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Comment Room Archive

Comments for the week ending October 6, 2024

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And remember, "spam" has three out of four letters in common with "scam".

MATTHEW - Good points, particularly about Osborn handling the scheming better than Dino Dracon. (I remember Bishansky summing Dino up as a guy who's trying to play the part of the master manipulator, but displays a clumsiness indicating that he's more at home with straightforward violence.)

Todd Jensen

Thanks Todd. We have discussed how Greg has repurposed some ideas for different projects. Case in point, though we haven't seen the Benedict and Beatrice style banter from Brooklyn and Katana's relationship, we did see it in Wally and Artemis.

Just like in the show, there is another party stirring up the gangs and manipulating things from behind the scenes. But Osborn is a lot better at staying in the shadows than Dino was.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Sorry for the double post. Out of curiosity, I did a quick Google, and this exact same screed has been posted in the comments sections of numerous articles and websites over the past few months. So regardless of its initial authorial providence (human or A.I.), presumably its software is scraping the Internet for certain keywords (such as "illuminati") and spamming it as it deems "appropriate."
Craig

I don't know, Todd, that spam post read like A.I. to me. But either way, certainly one of the most bizarre (and slightly amusing) spam posts I've seen here.
Craig

JURGAN - I'd forgotten about the "Twilight" series, but that's a good point.

MATTHEW - Thanks for the latest "Spectacular Spider-Man" commentary. I noted your comments on arcs that didn't get to further develop, thanks to no Season Three (though at least "The Spectacular Spider-Man" didn't get a "Goliath Chronicles"-type third season; let's be grateful for that). It also struck me that this definitely isn't the last time that Greg Weisman would do a "gang war" arc, if for a different series.

And we've clearly got a new spammer (a human this time, I assume, rather than a bot - though these days, it's probably more difficult to tell).

Todd Jensen

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bryan patrick - [famousdako at gmail dot com]
lee

Figured I should get this done before the end of the week, the next Spectacular Spider-Man arc ranking, this time it's Criminology 101 and the gang war.

Accomplices- 8/10. This is where we get introduced to the major players of both the present conflict and the ones to come, and fittingly it's kicked off by Osborn's scheme. Hammerhead representing Tombstone and the status quo, Silver Sable representing Silvermane and the previous regime, and Dr. Octopus representing the new guard. There's a couple of nice features foreshadowed in the conflict like Sable's dedication to her father. Or that despite his skill as a fighter and his high position in the Big Man's organization, Hammerhead struggles when he can't intimidate someone with threats or muscle. And despite his work taking down supervillains, Peter is wholly underprepared for the intricacies of the various gangs or movers and shakers, which is why it's important that both Foswell and Captain Stacy feature so heavily as his new mentors for the arc. Speaking of unprepared, Pete's also caught off-guard by the return of superhero life interfering with his personal life, or that he's not exactly focused on his current relationship.

Sadly, because of cancellation there's a lot that doesn't get picked up (will be seeing that a lot in the future). This is Kingsley's (or the Kingsleys') only appearance the specs for the Rhino armor remain a plot thread that isn't followed up on.

Probable Cause- 9/10. We get a ride along, some developments (and degeneration) of relationships, and a return of the Enforcers. This one does the heavy lifting continuity wise as Hammerhead's failures are catching up to him and his hardheadedness (heh) means he's not only willing to sabotage his and his Tombstone's side out of pettiness but he's completely unaware that Osborn is subtly manipulating him. Plus there's an off-hand bit with Osborn finding a new scientist to help with the creation of supervillains. It's not mentioned, but I also like the little detail that Octavius' syndicate is slipping away from him with Tinkerer willing to upgrade the hired help for the competition.

Things are also packed on the other side of the episode: Mary Jane and Mark's attraction moves out into the open, the secret of Harry's addiction also moves out into the open which costs Midtown their championship but does continue Flash's improvement as a character and his chances with Sha Shan even while Harry continues his own downward trend. It's just one line, but Stan Carter's comment on Spidey not going far enough does make me wonder if or how they'd adapt the Sin-Eater story. Alas.

Gangland- 7/10. This is an odd one for me, it's my favorite episode of the arc but it also concludes the gang war arc before there's chance for it to really start. Silvermane is arrested apparently not long after he's released and the war between the gangs is depicted in the events of "Accomplices" or off-screen. Again, it could benefit from being a a four episode arc rather than three, but that would take away from another good episode. I didn't notice it the first time, but Osborn is shows up in each episode to move the gang war involved and once the dust settles, there's still one more piece in play for control of New York's underworld.

