field is stabilizing.
Blue Beetle: Yes!
Scarab: But there is a problem, Jaime Reyes. The Kid Flash is in danger. His slower speed is making him an exit valve for the chrysalis' energy. [Kid Flash is struck again and again by excess energy and he notices that he as started to become transparent] In 16 seconds, he will cease.
Blue Beetle: Cease? Cease what?
[Kid Flash is struck once more and the Flash notices]
The Flash: Bart, we have to slow down more. Try to siphon off some of the energy attacking Wally. [He reaches out to his nephew but his hand goes right through him]
Kid Flash: It's no good, Barry. Oh, man! Artemis is so gonna kill me for this. And don't even get me started on mom and dad.
The Flash: Kid?
Wally: Just tell them, okay? [Wally vanishes]
The Flash: KID!
[The Chrysalis finally destabilizes]
Miss Martian: They did it! Ha![The clouds of frost falls revealing Flash and Impulse exhausted] It's over!
Aqualad: Congratulations. You have saved-
Artemis: Wait! Where's Wally?
The Flash: Artemis, he wanted me to tell you-
Artemis: no. no.
The Flash: He loved you.
[Artemis collapses, sobbing while M'gann holds here close trying to comfort her the rest of the Team look on in shock, confusion and sorrow]

G. Gordon Godfrey: Well, it looks like someone's finally listening to old G. Gordon, the lone voice of reason calling for the outing of Secretary General Tseng after his disastrous collaboration with the Rrreach. Well guess what, folks? Tseng actually resigned! You're welcome. Now, his successor has not yet been chosen, but I think there's only one man qualifies. The man who helped save us all from the Reach's MFDs. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you... Lex Luthor!
Superman: You have got to be kidding me!
Captain Atom: And on that note, I officially hand over my chairmanship of the League to you.
Black Canary: Wow, thanks so much.
Aqualad: This is no time for you to resign.
Nightwing: I'm not resigning, just taking a leave of absence. Besides, if you need help, Barbara's more than ready to step up.
Aqualad: Agreed. But Dick-
Nightwing: I need a break Kaldur. You, me, Wally, we-we founded this team. Without him...
Aqualad: [sighs]...I understand.

Batman: Having stopped the Reach invasion and broken the Light in half, the Team will now operate out of the WatchTower, side-by-side with the Justice League. Not because Mount Justice was destroyed, but because you earned it.
Black Canary: And so, we'll leave you to it.
Aqualad: This Team has had successes, but much remains to be done. Superboy, Miss Martian, Beast Boy, you're Alpha. B'arzz O'oomm has called from Mars. He needs help. Tigress, Kid Flash, Bumblebee, Guardian, you're Beta. LexCorp is bringing out the Reach soft drink under a new name. We need proof.
[From a distance, Nightwing watches the Team]
Nightwing: Business as usual.
Aqualad: The rest of you are Gamma and will investigate Batgirl's lead on Vandal Savage's next move.

[The Warworld enters the orbit of the hellish planet, Apokolips. Vandal Savage Boom Tubes down to the surface, passing by Desaad and G. Gordon Godfrey and approaches their master, Darkseid, who turns to face Vandal and the two shake hands]
Vandal Savage: Business as usual.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

KARRIN> Well there is still the ominously teased "Serpent" and "Garden" from the tie-in comic.
"You never completely have your rights, one person, until you all have your rights." -Marsha P. Johnson

Honestly, I always felt that Artemis was mocking Ra's with all that - very lightly, but still making fun of him and the whole mythology he built around himself. In s3, she even puts on a silly voice when she's asking him who's running the shadows, and the people she suggests (and how she suggests them - calling Sportsmaster my dad in the exaggerated faux-formal tone) are clearly not serious suggestions - and he knows he's being mocked too, because when she continues the joke and makes it clearer that she's not taking him seriously by asking if it's Jade he stops humoring them and tells them to get out. In Summit, she's using his whole reputation as an honorable gentleman to say he should help her do something as small as get up off the floor, and jabs fun at him when he doesn't play along.

