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Children of Oberon, The
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Todd Jensen writes...
You've mentioned earlier that Merlin isn't considered one of "Oberon's Children" (by which I mean the Third Race, rather than Oberon's biological offspring). I recently began wondering over the reason for that, i.e., what reasons Oberon has for not classifying him as such.
The only other "halflings" we know of in the Gargoyles Universe at present are Fox and Alex, and we know what criteria Oberon had for deciding whether they could be considered "Children of Oberon" or not. He viewed Fox as human rather than Third Race because she had shown no sign of manifesting any magic (at least, at the time of "The Gathering Part One") and Alex as Third Race because he still had the potential of developing magic.
Now, moving back to Merlin; he clearly did learn how to use magic, so obviously Oberon used a different criterion for classifying him as human rather than "Oberon's Children" than he did with Fox. So my question is, what is this different criterion?
(And don't worry; this isn't one of those "trying to trip you up questions" that you mentioned being unhappy with recently. I'm just genuinely curious about this).
Greg responds...
Boy, I must have been really touchy on September 10th.
Let me just say, it's weird to be looking at these questions, asked early in the morning of 9/11, clearly before the events of the day. (Or at least before people became aware of those events.) Puts everything into perspective, you know.
Anyway, Merlin and Oberon have a thorny relationship to say the least. I can't really answer your question in any more detail at this time. I half regret revealing that Oberon was M's dad.
Kelly L Creighton/Kya White Sapphire writes...
I cant find this in the archive, tho I find it hard to believe it hasnt been asked.
1. Do Oberon's Children reproduce in the biological sense? I mean do they actually pick a mate and have offspring?
2. Demoness asked why Mab disliked Titania, and you said its because Mab thought Titiania was a spoiled brat, and beneath Oberon. So was Titania *raised* as a spoiled brat, meaning she had actualy parents, or did she just have a high opinion of herself (in Mab's eyes).
3. Were the Children of Oberon we have seen (banshee, anansi, etc) mostly offspring of Oberon? Or were most of them there before him?
4. What did Mab call them all? Obviously not 'Oberon's Children'. Or am I wrong?
Greg responds...
1. Largely.
2. Not answering this now.
3. Neither.
4. The Children of Mab.
Gipdac writes...
1) Did you ever have plans for the trickster Loki?
2) If so, what are they?
Greg responds...
As I've mentioned before, I'm on the fence about Loki, as he is a character who has been done to death elsewhere. Same with Thor. They may be dead. But I haven't decided. I haven't found a way into the characters that strikes me as unique enough to justify including them in anything but flashbacks.
Anonymous writes...
Why doesn't Anubis look like the Emir when he appeared in the Gathering? What happened?
Greg responds...
The Emir joined his son in death, releasing Anubis.
And by the way, I apologize for that goofy moment in "The Gathering" when it looks like Anubis is laughing.
Anonymous writes...
Do the Children of Oberon know of the Space-Spawn prior to 2198?
Greg responds...
No.
Anonymous writes...
Where did Banshee go after Cuchullain beat her?
Greg responds...
She stayed in Ireland, while she regrouped -- but keeping well out of Rory's way. Eventually she was dragged to Avalon.
Anonymous writes...
Were there any Fay casualties of the Oberon and Mab War? If so care to give a ballpark figure?
Greg responds...
As most of you know, I'm not big on quantifying things that haven't been worked out.
But yes, any war has casualties.
Anonymous writes...
Is Osiris dead in 1996? What about Set?
Greg responds...
I'm not just tossing this stuff out to you. What would I have to gain?
Anonymous writes...
If the Oberon's Children are called the Oberite what exactly were Mab's children called?
Greg responds...
The Children of Oberon were never called the "Oberati". That was a behind the scenes suggestion that I made that some combo of Michael/Brynne/Lydia rejected as sounding too much like an Italian sports car.
Anonymous writes...
What is Banshee doing in 2198?
Greg responds...
Not talking.
Anonymous writes...
