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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending May 19, 2024

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"Do you recall which unabridged translation that Hugo collaborated on?"

Charles Wilbour was friends with Hugo and released his translation the same year as the original publication. I don't know specifically how much "collaboration" there was, but given what a massive effort it must have been, I assume he must have had advance copies.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Matt> [SPOILER] Hard to be sure, but given the "Future Tense" foreshadowing, that scenario for Brentwood feels appropriate and not unlikely. [/SPOILER]
B

Matt: [SPOILER] I think that's the ticket; best that I've read so far. No numbers are exchanged, so Prospero and Le Maire definitely aren't Illuminati, so getting something from the White Council in an effort to acquire something the Society (in one way or another) has does make sense. It also means that perhaps the identity of the three new Keys remains even more uncertain! [/SPOILER]

Jurgan: [SPOILER] Do you recall which unabridged translation that Hugo collaborated on? [/SPOILER]

Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

So, something is odd to me... [SPOILER] Demona arranges for Thailog to acquire something from the a "club" he joined. Thailog then makes plans to acquire the Hand of Valmont. Then he gets the Hand from Prospero. We are to assume the "club" Demona is the Illuminati and that they have the Hand, but Prospero isn't Illuminati. So, what are we missing here? Is Demona referring instead to the White Council and Thailog is a part of that. That doesn't seem to fit or likely. So, I'm wondering if the Hand isn't what Demona asked Thailog to acquire at all. He tells Shari and Brentwood that the Hand is his "IMMEDIATE objective". Maybe he needs it in order to acquire his ULTIMATE objective: the item Demona asked for. Maybe the only way to get the object Demona wants (the haft of Gugnir maybe?) is to use the Hand of Valmont. Or maybe he arranged to trade the Hand to the Illuminati for the object Demona wants. Anyway, I just feel that we are missing something. Thoughts? [/SPOILER]

By the way, [SPOILER] I do like the thought that Brentwood is playing the role of the subservient little underling while slowly building his own plans. The parallels to "Future Tense" are nice. It may be years or decades before he usurps Thailog though and hatched his plan. It would be crazy to have Thailog ultimately taken dwn by Brentwood and for Brentwood to become a major threat to the Manhattan Clan on his own right. We shall see. [/SPOILER]

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

JURGAN - [SPOILER] With the likely (and melancholy) consequence that those gargoyles were all casualties of the war, since no French clans appear on the "present-day clans list, though that's still canon-in-training, of course. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

Sorry for double-post, but Greg answered a few of the questions I raised here: https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/archives.php?lid=749

[SPOILER]
An obvious question, of course, is "were any of the characters gargoyles?" Cosette, the orphaned child raised by Valjean, would be a good choice. But that means her mother Fantine, the abused prostitute, would also be a gargoyle. I'd have to think on that one.

So were there gargoyles during Revolutionary and post-Revolutionary France? My guess: There were gargoyles in the Vendee, the western region of France which launched a counter-revolution because they opposed some of the more extreme reforms of the Revolutionaries. Gargoyles being so territorial, it would make sense that they would side with their neighbors against dictates from distant Paris. Victor Hugo also wrote a novel about this civil war called "1793," which I started reading a few weeks ago. It's a pretty good read so far, somewhat faster paced than Hugo's more hefty works.
[/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Yes, there are a number of contrived coincidences in Les Miserables. The biggest is when Marius is looking for the man who saved his father, and then Thenardier rents a room next door to him and goes on a rant about saving some guy's father while Marius is listening in. But, as you say, I think the most well-known coincidence of Jean Valjean having a doppleganger is less a coincidence and more a commentary on how easy it is for police to pressure witnesses into making a false identification. Though the timing of him being arrested just as Javert suspects Valjean is still a bit convenient.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

JURGAN - [SPOILER] I remembered your bringing up a few coincidences in "Les Miserables" when I was discussing the way Vinnie kept running into the gargoyles here a few years ago and comparing it to a similar phenomenon in Dickens' works (I'd particularly cited the way Richard Armour had fun with it in his summary of "David Copperfield"), particularly the part - which you mentioned in your review of "Gargoyle Quest" #2 - about the other guy getting mistaken for Valjean (which you found particularly convincing). At any rate, thanks for your comments.

I've a thought about the Director now, but I'm saving this for next week. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Got around to reading Quest #2, t'was so preoccupied with other things that I forgot it was coming out!
[SPOILER] Initial thoughts? LOVE that final Demona panel. [/SPOILER]

Kate

Jurgan> [SPOILER] I was imagining Patrick Stewart as Prospero since someone in here a while back said that would be a good role for him. [/SPOILER]

That was me!

[SPOILER] Now that we have a better view on what Prospero is like and considering that Patrick Stewart has a goof sense of humor in real life, I can see him in the role even more. I'd love to hear him gush about powder-blue tracksuits in that wonderful, stuffy Yorkshire accent of his. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

[SPOILER]
I sometimes hold off on talking about issues until I have something well thought-out to say, which means I forgot to ever do so last time. Quest #1 was pretty good and stuffed full of story. I would have thought Demona’s sunset transformation would have left her in too much pain to murder armed guards, but maybe the pain adrenalized her.

On page 1 of Quest #2, Goliath’s chin looks huge.