Also, YJ's version of Ra's does have his usual crypto-ecofascist/ecoterrorist bent, it just hasn't come up much - in issue 11 of the tie in comic, he hijacks a Ferris Air rocket to make it wipe out urban centers. In the cartoon it hasn't been a major factor, since he's generally been standing aside or giving his support to other schemes, but I wonder if that's going to change in S4, since he's certainly involved with whatever Jason is going to be doing.

Karrin Blue

I'd say it's a good read, just not on a Canon level despite it being the intent.

Antiyonder - How is the Batman: TAS comic? I was thinking of picking it up when I had some cash to spare.

On YJ S2 - I think it's fair to say that Artemis's respect for Ra's is... mostly genuine. This version of Ra's is mostly pretty respectful, and gentlemanly. He's the head of a league of assassins, but he has a moral code. He's usually an ecoterrorist who despises humanity, but he's working with a bunch of government and corporate figures to achieve what seems to mostly be their ends.

Since YJ is an ensemble series it's sort of hard to get a REALLY good read on the character, and he has never really had *that* much to do aside from being another body in the room when the Light meets and providing muscle, but I think that your take on him is pretty accurate, Matthew.

Alex (Aldrius)

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Michelle James - [Florissanttreeservice at yahoo dot com]

Forgot to add the comment at the end, but my drop-off includes all but #4 of Batman The Adventures Continue, some Spider-Girl digests, plus DC Comics Presents #87 and Legends Of The DCU: Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Have the BTAC trade, the Spider-Girl Complete Collection Volume 1-3 (like supporting re-released when possible as it's one of two series that allows us a growing Spider-Man and just being good*). Even recently got the 3 Crisis On Infinite Earths Companion reprints.

*Did the same with The Amazing Spider-Man Renew Your Vows and the 3 issues of Spider-Girls. Got the trade and donated the original issues.


Matthew> Still don't have that app, but I have both of the recent trades.

Like I said, I'm holding onto the FCBD 2011 book cause of the Batman The Brave and the Bold story, but donating the rest to the library*.

But yeah Book Two has some articles from Weisman including on having to change that scene from #25 from a kiss to a stroke and a pic comparison.

Also some sketches and comments from Chris Jones of the characters appearing only in the tie in comic.


Thanks Todd, and yes. The darkness is most certainly coming.

Antiyonder>I read Torch Songs when it was released ahead of Season 3 on DC Universe (now DC Infinite). You can find there.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

I thought I'd have more thoughts on this, but I think you covered everything... oh, I remembered one: it didn't come up in S3, but I'm still certain that Artemis' glamor charm disguise will play a role sometime in the future. Her picking it up seemed like a very deliberate thing to focus on - we know for sure she still has it (of course, even if that hadn't been included, we could've assumed she'd grabbed it - but the focus on it seems very intentional) and, while of course that disguise is blown with the Light, there are still a lot of uses for a perfect disguise that'll fool (nearly) everyone...

I think Torch Songs is available online? I think I got it off Comixology the first time.

Karrin Blue

Todd Jensen> Sounds right.

[SPOILER] I didn't pick up on the Scooby gang parallels though. [/SPOILER]

But then I saw the season only twice. It is available on DVD if you can't get HBO Max though.

Matthew> So prior to the recent YJ trade do you have access to Torch Song (i.e. the only tie in comic past Season Two)?


MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review.

I don't recall many of the Season Two episodes of "Young Justice", but this one I did. I remember feeling a bit sorry for Black Manta, despite his being a ruthless villain; discovering that your own son has turned against you is a fate I'd wish on no one.

I recall a few moments from the next episode (though that's all I'll say until you review it). I haven't seen Season Three at all. I've picked up a couple of things about it:

[SPOILER] 1. Apparently the first episode of Season Three had a young girl being mutated into a monster, which was then sent into battle against the super-heroes; one of the super-heroes killed her and was horrified at having done so. (Definitely a mark of Season Three being much darker than the first two.)

