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I love the dvd! The quality is great, and the comentary alone makes it worth while. Greg, Frank, and Keith did an excellent job giving entertaining tid bits and information behind the scenes. I especially love how they gave some general comments about the series (warning to first timers, there are spoilers! At LEAST watch the Awakening eps before watching the commentary, or it will spoil a very nice, complex plot). I wish there had been more on the Gathering of the Gargoyles. But seeing just enough of it really makes me want to drop everything and go to one! Also, the showing of Greg's pitch of the show was cool---loved the drawings! I can't wait for season 2 to come out...any idea when that could happen? Thanks all!
Season Two, Volume One is already out. Volume Two is not scheduled. SPREAD THE WORD!
How do you try to tell the stores in your area that Gargoyles is a popular holiday item?
By making them sell out :P Proud buyer of 5 copies of Gargoyles dvd in my area of Columbus and making three retailers have to order more.
That's great. Thanks!
My DVD review, copied and pasted from the Gargoyles X message board.
I FINALLY got to see it last night, both the episodes and the features, and I thought I'd drop in my two cents.
THE PICTURE - It was very crisp, and well animated. I actually found it to be darker and more developed then the reruns on TV, which also made it a little scarier. The darkness factor in the episodes made the animation very well polished, considering that these episodes are over 10 years old and that alone was enough to make me drooling like a rabid Cujo on PCP. LOL.
THE SOUND - It was very wicked, listening to Bronx's growling or the stone cracking and etc. on Dolby Digital. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and look forward to my next viewing (or hearing, in this category.) with great relish.
THE VOICE ACTING - Anyone who's heard the actors on TV (and who hasn't?) can expect the same stuff here, only better, given that it's on, like I said, Dolby.
THE FEATURES - The Commentary was fun, cool, and informative, all rolled up into one. Keith David and Greg Weisman, in particular, talking through "Awakening" alone was enough to please the fanboy part of my otherwise dark and brooding soul. The Gathering featurette was also a pleasent little ditty, with interviews, episode footage, and more. I personally would've liked more input from the other VAs, however, though Keith David did have some camera time, which semi-made up for it. Seeing the activities at the G2003 was bitching and I am looking forward to this summer's Vegas offing even more.
All in all, I was proud to have purchased this DVD, it was worth the cash it took out of my debit card, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Season 2. Come on Disney! Bring it on! Show me the season 2 goods!
Yeah, that's all I've got to say.
Looking forward to possibly meeting you in Vegas, Greg!
Unfortunately, Keith and I were the only guests at G2004, so that's all you could have Voice Actor-wise in the Gathering featurette. But hopefully, you enjoyed the Season Two Volume One DVD which included interviews with Jeff Bennett, Bill Faggerbakke, Edward Asner, Thom Adcox, Brigitte Bako, myself, Frank Paur and Michael Reaves.
As you ask, so shall you receive. Although, not so much a review, as a reaction.
Amazon.com did a great job with delivery this close to Christmas - they predicted the 17th at the very earliest. I *had* planned on sleeping in this morning, but having the DVD in my hands meant getting dressed as quickly as possible and sitting in front of the TV.
The Gathering documentary was awesome! I loved that I could sit there and go "I know her/him!" Not to mention "Look - there's me!" ^_^
The episodes themselves .. well, I was a whole mass of 'squee!' I have missed watching Gargoyles *so much*, the DVD is a dream come true. The opening theme gave me goosebumps and Goliath's heart-broken "My Angel of the Night" ... brr.
I did notice how clean the animation and sound were, they've certainly done a wonderful job.
So, now many of us begging on our knees would it take for Disney to release Season 2? :D
Fewer knees. More dollars, I'm afraid.
This is more of a comment than a question, and considering Greg is still a couple of years behind, chances are that my post won't get reviewed until some time much much later (ah, this is where a Phoenix Gate comes in handy). Anyway, so it feels like writing something for a time capsule, but anyway...
I just want to rave about the DVD! I purchased mine at Amazon and it arrived 2 days later when the DVD came out. Anyway, what an awesome purchase.....all the episodes in the first season in the palm of my hands and hoping by the time this is read that Season Two DVD would've come out...wait, better yet, one of those Gargoyles sequels to already be airing on Cartoon Network or out on yet another DVD! Anyway, thanks for this and keep up the good work! Thanks for keeping our imaginations alive!
Thank you for buying it.
My DVD review:
Well, I liked it, of course!
I mean, it's great having this level of clarity in both visual and audio. And of course, the commentary track is great. But, as someone else pointed out, there is just SO MUCH you guys are trying to say, and so little time for you guys to say it in. One of you is expounding on one particular subject, while another has to chime in about what's happening on screen (as with your little "Nice mask" moment, Greg). I really wish the folks at Disney Home Video had given you guys a commentary for all thirteen episodes.
The Gathering featurette: Great, now I have another reason to feel bummed about not being able to go (oh, the trials of being a non-union actor trying to catch a break in LA). Since things have been picking up a little for me, though, I might be able to come to the Gathering in Vegas.
The Original video pitch: Words cannot express how glad I am to see this on here. The original concepts for Hudson and Bronx, Elisa's former last name, the pic of Goliath on the subway car, and the last picture of the kid in Goliath's shadow...I remembered those from the Gathering 2001, and I always wanted to have my own copy. Now I do!
And, of course, the presentation itself. They did a great job with the box art and the menus. The transfer from day to night and back again is well done and timed to make a perfect loop with Carl Johnson's score.
Pass on my kudos to the folks at Disney Home Video for their work here. I'd track them down and thank them myself if they'd given us the other eight episodes worth of commentary.
Yeah, I'd have loved to do commentary on all thirteen. Had a list of commenters all planned out for each episode, too. Oh, well.
R.I.P. Edward Albert.
Edward did a voice for us on a couple of episodes on Max Steel. I won't pretend I knew him well, but he was a good and talented guy on those two occasions. The son of Green Acres Eddie Albert, Edward was a talented actor and activist. He'll be missed.
hi i was wondering if you have production images(frount back view of the character sketches)or good pics of certain characters from gargolyes like coyote robot from the epsiode "upgrade" and "grief" and the cybots robots and walk-a-bout nano technology robot desighns,if you are willing i would be very gratfull:}
I don't have any production images. But if you ask in the s8 comment room, someone there should be able to direct you to a website that does.
My DVD Review:
One word: FABULOUS. Only two problems:
1. Season Two isn't out yet.
2. Would have liked to seen commentary on more episodes - especially "Enter Macbeth." When (not if)Season Two comes out, I would love to see commentary on "City of Stone." I would love to know who came up with the idea of onterweaving bits of Shakespeare's "Macbeth," what is known of the real Macbeth, and Demona's story. Also commentary from other actors, like Jonathan Frakes, Marina Sirtis, or especially Brent Spiner for his first appearance as Puck.
Loved the extras though that were given. I have never been able to attend a Gathering of the Gargoyles and it was nice to see what one was like. I also liked seeing how you pitch an idea to a studio. Additional Extras that would just be ising on the cake would be to see the pitches that have been declined for some of the spinoff series and cut sequences, even in storyboard format [if they can be found].
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
Those other pitches are viewable -- at every Gathering. And of course, "City of Stone" did get a commentary on the Season Two, Volume One DVD.
I know about your policy concerning reading fan fiction. However, as a matter of curiosity, if the TGS staff were to prepare a formal statement on their site that explicitly gives you permission to use the content for any possible future Gargoyles production, would that make a difference?
As far as what you've heard, how have the sales of the DVD going? Do they seem good enough to catch Disney's interest? BTW, I've noticed that the DVD is selling much better on Amazon.ca in Canada than in the American parent company. Any thoughts on why that might be?
No thoughts. And no actual numbers from Disney. Those, I'm told, are confidential.
In response to a question Todd Jensen asked in July of 2003 that you responded to December 14 of 2004, about the spell of the Magus being broken when the castle rose above the clouds... it seemed to me that the only way this would make sense is if it WAS in fact necessary for the gargoyles to be in the castle when it was above the clouds for the spell to break. Maybe the terms of the spell were something to this effect, implying that the gargoyles home had to rise above the clouds? and in order for it to be considered their home they've got to be there? I mean, otherwise, seems pretty arbitrary just to include a clause about some random castle in the Grimmorum.
If the spell would be broken when the castle rose above the clouds no matter where the gargoyles were in relation to it, this creates a number of problems. a) assuming that Xanatos did not somehow magically assemble the entire Caslte Wyvern atop the world's tallest building in a single afternoon, wouldn't they have woken up at some point during the construction? b) if you're going to say, "well no, the entire castle had to be assembled for the spell to be broken"... I say to that.. what constitutes the "entire" castle? It also seems entirely implausible that they would be able to assemble the whole thing exactly brick for brick... probably some got worn away, stolen or whatever over 1000 years or so. and the caslte isn't a perfect replica anyway unless of course Prince Malcolm installed the elevators and the secret motorized compartments for storing laser guns back in 994 AD.
At any rate, it only really makes sense if somehow there was in fact some truth to Xanatos' lie, and that the gargoyles DID in fact need to be sitting on top of Castle Wyvern for the spell to break. Maybe after being frozen for so long they're considered part of the arhitecture.
I'm sorry, what's the bone of contention here?
I have, and love, the Gargoyles Season 1. I got it the day it came out! (Actually, 3 days before it came out, I snuck it out of the store where I work and paid for it on release day.) It's just glorious. The care was put into this that made the show so great in the first place. I love the commentary, I only wish there were 5 times more. This site provides the best commentary of all, but to have Greg's rants right over the scenes grounds the observations very well. I've been watching these with my wife and it's like torture. Even the smallest things have a deeper meaning and greater significance (see that boy Tom, he's not just a throwaway character, he'll be back later; that's not the last we'll see of Hakon; you'll never believe what becomes of Jackal; and Owen...my Lord!) and I want to connect all the dots, but it would be cruel to blow the surprise. What would be even crueler is if we never got a chance to share the surprises, so I'll get down on my knees now and beg Disney to put together Season 2. And don't worry, my money will be where my mouth is. Such beautiful storytelling shouldn't be buried in a vault. Such wonderful wisdom should be allowed to touch people. I had a woman today in the book store where I work ask for a copy of the Jeffrey Robbins quotation on books I have posted: "The written word is all that stands between memory and oblivion. Without books as our anchors, we are cast adrift, neither teaching nor learning. They are windows on the past, mirrors on the present, and prisms reflecting all possible futures. Books are lighthouses erected in the dark sea of time."
It's cool you posted that. I can't remember if it was Lydia or Brynne who came up with that (or both). It's pretty keen, huh?
My DVD Review
First let me tell you of my "fun" search for the DVD. I had pre-ordered it through my local Blockbuster 2 weeks ahead of release date. All seemed well enough. I went there December 7th and they couldn't find my order, my form, nothing. And they weren't even selling it on the shelf. I'd have to wait for another 2 weeks to get it. So I rushed over to my Wal-Mart. They didn't have it either. It was 2 days later before I got a chance to go to Daytona. Circuit City didn't have it. But Best Buy did. One last copy. Then 2 days later, Wal-Mart in my town got about 20 copies. Frustration!
Anyways, onto the review...
I had seen the coverart online and loved it from the moment I saw it. I was suprised Disney didn't print their name on the front cover though. I liked how the gold banners pointed out it's anniversary and it was 2-discs. Which is often an eye catcher. And the cover itself is beautifu;. The purple-gray Goliath was great. Unlike the VHS Heroes Awaken cover, this DVD cover did not soften the look of the show. The VHS cover could have been decieving to some who figured it for a light-hearted children's show. This cover respected the show. The back cover too was nice. I was expecting screenshots of the show, but it was respectful in a way. And it listed the bonus features, critic acclaim, and a little summary. Very nice.
I liked the insert, using the old pictures from The Hunted and Force of Goliath VHS. And it fit well with the cover art. The DVD discs themselves were all nice. And nice to have the episodes listed straight on the discs.
Pop in the DVDs, skip the previews, and go right to some great menus. Again, respectful of the series. They looked great. And the sound was perfect too. I was shocked frankly at the menus. Most menus don't jump out at me, I really don't care to look at them. But these were perfect and eye catching. I also like the moments when you choose and you get a little bit of different characters. The video itself for each episode was crisp and beautiful. Better then I ever saw on TV even. The sound was great as well. It was wonderful to have each episode uncut. Disney had originally cut the egg scenes out of the Heroes Awaken VHS, because they never planned to release season 2. Seeing the egg scenes again, gives me hope that they will. Even for those who never saw the series before have to wonder about the eggs. Even though Xanatos said they were gone. He lied a lot afterall, so it's only natural to think he lied about the eggs. It just gives me a lot of hope since they included stuff that would come out later in the series, perhaps they may just bring season 2 out.
I LOVED the Gathering feature. That was so well done. The interviews intercut with the show were excellent. And again, respectful of the series. They taped a lot of stuff. They included so much. It was great! I wasn't expecting them to go that far with it.
Greg's pitch was also fun. Nice to see the history some more. And be refreshed on stuff I had forgotten. I also never saw some of that concept art. Very interesting and neat!
Commentary was great! Most of the stuff I knew, but it was nice to hear them talk about it again.
All in all, one of the best, if not THE best DVDs I ever have owned. I plan to buy more copies for Christmas gifts and to donate to local organizations. :)
Thanks, Siren. I'm glad you liked it and that you went to so much trouble to get it. It is frustrating how hard it can be to find the disks.
Glad to see that we can post again . . . I got the DVD on Tuesday Premire!!!!
I was so happy!
Went over to Best Buy to buy it. Turns out, my little brother, 10 years old, today, was the won to find it. They were in a box somewhere in the 'TV Shows on DVD' aisle.
We politely asked a worker there to properly display the boxed set in all it's glory. Unfortunatley, I don't know if they ever did. :I
I read the back cover for the first time. It said it all, surprisingly. "The victems of Human betrayal" Humans? Betraying Gargoyles? To the unwise ear, that sounds ridiculous, and that those who read it must surely see how could perfect humans do evil to 'monsters.'
