Skylar writes...

Hi Folks!
Just a little comment for those who might wonder about the date of my last posting: It might seem wrong, but firstly at my watch it´s really already about an hour after mightnight (there might be some hours time difference between the locations) and so my posting made a little time-travel and landed yesterday ;) - but secondly I guess it will already be also for Greg at least the 28. September when he reads or answers it. (And birthday greeting cards also often come a little time too early. It´s normal.)

Greetings ;))

- Skylar

Fire Storm writes...

Hi Greg! I am a long time reader and a first time poster! :)
I know you probally don't remember me, but I was in the late night G98 chat.

Bonnieway...

No real questions this time, so I hope you don't mind if I jump between two topics.

Gargoyles: 2198
You asked for it! 200K+ of responses in less than 24 hours!

A few times you mentioned that the powers to be were afraid (or maybe you were) that Gargoyles would be too much like Batman: TAS
But I have seen an episode that had WAY too many parallels to Gargoyles (It was made well after even 'The GOliath Cronicles' aired)

Basicailly, Jeff Bennet played a crazy character. It has been a while since I saw that episode, but two parts stick out in my mind:
In one part, a angel statue drops on Bennet's character, it's head pop's off and he sticks his head up where the statue's head would have been.

AND in a second part, a castle parade float manages to fly through the air and land on top of a pile of garbage. I even think there was fog below the castle...

Anyway, the episode was VERY funny!

OH, and I think that the Star Trek: Voyager writers threw in something about her Gargoyles character. She said something (to a holodeck character) to the feel of 'Do you think i am the queen of the faries?'

Well, have fun, take care, and see you in LA!

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

sorry about the fact that im about to post several times, but im dividing up my rants, as per your request ^_^

re: gay/lesbian gargs
it depends on what culture. in ancient greece, being gay was perfectly normal. you only got ridiculed for being the "feminie" side of the gay relationship. the "masculine" side was just as accepted as heterosexuality.

The Mighty Thor writes...

Hey just a question that i was thinking about
Why?
With all the talk of starwars (don't worry this question ain't about SW) it made me think, well we all love the original SW-tri. just like we love the 66eps of Gargoyles for us fans it's like a part of culture, well for me it is, and I have read the SW books 80+ and, well SW isn't the same I don't like the idea that Luke, Han, and Leia will grow old and die, latter in the books Chewie dies!!! For some reason I don't want the same thing to happen to Goliath and the trio and Elisa, don't get me wrong but in order to do all this continuing of the story our original cast is gonna grow old and die, personaly I'm glad that the show was stoped, not cuz it was bad, but because it was one of my favorite shows and had great characters and everything, and I don't want to SEE it die.
This probably sounds like sacrliage but I just thought I'd speak my mind. Thanks for your time.

Todd Jensen writes...

One thing that puzzled me in the "Guidelines for Villains" document that you posted just now. When it gave a list of the kind of "silly Batman villains" to avoid, it included Mr. Freeze on the list, alongside the Penguin and the Riddler. Now, the latter two, I can see as "silly", from what I know of them - but Mr. Freeze as portrayed in "Batman:TAS" (which is, admittedly, the only interpretation of the character that I'm familiar with) didn't strike me as silly at all. He seemed more like an effectively tragic figure, a man trapped forever in eternal cold, shut out from warmth and aware of his plight, and wanting vengeance upon the hypocritical businessman who had put him in this condition - with the additional element of his grief over his forever being parted from his wife Nora. I'm at a loss as to how such a figure can be considered "silly" - and can only assume that you must have had a different interpretation of Mr. Freeze in some other "Batman" medium. (Since, as I said, I don't know how he was portrayed outside of "Batman:TAS", it's quite possible).

Razor Dog writes...

Hello, Greg.

Here's my question. Are there any Gargoyles CDs or soundtracks available? It seems that soundtracks for videogames and animated series are just too impossible to find in the U.S. Over in Japan, it's as easy as pie to find CDs for such genres.

Anyway, I love your work and it's a shame the series got cancelled. I was so jaded to find that The Goliath Chronicles croaked and I almost cried, I really did. Gargoyles was the one of the VERY last cartoon series I actually LOVED before I got sucked into the world of anime (mostly Dragon Ball Z). Thanx for all the memories your series gave me to cherish and good luck on the next series- I'm looking forward to it :)

Todd Jensen writes...

Another note on the "Brainstorming Villains" document: I do find it rather intriguing that a rejected name for Goliath would be "Griffin", in view of the later addition of Griff into the series. So people on the project already knew of the connection between gargoyles and griffons, then?

Todd Jensen writes...

I read your document on the three "proposed and rejected" villains for "Gargoyles" - Mortify, Lichen, and Val Starch - and have to agree that they were "underwhelming", as you put it (although given that, as you also point out, they were the result of not too many people at Disney having experience with the animated action-drama genre at this time, I don't think that one should be too hard on the chap who designed them). The thing that really stands out about this trio to me, actually, is that I'd be hard-pressed to work out how they could serve as suitable thematic adversaries to a medieval gargoyle awakened in New York; they could fit nicely against a purely modern-day super-hero of the conventional sort, but don't strike me as being as appropriate to pit against Goliath as the antagonists who did make it into the series were. (Well, maybe Lichen as a fellow "monster", and Mortify's journalistic background could cause some problems, the way that in the actual series, "Jon Carter"'s report for WVRN did in "Hunter's Moon Part Three", but on the whole, it's more of a stretch than the "finished product" antagonists).

puck<40> writes...

Greg responds...

I once read a Star Wars novel right after the original movie came out. It stank. Kinda turned me off that whole thing.

But you never know.

;-; you read Splinter of the Minds eye? huff. See when I read this trilogy of books it turned me *onto* the other books. Timothy Zahn is really a great writer. And turned me on so much so that I read through so many of the bad ones... including "splinter" <which was released shortly after the movie, pure crap>. Occasionally I try to make my way through another one here and there..... But everything pales. PALES!!!!!! ~taunts all the star wars fans who disagree~ sheep!!!! can't any of these so called hardcore fans see that a BIG MACHINE OF DEATH is kinda boring? book after book.... ;-; so depressing. But This trilogy.... MWAHAHAHH. 9.9; sorry

erhm, heheh. ^.^ anyways.... ~wavies the books in front of Greg~ If I managed to send these.... or not even these. Just the first one to Jen, would you consider reading it? "Heir to the Empire". Made the best seeeelllleeeerrrssss list. =) Hit number oooooonnnneeee. read the reviews online of it if my sales pitch didn't sell it.

and forget about the rest of the books. <a couple short stories are superb here and there but mostly they're blah>

running off now, spanish homework to do.

Kelly Leigh Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

Sam asked "I was just curious, biologically, how old was everyone in the mini clan back in 1996? Thanks alot!"

yes, the MiniClan is an internet-based fan-clan. The majority of the clan is around the same age. in 1996 most of us were 15/16, with a few ranging off in each direction. that means most of us are around 19/20/21 now. but truely, the ages range from probably 5-50 or so ^_^

Kayless writes...

Some of your posts indicate that you're a Highlander fan, or at least are familiar with the original movie and some of the T.V. series. I was wondering if you'd seen Highlander: Endgame yet. While not as good as the original, it was easily the best of the sequels, taking the best from the show and first movie and combining them into a poignant package. I went into this movie with a sense of despair (understandable, due to the last two big screen fiascos) and came out pleasantly surprised. The battle choreographing was topnotch too, on par with The Matrix and The Phantom Menace. Overall I consider seeing Highlander: Endgame a good use of an afternoon.

puck40 writes...

among my gargoyle interests I fell in love with Star Wars for a while. And erhm... just gonna post my comment on that whole Phantom Menace bit. lalala.

There was this book trilogy that came out "Heir to the Empire", "Dark Force Rising", and "The Last Command". It took place 5 years after Return of the Jedi. Whole bunch of books released. And among any of these... technically non-canon books, these kicked ass! (a lot of them sucked) So if you just wanna make-believe that Mr. Lucas formally accepts them <he's all like "you can write them but they're not technically continuity" and why? for the money of course, so if he makes money, i say its all good>, it means there is something better than Return of the Jedi. So Phantom Menace is seeable!

sort of.... the movie sucked. I mean the action sequences were crisp, but the acting... god help us. Character development... sigh... So umm... if the next movie gets good reviews, maybe you'd consider reading those three kickass books which would be a little like a.... "what happened after Jedi bit", and see the movie?

Timothy Zahn is the author, and how he writes those books are truly brilliant. I found them more enticing than the original trilogy actually. And do you know why they were so good? full blown character development... and the villian! oh my god so ingeniously cool. I'd give a little more description cept this post is getting long already and don't even know if your interested.

and if you do read the books... be careful. Because out of that whole series as a whole, some really suck.

later Greg!

Brian writes...

I was reading some questions and people mentioned that the toon disney episodes were edited. I knew they got rid of deadly force but a never heard about this! Do you where there is a list of the edits so I can see what I'm missing?
Also, I can't belive they only show one episode a day now. At least they do it twice.

Todd Jensen writes...

I recently realized that there is a certain similarity between the Sidero/Xavier team-up in the original comedy version of "Gargoyles" and the Hakon/Wolf team-up in "Vendettas". In both cases, a couple of villains team up against the gargoyles, one an original enemy of theirs from the Middle Ages, surviving on only as a ghost, the other a modern-day descendant of that medieval enemy who is scorned by his medieval ancestor for being too "poor-quality". Was the Sidero/Xavier team-up the distant inspiration for the Hakon/Wolf team-up?

Aris Katsaris writes...

Lexy> <<You mentioned that Sora was going to be one of the females included in the Manhattan Rookery>>

Actually Greg didn't...

Ambrosia writes...

*glances through questions being submitted*
Whoa.
I had no idea I was going to stir up so much controversy just mentioning the Phantom Menace. I too thought Mary Mack's sending *you*, someone who had just blatantly said that he had not seen this movie, a post full of spoilers was very distasteful.
I can't argue whether it was a good movie or not because that's a matter of opinion. Like I said before, I like *everything* so my opinions are always somewhat fluffy. I have yet to find a story that's a total waste. I have too much respect for people like you who put these things together (Cartoons, movies, stuff).
Where was I going with this? *checks map* Oh, yeah. Well, should you *ever* choose to see Phantom Menace, attempt to put aside the biases we've all thrown at you and enjoy or don't enjoy. Whichever.

Kelly Leigh Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

i just read your latest answeres and felt like pointing something out:

since i was about five years old ive been creating alternate characters for myself. i had read the name Siobhan in a book and liked it so much that one of my characters used that name. i just thought it was cool that youve thought of using that name too. *shrug* not a big thing, but i wanted to ramble ^_^

Siren writes...

I was wondering, since is is now available to rent on VHS/DVD, have you seen Princess Mononoke? It was a wonderful movie! Keith David did the voice of the leader of the Boar Clan...damned if I can remember the name. Did an excellent job too...But I can't help imagining that was Goliath, even sounded like some things Goliath might say at one point or another. He is also the narrator as well, at the beginning. If ya haven't seen it and do see it later, could you please post what ya think about it? I like your opinons on the other movies you saw (ex: Titan A.E., Jurassic Park, etc) Thanks so much!

Nemi writes...

*TWACK!s herself on the head.*

I just remebered and I keep on forgeting.

I meant ot tell you a while ago but as I said I forgot.

Anyways, short but true story:

School made us enter a poetry contest.
I was among the Winners.
Result It gets Published and I lose all rights to the poem (I didn't even get a discount on the book!)

Relavance: Said Poem was inspired by Gargoyles, Macbeth's plight of living forever in patcular. (I had just seen the ep where he was dressed as the hunter and trying to end it all)

Anthology of Poety by Young Americans, 2000 eedition, page tem, the long one, by Rachel Lindenberg.

-Nemi, who is weird and forgetful

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

I am terribly sorry about this, but for once I haven't read everything posted to the "waiting to be asked" page before posting this. Although I did do a quick scan. I am tying up my brother's line when he has the good grace to give me indefinite lone of his couch to save me from a monster commute. Of course if no one has asked yet, I am terribly sorry to have admitted that I haven't followed the rules:}

You just [9/5/00] posted: Intern Ideas

"Continuing our reprinting of old documents from the Gargoyles Development File.

This one was written by Regina Dixon, who was a college intern working at Disney TV Animation for the summer. Refer to previously posted documents to see what she was basing these ideas comedy springboards on.

I hate to say it, but in hindsight this seems like busy work to me. We hadn't even sold the show. We were a long way from needing story ideas. Still, I suppose it was good practice."

Is this complete? I have been keeping rather current and I don't remember specific episode ideas in the posting of old stuff.

As long as I am touching on my fear of missing anything.. you mentioned a chat on the 1rst of September (I think). Do you know if there is a transcript that can be posted? Or, Hi Gore! does Gore?

Goliath_994 (aka Michael Norton writes...

Greg, I was in the adult chat the night VP got you and most everybody else upset. I agree with your ramble on the subject 100%. I did not care much for VP's attitude, but what he said made a lot of sense. I didn't jump in and defend the guy because I really didn't want to alienate myself from the rest of fandom or offend you. But the more I thought about it the more I regretted not speaking up and am very happy with what you have said about the subject. At the time of the chat I was thinking things like "What if Frank Paur had other, conflicting ideas, why wouldn't they be considered canon?". Or "What if Disney had other ideas? They do own the show". I don't mean any offense by those statements, but they did go through my mind. That said, I really appreciate the time you spend answering my questions and certainly consider you the top authority on anything Gargoyles related. I hope and pray that Gargs gets back on the air and that you are the creative force behind it.

Aris Katsaris writes...

Tana> Well JRR Tolkien didn't exactly say that what he was writing was fact. More that (like Greg) he seemed to not be inventing, but rather delving into a subcreation - a universe that had some reality of its own, so that instead of inventing he just had to wait until he could see what had 'really' happened...

Todd Jensen writes...

A little comment-ramble-reply to your latest ramble (on whether your ideas for the Master Plan count as fanfic or not).

I certainly agree with you that it isn't really official or canon until it reaches the television screen (or whatever Disney's official medium for "Gargoyles" becomes next, when and if it returns). In fact, we've seen evidence enough already that things may get changed in the process of actually creating the stories (witness the exec who suggested that Goliath ask the Magus to place the "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" spell upon him, rather than having the Magus make the offer first). But all the same, I do find myself leaning more towards your version of things - not just because you said them, but often because they simply make the most amount of sense to me.

One example that I will give here is the "Jon Canmore = Castaway" idea, which you had in mind in writing "The Journey", but which "The Goliath Chronicles" didn't pick up on, making Castaway just some villainous businessman after the gargoyles for no apparent reason other than "motiveless malignity". I believe in Castaway and Jon Canmore being the same, not just because you said so, but because it makes more sense to me that way. For one thing, it gives a good explanation for why Castaway acts the way that he does in "The Journey", his reason for hating the gargoyles so much and wanting to ruthlessly kill Goliath; take away the "He's really Jon Canmore" bit, as your successors at The Goliath Chronicles did, and he becomes more of an unsolvable mystery. Also, I noticed a few clues to that in "The Journey" - his name, for example (the moment that I heard the name "Castaway" the first time that I watched "The Journey", I automatically thought of the Canmores, since they'd used surnames beginning with hard C's throughout "Hunter's Moon" for their aliases), and also the fact that, if you look closely enough at his Quarryman badge, you can see the three red scratches of the Hunter protruding from beneath it. But at any rate, I do feel that, even without your own words, the notion that Castaway is really Jon makes the most convincing explanation for him.

zippysquir@aol.com writes...

