A Station Eight Fan Web Site
JEFF BENNET and frank welker are profesional voice actors. what are they like?
(i.e. they're both very sweet.)
Just out of curiosity: if #3 and #4 had been done as a television episode of "Gargoyles", whom would you most liked to have cast in the roles of the two leading new characters introduced in those issues (the young woman in the Labyrinth and the White House steward who's a member of the Illuminati)?
I have voices in my head, but for the time being I'm making a conscious choice to leave them to reader imagination.
1. While #1 and 2 gave us some new scenes and had some occuring in a different order than "The Journey", was there anything that just didn't make the cut in the episode or the comic?
2. Do any of the voice actors as well as others who worked on the show pick up the comic as well?
2. Don't know.
(Lexington boots up his computer, signs onto the 'net, types in a web address, and there we see it)
ISSUE 2: THE JOURNEY
"Medieval scholar Lennox Macduff," eh? What research does he do? Read his old diaries?
On that note, the irony of A.D.A Yale's statements, nicely contrasted by the events happening in our story, have always amused me - especially "Our children are not safe!"
Xanatos, Mr. Duval, and the Illuminati - I have to admit, I don't think I ever really understood what was going on here from the TV version - I think I always assumed that Alex's piggyback ride was on the way to the phone, Xanatos following Owen's implied advice. But here, his smirk makes the point much clearer - it's not wise to ceep the Illuminati waiting, but Xanatos doesn't care. Baby Alex needs some daddy time!
But I can just see Owen back at the phone: "I'm sorry, Mr. Duval, I'm afraid that Mr. Xanatos is in the middle of something vitally important - it cannot wait, and requires his full attention. He hopes you understand."
Broadway and Angela - I don't recall the TV version calling it a reading lesson, so nice touch there. But I don't think that Shakespeare is the best material to learn to read (and frankly, I'm not that fond of reading Shakespeare at all - seeing it, however, is another story).
Angela's been off of Avalon for the better part of a year, but still, like Broadway with literacy, she has so much to learn.
Semi-random thought: How's Hudson's progress towards learning to read? I don't remember seeing anything of that since High Noon.
Brooklyn's line - "Parting is such sweet sorrow" - knowing what I do now, I wonder if this was a subtle foreshadowing of Timedancer - he parts with the Clan for forty years, but finds love.
After Vinnie leaves, Goliath's statement about life is very true - life is a journey, and the road is often hard. But we can't let that stop us, for each new day brings an exciting new adventure. Don't think about the journey's end, because as someone said, destination is a state of mind.
Not much else to say, now. Some people have commented that they miss the voices, but I can here them still, playing in my head with perfect clarity - right down to Margot Yale's voice not being Marina's.
So, to Greg Weisman, and everyone else at Creature Comics: keep up the good work.
(Lex logs off, and shuts down the computer.)
In my mind, Margot is always played by Marina. Tress is a wonderful actress of course, but Margot is Marina.
I just recently found this site, and am posting for the first time. I'd like to say that this provides a very nice opportunity to fans.
I also think that if you get to do the Halloween double date story, there would be an appropriate symmetry to Elisa's date being Morgan because between the four characters there are only two actors. Of course I realize that, the way things are, the most likely way for the story to appear would be in the new comic book, which doesn't have any actors.
In my head, there are always actors. I try to hear the voices...
Of course, starting in issue #3 we introduce new characters, one of whom has a speaking part, so I cast the character in my head, so I could hear her voice as well.
More new characters speak in issue #4, and I cast them too.
Keeps me honest.
Thanks for your "Possession" ramble, Greg. (Just think - all that you've got left is "Hunter's Moon" and you're done with Season Two!) A few comments.
That opening with Xanatos hunting Coldstone down in the Himalayas makes more sense to me now that I know about that Marvel Comic story that you were going to write but never got to do.
The first time that I saw the episode, I initially thought that what Xanatos and Owen were trying to do (and needed more than technology to do) was repairing Coldstone after the damage done in the recent battle, but afterwards I understood that their goal was transferring Desdemona and Iago to Coldfire and Coldsteel. (And I agree that it would be like Xanatos to say "Chin up" to Coldstone while his head is disconnected from the rest of him.)
I like Alex's winged teddy bear, too.
I agree that Coldfire is a much better name than Goldfire; it certainly fits the pattern with Coldstone and Coldsteel in the way that Goldfire wouldn't. (It even makes me wonder how "Goldfire" was even a candidate to begin with.)
Another thing that I picked up on in later viewings was the consequences of Brooklyn's "Me three - except that you don't need three" line.
One of the big elements for me in the episode is how the voice actors demonstrate their versatility (as you pointed out); instead of taking the customary approach in cartoons of "when people switch minds, they also switch voice actors", we here got to hear, say, Bill Faggerbakke and Brigitte Bako altering their delivery to sound more like Michael Dorn and C. C. Pounder. And it was a very admirable performance.
One of my favorite bits: Puck-as-Coldstone saying, "Naughty, naughty, sneaking up like that on Uncle Coldstone". (As much from how Dorn delivered it as from the actual words.)
And I think that we can all agree that this is just the way that Puck *would* educate Alex.
Again, thanks for the ramble.