Anyway, lots of new characters. I’ve never read The Tempest, though I have seen Forbidden Planet. I was imagining Patrick Stewart as Prospero since someone in here a while back said that would be a good role for him. I like his somewhat childish sense of fun to offset his imposing abilities.

“I'm looking forward to Jurgan's comments on Monsieur LeMaire; he's shown particular familiarity with "Les Miserables" in the comment room.”

WHO AM I- J, U, R, G, A... N! Okay, doesn't quite fit.

I didn’t realize I had brought up Les Miserables in here, but I must have. Yes, I’ve read the unabridged Les Miserables (in English, though with the translation that Hugo collaborated on) and have seen the musical, and have a ticket to see it again next fall. I guessed when Bad Guys came out way back when that “Monsieur Le Maire” was Jean Valjean, so I am excited to see confirmation. Though I must admit, when I saw a big guy with black and white hair my first reaction was “oh, Dino survived.” It’s ironic, I suppose, that I would mistake Jean Valjean for a wanted criminal, since one of the big moments in his story is when he is a wanted criminal and a civilian is mistaken for him. I picture Valjean (I am going to call him that unless and until we find out that’s not him) as having all gray bushy hair, but I don’t know if that’s from the book or just my headcanon. I love his line “clean living and the grace of God.” Jean Valjean is deeply rooted in ideas of grace and redemption, being a former petty crook who was saved by a generous bishop. It makes perfect sense for him to be running a “redemption squad,” though I don’t know if he is aware of how aggressive his underlings are in recruiting soldiers. The main innovation is for him to be working with a group. Valjean is mostly a loner in the book, with his adopted daughter as his only companion. Though I suppose that’s not by choice; early on, he is the mayor of a small town (hence the title) until his cover is blown. And he does need companions to give his life meaning, lest he simply lay down and die from depression and loneliness (that ending is one thing I kind of dislike about the novel). But if you want a thumb-up or thumbs-down, it’s definitely the former. From what little we’ve seen so far, this is exactly how I’d expect the man to act in this world.

‘Can't pretend I have much of interest to say about Valjean, since my knowledge of Les Misérables more or less begins and ends with "It's set in France, I think?" - but I have the slight feeling that "guy with super-strength" is pretty far from what Victor Hugo wrote.’


Well, that means you know more than the people who mistakenly believe it’s set in the French Revolution. (The last act is actually set during the 1832 Paris Uprising that only lasted a few days; Mike Duncan did an episode if you want a historical rundown. https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/2017/05/608e-the-june-rebellion.html) But this is closer to canon than you might think. Valjean was on the upper edge of human strength, most notably when he saved a man’s life by lifting an extremely heavy cart off of him, so this is only a bit of an exaggeration.

“I guess it makes sense that the cyclist with the package is Anton, but I did not catch that until you guys brought it up.”

I didn’t catch that either, but it reminds me of Into the Spiderverse where Doc Ock rode her bike in to work.

“Greg confirmed that the general events of "Les Misérables" happened in the Gargoyles universe, so I think Monsieur Le Maire being Jean Valjean is the most straightforward explanation.”

The most general events of Les Miserables happened in real history, as well, so we have a lot of questions about where things fall. Let’s have some fun with this idea. We don’t know if any other characters from the novel will show up. We have plenty of obsessive “hunters” in Gargoyles, but unlike Javert they’re mostly outside the law. But suppose some equivalent to Thenardier (a bottom-feeding, opportunistic criminal- a trickster like Raven could fit the bill) exists. What if The Hand of Valmont was a treasure of the Capetian Dynasty, a.k.a. the House of France? Incidentally, the founder of this dynasty ruled from (987–996), a suggestive timeframe for our show.
Louis XVI kept it in the Bastille, but maybe Thenardier helped storm that fortress and nicked the Hand, holding onto it for a while. Valjean was arrested in 1796 for stealing bread to feed his sick niece, then stayed locked up until 1815, so he missed the Napoleonic Era. But in 1832, during the uprising, the hand somehow passed to Valjean. Maybe he confronts Thenardier in the sewers and takes it, maybe Javert has it and gives it to Valjean before killing himself. Then Valjean fakes his own death to start the White Council and/or Redemption Squad. I don’t know, I’m just spitballing at this point, so don’t take any of the above as prediction. And if we want more Hugo, we could say that Catholic priest and alchemist Claude Frollo had the Hand at some point in the 15th century, though Disney already has a pretty definitive version of that character.

“He also doesn't seem the type to kill Shari based on their interaction, so it seems more likely she means she literally can't finish a story without dying.”

If he’s anything like the canonical Jean Valjean, he’s not a killer. Jean went out of his way to save the life of the man whose greatest desire was to throw him in prison. Maybe if there was literally no alternative, he'd kill to save a life, but it would be a desperate act at best. [/SPOILER]

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

Hectic week so I’m late to the party and I haven’t had a chance to catch up all the comments here. Still, here are my thoughts.

QUEST #2

[SPOILER] 1. Does Goliath know who Vinnie’s employer is? Assuming the canon-in-training is true and it's Taro... well... admirable and righteous may not be how the Ishimura Clan would describe him even if his cause is just.

2. Pasquale Qualano is doing absolute gangbuster work here. The movement and many of the character designs are really excellent.

3. I’m not sure what’s going on with the colours at sunrise - what appears to be the Moon seems to actually be the sun having fully risen while it’s still dark. Owen’s hand is more the Thing than its correct colour too. Most of the colour work is spot on though.

