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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending June 29, 2009

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as i'm too lazy to wait until midnight any blocks that were in place are now gone.

try to play nice and have fun.


I'm going to avoid further whining about not being able to go (I did that at Karine's journal), and simply ask if someone could please get me Bill's autograph. I love him as Broadway, and I really loved his work as Bulkhead in Transformers: Animated (he's my third favorite, just after Prowl and Ratchet). That'd be a nice thing.

Well, yet another person has crawled out of the shadows...

If I've been scarce, lately, it's because I've been busy moving. Seems I've missed quite the party.

As someone who came into this fandom after it was well-established (I think I started posting in the TGS forum around Summer 2004), I've never gotten the sense that anyone here TRIES to drive away new faces. My opinions may have differed from other peoples', but I've found that as long as your own opinion is well-informed, no one begrudges you the right to have it. The thing I find is that most people here are quick to regard rumor as fact, or they try to beat a dead horse, and are quick to use name-calling or cry out that they're being persecuted when they're asked to try to steer things in another direction.

Bottom line, you reap what you sow. You post civilly, you'll get civil responses. If you whine, well, of course you'll get a different response. I can't think of too many people who have patience for whiners.

So, moving on to other things...

This is going to be uncharacteristic of me (since my brother is the optimist of the family), but I too think we should focus on the real meat of the initial post: Marina Sirtis is coming. When I told my girlfriend, she practically jumped out of her frakkin' skin! Apparently, Deanna Troi is her favorite TNG character.

Karine: I'd raise both hands, if one of them wasn't holding a beer. And Kythera's design looks amazing. If someone does go through it, I might buy a shirt for a friend, too.

Mochi: Actually, that was the first thing I said to myself when I saw the latest Gathering newsletter: "If I don't have to save for a Gathering next year, may as well save for Comic-Con." I'm already designing a Rorschach costume for this Halloween.

Harvester of Eyes - [Minstrel75 at gmail dot com]
"'In the end?' Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends..." -Dr. Manhattan ("Watchmen")

Rebel and Landon> I figured as much, but it helps to have a second or in this case a third opinion.

Anyway, I'd have to say that since the first Clan Building was digest size that honestly it's for the best that the upcoming ones are the same size for consistency.


Gathering web site has been updated!

We have details posted for a bunch of recently added guests including "Gargoyles" voice actors Brigitte Bako (Angela), Bill Fagerbakke (Broadway), and Marina Sirtis (Demona) and "Spectacular Spider-Man" voice actors Vanessa Marshall (Mary Jane Watson), Daran Norris (J. Jonah Jameson), Deborah Strang (Aunt May), and James Arnold Taylor (Harry Osborn and Frederick Foswell).

We also have a new flyer available in PDF format. Landon, it looks like you scooped me on that. ;) Yes, please, everyone, if you're going to another con anytime between now at the Gathering, download it, make as many copies as you want, and distribute it around. Thanks!

54 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

P.S. The new flyer looks great, Patrick! That wasn't supposed to have a question mark.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

That said, I'm not thrilled that SLG is printing the trades in digest size. I know full-color for them is expensive, but I'm glad I have all the single issues for that reason alone.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

I agree with Rebel. For at least a few months there hasn't been a single online retailer I've found that has all 8 Gargoyles single issues in stock, including SLG. Your casual friends would basically have to turn into seasoned comic hunters to track down all 8 (or the first 6) at this point. I love a local comic shop as much as anyone, but even finding the trade there would be difficult. An Amazon link is the only reasonable option, in my opinion.

P.S. The new flyer looks great, Patrick? I plan to carpet CONvergence on Wednesday.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Antiyonder > Regarding #2, I say you should inform them of Clan Building Volume 1. I have no idea whether buying back issues or buying Vol 1 would be better for SLG from a financial perspective. The reason I recommend you tell them about the trades is because most people would be much more likely to actually *follow through* and make a purchase if they only have to buy one book, and it's relatively inexpensive. At this point, most potential casual fans probably wouldn't be willing to put in the time to track down the individual issues (and ultimately have to pay more money), but I bet many of them WOULD be willing to just buy one book for a fairly inexpensive price. Selling one $13-$14 book is better than NOT selling six $3-$4 books.

A couple things I need to talk about.

1. I'm still deciding on where to place my vote, but since both sides offer a compeling arguement, it may take a while before I make my choice.

2. Now concerning the purchase of the comics, would SLG still make money from back issues of the series, or would I be better off informing potential/casual fans of Clan Building Volume 1 instead?


. . . and with that, nearly 100% of past visitors have returned to the CR this week. d:

Jonny, you're preaching to the well-converted choir.

Recording the Gathering: A really cool idea, and I would think that it would be just as successful by one person videoblogging the events they go to as opposed to making a complete documentary of the weekend. In a sense, a recorded Con-Journal that can easily compliment the ones usually written. :)

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Do you have Gargoyles DVD's of Season 1 and Season 2, Volume 1? If you don't have the DVD's of Gargoyles Season 1 and Season 2, Volume 1, please buy Gargoyles Season 1 and Season 2, Volume 1, buy Gargoyles comics of Gargoyles Clan Building Volumes 1 and 2, Gargoyles Bad Guys Trade Paper back and attend the Gathering to support Gargoyles for Gargoyles Season 2, Volume 2 on DVD, Live Action Movie and more to be released.
Jonny Modlin - [jmodlin210 at gmail dot com]

Landen> I know some of the original Marvel comics Gargoyle artwork was for sale and auctioned at the 2002 convention.

I believe last year, (2008) Karine had panels up at the art show - I can't remember if they were put in the auction or not.

I know there was mention of some of the panels being put in the Gargoyle auction for this year. (Can't say which ones, as I don't know, but we have spoken about it.)

So to answer your question, yes, those types of things have been available for auction at the convention in the past. :)


Speaking of fund-raising, have any of the comic artists been willing to sell/give up some of their original production art? Here's what one increasingly popular Marvel artist has been able to charge: http://cadencecomicart.com/young/ I've purchased comic art from him and I know I, and possibly others, would like to buy a signature Gargoyles penciling. And you could charge less for the more common page-by-page layouts. If not a donation to the cause, maybe they'd be willing to do a profit-sharing deal with a high auction reserve. I haven't been to the past Gathering art shows/auctions, so maybe this is painfully obvious. But if the convention is ending, you'd think Hedgecock and others would want to unload most of their work.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Matt > About 75% of the expense is for the hotel in meeting space rental, food and beverage, and lodging rooms for guests. The other 25% is a variety of little expenses that separately seem not so bad but together add up quite fast. For a con where guests have to be flown in, travel expenses are going to be a distant second to the hotel costs.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Out of curiosity...

To the Gathering Staff:

What seems to be the biggest expense when running the convention? Booking the convention space/hotel? Paying for the guests rooms and such? Badges, handouts, etc.? Where does the largest chunk of change go? Or is it just lots of little expenses that add up?

Just wondering.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Landon - Well, 2008 is still in seriously in debt (yes, we're still paying bills for it) and 2009 is destined to end seriously in the red as well. If we were "pretty well set" then we wouldn't be ending this thing. (and I'm not sure where you get that we are pretty well set when we've made very clear that we are tired of paying out of our OWN pockets for this each year)

... I never wanted a donate button. I don't like asking for hand outs. The fandom shoved it at us and we added it. So far, we can count donations on one finger. I'm not going to waste the time of a VERY thinly spread convention staff to report back every dime. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth even to have the button on my site. So we're even.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson

I don't mean to be rude, but where does the donation money go? I mean on the surface it seems like 2009 is pretty well set and 2010 has been canceled. I know people asked for a donation button, but I personally need a financial goal or an account of the debt accrued. Otherwise, it just seems like one fan paying another, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

DPH - "The big concern is if the staff can afford to rent the camcorders required."

DPH, you'd have to volunteer your own money and time for this endeavor.

BTW, as it has been mentioned, the DONATE button has been added to the front page of the convention website. Those of you who demanded it, you got it. Anyone used it yet? :: smirk ::

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson - [<--- DONATE button added! Put your money where your mouth is! ;)]

Ed - Sure thing! Creating a record is why I started a Twitter feed: http://twitter.com/GargoylesNews For news, 140 characters is really enough. I don't know if Gorebash wants to clutter the blog with tons of snippets like that. I think the blog is better suited for its current layout with significant links like Nostalgia Critic and the trailers, and in-depth analysis like what Siryn wrote. Another option would be a link run-down every few days, like this: http://blog.newsarama.com/2009/06/27/linkaramanewsarama-87/ You can also embed a Twitter feed directly into a website, but I think that would require some coordination.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Landon: Wow, that's a great interview! Thanks for posting it! (This is where the S8 blog really would come into its own I think, giving a record of this stuff.)

Gathering DVD: I really don't think this needs to be some epic project to be effective. I mean, if there's an Attenborough in the room, great, but frankly, I was thinking of something VERY, VERY basic. I'm guessing out of a few dozen attendees someone must have, or have access to, a digital video camera. Sit at the front, or close to the action, and roll tape.

If there's no chance at video, what about audio? You can get, with some luck on the acoustics, decent audio simply plonking a Macbook Pro on the table and hitting the red button on Garageband. I guess a lot of other modern computers have similar capabilities.

Tell you what. Maybe this is going to be simpler. If everyone can make a point to RECORD EVERYTHING they can (except the Gathering-exclusive stuff, natch). Video cams, cameras, phones, audio recorders, blogs, journals, sketch journals... anything! I'll try and figure out what to do with it all after if you guys attending can try and get as much raw material as possible. Who's game?


Glad to see the storm has died down a bit.

Siryn> My friend Ryan actually made one an "I believe" Gargoyles t-shirt for me last year based off the one seen in Bad Guys. I have a picture of me in it at the Gathering last year with Karine. Pretty cool.

I know a lot of it was lost in the mess, but I do feel strongly that our energy now should be focused on the 2009 Gathering and esspecially on the two trades coming out. Disney is only hearing cash register sounds. They liked the Gathering and thought it was all well and good, but it didn't bring them much money. If the comics are wildly successful, Disney will cash in again on Gargoyles. So, buy the trades if you can, buy multiple copies if you can. Donate extra copies to friends or libraries or book sales. If you can't afford the trades, then spread the word. Big time.

We really can make this happen. I sincerely believe that with an effort on our part, in five years the Gathering could be going strong again, new comics could be coming out and all episodes could be on DVD. Maybe even Direct-to-DVD movies, live action movies or a new TV show are possible.

We just need to put our money where our mouths are. And as much commotion as this Room saw this week, I feel confident we can achieve great things for Gargoyles.

Please. Stop fighting each other and start fighting for Gargoyles.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]

Wow Great update Patrick you just cheered me after I had a bad day at work, glad Brigitte Bako is going to be there. I can't wait to go.
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Hey, I have a t-shirt idea to throw out there.

What about making an actual version of the "I Believe" T-shirt Benny is wearing in the SLG comics?


Brigitte Bako, voice of Angela, has just been confirmed as a guest!

More Gathering updates coming soon.

55 days left until the 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA!

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

DOI! I forgot to add the link. :/


Please be gentle with me, it was a 5 minute project.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

This would make a cool flyer/web banner and an even cooler shirt.

Phoenix Gate on the front, lettering on the back.

A shame I didnt think of it sooner.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

Hey Karine! No, I totally don't mind that you linked to my Phoenix Gate. ^_^

Heck, if there IS interest, I'm happy to volunteer my version for shirts, too, if people would like.

Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus

All right, that's three people with a vote for a Phoenix Gate shirt. I'm thinking that we could actually do pre-orders at this point...

I'll work on a Phoenix Gate design next week and we'll go from there.

There are a few Bad Guys shirts out there, one with Yama and one with Fang (plain white T).
Fang: http://kanthara.deviantart.com/art/Fang-Zorch-90103674
Yama: http://kanthara.deviantart.com/art/Yama-Slash-90103396

The Hunter can also be made into a T: http://kanthara.deviantart.com/art/blam-93406276

Several of the full colour Gargoyles images in my gallery are also available as shirts. Just ask, we'll see what's already in stock, and what can be printed.

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois
I kick ass and take names.

Venus/Rika > I'm revising our flyers right now to reflect the latest guest news. The PDF will be available on the web site by the end of the weekend.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Karine: I'm not particularly picky about what the Phoenix Gate should look like as I'm sure it'll look awesome :)

And frankly, it'd be freakin' awesome to have a shirt that's essentially merchandise for the comic book (due the subject matter of Clan Building II and well, YOU d:)

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Anyone think it might be possible for us to start some kind of grassroots viral marketing thing for Gargoyles? Whether it be for a shirt, the trades, the DVDs, whatever?



Sorry for the double.

Though I'd probably buy this anyway, regardless of the cut, I agree with Rika--I'd love to be able to buy this in a V-neck that's fitted.

Of course, if printing this on shirts like that would dramatically raise the price of them, it might not be worth it, since some people would decide not to buy it. I don't know whether it's better to sell a ton of cheap shirts or a smaller amount of more expensive shirts.

It's worth noting that if the shirt is of a good quality with a great design, lots of people who aren't even Gargoyles fans might want to buy it, just because it's an awesome shirt.


Karine > Could the T-shirt art be a combination of a superman-logo-ish style and the anthology cover? For example, I really like the fact that Kytheraoa's phoenix gate has that little flame in the upper left corner of it, plus I love how shiny the metal is. But, as much as I love Demona and Goliath, for the purposes of making a Phoenix Gate T-shirt I'd like it better if they weren't reflected in the Gate's surface. I'd prefer it to be just the Phoenix Gate itself without Goliath and Demona.

My 2 cents.


I really like the idea of the gate all superman logo-like. I would definitely buy that, as long as it's on a fitted woman's cut t-shirt (preferably V-neck cause we all know those are awesome...but that's not that important).

What about art of gathering mascots past? Or, as long as the creators are okay with it, the MGC/AMGC mascots? I would kill for a nice shirt with Eva and Fiore on it!

Even a lot of the fan-characters/avatars have really gotten to the level where they're well-liked and kind of famous in the fandom...I know I'd gladly go for a sweet Kanthara shirt too.

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
I have that Taylor Swift song "Love story" in my head and I cannot get it out....please shoot me.

The Phoenix Gate Anthology art by Kyt can be seen here on her Deviant Art page. Of course I'm now volunteering her art without asking, but I'm sure she won't mind.


Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.

Dtaina: Ah, thanks for clearing that up. Darn technology!

@ Venus/Rika: Apparently, a lot of journalists who followed the trials mentioned that it was dropped, but also said that there was some really really dirty/nasty evidence against him that turned up again and again and again. The question IF he actually did any nasty things is not important though - even if he would have been convicted, he wouldn't have gone to jail, but would have spent time in an insane asylum for sure.

I mean, when it comes to behaviour - the guy was miles away from earth, he really lived on another planet altogether. He regressed into his own picture of a perfect childhood, a safety haven. Things like this happen all the time in rock/pop history, but with him, it was just very extreme and psychological.

Hi tried to recreate the perfect world, and lost most parts of his sanity and money. And that is what makes him such a tragic figure after all.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Karine > Is there anywhere we can see the anthology cover you're referring to? Could you provide a link to it?

Personally, the image I have in my mind has the Phoenix gate looking sorta Superman-logo-ish. However, if you have something else in mind and can provide a link to it, my mind could be changed.

Anyway, I don't know if I'll be at the Gathering, but if there's a way I can order a Phoenix Gate shirt, I'd buy one. Particularly if the shirt is a dark color.


Phoenix gate t-shirt, hmmm?

All right, people. Jen says if I draw it, she'll print it. If you are going to the Gathering, there will be Phoenix Gate t-shirts up for grabs. Now are you thinking Superman-logo-ish, or like the cover of the Phoenix Gate Anthology from 2004 (which Kyt has gorgeously drawn)? Something else?

Any other suggestions or requests?

If these are done, show of hands. Who would buy them?

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]
I kick ass and take names.

Venus> You can find/download the current convention flyer here:


My apologies...that last post was riddled with typos. Please gloss over them ^^;
Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
I have that Taylor Swift song "Love story" in my head and I cannot get it out....please shoot me.

Trying to be good and keep up for once ^^

But first, off topic!

Re: MJ - Oh man, I nearly broke down in tears when I heard it. The worst part is that our media treated him so very badly that he poor guy had to FLEE THE COUNTRY. Geez. He was finally getting back into getting a show together and this happens. ; . ;

And, I don't know that this is the place to drag up a big debate (we've had enough of that that's actually Gargoyles related! XD), but I do not believe for one second he was guilty of what they accused him of. Molestors do not typically behave the way he did, nor do they act like children themselves.

I honestly believe that MJ was alway a child, having never really been given a chance to have a normal life and grow up as most people do...he was very likely just innocent to the core. It was clear from many many interviews that he really didn't get why people thought that behavior was so weird.

For the record? I have slept in bed with children that were not mine, during naps and such, as part of being their caretaker for the day, and no one ever said anything about it. I found it totally hypocritical and downright sexist that just because a man did the same, he was suddenly a sexual predator.


I'm going to Otakon and probably Librari con (a little con in Fayetteville, NC) soon...so I'd like to spread around some flyers.

Does anyone have any high quality flyers on file for this gathering or any other promotions needed? I'm thinking I'll use you guys' tax money to print a ton up at work. ;)
It's like you're all helping too! NO really!

And also, shirts...I would hope that something can be worked out with Greg's help with Disney or maybe even SLG about the merchandising...but I still say that you would be surpised how many people would buy original characters/designs as long as the it's solid, good, adorable, or hilarious art.
I mean, look at woot shirt!

Also, on the subject of SLG....I heard the grapevine that they were going under. Is this not true afterall?

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
I have that Taylor Swift song "Love story" in my head and I cannot get it out....please shoot me.

The Gathering has gotten two new mentions since the latest news:


I'm trying to rack my brain for any more Star Trek/convention/geek blogs that might post about it.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Jade> Nope! I definately don't have an old recording of the Gathering in my bag of tricks. Sorry! ^_^;;

DPH> Patrick mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. We really don't have the money for that sort of thing. Don't take this as a 'NO! That's a LAME idea!' It's actually a great idea. It's just that the staff doesn't have the money nor man power to do this/make this sort of setup.

Now, if some fans want to get together and plan to do this, NO ONE (including staff) WOULD STOP THEM, and I know baring certain events (Ie Radio play) most of the con CAN be taped, and I think most people(including staff) would be completely supportive of the idea. <:)

Unfortunately, the staff at this time _cannot afford it_ , nor can they provide the manpower - especially at an LA con where you have multiple panels going on at once, multiple guests arriving at different times, and multiple things to handle (art room, registration, set up, morning meetings and discussions with the hotel staff to ensure everything is running smoothly). I mean, you mentioned 4-5 cameras, that's 4-5 people, and that's a good half of the current staff right there. <:)

Again, NOT a BAD idea! Just not something the 'staff' can do. <:) But if FANS want to jump in, get together, organize and plan. Go for it! XD


Purplegoldfish: A line of code was added to all the lurkingfish.com index pages that tried to downlad a virus from a remote server. Mine was attacked, too, but I was able to purge it. Since Lurkingfish didn't notice the virus on her page, Google added the domain to their "alert list" and everything got blocked, including my site and Lynati's.

So, we had to delete everything just to make sure the sites were virus-free. Hopefully, Google will take us off their alert list in the coming weeks. We're still working on a solution that would prevent this from happening again.

My site and the Gargoyles Screencap Heaven are still being re-uploaded. Mine has thousands of images so it'll take a while. Lynati's site should be up soon.

D. Taina
RIP, Michael Jackson.

"The big concern is if the staff can afford to rent the camcorders required. I'd love to see this done."

I'm honestly amazed after all that's been said this week that this is a question that even has to be asked. No, we can not afford to rent a half dozen high-end camcorders for four days.

56 days left until The 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

I started to type this message up before, but my browser crashed.

*Feasibility of recording the gathering related*
The big issue I see with recording the gathering is getting enough cameras/stands (4 to 5) and educating the panelists on basic setup/usage of the camera. I'm assuming there needs to be 1 to 2 more camcorders than there are panels going on a time. Educating on basic setup is nothing more than showing how to plug the camera up to power, mounting it on the stand correctly, aiming it, hitting the record button to start, (letting it run without assistance) and stopping it. The key point is finding a good spot to set the camera to capture most of the action - believe me the mikes on modern camcorders are good enough to pick up everything in a room where a panel is held. What I'm assuming is you rent camcorders with harddrives so that you can transfer the data via a pc or laptop to an external harddrive as things progress. Gorebash/a computer geek should be able to handle that. Once all the data is transferred/the gathering is over, let somebody take the external harddrive home to do video editing to put the whole thing together. The big concern is if the staff can afford to rent the camcorders required. I'd love to see this done.
**End Feasibility of recording the gathering**

The other big thing I'd like to see done is bring in some experts (aka college professors) from nearby colleges to work through some of the biology and physics questions.

Whatever happened to simplicity?

Is anyone else getting warnings when trying to go on Dtaina's imagery resource site? Apparently it contains malicous spyware.

Jurgan: I don't know how I screwed that up.

In re Michael Jackson: What really freaks me out is that I totally called it. When I saw that Farrah Fawcett had died, my first thought was "you know what'd be really crazy is if Michael Jackson died today too". I had bought Thriller and Bad on iTunes out of an impulse which would explain why he was on my mind, but I didn't expect my out-of-nowhere prediction to come true.

Dasrik - [vm_postitnotes at yahoo dot com]
RIP Michael Jackson

Greg gives IGN some interesting insights on the first two episdoes of season 2: http://tv.ign.com/articles/998/998176p1.html
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Ohh... I would so buy a tape of the Gathering. I always wanted the extended version of the footage from G2004. Heck, I heard rumor that someone has tape from earlier cons. Was it Batya? Siryn? Someone out there has it. Print a copy. I'll buy it! If it is on dvd, that is. I would TOTALLY buy that!!

Hurray! Donation button!

OMG!! Michael Jackson is dead??!???111 Farah Faucett died today also. I don't think I spelled her name right but I know who she is. Sad day...

Shara> What's yer idea/plan?

Matt> I'll email ya!

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

It doesn't matter if you're black or white, you still liked him for his music.

In my eyes, I NEVER saw a SHRED of evidence that he molested children, but I DID SEE VERY compelling hersay and freaky things that led me tobelive that there was more than meets the eye to the King of Pop.

Had he been found guilty, My opinion would have changed, of course, but I still would have liked , nay, LOVED his music.

I still do.

He was an entertainer than captured the imagination of a generation. He was a pop culture icon that won't soon be forgotten.

His "moonwalk" will live on, and so will his music.

I listen to his songs almost everyday, (Billie Jean is my fav) and don't even think of his behavior or weird appearance while listening.

I see these things he has done on TV and I know it's bizaar, but does that change the sounds out of his mouth? No.

I would have paid any price to see him perfor live, and now sadly I never will be able to. My heart goes out to his parents and children, as well as his brothers and all his friends who new and loved him.

RIP Michael

battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

Oh! I'd forgotten.

Thank you for the donation button, Patrick. I can't do much, but I know every little bit helps.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Thank you Ed.:)
If you click my link you can check out the pieces we already have up for auction. We add new art and artists every 3 to 4 days so please keep checking. Or if you know of anyone who likes gargoyles fan art please pass the link along!
Every little bit helps.

As for filming the con. I think the idea is great. If anyone is interrested in taking on this opus please do not hesitate to contact us. I really think it would be a wonderful memory for the fandom as well as a nice way to support the con.:)

Cindy "Eden" Kinnard - [<---Ebay Auction for Gathering!]

Patrick & Karine: Sorry, I guess my post came off cavalier but as I said, this is NOT an attempt to 'volunteer' anyone on staff for more work. Yeah, I'm kinda directing it THROUGH the staff -- you guys have the say-so over what can and can't happen in your con, whether you okay someone coming in taping your events. And you know who's coming. But ultimately I'm directing it at the room and the fandom en masse with a view to getting constructive ideas going in place of... well... the last few days. Of course most ideas don't have legs. You need more than just the idea.

Cindy: The ebay auction is a really cool idea! :)

rainingcrow: Awesome poster!

Gore: Blog looks good, although the colour scheme makes everything seem to blend in. On Ask Greg, there are separate coloured boxes, and on the board everyone posts in a different colour. Something like this would probably help a lot.

Board/CR: Don't think the shift to a traditional forum would help. I've been on these kinds of boards. Arguments spread just as easily, and on a small board like this it would just fracture the board's focus. Topics are just as easy to ignore, if not easier. And there's less of a community feeling. I think the Comment Room arrangement is great, unique to here, has a lot of charisma and works fine. It's the people who make or break the room, not the set-up. To use Algernon's 'drunken brawl' analogy, changing the forums would be like moving the brawl to a new pub.

Phoenician: It sounds a bit like tags, like on gmail or blogs. Interesting idea for filtering out spoilers but otherwise is there really enough regular discussion for it to work?

Incidentally... wasn't there talk about doing fan commentaries for the episodes? Did anything happen with that?


Poll> I voted yes, cautiously. I do like the atmosphere here for the most part, but a forum would allow us to have an entire thread devoted to, say, gargoyle biology or voice acting and not have to worry about whether a current event or movie or some other topic is going to derail the discussion.

I do think we won't need too many actual sections... Gargoyles and SS-M are definitely the biggest umbrella topics, so they may need their own sections. Greg's other works, current events, etc, may not have the traffic necessary for their own at the moment and could probably be lumped together, at least for the time being.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

...and I just a news conference being held with Al Sharpton...

Okay...now I believe it...

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Great...

CNN has confirmed it. :(
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


I think it's official.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if he was still alive though? One of those "The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated" situations.


VickyUK > It hasn't been officially confirmed that he died... I'm waiting until someone says something before I believe it...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>T.T)> Great...

Those who know me probably know I've been a big defender of this comment room's open unstructured style as opposed to a traditional forum. An analogy I've often used is quite local pub where friends can gather over their drinks and goe where ever the conversation leads them but after reading through all the comment for this week it seems more like a drunken brawl.

That's why I'm going to have to cede to the majority and cast my vote in favour of a proper forum. Pity, i've got some good memories of outta this place and some great friends.

I only started posting here little under two years ago. At them time there where hardly any other newbies in the room. It was very much a domain of the old guard, yet I experianced none of the alleged cliqueiness that others have claimed. I extended the hand of friendship to the Old Guard and they warmly embraced it. For that I thank them from the bottom of my heart. I hope to see you guys in whatever new format this place takes.

Algernon - [padraig dot j dot griffin at hotmail dot com]

Personally, I would LOVE a Vinnie T-shirt... <XD Although Rebel, a phoenix gate t-shirt sounds cool too.

PS. GORE... no Vinnie picture in here yet?! XD


Oh my God Can't believe Michael Jackson has died and I was planning to go see him in concert too but tickets sold out
VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

I somebody doesn't know it yet...

Michael Jackson is dead.

LA Times just posted that LAPD confirmed his death.

Hope he finally found the peace he desperately looked for in life...

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Does Disney have a copyright on EVERYTHING from Gargoyles? Personally, I'd love to have a nice, dark grey, fitted shirt in a great cut with a huge image of the Phoenix Gate on the chest.

Of course, yeah, there's the poopy copyright issue on a grand scale when it comes to shirt and such <_<

Damn Disney and all *shakes a fist* I was so enjoying the comics too =(


After Gore changed reset the poll, and those of us who voted before needed to re-vote, I accidentally voted "no". So, even those "yes" is already winning, it would be winning by an even larger margin if I hadn't voted "no". My bad.

I don't know the behind-the-scenes programming skills Gore would need to incorporate, but perhaps the CR could be filtered in a way, where comments could be identified as "Gargoyles" "The Spectacular Spider-Man" or "General Discussion" etc, and a quick click could give any visitor an unfiltered or focused board.

**Reads what just wrote** Yeah, that just seems MORE confusing than even the current CR situation . . . maybe multiple topic CRs would be a better "in-between" solution?

Eh, I don't know. I'm just throwing out randomn ideas/thoughts . . . and thoughts I don't even necessarily endorse d:

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

I voted yes, but reluctantly. I'll be sad when/if this comment room goes away. It's one of my favorite online discussion forums from an aesthetic standpoint. It just looks like it all fits together. I'm not normally one to dislike creativity, but the extensive, yet limited color and avatar palette lets people define themselves without having bizarre, poorly-designed, out-of-place avatars cluttering up the place. And the colored text is brilliant for following conversation threads so you can tell who's posting by a glance. And the weekly flushing of old content is great so you know everything is brand new. It's a nice alternative to all the phpBB blandness filling the web.

I guess my point is that I hope a lot of thought goes into the design. Not that I doubt Gorebash will do a great job.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

I'm more of a lurker on here, but I voted "Yes" on the poll. I think with the more organized set-up of a traditional forum, I'd probably become an active user.
UmbrellaFish - [maultbay at live dot com]

Look, I did wrong.

I should not have defied the ban. Whether I agreed with it or not is immaterial. I should not have done that.

Maybe I just wanted to help guide the room back to a more pleasant environment after the ugliness... but I did so in a FUBAR way.

As for before, maybe I got a little overzealous defending people I care about... that video I posted way crossed the line.

Gore, I'm sorry. I didn't think of how it would make you look.

I'm out until you see fit to unblock me, and not before.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Rika > I think if we kept the comment room AND had a forum, we'd end up shooting ourselves in the foot. Some people would use the forum, and some would use the comment room, and we'd probably end up not having enough posts to make either of them look busy. Whether we have a comment room or a forum, I think we need to throw ourselves 100% behind whatever we end up choosing. Besides, we already have this chat room thingy that could give people a place to give quick comments.


Is it possible to have both?

Like...keep this for the random quick commentary, but a more organized forum for actual subjects?

Maybe I'm just being too nostalgic. I may not remember to check here a lot, but it's still something I've always liked. ^^

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

Hey, Gorebash added a poll! Nice!

I voted "yes." I think a forum is just what we need. We could have two sections: one for Gargoyles and one for Spectacular Spider-man, and then we could make threads in each one. I think it'd be great.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

So let's see what people think. As you can see the link at the top of the page will bring you to a micro polling web site where you can vote for your option.

If you've done so already, you probably need to do it again. I changed an option on the poll and I guess the reset the whole thing when you do that.


Sorry for the double.

I just voted "yes" on the poll, but keep in mind that my "yes" only applies if the forum is relatively small, like one or two sections. If it's a choice between having a huge forum with too many sections or keeping the comment room, then I vote keep the comment room. But if it can be a small forum with few sections, I vote forum.


I don't know if I'd really want a full blown forum with lots of different sections. Besides the last few days, this place doesn't get much traffic, so I think having lots of different sections for different categories of topics would be superfluous. I understand the *purpose* of having different sections, I just don't think the amount of posts that a hypothetical s8 Gargoyles forum would get would merit having multiple different sections.

So, my personal recommendation (if Gore decides to implement a forum) is just to have a single section, a place from which you can see ALL the threads/topics that are going on. I think that we don't get enough traffic to justify a big forum with lots of different sections, but I think we DO get enough traffic to justify a small forum with a single section...maybe TWO sections at the most, a section for all things Gargoyles-related, and an off-topic section, for anything that's not specifically related to Gargoyles. But we certainly don't need more than that, in my opinion. If we have too many, it would end up making each section look like it didn't get much use. To use a visual image, 50 people look like a puny group if they are in a room with a capacity of 300, but 50 people look impressive if they are in a room with a capacity of 50 or 60. And if the forum ever gets overcrowded, we could always add more sections.


Sorry for the double.

My appologies to Bishansky. I just realized I have been spelling your name wrong the entire time. I was typying Bishkany. Sorry about that.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

Bishkany> "Well, with all due respect, this is Gore's site, so he can do and not do as he pleases. Up to him."

Funny you should post something about respecting Gore's decisions since you undermined him decision for a temporary ban on you by changing your IP.