Hey, that's just who I am.
I saw the commentary in the Pilot episodes. (Isn't cool that "Gargoyles" has more than one pilot episode?) I loved how you (as in Greg, Frank, and Keith) mentioned every little thin we loved about the show, and the quirks that cam ealong with it. "Bronx kicks A**, or tail, as the case is!"
I also never truly realized the TRUE signifigance of Goliath asking to join the others in stone sleep. I never knew that he meant to commit suicide, but now that makes it all the more meaningful. It also reminds me of the Demona's anguish when she sees Goliath that way in City of Stone Part I, where she cries and kisses Goliath, not even trying to find a way to wake him.
I also loved the dog joke. Once an actor, now on the streets . . . cliche', huh?
I am glad that Carl Johnson also got the recongition he deserves. I mean, hard not to, right? Everytime the comentary began, you gave praise to the man who came up with that "BUMMMMM!! BUMMMMM!! BA BU BU BUM BUMMM BA BA BUMMM!! Epic indeed.
But it was truly a rewarding thing to see the show on DVD at last.
"I always survive" -- Demona, "Temptation" That is how this fandom is. No matter how hard we hit the ground, we always come back alive!
AND WE LIVE AGAIN!!!!!
Onward to Season II !!!!!!
We do indeed live again!
And thanks for mentioning Carl and his amazing score!
My first reaction to the little box from amazon.com arriving was a childish giddiness of having some great prize finally in my grabby little hands. My first disappointment was opening the container up and seeing that the first disk had come loose either in shipping or sometime prior and had been rattling around inside. On closer inspection of the case itself, I'm a bit disappointed in the construction of it, as it is very easy for the discs to slide loose and get damaged. Luckily for me, there wasn't any trouble with it, even if the first disc did get a few scratches.
The gathering footage was a great addition, and really interesting for someone like myself who has never gone. Of course, I went through the special features first, and then went back and re-watched the entire show. It probably would have been better to have some chapter breaks within the episodes, as I had to fast forward through the intro each time. I did encounter a technical glitch of some sort while playing the DVD on my laptop. There was quite a bit of jumpiness to the opening of the DVD, but a good cleaning of it seemed to fix it fine. Perhaps a balance issue?
Away from the more technical aspects, Gargoyles was very close to what I remembered of it. Seeing it again was very much like seeing it for the first time. With the DVD quality and my laptop, I was able to see a lot more details, especially differences between various animation companies that did different episodes. The sound was amazing, and I was able to pick up on a lot of little sounds that I missed as a child.
Overall, I'm very happy with the DVD, although not so happy with the quality of the discs or their packaging.
Sorry about the technical problems. I haven't had any of those problems with my copy, but...
The sound work is great, isn't it? We used a number of different animation studios on the series, with differing levels of quality, but we always used Advantage Audio on the sound, and the folks there -- particularly Music Editor Marc Perlman, Sound Effects Editor Paca Thomas and mixers Bill, Jim, Melissa and Ray -- all did amazing work, which I'm glad the DVD brings out.
Gargoyles DVD Review
Hi there Greg,
I read that you wanted DVD reviews for the new Gargoyles DVD… So here goes…
I have been waiting a very long time for Gargoyles to be released on DVD. I am very excited and hope that this DVD will sell well. I wish Disney would of advertised this DVD more though… Maybe some TV commercials? I have met people who love Gargoyles, but don't keep up with the Gargoyles news on the internet, and they would of have had no idea it is on DVD now without me telling them.
This DVD is awesome though, thank you Disney for releasing it. The quality is great, and I love the digital surround sound. I never heard Gargoyles sound so well. And it's great to have some bonus features. I really like the audio commentary Greg. And the DVD is nicely made… I really like the animated menu, and when you go to certain things on the DVD how it shows the Gargoyles doing something cool, like growling, hissing, etc. All the episodes are unedited… What more could a fan ask for? I even got my friend to buy a copy, and he has never seen even one episode before! I told him about this show, why I loved it so much and what made it so great to me. I knew he would like it. And after watching the DVD, he loves the show. He asked me if I wanted to go to the Gathering with him, and I am so excited! I have been wanting to go to a Gargoyle Gathering for years, but no one ever wanted to go with me. There are so many fans out there that haven't been able to go to a Gathering. I have been spreading the word for the DVD… I at least got one friend to buy a copy who never saw the show before then, and I turned him into a fan. I hope Disney releases the second season on DVD, I really think the second season only gets better. Greg, I know you have heard this a thousand times, but there has never been another show like this to me… And I really do miss it. I miss seeing new episodes, new stories, to continue this wonderful series.
I am a 19 year old girl, I have been a fan since 1995 or 1996 I believe. (No unfortunately I didn't become a fan right at the beginning) This has been my favorite show since then, and I really don't think any show will replace it, ever. My friend that bought a DVD really wants to see the second season now… I hope that the second season will be released on DVD! Greg… You don't know me, I only posted a few times at "Ask Greg" over the years, but this upcoming summer you will probably get at least two more people coming to the Gathering. (My friend and I) What more can I say, this DVD is awesome and I am so happy it is finally here. I look forward to season two on DVD, and hopefully more! You have a great show here Disney, don't stop now!
So Audra, did you make it to the Gathering?
Greg asked to post DVD reviews here, so that's what this is --
I've never posted to Ask Greg before (any questions I might have had about the series were very much answered, and I couldn't think of any more), but I've been reading it consistently for maybe 2 years now!
I watched all the extra features. I spread out the 5 commentaries over 5 nights so that I could make it last. Sigh, now it's over.
I wish there were more commentaries. They get so addictive, and I didn't want them to end. They were VERY very good commentaries. Non stop talking, obviously you (Greg) has a LOT to say about the show (obviously), and there were no long dead spots like in so many other commentaries I own. It was inspiring for you to sound so excited talking about the show, none of the spark has gone down at all. It was also just very funny to hear Keith David on the commentaries. It wasn't interesting or informative, just kind of funny.
The pitch to Disney is an incredible thing to have on the DVD, and way more than I was expecting. It was adorable to hear you describing the show and the characters. I don't mean adorable in a bad way, it was just really sweet, like someone telling a children's story at bedtime or something. Except with more explosions and stuff.
The feature about The Gathering was fun and interesting, though I felt weird watching it. Maybe cause I'm not ULTRA-Obsessed with the show (just normal obsessed) enough to wear costumes and stuff (I wanted to go to the Gathering in NYC but did not have the money). It was nice to see. I would have preferred to see more stuff with you/Greg at the Gathering and I was also hoping to catch some of those inside things that are Gathering-only, oh well. BUT all in all it was a good way to let people (and Disney!) know how much the show means to a lot of people.
I'm so glad to have all these episodes on DVD. And I WANT MORE!!! MOOOORE!!! Season 2 will be like a million discs but I WANT IT! And more commentaries!
Hope you found Season Two, Volume One, Jordan.
My DVD Review.
I've already posted several thoughts I had on the DVD so I'll be brief here. Decent transfer. Picture not perfect but it looks good enough even blown up on my 103" screen so that's good news. Sounds much, much better than my copy-of-a-copy-from-cable VHS versions, another plus. Commentary was cool but it sounded like you still had stuff left to say even after five episodes.. so why not extend it out to cover the whole series, maybe even bring in some other people on the creative team or some other voice talent on different episodes and have them guest comment like Keith did. A lot of commentary tracks on movies or TV series run out of steam after the first 45 minutes or so and then listening to the rest becomes repetitive and boring but it sounded like you could have kept going so why stop? Extras were alright, I already mentioned the bad flashbacks the Gathering footage gave me, the original show pitch was interesting to see, wish that there was more stuff like that but I realize there may not be more stuff like that. If Disney gets you more involved on the next DVD maybe you can put in some more extras like the Bad Guys thing that you did at the Gathering or whatever else you can come up with to help expand and flesh out either the genesis of the show or the unrealized portion of your Master Plan. Chapter breaks would have been really nice. More extras would have been nice. Better packaging would be nice. "SEASON 2 COMING SOON!" in big bold letters on the back of the box would have been nice. But ultimately I'm just happy that it is out and I own a copy... Season 3 was terrible, season 2 had some great shows but was at times hit-and-miss and the world tour was boring.... but season 1 is solid gold and I loved every minute of this DVD.
I would have loved to have done more commentaries and brought in more of the cast and crew to do it. But BVHE only budgeted (originally) for two episodes worth of commentary. (And that's just the production cost -- all of commenTATORS were commenTATING for free.) I convinced them to do five episodes worth to cover the entire pilot, but I could not convince them to do even one more ep, let alone all thirteen.
what is with people that like Buffy so much? Is the show really that great if you watch it all the way through? Every individual episode that I've seen has been, on its own, just plain terrible. Cheesiness abounds, bad jokes, very poorly coregraphed action sequences with a very unconvincing lead- both in action sequences and regular acting but especially in action sequences, vampires that aren't scary or cool or intimidating or in any way interesting who die in seconds to some waifish looking little high school brat (c'mon guys... Paul "Pee Wee Herman" Reubens in the original more-appropriately-titled-because-it-was-a-comedy movie was more threatening than some of these throw-aways), corny special effects, oh, and John Ritter as an evil robot. What is there to like here, seriously? You're obviously a huge fan, Greg, as your geekily obsessive Buffy character lists prove. Maybe you can shed some light.
To Buffy's credit, I haven't seen any episodes that were as bad as some from The Goliath Chronicles (A Bronx Tale, the one with the cloned clan and little Anton- stupid idea to begin with made worse in the hands of and inept creative team, the EGON PAX!!! episode, et cetera)... and a few of the Buffy episodes I've seen, though not many, have been better than some of the bad episodes of Gargoyles season 2 (most of the later Dracon episodes (Turf, Protection/Jalapena!), anything with Anton Sevarius in it (Monsters, Metamorphosis), and the weaker eps on the world tour (Easter Island, New Olympians, some of the ones already mentioned) If you're still not familiar at all with the Goliath Chronicles as I know you've previously claimed in Ask Greg you out to at least check out A Bronx Tale and the Egon Pax one... I forget what that episode was called... it had the Illuminati in it. They are just really, really, really hilariously bad. Mind-bogglingly bad. Funny, funny stuff... but sad at the same time. If it makes you laugh and cry that's supposed to be a good thing though, right?
I've said many times that I've seen every Goliath Chronicles episode (with the exception of "The Journey," which I've seen many times) exactly once. Those last twelve didn't make me laugh or cry. Just cringe.
As for the Garg Season Two episodes you don't like... well, we just disagree. They're not all perfect, of course. But I like them all.
But as for Buffy -- Dude, I don't know what to tell you. The series kicks ass. Everything that you criticize, is actually brilliant. The acting, the concept, the themes, the effects (most of them anyway), the vampires (most of them anyway), the fight choreography, etc. ROCKS! Is it all perfect? No, but what is?
Watching all the Buffy and Angel episodes on DVD has been great. The arcs are amazing, generally. And as for individual episodes, it could be argued -- particularly in later seasons -- that they hold up even better in a vaccuum, than they do as part of the arc.
But look, you don't have to agree. I mean, obviously, you don't agree. People have different tastes. But personally, Joss' TV work on Buffy, Angel and Firefly is, I think, some of the best in the business. And I like to think I have fairly high standards.
My DVD Review
Someone must have taken your advice, Greg, because a friend of mine found out the DVD was being released 2 weeks ago and told me, remembering that I was a fan of the show 10 years ago. Of course, I was thrilled. I remember it so fondly, I was excited to know there would be a DVD released.
I've got to say, I love this thing like the child I never had. After watching, now with the seasoned eyes of an adult, I can say it is easily the finest animated series ever aired on American Television. I'm now doing my diligence and spreading the word. And now that I've found this site, I'll be spending some terribly valubale time reacquainting myself with this series I've fallen in love with...all over again.
The DVD is beautiful, a vibrant transfer with crystal clear sound and fantastic menus. My only complaint is the lack of chapter breaks within the episodes, which does become a bit of an annoyance. I hope they fix that on Season 2. Which, of course, reminds me. I hope we SEE Season 2. I'm trying to spread the word on this DVD set, which brings me to my second complaint.
Why are WE the only ones spreading the word? I see absolutely NO marketing support for this DVD. Family Guy and 24 didn't become instant successes because Fox didn't support them!! Gargoyles isn't even LISTED as a new release on the front page of Disney's DVD section. What's THAT about? Eclipsed by "It's So Raven"? (I mean no disrespect to the fine individuals responsible for the creative and physical production of the previously mentioned project--or otherwise put, "No offence Tracey, but have you seen this DVD?") I'm just angry that Disney isn't giving people a chance to embrace this project, which plays just as well for an older audience as it did when I was a kid. Better, even. And new audiences like it to. I've already shared my disc with coworkers who are suddenly going ape-giggles--and have sent them to buy their own. Honestly, if the sales on this disc are lackluster, Disney can only blame itself. The distribution is even shotty. I TOO went to Target, Best Buy, Borders, Toys R Us, and Circuit City--none of which had the disc. I had to get it at Wal-Mart where I yelled at employees for shoving it behind copies of Spider-Man 2 (so if you read this before the turn of the new Millennium, Greg, try the one on Crenshaw :) That said, if the sales on this are at all impressive, it is truly a testament to the high quality of the show.
In the meantime, while we all wait for the verdict, I'll be scouring this website for more tidbits and memory jogging elements. And ordering TOON DISNEY. Because I've got to get my fix SOMEWHERE! I'm HOOKED!! AGAIN!!!
That's great Chad. I hope you stuck around long enough to learn of and grab ahold of the Season Two, Volume One DVD set as well.
Now... once again... hard truth time...
You and the rest of the fandom can complain all you like about Disney's near invisible marketing strategy for the two DVD releases, but to some extent you are missing the point...
Disney never planned to spend dime one on the marketing. If they thought they had to budget for marketing on this product, they wouldn't have produced it at all.
