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The Phoenix Gate

Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending December 11, 2022

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[SPOILER] You have to be a committed fan to remember someone who was a prominent character in one episode? [/SPOILER]

I had a look (see link below) and it seems there are Kambadais covers for #2 and #3 but they're a 10-cover incentive which I guess is why they weren't listed alongside covers A to F. Doubt my tiny store will order that many so I'll keep having to mail order from a bigger chain. Pity as I'd rather shop local.

(Incidentally, I really hope future blurbs won't give away the ending of the previous issues like this since they seem to be released several months in advance. Greg's so cagey about spoilers that I'm shocked at these - the one for #2 is basically, "Hey, here are the three biggest twists from #1 in a single sentence!" I get there's a need to hype but come on! Quite apart from anything else, you have to be a pretty committed fan in the first place for the name [SPOILER] Dominic Dracon [/SPOILER] to mean anything to you at all so I wonder what audience this is trying to get in - surely [SPOILER] an old enemy of Elisa [/SPOILER] or something would have more resonance for casual fans while preserving at least some air of mystery! Will have to take extra care to avoid these I guess.)


Craig: Great that you’re able to enjoy it now. [SPOILER] Really interesting catch on the claw swipe. It’s possible. I also think he did a good job of lightening the sky gradually across the second half of the book. [/SPOILER]

Matt: Glad you finally got to read it - great review! [SPOILER] My best guess as to when this is happening - based on the fact that Derek knew about Maggie’s condition at Hallowe’en, she wasn’t showing by 2 November - is that the child was conceived in July or August and we’re now either 20 April or 22 May 1997 (full moons) - either three or four months after “Phoenix”. Of course, this assumes that she had a human-length pregnancy… [/SPOILER]

FTMB: Lots of really fascinating points. It never occurred to me that [SPOILER] the baby might be human. Hmm. As for Lexington, my question is why would it benefit Xanatos to separate him out at this point. He certainly has potential as he’s incredibly intelligent but he’s also too distrustful to be a good business partner for David - and he might well uncover a little too much. However, the timeline predicts he’ll go into business in 1999. At this point Alex will be 3 years old but we saw from “Masque” that he is ageing at something like four times normal speed (maybe three times, I don’t have my copy to hand). So at this point, Alex may well be equivalent to a 12-year-old — a very bright and powerful 12-year-old. Is it more likely he goes into business with Alex than David or Fox? [/SPOILER]


From what I've read about the "super-heroes cause all the trouble" theory, one of its arguments seems to be that the super-villains' real motive is that they see the super-hero as the "heavyweight champion of the world" and want to defeat him so that they can claim the title. But they have to get him to fight them, so they embark on the crimes to force a confrontation with him. (I don't follow super-hero comics enough to know how often that happens, or if it happens at all.)

The Pack, as Jurgan commented, come closest to that in "Gargoyles", though in their case, it was more the thrill of hunting "exotic beasts" (and the gargoyles hadn't become the city's protectors yet).

Todd Jensen

Matthew> Yeah, I also find the hero responsible for villains to sometimes be a product of cynicism. Same kind that says heroes shouldn't be parents.

It's like people focus too much on the Gwen Stacys and forget about the Uncle Bens. You know the people (kids included) who suffer cause of crimes.


Forgot to say in response to Ed, but I also hope Kambadais gets to do a cover for each issue. As the main series artist who is redefining the visual style, it seems only right that he should. (And it helps that, having seen a full issue of his style—and especially now that Ed has helped me appreciate it properly in digital format—I am very much digging what he is doing.)

[SPOILER] "Maybe since Xanatos and Goliath had offspring, his programming require he feel the need to as well."

Ooh, that makes a lot of sense, he's always in competition with his fathers. I always liked the subtle detail that Xanatos started with a scheme to get $20,000 by sending a letter to himself, and Thailog started with a scheme to get exactly 1000 times that much by kidnapping himself. Also in Sanctuary he explicitly says he aims to be "on the same level as Xanatos" financially. [/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Oh crap, I am sorry.

am responding to Craig's and Matt's replies, but love I am not the only person who got curious about the Dracon stuff, and loved seeing all the speculation. [SPIOLER] I also noticed Lex's face and Elisa's noticing, after my seventh read of the digital version (I haven't even gotten my multiple copies of the physical version yet, so thank goodness for digital, plus the guided viewing Ed spoke of...you notice so many more details). I made me think of Brentwood going with Thailog, and only speculation but given what we know about LXM Corp existing in the future, and Fox's offer of a truce to Lex given Alex and the connection there, are we gonna see the Xanatos's sort of seducing Lex to them, taking advantage of his relative isolation? Are we gonna start seeing how that happens? Also I am very curious about Maggie and Derek's baby... was Sevarius actually capable of changing their gametes, or will this be a human child? I guess we will find out soon. Also hopefully what Thailog and Sev did with all that blood they extracted during the SLG run. Total side note, but appropriately for NYC, it seems the Mnhattan clan is the most diverse of all garg clans, esp thru their females (not including the Labyrinth clan of course). Speaking of the Manhattan Clan, who were originally all male, and Scottish, now the have 1. a HUMAN female. 2. a female raised out of time on the magical isle of Avalon; 3. a ghost in the shell robotic female (and of course her mate) 4. a Japanese female from feudal times. Wild stuff. I guess an honorable mention to an immortal female who now shapeshifts as a human LOL. Not sure if she still counts. [/SPOILER]

MATT - Thanks for the latest review. (Actually, we did get to see the clan as crime-fighters in the post-World Tour part of Season Two, both in "Turf" and at the start of "Hunter's Moon" when they foiled the subway robbery. But I agree that we didn't see it in "Clan-Building".)
Todd Jensen

Couldn't wait any longer for my copies to come in the mail and just went ahead and bought the digital copy on Amazon! My initial thoughts after a couple read throughs and without anyone else's thoughts to bias mine:

[SPOILER] SOOO good to have new material again. Halfway through reading, it really hit me. I love Gargoyles and I'm glad to continue to hear the story.

- We'd seen the opening pages before, but not with dialogue. Really interesting to see its all from Elisa's POV. I like that a lot. The theme is Manhattan and she's the longest resident of the main cast, so I like that she's our guide. I wonder if that's just this episode or if that will continue throughout. I kind of hope for the latter.

- Really nice to see the Clan back in their role as crime fighters in Manhattan. Not something we got to see in Clan Building or even since before the Avalon World Tour. Makes me curious when this is all happening. Late winter/early spring of 1997, I presume.

- I fully expect the car Lexington drives to be turned into a gargoyle-themed hot rod and sold as a toy by next Christmas. : )

- And we get Elisa's rendition of our opening theme. It'd be funny to hear Salli Richardson's version of it. Ha!

- Goliath and Elisa are in full on boyfriend/girlfriend mode. No hesitation, no reservation, no beating around the bush. It's a new era and it's great to see it develop! And Brook's line about an "impressionable minor" is both hilarious and poignant. So great to have a youngster in the Clan. Clan Building really lived up to the name. The Clan is healing and rebuilding from the Wyvern Massacre. Generations of gargoyles, males and females, old and young (and an egg!). Notably absent in this episode were the Clan's beasts, however.

- All the "snogging". Love is in the air. Goliath/Elisa, Brooklyn/Katana, Broadway/Angela, Coldstone/Coldfire. None for Lex though. I smiled at Gnash's reply to Lex about snogging being "British for kissing" and Lex's response "Good to know." Yeah, I'll bet there is a certain Brit you might want to be snogging, Lex. In fact, Lex appears to be irritated that everyone else is getting some love. And it looks like Elisa notices it too. I'm hopeful this can be developed more in the issues to come.

- Looks like a rookery has already been established for the Manhattan Clan! Wish we could see it. Perhaps soon.

- Crazy to get appearances of Dracon and Brod and a follow up on "Turf". I was not expecting that. And nice to have a more "grown up" feel to the whole issue with mentions of drug labs and whatnot. Coldstone and Coldfire versus organized crime is new and interesting. And Coldstone's continued reluctance to protect the humans is interesting. Cool that he's not an enemy and yet still not completely on board with the Clan's purpose just as we first saw back in 994. I'd like to see more of his viewpoints on this and his take on Elisa in particular.

- Maggie is in labor! Should be interesting to see what her child looks like. Are the mutates their own species now? Did the mutagenic formula affect sperm and egg cells? It'd be funny if Thailog had all this interest in the kid and it ends up being a normal human baby. Not sure what his interest in adopting the child is. That is something he's never expressed an interest in before. Maybe since Xanatos and Goliath had offspring, his programming require he feel the need to as well.

I'd really given up hope on Gargoyles. So glad I was wrong! And so glad to be back. Never the End! [/SPOILER]

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

[SPOILER] Sorry for the double post. A subtle moment I hadn’t noticed before is that when Lex is giving (jealous?) side eye to the couples (Broadway/Angela and Brooklyn/Katana), Elisa is looking at Lex and seemingly noticing what is going on with him. I think this is Elisa’s detective skills and ability to read people coming to the fore, and gives me all the more reason to worry that conflict is brewing within the clan.