4. Lighting aside, I really enjoy those routine moments that were quite common in the episodic version of the series but could easily be cut out in these shorter comic instalments.

5. Prospero - now there’s a curveball I did not expect, plus references to Caliban and Arial. I guess the fact that Greg - back in the day - mentioned Prospero a fair amount meant we should have expected him to arrive sooner rather than later but somehow it was still unexpected. I also like the name the White Council. It feels like there should be an older reference to this than Tolkien here but it is a cool name and the racial thing went by me.

6. Monsieur Le Maire… so I realise that this was seeded back in “Redemption” but it’s still another intriguing character. I’ll have to admit, I’ve not read any Victor Hugo. That needs to change soon. (I mean, it needed to change a long time ago but there’s no shortage of great books).

7. The concept of Shari as a double, triple or “poly” agent is intriguing. I think her introduction as an Illuminatus, and one of a reasonably high rank, conferred the expectation that she might be serving the Society’s interest but she’s also working with Thailog and as far as we can tell Prospero and Le Maire are allied with the Director. So her comment here plays as she’s infiltrating Prospero’s home but could also refer to her infiltrating the Illuminati or Thailog’s operation - given Thailog’s dependence on Sevarius, Prospero might have a particular interest in Anton’s antics and of course she made first contact with Thailog right after he contracted the good doctor in a particularly significant way, during a time where we learn he was cooking up a storm.

8. Gnash’s dialogue here felt very trad-Brooklyn. It’s interesting that the exo-frames are back so quickly.

9. It’s good to see more Brentwood. Still, I hope at some point we get the spotlight on him a little more and how he relates to Thailog. Perhaps the point at present is that he’s a quiet lackey-type whose real machinations may creep up on us unawares - after all, I somehow doubt the limits of his ambitions are serving Thailog.

10. For an arc explicitly billed as a Demona story, it’s a little surprising that she only turns up on the last page. Of course, Demona sneaking into the castle feels like a classic move. Although you’d think after “City of Stone”, Xanatos would have upped his game on securing it against her.

Another superb issue. [/SPOILER]

Ed

B - [SPOILER] I thought of Greg Weisman's mention of the Star Chamber as more a cousin to the mention of it in "The Merry Wives of Windsor" - that is, both Shakespeare and Weisman were thinking of the same organization. (It struck me after my last post that the Caesar remark was not a good analogy; a better one would be the occasional mentions of King Arthur and Merlin in Shakespeare's plays, such as the "Arthur's bosom" part in "Henry V" or the Fool in ""King Lear" uttering a sort of mock-prophecy and saying at the end "This prophecy Merlin shall make, for I live before his time".)

Incidentally, it struck me that Prospero's fondness for the "White Council" name for his organization might be a sign that he's a Tolkien fan; the notion of his eagerly reading "The Lord of the Rings" (with maybe a few comparisons of the magical elements in it with those that he'd experienced) appealed to me. (I can't resist wondering, now, whether Macbeth's read "The Lord of the Rings" - particularly because of John Rhys-Davies' role in the movie version, including, appropriately, the voice of Treebeard - one of Tolkien's inspirations for the Ents was how he thought the Birnam Wood scene should have been done.) [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Craig> [SPOILER] Greg confirmed that the general events of "Les Misérables" happened in the Gargoyles universe, so I think Monsieur Le Maire being Jean Valjean is the most straightforward explanation. He also doesn't seem the type to kill Shari based on their interaction, so it seems more likely she means she literally can't finish a story without dying. Yes, the two glowing daggers were floating. [/SPOILER]

CarumboZarumbo> [SPOILER] It might be Shari was just saying "the White Council" was old-fashioned, but my initial reading was the same as Craig's. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen> [SPOILER] I also thought of the Black Cauldron from Prydain. Of course, the Cauldron of Life, which echoes several mythological Celtic cauldrons with properties including raising the dead, has already appeared.

I think both of those things ("star chamber" and "Caesar") are Shakespeare shout outs. In the sense that they're not only in Shakespeare but a Shakespeare buff like Greg Weisman is well aware they were mentioned in Shakespeare and that's an added bonus for him in referencing them. Also, "Hyppolyta", and "Antiope", whose role the Hippolyta in A Midsummer Night's Dream was playing. [/SPOILER]

B

CARUMBO - [SPOILER] Very good point, and I've been wondering myself about the time gap between #3 and #4, and how that'll be handled, as well. [/SPOLER]

PHOENICIAN - [SPOILER] Actually, I think that viewing the mention of the Star Chamber as a Shakespeare reference is stretching it. It's only mentioned casually in "The Merry Wives of Windsor" (at the start of the play where Justice Shallow, complaining about the trouble that Falstaff has been making for him, threatens to make a "Star Chamber matter of it"), as simply part of the government machinery of Shakespeare's day (it was abolished by Parliament in 1641 as part of its clashes with Charles I that developed into civil war the following year). I'd see it as no more a Shakespeare reference than, say, Alesand naming Brooklyn "Caesar" in "Dark Ages: Alliance". [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

this is cool! I enjoy that we get to share different perspectives and genuinely learn from it and possibly collaborate with other users. looking forward to see more of this in the future.
restaurant booth upholstery - [kac46130 at vogco dot com]
Apollo

Something I hadn't considered before: issue #2 ended [SPOILER] in a very cliffhanger-y manner, but now we know (https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=1668) that issues #4-5 will be set after the Halloween Special - meaning that the next issue of Quest will have to end in a more or less tranquil manner (since during the Special no one was going "guys guys we need to stop Demona before she does something horrifying guys").