We -- the fandom and ME, really -- convinced them that these disks would sell without Disney's help. We -- the fandom, the conventions and ME -- led them to believe that we had so many hungry accolytes of the property that they could make money on the DVDs while spending next-to-nothing (on production, manufacture and distribution).
And this worked well enough to get us two releases. But not to get us three. Yelling at Disney may seem therapeutic, but it's completely counterproductive. So what do you want, therapy or DVDs? If the answer is the latter, than it's incumbant on us -- the fandom and ME -- to SPREAD THE WORD, and not wait on Disney to do something that they NEVER intended to do and most likely NEVER will do.
It just wasn't the implicit deal they made with us.
Believe it or not...
I'm pod-casting at http://www.catchdacraze.com/
Tried to listen to it myself, but couldn't make it work. But theoretically one of you might be able to manage it.
Can't hurt to try, right...
My DVD review.
The powers that be did a terrific job with this DVD. All thirteen episodes of the first season of "Gargoyles" uncut, unedited. Great picture and audio, nice transfer, the menus are great. They didn't let me down.
The episodes all look gorgeous, and after almost ten years of VHS tapes recorded off the TV, it makes a real difference. I'm even hearing sound effects and bits of music I never heard before, it's just wonderful.
The audio commentary on all five parts of Awakening by Greg Weisman, Frank Paur and Keith David was fun to listen to, they're all great guys... and I know as I've met and spoken to all three of them, and Greg I speak to a lot.
But first a little response directed at Greg... Was going through the fifth part of the "Awakening" commentary and when we get to the reveal of Demona's name, you go on about how you're not sure if it played well or not, if it was impressive enough for such a reveal.
Just thought you'd like a little feedback on that. I was thirteen when that episode first premered, and that scene made quite an impact on me, it was about then that she became my favorite character (up till just before Demona starts shooting at Goliath and playing out their 'little drama' Xanatos was the front runner, but as you know I love him too) but damn the reveal was dramatic, red smoke, her silhouette and she steps through it with her eyes flashing red holding the bazooka, and the character animation on her and the way Marina acted, and I knew her name was basically (demon) and that it was both well... demonic and beautiful, deadly and elegant all at the same time. I thought it was perfect.
So yeah, as far as this fan goes, the scene worked wonderfully.
The Gathering extra turned out very well also. It's 15 minutes, but it's well covered. I'm surprised at how much of me they use. And it's official, all these years of being a Demona fan boy, and now it's officially documented and I even appear on screen with her (split screen of me and her), just a little thing but it means something to me. Aaron and Mara are the other two Demona groupies in that part of the documentary. But lots of great stuff, lot of Greg W and Keith David. Sapphire appears just about every other shot (and I'm suddenly picturing the director of this documentary with a big blown up poster of her on his bedroom wall ;)). Everyone looked great, the bit where Aaron and Xanatos say the "Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into Hell" line in sinc was just awesome.
My only complaint was that they didn't show Aaron's Demona tattoo, and that the Gathering website's URL was not flashed on the screen. Aw well.
Overall, I give it a 9.9 out of 10. Would have gotten a gull 10 but no tattoo and no Gathering URL... still, the set is terrific, and overall exceeded my expectations.
Both your complaints are mine as well. There's also one edit of MY interview that makes it sound like I'm taking credit for the entire show, when in fact, without the edit, my point was to give credit to the rest of my development team. And as much as I loved Montreal, the featurette gives the impression that the Gathering is held there every year. I know there was footage that indicated that we are a roving con, but none of that made the cut.
And still, I think it turned out well.
And I'm glad the Demona beat worked for you too.
Here's my DVD review:
First, the Power Rangers commercial made me laugh. Someone brought up how it was like the murderer speaking at the victim's funeral.
The animated menus were GORGEOUS!!! Absoulutely beautiful.
The clarity of the pictures were awesome. Ditto for the audio.
The commentaries, doc, and pitch were enlightening to me. It's a pity that they didn't make the Gathering featurete longer.
Anyway, that's my review. Short and sweet.
Thank you, Mr. Weisman, for creating such a good series.
You're welcome. I'm very glad you liked the DVD. I liked the current length of the Gathering featurette. Like you said, "short and sweet". There were a couple of things they cut that I wish they had kept in, but I've watched ALL the footage they shot that weekend, and I think they got most of the best stuff.
I am so sorry the last post was meant to read "Thank you for helping to stop them from driving the clan apart in the final episode" not for "not helping".
Once again thank you for an amazing series, forgive me for the mistake in the previous post.
Yeah, I got the gist of it. Thanks.
More a comment than a question. I am new to this forum but have been a fan of the show for a long time now. I just read the posts about the third season and am relieved to see that it was not under the same direction as the first two seasons which explains the extremely different feel to those eps as apposed to the first two seasons. I am sorry that the series was taken from you ( I cannot believe that they felt the need to do so seeing the job you had done with the previous eps.) but I am happy knowing that these were not your works. You are an extremely talented person to have done so much with this series and the overall feel of the series was increadible. You are amazing!
P.S.- Thank you for not helping stop them from driving the clan apart by the end of the third season. I can't believe that was even considered!
Thank you again for your time. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the series on dvd and have purchased season 1 already ofcourse, but I now have a whole new outlook on the Goliath Chronicles. Once again I am sorry you were unable to complete the series the way you had invisioned.
Thanks for the kind words.
I was wondering how sales have been to date thus far for the season 1 set? I work for a local retailer here in Toronto Canada and our sales have been modest so far. I'm hoping that sales have been better than I've been seeing as I am hoping and praying for seasons 2 & 3 sets. Please when you find time let us know. I'm sure everyone else would love to know. Thank you for your time.
I recently answered this question. Sales on Season One were decent enough. Not stellar. But good enough to get us Season Two, Volume One. Sales on the latter were not decent enough for BVHE to schedule a release for Season Two, Volume Two. We need more sales. We need to SPREAD THE WORD.
And if you think I never get tired of typing "SPREAD THE WORD", you're wrong.
Hey maybe if I post this now you'll read it in time for the 2nd season on DVD release.
Anyway I was just wondering, since you later came to regret how much info you gave away in the "previously on Gargoyles" segments, did you consider taking these out of the DVD or reediting them? I notice they are still on there. But I'm thinking you probably had no input.
Taking them out would sort of be like editing the episode I guess, which some people would view as bad, but really I think packaged as the entire complete season you really don't need the "previously" or "next time" tags. They could be eliminated entirely. Or, you could put breaks in the episode so that someone with a remote for their DVD player that lets them skip chapters could easily fast forward to the meat and potatoes of the episode. It gets really old watching the opening over and over again for every single episode, but the only breaks on the season 1 DVD are between episodes so there is no easy way to skip it you just have to scan forward like the ol' VCR days. I hope on season 2 maybe you can put some chapter breaks in right after the opening and before the ending credits. Maybe even at each commercial break if you want to go all out.
Anyway... my 2 cents..
I had imput, and I chose very consciously to keep them on. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. The "Previously" segments were an integral part of how the series was originally presented. I never considered cutting them.
Chapter breaks, on the other hand, as much as I would have liked them, were not presented as an option. More than BVHE wanted to pay to include them.
I've watched the DVD now (twice most of the way through), plus all the bonus features... ready for season 2 now. :) To comment on the little Gathering bit on the DVD, at the risk of making myself unpopular here, I'd just like to say, jesus, I hope I never have to go to any of these things. Brought back some really bad flashbacks to the several BotCons I attended, because my girlfriend at the time was a HUGE Transformers freak. oh my god, the people there, biggest dorks in the universe. Just.. plain... SCARY. They make the most inane esoteric jokes in the world (typically obscure references to fanfiction charcters or comic geek lore or whatever, frequently interspersed with sophisticated penis humor or whatever infantile thing is on their mind at the time), stuff no normal person would find funny, and then laugh hysterically like it's the funniest thing in the world. The get SO passionate about the weirdest things, having debates over the most meaningless asinine thing in some episode of the show. Then there's the cosplaying and the role-playing and ... ugh. I didn't know it was possible but it looks like the average person at the Gathering is even geekier than your typical BotCon attendee. Why is it none of these people seem to know anything about personal grooming? You can't even go to pick up chicks because most of the girls there are borderline not-doable. I noticed two exceptions on the Gargoyles DVD. One girl who spoke frequently on the DVD though she REALLY looked out of place with the rest of this crowd... she was totally hot... ambiguous ethnicity... Indian? Pakistani maybe? She said she was considering getting in to voice acting. Then there was another girl who was pretty cute, said that she got picked on a lot in high school and the Gargoyles fandom became her family, she reminded me a lot of my first girlfriend and also looked a bit like Anna Paquin. She was hot too.
Anyway, sorry for the negative rant. Just... ew... bad flashbacks, like I said. Keith David is cool tho, isn't he?
Ugh, I had a long negative rant of my own about your rant, but I just deleted nearly all of it in the interest of diplomacy. Here's what's left:
--Speaking of "infantile"... reread your own words above. You've topped the infantile list on anything ever posted here in the history of ASK GREG.
--You've never been to a Gathering. And whether or not it's your cup of tea, you have no idea how much fun it is for those who attend -- including myself and Keith David...
[Again, that's the DIPLOMATIC edit of what I originally wrote.]
I have noticed talk of possible ideas for the return of gargoyles, and i was just wondering if this is the site where we could find out first if one of the ideas have been approved for continuing the story of gargoels? Thanks.
This is a good site for that. I've never been shy about using it to promote my stuff -- especially GARGOYLES.
And you have picked up the Gargoyles comic book, right?
And both DVD sets, right?
And you've made plans to attend the Gathering, right?
See. It works.
Hey Greg I bought the GARGOYLES DVD today and I have enjoyed it already here is my question
How long did it take yall to do the animation and get the voice overs
for Disney at that time please let me know thanks
It took ten months for every step. (It's called a ten-month sliding schedule.)
That is we had ten months to write the scripts. Ten months to record the voices. Ten months to storyboard. Ten months to animate. Etc. But all of those various "ten months" overlapped. The whole process was probably more like 14 months.
Hey, Greg. Both me and my two brothers picked up the first season on Tuesday. Awesome stuff, just as I remember. Now, my question: How much do the primary Gargoyles weigh in their night form? A couple of humans from the first season (Like Wolf in 'Leader of the Pack' seem able to toss Goliath around when he couldn't possbily weigh less than 500 pounds (Unless you say so, of course). On the other hand, in 'Awakening, Part 5' Brooklyn struggles mightily to carry the injured Lexington, and it seems Lex couldn't be more than around 200. So yeah, clarification would be great.
Thanks in advance for your eventual answer and fantastic series.
Your welcome for the series. Thanks for buying it. But I'm not going to be much help on the rest, besides pointing out that the conservation of mass rule suggests that a garg's weight doesn't change when it turns to "stone" or vice versa.
I don't have a clue what they weigh, though beyond obvious stuff like the fact that Goliath weighs more than Brooklyn, who weighs more than Lex.
I love the series. Is there a RPG based off of the series?
I don't know.
I thought that I'd better rephrase my Questing Beast comment/question, since I realized that I didn't state it too carefully. What my query was about, properly, was about the Beast still being alive in the present-day of the Gargoyles Universe. As I'd mentioned before, I'd assumed until you mentioned it that it wasn't, since it wasn't on the Arthurian Survivors list, so I'd assumed that it was deceased, like Lancelot, Guinevere, Gawain, Mordred, etc.
So is the Questing Beast's absence from the Arthurian Survivors list simply a case of it not counting as an "Arthurian character" in the same way as Arthur, Merlin, Percival, Blanchefleur, etc. - being rather an animal (though certainly a very remarkable animal)? That's what I'm assuming, but I just wanted to be certain about that.
I refuse to make you certain of anything in this life. I can't handle the responsibility.
I've been wondering something about Hudsons' wing structure. Are the "tatters" around the edges of his wings an old injury (like his eye) or just a normal sign of aging among gargoyles?
Just read the resume you posted- two things caught my curiosity: One was in reference to the Disney Afternoon block, "Developed animated feature length idea, The Tempest", and the other was "1999: Macbeth, DREAMWORKS FEATURE ANIMATION. Writer". I hope my memory isn't failing me, but I don't remember either being discussed on Ask Greg. Were these straight adaptations of the Shakespeare, inspired by, reminiscent of...?
Thanks in advance for answering.
At Disney, the Tempest idea I had was inspired by the play. Followed the basic outline of the story, but wasn't the play itself.
At DreamWorks, I developed TWO versions of Macbeth. One dead on, i.e. the actual play. And one that was inspired by the play, but told from a different point of view.
Of course, none of this stuff was for the Disney Afternoon block.
In your resume you mentioned a Robotech Mars Force, how does this fit within the bounds of the Robotech series in relation to the other series (Macross, Southern Cross, New Generation and Sentinels)?
Well, the short answer is that it doesn't. I developed a new Robotech series for Harmony Gold. We went down the road together a little ways, and then they ultimately passed. (I liked it. So it's too bad, I think.)
I'm afraid I can't say anything else about it, because I signed a N.D.A. (i.e. a Non-Disclosure Agreement).
I recently bought four copies of the Gargoyles DVD on Amazon. I've encouraged other people I know to buy it as well. I've posted to various cartoon-related bulletin boards informing people about the release of the DVD. I wrote a glowing review at Amazon (one of about 140- the overwhelming majority of which are 5/5 and say something along the lines of "best series of all time"). I even wrote an e-mail to Harry Knowles at Aint It Cool News asking him to plug the DVD's release or have one of his editors review it, no response from him but oh well I tried. Anyway... I know this won't be answered for another year at least but I wish it was sooner, I just wish we had some idea of how good this thing has to sell to get us any attention at all. I was watching the DVD's performance at Amazon, I think it peaked at about 130 on the best-selling DVDs list unless I wasn't paying attention when it went higher than that. Right now it is down around 200. Not bad... but I wonder if that's anywhere near good enough. Have been checking in hourly to hear from you any thoughts about how well the disc is selling at this point, I know nothing about the economics of home video sales so I'm in the dark, just want to know if we should all be excited or depressed.