Who were Mab¡¯s parents?
Greg responds...
Never & Satisfied.
Anonymous writes...
Was Grandmother the original Thunderbird that inspired the Thunderbird legends?
What was the sea monster that Grandmother turned into in Heritage? Was it a legendary monster?
Greg responds...
1. I don't think so.
2. It was a legendary monster, I beileve.
Anonymous writes...
Why didn¡¯t Banshee kill Bronx and Rory when they climbed out of the pit? Why did she take him back to his home after she kissed him? Why didn¡¯t she do anything to Bronx?
Was Banshee the original Deathworm that inspired the legends or was the original another child of Oberon? If not what was it?
Greg responds...
It would really help if you'd number your questions.
1. There's no one simple answer. But she wanted to avoid waking Rory. An actual attack might have triggered the very thing she feared.
1a. She was trying to put him back to sleep.
2. She said that she didn't perceive him as a real threat.
3. I believe so.
Cha-Cha writes...
1. Who was the centaur at the Gathering?
2. Is Medusa a N.O. or one of Oberon's children?
Because she was at the Gathering and in an older post someone mentioned she was also on New Olympus.
Greg responds...
1. Good question.
2. The Medusa I've given any thought too is a New Olympian. If there was a medusa-like character at the Gathering, I don't recall. But keep in mind that the Children are shape-shifters and can look pretty much like whatever they want.
Anonymous writes...
Is it true that the fay don't have a true form?
If so why can't Puck in his Owen form perform magic while he is able to do it in his Puck form?
Greg responds...
It may be true.
Because becoming Owen isn't a magical act of illusion. It's a magical act of transformation.
Anonymous writes...
By 2198 how many fae are off Avalon?
Care to give a few names?
Greg responds...
Very few.
Puck. Alex.
Anonymous writes...
Are there any other sentient races native to our solar system besides Lost race,Gargoyles,Humans,Fae and New olympians? If so care to list a few?
Greg responds...
If there were, I wouldn't list them. But there aren't. But if there were, I wouldn't list them.
(All this of course ignores our recent discussions about the misuse of the term 'sentient'.)
Anonymous writes...
Is Morgana at the Gathering on Avalon? What about Nimue?
Greg responds...
One is. One isn't.
Gipdac writes...
1) Did Titania ever really have any of the fairy attendants like she did in A Midsummer Night's Dream?
2) If so, what happened to them
3) Are any/all of them still alive?
4) Were any/all of them fae?
(My favorite is Mustard Seed)
Greg responds...
1. Yes.
2. My God, has something happened to them?
3. Far as I know.
4. Most.
Mustard Seed is cool.
Punchinello writes...
I just reviewed what I have written here. It's so formal it's almost offensive. I'm sorry. I don't think one can talk about issues like this without sounding (obtuse? Stuffy? Something like that.) And not a word about Gargoyles.
Let me leave the realm of animal intelligence's for a minute and consider the intelligence of some of the more fantastical characters in your story. The fae. When I think about this kind of (ethereal?) character, these are the kinds of associations that I make.
-The thought of angels moves faster than human thought. (I don't recall where that comes from)
-A four dimensional object or being will cast a three dimensional shadow. (That's an observation Buckminster Fuller made.)
-A being that cannot die will have no concept of death, and certainly will not attach values, positive or negative, to the ending of a life. (This is a condensed and bastardized summary of some of the speculation of extraterrestrial intelligence's that participants of the SETI program publicized.)
I hope some of the above makes sense. My thinking is this. That the content of fae thought/mentality may be fundamentally different from homo sapiens thinking. Not just an accelerated or enhanced analogue of human thought, but structurally different. Our mental world is the emergent condition of innumerable biological systems interacting with one another. I have no reason to conclude that the fae's intelligence emerges from anything reductionist in nature. It is a condition that exists without origin in biology (potentially). Everything that we think of as intelligence rests on an evolutionary foundation of connections to allow us to successfully distinguish between things we can eat and things that will eat us. It would be absurd to think that the fae (who I don't think were subject to natural selection through predation) would have an intelligence structured upon the same principles. Simple alternative concepts like "either or" may not have the same meaning to them. This could go far towards explaining why they are so damned irritating.