Justa word of caution concerning Mary Mack's summary of The Phantom Menace: some people don't know how to enjoy a movie.
Basically, she wanted the movie equivalent of this: "Take everything you had planned for all 65/66 episodes of Gargoyles and make just ONE episode."

These idiots exist everywhere; beware of them. Bad advice can be the killer.

Watch the movie, forget any opinions but your own, and realize the following Darth Maul created with just ten minutes of screen time.

P.S. Luke Skywalker got a medal for blowing up the Death Star and killing somewhere in the neighboorhood of a million people who were just doing their job.

Aris Katsaris writes...

Btw, LSZ's "Zeroth" was a reference to some of Isaac Asimov's novels - mainly "Robots and Empire" if I remember correctly where the Zeroth Law comes to be added to the first Three Laws of Robotics. I assume you haven't read it? :-)

Blaise writes...

Gotta say, I LOVE reading these early documents of GARGOYLES.

I was rather surprised that Amp had originally been two separate characters (Nick and Trouble), and that there was a second precursor to Lexington (Campbell, I think it was).
I was also surprised to find that Dakota's own precursor, Georgette was not originally the leader, but instead the "should-be-leader" character. You had mentioned that the reason you changed Dakota to Demona was that she was too bland and uninteresting to be the leader of a comic team. Why was she made the full leader when the cast was slimmed? Do you think her more "serious" character would have worked in the original role of Georgette?

Human-wise: I never even suspected the inclusion of Sidero, though it sounds like it could have made for some fun conversations. Xavier sounds every bit as Igthorn-ish as I imagined him to be (I don't know why, but just from your original description of him, I thought of Igthorn). And already, Morgan has gone through THREE changes of profession--before she was named she was a lab person working for Xavier, then she became a curator, and finally an archeologist. Actually, after that, she became BOTH of the latter. This woman just wanted to be everything, didn't she?

Owen...I can't help but smile at the image of an aardvark plunking away at a computer or hitting on a woman.

I have always been interested in how you guys originally developed the series. I remember asking the question of the comedic counter-parts of the characters way back when ASK GREG first went on-line. Now I'm learning more of it than I ever dreamed existed.

Thanks. I mean it.

Todd Jensen writes...

Oh, and thank you for the "Owen as an aardvark" memo (this is one part of the original comedy development that I especially rememebered - I once mentioned it in a Gargoyles newsgroup, in fact - and promptly sent one of the other members into shock over it). It was interesting getting to see the "original draft" character descriptions for Elisa, Owen, and Xanatos (as Morgan, Owen, and Xavier).

And yep, I've got to agree with you that Xavier would have been annoying in a serious drama as a major villain, but works nicely as the main villain of a comedy series (just like Duke Igthorne, whom I recall quite well).

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

ramble:

morgan and dakota as good buddies? o.O ahh?

seriously- thanx for all the pre-gargs info. i love to see what the show evolved from, and laugh at all the close calls ^_^ i still cant get over the pic of RALPH from g2k. oh my GHOD. the show wouldnt have gotten the respect that it did, and the following, if it had stayed in the gummy bears phase. im sure of it. (no offense, but gummybears didnt have that following, and i dont think gargs would have either)

*gets off her soap box* ^_-

Aris Katsaris writes...

To Duncan Devlin who said: "I don't quite understand the response. From my experience, not ALL things are true."

Let me just paraphrase a sentence of Terry Pratchett: "All things are true, for a given value of 'true' "

Dracolich writes...

By the time you read this, you will probably have the answer, but just in case:

A poster has been asking you questions about the "connection" of the fey. I beleive what he or she is referring to is what powers or forces they are associated with. Example: Aphrodite, love. Seth(or Set), storms and evil. I hope this helps. See 'ya again! P.S. I'm shortening my name.

Entity writes...

Hi,

I'd just like to back Mary Mack's summary/review of The Phantom Menace. It was everything she described it as.

I'd also like to voice my pleasure at the sight of Wrath of Khan in your list of favorite movies. It's in mine, too, but most of the time that film seems to get jipped. Either the person's someone who has an inexplicable (and I venture to say shallow) distaste for Star Trek, or they'd rather claim First Contact as the hands-down best film, ignoring the originals.

Incidentally, I thought First Contact was a travesty. Maybe think "First Knight" for Arthurian Legend, to get an idea.

Kelly L Creighton / Kya White Sapphire writes...

*reads your post about needing a tape recording of her voice* well, i work at an 800 number. ill send it to gorebash, and you can feel free to call me any time. ^_^ im the receptionist, so unless im at lunch (generally between 11:45 and 12:45 eastern) ill be the one to answer the phone!

Matthew Smith writes...

hey Greg, what's up? Well, this isn't really a Gargoyle related question, it's more about one of the movies you mention being one of your favorites: Ghostbusters. That is one of my all time favorite movies. I see you didn't seem to like the sequel. I rather enjoyed GB2, heck I bought both movies last weekend, but I guess i can see why you didn't like it. I mean walking Statue of Liberty, "Mood Slime" that responded to good/bad vibes...ect...
My passion for Ghostbusters goes back to my when I was 5. Oh I remember religiously watching "The Real Ghostbusters" every day before kindergarten. Me and my brother used to dress up in old pyjammas, which our mother altered to have the Ghostbuster logo on the shoulders, and would run around the neighbourhood pretending to "bust" ghosts.
Anyway, back to the movie. My mother must have hated that movie with a passion, simply because it was the only thing we'd rent whenever we'd go to our grand-parents house (who had a VCR when we didn't) must have seen the movie like 60 times back then, and that was before I could appreaciate the witty humor, let alone understand the plot.
Last year, I watched the movie for the first time in about 10 years. I never realized excactly how clever of a movie it was. It was hillarious, yet not off the wall not to be taken seriously. Even the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man provided a serious enough threat.
Come to think of it, this actually is a Gargoyles question. Gozer's Terror Dogs, the one's who possessed Dana and Louis reminded me an awful lot of Bronx. Did this in anyway inspire you to create the Gargoyle Beasts? Also, the Terror Dogs came to life by breaking out out of it's stone shell, much like the way Gargoyles do. Is this simply a coincidence? I remember you stating that your inspirations for Gargoyles were Gummi Bears, actual stone gargoyles, Hill Street Blues. But is it possible that Ghostbusters is among one of the inspirations for Gargoyles? Or am I just making wild speculations in hoping that one of my favorite movies helped inspire one of my favorite animated shows?

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of response to your comments on doing or not doing a Gargoyles/super-hero crossover of any sort. You mentioned that you didn't see it happening, short of a crossing between parallel universes, because the Gargoyles Universe and the super-hero universes of DC and Marvel Comics are very different in style. From what I know of mainstream super-heroes (which, I will confess, isn't all that much), I can certainly agree with you.

Take Batman, for example. The Batman Universe is clearly different enough from the Gargoyles Universe. In the Batman Universe, the "super-villains" are more out in the open, with the public all too aware of them. In the Gargoyles Universe, the "super-villains" are more low-profile; the general public don't know that Demona, Thailog, Oberon's Children, and the Illuminati actually exist. They know about Xanatos and Macbeth, but only in terms of their public personas; they know about the Pack, but only as "TV actors who went bad" - I haven't seen any indications that the general public know as yet about Jackal and Hyena being cyborgs now or Wolf being a mutant wolf-man. They don't even know for certain about the gargoyles until the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" - and even then all that they know is that the gargoyles exist, and nothing more than that.

In conventional super-hero universes, the weird and paranormal is very public and high-profile, known to the public. In the Gargoyles Universe, the weirdness exists just as surely, but is far more "covered up". For this reason, I can't seriously imagine Batman or Superman or Spiderman or the X-Men existing in the same universe as the gargoyles.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a comment inspired by your recent answers to the "Tempest" question. While you never did manage to get "The Tempest" into Gargoyles outright (and I found that a pity, for my own part), I've sometimes thought that Angela does resemble Miranda a little (in the same way that, to me, Thailog resembles Edmund in "King Lear" and Demona Shylock) - there's the same general concept there of a sweet, innocent girl being brought up on a mysterious magical island and filled with wonder at the outside world (Miranda's "brave new world" lines strike me as being just as suitable for Angela as they were for the original speaker). I just thought that you might be interested.

Mary Mack writes...

So, you didn't see The Phantom Menace.

SPOILERS

Lucky guy. That movie got me all bent out of shape for lots of reasons, and I think some of them stem from being a Gargoyles addict. I respect nonhumans. In Phantom Menace, the nonhumans were either villains (the inept flunkie-type, at that) or stupid as dirt and present only for comic relief. Anybody who could possibly save the day had to be human and under twenty-one, and somebody thought that having a nine-year-old boy destroy a battleship full of sentient beings was a GOOD idea. (Okay, so the kid grew up to be Darth Vader, but really, they practically threw him a party for mass murder!) Qui-Gon Jinn, our first real look at a Jedi Knight in his prime, cheated at dice. How very, very honorable of him. Darth Maul, who had the potential to be scary and evil and really, really neat, talked a little, did some impressive acrobatics (played by Toad from X-Men, now there's a good movie), and died. Seven minutes of screen time, tops. Folks mention racial stereotypes in the film; they're right. I wondered why those trade federation guys didn't just say "Ah, so!" and get it over with. Or why Jar-Jar didn't offer Obi-Wan a hit of whatever he was smoking. The direction was minimal, the dialog weak, and most of the actors seem too scared of Mr. Lucas to improvise. The special effects were eye-popping, but hardly ever seemed to have anything to do with the plot. One character is introduced solely as comic relief (Jar-Jar), and he has no witty repartee, just slapstick that occurs beacuse he's the stupid nonhuman.

Basically, you missed a gaping wad of nothing by missing Phantom Menace, and you're luckier than I am. That movie managed to sour me on Star Wars as a whole-- pre-Phantom, I'd read every book, bought action figures, comics, expensive expandable lightsabres... post-Phantom, zip. Gargoyles, Star Wars fiction, Star Trek, Sci-Fi and Fantasy books all gave me an appreciation for good stories where the villains were interesting, the plots thick, and the heroes not neccesarily caucasian humans. The Phantom Menace was bad. It was, to Star Wars, what the Goliath Chronicles was to Gargoyles. Only shorter.

Man Mountain writes...

Greg, You seemed confused on LSZ's use of "Zeroth." I first read it as ZEH-roth but then realized he meant
ZEE-rothe as in 0th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Is that what confused you as well or am I just... um, dumb?

LSZ writes...

As to the Zeroth thing; I'm not sure if you used it or not, but it seemed a logical thing to call the pre-First Race; thought of this while reading Asimov on his Three and then Four Laws of Robotics..

Todd Jensen writes...

I just read the latest "early development" memo. I found it another fun "behind the scenes" peek at the early history of "Gargoyles".

The two bits that particularly stood out to me were:

1. The gargoyles fondness for partying (which was also mentioned in the earlier memos). That obviously pre-dated Goliath's introduction into the project, given that I have a very hard time imagine Goliath partying. The trio (whose proto-versions WERE in the original comedy development, I recall), yes, but Goliath - I don't even want to make the attempt.

2. Xanatos's original as the several-times-great-nephew to the evil wizard (the original of the Archmage, the Magus, or both?). The thing that stood out to me here was that the nephew character struck me from the description as sounding like a conventional cartoon villain rather than the very memorable and convention-flouting David Xanatos. It makes it amazing when you think over what this character would eventually become.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the memos, to see what other treasures they might contain.

Ambrosia writes...

Okay, this is a response to that S.T. Coleridge reference and suspending disbelief.
I've been blessed with a really great English teacher who I loved so much in Freshman Comp 101, that I took him again for Literature and again in Survey of Shakespeare. Last spring semester, he lectured a bit about how to read fiction effectively. In my notes I have written down:
"be imaginatively involved in the work" That's Mr. Farrell and not Coleridge. He then quoted Coleridge saying reading fiction should be "a willing suspension of disbelief." In other words, while reading about a giant dragon, you're not supposed to think to yourself, "there's no such thing as a giant dragon." In a work of fiction, you put yourself into that world... like a certain universe we all know and love.
Just thought I'd clarify.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with suspending belief either...

Calvina Richardson writes...

I just want to say that Gargyles is one of my alltime favorite cartoons and I am 25. I just want to know is there
a time or place that I can view Gargoyles outside of toon disney since it is not available in my area.

Scott Iskow writes...

You asked me (warily) why I didn't like "Leader of the Pack" as much as other episodes. Oh, gee, where do I start? ;)

First off, let me say that I didn't hate it. In fact, I think I liked it originally. This episode, unfortunately, had a nasty habit of being constantly rerun to the point of nausea. I'd get sick of the *best* of episodes if it kept being shown over and over. It eventually came to a point where I'd turn off the TV as soon as I'd hear the music that began the ep, (on a good day, I'd get through the entire first act before shutting it off).

Another thing that didn't quite work for me was the animation. Some parts looked good. Other parts looked like a sloppy version of Darkwing Duck or Tiny Toons. Just how big were Lexington's eyes, anyhow?

I also didn't buy that Lexington could be so vengeful. Didn't seem in character.

It was a nice touch to have Brooklyn giving him the "don't be vengeful" lecture, but later episodes depict Brooklyn jumping the gun just like Lex does here. Similarly, (a la "Hunter's Moon 1"), Brooklyn endangers the clan by giving up the element of surprise. Awful reckless for someone who both recognizes the pitfalls of vengeance and is the second-in-command.

Also, it may just be that I didn't like this episode as much as others because it was a Pack episode. The Pack is the closest thing the gargs have to cliched villains. I liked "Thrill," "Brother's Keeper," and "Upgrade," but disliked others like "Leader," and "The Green." Maybe I just find the Pack inaccessible as characters.

Criticism aside, I'm still a big fan of the show as a whole. There are an extremely small number of episodes that I thought were mediocre, (looking forward to your ramble on "Monsters", BTW). An excellent show like "Gargoyles" can get away with a few lesser-quality eps.

"Gargoyles" wasn't perfect. It was only damned good.

Now, before I offend thee further, I shall depart most hastily.

<leaves smoke trail in his wake>

puck40 writes...

Puck40's top five favorite episode list. Yeah yeah, I'm sure no one out there cares. But I'm telling for those people who are bored and just want something to read.... yeah thats it. So I'll put a quote in for each one that I think makes the episode *the* episode. (mind you, this isn't necessarilly the order I like the episodes in)

Enter Macbeth.
Why? look at my post praising if if you want. But this quote should justify all that is good.
~~"Its not you I'm after, your just a pawn, I want your QUEEN" - "Queen? We have no Queen" - "No?! then what about... Demona" - "You know Demona?" - "KNOW HER?! (doesn't Macbeth laugh so cool right here?) I *named* her... if I captured you, the last of your kind, she will come to free you, its *her* I want." - (twisted Goliath Thailog like laughter, guess he does know how to laugh maniacally) "Then you are a FOOL! She is our enemy... she wouldn't lift a talon to save us."