I might be wrong on this, but it looks to me like Kambadais did a subtle tribute to the old “claw-swipe” motif in the last two panels, in the shadowing on Elisa’s jacket. If intentional, very cool touch. [/SPOILER]


Whoa, thanks, Ed! That is way more info than I was ever expecting (in a good way!). I didn’t know about the guided view option (probably should have googled it) and was just manually zooming pages, which was glitchy and obnoxious. This is a game changer. I think I still prefer reading the physical issues because I’m a traditionalist, and as you say, seeing the layout choices is easier to appreciate on the page. But also as you say, the art is crisper and more pure and just plain brighter on the screen. It’s also helpful that I can avoid tarnishing my physical copies with wear and tear by using the digital copy when I want to go back and check something, now that I know how to “properly” interact with it.

Do we know if there will be a Kambadais cover each issue? There are clearly more variants for #2 than the announced 6 (I've linked one I've found below) but I can't find any confirmation that Kambadais' will be one and I guess the fact that he's not one of the A to F ones suggests he may not. I hope so as his may now be my favourite.

Todd: I agree, it’s a really good starting point.

B: Yes - I wonder about all those many people who have been regulars on this board at different over the years, some for many years at a stretch. I do hope they learn about the comic and, who knows, even check back in sometime.

Craig: I missed this question earlier but you asked about viewing the digital issues. I read on Amazon on my MacBook and I use the Guided View feature. If you load it in Safari, the Guided View makes the panels full-page.

Gargoyles’ #1 does have a problem with its Guiding though: the transitions between panels don’t seem to have been done carefully enough so often, even within a page, the image fades up from black. That makes it a much choppier experience than usual which is a pity - usually it glides from panel to panel really smoothly. But hopefully it’s something that can be fixed fairly swiftly (in fact, I may drop them a line and ask). It’s irritating but not a major concern for me.

I appreciate that for a ‘purist’ it might feel wrong to use Guided View but I love it.

You see absolutely crystal clear zoomed in images of each panel. George Kambadais’ artwork here especially looks really majestic but most art does. Not only do you get the bigger size but you get the brightness of backlighting which George’s colours particularly benefit from. Compared to the physical book, several pages are significantly more impressive on screen - [SPOILER] the Labyrinth scenes with the backlighting from the water and the city scenes with all that bright electric lighting, especially the splash on pages 2-3 where the fold of the page falls in an irritating place [/SPOILER]. And perhaps Greg’s stories benefit as well more than any as he’s so precise about background details, with even obscure company logos paying off, that you want to be able to take all that goodness in.

There are a only a couple of drawbacks I can see. Occasionally the page layouts don’t suit this format - “Fables” was the main one which would often have tall, thin panels or complex page layouts that didn’t ‘guide’ well. But the biggest issue is that it can distort your appreciation of the storytelling in one important respect: small panels often appear much bigger so the massive splashes lose their impact and are sometimes less impressive if the aspect ratio isn’t as favourable or there’s lots of hard-to-see detail. This can sometimes give a kind of reverse impact from the actual pages. (I sometimes think e-comics should be cultivated as a discrete medium and comics designed specifically with panels fitting a standard 2:1 screen so you can just flip from one page to the next - a kind of half-way house between animation and traditional comics.)

However, the trade-off for me is completely worth it. The comic just looks so good like this and it’s by far the most comfortable way to absorb the story - especially if, hopefully, I’m going to be reading these at 5 in the morning before work and especially as my eyes aren’t what they used to be. And I’m very much a digital book person now. I love not having to store thousands of books, or lug books back and forth from the library or on holiday, plus I really enjoy being able to annotate on a beach in the summer and pull up the notes mid-conversation two years later with a few taps on my phone.

But that’s just first reading. Second reading for me is full-page mode to appreciate the artist’s layout choices. Third reading for ‘Gargoyles’ is the actual issues to see what it looks like in print.

Since then, I’ve tended to stick to full page mode on this issue because it’s faster to flip back and forth to study individual scenes. However, when I revisit this and other issues I’d usually expect to do it in Guided View.


'Actually that's something Gargoyles does incredibly well, establish villains motivations outside the presence of its heroes. In "Awakening" alone we get greed (Hakon and the Vikings), desire for revenge fueled by bigotry (Demona and the Captain), and desire for power and affluence (Xanatos).'

The only real exception I can think of is The Pack, whose sole motivation at first is that they think taking down a gargoyle sounds fun. Though they're also tied in with Xanatos's more pragmatic goals, and they all eventually get more depth except Wolf. Wolf, last we saw, was still only motivated by revenge and the "thrill of the hunt," leading to the only Gargoyles episode I actively dislike.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

It's nice to see several commenters being more active here now that the comics are coming out!

[SPOILER] While the "mundane crime" part of "Gargoyles" didn't grab me as much as the more fantastic elements (particularly the ones linked with myth and legend and the gargoyles' medieval roots), I think it was a good idea to have the organized crime element be the focus of the external conflict in this issue (and presumably the succeeding ones). Fist, it's a good way of easing people new to "Gargoyles" into the setting (much like how, in the first season, the fantastic elements apart from the gargoyles were small - which didn't matter because a major focus was the gargoyles adjusting to the modern world; their response to it was one of my favorite elements of the first season). Second, the last two "Gargoyles" stories (the Stone of Destiny one and the Timedancer one) focused more on the "legend and history" side of "Gargoyles", and so it makes a good change of pace to shift to the more "down-to-earth" elements. Not to mention that I was also curious about what would happen to the organized crime scene with both Dracon and Brod behind bars.

The gang battle scene, by the way, felt like a bit of a contrast to "Turf". When Dracon and Brod are fighting each other in the prison, and the gargoyles show up, Dracon and Brod decide to go after the gargoyles first and return to fighting each other afterwards. This time around, their men decide that the gargoyles can wait and concentrate on wiping each other out first. (Dracon and Brod's approach in "Turf" struck me as the more advisable strategy - deal with the common foe first, and then you'll have the luxury of resuming your quarrel.) [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] The thing that surprises me about Dracon is that he's really young - in his 20s. Seemingly we're going to start to see a little more of how that came to be with his broader family and that intrigues me. I get the impression that Dracon inherited an infrastructure rather than having to build it and so if he loses it, does he really have the skills to start over? Still no reference to his parents that I recall - I wonder if they're still alive? This might be a reason for his uncle to be a threat to him if he stands to inherit the family business and exclude Tony. Another aspect to consider is that, in "Spectacular Spider-Man", the crime world quite quickly became infiltrated by supervillains. As of now, the crime plotline is still pretty mundane except for the superpowered weapons. However if someone like Thailog wanted to move into this world, I imagine Brod would be a far more promising partner than Dracon - more of an out-of-the-box thinker. Or if Sevarius is still freelancing, Brod would be more likely to seek his services. Either way, I feel like Tony could soon be really out of his depth. [/SPOILER]

Actually that's something Gargoyles does incredibly well, establish villains motivations outside the presence of its heroes. In "Awakening" alone we get greed (Hakon and the Vikings), desire for revenge fueled by bigotry (Demona and the Captain), and desire for power and affluence (Xanatos).

Truthfully, I hardly ever by into the "supervillains rise to challenge superheroes" bit because it falls into the correlation equals causation fallacy. And doing so is more lazy cop-out by writers who don't want to flesh out their villains beyond the surface.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

There's a common complaint in superhero stories that the heroes motivate supervillains to rise and challenge them, and that they ultimately cause more damage than they prevent. That's why villains like Dracon are important. He'd still be doing his thing with or without the gargoyles, so it's good to see they're making a positive impact by putting him away. [SPOILER] Although it's also often observed that taking down a mob kingpin creates a power vacuum that does a lot of short term harm. The plot of the Spider-Man PS4 game was instigated by the arrest of Wilson Fisk, and we're now seeing something similar in Gargoyles. [/SPOILER]
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

[SPOILER] As much as I love mob movies like The Godfather and Goodfellas, the mafia/Dracon episodes (“Protection,” “Turf”) tended to be the least interesting to me. I think because Tony tends to play as a straight-up sleazy bad guy without the nuance of Xanatos, Demona, Macbeth, etc. Even Hakon felt like he had a teeny bit more depth than Tony. But I’m hoping the comics will change that, and we’re starting to get hints of that already. Plus, I loved “The Silver Falcon” for its noir elements, so the thought of seeing Dominic again is exciting. [/SPOILER]

Been ages since I have been here but am freaking out about new Gargoyles content. Other than being happy about it I don't have much to add other than character observations, one being Angela. going to try to put this under spoiler tags (tho literally WHY aren't you getting this digital too, honestly)
[SPOILER] I know Angela is naive and very earnest. but I felt like we got quite a bit of her seriousness in this short issue. Brooklyn made a pretty light joke and she was quick to correct (with Broadway backing her up)...A lot of fans wanted her and Brooklyn to hook up but his sense of humor and personality....doesn't mesh with her that well.) So I thought it was interesting, maybe shades of a young Demona. Or perhaps a young Goliath even, taking things more serious than they need to be. I'd like to see more of Katana, she seems to be more of a stern, non nonsense yet accepting wife supporting role for now. Cant say too much there. Obviously Gnash is restless in his new place, seems due to circumstances he's "stuck" with Lex as his primary companion...and maybe Lex is stuck too....am a little surprised Lex spent a good two, maybe three months in London with the London Clan and never heard the term snogging, but okay. Maybe that was a HINT and I'm being to serious LOL. Maybe that's a hint towards "Amp". I really like the artwork, and no one much has brought this up, but I am legitimately curious about Dracon's apparent second thoughts about his uncle and Dominic getting out of prison. I am kinda looking forward to this arc in particular, speaking as someone who never cared all that much about the mafia angle in the show. I want to know whats up with Tony! [/SPOILER]


Matthew: Good question on how long to keep spoiler tagging. A week sounds reasonable to me.