Continuity wise it's still pretty strong. Mark and MJ are doing well with their "not relationship" but all that good luck will soon turn around with the reintroduction of Blackie Gaxton. Flash and Sha Shan pretty much cement their relationship despite his concerns and the Peter/Gwen/Liz situation goes from unspoken drama to a flat out problem as Peter's emotional noncommitment to Liz in favor of Gwen has gotten to the point that everyone can see it.

That's it for this arc. I'll conclude the Spectacular rankings next week.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

" (There were also a lot of non-Disney fiction books on gargoyles, most of which were romances. I wonder how many of the authors of those books were influenced by Goliath and Elisa when they chose to write love stories involving gargoyles.)"

I suspect the bigger reason was Twilight creating a whole subgenre of monster romance stories.

Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]

MATT - Out of curiosity, I looked up books on gargoyles on Barnes and Noble's website, and discovered the upcoming Little Golden Book among them. (There were also a lot of non-Disney fiction books on gargoyles, most of which were romances. I wonder how many of the authors of those books were influenced by Goliath and Elisa when they chose to write love stories involving gargoyles.)

MATTHEW - And I've noticed that in Norse myths and the Welsh tales in the Mabinogion, a lot of inanimate objects - not only swords like Excalibur or spears like Gungnir, but also cauldrons, cloaks, and various tools - had names as well. I can't help wondering if Hudson had encountered enough of them before the Wyvern Massacre to prompt his words "Must you humans name everything?"

Todd Jensen

Considering humans have had a long, long history of naming ships, gargoyles probably think this is just an extension of that.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Todd> Thanks for sharing about the little golden book. Where did you learn about that? I don't have little kids at home, but I'll definitely pick up a copy anyway!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

MATTHEW - Thanks for clarifying that.

Incidentally, today is "Name Your Car Day". I'd like to see the gargoyles' (particularly Hudson's) response to that one, and what they'd have to say about humans even insisting on naming inanimate objects.

Todd Jensen

Thanks Todd, though I should've clarified that the next thing I write *here* wouldn't be so bleak, like commenting on the Bronx Christmas issue or getting back to ranking the next Spectacular Spidey arc.

The thing that stood out to me was the tagline of Manhattan turning into still and silent winter wonderland. Kind of reminds me of the Isle of Silence from the Thor comics.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

Oh, and I just found out that they're coming out with a "Gargoyles" Little Golden Book next May. The description indicates that it's a sort of introduction to the main characters, aimed at beginning readers. I doubt it'll be up there with the Dynamite comics, but "Gargoyles" fans with younger children might be interested.
Todd Jensen

CRAIG - Thanks. This is the first time we've seen Bronx interacting with cats (apart from the first Fleecs cover, and there I suspect it was his new dog friends who were really interested in chasing the cat, while Bronx was more eager to go after the pigeons).

Bronx was in the same room with Cagney twice in the series - the homecoming at the clock tower in "The Gathering Part One", and when the clan had to take refuge in Elisa's apartment after the clock tower's destruction in "Hunter's Moon Part Three" - but we never saw them respond to each other. Given what else was going on on both those occasions, I think that's entirely understandable.

Todd Jensen

Todd: I believe that cover is by Trish Forstner, who collaborated with Fleecs on his covers, so that makes sense! I’m glad they keep coming back to some of the same cover artists. All the covers for the Winter Special look terrific.
Craig

Spotted a few alternate covers for the Winter Special. MY favorite was the one which showed Bronx with three small cats; that's the cover I'll be ordering. It's right up there with the Fleecs covers (the ones I specifically chose for the "Here in Manhattan" issues).
Todd Jensen

MATT - Good point about Season Two having those as well (with the Broadway episode actually being two episodes after the Brooklyn one, with "Legion" in between).

MASTERDRAMON - Good point on the most likely inspiration for "For It May Come True".

And thanks for that link to Greg Weisman's comments on it. I'd remembered those as I wrote that piece, which offered an additional reason for caution - but I still couldn't resist engaging in a little speculation.

CRAIG - Yes, "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" was one of the better "Goliath Chronicles" episodes - including the fact that it made up for "Ransom" in how it handled Fox. (Helping the gargoyles out of self-interest - she's tired of herself and her family being attacked by anti-gargoyle mobs - getting a couple of friends to pretend to be in distress for Broadway to come to their rescue - complete with Xanatos watching it, recognizing what Fox was up to, and smiling in admiration a la the ending of "Upgrade", and her big fight with Jackal and Hyena.) Of course, I doubt that any of the gargoyles will be going to L. A. any time soon, given that New York probably has its own talk shows (I recall Greg Bishansky doing a very funny critique of "The Goliath Chronicles" where Goliath was telling off the rest of the clan for their actions in it, and made precisely that case to Broadway).