The Edge.
This almost doesn't make it due to the fact I hate broadway and he got lots of action shots. But ah... Xanatos.
~~"I was a little worried that I might be getting soft. But I was able to stand up against Goliath, the greatest warrior alive. I'd say I've still got the edge."~~
If that line right there doesn't clench people into the episode... you all suck. His triumphs over losses. How his goal is always usually a small one that no one knows about, versus the fight that he fights. With freeing the pack and Coyote its all about Fox. Everything else is just subterfuge, yeah he kicks ass. And this episode was him, just wanting a self esteem boost. Something so trivial yet massively important! Spoon.

The Mirror.
Hey.... its Puck. its a really *fun* episode, and massively well written and acted besides the "cheesy" one liners. they were here... like the one that went something like "my strength has never depended on brute force, but on true friends" blah... or... "with Demona involved its more than (insert word lex or brook said here) its dangerous." But it was also the true *start* of the relationship with Elisa/Goliath. Very cool. which quote to choose from though... not any of the three bad ones... oh heck
~~"It was a ROMP indeed!" - "Spare me your gloating just go...." - "With out giving you something in return for all this merriment? Puck is many things, but never a poor guest!" - "Please.... Leave." - (an annoyed Puck right here) "You wanted to be your gargoyle self by night, and *not* stone by day? So be it."~~ (am sure everyone knows the spell by heart if your actually reading stuff in the Ask Greg.)

Vows.
The episode on my top five didn't use to be Vows, it was Avalon Part 2. Until I realized, when you go Time Travel wise... sure David Warners cool. But this episode so takes the cake. Again Xanatos is the "anti-hero", wouldn't say villian for this one. Whats his goal? To make sure he's rich, sure... but above all. He wants to impress his dad. Its such a childish thing, wanting to impress your dad, it always sticks with you. You don't want to be the dissapointment. So this was his alterior motive. And Petros... Clencher for this episode has to be this quote which by far gave me goosebumps first time I heard it.
~~"Whats this?" "A simple American penny, its not worth much now but in a thousand years.... Who knows? Its my wedding present to you, because its *all* you seem to care about."~~
yeah

And last but not least..

Future Tense.
Come on, you all knew it'd be here. I first saw it and was like... god... this is is so wrong but good!! and the end with Puck it was like. heheh, kickass! This episode was good for so many multiple reasons. The future depiction... the epic storyness. Xanatos killing Alexander, Hudson the first Hero of the war. That was SOOO cool. Lex the villian, Brooklyn punching out Goliath. Goliath showing he semi still had feelings for her by the end, hey... this was more the "old" her afterall, ne ne Greg? But as I said just above... I hated broadway. But I swear... this episode almost made me cry. The quote.
~~"Hold on Broadway... if you can last until sunrise you'll be healed." - "ohhh.... yes..... the sun. Can you see it Goliath... its.. beautiful...." - ".... goodbye.. my friend.."~~
(sniffle) that ones in the Avalon Archives.

Okay okay. the main reason I put this post up was to see if anyone else would put up there favorite top 5 or so episodes and "why" they were there favorite.

I'm gonna end this with one more quote since I've been doing them throughout... This one shows... that this show in general was more than a normal cartoon. It had depth.. continuity.. emotion... I give you the quote I think sums up that this series was truely unique.

Katherine: "Oh Magus... what have yae done?"
Magus: "Princess.. I-"
Katherine: "shhh... lay still now.. we'll get yae back tae th' palace an the-"
Magus: "n-no.... no katherine. i think i shall like to stay here.."
Goliath: "I owe you a great debt Magus"
Magus: "yooou... but, i cursed your clan"
Goliath: "You saved my children"
Magus: "hnn... oh I'm so tired... i think I would.... like to resst."
Katherine: "Yae *caenot" leave mae now."
Magus: "neveerr.. my princess.."
Katherine: "nooo Magus"
~and cue the music played over Katherine crying~
~on a note, most of these quotes are downloadable at http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org~

puck40 writes...

Puck40 writes (in reference to Enter Macbeth):
Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.

Greg responds...

Only the top three? :)

to which I respond. I meant episode!!!!

the show is by far my favorite American Cartoon(few have ever had continuity or intelligence, batman intelligence, x-men continuity, how many "combined" the two?). The storyline was beyond Excellent. The character development amazing. I mean, would've craved to see others more developed. Even Puck, who appeared in a mere 4 episodes, had a "fair" amount of screen time, evolved so far beyond a 2d character. He was shown how he was usually depicted..... mischievous, happy, fun. But he also had to him moments of annoyance at being forced to due stuff, a gift rejected, oh he'll get back at that. And less us not forget "Not Eternally!!!!" the panic in him there. I mean sweet! It measures up to Anime very easilly with animation at "moments" that could pass it in a heartbeat.

but meant episode. ^.^ hmmmm just for the hell of it I'll do another post in a sec

Kelly L Creighton/Kya White Sapphire writes...

just read yer x-men ramble. so i thought id ramble a little ^_^ (twice in one day!! AAK!)

re: jurassic park and the lost world
okay anyone who knows me knows i LOVE dinosaurs. i love these movies because they have dinosaurs. but anyone who WATCHES these movies with me will immediately know that ive seen them at least 30 times (no exxageration) and i continually spout off the mistakes. editing errors, creative liberties and just plain MISTAKES. theres a HUGE list of them. the spelled the embryo label "stegAsaurus" instead of "stegOsaurus." they have the car fall into a revine as the t-rex pushed it over where it had torn down the fence, but WAIT? how did it tear down the fence if there is a revine? for that matter, where did the ground go that the goat was standing on? one could say that in the shot of the car going over, there is a patch of high ground on the left, but the t-rex actually pushed the car over where it had stepped out originally, hence the torn fense (am i clear on this? i dont think i sound like im making sense...) there are TONS of mistakes. but i like dinosaurs. so lets say i like the dinosaurs in the movie, more than i like the movie. i wanted to ask tho, have you read the books? dont read the lost world. it was written for the movie, and was badly done. but the original JP- was FANTASTIC. at least in my opinion. i read it 8 times. even better was Robert Bakker's Raptor Red. HIGHLY reccomend that one.

re: x-men
rogue's hair goes blonde in the end because her character in the comic book had a patch of blonde (or white, depending on what comic u read) hair on top of her head. i duno if that was originally a tribute to any other character or not. (i hadnt read the original comic. the only exposure to x-men i had was the animated serise, which i only watched a few of.)

re: comics in general
i used to read a lot of wonder woman (not the original stuff, but from about 1990-1991) and WildC.A.T.S. i LOVED the cats. Zealot was my HERO. but then the comic went all soap-opera and i was like "this sux." they broke up the original cast. its like "we have something thats doing well. lets CHANGE EVERY ASPECT OF IT, SHALL WE?" (soung familiar?) i did buy a few of Zealot's comics (#1-3 i think) and Grifter's (#8-10). grifters kinda sucked, but i liked Zealot's.

are there movies that you DO like? im guessing not many. perhaps youre spoiled on shakespear (oh thats a shame ;P) of course it may be that youve created something so great, with such attention to detail, that anything without that minute attention just doesnt do anything for you. care to comment on why youre repulsed by so many movies?

ok enough ranting for one post...

Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...

Greg, thanks for the ramble about taking your kids to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream". Nice to see you passing Shakespeare on to the next generation. Though Erin and Ben are not the only ones you're teaching/taught it to.

I have yet to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (though I saw the movie) performed, but I saw "Titus" last summer, and as you know "A Winter's Tale" with Keith David recently. I loved both of them and look forward to seeing more. Though originally (before "Gargoyles"), I thought of Shakespeare the way your average teenager thinks of it... as boring old books.

Through "Gargoyles" I learned to love and appreciate the Immortal Bard and his works. I planned to tell you this at the Gathering, but at the last minute I could not make it. I'll see you again next year though.

Not just Shakespeare, you inspired me to pick up a book.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your new posts on the very early documents for the series, and wanted to thank you for them. The one that particularly intrigued me was the one where Goliath (or the Goliath-equivalent character) was an artificial creation of an evil wizard (the original version of the Archmage?), and the rest of the gargoyles were, in a sense, his "artificial creations". That was certainly a bit of a surprise, seeing that the early days of the series were taking the slant on gargoyles that you finally rejected, that in the first draft stage they actually were statues brought to life rather than members of a pre-human race that arose through natural means.

I was also amused to see the "lock, stock, and gargoyle" phrase in there because I recall that it made it into the finished product, when Elisa uses it in "The Thrill of the Hunt".

At any rate, thanks for that post.

Blaise writes...

THE MIRROR

When this ep first aired I made a mistake in programming my VCR so I missed the entire first Act. I was quite happy when I finally did get a chance to see it (I got a more thourough intro to Puck, saw how Demona stole the Mirror, what was so special about the Mirror, and what the heck Hudson had meant by describing Puck as one of Oberon's Children--I've become much better educated since then). Despite this, I wasn't too lost with the other two Acts. In fact, even missing the first Act, I found myself thouroughly enjoying this ep!
Added Note: I always wondered whether Elisa's frozen image in the Mirror was intentional (it seemed too blatently obvious to be a complete mistake). And I never even recognized Elisa when she was disguised.

Elisa definitly looks good as a gargoyle. Maybe it's the skin color, ears, or just the way she's now dressed (I always thought Puck assimilated her jacket into her skin--the colors are slightly similar), but at the time, I thought she looked even better than Demona (and would THAT have been a blow to D's ego). As if it weren't enough for Elisa to be able to kick her can when they're both in the same form (as gargoyle and as human, Elisa always wins).

Puck himself is an absolute riot. I wondered who the wonderfully dry and sarcastic fellow providing that little elf's voice was. Imagine my surprise when it turned out to be Brent Spiner (I had only ever seen him as Data). He has great lines, as you pointed out, and makes for some hilarious hijinks. One of my favorite moments though is when Bronx comes at him. "Let's improve your looks!" Bronx turns into a wolf-hound. "Should've tried the chihuaua" (sp?).
I (along with Entity) am actually glad that Puck didn't end up breaking the fourth wall. Sure, it might have been fun, but it really does seem as if it would have been distracting to me, and would have damaged that "realistic" edge to the characters. I think Frank and Dennis (or was it Bob?) made a good call on that one (not to put you down or anything).
The inclusion of Puck in the series was a pleasant surprise--such a fun and interesting character from Shakespeare put into my favorite show and balancing out the more solomn and serious Macbeth. The revelation that there was a whole race of creatures just like him whetted my appetite for more magic.
I got the whole "switched perspective" bit--quite easily I might say. And I did enjoy some of the scenes that resulted in. All these gargoyles going about like normal everyday humans. Running from our heroes when they are changed to humans, and trying to attack the Trio. One of my favorite moments in the whole series there:
Brooklyn--"Hey, we're the 'monsters' remember? So..."
The Trio give pathetic human imitation growls and try to look threatening.
Attacking gargoyles--"Oh." Run away, screaming.
All the while I'm ROTFLMHO. I also enjoyed Hudson's line to Goliath when all the garg-peoples run away--"Are you sure this is a good idea?" Just the line, the situation, and Ed Asner's reading off it make it hilarious.

Another reason I like this ep so much is the focus put on Goliath and Elisa. Unfortunately, you and everybody else have already repeated all their great exchanges, and little moments. (sigh) So, there really isn't much more that I can add, other than how frustrating and sad their final moment in the episode felt.

Demona as a human in the daytime (I understood the spell right off). I cannot express to you how excited I was about this development. For quite some time I was hoping one of the gargoyles (or a new one) would have the ability to transform to a human during the day (just for fun, on my part). Demona worked for me, both because it increased her danger, and was full of wonderful irony. Her horrified "NOOOOO" and smashing the Mirror were great character moments. Since I didn't know about the tiers and tentpoles system then, I always wondered why it took you guys until HIGH NOON to bring her "human-problem" back into the picture. I also loved how her first impression of the sun, and Hudson's last, wistful line in the ep, show gargoyles' feelings about the sun. I don't know why, I just do.

This was the first ep I watched twice and more while I had it on my tape (and the first one I all but forced my family to watch). Excellent.

Abigail Thorne writes...

Hey Greg,

While reading the posts, I've noticed how a bunch of people have complained about the World Tour. They thought it was too dull, went on too long, neglected the rest of the clan back in Manhattan, etc. I get their complaints, and I can understand their point of view.

But I for one loved The World Tour and the changes it brought to a show that I already loved. It expanded and enhanced the "Gargoyles" universe while moving along certain plotlines crucial to the story. Here's a few of the things I liked about it:

1) Angela. Love, Love, LOVE Angela!! The World Tour introduced her, and through her adventures I got to know her and love her as much as the rest of the clan. Her addition to the show was great--she brought out a side of Goliath's character I hadn't seen before, introduced the rest of the clan to her unique view of humans (she was raised by them, after all), and made a interesting development to the Goliath/Demona relationship. Plus Angela was smart, kind, and beautiful, a sensitive being and cunning warrior all wrapped together. I also liked her relationship with Elisa, who had a better mother-daughter relationship with Angela than Demona did (just one more reason for Demona to hate her). Great character, great move for the show.

2) The Third Race. I got to see more members of the Third Race!!! Odin, Banshee, Anubus...I loved them all, and the episode with Oberon and Titania was a gigundo bonus! Then there was the New Olympians, Loch Ness Monster, and other legendary beings who popped in. As a rule, I love mythology, magic, and fantasy stories. Greek mythology in particular has always held a place close to my heart. So tuning in each day and learning that the gods, monsters, and mystical beings from various cultures were real and had an influence on the ("Gargoyles") Universe was very, very cool for me.

3) New and Old Faces. We got the Pack, TWO Coyotes, Sevarius, Thailog, Demona, Macbeth, Xanatos, Renard, and others I'm probably forgetting. But we also got the new gargoyle clans and a host of other interesting new characters who would have played a larger role in the series had it continued. I loved how old mixed with new and created fresh stories and new possibilities. It kept me excited from day to day as I waited for the next installment--who would show up next, someone old or someone new? Very cool indeed.

4) Exotic places. The show left Manhattan and got to explore the world. The different locations offered new challenges in their own rights as the group had to cope with various climate and cultural differences. Makes me happy.

There are others, but this post will get too long, so I shall conclude:

Did I miss the Trio and Hudson? Sure. Was I disappointed that I never got to see how Xanatos would take advantage of Goliath's absense to make trouble for the others? You bet. But despite that, I loved the World Tour and the changes it brought to the series. I looked forward to the new adventure each day, and I wouldn't have you take back any of them.

Just thought you'd like to know.

Siren writes...