I can never praise our voice cast (and voice director) Jamie Thomason enough. We were constantly presenting them with new challenges, and they ALWAYS rose to the occassion.
I just read your ramble on "The Reckoning," which is one of my favorite episodes, and just wanted to contribute my two cents. Ever since "Sanctuary," I had been wondering what would happen when Demona and Angela met again, and I'm happy to say that this episode did not disappoint. For an episode with a very large supporting cast (that also introduced several new characters to boot), it carried itself amazingly well.
It flowed wonderfully, and as you pointed out, contained a lot of memorable lines. Jim Belushi is not my favorite actor, but I loved him as the voice of Fang. I think Fang just might be one of his best roles. His delivery of the one-liners was superb.
If I had to pick a favorite visual moment, it would have to be the shot of Demona, Thailog, and the clones right before the end of the second act. It was like looking at a negative photographic image of Goliath's clan. Very chilling.
A few things I found interesting: Thailog and Sevarius in the same room together. I suppose it's not too surprising, since mentally, Thailog was programmed with Xanatos's slant on life. Xanatos kept the gargoyles alive because he thought they'd be useful (or I'm just going by what he told Goliath at the end of "City of Stone"). Similarly, I'm wondering if that was Thailog's line of thinking when Sevarius was hired to engineer the clones: the doctor does come in handy.
Also, concerning the relationship between Demona and Angela: I think that Demona does love Angela. But I find it interesting that she told Goliath to save their daughter instead of doing it herself. The thing she seemed more solidly focused on was punishing Thailog, because Thailog had just delivered a double whammy by not only ending their relationship, but also splicing her DNA with the human she seems to hate most. It almost looks like Demona loves revenge more than Angela. I look forward to seeing what happens between them in the comic. Your comments on those three small words were very intriguing.
All in all, a very well-done episode that exceeded my expectations. I will be posting comments on the new comic at a later date, but for now, let me just say thanks, and best of luck with your future endeavors.
Jim is also an extremely nice guy and really fun to work with. And I tend to agree with you. Fang may have been one of his best cast roles ever.
Sunday, June 25, 2006: 3RD DAY OF THE GATHERING OF THE GARGOYLES
So how is everything going? Good I hope. Only one more day of Gathering of the Gargoyles. I'm sure everyone is having a great time out there at the gathering. Everyone must be really busy trying to get to everything there. Just curious, but how many sessions are going on out there? Do people have time inbetween sessions to do anything else? Did you do any sight seeing in L.A.? I hear that next year the gathering will be in Tenessee near the Smokey Mountains. That would be so cool to go to. There must be a lot of sight seeing to do for the next gathering, that is if you have time to get away from the convention. I've been to Tennessee once up in the Smokey Mountians. I barely remember it, but the few pictures I have in my mind are of very beautiful scenery. I can picture the mountains with dark clouds around the top of them. Maybe I can get a plane ticket and head out there next year not only for the gathering, but to recharge my memory of the scenery. I think that if there was another gargoyle clan out there in the U.S. (besides the Manhattan clan), they should be located in a place like that. The mountains would be great cover, and there are little towns all around in there that they could protect if they felt the need to. I'm really hoping that I can convince someone to go with me now that I'm getting myself psyched for the Smokey Mountains.
Since the gathering is almost over for 2006, I might as well get your opinion on it. Did you think that the turn out was better or worse this year than other gatherings? Did a lot of voice talents from the Gargoyles show come to the convention? By the way, how many of these gatherings have you attended? I know that this one in 2006 is the 10th annual one, but did you go to the first few, like the 1st or 2nd gathering? Who exactly started these gatherings (don't just say fans, please)? Do you think that more talents from the show will come to next years (2007) gathering?
Well, now that I've questioned you out, I might as well mention a few things that happened today since this is sort of a journal of what's going on during the gathering. Today is Sunday, so of course church. After that, we (my family) had tacos and I slept for a couple of hours. I woke up to find nothing great on TV or on TIVO. Later, my parents and I watched some murder mystery movie where some woman was being tricked into thinking she was crazy by her husband and best friend so they could get rid of her and get all her money that she'd made. It was interesting. Not as good as it would have been to be at the gathering (I had to throw that in there).
When I mentioned church, it got me thinking. I know religion is a touchy subject for a lot of people, but I was wondering if any gargoyles were religious in some way. If they are, do they practice human religions or do they have one of their own? I could see a clan living in a big church building with the stain glass windows and such, with them posing on top on the steeple or roof during the day and then protecting the town at night. I can just imagine the picture in my head. It would look rather gothiky though.
Now that's my ramble/journal for today. Just one more for tomorrow. I'm sure you'll miss my long talks about nothing (probably not). I hope all is well, and thank you for your time.
Turn out for 2006 was high for a Gathering. Having the con in L.A. always helps, because we can get a TON of special guests (because they're all local) that we couldn't afford to bring to a more distant location. Someone from the Gathering would have to give you exact figures, but I believe the attendance was probably our second highest ever - second only to G2001, which was also in L.A.
We did have quite a few voice actors, including Keith "Goliath" David, Thom "Lexington" Adcox, Brigitte "Angela" Bako, Elisa "Obisiana" Gabriellie, Morgan "Petros" Sheppard, Jim "Dingo" Cummings and others. Plus quite a few voice actors from WITCH and other shows as well.