Keep in mind that while, yes I do think you can be a bit of a jerk at times, I have nothing against you. I just dont like that people talking about bad treatment get banned. Then an "insider" gets banned. Then that insider sneaks back in with no reprocussions.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

"Kudos to Mr. Rolfe."

Gah! No! Nostalgia Critic is Doug Walker- James Rolfe is the Angry Video Game Nerd, his arch-rival-turned-collaborator.

Sorry, just had to say it. I'll have more constructive things to say later.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Well, with all due respect, this is Gore's site, so he can do and not do as he pleases. Up to him.

But, to show support, yes, the idea has my vote. I hope Gore considers it, at least.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

I think this situation has brought to light a problem with the current design of the comment room that has been building up for years. It's too saturated; everyone comes in to talk about anything. For example, we had the Gathering announcement and the Nostalgia Critic review on the same day and what happened? The review was mostly forgotten under this massive argument. If we'd had a modern forum with moderators, rules, and separate topics, this wouldn't have happened.

So, I vote for Gorebash to install the new forum. Sure, it's easier to redirect people to another forum, but I don't think that's going to solve the problem. Fact is, people come here to chat about Gargoyles. This is where Ask Greg is. We can't just leave. Besides, I think a modern forum will do wonders for this fandom and Spectacular Spider-Man's.

D. Taina
"The story is told -- though who can say if it be true..." -Shari

It also strikes me that if the Gathering is in its last year, perhaps the web site could live on as an online gathering place. I ditch the comment room and direct people there.

Gargoyles forums already exist here:

and here:

There's very little point in reinventing the wheel. Furthermore, I've already tried to setup a Gargoyles forum right here on s8. The overwhelming majority opinion was that such a thing was not wanted. So I killed it.


Patrick> Thanks for the donation button. I hope I won't be the only one using it. :)

Rather frustratingly, though, I'm currently in the proces of changing my credit card number under PayPal, so until they verified it (which should take a few days), I can't actually use it to donate anything today. Don't remove the button! ;)


Gorebash> Or, as I've suggested before, and others suggested.

A standard forum with separate topics; user names you must register; and moderators you appoint to enforce a written list of rules.

That's how most forums are run, and I think that would be the most practical solution.

You could have a section for Gargoyles discussion, and a section for General Discussion/Off topic.

Hey, it could even have an Ignore option so people can Ignore the people they don't like. ;)

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Rebel: perhaps there's a miscommunication on my part. there are no bans. what i've done is applied a temporary block to a few people that keeps them from being able to post to the comment room. this was done because the tone of the comment room had become too hostile, civil discourse was breaking down, and it would have done no good for anyone to let it continue.

In effect, it's a time-out.

And that's the approach I will continue to take as needed until I either remove the comment room entirely or implement a moderated comment room where every comment goes into a queue and must be approved before it is shown.


Gorebash - While you are in a banning mood, would you consider banning spideyforever and Daniel Abraham Raviv? I know they haven't posted in a while, but I found them to be much more disruptive than Todd Blankenship at his worst.

Anthony Tini - Good idea. I just did.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

@ Landon Thomas - I know you contacted SLG concerning Amazon and getting up a picture of Clan Building Vol 2. Have you done the same concerning Bad Guys Vol 1?
Anthony Tini

*gives thumbs up to Purple and Lynati*
I agree with you two, people should have the right to post negative experiences, I doubt they were ment to upset people outright. I don't think any of Todd's first posts were out to get anyone. It only got out of hand because some people just got upset instead of taking a criticism politely as they should.

Also it's really poopy to judge someone's net nickname. Todd has the right to be Todd even if Todd is a she, what difference does it make? Maybe in some countries Todd happens to be a female name; and in any case genders should not matter in opinions. I might as well judge all those who put some garg name in their nickname like CrazyDemona for example should change their nicks because obviously they're not gargs and even less that specific character, geez :P


Hey I love my garg t-shirt and I love the DVDs and would love to have more shirts. I thought it was sad they only did one of Goliath and the second shirt made was kind of blah and looked badly printed. I'd love to have a shirt with let's say Thailog on it :P Or cold stone, or someone else and heck maybe not with bright orange letters ;) I'd love to help design new shirts anyway, tons of great great artists out there would probably give ideas. Heck I mod gargclub on deviantart and some people are still interested in contests and so on. (and so are few who still participate in MGC). I'm sure things could be arranged merchandise-wize--- random ideas here.


I don't often post in the Comment Room, but I heard what was going on and I want to put in my quick two-cents.

I want to suggest to the planners of the 2009 Gathering, if it isn't on the agenda already, a panel slot devoted to a discussion of how the fandom might move forward in the long-term. It may produce anger, but there is no issue so controversial it cannot at least be talked about.

I'd personally like to see come out of the Gathering a group of volunteers willing to work on the issue. Not specifically running another physical con, but ideas to keep the fandom together, and bring us together physically, even if it is just a group of fans holding an unofficial meetup at some other convention or even a restaurant.

None of that is an endorsement or condemnation of anything. I want to encourage us to move forward somehow.

A Fan - [disafan at aim dot com]
Never Missed a Gatherng

Okay! Finally got around to watching the Nostalgia Critic. Am I the only one that keeps staring at him going "I know that guy!"?

Anyway, I really enjoyed it, so thanks to whoever it was that linked it originally. Pretty much everything he pointed out were thoughts I had before (especially the perching out in the open during the day...I know that it looks COOL, guys, but really? Really? You could at least hide out until you're sure the vikings are good and loooong gone).

Sometimes I forget how ridiculously awesome this show was and how much I miss it...in fact, despite still drawing her and writing about her all the time, I keep forgetting that my main character is based of that daggom show. Duh. What with the being a gargoyle and all. o.0

Anyway...I loved it. And I love this show. Gathering saving aside, is there anyway that we can still garner interest in getting volume two of season two out? At the point, I think I'd be willing to do much of anything.

...maybe not use the boob dance from Pigeon Forge as promo like one of my friends wanted though. I still need to think that one through >_>;

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

Dasrik - I'm still a fan and I actually enjoyed it more when he mocked the show. I think Gargoyles stands well enough on its own that it can put up with some ribbing. Blaise covers the best parts well. My favorites were calling Lexington a "prissy queen", the old-timey slapstick in the kitchen, and Elisa's clumsy fall. I also think he should have mocked the Star Trek actors more.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

You know, it's really strange that the Nostalgia Critic pointed out the plot holes of the early episodes (seriously, Elisa, ever heard of *thinking*?) without arousing my anger. This show was like the Holy Grail to me when I was a fan, but now I'm like, well, it's just another show - a good show, but still a show. Kudos to Mr. Rolfe.
Dasrik - [vm_postitnotes at yahoo dot com]
Fly at higher game

Rika> There's two sides to this issue. One side is that it's an awesome idea, people love Gargoyles gear, and Jen has been selling our Gargoyles designs on shirts at the Gathering for several years as she has the press and the business. However, there's always the issue of copyright. Technically, the shirts should NOT have any of the actual Gargoyles characters on them. And who'd want to buy enough fan-character t-shirts to get us out of the hole?

Tell you what -- I'll bring it up in the staff mailing list, see what we can do about it. I'm reluctant to send our money to Café Press (base-prices are ridiculously expensive) but perhaps we can figure out something.

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois
I kick ass and take names.

Halle Berry as Elisa = BAD CHEESE.

After ruining Storm that thoroughly I never really want to see her act in anything again, yet alone movies of things I love.

So, I was thinking...has anyone thought about setting up a cafe press type dealy? Not necessarily through them...but something where artists can illustrate gathering-related things and pop them onto t-shirts and other products for sale? The proceeds could go to reviving the Gathering...

I, for one, would love to have t-shirts with such designs that are actually a good cut--not the generic unflattering t-shirts we usually have. Don't get me wrong, I love them...but they end up as night shirts or work out shirts because of the unflattering cut. ^_^

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]
Heehee...the code I had to enter totally spells "boob" XD

Heh... at least that "live action" poster is using Salli as Elisa. I've seen a few on DeviantArt pitching Halle Berry for the role.

57 days left until The 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Oi, triple. Sorry.

Was going to not say this but "Awakening soon" Thats awesome.

What made me do the triple was the even more awesome quote Warcrafter has. "Chuck Norris has never been denied everything, NOT EVEN REVENGE!" That made me laugh.

Ok, Im done.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

Sorry about the double. Qualms sounds harsh. Not qualms per se. More like, things that I think are a bit off. But like I said, the effort is great. Glad to see it. I really like the date too. Dare to dream.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

Ok, changing an IP address if fairly easy stuff. But I personally think it is messed up that Bishkany is changing his IP because Gore said he would temporarily ban him. It undermines Gores authority as moderator of the site and disrespects Gores decision.

Even though one has the ability to do something, they should respect the actions of those in charge. Bishkany should not be switching IPs he should wait it out.

The gargoyles had the option of overpowering the humans and ruling the castle, heck they could have even driven the humans out of the castle. The reason they didnt is because they respected the humans enough to not do that.

Keep in mind, this is just an example, I dont want to hear about how the humans could have come back during the day for retaliation.

OK. Im tired of the subject but I felt that needed to be addressed, enough on that.

That live action gargoyles poster. I do have some qualms about it but I will not go into that. I think the simple fact that someone was eager enough to make it is awesome. The colors are perfect to near perfect and Hudson looks fantastic.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

its a live action gargoyles poster


rainingcrow - [rainingcrow86 at yahoo dot com]

im glad to see some one else in reno likes gargoyles. jade griffen feel free to email me at mattstewtoatyahoodotcom. and for tod you must be protistant irish sense your using orange.
Matt T. - [mattstewto at yahoo dot com]

Just got back from seeing Transformers for the 4TH time (Spent the whole day at the theaters) Loved every bit of it.

As for the last gathering, well that sux. I live so close to LA and I may not be able to go. But I know Ill regret it if i dont go. Im in a huge pickal right now.

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Chuck Norris has never been denied anything. NOT EVEN REVENGE!!!

Purple (and everyone else who have complained about the blocking), Gore didn't permanently ban anyone. If you read what he wrote, he's temporarily blocked them until tempers cool down. Yeah, Nick said some completely untrue and uncalled for things, and I gotta say in most other forums and boards that I frequent, that kind of thing would get someone PERMANENTLY banned.

The rest were blocked/attempted to be blocked (You sneaky bastard Bishansky) because the comments and arguments were getting out of control. Like was mentioned, the discussion was going nowhere, all people were doing were re-hashing the same points. Hell...he COULD have just shut the whole board down for a few days- which I have seen done on occasion- to let everyone's tempers cool.

Gore has made it clear we need to move on and I've been enjoying following the posts about stuff that can be done to help promote this year's Gathering better, along with the many ideas on how the fans might be able to bring the gathering back in a couple of years when hopefully the economy will be a little better. *crosses fingers*

BTW Viral marketing was mentioned earlier and along those lines,I had been talking with Jen awhile back and we were thinking of hitting Disneyland shortly before the Gathering since we both have season passes, and wearing our Gathering 2009 promo t-shirts as a kind of advertisement. You would not BELIEVE how many comments from the staff alone we get anytime we wear the regular Garg tees there lol!

But yeah....let's just move on.

*goes back into lurk mode*

Firedancer - [xfiredancerx at gmail dot com]

Maybe some things said yesterday were out of line. But I strongly disagree with blocking people. It's ironic, the show being about tolerance and yet the mods on this message board silence those who they don't agree with. Todd Blankenship did not come off as rude to me. He wasn't spreading rumors (that was just Nick), and in all honesty blocking him or her or whatever basically proves his point.

That's all I'm going to say on this subject, lest I be blocked too.

On a lighter note, that transvestite Goliath picture on the nostalgia critic's review was hilarious.


I think this is a wonderful idea. While I'd be too busy to do it, I can provide locations near the hotel where you can rent camera equipment, if needed.

By all means, feel free. The staff will assist as we can.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

To add to Karine's post, anyone who would like to donate to Gathering, even just a tiny bit can find information on how to do so on our Web page (click my link to see! Even if that sounds dirty!;)) We have a paypal account set up with a donation button on there. We also have ebay auctions going on. Many generous fan-artists donated their work to sell for this cause so not only can you help the Gathering but you can also get some pretty nifty art work out of it! If you have any questions about the ebay auction or about donating to it please don't hesitate to email us.
Cindy "Eden" Kinnard

To the Gathering staff ATTENTION:

I am sending you a letter tonight as I have a way to save the gathering and I am willing to put my own money into it. I have a very steady job and am making plenty of money during this recession. I have none to support but myself.

I really hope you think on it and consider it. I am willing to save the gathering.

Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

The NC review was indeed a much needed laugh break. ^_^

I will throw in my 2cents(which usually doesn't hold much, but I'll say it anyway for the sake of wasting my typing time).

The last Gathering: I wish I'd known sooner. I wish I had the money to go. I wish my health was better. Fact is, it's been a rough year. Since May 2008, I've had emergency eye surgery, cancer surgery in December, Hospitalized for blood clots in my lungs this past Feb. Have elderly parents-one who's in long term care with Alzheimer's, the other is now wheelchair bound and is going into long term care soon. I'm legally blind myself. All in all, the end of the gathering is pretty small in comparison - and yet I'd still really love to be there.
Still - what the show, the fandom and the gathering have done for me. I had never traveled on my own before, never flown before, can count on one hand the number of times I had been to the US. At age 32 - a rather shy, legally blind person took the plunge and in 1998, flew to NY on his own to attend his first gathering. I was scared out of my tree - and it really took most of the convention for me to start feeling like I fit in. I made some new friends-some I still have to this day. I didn't fit in with everyone, and certainly didn't expect to. Since then, I attended 3 other gatherings. to LA, Back to NY and closer to home in Montreal(I must say I enjyed that one the most-largely because it was the most intimate(It was a smaller gathering and we were able to get up close to the guests a lot more. Over those gatherings, I got to meek Jeff Bennett, had my picture taken with Cree Summer & Bill Fagerbakke, met Keith David - who is such a down to earth person ( and he shook my hand- weeeee!) Got autographs from most of the guests. Never really got to talk to Greg like I would have liked to-was really shy around him for some reason-but hey, got to give him a Banana Splits CD.
I got to places I'd never been before, Got a chance to meet people I otherwise would have never gotten to meet-all because of an Animated TV series. So the gathering is coming to an end. It's sad, and considering the guest list this year, it's heartbreaking too 'cause, like alot of you, I'd love to be there-but life circomstances have gotten in the way.
I got to give back a little to the fandom with the Gathering '99 CD sets. Those that weren't auctioned off - I made free of charge for fans that wanted them(I made over 100 copies of that thing!)

I thank the staff for all their hard work and the good times you gave us. Maybe we can do this again one day. It's too fun a time to for Never to be Never again. Thanks to Gore-we still have this place, and we have the Trades coming out-thanks to Greg and SLG. It ain't over unless we get up and walk away. I'm not going anywhere as long as I'm breathing. I don't know why the show has affected me the way it has, but it has and I'm here for the duration.

Anyone that wants to nitpick & complain - hey, like Greg B. bluntly pointed out last night with that video-there are alot bigger things to worry about in the world. I think if you really look around your oun life-you might find you have a few of those bigger things yourself. If you don't, consider yourself lucky.


Patrick's comment is in no way a discouragement to take on the job. It's simply saying that we, as staff, will be far too busy to take care of that and we'd be happy to have someone take on the job. Just let us know who you are, what your plan is, and how you'd like to proceed and we can make that happen.

Same goes for liveblogging! If anyone wants to do it, feel free! As long as you're not disclosing things that should remain secret/exclusive (and you will be told beforehand what these are), go ahead.

Podcasts? If you have a podcast site, and are interested in setting up interviews and/or taping our patented "Mug-a-Guest" sessions (with permission of all involved), let us know your plans. We'll talk. We'll work together.

Basically, what I'm saying here is suggestions are great, but suggestions that come with a work force are even better.

Email the Gathering staff at any time with questions and suggestions. We will get back to you.

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois
I kick ass and take names.

"Not too complicated: just tape 2009, edit it together and sell it."

Sure, it's never a big deal when someone else is doing all the work.

I've got a convention to run and a very small staff this year with which to do it. If someone from outside the staff wants to come and spend most of their time behind a camera, and then spend a month after the con editing, they're more than welcome to do so. It sounds like a neat idea. But I can guarantee that everyone on con staff is going to be too busy to take on yet another project.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


Not too complicated: just tape 2009, edit it together and sell it.

The panels, the intro, the radio play. Nothing designed to be exclusive, 'cause -- who knows, someday it may be back. And obviously not all the guests may be comfortable being filmed. But whatever can be filmed.

DVDs are nice souvenirs for visitors; a chance for others to see what they're missing; and a reminder of what was.

I realise it sounds like I'm just volunteering an overworked staff to do more work. But it strikes me it wouldn't be too expensive, hopefully wouldn't be all that labour-intensive and could probably help make back a bit of money. Give discounts to people who attend if the bureaucracy in doing that's not too complex."

Heh. I personally like that idea. IMO, it's the best possible route to go if there is to be money raised for another future Gathering.

Gorebash> "I know most of you want more. We may still get more. But it won't happen if we keep up with the doom and gloom. Focus on the positive. Have fun."

Truer words were never spoken... or typed...

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Are you guys done yet? Please tell me you are. I'd rather hear thoughts about the NC review or excitement for the upcoming trades. Or maybe even plans for those attending this year's Gathering and MAYBE even CIVIL DISCUSSION about what to do.

I hate yelling and attacks.

Any way we can discuss, I dunno, biology or something? I mean, having those prominent physical features, like various horn styles, must be negligible in regards to the energy needed to make them, hence why both sexes have them. Thoughts?


wow are people still at it?
Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

It's an important conversation, but I don't think it's going anywhere. People just keep reiterating the same points and we're all too stubborn to care. ;)

Like it or not, this is one of the premiere public faces of Gargoyles and it should remain as positive as possible, even artificially so. 24 hours of negativity is enough, in my opinion. And to be fair, Gorebash tried to ban one of the "old guard" as well, but GregB changed his IP.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Lynati, people weren't discussing their negative experiences nor were they complaining. They they were conducting vicious, personal attacks. It's exactly the kind of junk that keeps people away - the very thing we're trying to prevent!

So if we're to even attempt to fix the problem anytime soon I either, as Patrick said, give people time-outs so they can cool off and perhaps be a bit more civil with their comments, or I leave things be and if we scare more people off because of the slugfest.. so be it.

What would you rather I do?


Antiyonder> OMG That thing was hilarious!!!
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

I would think if people could discuss negative experiences without prolific profanity and gratuitous personal attacks, there would be no need for the time-outs.
Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

The room has gotten to the point where people can't be discuss their experiences if they've been negative without being banned?

Isn't that the EXACT kind of behavior that you've all been denying is going on? I've got people I think of as good friends here who've just said somethings I pretty heavily disagree with, from a position of personal experience, not speculative rumor. But the room is reacting as it so often does, and rather than admit that there are problems, the people "complaining" are going to be told they're full of s**t and harassed out of the room. Nice job, guys. You've just proved their point.

Might as well ban me too for wanting to speak my piece after being told to shut up. If I can't share my honest opinions without being attacked for it, what's the point in talking here? Oh, wait, that's why I stopped posting in the first place.

Lynati - [Lynati_1 at hotmail dot com]
...And TGS isn't dead. It's just pining for the Fjords.

I've been spamming anyone who mentions Gargoyles on Twitter via http://twitter.com/GargoylesFan I've gotten maybe 2 dozen positive responses back.

I think Facebook is a major untapped resource, but I haven't used it in years. If anyone knows their way around it, it would dwarf any other social network. For example, one Gargoyles group has 1,254 fans(!): http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2262292670#/pages/Gargoyles/54831236902?ref=s I don't know if it's possible to mass-message or not, but at the very least, regular posting on its wall would help.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Umms I'm not sure if this has been tried/suggested yet.

But I would suggest that everyone who has read the comments make a post on amazon about them? If you have the graphic novel, post a review on that? :) The more reviews on it, the better.

If you have your own personal blogs or blog in other fandoms, a drop or mention about what you're reading, what's going on, and plugging the graphic novels (even the convention) is an idea too? :)

Just my thoughts on that. <:)


Because there have been multiple requests, I have added a "donation" button to the Gathering 2009's home page.

58 days left until The 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles in Los Angeles, CA.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

TODD> Good man. Every sale is a sale. You're doing your part.

As for me, there are five comic book stores within a driving distance of where I live. I've been to them, encouraged the owners to order copies, and re-stock on the first volume of Clan Building. Every little bit counts.

As Greg Weisman says. Spread the word.

Support the comics. This may be our last, best chance.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

REBEL - I have a small scheme for sales of the second "Clan-Building" trade paperback.

I belong to a mailing list called "Renditions of Camelot" which discusses Arthurian fiction. When "Clan-Building Volume Two" comes out, I plan to mention it on the list because the first half is the Stone of Destiny story that King Arthur plays a major role in, and which also includes (so far) cameos from Merlin and King Pelles. Also, Greg Weisman's already mentioned being fond of Roger Lancelyn Green's take on King Arthur, and in January of this year, the "Renditions" mailing list read Green's book and enjoyed it. I plan to, when informing the list about "Clan-Building", bring up Greg's liking for Green's work.

I don't know how many people on the mailing list would buy the book after that, but if even one more person does so who might not otherwise have known about it, then it might be counted a success.

Todd Jensen

On a much lighter note, the Nostalgia Critic's "Gargoyles" review was hilarious. I don't think I'll ever be able to look at Bronx the same way again.

Though quick question, anyone know what creepy baby was supposed to be when he imagined Goliath and Elisa's children?

Definitely a laugh the fandom needed right now.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

@ Rebel: See below. ;)

No, seriously, viral marketing. That is - log into message boards of bands/films/books/pets, and post about the trades in the arts/books/entertainment section!!

Print a few sticker!! Design them in under an hour with Photoshop, print them on sticker paper (you can buy it pretty much everywhere these days), stick them to lantern posts in your city (JUST WHERE IT IS LEGAL!!!!!!!!!).

Take the same design, print it on a few papers, skatter them as flyers WHERE IT IS LEGAL!!!!!!!!

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Anyone got any brilliant schemes to boost sales for the upcoming trades?


Yeah, because that's a good way to avoid admitting you were wrong... just ban anyone who questions you.


And Bishansky too. And that one's for a whole class B address block.

The blocks won't be permanent. But I'm not unblocking them for at least a couple days.


I'm blocking Todd's ISP as well now.

It's over. Do not continue this argument.


"Todd Blankenship" aka Direwolf> Can you do us a favor and at least post under a phony name that isn't very close to Todd Jensen's? We already have a prominent Todd in here. We don't need another one when not only isn't it your real name, but the gender is wrong.

You're a woman. Your name is definitely not Todd. You don't need to use your real name, but please use something else.

Thank you.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

I'm with Todd on this one.

@ Todd: Hear Hear. :)
I'm on that train.

@ Rebel: Good to hear. :D Nothing's better than a working air conditioner.

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Let me tell you what I see:

I see NUMEROUS people agreeing with me. The fact that I'm not alone should give some of you pause. But it hasn't. It never has, and it never will, because some of you are incapable of admitting mistakes.

Every person you've lost from this site because of your derisive, elitist attitudes counts. That's a fellow fan you've sacrificed to the supposed glory of your own wit. You lost that fan, and that fan's friends, and their friends' friends.

Here's my CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM as requested by Gorebash: I suggest some of you take a step back and think about how you've behaved towards others. I SUGGEST you all try LISTENING, instead of being purely REACTIONARY.

It doesn't matter if SOME people bent over backwards and grovelled and plugged away over a long period of time and finally at long last managed to get in your good graces. They shouldn't have HAD to do that. We're all fans. We should be more welcoming.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Well ladies and gents, the air conditioner in my apartment is broken so the property manager is buying me a free room tonight at the nicest hotel in town. And it's a good thing too, because today was one of those 100+ days down here in Louisiana. Pretty sweet, eh?

Landon > They're having a panel again? I went to the one last year and recorded Vanessa Marshall saying that famous line, "Face it tiger, you just hit the jackpot."

I need to find out what I did with that video...

Anyway, I'll make it a point to attend as soon as the programming schedule is released...

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>")> ...

Karl I sent you an IM about splitting a room. Email me and we can sort things out there.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

I hope nobody minds if I ask in the comment room for roommates at the Gathering hotel. I might go if some people will split a room with me, although getting roommates appears unlikely. This would help me out a ton, because I already pre-registered last year, and would help me decide whether it's best to stay with roommates who can split the cost, or not go at all. If you want to share with me contact me by GoogleTalk screenname esopusgargoyle AATT gmail DDOTT com or AIM screenname esopusgargoyle or Yahoo IM screenname esopusgargoy1e and we'll work it out there.

The One Known As Mochi - They'll be a Spectacular Spider-Man panel: http://tv.ign.com/articles/994/994349p1.html I'm pretty sure an earlier version of that page said the guests will be Greg Weisman, Josh Keaton, Victor Cook, Sean Galloway and Kelly Hu. But I can't find evidence of that now...

Heh, I wonder if they'll try to avoid season 2 spoilers throughout the whole thing. That would take an effort.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

It might be a good idea if we knew how much we could shoot for in terms of donations before another convention could be done. I know it would vary by location, but if we had an average amount that could reasonably be expected for downpayments and up-front costs, that would give everyone a better idea of what was needed and how soon the next Gathering could be held.

We may also want to get everyone who's willing into a discussion elsewhere to see if we can overcome the "willing, but not financially able" problem in other ways... and perhaps get a list of possible locations. I don't know what the current staff's ideas were, but if there are people in those areas willing to put in the time and effort already, that's a part of the problem taken care of as far as who will do it is concerned. (I'd love to have it in Atlanta, for example, but I don't have the contacts or the cash... just lots of time I could put in, and I know I couldn't handle it alone; it was bad enough getting together with a club in college and making a tiny "we love animated stuff" con happen there)

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

*Takes a deep breath...*

Is it over yet...? Can I come back in now...?

*Sheepishly walks back into the CR*

So...who's going to Comic-Con this year?

The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>")> ...

****Blaise appears in a ball of flame.**** I'm writing this from my current work assignment during my lunch break. It's not acting, but it will help pay the bills (among other things...).

THE GATHERING> Yeah, I was pretty bummed about the news. I already knew that I HAD to go what with it being in LA this year (where I live), but this just makes it doubly important for me now. No, I have not yet registered--I've only been working steadily since the start of the month (let me tell you, the last year was NOT a fun time to be an actor in LA), but I should be able to pay for the full package registration come the 4th of July (as well as new brakes for my truck -crosses fingers his rotors last-).
However, I (silly optimist that I am) choose to see this as "The Gathering" going through its own "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" period (and by "castle" I'm referring to the economy and such). Until that time, I second (or third?) the suggestion of having a "convention fund" set up to donate towards future conventions (whether they be called "The Gathering" or not). I would also say that there's nothing wrong with reaching out to other fans in your community and getting together every so often for something special (a picnic, a BBQ, lunch at McDonald's, etc.), or something bigger, if you like.
Bottom line, yeah I was bummed yesterday, but I'm feeling a bit better about things today, and look forward to the future.

NOSTALGIA CRITIC'S "GARGOYLES" REVIEW> I'm a big fan of this guy, so I was eager to see how he viewed "Gargoyles." Honestly, I'm not used to this guy being this positive about something...but I'm glad it's "Gargoyles."
Highlights of his video for me include:
-The photoshopped "garg-cat."
-Goliath speaking to '70s music.
-NC's rundown of animation-character cliches.
-Elisa's SECOND fall off the building.
-Xanatos's shining teeth.
-NC's mentioning of the unusual body count in a Disney cartoon.
-And, of course, "ZUUL, MOTHER******, ZUUL!"

Okay, my lunch is almost over so I've got to jet. Until next time! ****Blaise morphs into a small jet and shoots out through the window, breaking the sound barrier (and several other things) in the process.****


I'm blocking Nick's ISP for the time being.

Everyone else, go cool off. Close the browser and take a walk.

Name calling and throwing blame around helps nobody. I get a lot of people are bummed. I get a few people want to give "I told you so" speeches. But you've got to get over it.

The fact that we've had over 10 years of annual conventions, comic books, and DVDs out of what was essentially a property Disney was done with ten years ago is amazing. The kind of personal interaction we've been afforded with the people who made the show is absolutely unique to our fandom. That you can go to a con and have a personal conversation with Greg and others who made the show; that you could sit in the hotel bar and have a drink with Thom Adcox and watch Keith David sing to his kids is something you will simply _NEVER_ find anywhere else.

Regardless of what you may think about this fandom, regardless of who or how it's been operated, it has produced a mountain of success. And you cannot, absolutely cannot in any way, no matter how much you may hate or despise the fandom or people within, you simply cannot deny the success we've had so far.

I know most of you want more. We may still get more. But it won't happen if we keep up with the doom and gloom. Focus on the positive. Have fun. If you want to criticize fine, but do it CONSTRUCTIVELY. Don't say "things suck because of person X". You say "I think things would be better if we did THIS or THAT".

And if we can't calm down, I'll just shut things down here for a few days and force everyone to go cool off.


Nick- Your comeback is weeeak. Seriously. Take some time to think before typing. It helps.

In all seriousness, the fact that you put the extra bit about rumours in there makes it kind of obvious what you really meant. And really? I'm not reading into anything. Let's be frank. There are rumours. Baseless ones. Ones that you knew very well would be thought of when you said that, no matter whether you have made up your own stupid uses for terms or not.

We see through your games sir, and they are not particularly fun.

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

Rika> Awww. Someone who's getting a thrill outta trying to decipher dirt out of completely blatant. I'll bake you an order of turd cookies later. <3

So I'm a douchebag? Cool. Yet another title to add to the list.

A lot better than just being labeled ignorant, which is a lot better than I could say for a lot of people right now.

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Nick - Tehee! You're silly! I see what you did thaaar. Very cute.

And when I call you a "douchebag" it actually means that you are someone who disseminates the truth, see, by washing out the lies! It's a term me and my friends use, promise. And you are SUCH a douchebag! <3

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

Ron - >>people trying to offer advice on things that need to be looked at if Gatherings are going to get another go a year or two down the line are being blatantly dismissed.
..what? I've seen several staffers in here say basically "go for it." I think what's being dismissed is the idea that we can just keep going like things are.. because we can't. That's why The Gathering, as it is, is ending. Fans should totally band together to bring about new exciting things. And for the love of monkeys, ask past con staff. They'll totally help, believe it or not, and mistakes we made, and smacked ourselves for repeatedly, can hopefully be avoided by anyone else that gives it a shot.

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate at gmail dot com]

Firedancer> ...And you are? Exactally.

I do love the fact that I make a basic comment, yet everyone jumps a certain way to it. Either people here have dirty minds, or there's secrets afoot no one wants to explain, or people are looking to stir up more controversy for reasons I can't fathom, and either way I'm the villain. Fine. I'll play that role if it makes y'alls consciences feel all nice and clean. Still doesn't bug me one bit.


But just because I like making people eat their own words:

The comment I made about "Bodygaurd/Sheath" seems to have triggered quite a bit of ire amongst a few people.

What was my EXACT meaning? Well, it was a cleaned up version of a saying a lot of my friends and I have (which some of you may have heard before) which is: "Stuck on someone's dick." Another term would be "Stuck up their ass."

...... now, what was I saying I was in the wrong for?

Simple. Basically calling Greg egocentric. Between his take on it and a friend spelling it out differently, THAT I felt I was over the line for.

With that said, I'm sticking to the opinion of:
-Jen's a bitch.
-Bishansky, never had a problem with until now.
-With exceptions, the "Old Gaurd" will stand to make sure the glass ceiling stays in place until they decide to return or demolish the building, offering no assistance and only prevent the continuation of The Gathering and whatnot because they're burnt out and can't invest time/money in it, and want no one to take credit for their work.

It's with that last sentence that, y'know what, maybe the "Gatherings", in name, should be done, over, and dead. New name, new group, and eliminate the history so that those who feel like others are stealing their ideas and their credit can just soak in all the essence of being in control of a thing they decided to end.