The Mirror

This is just about one of my favorite episodes, if not THE fav. I loved everything about it. The animation, the style, the music, the story, the characters. As you said, this was the point when Goliath and Elisa's relationship is officially established. For one brief night, it was a perfect world...besides Demona running amok. Elisa was the most beautiful gargoyle I had seen on the show. I loved her colors and her face. The animators kept her features, but brightened them. When she first sees Goliath after her transformation and when she goes to glide, but gets afraid. Both those moments, I loved with the Elisa garg. I have always loved and respected the show for it's seriousness, but I do also like the humor points now and then. Puck was a wonderful addition to the show. He messes with Demona so much. It was great. Because unlike Elisa, Goliath, etc. there is nothing she can really do. I love Puck's one liners. He's a wonderful trickster. And this show got me to go out and read Midsummer's Night Dream and see the movies on it. I never cared much about Shakespeare till I saw this show. When Macbeth first appeared, just weeks later, my English class had to read the play, and I had a leg up on it. I knew the story was different, but I had the general idea. My reaction to Demona being human...laughing hysterically. I love the irony. She was to become the very thing she hated. I feel Demona is too far on her high horse to come down and admit she did have a torch still for Goliath, but I didn't know it till then. I think by the time Hunter's Moon came around, the torch was long dead, but her hatred for Elisa grew even more..."How dare Goliath choose another over me...and how dare it be a HUMAN of all vial creatures upon this Earth!"-kinda thing. All in all, I did enjoy this ep. It was a big turning point

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your ramble-review on "The Mirror". I enjoyed that, and decided to give my own comments now.

I always liked this one, although the first time that I saw it, seeing Elisa and the other humans turned into gargoyles unnerved me just a bit. I thought myself that the Goliath/Elisa scenes were nicely handled (although, the first time I saw this episode, I don't think that I actually picked up on what was going on between them, which is a bit on the embarrassing side). And I thought that the bits about the characters' memories getting switched when they were transformed were well-done as well. (Good thing for the New Yorkers that Puck thought to handle their memories accordingly; I don't even want to imagine the results of all those humans in New York suddenly realizing that they've been changed into bat-winged creatures).

Brooklyn obviously must have taken his own advice from his conversation with Lexington in "Enter Macbeth" about Shakespeare's plays, judging from his "Midsummer Night's Dream" comment. (And Demona obviously must not have read that one, or she'd have known from the start that employing Puck to get things done isn't the wisest course in the world, considering the mess that he made of the whole Lysander/Hermia/Demetrius/Helena business. I've sometimes wondered if he was indeed telling the truth to Oberon about "All those Athenians look alike to me!" :) Just goes to show that Xanatos made a sound decision in choosing a lifetime of service from Owen over a wish from Puck).

Oddly enough, I missed that bit about "You serve the human" until AFTER I found out from "The Gathering Part Two" that Owen and Puck were the same, but then I started suspecting that "the human" was a reference to Xanatos even before you confirmed it.

And I agree with you about "changeling" being misused; properly speaking, it should refer only to faerie children in the human world like your version of Morgan le Fay. (Then again, Shakespeare misused the word himself when he applied it to that little Indian prince, who was actually the human baby swapped for a changeling, so you're in good company).

And I've sometimes wondered about Elisa's red jacket and shoes disappearing and reappearing myself.

One thing that I sometimes wonder about this one: what was all that medieval weaponry doing in the shop window that Demona smashed?

And I thought that Puck's little gift to Demona was a great touch for the series. It makes her much more dangerous (they can't use the same strategy on her any more that Hudson used in "Long Way Till Morning"), and inflicts upon Demona the ultimate irony: she, who hates humans so much, now has to regularly become a human herself in the daytime.

Oh, and I was delighted with the inclusion of Puck and the revelation of faerie-folk out there in this story. One step of "Gargoyles" that I was pleased by.

Thanks for the ramble.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is more of a ramble/comment than a question, but I thought that I'd print it here.

I've noticed that every so often, you get questions about whether the Illuminati are evil (the last one of which you answered with "Not in their opinion"). I've occasionally thought over the Illuminati of "Gargoyles" myself (an intriguing organization, and I was always a little sorry that it never really got that much development in the series, and hope that if you can get the series relaunched, that could change), and have one or two thoughts on the issue.

It's obvious enough that the Illuminati can't be considered utter saints. They do have decidedly unscrupulous members in their ranks such as Xanatos and Mace Malone, they operate the Hotel Cabal, they receive money from organized crime through blackmail(as revealed by Matt in "Revelations"), they helped Castaway set up the Quarrymen. Duval himself has undergone some sort of physical cost from the Grail for the Society's actions, indicating that what the Illuminati do can't be right from the Holy Grail's perspective.

But at the same time, we don't know, as yet, the full story behind the Illuminati. We don't know how characteristic of them such methods as the Hotel Cabal or the Quarrymen are; for all that we know, such underhand schemes may represent only a small percentage of the Illuminati's activities, and the bulk of them might be of a different nature. We don't know what its present goals are; it's entirely possible that the Society still follows Duval's original goal for it of "making things right".

The picture of the Illuminati that we have from the series (primarily "Revelations", the only episode that deals much with the Illuminati's present-day activities) isn't all that favorable to it. On the other hand, if all that we knew of Goliath and his clan was that they were strange bat-winged creatures that only came out at night, were fierce warriors, and delivered a raid on Cyberbiotics, we could find it all too easy to view them as dangerous monsters. Is it possible that we may be judging the Illuminati the way that the frightened humans in New York in "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" judged the gargoyles? Maybe our gut reactions to them are the correct ones, but we don't know for certain as yet.

michael writes...

did you know in your clips did it come from some other episodes like the one where brooklyn is killed how did he get killed?

Aris Katsaris writes...

Lighthouse in the Sea of Time:

As with all eps I saw this one with Greek dubbing - but in this ep there was something both unique and interesting/funny... I got reminded of it when in the memo you described the problem with the language of the scroll...

The thing is that though the entire ep was (as normal) dubbed in Modern Greek, when Macbeth starts reading the scroll he switches into *Ancient* Greek. At that time I had thought the original had Macbeth reading in Middle or atleast Elizabethan English, or some other kind of archaic-sounding language, which the translators simply rendered as ancient Greek. Only later did I realise that it was solely the translator's doing, with no corresponding change of language in the original...

It was a very nice touch, I think, and praiseworthy - it atones (atleast in part) for a couple horrendous mistakes in the dubbing of other eps... :-) But ofcourse that doesn't mean there wasn't any problem with it. Ancient Greek is far closer to Modern Greek, than Celtic is to English; nonetheless it's far enough that the first time I got only a very general sense out of the words, that Merlin was describing his first impression of Arthur... :-)

Ambrosia writes...

THE MIRROR!
Yeah, this one is totally one of my favorites.
On Brooklyn's line about A Midsummer Night's Dream, you said, "I hope we sent a few people to the library with that line." As I've mentioned, I was storming the library the next day.
Elisa's reaction to being changed into a gargoyle kind of didn't work for me. Sure, everyone *else* thinks the guys are monsters, but she's supposed to know better. But when she sees the New Yorkers as humans... as they normally are... she goes, "Everyone's been turned into a... a human!" As if being the "other" is something horrible. You might say that their transformation is what she was disturbed about, but she was happy about Goliath's "transformation". It's as if she thought that if the clan were the same as everyone else, that that would make everything better.
BTW a couple times you've said "suspend belief" or something like that. Are you quoting S.T. Coleridge? Shouldn't it be suspension of DISbelief?
Oh, about Elisa's disappearing jacket... There's a part in Grief where the camera pans back and shows our heroes standing ready to fight and... Elisa's not wearing the jacket. Just her short-sleeved black shirt. In the next shot, the jacket's back. Anasatis (my best friend) and I have a running gag about that. Whenever something mysteriously disappears in any cartoon, movie or whatever, we say that it's made out of Elisa's jacket. Hehe. "Wasn't that guy just holding a briefcase?" "It must be made of Elisa's jacket."
New subject: I was hoping you'd see the bearded gargoyle lady this time. I'm surprised your kids didn't pick up on it. Kids don't miss anything. *shakes head* She's there, I'm telling you!!!! Right after Demona says, "Is it done?" and Puck sighs, "Yes." Okay, I'll drop it.
Romantic stuff: Goliath thought he was being so sweet, promising to always catch Elisa when she falls, only in the next minute to have to be caught by her. But it's sweet in reverse too.
It surprised me at the time for Broadway to be the one talking about finding love. But it seems perfect now.
The very end exchange with G and E always gets me. Goliath trying to talk things out and Elisa dodging the conversation. The wind was a nice effect.
Sigh. I love this ep. Well, thank you for reading!!
Wait, one more thing... your wife's name is Beth. Was *Derek* Maza named after anyone?

Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

A belated personal reaction to THE MIRROR. In the past, you've seemed curious as to how things came off to us. Did we get the implication here, or did we correctly interpret there. Well, here's something that really threw me initially. When Goliath describes the Third Race, he uses a lot of different nouns and adjectives. At first, I thought this new "Third Race" was going to be a contrived method of stuffing all other creatures of myth and fantasy into the series, in addition to the gargoyles, without having to give each one a unique background and history. In this way, you could bring in a unicorn, a minatour, an elf or an ogre, and you wouldn't have to justify them existing as individual species like the gargs, because they're conveniently blanket-labelled as the "Third Race." In short, I thought Goliath was describing a people more akin to the New Olympians, a collective, rather than a coherent species. Elisa's response was most responsible for cementing my conclusion, when she said, "Shapeshifters, elves, fairies, you mean they're real?" It sounds a lot like Elisa's interpretation of Goliath's speech was the same as mine.

As you could imagine, I felt quite betrayed and outraged. To forge such a unique, well-shaped universe and then just lazilly toss in everything else as if you said, "Well, on second thought..."

This wasn't the case, and the Third Race wound up being a wonderful addition to the series. But it took me a while to realize that. :)

Smelley writes...

Let me reiterate, you are a cool dude.
I too enjoyed the X-men movie. I thought most of your observations were pretty accurate, although I liked Summers, and disliked Storm.
I smiled at the inclusion of Gyrich and was glad it was there.
Personally, I really enjoyed seeing the opinions of people who weren't familliar with the franchise.

Smelley writes...

Comments on Lighthouse:

First of all, I thought this episode was irritatingly heavy-handed, but didn't mind because it was such a good message, and slick in it's presentation.

I'm afraid the opening sequence didn't come off nearly as well as you wanted it to.

I was very confused about Macbeth sealing the scrolls.

I liked Robbins, and was irritated that we didn't see more of him in later episodes.

But by far my biggest complaint regarding this episode was how Macbeth dismissed the scrolls as being worthless after realizing what they were. A learned man, especially one as cool as Macbeth, I would expect to value the lost journals of Merlin far more than Broadway.

Despite all my complaints, this was an enjoyable halfhour of television, and merely illustrates how high you and your team set the bar of excellence for yourself.

Oh, and I never made the Gilly--Gilgamesh connection. Neat.

You are cool dude, dude.

Cassandra writes...

Ramble on "The Mirror"

I've always had a thing about fae and I was bouncing up and down in my seat when you introduced them to the series. I also liked the fact that you used not only the "be careful what you wish for" but also "a fae is going to find the loophole if you leave it" and "if you piss a fae off they'll be sure to make you miserable". Demona should have done more research. But then she probably assumed that if the puny human Xanatos could control the Puck, she could too.

Moments I love: All of Puck's lines.

"Three races?"
"You know, Gargoyles, humans, and Oberon's Children."
"I thought everybody knew that."

Goliath's hand on his face moaning "No, no, no."

Broadway drumming his fingers on the floor after the Trio has crashed in the subway.

I also liked your observation in the first memo about guys being fundamentally stupid about romance. And the tender moment between Goliath and Elisa before Puck tears them apart works much better without dialouge.

I didn't realize the first time watching that Demona knew about the Owen/Puck and Xanatos connection. Looking back, the foreshadowing is hidden by Puck replying "Serving humans is fun. They have a sense of humor." It makes the situation they're refering to sound more like something Puck has done in the past, rather than a current situation.

Cassandra writes...

Ramble on "Lighthouse".

This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. The quote from the end is on the front page of my website. It sums up exactly how I feel about books and writing. It also shows the "magic" inherent in reading, a much better way to presuade people to learn how to read than telling them that they should. And Greg, I think you've gained that immortality.

I wish Robbins had come back as a character, he was great. And I loved that his dog was named Gilgamesh--even if she was girl.

The opening of the cave: I thought the harp was magic. Merlin was a magician, he could have owned magical artifacts. But the spell part of the scene worked for me, the energy version of an old man was definately seeing if these two fit the terms. The hestitation seemed more like an "oh wow" moment than a "stop and consider". I mean this is MERLIN's stuff. A way big deal.

I understood that Macbeth was reading what Merlin had written. Who were these people who didn't, the supposed target audience? (That's a dig at the age groups cartoons are "supposed" to be for). <G>

I agree with Erin that you didn't know what to make of Macbeth the first time watching this episode. But that just made him much more cool.

What happened to the lyre? A traveling exhibit of Merlin's stuff, complete with the translation of the Scrolls of Merlin (the ones by Merlin, not Robbins)? There was a lot of stuff in the cave.

Blaise writes...

LIGHTHOUSE IN THE SEA OF TIME

This is a good ep with a message that had the potential to be quite preachy. I'm glad you guys avoided that for the most part (I'll get to that later).
Yeah, Macbeth as the villain was pretty much tipped off at the beginning. It indeed would have been better if we had suspected Xanatos as the villain all through Act I. At least we got some dramatic irony out of the situation.
Anyway, Macbeth is always a good villain--and you just can't beat his first appearance here. The "Macbeth Theme" comes up in the background (and I love it, too), the lightening flashes, and Macbeth walks towards the screen. You'd have to go a long way to beat that. And I did associate that "Electricity Gun" (as I called it) with Macbeth (he and his flunkies were the only one's who used it).
Actually, Banquo and Fleance were pretty good too, as far as henchmen go. They had their own personalities and B.J. Ward and Frank Welker did good work with their voices. And yes, I have to smile when B.J. Ward talks to herself in the ep.

Animation-wise, I don't suppose it was too bad. *I* thought Elisa looked cute with the red cap. Though how she managed to yank it off without pulling out her hair (since she put it through the hole in the back) is beyond me.
I noticed that Goliath visited the Eyrie building and confronted Owen again (only this time with Brooklyn and Lex in tow), but it works for me.

Robbins...a great addition. Paul Winfield (that is his name, right?) did a great job on his voice (you were going to shoot for Ray Charles?), and his lines were very well written. I find his exchange with Hudson about the phonebook and his final monologue to be some of the best lines in the series.

The opening prologue with the archeologists (after looking at the credits for so long, I knew they were named after your writers and staff) serves it's purpose. The lyre's role is fairly easily deduced, and the full import of the spell on the chest becomes apparent in later viewings. But I agree it would have played better as you described it.
The Scrolls themselves presented a wonderful "Left-turn in the last Act" so to speak. I was quite surprised myself that they turned out to be a diary, and I have to agree that Merlin's Journal would indeed be priceless. I was pleased at the revelation.
I did think along with everyone else that Macbeth had sealed the Scrolls himself. Maybe knowing so little about Macbeth would make us latch onto anything that could even be remotely considered a clue. In later viewings I understood it, though.