Craig: On artists, the difficulty with SLG was that there were so many artists - was it 7 in 12 issues of "Clan-Building"! I think the comic really needs some consistency.

It goes without saying that Karine, Greg Guler and Christopher Jones were terrific: the holy trinity of 'Gargoyles' artists. I also think David Hutchinson did a particularly terrific job with "Tyrants". And what really helped with #7-12 was Robby's colours. Robby and Stephanie Lostimolo really did the definitive "Gargoyles" colours. I'll be sad if we don't eventually see them again.

However, I think if you look at what Dynamite is trying to achieve at this specific moment, I really think George Kambadais is the perfect artist.

His style feels really fresh and modern but it's also distinctive from other people's work out there. It's kinetic, it's charismatic, it's bright. Masterdramon said he was reminded of Sean Galloway from SSM and I agree. He's faithful to the characters but does give them a distinctive twist - there's nobody quite like it out there. His take on the characters is streamlined enough that hopefully it will be possible to keep to the schedule but he doesn't lose what's unique about them either. Already he had dozens of characters to keep on top of and he's done a really good job.

While the best of the SLG books felt like they perfectly recreated the look of the 90s show, this feels like the way 'Gargoyles' might look if it were animated right now. And I think that's absolutely the right choice to bring in, with luck, the broader audience the book needs to survive.

Jurgan: [SPOILER] Great points about other people's views of the Goliath/Elisa relationship and the "drug lab" language. [/SPOILER]

B: Really interesting comments. [SPOILER] Oh, that's a new one to me - I never heard Broadway would become second. I'm surprised. I would have thought perhaps Angela. I'm not sure a more edgy Othello is new territory - he's always been easily turned against Goliath after all. I didn't expect Coldstone and Coldfire to rejoin the clan and I wonder if their return won't be permanent. [/SPOILER]


[SPOILER] A question that just occurred to me…where exactly are Coldstone and Coldfire going when they leave to “recharge”? They appear to be leaving the castle/Eyrie Building. [/SPOILER]

Craig> Didn't know that. Pretty cool and at the same time chilling how much time passed since then.

One of the coolest parts of the Voices from the Eyrie podcast is definitely getting to actually hear Zehra Fazal as Shari briefly in that intro. Issue 4 of the Marvel comic actually has a letter from her in the letters column when she was a child in the 1990s. It’s so cool that she gets to actually be part of the series in some way. And that I now have a voice for Shari when I read the comics.

No, wait a minute - found it; it was in my comments on the Fleecs cover of #3.

Incidentally, I finally got to listen to the first episode of the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast, and to anyone here who hasn't heard it yet, I highly recommend it. While most of the material in it is familiar (such as how they came up with "Gargoyles", especially the part about it being inspired by "Adventures of the Gummi Bears"), it was very enjoyable to listen to. They even briefly discussed the Goliath reference in the series finale of the "DuckTales" reboot. (One major change, of course, since that podcast aired; since then, Disney has indeed revived "Gargoyles" via the comic.) And the opening sequence ([SPOILER] a combination of Shari's "The tale is told..." with Goliath's "One thousand years ago..." narration [/SPOILER]) is definitely a must-hear.

Todd Jensen

B - Um, when was this? I looked through all my posts in the comment room this week, and haven't found the word "whom" anywhere in them.
Todd Jensen

Todd Jensen> It's depressing that this is notable these days, but thank you for the correct use of "whom".

I've noticed that there aren't any reviews up yet in the "Ask Greg" queue; I wonder if readers have held back for the moment to avoid posting spoilers.

[SPOILER] JURGAN - Thanks for the proposed identifications of the animals on the Fleecs cover. I'd suspected that the pigeons might have been modeled on the Goodfeathers (as I've mentioned before, I've enjoyed imagining a possible encounter between them and the gargoyles - no doubt becoming the Goodfeathers' big nightmare), but hadn't noticed the similarity between the cat and Oliver until you mentioned it. Looking ahead at the Fleecs cover for #3, I'm now wondering whether the dog whom Goliath's meeting on it was modeled on Nana from "Peter Pan".

And the aforementioned "superstitious cowardly lot" bit could give the "Batman: the Musical" scene in "Batman Beyond" some competition for funniest use of that phrase.


Todd Jensen

[SPOILER] Did some etymological research on the use of "snogging." Apparently the term goes as early as 1945 but only became a more widely used term somewhere in the mid 1950's and was a common expression during the '60s. So I think it's safe to assume that Brooklyn and the gang probably spent some time in England post 1950.

Now I'm just imagining Brooklyn, Katana, Gnash and Fu-Dog trying to blend in with London's Mod culture. [/SPOILER]

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

I did not know that Hook had an adaptation. I think.

So occasional stuff aside, my default Spider-Man continuity is Spider-Girl.

A baby was once part of Peter and MJ's backstory too until shortsighted editorials demanded that Spider-Man is Peter Pan instead of Peter Parker.:-p

Except Pan grew up to be Robin Williams. Oh and Hook actually had a four issue Marvel adaptation.


Dang, missed the closing slash in the second spoiler block. Oh well, anyone reading the issue solicitations knows Maggie and Talon's baby is involved in the story.

Ed> [SPOILER] The Illuminati would mostly likely have had it invented, not found it. It fits the high-tech of secretive organizations in the Gargoyles setting. [/SPOILER]

Yes, Call the Midwife has been airing on PBS in the United States for as long as it's been on in Britain.

Antiyonder> I was disappointed that Mira, Royal Detective wasn't another Ever Realm property; it would have been nice to keep it up.

[SPOILER]Of course, I've been afraid for a while that not only would Maggie and Talon's baby be human but they would die and it would be adopted by Elisa and Goliath and be Nick Maza's ancestor, 'cause then Delilah II's character description saying she's distantly related to Nick because of her human DNA would mean it in the genetic sense (Nick being descended from Derek); if Elisa and Goliath are going to adopt a different child, then Nick and Delilah are only distantly related through adoption[SPOILER].


I especially hope we'll get the spinoffs! There were so many planned, and they're all terribly interesting.

[SPOILER] While switching POV from the usual Goliath to Elisa is interesting, I'm not really a fan of the narration introducing each character when they appear, because it hits the pause button on the story taking us out of the action in each panel, and the writing style of it is cutesy and I can't imagine it in Salli Richardson's voice because it doesn't fit her. I suppose it was inevitable in this first issue if they're trying to make it easier for first-time fans, and there should be drastically less now that they've gotten that out of the way. I'm looking forward to the story really starting next issue.

Would like to know if Gnash has an American or British accent. The "good to know" from Lexington re: British slang seems like a reference to Staghart.

Brooklyn is still second-in-command. Greg said that Broadway will become second-in-command now that Brooklyn is older, so we'll presumably see that play out.

Greg described Elisa's relationship to Angela as "big sister/young stepmom".

Liked Brooklyn and Katana saying "No!" in unison to Gnash going on patrol, but he'll have to someday. Makes me wonder how tight a leash they kept on him when they were timedancing and what dangerous situations he did or didn't get into.

I always suspected that was why Dracon and Brod ended up in the same cell, good to have confirmation. Though it could backfire if they turn out to be working together now. That's the sort of twist I would expect.

Hope they're not foreshadowing any Heel turns with Coldstone. Someone needs to explain to him in more detail about most humans not having malicious intentions instead of just quoting that old adage about the castle.

Interesting to see Erin with hair now. Would have liked to see Shari speak in a more Shari-like way, and more of the human homeless people.

Most of Thailog's attempts at speed-growing followers imprinted to serve him didn't work out, so raising and indoctrinating someone the old-fashioned way may seem more reliable. But will the baby actually be a mutate and not a regular human? It seems like we're being teased with this assumption. It depends on whether Maggie and Talon's gametes were mutated. I would like to see a new true-breeding race of mutates, though; it adds more color to the world and we could see them in Gargoyles 2198. Loved the shoutout to Call the Midwife, one of my favorite TV series and well deserving of how it was renewed up to Season 13 years in advance.

Elisa needs to introduce Goliath to Batman. It's a major part of culture he's missing out on.

Craig> Yes, it looks like Shari has an earpiece to communicate with Thailog [/SPOILER]

Ed> "But give me time. And a moon calendar." I see what you did there!


'Actually, there’s some precedent: Matt did film noir-style narration presumably addressed to the viewer in “Revelations.”'