I wonder how we'll go from "Demona and an army of tin cans are invading the Castle" to "yup, things are perfectly under control now; no need to worry at all" in the span of about 20 pages; it'll be interesting to see.

I also wonder what will keep Demona occupied for so long: Quest 2 is set on July 19th/20th, and presumably Quest 3 will be set immediately afterwards; the Halloween Special was set - believe it or not - on October 31st, so that's a gap of at least three months and a couple of weeks before she moves again (and it could be as much as eight, if my assumption about Quest ending with the hatching of Egwardo turned out to be right). [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Phoen> Good catch on the [SPOILER] pendants glowing at dawn. You'd think I'd catch something like that. I don't think they did that exactly in "The Green", but it warrants another rewatch. And if this is a new idea of Greg's since the 90s (like female beast eyes glowing red), then I'm cool with it. In any case, I like it! They seem such a passive sort of magic. It's nice to give them some sparkle, so to speak.

I guess it makes sense that the cyclist with the package is Anton, but I did not catch that until you guys brought it up. Now I'm thinking why else would Greg give us few panels?! The whole thing amuses me: Thailog: "Sevarius, I need you to join me on a trip to Bermuda."
Anton: "My expertise in genetics and biology is required?"
Thailog: "No. I need you to ride a bicycle and drop something in the mail. Shari is busy."

I'm also wondering why Prospero couldn't sense where the Hand had went or Sevarius's holding of it. Curious. [/SPOILER]

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

[SPOILER] It's funny how the part of the story I've been thinking about the most has been in the opening page. Perhaps because it was also in the preview we had some time ago. Now, thanks to old AskGreg revelations, our understanding is that Vinnie is working for Taro. Of course, Canon-in-Training is subject to change, but that's not what I'm getting at. Goliath shrugs off the chance for financial remuneration, but he tells Vinnie his cause is "beneficial, admirable, and righteous". If it is Taro (and if its not some trap Vinnie is otherwise oblivious to), part of me wonders if it might have to do with some liquidating of Theme Park assets. I am very much speculating, and it feels WAY early in the timeline that we've been hinted at so far . . . but I do wonder that when the gargoyles that resettle in Wyvern, Scotland would benefit with a new castle.

For those still wondering, my hard copy proved that the digital version is currently missing page 4. But thankfully, that was at least previewed to us as well.

I love the pendants glowing at dawn. I can't remember if they did that in "The Green".

And then to the two big names that sent my head spinning on Wednesday: Paolo Prospero and Monsieur Le Maire. After seeing their names as largely canon-in-training and stubs, it was a delight to update their entries. I've been fortunate to see The Tempest with the Flagstaff Shakespeare Festival, while my only experience so far with Les Misérables is the 2012 film adaptation. I'm excited to revisit both classics as part of my extended 30th anniversary festivities.

And Todd, so happy to read you spotting the subtle reference to The Merry Wives of Windsor -- I was very lucky to see that hilariously performed at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in 2017, but I am no where near as familiar with the text.

I wonder who's flying the chopper -- Fox, David, and Alex don't seem to be in the cockpit, but Coldstone isn't focusing on that area anyhow.

Writing out loud here, so bear with me: I'm curious if Shahrizad's storytelling abilities always enthralls her listeners, or if she can share a story without manipulating her audiences. With Prince Malcolm walking off during one of her storytelling nights from 971, I'm guessing she has some control, or at least, who she directs that magic towards. She describes that not even her stories can distract someone enough not to hear an iron vault door ripped off its hinges, so perhaps Malcolm walking away doesn't require too much resistance (especially if he's just lost in his own thoughts).

But knowing what we know now, I'm wondering if Shahrizad was distracting the denizens of Wyvern for Peredur and Fleur to do some exploring. Perhaps that's also why Valdez wasn't so keen on listening in. I'm curious how on the level Shari and Thailog are. Maybe Thailog learning about the Stone of Destiny had some unforeseen consequences for the gargoyle entrepreneur.

I'm not as familiar with the Manhattan skyline as those that have lived there, but I'm always curious if I can spot any particular landmark in the artwork.

I like how Shahrizad refers to the Third Race as "The Children". I like how Shahrizad and Thailog are both running different distraction tactics for their operation to succeed.

Monsieur Le Maire being strong enough to handle Thailog has me wondering if he's like Macbeth and has trained for a significant portion of his (presumably) long life, or if he's a new flavor of superhuman that we haven't really encountered in this series (naturally, a point could be made that human immortals and sorcerers can be considered 'super').

Good eye on Anton -- Of course the drama-loving good doctor would have a costume change, lol.

Gnash connecting some early dots on Demona is great. Definitely Brooklyn's kid, and I'm wondering what encounters Gnash may have had with her in the TimeDance.