My second thought on the matter, in reference to the three dimensional shadow concept, is that the visual representation we get of the fae in the story may be a poor representation of the reality. I use the concept of a hypothetical four dimensional being to illustrate. A two dimensional being could be aware of my presence if I allowed it to, although it would be a simple matter to remove myself from it's perception with a minor movement. However it's awareness could not give it a complete representation of what I am. It could only understand me as a fragment that can be translated into something comprehensible within the context of it's world. I can easily attribute an extra dimensional quality to beings like Oberon and Puck who seem o appear and disappear at will. We might not be able to understand completely, what they are. Only that the portion of them that is represented in three dimensions resembles a group of tall, angular, oddly complexioned people in period costume.
My third observation of the fae, and in particular of Oberon who has demonstrated a dispassionate distance to killing his rivals in certain instances, is that he may have no concept of murder because he may have no concept of death. (Yes I know that he reacted to the iron bell in such a way that would indicate it was harmful to him. Even lethal.) However, even if he were to express a concept of death we would not be able to be certain that his concept was anything like our concept. Does death mean an end for him? If it does not, then the gravity we attach to it may be lost on him and the other fae.
I think my point is that while it would certainly not be appropriate to think of a creature like this in human terms, i'm not even certain you can extrapolate "human" from him. There could be creatures, so far removed from human experience that it would be impossible. Of course, the associations that I make with the fae are not going to be the same ones that you make. Your concept of them may fall within human experience. You have other creatures though. Your space spawn. They would certainly have been subject to mental dispositions grounded in a different biology. We're conditioned with the genetic remainders of our hunter gatherer ancestors. They would be conditioned with something else. I dont know what. Something spawny probably.
Greg responds...
Spawny. I like that.
Play with these ideas:
1. I believe that Oberon's Children evolved from the Will-O-the-Wisp.
2. I believe that they can die, as completely or not as any human. But they can't die of old age, unless they stubbornly insist on maintaining a mortal form until it kills them. They are therefore, acutally, technically mortal themselves, but don't truly comprehend mortality (if that makes sense). So they like to pretend they are fully immortal, fully untouchable. (Well, that's a generalization, really. Individuals may vary.)
3. I don't necessarily believe that we have seen the true form of any of Oberon's Children. We have seen 'preferred forms', but not anything that isn't just as much of a guise as any other shape they've taken on.
4. When they transform into a mortal of whatever species -- as opposed to just taking on the glamour of a mortal -- they are bound by all the rules of that species, save ONE. They can transform back.
5. I don't find them as irritating as you seem to.
Anyway, play with those five notions and get back to me.
Demoness writes...
Can the Third Race bleed in their mortal forms, or forms that are not their "normal" form?
Why i ask this is because in "Heritage" when the Gargs are attacking Grandmother in her Thunderbird and Sea Monster form I could have sworn that the claw marks they inflicted on her were red with blood.
I just want to make sure that this theory is correct.
Greg responds...
Yes. When they transform into mortals they take on all aspects of that mortality -- save for the ability to change back.
Keep in mind however, that sometimes they don't transform, they just create a 'glamour' or illusion to fool people.
Anonymous writes...
Are there any fay as powerful as Oberon and Mab? Care to list a few?
Greg responds...
No or No.
Anonymous writes...
Who exactly were Coyote's parents?
Greg responds...
Reggie and Midge.
Anonymous writes...
Who exactly were Raven's parents?
Greg responds...
Jughead and Moose.
Anonymous writes...
What are the names of the centaur, winged horse and giants that we saw in the Gathering?
Greg responds...
Don't know.
Lord Sloth writes...
Who was in charge of death before Anubis? He's of the younger generation of fae, isn't he, so he wasn't around from the begining.