Anyway, thanks so much for the series, and now for the DVD, have watched the commentary track already and plan on sharing the whole first season with my nephews and a few friends whenever I can lure them over to the house. Maybe win a few converts that way. My nephews will be getting a copy for XMas. Hope you are well. By the time you read this we'll probably know for sure if the disc was a smashing success or total failure or something in between so, in any case, stay in high spirits. You made something great.
Season One was not a smashing success, but it did well enough. Unfortunately, Season Two, Volume One was something less than a success -- a fact which has discouraged BVHE from putting Volume Two on their schedule.
Having said that, BVHE is reluctant to give me hard numbers on either release, let alone a threshold of success in any concrete terms. The short answer is always that the first release (Season One) did well enough and that the second release (Season Two, Volume One) did not.
I do appreciate all the effort you put into both purchasing and promoting the first release. I am curious as to whether or not you did the same for the second? My sense is that on the whole, the fandom initially took for granted that everyone who bought Season One would both know about and purchase Season Two. And so less effort was made initially to SPREAD THE WORD. That may have been rectified in some degree, since. But whatever the old threshold was, we have to surpass that now to get Disney's attention all over again, since they now believe the property is a disappointment. That attitude, and BVHE's lack of marketing on either disk is of course disappointing, but this is the reality this fandom has always lived with. We have to do it ourselves!
I was reading your resume and first may I saw WOW! So many great things you have given to people around the world. And second, I'd like to thank you both for your resume and all your wonderful ideas.
I noticed you mentioned you worked on Ducktales. I remember an episode when Scrooge and the nephews go to Scotland. I forget the exact details, but it had to do with Shakespeare and his play "MacDuck". This particular episodes reminds me of you heavily, for obvious reasons.
1.)Were you involved in writing this particular episode?
2.)If so, was it your idea to bring "MacBeth" into the Ducktales Universe?
3.)Any other thoughts on this episode?
2. See above.
3. I honestly can't remember it. Which may mean that I never saw it. Or may mean that I just can't remember it.
Sorry if all that disappoints, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one trying to bring the Bard to the masses.
The thing to remember is that I only worked on the very tail end of that series. A tiny bit of work on one sequence of the feature film. And then the last five episodes, including a Valentine's Special and a two-parter about a golden goose.
Just looked over the resume that you included in one of your most recent answers, and thought that I'd tell you that I found it amusing and very appropriate that two projects that you'd worked on were feature-length animated versions (which apparently wound up being scrapped before completed) of "The Tempest" and "Macbeth". I certainly can't say that I'm too surprised that you'd be working on them.
No, it's not particularly surprising, just a bit depressing. I also spent some time working on a Midsummer Night's Dream animated feature. But that never got off the ground either.
You recently announced that you had previously worked on a 'Spider-Man' series in 2002. Is this the same show that Jeff Masuta worked on, based on some designs on his site?
What happened to the show?
How much was done?
I briefly worked on the MTV Spider-Man series. I'm not sure if Jeff also worked on that one. (I've worked with Jeff on other shows.) The series did indeed air. But none of my work saw the light of day, as the story editor I was working for was booted before I even got my outline approved.
You just recently posted a reply to a question about whether or not you would consider writing a Gargoyles novel to help flesh out your master plan in lieu of doing a continuation of the series. This seems like a good idea to me. You replied that you would love to write a novel (or eight) if you could find an interested publisher. But you don't need a traditional publisher to get published these days. You can write a book, publish it online, and interested parties can order copies and the books can be printed one at a time. This means no huge financial risk for publishers and so no need for a huge audience, it means increased per-sale profit for the author, which would be good for you since the novels probably won't make the NY Times Bestseller list and you would probably want at least some financial incentive to pour so much of your time into such a project. These days anybody can get published, it's something you ought to look into, as an outlet for yourself as well as for all the dedicated fans. Though personally I'm pulling for the DVD sales to get that movie made and then a new series... but I know that's probably wishful thinking at this point. we'll see in four days how that's going to pan out..
Good luck in all your future endeavors.. which you will have about two years worth of from now until the time you actually answer this. :)
The idea has crossed my mind before -- on other properties -- but you're leaving out a big piece of the puzzle here in the gargverse. I don't OWN Gargoyles. I can't self-publish a for-profit Garg novel.
If Donald Canmore was indeed the wellspring of the Hunter line and ancestor of Jason, Jon and Fiona how exactly did he sire children before his death at the young age of seventeen(1068-1085) or is this another misreporting of history similar to Macbeth actually being killed by Malcom Canmore or Malory and those writers before him leaving out gargoyles because of the prejudice of the time :) ?
Huh. The research I have indicates that Donald Canmore was born in 1069 and died in 1093. If that's wrong, it does screw me up a bit. I guess I'll need to triple check.
First let me thank you and the rest of the Gargoyles team for the series. I have been a fan since it debuted. Truthfully, whether or not this actually gets posted doesn't concern me, but I just read a post/reply about writing novels. DAW Books is always encouraging submissions, so here is the link:
It gives all the instructions for your submission. Once again thanks and I finally saw the "sneak peek" for W.I.T.C.H. and if it holds true, I look forward to seeing Season 2.
You seem to be under the assumption that I've written a novel to submit. But I haven't. Given that it's a property that I do not own, I can't justify spending the time to write an entire novel on spec, in the hopes that some publisher will want it so much that they will not only pay me but they will also pay Disney to let them publish it (the latter being a not unconsiderable sum, I'd guess).
I was wondering something about gargoyle biology. As know from Future Tense, Broadway hasn't fully mutured physically, and will grown more horns as he ages. I was wondering if in some instances gargoyles act the same as other horned animals in the animal kingdom. Like infant gazelles are not born with antlers, they grow as the animal matures, perhaps horned gargoyles like Brooklyn, or any gargoyle for that matter, are hatched virtually hornless?
Thank you for your time.
I wouldn't take anything from Future Tense as gospel.
is there some reason we have to wait until the 7th to buy the DVD in order to create a buzz? I want to help as much as I can and personally plan on buying 3 or 4 copies on that date but, wouldn't it be cheaper if we preorder it from Amazon? Maybe we could all preorder on the 6th and still create a spike while saving a lot of money? Just a thought.
This is a bit moot now. I only know what BVHE advised me, which was that buying on the day was the most helpful thing to do. Now, of course, assuming you've already bought both DVDs, the most helpful thing to do is SPREAD THE WORD.
I remember your mentioning at the Gathering 2001 about your idea for the odd little two-parter about Goliath and Co. getting trapped in a performance of Shakespeare's "Macbeth". Was this idea of yours at all influenced or inspired by the famous superstitions revolving around the "Scottish Play"?
Not per se.
1-You've previously stated that in your version of Arthurian Lore that Morgana was really a member of the third race who for some reason was actually traded for the real child Duke Gorlois and Igraine and raised by them. So given the strange circumstances surrounding your version of Morgana, would she still be antagonistic towards the reawakened Arthur Pendragon, if by chance they met, considering that the people that Uther Pendragon wronged weren't her real biological parents and that Arthur has been gone and asleep on Avalon for more than a thousand years or would she stilll bear a grudge towards him even though Arthur's knights and kingdom are all but vanished.
2-On a related note to the first question why was Nimue, the person who supposedly trapped Merlin, made the actual biological child of Gorlois and Igraine when there wasn't any connection between her or Gorlois and Igraine in the actual legends. Was this whole plot twist set up in order to explain why Morgana had supernatural powers while Arthur was an ordinary mortal?
1. The notion that adoptive relationships are less potent then biological makes no sense to me. But other than making that general statement, I'm not really going to answer your question, as it looks forward to Arthur and Morgana's next encounter, which I hope to someday show you ... most likely in comic book form.
2. It's WAY more complicated than that. But the cop out (and yet true) answer is that sometimes a story point just feels right. (cf. Puck is Owen. Owen is Puck.)
THE NEW OLYMPIANS
(I had written a rather lengthy ramble on this last night, but due to some glitch or other, lost it. So, here I try to recreate that which was lost.)
This episode is always a little difficult for me to watch, mostly because of the unreasoning hatred and bigotry displayed by many of the New Olympians. It "angers the blood" in me, if you will. Things like Helios' "What a foul stench, it must be coming from the human!" just rankle me. I mean, I know that they have legitimate grievances (or, at least, their ancestors had them), and if they had only avoided Elisa, I might be a bit more tolerant. Despite the wrongness of his decision, I can like Boreas because he at least seems to try. Even Taurus, who has the seed of hatred inside him, does not always make decisions based on it, and even breaks up the riot. But the behavior of the rioters and their ringleaders--Ekidna, Kiron, and especially Helios (I don't know why I single him out, but if feels right)...it's just completely inexcusable (and loathsome).
Oddly enough, I don't feel the same way about Proteus, who is arguably more evil than any of the rioters. I mean, this is the guy who performs evil acts BECAUSE they're evil, right? And yet, I enjoy watching him. Why is that? Is it because Proteus does not make any excuses for his evil (at least, not here)? It's like...okay, you watch ANGEL, right Greg? You've seen that episode with that one guy, Billy (I think that was his name), the Hell-freed misogynist who could incite instant and violent hatred for women in any man he touched? (If you haven't, please skip to the next paragraph) It turned out that Angel was immune because he had worked past hate a long time ago, but he admitted that even as Angelus (his evil side) he was never motivated by hatred so much as a perverse sense of glee from inflicting suffering. And while I can actually kind of enjoy watching Angelus work (no matter what he does), I could feel only raw disgust and hatred at Billy, who tries to justify his bigotry. It's the same way with Proteus and the rioters, here.
Anyway, on with the episode.
I loved the music that played when the skiff passed through the "shimmering" area and New Olympus was first revealed.
Also, the designs for this episode were great--I love the many and varied character designs of the New Olympians themselves, especially Boreas and Helios.
And I echo Erin's assessment of the city: "Wow."
As soon as Elisa shoved the gargs off to the side and said, "No telling how they'll react to gargoyles," I immidiately put two and two together and figured out where this episode was going. I mean, whenever anyone says something so obvious like that it's almost like asking for the reverse to happen.
Interesting restraint system the N.O.s have. There's not much more I can say about it, but I did find it rather peculiar.
I agree with you about the Senate House walla, Greg. I must have heard that one guy say, "Humans can't live with us! They're dangerous! They're animals," or something like it, about two, maybe three times.
Also, theres a moment here that I always find a bit odd. When Taurus removes his helmet/mask, the way it's staged--the camera angles, and Goliath's spreading his wings--seems to indicate that this is some sizeable revelation. And yet, it was rather anticlimactic. Taurus, if anything, looked exactly as I expected him to look.
I like it that the "Leader" of the New Olympians holds a "lightning staff"--sort of harkens back to Zeus. Or is that thing particular to the Boreas of New Olympus?
And there's a moment towards the end of the Senate House scene that I missed until the third or fourth viewing: Goliath and Elisa embrace.
I do have to wonder about Boreas' decision here. What did he expect to happen? Did he have too high an opinion about the behavior of his people or did he suspect what would happen (which would make his decision somewhat malevolent)? I'd like to believe the former, but if that's the case, then he may be just a bit too optimistic.
And then we have the riot, which I've already touched on. Helios gets things rolling with his "stench" comment (kind of a racial slur), but Kiron throws the first punch. Like Todd, I find these two particularly reprehensible because they're supposed to be peace-keepers. Ekidna I actually find myself being more tolerant towards (maybe she reminds me of Demona). It's odd, but the way she talks about how the human's treated the N.O.s in the past sounds almost as if she experienced it personally. Then again, maybe I'm reading too much into that.
While Taurus' arresting Elisa is unjust, it did probably save her life in the immediate moment.
Actually, I find Taurus very interesting here as he's walking Elisa towards her cell. Whatever hatred he may have for humans, it doesn't stop him from telling Elisa about his father's murder by Proteus. He even manages to sound a little nice when he says "Make yourself comfortable, you could be here awhile." He also breaks up the riot, threatening to arrest everyone, and fire Helios (I love Helios' meek, "Y-yes, sir!"). Of course, I think a little of Taurus' own bias still shows through when he says "If you've got a problem, take it up with Boreas." It almost sounds as if he has a few things he'd like to say to the winged-one. Of course, I may again be reading too much into this.
Like I said, Taurus strikes me as someone who, while subject to prejudice, TRIES to act in spite of it. He's not always successful (he arrests Elisa instead of just moving her out of harm's way), but I'd like to think his effort counts for something.
And now we come to Proteus. I have to admit, my interest in him increased when you mentioned in a previous response that he was probably the closest thing to "pure evil," "evil incarnate," what-have-you that we have yet encountered in the GARGOYLES universe. There are many reasons I would have wanted to see the New Olympians spin-off, and a further exploration of Proteus' character was one of them. I would have loved seeing him in action beyond the scope of this one episode. And the late Roddy McDowell...what a great voice and performance.
I love how Proteus immediately begins quizzing Elisa about her mode of transportation. You can tell he's already thinking of escape.
Admittidly, Proteus may not be the best actor--"Who's that guy?" is probably the worst Goliath impression I've ever heard--but then again, he didn't have a heck-of-a-lot of time to study his subjects. I mean, if any of us had shape-shifting powers we could probably pull off a decent impression of the characters because we've watched and studied them so much. For what little time he had, Proteus' acting got the job done (up to a point--I'm not sure how convincingly he can turn to stone).
I find it interesting that Proteus' voice doesn't change when he becomes the Cyclops (is that a sort of secondary, "preferred form" for him?). I also find it interesting just how easily he seems to be hurt in that form. His fist connects with a collumn and he's in pain, and immediately after this he is felled by one punch from Taurus (granted it's to his EYE, but...).