I've been reminded that Demona doesn't necessarily know about Owen's current status as Owen. That maybe the mention of his name is a taunt and that she really wants something from the Puck. If so, that naturally will get harder given Oberon's Law banishing him and severely limiting his true form and abilities to protecting Alex. Puck's flute and even the stone hand are decent theories, but wanting something from Xanatos's resources is also possible. It wouldn't be the first time she wanted something mundane from him, like access to PackMedia Studios.

Two issues in, Demona's still only in possession of 0.5/3 of the new Keys of Power. Wonder how much that might shift in the next issue! [/SPOILER]

Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

[SPOILER] Shari saying the council needed a new name absolutely seemed to me like a joke about a White Council being problematic, not a Tolkien reference. It's also not that tortured a joke to make. Though I took it more as her saying "that name makes it sound like we're all white." [/SPOILER]
Karrin Blue

[SPOILER] I'm looking forward to Jurgan's comments on Monsieur LeMaire; he's shown particular familiarity with "Les Miserables" in the comment room. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

CarumboZabumbo> [SPOILER] Yes, Jean Valjean being quite strong is part of his character. His nickname "Jean the Jack" was due to his incredible strength even when he was past his prime and was key to Javert identifying him when he served as mayor of Montreuil-sur-Mer. Yeah, I read the novel back in high school. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd - [SPOILER] Ariel being one of the Children makes sense to me as well, but I was a bit surprised to learn that Caliban is one of them too - in The Tempest, his mother Sycorax is described as a witch, so I thought perhaps he was a hybrid a-la Fox/Alex. He may still be, I guess - after all, Oberon was willing to count Alex as Third Race, so long as he trained in magic, despite him being 3/4 human. [/SPOILER]

Craig - [SPOILER] I'm going to be perfectly blunt here: if you see any racial undertones in that Shari/Prospero scene, I think you're torturing the text until it'll confess to anything. The idea is clearly that Shari thinks Prospero is too outdated and old school (she even calls him so on the plane) while she's trying to be all hip and down with the kids (assuming she survives to 2024, you can bet she'll be all over social media by then). [/SPOILER]

Nobody in particular - [SPOILER] I've been told that Valjean is actually freakishly strong in the literary version as well, so I stand corrected on that. Still, I have to assume he wasn't "remove the door of an iron vault from its hinges" strong in the book, right? [/SPOILER]

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

[SPOILER] Prospero's treasury intrigues me as well. A black cauldron unfortunately doesn't narrow it down as there are plenty of cauldrons of legend in the UK alone. It's kind of hard to tell, but it might be the same one that was unearthed with the Scrolls of Merlin back in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time." Might not be but it would be a fun callback.

Daggers and knives are harder to pin down, especially pairs of them. The design is distinctly European which both narrows it down as swords were more iconic in European myth and legend (knives are more of a Southeast Asian thing). If it wasn't for the scarlet red hilts my guess would be something along the lines of Carnwennan. The next best guess would be the parazonium of Roman legend. But I figure will have to wait and see and only if they're actually important at all. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

CRAIG - [SPOILER] I'll have to go back and look at that scene again, but when you mentioned the black cauldron, I immediately thought of Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain".

As I mentioned earlier (last week, I believe), Prospero living in Bermuda feels particularly appropriate, because it's thought that one of the inspirations for "The Tempest" was a shipwreck that took place in Bermuda in 1609. Bermuda even gets mentioned in the play, when Ariel speaks of the "still-vexed Bermoothes". (Prospero isn't the only famous wizard to have links to Bermuda, either. T. H. White had a scene in ""The Sword in the Stone" where Merlin becomes so exasperated at one point that he cries "Castor and Pollux blow me to Bermuda!" - and immediately winds up there. When he returns, he tells the young Arthur "Let that be a lesson to you never to swear." The Disney animated adaptation included a version of that scene, as well.)

And I also really enjoyed that scene between Goliath and Vinnie, and Goliath's unease on the subject of money (while dealing with the fact that, thanks to the late Renard, he now has a lot of it). [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

A few more Quest #2 thoughts.

[SPOILER]
I love Goliath's spiel on money. I find that Greg's dialogue is at its best when it's a character like Goliath, or many of the characters in Dark Ages, who speak in a more formal, classical manner. This feels like vintage Goliath, in its wisdom and eloquence. I hope someday to hear Keith David deliver this monologue.

Once again, I'm loving the artwork. Goliath still looks weird, but I love the title page splash of him arriving home, with all the atmospheric mist.

I'm always up for a good "character turning to stone in the middle of saying or doing something" gag. That takes me back!

The highlight of the issue for me is the Prospero/Shari stuff. I love the Illuminati and all this type of clandestine skullduggery. Shari became one of my favorite characters almost immediately when she first turned up in the SLG comics, and she just keeps getting more intriguing. The implication that Shari's storytelling abilities are magical makes sense to me. I do wonder about her line about her life depending on not revealing the ending of a story. Is the implication that she thinks Le Maire might kill her once she outlives her usefulness to him, so she always withholds some information to use as a bargaining chip? Or is there something more magical/mystical going on here, as Carumbo theorizes?

Like Todd, The Tempest also holds a special place in my heart, so it is really great to finally see Prospero here. What do we make of the name Paolo? As we know everything Greg writes has significance, why that name? (Incidentally, I note that the Gargwiki currently has his name misspelled in the first line, as "Paulo.")