I've attended all TEN Gatherings. It might seem like quite an achievement, but really it's all thanks to the fans, who pay my way for every non-L.A. convention and put me up (and put up with me) at the L.A. cons. There are a handful of fans whom have also been to all ten conventions. They are my heroes.
"Who exactly started these gatherings (don't just say fans, please)?" - Okay, I won't say fans. I'll say FAN. May "Elisa Maza" Li (I hope I'm spelling that correctly) was THE fan that got the ball rolling by almost single-handedly organizing the first Gathering in NYC. Burned her out so much that she didn't attend again until this past year, when she was given the Fan Guest of Honor award. Of course since then there's been a long list of people who have contributed. I'd list 'em, but I'm sure I'd forget some people, and I don't want to offend.
For info on Gargoyles religion -- which is both Animistic and Monotheistic -- check the archives under GARGOYLE CUSTOMS.
In a word, the comic is phenomenal.
I should point out that I was in the show's target demographic during its first run (not so much anymore, just graduated college). I was skeptical about how it would work as a comic book, but that all melted away when I bought Gargoyles #1. It was pure joy.
First off, I think that translating "The Journey" as the first several issues works extremely well. For the first time, I feel like we're finally seeing what's going on in your head, without the watchful eye of S&P censoring what we see. We all knew that something like the "monster-loving whore" commen was missing in "The Journey;" you can't really show racism unless you can show the bigotry that goes with it. And Elisa's response is very Elisa-esque.
Finally seeing the Matt/Chavez scene was a treat for fans who could only read it here up until now. And for that matter, I think we all knew that Elisa wore something sexier to bed than that old-woman nightgown.
What looks good in comic form: The Gargoyles escaping from the clock tower. Castaway blowing up his statue (which thankfully doesn't look like Goliath anymore). Sunsets. The recap spread on page 12-13 is gorgeous, and makes me wonder if we'll see something analagous to Keith David's narrative intro in each issue.
I might (and I stress MIGHT) go so far as to suggest after just one issue that the comic format serves Gargoyles better than animation. Of course, there are drawbacks. We lose the magnificent voice work of some of these actors. We lose the Keith David-narrated show opening. We lose the ability to show some of the character's aerial moves in action. But the advantages are huge. Storylines aren't constricted to 22 minute, and S&P isn't compromising the story you're trying to tell. In fact, because it's completely common for a comic franchise to have more than one title in print at once, I feel like series like Timedancer and 2198 were made for this kind of thing.
Anyway, that's just my two cents as a fan. The comic format seems very natural for Gargoyles, which is a relief. Clearly, I'm looking forward to new stories in #3 more than anything else. All in all, thumbs up on the comic.
I'm personally LOVING doing Gargoyles as a comic. I miss the voice work too, but I do feel that our series' voice work was so strong and distinctive, that if I do my job right (writing the dialogue) that you can almost HEAR the voices (and the music) in your head. That's my goal anyway. That and doing radio plays at the Gathering, (hopefully with some of the cast present).
When this ep first aired, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.
We had Wolf going after Goliath and Hudson along with Hakon-in-an-axe, and some other guy along the fringes as just comedy relief (these are my initial impressions, mind you). Nothing much more than fighting goes on, along with the revelation that Wolf is Hakon's descendent (and I may be alone, but I rather like that connection).
Regardless, the end made me laugh out loud (and I loved the in-joke of Vinnie humming the theme song).
Over time, I've come to view this episode as being perhaps the most problematic of the series...but I enjoy watching it.
I agree with you on the inherent problems of the piece, Greg. The animation was disappointing--the fight scenes were serviceable but not really involving for the most part, and some comedy was nearly lost. It took a couple viewings before I noticed that Goliath elbowed Hudson in the face while preparing to hit Wolf--the hits occur too quickly for the joke to really pay off--and the second time Goliath nearly elbows Hudson doesn't read that way to me (it just seems awkward that second time).
Then there are the missed opportunities. The mace, of course, is the biggest. As nice as the "battle-axe night" line sounds, I'd rather have the mace. Actually, there could still be a fun line put in there, I think. Maybe not "mace night," Todd's right that doesn't have the same ring to it, but Wolf doesn't strike me as picky about specific terms for melee weapons. "Tonight is CLUB night" would have a nice double meaning to it, or "Tonight is WARHAMMER night" (probably please fans of that old pen-and-paper RPG of the same name). Sorry, I digress.
And yes, I would have liked more resonance to Hudson's battle with Hakon. You get a *little* of "Hudson taking revenge" when he gives a little chuckle as he leaves Hakon trapped in the crusher, but I would have liked more. Love the "clan-slaughterer" title, though.
These complaints aside, I rather enjoy the episode. Vinnie actually helps. It's nice to see what happened to a supposedly "random" person due to the gargoyles' actions. I raised an eyebrow at ret conning him into the role of "big nose" on Air Fortress 1, but I was willing to shrug my shoulders and go with it. I had not seen THE CAGE when I first saw VENDETTAS so the bit with Sevarius getting kidnapped left me mystified and frustrated (it did not stop me from thinking Talon was the kidnapper when I finally did see CAGE, he and Goliath have *very* similar silhouettes).