Greg responds...
What gave you the idea that he's 'of the younger generation'? And I never said he was 'in charge of death'.
Anonymous writes...
Does the Lady of the Lake have any biological children? Have you mentioned the name of any of her children on Askgreg?
Greg responds...
YOu are now officially making me sleepy.
Demoness writes...
1. Are there any other Oberon's Laws besides the "non-interfernce", "forking over talismens willingly", "Avalon Clan can stay" and "Goliath's Clan's immunity"?
2. If yes to above, what are a couple of those other laws?
3. Were there any placed before Oberon became King?
4. What are a couple of those?
Greg responds...
1. I'm sure there are.
2. No cheese on Saturdays. No littering.
3. No. Mab likes cheese.
4. There was something about smoke alarms in the lavatories at the Palace, but now I'm blanking.
Demoness writes...
In "Future Tense" at the end of the illusion Elisa yells "No, not now!" and the illusion disappears and she becomes Puck. So my question is:
1. What was Puck referring to when he said that?
b. Was it Oberon's Law because Goliath realized that what he was experiancing was an illusion and the law dictates that Oberon's Children can not interfer in mortal lives and thus so forced the illusion to end?
c. Or was it another law that has to do with mortals willingly handing over talismens to Oberon's Children, kinda saying that if your intentions are discovered the game ends?
Greg responds...
1. That Goliath had figured him out when he was so close.
b. More or less.
c. More or less.
Demoness writes...
I just watched "Heritage" and I just noticed something. I know you've said before that your colored blind and sorry to bringing up colors again...but I'm curious.
1. How come in "Heritage" Raven and Grandmother glow a blue aura when using their magic while others glow a green aura? Such as Oberon, Titania, the Wierd Sisters, and Puck.
I think Odin glowed white, Anasi-blue, Banshee-white, Anubis-black, and Lady of the Lake-blue.
2. Does this coloration have anything to do with their connections (meaning Anubis=death)?
3. Does it have to do with positions in their culture? Like warriors in the warrior caste, tricksters in the tricksters caste, royalty, servents, etc etc?
Greg responds...
If we were consistent, then sure. But I'm not sure we were.
Demoness writes...
"As to Oberon's Children, you've seen one of their ancestors on the series. "- Greg W.
Who is this person you speak of that is a ancestor of Oberon's Children?
Greg responds...
No person. (Didn't I confirm the correct answer to this already?)
I realize that when you asked this question, I may not have answered it yet. But didn't you see that the question had already been asked in the queue ahead of you?
Alex "Cyclonus" Bishansky writes...
I'm not sure if this was asked before or not.
In "Cloud Fathers" the Kachina Dance must have been performed many times before, how come when Peter Maza danced in it, Coyote developed this bond with him?
Greg responds...
It was 'rarely' performed even in Peter's day. But I believe Coyote developed a bond with all who danced the part of Coyote.
Sapphire writes...
Dear Greg
Earlier you said that some of the fay have converted to human religions. Can you tell me the religion of the following fay
Oberon
Titiana
Puck
Coyote
Anansi
Banshee
Odin
Lady of the Lake
Nought
Pegasus
Grandmother
Raven
Anubis
Greg responds...
I don't think that's exactly what I said.
And I can't believe you haven't gotten the fact that I don't respond well to laundry lists.
Lord Sloth writes...
Heya Greg
I'm just 17, and I got the tootsie rool thing right away.
Anyway, I read some more unsatisfactory responces so I'll just restate some of them.
1)For the ill met by moonlight questons you didn't answer one cause I called Angela "Angie", But why should that keep you from answering? Anyway the question again is:
2)When Goliath, Gabreil and ANGELA fall into the water being filled with lava, why isn't it too hot to survive? If you don't know, just say so.
3)And I didn't understand your answer about Oberon giving Goliath immunity to his magic. Didn't he take that away in the Gathering, or does he just temporarily set it aside when it suits him? b) Is Goliath and clan immune to his arts by the end of the Gathering?
thank you.