One of my favorite sequences is in this episode. Proteus-as-Taurus, heads up to the Collinadium (however that's spelled) and begins to overload it. As he's doing this, Talos is explaining why this is a bad idea, and asking him to stop (while displaying missles) in such a frustratingly calm voice! I find it hilarious! Maybe that's why I feel sad when I see Talos' inert body hanging from Proteus' fist--I like the robot.
Angela does real well at dodging the restraints. If the sun hadn't rose, she probably could have kept it up for a while.
I always wince when Kiron tips over Bronx. It looks like something might have broken off.
Back to Proteus really quick--I love his transformations in this episode. The way he just sort of liquifies. The change from Goliath to Cyclops (with the two eyes becoming one) was especially well-done.
Taurus has his "I don't understand" moment, which is kind of required for episodes tackling subject matter like this. When the character actually says those words, I usually find it a bit too on the head, but Michael Dorn's acting helps make it work. And I love the wink Taurus gives Elisa.
One thing that I think many viewers may miss the first time is that Elisa DID NOT change the whole island--which is what would happen in another, more standard series (kind of like what TGC did with ANGELS IN THE NIGHT). Only Taurus and Boreas have really come to trust Elisa (Taurus even waves to her).
"The time may soon come when the world will have to face the New Olympians." When I first watched this, way back when it first aired, my mother watched it with me. As soon as Boreas said this, she turned to me with a smile and said, "I smell a spin-off." If we only knew how right we almost were.
(Then there's my brother, who thought that line sounded more like a threat...).
A little note on voices here. Having been an admirer of Rob Paulsen's work, I was glad to see him finally show up on GARGOYLES. I only wished I'd gotten to see more of him as Helios.
Overall, the voices were all well done (especially when the actors played Proteus-as-their character).
Yes, Taurus and Coldstone do sound a little too much alike, but Taurus has a slightly different speaking style than Coldstone, so that helps somewhat.
Of course, now that you've mentioned that Taurus, Talos and Proteus each had different voices originally, I'm going to be going crazy trying to figure out who they were!
This is a nice episode, with some rather difficult subject matter for me, but I like it. And I know I would have loved to see the NEW OLYMPIANS series.
I've been invited to attend two more conventions (my eighth and ninth of the year >whew<) in October.
The first is "CON-Sequential" in Memphis, TN, October 14-15th.
The second is the "Mo-Kan Comics CONspiracy" in Kansas City, MO,
If you're in the neighborhood of either or both, please stop by and say hello.
Dear Mr. Weisman-
I was wondering if you could clarify how William Shakespeare fits into the Gargoyle universe. Was he aware of the Third Race in some regard, or was he just a very talented writer whose stories were closer to truth than fiction?
Thank you for your time, and for your creation.
Will's place in our world is a story I've yet to tell, but want to tell -- eventually in the comic book. So I'm not going to spell it out here, other than to reiterate what I've already revealed: i.e. that Macbeth was a friend to Will, though Will never knew that Macbeth was MACBETH.
And, oh, yes, Will wrote his plays.
Mr. Weisman, I watched "The Edge" today and found myself amazed by how well you and the writers (in this case, Michael Reeves) pulled off your surprise endings. They were always shocking without feeling 'cheap.' This is because they always make perfect sense in the context of the episode, once you know what's really up. I think the way you accomplished this, without resorting to manipulative or dishonest tactics, was to make the viewer feel like he was in control. For instance, in "The Edge," the viewer is happy to believe Xanatos has created a new, more advanced Steel Clan robot. That would have been a cool plot development in and of itself, and something the viewer felt he grasped better than the gargoyles did. In "The Price," the viewer knows that Macbeth is immortal, while the gargoyles do not, so he feels more in control than the gargoyles. Perhaps this even results in a sort of gracious laze-of-mind in the viewer, by which you and the writers used the gargoyles' naivete, both of the modern world and of the show's arching plot, as a way of lulling us into a false sense of security. Was this a conscious tactic? Is it something you and the show's writers saw yourselves pulling off or was it business-as-usual? Is such stuff taught in television writing classrooms? I've never seen another show pull off its surprise endings quite as remarkably as Gargoyles. The very first time you pull one off is "The Thrill of the Hunt," an episode that could well have ended, just as "The Edge," after the gargoyles turned to stone. But like "The Sixth Sense," you kept going, and in the process, turned what would have been merely "good" stories into great ones. These episodes and the others like them were not created for the sole purpose of their surprise endings. They were flesh-and-blood stories that you and the writers ended with surprises nonetheless. Most of the praise for Gargoyles goes to its multiethnicity, its voice cast, its music, its gothic atmosphere, the dialogue (which you claim was sixth-grade level, but I've never read a newspaper article as verbose as Goliath), and all deservedly so, but one of the most enduring aspects of all were the shock endings.
I'm glad that stuff works for you. It worked for us.
The main drive behind endings like that was a desire not to undercut our lead villains. Villains get tiresome when they lose all the time. And heroes are pointless if they lose all the time. (It's fun and dramatic and right to have both sides lose occasionally. But if either side loses ALL the time... well then where's the drama?)
But if a hero wins the battle and then we secretly reveal (in our patented Xanatos tags) that he may still be losing the war, then that keeps both sides interesting.
So it's not shock value for shock value's sake. But it lead us down a path that gave you the surprises you enjoyed. It forced us to always look BEHIND the obvious. Forced us to work harder. Then, I think the trick is to play fair. We may not reveal all, and -- your right -- our characters (human and gargoyle alike) may make incorrect assumptions about the situation, but all the clues are there from the moment the "PREVIOUSLY ON GARGOYLES..." starts to roll. (In fact, sometimes I feared that too many clues were planted.) By playing fair you get that double whammy at the end... both the surprise but also the "Of course..." That feeling that it's right. That it's not cheating. That in fact nothing else could possibly make sense.
Perhaps the ultimate example of that was the Owen/Puck revelation.
As for whether that's taught in writing classes? None specifically that I've taken. I've touched on it, here and there, in a couple of the classes that I've taught over the years. But I don't think I've ever focused a lesson plan on this point either. It's very much at the fine tuning end of the spectrum. Not something you'd get into in a survey course.
What is the highest point in North America
I give up. What is the highest point in North America?
Will the DVD of Gargoyles be released in Canada on December 7th also?
I don't know. Was it? It certainly could not have been too hard to get in Canada, I would think.
And again, both the SEASON ONE DVD and the SEASON TWO VOLUME ONE DVD are currently available. Because of mediocre sales on the latter, there are no current plans to release SEASON TWO VOLUME TWO at this time. So we need to SPREAD THE WORD to people. Let them know that the DVDs are out there and available and raise the sales figures so that we can get that next release.
While utilizing the nifty SEARCH function, I decided to look up responses for "the whisper". I came up with this:
Question received on Mon, August 07, 2000 03:01:14 AM
1.What did titania whisper into fox's ear at he end of the gathering part2
1. Do you think they'll be wondering about this in Ask Greg four years from now?
Response recorded on August 23, 2000
And given the most recent Q&A on that subject was recently posted.... 4+ years after that Q&A was done.... I think your answer holds true.. heh :) We were still wondering that in Ask Greg.. in 2004 :)
The fandom that you didn't anticipate has bugged you about something that you didn't think you would have been bugged about.
Keep it up, it's fun being confused, etc. :D
My pleasure. (Most of the time.)
EYE OF THE STORM
(And a Happy Thanksgiving 2004, BTW.)
This was the second time the Eye surprised me--the first being when it was revealed to be more than a mere bauble. Now we find out it really is Odin's eye, and he's looking for it.
I love Odin's "old wanderer" guise. The "star-cloak" is nicely done. His final, "Warrior-King" ensemble is a little less impressive to me, actually, but still nice (and hey--having little exposure to the great Kirby's work, it looked pretty fresh to me).
This is one of those episodes where, after watching it, you realise just how EASY things would have been if everyone had been honest and open from the start. As you pointed out Greg, Odin could have just said, "Hi! Welcome to Norway! I'm Odin, I'll be your resident supernatural being today. Oh, by the way, could I have my eye back please? I really miss having depth perception." He might have actually got his Eye in less time than it takes to watch the first Act. And poor Gunther and Erik wouldn't have lost a wall of their house!
Erik is an interesting fellow, to me. He know's Elisa's hiking story is suspect, but he doesn't want to press her about it, and in fact seems to have a rather cheerful attitude in spite of the deception. He also, to me, never seems to quite trust Goliath. Even after Elisa's first brought him up to speed he says, "From what you've told us, it sounds like we're in good hands with your Goliath." He doesn't sound completely sure about that.
Gunther's reaction to the gargoyles and the world they open up is great--wonder and enthusiasm. Pretty much what you'd expect for a boy his age. I love his eagerness to see Angela and Bronx wake up, along with his happy, "Hi, you must be An-GEL-a" (I love his strange pronunciation there).
I also love Angela's response to that greeting--"Uh...yes, I am." You go to sleep and then wake up on top of a car with a young lad happily saying your (mispronounced) name--yeah, that can be disorienting.
"The Fall of Goliath"--This was very well done. I liked how you guys developed the way in which the Eye "corrupts" Goliath. It takes his caring, protective nature and twists it into a rigid, tyrannical, "It's all for your own good" sort of thing. I have to admit I was at first surprised when it was revealed that he had been creating the storms, but afterwards it made perfect sense.
Actually, it's interesting that, after riding away and yelling "This isn't over," Odin really does cease to take any action against our heroes. He doesn't surface again until Goliath calls him out.
That battle is very well-done, BTW. It's pretty obvious that in terms of raw power, Goliath's got the edge, however Odin is the one who uses more subtlety--such as freeing Goliath's friends.
Goliath has some real "villain" moments in this piece, the most obvious of course being his line to Odin, "How frustrating for you, Old Man. To be so close to Death, and Rejuvination at the same time." Did anyone else hear a "Darth Vader Breath-Track" there?
Others would include the one you pointed out, Greg, where Goliath just says they'll "pack" Angela and Bronx--that always threw me off for some reason--and just the way he says, "A cave...yes, a cave would be ideal."
Before I forget, "Odinized Goliath" had a great design--and I like how it was tied in with Odin's "Warrior-King" design. The starry (sp?) wings were a nice touch, too.
SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS:
Goliath: "Believe it or not, we've hit ice."
Elisa: "I believe it." (A fun little exchange.)
I love how Goliath holds Elisa at the beginning. Obviously, it's to try and keep her warm...but there's, to me, a pretty strong undercurrent of attraction there. And I love his line (and the way he says it), "It is my duty to protect you."
Dang! In trying to get the Sturllisen's (sp?) car to stop, our heroes nearly send them over a cliff! Good thing Goliath can pretty much bench their car.
Elisa tries to outrun a man on a horse...well, I guess it beats just standing around, but they both have the same outcome.
I really wish more had been done with Goliath's first sight of the sun. This time, though, I began to wonder if Goliath was more enamoured with the feeling of the sun, or the feeling of the POWER coursing through him.
"Maybe you should take the Eye off now." I love how Goliath pauses ever so slightly before answering that.
I recall someone once saying that they were glad neither Gunther nor Erik became a new hero for Norway. :-)
Angela and Bronx are crusted with ice before they awaken. I rather liked that.
"The Eye! The Eye has gone to your head!" I love the look on Goliath's face after that--the raised brow ridge. It's almost like he's reacting to the (unintentional on Elisa's part) pun.
Goliath's turn around was a bit too quick and pat, but it nevertheless touched on Goliath's love for his daughter. I rather like Elisa's admission "Wish I'd thought of that." Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but it seems to me like it touches on Elisa's feelings for Goliath. Elisa may not be much for being the "Damsel in Distress"(tm), but all the same, I think she sort of likes being "rescued" by Goliath.
BTW, when'd the Eye get its "neck-chain" back?
To me, Odin's putting his Eye in its socket wasn't anti-climactic. It was just right. I mean, that's all he really wanted it for. And his and Goliath's final exchange was very well-done. I like how they admitted that each of them had kind of screwed up.
At any rate, I really enjoyed this episode and was glad to get a chance to see what happened when Goliath wore the Eye of Odin.
BTW, way back when you rambled on TEMPTATION (3 years ago, I think?) you said there were 3 toy tie-ins throughout the series. The first was the motorcycle in TEMPTATION. The second was supposed to be the helicoptor in HER BROTHER'S KEEPER (which wound up becoming a "sky sled"). And the third was supposed to be in this episode. So, what was the toy supposed to be?
"Oh, by the way, could I have my eye back please? I really miss having depth perception."
As for the toy connection, they wanted a "STORM-BRINGER GOLIATH" (I think that was the name). They were doing a whole line of elemental gargoyles. Ice-Brooklyn, I think, was one. They wound up doing Hudson as the storm gargoyle, I seem to recall (although it's been a LONG time and I don't have those toys).
Also, as I've mentioned before, the EYE OF ODIN itself was the invention of the Disney Interactive Games people, and they used it in the game they created over there. (In fact they had a better - NORSER- design than we had. I always thought that our design looked a bit too Egyptian.)
I've been a fan of Gargoyles since it was first broadcast. And I still enjoy watching it even now years later, and look forward to the long awaited DVD release. The show is very original, and I think it had a lot of life left in it still when it ended. Which brings on my question Ive thought about off and on while watching the show. Do you ever think the relationship between Demona and Angela was given absolution? There was no real closure in The Reckoning, and the episode Generations strung along without adding any development.
I don't count "Generations" myself one way or another. And I'm not sure exactly what you mean in this context by "absolution," but there was no intent for true closure in "The Reckoning". None. I don't see "closure" happening anytime soon, but keep an eye out in the comic book for the relationship to progress.
I have to admit, when this first aired, I was more than a little surprised to see Arthur showing up again (or at least, so soon after AVALON). Likewise with Griff. And it was even more surprising that you guys teamed them up like this. Surprising and delightful.