I'm not fully convinced that Jean Le Maire is literally Jean Valjean. It's possible, but we've also seen characters in the Gargoyles universe who simply happen to share a name with a famous literary or historical counterpart, Harry Monmouth chief among them. It's possible that Greg is simply using the name to create some kind of parallel or to say something about Le Maire; I suppose we'll have to wait and see. (Also, I love his "clean living" line...this guy is shaping up to be quite interesting.)

I enjoy the way Greg plays the heist scenes in nonlinear fashion, intercutting between the planning and the heist itself in a way that made me think of Ocean's 11 a bit.

Interesting to see a reference to the White Council. I know Greg has said that given the time, he would incorporate every story ever written into the Gargoyles world (Alan Moore did something similar with The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, taking this approach to a crazy extreme). It's interesting to see a reference to a relatively newer (and still copyrighted) work. Unless the White Council is a reference that predates Tolkien?

Carumbo > My understanding of Shari advocating for a name change is that the notion of "white = good" is old-fashioned and has potential racist connotations. As to Shari's millenium-long effort at infiltrating the enemy, I don't think it's as straightforward as accomplishing one goal (replacing leadership, for example). I think it's much more of an ongoing chess match between the sides, with each trying to influence things in specific directions, and consolodating power/knowledge in subtle ways.

As with Mrs. Aguilar's collection in Issue 1, I'm very intrigued by the other objects in Prospero's vault. It looks like there are two daggers that are floating in midair (I think?). And a black cauldron, a very ornately designed book...any ideas on these objects?

[/SPOILER]


Overall, another very strong, enjoyable issue. Very much looking forward to the next installment.

Craig

My thoughts on "Gargoyle Quest" #2.

[SPOILER] I was particularly delighted to see "The Tempest" at last officially enter "Gargoyles", with Prospero on stage (alongside Ariel and Caliban getting mentions - with the indications that they're both Third Race, which made sense to me). I got a particular smile at Prospero's use of the term "White Council", since he definitely looked like a Tolkienesque wizard of the Gandalf or Saruman variety - and his proposed replacement names, such as the Star Chamber (an actual English government organization in Shakespeare's day; he even mentioned it in "The Merry Wives of Windsor").

And he's working with Monsieur LeMaire, who, judging from his also being called "Jean", probably is indeed a certain well-known Victor Hugo character.

Shari's clearly playing a double game here - working with both Thailog on the one side, Prospero and Monsieur LeMaire on the other - it'll be interesting to see how this winds up.

We also got a great reunion scene between the Manhattan clan and Jade and Turquesa - followed by Demona's attack on the castle (remote-controlled robots), and a cliffhanger of Demona threatening Owen (and with Alex presumably not in the room, no fear that he can turn into Puck and handle her that way - though Owen's proven many times he doesn't need Puck's magic to be a formidable figure; just look at him at the start of "Deadly Force").

Looking forward to the third issue. [/SPOILER]

Todd Jensen

Read Quest 2.

[SPOILER] Goliath's calling the cause of Vinnie's employer "beneficial, admirable and righteous", which can IMO mean one of two things: 1)Greg changed his mind (lol) and the employer isn't Taro, or 2)Goliath doesn't know who the employer is (even if we suppose Taro is on the level, I doubt Goliath would be so quick not only to trust him but compliment him); if it's the latter... hot damn Big G, you dumb.

So Angela can remember the voices of Jade and Turquesa even though she only met them once for a couple of nights over a year ago? Fairly impressive - I can't even remember what I ate yesterday for lunch.

We then move to Shari, and if you're wondering "is this the best she has ever looked?" the answer is "yes". Was her statement that the White Council needs a new name meant to be a slag against Tolkien? Because if so, screw you. Also, if I never see Greg Weisman talking about tracksuits again, it'll be too soon - that moment felt way too "MCU humour" to me.

Ok, let's see: this White Council appears to oppose the Illuminati, but last issue Demona said that Thailog had to recover something for her from the Illuminati... so I'm guessing Prospero and the others are Illuminati too, but they are trying to usurp the leadership of the Society from Peredur/Duval/Hemings/Fleur? I think that would make sense.

What makes less sense is that Shari has apparently been "infiltrating the enemy" at least since the tenth century; if you haven't succeeded in a millennium, I think you're doing a kinda crappy job, lady. Or, if Shari is not really infiltrating and is actually conning Prospero and Valjean, they're dumbasses for still trusting her.

Interesting that Caliban is apparently on good terms with Prospero - I'm guessing the attempted rape of Miranda didn't happen in the Gargverse ("Thou didst prevent me; I had peopled else this isle with Calibans"). Can't pretend I have much of interest to say about Valjean, since my knowledge of Les Misérables more or less begins and ends with "It's set in France, I think?" - but I have the slight feeling that "guy with super-strength" is pretty far from what Victor Hugo wrote.

Theory time! Shari says "as you know, my life depends on not telling you how it ends", which is obviously a reference to her literary counterpart, but seems to imply something about her immortality: could it be the price she pays for using the Grail? When talking about the Arthurian survivors Greg said (https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=843) that both Duval and Fleur have to pay a price for using it ("a very real physical cost" for him and "estrangement from Percival" for her); maybe it's the same for Shari too? She has to tell stories forever?

The Amulet is finally given back - pity we never saw it in-between The Green and now. And the very clever tin cans from The Reckoning return once again - Demona must have really loved the one she stole way back then. The Thailog vs Valjean fight, albeit brief, was cool - Qualano really makes you feel their physical strength through the page.