Ah, good catch.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Shoot. Sorry I forgot to close the spoiler tag. But thankfully that’s not much of a spoiler.

Jurgan: [SPOILER]”Elisa’s narration is fun (I wanted to call it “film noir,” but Gargoyles is way too optimistic for that). We’ve never seen this sort of fourth wall breaking narration before, but it works.”

Actually, there’s some precedent: Matt did film noir-style narration presumably addressed to the viewer in “Revelations.”


At any rate, one thing I'll do is getting the trades of any new issues and then giving the single issues to the library store.

My thoughts on Gargoyles "Season 4" issue 1: "A Little Crazy"

[SPOILER] I got the main cover to keep in plastic and the Bronx cover to read, and I’ve already managed to put a dent in Bronx’s shoulder. I’m pretty sure the orange cat is Oliver from Oliver and Company, and the husky might be a young Balto. Are the pigeons the Goodfeathers? Disney and WB have a long history of playful (and sometimes not so playful) teasing one another.
This issue is very much a prologue. I was naturally excited to read it, but I can’t imagine it will ever be anyone’s favorite issue. It does the necessary job of introducing the cast to new readers but still keeps up its momentum. Were I reading this with no prior knowledge, I might be put off by the sheer number of characters, but I think it would also make me want to know more about the world. Elisa’s narration is fun (I wanted to call it “film noir,” but Gargoyles is way too optimistic for that). We’ve never seen this sort of fourth wall breaking narration before, but it works. She’s kind of cutting the legs out from it by gently mocking the serious tone of Keith David’s iconic intro, but it fits her character. That’s assuming she is talking to the audience, it could be revealed later that this is all being told to someone in-universe.
I got way too excited when Elisa said “he’s kinda my boyfriend.” It’s such a cute, unassuming way of referring to him. Also I’m sure we all noticed that they went from kissing to stroking each other’s hair. I like Brooklyn’s “impressionable minor” joke, though I wonder if any of the gargoyles disapprove of Goliath dating a human. I could see Othello having some issues (ironic, given his namesake was in an interracial marriage). The Owen scene threw me a bit just because I can never remember which hand is stone, but I couldn’t imagine Greg letting a gaffe like that through. It’s blocked so you can see his left thumb and so we were trying to figure out how he was holding the plate. Anyway, practically everyone is part of a couple at this point, except for Hudson, Lexington, and Gnash. Hmm, I wonder why Lex is interested in the British word for kissing, is there perhaps a British person he would like to “snog” with? :)

Art is very pretty overall. I also thought Sevarius looked like Matt, and I thought Matt looked like Norman Osborn from Spec Spidey. Several characters have their hair drawn as though it were a buzzcut. Was nice seeing Morgan again, but does he know about Elisa’s connection to the gargoyles? I thought he did after the Double Date storyline. Maybe he thought Goliath was just a dude in a costume, but she was pretty open about it.

I was surprised by the appearance of a pager, I figured Greg would be as vague as possible about when the story is set, but that’s a super-obvious 90’s signifier. I was also surprised by the mention of a “Dracon drug lab.” That’s something they couldn’t have gotten away with in the show, Greg’s memo about “Silver Falcon” said they had to call The Silver Falcon a “nightclub” and not a speakeasy. We have a gang war going and another callback to Spec Spidey with “nature abhors a vacuum.” (I know it’s an old saying, but she said it in the exact same context as George Stacy.) Likewise the shout-out to “the caped crusader” and Goliath’s puzzlement. Anyway, Dominic is on the loose, as is Tony’s uncle whom I don’t think we’ve ever heard of. And Thailog wants to kidnap the child but is also still working for the Illuminati. I had a theory for a while that the reason Xanatos was a “lower level” member was because he would not want to get too deep and have them control his life. Similarly, I can’t imagine Thailog being a willing puppet, and I can easily see he and Shari having a strained relationship if they disagree on what to do with the child.

That’s about everything that comes to mind. I’m sure I’ll think of other things later, but I can’t spend all day on this. By Gargoyles standards, this is probably a B+, but then again it’s really only the first act of whatever story is being told. Suffice to say, I’m super-hyped to have it back.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Pardon the double post but I just had a thought.

When should we set spoilers off? It's been some time since we discussed written media and it's not like watching at one's convenience.

Maybe be generous for any newcomers and say a week after release?

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd> [SPOILER] Angela already has a good step mother of sorts in Katherine. Now how Elisa and Angela's relationship will progress is something I'm interested in. [/SPOILER]
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

[SPOILER] Perhaps the one pity about Elisa being more like a big sister than a stepmother to Angela is that it passed up the opportunity for Disney to do a "good stepmother". [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

The Kambadais artwork is growing on me. From the SLG series, I best liked Karine Charlebois and Christopher Jones (and of course Greg Guler who I hope can maybe fill in someday on the new issues or potential spinoffs), and I also really liked Nir Paniry’s style on SLG #4 and would have loved to see more from him. The others were more of a mixed bag for me.

Got my copy today. I greatly enjoyed it and am looking forward to the next issue.

I'm curious as to what cover everyone got. I bought 2 issues, 1 with the OG Manhattan clan and 1 with the entire Manhattan clan.

I will say although I didn't hate the artwork, I liked the artists for the SLG better.


Todd: [SPOILER] Wow, brilliant spot - that is a deep cut! [/SPOILER]

[SPOILER] And I think (though I'll have to check) that the guys loading him on the stretcher are the same people who found Elisa after Broadway dropped her off at the hospital in "Deadly Force". [/SPOILER]

I've heard about Macy's journal too; it's even supposed to have a map of Amphibia drawn by Matt Braly himself.

Todd Jensen

Ed: [SPOILER] Oh man, that totally is him! Iconic 'I Heart NY' hat and you can even see the gray hoodie. Dang. [/SPOILER]

Not much (non-joking?) continuity with Gravity Falls, Owl House, and Amphibia, but crew-wise there' *also* some overlap with the recent DuckTales too. They've all been quality entertainment, and I'm still bummed I didn't jump on Amphibia earlier. Thanks for the heads up on Marcy's journal, Antiyonder!

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

I get a particular kick out of the Fleecs cover, showing Bronx and a couple of dogs chasing pigeons and a cat. (The cat's orangish, so it's clearly not Cagney.) Though the others look good as well; I was delighted to see that they had one by Greg Guler.

On the links between "Gravity Falls" and "The Owl House": in "The Intruder", when King's giving Luz a lecture on demons, complete with pictures of them up on a bulletin board, one of the pictures looked rather like Bill Cypher (which seems all the more appropriate given who's voicing King).

Todd Jensen

Anyway I will be getting the comic and some other regulars.

I did get Sofia the First Once Upon a Princess and Ready to be a Princess on DVD. Yeah the former is the only omissions of the Ever Realm stuff on Plus. Incidentally one of my first Plus binges was Elena of Avalon.

And conveniently enough, the episodes of Season 3 that aired were available on Charter's On-Demand.

Also got Gravity Falls Journal 3.

So any Amphibia fan getting Marcy's Journal? Pre-order a hardcover copy.


I didn't catch it the first time, but I saw someone online point out that [SPOILER] the jogger is the innocent bystander who gets injured! Perhaps we'll see more of him following this thread up...? [/SPOILER]

Craig: Awesome, thanks for explaining the job of a packager. I totally agree with all your comments. [SPOILER] It briefly occurred to me also that Sevarius looked a little like Matt but context and the lab coat made it clear. I hope new readers don't think there's a link but I'm sure future issues will clarify that they're different people. I agree Shari was using an earpiece although what unholy deals the Illuminati did to find one in 1997 that calls from deep underground...! [/SPOILER]

Todd: [SPOILER] I've never seen 'Call the Midwife' and didn't realise it aired outside the UK but if that is a deliberate shout-out, that's quite funny. Nice catch. I was actually thinking that maybe Nashville hasn't been to Britain but has spent time with someone who is. [/SPOILER]

Masterdramon: [SPOILER] It's interesting because I thought this issue was actually somewhat less ruthlessly economical than Greg's usual - and not in a bad way at all, just that it felt like it was spending extra time on scenes that could have been crowded out: the gargoyles foiling an ordinary crime, a relatively long discussion about the gargoyles' purpose on the battlements, a 2-page scene of them turning to stone, large panels to introduce most of the key characters. It felt like Greg was taking his "iconic" mantra and applying it to his own creation and that's great by me. I'm sure the pace will continue to amp up but especially after "Clan-Building" it feels nice to have a story that's a bit more of a breather. [/SPOILER]

Phoenician: [SPOILER] Oh, that's a great catch. I can see her hand turning now. [/SPOILER]


Matthew> Ok, well I won't say anything further unless you are interested, but supplemental material on GF's side hints to a connection to TOH continuity.

Phoenician: [SPOILER] Thank you for solving the Owen mystery! It was poorly staged, but given your explanation, I can now see that you are correct about what was going on.