I was also pleased to see the return of Macbeth (for the last time in the regular series). I have to admit, at first I was a little disappointed that Macbeth was the antagonist, simply because after CITY OF STONE and SANCTUARY he had become such a tragic and sympathetic figure, you wanted to root FOR him, not against him. Also, I'm not sure, but I think a lot more of Macbeth's reverance for Arthur could have been shown. In fact, when he and Arthur are crossing swords (well, sword and mace) he says, "You will kneel to me" in an almost spiteful way. Of course, in the end, Mac shows himself to actually be a bigger man than Arthur when it comes to admiting defeat--he does so instantly, unlike Arthur who had to be coached (and I had never thought about the similarity to those who had challenged Arthur's legitimacy back in the legends).
Anyway, back to London. I agree with your reasonings for not giving Arthur a sword (though, personally, I would have preferred a double-bladed axe to a mace, but that's just me). I just love Arthur's surprise at a locked church--says a lot about how times have changed.
BTW, you said that one of Arthur's trips was to the Guggenheim in NYC--New York City, yes? I must say, I find that a bit surprising. Since he didn't run into the clan, I can only guess that it must've taken place during the day. And if I were him, I would have been more than a little cheesed-off that my path looped on me like that ("Aww, I just LEFT here!").
The Stone was a surprise, but cool (and I love Frank Welker's voice). If the Stone's speaking didn't surprise Arthur, though, I wonder what Arthur was reacting to when he gasped and lept back into Griff. He might have felt someone else in the room, I guess.
As for Griff's design, for the most part it's okay in this ep, except for where he recites the poem (nice poem, BTW). At this point, he loses his neck. It just looks like there's this huge LUMP in the middle of his shoulders that has a beak, eyes and a mohawk.
At any rate, I really like Arthur's portrayl (sp?) here. A lot of times in popular culture, it seems, he's turned into this infallible, wonderfully wise, Paladin-like character. While that is definitely a side of his personality, I like that it's only a side--Arthur is a human, and as such, imperfect. He's not terribly humble, he perfers acting to thinking (like you said), and continually refuses to accept the possibility that he may NOT be destined for Excalibur again. Actually, this makes him easier to identify with.
One bit I like: As Macbeth is performing the summon spell, Banquo yells over the wind and rain, "HE AIN'T PAYIN' US ENOUGH FOR THIS!" In hindsight, it's like a bit of foreshadowing for him and Fleance leaving Macbeth's service (and joining up with Castaway).
Arthur immediately recognizes Macbeth (no fond memories there), and Macbeth, of course, has no memory. I like how that doesn't really phase him, though.
The gargoyles expertly handle Macbeth and his goons (it's great how they disarmed them all in less than 5 seconds). Brooklyn displays his leadership of the clan when he opts to stay and collect "some answers" rather than pursue Macbeth.
And then the clan gets a big ol' 1-2-3 punch. 1) There's a gargoyle standing right in front of them--when they thought they were the last all this time. 2) King Arthur is there as well--THE King Arthur. 3) Both the gargoyle and King Arthur have seen their missing leader and friend, Goliath. It's a heck of a lot of information to take in, and that (coupled with their trying to find Excalibur and deal with Macbeth) kind of numbs them to the ramifications of Griff's very existence for the moment. Or, at least, that's my guess. I would have loved to hear them wonder whether or not Griff was the only other one.
One nit, here: The poem says "Ebon glass in emerald frame." And they (correctly) figure it's the lake, but the lake is just a dark blue. Ebon should be black. Oh, well.
Finally, we meet the Lady of the Lake. A fun little note, here: a few months ago, I turned some of my friends onto GARGOYLES, and sometimes they had interesting observations. One of them was along the lines of, "The Lady of the Lake would HAVE to be a Child of Oberon to have a body like THAT in the Dark Ages."
I like how Macbeth plugs in his crystal ball, and uses a monitor screen as his "scrying pool." Ah, the conveniences of modern technology.
Can't add much to what you've already said about the Water Djinn sequence, mostly because I find myself agreeing with you. Still, you guys only had 22 minutes or so to work with.
I got a kick out of the whole "Brooklyn" exchange. There are some inconveniences to being named after a location.
Like Todd, I was a bit surprised that Banquo (and Fleance as well, it seems) know about Macbeth's true identity. Mac must have a LOT of confidence in them.
At about this point, the Trio and Hudson largely take a backseat to the main action--Arthur and Griff vying with Macbeth for the sword. That's not to say that they don't have some good fight moments with Banquo and Fleance.
While it was never readily apparent that Banquo and Fleance were wearing power-suits, that knowledge does help explain a couple things I'd always wondered about: 1) How Banquo didn't lose his legs when Hudson hit them with what looked like the sword's cutting-edge, and 2) How Banquo wasn't crushed under the weight of both the tree AND Broadway.
Actually, Fleance seemed to be the more competent of the two in this battle--almost single-handedly taking out all four gargs. And she's got a tough hover-bike, one that crashes, but can still be used as stairs later on.
Griff encourages Arthur to continue fighting for Excalibur--yup, our king's found his first uber-loyal supporter.
The dragon...I am a BIG dragon buff, and I was indescribably pleased to see one in GARGOYLES, even if it was technically made of stone. The "vents" on the neck were an interesting and unique touch. And of course the whole "fight-and-flight" sequence was fun. The Trio and Hudson seemed to have the roughest time of it, being knocked back at the first, and then dodging fireballs while flying around the dragon's head, (Hudson whacking it with his sword...which right now reminds me of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where Lancelot whacks the French castle with his sword before retreating).
One thing that never ceases to amaze me is Griff's way of freeing Arthur--making the dragon drop him and then grabbing him by the *corner of his cape* as he starts to fall! Arthur never even blanched. Then again, this is the same guy who a few seconds later plunges his had into the magical fire to retrieve Excalibur. I loved that part, BTW.
Poor Macbeth looks so sad when he drops the remnants of the false sword. I like that Arthur asks Macbeth to join him. As I recall, that was something he often did in the old legends: make a friend and knight out of a former foe. Of course I also recall reading somewhere that Excalibur could burst into blue flame or some such thing, so what do I know?
Arthur pretty much states what his next quest is (find that old fart, Merlin), and then does something I didn't quite expect...he knights Griff. I have to admit, maybe it's a bit prejudiced on my part, but I never contemplated the idea of a gargoyle-knight. I like it though.
I didn't get the idea that this was a sort of "backdoor pilot" to a spin-off, but once I found out, it made perfect sense. If this ep was any indication, it was already shaping up to be a fine show.
There's my ramble, and tomorrow I start replying to EYE OF THE STORM.
I think you misunderstood me. The Stone sent him to the roof of the Guggenheim. I can't imagine that I said that he'd been there before. I don't think he'd been to Manhattan before. Of course, it's been two years, and I have no memory of what I wrote at all. But that seems unlikely.
In prior response you've indicated that the Ragnorak of the Norse Gods has already happened through its destruction was far less than it was in the Norse Sagas. So did you get your idea of having Ragnorak happening in the past from Roy Thomas's run of Thor where the Asgardians were revealed to be created by the survivors of the previous Ragnorak.
No. I never read Roy's run of Thor. (Though Roy and I worked together for a few years at DC Comics on books like All-Star Squadron, Secret Origins, Infinity, Inc. and Young All-Stars.)
I think it's a case of great minds thinking alike, if you assume Roy and I have great minds. Also, it's sort of a natural assumption. Ragnarok was written about in the Eddas. So it must have happened, right?
Got a question about Max Steel for you.
I know you don't want to hear summaries of episodes that you didn't do, but I have a question that you might be able to answer. In many of the episodes in Seasons 2 and 3, a major theme is that Josh uses less T-juice than Max because Josh doesn't have the superhuman powers (just extra sharp hearing and eyesight). However, I remember that in episode 4 (Sportsmen), Josh quit the Del Oro Extreme because he couldn't shut off his Max powers -- it was unfair and not a challenge. So, am I confused, or did the writers for seasons 2 and 3 make a mistake?
Oh, and I know you probably wouldn't want them, but in case anyone's interested, Max Steel Season 1 is on DVD. People in the U.K. can get them from http://www.streetsonline.co.uk/ . People in the U.S. and other countries will have to get them off eBay.
Thanks for your time.
I would want Max Steel Season 1 on DVD. Very much actually. I had no idea it was available. I'll try to find it. So thanks for the heads up.
As to your question, well... I'm going to have to say that there was a screw-up. Josh and Max weren't two different guys. Josh used his powers to change his appearance to look like Max, so that he wouldn't be recognized. But he had all his powers at all times. At least that's how we wrote it during Season One. Of course, I was fired after Season One, and who knows? Maybe that was why.
if the series was not canceled would lex and brooklyn have been able to find mates
Yes. And the series is now of course UNcancelled as a comic book. So if you're still wondering, check it out. Be patient. We'll get to all of this eventually.
Your ramble on "The New Olympians" got me wondering about the magical islands in the Gargoyles Universe. There almost seems to be a theme that all islands inherently have something "unnatural" about them (and often are home to the last surviving gargoyle clans). This would include the obvious ones like Avalon and New Olympus, but you could even include Scotland/England, Ireland, Queen Florence Island, Easter Island, Japan and Manhattan itself (I might even include Atlantis since you say it exists in the Gargoyles Universe in some form). Was this a conscious theme, or did islands simply get the spotlight in the Avalon Tour due to the easy access by skiff?
In a semi-related question, one of the big mysteries that you never really touched upon in the show is the nature of the Bermuda Triangle. In the Gargoyles Universe, does it have anything to do with one of the islands named above? Your comment about being disappointed that the New Olympus shield looked like a fog bank from outside got me thinking, since that is often how people are described getting lost in the Bermuda Triangle. Yet Avalon, too, seems shrouded in mist. Any comments?
It's not so much a theme -- and yet not merely a matter of convenience either -- but a factor of geography. Islands ARE more isolated, which gives rise to possibilities.
But it's not limited to islands. A remote locale like Tibet isn't an island, but might as well be, if you get the drift of my skiff.
I honestly haven't gotten to the Bermuda Triangle in my own head yet, vis-a-vis the Gargoyles Universe. For those of you who attended the 1997 Gathering, and saw the Radio Play that year (Rain of the Ghosts), you know I have another original property that covers that territory in some detail. So I haven't yet turned my attention to what approach I'd take for the Triangle in the Gargoyles Universe -- since I'd want some differentiation between Gargoyles and Rain. But all things are true.
j like gargoyles palun saadeke mulle golitah ,brookyln , lexi ,broadway.ühe groupis
1. After "Metamorphosis", where did the Mutates go before "The Cage"?
2. Did they had any adventures or was it just daily struggles to eat/sleep/shelter/hide?
3. Did they met aynone?
4. Did they contribute, intentionally or not, to the gargoyle urban legend?
5. Was there other reasons than the cure that made them return to Xanatos?
1. Off stage.
2. All of the above.
5. Nothing is without its complexities.
Just a comment: I couldn't help to notice that detective Ellen Yin from "The Batman" has the same the color schemes as Elisa Maza.
I've noticed that too. But I have to assume it's a coincidence. Red, black, blue isn't exactly an exotic choice for either character. I've worked on both series, and certainly, no one on The Batman has ever snuck up to me and whispered, "Ellen's a tribute to Elisa, you know."
Thanks for the ramble on "The New Olympians".
I've always had a soft spot for this episode, largely because I really like the notion of a whole society of "Greek mythology creatures/beings" out somewhere. I still hope that you can get to explore it some more later on; that spin-off sounded like a lot of fun.
Despite your mention of avoiding the actual gods for character models for the New Olympians (since the Greek gods were famous for looking too human to provide dramatic designs in the same way that a minotaur or centaur would), I did notice in the crowd scene (at the point when Helios is exaggeratedly coughing and retching in Elisa's presence) a woman carrying a bow who did bear a strong resemblance to Artemis (at least, as she's customarily depicted in myth-based art).
Ekidne at times struck me as almost channelling Demona in her cries of "Treacherous human!" and her eyes glowing red when angry. (Of course, Demona strikes me as another good case of "bigotry bringing about more bigotry", so it fits.)
Helios and Kiron's participation in the riot struck me as even worse than that of the other New Olympians; these guys are police, and should be discouraging such displays rather than encouraging them. (Whatever else you can say about Taurus, he had the decency to break up the demonstration outside Elisa's cell.)
Proteus struck me as a fun villain, with such lines as "They really don't like you, do they?" or his habit of tormenting Taurus by shape-shifting into his father. (I agree with you that Proteus doesn't seem to bother to do his homework; I'd caught all three of the flaws in his performance as Goliath that you'd mentioned - saying "Who's that guy?", providing a weak excuse for why he doesn't turn to stone in the daytime, and wanting to blow up New Olympus, which last - again - sounds more the sort of thing that Demona would do.) I also caught a moment when he's waving at Taurus with what appears to be an extra-large hand (which I assume is part of his shape-shifting again and not an odd-looking piece of animation).
One of my favorite bits is Elisa empathizing more with Taurus after discovering what they have in common - both police, and both have fathers who are police. Especially the bit where she wonders aloud how she'd respond if Peter Maza were to be killed in the line of duty.
Knowing your interest in Theseus, I certainly can't say that I'm surprised that one of the main New Olympian characters in the story would have a link to him, in the form of being descended from his most famous adversary. (Or that you'd do another take on Theseus and the Minotaur when you wrote an episode for Disney's animated Hercules series.)
The "humans of legend" bit reminds me slightly of a short story by J.R.R. Tolkien, "Farmer Giles of Ham"; in one scene, a giant is telling many other giants and dragons about his excursion into human territory, giving an exaggerated account of the food to be found there and of how little resistance one can expect from the local humans. The dragons promptly say eagerly "So knights are mythical, after all!"
Re your remarks about Talos - I wonder whether Talos could be described as truly prejudiced, being a robot rather than a flesh-and-blood being. (He certainly seemed the most pragmatic of the lot, as you put it.) Though, then again, maybe I'm displaying a bit of prejudice against robots and machines in not believing that they can develop feelings as humans and other flesh-and-blood beings can.