Todd Jensen

Sixth.

While I have no idea whether "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" was inspired by an idea of Greg's, it does feel like a story idea that could comfortably fit into canon. Indeed, I've always felt that was one of the better episode concepts from TGC (written by Cary Bates, although I don't know if he had any hand in coming up with the idea, or if it was just handed to him by Eric Lewald). It was fun to see Fox going back to her showbiz roots, and the idea of the gargoyles doing a PR tour isn't a bad idea. In fact, we sort of see them doing this in "Trick or Treat." In a way, one might argue that Greg's "courtroom" story was split into two episodes by TGC team: "...And Justice for All" and "Broadway Goes to Hollywood," since Broadway's goal in going on television is basically the same as Goliath's goal in his hearing. For that reason, doing such a plot in the comics might seem redundant, even if it's sort of a cute idea and I wouldn't mind seeing Greg's take. (And more Fox is never a bad thing.)

Todd > Yes, "Angels in the Night" does feature a shot of Susan hugging Bronx.

Craig

To quote Greg (funnily enough, in a response to you Todd, though it's so old it doesn't have your username saved to the post):

"To the extent that the first two you mentioned were 'inspired' by ideas that I had suggested in my notes to the new team but wound up having absolutely NOTHING to do with what I suggested, you could argue that MANY TGC episodes were inspired by my notes to the new team, including the Proteus episode, the trial, the Illuminati, a Bronx episode, a magical fantasy episode, etc. In a way, that made them even more frustrating for me."

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=188

So "For It May Come True" doesn't appear to have its genesis from any specific story idea, just a general suggestion to do a "magical fantasy episode"...and as we all know the TGC crew were VERY short on time, it seems they took that as a cue to crib liberally from It's a Wonderful Life.

Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"You said everything has a name. I'll name this ability of mine too. 'Stone Free.' Because I'll become free of this ocean of stone." - Jolyne Cujoh

Todd> I don't think that the Trio Triptych format is a coincidence. Seasons 1 and 2 and TGC (minus Awakening and The Journey) all started with three episodes dedicated to the Trio.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

Thanks for the latest poem, Matthew - and indeed, the poem for October will *have* to be less bleak than this one.

Please forgive me for a post involving "The Goliath Chronicles", but the announcement of the upcoming Winter Special about Bronx, and the speculations that this might be the story that the "Goliath Chronicles" production team turned into "A Bronx Tail", got me wondering about the story ideas that got turned into the various "Goliath Chronicles" episodes.

We know that "Ransom" was based on an idea of Greg Weisman's about tricksters kidnapping Alex, "Runaways" based on the Timedancer story, and "And Justice For All" on Goliath's hearing (which we finally got in "Here in Manhattan"). We haven't gotten the trickster story yet, so we can't compare it to "Ransom". We do have both pairs of the other two stories, however. "Runaways" just took the focus on Brooklyn and his being in a troubled mood (especially feeling alone after seeing how Broadway and Angela had become a couple). "And Justice For All" was slightly closer to the "Goliath's hearing" story; in both cases, Goliath is captured by the human authorities, insists on having a day in court rather than getting broken out of prison and finally gains his freedom that way, and there's a gang boss involved - though with a lot of major differences, of course. We don't have the Winter Special yet, so we can't do a compare-and-contrast with "A Bronx Tail" beyond that both feature Bronx on his own. Here's a look at the other episodes and how likely it is that each one was based on a story that we know about (whether from the comics or from Greg's mentions).

BROADWAY GOES TO HOLLYWOOD: No candidates so far; we haven't yet gotten a story specifically focused on Broadway in either the SLG or Dynamite comics (the closest was Broadway being the narrator in #3 of "Here in Manhattan"). It might have stemmed from a story idea that Greg hasn't revealed yet. Or it might have been entirely the new production team's creation, to ensure that all three members of the trio got a story. (It struck me that the first three single-episodes of "Gargoyles" each featured one of the trio; so did the first three episodes of "The Goliath Chronicles" after "The Journey" - and that they're in the same order, first, one on Lexington - "The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Ransom", second, one on Brooklyn - "Temptation" and "Runaways", and finally one on Broadway - "Deadly Force" and "Broadway Goes to Hollywood". It's probably a coincidence, though.)