At any rate, I did like the idea of a "regular person" taking on the gargs. Losing his motorcycle and TWO jobs as well--heck, I'D demand satisfaction for that, too! And I believed Mr. Carter was a real gun (loved the Acme reference, BTW--didn't get the "Kotter" reference because that was before my time). Of course, neither Vinnie nor his gun is quite "regular." Vinnie explains himself (justifies himself, I guess) to Mr. Carter, earning stares from people passing him on the street. Vinnie doesn't seem to notice, though. Of course, not paying attention is what gives him such a difficult night to begin with. My favorite is where he tells "Mr. C" about the second job he lost and then turns around the corner and is surprised that the gargs are gone (as though the world stops when he reminisces). I guess this is part of your point on vengeance, Greg; Vinnie is so wrapped up in "creaming" Goliath--"the Big One"--that he doesn't notice imminent hurt/humiliation until it happens.
But he does not give up! When all other foes are defeated, Vinnie is still the last man standing! I'll come back to him before the end.
On to Hakon and Wolf. I didn't immediately cotton to Hakon being the axe. I noticed it laughed in the car and sounded similar to Wolf, but only when Hakon appeared as himself at the end of Act 1 did I realize who it was.
And Hakon has a LOT of powers. I guess it's a combination of being around for 1,000 years in a magical cave, being full of hate, and possessing a blood descendent that allows him to do what he does with Wolf's body. Flight telekinesis, disappearing, illusions (Hudson sees Goliath as Wolf), and the ability to become insubstantial…I wouldn't mind being able to do that! Hakon was right; Wolf was a fool to give up that power before the gargs were defeated. Of course, Wolf's always been a bit bull-headed about doing things his way and being in charge.
I had no problems with Wolf being descended from Hakon. Quite the contrary, I saw a wealth of opportunity in this development. Of course, Wolf and Hakon don't specifically tell anyone but the audience about this connection so I don't know how anything would develop. But the seed's there.
One interesting point that's made about vengeance in this episode: sometimes, the feelings of vengeance are not mutual. Hudson views Hakon as the ultimate evil, but Hudson barely matters to Hakon--the old gargoyle is just another obstacle to get to Goliath. To Wolf, Goliath, the "alpha male" gargoyle, is the ultimate target, but I somehow doubt if Goliath views Wolf that way. He views Wolf as a powerful and tenacious enemy, sure, but I don't think Goliath singles Wolf out from the rest of the Pack as a "prime" foe. As for Goliath and Hakon, yes there is resonance there, and in the past Hakon was definitely a focal point of Goliath's vengeance, but I think after SHADOWS OF THE PAST, Goliath's enmity for Hakon is no longer as strong. Hakon on the other hand, has lost no hatred for Goliath.
And none of them have any clue that Vinnie even exists until he walks right up to Goliath and shoots a pie in G's face.
That last part still puts a smile on my face. I had not expected the pie, but in a way it makes perfect sense. Why would Vinnie want to KILL Goliath? The gargoyles have humiliated Vinnie multiple times, cost him property and two jobs, but he's still alive, in good health, and not TOO badly off if he can afford Mr. Carter. Based on that, a pie in the face seems a reasonable retaliation.
One bit of dialogue I rather like in this episode is this one:
Wolf: "Come on, are you afraid to die like a man?"
Goliath: "What would a mutate werewolf know about being a man?"
That, coupled with the scene of Wolf scrounging for food in a dumpster, show just how far this former TV idol has fallen. And all just to get Goliath.
I find Hakon's "death" an interesting contrast to the Captain's back in SHADOWS OF THE PAST. With the Captain it was a feeling of peace and ascendancy. Hakon's seems more violent (I love the little electric bolt at the end). It makes sense to me.
I hadn't realized this epsiode had a different voice director until I saw the credits. Honestly, there was no decline in quality so far as I could tell. So take a bow, Greg. And if you see Clancy Brown, tell him to take one, too--he differentiated between Wolf and Hakon very well.
So VENDETTAS, while obviously problematic, is still fun for me.
I'm fond of it. That was the first episode I ever voice directed in its entirety. Of course, I chose it on purpose because it had such a small cast of TOTAL PROS, who knew me and would forgive my ... uh... shortcomings. Ed Asner, Jeff Bennett, Clancy Brown, Jim Cummings, Keith David. Couldn't ask for a more solid, talented and UNDERSTANDING cast for my first effort.
THREE POSTS IN ONE DAY!!!! Im on a role (hopefully a cinnamon 'role' ;) ...haha a play on words!
Why am I posting soooooooo many...well, posts? Well, you said that you would close the question asking thingy for a while (probably a long while) after January and I just want to hurry and talk to you. (I LIKE YOU!!!).......(Not in THAT way....sickos.) When February comes around, you wont have to deal with my farce anymore, at least for a while.......(snickering).......I typed farce...(snickering)
I have some questions about Lexington.
1. Why dose Lexington walk on his heals sometimes? (He has VERY flexible hips to sit the way he sits)
2. Why did you (they) end his wing membranes at his knees instead at his ankles?
3. Who was Lex's favorite Pack member?
I don't know why, but I just thought about Fang and his voice actor......I really like Jim's performance as Fang! Also, I wonder how Fangs old co-workers thought of him?