I'd caught the similarity of Goliath's "I cannot wage war upon an entire island" line to the earlier line "I cannot wage war upon an entire world" in "Awakening" - what made it most stand out to me is that the original line was spoken to Demona, and here he's saying something similar to Demona's daughter.
A neat little detail: the flying cars on New Olympus have little eyes painted in the front, just like those on an ancient Greek trireme.
Another of my favorite bits is Elisa's run-in with Helios, where she tells him about how Proteus is planning to blow up the island, leading to:
HELIOS: And you had to attack me to tell me that?
ELISA: Would you have listened to me if I'd just called you over?
HELIOS: Frankly, no!
Somehow I never spotted the hint of a spin-off at the end of this episode as I did for "Pendragon" - at least, not until I found out about the Master Plan. Now I find it an appealing idea, as I said above.
50 episodes down and only 16 to do. You're really making good progress on this one, Greg. Thanks.
I think I've only got three left now. Try to get to those soon.
I have a question concerning half-breeds. Perhaps you've answered it, but I've perused most of the questions concerning the third race, Oberon's children, and Fox. Anyway, if Merlin is the offspring of Oberon and a mortal human, does that make him immortal? Arthur seems intent on finding him at the end of the episode "Pendragon." Would this also mean that Fox, being the offspring of a similar union, is immortal? Does whether or not the immortal parent is male or female have any bearing on this?
The gender of the immortal parent has no bearing.
As for the rest, I've never said that Merlin was immortal, so you can't make assumption based on facts not in evidence.
Questions about Fox and Alexander's status have yet to be revealed.
I was reading your answers to the Oberon/Titanina Family trees (November 2004) and two things caught my attn:
"Lord Oberon married Titania (who became Queen Titania after Mab was overthrown). (Note: Oberon intentionally did not take the title of King. Retaining his "Lord" title is his semi-skewed attempt at being more... egalitarian.) "
-When you say that Titania 'became' queen while Oberon chose not to 'take' the title king- do you mean that Oberon's claim came from Titania and not from Queen Mab or his conquest of her? (Queen Mab is his mother, right?) Is Titania queen or queen consort?
I know in many cultures that seem to have inherited kingship the facts are actually differnt. Take Macbeth, for example: Luach was probably the first son to directly inheret a crown from his father in Scottish history. Macbeth's claim was as good as Duncun Canmore's, but Gruach came from an older line than either. Are Oberon's children similarly not straight forward? With near imortality succession probably doesn't come up all that much anyway.
You also wrote:
"Oberon also has at least two sons by mortal women: Merlin and the changeling boy from Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream". "
I cannot believe I didn't notice you saying that before! When I read/saw Midsummer, (one of very few plays I can't get into while reading but love to watch), I always assumed the boy was the mortal child of a beloved, all-to-mortal, devotee of Titania's. The complete disregard for the boy shown by Oberon stealing him away (both physically and magically from Titania's attention) always left Oberon a bit too scummy for me to be fully happy with the 'all the couples were reunited and lived happily ever after." (Though, I'm told if my knowledge of mythology were more complete I would know the royal mortal couple don't end so happily, or at least longly, either.)
If the boy was in fact Oberon's, than the disregard might be feigned as a ploy to get him from Titania. Oberon is immediately made less scummy.
Barage of questions:
1.In the Gargoyles universe, how true to the Shakespeare is the 'true' story?
2.Was Titania aware that the child was her husband's?
If so, was her care for the boy as innocent and real as they seem (to me) in the play?
3.What made Oberon father a child with a worshiper of his wife? Coincidence? Meaness? Was she a worshiper of Titania at the time or did that come after?
4.I think, but do not remember clearly, that the woman did not die in childbirth. What did she die of, and could Oberon have been of help preventing it? Did he try?
(My pet theory is that Titania has tried to help Renayrd out a bit in his illness, but there is only so much she can do without being obvious. And even if she were to use blatant magic, there is still only so much she can do. Medicine and healing, though we take it for granted, is still 'big magic'.)
5. What ever did happen to the changling after the events of the play? Or, if you don't want to go into specifics, is he alive or at least have a unnaturally long life?
Apropo of very little- last summer I caught a rather good preformance of Midsummer in a Shakespeare in the Park(ing Lot). (Not as good as their Richard II that they seemlessly reordered to make the first half as flashbacks during the second.) Uneven. but with real flashes of brillance. Instead of dual roles, they had the traditionally dual roles played by exchangable pairs. The Oberon and Titania I caught had fantastic presence.
Titania is Queen Consort, technically, but it's also a position of not a little authority at the top of the feudal pyramid, answerable ONLY to Oberon... and even he is somewhat reluctant to order his Queen around. Note that when the Weird Sisters report that everyone but Titania and Puck have arrived for the Gathering, Oberon immediately states that Titania may come and go as she pleases.
In any case, Oberon's claim to his throne comes from both being the son of Mab and being the one who took Mab down. It does not come via Titania.
As for your Midsummer Questions, this is a story I hope to tell one day, so I'm going to be stingier...
1. We'll have to see.
2. I prefer to leave the answer to this ambiguous.
3. She was already a worshipper. His motives... are also best left ambiguous for now.
4. I'm not revealing this now.
TOP 40 CHARACTER LIST:
Once AGAIN, I'm wasting my semi-valuable time (and hopefully yours) to bring you the latest update in my attempt to catalogue the most significant characters in the BUFFYVERSE. Previous CUMULATIVE updates covered the first, second and third years of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. After that, the task became more complicated as Buffy's fourth season aired simultaneously (day and date, literally) with the first season of Angel. So the Year Four update included Buffy S4 & Angel S1. Year Five covered Buffy S5 & Angel S2. Year Six, Buffy S6 & Angel S3. And now, Year Seven, which covers Buffy S7 & Angel S4.
As you may recall, I've tried to inform this subjective task with an objective formula. I tried, as much as possible, not to allow my knowledge of future events to influence the current standings. Still, I won't deny that subjectives have played a role. It's hard not to take extra notice of a character, whom you know is going to be important later. And ties were broken based entirely on subjective criteria.
The idea behind a cumulative tally is to mimic the original experience of following the Buffyverse. It's a horse race. Some of the winners and losers are decidedly predictable. Others are a bit surprising - surprising enough that it's become absolutely clear that my system is flawed. I've since dreamed up a new system, but it's too late to implement it. Someday, LONG after I've finished this first survey (but ONLY if I prove truly insane), I might just start over and see what the results are with OBJECTIVE SYSTEM 2.0. But for now - assuming you haven't nodded off - you're stuck with System One.
I have a list of ALL the characters that have appeared in both series up to this point. It's so long (including everything from leads to ridiculously minor characters) that I haven't even bothered to count how many there are. But my list of MOST significant currently tops out at 245 characters. (There will be one more update after this one, covering Year Eight, i.e. Angel Season Five, and maybe at the end of this silly game I'll do a countdown of all 245+ significant characters.)
But for now, I think listing the top 40 is both pleasantly traditional… and plenty. Or largely. I just want to note a few characters introduced (or revisited) in this set of episodes, who haven't yet or never will make the top 40, but whom I believe are memorable enough to merit honorable mention.
#235 - Knox. Scientist at Wolfram & Hart, intro'd here. The only one of the W&H Tour Guides in the Angel Season Finale that has a major role to play in Season Five.
#234 - John Stoler. The first poor bastard to see the real Jasmine.
#228, 229, 242, 243, 244, 245 - Girl at Bat, Trailer Girl, Japanese Girl, School Girl, Indian Girl, Potential with Power #2. This was of course the season that introduced all the potential slayers. Those that survived actually become Slayers at the end of the season, as did a number of girls out and about in the world. The most memorable of the latter is the little girl playing softball and perhaps the Trailer Park girl, who will not be beaten anymore.
#226 - Bruiser. Lorne's "prison guard" in Las Vegas. Makes the list only because they kept the character around across two episodes.
#212 - Delivery Guy. Wesley's arms-supplier and "Q" in a couple episodes. [That's a James Bond reference, not a Star Trek reference for the geek-confused.]
#205 - Guardian. The woman in a crypt, who had been waiting centuries to explain the Scythe to Buffy - and still largely failed to do so - cuz Caleb killed her while she was busy being cagey. The anti-Watcher, I guess. Seemed like a former Slayer to me, and the notion that a Slayer MIGHT live a long life - and break the rules, might have been both interesting and helped explain how Buffy came up with her multi-Slayer solution, but…
#200 - Young Woman. The woman that Spike bit, killed and sired across two episodes, while he had a chip and thus theoretically shouldn't have been able to harm anyone.
#190, 237, 238 - Connor's Dad, Mom and Kid Sister. After Connor acquires his new revised life (ala Dawn) we briefly meet his new family. The parents at least, return in Angel Season Five.
#181 - Virgin. The innocent girl that Conner and Cordelia murder (over Darla's dead body, so to speak) to bring Jasmine into the world.
#172 - Spike's Mother Anne - Spike turns out to be a mama's boy. He loves his mother. Sires her and then has to stake her - cuz she's just too darn upsetting.
#158 - Rachel. Rachel appeared at a party in a previous season, but they brought her back to force Anya into confronting her redemoning. I give them credit for using an existing character instead of creating a new one. I wish they had done this more. Though perhaps I'm the kind of guy, who overdoes it. I know I'm almost making a point of overdoing it in the Gargoyles comic. It's just more for me that way.
#156 - Lissa. Latest in a line of Demon's that Xander dates.
#115 - Wu Pang. The Monk who removed Angel's soul to bring forth Angelus.
#110 -The Ubervamp. Mr. Tough-to-Kill had an army of fellow Ubervamps in the Hellmouth who turned out to be much less difficult to slay.
#105 - Cassie Newton - A high school student, who predicted her own death - and later had a memorable turn as the First, who tried to trick Willow into suicide (when actress Amber Benson proved unavailable to reprise Tara as the First).
#78 - Gwen Raiden. An actual X-Men-esque mutant with electrical powers in the Buffyverse. I thought she was being set up as a potential love interest for Angel, but she wound up being a brief love interest for Gunn, before vanishing forever - or going on to co-star in Pitch Black II.
#53 - Caleb. The First's big bad misogynist faux-priest, better known as Mal Reynolds in Firefly/Serenity. He was great at REALLY making you hate his guts.
#49 - The Beast. Pre-Jasmine's right-hand creature. A real tough monkey to kill, with some nice moments too. But what was the purpose of most everything he did? Why was he or any of his actions necessary to Jasmine's birth?
#44, 52, 63, 75, 85, 138, 140, 145, 165, 174, 178, 236 - Amanda, Rona, Molly, Vi, Chloe, Shannon, Caridad, Injured Girl, Eve, Annabelle, Colleen. A list of all but one of the potential Slayers. Amanda was the nerdy Slayer from Sunnydale high. She had ten appearances and died in the Hellmouth - the one "meaningful" slayer death in that battle. Rona had eight appearances. She was the one who was supposed to be keeping things real, I think. Molly was one of the three original potentials. Caleb killed her. She had been around long enough that we were supposed to feel something there, but her death was overwhelmed by the loss of Xander's eye in the same battle. Cho An was the potential who spoke no English. Largely used for comic relief. Vi had six appearances. She was kinda goofy, but really took to becoming a Slayer at the end. I liked her. Chloe, who had three appearances, is the potential that committed suicide. She also got a scene as the First. (And she went on to play a second banana in Lizzy Maguire on the Disney Channel.) Shannon, in the first of her three appearances, is used to introduce us to Caleb. Caridad also had a trio of appearances, but is most noteworthy for being one of Xander's fantasy dream girls. The Injured Girl appeared twice and was indeed injured. Eve is noteworthy because we never met the REAL Eve. She was already dead and replaced by the First before we ever laid eyes on her. (In fact, she's the only identity the First took on in this season, where we hadn't yet met the person who the First was impersonating or personifying or whatever.) Annabelle is the commonsense Brit potential - one of the first three that we meet -- who panics and is the first potential to die in Sunnydale. Colleen is noteworthy mostly for going on to star in some prime time soap I don't watch and for being another of Xander's fantasy dream girls.
#41 - Jasmine, a.k.a. the Beast-Master a.k.a. Cordelia Chase. The big bad of Angel Season Four. While possessing Cordelia, I'm not really sure if all her various and ultra-complicated manipulations track. But she sure was fun once Gina Torres of Firefly took over the role. Oh, and one other point of interest. Peter Renaday did the voice for the Beast-Master in Angelus' head. Peter voiced a few minor roles in the five-part Gargoyles pilot ("Awakening") and was - briefly - the voice of David Xanatos. He replaced Jonathan Frakes, and then was in turn replaced BY Jonathan Frakes.
And before we start, a fond Top 40 farewell to the Master (now at #45), the Groosalugg (#47), Gavin Park (#42) and Forrest Gates (#43).
AND NOW THE TOP 40
Abbreviations for previous rankings…
Y1 - Buffy Season 1.
Y2 - Buffy Season 2.
Y3 - Buffy Season 3.
Y4 - Buffy Season 4/Angel Season 1.
Y5 - Buffy Season 5/Angel Season 2.
Y6 - Buffy Season 6/Angel Season 3.
NR - Not Ranked that year.
#40 - Graham Miller. Y6: 32. Y5: 28. Y4: 22. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Riley Finn's second best friend falls eight rankings. And yet it's amazing he's still in the Top 40 at all. Graham, in fact, does a great job - right off the bat - at demonstrating the flaws in this original scoring system. He had a ton of screen time in Season Four of Buffy, and then came back more than once in Season Five. And despite no appearances, since, he's totally coasting on that old screen time (which was clearly too big a piece of the original formula) as opposed to true significance.
#39 - Glory. Y6: 34. Y5: 30. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Year Five's big bad drops 5 more rankings. I'm bummed that some of the season-long Big Bads like Adam and the Master aren't staying in (or in Jasmine's case even cracking) the Top 40. It feels like Big Bads deserve to be here. But again, a system skewed toward screen time is gonna favor supporting characters over villains. But I'm still glad Glory is hanging on.