On an unrelated note, perhaps the biggest reveal of this issue is that Elisa is an avid enough reader of DC Comics to recognize that Batman quote (particularly in the pre-Internet/meme 1990s when she wouldn’t have any particular reason to know that phrase outside being actually familiar with the comics). [/SPOILER]


Owen: minor [SPOILER] Pretty sure he's the one that provided Elisa with a pretty slim portable phone after she was beeped. Elisa placed the phone on the plate after the call ended. [/SPOILER]

As for the rest of this first issue, I've said it elsewhere, but reading these new pages truly feels like coming home after a really long trip. I'm just delighted all around. :)

Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Antiyonder> I had watched a few episodes and of course heard about the problems the show had run into with the network. But I haven't had a proper watch from start to end.

I also saw more than few people who worked on Falls also worked on Owl House.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

What are people’s favorite covers? For me, it has to be Guler. I can practically hear Carl Johnson’s Elisa theme playing when I look at it. But I also love the Lucio Parrillo one, which I don’t see getting a ton of praise but really evokes the moody early 1990s series promos. Also shout-outs to the Amanda Conner and George Kambadais covers which are also awesome. (They all are. But those are the ones that stand out as my favorites.)

So one of our fellow fans has asked me to pick up some extra physical copies as well as buy some of the Greg Guler cover versions for family. As such, I'm dropping this here in case anyone else wants in on a group purchase. If you want the Guler cover and don't have the money right now (or issues buying online), I'll buy and then reship, so you only pay issue cost + reship (the initial shipping is static for at least a few issues). As to other physical copies I can get ready access to, anything not an order incentive I can probably track down between the local shops near me. Drop me a line in the next day or two if you're interested.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!

Matthew> So I forgot if you ever talked about it, but you ever watch(ed) Gravity Falls?

[SPOILER] Great point about how much Greg accomplishes in this issue. It’s not showy or explosive, but displays some really economical storytelling, in terms of both recapping and setting up future conflict. It really leaves you anticipating what is to come next with all these threads set in motion. [/SPOILER]

Craig: I normally queue up the comic on laptop, then cast to my big TV so my roommate and I can both read together.

Mind...this and "YJ: Targets" are literally the only digital comics I've purchased in years, so...

Myself, I don’t live nearby a conveniently accessible comic store in Hawaii, so I’ve set up a digital subscription through Amazon – which dropped into my account right smack dab at midnight. On top of that, though, I’m on my last day of vacation in Berkeley and a comic store happened to be right on the way to my grandparents’ retirement home, so I was able to snag a physical copy (with the Jae Lee cover) as well. Probably won’t be a feat I’ll be able to repeat, but it’s nice that serendipity worked out for the debut issue.

In any event, this double-dipping means I’ve already read the issue four times over, and it was a DELIGHT.

[SPOILER] Every character is on point, with the economics of page space masterfully managed to give the reader a snapshot of everything they really NEED to know about their characterization; no more and no less. And Elisa’s innate snarkiness allows all this to play without feeling expo-dumpy.

In general, the writing has a strong and consistent throughpoint, the mixture of narration and dialogue carrying us through a staggering amount of information at a well-defined pace, neither plodding nor overwhelming. There’s a good balance of drama, humor, action, and even touching on some deeper themes (I’m sure the Usual Suspects will decry Gargoyles “going woke” because of Elisa’s short speech on sectarianism and scapegoating, as if that wasn’t already built into the DNA of the property from the get-go), with each element flowing into the next without feeling jarring.

In that sense, while Greg was never exactly a slouch in that department, I can really see the influence of his time on Spec and YJ sharpening his talent for this type of writing. Obviously it’s not a 1:1 transference, but the economics of complex storytelling in such a limited space is a tough nut to crack and I appreciate how much effort he must be putting into it.

Meanwhile, George’s art is uniformly gorgeous throughout. I love how he utilizes lighting and color, with the uniquely green-blue way he depicts the night sky tying the whole thing into a cohesive, stylized whole. Reminds me a lot of Sean’s artstyle in SpecSpidey in that regard. Thailog’s splash panel is a particular highlight, to the point where I think you could remove all dialogue and still perfectly get across exactly who Thailog is with just those two shots. [/SPOILER]

Overall, while there was probably no chance I WOULDN’T be grinning like a maniac after finishing this one, it still managed to meet or exceed all my expectations. I cannot wait to return home tomorrow and share with with my roommate, and then for us both to wait with bated breath for the release of #2 next month.

Mahalo nui loa to Greg, George, Jeff, Nate, and the rest of the Dynamite crew for bringing this wonderful first issue to life. The fact that I’m going to be regularly receiving new canon on a monthly basis going forward is still sort of impossible to wrap my head around, even with this one in my talons.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"On the year's last day / When all of a life's accounts / Have been settled up." - Hana

I wound up reading the first issue digitally, as a "just in case" manner.

[SPOILER] I enjoyed it. It made a good re-introduction to the series, and I liked Elisa's narration. Narration seems to work particularly well with detectives; I've recently read a few book series narrated by the detective in them, and, also recently, watched a detective series on "Masterpiece Mystery" called "Annika" where the title character narrates in a "breaking the fourth wall" manner - with the fun additional touch of comparing her cases to classic tales such as "Moby-Dick", "Twelfth Night", and Norse mythology. I especially liked Elisa's adaptation of the second season's opening narration, ending with "They are... okay, you get the idea".

I got a smile, too, out of Goliath unwittingly quoting Batman (all the funnier given those old worries that "Gargoyles" would be seen as a "Batman: TAS" rip-off, not to mention later on (when we shift to the Labyrinth) an allusion to "Call the Midwife" (in a scene taking place years before the show began!).

Nashville must have spent some time in Britain during the Timedancing. And now we know how he pronounces his nickname.

We find out at last what happened to the organized crime scene after "Turf" (plus a cameo from the three street thugs - though when they made the Three Stooges reference, I wondered why they spelled "Curly" with a K). And get a suitably ominous glance at the end at Thailog and Sevarius scheming, planning to capture Elisa's new nephew or niece. [/SPOILER]

A great new beginning to the series. I hope the physical copy I ordered does get shipped, and arrives in the mail soon.

Todd Jensen

It seems like the most frequent shipping option you can select is “weekly.” It’s not entirely clear to me what that means. Does it ship on release day, or a week later? On the couple of Miracleman issues that I’ve ordered from them so far, it hasn’t bothered me, and I haven’t been paying much attention to how long after release the issues arrive (in part because so far those were stories I’ve already read, albeit in newly redrawn versions). I was more antsy about Gargoyles, and am annoyed that my copies haven’t shipped yet. I do not enjoy reading digital comics, and feel that I didn’t enjoy the comic nearly as much because the format was irritating to me.

As a sidebar, for those who do prefer digital comic reading, what device do you use? I tried it on my MacBook and found the zooming/scrolling absolutely irritating. Maybe if there were a way to put it up on my TV it would be better? But I truly do not get the appeal.


Just checked their site, and there's no sign of it shipping; I don't know whether I somehow didn't finalize it when pre-ordering it, or whether they aren't shipping them just yet.
Todd Jensen

I ended up getting a digital copy because I wanted to be in the loop of the online conversation and it was “only” $4. It doesn’t appear my physical copies from TFAW have shipped yet. I hope I didn’t steer you guys wrong in terms of recommending that website, but it seemed to be the best option out there for preordering new comic books if you can’t get to a physical store.

Haven't received my copy yet, so I'll be waiting until then to join in (we're definitely going to have a lot of spoiler tags in the next few days), but I was amused to note that today's entry in the Young Justice Character Countback was another of the "Flashback" gargoyles (Diabolique, in this case, their counterpart to Demona). Excellent timing.
Todd Jensen

Good stuff, Ed.

[SPOILER] In old school comic book terms (like 1950s), a packager was someone who essentially handled the creative end (hiring writers and artists, creating the stories etc.) and would deliver the finished material to a publisher, who would then handle the business end of printing, promotion, shipping, sales, etc. Based on his social media, Nate seems to have his own company, Linney. So it seems like maybe he is more of an outside contractor to Dynamite as opposed to a full time employee, and they might be a bit more hands off with the creative aspects of the series? It’s all a bit murky what the dynamics of it are, but that seems most likely to me.

The Owen scene was weird to me, too. Was also confused who was supposed to be talking to Dracon in prison. And the guy standing with Brentwood who I think is meant to be Sevarius but at first looked more like Matt to me.

As someone who’s worked in the NYC criminal justice system, I can confidently say that Elisa definitely would have no say in who shares a prison cell. But, hey, suspension of disbelief. The other moments where Elisa’s narration felt more “Greg” than “Elisa” were the variants on “it’s complicated” or “don’t worry about it.”

It crossed my mind too that Coldfire actually made the situation worse by starting the fire. Subtle detail, and I wonder what to make of that. Goliath doesn’t reprimand her for it, nor does Elisa, so I’m unsure how much we were meant to focus on that.

Speaking of the lack of cell phones, I was wondering what Shari used to call Thailog. It looks like she has an earpiece possibly?

Overall, I hope the amount of exposition doesn’t turn off casual readers, but I get the approach of this strategy and hope it pays off. A solid start and so nice to spend time with these characters again. The Goliath/Elisa stuff especially was just such a joy.



Ah, of course; thanks!

"Love the pager. Speaking of calling things, I wonder what Angela "called" with Broadway?"