I wonder why the animators couldn't get his height right, some times he's right other times, he's the size of a 10 year old....oh well, he still looks good.
P.S. my next one will be rambles about episodes so.....it will be BIG....pre-warning you.....but not today!
1. I'm not sure what you mean.
2. It looked right anatomically, I think.
3. Uh... to slaughter?
I don't remember Fang ever looking like a ten-year-old, but I agree that Jim was great in the role.
A few months ago at the library, I checked out the VHS Macbeth (Orson Welles directed and played the lead role). According to the credits, Malcom was played by Roddy Mcdowall (Proteus). Did you know about that?
Yep. I have my copy of that version of Macbeth sitting right over there on the shelf. No, the other shelf. Yeah. See?
I read on the Gargoyles News Central that Keith David is looking for a talking Goliath bank. Do you know how I would contact him if I have one?
I've heard that he has one at this point. Maybe (a year and a half later) he got yours.
When this episode first aired, I had missed both THE CAGE and KINGDOM--leaving me very out of the loop as far as what happened with Derek was concerned, and making this episode the first time I ever saw Beth Maza. As a result, my initial feeling was one of frustration at having lost part of the continuity. Thankfully, however, it was easy enough to figure out that the Maza family had found out about Derek's condition and Xanatos' part in it. I guess that made it *slightly* easier for them to accept living gargoyles.
In addition, since I had missed KINGDOM, this was the first time I had seen Xanatos since the World Tour started.
And Xanatos is just GREAT here. He has his moment of "cliched villainy" with the death trap (and even looks upon it as such), but he also seems much more intense this time around. He has that large "staple gun" thingy that he uses to restrain Angela and Goliath, but he also uses it on two seperate occasions as a weapon--and this thing could really kill someone! Even as a villain, Xanatos is likeable enough that you kind of forget he has the potential to be a killer. Even the death trap doesn't drive that home to me as much as his battle tactics here do.
However, before that, Xanatos' admission that he really has no interest in killing Goliath and Angela is quite refreshing--and further proof that he's not the typical animated nemesis. I even love the almost friendly look on his face as he admits neither gargoyle has done anything he'd hold a grudge against (does Xanatos even HAVE any grudges?).
Naturally, once I found out he was after Coyote the Trickster, I figured he was after immortality. His whole conversation with the Trickster is just perfectly written.
I also loved Xanatos "annoyance" at the end--FINALLY he got handed a real defeat that he could not look on the bright side of. Finally, Goliath (with a little help from his friends) was able to get under his skin, if just a smidge. I wondered, and I'm sure I wasn't alone, if this indicated a "final confrontation" was brewing. Of course, that's not what happened, but this works as a nice little misdirection.
The Robot, Coyote 4.0 was also nice, and a real treat for me to have him and Xanatos interacting. Nice design, although the "face" looked weird. More angular than usual, and sometimes the "skull" side looked like it had an eyebrow. Regardless, I love the two playing off each other, and am goofishly pleased when Xanatos, with his helmet on, is talking with Coyote 4.0, whose "face" is showing. I've always wondered what someone flipping channels would have made of this scene where there appear to be two robots talking--one with a half-human face.
Actually, that particular conversation does not speak very highly for Coyote 4.0's intelligence. He releases the Trickster ("I will check...") and then allows himself to be goaded into bringing a building down on top of him ("I should warn you, I'm programmed for vengence"). Yeah, you can definitely see the Wile E. Coyote resemblence. Now if you could have just had him hold up a little pink umbrella a split-second before the building came down on him.... ;-)
The Trickster himself was unique--the only wholly sympathetic Trickster we have met. Raven and Anansi were the antagonists of their respective episodes, and Puck...while he was enchained by Demona he didn't seem to mind giving our heroes a hard time. Coyote (the Trickster, not the Robot) not only willingly helped our heroes, but actually showed some real affection for one of them--that, of course, being Peter Maza.
Also, this Trickster was a lot more subtle--he rarely used any overt magic (a little hypnosis here, vanishing there, changing his clothes inside the Robot...). He mostly goaded others into acting (influencing luck from the sidelines, of course), and managed to take out the Robot by just dodging behind the support beams.
As for Peter Maza himself, it's nice to see more development in Elisa's dad, and showcasing where he came from. His story kind of parallels with Natsilane's, but Peter is older, more set in his beliefs--it takes more than gargoyles to convince him to believe in Coyote the Trickster. Peter also had a much more bitter break with his traditions, a good deal of which comes through with what was probably his last conversation with his father. When I first saw this ep, I had no idea that Carlos Maza had died. Having Elisa and Beth refer to "Grandpa" made me think he was still around for some reason. Of course, that made the final scene all the more poignant.
It was also nice to see and learn more about Beth. I like how each of the Maza "kids" are distinctive in personality and looks as well.
It's also nice that when Elisa realizes where they are, her first thought has to do with her family ("Beth might be in danger"). And I love the surprise in her voice when she sees her father is there as well. She is really happy to see them.
It took me a couple viewings before I started to pick up on the skiff having arrived in a pool. I rather like that twist.