#38 - Kennedy. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Kennedy, potential Slayer, eventual Co-Slayer and Willow's new main squeeze - or I should say squeezer - enters the countdown at 38 with a bullet. Of course, Kennedy is no Tara, but I think that was the point. So I certainly don't begrudge her knocking Groo, Gavin or Forrest out. (But I miss the Master.)
#37 - Maggie Walsh. Y6: 31. Y5: 27. Y4: 18. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. And Maggie Walsh? Maggie? Really? Adam doesn't make it, but his creator Maggie does, though she's dropped 6 slots in the ratings.
#36 - Mayor Richard Wilkins III. Y6: 33. Y5: 29. Y4: 19. Y3: 14. Y2: 40. Y1: NR. The Mayor loses only 3 rankings, thanks to some appearances by the First in Mayor guise, which gave him partial points. (Figuring out scoring for the First in its various glamours was really hard.) Gotta love the Mayor.
#35 - Ben. Y6: 30. Y5: 26. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Glory's alter ego drops five places. Again, like Maggie being ahead of Adam, there's really something wrong with Ben being ahead of Glory. It's about screen time, not actual character significance or OOMPH.
#34 - Jenny Calendar. Y6: 29. Y5: 25. Y4: 17. Y3: 13. Y2: 11. Y1: 15. Jenny also falls five rankings. Says something about Jenny's original significance that a non-regular like her is holding on for so long. And of course she was pretty much the first character we ever saw as the First, way back in Y3.
#33 - Harmony Kendall. Y6: 28. Y5: 23. Y4: 25. Y3: 20. Y2: 26. Y1: 18. Harmony also falls five rankings this year to her lowest point yet, thanks to two consecutive years without an appearance. Of course, Harm is poised for a resurgence in the last season of Angel.
#32 - The First. Y6: 143. Y5: 120. Y4: 85. Y3: 52. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. The original evil hasn't shown its face since Season Three. So it jumps up a whopping 111 ladder rungs to #32. I was never satisfied with the First, especially in the Season Finale, but I can't deny that he/she/it belongs in the Top 40.
#31 - Warren Meers. Y6: 36. Y5: 82. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Warren actually jumps up 5 rankings, which is a pretty neat trick for a dead guy. Credit the First, Willow and some flashbacks for keeping him "alive" and hopping.
#30 - Kate Lockley. Y6: 27. Y5: 22. Y4: 23. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Angel's cop friend is gone and largely forgotten now… She falls three rankings.
#29 - Lindsey McDonald. Y6: 26. Y5: 21. Y4: 29. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lindsey has hit the road, and having also been absent for two seasons, falls three rankings too. But like Harmony, watch for a comeback in Angel S5 (a.k.a. Buffyverse Y8).
#28 - Daniel Holtz. Y6: 25. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Captain Holtz, Angel's Big Bad for the previous Season (or surrogate, if you're counting Connor as the finale's final big bad) falls 3 rankings. His influence still very much felt.
#27 - Francis Doyle. Y6: 23. Y5: 20. Y4: 15. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Doyle falls four ranks. I'm surprised he got not even a mention in A4, given how Cordelia's fate largely is a result of his actions. But Jasmine-as-Cordelia was a bit of a mess in the does-this-really-track department.
#26 - Principal Robin Wood. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Talk about bullets. Robin Wood, son of Slayer and Spike-victim, Nikki Wood, enters the countdown at 26 with a bullet. This is a character that I would have LOVED to have seen a spin-off built around. D.B. Woodside is great; Wood has no super-powers, just training. And I would like to know who Robin's dad was and what happened to him. And the fact that a Slayer could survive long enough to have a kid… Loved this idea.
#25 - Jonathan Levinson. Y6: 24. Y5: 33. Y4: 24. Y3: 17. Y2: 19. Y1: NR. Jonathan, killed in his first appearance of the season, still manages to hang on - thanks to flashbacks and the First - to the Top 25, dropping only one ranking. Jonathan, you will be missed.
#24 - Andrew Wells. Y6: 37. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Andrew, the definite third wheel of last Season's Evil Trio, jumps 13 rankings to #37, passing both Warren and Jonathan in the process. (It helps to be the only one actually left alive, I guess.). Really comes into his own this season… and one of the few Buffy characters (beyond Spike) to actually make an appearance in Y8.
#23 - Principal Snyder. Y6: 21. Y5: 18. Y4: 12. Y3: 9. Y2: 10. Y1: 12. Snyder falls two ranks but nevertheless manages to stay ahead of Principals Wood and of course Flutie (who, in case you were curious, is now down at #69).
#22 - Drusilla. Y6: 19. Y5: 16. Y4: 16. Y3: 11. Y2: 8. Dru has a few nice flashbacks and First appearances, but still falls three rankings and out of the Top Twenty for the first time.
#21 - Darla. Y6: 18. Y5: 19. Y4: 28. Y3: 23. Y2: 23. Y1: 11. Darla also loses three rankings and again falls out of the Top Twenty, despite a great ghost scene with Connor. Love Darla.
#20 - Lilah Morgan. Y6: 22. Y5: 31. Y4: 31. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lilah climbs two more positions to finally crack the Top Twenty. Dead now, she'll peak here, but this was really a great season for her. She finally seems to be a woman IN CHARGE. A creature of depth and poignancy. Particularly after her death.
#19 - Faith. Y6: 20. Y5: 17. Y4: 13. Y3: 10. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Faith, back with a vengeance in both Angel AND Buffy, rises one ranking. But she's done too now, I think.
#18 - Connor. Y6: 41. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Connor enters the Top Twenty after jumping 23 rungs. He's a huge pill this season, but he'll be much more fun in his limited appearances next year.
#17 - Riley Finn. Y6: 15. Y5: 12. Y4: 11. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Riley falls two more rankings. There was an opportunity, as Buffy and Spike revisit the Initiative to have brought him back, but I think they wisely thought that would be too distracting and off-point.
#16 - Tara Maclay. Y6: 13. Y5: 15. Y4: 20. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Tara moves down three rungs. According to the extras on the DVD, they wanted her to appear again as the First, but she wasn't available. But what the heck has Amber Benson been up to since? I never see her, and she is still so missed.
#15 - Lorne. Y6: 17. Y5: 24. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lorne finally becomes a regular and jumps a couple rankings.
#14 - Joyce Summers. Y6: 14. Y5: 11. Y4: 9. Y3: 8. Y2: 7. Y1: 7. Joyce appears as the First and maintains the exact same ranking.
#13 - Daniel "Oz" Osbourne. Y6: 12. Y5: 9. Y4: 7. Y3: 7. Y2: 12. Y1: NR. Oz falls one more ranking to his lowest point yet.
#12 - Winifred "Fred" Burkle. Y6: 16. Y5: 50. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Fred climbs up 4 positions, but she's still got room to climb, I think. Can she pass Dawnie next season?
#11 - Dawn Summers. Y6: 11. Y5: 14. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Dawn plateaus at 11.
#10 - Charles Gunn. Y6: 10. Y5: 13. Y4: 37. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Gunn plateaus at 10. Can he pass Anya next season?
#9 - Anya Kristina Emanuella Jenkins. Y6: 9. Y5: 10. Y4: 14. Y3: 22. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Anya plateaus at 9, but being dead and on a cancelled series, I'm not sure if she can maintain.
#8 - Wesley Wyndam-Price. Y6: 8. Y5: 8. Y4: 10. Y3: 15. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Wesley plateaus at #8. I know it must seem like everyone's plateauing this high up, but wait for it…
#7 - Spike. Y6: 7. Y5: 7. Y4: 8. Y3: 12. Y2: 9. Y1: NR. Okay, STILL plateauing. But trust me… (And Spike's crossing over to Angel, so he may have somewhere to go still.)
#6 - Rupert Giles. Y6: 5. Y5: 3. Y4: 3. Y3: 2. Y2: 2. Y1: 2. Giles does not plateau. He falls one ranking, which this high up is quite significant.
#5 - Willow Rosenberg. Y6: 5. Y5: 6. Y4: 6. Y3: 4. Y2: 4. Y1: 4. Willow switches places with Giles, returning to the Top Five for the first time since Season 3. She'll peak here, putting her behind both Cordelia and Xander, which surprises me. As she was a Big Bad. And as she really should be equal with Xander, it demonstrates another significant flaw in the system. But at least she's in the Top Five.
#4 - Cordelia Chase. Y6: 4. Y5: 5. Y4: 4. Y3: 5. Y2: 5. Y1: 5. Back to Plateauing. Cordelia of course spends half a season as the Big Bad, but as she was pregnant in real life, she then spends the end of the season in a coma. They basically destroyed her character this season. A combination of the real life pregnancy, bad hairstyles and a coupling with Connor that's just too creepy and off-putting to even work as the actions of a villain. But she'll be back for one wonderful final appearance next season.
#3 - Xander Harris. Y6: 2. Y5: 2. Y4: 2. Y3: 3. Y2: 3. Y1: 3. Xander drops down one ranking. He's never been out of the Top Three and I think he'll PROBABLY finish here.
#2 - Angel. Y6: 3. Y5: 4. Y4: 5. Y3: 6. Y2: 6. Y1: 6. Angel moves up one ranking, finally passing Xander. And he has another season, and Buffy does not. Is it possible that by the end of Year Eight… that Angel might even pass Buffy to become the most important character in Buffy's own 'verse?
#1 - Buffy Anne Summers. Y6: 1. Y5: 1. Y4: 1. Y3: 1. Y2: 1. Y1: 1. Duh. But now that she's done… can she hold the top spot forever?
Thanks for the ramble on "Eye of the Storm", Greg! This is another episode that I'm very fond of, especially because of the Norse mythology elements (which I've long been interested in, ever since reading the d'Aulaires' "Norse Gods and Giants" as a boy). While I had from the start taken a strong interest in the Eye of Odin on account of its name, I had not even suspected, before this episode aired, that this really was the very eye that Odin had given up for a drink from Mimir's well. And the revelation that it was definitely excited me.
I'd suspected that the Sturlissons were named after Snorri for some time; thanks for confirming it for me.
This episode answered one question that I'd had about the Eye for some time. I'd noticed the dark effect that it had had upon Fox and the Archmage, but I also knew that both of them had been "bad guys" before they ever donned it. So I was wondering what impact the Eye would have upon a "good person" who donned it, and whether it would corrupt them or not. This episode definitely answered my question, and made it clear that nobody was safe with the Eye except for Odin himself.
(As I mentioned in an earlier remark here, the Eye in this episode reminds me a bit of the One Ring in "The Lord of the Rings". Odin is attempting to recover his Eye for (more or less) the same reason that Sauron was attempting to recover the Ring; much of his power had passed out of it when he parted with it, and he needed to regain it to recover his old strength. And the impact that the Eye had on Goliath paralleled the element of how anybody who would try to use the Ring to defeat Sauron would become corrupted enough by it to become almost another Sauron. There's even the "eye imagery" in both cases. Of course, a major difference between the two stories is that giving the Eye back to Odin turned out to be the right thing to do - not to mention that Sauron definitely wouldn't have apologized to Frodo afterwards for all the trouble that he'd caused in trying to get the Ring back.)
I still find it a bit ironic that Odin would be ruefully admitting, at the end, that he was out of practice in dealing with mortals; in the original Norse myths, he was the only one of the Aesir who regularly interacted with humans much. All the other gods seemed to have dealings mainly with the other mythical races (dwarves, frost giants, etc.); Odin alone took part in human actions, often turning up in the human-centered sagas in his "old wanderer" disguise (such as thrusting the sword meant for Sigmund and Sigurd in the pillar of the Volsungs' hall, advising Sigurd on the correct means of slaying Fafnir, or engaging in a riddle-game with King Heidrek and winning when he asked a riddle - "What did Odin whisper in the ear of his dead son Balder?" - that only he knew the answer to). I can't help but think that if Odin's getting rusty in dealing with mortals, it's a good thing that Goliath and Co. didn't run into any of the other Norse gods while they were in Norway.
As I've also mentioned before, I was initially a bit disturbed by both Odin and the "Odinized Goliath" wearing horned helmets, since the series had shown earlier, in its character designs for Hakon and his Viking followers, that Vikings didn't actually wear those helmets, so my response was one of "The animators know better than that." I've come to accept this more, however, since both Odin and Goliath are "fantasy beings" rather than human Norsemen, and could be expected to dress more in accordance with popular notions about how Vikings dressed.
I hadn't picked up on the callousness of how Goliath spoke of transporting Bronx and Angela, but I did notice a couple of other acts of Goliath's while wearing the Eye which did, for me, serve as "danger signals". One was the way that he spoke when he was eagerly talking about seeing the sun for the first time; he delivered it in a very "over-the-top" fashion, almost straight out of Sevarius's style. (Though "over-the-top" in a good acting way, of course.) The other came when he, while reassuring Elisa that he was under control, patted her on the head in a very patronizing fashion.
(One thing that I'd really like to know was how conscious Goliath was of his motivations. Was he aware that his goal was to dispose of Odin so as to remove his chief rival claimant to the Eye, or did he believe that he was doing it to protect Elisa and the others, with his true motives buried deep below the surface without his being conscious of them?)
Perhaps the one thing about Odin getting his eye back that I find a bit of a pity is that his having one eye (and, as per the cartoon, in the original Norse myths, this was a feature that he had no matter what form he took on) was a major distinguishing feature of his; Odin having two eyes again feels to me, well, just a bit like Owen's stone hand returning to normal. But it certainly provided a great way to write the Eye of Odin out of the series.
I don't think the Eye-influenced Goliath was very self-aware at all.
As for Odin regaining his eye, I'll admit to a pang or two visually. But change is inevitable, and I think that the difference is that we KNOW Odin as one-eyed. Giving him back his eye is in fact change. Giving Owen back his hand is not allowing change.
Or at least that's how it feels to me.