Angela earlier made a reference to the Cold Duo needing to "recharge," so when they said they need to recharge he said "you called it."

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Having read the digital and print copies and had a bit of time to digest, my comments follow under the spoilers. (No surprise, I love it).


Amazon have annoyed me since they took over ComiXology but I can't fault them here. Getting to my local comic shop before they close at 5.30 is tight on a Wednesday but Amazon delivering the book to my account so early is absolutely perfect for me. I can take a moment in the peace to read before the chaos of the day begins. It just makes for such a pleasant experience.


What caught my attention on the preview images was the "all-ages" label. I see it's been adjusted to "teen".

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I thought what the SLG series did with the little extra leeway was great, especially in the historical scenes.

That said, I was thinking if it was pushing to stay all-ages I might bring some issues into school for my class. I'm glad the rating has been clarified though as I think "teen" gives Greg fits the tone better.


Looks good. But... punctuation not a priority? I guess new-fangled concepts like punctuation doesn't fit the old-school carved-in-stone aesthetic.

I've never heard the term "packager" before in comics. What does the packager do? Well, package obviously, but in this context? Hmm.


I'm really in love with George Kambadais' colours. He does brightness so well. The lens flare is a difficult line to tread - one wrong move and he's JJ Abrams. But he manages it. Dark Age Scotland is given a genuinely fresh perspective with that bright sun on the sea and New York looks glorious. And he is master of the speed line.

The gargoyles all look themselves and yet also there's a real flair to the style. He's just such a great choice to make the book feel completely different and yet still quality.

(Which doesn't mean I still don't want to see the legends Christopher Jones, Karine Charlebois and Greg Guler back in the fold when the opportunity presents. Let's hope those spin-offs awaken as well...)


Of course it's a full moon. But since this is Gargoyles, it's also probably a trail of breadcrumbs to the actual date - or would be if we could pinpoint how far along Maggie was in "Clan-Building". I haven't looked it out yet. But give me time. And a moon calendar.


I absolutely love the choice to use Elisa as the POV character. Not only is it brilliant hearing the classic narration in Salli Richardson's voice (okay, only in my head, but still), but it feels fresh and yet also like such low-hanging fruit as the human lead is usually the access point to these kinds of shows - April discovering the turtles or the companion discovering the Doctor. In retrospect, 'Gargoyles' really stood apart in this sense -- it was always the story of the gargoyles and Elisa was, initially at least, just another threat to them. That worked brilliantly for the animated series but it makes this flip feel fresh and yet accessible in the best way.


Okay, a confession. I LOVE the original show's way of presenting titles. There's something about the font, the colour (including the "Hunter's Moon" variants), the use of capitals and inverted commas that's kind of ingrained in me - I just think the show had the best-looking titles in town. But I appreciate there's no sensible reason to resurrect them and frankly this feels much more fresh and modern and, as titles should be, low key. Also, some of the "Clan-Building" titles had an odd distortion where it looks like the aspect ratio had gone skew-whiff. This looks crisp and great.

There's no secret about Greg's penchant for one-word titles (in which I'm including where the only other word is "the").

At a very (very) quick tot counting chapter titles and books:
Season 1 was 40% one-worders
Season 2 was 64% one-worders
Season 3 85% one-worders

In Season 4, so far: 0% one-worders. What's happened to Greg?! (I love "Here in Manhattan" as a title mind you).


Shout out to Jeff Eckleberry. Lettering is thankless if you do it right and disastrous if it goes wrong. There were a couple of times on the SLG book where it stood out for the wrong reasons (at least in my printings). There are a few tricky things like the Eyrie building panel with two different narrators over the top which are handled well. And I'm not sure outline-less captions always work for me but it suits the art really well.


If it's been months I kinda feel bad for Gnash. Perhaps his parents prefer Nashville (sentimental reasons?). You'd think Lex would have learned after the Angie thing and a few months is plenty of time for him to get used to a new name. He doesn't look happy at being left by Broadway and Brooklyn.

Lots of subtle revelations here. Gnash has seemingly spent a fair bit of time recently in the UK seemingly. And we have confirmation (I'm not sure it was in "Clan-Building" that Katana is from feudal Japan). I love the "don't ask". Of course there are many, many questions - I would have loved to see the events of the first few nights after "Phoenix" as the gargoyles got to know each other again. Perhaps this was never on the cards to dramatise - the end of "Phoenix" moved on pretty quickly and with a property as dense as 'Gargoyles' it makes sense to leave some things for fans to fill in the cracks.


It's interesting that Elisa considers them sisters since she is effectively Angela's step-mother. And to be honest, even on the World Tour, I kind of looked at them more of a family unit. Of course, Elisa's a relatively young woman so she's not going to think of herself as a mother figure to an adult conceived a thousand years plus years ago. But I wonder if Angela would see it the same way.


Owen is just kinda standing there. It's great to see him but he's literally just holding an empty plate and staring. I feel like I'm missing something really obvious...?


Great to see Glasses and Jack Dane. Good thing I rewatched "Turf" recently for the first time in years as I forgot Jack Dane had partnered with Brod.

"We made them share a cell because we thought it'd be funny" - does Elisa have any control over prisoner placement? Not for the last time, this feels a bit more like Greg talking than Elisa.


When I started posting at S8 in January 1998, the Dracon picture wasn't in use. I've tended either to post without a picture or with Dracon ever since. I like Dracon fine but I've sometimes thought of changing. I know Todd changed from Cagney to Arthur and Blaise changed from the Hunter to the Magus (although both a very long time ago). Still, with a near 25 year run posting with the guy's image (howwwwww?) and with new Tony material this month, how could I change?


Apparently the book was too exciting because the middle pages of the comic fell out of their staples as soon as I got there. A bit disappointing - I've never had that happen with a new comic before and if it were my first read-through I'd be a bit more taken out of it. But as I expect to get multiple copies (and frankly prefer reading digital most of the time these days) it's hardly the end of the world. But I hope it's a rare exception and not an issue with the print run.


I wasn't sure how Coldstone and Coldfire would go down as we've really seen very little of them as characters outside their Othello/Desdemona/Iago plotline. I like how Coldstone is willing to advocate the "wrong" (or at least the selfish) choice. And Coldfire is more sympathetic but as far as I can tell is responsible for the fire and thus potentially the civilian casualty. Are these two really cut out for the kind of work the gargoyles do? Hmm.

I think Coldstone will be proved right though: there is a problem if the gargoyles are only seen by the "bad guys" and don't have any wider representation. I wonder where this will go and I feel like this could have a bigger resonance across the "Here in Manhattan" arc.


I love the way the recap narration here keeps us in the action. This was one of the things that jangled me a bit with previous recaps in Clan-Building #1, #3 and back in the original show in episodes like "Outfoxed" and "The Cage". In "Nightwatch" especially it felt like Goliath telling Elisa something she already knew so the audience could listen in. This feels so much more elegant.

Plus, it's just never as exciting seeing something the second time around. There's no need here to see a Sevarius flashback for the purposes of this issue so we get to see Brendan and Margot instead because... well, of course we do! (Seriously, I got so distracted by the pair of them I missed that this sequence was about the drain at first).


Love seeing Erin, Benny and Thug in colour! And always great to see Shari back.


One of the clever by-products of Elisa narrating the story is that the tone shifts when it goes quiet and we're not in her head. Thailog doesn't need an introduction or a name - he's totally the bad guy. And yet the re-use of the close-up mouth angle just emphasises he's a clone.

Thailog's final lines are pretty chilling but I wonder if there's something else happening. I just can't imagine Thailog taking to the languid pace of raising a child. Surely the accelerated pace of clone ageing is more his speed? Yes, a child born to mutates is significant, but he has the mutates' designer almost literally on his right hand. Is it just the link to Elisa that makes him want this specific child? What a bastard.


Love the pager. Speaking of calling things, I wonder what Angela "called" with Broadway?


No mega cliffhanger for this one - not on the final page anyway. That's fine. I really love how this is kind of a chill issue, just surveying the lay of the land. "Nightwatch" was great but felt like a quite intense start. Not "Awakening" intense I grant you, but having a lighter issue to open with feels right.

9.09% BIGGER!

I admit, I never expected this one to be 24 pages, even though the SLG books were. 22 or even 20 seems to have been such a standard for a long time (admittedly I don't currently read any other comics regularly). I am, of course, delighted.

All told -- I love it. Yes, it's very heavy on introductions but it never feels clogged with it. Everything moves along at a nice pace, we get to see where the clan and key allies are at this point in their lives. Everything feels fresh and modern and accessible. [/SPOILER]

This really does feel on every level like a new #1, never denying the past but wearing it lightly and travelling forward with a fresh, modern feel. I'm ecstatic and so grateful to Greg, George, Nate, Jeff and everyone at Dynamite. The sales deserve to be stratospheric and let's hope the comic has a very long and happy life.


I'm getting mine tomorrow at my comic book store (which I haven't been to in like 10 years).

Looking forward to the conversations that will happen in this comment room. Been way too long since we got to talk about new Gargoyle stories.