On the moral itself...like I said, I felt it was very well done. I didn't find Goliath's mentioning the "library downstairs [being] full of books about [Merlin]" to sound like those Public Service announcements at all. Maybe it's because I don't pay any attention to them or because it just sounded like something Goliath would say (I mean, he loves reading). And I love how Hudson's illiteracy is revealed and handled. I felt it was quite moving. And Macbeth's speech about Arthur was good too. However, Broadway's growth is where I enter into a more grey area. I felt it worked quite well for the most part, especially his line "When your life is this exciting, who needs books?". However, his last speech...I suppose it isn't so bad, but it did seem a little thick with his expression "They take you there". It is true, and probably the best thing to say, but I just can't get into it. Maybe I'm just too used to reading to be able to fully empathize with Broadway's sense of wonderment.

Still, an ep I enjoy wathing. I just wonder how Broadway was able to rip open the hull of the harrier without any noise.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your ramble on "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", and here are my thoughts on that episode.

It will come as no surprise to those who know me well that this is one of my favorite episodes in "Gargoyles", and I don't even need to say why this is. :) In fact, one of the things that I really like about it is the way that it handled Merlin and the Arthurian legend. As I've mentioned before, lots of animated series do an Arthurian episode at some point, and particularly do so by including Merlin somewhere in it. But "Gargoyles" handled Merlin as more than just "some stupid magician", to quote Broadway. It focused on him, not as just a medieval wizard, but as King Arthur's mentor figure who guided him in the creation of Camelot. This particularly made itself plain not just in Macbeth's speech, but even in the fact that the precise part of the Scrolls that we hear Macbeth read deals with Merlin first meeting the young Arthur, presumably to take him on as his pupil. (And, given that this episode did include some teaching functions in the process, as in teaching Hudson and Broadway that reading is a worthwhile pursuit, I found that appropriate).

Indeed, that was precisely what I liked about "Gargoyles" handling Arthurian legend (and legends in general); it did so in a very intelligent and literate fashion, getting into "What is the significance of this story for us? Why does it still endure in our hearts after all these years?" This, combined with your comments here on Arthur and Co., make me certainly hope that you can either get to do "Pendragon" some day, or if Disney never agrees to that, create some other Arthurian series (as you've mentioned having hopes of doing).

One amusing side-note about this episode: I'd earlier read an article about what was in store for Season Two of "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine that mentioned that time travel would be a part of the season. So when I saw the title, I got the notion from the "Time" part of it that this would be the episode involving it, and that the Scrolls of Merlin would be the means for it. Turns out that I was wrong and that that element wouldn't show up until "Vows" - but I wasn't disappointed.

(I might add that I was certainly not disappointed by the revelation of the Scrolls' true nature, unlike Macbeth - if anything, that made them more exciting to me. An eyewitness account of Arthur's times, written by Merlin himself! Now that's a real treasure! Hudson and Broadway were right to urge Goliath not to burn the Scrolls! And I certainly can't help but imagine the boon that they'd be to Arthurian scholarship).

Macbeth's speech on Arthur and Merlin was not only a very beautiful one, but also helped illustrate his character a bit more and the fact that he had heroic qualities under his villain role. After all, he stressed with such admiration Arthur's ruling "with justice and compassion", something that only a man with some nobility in him could find a positive interest in. Even though he engaged in theft and planning to use Broadway for a guinea-pig, he still came across as not so bad a chap in some ways.

I agree with you that Goliath's bit about "books on Merlin in the library" does have something of a public service announcement, although I don't mind that. (I was initially puzzled as to what books on a legendary wizard would be doing in a police station, until I later on learned that the library that Goliath was talking about was next door to the station rather than part of it). I liked Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave" myself, and thought it a bit of a pity that you couldn't have Goliath cite it, although I can understand why it didn't get in. (Interestingly enough, the book was first published in 1970, so it would be having its 25th anniversary the same year that "Lighthouse" first aired).

And I also appreciate the differing angles of Hudson and Broadway's illiteracy; Broadway illiterate and not seeing why that should be so bad a thing, while Hudson is ashamed of his illiteracy and hides it. That was another lovely touch, IMHO.

Ambrosia writes...

Response to A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time
This is one of the few episodes I managed to record. I envy those who have the entire series, but I watch the ones I do have over breakfast all the time. (Have you ever noticed how there's never anything on in the morning?) It seemed to me that Lighthouse and Deadly Force played most often when Gargoyles was in reruns. Maybe that's my imagination, but it seems I groaned whenever this ep was on. Initially, I think the animation was a turn off for me. But seeing it many, many times during my gargoyles breakfasts made me realize the value and indeed, quality of this ep and now, ironically, it's one of my very favorites.
I liked how you dealt with the different reasons Broadway and Hudson had for not learning to read and how they paralleled the reasons given by teenagers and adults, respectively. Also, I thought it was responsible of you to refrain from mudslinging TV and other visual media. Like you've said before, a lot of good can come from other mediums, but shouldn't take the place of reading. Many people get preoccupied with bashing TV, saying it's the root of the evil in our kids today, etc. There is a lot of junk around, but there's a lot that isn't as well. Saying that TV is evil and glorifying reading doesn't accomplish much. A good balance between the two (and others) is what people should go for.
Jeffrey Robbins: I love this guy! I wish he were real so I could talk with him. Of course, the whole behind-the-scenes revelation that he was originally going to be a famous author and Arthurian expert makes me all the more thankful that he wasn't. Many times, the characters of shows are the BEST at something or the WORLD'S GREATEST this or that. It's important to remember that average people, doing something special like writing, can be interesting too. It gives kids a different place to look for heroes other than athletes and musicians.
Elisa: From Guinevere to a baseball cap? Care to elaborate? Since we've all only seen the episode that made it to the screen (of course) we have no idea why you were going to have Elisa dress like Guinevere. But hey, better that than the hat. It was totally impractical for the windy ship (even now, I keep expecting it to blow off in the wind) and it looked ridiculous on her. It's silly, but I smile when she throws it down in the alley in frustration. The hat's dead.
Broadway: I can't think of anyone who has matured as widely as Broadway. First he learns the terribly hard way to respect guns, and now he's back being ignorant again (about literacy this time), but he LEARNS. I love how he (Bill) whispers "But you describe it like you were there..." He says something similar to this in another episode. I can't remember the name or what happened in the rest of it, but Elisa helps him with a word he's struggling with without her having looked at the magazine and he pipes up, "Were you there?" But anyway, he's beginning to understand the importance of reading. By the time he's chained up in MacBeth's house, he's had time to think about it and desperately stops Goliath from endangering the scrolls (which Goliath had done in an attempt to save *Broadway*). I really thought his line was cheesy, though. "When you read them, they take you there..." Maybe not the line so much, but how he looked off into space and his voice got all mystical and mysterious... ah well, beautiful though.
Thank you so much for this episode and for taking the time to share your thoughts with us!

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of rambling about gargoyles in general which I finally remembered to submit.

One thing that I have to hand to "Gargoyles" is that it really did change the way I viewed gargoyles. Before the series came out and I started watching it, I'd always taken it for granted, whenever I thought of "living gargoyles" in a fantasy context, to imagine them as the "bad guys", given that almost every fantasy book, game, television program, or what-not out there portrayed living gargoyles as evil. (Particularly fantasy role-playing games). I wasn't even aware of gargoyles being placed on medieval cathedrals and castles to protect them from evil.

Then I watched the series, and was actually presented with the notion of "gargoyles as 'good guys'". I became interested enough in real-world gargoyles, as a result of the series, to read up on them and discover that indeed, their original function was as protectors. And since then, I've found my own attitude towards gargoyles to be more positive - in particular, I like looking out for architectural gargoyles wherever I can. (I've actually come across metal ones as a part of old-fashioned street lamps in my neighborhood). It's become almost hard for me to realize that I used to see gargoyles as I did before the series came out. (At the same time, though, those memories of how I used to view gargoyles make it all the more understandable for me why so many humans in the Gargoyles Universe would hate and fear gargoyles - which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement on the series' part of the modern-day angle on gargoyles, although the gargs are based ultimately more on the original medieval concept of them).

Just thought that you might find these comments interesting.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of addendum to my "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" response, since there were a couple of things in it that I'd meant to say but forgot about at the time.

One little touch that I always liked in this one was the brief scenelets with Bronx - first, when Lexington is yanking a magazine out from underneath him with great difficulty, and then when Hudson calls him, and Bronx jumps up, bounds over to Hudson's armchair, and lies down beside it again.

I don't recall having any problems over misinterpreting the "sealed by my own hand" part, but it is interesting to note that the closed captioning that I saw on my taped copy put Macbeth reading the Scrolls' inscription within quotation marks, indicating that they did recognize that he was reading the writing and that it was Merlin who'd sealed the Scrolls. (I just thought that I'd cite a case where the folks in charge of the closed captioning correctly interpreted something).

I was a bit surprised by your account that the lyre's music was caused by the wind blowing through it; I'd always assumed that it was playing by itself through some sort of magic (particularly given the way that it was shimmering). Thanks for clearing up the account of the visit to Merlin's cave.

(And, regarding Merlin's inscription on the chest, one reflection that I had about it was that the Scrolls truly would be valuable only to the "seeker after knowledge" and not to the "destroyer", as Macbeth found out at the end when he actually read them).

Charles writes...

just reading your lighthouse ramble

I was myself surprsied, and continue to be, at the same moment your daughter was, being the scene where Macbeth says he will test Merlin's magic on Broadway. It felt out of character. Even disregarding what we were to later know of him, up to this point he doesn't seem to be the same type of ruthless villain as Demona or Xanatos. He has already gained that grey shading of character and it is hard to get a handle on his exact motives, but it felt to me he was already established to be very interested in concepts of honor and wouldn't stoop to such actions as using a sentient being as a lab rat, especially after he'd given his word. It's not honorable.

After later episodes and more background is given on him, his behavior in this episode just feels even more out of character. It becomes established that he is a man of deep honor, and while he doesn't act altruistically, like the gargoyles, he doesn't act nefariously either. He acts in his own best interests, but within limits. His saying he'd test Merlin's magic on Broadway is teh equivalent of Xanatos about to test the Cauldron of Life on Hudson, but this just doesn't feel right in my understanding of Macbeth. Such an action is a depth I don't see him willing to take, no matter what his ends are.

I'm also reading your memo and getting uncomfortable about the term "villain" being used in regards to Macbeth as a description and as an explanation for his motives and actions in this episode. I guess it was always my own personal taste and regard for the character that I never once saw him in that light; I always saw him as distinguishly neutral.

I can understand when you say this type of confusion is exactly what you wanted, but sometimes I don't see it as much a story type of confusion, where we just don't know him yet and are trying to figure this guy out, but more as a consistency confusion, where his character in other places is inconsistent with his character here.

Just a few of my ideas. And I love being able to get this much discussion and difference of opinion out of a t.v. show.
Here's hoping to seeing you in Orlando.
8-)

Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

As I read the latest set of responses, I became inspired to share something. My grandmother was over one evening for dinner, and I was transfering Awakening 1-5 from one tape to another. Thus, it was playing downstairs. Well, my grandma sat down there for about the whole evening, talking with my dad and such. Now, some info on my grandma (since it's painfully obvious where this is heading): She's almost 80. It would be an understatement to call her a devout Catholic. She thought "Sister Act" was unwholesome. So, I was scared the whole evening that she'd eventually get to asking what show was playing. Instead, she came upstairs at the end of the evening commenting, in that 'stamp of approval' kind of way, that "that show" was really good. I mean, she honestly seemed damned taken with it.

Guardian writes...

In an earlier post, you said Gargoyles airs after 10 pm. However in my time zone it airs at 9:00 pm so your argument about the time it aired was invalid.

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

Not a question, but I thought you might appreciate an anecdote: The JSU at Columbia University sponsers a visit by a professional storyteller once a year. The first year the guest speaker was Penina Shram and she spent some time focused on trickster myths from around the world. She was taken aback by the small but vocal group in front that ~happened~ to know of every one she mentioned. Gargoyles was in the middle of the World tour at the time.

Cassandra writes...

Rambling about Legion.

Between Gargoyles and Highlander, the Silver Cup is on my list of places to see if I ever get to New York.

The backstory between Goliath, Othello, Desdemona and Iago was clear enough for the purposes of the episode. But vague enough to warrent an episode or a sub-plot in "Dark Ages." Iago strikes me as a bit like Xanatos, suave and charming when you first meet him but then you find out what he's really up to.

I realized that more than one person had to be inside Coldstone when he started going bonkers at Ellis Island. Though I believe my initial reaction was "he's possessed!", coming from the Bibical quote I believe. Much more cool to actually make the multiple personalties a part of Coldstone's creation. I didn't realize how much damage the computer virus was doing until I read your memo. So I guess sorcery is the reason Iago's soul/personality is still around in High Noon?

I like the idea that "subconsciously Demona knows her man." Her attacks on Elisa are tinged with so much jealousy, it's surprising her eyes don't light up green instead of red. <G>

Mike J. writes...

First a question, then a brief ramble...

Question: To your knowledge, were there ever any Rocky Horror Show jokes at Tim Currey's expense while he was recording Dr. Servarius? You know, him doing the whole mad scientist bit and all.

Ramble: I don't post here often, but I read what's here all the time. I hope the appearance of some treatise sized responces to your episode rambles illustrates to you how successful Gargoyles really was. Despite lackluster ratings, the people you reached, you reached deeply. Speaking as a writer myself, I think that's about the best we can hope to do.

Joel Hodgeson (creator of Mystery Science Theater 3000) was once asked if he ever worried that people wouldn't get some of the more obscure jokes/references he put in the show. He answered that it didn't worry him because the RIGHT people would get it. I think that sums it up nicely.

Damien writes...

I've just recently gotten into Gargoyles and love it so far, especially Demona. I have to say that I really feel sorry for the way she's been treated by humans in the past and it explains her behaviour when she meets Goliath again.
I loved the animation, even 'Enter Macbeth' wasn't that bad (the storyline compensates for the animation I suppose).
I'd have to say that the overall concept (good monsters fighting evil) was aimed at kids. But the individul
episodes, plots and storylines (including Shakespeare characters and plays) attracted an older audience.
I love the idea of the interspecies romance between Elisa and Goliath. It brings the two races together. This also probably attracted an older audience. If gargoyles was ever revived on television again, would you consider putting it on a channel that more adults watched? It might help the ratings of the show.
I was disappointed to learn that the I was watching re-runs of the show.
I can't wait to see the movie and I'm sure it will encourage Disney to revive the show again.

Abigail Thorne writes...

A few days ago I took out my store-bought copy of "Gargoyles, The Movie," which is the first five episodes without commercials. I was trying to remember why I hadn't watched it in a while. That question was immediately answered once I started watching it.

There are certain details in the movie--background music, sound effects, scene editing--that are either off or just plain wrong. The sound of Goliath crushing Elisa's gun, the arrows flying through the air during the Viking battle, the metallic sounds of the Steel Clan opening their wings and firing their cannons--they are all different, and they drive me crazy!! Then there's the background music, which either starts too late or is completely wrong for that particular scene. But the most excrutiatingly obnoxious error of all is the sound of the gargoyles gliding--it's this high-pitched swooping noise, like a mechanical glider, or something, I don't know what exactly, but it's NOT RIGHT!! {Loud scream of frustration!!!!!!!}

I know, I know, these are fussy nitpicks, but the little details really do effect the quality of the program. I'm a diehard Gargoyles fan who's seen these episodes dozens of times, so hearing a difference makes me cringe. So yeah, what's the point of this post? To ramble, to complain, and to ask if anyone else (yourself included) had noticed and were annoyed by the changes made in "Gargoyles, The Movie."