Sevarius as a cyclist slash smuggler of mystical artifacts. Lol.

And finally, the return of Demona's One True Love: Big Fat Guns! What does she want from Owen (and she specifically says Owen, not Xanatos or Puck)? I doubt it's as simple as "he has the third Key"... I admit I'm a bit stumped on this. [/SPOILER]


All in all, another fun issue, although the first one was better. I still think we won't be disappointed.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

Good morning, friends.

As usual, I've got my thoughts on Quest #2. Might be some repeating of myself since we saw bits and pieces of some of this in previews.

[SPOILER] - We wrap up Goliath's chat at the Gathering. By the way, it occurs to me how funny it is that The Gathering on Avalon (mentioned in this very chapter!) inspired the fan convention's name which in turn inspired the in-universe Gargoyle convention name. Full circle. Goliath makes a deal with Vinnie. I love that all the little Gathering (our universe) timeline moments are actually starting to appear in the Gargoyles Universe. Now that I know Greg intends to stick with them, they may warrant a revisit. Anyway, we all assume Vinnie's boss is Taro, but who knows? Goliath doesn't want the money, but the "beneficial, admirable, and righteous" cause he'll agree to. What could that be? Hmmm.

- Goliath heads home and finds that Bronx and Fu-Dog have brought Jade and Turquesa home with them. Kinda wondering how they got to the castle. Did the beasts really scale the entire building?! Or use the elevator? Or did the Mayan gargoyles glide them up? Not important, just a curious logistical issue. Goliath seems slightly shocked that they are STILL on their World Tour and you've got to see why! Goliath and Co. were gone about six months. J&T have been gone for over a year! No wonder they are so ready to get home!

- At this point the digital version of the comic on Kindle seems to be missing the page with Thailog and crew arriving on Bermuda (not a locale I expected to see in Gargoyles!) I assume and hope this page will be included in the print version and possibly corrected on kindle at some point as well. I don't have much else to say about this page except that I'm surprised they brought Sevarius along.

- Back in Manhattan, Angela hugging Turquesa is cute. Turquesa always seemed a bit more stoic and serious to me, but we really see a softer side to her in this chapter. And Broadway and Lex immediately realize that its time to return something that belongs to the Mayan Clan. It is easy to guess that he's talking about the Mayan Sun Amulet! I'm glad we have wrapped up that small thread finally. And it is touching how J&T react to getting it back. And we now know that it was in the Clock Tower, but Elisa retrieved it. Lucky for everyone that the artifact is so resilient. Anyway, I really appreciate that protecting and returning the Amulet will be a lasting bond between these two very different clans. And I'm sure Zafiro and Obsidiana will be thrilled to see it as well. Of course right now Z&O are probably just wondering when their clanmates will return! They've got a clutch of eggs due to hatch in a few months afterall! Sorry, I can talk about the Mayan Clan all day.

- Back to Bermuda, And Shari meets up with Prospero! I'll admit to knowing little about Prospero (and Caliban and Ariel who are mentioned as well). Gargoyles has taught me a lot about various historical and literary characters and events over the last 30 years, so I expect to know a lot more about these folks soon. Le Maire, however, I do know a little about, if from Bad Guys if nothing else. I'm very intrigued about the Redemption Squad infiltrating the Illuminati in "Redemption" now. I'll have to think about all of that a bit more. And all of your thoughts will be interesting, I'm sure.

- Jade and Turquesa chatting with Coldstone and Coldfire is quite a juxtaposition and not a conversation I ever thought I'd see. Coldstone always comes off a bit doom and gloom, but the way he talks about the pendants borders on ominous. Not sure what to make of Coldstone keeping tabs on the Family Xanatos except that it seems Demona wants them out of the building for her next move. Handy having Coldstone around, I guess.

- Thailog and Shari's plan is set in motion. Lots of distractions and interesting moments. Is it me or is Shari implying that her storytelling is magical? And the Third Race gets a couple mentions in this chapter. We rarely hear about them since the Gathering began. Brentwood gets his hands on... The Hand. Or does he? And Thailog wrestles with Le Maire and is matched in strength! Interesting. But the plan seems to have worked. Though who knows where the Hand is?

- And the Castle is attacked. By those darn eframes again. But not piloted by humans, but some sort of robot remote control. Another Recap Visor appearance. Moments I like here is Gnash ordering the beasts to protect the egg (alongside "Mom, Dad and Hudson"). Coldstone is perhaps somewhat unconvincingly playing the part and being restrained by Goliath once again. Jade and Turquesa protecting the Amulet. Owen, tired of the Castle being attacked AGAIN. And finally, it all being a distraction for Demona's arrival. Apparently, her Quest has led her to the Castle. The third New Key presumably. My thoughts immediately went to the Star of Arabia, but who knows. Of course, I could be reading this wrong. Maybe it isn't something that belongs to Xanatos, but rather something that Owen possesses. What could that be? Puck's Flute? Guess we'll have to wait and see... again.