There. NOw let's continue this with clarity, seeing as it was so obviously missing before.

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Whoa, man, this is nuts.

So, okay, I've been to about four Gatherings, I think it is. My first was Williamsburg and after that, I managed to go consecutively up until the next round in LA...because LA is pricey, yo.

And honestly? I sighed heavily when I found out the next one was in LA. I said I'd tryyyy to come but it would likely not happen.
Well, I have MAD AMAZING CONNECTIONS, so I found out just a tad earlier this was likely to be the last and so now I've scrapped my attendance to a much much larger busier con later in the year so I can make it.

Before I get into any of this arguing, let me make one thing clear that I think is being lost in all this snarkery:

I LOVE the Gathering. I will always love the Gathering. I love the people there, I love Greg and Thom (mostly Thom, sorry Greg ;) ), I love the events and some of the panels, and I love love LOVE the radio play. Holy crap, the radio play is sweet.

I first met up with friends I'd made through Gargoyles RP at the Gathering, and I met a ton of others through it...some who I would call some of my greatest friends, no matter how often I get to see them. I am grateful to those who have put on every single gathering, whether I worked it or not or whether there were major problems or not, and I am majorly sad to see it go, but it happens.

What is amazing is that it is only happening now. Seriously guys, THIRTEEN cons now? That's incredible! And I can't express how sad I am that when I want to see people coming together and talking about the good times, instead I'm seeing some jerk start something by complaining about something he never even attends!
Chip on his shoulder, much?

And guys...it is about money. To do a con, you need a place to hold it. Well, in case no one has thought about this yet...you actually have to put a down payment on a place to even schedule a con there. So if the previous con doesn't make enough money, you're screwed. Duh.
Having known a few of the con chairs (and those who handle the money), these things are pretty crippling. They're lucky when they break even.

But one thing I have to point out in all this that I feel has not been done so well enough yet, is the ridiculous personal attacks going on here are completely uncalled for. Especially those of a more adult nature. Nick, whoever you are? Lame. Totally, unequivocally lame. I don't care if Jenn is your sworn enemy and the slayer of your dog. Leave that crap out of it. I don't care who's rumoured to be doing what with whom. It does not affect you or this con or anything else, and you are insulting everyone--inculding yourself--by sinking that low. Also, your terminology is disgusting and misogynstic.

Finally, for the creator of the series we all love so very much:

Greg has earned that ego through his hard work and showing up year after year, repeating the same stories over and over at our request--even when like only 5 people have actually never heard it before--, and putting up with a few choice psychotic fans with a pleasant smile and a quick duck behind security. I say, if the guy gets a little extra attention and homage at a convention that wouldn't exist without his brilliant idea....then what's the big freaking deal?

Oh, and on the subject of cliques. Yeah, there are cliques. There will always be cliques when such large groups get together....but if the people "in charge" aren't welcoming enough, perhaps you guys should take a look around the room at all the other people there. Or do you even notice all the others who aren't as "important" as you seem to think others are?

I, for one, know that my "clique" is incredibly welcoming. We kindapped total strangers to drag around Pigeon Forge! And if you don't believe me, go find the Russian exchange student we invited over from the Habachi place. And he wasn't even an attendee! XD

Anyway...this is probably getting long and there are probably about a million posts that will bury it as soon as it goes up, so....my point is, I love you guys, and I can't wait to rock out with everyone in LA. <3

Venus/V/Rika/Thatchickinthebikerhat - [VenusAD at gmail dot com]

First of: THANKS to everybody who has ever worked on the con stuff for doing the thing!!
That it doesn't work out in 2010 is too bad, but doesn't mean it is over. People already seem to get organized, so there goes that.

Second, my sig. Rebel has said what I could have expressed in a very good way.

Even if half of the things that ran around here were lies - it's always been a game of two. A LOT of people posted their negative thoughts on the situation, not just Nick and Todd.
And many people have posted their positive thoughts on the Gathering and their staff, not just Jen and Greg B.

But after all, whatever side you stand on, it comes down to this:

EVERY SINGLE attendant, of the Gathering or of this site feels hurt due to the actions of others and does not attend the Gathering IS a loss.

EVERY SINGLE person who doesn't visit the site because he's pissed off is a loss!!

What people are doin right now is pointing at others, even though some talk about pointing towards mirrors!

You want a place to share things on? Here you go:


The thing is *tiny*, but it is a start. If you want to talk civilised and discuss future Gatherings - try it there, I hope people pick it up and make it lift off. I've not got the time and resources to help, at least not now, but if I should ever have them, then I'll help.

If there should be any problem, whatever that may be, with other people - in staffs, in this room - then gather some other people who've stood around and work the thing out. This is not about making people pay, but this also isn't the room to go "OK, now we'll start over!" and repeat the errors that were made on both sides.

I remember times when people hurt others and left the room for a week, months, year, and came back to just start all over again with hurting and ignoring people.

And each person that is turned off of this site, the Gathering, somebodys comment - is ALLWAYS one person lost!!

With that said, I will certainly pick up the trades for CB and BG!! I will still frequent this place, discuss the show, maybe things I like and dislike. I will still hold people who work their asses off in high places for the work they've done. Even though Greg B HAS been rude to me - DAMN, THE GUY WORKED HIS ASS OF FOR THE GATHERING!! *multiple* times.

You know what I'd do if I actually had a chance to attend a Gathering? I'd probably approach Bishansky and say "Hey, why don't we sit down and have a beer and discuss the things which make us reel??" and I guess I might have a good time, and in the end we might agree on many a things as we disagree on them.

But for the people who've been hurt tremendously, it is too late. And I don't mean on the site of the staffers, but also on the side of the attendants, fans... whatevers... may that have been in person or via written text on here!!

In my life, I've worked and witnessed many people who were in charge of things. And everybody handled it different. From people who were polite and spoke in a low voice all the time to foul mouthed cyclops, which in the end left their people with their money and their hopes shattered, all clocks stolen, all hearts broken.

So on one side, maybe people should have spoken up and said "Hey, why do you treat me so bad? Why did you hurt my feelings? Can we please discuss this thing so that we get along better and help contribute something working?" - and on the other side, maybe people should have said "Hey, I realise I was an asshole and hurt your feelings, it won't happen again!"

EVERYBODY: just look at the comments on this site, and take a moment to think about it - and not in a way of "Yeah, i did it all right, it were the others!!" - but maybe realising that there have been things done wrong, and thinking about how THESE THINGS can be improved, and be made into something new, something positive!!

All in all... I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

And now I will sit back and wait for the Garg-comic books to arrive. Reviews of the comics in entirety coming up. :)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

To the people talking about "Waaah butt-hurt", you're completely ignoring what was being said. Peoples' problem with the clique wasn't that they wanted to buddy-up, it was that people getting into the fandom were turned away by the treatment of the home crews. If you were and are friends with some of them, hey, that's cool. People -can- be friends with other people, that's not the issue. The fact of the matter is, a lot of hardy talent, ideas and money sources were squashed before they could bring anything good to the table. I can respect all the hard work that the people who put the Gatherings together put in, those of you who put in that work did an amazing job. It just boggles my mind that even -now-, when the standard Gatherings are going away, people trying to offer advice on things that need to be looked at if Gatherings are going to get another go a year or two down the line are being blatantly dismissed. If this is the general way new people are treated by the older folks, how can you possibly be surprised the fandom is shrinking?
Ron Smith

Gorebash> LOL really truly? Cause if you still wants me to blog and junks..I'll be happy too. <:) (yeeeeeeeesh wordpress. I am toying with that for my new Fatal Frame website design too. I just haven't had a lot of time to sit down and tweak stuff.).

Siryn: Working on that right now, actually. Trying to get Wordpress to play nice with the template system that runs this site. Then I'll see about taking it for a trial run.

Nick: Wow...just wow. *shakes head* Dude, your supposed REAL reasons as to why the Gathering isn't being continued for next year is so far off base you'd need the Hubble telescope to find it. You continue to ignore the fact that people are coming out of the woodwork here to say that they went to one of the Gatherings, weren't part of the 'clique' and yet still managed to have a great time and would love to go to more if they had the time/money. Not only that you spewed a bunch of spiteful, baseless, trash that quite frankly is none of anyone's business anyway. Again....if you loved the show so god-damned much why would say shit like that about the man that brought this fandom together in the first place by creating the show.

On top of that, for people who do go to the Gathering and truly observe things, they will see there are all sorts of groups that hang out together. So what if your not part of one particular group? And those accusations that they look down on everyone else who isn't part of that group? Yeah....maybe you need to get to REALLY know those people better before you say that. They DO hang out with 'commoners' like myself, they do invite others to have fun with them, and they DO put themselves out there for fresh blood.

What they don't tolerate are people who stir up trouble, rumors, and discord. You have apparently found yourself on that list and from where I sit, it's seems pretty apparent as to why.

KYAN: I have to point to what Bishansky said- this whole series of arguments and soap box commentary started with a personal attack on two people, that SHOULD HAVE NOT been made to begin with. Put yourself in their places and tell me you wouldn't be outraged by something that insidious and hurtful. These people CAN take critisim....but like EVERYBODY else...unless it's CONSTURCTIVE critism, just putting someone down isn't going to be accepted readily. I have yet to see anything that I think could be construed as constructive criticism.

The current staff- who is the primary driving force behind the Gathering even happening- expected people to be mad and pissed that they could no longer continue planning a Gathering for next year. THAT kind of anger was to be expected...but Nick's personal attack of their character's when he REALLY doesn't know them because apparently all he can do is antagonize them, was uncalled for and irrelavent to any discussions.

What SHOULD have happened, is people should have been bummed, pissed, upset, whatever that the people who have been doing this for years announced that they could no longer afford to do it. THEN people could have talked about how it could be possible for other people to continue it in the future...end of story. Oh we are getting some GREAT suggestions *nods to Ed* but unfortunately it's being overwhelmed by people who are all butt hurt because they weren't part of some damned clique and now they are jumping on the bandwagon of hurling further insults. Yanno...pretty soon we are gonna have to call a WAAAAmbulence in here to pick up all the casualties off the CR floor guys.

Firedancer - [xfiredancerx at gmail dot com]

Hi everyone! I'm a chatroom goer rather than a commenter, so most of you likely don't know me, and my post will probably be very confusing and poorly worded. However, Kerry (Kth) Boyd first brings up a point that has my particular interest: donations.

If I understand all the explanations correctly, the problem with the Gathering these days is that it runs at a loss, and a dwindling number of attendants only makes it worse (and here I am not going for the first time in 8 years!). This means that the next group to organise The Gathering will have to put up their own money up front, or at least be prepared to put up their own money along the road.

If there were sort of a Gathering fund, I would definately be prepared to make a donation towards keeping it going. I know there are supporting memberships, but, as Kerry pointed out: what if I wanted to give more, or less?

The Gathering has played a ridiculously large part in my life; the first time I went was the first time in my life when I honestly felt accepted and among peers. I returned home with a foundation to build some self-esteem on. The Gathering and the fandom, like a large gravitational body, have altered the trajectory of my life towards something better. I'd like to see at least some hope of it continuing, and contribute in some way.

So, to all Gathering staffs ever: thank you profoundly for all your hard work and your personal sacrifices. Whether I like anyone involved personally or not (fortunately I tend to like most people!), it is more than I have ever done for this fandom, and it deserves recognition and respect. 13 Gatherings is an amazing streak.

To the current Gathering staff: I too would really like the oppertunity to:
1. make a donation towards the current debt (why not spread the burden just a little?).
2. make a donation towards a future gathering.

Is this anything worth considering?


>>"Hey, someone should point out the -REAL- reason for everything," and I just happened to be one of the ones who knew what he was talking about.

Apparently you just THINK you know the answers. In reality, you're making very wrong, and quite horrible assumptions based on rumors (you claim to have talked to other people about these problems.. but then don't listen to/believe the other side of the argument.) and one Gathering attended. You may have experience elsewhere, but then you should know that not all conventions are run exactly the same. A lot of your negative comments haven't been about the business side of the con, anyway. You've made personal attacks. You are not helping our fandom's situation here.
And what con reports are you reading to gather all this negativity from? There's issues and things people complain about every year (Happens with all cons. Not just The Gathering. Can't make everyone happy all the time.), but still, we look at and work on the complaints that we can, and the majority of con reports are about the fun they DID have, and pictures of fans/guests/friends/staff/etc. enjoying themselves.

As for the "hosting your own" thing, please do keep us posted. I mean that. Disagreements aside, I do care, and intend to let it be known if I can manage anything in the future as well.

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate at gmail dot com]

We need more people to promote the trades and dvds at the nostagia critic review in the comments. I already have and a few others as well but lets keep them fresh.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

... it should be noted the second paragraph was specifically speaking about the Gatherings.
"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Jen> One gargoyle con. And like 20 Anime cons (staffing over half of those). Plus a couple other random cons nestled inbetween. Just because I only went to one gathering doesn't mean I don't know jack about how a con works.

Not to mention each con has a list of who's there, and then a post-con wrapup and report by various people who've attended. And pictures too. The number of times I wished I coulda gone to a gathering but various reasons stopped me, especially after looking through everything that happened. And in that looking through reports, pictures, talking to people who went.... if you can't make it, THAT is how you find out how it was, what was wrong, what was right. Obviously, this is something that wasn't done (either enough of, properly, and/or at all by overly defensive staff members).

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

I have but one thing to add to Bishansky's statment:
I think it is a fair offer to pitch in the extremely unlikely event the con this year breaks even or dare say makes it to black that money will be available to anyone who presents a legitimate staff and plan for another convention, but chances are you better break out the American Express Titanium because its going to be from scratch. Who determines what is legitimate? Why the same people some of you are insulting because lets face history here, given the opportunity there are people who are not above ripping off a small, fan run convention meant to be for fun and there has to be a watch dog. And like those people have already said, they would LOVE to see another con down the road. Will politics play into it maybe, have some summited ideas been shot down, you bet. But that doesn't mean that there is a reason to get all butt hurt and scream conspiracy. I have met every member of the past Con Staffs since 2002, and I am not a part of any "Clique" they are good people who have real lives, some of them have children as well.
So you want to step up and get your own staff, step up to the plate.

And also, the blame game never helps, but seriously, ask yourself what you did to help. What you bought, how you spread the word, how many cons you attended. It cost nothing to have just said to your friends or co workers "You remember Gargoyles the TV show?" And go from there. No finger pointing, just ask yourself what you did to help.

Revel - [samrx5 at msn dot com]
In the immortal words of Socrates when he said, "I drank what?!"

PS. Gore I miss you! We "ever" going to do that blogging thingee dealie? XD
Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

Thank you to Gore, Robby, Ed, Shinga, etc who posted positive slants on what can be done and how this all works. It's much appreciated.

Landon - in general, there is a small amount of money left over from one con to pass on to the next as a start up boost. The past few years this amount has dwindled significantly, and last year ended up so much in the red that this year's convention had to put money towards last year. This year started in the red and next years would be even further behind. It's not fair to ask someone to take this over and have to pay thousands towards a convention that's past, then pony up the cash for next years as well.

The only potential bids were only from people on THIS years staff. The people who are well aware the bad financial position any convention would be in with this economy. ... and honestly, I think any "Cut back" would have been met with more criticism. If we made it a smaller convention then we'd get those saying "Remember when these use to be worth going to, instead of just some cliques slumber party? Remember when they had content??" (and don't think it wouldn't happen, people complain about EVERYTHING... )

I would also hope that anyone who decides to create their own convention will also NOT use the name "Gathering of the Gargoyles"... since, you know, that name seems to have such a horrible reputation in this fandom. At least from what I can see from this comment room.

Please let me know if you have any other questions Landon. And I appreciate the manner in which you pose them.

Nick - You've been to ONE con. How does that suddenly make you an expert on everything? You've already proved you don't know what you're talking about with your comments on Greg and Frank. I'm just stunned by your assumptions. You don't even know ANY of us or how this has worked for 13 years. Amazing.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I don't know who's the bigger fool. Him for leading, you for following, or me for not leaving you both!" Demona, GARGOYLES

>>Whoever said something about the "clique" being helpful. Oh i'm sure they are, IF and only IF you're the sort of person they deem worthy.

Ummm. I would like to point out at least 3 or 4 of the current staff have come into this comment room over the last two days and posted saying 'HEY! If you do need help, want to plan something, or have ideas, we'd be happy to help out!'

<:) For some reason people keep missing that! I know I'd be happy to help people out and show how the art room was run, ideas for convention setup, and of course how to create a decent convention programme. <:) I'd be happy to help advertise and plug my heart out too!

So please don't assume that the 'current' staff by anyways would completely NOT help you. Now, it's hard to want to help out if people are being so rude and offstandish from the start (as you yourself pointed out).

But honestly, anyone asks me info I'll do the best I can to tell you what I've done and experienced. :) Or at the very least direct you in the direction of people who can help. (for the record, if it wasn't already obvious, I don't mind helping out in any possible future cons or get togethers. <:))

>>If you weren't exactly how they thought you should be/act/behave etc, well.. you were out. As is the case with all cliques really.

I'm not sure what this is being based on? As I've previously said, there have only been one or two people in this fandom who have driven me to the point of 'STAY AWAY FROM MEEEEEEEE. @_@' ... and I can promise you, they know who they are. XD

>>A lot of us have never attended because we had no-one to attend with. No-one to meet.

I guess I'm really in the minority when I'm baffled about the con being seen as this huge 'meet and greet'. (Or maybe I'm just the impulsive adventurous type who just goes to cons even if I know absolutely NO one because I'm interested in the subject matter?) But I know the con has in the past TRIED to have panels and events just for 'new people' to get to know other people etc.

I am not trying to be offensive at ALL. I just... it's weird. There is the argument that this con is a social dynamic con. BUT, no one really doesn't any networking at these things? And less and less people are going, because as argued, why go to something if you know absolutely no one there? I mean, how do you know you won't like one or make any friends if you don't try? And it seems like some of the arguments seem in a similar vein to, "Here Vinnie! Let me take your hand. We're going to go to the Gathering. Hey everyone! This is Vinnie! Vinnie! Meet Everyone!. Vinnie! What do you want to do first?"

<:) I just...am really confused by some of the arguments. But I've been always someone who kinda just runs and jumps off the cliff because... well, why not try it at least once? I want to experience life, not just go through it.

Anyways... weird analogies I guess. But whatev. If people want me to help, just lemme know. I know I've been 'quiet' and kinda on the outskirts. (Trying to get into animation college (FINALLY!) and working on stuff for another fandom). But hey... this was my very first fandom, and I'm all about teamwork and helping out. <:)

So please for people who don't know me, before you make assumptions of who I am (or for that matter who the rest of the 'clique' are..) why not just talk to me and ask? :) I'm not going to straight out assume stuff of the people here who have said hurtful things. (Because honestly, I can understand a lot of people are reacting to painful news! I know I cried for a whole day when I found out!)

Ask me? Hey Si! Who's your fav character? Really?! What about the episode you first ever watched! Do you like to draw? XD Will you read my fanfiction? Etc. <:)

I think... if I can listen to 20 minutes or so of the ultimate transformers/gargoyles crossover (and I personally don't like crossovers myself. XD) at a convention with someone I JUST got introduced to before they told me their 'vision'... I think I can listen to other peps too. XD

Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

Shinga > I'm in the same situation as you, yet I'm looking into what I can do to attend as well...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>")> ...

Denis> Dunno if you know me or not, a lot of people do and don't. Suffice to say I'm not looking for freebies or whatever you're saying I'm looking for. Nor is jealousy a factor. I simply started this when someone said: "Hey, someone should point out the -REAL- reason for everything," and I just happened to be one of the ones who knew what he was talking about.

As for putting together my own con or something (a furthering of the "Put up or Shut up" theory)... I'm already looking into things. And if something concrete comes of it, you can bet yer ass I will make sure everyone knows about it. (When challenged, and I know I can overcome it and prove doubters wrong, I make sure to make it known, if only for the old "F-you you're wrong. F-you I'm right." principle.)

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Ok... the gloves are coming off.

KYAN> <<You stepped into the spotlight, now suffer the heat. People want answers.>>

It's clear to some of us that you haven't read the entire room

First of all you were given answers. There is no conspiracy. There is nothing

<<No it's not the end of the world that the gathering has ended. It just would have been nice for it to have been dealt with in a slightly more dignified manner. >>

It was, we announced with as much class as we could. We paired it with what we thought was good news. And what did we get? We got accusations, conspiracy theories, and lies and slander about Greg Weisman and one of our co-chairs.

Maybe instead of being hostile to us, you should all be pointing fingers at the lying idiot who took it upon himself to set the tone here.

We expected flack. We expected anger. We didn't expect lies and slander.

But, hey, we're the cliquish con staff. So it must be ok. /sarcasm.

<<Crzy's attitude when directly asked for answers raised well... questions with me. Why not simply answer the question? Why get so defensive?>>

Um... did you see the unnecessary, and unjustified personal attacks here.

But you know what, I've been reading this stuff about cliques and complaints for a while now. You have trouble making friends? Guess what, so do I. By all rights, I should be one of the last people who got welcomed into that group. But, you know what, I did get welcomed. What you put into something can be just as important as what you get.

And again, as always, this is not about us, and never has been about us. I am sure that if another group got together in a few years to try their hand at this, any of us would be more than happy to advise.

You can doubt it all you want, but try it, and then ask us. You might be pleasantly surprised.

But, if all anyone wants to do is complain because Jen, Patrick, me or anyone else is not your best friend and you're not in the con staff clique. Grow a thicker skin, and a spine along with it (because these personal attacks here are so fucking cowardly) and make friends with other people in this fandom or conventions... because god knows there are plenty of great folks here and they're not us.

We have plenty of our own short comings. Don't blame us for yours.

In the mean time, I will remind this ungrateful fandom of a few things.

You were told to spread the word on the DVD release of "Season Two: Volume One." Greg kept warning you that the next DVD wasn't guaranteed. But way too many of you figured the next volume was guaranteed. If I had a penny for every time I saw people say it was guaranteed. Greg warned you, few of you listened... and boom, the ax came down on Volume Two, and most of you were shocked and said "why weren't we warned?" You were warned.

You were told to spread the word and buy the comics. You were warned. What did I see at this past Gathering when Greg asked how many were buying the comics? Less than half the hands in the room went up. The sales dwindled. Word was not spread, and despite it selling well for SLG anyway, it did not sell well enough for them to justify the increased licensing fee... which it easily could have if this fandom actually cared.

You were told to support the Gathering and spread the word. Again, not much of there either. Attendance has been dwindling... and you're shocked when the convention goes away too.

So, in the first two instances you blame Disney, and in the latter, you blame the con staff.

If you want to play the blame game, look into a mirror and point the finger where it belongs.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

I was about to post something, but Ed beat me to in many of the reasons on why the series is... where it is right now. So I won't repeat it.

I'm busy and haven't had the time to really look through this forum today, but I think I get the gist of the feeling. Anybody who has been to a Gathering (And I only ever made it to the one in Dallas) and enjoyed themselves, has little right to complain. The sheer depth of cost in time, energy, and money to host these things is immense. If you haven't hosted one, you can't begin to comprehend that.

I haven't been able to make it to one myself for some time because San Diego comicon always eats up the time I would have otherwise spent there, but I would have loved to have gone again. I've never contributed to the Gatherings, but I contributed in my own way to the fandom over the years.

Chief among these things, aside from the fanfic and days where I was a major part of TGS, is of course, working on issues 7-12 of the comic and Badguys, professionally taking time and money away from higher paying work, out of my schedule to work on this property that I loved so much. That we all loved.

So I can understand the sacrifice and dedication and time put into putting on a convention. Be grateful that we had it as long as we did. And do your best to make it to the last one. As others have said, given that its evolved into a social thing more than about renewing interest in the show itself, it could always migrate to Comicon, or mini-gatherings as some have suggested. Not as it was, but as a variation of itself, that still has some of the heart and some of the people, if not the actual 72 solid hours dedicated solely to one thing.

The fandom will endure, because their have been friends and relationships born of this great show. And what is built well, and loved, endures.

We all know that Greg Weisman brings his A game to any project he works on, so we're gonna remain interested in his career, and boositng his ego from time to time. Currently, Spectacular Spidey is pretty darn amazing, I think we can all agree. And whatever he does next, we'll be interested. When the producers and writers and voice talent and art directors that were on Gargoyles move to and work on other projects, as they have for 15 years, we're still interested. (Heck, I bought 3x3 Eyes just for the dub...) Because we have respect for the talent that brought forth that one project, and the energy that has gone into many others since.

Enjoy what there is, reminisce of what we've had, and look forward to the future. WHATEVER the future brings. Just keep respect and keep it civil, and this show from 15 years ago that bonded us all together, will keep us together. The announcement of the end of an era shouldn't curtail all else or lead to anger, but in new ideas and new volunteers to try other things.

Enjoy what ya got!

Robby Bevard


Talk about an explosion of epic fandom proportions.

I for one am looking into what I can possibly do to attend the Gathering. With no job and little money and bills and debt to worry about it's looking grim but maybe a miracle will happen. ;)

Shinga - [shingadinga at gmail dot com]

I think the underpinning issues behind the Gathering's decline, more than any of the interpersonal problems, are these:

The 'Gargoyles' series has been dead a LONG TIME.

The comic never really got off the ground -- THREE YEARS after it started, we only have one post-'Journey' story complete and published. That tally will go up in the next few weeks -- but not by much. And then we're back to square one.

TGS is dead. Most of the once-great 'Gargoyles' sites are long-dead. The film project is dead.

Some of the exclusive Gathering items have been trumped. We've now seen 'Bad Guys'. Seen the original presentation. Heard a lot at Ask Greg, and there's not much point Greg revealing much more with the comic up in the air.

A lot of people have moved on. Unless there is a steady flow of new material with some degree of momentum, the Gathering really has no glue but the relationships of the people, and those relationships will inevitably grow apart over time because that's how these things go.

Moreover, while in 1997 the show was still full of potential, the cancellation and the injustice of TGC hurt, and there was a sense that the show COULD be so much more. If the film comes back, if the cons are a hit, if... if... if...

Now, we've pretty much seen the ceiling of what we can expect. The size and potency of the fandom has been tested again and again. We had the DVDs, we had the comics. We know that the franchise can just about sustain a small audience but it's always going to be touch and go. There's no big win on the horizon. There are a number of small, short-lived wins in the rear-view mirror. There's the possibility of a touch-and-go continuation by Greg eventually. But no more than that, probably.

The con is no longer the best hope to demonstrate the size of the fanbase. There are now much more reliable measurements of the fanbase's size and eagerness to spend. Sales figures.

It shouldn't be a surprise the con is sucking in fumes when you think about it.

Add in the recession and (where I am) exchange rate fluctuations and the situation looks even bleaker.

That's the bad news. Now let's think of where to go from here. Ways to raise funds for the Gathering coffers, or ways to take the fandom forward.

These are my suggestions. Some may not work, some may. What are yours?


Not too complicated: just tape 2009, edit it together and sell it.

The panels, the intro, the radio play. Nothing designed to be exclusive, 'cause -- who knows, someday it may be back. And obviously not all the guests may be comfortable being filmed. But whatever can be filmed.

DVDs are nice souvenirs for visitors; a chance for others to see what they're missing; and a reminder of what was.

I realise it sounds like I'm just volunteering an overworked staff to do more work. But it strikes me it wouldn't be too expensive, hopefully wouldn't be all that labour-intensive and could probably help make back a bit of money. Give discounts to people who attend if the bureaucracy in doing that's not too complex.


Are there any other similar cons with which Gargoyles could merge; share costs, pool manpower? Joining up with a Trek or Elfquest or for that matter SPIDER-MAN con. Or have a small representation at one of the larger American conventions.

Of course, the danger with changing the focus of the con is that the Gargoyles section fizzles away into nothing. On the flip side, people might learn about the show who never would have been introduced to it otherwise. And it's the only way I can see to keep alive the idea of a meeting point for people to mingle in the flesh.


If the aim is to keep the continuity of the con going without there being a con, doing some variant of the con online might be the best bet. You can still charge people for access, and still have it take place over a weekend -- it's just it would happen in secure chatrooms, over Skype or webcams, and in people's living rooms or in hotels where people can gather in groups of five or ten from local areas.

You'd lose the banquet and some of the other things might be difficult to emulate. Mostly of course, it would be impersonal and wouldn't be the same thing at all. But it's a good way for people who might never otherwise attend to try it out. Main thing though would be to find a way for people to meet and get involved and get (back) a sense of community that's been fractured.

Also, if the overheads are much lower, maybe replenish the coffers a bit... see about a proper con in 2011. Keeps the profile of the Gathering up and just plain keeps some sense of the continuity which I think is important.

You could also have special memberships for fans of Spectacular Spidey -- which, let's face it, is going to be a big pool of new people.


I think this is the best way forward for the Gathering, even though it's the least like the convention.

The Spider-Man Crawlspace podcast Greg Weisman guested on a couple of times is excellent. Informed, engaging, always with great guests.

A regular podcast like this would keep people engaged more than once in a year. It would be a year-round thing. Something to prompt discussion. But also portable, convenient -- something to listen to on the way to work.

And while the con is, by its nature, kind of closed and hidden away, a podcast would be a great advert for the series in the outside world. I only know about Crawlspace because Greg was on it. Want to get Buffy fans on board? Do a podcast with Greg about the Buffyverse and how both shows have translated to comic form and the restrictions and complications of that. Then plug it across Buffy sites. Cover Spectacular Spider-Man. Talk to other comic people. Keep 'Gargoyles' in the loop but branch out as well. Talk about writing. Talk about producing. Talk about running the cons! Talk about Shakespeare and nanotechnology and get people on to discuss legends local to them. Not every podcast has to appeal to everyone.

Of course, not everyone might be comfortable talking on the radio or have the technology to do it. There would need to be people hosting and people guesting, fans as well as pros, and people who can read e-mails and articles on behalf of others where that's appropriate.

Money is obviously a big issue. For hosting, possibly for bringing in guests, for any other costs. The Crawlspace I believe is ad-funded. It might be harder to attract advertising to Gargoyles than Spidey. A fee-based system limits the audience significantly though. Donations might be the best starting point and then see where it goes from there.

Contributions are another issue. This is where the overlap with the Gathering comes in because of course the best way to get people hooked is to have guests who are genuinely interesting.

This is something I would certainly help out with if I could. The broadband in this area isn't stable enough to run Skype very well right now, but pre-recorded blocks, research, organisation, preparation, possibly editing, promotion...

Some thoughts. Would be interested to hear others.

Gore: I like the CR a lot and would be sad to see it go, but the group blog is an intriguing idea. I don't know if it would really work now -- it might just dampen down discussion still further because there aren't that many discussion-prompting posts as it stands. There's not really the discussion to add shape to these days. A pity though.

Demonskrye: Sorry to see you leaving. Your posts are always thoughtful and eloquently expressed and I really enjoy reading them when I stop by, even when I don't respond. I hope you come back soon.


Hell yeah, Don Gorbash! :)
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Just a bit of perspective on the con thing-

Mae Lee was the person who organized the first con in 1997. She took the risk and responsibility and went into it with very little experience and came away with what's become the standard for all cons since.

She did a huge amount of organizing the con by herself. She started the ball rolling. She got not only Greg but Keith David to appear. She got the hotel in NYC. She brought it all together.

I think we've got a few Mae Lees still left in the fandom.


Y2Hecate> *nod* I figured if there was something already set up that the donations would go to cover this year first. I just wasn't sure whether the current system was set up to accept any amount or just the ones given on the registration page.

Arg. I really, really wish I had a job. -..- *headdesk*

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Gah, it didn't like that hyperlink

copy paste:



Leo - [<- web archive of early gartherings]

Just for nostalgia sake, I took a trip to the wayback machine archive and browsed through the fragments of some web pages of past gatherings from 1998 - 2005 back when it was still gathering.gargoyles-fans.org.