When Peter and Beth start to explain to Elisa about being arrested and she asks them to start from the beginning. I don't know why but I really find that scene interesting.
Beth and Peter's reactions to the gargs are nice. Peter shows that he's probably not 100% on the whole "gargoyle" thing when he refers to them as "strange company." Beth is obviously a bit more open to them, although even she admits they seem "alien" (and no, I did not take that to mean "extraterrestrial"). Elisa, however, is used to looking at them through her own eyes, and as she says, all she sees is the beauty.
Coyote the Trickster's reverse psycology was a rather nice touch. Even better was Elisa's later comment that it was "pretty blatant."
Xanatos tries to fire from his arm-cannon only to have it kind of blow up in his face since Bronx already chewed it up. Xanatos' line here ("Big mistake, people!") always struck me as odd for some strange reason. I guess I'm not used to hearing Xanatos say something like that.
"No way my luck's this bad." I just love that line.
Beth's little pause before clarifying "uh, The Trickster, not the Robot." A nice beat that also kind of winks at the audience.
"The last thing I remember was ordering a pizza." Another bit I just love for some reason.
Peter's change of heart and appearing in the kachina garment was something I had been expecting. However, Coyote the Trickster's little speech was a surprise. It added an extra level to what Coyote was doing and Peter's part in everything. I love that little "I had to get you back" moment.
I noticed that Beth Maza had a different voice actress here than she did in THE CAGE. I'm not offering this as a complaint or nitpick, I'm just curious if there's any particular reason why.
Xanatos and Coyote alone make this a worthwhile ep, but the other elements really help turn it into one of the best eps on the World Tour.
It's been a long time. The casting change was the choice of our voice and casting director Jamie Thomason. But I can't now recall what the reason was. Perhaps the original actress was unavailable. And in any case Roxanne Beckford, who also played Tea in "Night of the Panther" is always great.
I looked through the archives the best I could, but found nothing of this question. Basically I wanted to know "IF" and "WHEN" the second DVD is greenlit, would it be possible to get Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis for the commentary or even an extras docomentary like the Gathering?
It was not possible on Volume One. They were invited but unavailable. We can cross our fingers if and when Volume Two is prepared.
do u now a actor named sara burnheart?she lived in the lod days
I assume you mean Sarah Bernhardt (1844-1923). We've never met personally, but I've heard good things. Didn't she do a voice on Thundercats?
I mentioned back in MARK OF THE PANTHER that I feard that episode would be focused on the illegal poaching angle, and become less of a story, more of a "public service announcement" of sorts. I said back then that, in my experience, when a show is focused on (or does an episode focused on) certain issues (especially environmental ones for some reason) it seems to sacrifice plot, character, and even believability to force its moral across.
Thankfully, that does not happen in this episode, or in any episode of GARGOYLES that I can think of.
Granted there are *some* lines that come close to being preachy. I find myself laughing at the "Forget me, save the trees!" line. And Zaphiro's "There is no such thing as a few trees," while admittidly cool and well-delivered, initially struck me as so absolutist and dogmatic.
Now, in that last case, I would have felt better if the conversation between Zaphiro and Elisa continued after that (maybe with Zaphiro pointing out that rainforest soil is absolutely worthless for farming). This is another one of those times I really wish GARGOYLES had hour-long episodes.
Actually, I really do like that scene between Elisa and Zaphiro because Elisa plays devil's advocate--she actually tries to see things from the side of the "forest defilers." Going back to what I said about other "environmentally-minded" shows and episodes, things have a tendency to be drawn completely in black and white--anyone who chops down a tree is evil to the core, basically. Broad strokes and caricatures.
Let's look at "Captain Planet and the Planeteers," for example. From what I remember, they had a cadre of "Eco-villains" who largely seemed to be destroying the environment because they enjoyed doing so. And it was specifically the environment that they enjoyed destroying. In some cases, they had a motivation (oftimes greed, though one character needed radiation to survive), but mostly they seemed to do it because they enjoyed polluting. If a normal person was doing "bad things" it was because they were under the influence of one of the big bad-guys, and by the end said normal people saw the error of their ways and turned around. Thus, it doesn't seem terribly realistic to me.
Contrast this with MONONOKE HIME ("Princess Mononoke"), one of my favorite animated movies. The "forest defiler," Lady Eboshi, while she can be quite ruthless and capitalistic, has a heart. She frees women from prostitution and takes care of lepers. She has depth, and this makes her more realistic and identifiable. Thus I was able to take this movie seriously, and more fully appreciate humanity's impact on the natural world.
And thankfully, THE GREEN is much closer to MONONOKE HIME than "Captain Planet." Much of this comes from Elisa. In addition to the scene I already mentioned, I LOVE the scene between her and Goliath at the pyramid when he leaves to protect The Green. She argues from the human point of view, in essence still playing devil's advocate, but she can fully sympathize with the gargoyles. And while Goliath can understand Elisa's point of view, he can see little other choice for the gargoyles trying to save The Green than the guerilla attacks. Even the Mayan clan seems to understand (Turquesa is a bit snappish about the "misguided laws," but Jade seems downright cheerful towards Elisa).