P.S.and, you right. I have a very dirty mind, so I'll just imagine Brooklen says what I want him to.
Greg responds...
1. Sloth. Let's start by saying I don't actually owe you an answer to anything. If I'm not in the mood, I may just try to be funny. I may fail. But I could use a bit less 'tude, dude.
2. Like here, for example.
3. He never took the immunity away, he just interpreted the edict. He never uses his magic DIRECTLY against Goliath or the clan.
b. Depends on who's doing the defining. Since it's Oberon, he was, is and will always be immune.
P.S. I've forgotten what this refers too, but maybe that's just as well.
Kelly L Creighton/Kya White Sapphire writes...
Qs on Fae:
1. Is it Fay or Fae?
2. The symbol on the periodic table for iron is Fe. any connection?
3. Ive noticed (any i know youre colorblind) that whenever the fae change forms they tend to stick to their own hair color. Titania/Anastasia red. Weird Sisters. Puck/Owen blonde/white. Oberon white. Now do you attribute this to:
a. they like their own appearance, and so make their alternate form look as much like their normal self as possible OR
b. (less likely) they have restrictions on their shape shifting abilities
Greg responds...
1. It's Children of Oberon or Oberon's Children.
2. To what?
3. You're stretching things with Puck which throws off your premise. They do what they want. But they are vain, generally.
Oberon writes...
If a mortal askes a Child of Oberon for assistance does Oberon's law still apply?
Greg responds...
Largely, no.
Kelly L Creighton/Kya White Sapphire writes...
"As to Oberon's Children, you've seen one of their ancestors on the series. "
AHH~ THE TORTURE! come on, a hint! oh please oh please?!
Greg responds...
Will-O-the-Wisp.
Todd Jensen writes...
So we've seen one of the ancestors of the fay in the series? Do you mean the Will-o-the-Wisp in "Pendragon"? (To be perfectly fair, it was Aris Katsaris who suggested the idea first, but it made sense to me).
Greg responds...
Do I want to reveal this?
Not really.
But, hey for you and Aris -- Yes.
(Keep in mind, we're talking about evolutionary ancestors. I'm not literally saying that the Wisp in Pendragon is Mab's grandfather or anything.)
Vashkoda writes...
Puck said that he couldn't take the Phoenix Gate from Goliath--Goliath had to "fork it over". Is the same true for other Avalonian magical objects? I may be remembering this incorrectly, but didn't Odin physically attack Goliath and try to take back the Eye? And does this rule only apply to Children of Avalon? If so, it would explain why the Weird Sisters had to use Demona and MacBeth to steal the talismans for them (were you consciously doing this so as not to break the rule you would establish later about the Gate in "Future Tense"?)
Greg responds...
Odin may have been an exception, as the EYE could arguably belong to him.
But the general rule of non-interference prevented Puck or the Sisters from just magically or otherwise stealing anything themselves.
Todd Jensen writes...
How did Raven get around Oberon's non-intervention edict when he laid Queen Florence Island waste in "Heritage"?
Greg responds...
There was pattern and precedent established. From Raven's point of view it was Natsilane who was abandoning the island. That left it in Raven's hands.
Vashkoda writes...
*lol* After reading your latest batch of answers, you've reminded me why I had you write that message on the back of my Thailog card.
I'd asked you who was a changeling other than Morgana, and you answered, "Nimue". I thought only the elf child that took the baby's place was called a changeling, but I guess you're using the name both ways (which makes sense). So let me rephrase my questions and ask, "Have any changelings other than Morgana and Nimue appeared in the series? Will any appear in the spinoffs you've planned?"
It was nice seeing you again, Greg!
Greg responds...
Ever?
Pyro X writes...
Greg;
The Native Peoples of NA came to NA VIA the Bering Strait some thousands of years ago.
1) When Oberon dispatched his "family" to live among mortals, did Raven make his way imediatly to Q.F.I off Canada?