- A good chapter, but definitely has a "middle chapter" feel. Building things up for sure. Highlights were the new character reveals, another Thailog scheme, and (for me) the return of the Mayan Amulet. It will be interesting to find out what happened between Jade and Turquesa and Demona in Buenos Aires and how that impacted what J&T will tell the Manhattan Clan and what Demona knows about them before her assault on the Castle. I still want to know how/if Demona knows about the Mayan Clan and all the possibilities there. Really liking where all of this is going and looking forward to our next chapter! [/SPOILER]


Those are my thoughts, can't wait to read yours!

Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

[SPOILER] I do so love when conflicting, shadowy organizations come to head. So we've got Demona's little cabal, the Illuminati by way of Thailog and Shari and the White Council by way of Monsieur Le Marie, Prospero and also Shari. Yeah, I'm confused on what's going on with Shari, maybe double agent, maybe triple agent. Or maybe she has an agenda of her own. As we saw in Dark Ages there is a certain independence to her such as when she stayed behind to look after the kids during the Wyvern's attack. Could be she's playing the field to see how this story ends.

But speaking of other unknown factors, we've got Vinnie and Goliath talking business and if Vinnie is indeed working for Taro this could be bad. It doesn't look like Goliath knows who Vinnie's employer is and Vinnie doesn't know about Taro's past encounter with the Clan. I have a feeling Taro might be looking for payback against the gargoyles and is planning to use economics as his dagger.
[/SPOILER]


I'll have to go into more details later. But I'm loving this story so far.

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Craig: [SPOILER] I'm pretty sure the page is just missing (per the preview, it should be the page just before Angela and Turquesa embrace), and hopefully the digital version will be updated soon enough. [/SPOILER]

Full thoughts tomorrow. But my head is spinning XD

Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."

Prior post was me. Sigh. Sorry.
Craig

Quest #2

[SPOILER]
Don't have time to give my full in-depth thoughts right now (I need to get some sleep), but some preliminary observations.

Prospero confirmed! So excited; I've been anticipating him more than probably any other character since Greg made the reveal back in 1998, or whenever it was. And Shari is a double agent...or, more accurately, a triple agent (maybe?). Tough to be entirely sure, but her character is even more intriguing than ever. Also interesting that she says her life depends on not telling how a story ends. This is obviously an allusion to her literary origins, but I wonder how literally to take this line, and what it might mean in a broader context.

Was not expecting Monsieur Le Maire here. This is really shaping up to be an all hands on deck affair. And it seems that he has super-human strength. Hm.

It seems like one page from the preview posted on Bleeding Cool was a ringer...two of the panels on that page are not in the issue at all, and the panel that is in the issue has completely different dialogue. I wonder if this is an indicator that Greg is getting more involved in how these previews are doled out, and is engaging in a bit more deliberate obfuscation (we've previously speculated on whether or not the written solicitations are deliberately misleading; now we have fully drawn art pages that are not in the issue).

Interesting that Demona says Owen has something she wants (while quoting the Captain's line "It's worse than that" from "Awakening"). The framing of the panel seems to place Owen's stone hand in a prominent position...is there some correlation between Owen's hand and the Hand of Valmont?!
[/SPOILER]

Anonymous

[SPOILER] If Brooklyn did meet himself on that second Timedancing adventure, he ought to make some remark about whether he's going to encounter himself in some way at every Timedance (he met himself in stone sleep atop Castle Wyvern during his first Timedance). [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen

I had a theory on this sort of thing, one that's popped up since we got a glimpse of Brooklyn's time travels back in "Underwater." I'll put them in spoilers just to be safe.

[SPOILER] It's shown that Brooklyn, Fu and Katana were on the Brooklyn-class cruiser U.S.S. Nashville in 1942, roughly around the time the ship saw a lot of action in the Doolittle Raid, the defense of the Aleutians among others. One part of my theory is that the Time Dancers spent the year of 1942 on the ship. The other part is that when their egg was due to hatch in 1978, this time they were on the Austin-class USS Nashville which had been recently commissioned. Brooklyn and Katana took this as a sign and named their newly hatched child after the ship, which would also explain why Gnash wears a United States Navy shirt in the present day. He and his parents are just closely associated with the name. [/SPOILER]

Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

40 years is a lot of time and the world is a mighty big place. Brooklyn likely visited the same place but at different times and the same times but different places. I imagine he crossed paths with himself at some place/time, but there is no reason to assume it was in the 1970s. I kind of doubt Brooklyn would discover in his second leg that his Dance was going to be lasting decades. And I'm sure there are more events happening in the 70s elsewhere. So, is it possible: sure. But I kind of doubt it.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Second.

Yesterday, on the Gargoyles subreddit, I made an attempt at constructing a (rough) timeline for the events of TimeDancer, and another user (Haunting-Fix-9327) came up with a theory I'm semi-ashamed to admit had never crossed my mind before (I'm putting what follows under spoilers, but I don't know if the stuff that Greg revealed right on this site counts as such):

[SPOILER] 1)We know that Brooklyn's second adventure is going to the late '70s with Mary and Finella to engineer the Xanatos/Demona alliance;
2)We know that Gnash was born in 1978.

Haunting's theory is simple but makes perfect sense: what if those two events are somehow connected with each other? What if, for example, the younger Brooklyn met his older counterpart who was there for Gnash's hatching? [/SPOILER]


I don't know about you, but personally I'm baffled by the fact that I've never seen anyone suggest it before, despite how much sense it makes.

CarumboZabumbo
Noi siamo le creature della notte! Noi siamo... i Gargoyles!

First! Been a while.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"