Thanks for letting me rant. And vent. I feel better now.

Tana writes...

Dear Greg,

Just read your Legion ramble...and I have to say this:

At the time when I first saw that Episode, I knew that Iago was trying to indicate that Goliath was betraying Othello with Desdemona, but I didn't understand why the credits listed the characters with such names. Boy was I naive.

A couple years later I was taking a Shakespeare class and read Othello. Can you imagine, about Act 2 somewhere we're reading it outloud and all of a sudden I say outloud: OH I GET IT. My friends thought I was insane. I had to give a quick explination for my outburst, which didn't help much to prove my sanity (none of them had watched Gargoyles).

Since reading the play Othello has become my favorite of the Shakespearian Tragedies (though I admit I have to read several more) And the Love "Pentagram" has become a delightful flavoring to the show.

I say Pentagram because I do believe that Demona would have been caught up in the whole mess. Especially given that Iago likens so well to the Shakespearian version. If he's going to ruin Goliath (and Othello as well) Then "In for a penny, in for a pound" Demona would have to go too. And probably the whole clan (including Hudson) probably would have been at Odds with Goliath thanks to Iago's whispering.

Which leads me to my first question:

1. Did the incident between Othello, Desdemona, Iago and Goliath occur before or after Goliath became leader to the clan? I ask because it strikes me that if after, Iago would not only try to win Desdemona, but Leadership as well.

2. Since Demona collected pieces of the shattered Iago to create Coldstone, we know he was banish from the clan. So what punishment was set upon Iago for causing such a clash between rookery brothers.

3. For that matter, would anyone have truely realized what Iago was doing, that he was responsible for it?

4. In City of Stone's flashback, we see Demona almost warning Othello and Desdemona about the upcoming attack. In one way, these two were used so that it wouldn't be just random gargs...But given the idea that Demona would have gotten tied up in the whole love scandal, it would seem Demona wouldn't exactly like Desdemona (even if the whole thing proved false; she's got trouble forgiving people) So why, in a character sense would Demona have gone to these two?

Well, I'm sure I had more questions along this topic, but I can't think of them after all that typing, so I'll let you get on with the other questions.

"So will I turn her virtue into pitch; and out of her own goodness make a net that shall emesh them all." -Iago (my fav quote from the play)

John D (Jack's Dad) writes...

Greg,

I hope you remember me and my son. We were at 1999 Gathering (Jack was the little boy dressed as Goliath in the costume contest). Anyway, we cannot attend the Orlando Gathering this year (despite having airline tickets) as I must go to SE Asia for business. Anyway....some updates for you as well as a question or 2

1 -In Japan, Gargoyles memorabilia is quite popular. I have been in Japan quite a few times and Jack has brought some of his Gargoyle figures etc;. AS we interact with more kids, they cling to the show. Of course, translating this into Japanese is time consuming...some of the references and history is impossible for me to adequately translate. But here is the point. With Pokemon and Dragonball Z very much the norm, the kids were taken by the STORIES, not just random colors flying by the TV. The kids have been asking questions about the Clan, and I am trying my darndest to aid them.

2 - As part of my business, Disney is a client. In June, we were on holiday and met up with a mid-level person from the main digs. We had dinner with our family (2 kids on my side, 1 on his) and our spouses. Anyway, trying to be polite, he asked my kids their thoughts on cartoons and the like. Jack is strange in that he is more retro than anything else. He is into Tetsujin 28 (Gigantor in the US) and Gargoyles. So this gentleman was given the perspective of a 7 year old that likes Gargoyles. As a Dad, the proudest moment was when the guy asked...Why is/was Gargoyles so special. (Actually Jack's answer made me proud, not the question) Jack's answer was a mix of normal 7 year old ramblings ("because I was at the Gathering in 1999 and will (as noted above we now must change 2000) also in 2000", "because I have so many toys from the series"), but the kicker was when he said.....because I could use my imagination....this from a 7-year old!. He gets it....if only Disney would.

3 - As I mentioned to you in Dallas, Carl Johnson lives very close to my US residence. He burned a CD of numerous Gargoyle tunes............ - real cool. Upon our return, we were going to bring down to the Gathering a full set of the Gargoyle music from Carl, but now this must wait until 2001. I promised to give him some Gargoyle items for his studio from Jack's collection.....He has a huge photo of the Gargoyles now.

4- lastly.... when we met you in Dallas, my son was overwhelmed. He is a true Gargoyles fan and he was very happy to attend. You and Thom Adcox were very gracious to him when you had a few minutes to spare. No one was around, just Thom and yourself and you made the day of a little boy. For that I am grateful. The true measure of character is doing something (the right thing) when nobody else is around to see it!

I hope the series comes back soon. I have seen many postings from the ASK GREG archives and my feelings are I would not change any of the 66 episodes you created..... except maybe wish there were at least 66 more.

If there is any additional insight on how we can aid your efforts to get the series back, I/we are open to suggestions. We have written to numerous Disney executives to seeming no avail.

Best of luck to you in the future. Hope to see you in 2001 at LA Gathering.

John D (aka Jack's Dad)

Blaise writes...

LEGION

At the time I first saw this ep, I did not know that any play such as "Othello" existed (stupid, uncultured me, I know). I always wondered how you guys chose the two names you did in the credits. Later, after I discovered the fandom on the 'Net, I learned that the names came from the play, and I eventually picked up a (edited-Signet) copy, and bettered myself. The character of Iago utterly fascinated me in it, for his sheer malice and his ability to dupe people so thouroghly. But on with the show...

I remember finding myself quite confused by Coldstone's personality shifts. When Desdemona and Iago showed up in his eye, I thought he was remembering previous conversations. Then (being the dense person I am), I finally got the situation in Act 3 when Desdemona pretty much spells it all out (even then, the Xanatos Program's part in the drama for me took a back seat to the interplay of the souls. It was in later viewings that I fully realized it's own influence).
One thing I noticed from your outline was that Iago had been briefed on his situation by the Xanatos Program. Unfortunately, I didn't see too much of that in the finished product. That they wanted Othello to go after Goliath was apparent, and then they merged, but I hadn't realised that they had been in cahoots before Goliath even entered Cyberspace.
BTW: That is a very cool scene where Iago and Program X merge. I just wonder what exactly that accomplished. Did it make Iago that much more powerful in Coldstone's mind?
And I also love the annoyance on Desdemona's face when Goliath hugs her--it's perfect.
On the subject of animation, the two scenes you mentioned--Coldstone/Othello attacking Goliath, and Goliath getting hit with the laser--didn't bother me so much. Othello's attack on Goliath would have indeed worked better had G been in shadow, but even the way it is, Othello strikes me as very on-edge at that moment, and may have been more ready to attack first than look at his visitor. As for the laser, once again I rationalize--the laser has variable power settings, and Iago, though he may know how to work the laser hadn't taken the time to see what power level it was on. It works for me.
My gripes with animation come on a different scene. When Lex, G, and CS are flying to the Clock Tower, and Lex talks to G, the image gets flipped. Not only do the characters switch positions on-screen, but Coldstone's robotic/cannon arm has suddenly become his left. Also, I've always preferred Coldstone's eye to be black with the red iris (as opposed to the white with the red pupil here).

Once again, my density shines through with RECAP. It wasn't until the second viewing that I noticed the Scarab logo (THANK YOU for telling us why that was the logo of Xanatos' robotics stuff). I think I may have looked away from the screen then. But the tag is still pretty good. This ep, and the two eps preceeding it, are what I like to call "Xanatos' Winning Streak." True, he may not have had COMPLETE victories, but he seemed to get more than he lost (or at least seemed to feel that way).
Matt handling RECAP made sense to me, and the "six months of manuals" line seemed like a nice touch (anyone handling high-priced equipment would have to be at least that knowledgable of it). I also love his reaction when he finally tracks down the visor and finds a rat instead of a creature (oooh, he's gonna get some razzin' back at work...).

Good ep, all around. Just one final note. Clancy Brown's character in "Highlander" is called "the Kurgan"--not "Kragen." Just thought you should know.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your ramble on "Legion" this morning, and my comments on it.

The thing that probably most excited and delighted me about this episode was the bit in the ending credits which named the two new gargoyles introduced in this story as "Desdemona" and "Iago". I wasn't quite certain if I actually had seen those names in the ending credits, and so I was pleased when I later on discovered Gargoyle sites on the Internet and was able to get that information confirmed. But I was pleased by the Shakespearean reference there, and saw at once the appropriateness of it.

("Iago" really does look like a gargoylized version of the way that his namesake usually gets depicted in Shakespearean art - lean, saturnine visage - although I should add that the most convincing interpretation of Iago that I've yet seen in a Shakespearean performance was by Frank Finlay when he did the character in the Laurence Olivier "Othello". Finlay's Iago, while still definitely villainous, *looked* like a bluff and honest soldier, which, to me, made his ability to dupe Othello far more convincing. It bothered me to have to imagine Othello as stupid enough to get taken in by somebody who looked as if he was about ready to sprout horns and cloven hooves any moment).

"Legion" strikes me as a story that one can better understand when you're seeing it a second time and know that there are two other gargoyles stuck inside Coldstone. The first time that I saw the initial shift from Othello in control of Coldstone to Desdemona in control of Coldstone, in the clock tower, I thought that the computer virus had simply caused some sort of short-term memory loss. When I later on saw it again, however, I understood what was really going on here, and found it very effective.

The Biblical background for "Legion" - in a couple of the Gospels, Jesus heals a man with insanity, which is treated in the story as demonic possession. Jesus asks the demon for its name and it replies, "I am Legion, for we are many." (This is the occasion where when Jesus casts out the demons, they immediately flee into a herd of swine nearby which immediately drown themselves).

Incidentally, I've sometimes found it a bit of a pity that we never saw a story where Xanatos would be putting that virus to use, which I was expecting him to do at some point in the future. Of course, if "Gargoyles" ever gets revived, maybe we will.

Jay P. writes...

hello

i just whanted to take the time to say thank for all your eforts in make Gargoules. And allso taking the time to anser all our questions. Allso i love your rambles about the episodes. i can`t what to read the next ones.

i hope you and you famally have great lives.

Razorclaw writes...

Comments on Metamorphosis:

What an episode! This rank on my favorites! The whole idea of having Sevarius looking different at the beginnig and at the end confused me. I didn't realized until "The Cage". Of course, I understood eveything on the reruns.

And yes I got fooled by the Sevarius's fake death, but I don't watch Gargoyles to try to guess what will happen, but to be suprised and impress. Of course that's why I've put high hopes on TGC some years back and it hurted a lot when I saw the results.

A final word, there's not always happy endings, but they make realistic and original twists. In those cases I say: "I can't wait to see the next episode where they resolve that!"

Puck<40> writes...

la la la... bored. going to comment on "Enter Macbeth".
what can I say? badass. I saw the show from day one. I was surprised by every turn of events. Elisa still having crutches made me think.... wow. show has continuity. impressive. Would Goliath lose the castle? I didn't think he would. It wouldn't follow the typical "villian of the week" shows. Fooled again I spose... Xanatos not caring about the Gargs... just happy to be home. And you can tell he was impressed with Macbeth. Of course... he never saw Macbeth in his own castle. That would've completely stunned him. Shot for shot. He went shot for shot with Goliath. I was just watching like. "oh my god, he's not just fancy gadgets man". It was here that I thought he was *the* Macbeth. Just maybe.. a possible sure he might be before. But to go blow for blow like that. Wow.

Loved Brooklyns "ow *bzstz* ow *bzstz*". Bronx running through the streets and Goliath diving down to get get him. That would've scared the hell out of me if I was in one of those cars.

I didn't like something though..... Macbeths way of weilding the sword. He seemed to me like he should've been more talented than to do an overhead charge. I mean the reflection in the sword spoke BADASS! He's gonna get some! And then... blah. But the drop down from the trench was amazingly cool.

And one other thing... Owen. I always loved him as a character. He took Hudson down! Its here you know he's definitely got more to him. Outnumbered, I saw why he drew the gun, I don't think he would've ever fired. It seemed to me like how one man can hold back a mob with one bullet and one gun. Thats why I think he drew. Of course Elisa had to go and wreck it. =( I think I routed for the villians in this show more than the heroes. I *wanted* Macbeth to win.

Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.

Siren writes...

No questions, just a worshipping moment...
I have said this before, long ago, but the more I watch tv nowadays, the more I feel I need to thank you for such a wonderful show that actually had a point to being made, besides mindless entertainment. It's a shame where tv has gone. Most shows for kids teach nothing. Especially Nickelodeon and the new Cartoon Network crap they keep shelling out. I believe it is the parent who needs to set examples, but unfortunatly, majority of these kids role models and such are not their parents, but bumbling idiots from tv. So with all the tv kids do watch, they should have some message in them. Gargoyles had that. As does shoes like X-Men, Spiderman, and Batman. They aren't always right on the surface for all to see, you have to dig a little deeper. In just one of your episodes you covered racisim, family values, violence, etc. It was just great! When I use to babysit, I had this one boy who loved guns, only 6 at the time. So I brought Deadly Force. What shock he was in when he saw Elisa near death. Majority of cartoon shows don't go that deep. Unfortunatly it wasn't enough to make him stop loving gun and he still thinks he's a big shot cop 4 years later, but at least for that one moment, he was concerned about guns. I love the whole racisim deal in there as well. The Hunters/Quarrymen remind me of the KKK, though nothing is said, it just took that bit of looking farther. You have these scary looking creatures who are gentle, kind, loving...just like humans. And just like humans, there are good and bad gargoyles. No one race is totally the nicest people. I wish Disney would not have started forcusing on those more cartoonish shows like Doug, Recess, Hercules, etc and focused more on a show with depth and character. A show that isn't easily forgotten and displaced. After these years without new eps of Gargoyles, my love for it has not weakened, neither has the hope that they will bring it back, in one form or another. Thank you Greg for such a wonderful show. I have a young daughter who'll be 2 in October, I plan to let her watch Gargoyles in a few years, when she understands it a little better...*sigh* Till then, I am stuck with Teletubbies. LOL! I already have her a Gargoyle t-shirt.

Sharon writes...

I'd just like to make a quick comment about the show. Sadly, my only exposure to Gargoyles comes from Toon Disney. Consequently, I have never seen the episode where Elisa gets shot. Therefore, I appreciated your rambling on the episode.

Finally, someone else asked if you would like the chance to air a more "adult" Gargoyles on stations like HBO. I am an adult, and I love the show as it is (was). Indeed, I think the show is geared to people of all ages. The stories were intelligent and interesting. Although I admit I would like to see the original unedited version of Gargoyles, I would hate to see a change in the basic spirit of the show. Gargoyles (in my humble opinion) is not Spawn. It doesn't need (nor should it contain) the same level of violence, sex or cursing that was evident on that show. I have nothing against Spawn (heck, I watched it when I could), I just like the ... I guess ... innocence of Gargoyles. I believe that a more violent or sexually charged show would cheapen it. Although I agree that the more liberal atmosphere offered by cable would be great, I would hate to see it change the tone of the show. Or, to fall back on an old cliche, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
(So ends a ramble of my own).