2)Did Raven "take on" the persona of "The Raven" based on Native legend, or was he always "Raven"?
3) As you have said, you never know if that is Pucks true form (As the in the elvish form). Does this, as well, apply to the Other children? Was that Raven's true form?
4) Does Raven have a true form?
5) Did the "Raven" legend spring from "Raven" himself?
6) What WAS that thing Grandmother turned into??? (the thing with the weird mouth).
Thanks!
Greg responds...
Pyro,
Your initial premise is scientifically accepted. But I think many Native American Tribes disagree. It doesn't fit their legends and holy stories. For the purposes of Gargoyles, I'm not taking sides. All things are true.
1. Keep in mind that what Oberon mainly did was to banish the Children from Avalon and insist that they not interfere with mortal lives. It's not like Raven had never been among mortals up to that point.
2. He's Raven.
3. It applies to ALL the other children. Including Raven.
4. Do any of them?
5. See question 2.
6. I assume you mean Thunderbird. (She says that in the episode.)
Oberon writes...
In your Gargoyles 2198 (i think that's the date) summary, you said that aliens would attack the earth.
1) If earth was destroyed, wht would happen to Avalon?
2) Doesn't Puck's protection duty allow him to use magic to save Alexander from the Space Spawn?
3) I know Oberon's pompus and all, but would he reall just sit back and watch the entire human race (as well as Puck) be destroyed (Even with Oberon's law, many fay could indirectly help)?
Greg responds...
1. Earth's not destroyed. Leastways not in 2198.
2. It would have. But it happened too fast.
3. I'm not confirming or denying that Oberon's even still alive.
Anonymous writes...
Are you going to explore the stories of Ymir, Tiamat and Gaea?
Greg responds...
Eventually everything.
Sloth writes...
Was the first hound of Ulster a gar-beast?
Has the Banshee/Molly seen the Wizard of Oz and did she like it?
Greg responds...
1. Yes. Unless you mean Cu Chullain himself.
2. Who wouldn't?
Demoness writes...
Garg 2198
1. Will the Fae ever get involved in the resistance? (Other then Puck)
2a. What would the Fae's opinions be on Earth being conquered?
2b. Oberon's and Titania's opinions?
3. Would Titania be extremly upset, angry, 'beyond the no return type angry', or unconcerned that Alex has been...'kidnapped' by the Space-Spawn?
As you probably noticed with my previous questions, I like Oberon and Titania. :)
Greg responds...
1. Not initially, for a good reason. Everyone gets involved one way or another eventually.
2. Whaddaya think?
3. I'm not confirming or denying Titania's continued existence in 2198.
I like 'em too.
Anonymous writes...
Our ancestors are apes and our distant ones are a bunch of rodents that resemble lemurs or rats. The ancestors of the gargoyles are lizards and dinosaurs. Who exactly are the ancestors of the fay? Blobs of energy or something else entirely?
Greg responds...
All primates have common ancestors. It's not quite the same thing as saying OUR ancestors are apes.
All gargates have common ancestors. Calling those common ancestors dinosaurs is only accurate in a very general sense.
As to Oberon's Children, you've seen one of their ancestors on the series.
Sloth writes...
How is life for Katherne, Tom and their "eggs" now that they live in the smae castle with the world's supply of fey? I would think it might be very hectic, dangerus and "sub-ter-fuge-ic" with all the tricksters, evil banshees and gods. Do you?
Greg responds...
A famous curse goes something like: "May you live in interesting times."
Such is life in Oberon's palace.
Anonymous writes...
Who is Anubis's father Todd says it's Osiris (making him a bastard), but Roger Lancelyn Green says it's Set? So who exactly is he in the Gargoyles Universe?
Greg responds...
Not going into that now. Mostly because I haven't done enough research recently to have made my decision.
Anonymous writes...
Are the Children of Mab literally descended from Mab or is it a metaphor casting Mab as the ruler/parent and the fay as the kids?
Greg responds...
Metaphor. Though Oberon is literally Mab's son.
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