MATT - A lovely dream, and thanks for sharing it with us. (It reminds me of my own "creativity demon" - though not a literal dream - of the gargoyles building a rookery for Egwardo.)

Though I'm waiting for my copy to arrive in the mail (I ordered from Stranger Things From Another World, like Matt did), I got a peek at a couple of sample pages online. [SPOILER] I like the notion of Elisa as narrator. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

The easiest way to purchase a digital copy is the Kindle version here:


I preordered it and it was "delivered" to my account right at midnight. You'll also need to download the Kindle Reader App here if you don't already have it on your device (if using a computer, choose the "Download for PC & Mac" option):


Two quick steps as long as you already have an Amazon account.

I'll keep my thoughts to myself until more people have gotten to partake, but let's just say...this was a VERY fun start.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"On the year's last day / When all of a life's accounts / Have been settled up." - Hana

Looking forward to getting my copy! I may end up hunting down a digital version. I pre-ordered a few copies on Things from another World, but I'm unclear how that process works or how long it takes.

Meanwhile, Gargoyles on the brain, had a dream last night. A scene occurred at the Eyrie Building shortly after the events of Clan-Building: The Manhattan Clan has been hard at work building a new rookery under Castle Wyvern. The entire clan is there for the placement of Egwardo in the rookery. Hudson (or Golith, I can't recall) speaks about how an established rookery is a key part of a clan and that by having a rookery and an egg, the clan is "official" or something like that. It was a beautiful and cool scene, at least in my dream. I also recall that the London Clan sent their congrats (via Lexington through Staghart).

Pretty cool dream really. I've heard that there will be some focus on Egwardo in the comics to come, so that must've inspired it. We'll see what happens!

"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings

JURGAN - [It makes a lot of sense given that they basically turned Gargoyles into another X-Men. Prejudice against those who are different was always a theme of Gargoyles, but it was practically the only theme of TGC.]

True. The focus of "The Journey" probably helped encourage that approach, of course (though the evidence is that Greg Weisman didn't plan that to be the main focus of the third season, and that a major reason why it concentrated so much on the anti-gargoyle response was that it was the immediate aftermath of the events of "Hunter's Moon"). And the public alarm at discovering that gargoyles were real was the main loose end from Season Two, which would have made it all the more natural to be a prominent thread in Season Three.

I still suspect that the main problem was how they handled the anti-gargoyle prejudice. Seeing it through an "X-Men" prism undoubtedly helped; the new production team apparently overlooked some major differences between gargoyles and the mutants of "X-Men". One of the major differences was that mutants are humans; gargoyles are a non-human sapient species. This would certainly account for things like gargoyles being guests on talk shows or put on trial, something which, in Greg Weisman's own plans, wouldn't be likely to happen for a long time. (The way it was handled in "The Journey" makes it clear that the public see the gargoyles as "super-predators" - in fact, to them, it'd be more like cryptids like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Mosnter turning out to be real, with the further alarm that they're in a major U.S. city.) Also, they've just found out about the gargoyles; my memories of the FOX X-Men series aren't as strong, but I'm under the impression that mutants had been public knowledge for a while when it opened.

The depiction of the Quarrymen certainly suffered; as I've mentioned before, one of the big drawbacks of the new production team's decision to make them all vicious mercenary-types was that it weakened the notion of it being about the fear of the unknown and different. Goliath and his clan, the main gargoyle presence in Manhattan, are protectors; that means they'd be at odds with the Quarrymen's membership anyway. (Though this take on the Quarrymen might have at least ensured that the production team wouldn't have to worry about repeating the Vinnie thread in "The Journey".) Add onto that how often the Quarryman schemes against the gargoyles depended on the gargoyles coming to the aid of people in need, and it'd have made almost more sense to make them simply the guys whose crimes the gargoyles had repeatedly foiled, seeking to get back at them and masquerading as a hate group. (From what I can recall of the FOX "X-Men" series, the Friends of Humanity were depicted in a similar light, but at least there were a lot of mutants who weren't super-heroes - I remember them going after mutants whose "mutant-feature" was just being covered in fur, for example. Also, they might be imagined as hating mutants from a perspective of "racial purity", a fear that eventually, humanity will be made up entirely of people covered in fur or shooting lasers out of their eyes unless they wipe out every mutant they can find and remove them from the gene pool; again, that doesn't apply to gargoyles, who are a separate species.)

It didn't help matters, either, that whatever progress the gargoyles had made in human-gargoyle relations would be undone by the start of the next episode, usually without any explanation. (I admit that I can think of a few reasons for that. The new production team seems to have preferred taking the safer course of letting the episodes air in any order, except that "The Journey" had to be the first episode and "Angels in the Night" the last. Also, it probably allowed them to take a "things at their most hopeless" approach in "Angels in the Night" for greater drama - though it made the public's turnaround at the end less realistic. And,finally, we know that their original plan was for the gargoyles to flee New York at the end, which makes me wonder whether part of the reason why they weren't showing any lasting progress was that they'd originally planned for the gargoyles to fail, give up, and abandon the city.)

Pity that Greg (as far as we know) didn't draw up a list of differences between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men" for the new production team (similar to the list of differences he'd drawn up between "Gargoyles" and "Batman: TAS" much earlier, if for a different reason.

Todd Jensen

Loving the discussion. DC's storyline is kinda messed up for me(but I still love it), esp the JLA series with so many retcons(Thanks Flash) [SPOILER] Thanks for updating the gargwiki! [/SPOILER]
Furnace Victoria

Thanks for that Vicky - hadn't assumed it would be released so early! Perfect timing for me as I always struggle to leave work before the shops shut on Wednesday.

Won't discuss the issue now (but it's awesome). However, that cover gallery at the end is incredible. I count 78 different covers. If anyone is collecting them all, it's going to be a task and a half!!


Yes!!! I have issue 1 (digital version) downloaded and ready to read.
VickyUK - [vickysunseeker at aol dot com]

"That could offer an extra explanation for the plotholes. I'd thought it might be a combination of being new to the series and not having much time to familiarize themselves with it, and having very little time to write it, period (the "Goliath Chronicles" seems to have been a sort of "last-minute project" to provide an adventure series for ABC's Saturday morning line-up), but working another series at the same time would have probably added to that."

It makes a lot of sense given that they basically turned Gargoyles into another X-Men. Prejudice against those who are different was always a theme of Gargoyles, but it was practically the only theme of TGC.

"It is really a baffling decision by Disney that they laid off the established producers of the series, and replaced them with a group of creators who already had a “day job” for a competing company that would presumably consume a lot of their time. What a terrible move, from a creative and business standpoint."

I've never really been clear why they did that. Best I can figure is that some executives were annoyed by Greg (it sounds like they held a grudge for him not delivering the inhuman demand of 52 episodes in ten months) and put personal pique above business sense.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Matthew> I agree with what you said last week about DC and Marvel; I prefer the TV adaptations to the comics because the continuity shakeups make the latter harder to follow or get invested in. Actually, I was watching X-Men and Batman as a kid before I knew the comics they were based on existed.

Antiyonder> I read the old Gargoyles comics when they came out. I only remember Venus and the vampire that one of the Trio was involved with, though I think I may have read other issues as well. I found them interesting enough, but I won't be getting the re-prints.


They also worked on the final season of 90's X-men? Man, tough knowing you dropped the ball on not one but two classic animated series.
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

It is really a baffling decision by Disney that they laid off the established producers of the series, and replaced them with a group of creators who already had a “day job” for a competing company that would presumably consume a lot of their time. What a terrible move, from a creative and business standpoint.

Todd Jensen> Plus Sedaris being arrested even though his crime wasn't public and the only victims would be the clan.

But then even their own show as better as it was, they had some hiccups. Namely the early history of the continuum's X-Men.

Enter Magneto seems like the first encounter he has with the X-Men, only for Cold Comfort to show him having a history with them.

Angel clearly didn't meet the team until Come the Apocalypse. Cold Comfort even keeps him out of the flashback to the original team.

Shard's intell on his from Beyond Good and Evil states he is fated to join the X-Men (A planned finale point) VS rejoining.

But then flashbacks to the team's early years include him as an OG X-Men.

Also while not frequent in comparison, the team in Days of Future Past when debating on whether any of them could turn traitor, Jean reminds Scott of her own darkness.

As if the Dark Phoenix Saga might be in their past. Yet that doesn't happen until Season 3.


That could offer an extra explanation for the plotholes. I'd thought it might be a combination of being new to the series and not having much time to familiarize themselves with it, and having very little time to write it, period (the "Goliath Chronicles" seems to have been a sort of "last-minute project" to provide an adventure series for ABC's Saturday morning line-up), but working another series at the same time would have probably added to that.
Todd Jensen

I’ve always been curious to hear Eric and Julia Lewald’s thoughts on TGC, as well as Scott Thomas’s. But as Todd said, it’s likely a long forgotten footnote for them. I think they were all still working on the final season of X-Men at the time, so TGC was probably more of a side project.

I doubt that it was anything more than just another job to them. I still suspect it must have been a rush job, given such elements as Castaway and the Quarrymen at liberty in "Angels in the Night" with not even a mention of their being arrested in "For It May Come True" (one of the new production team's own episodes), Castaway talking about how the gargoyles could have hurt innocent people with their bomb (with nobody pointing out how obviously hypocritical that sounds after his own reckless stunt with the heavy artillery), etc.