And as for the "villains" themselves, Jackal and Hyena are the only real ones, and their primary interest is the money. They don't show any specific enjoyment out of destroying the rainforest (even Jackal's destruction of trees stems from his trying to keep the gargoyles from doing anymore damage and--heck--he just likes destroying stuff, period). Vogel, and through him Cyberbiotics, are the "big bad" employing Jackal and Hyena, but again it's about the money and not a gleeful hatred for the environment (Environmental Ethics for Businesses: "Care about the environment unless it costs you money."). Even the workers are just doing their jobs (and they're probably as unnerved by Jackal and Hyena as they are the gargoyles). The destruction of the rainforest is, as is often the case in real life, the direct side effect of pursuing other goals (as opposed to the ultimate goal of some malefactor).
Okay, NOW we can get down to smaller details.
I LOVED seeing the new gargoyles. Zaphiro's design was excellent! And Hector Elizondo's voice-work was wonderful. The whole cast did a great job, in fact (and was the Jesse Corti playing Jade the same fellow who played Le Fou in BEAUTY AND THE BEAST?).
The "flesh by day and night" thing was nice--we don't often get to see the gargs in sun-lit environments.
And it was great seeing Jackal and Hyena again, and they actually managaed to be more unnerving than ever. There are the scenes you and Erin mentioned (a headless Hyena is pretty intimidating), but the whole "retract eye/ear" thing creeps me out, too. Those long cords are rewinding into their SKULLS!! And the sound Hyena's earpiece makes when it goes back in her ear...[shudder].
Admittidly, Jackal did have a nice plan, and if it weren't for the amulet being in New York it might have worked. I find it strange that Hyena seems to think being in NY again is a good "omen." Then again, she likes fighting the gargs, so....
I was pleased to no end to see Broadway and Lexington show up again. And their fight with Hyena was well staged (though the destruction of the various exhibits sets my teeth on edge, as well). You brought up Broadway's clan mentality towards maternity (the plural "mothers"), but what I find interesting is Hyena's use of the singular ("mamma"), which almost seems to indicate that she already in her mind sees these guys as brothers.
RE: the head injury. Yeah, that's another one of those things Toon Disney cuts out. Hyena's holding her head in pain was actually a nice touch, though.
I like the look on Jackal's face when Vogel points out the little "contractual oddity." I almost wonder if Vogel enjoyed needling Jackal on some level.
Actually, I must say I was surprised to see Vogel here. I mean, if any corporation was supposed to be "behind it all" shouldn't it be Xanatos Enterprises--the "bad guy's" company? Instead, it's the company headed by a good man, but run (while said good man is ill) by a rather unemotional businessman. It actually helped with the message and increased the depth of both Vogel and Renard. You get the sense that while Vogel may not like Jackal and Hyena (or their actions) he puts it aside in favor of results.
Still, his deciding to pull Cyberbiotics out of the rainforest entirely seemed a bit too pat. Despite that, though, it's pretty well handled.
I would have loved getting a chance to listen to Broadway and Lex's rationale for ultimately not destroying the amulet. I kind of figured they wouldn't, and having seen Obsidiana lose her pendant and Bronx find it I kind of figured out what the ruse would be.
Dang, but Morgan's casual with Hyena the killer cyborg. Unconcious or not, I'd wait until I was packing a nuclear weapon before I got near her.
Jackal doesn't kill Elisa. He tasers her unconcious, but doesn't kill her right off. Why? I just find myself wondering if he didn't have even WORSE things planned for her.
Elisa comes up with a sort of back-up solution that I had been wondering about for quite some time before this episode aired. It always struck me as being advisable to collect "genetic samples" of endangered plant and animal life "just in case." So I rather liked Elisa's contribution here.
A couple final thoughts: I liked that the gargs never referred to the rainforest as such. It was always "the forest" or, even better, "The Green." I love their using a title for this land they hold in reverence.
Also, the "Oxygen" line you mentioned. It is a valid point (one that I keep forgetting, I'll admit), but, yeah, it may have been a bit difficult to pull off without feeling preachy or forced (I could only see Elisa saying this line since the Mayan clan strike me as mostly knowing their own turf--they know the forest is important, but they may not know how globally necessary it is).
It's a good episode, and a well done "special message" ep. And hey, more gargoyles (and cool looking ones at that)!
It's always a fine line, but we do try to avoid being preachy.
And yes, Jesse Corti is Jade and Le Fou.
In materials I've read since, I'm no longer certain that the rain forests are the lungs of the world. That's been called into question... to some extent by the DESTRUCTION of the rain forest. If so much is gone, why haven't oxygen levels dipped -- or something like that.
Is there a reason Laura San Giacomo wasn't credited for her voice work as Fox at the end of "Thrill of the Hunt"? I recently watched that episode on my DVD, and there's no voice credit for Fox.
Greg Weisman says:
I have answered this before, many times, but what the heck...
It was her agent's decision. I doubt it's something he would still insist on today, but he was worried about a stigma.
Sorry. Just found tha tthe question had already been answered in the arcives. My Bad. Don't kknow how I missed it before I sent, but did. Sorry.
Thanks for checking. Later's better than never.