2. I also learned that there was an episode featuring some characters called the Newsgirls Legion, who were apparently a gender-swapped version of some DC Comics characters called the Newsboys Legion, but with some traits also borrowed from Fred, Daphne, and Velma in "Scooby Doo" (particularly the "Mystery Incorporated" version). [/SPOILER]

I hope I've described these two features correctly; please correct me if I got anything wrong.

Todd Jensen


[SPOILER] The last bit you quote was and is still such, but all the more bittersweet considering the next ep. [/SPOILER]


Have summits ever worked out in one of Greg's shows?

Watched "Summit" today, the penultimate episode of season 2 and where things really go wrong for the Reach. One thing that the episode does great is the slow rise of tension that builds throughout the episode. Despite them being ostensibly allies, the whole episode just goes to show how out of sync the Light and the Reach really are. Black Manta and Black Beetle don't hide their contempt for the other side and soon the viewer isn't just expecting the two of them to come to blows but how often they'll be doing it. The moment Ra's spots the glamor charm, it's no longer a question of if Artemis' identity will be revealed but when.

The reveal and battle of Santa Prisca really shows off the chess-like nature that the Team and the Reach have engaged in, each side waiting until the opportune moment before they make their next play. Kaldur and Artemis reveal their "deaths" were a ruse and officially break the alliance between the Light and the Reach before coming in with backup. Then the Light reveals they have a contingency of Shadows waiting in the wings. Then it's revealed members of the Team have infiltrated those Shadows, and then it's revealed that it wasn't four members of the Light but five that showed up for the summit. Kaldur was correct that the Light has a habit of underestimating the heroes because of their youth, but it's also a fair assessment that Kaldur overestimated the Team's abilities as well. Kaldur said that he hoped to finish everything that night, but he knew that Black Beetle would be present and the Team doesn't have the best track record against him. It's no coincidence that last episode showed that the only way to free Blue and Green was through the help of Zatanna and Rocket, while the Team has always strived for self-reliance and being able to handle things without the League, if you're hoping on taking out the head players of the Light and the Reach you'll want to get all the help you can.

But the big clash of the episode is between Black Manta and Kaldur, no longer a case of sidekick versus villain but of a son versus the father. Kaldur's always been a melancholy sort of character and this battle really shows it. Kaldur ties appealing to his father's more noble nature and Manta wanting Kaldur to be as ruthless as he is. But Manta's more nobler side has been shown to be only around his son and Kaldur has engaged in some pretty ruthless behavior throughout the season. While it's not clearly depicted that Black Manta is interested in radical racial equality, there are some hints of it. Him taking umbrage at even the slight possibility of being a slave to the Reach, and his line about how a free man needs to be hard to survive in this world echoes a lot of racial rhetoric about how black men need to be strong and harsh to live in the world. Still Black Manta's defeat is treated as bittersweet above everything else which matches the ultimate end of the episode quite well.

The Warworld leaves orbit, under Savage's control. The Reach's plan is thwarted and the Ambassador disgraced, but that leaves the Reach under the control of Black Beetle who's a sore loser and wants to destroy the Earth. Several members of the Light have been defeated and taken into custody, but as we'll see in season 3 anyone in the Light is replaceable, including the upper echelons.

Some Final Thoughts: Speaking of villains with traces of nobility, here we get to see touches of the relationship between Artemis and Ra's. Despite being the one to blow her cover, Artemis doesn't really hold much animosity towards him and unlike Vandal, Ra's isn't infuriated at the deception. We'll see more of this in season 3 but I wonder whether the two of them had met up some time during the time-skip. She also seemed pretty shocked at Ra's being stabbed in the back, the two of them may be on opposite sides, but there is the chance of a mutual form of respect. One thing that I missed when I first saw this was a line from Kaldur about the Light adding a neutralizing agent to the Reach drink that wouldn't make the populace docile. But nothing about the addictive properties or effects that would trace the Metagene. Knowing their interest in empowered human in season 3, I guess there was a reason for that.