Blaise (repost by Aris) writes...

ENTER MACBETH

I'm sorry to hear you guys had such trouble with keeping the continuity straight in this one. But I'm very glad you did.
It always impressed me that you guys put Elisa on crutches and didn't have her "right as rain" in the episode after she got shot.
One thing that makes me smile in this ep is Xanatos's prison cell. A rug, a nice desk with computer...even in PRISON this guy lives better than the people around him. I love his line, too, when he's in the cafeteria: "Just like mom used to make--when mom was a prison cook." Xanatos calls it a "learning experience." What did he learn--not to get caught again? ;-)
And Macbeth, WOW! I didn't really know it was John Rhys-Davis doing the voice at the time (I just wondered who the Sean Connery sound-a-like was), but everything about him was arresting. The way he held his own against Goliath, his connection with Demona (I was totally floored when he said he had named her), and his overall style was just wonderful.
I also liked the fact that the gargoyles DID have to leave the castle. It didn't surprise me as much because I had already figured they had no choice. A castle is just not so easily won anymore. However, I didn't know that it was a Clocktower to which they were moving--I thought it was Elisa's home. Silly me.
Yeah, I noticed the use of repeated dialogue--easily ignorable for me in Elisa's case, but not so much with Lex and Brooklyn. And the animation does have areas I don't particularly care for, but with this good of a story it doesn't really matter.
Goliath's appearance on the street is pretty impressive, but a lot of us still tend to wonder how so many people seeing him still put "living gargoyles" as an urban myth. I guess the ol' ignore-'em/publicity-stunt mentality is pretty strong, eh?
I always enjoy Brooklyn and Lexington's banter when they're in the cage. Brooklyn constantly touching the cage and giving out a dead-pan "Ouch" is always amusing. Then there's the part where Goliath lets out a roar while in Macbeth's house and Lex just says in a subdued voice "Bronx must've found Goliath" with only Brooklyn's equally-subdued "Yeah" as a response. I LOVE that part.
Goliath laughing maniacally--so in addition to inheiriting Goliath's temper, Thailog also inherited his laugh. At least we now know the answer to Hudson's question in DOUBLE JEOPARDY. Actually, I kind of like it that the hero gave a maniacal laugh. The gargs still have that edge here.
And how about Owen? I still think it kicks @$$ that he took down Hudson and pulled a gun on Broadway in trying to protect the Grimorum. Shame he didn't keep an eye on the injured party, though. Still he demonstrates once again why he's head and shoulders above all "villain sidekicks."

Pyro X (repost by Aris) writes...

Enter MacBeth and Deadly force:

I thought the Animation in Enter MacBteh wasn't half bad. I thought the expression on MacBeth's face when he see's Bronx escape [He pulls his his towards his chest and his teeth go in a figure 8] was funny. I also liked the Goliath expression on his face when he said: "How dare you!"
Also, the stained glass of Demona and MacBeth: Great forshadowing. the sword part... now that just looked cool.

the one part I though was stupid was when Goliath smashed the brick wall. You could see the outline of the hole he was ABOUT to smash! seesh.

I knew something was up between Demona and MacBeth when I saw the glass. But it became way more clear when he said, "I want your queen." Still, I loved MacBeth's Character. I still do.

Deadly Force: When Broadway is flying out of the woods, he goes up, the trees go down and the city comes up. I though that was very cool. When Dracon laughs at stealing the guns, it's a comical laugh. It just looks funny. Go figure.

Derek seems like a no nonsense guy here... Ma Maza asks about calling up Sister Maza from Arizona... Derek says "Don't talk like that." [Or something to that effect.] Right then I knew that he was a tough guy, and would later have a bigger role.

What else? Nothing I guess. Most of what I liked contradicts what you like... but nobody's perfect.

Thanks!

Mike J. (repost by Aris) writes...

ENTER MACBETH

A series like "Gargoyles" is build (in my opinion) on the strength of its villians, and Gargoyles had some of the BEST villians going, especially Macbeth. Even Xanatos, in armor, didn't try to take on all the gargs at once (The Edge) much less succeed the way Macbeth does. Throw in the character's phenomanal personality and history, and you have one very engaging and dangerous guy.

As to the episode itself... I'm forced to agree it was the worst animation in season one. Did you notice in the final shot of Macbeth (in the tape Owen shows Xanatos) that he's got a mustache! Personally that bugged me more than the other probelems. At least keep the character's LOOK right! :)

My favorite part of the episode, amongst many cool moments: While Goliath battles Macbeth, Bronx frees Brooklyn and Lex by CRASHING BODILY STRAIGHT THROUGH THE ELECTRIFIED BARS! This time without the benefit of diveted current. This feat is so impressive it even shocks Brooklyn and Lex. Just look at their faces! I think their actually scared of him at this moment. In my mind, this established Bronx as being, pound for pound stronger than all the gargs, including Goliath.

My two cents... thanks for listening, er.. reading.

Ed writes...

"METAMORPHOSIS" - a big favourite of mine.

I liked Derek after "HER BROTHER'S KEEPER"; I suppose his situation was so believable and yet immensely gripping.

But "METAMORPHOSIS" stunned me. I remember that I timed this episode for some reason - I think I'd assumed up until then that cartoons were cut to exactly 20 minutes and wanted to check it out just out of curiosity. So when I was timing it I was thinking "yeah, right - how long until he gets his cure?" Despite everything, I thought they'd suddenly turn up with a cure eventually. Of course, when my watch told me the thing had been running 19 minutes, my eyebrow raised.

The ending was incredible. I was hooked. I just had to know what happened to Talon. In fact, GMTV never showed it. Eventually I caught "THE CAGE" on the Disney Channel (which I didn't have access to when they showed the episodes first time around). In fact, I think the first episode I saw on TDC that I hadn't already seen was "THE CAGE", which pleased me. That was great too.

I think the whole business of Sevarius' death play and the serum bothered me. How on earth could they have timed it so precisely that Sevarius had his serum to smash at the same time the "Gargoyles" arrived, and that he could be sure of a good way to "die".

Siren writes...

METAMORPHOSIS

I have a thing for cat-like characters as well. Catwoman from Batman has always been one of my favorite characters. So I liked the mutantes a lot. I love the electric eel thing too, it was very cool and very different. I like Talon's attitude. And Fang was a nice addition. I like Claw, but wish I could have seen more of him in the series. Maggie was a slight disappointment, mainly cause we didn't get to see her grow as much. They all seem to accept their new form later in the series, enjoy it even. Maggie was very different from the other mutants. She was more afraid, unsure, cautious...can't blame her. I am getting ahead of myself with this episode into other mutant episodes...but oh well...Maggie is very weak at first. Like a scared little kitten really. Very different from all the other strong female characters.
I think this episode also defined the moment for Brooklyn and all Brooklyn fans from then on. Here's ya got a handsome young gargoyle, who loves this new "gargoyle-like" creature and she blows him off, calling him a monster, even though she resembled a gargoyle. Then she runs to Talon. So ya got this sympathy for Brooklyn. Cause Lex and Broadway didn't seem as interested in her as he was. Ya got Demona even, in Temptation, to me, I felt that when he started to trust her, he started to like her, then she betrays him horribly. Then later, Angela goes for Broadway, when a lot of fans, including me, thought it would be Brooklyn. And poor Brook get's upstaged again, by one of his best friends too. Not that I wasn't happy myself. Actually, I like Broadway/Angela better then Brooklyn with her. Broadway isn't so "pushy"...I am gonna get it from all them Brook fans...So Brooklyn grows slightly from this. It's been over a thousand years, most of those sleeping, but the waking, with no females, so ya got this 16 year old boy, trapped on an island and suddenly the only female blows him off. It's hard for him and he develops the jealousy with Talon.
I also was slightly surprised, but certainly not disappointed by the ending. It was perfect for the episode and I wouldn't want to see it any other way.
BTW, I like look you developed later for the the mutants as well.

Blaise writes...

METAMORPHOSIS

Ah, one of my favs. Pity I missed it the first time it aired.
Throughout the second season, the show was on while I was still in school, so I had to tape it all the time. Three times the VCR, for one reason or another, failed to tape. Each time, the eps that aired were new ones--METAMORPHOSIS, THE CAGE, and KINGDOM (are you sensing a pattern here?). What made this twist of fate REALLY cruel is that these are some of my favorite eps. I love cats for one thing, so I was instantly attracted to the Mutates. This episode was also the one that cemented Brooklyn as my favorite character, so there's another. And, in two of the missed eps, Tim Curry, one of my (again) favorite actors, is featured.
Missing this ep didn't put me too far out of the loop. The only reference to it I picked up was Elisa's remark in EYE OF THE BEHOLDER that the Werefox was "human once, just like [her] brother." For some reason I didn't catch the reference to "mutated victims" and in OUTFOXED, after an initial "Huh?", I forgot about Renard's mention of some "Anton Sevarius" (keeping the strength of THAT revelation safe until the second time around). But, I digress. On with the ep itself.

Brooklyn's attraction to Maggie (whom I instantly recognized and grew interested in--what can I say, I have an affinity for cat-women) intrigued me. I always wondered if the fact that she wasn't a true gargoyle even mattered to him. Did I root for him and Maggie to get together? Not neccesarily. Did I *expect* it? Actually, yes. The attitude Brooklyn displays here is usually as deep as most animated shows go in depicting "love." After some intiial shock, my admiration for the series increased when Maggie wound up with Talon and Brooklyn's attraction was shown as just a crush. Regardless, his "love at first sight" mentality was something in Brooklyn I found appealing (a fellow hopeless romantic, perhaps). His experiences here and his final acceptance of the facts grabbed my notice and from this ep on, I always tended to favor him (though I made an effort not to do so at the expense of the other characters).
Looking at the ep, knowing what I know about the characters now, Brodway's ability to "read people" versus Brooklyn's self-delusion is very nicely juxtaposed, and they have some good exchanges. When Brooklyn tells Broadway "You don't know anything about her" there is much irony--Broadway knows more about her than Brooklyn does.

For what it's worth, I believed Xanatos (probably helped because I had seen EYE OF THE BEHOLDER before I got to see this). He seemed sincere enough to me, and mutation seemed ultra-slimy even for him. Boy was I surprised at the end. I was even more surprised by the end than by Sevarius' "death"--you guys had let people die in the series before, why not now? My surprise was tripled when I saw that Sevarius looked much younger and had a less thick accent than how he'd been played. I thought Sevarius the "mad scientist" was the real thing--he was voiced by Tim Curry who is usually thrown into the roles of over-the-top scientists and (in his own words) "east-European villains" so it was a pleasure to see a sort of send-up of type-casting in this. (And who couldn't recognize Sevarius? Even without the accent, he still had Tim Curry's inimitable pipes.)
The ending: Morbidly enough, this ending is one of my favorites because the good guys actually lost this round. Brooklyn's brooding and Elisa's crying really drove this point home. I am, strangly enough, reminded of a joke T-shirt: "Sometimes, the dragon wins."
And FINALLY! I now know who did the voice of the as-yet-unnamed Fang in this ep. I knew it wasn't James Belushi (it didn't have quite the same "growling" quality) but I couldn't for the life of me figure it out, something I can normally do. Truth be told, I would NEVER have guessed it was Jonathan Frakes (though now it seems so obvious to me). Still, the voices are similar enough, and even if they weren't, the Mutates' voices tended to change with their appearance (Rocky Caroll's (sp?) voice for Derek is different than his voice for Talon, and Kath Souci's voice for Maggie was slightly different in KINGDOM than for her first two appearances). But, nice trivia to know.
I hadn't really noticed how much the theme of self-deception was a factor in this, but it makes sense.
And yes, the animation is sub-par, but I just like the story so much I can live with it (and if I can live with the animation in KINGDOM, I think I can live with anything).
POINTLESS OBSERVATION> Not only does Hudson get left at the Clock Tower, but in this ep (as well as TEMPTATION) he doesn't get a single line). In fact his first words to Maggie are "Who's there?" in THE CAGE.

I'm sure there was more I wanted to say, but I think this message is thick enough already.

Punchinello writes...

Hello.
I see you are making progress with your backlog of questions. This question is kind of an ammendment to another question of mine.

A couple of months ago I asked if your idea for Owen was influenced by an archetype I referred to as being "a supernatural charachter indentured to a human master." I made reference to djinn being bound within oak or silver. Now, I dont recall if I was thinking this at the time, but...

I had just recently viewed "Prospero's Books" by Peter Greenaway again. There is a rather disturbing scene therin, of Ariel, bound in his "cloven pine." Spitting out splinters of wood and carring on. It's all rather ghastly. I had, in the past, made the observation that Ariel could be an other example of this archetype. I think, however, that I needed the emphasis Greenaway placed on certain elements to make some connections apparent to me. Of some peripheral interest is the fact that ariel is another spirit bound in a tree, but of greater interest is the stress placed on the characters servitude to Prospero. It was not much of a stretch to *read Owen* into the character.

OF GREATER INTEREST was how easy it became to read Xanatos into Prospero. I was struck by several things in this vein. The first being the parallel between the two men's status as "mortal's" who had aquired great power through supernatural means; particularly through the service of a captive spirit. (I realize the term "captive" does not really describe Owen's situation.) Further, Xanatos' collection of supernatural artifacts (The Eye, the Grimorrim, even the Gargoyles) could be a reflection of Prospero's robes and staff. The artifacts which empower him.

I also considered (perhaps on the heels of watching an adaptation that placed such emphasis on Pospero's Books) that the Grimorrim might be a volume Xanatos "valued above his dukedom."

I wonder also if a reading of Xanatos as *the exiled duke* would be too far off. Milan is in rather close proximity to Greece. I believe you placed Petros Xanatos as a native, there. While Xanatos may not have been physically exiled from his place of birth, it could be argued that his distance from his father and their conflicted relationship could be read as a kind of exile.

Now, I realize you have your reasons for not wanting to confirm or deny ideas that you had for the show, but were not able to elaborate on before it's cancellation. I read the anecdote about the guy who thought you had stolen his idea. (Wasn't he asking about the characters from "The Tempest," actually?) At this point, however, I think you have rather concretely established that Shakespeare plays a rather prominent and consistent theme in "Gargoyles." I cant imagine that anyone would not be inclined to believe that you were going for this reading from the beginning.

Maybe I'm completely wrong about all of this, but I'm sure it will elicit some interesting commentary from you.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your "Metamorphosis" ramble. Thanks for it.

"Metamorphosis" is one of my favorite episodes - largely because of what I thought was a very effective ending (Elisa letting Xanatos have it verbally for what he did to Derek, then weeping back at the clock tower); I certainly agree with you that it made a great tragic close to the story. Elisa's weeping scene remains for me, to this day, one of my favorite "great moments" in "Gargoyles".

And I was certainly fooled by Xanatos the first time that I saw this episode. I actually believed him when he made it look as if he wanted to help Derek. In fact, when he refused to let Sevarius cage Derek, saying, "He's a man, not an animal", I practically gave him a mental standing ovation. And then, of course, when I discovered the truth at the end....

But it's interesting to note that I got fooled by Xanatos even AFTER I was familiar with his being the main villain in the series. I knew perfectly well what he was capable of, and yet still actually wanted to think that his concern for Derek was genuine.