Kind of interesting to see how the sites evolved from the mostly text based 1998 page, with the single @yahoo contact email. :) (Since gargoyles-fans.org came on line in 1998, the 97 con isn't in that archive. It's probaly on a dead aol bbs, or angelfire page if it had one. Same for the 1999 con. I'm sure one of the REAL OLD farts of the fandom might remember :-P)

http://gathering.gargoyles-fans.org/">Leo - [<- web archive of early gartherings]

Kerry - I believe The Gathering's paypal addy is registration@gatheringofthegargoyles.com
Might want to check with Patrick if we're setup for random donations. I think paypal can accept anything, really, but I'm not sure about businessy type account dealings. And first, the donations would all go to the current year, making it awesome, before anything future is considered, I'm pretty sure.
If someone else starts up separate events in the future, they'd want to set up their own donation thing, of course.

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate at gmail dot com]

Kth> plenty of options. one could create a PayPal account and add a "donate" button that would allow people donate whatever amount of money they want into said PayPal account. I believe Amazon.com has something similar. There are probably other options as well, which someone could research.

All it takes is something willing to take the risk and responsibility to start the ball rolling.

As I said, setup a blog or a forum where you can talk about what's involved in organizing a convention. Figure out who's willing to help with what. Figure out a location. Start talking to hotels about costs and such. See if there are people who've worked on cons in the past who would be willing to give (and you'd be willing to listen to) advice.

Once you hit a point that you're comfortable you could handle the scope of such a thing, start pulling it alltogether. It takes a lot of time and effort, but it can be done.


Kyan - We have been answering questions. What still needs to be answered?

Landon - As for bids for 2010, none were official yet. All people that I know who were considering it were on current staff and we were all still discussing the situation. We haven't pushed to make an official bid in the usual process because we're unable to if there's no money coming in for startup. If we could.. we wouldn't have had to make this upsetting announcement in the first place.
Otherwise, I'm not 100% about ALL you're asking, but I don't see why anyone that wanted to organize a meetup or convention couldn't call it a Gathering (I'd kinda would want to make my own name or something slightly different to indicate the change, but that's me). They'd just likely have to start from scratch. If they did it on their own, separate from this ending "Gathering of the Gargoyles" corporation thingy, they would be responsible for collecting new registrations, so yes, the year they're collecting for would get the funds, rather than it going towards the past con's debt (if there's any). And even if they were under the corporation thingy, just continuing, I think they could still collect reg and stuff without having to back pay old con debt? Since it's usually a new or changed staff each year, I'm fairly sure each year takes care of it's own debts (unless maybe the top staff are exactly the same and they can work things out in order to pay the debt down), and passes on any profit to the next year if able. I didn't have to deal with debt in 2007, coming in, or going out, so I'm not 100% sure on that.
So.. someone do it? There's nothing stopping anyone from picking up and carrying on. The current core staff just can't do it anymore alone. So basically, the traditional Gathering year-to-year system is what's ending. The ball is back in the fandom's court, just as it was before The Gathering started. It's just gonna take people willing and able to fund and organize the events. Go for it! I intend to if I'm able and no one else has done so yet.
That's what I think anyway. I fully admit I could be off on some of it.

Not to anyone in particular, just a thought - If so many people have been turned off by this whole "clique" thing, and don't like the people "in charge".. well then this is perfect and exactly what you'd want, isn't it? If you think other people are more deserving of whatever "power" con staffing might include.. now is totally the time for those people to step up.

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate at gmail dot com]

It looks like some people are willing to participate in organizing a Gathering in the future, and just don't have the funding available for up-front costs. Would there be a way to set up a place where fans can donate *any* amount towards the organization of a future Gathering? I know there's already a $20 supporting membership option, but what if someone could only give $5, or wanted to contribute more than a full membership would cost?
Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Denis> "I feel crushed, but lives go on, and so will the fandom -I hope- even without the Gatherings."

I concur.

As much as I'd like to be able to go and mingle with the other fans and attend panels and hobnob with the guests again, I can't afford it this year, and, short of somebody picking up the reins later down the road, I won't be able to go again. For the obvious reason that everyone now knows and have been conversing about. There are people I'd like to be able to meet again, and things I'd like to do and or see again, and, yes, the fact that I can't either this year or any other year in the near future seriously blows.

However, life goes on, and hopefully so will this fandom. And maybe someday we'll have a Gathering again.

I'd be interested in helping run one, if I get the chance. I don't have a whole lot of cash to spend, but I'd be willing to do what I can.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Why not enjoy this Gathering for those who can, instead of fighting and pointing fingers?
It saddens me deeply that I won't be able to join, due to familial issues, and that it's the last one.
But I'm really greatful to the crew who pulled it through for so long, and invest so much money in it. This is a labor of love, people, and they've done it for several years on OUR behalf.

Nick Sharpe, if you're soo savy and all, why don't YOU try and organize a Gathering? It's easy to criticize when it's not your hard work and pennies that pull the great conventions we've -we in the collective sense- attended in the past. I haven't the skills, stamina, health, endurance and money to do it myself, or I would gladly have. and I acclaim those who could and did.
Power not earned, my hairy hide! they made it happen and often against the odds. That in my book hallows them call the shots where it's concerned.
That's all I have to say about it. Not scooping lower to someone who's trying to rip OUR fandom appart on what looks like petty jealous.
if you are whom I think you are, and wand to nick the freebies this person promise me in retaliation, do it. I don't give a fying rat. My loyalty goes to my friends in the fandom who pulled their weight and our own.

I feel crushed, but lives go on, and so will the fandom -I hope- even without the Gatherings.


Denis - [quinceyfordersl at gmail dot com]
He's fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun

Kythera of Anevern - Sure thing! All I need now is a fedora with a press card stuck in the brim.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Cna I also say, bravo to Landon for that speech. You have a very good point. The whole attitude seems to be "We don't answer to you, we say it's over so get lost" which seems a little well.. odd to me. Simply explaining the situation isn't that difficult is it? Crzy's attitude when directly asked for answers raised well... questions with me. Why not simply answer the question? Why get so defensive?

You're right, there are die hard fans out there who may very well make the effort to come a small gathering. Heck, downsizing might give everyone the wakeup call to realise it's not about big names and events, it's about meeting up and celebrating something you're all passionate about.
I think it was a mistake to say right out "the gathering is over" because so long as there are fans out there, there will be unofficial get togethers. Maybe not on the same scale or with the same organisation, but we WILL still gather and we WILL still enjoy ourselves. You never know, in a few years when the economy has recovered, someone might work out a way to host an event for cheap and the gathering will rise like the proverbial phoenix. Never say never, forever is a long time.


Gorbash> Sounds like a good idea actually, would make trawling the archives for news a LOT easier.

Whoever said something about the "clique" being helpful. Oh i'm sure they are, IF and only IF you're the sort of person they deem worthy. See, I never was and i'm not the only one. If you weren't exactly how they thought you should be/act/behave etc, well.. you were out. As is the case with all cliques really. Some are more welcoming than others and I never felt the s8 lot actually made the effort to extend that hospitality. Sad, but that's how I personally was made to feel. Make of it what you will.

I also reitterate, cons and gatherings aren't just about the events. God knows the only reason I ever really wanted to go was to meet those gargoyles fans i'd chatted to, rped with, gotten to know over the years. Isn't that the case with most of us? It's certainly a large driving factor. If you have no-one to meet/hang out with, why would you bother travelling all that way and hope maybe, just maybe, some of the lot who HAVE gotten to know eachother over the years might let you into their fold temporarily. A lot of us have never attended because we had no-one to attend with. No-one to meet. So yeah, the insular nature of a lot of the fans (not just s8 mind, I think a lot of us are guilty of being a bit insular in our little groups) Has driven people away. This saddens me.

No it's not the end of the world that the gathering has ended. It just would have been nice for it to have been dealt with in a slightly more dignified manner.
Frankly, i'm more upset the comic deal has been ended heh.


Y2Hecate - In case someone is thinking about scheduling a new get-together, I'm wondering if you can expand on this:

"Now this year, bids aren't a problem. I'd love to run another one on the East coast, and I believe we had at least one more person wanting to head up 2010 in the South West. But attendance and support is. If there's no money, there's no way we can begin to book things and plan. It's sadly that simple, just like has been stated here many times already."

I'm going to interpret the situation. Let me know if any facts are wrong: every year the Gathering attendance goes down and the 'corporation', as CrzyDemona put it, goes more in the red. That means the next year's con chair has to pay more out of pocket initially to cover the convention space, fly in guests, etc. Since there's no money for 2010 at all this year, the chair will have to pay all the cash up front to book the space.

What doesn't jibe for me is the juxtaposition of the Gathering folks saying "it's over" vs. the fact that anyone at all can submit a bid and there are 2010 bids in good standing. There's an implied infrastructural support and I'm wondering what exactly that is. Could someone schedule a zero-budget Perkins meet-and-greet and call it a Gathering? Could someone restructure and downsize the whole affair like E3 did for 2007 and call it a Gathering?

Could someone create Gathering 2010 if they're willing to plan with zero budget? Presumably there is a contingent of die-hards that go to every Gathering and will immediately register for 2010 when it becomes available. Would their registration fees all go to the theoretical 2010 con or will there be a lien to cover some debt from past years?

I hope none of this is offensive. I just think lots of transparency and info right now will give us the best chance for future cons.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Gore - Talk about empty - I WISH everyone would sign up for and chat in our Gathering Forum. D: I upgraded and made it all shiny this year.

(linked below if anyone's suddenly interested. HINT HINT)

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate at gmail dot com]

Were I looking to replace the CR I might setup a single blog that at least ten (but willing to grow in number of) people with access to write entries and leave the blog open to comments (without having to register). This would create some directed discussions (instead of the haphazard fashion we find here), but wouldn't be dominated by a single voice.

Why not just a straight-up forum system? Because unless you've got a large user-base it feels ... empty (for lack of a better word).

Just an idea.


*glances at all the comments and is suddenly lost. Will try and read later*

I think I'll just post what I thought of the NC review. While I don't think it was his best review (really, his best reviews are when he gets really mad or utterly confused and acts all crazy; y'know, entertaining), I think it was a very good one. Yes, I would have liked a little more, but he was coming at it as a person who 1) hadn't seen it in a while, and 2) a possible newcomer. Most of it is centered around "Awakening", and he did make some assumptions, like with Bronx. Some were surprisingly fun and accurate (considering what we know now), like his comments about Lex. Mostly, he was picking up and mocking plot holes that most people the first time through would kind of wonder about. That really is what makes his reviews fun. And he does acknowledge things further outside the pilot episodes, like the complexity of the villains and, of course, the ST:TNG cast theme that developed. Overall, he was very positive about the series. I kinda wish he'd made a comment about the comics, but he is generally focused on the TV series, and between the comments on the video page and in the respective forum pages, I think people will learn about them and the DVD releases. So, a pretty good review.

*does not know if she wants to read all the stuff below*


Landon: Thanks for the Twitter feed, by the way! :D
Kythera of Anevern
"Live for glory, strength and fury; play your part in the greater scheme of life and nature" - Inkubus Sukkubus

Y2Hecate & Gorebash - Thanks for the posts. It's really fans with drive and initiative that keep Gargoyles alive and it's why no other cartoon out there has their own con (much less 13 in a row). I should have started showing up to cons in 2003 when I first became a fan instead of this year's being my first. I just took them for granted.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Yeah, that Nostalgia Critic piece on Gargoyles is awesome. Best thing I've seen in a while.



All the bickering.. it makes me ill. Why point fingers? Why not use that energy to come up with a plan for a new convention or raising money for The Gathering so it doesn't have to end or something?

As others has said, in much more detail and accuracy than I could have. Bids each year have been lacking. Attendance dwindling.
I remember in 2006, it was a week before the next year bid deadline, and NO ONE had stepped up. 2006 could have been the last Gathering. Amid college tests and work and all else, and having never been more than a volunteer, I put together a bid for 2007 in Pigeon Forge, TN. The "clique" some of you referred to welcomed me with open arms and were nothing short of amazingly helpful, willing to come on my year's staff when more hands were needed, and I've been 100% on board to help following years with anything I can.
That includes this year.. and any future years of any convention that wants to feature or even just include Gargoyles.
Now this year, bids aren't a problem. I'd love to run another one on the East coast, and I believe we had at least one more person wanting to head up 2010 in the South West. But attendance and support is. If there's no money, there's no way we can begin to book things and plan. It's sadly that simple, just like has been stated here many times already.
If anyone wants to donate a few thousand dollars, I'll gladly (as I'm a terrible glutton for punishment) host another year. I just simply can't afford it out of my own pocket. Goodness knows, though, if I get a job and can save up (or win the lotto!), I'll try and bring it back, or start up something new!
And if anyone else is actually serious about continuing/starting a Gargoyles con, I'm an open book and would still be willing to help anywhere I'm able. I know people don't get along, but we all love Gargoyles and want to see the fandom thrive. I don't know why it's just assumed (by some) that all current/past convention staff would clam up and not even offer advice or past experience.
I'm staff. I want more Gargoyles stuff.. comics, shows, online fandom, conventions, etc. I'll do all I can to help that. I'm as saddened, if not moreso, as anyone to see one convention wrap up, so if there's any chance of future activity in any way, I'm ALL for that, even if it's as small as a meetup without dinners and panels and meeting room/guest fees!

Bickering or not, I love you guys.

Y2Hecate - [y2hecate at gmail dot com]

Everyone has an opinion on what's wrong and is more than willing to offer it. Nobody wants to actually do anything about it. That's the real problem.

There never has been an "official" con. The Gathering isn't "official" in any sense. It's just that it's been the ONLY con up 'til now that's had any consistency and success. And that's due, in no small part, to a small group of people who dedicate a lot of time and effort every year into making sure the con happens. And all they get for that effort is a bunch of snarky remarks on the internet. That's great motivation to keep on putting in the time and effort.

If you want to see another con then organize one yourself. There's nothing standing in your way. I will gladly advertise any Gargoyles con on this site. There's clearly people in here who are willing to help. All you have to do is create a blog or a twitter account or a Google site or find some web space where you can organize things and start asking for help. Even if it's just to start a dialog about possibilities, even if you're unsure you could put something like that together you should at least try.

You can't argue that any "bomb" was dropped. The attendance figures for The Gathering have been published many times and it's very easy to see the trend that attendance wasn't going up, but down. This isn't news. We've known this for years. And for years the con staff have asked people for help in getting the word out. And now people say "why didn't you tell us" and "I would have helped". Where have you been?! You want to help? Start right now. We've got two months until the next con. Put up flyers. Find online forums and start pushing the convention. Get the word out. That's how you can help right now.

Don't like the atmosphere or the way this comment room operates? Start your own. I will gladly link to your web site, or blog, or whatever else you come up with. I'll put up a new section on how to meet and talk with other fans and I'll link to every forum, comment room, blog and web site. If there are a few outs for fans to communicate each other that are actively maintained I'll gladly shut down the CR and redirect people to those other resources. Nobody is going to eat rotten cheese if there's some fresh stuff freely available. So if you've already got a place, or you put one together, tell me about it. Tell everyone in the CR about it. Plug away. Get the word out.

Lastly, yes, there are groups of people who tend to hang together because they enjoy each other's company. And the stuff some of these groups do looks cool and fun and you're hurt beause you weren't included. So now you want to make everyone else feel your misery because that's somehow fair. But maybe, instead of trying to make others feel bad, you should try and find your own fun and cool things to do, rather than sit and wait for others to make life fun and cool for you. It would, at the very least, be far more constructive for both yourself and the rest of the fandom than just smearing vitriol across the comment room.


You know, I haven't been in here in AGES and I do mean that. I usually just drop into s8 chat room and see what's up, but I received an email this morning from a young lady saying the Gathering was at an end. While I am saddened by this - I've paid for a membership since the first LA in 2006 con - I am not upset to the point of all this mayhem. I TRIED to read all the posts and comments and bickering and headeache, but only made it about three-fifths of the way through it. There is a lot of fingerpointing and name calling going on and it's quite childish. Yes, I'm calling a LOT of the adults in here childish. I have two kids here with me who argue less over toys. I guess it's a matter of importance.

Yes, it's sad the Gathering is not being hosted again next year by the same staffers. It's sad that G2010 isn't up and motivated. It's sad, but it's not the end of the bloomin' world.

I don't want to be argued with... I haven't got the time with two kids anymore. Gargoyles is fun for me. I have fanfics and pictures all over my house. I've got con stuff from the last three years stashed in my keepsake box. I've enjoyed my time in the fandom and will stick around until s8 comment and chat room die completely. MAY THAT NEVER HAPPEN! I'm not going to stop enjoying the show or comics or characters just because there's not going to be a Gathering.

"Hey, if she dies, we'll just ressurect her when we can." -Allisondre, D&D session

I can't be bothered reading any more of this drivel to be honest... it's just annoying.

Yes it's sad there's no more gathering, I never went because I live in the UK and the expense is just too much. That and when I HAD the money, I was too young to travel on my own without at least a friend.
That said, I have brought a fair few people into the fandom over the years, one who even somehow managed to penetrate the inner circle of S8, much to my annoyance as i'd never been accepted.
Yes, that's right... I agree with Todd on this. I avoided s8 because the regular chatters were, on the whole, jerks. They would ignore me, I always felt like they were looking down their noses at me and that really isn't the environment you want anywhere.
I didn't feel welcome, so i've mostly ignored this website over the years. Reading snippets of Ask Greg every so often but mostly paying no heed to the drama and general clique gossip.

I agree with those who have said the con doesn't just have to end. It seems a little dramatic and honestly? Just a call for attention. There's no reason it couldn't be resurrected in a few years time and hell, I suspect it probably will be. Problem is, would the original team actually be willing to offer their experience and assistance to any new blood wanting to start a con but not really knowing where to start? I doubt it.
And so, till they get bored and seek the gratitude once more, we just have to wait. Hell, the camaraderie has always been a far more appealing aspect of any fandom to me than dressing up or acting out scenes or meeting the cast. Unfortunately, with the gathering and s8, that camaraderie wasn't there, never has been.
So the fandom lives on, but the official convention is in indefininte torper.
See, saying "Due to financial restraints we'll have to put the convention on hold indefinitely after this one" would have been far less dramatic than "This is the last one EVER!"
Forever is a long time... such finality seems.. well... just a way to add needless drama.

Can I just say, the attitude of the so named "old guard" is on the whole, absolutely atrocious. From what i've been reading, you people can't take criticm. Well, too bad. You stepped into the spotlight, now suffer the heat. People want answers.


I think I'm going to be taking a brief break from the Comment Room. I'm not looking to be overdramatic, but like I said, I don't like the drama and fandom politics and and that seems to be taking over for the time being. Is it nice to see the Comment Room full of posts again? Kind of, though I have to admit I didn't end up reading all of them. But this really has almost nothing to do with "Gargoyles." We could br having the exact same discussion about a TransFormers convention or a Barbie convention or a Precious Moments figurines convention. I keep coming here because I like some of the people who post here and it's a good way to get up to date "Gargoyles" info. But when it devolves into personal attacks, endless arguing on the same points, and "OK, I'm done with this. Wait, actually I'm not. All right, now I'm done. But here I am again," frankly, it just wears me out. When a website is just stressing me out, my logical side tells me it's time to take a break from it for a while and I'm at the point where I'm willing to listen to that side of me.

I will probably be back and because I don't want to be a total drama queen, I'm not going to say definitively how long of a hiatus I intend to take in cse I change my mind later. My e-mail address is available for people who want to talk about "Gargoyles" or other subjects unrelated to the demise of the Gathering.

At the end of the day, "Gargoyles" is a TV series and comic book. Granted, it is a TV series and comic book I happen to enjoy, but with all due respect, is that really something you need to fight about?

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

If I were the only one who felt this way, some of your retorts might hold water, but I'm not. I'm just the one who argued the most so I got the most attention. But if you guys really read the comments, you'll see numerous people supported what I had to say. Think about it. Might make a positive difference going forward.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]


*Pulls out a 3 tier chocolate cake and a doughnut bazooka*


Chameleon may change her spots but she doesn't do plaid

*Dusts off the comment box*

I haven't been here in a while and it's been even longer since I've commented. I'm not going to remark on the rather negative comments that I've seen in this weeks comments, it won't do anyone any good and only muddies the water more.

I came by to give my thoughts on the Gathering and it's impeding (maybe impermanent) demise.

My first Gathering was Montreal. I'd been somewhat active in the fandom for about a year (Gargoyles was my first fandom and will always have a fuzzy place in my heart) when I decided to drop $5000 on airfares and accommodation simply so I could attend a 3 day Con in some foreign city. In case you're goggling at the price - I flew from Australia to support the Con and meet the friends I had made.
I did the same thing the next year for Las Vegas.

Since returning from the Vegas Con, I've gone through several jobs, returned to school, been so *very* broke and gone through a rather bad illness/depressive period.
I was never able to attend another Con, no matter how much I wanted to. It was only this year that I slapped my self in the forehead and submitted a supporting membership. I may not have been able to go this year, but did what I could.

I was very disappointed to receive the email this morning that mentioned the end of the Gathering. I have nothing but respect and support for everyone who has worked on Staff or Volunteered. I know it is hard and it is expensive and very often it is thankless.
The Gathering, it's Staff, Guests and attendees have given me some wonderful memories.

So thank you. Enjoy this years Con if you're going, don't forget to take plenty of pics for the rest of us.

And please remember that the end of the Gathering does not mean an end of the Fandom. We're all still here, some are just better at blending in with the scenery :)

Chameleon may change her spots but she doesn't do plaid

*Busts in*


Uhm, what the...
*sees all the posts, reads a few*

OK, uhm, I've got an appointment to rase some money for my debut film, but when I'm done, I hope this hasn't even grown twice the sice... ;)

I agree with Rebel on EVERYTHING she says!!

Wow hasn't been this busy in here for a long time.

Last year I come all the way from the UK to come to my first Gathering and I enjoyed every minute of it and I'm glad I spent nearly all my share of a lottery win just to come.

I decided to take a HUGE GAMBLE and come to this years Gathering and i'm glad I took that Gamble. I saved up all year for this and i'm still saving up and i've surprised myself how I managed to cope as I only work for Mcdonalds.

It's a shame there won't be a Gathering next year but if there was one I wouldn't be able to come (so at least I wouldn't be missing anything) but If theres going to be a Gathering (CROSSING MY FINGERS)in 2011/2012 ect hopefully i'll have enough money saved up and I'll be on that plane.

Well done for getting Marina Sirtis which is a huge surprise, I didn't expect that.

VickyUK - [vickyfanofwwe at aol dot com]

Here's the Digg article: http://digg.com/comics_animation/Does_anyone_remember_Gargoyles_The_Nostalgia_Critic_does

Please click on the link and click "digg" so people notice it.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Here's the permanent link: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic/8726-gargoyles

I just managed to sneak a comment about the comics on the 1st page. Let's hope for 200,000+ hits like his other videos. Digg it, Fark it, whatever you need to do.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

... and what the hell is wrong with my sig?

::deletes it::

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

FIREDANCER> <<Can Bishansky be annoyingly analytical at times? *grinz at Greg*>>

That's an Annoyingly Analytical Asshole. Triple A and don't you forget it! ;)

Lovely post, btw. Thank you so much for it.


Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that���¢�¯�¿�½�¯�¿�½s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it���¢�¯�¿�½�¯�¿�½s nothing. It���¢�¯�¿�½�¯�¿�½s just bibble-babble. It���¢�¯�¿�½�¯�¿�½s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks." -Harlan Ellison

That video was awesome but as previously stated, he did not mention the comics or dvds. But who cares. We can mention it in the comments. Yeah it wont get as much recognition but it will still help. Im posting my comment now.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]
I have officially lost my namesake.

My question is, *more spoikers* Who's gonna own up to the transvestite Goliath fan art used in that video? ;)

AntiYonder: ROFLMFAO! *dies laughing*
Firedancer - [xfiredancerx at gmail dot com]

I just listened to the NC review myself -- I too got a kick out of "Queens" not to mention his ramble on "Future Tense" d: And (**Spoilers!!**) Goliath's 'You and I' moment with Demona from Awakening set to 70s music . . . priceless XD

Too bad he didn't mention the current comics, but it was a solid (and funny) review still.

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Antiyonder - Wow, that was fantastic. Probably the best video overview yet.

Heh, Queens.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Well....I know it has been years and YEARS since I last posted here. Hell a lot of you probably don't even know me, but according to one of the many lovely comments made around here I am what you would call 'old money'. Granted I never went to any of the conventions until just three years ago, but a few of you old timers probably remember me from back in the day of CoS and the original Garg chat room on AOL (OMG has it really been 15 frakking years?! YIKES) So...now that that's established, I feel the need to speak up on a few points here as well.

First of all NICK: You were WAAAAYYYY out of line with some of what you said. Ok, personally I think a lot of what you said was just frakked up, but seriously man....what kind of person are you that you would come to a board and then LAMBAST the creator of a show that you supposedly loved? I mean really? You had nothing better to do but attack his friendships with other people? You want to complain about the Gathering and the way it was run? Fine. But to personally attack and bring up rumors like you did is wrong on so many levels and have NO PLACE in a discussion like this. It is beneath being petty, and quite frankly...I find people who pull that kind of sh!t are spineless.

Todd: You complain about the 'Con Staff Clique' and the Elites (HALO!!! Ahem). Well, first of all let me say that everyone understands your point, but you seem to missing theirs as well. Apparently you were treated poorly enough ONLINE that you never went to the Gathering that you had registered. Well I gotta tell ya man....you missed out. There are a lot of people who show up at those Gatherings who are not part of the so-called CSQ (Con Staff Clique. And they all seemed to have a great time. Now I went to my very first Gathering in 2006...it was total spur of the moment, and I hadn't seen nor talked to many of this group in well over a decade. As such I wasn't a part of the CSQ, just your average attendee...and there were quite a few 'new-bloods' in attendance who were having a blast! This one couple decided to combine that Gathering with their first year anniversary and absolutely LOVED every minute of it. For me and them and a lot of other people who were 'outsiders' as you and Nick would probably label us, it was a great experience.

As for certain people's attitudes? Why does it matter so much that you have to have everyone's approval and friendship? Ok...so you don't like some of the people on the Staff....so what? So maybe some people have made some mistakes in the past that UNINTENTIONALLY hurt your feelings.....it's called being human man. We are all imperfect. No one here is admitting to never doing any wrong. But instead of addressing that issue a long time ago when it FIRST HAPPENED, you now decided to throw it in peoples faces after someone else has stirred everyone up. And really....let's keep things in perpesctive here: this a FANBOARD...this is not your life man. Let the past go already and move on!

Do I think Jen can be a bitch at times? Hells Ya! And she will proudly wear that badge when it's needed *Smirks at Jen* Can Bishansky be annoyingly analytical at times? *grinz at Greg* So what? Can Patrick be so quiet and shy that you wonder if he doesn't really like you? Then move on *hugz Patrick* These people aren't the only ones in attendance at the Gathering. And I can tell ya that they certainly aren't the only little groups or cliques there either.

One final thing boys: Labeling people/ groups of people you really don't know is again, petty and you make yourself look like an ass to all the rest of the people that have made the effort to get to know them. EFFORT being the key word there. It takes time to develop any kind of friendship with someone. I put myself out there and attempted to do just that with people I had never met at my first Gathering in Tenn. I have to say that Nikki Owens, who chiared the Tenn. Gathering is one of the quietest and most humble people I have met. And yet you guys throw her into the 'Elite" status simply because she was a staffer. Your ignorance is astounding. And now I, someone neither of YOU have ever met or chatted with, will be labeled as such because I am helping out with this years gathering now as well. Someone who is still getting to know a lot of the people on staff, and to them is a 'fresh-blood'.

In General: I can understand why fans are disappointed and upset that this will be the last Gathering (for now) and that they didn't find out until just now. I am disappointed too...but perhaps I shall win the lottery before next year and can help finance another one in the future :) I know that the rest of the Staff was disappointed to have to make this call and if they had been able to make this call earlier it would have been. Here is a humble staffer's apologies and high hopes that someone out there has both the money and the means to continue this in the future...because unlike certain people's claims I WOULD attend.

To the Staff: After having seeing everything that goes on to make all of this happen I am both overwhelmed and in awe of what all of you people who have been doing this for YEARS have done. Kudos to all of you because I honestly don't know HOW you guys have done this without going insane! To everyone else who would criticize their efforts, you honestly have no right. You have no idea what they put into these things...and not just time and money. They also make many personal sacrifices that I would have never thought of, and they do it for you guys. They don't deserve your scorn.

Love to all of you 'old money' out there that I haven't talked to in forever ~Firedancer~

Firedancer - [xfiredancerx at gmail dot com]

CURSE YOU ANTIYONDER! I have been shifting between the CR and NC for the past 5 hours waiting for that update so I could post that news in here and you scoop me!

I have been denied everything. Even my. . . Yeah I wasnt going for revenge at all but you get the point.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

To lighten things up we need a good hilarious video. Or to put it simply, the Nostalgia Critic's review of Gargoyles: http://nostalgiacritic.blip.tv/file/2278492/
Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Abram> I appreciate that. Thank you.

I really don't know what else to say that hasn't already been said. I'm one of the three people (not counting Greg W.) who's been to every single Gathering of the Gargoyles, because I made it a priority. That was my choice. I can't expect people to make the same choice as me.

That said, the problem remains that people just aren't coming to the Gathering anymore. We've moved around, hoping to accommodate people who complained the con was on the other side of the country. We've had tons of guests when we could afford them (LA cons). We've tried bringing new people in by using different shows the cast and crew of Gargoyles have been working on since Gargoyles ended. We've had the comics. And even then, our attendance has dwindled.

So I'll say this. We decided to stop doing the Gathering because people. Aren't. Coming. Anymore. We've tried many things. We've asked for bids, we've asked for help. Oh, there were bids in previous years, but far too few, and several of them showed that the people bidding had no idea what they would be getting into. Recently? Not so much. Which is why it came back down to that same "clique" some of you are complaining about. Because if it weren't for that clique, it's likely there wouldn't have been anything after 2003. Seriously. I put together a bid for 2004 when I was assured I could have these people in my staff. There was no other bid than mine. If there hadn't been a 2004 Gathering, would there have been a 2005? What about the following years?

Susan, who chaired the Gathering in Evanston, was COMPLETELY NEW to the fandom and to Gargoyles when she ended up with the job. Is she "Inner Circle" now? Hell yeah. She fit with us. We hit it off. We became friends. End of story.

Some people fit, some people clash. Some people try to make things work, some people whine and bitch because they don't get their way, and some people simply decide that this is not a fight worth fighting, and go find other people with whom they fit.

The fact of the matter remains that without attendance, the Gathering is just one big expensive party too few people pay for. Would a hiatus work? Can a comeback be made? Maybe. Depends on if the people who keep saying "maybe next year" year after year after year, actually change their tune to "definitely this year". Until then... guys, this is the last Gathering in the foreseeable future. If you can make the effort to come, if you can scrounge up the money, if you can afford to get in debt for the amount of a plane ticket, a hotel room and some food, just come, okay? It's sad that it's over (for now, maybe), but it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom.

I mean, come on, Marina Sirtis is gonna be there. In all the venom, we seem to have lost sight of that bit of awesomeness.

wow, looks like I *did* actually have stuff to add...

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois
I kick ass and take names.

Last post for the night:

Siryn and others: sorry, I might have overreacted some.
Thanks for clearing most of it up Siryn. Just so you know, I was trying not to be biased and just basing my observations from the comments. I probably did come off as biased though. I was treated badly by a clique of kids while growing up so I get a little touchy when a subject like that comes up-but I really have nothing against anyone in this comment room. It sounds like you guys do a great job every year. I wish I could be a part of a great group like yours, I really do. But I also think that people should be a little more conscious of how they treat others in here, particularly newcomers. I really hope some of those that came out of the woodwork today will stick around.


Well, if anything good has come of this, it's that a lot of opinions on both the fandom and the Gatherings have been collected into one spot.