(I still wonder whether "The Goliath Chronicles" would make more sense (if still with some plotholes) if rewritten as an "X-Men" series.)

Todd Jensen

Heck another reason I'm figuring that Greg is given the okay to decanonize stuff he wasn't able to do in line with his vision (Being a creative consultant on TGC), is I don't think the creative team on say TGC had much fondness if any for their contribution.

Any of the people working exclusively on TGC ever talk about it?


Well, they certainly won’t be bringing on the writer of the first four issues, Martin Pasko, since he died two years ago. Incidentally, he was no slouch: he was a story editor on Batman: The Animated Series, and cowrote the acclaimed film spinoff Mask of the Phantasm with Alan Burnett, Paul Dini and our very own Michael Reaves.

I think the fact that Dynamite approached Greg in the first place as opposed to getting some bigger name or someone they had a prior relationship with shows that they know what the fans want. And editor Nate Crosby seems to have a great feel for the property and the fandom based on his Voices from the Eyrie podcast appearance. My main worry with the Marvel stuff is that it could confuse fans.


ED> I wouldn’t worry about Dynamite bringing over the writers from the old Marvel series. She may have been a relative unknown at the time she penciled the original Gargolyes comic, but nowadays Amanda Conner is a fairly big name artist in the industry. She’s won multiple awards and worked on high profile series like DC’s Harley Quinn books.

While I’d prefer Dynamite prioritize the SLG stuff, from a marketing POV, it makes sense to take advantage of something with a popular artist’s name already attached. It’s actually a smart way to catch the eye of general comic fans who might otherwise not have much awareness or interest in the property.

I can’t see them replacing Greg with Mort Todd, or forcing him to canonize Venus and Dr. Phobos. But I wouldn’t be surprised (or displeased) if they brought in Conner as a guest artist for an issue every now and then.

Never the End

Well I might reconsider. Though cause I do enjoy the non canon comics at least, and if it gets a reprint definitely going for the Disney Adventures stuff.

Now has there been mention of that, or is it only the Marvel run?


I have mixed views on the Marvel reprints too. I'm not the slightest bit interested in reading them so I'd only really be buying them as a show of support. And I do want to support what Dynamite are doing. But then I think, if that's the case, why not just buy an extra variant or two of the main book which will be out at that time - still money to Dynamite/Disney for Gargoyles but this contains the material I actually want to see more of.

Not that I'm against reprinting - it strikes me that it must be a relatively inexpensive way to make extra money off the licence before (let's hope!) a spin-off book is launched to flesh out the line and I want Dynamite and Disney to feel that the licence was worth it. I just hope that, if the interest isn't there in the Marvel stuff, the wrong lessons aren't drawn - or, for that matter, if interest is really high in the Marvel stuff, the wrong lessons aren't drawn and we get some of those writers brought over! (Similarly, I always kind of worry that when Disney+ run analytics and see people are binging Gargoyles but only the first two seasons, they could draw the wrong conclusion that perhaps in some weird way it's not worth making more since obviously people got bored of it later on or something. Like, "Gargoyles fans can't have dessert - they haven't finished their vegetables yet.").


Actually one thing that was brought up in the more recent decades is Generations.

Still mock worthy for rehashing The Reckoning and while Demona might align herself or work with those who are a threat to gargoyles everywhere? Castaway cooperating with her is a no.

But yeah it is funny that it doesn't try to rush a Demona redemption or having one for her at all. Especially when The Gargoyles Saga had her attending Christmas dinner with the clan.

I will be touching on the episode for a latter discussion albeit for a different topic.


TGC isn’t the most well written thing and obviously isn’t canon, but performances by Keith David, Ed Asner, Thom Adcox, Jon Frakes, etc., as these characters is nothing to turn up your nose at. Especially having lost Ed, I’ll take every second of his Hudson that I can get.

Masterdramon> Oh don't get me wrong. The Canon stuff old or new is my top priority.

That said, I think beyond the lack of canonicity and quality, I often felt TGC was underwhelming overall.

Like I guess the people working on it were on order to have back to basic stories considering The Avalon World Tour, but even then when your cast is a race of individuals who were from Scotland 994 A.D., it doesn't feel right to be as low key as they went.

Worked for Season 1 of the series as a means of easing us in, but even the Pre-World Tour stuff felt like a better way to go for basic stuff.

Heck, I will by TGC on DVD if it means supporting the property, but I only binge the original series and maybe The Journey only.


Todd: The "Flashback" cast all have cameos (in stone form) in an issue of Young Justice: Targets. So far, Greg's countback still seems to be on characters who have only a single appearance/mention in Earth-16 canon, which they would qualify as. Whether he specifically timed things accordingly...well, there's a LOT of those single-appearance characters, so I'll leave that question open...

Antiyonder: Regardless of quality or canonicity, the Marvel run was well before my time so I've never read any of it. I'll pick up the reprints as a novelty and to generally support the property, but I can't say it's something I care deeply about.

Not compared to getting new re-releases of the SLG material, as my old trades are starting to fall apart.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"On the year's last day / When all of a life's accounts / Have been settled up." - Hana

So to my knowledge the first Marvel Gargoyles release is February and is a Facsimile Edition of #1.

So either a sampler or each issue will be coming out issue by issue. I'll still get a copy out of support (Have all the issues from the 90s as they were released).

Anyone who missed out on them getting them, canonicity aside?


Sorry for the double post, but it struck me that at the start of the week when the first issue of the new "Gargoyles" comic book comes out, the most recent entries in the "Young Justice Character Countback" are the French gargoyles from "Flashback of Notre Dame" (and there are probably enough left to ensure more of them for Tuesday and especially Wednesday's entries. I wonder whether Greg scheduled the Countback with that in mind, or if it's just a fun coincidence.
Todd Jensen

ED - Thanks.

MATTHEW - It recently occurred to me that Luz has two mothers herself, though in a different way from "Willow has two fathers". (Particularly since they haven't met yet.)

Todd Jensen

Todd: It's reference link 5 on the Maol Chavim II entry that you edited. Link below.

ED - Could you tell me more about that link, please?

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest review. And we'll be finding out more about Amity's parents in Season Two.

Todd Jensen

If a picture is worth a thousand words, is a memory worth a thousand...um...emotions?
Eh, that analogy isn't working.

Watched "Understanding Willow" today which brings to light the nature of Willow and Amity's past and their falling out, and boy howdy, is there a lot to unpack here.

So photo class seems pretty cool, be an interesting way to refresh one's mental capacities and combat memory loss. But dang does it look like an easy system to abuse considering something like a pulled memory is just as fragile as a standard snapshot.

So Amity Blight huh? There's paradoxical name if I've heard one, and a brunette too. I was curious about that spot of brown, I always assumed it was a fashion choice considering her siblings are (presumably) natural greens. I assumed that her general unpleasantness was part because of her ambition to join the Emperor's Coven, part falling out of friendship like many kids do and part having to deal with her goofball brother and sister. Well I guess I can add toxic parenthood to that as well.

I did get some distinct snobbish upbringing vibes from Amity but it's pretty harsh to see it being cultivated by her genuinely appalling parents. Because how does a kid as young as Amity was reckon with that kind of environment? Lose a friend or lose the approval and what she most likely sees as love from her parents? That's a terrible thing to foist onto a child especially since Willow did nothing wrong except take a little longer that normal finding out where her talents lie. And Amity's current entourage of other unpleasant teens is all because her parents only approved of "friends" that would grow their image of power. Makes me wonder how the relationship is with Edric and Emira is. Also makes me wonder if Boscha and Skara have similar stories, because elitist attitudes are the sort of thing that's passed down the line.

I love the look of Willow's inner workings, a forest painting bearing trees feels so in character. And memoryless Willow was a hoot; getting strong "The Day the Earth Stood Stupid" vibes from that. Lucky Willow never went "Fire indeed hot!" But it also says a bit about her character and not that she might have some hidden anger deep inside, but that once the good memories and experiences are erased, all that's left is the raw emotion from from a very unhappy childhood. Let's just hope that Amity's promise to not sit idly back while she's bullied stays true.

I like that both the B-plot and Luz had to take a backseat here. While she was the catalyst for the episode and for Amity's character arc, that this was something that had to be resolved between the two of them.

On a side note, I can see why this show started to upset the anti-LGBTQ crowd. I mean a developing relationship between two girls and a young child brought up by two dads? Won't someone please think of the children?

Favorite Lines:

Amity: Willow, you were never too weak to be my friend. I was too weak to be yours. I can't take back what I've done, but I can promise you this. I won't let Boscha and her gang pick on you ever again. I'm not actually going to rip it because it's a real butterfly, but you get the gesture, right?

Inner-Willow: I do. I think Willow should keep her memories of you, the good and the bad.

Amity: Me too.

Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Happy Gargoyles #1 Week!

Thanks for updating the Maol Chavim II entry, Todd. I also noticed a link to an interesting response by Greg to one of your questions that I'd forgotten about. Interesting.