Sevarius's apparent death also took me quite by surprise; even though I knew that "Gargoyles" wasn't a typical Disney cartoon, I was still staring at the scene where he apparently gets electrocuted and Xanatos announces his death, with an attitude of "They actually killed somebody in a Disney television cartoon?" (Of course, I must have forgotten about the Wyvern massacre, the fates of the Captain and Hakon, and even Elisa getting shot in "Deadly Force" - although she doesn't actually die there - at the time). Sevarius turning out to be alive at the end definitely astonished me as well.

I don't recall, on the other hand, what I thought at the time about Brooklyn and Maggie's sub-plot (I hadn't even realized, I might add, until after reading your memo, that that and Derek's part of the story both shared the "self-deception" theme, although it makes perfect sense to me now). I did sympathize a lot with Maggie, though; she gets mutated as almost a conscript for a war that she knew nothing about.

One last little note of interest: although you don't mention it in your ramble, Xanatos and Sevarius tell an additional lie that doesn't even get exposed as a lie until later on in the series, about not yet having any gargoyle genetic material to create a clone from. And then we discover in "Double Jeopardy" that they'd already created a clone (given that they got the blood sample from Goliath needed to create Thailog before the gargs even left the castle in "Enter Macbeth").

As for Sevarius's name: well, I think that it's kind of appropriate that it would sound cliched, given the way that the guy revels in cliches.

Ray Kremer (repost by Aris) writes...

I'm writing this after reading your review of Enter MacBeth. I guess I don't have such a discerning eye, I don't remember noticing the animation. I did wonder how the fire spread so quickly in that stone castle, but some liberties can be allowed, I guess.

Continuity? Stuff's great. Elisa on crutches at the start - beautiful touch. Absolutely beautiful. The previously on Gargoyles clips also helped to reinforce the idea that there was something greater here than just episodic television. I didn't mind the early reruns either. Even though I was excited about a cartoon with Star Trek actors in it, when premier week came I forgot all about it until Friday. Just in time for the "surprise" ending that Demona and Xanatos were both bad guys. Oh well, you win some...

MacBeth. Fun guy. John Rhys-Davies has one of those marvelous voices. But I never gave him much thought until City of Stone. "You mean, MacBeth is the ACTUAL MacBeth? Cool!!!" That's gotta be one of the best surprise revelations in a cartoon show ever.

Hmmm, should there be a question here? Okay, how about this. Did you know our man David Xanatos made the Hall of Evil Geniuses? Yep, some guy's webpage roots for evil, and David's on it:
http://home1.gte.net/locke/genius.html

Blaise (repost by Aris) writes...

DEADLY FORCE

When I first saw this, I missed the first few minutes (it was on early in the morning where I lived and I accidentally overslept). I came in when Broadway was munching the popcorn. Still, when I did see the first few moments, Owen's actions didn't surprise me--I was already impressed enough with him (I had already seen his work in ENTER MACBETH). Dracon did make for an interesting addition to the cast of villains here. Not of the same caliber as Xanatos and Demona, sure, but in his own right he's pretty good.
Now, as for the shooting itself...how do I say this? I was surprised and I wasn't. Let me put it this way--I wasn't surprised that the show would have someone actually getting shot and I figured that Elisa would get shot the instant I saw Broadway pick up the gun. What DID surprise me was how close to death Elisa came. Not to mention the final image of Act I. Then of course there's the end of Act II where Elisa actually flat-lines. You guys always could do shocking cliff-hangers. Yeah, so you couldn't have Elisa die and make it real. She was the secondary lead. At least you did have her flat-line.
How Broadway deals with it is very well done. This is the ep that always impresses me about him. You're right, his rage here is indeed awe-inspiring. Everytime I see the way he handles Glasses I wince in sympathy. I'd hate to have him mad at me.
Him or Goliath. This is another thing I like about this series--the main hero has come close to killing someone in the name of vengence several times already. I like this edge--I like it that the heroes in this show are presented with very real flaws. And yeah, his unbeknownst-to-him-love for Elisa is pretty well shown here. I especially like the last moment the two of them have together.
Back on Broadway, compliments on pulling him out of the "eating machine" pidgeon hole. So many shows just designate a character as that and leave him there. Kudos for giving him something more.
Yeah, about the second or third time I saw this, I noticed it was Matt driving Chavez's car. That always brought a grin to my face the way you guys thougth ahead like that.
One of my favorite parts comes when Owen complains about Goliath destroying Xanatos's guns, and Goliath comments with a veiled threat; "I'll be happy to discuss the matter with him." Do you think he also destroyed those guns to get back at Xanatos? Not as a primary reason, but just as sort of a "bonus."

I always enjoy watching this episode for these little touches.

Ambrosia (repost by Aris) writes...

Don?t worry about coming off as arrogant, Greg. I love hearing your take on the episodes and I look forward to reading them. I always learn so much? Here?s my responses:

Kid movies and, yes, even Disney movies are obviously getting more and more violent. In 1936, the men working on Snow White said that it was too violent for them to take their kids to see. This summer, Clayton fell out of a really big tree with a vine wrapped around his neck and hung himself. A couple years ago, Frollo, obsessed with Gypsy Esmeralda, tried to burn her at the stake. Both of these things were violence and drama for their own sake. Deadly Force, as you said, was making a *statement*. A statement that REALLY needs to be heard these days. It?s easy to look at it superficially and go, ?Nope. Guns, blood. Can?t show that on television.? I?m upset that Toon Disney didn?t look closer.

About Elisa almost dying: I believe this is pretty close to what Doctor Sato said, ?The bullet entered high in the chest, ricocheted off the collarbone, nicked the heart muscle and passed through the right lung. I?ve removed it from the base of the spine.? Yeah. She?s damn lucky to be alive.

I liked what you said about time travel. You can?t change the past. I?d never thought about it farther than that that was the rules of the Phoenix Gate: time corrects itself. Like a river. But it?s true with or without the Gate. You CAN?T change the past.

Matt, as I recall, was also camioed in Her Brother?s Keeper. In his underwear. Briefs. Purple.

I work in a theater. We never keep bagged popcorn for more than overnight.

Tana (repost by Aris) writes...

Greg,

Read your "Temptation" Ramble, and there were a few things that I would love to point out about that episode.
First off: I loved the leather jacket and HOW brooklyn folded his wings under his arms. He really did look good in that episode. ^_^

Second: The bike. It was a cool bike! BUT, the bikers when they see it say: "Cool Hog." Now, okay people who don't know much about motorcycles would refer to any bike as a hog, but these Biker's would know better. A Hog is a Harley Davidson...and Lex's creation looked nothing like a Harley. I dunno if that was you, or somebody else. But oh well, it was still a cool bike.

Third: The spell. Now Elisa says: "I want you to act, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, as if you weren't under a spell." Wouldn't that in sense nullify some future spells on the big guy? I mean sure, Puck's spell worked well, cause he still ACTED like he wasn't under a spell. Were you maybe planning on keeping with this for future continuity?

oh, and I LOVE your little analizations (sp?) of the episodes. It really lets us get more into your head, and into the world of the Gargoyles.

Blaise (repost by Aris) writes...

TEMPTATION

While this isn't the ep that cemented Brooklyn in my head as "Favorite Character," I have to admit he is GREAT in it.
I still love Lexington's remark about building a horse from spare parts.
Demona's tour of the city--Yeah, the DEAD BODY surprised me too. Very powerful, very good, as were Demona's other two "examples" of humanity. Bennett and Sirtis did WONDERFUL jobs with their voice acting here.
As for the bikers not noticing Brooklyn, yeah everybody notices that. I just try to ignore it and that seems to work. If nothing else, most of the bikers in that scene WERE wearing sunglasses at night (as someone else already pointed out). Come to think of it, some of them weren't even wearing helmets....;-)
Elisa's finger--great, now that you've mentioned it, *I'LL* probably look for it and not be able to see anything else in the scene.
I was surprised to hear that Brooklyn's description of the Cloisters was taken by some folks as "proof" that gargoyles were not native to this planet. Anyone who saw the first two episodes should have understood what Brooklyn meant. Come to think of it, why WOULD people want the gargoyles to be from another planet?
One of my favorite lines in this episode--Brooklyn: "You hold the book, Demona. But *I* hold the *spell*!" I just LOVE that.
The resolution of the spell may have been a bit of a cheat, but it WAS a creative and original solution to the problem. So, you guys still get some points in that area.
Lex and Brooklyn talking about the motorcycle at the end and Lex's reaction are always enjoyable.
Pointless note: Hudson doesn't speak a single line in this episode. Odd, when I think about it. Still, you do at least SEE him a few times.

Good ep.

Entity (repost by Aris) writes...

This is (also) in response to Exolexy's commentary on the post-Avalon episodes. First and foremost, while I do not agree with Exolexy, I do not think it in good taste to make him an anti-fan; an object at which to toss glares as we hang on your arms.

With that said, I would like to say that the post-Avalon episodes had a very jarring effect on me, I believe similar to the one it had on Exolexy. I simply found things to be a bit overwhelming. "The Mirror" had been an early taste, but after "Avalon" things just skyrocketed.

Gargoyles had never struck me as that thick of a fantasy series before that point. My interpretation had been that the gargoyles were the sole fantasy elements, and that that was the premise: Fantasy creatures in a real world. But then the viel was brought back... and at first I didn't like it.

I was a sci-fi fan. Fantasy wasn't my thing. I couldn't grasp beings like Oberon, as it appears Exolexy wasn't able to. My science-fiction conditioned mind kept trying to compare him to Star Trek's "Q", like two puzzle pieces that wouldn't go together. 'If he's onmipotent, why isn't he noncorporeal?' I said. 'Omnipotence demands you be noncorporeal!'

After a while, though, I began to thaw. Then I began to re-watch. And with each re-viewing I came to appreciate the rich mythological and fantasy elements more. Now I couldn't imagine a Gargoyles without all of that.

In short, I owe my appreciation for the fantasy genre to Gargoyles. It was responsible for 'bridging' me over.

Aris Katsaris writes...

After a long delay I am now beginning again to repost much of what had been lost in the crash. Sorry for the delay.

Comment: there were a couple high-tensioned posts of Exolex, Lexy and me which I won't repost - my reason for that is that Exolexy made a comment which seemed to imply to me he wouldn't mind their deletion: if however any of you wants their specific lost comments reposted, just say the word and I'll do so: I'm not exercising censorship, just caution.

Aaron writes...

The caption. Must've been my imagination then. But thank you for the confirmation.

Of course, I goofed up anyway, since the prison is actually *Ryker's* Island, not Riker's Island. Must've been thinking of something else. ;)

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

Not questions- comments:

I read your Leader of the Pack posting... as usual, I loved it. Thank you again for posting such things.

I think I remember being surprized by "Xanatos" under the helmut. At the time I was still blown away by one of my all time favorite tv lines; "Because Nietzchi is too butch and Kafka reminds me of your friends down there." {AND the close up on enough letters to recognize Sarte!} I know I was shocked to find out the truth. I thought little of Xanatos for going on a revenge binge, but modern tv has lowered my expectations. However I was stunned when Bronx went for "Xanatos' head", just shocked.

Oddly enough I thought the gargoyles flying away was a nice choice. Many other times there has been widespread ignoring of the "glide, not fly" principle. Here they circled around this unusual unexpected heat source. Under normal circumstances there might have been no way to get back in the air. Coming out to a place without sirious updrafts was a choice the gargoyles made because they had to, a ramiphication of Lex's hastiness. Showing them circling, using the fire to get back in the air, was a touoch of realism with interesting implications. Swimming would have taken away the open question whether they all could swim the distance, especially the part of Bronx howling as if he will drown. It would have been a more explicit version of the 'can't just fly' problem, but not an example of the gargoyles clearly using aor currents to glide.

MAybe I'm just rambling- it is late.

One other thought.
Now that the answers are coming in every day, and the recently answered page is actually moving, I find myself afraid I've missed something that came and scrolled off already, but reluctant to search the entire archive. Perhaps another page would be a good idea. A Relatively New Page in which newer messages, irespective of catagory, would sit for a set amount of time. Each message would automatically fall off the list in 30 days or the like. Just a thought.

Demonskrye writes...

Hi Greg,
I'm working on responding to your rambles on the individual episodes while spacing myself enough that you don't have to read a whole slew of them at once. Hopefully, I'll eventually be caught up enough that you'll remember the rambles I'm refering to.
Without further ado...

"The Thrill of the Hunt"

First off, I think the Trio tryptic was a good followup to "Awakening", since it developed the Trio much more fully beyond their comic relief teenager personalities. Though each of them stand alone well enough, they also fit together nicely with an "Innocence Betrayed" theme. Lex believes the TV version of the Pack is the real thing and gets a rude awakening upon actually meeting them. Brooklyn makes an attempt to fit in with modern humanity and is nearly killed. Broadway accepts the media vision of guns and ends up injuring Elisa. The Trio is discovering the modern world and it's not always a pretty picture.

I also appreciated the fact that Lex was right and in spite of the fact that the episode's events seemed to prove him wrong, Goliath acknowledged that Lex was right. Unfortunately, Goliath didn't seem to do much in the way of "seeking out kindred spirits" for the rest of the season. Though unless I remember wrong (which is entirely likely), Brooklyn uses the same term to describe the bikers he approaches in "Temptation". So maybe the task fell to him.

I love continuity. It's one of the reasons I was so addicted to "Gargoyles" when it was still on Disney Afternoon. And I loved seeing ramifications to the characters actions. I can't remember if I had expected Xanatos to be out of jail by this episode, but I know I appreciate that he wasn't.
And on the other end of the spectrum, we have the clashes between Elisa and Goliath over the status of the castle as the gargoyles' home. Kind of a sign of what was to come, slowly setting up the idea that the victory in "Awakening Pt 5" wasn't as final as Goliath would like it to be.
I agree, this was probably Wolf's shining moment. Much like the gargoyles, we weren't sure what he was capable of at this point. He seemed focused, a skilled hunter, and maybe even strong enough to take on Goliath. Later on, he kind of degenerated into more of a bully type; strong and not exactly stupid, but no strategist either. By the time "Vendettas" aired, he just seemed so inept that I could hardly take him seriously.
The Pack hype was fun. I didn't equate it with Power Rangers at the time, but I can see it now. It also adds to the idea of the gargoyles being from a completely different era that Lex would be completely taken in by something any human teenager could easily identify as so much special effects.
If I was going to compare this episode to "Temptations", I'd probably say that Fox is Lex's Demona. As a rule, Lex hates the Pack in general well into season two, but Fox is the one who seems to really get to him. Thinking on her feet, she dupes him into bringing Goliath to meet the Pack. And judging by his face after she stroked his chin, Lex was pretty well under her spell at that point. Having him so enthralled with the pack really sets him up for the fall later on.
Was that A "Beauty and the Beast" nod when the Pack are seeking out Goliath and Lex on a rooful of stone gargoyles? Or just coincidence? That particular film is one of my other great loves and I enjoyed the ocassional reference to it in "Gargoyles", Elisa's Halloween costume being the most obvious.

That should be all for me. Thanks for listening and thanks as always for helping to make such a fine show.