Let's see what we have:

- Actions of the members of the fandom affect others interested or in the fandom.
- Attitude changes are needed to a lot of portions of the fandom, complete with the removal of "Elitism".

- Guests do not make the gathering
- Staffers want more respect
- Goers want more input
- People willing to donate their time need to be accepted, not denied
- Attitude changes (see: "Fandom")
- More money
- Suggestion of Bi-Yearly gatherings to keep down burnout and loss of expenses.

Siryn> It should be pointed out that a lot of people live too far from each other that are in the fandom, and they used the Gathering as chances to see one another, even if just for a weekend. So in that aspect, the "reunion" idea is fully true. HOWEVER, there are some people that come there to see the guests. Somewhere in there is a middle ground that could/should be located and used.

Weisman has said he'd go to any Gathering. Ok, now add in a revolving list of guests (limit to one, maybe two, depending on money demands) and fill the rest with activities and fun stupid stuff, and keep it to smaller places or areas where everything is more affordable (Texas, Williamsburg, etc.) as opposed to places where you gotta save for 5 years to spend two days (LA, NYC, etc.), with great local international airports (for the foreigners).

.............. just sayin.....

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Siryn: ...you know what, I'll just email you.

Wow. This is my second brush with "celebrity" but the only time I've argued with one. THAT'S kind of unusual. The first time I had a literal brush with celebrity...that is I -literally- walked into Kevin Smith at Comic-Con. Whoops!
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Gahhh I swear I'll stop posting soon. I have insomia again... (responding in the comment room probably isn't helping either?)

>>That's assuming that the special guests are the prime motivating factor in people's choice to attend, or not attend, the Gathering. People used to refer to the con as more of a reunion than anything, a chance to get together and talk with your friends and fellow fans in a fun and relaxed atmosphere. You had the panels and events for structure, but most people would be just as happy sitting in the lobby talking about any and every topic, Gargoyles-centric or not, until 2am.

I completely agree with this Lynati! :) I went to a horror convention recently that had guests, a dBut! The above is a COMPLETE rarity. Most cons _are_ about guests. Dealers room, two panels (at most) and a screening room. That's IT! @.@;; Most of the con was in ONE large room, and they had larger crowds in one day then any Gathering for a full weekend? I'm not saying that the activities you mentioned aren't important... but honestly. Why go to the Gathering to socialize?... Why not.. just grab all your best buddies and plan to have a meet up? Why use the Gathering solely for that method of communication? Doesn't it also add to the issue (as you previously mentioned) it's hard for new people to come to the gathering, because people are focusing more on the socialization aspect of the convention rather than the convention aspect? (Not saying you cannot have both. Just yeah. O.o)

Maybe its just.... like you mentioned, the fandom, and everyone as a whole may need to sit down and rethink what the Gathering means to them and if there is anything that can be done, maybe address stuff? (I don't know.. I guess I sound really childish and 'grass is greener' right now)

Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

Your post was the only one that bugged me, Greg. It was kind of irritating to have you, of all people, come swooping in to defend your friends, the very friends who I've seen cause pain to others. How come you weren't conveniently around to defend other people who needed it? Man I sure wish you were there when me and my friends were getting kicked while WE were down.

I've had no other "hackles," either before, or since. So my statement was pretty accurate.

As for kicking people while they were down, well, I guess I did. And I honestly didn't think about it. It never occurred to me. So I guess that was pretty thoughtless. I guess I'm just used to the forum format and insta-response.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

ok time to sleep ** POOOF****
Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

That's exactly my point, Todd. You write something. It pisses me off. I write something. It pisses you off. You write something else, it pisses me off even more. No one here is being entirely civil - including me. You say, you're not angry in one post, then admit your hackles were raised in another.

Me, I'll admit I'm ticked off. VERY ticked off, frankly. But I'll cop to my part in the mess. (I ALWAYS regret posting here.)

Maybe, since you're so big on people admitting their missteps, you could cop to your part too. Acknowledge that you've been harping on people who are down. Maybe even cut them some slack.

Greg Weisman

hopes my last comment didnt insult anyone. Ive avoid s8 for that reason and since people are now talking about that problem I had to say something. Otherwise The gathering staff works hard each year and im sad that its going bye bye but i mean Money is money dude if your loosing money shut it down.
Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

Leo & Nick> I'm glad you two enjoyed yourselves at the con at least. <:) I know there's a lot of 'If only's' I would have loved to corrected, but thanks for telling me you guys enjoyed yourselves.

>>Siryn: sorry for aggravating you by being poor, and pretty much owning nothing to my name and having emotional and social and self-destructive disorders that prevent me from getting jobs-I promise to never get it in my head to hope to go to a Gathering one day or to have anything to look forward to in my pathetic life. Sorry.

Oys! :) You personally do not aggrevate me! I find your posts a little confusing and I'm trying to understand your point of view etc, but you are not aggrevating me. I think one comment is OK. Just think of it copy and pasted... and its by the same people again year after year? It gets to be a lot. <:) it would take down anyone's mood.

Please don't overreact. :) You know I meant nothing of the sort like the above in my post. You CAN do stuff! I know you can! I've been down. I've been to the point where I could barely make rent, running around college, and eating only ramen. I still found a way to save and get to the con. If you can't afford it, you can't. That's OK. And that's what I said in my post. Your proirity is focusing on improving yourself and getting your fiances in order. That's OK. <:) It's OK to put that above the Gathering if you have to. As I was saying, I was generalizing. That I've observed from a LOT of people saying this when they CAN have the means to make it.

But I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way. I'm not trying to attack anyone here honestly. It's just frustrating to hear honestly. :) But think of it this way, it's similar as you and others are saying 'it's frustrating to hear this is the last gathering?' Do I think badly of you as a person for saying it? No. I just am tired of it as an excuse. <:) Not bearing any personal grudge or hatred or OMG SHUTUP HOW CAN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT RAWR! (completely joking there <---) against the person who may or may not be saying it
<:) Hope that clarifies?

Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

Actually, I can't think of anyone I idolize. Weird.

I can think of plenty of people I ADMIRE. Hmm.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Since everyone else has decided to post something and the ranting and sniping and all the other bullcrap is flying about freely, I just want to say a few things:

1 - I have helped to run a few Gatherings and have led events at them (MAui, if you're out there, we need to kick some tail again...) I know how much effort it takes to run a convention, even a small one like The Gathering. To the main folks who have helped keep these conventions going: THANK YOU. Thank you for the sacrifice of time, money, sanity, and to some extent your well being for putting these events together. It's a hard, long, thankless job...which should be shown appreciation for. Frankly, if I could plunk down several hundred dollars to put out the same spread I did in Montreal, I would do that, and then some...you guys and gals DESERVE that appreciation. I might not agree with some of you, and I might not necessarily like a few of you...but the respect and acknowledgment of the efforts you have shown should be made.

So again, to anyone who has contributed to a Gathering Staff: Jen, Karine, Siryn, Lynati, Chris, Dakota Angie, Hutch, Hudson, Talyesin, Kaylee, BrooklynX, Kythera, Cindy-Sis, Bishansky...EVERYONE....THANK YOU for everything.

2 - The Gathering needs at least a year to regroup, and everyone who still gives a darn about this fandom should be a part of helping it get back to its taloned feet again. I've seen groups, clans, cliques, gangs, rookeries...and bunches of other cells of people form over the years...there have been friendships forged, rivalries formed, and enemies made of. I know a lot of these emotional and mental wounds run deep....and there is finger pointing and yelling flying around everywhere it seems.

The economy sucking badly doesn't help the problem either...it just adds to the stress.

I think during the time The Gathering is on hiatus we ALL just regroup, try to heal some of these wounds at least to the point where the bulk of us can cooperate in the effort of repairing our fandom, and quite possibly, in 2011, we may have enough stability to bring back The Gathering.

But for now...I think it's time for The Gathering to take a much-needed break and catch its breath. How many Gathering Staff members have done this convention for how many years in a row? That HAS to take it's toll.

3 - Given the information that I have seen, I do NOT fault this year's Gathering Staff for supposedly "Dropping the Bomb". I believe they told the fandom in general when they knew for a fact that The Gathering was just not financially sustainable anymore. I think by telling us all now and not say...waiting until the next to last day of the convention itself, shows a certain degree of class. Did the announcement piss a lot of people off? Well, look at how hot this comment room is now. As for me, I'm sad to hear the news, and I know I won't be able to go; too many financial issues and uncertainties at this time. God knows I'd love to attend, but household issues and health issues come first.

4 - Finally, about all of the negative comments and crap...I understand emotions have run high, and believe me, I could probably join in with one snipe or another...but frankly, I don't like doing that...I've been crappered on all through most of my life, don't want to do that to anyone else.

So, here is what I take from it:

This Gargoyles Fandom is the only fandom I've been active in...and the reason of that is it feels more like an extended family than my own flesh and blood. It's still a dysfunctional family in many ways, but all things considered, I can still say I love you guys and dolls to one extent or another.

**Points to a certain yellow gargoyle and smirks**

Karine, YOU are responsible for this: if it weren't for you responding to that random compliment e-mail some 13 1/2 years ago, I would have never gotten involved in this whole mess (I use that term with love and respect) in the first place....this led to a lot of good things, and ultimately saved my life...for you introduced me to the first community that actually ACCEPTED me for who I am...and despite everything that has happened...I still like and respect you greatly for bringing me in. So thank you very much.

From Karine I met many others...from MAui...Siren and Siryn, Kya White Sapphire, A Fan (yes, I still kinda half-like you), Lynati, Shara, Spike, CrzyDemona, Stephen Sobotka, Nick, Bishansky, Beedoo!, Robert, Arno, Hudson, Chris, Kess, Angie, Malibu Nylkoorb, Swift, Kaylee, Ginnonami, King Cobra, Xander, Kaelyan, BrooklnX, Ithica, Irial, Renee, Spotweld, Ninane, Ariel, Karlyl, Damocles, THE Christine Morgan, Norcumi, Eden, and probably hundreds of others.

EVERY ONE I mentioned and more has affected me in a positive way somehow...if not anything else, I was able to have nice, intelligent, and sometimes heated conversations with.

So...bottom line, I think there are still a lot of good people out there, and I hope that once the dusts settles, we can work to rebuild things and re-form the community...a "Gargoyles Universe" if you will, that will be all the better for this whole experience.

Does it sound painfully, optimistic...it probably does, but hope has led to some great things happening, so maybe it will start working this time around.

Well, I was hoping to keep this short...given how I write, this IS short...take it for what you will. I hope it brings some things into perspective...and I'm always about if needed.

Dream Well, Good Night, and Get Better.

Brother Abram.

Abram WinterSmith - [brotherabram at gmail dot com]
"Sometimes, it's good to simply get back to the basics..."

Oh and as I commented, the -timing- well...all I can say is I tried to address this issue back in 2004 and 2005 and it fell on deaf ears. What can I say. I can only hope things improve going forward.

I should really be in bed...I'm about to shut this whole thing down and lose all my work because I can't take this much longer.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Greg Weisman> You have to be honest with yourself. Ive seen you come in here when people are being very drama filled toward someone new to the fandom etc........ this drops people from wanting to join a fandom or even continue onward to a convention. If the people are mean in a chat why would you wanna go to a convention.... am i right at some point? I belive this should have been handled 3 years ago to help promote the show more. Then maybe the attendence level would have started to grow a bit. But who knows. New blood and all that brings new members.
Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

**Plops down on the CR couch**

Well, if mentioning Greg's ramble on EQUIVOCATION yesterday didn't start a conversation, declaring the last Gathering will d:


That's just two MORE cents from me, as I already declared way back before, um, all that (**points down**) I would be attending this Gathering, and having been wanting to do so since 2005.

Everything else has been said already (or will be said, whatever), but personally I've been visiting the CR going on three years now (and I was visiting Ask Greg and reading Greg's responses since 2003). Lot's of scruffles and bickering and shouting here and there, and I've (for the most part) tended to watch on the outside in those moments, preferring not to add fuel to the fire. In my personal experience, despite the occasional bicker, I've really enjoyed my time here, even when I do not know ANYONE here in a real-life and intimate way. I don't have a high contributing level in this CR, but I've always enjoyed reading other people's posts in whatever discussion that we had in any random week. It's the nature of the room . . . or something. Is my inaction over the years responsible for anything and everything that's been said **points down again**. Probably. More than likely. Whatever.

I don't want to appear like I'm not taking anyone's post here seriously or someone's rebuttal with respect. Cause I've read every single one so far (even opening a new tab and refreshing so I can see what's being posted as I type this freakin' long thing). It's just that - despite my posting this - I hope not to add *too* much fuel to this fire. I don't believe I've ever picked a fight here with anyone in here and I don't think I will anytime soon, so I do honestly believe I at least didn't make it worse ;)

Siryn: "Honestly, is the words 'this is the last gathering', the only motivation enough for people to want to come? :( It would be the same awesome convention even if it wasn't the last."

I for one am DEFINITELY a culprit of the 'I'd love to go, but finances, time, blah blah . . . maybe next year' But this past year, having initiated my dorm mate into Gargoyles AND the Spectacular Spider-Man AND having heard in was in Los Angeles (where we currently attend school), there has been some serious thought and money-saving going in. I won't deny that today's announcement compelled me to sign up quicker than, say, the night before pre-registration ends, (because it TOTALLY did) but yes, I'm going to the Gathering this year -- one more pay check and systems will all be a go :)

Count me as someone who's excited about the TSS-M cast and crew AS MUCH as those from Gargoyles. Me and my dorm mate will both be attending (both of us for the first time too), and all things considered, we're both pretty darn excited.

Like I said earlier today, its just a matter if I can afford the Trades and TSS-M DVD in time so I can blitz for autographs . . . I know I'll be bringing my first Trade and Gargoyles DVDs :)

As Landon and Matt have pointed out, this is a hefty setback, but its not the end of Gargoyles. The fandom hasn't survived for over a decade just die right now. :)

To the Con Staff: Thanks for all of your work you've put in over the years. I hope to thank the bulk of you in person before the summer is over.

To all folks here, new, old, and so-so: All things considered, I enjoy the live CR room. Even if you've felt mistreated in whatever respect, I'd love to see some discussion in this room on a regular basis again. Seriously. Check the recent archives . . . the weeks have been DULL, and I'm sorry for those that have been trying to make discussion in here because I'm such a lousy and unreliable contributer (though I'm always reading). If you ultimately choose not to come back, that's fine with me too. I just wanted to throw out that one request from a guy with *just* enough time on his hands that he likes a weekly and hearty Gargoyles discussion :)

Hmmm . . . that seemed like fifteen cents. Anyone got change for a quarter?

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Greg> I should have clarified. I meant you don't know what you're talking about with regard to MY personal experiences. I felt MY hackles rise when you dismissed my comments...of which you have no knowledge. This is the first you've ever heard of me. You couldn't possibly know how I was treated (and plenty of others) because you weren't there to observe it. If you require further clarification, feel free to e-mail me.

For the record, I can't believe I'm still here...I can't believe a program I'm running won't shut down. Now THIS makes me angry. I've "End Now"'d like...15 times.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Flanker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how am i gonna see you guys now *pouts*
Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]


Todd B., when you say to me: "Greg, with all due respect, you really don't know what you're talking about", I think it's fair to say that you're not granting me any due respect whatsoever. So this notion that you've been entirely civil, isn't quite the whole story. PERSONALLY, I felt my hackles rise reading that statement. And by the way, I'm REALLY fine with not being idolized. (Though I do find it quite flattering to not be idolized alongside Alan Moore, so thanks for that.)

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But I have been intimately following this fandom (warts and all) for nearly 15 years. I've seen lots of bad behavior. Not on one side. Not on BOTH sides (as if there are only two sides), but all over the goddamn place. I've seen TONS of over-reacting. I've tried to play peacemaker over and over. (Mostly, I failed at that. Sometimes failed SPECTACULARLY, making the situation even worse.) I've tried to call people to the carpet when they've behaved particularly badly. And I've done that MORE often when the offenders were my close friends, because - frankly - I knew they'd forgive me. So here I go again...

Greg Bishansky - THAT LINK?! REALLY?!! Do you honestly think that was an appropriate response?

Jen - Sinking to someone else's level does not become you. Trust me.

Weisman - Yeah, the put up or shut up argument doesn't totally wash.

But it's not totally invalid either. Because of, you know, all the bitchin'.

I'm the first to admit that I'm rising to the defense of my friends, but it does seem to me that a few select people are coming out of the woodwork to kick them when they're down. And they are down. No one's happy about this being the last Gathering.

Yes, Todd, Nick, Lynati, there's some truth to (some of) what you're saying -- though I think you're only seeing one side of things. But even if you're 100 per cent right, the timing and the insistence and the constant reiteration at this point in time is... in my opinion... kinda just uncool. It's kinda hurtful. And for people who are making SUCH a big deal over hurtful behavior, perhaps you can see why it's being greeted in the way it is.

Greg Weisman

Well this is a huge bummer. I feel a sense of loss and regret, about past cons I couldn't attend and the future that won't be. I am also hit with a feeling of guilt. I am one of the waves of lazy fans that enjoyed my little gargoyles christmas once a year but did little to contribute back. One time I looked at hosting, just a couple days of talking to hotel managers and the initial planning phases were staggering. I have shared rooms with con staff in the past and seen how hard they work. I hope I've made it clear at the cons I've attended how much I appreciate the dedication of the staff. I didn't think there was so much personal financial investment. Well, if the stars line up I'll get one more sweet ride this year and keep my fingers crossed for next.

jade griffen> Ive never seen an asian ladies boobs but ill keep that in mind if I do. I mean anime expo is 2 weekends from now ;-P
Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

Siryn> The 2002 con was my first con. Even though there were only the two Gregs as guests, I haven't seen a bigger dealers room with as much merchandise for sale at any of the cons since. (I think they were still auctioning stuff from that action figure pile at 2004) I thought that was a well organized convention (even considering the maccaroni paste and hotdog dinner :-P) I think if there is to be another con it would be something similar in scope.

>>The people who run the Gathering get together on their own and decide last minute that this will be the last.

It was not decided last minute. At all. As I have mentioned, as others have mentioned we exhausted _every_single_alternative...and option. No one on staff really wanted to decide this. But it was decided that this is the last 'the group' was going to work on. No one else put forward bids. NONE. Nadda.

With no one stepping forward to want to take up the mantle, who else is supposed to put this together? That's what I'm not sure I understand from your argument? From my personal point of view, you're contradicting youself here?

>>They just realized that they are losing money and there won't be enough to support another Gathering next year.

No... this honestly isn't the reason. <:) Cons being in the red or the black have less to do with a con going on next year. It has more to do with staff being willing to work (without pay) and put their own finances/energy toward supporting a gathering. There have been cons in the RED (ie in debt) and we still had gathering's after that.

>>People are annoyed because they feel left out of the loop.
I completely agree with this.

>>Especially people who have tried to join the staff in the past and felt like they were treated with disdain.

I really can't comment on this because I'm personally not aware of this occurring? I will say again that no bids were put forward, no one came forward to say 'hey! I want to try next year'.

>>Maybe if the staff had come out sooner requesting help from others not of their circle, something could have been done.

There are newsletters, the forum, and the website. Constantly calling for bids, constant reminders, staff even posts here. If you have any suggestions on *HOW* to ask people to put forward bids could have been done, please, I am asking you, to let people know. HOW do you personally think we could up registration? Or even contributions to the con? (this is honestly not being malicious at all. Just that you are making a lot of statements of observations... which everyone else is making.. but the true POINT of all this is no one (for everyone saying 'take my suggestions/ideas', is putting forth any right now? :/)

>>But they're the Powers That Be, so what they say goes, and no one else has any say in the matter except to start their own Gathering from scratch, which leads me to...

All that has been said is that the current staff of people have decided that this is the last one they're working on and won't be able to do it this year. The reason why it's the last, is again, no one put any bids forward, everyone is tired from working on mutiple gatherings and being on multiple staffs... and other people taking up the call to help one year and then bailing. (Again, I don't personally know about the refusing to help bit.. that seems odd to me, but again, I don't know the circumstances behind that).

>>I really don't think it's fair that some on here, even Greg W., are telling people to start their own Gathering. um, no. The con is already established. You can't just expect people who have no clue how to run a convention to start one up and get a lot of attendees, guests, etc...

OK. But can you expect the same group of people to organize, work, and pull together the same event year after year? When being accused of not helping, or being cliquish? Is it too selfish to ask for a break too? :/ The con is established because there's a group of people who have been dedicated to working on the con again and again. Giving up free time, resources and parts of their lives to plan this event. Its unfair on one hand to say 'how dare you make a decision that impacts us all... and add... how dare you think we can do this without you?' It seems... odd to me? :/

>>Do you really think guests will come to some random fan's convention? Doubt it.

Greg came to the first one. <:) That was a leap of faith. And that was only organized by 1 person, with 75 people attending.

>>Even if a newcomer does want to start a new con, they need some guidance, and it doesn't sound like the staffers have interest in giving any.

Not true! <:) Quite the opposite honestly. Just know we're human too, some of us have families, or are starting families. We have careers, and other obligations outside of the fandom. But I don't think anyone here would necessarily leave any newbie hanging. <:) Please don't walk away with that impression at all!

(PS. I hope I didn't come off as mean sounding at all here. O.o;; )

Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

For anyone thats interested I intend to get the webcomic going agian. If your itnerested in helping just slap me an email.

Shara - [jeanie54_2000 at yahoo dot com]

I think for my brother's birthday I am going to get him all 3 gargoyles trades. For Christmas, I can get the seasons for my brother and his wife as a collective gift. For my eldest nephew's birthday, I will get him all 3 trades. For Christmas, I shall get my nephews (from the same parent) a collective gift of season one and two. Yeah the other two nephews are under 5 but they will grow into the show.

I guess I should order all that before it all comes out.

Every little bit counts right?

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

"I think it's just at this point, you have a convention with a LOT of the main cast... and this fandom can't scrounge up enough of the normal numbers?"

That's assuming that the special guests are the prime motivating factor in people's choice to attend, or not attend, the Gathering. People used to refer to the con as more of a reunion than anything, a chance to get together and talk with your friends and fellow fans in a fun and relaxed atmosphere. You had the panels and events for structure, but most people would be just as happy sitting in the lobby talking about any and every topic, Gargoyles-centric or not, until 2am.


Siryn: sorry for aggravating you by being poor, and pretty much owning nothing to my name and having emotional and social and self-destructive disorders that prevent me from getting jobs-I promise to never get it in my head to hope to go to a Gathering one day or to have anything to look forward to in my pathetic life. Sorry.

Asmadi> Thanks for coming out and saying so.

And hey, my last sarcastic comment was at 11:29:53 pm EDT. ; ) any subsequent comments that appeared to be sarcastic weren't. ; )

Okay I'm GONE GONE GONE! >__<!!!

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

I've never been to a Gathering. And I don't know if I'll be able to make it to the last one, so I can't comment on whether people at Gatherings are rude or if they drive newcomers away.

However, I started posting here at s8 over a year ago and there's been numerous times when I've posted an unpopular opinion and been verbally attacked for it. I've had people gang up on me, attack me personally, speak to me condescendingly and dismissively, blow things out of proportion, jump to ridiculous conclusions about me, and put words in my mouth. I hated it, and I thought it was all totally uncalled for, since being civil, polite, respectful, and understanding is so damn easy. At least it is for me. There were several times I thought I might quit posting here, but I stuck around because I'm stubborn and goddammit I want to talk about Gargoyles.

So, while I haven't personally been to a Gathering and can't comment on whether long-time Gathering attendees and staff members drive people away during the con or not, I do feel that this fandom can sometimes do that. Maybe this has happened at the Gathering too. So, I acknowledge that Todd, Nick, and others *may* have a point.

That said, I really don't see what's the point in squabbling about that now. You can't change the past. Let's focus on what we CAN change. Let's focus on things we can do now to improve sales for the trade paperbacks and possibly have another Gathering someday.


Visiting the CR to post once and only once, in response to Greg W. and others:

The Gathering:
It is sad that this is the last year. I have no interest in conspiracies or blame, let alone the slander about staff or artists. The money problem is plenty of explanation. I have nothing to say about how the con was run because I never went.
The Gathering may have contributed to keeping Gargoyles (more or less) in Disney's awareness, but whether it did or not, putting on a convention is a ton of work and for their dedication, the constaff deserve some praise.
Hopefully, in the future a new convention can happen.

I never attended or put up a bid... why? I could never afford to. If the convention had ever been held in my home city, during the summer, I would have tried to attend. But I've never had the time, money, or organizational skills necessary to staff a con myself. I'd be a bad staffer, too: I'm a disorganized procrastinator. I wish I had the money to contribute to this and all sorts of other causes, but I just don't. I'm unemployed.

HOWEVER, separately from the Gathering, I want to add my support to what Todd has been saying. This comment room is NOT always civil or welcoming. I felt driven out of station 8. In my case I know I made some mistakes and part of the fault is mine, but NOT all of it. I wasn't always treated with respect. Sure I have faults and bad days and occasional panic attacks, but I'd like to think that I'm not a horrible, bad person and that I often had something worthwhile to contribute... however, I felt that I was not wanted. There were many times I felt very distinctly unwelcome in the CR because of things that were said to me, or afraid to post because of the way somebody else was treated. At times, any disagreement, even perfectly reasonable disagreement, provoked very snide or unkind comments in this room. Other times, if a person could not afford to buy a book or product, they were condemned by others as disloyal fans -- for not having money! Things have been said, to me and to others, that were very hurtful and undeserved. Words can cause real pain. Yes, some people have thick skins and little bothers them, but thick-skinned people should not be the only ones who are welcome. Towards the end, I decided that even if the Gathering happened in my hometown, I would not go. I did not enjoy spending time talking to the people in the Comment Room, so I would not enjoy spending time with the same people in person.

Think about how this looks to brand-new people, who are only sort-of casual fans, who come to s8, walk in on some flamefest or get a nasty snark lobbed in their direction, and leave before they learn about the comics or DVDs? Hypothetical, perhaps, but think about it. A fandom that needs to grow cannot afford to alienate people.

Todd > I know where you're coming from because I'm in the same boat. I don't think there was anything wrong with your first post, but some of your recent posts have gotten snarky or sarcastic. I don't blame you for being angry, but sarcasm just makes lowers the discourse and it easier for people to ignore your points.

Vaevictis Asmadi

Kyt> Yes... I am a hopeless optimist. :)
King Cobra> I shall email you shortly. Um... I actually have two calendars filled with things to do in my personal life. One is dry erase cuz I go thru stuff so fast! I'll em ya right now.

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Shara> Oh, very much so! You, too, huh? Have you ever had an Asian woman come up to you and say "Your boobs are so big!" and grab them? It's happened twice... Strange. They don't look that big to me!
Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

All right. I'm done for. I'm super tired. If anyone wants to keep arguing with me, that's cool. You have my e-mail. I'm always open for discussion. If anyone wants my IM information, I'll be happy to give it via e-mail.

You eternal S8'ers can do what you like with my comments. I'll tell you guys what I just told one of your buds privately...that my hope is that you all consider what I had to say. I don't plan on being around, so it doesn't make a difference to me what you do with the knowledge. But maybe you could think about my experiences as I related them, and going forward, use them to affect the way you greet new people. I think you can only help yourselves. Maybe things have changed, I don't know. But I can't say I have a lot of faith. So few were willing to listen, and that'd disappointing. =\

Goodnight all.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Has anyone ever noticed that when you dont have a bra on and you run from one side of the house to the other.... your boobs slap together like 2 punching bags?

Is there a psychologist in the room? lol
Okay here's how I see how things stand, coming from an unbiased outsider who's never been to a Gathering and studies some psychology as a hobby.

1. The group that usually puts the Gatherings together are very close knit. They have put many hours of dedication and even money from their own pockets into this. It seems that they have been doing this for so long in a certain way that it's hard to accept new ideas and ways of doing things coming along. Maybe they feel a certain sense of posessiveness, and they also feel they don't get enough appreciation for all they do.

2. On the other hand, when new people come along to throw out their own ideas, maybe they are not really taken seriously. Maybe they are treated with some rudeness. I think these people have some legitimate gripes, since I've never seen a few of them they obviously didn't feel welcome here. I think maybe a select few people who run the Gatherings do push people away, even if they don't realize they're doing it. Maybe, subconsciously, they feel unappreciated for all the work they have already done, and don't want to risk some new blood coming in and taking the glory.

Now, here's where I think the problem lies and why these people are coming out to complain now:

The people who run the Gathering get together on their own and decide last minute that this will be the last. They just realized that they are losing money and there won't be enough to support another Gathering next year. People are annoyed because they feel left out of the loop. Especially people who have tried to join the staff in the past and felt like they were treated with disdain. Maybe if the staff had come out sooner requesting help from others not of their circle, something could have been done. But they're the Powers That Be, so what they say goes, and no one else has any say in the matter except to start their own Gathering from scratch, which leads me to...

I really don't think it's fair that some on here, even Greg W., are telling people to start their own Gathering. um, no. The con is already established. You can't just expect people who have no clue how to run a convention to start one up and get a lot of attendees, guests, etc... Do you really think guests will come to some random fan's convention? Doubt it. Even if a newcomer does want to start a new con, they need some guidance, and it doesn't sound like the staffers have interest in giving any.

So, this is how I see it. But having said all that, I agree with Matt and Landon. We should be focusing on the trade right now.


Attendance has been 'down' since before there was an economical issue. I think it's just at this point, you have a convention with a LOT of the main cast... and this fandom can't scrounge up enough of the normal numbers?

I mean, try as the con might, (with branching out with spidey, etc...and not just that, last LA con was addressing what Frank Paur had been working on too! So not just 'Greg Worship'. :) ), we haven't been getting larger.

As a staff member and attendee (who has scrimped and saved and plotted to get to 10 out of 13 conventions), I can tell you the most aggrevating sentence is "I can't afford it! Maybe next year. :(" I can COMPLETELY understand money, time, work, other personal obligations getting in the way. It does happen, life happens. But it happens more and more...with more and more fans. Honestly, if it was a priority, you would allocate time and money. (And it's OK if it's not a priority! Sometimes you have to sacrifice things you love to do things that are necessary - i have been learning that lesson a thousand times over this year).

I've always put aside money and tried to make the con a priority. I've given money when I can't make it at all. (like this year.. -_-;; ) Being supportive as a fandom member goes a LONG way. But lately, more and more people seem to talk more than do. (Not that I will ever say I am not guilty of this either, cause I know I am).

Honestly, is the words 'this is the last gathering', the only motivation enough for people to want to come? :( It would be the same awesome convention even if it wasn't the last. And yes, I agree, if people have input on why that is or have suggestions on how to fix that, (besides finger pointing) bring it to the table?

But the ampathy has just increased over the years... A LOT. And honestly, early registrations & supporting registrations help front the money for expenses like booking convention space. (Which is always one of your top expenses at a convention).

So, yes, the economy is also a reason numbers are down, but if it wasn't the economy this year, there would be another reason or excuse. :( (not saying for you purplegoldfish specifically - I am completely generalizing here to explain at least my perspective on the matter. <:) )

It's just the general trend that's been happening. It's frustrating.. and honestly.. I'm not personally sure how to stop it or lesson it? There's always at least one (usually five) people who post here about it every year?

Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

Kythera of Anevern> I still want a chainmail um *makes lude gestures with hands* (smirk)

Jade> "Hey there, King Cobra! That email guy not pretending to be you anymore? I haven't received any emails from him except that one LOL."

Well, that's a relief. I was quite horrified when that perp got in somehow and started spamming people. Glad to see that that seems to be over now. :)

"Where do ya live, dude?"

Central, Ohio. But if there ever were to be a con in Reno, well, I'd have few qualms (fear of heights aside) about flying to it. Or to any other city, for that matter. Despite the aforementioned fear, I'd been wanting any excuse to fly again anyhow.

"As for a con, I doubt I could make a deadline for next year and it will take more story swapping and ppl warning me about expenses before I will stop looking into the possibility but my husband has told me that if we have out-of-pocket expenses, he'll disown me so I gotta be cautious about it"

Well, as fun as the con would be, that would not be worth it, as far as your husband goes.