I first heard about "Gargoyles" why back when in 1993, or ther abouts when I saw Marina Sirtus at a Star Trek Convention, and she was talking about. Needless to say, I feel in love with the show after three episodes. However, Ihave always wondered if it was just the luck of the casting that you got so many Next Generation and other Trek cast members to do voices. Did Marina Sirtua and Jonathen Frakes have anything to do with the casting of fellow Trek stars, or was it just one of those weird little things that happend?
Brandon (PS Loved the show and hope to see season 2 on DVD soon)
PSS - Just in case some people are not a double fas as I am, here is a list of the trek stars (that I can remember) the show and the character(s) they played on Gargoyles
Marina Sitrus (Troi - TNG) - "Demona"
Jonathan Frankes (Riker - TNG) - "Xanatos"
Michael Dorn (Worf - TNG & DS9) - "Coldstone/Othello", "Toras"
Brent Spiner (Data - TNG) - "Puck"
LeVar Burton (Gordi - TNG) - Giant Spider whose name escapes me
Avery Brooks (Sisko - DS9) - Alein who lived as Stone Hendge
Colm Meney (O'Brien - TNG & DS9) - Irsih Father, whose name again escapes me)
Kate Mulgrew (Janeway - Voyager) - "Tatana"
Nichelle Nicholes (Uhora - Star Trek) - Elisa's Mother.
Thanks, and sorry for taking up so much space.
Check out the archives. I've answered this MANY times.
R.I.P. Edward Albert.
Edward did a voice for us on a couple of episodes on Max Steel. I won't pretend I knew him well, but he was a good and talented guy on those two occasions. The son of Green Acres Eddie Albert, Edward was a talented actor and activist. He'll be missed.
I just read in today's paper that actor Tony Jay has passed away.
I won't pretend that I knew Tony well. We only worked together once, when he played Anubis for us in the GARGOYLES episode "Grief". But what a great guest spot, huh?
I just loved what he did as Anubis a.k.a. the Jackal-God a.k.a. Death a.k.a. the guy who refused to play favorites. And one of my favorite bits in all of Gargoyles was how we combined Tony's voice -- first with Matt Frewer's and then with Tony Shaloub's -- to create the two Avatars of Anubis. Three totally different personae, one great talented actor. As one might imagine, that could have been a frustrating day, struggling to match up Matt's work with Tony Jay's. (Tony Shaloub recorded at a different time.) But Tony Jay made it easy for us.
He'll be missed.
In "Hunters Moon" who were the voice actors for the hunters Jason, Robyn,and Jon Canmore?
Jason - Deidrich Bader
Robyn - Sheena Easton
Jon - Scott Cleverdon
a)Do you know how all of the star trek- people got involved in the show, there's so many of them.
b) i just started watching Star treck; the next genoration a few months back, and when i first started watchin the show i had an ishue... every time riker talked, i pictured xanatos. dont think i'm weird or anyhting (tho i kinda am, but whatever) but i was wondering if you wathced ST:TNG, has this ever hapened to you??
a) I've answered this MANY times before. Check out the Voice Talent section of the ASK GREG archives.
b) Well, I did watch TNG... and started watching it before we hired Jonathan to play Xanatos. But there was that one episode of DS9 with the Riker clone, where I really felt like Frakes was doing Xanatos doing Riker. (There was also an episode of WINGS like that.)
I was perusing the Hudson archives and read your ramble on "Long Way 'Til Morning," where you invited response to the episode. Of all the episodes of Gargoyles (the REAL episodes, not those GC episodes that made no sense), this is one I remember most vividly as one of my absolute favorites. Rarely do we get to see the elderly character in a series be the hero, or have the spotlight on him for almost every second of the show. It was refreshing to see Hudson as the hero and not some doddering old coot who needs to be saved by his fellows.
The things I remember most about the episode are the good lines the characters had. Some of my favorites from Demona are: "Ciao." (Ms. Sirtis's callous tone there just made it work), and "Your courage is admirable, but ultimately futile." Mr. Asner had the best one's, though: "Just dreaming old dreams, I guess." "I can face her. I just can't beat her." And, of course, his speech to Demona at the end about growing old and waiting.
The flashback scenes are great, too. The planting of the Archmage and that whole plotline was brilliant, as was the Prince's faux pas on "the gargoyles will get you," and the whole snowball effect that had on Katharine.
But, again, above all else, Hudson stands out in this episode. He's not sitting at the clocktower watching TV with Bronx--he's in his element, both in the past and in the present, as a warrior. "He favors speed over stealth, which could mean he has traps waiting for us." Brilliant. His heading underground where neither he or Demona could use their wings--clever.
The whole episode just struck me as excellent because it showed Hudson as a competent, wise, and experienced warrior. I don't know...maybe because my grandfather seems like he knows how to do anything under the sun I took more to Hudson craftiness.
Well...those are just my thoughts. Kudos on one of MANY great episodes.
Thanks. Working with Hudson was always fun, and working with Ed Asner continues to be a joy. (He just did a voice for me on multiple episodes of WITCH.)
Of course, it was the Archmage's appearance in "Long Way To Morning" that inspired the plotlines to follow. At the time, we didn't know we were laying pipe for the future. Frankly, it was the amazing performance of David Warner that made us feel like we HAD to bring the character back.