Beast Boy's relief and about Artemis being alive and Kaldur not being a traitor
and telling Nightwing not to fake anymore deaths for at least a year does make me wonder. If there hadn't been episodes cut, would we have gotten a big confrontation from the Team about the conspiracy much like what happened in "Antisocial Pathologies?" This is the second villain summit Miguel Ferrer was in that went poorly, though unlike Spectacular Spider-Man, this time the chaos is engineered by the heroes. I have to say that it's pretty nice of Bane to allow the Light to hold meetings on his island, considering all the trouble that inevitably follows with their presence. This episode parallels "Usual Suspects" quite well, both the penultimate episode for the season, both have their action set on Santa Prisca, both involve the heroes triumphing through togetherness, and both involve the Team basking in their victory unaware of the imminent disaster...

Acting MVP: Khary Payton once again brings a standout performance, the "spare the rod" line from Black Manta is particularly chilling. At the same time I love the transformation Kaldur goes through, from Black Manta II back to the Aqualad we know and love.

DC Profiles: In the comics, Black Beetle is a villain from the future and not involved with the Reach in anyway. In fact his fights against Jaime were few and he spent more time battling time-traveling heroes like Booster Gold and Rip Hunter.

Favorite Lines:

Ambassador: Remember, the Earth is now the property of the Reach, and per our original agreement, the Light is merely our favored allies amongst the humans.
Black Beetle: Show the proper respect, or suffer the consequences.
Black Manta: No agreement exists that makes a slave of Black Manta.
Black Beetle: No agreement exists that guarantees the life of Black Manta.
Black Manta: Manta guarantees that himself!

Kaldur: If you are watching this, then your summit is truly over. The Light and the Reach deserve each other, both sides playing at being partners. But the Reach believes the Light to be naïve tools of conquest, when in fact the Light has manipulated the Reach from day one.
Vandal Savage: Shut this off.
"Deathstroke": How?
Kaldur: It was the Light that brought Earth to the Reach's attention by sending the Justice League to Rimbor. The Light set their trap and the Reach snapped at the bait fulfilling the Light's desire to thrust our world into the galactic spotlight. Part of their perverse 'Survival of the Fittest' scheme for the planet which they believe will transform the Earth and the Light into the eventual rulers of the Milky Way. Though the Light made a deal to help the Reach take Earth, they have also sabotaged the Reach's efforts. They kept the enhanced meta-genes out of the Reach's hands. They added a neutralizing agent to the Reach's drink so Earth's population would not become servile. They turned public opinion against the Reach and they intentionally allowed the Team access to the Scarab Temple to cleanse Blue and Green Beetle. So you see, any agenda either side imagined they shared was nothing but a carefully crafted illusion. I trust I have shattered that illusion as well as whatever remains of this sorry alliance. Good night.
Black Manta: Kaldur, Kaldur what have you done?
Vandal Savage: He has in death done more to damage my plans than any living creature has wrought in 50,000 years. I'd be impressed, if I wasn't so-
Ambassador: RAAAAGH! You earthlings are a pestilence and a plague! You dare sabotage us? Dare betray US? Have you forgotten who controls the WarWorld? The Light is fortunate that we do not carve up your planet as we speak!
Vandal Savage: That would indeed impress, as I have the WarWorld's crystal key!
Kaldur: That was all I needed to know.
Black Manta: Kaldur, you're...
Kaldur: Alive, yes.
Artemis: If you would? Huh. And I always heard how the "Great One" was such a gentleman.
Vandal Savage: Impossible. Deathstroke killed you both!
"Deathstroke": Just for a little while. After all, I wouldn't want to do any permanent damage...[Deathstroke form shifts revealing it to be Miss Martian who telekinetically holds the sword to Vandal's throat]To my best friends. Not when a little misdirection and Hollywood special effects will do instead.
Kaldur: For we value our true friends, and unlike you, we are not short on them.
[Superboy, Bumblebee and Guardian burst through one end of the cave while Nightwing, Batgirl and Kid flash arrive through the other]
Kid Flash: Hey there Vandy, you miss me?