"But thanks for offering. We have much to discuss..."

No problem. If you feel like chatting, just click on my name to e-mail me. But, then, you probably still have my address anyways.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Jade: You in your optimism with your positive outlook...are awesome. :)
Kythera of Anevern

Kyt> Hi! I think it's going very well:) Actually, I am waiting to see more individuals posting. We have basically two people on each "side" and I'm letting them have at thee if they wish w/o commenting any further myself. I am in no "clique" -- hate that word -- but I have friends on both sides. To my knowledge, I am no one's enemy. I hope not! If ppl can't remember me, I'm the chick in the Belle dress in the pic right below the sign that says "Attend The Convention" when you post in here.

to all> I just want to say my further caution and that it should be everyone else's is that with planning a con on your own without organization and seasoned players (i.e. elder con staffers), you run certain risks. Taking money a year in advance is a year long commitment, at least. And a lot of trust and faith. You have to deal with people renegotiating, lying, thieving... I think that's the worst of it. Aside from accusations. These are the BAD things that can happen. These are the things I need to understand and foresee (if that is possible) in order to have a hope of running a con of my own. As I said, these are the things I am starting to consider, and I am not afraid, but one must tred lightly on the back of this dragon if you wish it to soar gracefully.

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Ok sorry if im upseting anyone here.

This is why I dont come to s8 anymore. I love gargoyles. I am 30 years old now, however I avoid DRAMA with a passion ever since my last job with bitchy empolyees.

There is alot of drama in this room. Be it an argument over demonas boobs being bigger then elisas, or who's loin cloth is more brown. There is always some sort of debate and drama in this room.

Lets go back to the 90's when we all were in high school or college and used this room as a means for friendship and fun. Now think on that. ......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................are you still thinking.....................................................................................................................................................

Did you find any drama.? If you did it was from someone blaming someone for farting in the chat room agian.;P

Point is this

in the 90's there was no drama in s8 (least that i know of) It was a fun gargoyle fan gathering. I think everyone has forgotten what the gathering is and stands for. Its not greg weisman, its not people that run it, Its fans and the things we all enjoy coming together and chatting.

Right now everyone in here is so full of drama that its not fun.

Enjoy the last gathering and just let the he said she said drama go.

I also understand where the gathering staff is coming from. I created a little site called the gargoyle webcomic If anyone remembers. Http://www.ka-blamo.com/gargs we turned the fan fiction into comics. Well guess what it cost money to pay artists to do that. Guess what economy goes KA boom and our main funds went flush. So we have not been able to put any artwork up in awhile. I tend to keep the site going when the ECONOMY gets better. However a convention takes more time and money.

anyways there is my two cents.


Todd> Ah, that was a joke?

Did NOT pick up on that. Probably b/c I was not/still not in a joking mood.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Nick: I had power in everything? That's news to me. And yeah, I can be harsh. I recognize that I've been pretty hard in the past, and I very well may still be in the future. That's a helluva grudge, though... I honestly don't remember speaking with you in the past at all. I am sorry, but that's the truth, and I freely admit it.

Purplegoldfish: Full disclosure: I am not con staff. That said... My intention was not to sound superior, but I do take offense at being called a loser whose life is meaningless, and reserve the right to rise to my own defense on that by citing some tangible accomplishments that I'm proud of. I think I've done alright for myself, which is the point I was trying to make.

As to the rest of my comments, there's a lot of negativity being thrown around, and I'd rather focus on the positive. For me, that includes happy memories that I absolutely would not have had without the Gathering. I am grateful for each and every one. And I do think it's worth pointing out that for all of the criticism being bandied around, there hasn't been much attempt to take it in a more positive, constructive direction.

I dunno. Maybe it's too soon for that. Maybe folks need to get all of the hurt out of their systems, first.

Kythera of Anevern

King Cobra> ...You must be joking. I'm completely calm, and I was joking about the Irish thing too. I totally thought you were joking.

You're the only one who thinks I'm flipping out.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Bishansky> Furthermore, considering the amount of utter hate being directed... maybe that should ring a bell that something is/was wrong if it's warranting that type of reaction.
"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Todd> "But King Cobra, it's what we DO. ;)"

And I'm not denying that. I'm just saying to take a deep breath and try to respond in a sensible, rational manner. There are people here I don't really like either, but I'm not going to flat out get in a bitch-flane against them.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Hey there, King Cobra! That email guy not pretending to be you anymore? I haven't received any emails from him except that one LOL.

As for a con, I doubt I could make a deadline for next year and it will take more story swapping and ppl warning me about expenses before I will stop looking into the possibility but my husband has told me that if we have out-of-pocket expenses, he'll disown me so I gotta be cautious about it -- I feel that most money casualties might be the result of planning errors but what do I know. Never done a con before! I've been middle management and not full-on BOSS LADY. Where do ya live, dude? I have a whole bound notebook I'm filling with notes and such to put on a con. Reno is a GREAT place for it. Cheap, not too hot, lots of outdoors stuff and art such. We are a tiny city but still a city. International airport, Burning Man, Valhallah Renn Faire, Lake Tahoe, skiing (which our winter season is actually Nov. - Feb. or even March), water park, big hotel/casinos, many theaters and theatres (for acting, yes), museums, parks... We are fun! Can we get guests to come? Not sure. Fans? Probably. I can even drive some out of the woodworks. I was coming up with possible revenue ideas in my head but have not presented them yet. Just so many possibilities. Yet I have to be cautious. Not many can afford to have a con fail and money drown them. I am not spared that. I am NOT rich and I am currently out of work. But thanks for offering. We have much to discuss...

Jade Griffin - [jade_griffin at hotmail dot com]
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Bishansky> I haven't gone back to say what was lies and what wasn't. Nor will I. I think it's best left to interpetation by all parties before things stop being left to interpetation and start getting left to the technophiles to figure out, and feelings -REALLY- start getting hurt.
"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

PURPLEGOLDFISH> How should we have handled it? Honestly, we didn't know this was the case until a few days ago. So, we wanted to pair it up with some good news, that Marina Sirtis is coming. Good news and bad news and all that.

We've been trying very hard to make a 2010 happen. We wanted it to happen. I'd have staffed it again also.

But, like I said, cold, hard unsympathetic numbers.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I honestly can't think of a better way it could have been handled.

Maybe there was no right way to handle this. We did the best we could at the time, given the circumstances.

Yes, we expected flack, but by no means did we expect the complete and utter hate, and downright lies in Nick's opening post.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that�¢ï¿½ï¿½s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it�¢ï¿½ï¿½s nothing. It�¢ï¿½ï¿½s just bibble-babble. It�¢ï¿½ï¿½s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks." -Harlan Ellison

But King Cobra, it's what we DO. ;)
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Yankees suck. Jeter's a joke. A-Rod needs a kick in the nuts. Steinbrenner needs to die or get the IRS to look at him.

You asked. ;)

*is a Cubs fan* ;)

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper


Todd> "Hell yeah. No one can actually STOP me, short of banning me. ;) But that doesn't mean I won't point out when someone TRIES. ;) It's probably because I'm Irish. No one can REALLY shut us up."

Not to add fuel to the fire, but try to simmer down a bit, okay? I'm Irish, too. Comments like that is making us look bad.

Jade> I'd volunteer to help with that Gathering you mentioned if it's still going to pan out. If it is, I don't really have $$$ to spend, but what can I do for freelance to help?

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

I certainly don't like being coddled, Jen. It's one of my least favorite things on this earth.

But when I first discovered that there was a whole site devoted to my favorite show, and I was all young and naive and super excited and couldn't WAIT to talk to people about gargoyles...imagine how my spirits were crushed when I experienced just...outright MEANNESS. I'm sorry you don't like to think that could have happened. Hey, maybe you weren't there. I don't know. I don't remember. But it did happen. On more than one occasion. And it was uncalled for. I refuse to back down from what I know to be true. I know what was said and done to me, and I saw it happen to others. Apparently I'm not the only one because you can see some other people posted down there in agreement.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Gotta be honest Kythera, I don't even know you and that post came off as kind of...superiority complex sounding. I can see where some of these people are coming from. And I think I have the right to complain that this was last notice. Even if you didn't know yourselves till very recently...well, it could have been handled better-and you probably would have gotten more attendees if it was. If people had more notice they might have been able to save up.

You can't tell me you had no clue that the attendance would be down much earlier in the year. I think some people made some mistakes here. Which is fine, we're only human, it happens. But please don't say you were totally right with everything and no one should ever complain.


"that's kind of slanderous" ... actually... if you want actual SLANDER, you look at Nick's first post. THAT is slanderous.

Todd, if you're looking for me to say that me and my staff are cliquish, we are, we have to be. We work as a close team, we have to all get along. We do not ALL get along ALL the time. Just the facts of a work environment.

If you are looking for me to say that because of that, we don't allow new people to play with us? You're wrong, flat OUT wrong. We would have run out of staff members years ago if new people didn't fall into place.

If you are looking for me to say that we made you feel bad because we didn't coddle you, then you're probably right and I'm not sorry for it. I have 4 kids of my own and a job and a house and a convention. I don't want to baby you, I just want to get my job done and put on a great convention. Your happiness is your own to find. Not mine to deliver to you.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I would appreciate it if one person on this boat would not assume I'm an evil, lecherous hump." - Malcom Reynolds, FIREFLY

Kyth> I took you to task because, quite frankly, to everyone who I've talked to that's dealt with you, you've been a bitch. INCLUDING to me, and I don't even do art! And when they've had to deal with you, it was when you had power in everything. And just like everyone still bitches about Bush being president, there ya go. So congrats on your Corel-whatever. Hope it makes you happy. Frankly, I couldn't care less.

Siryn> And that Williamsburg con was FUN. And I remember the call going over the walkie talkie about it being in the black. It was Saturday night, and I think me and a couple other staffers were talking about it while a buncha stuff was going on. Yeah, there were parts of '02 that sucked, but for the most part, it was a fun "little" con. I mean, not every con can be Katsucon or Otakon(SP?) and I enjoyed that con because it wasn't Katsu or Ota. As for when we had that convo about how cons drew... I wanna say it was in s8 maybe a week or so after the convention. It was either then or around when I was showing y'all on the map to take 64-to-295-to-64-to-81 to get back to New York. Then again it was, as quite a few poeple have taken the time to point out, 7 years ago.

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Amp> Thanks.

I guess that's the best I'll get.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Todd, hereby formally acknowledge that Jennifer made personal attacks upon you. I do not condone her actions, even though I believe that may have been provoked.

However, I do not share in your protests that you have not been rude and that your conduct has been entirely civil.

~ My friends call me Amp

I mean dang all I'm saying was that I personally (and MANY others I know) were not welcomed and in fact were treated pretty badly by some core members of the fandom. Maybe instead of everyone flipping out about it, you guys should think about it going forward to as to improve things, and as people seem to want, open the doors to a new and improved community and even a new Gathering.

You get into dangerous territory when, as de facto leaders, you refuse to consider criticism.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

I'm very proud of my fandom (yes, I mean Gargoyles). I tell everyone about it. I'm very proud of our comic status, and our successful cons. They are all successful in my opinion. They happened! I have been to 7 of them so far and this will be my 8th one. I go for friends, for guests, for the memories I cherish so much.

Um... A while back, Greg Weisman asked us to document our experiences of Gatherings to send en mass to Disney or somat. Where'd those go? I can't find where I put mine and would love to see those con journals again. Are they archived here somewhere? Dunno who maintains this place now but the site looks awesome!

People I never knew liked Gargoyles are coming out of the walls in my hometown here in Reno. I have friends over for D&D or boardgames at least 2 times a week and many of them know and like Gargoyles. They EVEN know about the COMIC!! I was amazed. I didn't have to tell them about it! Even at the local coffee shop a lady saw my shirt (from a garg con years past) and said "Did you know they have a new comic out?" I was ecstatic. That means that we're doing a great job. Hurray, us! For supporting, for buying, for spreading the word, spreading the love. What's not to be proud of?

Jade Griffin
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Kythera> Hear, hear!

I'm saying this now. If another group decides to pick up where we left off, I will be among the first to register. And why? Because I want this to succeed. I don't care who it is, if a new staff is made up of people I would never be friends with or not, I will support this thing.

But, right now, it is what it is.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that�s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it�s nothing. It�s just bibble-babble. It�s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks." -Harlan Ellison

Amp> To be technical, I set the stage for it to start. Granted, going back and looking over what I said, and everything said since, my post was part Personal Experience/part Hearsay/part opinion. It was answered by Jen, who respionded in an almost psychotic rant starting the challenge, going so far as to say (paraphrasing) that no one needs to know sh*t, misquoting a movie (Harry and Sally screwed in the beginning of that movie and were in a relationship with each other, thus nullifying her point or supporting mine, take your pick), and... well... being Jen. Todd stepped up, and was met with the same that everyone else has been.

Bottom line is: No one wants to see the Gatherings die, but something needs to be done because there's obvious flaws which, so far, can been seen by people not in staff, which are either ignored or are invisible to those who are.

With cliques... it's fair to say you work closely together that yeah, you're probably gonna turn into a clique. And while it's been said it is a clique anyone can join if they work hard at it, there's obviously enough proof here showing that this is one case where that is not possible and has become a detriment to the process (creating a glass ceiling, if you will) as opposed to making a situation where the group works together for the benefit of others (which isn't happening, as proven by dwindling congoer numbers, and the apathy/disdain being shown by quite a few here).

Now... having had some time to think, I do apologize for some of my earliest comments... including a few that were way out of line... and one (Greg ego-feeding) that has been justified by the man in question (although, I'll say, as the one who glomped him without warning back in '02, that hey, I see it from your POV now, and get it, and take away the negative connontation to it). And while I agree the people who put together the Gatherings and whatnot should be applauded for their work, the fact that there is obvious resentment for how they do things from their "target audience/market", and that it's invisible (to put it lightly) to being downright ignored (pretty much what it is) to being taunted (Jennifer's actions) is what it's come down to.

And therein lies the issue.

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Amp> It wasn't true for me because I knew that I'd personally encountered the opposite pf what she said, and knew others had as well. Doesn't make my stating that fact "rudeness." Can't help what I experienced was contrary to what she said. I wasn't rude about stating facts I know to be true. I stated what I knew in a nice way.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

... *sigh*

It's natural to be upset about news like this. It's natural to be angry too...but fighting and deciding to find blame, while maybe also a 'expected' reaction, honestly isn't the answer. (And fundamentally, all this back and forth and apathy is a part of why things are how they are.)

Pointing fingers and saying "It's your fault! No it's YOUR FAULT! But it isn't mine at all!" doesn't work either. (And honestly, this fandom does it sooo much. Why? I never understood that. I'd love to agree to disagree, and sit down and everyone figure out why stuff happens. )

Why is this going to be the last gathering?
At this time, it is being considered the last gathering because the people currently on staff do not have the time, money, nor resources to continue with a gathering for another year. This conclusion came from a few months of trying to figure out a gameplan and TRYING to keep the gathering going to at least year 15. It was with asking for bids that didn't come about at all (until after the deadline and even then, we weren't sure how well this would work out).

Now, someone mentioned waiting a year or two. Awesome idea. That could happen. If someone wants to take on the mantel, plan another one of these after a year or two, go ahead! That would be amazing, and I am sure there will be fans who would support, want to help out, etc. But this decision was made only a few days before we announced it. (So no one was hiding it, promise!) It wasn't an easy decision to make, and it was made based on what has been observed/known. (This is not the first time there have been absolutely NO bids received - just the first time there isn't a way to find a way around that.)

Nick> I don't remember having the conversation mentioned. Not to say it didn't take place. It may have? I talk to a LOT of people at all the conventions... and I like hearing other people's input on stuff... I'm not saying it didn't happen... but I just don't remember (it was like 7 years ago)... @.@;;

I can remember knowing how blissfully happy I was that we WERE in the black, that _rarely_ happens. Although, I can tell you I've learned _a lot_ about the conventions, and money issues since then - from that gathering and others...being on many many different con staffs in different roles. (I also can tell you there is a lot of stuff I regret about the 2002 con, and can tell you that if I had 'stretched out' money...or had just 'broken even'...there would have been less stuff for people to complain about. (And yes, I do remember peps complaining/comparing my poor wittle con! XD It SUCKS. You feel like you 'failed' in some way, even though you KNOW you did the gosh darn BEST you could with the knowledge/skills you had at the time - it still makes me kneejerk).

Conclusion: Every con is a different 'monster' to address. Your location and venue effects your number of guests, what you can and cannot do, it effects your budget, it effects what you can and cannot offer, etc. Guests in LA are *not* an expense issue like they would be in New York, or Williamsburg, or Canada. (So, fyi, spidey guests are not the reason the con is in a threatened 'red' status - at all)

I think it's OK to ask questions and bring out issues to the table, but unless you've sat down and tried to staff one of these things, it is extremely hard to have an objective opinion on what's going on and how money is spent where. I'm not saying people shouldn't speak their minds or give constructive criticism. (And people will anyway regardless of if it is constructive or not).

I think stuff can be addressed and NOT have fingerpointing and placing blame. Cause honestly, I don't think it's so selfish or 'clique-ish' when the main group of people who has constantly been running the con say "hey, we just need to break...or maybe, Hey we just don't want to do this anymore" (because FYI, this isn't the FIRST year there haven't been ANY bids for a next gathering - just the first year none of the staff can honestly obligate themselves for another year's worth of work - financially or otherwise)

Waiting a year or two is an idea... Patrick mentioned, if other people want to try to go for it, I don't think anyone is stopping them? (Or has said as such? ) It's just that no one has stepped up to the plate...

I hear a lot of 'I don't go to the gathering because of so and so'. I can completely understand there people in this world who come off as mean, or you don't like. Surprisingly, there are one or two people in this fandom I would like to drop kick personally... but I don't let them ruin me going to a gathering. I have made a lot of friends through this fandom, something which I am extremely grateful for.

I guess something people could look at is: "This is how I felt alienated left out, maybe in the future, something like THIS could be avoided by: (blank)." (not necessarily 'changing your attitude' but how could you feel comfortable?

I go to anime conventions where I know absolutely NO one...and I still have fun. (I know many people who do that too with other conventions... so I'm not sure how well that argument works, although to be fair that's comparing a large convention versus a small one, but we HAVE had first timers come to the convention and not be in on this fandom.) Maybe I'm an optomist (and horrible speller) ... but trust me, it IS possible to avoid people who make you uncomfortable at a Gathering. (not when you're on staff unfortunately, but when you're an attendee, definately!)

It does always 'hurt' to hear what is wrong with your own convention and I think it's natural to be on the defensive with it. (The worst is being compared to other cons or how other cons did it... cause as I mentioned, each con has their own strengths and limitations). Sometimes because people honestly don't realize you didn't invite a guest because you honestly couldn't afford their airfare, hotel fees, and per diam. (not because you didn't absolutely love them). Sometimes something happened completely out of your control. Sometimes some people are just will not be satisfied no matter what you say or do.

I know that other people not in 'the old guard' have put on great gatherings? As far to my knowledge... those went ok didn't they? There wasn't a 'no no thankyou go away' at new blood there was there? I know I never liked Clan Olympics... but we tried it, and everyone LURVES it! (So I definately know that I'm not always right with stuff?)

If anyone has ideas, talent, wants to put forth stuff, I mean, we do forward those kinds of things to the staff list? Hey, does anyone have ideas for panels? (Not being sarcastic here honestly!) Cause if anyone has some, or wants to host them, why not?

With MGC, honestly, Genn had life obligations before I took over. I then had real life obligations/issues with running the website, and I know Mel has had a lot on her plate too (last time I spoke with her). Life happens... interests change. But that is way offtopic at this point.

Actually... by the time I post this I'm probably like... WAYYY behind with comments. @.@;;

Siryn - [laurean at aol dot com]
If you want something bad enough, you gotta meet God halfway."

Thanks for saying so, Jade.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Todd, your first sentence ("Umm....actually that's really not true") essentially accuses her of being a liar. I find that incredibly rude.
~ My friends call me Amp

Lurker> Actually, I thought Landon posted the request for a roomie. Um... I think that's who it was...

Todd> That is correct. I saw no rudeness in your initial post.

Jade Griffin
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Jade> Im pretty sure the person you are referring to is me.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

WOW, I didn't know we artists had that much power and control of the fandom, Nick.

And thanks for letting me know that my life sucks. I never would have known, had you not pointed it out. It's not like I wrote a book that just came out a couple of months ago, or have a decent full-time job, do freelance art on the side, or have a feature in next month's issue of Corel Painter magazine. Wow, yeah, none of that gives my life any meaning OR pleasure. Thanks for clearing that up for me!


Generally speaking... Yeah, this sucks about the Gathering. I owe a lot of things in my life to Gargoyles and the Gathering. Gargoyles was a major catalyst for my art; it's what made me take it seriously and drive myself (often VERY harshly) to improve. At my first Gathering, I met some wonderful people who I now think of as dear family. We may not always agree, and sometimes we have some pretty rough fights, but these are people who've stuck with me through the dark times and celebrate with me through the good times, and vice versa. I owe the first great love of my life to the Gathering. There was no happy ending for us, but I still would not trade that experience for anything in the world. To think that this will be the last Gathering is like a knife in the guts.

I'd rather focus on the GOOD. Each Gathering that I've been to has been an amazing experience. I've seen some of the blood, sweat, tears and fecal matter that some of the staffs have to wade through to make each con happen, and I'm amazed by their resilience.

I hear a lot of people lamenting and beating their chests about this being the last Gathering, griping about what went wrong and why it failed, and disappointment that the staff waited until the "last minute" to announce the decision. Honestly, what would happen if the folks who are decrying the announcement instead turned around and asked what they could do to help the Gathering continue? Pointing fingers, laying blame, and gnashing our teeth won't accomplish anything. Sure, it's been thrown on the table that somebody else can form a con staff and throw their own Gargoyles convention next year. Is anyone up to it? Are others up to putting in the funds to get it rolling? It's a daunting task. I'll be the first to admit I don't have the patience for it (and certainly not the temper).

Kythera of Anevern

Amp> And you still haven't acknowledged Jen's personal attacks. Instead you're fabricating the concept that my first post was somehow "rude."
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

I am definitely liking these new civil comments. Yay!!
Hi, Matt! Hi, Lynati! Out of the woodworks indeed! I haven't posted in here in a while also before today.

Lurker> I thought I saw someone posting waaayyy down there when this first started that they wanted a roomie... Not sure the name. If ya can't find him, I'll try to look him up.

Jade Griffin
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Could you point out how Todd's first post was so rude?
Ron Smith

Nick, I understand it is a two way street. My point is simply, from my point of view, Todd may have poorly set the terms of the conversation/debate/engagement with his first post.
~ My friends call me Amp

My first post was anything BUT rude. But if we're declaring anything to be rude to support our points then -I- say YOU'RE uncivil and rude!

I don't really think that, but it doesn't feel too good does it? I went back and re-read my first post. DEFINITELY not rude -at all.- that's kind of slanderous, Amp.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Todd, with all due respect, you don't know who I am. You don't know if I am a friend of Jennifer's or not.

The reason I am responding to you is two fold:
1) This whole time you have protested that your responses have been civil and polite (or at least, not rude). I took issue with that because I found your very first post here today to be incredibly rude, and it possibly set the tone for every subsequent reply.
2) You claimed no one is responding to you in a civil manner. I attempted to rectify this by pointing out my perspective from above in what I thought to be a civil manner.

~ My friends call me Amp

Todd> I'd be. And I'm a peaceful person.
"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Jade Griffin> I am in Texas. Yup. Texas.

ANYONE WANT TO SHARE A ROOM AT THE CONVENTION?! I only post this because I want to make sure my offer is heard amidst the chaos.

BTW Jade, I like your quote. Quick story. Yesterday I had dinner at 8 pm. At 11 pm a friend asked if I was hungry. I said, "Yeah. Well, not really but I could eat." I then ate two big tacos, a cookie, and drank a few cups of tea. I love food.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

I'm not angered at all. O_o
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Amp> It's a two-way street. One side (Jen) refuses to accept they've done wrong while the other (Todd) is backed with others who say otherwise (Purple Goldfish, Lynati). Then side one (Jen) tries to make light of it while being sarcastic and write it off, with assistance from friends (Bishanksy... which, btw, to compare this to the girl in Iran getting shot... dude, I'm far from PC, but that's nowheres near the same) while side two (Todd) gets angered over not being taken seriously, furthering their own point.
"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

I should have made more clear that I agreed with the other factors she mentioned. So I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I'm doing my best to keep up with everything everyone is saying to me. But it's me against....well a lot of you.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Amp: That's because I was only suggesting that might idea played a PART, so I only responded to the aspect of her big post that had to do with my point. I fully acknowledge the other factors she mentioned as playing a part in the Gathering's demise. What isn't being acknowledged, is my idea...because most of you don't want to hear it.

Also, if you're going to take up for your pal Jen, maybe you should tell her personal attacks against me are inappropriate? Otherwise I'm inclined to see everything you say as being tainted by gross amounts of bias.

I mean, must be nice. I wish -I- could level personal attacks against people who've done nothing of the sort to me, and then get backed up by my friends. But I have the type of friends who'll call me out when I'm being rude.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Admittedly, this is the first time in a long time the comment room has seen this much action.

It also does prove we all -OBVIOUSLY- have a love of the subject ("Gargoyles"). We just have differing viewpoints on certain subjects.

As for "Put Up Or Shut Up".... well, since the comment first came up, I've been brainstorming. That's just it. Don't count on anything this year or next, but you never know. I'm the crazy sumbitch who might try something.

*goes to the drawing board*

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Todd, respectfully, why should Jen respond to any of your points? Your very first response to her completely disregarded her point of view and perspective on the subject of why The Gathering has been unsuccessful, and then attempted to supersede it with your own.

Before you can expect anybody to take your point of view into consideration, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to disregard theirs.

~ My friends call me Amp

Matt> That's one way to look at my presence...galvanizing the comment room. ;) Even if it's with an argument. ;)

Ooo my family used to live in St. Louis.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Purplefish and Lynati, I want to thank both of you. You don't have to agree with everything I said, but it means a lot that someone here acknowledged I may have some real substance behind my words.

I mean two of the main gurus here hit me with either hysterical personal attacks...or gruesome youtube videos.

It's never a bad thing to stand up and speak about problems when you see them. I didn't expect ANYONE to acknowledge anything I had to say..because no one on the site EVER has...so thank you. I am really....really surprised.

Though I don't expect many more to admit to anything.

Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Maybe this news is good for the fandom and Gargoyles...

Look how it has revived the Comment Room, brought all sorts of lurkers out of the woodwork and brought in some old and new faces!

Frankly though, this whole argument is silly and pointless.

Thank you Landon for focusing on the important thing. Supporting the trades. They are what we need to push for now, more than anything. Anybody who was planning to put aside money for the Gathering 2010 needs to put that money towards the trades and dvds.

I've never lost faith in a future for Gargoyles. Never. But I have to admit that if the trades coming this summer are unsuccessful, I can't see much chance for new material in the future. And that would be very sad.

I am happy that no matter what, I plan to continue on here and at the GargWiki especially.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I've been denied everything... even my REVENGE!!!" - Goliath, 'Awakening Part Two'

Speaking as a long-time fan and staff member of two (and a half) Gatherings, and someone whose offers to help out on future cons was at best ignored and, to phrase it politely, whose presence it was made clear was undesired, I feel the need to stand up and second Todd Blankenship on a large number (if not all) of his points. Even at the risk of being written off as "just one of those whiny 2005 staff" people.

This kind of thing *has* been happening for years, and the people who saw it didn't bother to speak up because they "knew it wouldn't make a difference." Somebody pointed out to me recently that sometimes you need to speak up just because you feel strongly about something, regardless of what outcome you expect.

A lot of the issues I see being raised here I, too, used to write off as obvious exaggerations- until I saw it happen myself, and later, experienced it firsthand.

And why should anyone want to attend a convention where they don't know anyone, and the people in charge have made it clear they care more for the appearance of the convention and their reputation than whether *all* of the attendees- not just their friends- are able to enjoy themselves? I'm not talking take care of every issue raised, but simply being willing to listen to such without getting defensive, and trying to make the average con-goer feel welcome. And yes, the Gatherings I staffed for, I *did* go around asking attendees how they liked the con, including what they thought could be improved on and done better. You can't make repairs to something you refuse to admit is broken.

And yeah, civility has definitely been lacking.


Even though I'm disappointed, I'd still like to thank everyone that has made any of the Gatherings possible (staff, guests, attendees, etc). I was able to attend two and had a good time at both. If they start up again, I'll do my best to continue to attend, or at least donate some money.

Thanks again for the time and money you've all spent to bring us all together once a year.

Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Greg B: Dude, seriously that video? Not needed.

I'm not gonna get into this because I don't know anyone personally that well here-but I do know what it feels like to be beaten down verbally for your opinions or what have you-no it's not as bad as having your head blown off-but it still hurts, okay-It can even ruin lives if someone gets enough of it. It's wrong to minimize someone else's pain or compare it to something worse-low blow and uncalled for.

I may not agree with everything Todd and others said on here, but it seems like they were really affected by things done or said to them. Words and contempt hurt and can stay with you a long time. They have the right to defend themselves against that.


In fact I challenge anyone here to remain as CIVIL as I've been in the face of being attacked for my viewpoint by well...every single member of this site. I think I'm due a little credit.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Jane> Perhaps I was flippant but surely you can see far more GRIEVOUS errors posted by your buddies. I'm doing the best I can. No one's perfect. But I disagree that I was uncivil. ;) But for you, I'll try not to be "flippant" anymore. I can't promise I won't be sarcastic, particularly in the face of personal attacks.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Hey Jen, is that a SECOND super awesome personal attack? And it's a SECRET one too! That makes it EXTRA special. I notice you didn't actually reply to any of my points. Not surprised.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Lurker> Hey, what state are you in? I actually did prepare a bid for 2010 but money and con staffing is the issue. I know few fans in my area I'd trust with con-running. I'm up for it, but I need help. I'm out of work. I have the time to commit to it. Not necessarily out of pocket cash, but time, sure! And devotion. I'm in Nevada. Reno, to be precise.

Two of the downsides to low attendance reaching critical mass were A.) the resultant announcement of the Con Staff deciding to cut back on their addiction which is staffing a garg con *l* and B.) is the lack of revenue generated in presale con registrations at the CURRENT con. I'm not saying it isn't impossible but I see the chances dimming of hosting a con without that presale bulk in your pocket to get things rolling for a big con. Small cons are surely easier and may be the future of our fandom and that is perfectly fine. We could then all get together and pool our resources and see if we can get a megacon going again. It might be an end of an era or it might not. Time, and effort, shall be our signs. Look to the sky for those shadows in the night.

Todd> You said you were civil and such but I don't think cynical talking or being flippant counts in civility. This is in reference to your post from "Todd Blankenship
posted @ Tue, Jun 23, 2009 9:34:00 pm EDT". Scroll down and review for your own eyes but I saw flip remarks. I don't mind that ya made them. Just don't say that they are civil cuz I don't see it.

Jade Griffin
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Actually Todd, you remind me of someone who USE to be on the Con-staff for several years.


:: winks at the con staffers in her super secret clique inside joke kind of way ::

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I would appreciate it if one person on this boat would not assume I'm an evil, lecherous hump." - Malcom Reynolds, FIREFLY

Where people have been saying that the inner clique is just one group of people, and shouldn't be the focus, that's one of the biggest problems. When the group of people putting on the Gathering, or doing anything really, keep out any new blood they're also keeping out new fresh new talent and ideas, and the extra funds that more bodies bring to the equation. By catering to the old guard and nothing else, you shoot yourself in the foot.
Ron Smith

Don't try to put words in my mouth! There's no room. ;) And I'll call people out on it every time. I'm very aware of what I said.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

I never criticized the Gathering or how it was run. I suggested that something that COULD have contributed to the attendance being down, was a sometimes unwelcoming attitude toward newcomers to the website. I then related that I had experience that myself, along with many others I know.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

*sigh* Ok... people are getting mad about "put up or shut up", so here's my explanation (for my own sake). There are two issues of conversation here.