THE DYING OF THE LIGHT: No candidates yet from the comics stories, either. (The Double Date story did feature an adaptation of the scene between Hudson and Jeffrey Robbins, but that was a case of Greg borrowing from one of the few good moments of "The Goliath Chronicles".)

GENESIS UNDONE: This one just might have been based on the Double Date story idea; both feature Thailog and the Clones, and obtaining the clan's DNA with Sevarius intending to use it for further creations. The similarities end after that; Thailog and the Clones don't suffer from a virus that turns them to stone in the Double Date story, there's no counterpart to the Double Date itself in "Genesis Undone" (Elisa isn't even referred to), the DNA gets obtained a different way in both stories (and we don't even see the results in the Double Date story; they'll be saved for a later story, and will probably be very different from "Little Anton") - not to mention that Sevarius and Thailog are at odds in "Genesis Undone", but working together in the Double Date story. However, the list of similarities between "Runaways" and "Timedancer" is just as small, so I think it's possible that "Genesis Undone"'s basis was the Thailog part of the Double Date story.

GENERATIONS: Both it and "Gargoyles Quest" feature Demona prominently, and involve Angela's hope that Demona might change for the better (a hope that was dashed in "Generations", and while we haven't seen the last two issues of "Gargoyles Quest", based on Demona's track record, I doubt Angela's hopes will be fulfilled in that one either). Of course, we don't know if Greg had thought of that one yet when offering ideas to the "Goliath Chronicles" production team, but it is the strongest candidate so far.

FOR IT MAY COME TRUE: No candidates for the "basic inspiration" of this episode either. (Titania's appeared in "Here in Manhattan", for Renard's deathbed scene, but I'm not sure that this was the foundation for her role in the Goliath Chronicles story.)

TO SERVE MANKIND: I've wondered recently if the "Stone of Destiny" story might have been the loose foundation for this one. Both feature the Illuminati as the antagonists, with Xanatos featured as an Illuminati member but working at cross-purposes against them (rescuing the gargoyles in the "Goliath Chronicles" episode, planning to give the Illuminati another copy of the Stone of Destiny while keeping the real one for himself). The similarities end there, but again, as I pointed out in my compare-and-contrast of "Runaways" and "Timedancer", that isn't much of an obstacle; if the Goliath Chronicles production team changed a time travel adventure into Brooklyn helping a couple of runaway children in present-day Manhattan, they could equally have changed a scheme to steal a historical relic in London into an attempt to assassinate a visiting statesman in New York, thus removing the complications of a trip abroad for the clan.

SEEING ISN'T BELIEVING: I'm certain that this one was based on the "New Olympians" spin-off idea.

ANGELS IN THE NIGHT: The one "Goliath Chronicles" episode that I suspect wasn't based on any of Greg Weisman's proposals, but designed entirely to be a series finale. (It does have a couple of parallels with the Halloween Special, though I believe these to be coincidental as well. In both, Castaway goes overboard in his war on the gargoyles by threatening the human public as well as the gargoyles - though in different ways; and on a more believable scale in the Halloween Special, of course - which gets him and his followers arrested. Also, while I'm not able to check on this - and I don't know if anyone here is brave enough to rewatch that episode to confirm it - it's been reported that Billy and Susan were shown in the crowd at the end of "Angels in the Night", petting Bronx, and we see them meeting, and Susan petting, Bronx at the end of the Halloween Special.)

Todd Jensen

Third!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"

New day of the week, last day of the month so it's time for the next section of my poem, "A Year on the Streets."

September

Age out, hate the shame.
Kicked out? You’re to blame.
New rules, a new place.
We’re stuffed together in a familiar space.

Age out, don’t pout.
Something wrong with you, no doubt.
Pull yourself up, if you don’t work, you don’t get fed.
Consider yourself lucky; in another country you’d be dead.

Age out, hate the game.
Blackout, it’s all the same.
Got to escape the situation, so I take another taste.
Agreeing with the voices, I’m nothing but a waste.

Age out, want to shout.
This bad life’s been drawn out.
“Gotta be safer out there,” says the voice inside my head.
Foster’s beaten me, I’ll take the street instead.


I promise the next thing I write won't be so depressing.

Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!

First

Watching the Beetlejuice episode "To Beetle or Not to Beetle". Yeah features Shakespeare. BJ states that he is the brother of the Weird Sisters.

Sure that would canon.XD

Antiyonder