Kid Flash: I so wanna kiss you now. Or maybe kill you for putting us through all this!
Artemis: Hold that thought. You can decide later, when we're alone.

Black Manta: Ignorant boy! This is not a world, a universe, in which a free man can afford to be soft. I will teach you to be ruthless Kaldur'ahm, even if I must beat that lesson into your skull!
[Black Manta and Kaldur dodge each other's blasts of lasers and water constructs, Kaldur leaps up and creates a swarm of water serpents which Manta destroys with a salvo of rockets. But it allows Kaldur to get in close and he knocks Manta's helmet of and him unconscious with strikes of his water maces]
Kaldur: I believe that was fairly ruthless, father. I hope it made you proud.

Ambassador: Hurry Warrior, we must flee!
Black Beetle: Pathetic. Look at where your machinations have left us.
Ambassador: Free me at once. That is an order!
Black Beetle: Your numerous failures render all orders moot. Under Article 16 of the Reach Acquisition Code, I officially declare you unfit to lead this delegation.
Ambassador: No. NOO!
[Black Beetle frees the Scientist]
Black Beetle: You might still be of some use.

Kaldur: I had hoped to end this tonight but Savage escaped with Klarion as did Black Beetle and the Reach's head scientist. Luthor and Queen Bee never showed and even Ra's al Ghul will no doubt-
Nightwing: Are you kidding me? Kaldur, you won!
Kid Flash: Won? Dude you triumphed!
Artemis: You've crippled the Reach and literally broken the Light in half. Even took down Deathstroke before the summit. And since we holographically recorded the entire deal, we'll be able to use the bad guys' words against them to clear the Justice League. [Beast Boy runs up and hugs Artemis] What was that?
Beast Boy: I'm still just so glad you're alive! And that Aqualad's not a traitor. No more faking anyone's death for at least a year, okay?
Kid Flash: Yeah, seconded.
Kaldur: Agreed.
Nightwing: Kaldur, this has been a good night. Maybe the best we've had since the three of us first took off for Cadmus five-plus years ago.
Kid Flash: C'mon, enjoy the moment my friend. You've earned it.

When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.

Anyone here played the Spider-man 2018 game? Just replaying it, and I wondered what all of you thought of the character interpretations/writing.
Alex (Aldrius)

BISHANSKY - Thanks for sharing that with us. I can definitely imagine Keith David's Aaron sounding a lot like Thailog.
Todd Jensen

TODD> I did.

Also Kate Mulgrew played Tamora: Queen of the Goths and Keith David played Aaron the Moor in a production of Titus Andronicus in Shakespeare In the Park.

Greg Bishansky
""When Demona wipes out humanity, I hope she starts with the Demona Apologists." (Saving them for last so they can grasp the truth is nice too, but too little too late.)" -Matt

Bishansky mentioned seeing Keith David playing Leontes in a production of "The Winter's Tale" once.
Todd Jensen

Of course a lot of the cast most likely have plenty of work in theater, just a quick glance shows Kate Mulgrew was in a production of Othello and Measure for Measure.
When you return to your unobservable but empirically determined dimension of origin--tell them CARL SAGAN sent you.


Incidentally any idea how often Gargoyles cast members if any participated in an adaptation of Shakespeare?

I recall mention of Keith David playing Oberon in A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Plus, in a Disney short also doing a take on it (shown in Mickey Mouse Works episode 11 and later the House of Mouse episode House of Scrooge), Oberon was voiced by John Rhys-Davies.

Plus there was Roddy McDowall playing the part of Duncan Canmore in the 1948 movie Macbeth.



And after her, came jolly June, arrayed
All in green leaves, as he a player were;
Yet in his time, he wrought as well as played,
That by his plough-irons mote right well appear:
Upon a Crab he rode, that him did bear
With crooked crawling steps an uncouth pace,
And backward yode, as bargemen wont to fare
Bending their force contrary to their face,
Like that ungracious crew which feigns demurest grace.

Edmund Spenser, "The Faerie Queene"

Todd Jensen