One: People are upset because they feel they have been treated poorly by the "cliques" (btw I was being sarcastic about that in my previous post). While I'm sure it's annoying to feel left out, there are many more people in this fandom than those who are on, or close to, the staff. That group just gets an inordinate amount of exposure because the con is so very small. Some people get along, some don't. If you don't feel connected to someone, it doesn't mean they're a bad person, it just means you don't want to be friends. If someone doesn't want to be your friend, accept it and find someone who does. It's not like the 'cliques' in any fandom were born in the same room. We've all met over the course of many years, people have come and gone. It's natural.

2) The issue of the Gathering. Those I am taking issue with (and whom "put up or shut up" was directed towards) are in the same breath complaining that the Gathering was run poorly by bad people, and complaining that those people don't want to do it anymore and their reasons don't satisfy you. You can't have it both ways. It's like looking at a piece of art and saying it sucks, but then demanding an explanation from the artist for why it sucks. AND belittling their efforts. It doesn't have anything to do with a democracy - it's art. They've been doing it for fun - and for you - and they have no obligations to anyone. If you can't do it better, stop your comments once you can see they are not helping anyone. If you CAN do it, that's awesome and please do. In other words, put up or shut up and I stand by that, crude a phrase as it may be.


Andrea Z. - [andrea at azucconi dot com]
"Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion."

Wow, I had massive typos in that last one. The worst of them being this part "SO, I am requestions to room share" That should have been I am REQUESTING to room share.

I would also like to correct this: " Maybe we can even post how much funds have been raised compared to how much we would need. Sure its outright begging, in a way, but that may encourage people to give."

Sorry I did not get much sleep.

I to noticed a lot of n00bs ran out of here by a difference of opinion. Sure they may have said something really crazy but i dont think anything commented would have warranted the no lube train that was run on them by the "old guard."

BTW. With the new trades coming out, we may be getting some new traffic to S8. We should really put on a pretty face for them instead of fighting.

Oh well. Im trying to NOT argue, I just wanted to post what I noticed.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

Jade> Hell yeah. No one can actually STOP me, short of banning me. ;) But that doesn't mean I won't point out when someone TRIES. ;) It's probably because I'm Irish. No one can REALLY shut us up.
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Todd> LOL, you did voice your opinion. No one can squelch THAT! It is said and done but ya keep goin', dude. No need, ser. Truly.
Jade Griffin
"Food, food, FOOD!!" - Jade Griffin, on many occasions

Archangel> ..... ok, I'll stay away from my "Sports Entertainment is what's killed the wreslting business" usually commentary because it doesn't apply this time. But I get what you're saying, and I'll conceed that.

At least you speak a language I understand. *laughs*

I'd love to meet ya in the ring. Get me the booking, and I'll gladly put you over. *Happiness is being a jobber.*

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Eh yeah some people need to result to cynicism and sarcastic insults in arguments because they otherwise can't have valid points to offer. Kaboom!

I have to be elsewhere to save the day, ahoi! *gone* ;)


*Crawls out from under the debris, cough, then brushes clothes off*

Well, the CR certainly went a LONG time without quarreling. A moment of silence on that, please. *Pause*

I have ordered my trades, everyone else that hasnt, please do so if you can.

I would like to go but dont want to spend all that money. SO, I am requestions to room share. I am a 25 year old male that is very respectful of space and property. If you would like to split cost, send me an email.

And um,. Greg B. Not criticizing you but that was pretty graphic stuff there. Maybe a spoiler should have been placed on that. OR a better example of opinion squelching would be this little gem here.


Finally, I agree that the Gathering might fare better by skipping a year or so. Maybe we can even post how many funds are raise compared to how many we would need. Sure its outright begging, in anway, but that may encourage people to give. Heck, even $25 quarterly would amount in $100. Get enough people to do that and BAM. Just offering ideas here. I would love to host one but dont have the money to do so.

Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

Jen> And other than the fact I happen to be disagreeing with you, is there anything that stands out about me that is so absolutely horrible that would suggest you guys might not have enjoyed my personality? Is there something about me that suggests I don't have anything of value to offer? You've already devalued my opinion because you think I come from some OTHER place...are you now devaluing my entire personality because you don't like the fact that I said, hey I had a bad experience and maybe you guys drove some newcomers away?
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

Jen> If you can't reply or argue with me in a sane, civil manner, don't reply at all. Kthx. ;) I'm not replying to any of you that way and EVERYONE'S coming at me. I should be the one getting all upset, not you. ;)
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

I'm not going to complain about this year's con being the last one. As a person who attended a gathering, I noticed an inner circle, but guess what: I didn't care. The fact is there has to be an inner circle to make things work both effectively and efficiently. Those people on con staff have to learn to trust each other. I've heard stories about the behind-the-scenes cost of the gathering and believed them. Heck, I figured there was very few people who had the talent to run a gathering, and fewer still who had the financial resources to pull it off. I also figured that group of people was constantly reducing in number. Is it a big surprise that there's no gathering con next year? Not really. I think it's rather selfish for us to complain about NOT having a gathering next year. Sure, there's a few things that I wish the gathering staff could do, but I'm more than aware that financial difficulties prevent most of those ideas from happening so I won't complain.

I don't take Put Up or Shut Up as an insult, but rather as a challenge.

Whatever happened to simplicity?

Oh my hell... how about we take off the "put up or" part??

Todd, I can't IMAGINE why you didn't click with anyone here. Seriously. You are FULL of charm and wit! I really don't have time to worry about what EVERYONE's opinion of me is.

THIS COMMENT ROOM slighted you, so you want to take it out on The Gathering Staff. Got it ... we all get it... SERIOUSLY got it! OMG WE GOT IT!

ED - Thank you for getting it. You get it. You understand. Much appreciated.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I would appreciate it if one person on this boat would not assume I'm an evil, lecherous hump." - Malcom Reynolds, FIREFLY

I know it's not worth anything to argue here, but Greg. Really? The only possible way your opinion could be being squashed is if you're getting your head blown off? It's pretty cool that there's no other way to smash someone's opinions down though. A real load off my mind.
Ron Smith

Oh here's my e-mail so you guys can all argue with me privately too. ; )
Todd Blankenship - [arsenal1979 at msn dot com]

I'd imagine it's hard to have perspective when you feel so defensive of your friends. No one wants to consider that MAYBE they didn't treat some new people so nice and that that COULD have had an effect, however large or small, on the fandom. It's not even being CONSIDERED this idea. Instead it's all "BLARGH PUT UP OR SHUT UP START YOUR OWN GATHERING IT'S YOUR FAULT FOR NOT TRYING WAY HARDER TO BE OUR FRIEND RARGH." ;)
Todd Blankenship

Now outside of that----I, however, agree with the idea of just not doing a gathering yearly and so spread the "load" over 2-3 years before the next one. I've been to one, only, and it was nice.

Greg, whatever that link is, it's irrelevant to this discussion. ;) You're defending your people, that's cool, and it's no surprise. I wasn't the only one who took it that way. Your pal Demonaskye also felt it was unreasonable. ;) You can't tell someone to put up or shut up for merely criticizing something. That's nuts.

I DO have perspective. Do you?

Todd Blankenship

"put up or shut up?"
Are we still in a democracy here?

Man. I wish we could say that in life, really. Could say that to presidents so they'd keep their promises and stop stupid speeches.

Unfortunatly, no, that's harsh, rude, and in life it doesn't work that way. People have the right to give an opinion and self feelings about an experience. Saying "do this or shut up" is an order, that's quite different from an opinion.

I agree this is the kind of attitude that drives people away. So is getting ignored. :P


TODD> "When people tell you to "put up or shut up" it sort of implies that my words are meaningless unless I start a Gathering of my own. So yes, people were trying to squelch my opinion. "

No one here was trying to squelch any opinion.

You want see what opinions being squelched actually looks like?


Look at this and tell me... is your opinion really being squelched?

A right to an opinion does not mean freedom from criticism. I'm sure I'll be criticized for posting that. But, dude... perspective.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that�s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it�s nothing. It�s just bibble-babble. It�s like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks." -Harlan Ellison

Archangel> Yeah there was a time when I would have enjoyed it. But that time has passed, and it's kind of sad in a way. Fortunately I've met a lot of great people in the fandom who ALSO didn't have such a great experience with this site and who understand where I'm coming from. I've been having "gatherings" with them for some time.
Todd Blankenship

Ed> I respect what you say, but I do happen to disagree. It's not flakiness to give up on ingratiating oneself into a place like this. Civility is NEVER a bad thing when welcoming new people...and myself and some others certainly didn't receive much kindness OR civility. I wouldn't WANT to try to "earn" the trust of such people. I'd rather have much nicer friends.
Todd Blankenship

Todd, if your just here to enjoy the arguement, then you're still getting something from the fandom then. I guess it's better then nothing. I bet you'd really like to attend the Gathering, but with a large group of friends.
Archangel - [azucconi at hotmail dot com]

Greg: When people tell you to "put up or shut up" it sort of implies that my words are meaningless unless I start a Gathering of my own. So yes, people were trying to squelch my opinion.

If it really cuts both ways, then perhaps you should enforce that. Because the only way the blade's cutting around here is right across my neck. ;)

Look at me go! ;)

Todd Blankenship

Bummer about the Gathering.

Never did attend myself. Plenty of good reasons, genuine reasons -- money, commitments etc. etc. But the bottom line is, I knew about it since '98. Twelve shots. And across that time, I didn't want to enough to make it a priority.

Nothing to do with Spidey. If anything, Spidey made me much MORE interested in the convention. The guest that made me sit up most? Daran Norris -- both for SSM and Veronica Mars.

Nothing to do with Greg Weisman. The last few years have proved that it's not just the nostalgia of childhood as I'd started to worry. Greg's just amazing, and has amazing people around him in the main. I love his comics. I love his shows.

Nothing to do with the con staff or any 'cliques' or whatnot, though it's true that I only keep in touch with a handful of 'Gargoyles' fans and if all those people turned out I would too.

Nope. It all came down to me. I take full responsibility for my not attending; and, indirectly I suppose, for my part of the con not going on.

That's not a complaint, or a lament, or an apology. I made the choices that were right for me and I've no interest in "shoulda woulda coulda" Monday morning rationalisations.

Having said that, I am very grateful to the staff. Even though I never attended, I have no doubt the cons are a big part of the longevity of the series and its tenuous but still real hold on life.

So a huge thanks to everyone who broke their backs thirteen times over (or even just the once). For grafting, for taking the flak, for dreaming big and delivering on it. For keeping people plugged in. For the revelations. In a roundabout way for the comic. For the anecdotes. For the art. For forking over the money and the time and the energy and the enthusiasm and doing the ugly godforsaken bits of admin and organisation and whatnot. For keeping going.

The clique thing... I've been on both sides of this kind of situation. But generally, it comes down to the fact that if you're grafting and deeply involved and care then you get a kind of shorthand and espirit de corps. That can be hard to break into, intimidating, but then again, not impossible. Most people who volunteer for this kind of thing talk a good game but, when the going gets tough, flake out. And the people that get left behind get that much more used to doing it themselves because they won't have to pick up the slack (and the tab) later on. Of course if you come through and deliver, you're golden. But it takes time to earn trust. That can seen unfair, but then again if you're easily put off, it may be just as well for everyone else.

One thing's for sure, it's easy to cry foul. Especially after the fact, when it's all too late. But a drop of sweat on the brow towards a cause is worth way more than a thousand words. "Put up or shut up" sounds harsh but it's also fair. The only truly fair way, because there's no room for bull.


"Todd"> No one ever said you weren't entitled to an opinion. Very clearly you have an opinion on the Gathering and the conduct of some of us here.

Andrea happened to have an opinion on your conduct in here. Which she is just as entitled to as you are to your opinion on us.

It cuts both ways.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]
"Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that's horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it's nothing. It's just bibble-babble. It's like a fart in a wind tunnel, folks." -Harlan Ellison

"Now Todd, if you don't care then you wouldn't be here talking now. You'd be off somewhere enjoying your life."

I keep trying to leave but it's like I can't stop myself. ;) I argue on principle, not because any emotions are attached. I feel nothing...aside from a desire not to allow anyone here to muddy the waters when I make a point. I don't like being misrepresented. ;)

Todd Blankenship

First of all, Nick, if someone else would have stepped up to run the next Gathering people wouldn't be saying it's over. Feel free to try to run one. When the person who has been staff for more Gatherings then anyone else (Nine of Twelve) says they won't do it again, and no one steps up, then it's over. Explain to me how they can't say that.
Also, let me expain to you why the Gathering added things like Spiderman in a way you'll understand. As one pro-wrestler to another, Wrestling started as a sideshow act, but people stopped coming to see it, so now it's "Sports-Entertainment". You evolve or die.
That said, let me end with all my respect, and I'd love to meet you in the ring.
Now Todd, if you don't care then you wouldn't be here talking now. You'd be off somewhere enjoying your life. Always remember that opinions are like "A--H----", and like them, other people don't want you opinion in there face. If the Gathering meant enough to you, then you'd fight to keep it. That's why your opinion doesn't matter to those who do fight for something they love. Maybe if you get mad enough you will fight, and maybe that'll bring about something great. I'll wait and see.

Archangel - [azucconi at hotmail dot com]

Jen> And you just proved my point yet again. You dismiss my comments because you -think- you know "who I am." ...But you don't. Don't assume that because I chat elsewhere that my word should carry no weight. That's pretty dismissive and is exactly what I was talking about.

Oh, and I just DID give specifics. Sorry I don't have any dates and times. I must have misplaced my S8-Rejection Spreadsheet. Dangit, where'd I put that thing...

Todd Blankenship

Just as an example of my point, I recently posted a picture of Zachary Quinto walking with some Heroes crew member in a Gargoyles shirt. It got picked up by a Star Trek blog due to the voice actor connection: http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_startrek/361164.html The blog so far has 64 comments, most of which were Star Trek fans who were reminiscing of how great Gargoyles was. If 64 more people had bought Clan-Building #1, that would equal a 4.4% increase in sales, which is not shabby at all in terms of performance. These numbers are so small that we can literally alter the destiny of the franchise. And there is literally no better time to do it than right now.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Antiyonder> I was perfectly civil. And I don't believe I challenged your right to have an opinion. Only my right was challenged, as apparently I have to "put up or shut up" so I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make. ;) You can't really turn those words around on me as I made no attempt to squelch anyone else's opinions. ;)

Well the overriding problem was that my comments were routinely ignored....and this happened routinely over a period of time. I attempted to bring this issue to discussion numerous time and met the same response I'm seeing here which is...complere denial. Additionally, I posted some art and the comments made were snide and degrading. I was VERY shocked. The rest I don't really remember as it was years ago. Hope that helps! All right, time for bed. Work tomorrow.

Todd Blankenship

Demonskyre - :: KISSES YOU :: thank you for being rational!

Antiyonder - I'll bet that you won't get such specifics from "Todd". I'm quite sure we all know who they are, and they aren't being quite honest here.

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I would appreciate it if one person on this boat would not assume I'm an evil, lecherous hump." - Malcom Reynolds, FIREFLY

I want to reiterate that even though the Gathering is ending, GARGOYLES IS NOT DEAD. But it is on life-support. Gargoyles #8 sold 5,287 in March 2008. Bad Guys #4 sold 3,655 in August 2008. And Clan-Building #1 sold 1,453 in January 2008.

These are the numbers we're dealing with. They're tiny, but for a tiny publisher like SLG, they're golden. That gives us a great and very attainable opportunity: increase the sales only a small number and it will have a profound effect on SLG's bottom line.

We don't know what threshold will give SLG the gumption and capital to negotiate a kick-ass graphic novel license deal with Disney. But there is a threshold and we have to exceed it. And since SLG is having financial trouble and Gargoyles is always their best-selling product, we could save both Gargoyles and the company at the same time.

All we have to do is inform old fans about Gargoyles. The great thing about a nostalgia brand like Gargoyles is the sales numbers are already built-in: we just have to shake them lose.

For me, the big news of the summer is not the last Gathering. It's the culmination of three graphic novels becoming available at the same time. It's the perfect sales pitch: buy Clan-Building #1 now and you'll be able to buy another new book in July and another new book in August. It's the perfect opportunity to bring in new fans. All it takes is three cheap purchases on Amazon. If we don't work our butts off to make these sales happen in the next 2 months, Gargoyles itself will die and it may be impossible to bring it back again.

Here are the short links again:

Clan-Building Volume 1: http://is.gd/AvEi
Clan-Building Volume 2: http://is.gd/C0Mj
Bad Guys - Redemption: http://is.gd/CpZY

P.S. And don't forget about The Spectacular Spider-Man, ANOTHER great series that will live or die this summer. Season 2 premiered on Monday. We need to get folks to watch and buy the boxset coming out on July 28: http://www.amazon.com/Spectacular-Spider-Man-Complete-First-Season/dp/B002A5EBLW

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Todd Blankenship> I was merely sharing my experiences and offering an opinion...which I....THOUGHT...I had the right to do? ;)

You do have the right to offer your opinion, but you need to voice it in a civil way. And it would help to describe what the "clique" did to make you feel that you've been wronged.

Antiyonder - [antiyonder at yahoo dot com]
Algernon's comment about Norman Osborn: One of the neat things about Dark Reign is that it gives Osborn the chance to expand his horizons beyond tormenting a twenty nine year old who still lives with his mom.

Andrea> Hey thanks for proving my point about how people act around here! I haven't been rude or anything, just explained my experiences. Sorry you don't like it?

All of you seem to be missing my point. First impressions...hell TENTH impressions mean a lot to me. I haven't thought about the Gathering in years, because people like Andrea drove me away from this site.

I don't have to put up. Know why? Because I don't care. You guys drove me to apathy years ago.

I was merely sharing my experiences and offering an opinion...which I....THOUGHT...I had the right to do? ;)

Welp, it hasn't been fun! Have fun with your special pals, guys! I'm off to hang out with people capable of admitting SOME culpability in the events that affect their lives! Weee!

Todd Blankenship

Speaking only for myself, the only kind of drama I enjoy is the drama in "Gargoyles." The drama that comes from this part of the fandom clashing with that part of the fandom is something I don't want anything to do with. I've never been to a Gathering, which is probably my loss, so to me, the whole discussion is just going to be a bunch of "he said, she said." I am going to be a little more skeptical of someone I have never seen before coming in and saying "We all know this is what happened." But beyond that, I don't really know or care.

If you have a legitimate concern about the Gathering and how it was run and can express it without making personal attacks, by all means do. Obviously not everyone is happy with how the Gathering was run and there is nothing wrong with that. I've been to a number of different cons and I can't say I liked every single aspect of any one of them. I have no problem with people airing their criticisms in a civil manner.

I am not a fan of the "put up or shut up" argument. I don't think just because you can't do something yourself you have no right to criticize. But when I see people here complain in one breath about the current Gathering staff deciding to end the Gathering without giving a new batch of people a chance to do it and then turning around and saying "Well, I couldn't host a con because the fandom elite would tell everyone not to go," I can't help but feel like it's a little silly. My guess - and again, I have no inside information - is that part of the reason the Gathering is ending is that the aforementioned financial issues mean that the current con staff is handing next year's con staff a big pile of future debt rather than a war chest and it doesn't seem fair to say "Sure, you can host next year's Gathering, but you'll have to pay for a big chunk of it out of your own pocket." If you're someone who believed that the Gathering turned into a big cult of personalities, why not try doing your own Gargoyles con and seeing if you can do it better and attract people who feel the same way? Or people who, like me, are becoming more casual fans who just like the stories and could care less about the interfandom politics?

Gargoyleslady> Elisa suspected Xanatos wasn't telling her something and she obviously thought it was a big enough deal to merit further investigation. I don't know if she knew for certain that he was up to something bad, but she must have believed that it was something she needed to know about.

Jurgen> Forgot to mention this earlier: Where did you find that pile of misinformation? Whatever "station8.com" is, they must post a lot of weird rumors and unverified stories. :)

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

Wow... just... wow. No wonder I'm never here anymore.

Greg, AND THE REST OF MY 'CLIQUE' - I love you! All points that needed to be made were made by you and others, so no need for me to say anything else mature/normal/sounding in any way like common sense. I agree 100% with the ComiCon comparison - most cons you never even SEE the con staff, much less notice who they hang out with. Like Greg said, there have been Gatherings with other people on staff, and they were fun! But few people have the stamina to keep it going repeatedly.

Nick and Todd - yes. Yes, step up or shut up. That's how life works. I've enjoyed the fandom (and 8 out of 10 Gatherings) for 10 years. Even when I couldn't go, I bought a supporting membership. It has been going strong for longer than any of us thought possible - and those who have been brave enough to put in the time and money to make it so for all this time are burned out. Don't expect them to keep going when they can't - and if you can't accept the reasons you are given, say so and then let it go. If you have better ideas, please do run the next Gathering! We will all be glad to attend and have a break!

Andrea Z. - [andrea at azucconi dot com]

I'll put it succinctly:

Three cheers for all the hard work you guys put in.

But bad form on some of the necessary social aspects of the fandom. ;)

Todd Blankenship

Gathering> It makes sense that attendance would drop. Given the state of the economy, people who would normally attend the con (and even more so, people who haven't) are using all their money just to get by. As saddened as I am by this, it's harsh reality. There's just no financial stability to support an ailing convention. Hell, my boyfriend and I were registered to attend this year, which, being this is 'the last chance', I'm kind of bummed out about b/c of the following, but can't thanks to the slump.

That said, who says the Gathering has to die permanently? Metaphorically speaking, it could just go into a proverbial coma and be revived when the economical state of our great nation is improved. So there won't be a Gathering 2010 (*BEEP*ing dammit), but maybe, in a few years, we'll have a Gathering 2012, or a G2013. Who knows?

Just gotta keep optimistic.

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra_582 at hotmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

And Greg, I love you to. ;)
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Greg, with all due respect, you really don't know what you're talking about. I mean, don't get me wrong. I respect the fact that people put up their OWN MONEY to keep these things going. I was merely offering a my experience as an example of what happened to people who weren't part of the old guard. By the way, love the show, love the writing, but that doesn't make anyone my idol. I love Alan Moore too but I still recognize he's a crazy old coot. ; )
Todd Blankenship

Man I wasn't aware that people offering their opinions had to put up or shut up. ;)
Todd Blankenship

I almost never read S8 anymore (for reasons I'm not going to go into here) so if anyone has the cajones to respond to any of the points I've made, your best bet is via email. Bless your hearts. *smirk*
Ethan MacKuin - [EthanMacKuin at gmail dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges" --Jack Terrycloth

Hey folks,

Thought I should speak up. In part to defend my friends, I suppose, but also just to make my position on all this clear.

I'm the person who suggested we end the thing. Me. Frankly, I was simply horrified to discover how much of their own MONEY the con staff was putting toward the convention year after year... with it costing them increasingly more with each succeeding convention and with attendance falling at a steady clip. And that's on top of the incredible amount of hard work that these people put in. There have been other individuals and groups who have run individual Gatherings here and there, but most burn out after one year and don't do it again. This group volunteered their time year after year. Stuck with it when others wouldn't. They deserve praise, not scorn.

Are they my friends? Of course. Are they loyal to me? I think so. I like to think I'm just as loyal to them. Are they cliquish at times. Yeah. I've noticed that too. It happens with any group of people who work very hard together to do something and, frankly, feel largely unappreciated for their efforts. They get tight.

But I don't buy the notion that this is an impenetrable clique -- especially since new members join the group all the time. I've known some of these folks for over a decade. Others, just for a couple years. And even if you aren't admitted to this so-called "Inner Circle", what difference should that make? The Gathering is big enough for multiple cliques. Big enough for you to bring your own clique. The Gathering has interesting and informative events whether or not you're in ANY clique.

When someone asks "Why would I want to give any money to hang out with people who have no interest in including me?" I think the question itself is off point. They're throwing you a convention! They're including you! Does that mean they have to personally enjoy your company? Personally, spend time with you? That's unreasonable. You may be great. You may be annoying. I don't know. But they don't have an obligation to coddle you. Just to put on a great show, which I think they've done year after year.

And you're not paying to spend time with them anyway, you're paying to attend the con. Or not. No one's holding a gun to your head, but then don't complain if the thing isn't somehow able to continue indefinitely on SOMEONE ELSE'S DIME.

Don't get me wrong. No one is going to miss the Gathering more than I. I think there's some real truth to the accusation that the thing became Greg Weisman's annual ego boost. Because without a doubt it is a HUGE ego boost for me personally. Year in and year out, I have a blast. I'm treated VERY well, and I enjoy that treatment. I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

But it's not as simple as that. For starters, the reason that the con has consistently featured me and the various series that I've worked on is because I'm willing to do the work to help put the convention together. Frank Paur, just as an example, is ALWAYS welcome, but he doesn't always choose to come. I ALWAYS want to be there. So it's something of a not-so-vicious circle. I provide the convention with contacts -- and the convention uses those contacts to hold panels on Starship Troopers or WITCH or, this year, The Spectacular Spider-Man. All of which is an attempt to INCREASE the attendance by bringing in other fandoms and exposing them to Gargoyles. It's worked to some degree, but not enough.

I've also provided contacts for shows like Darkwing Duck and TaleSpin and Kim Possible, and we've had panels on those that I wasn't a part of because my involvement on those series was nearly non-existent. But I knew those guys, so I got 'em to come. I'm sure everyone would have loved it if I had gotten, uh, say, the Avatar/Last Air Bender guys to do a panel on that show. Trouble is, I don't know those guys. So no luck.

And, hey, I did create the show that we're theoretically celebrating. I am the guy who's fought to get the DVDs and the comics, etc. It's because of the fandom that I never gave up. But it doesn't change the fact that I'm the guy who never gave up. So maybe it's not SUCH a bad thing that I've been the primary beneficiary of the con. Or maybe it is. I'm not going to worry about it.

What I am going to do is enjoy the last convention. I really think we'll be going out with a bang with a ton of special guests. And, ironically, because of the low attendance the BEST FAN-TO-PRO RATIO you'll find at any convention EVER!!! If you can't afford to come this year, we're very sorry. We'll miss you. Really. But if you can, you should try, because once again, I think it'll be a great show.

But of course I'm biased. ;)

And as Jennifer pointed out, if anyone else wants to have a Gargoyles convention in 2010 or 2011 or 2198, no one's stopping you. I'm still willing to attend, still willing to help. Or willing to stay away, if that would be best. But I'd advise thinking long and hard about both the time commitment and the financial aspect of it before jumping in. Cuz it's tough. Not for me. It's easy for me. But for whomever happens to be the constaff in any given year, it's a lot of work and not cheap.

Now, I suppose for some people, all I've done in this post is prove their point. I'm tight with the constaff. They're tight with me. All true. But they've still put out an open invitation year after year to friends and so-called-foes alike. All they're really saying is that they're done. You think you can do better? Go for it!

Greg Weisman

Ethan, I love you, man.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

As someone who has been to *counts* four cons spread out over the last seven years, while this does come as a bit of a shock; it's not a surprise. Sure money is the obvious reason but more than that, it seems like the fanbase itself as a whole has gotten much more apathetic as time has gone on. That, by far and above is, I feel, the main reason for this con being considered as the last in its current incarnation.

That having been said, instead of complaining, spewing baseless rumors, making up theories, or just baldfaced lying; put your money where your mouth is and start a brand new con! Hell, everything else seems to be getting a reboot lately. Comics, movies, television series, I can come up with at least one example in each of those categories of an ongoing series that has recently been rebooted. Maybe it's time the con got one too?

Oh and before anyone tries to turn this around on me and asks why I don't do it? Simple, I can't afford to and I'll be the first one to admit that. Would I do it if I could? Hells yeah!!! I can't so instead I'll thank everyone who has had anything to do with putting them on in the past (yes even including those I've had issues with), watch my dvds and read my comics and hope that someone will stop whining long enough to put a new one on.

Ethan MacKuin - [EthanMacKuin at gmail dot com]
"I wouldn't wanna live in a world without grudges" --Jack Terrycloth

Jen> That's where you're wrong. I ALSO go to Comic-con every year. But that's different. The Gargoyles fandom is a special group and the comradery, at least for me, would be part of the fun. You don't have to agree with what I'm saying...and I'm not surprised you won't admit people've been driven away...but I DO have the right to say that one reason I never came to the Gatherings was because of how your group made me feel when I tried to join you all here. I was registered and everything once. I paid some kind of fee too. I can't remember, but then I just didn't go through with it because some of you were just......awful. All the Comic-Con organizers that I've dealt with have always been kind and accepting. You guys...haven't been. I mean, sorry to tell you guys things you don't want to hear, but maybe instead of getting super-defensive, you could actually...you know...consider it. But then again, most people don't like to admit mistakes. Nevermind.
Todd Blankenship

Nick > I just got through explaining how attendance is the lifeblood of any convention, yet you want to argue that appealing to the fans "Spider-Man" and other shows is a bad thing. You just don't get it.

Ron > The explanations have been made. What further apologies are owed? This year's con is still happening, and everyone who attends it will get all they've paid for and more.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Greg> Does it not, however, deter people who might want to run it and keep the gatherings going when people who are, as has been stated, "old gaurd" openly state: "Yep. It's over. No more. The end." Without even a thought about "maybe someone else could give it a try?"

As Todd mentioned, too many people have been run off that would actually try to do something. But that would never happen because of how people get in others' ears, and say: "Don't go there. So and so is running it."

As for every time outside talent has been brought in, I seem to recall there always being money issues those years. Add to this about branching out... um, I mean, I'm just a pro wrestler, we're not considered the smartest people around, but if you go to PIzza HUt, you don't order a Hot Dog. You want a freakin' pizza. If people want "Spiderman" or Anime people, they'll go to an Anime or Spiderman convention. People go to the "Gathering of the GARGOYLES" for the fact it's about GARGOYLES. Or, as we say in my business: "The marquee says WRESTLING, they don't come to see a Kathy Rigby goddamn TRAMPOLINE act."

Logic is all.

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Todd Blankenship - You aren't paying to come to a convention to hang out with ME. You are paying to come to a convention to discuss Gargoyles, Animation, Comics, meet and talk to Voice Actors and Creators. I go to Comic Con every year. I don't expect to ever meet any of the main staff that run the convention. I know they have their CLIQUE, but they do their job and I'm very thankful for them.

The only reason the Gathering didn't die 10 years ago is because of the fresh blood that did more than talk the talk. The people who stepped up and worked their asses off. (Like SIRYN for instance... who is also on THIS YEAR'S staff) If more people actually did that, then there might be some hope... but most just want to complain or are seriously unstable and unable to handle the job. (and it IS a job... a full time, thankless, pay free JOB)

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I would appreciate it if one person on this boat would not assume I'm an evil, lecherous hump." - Malcom Reynolds, FIREFLY

Also, a minor quip, but "We don't owe anyone any answers, any apologies, anything at all." is incredibly crappy. When you're in a position in the know, you -do- owe answers to people. You owe an explanation to the people who've given to the cause all these years, who were looking forward to this year's and the future Gatherings. To act like it's too much of a bother cheapens the whole deal.
Ron Smith

For those asking for transparency, I can offer some follow-up to what my convention co-chair just posted. For those who are looking for some grand conspiracy, however, I'm sorry to say there is none.

Conventions are expensive to run and rely on memberships as their biggest source of income. As attendance has fallen off, the Gathering convention staffs have had to subsidize the con out of their pockets more and more. Unfortunately, we are at a point now where we can no longer continue to personally outlay thousands of dollars each year. I'm sorry it has to come down to something as mundane as money, but that's the cold hard truth.

As to "why did we wait until now?" - We hadn't made the decision yet. We were trying everything we could think of to boost attendance and raise more funds. Would we have been better off to wait and reveal the news at the con or after the con? I doubt it. No matter the timing, this was not going to be happy news. We figured it was better to put it out there now and focus instead on making this last con the best it can be.

Nick > A conversation you had with someone in passing SEVEN YEARS AGO has very little bearing on the current state of things. And where do you get that we are going to stop anyone else from "taking over" and hosting "Gargoyles" conventions? We have stated no such intent. Anyone who wishes to organize a new convention is welcome to do so. My only caution to them would be that they'd better be prepared to spend their own money freely when the attendance falls short and the bills run larger than the initial expectations.

Patrick - [<-- Gathering 2009]
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka

Breaking my silence in this CR because I think this is important.

Okay... I understand people are upset and disappointed. But Jennifer pretty much outlined the exact reasons why there isn't going to be a next year. But, I think I'll add a bit more.

You're free to speculate, as I know that won't stop some of you, but really... that's what it comes down to, numbers. Cold, hard unsympathetic numbers.

As for why we didn't tell you much earlier? Because we didn't know ourselves until very, very, very recently. We didn't hide any information from you. We thought there would be a 2010.

I've worked on a few Gathering Staffs myself. G2003, G2006, G2008, and this one. And let me tell you, this crew is as dedicated as they come to this fandom. They've worked their asses off with little thanks in return. Our thanks was always a good convention that people enjoyed, that's all.

Even before I staffed my first Gathering, I always made it a point once the con was over to thank the con chair and other staff members for all their hard work.

Yes, this fandom has issues at times. Not everyone likes everyone else. Hell, there have been people who've staffed who I personally didn't like and had issues with. But, I never once slandered their love for this series, and for wanting to put on a good convention.

And for those of you who have issues with me, Jennifer, or anyone else on the staff. We are not the be all and end all of this fandom. There are plenty of people who attend these things whom I've never once spoken to but made friends and had a good time.

You are not paying to hang out with us. Trust me, we're too busy busting our asses so you can to really hang out much. But we try.

Do I want there to be a 2010? Of course I do. Hell, I used to joke that one day we'd all have a Gathering Retirement Community in a few decades. But, this is how the cards fell.

Now, I've always believed not being able to afford to come to a Gathering was the best reason not to come. God knows I barely have disposable income anymore. And the economy is in the tanker enough as it is.

But, just to be clear, everyone on staff busted their asses year after year for each and everyone of you. No one is more saddened about this than we are.

So, enough with the conspiracy theories, please. They're doing no good, except to slander people who don't deserve it. You don't like us, fine, we're not losing sleep over it.

But, this convention is not about us. It never has been. Who is it about? Our special guests, and frankly, all of you.

As for what "Spectacular Spider-Man" has to do with the "Gargoyles"... a lot of the same cast and crew for starters. Both are quality shows. But, come on, we've reached beyond "Gargoyles" for special guests and events since the 1999 Gathering in Dallas. This is nothing new at all. And maybe, just maybe, we're hoping to draw fresh blood in as well.

The Gathering of the Gargoyles... run by fans, for fans. If anyone else ever has the means, the opportunity and is seriousness about putting together another one some time, then by all means, we'll all be ecstatic.

So, to the fandom, the ball is where is has always been, in our court.

Greg Bishansky - [<----- Gathering 2009]

Landon> I see what you're saying, but the thing is, by now, none of us non "old-money" (as Ron puts it) members of the fandom really WANT to be involved anymore. It kind of got ruined for us. I mean, I haven't been near this place in years. I was driven away quite effectively along with MANY others. I know that the cliquishness of this place has been an ongoing issue, but rather than address it, the older, core members of the fandom have chosen to believe that if you were driven away, it MUST be because you did something to deserve it. It's hard to make headway with people who won't acknowledge their own prejudices and need to maintain their status as "original" fandom members.
Todd Blankenship

CrzyDemona: Thank you. I appreciate all the work you and every Gathering staffer has done to keep not just the Gathering but the franchise alive. I understand the money problem, but it shouldn't be surprising that there's less attendance this year. People are losing jobs, and like in my case, can't find a job-and LA is probably not the easiest place to get to for most fans. We simply can't afford it.

I'm just saying it's really not fair of the staff to tell us this so close to the convention, where it will almost be impossible for most people who are tight on cash to be able to afford to go for their last chance. We need a little more notice than that.

And like I suggested, why does it have to permanently end? Maybe there doesn't have to be a 2010 convention, so why not the next one in 2011, or even 2012. I'm sure it's frustrating, but you also have to keep the bad economy in mind. I feel that if the con permanently dies, than the whole franchise won't be much far behind, and I don't think that's something anyone wants.


CrzyDemona - Thanks for the info. That spells it out pretty clearly, although attendance numbers might help drive the point home.

I don't pretend to be familiar with the politics around here, but people complaining about how things have been run should see this as an opportunity. Plan a convention, or heck, just plan a party at Perkins. Get as back-to-the-basics as you want. Create a pool to invite Greg or Frank Paur or whoever. Or make it fan-only. Next year you'll be the only game in town.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

S8 has always been an old-money-only chatroom, ever since I joined the fandom however many years ago. If you're not established as one of the old guard nobody wants anything to do with you. That's also reflected in the art contest sites, people put a lot of heart into what they do but in the end it comes down to a popularity contest. I'm sad to see the Gathering go, but it's hardly a surprising event.
Ron Smith

Jen> I'll have fun with this and address the easiest one to attack:

"We're seriously in the red this year."

Um... DUH! You know why you're in the red partially? Here's a great guess: WHAT does "Spiderman" have to do with "Gargoyles"? There's part of your ability to be "in the red".

And strangely, a conversation with Siryn (see: Gathering 2002 Chair) that weekend plus reports from previous conventions show that any time the con is in the red, you seem to be somewhere near the helm? Coincidence?

I'm gonna be frank here: I don't asskiss. You and your "clique" have shown a dislike for anyone that doesn't kiss you or your cliques ass. Anyone who wants to take over won't be ALLOWED because it would mean the regular people who've been in control will no longer be, and if the new people running it excel, then it makes you look like a failure, and you can't have that, CAN YOU?

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Jen posted: "We've tried pulling in fresh blood to help, but most people, like yourself... are a lot of talk."

Umm....actually that's really not true. You guys aren't too welcoming of new blood that doesn't fit into your clique. I know no one'll admit this but it's true. I watched it happen time and time again, and I know I was treated shabbily and I didn't even do anything to deserve it. I never understood that elitest mentality certain members of you have, but it kept me away from the gatherings just like it (until now) kept me away from the website. Why would I want to give any money to hang out with people who have no interest in including me?

Todd Blankenship

PurpleGoldfish - All I can say is sorry. So much money that goes into the Gathering comes out of the staff's own pockets. We are seriously in the red this year and there is simply no way that we can afford to keep it going.

We had full intentions of doing a 2010 convention, but we are going to be hit hard by the low attendance this year to the point that we can't possibly do it again next year. We tried everything we could to try to make the numbers work, but we were just putting too much financial responsibility on ourselves.

... it's not a convention if no one shows up.

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe - I don't even know why I'm addressing your crazy uniformed rant with any sort of answer. But here it goes anyway:

"The reason these Gatherings aren't continuing, I can pretty much 100% confirm, is that people who shouldn't have power have too much, and those that don't should."

I would say you're 100% wrong. It's 100% the economy and fan apathy. We'd love to keep doing them, but the financial strain is too much for us. If you'd like to start your own Gargoyles convention, please feel free to do so. If you are able to do it without sinking your own money into it, I'll be surprised. (and if you can get Frank Paur there, I'll be even MORE surprised).

"(Whatever happened to FRANK PAUR?)"

He's been a guest of every Gathering I've chaired or vice-chaired. I think that right there shows you know nothing about what you're saying.

"Continuing on this is Greg's #1 Fan, Jennifer "Crzy Demona" Anderson, who quite frankly has more stroke in this fandom than she even deserves. I mean, what did she ever do? SERIOUSLY, I ask. Drew a couple pretty pictures"

I have stroke? EXCELLENT! What did I do? Hmmm... well, I busted my as for the past decade to make the Gathering the best it can be. Even when not directly involved in the con-staff, I have been President of the corporation behind it since 2001. ... and I still occasionally draw pretty pictures, thanks! I'm not Greg's #1 Fan. He's my best friend. I'm sorry if you subscribe to the "Harry Met Sally" school of relationships that men and women cannot be friends. I'm not even going to touch the rest of the crap you posted about us, because I KNOW you haven't SEEN anything and are only going by ridiculous rumors and being a slanderous toad.

"IN closing, we all know who's to blame, and why, and what could be done to fix it... but since no one has the BALLS to do anything about it, then why worry. Things will never change because those who rule the roost won't let others change it, and would rather it die than continue on under different leadership, direction, vision, and whathaveyou."

If you have the balls, please feel free to start your own Gargoyles convention. We've tried pulling in fresh blood to help, but most people, like yourself... are a lot of talk. JUST talk. Nothing substantial and supportive or helpful to offer. Just plenty of bitching and speculation on things you know nothing about.

Let's see, the only Gathering you attended was in 2002? Did you attend others? Did you support the convention fully? Are you a registered member this year? Are you going to donate money to the convention?

... yeah, I thought so.

"Landon> Don't count on the truth ever being explained by those in charge. Ever."

We don't owe anyone any answers, any apologies, anything at all. We've worked our asses off for a decade to bring this convention to you all, and everyone is keen to say "Maybe next year". Well, the lack of THIS year's attendance, means there won't be any NEXT year's attendance, and that's really the bottom line... literally.

I'll be happy to answer everyone else's questions, but Nick is not getting another moment of my time. Absolutely OFF his rocker. WOW!

Jennifer "CrzyDemona" Anderson
"I would appreciate it if one person on this boat would not assume I'm an evil, lecherous hump." - Malcom Reynolds, FIREFLY

Purplegoldfish> I really wish I'd known, too. I don't know if I'd have been able to go anyway, since I still would have lost my job, but I sure would've put enough money aside before I got laid off to go. Whether I'd have gone through that money in the interim is up for debate, but I'd at least have had it saved up in hopes that I'd be able to make it.
Kerry (Kth) Boyd

Landon> Don't count on the truth ever being explained by those in charge. Ever.
"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Matt: "I'd like to hear from the Staff exactly WHY this is the last Gathering."

2nd. There might be some people that will want to plan a spiritual successor. For that to happen (and the for the good of the fandom) there needs to be complete transparency.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]


I was already thrilled to be going, but now... geeez.

I'd like to hear from the Staff exactly WHY this is the last Gathering.

Matt - [St Louis, Missouri, USA]
"I hide in plain sight. The demons do it all the time." - John Castaway, 'Estranged'

I'm sorry to hear that this will be the last Gathering, but at least it's going out with a bang, with Marina Sirtis for a guest.
Todd Jensen

Wow... I didn't see this coming...
The One Known As Mochi - [shogi dot keima dot 08 at gmail dot com]
Current Mood: (>O.O)> WTF...

I'm suddenly feeling really mad about this. Why are we hearing about this now all of a sudden? Couldn't we have been told this a year ago so some of us could save up for the LAST GATHERING?? If I had known, I would have made sure to save up. I mean we are kind of in the middle of a recession here.

Surely if there was a problem there are enough people in the fandom willing to help. Why must it be canceled altogether? Why not have a Gathering every other year if it's too much to handle each year?

I mean someone coming in here with this "oh yeah by the way.." end to the Gathering doesn't seem right. Could we please get some sort of explanation at least??

I'm really upset about this not just because I'll never get the chance to go, but it feels like the beginning of the end.



For those of you who don't know me, I'm Nick Sharpe. Been in the fandom for about a decade. For those of you who DO know who I am, I can sense y'all are already trying to figure out who can delete this post.

Now, in the past decade of being in the fandom, I've made many friends, many enemies, and had many long and shot lasting relationships. All of which is thanks to the amazing fandom/family that surrounds Gargoyles. I've seen what happens when the fandom joins together for the better to try to get Disney to open their jackass ears (free t-shirts and bookbags! I still use mine as my gearbag for shows), and I've seen when the fandom decides to in-feud, causing mass casulties and distancing long time fandom members.

The fact the Gatherings will no longer contiue after this year saddens me because every year there's always either something cool that happens, or something bad, either which way, something HAPPENS. And for a fandom dedicated to a show that first took to air a decade and a half ago, that's saying something (anyone seen a transformers convention? Ok then).

WITH THAT SAID, I've been around long enough to hear the stories, hear the rumors, see things with my own two eyes, and hear things with my own two ears. I've also been in the convention business about as long.

The reason these Gatherings aren't continuing, I can pretty much 100% confirm, is that people who shouldn't have power have too much, and those that don't should.

See, the gatherings started as a way to continue to enjoy Gargoyles, but in the last few years, it switched from praise for "Gargoyles" to "Yearly Group To Inflate Greg Weisman's Ego". Let's face it, when it comes right down to it, everyone practically worships him for creating Goliath, Xanatos, Lexington, Broadway, etc. etc. And while this is SOMEWHAT warranted, too many people who were also part of the process of making the show what it was are virtually IGNORED (Whatever happened to FRANK PAUR?).

Continuing on this is Greg's #1 Fan, Jennifer "Crzy Demona" Anderson, who quite frankly has more stroke in this fandom than she even deserves. I mean, what did she ever do? SERIOUSLY, I ask. Drew a couple pretty pictures, and became the official bodygaurd/sheath for Greg (you know the rumors, some have seen the facts, some know dead on what I'm talking about).

Then you have the conglomerate of utter self-serving fan-artists who control various parts of the fandom, and then tell people what's good, what's not, who deserves what and who doesn't without being worth anything in the big picture, only running what they can so they can demean and browbeat others because it's the only thing in their lives that gives them any meaning or pleasure because, let's face it, their lives suck. (Kythera of Avenern I'm pointing in your general direction.) I'll point to the death of MGC as the biggest "WELL LOOK AT THIS PROOF HERE".

IN closing, we all know who's to blame, and why, and what could be done to fix it... but since no one has the BALLS to do anything about it, then why worry. Things will never change because those who rule the roost won't let others change it, and would rather it die than continue on under different leadership, direction, vision, and whathaveyou.

To those who've been members of the fandom, gone to the Gatherings, bought all the memorabilia and clothes that Disney only puts out ever 18th Blue Moon (Why? Because, despite the Adult Gargoyle community, Gargs doesn't sell SEX to CHILDREN), you've done all you can, and will continue to becasue you're the ones who actually give two sh*ts about all this.

And to those of you who've poisoned the well, and are leading to the destruction.... well, I got a pair of middle fingers for you, and a good loud "F-Off!"

*steps down from his soapbox, and goes back about his day, saddened by the hypocracy and stupidity*

"The Suicide Messiah" Nick Sharpe
"Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions." ~ Roddy Piper

Could Elisa tell if Xanatos was up to no good?
Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

I'll repost this from last week in case people are now reassessing whether they can afford to go or not.

Hostels are a cheap and easy way to stay anywhere if you're willing to sleep in a dorm-like environment (i.e. sharing a sleeping space with strangers). http://www.hostels.com has a lot of locations

Look here for example: http://www.bananabungalow.com/ A friend and I will be staying at the Hollywood location. You can get as cheap as $32 per person per night in a dorm. And it looks nicer than many motels in the area at 2-3 times the price (except for the dorm part). I can't vouch for Banana Bungalow, but I've had great luck with hostels in the past. Don't expect AC though.

The best part is that you can catch the red line half a mile away at Hollywood and Vine and be dropped off right at Universal Studios: http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/red_line.htm The Hilton is only 4 miles from the hostel, but the walk is uphill and borders the 101, so I'm going to take the short subway trip back and forth. The last train leaves Universal City at 12:58a on the weekends: http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/bus_overview/images/802.pdf

One more note: while trying to attract former Northwest Airlines WorldPerks Visa card members over to Delta, American Express is giving 20,000 miles to new card holders. I won't link to it or recommend it, but new reward credit cards can be very useful for travelers if you're smart and responsible.

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Well that settles it . . . I'll be signing up for sure by week's end. For me, its just going to be a whether I'll be able to afford both Trades and the TSS-M DVD for a blitz of autographs when I get there d:
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

:( :(

I'm sad to hear this...

Battle Beast - [Canada]
That is all I will say.

I'm resisting the urge to jump to conclusions about why this year's Gathering will be the last one. (Though I can't resist the urge to quote the line from the "Gargoyles 2198"plan "Someone should have told the gargoyles that thirteen is NOT a lucky number.") I figure if the problem was no bids for the 2010 Gathering, I would suspect we would have seen a lot more posts in here asking if anyone wanted to put together a bid for the 2010 Gathering before the decision was made to end the convention with this year's event.

I can think of several other possible reasons why the Gathering will not be continuing into the future, but I'll hold my tongue and wait until someone with information direct from the source chooses to say something.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

This year's con is the last one? Let me guess . . there have been 0 bids for next year's convention.
Whatever happened to simplicity?

Re: Bad Guys: That should have been "off to the printer". My bad.
Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]

Wait, what?? the last convention?? Damn it now I'm even more depressed that I can't go. And I was working on for saving up for next year too :(

Since this is the last convention I really want to go. Please let me know if anyone wants to split a room. I can book it then you pay me later in cash. I think thats how it works. If anyone else has split rooms before, let me know. I think I added my email as a link. If I didnt, respond in this room.
Lurker - [johnr783 at hotmail dot com]

Wow, congrats. Getting Marina Sirtis is a serious coup (any Trek regular would be). I'll be checking for site updates so I can post it. It could be used to generate a lot of attention if we get the word out to enough key sites.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

In this issue: Marina Sirtis! Guest Update! Hotel Reminder! Dates to Remember!

All good things...

From 1997 to 2009, the fans of Gargoyles have pulled together to celebrate the show we love so much. Our camaraderie has been a joy and an inspiration. In the twelve years since that first small convention in New York City, many of us have forged lifelong friendships, grown both personally and professionally, and taken away unique experiences from the phenomenon that is Gargoyles fandom.

But, just as a gargoyle can no more stop protecting the castle than breathing the air, eventually all good things must come to an end.

We, the fans, have all taken Gargoyles full circle. It is with bittersweet regret that the staff of The Gathering of the Gargoyles announces that this year's convention will be the last. Thirteen conventions have made for a run lasting longer than many of us ever imagined when we gathered for the first time in 1997, and for that we should all be very proud. But do not despair, as we are most certainly going out with a bang!

We are very happy - no, we are ecstatic - to announce that joining us for our final outing will be none other than the voice of Demona herself, **Marina Sirtis!** She joins an all-star guest list that already includes Gargoyles voice actors Keith David (Goliath), Bill Fagerbakke (Broadway), Thom Adcox (Lexington), and Elisa Gabrielli (Obsidiana). And lest we forget, Greg Weisman, the creator of the show, will be joining us, as well, along with at least a dozen other guests from the Gargoyles writing and production team.

So please join us in our last hurrah, our shout in the night, our 13th Annual and final Gathering of the Gargoyles. This will be the one to remember. This will be your last chance to experience The Gathering before it's all over for good. It's not too late to grab it. Let's make this a party to remember!

To register, visit: http://www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com/g2009/registration.html

Convention Guest Update:

As revealed above, The Gathering of the Gargoyles is delighted to announce that Marina Sirtis, voice of Demona on Gargoyles and Star Trek: The Next Generation's Counselor Deanna Troi, will be one of our many special guests!

Newly confirmed special guests from Gargoyles and The Spectacular Spider-Man also include:

Bill Fagerbakke - Voice of Broadway (G)
Vanessa Marshall - Voice of Mary Jane Watson (S)
Joey Mason - Color Supervisor / Background Painter (G)
Doug Murphy - Storyboard Artist (G)
Daran Norris - Voice of J. Jonah Jameson (S)

Our complete guest list now features over 30 industry professionals, with even more to be announced in the coming weeks! As always, for complete details, please visit:


Hotel Information:

The Gathering 2009 will take place August 21-24, 2009 at the fabulous Hilton in Universal City, located at the main entrance to Universal Studios Hollywood and Universal CityWalk!

Hilton Los Angeles / Universal City
555 Universal Hollywood Drive
Universal City, California, 91608
Telephone: 1-818-506-2500
Toll free: 1-800-HILTONS

The Hilton is offering a block rate of $159 per night (double occupancy) to Gathering attendees who call for reservations by July 23, 2009. Please mention that you are with "The Gathering of the Gargoyles" when calling to receive this special rate. For more information and a link for online reservations, please visit:


The Hilton has informed us that our room block is filling up fast, so please don't delay in making your plans to join us!

Dates to Remember:

July 23, 2009 - Deadline for hotel reservations at the Hilton Los Angeles / Universal City to receive the Gathering's discounted block rate.

July 31, 2009 - Final day of pre-registration.

August 7, 2009 - Deadline for Music Video Contest submissions.

August 21 - 24, 2009 - The 13th Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles.

Questions? Comments? Contact us at: staff@gatheringofthegargoyles.com

- The Gathering 2009 Staff

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]

Apparently, lions are eating the server as I attempt to post the latest Gathering Newsletter. Please forgive this content-less post as it is mostly a test to figure out if the length of my message is too long for the comment room.

Otherwise, I've had news that Bad Guys is off to the publisher now. Hah.

Karine "Kanthara" Charlebois - [kanthara at gmail dot com]

Gargoyleslady> Elisa is investigating the disturbance at the Eyrie Buiding which she witnessed from the ground below. She isn't sure what happened, but she knows that the story she is getting from David Xanatos's faithful servant Owen Burnett doesn't fit with what she heard and saw. Owen is claiming that a generator exploded, but Elisa heard gunfire. She threatens to come back with a warrant if Owen doesn't allow her to continue her investigation, which would probably mean more attention and publicity than Xanatos wants. So Owen hands her off to Xanatos.

Xanatos tells her that Owen is confused and just gave her the story that Xanatos is using to explain what happened to the press. Owen is probably not confused. If Elisa had bought the story about the stolen generator, Xanatos would probably have been perfectly happy to let her believe it. But she isn't fooled, so Xanatos has to make her think he is telling her the real story so she will end her investigation. He tells her that his men stopped an invasion by a rival company attempting to steal technology from Xanatos's company. It's much closer to the truth than the story about the generator. Xanatos has just omitted the fact that "his men" are actually gargoyles. (He has also neglected to mention that the commandos who staged the attack are also his men, but we won't find that out until later.)

Elisa is still skeptical. Xanatos is a person, not a country, and it's countries that get invaded. Xanatos points out that his corporation is larger than many countries, implying that it is not so implausible that another company might resort to the tactics of war to steal his secrets and that he would need a well armed security force to counter such attacks.

Does Xanatos have permits for the weapons from the attack? I hadn't thought about it before. I doubt he would need permits for most of them, since the commandos are supposedly an invading force not connected to him. As I recall, he fires a weapon himself and unless it was some kind of top secret prototype, I would guess he would have a permit for than. And he may have obtained permits for all of the commandos' weapons as well as a backup plan, in case anyone decided to investigate the matter further. I just feel like Xanatos is too smart to be tripped up by something mundane like not having the correct weapons permits.

Owen tells Xanatos that there is an issue in the kitchen he needs to attend to. He refers to the gargoyles as "our new guests" because Elisa is still there and Xanatos doesn't want to reveal the gargoyles' existence to anyone else. Xanatos excuses himself and has Owen escort Elisa out, likely believing that her investigation will end there.

Before Owen takes her back to the elevators, Elisa notices Hudson on the castle wall across the courtyard. (I think it's across the courtyard anyway. It's been a while since I watched the episode.) She comments to Owen that she thought she saw the stone gargoyle move. At this point, she still believes that all gargoyles are just stone statues, so the idea the gargoyle she saw is actually alive is probably the furthest thing from her mind. She still suspects that there is something Xanatos is not telling her, as we'll see in a moment, but she doesn't suspect that she really did see a living gargoyle. Owen tries to chalk her concerns up to how spooky the old castle can be at night and escorts her to the elevator.

Maybe it was the strange stone gargoyle she saw. Maybe she still feels like Xanatos's story of a military styled invasion by another corporation doesn't add up. Maybe it was the claw marks she saw on the piece of stone that fell near her during the incident. Or maybe it's a combination of all of that. Whatever the reason, Elisa has decided that she needs to investigate further to get to the truth. If she's going to find out what really happened, she needs to be able to look around without Owen or Xanatos leading her away from whatever it is they don't want her to see. So Elisa waits for Owen to leave and stops the elevator at the castle level so she can continue her investigation unhindered.

Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]

PURPLEGOLDFISH - Yes, but the prospect of new material soon may not be as good as reviving the discussion as the new material itself.
Todd Jensen

I'm glad that the Nostalgia critic is reviewing Gargoyles. I'm not a major fan, but I know that his blog is hugely popular. I'm hoping that his review will bring in a lot of extra potential trade buyers.

Does anyone else think it's really sad that it's so dead in here when we'll be getting all new material so soon?


*Jurgan walks in with a wood post sign and hammers it into the ground. On the front is painted the words: Don't Feed the Trolls*

(Seriously, I'm not even going to say a name, but trolls want attention badly. Ignore them.)

In about 24 hours, the Nostalgia Critic should post his review of Gargoyles. They typically come late Tuesday night/early Wednesday morning. I'm a big fan, so I've been looking forward to this. Now, I warn everyone, he usually does negative reviews, so he'll probably find a lot of things to nitpick, but his brother/co-writer says they had trouble doing it because it's harder to review a good show. So I'm looking forward to some good publicity, mixed in with some good-natured ribbing. I've also been monitoring the message boards, trying to correct some misconceptions people had, like this gem:

"ALSO to set the record straight. Greg Weisman IS the one who came up with and created Gargoyles. He pitched the show to a few companies, but it was Disney who bought it. Seeing that adult animation in the 90's might be taking off, his original goal was for a lot darker show that would run along with shows like Invasion America, which was airing on the WB. This was due to the sudden Japanese animation invasion on sci-fi and a few Saturday morning channels, this is pre Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh. In the end he pitched it to Disney who offered him a slot on the Disney afternoon. Thus buying the rights from him and controlling the fate of the show. Weisman still is working to reclaim the rights or to come to a compromise with Disney so he can continue his idea. You can read all about it on Station 8.com"

Odd, that someone could have something so completely wrong, yet cite S8 to defend it.

Anyway, it should be pretty good- they're usually very funny, although this one will be more straight. Click my name for the site, and keep your eyes open, and maybe watch some of the others if you're interested (the Sonic the Hedgehog review is one of my personal favorites).

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

I haven't been able to figure this out at the beginning of Awakenings part 3: "Such an unfortunate accident. One of the castle's newly installed generators exploded. Mr. Xanatos is quite willing to pay for any damages that might have-"

"Mister Burnette, I heard automatic weapons firing up there! Now, you can let me look the place over or I can come back with a warrant and a lot more cops. It's your call."

Owen nods and beckons for Elisa to follow him. Xanatos comes into the room from wherever he's been.

"Detective Maza! I just called the Mayor to offer my profound apologies for what happened here!"

"I want to know exactly what's going on here, Mr. Xanatos. And please, don't tell me it's an exploding generator!"

"Owen's confused. That's the press. Truth is, my men repelled an invasion by a rival corporation trying to steal some of our new technology."

"Repelled an invasion?! You're a private citizen, Xanatos, not a country."

"Detective, I am the owner of a multinational corporation. Which is bigger than many countries you could name."

"I assume you have permits for the weapons I heard being fired up here."

"Of course." For all we know, Xanatos could be lying.

Owen comes out to inform Xanatos of a situation in the kitchen.

"Excuse me, Mr. Xanatos. There seems to be a problem in the kitchen with our new guests."

"I hope I've answered all your questions satisfactorily, Detective Maza. Owen will show you out. Excuse me."

"If you'll come with me."

Elisa notices Hudson on the castle wall and hesitates. Owen sees what she's looking at. "Is there a problem, Detective Maza?"

"That stone gargoyle up there. I could have sworn I saw it move."

"Yes, this old castle is rather spooky at night. I've thought the same thing more than once."

"Good night, Detective Maza."

"Good night."

Elisa thinks and stops the elevator at castle level.

"Sorry pal, but this investigation isn't over yet."

Gargoyleslady - [kendal dot renfro at yahoo dot com]

Nice . . . I think I'll actually start contributing to the queue (oh no!) with rambles for season two -- I kinda never finished the season one rambles, if I remember myself.

I guess it should be reminded that things in the CR should still have spoiler tags.

On a side note: Anyone catch Greg's ramble over the weekend? It was buried under a bunch of answered questions, but he mentioned going to the Oregon Shakespeare Festival where he saw a new play called 'Equivocation' Mixing Shakespeare and Guy Fawkes, I was quite mesmerized by the ramble he gave on it, and am 'this' close to buying the playscript on the OSF website.

"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Hey you sick fucks! It's been a while, so I'm just checking in to see whether you've screwed anything else up for Gargoyles lately. Let me know what you've managed to fuck up this time.
Gargoyles need not apply.

The first two episodes of season 2 are premiering tonight, Blueprints at 7:00 EDT and Destructive Testing at 7:30.

I found this recent tabloid pic from the set of Heroes funny: http://justjared.buzznet.com/gallery/photos.php?yr=2009&mon=06&evt=quinto-milo&pic=zachary-quinto-milo-ventimiglia-heroes-08.jpg

Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

Speaking of dates, anyone watching the premiere of TSS-M on Disney XD tonight? Is it just one or two eps tonight?
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka

Holy Crap! They are actually making a movie based on the stupid 2012 doomsday prediction. That's just great (sarcasm)


And it comes from the director of Independance Day and The Day After Tomorrow. That's even better (sarcasm again)

Warcrafter - [grafixfangamer1 at sbcglobal dot net]
Chuck Norris has never been denied anything. NOT EVEN REVENGE!!!

The Bad Guys date has some evidence behind it. From SLG: http://www.slgcomic.com/Pre-Order-Augsut-SLG-Comics_df_444.html "This book is on schedule to be in stores the first week of August." The July date from Amazon is bogus though. As far as I know, SLG has never been more specific than "before Comic-Con" for Volume 2. That would indicate one of the Wednesdays before th 29th. Amazon put the 29th up there after I submitted 'July 0, 2009' as the release date. It said August before, which had no factual basis.
Landon Thomas - [<- Gargoyles News Twitter Feed]

*Amazon.com * dates:

-- Gargoyles: Clan Building Volume 2 (July 29, 2009)
-- Gargoyles: Bad Guys Volume 1 (August 5, 2009)

* Diamond Comics * dates:

-- unknown currently

Keep your eyes on these two pages.


Each and every Monday afternoon at 2pm, PREVIEWSworld.com provides a list of new products arriving in comic shops for the following week!

So, if CB V2 is coming out 7/29 then you'll see it on "upcomingreleases" on 7/20 and "newreleases" on 7/27.

If BG V1 is coming out 8/5, then you'll see it on "upcomingreleases" on 7/27 and "newreleases" on 8/3.

Anthony Tini

Rebel> I don't think we have hard dates yet. What we know last I checked is that Clan Building Vol. 2 should be out next month in time for SDCC and Bad Guys is coming in August.
Demonskrye - [demonskrye(at)gmail(dot)com]


Could someone (who is a regular poster) take the dates for the trade paperbacks and put them in their signature, so it's easy to see what they are? I keep forgetting, and I don't want to bug everyone by asking.


Eighth! (I too have been trying to visit since early evening last night)
"The Suspense is Terrible . . . I Hope it Lasts" -- Willy Wonka



God, I wish I could afford the Gathering this year. What I wouldn't give to come visit L.A. again. :(

KingCobra_582 - [KingCobra582 at gmail dot com]
Grr. Arg.

Fifth. I couldn't access the page earlier, either. I thought it was just because of the thunderstorm, but I guess I was wrong.
"What if this wasn't a hypothetical question?"

(4th) FOUR!!!!
Vinnie - [tpeano29 at hotmail dot com]

Well, 3rd.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]


Has anyone else been having trouble getting on this morning?

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

room finally working.
Any word on a date for the comic?