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Anonymous writes...

Hi, I'm curious...what was life like growing up for Goliath(especially in his warrior-trainee years). I'm wondering whether or not he had a stressful time in his warrior-trainee stage. Well I'm sure he did, I'm just asking you to confirm it(if you can). I'm wondering because I'm curious as to what shaped him(speaking as if he were real) to be the person he is today. Judging from his character attributes(which I absolutely admire; "love" even) I'm sure he had a very hard time when he reached puberty. In my mind I see him as a poor troubled youth who is both admired(for his looks and talents) and absolutely hated(for the same things by his clanmates who were jealous of him). Always torn between the need to succeed to please his elders but not succeed too highly to keep his clanbrothers from hating his guts even more than they already did.

Greg responds...

Actually, I think Goliath was a bit sheltered and naive. Not from danger, of course. He faced plenty of that. But until he got quite a bit older, he was less aware of deceipt.

Given that he took danger as a given, I don't think Goliath would think he had a very tough childhood.

As to his youth and training, that's what GARGOYLES: THE DARK AGES was created to explore (among other things).

Response recorded on February 01, 2001

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Corrine Blaquen writes...

Was Hudson's mate killed or did she die naturally?

Greg responds...

She did not die "naturally". *whatever THAT means*

Response recorded on December 22, 2000

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Ray Kremer writes...

Vows. I always prefer this style of time travel theory, when you affect events in the past you are fulfilling history, not changing it. Too few time travel stories do this, most instead taking the track of messing up the time line and then putting it back, or else just changing an unpreferred event into something else. New timelines, alternate timelines, erased timelines, it all just gets too messy sometimes. Also fun are the "cause it by trying to prevent it" stories, done with prophecy in Greek myth and time travel today. MIA even got into the act, though in a most unique fashion.

"More's the pity." I love that line too. And Morgan Shepard's wonderfully expressive voice just adds to the whole experience. I'll be the one to ask this: In the plan for Dark Ages, would we have seen the events of Vows from the other side of things?

Greg responds...

Eventually. Dark Ages begins in 971. Vows was set in 975.

Morgan Shepard was great, but Keith David said "More's the pity."

Response recorded on November 17, 2000

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Chapter XXI: "Vows"

Written by Shari Goodhartz
Michael Reaves, Story Editor

Benny: "But Daddy, when it's dark they get alive. But when it's light, the get frozen like a statue."

Last night, the kids, my sister, my wife and I all watched "Vows" together. Time to ramble.

Back to the Golden Cup Bakery Building. As I noted in the previously posted memo about this episode, I wanted a little opening battle, but I didn't want to waste time in a tight, packed script explaining how this came about. It does beg the question though. Assume that X contacted Elisa. She told Goliath. He went ALONE? His friends allowed this? Hmmm.

Xanatos knows from the letter to himself what to do, but I sometimes wonder just how detailed the letter was. I like to think it was fairly sketchy. That exactly HOW Xanatos got Goliath to come was his own machinations. Otherwise, though he takes the credit for the letter, the truth is that the plan itself wasn't his idea. He got the idea from the letter. And he wrote the letter based on what he had done, which he had gotten from the letter. None of this is really his to own, though he does claim ownership. So I like to think that at least some of the details were X's. For example, X knows what G will respond to, i.e. Demona.

Hudson, on hearing about the wedding, suddenly makes the connection to the long ago incident when he met the Goliath from the future. So he's strangely ambivalent. Elisa on the other hand, seems flat out jealous to me. After the events of "The Mirror" and "Eye of the Beholder", she's much more aware and focused on her feelings for Goliath. SHE DOES NOT WANT TO ACT ON THOSE FEELINGS. At this time, she thinks it's impossible. But that doesn't change how she feels. And now, she's jealous. Goliath's feelings for Elisa are just as intense, but so are his feelings for the "Angel" of his youth. He HAS to give it one last chance. (And this will be the last chance. The final nail in the coffin of his and Demona's "marriage".) Brooklyn, meanwhile, is just knee-jerk against anything involving Demona.

PETROS XANATOS is introduced. Again, I wonder why he was invited. Was he also included in the letter? Or did Xanatos invite him to prove something to his father. Is X that needy? Or did X invite him to the wedding, because of course he'd invite his father to his wedding, and his already planned "honeymoon" to 975 shouldn't alter his decorum. Perhaps he's mildly surprised his father winds up coming along? Anyway, Petros was a fun character. A tough hard physical man. With morals. A great contrast to the son. I knew even then that we'd give Petros and David an arc to their relationship, (one that eventually would culminate in Gathering2).

"Oh, reason not the need." A little King Lear is always nice. And I love Petros' attitude on the line, "And the armor?" I mean what would you say to your son if you saw him dressed like that? I'd like to know how many people had sort of forgotten that X was even wearing armor (we're so used to it) until Petros made an issue of it?

I love all the irony in the dialogue between Petros and David. David knows what he's planning. He must be smiling when Petros says "I'd like to get my hands on the man who gave you that coin." And when David says, "Someday, I'll prove to you that I'm a self-made man," he must really be patting himself on the back.

I love the voice work of Keith and Marina when doing their teen-age counterparts. So subtle, yet it's always clear which Goliath and Demona is talking at any given moment.

CONTINUITY:
Gotta love that storage room in the clock tower. The Eye of Odin, the Grimorum, half the Phoenix Gate, and, oh, yes, a comatose Coldstone. By the way, despite what the memo said, I think generally, Goliath carried that Gate in the pouch attached to his belt. Not behind some brick. We hadn't actually come up with that pouch yet, not until the World Tour. But using RetCon, I think that's where he kept it until they moved to the clock tower and Demona tried to kill him, Hudson and Elisa in "Long Way to Morning".

One interesting thing: this is the first episode where we actually CONFIRM that the ILLUMINATI does exist. Matt's mentioned it. Even chased it in SILVER FALCON, but we've never been shown any proof of it's existence until now. Was anyone surprised by that?

Judge Roebling was interesting in theory, though not so much in the episode. I'd like to do more with him some day. I also thought that it was interesting that despite seeing the tape of the Gargoyles in advance. And not reacting outwardly when he saw Goliath, he still gasps when Demona enters. What is it about her? When she entered, Benny turned to me and said: "She's queen of the Gargoyles." Oh. So that's it.

(And everytime Xanatos and Fox are on screen together, Benny likes to point out that he and Erin dressed up as them at the last Gathering. "That's me. That's you, Erin.")

To some extent, X must have filled D in on his plan. I love her "acting" when she enters and gives her bitter "excuse" for being there to Goliath. She's playing hard to get!

I love Petros: "Unnacceptable." He's still trying to teach David the error of his ways.

The Gate itself is very idiosyncratic. It's size, the size of its portal, and the duration the portal stays open seems to vary not just from episode to episode but from scene to scene. Sometimes it annoys me, like when Princess Elena removes the Gate from her sleeve, and suddenly it's bigger than her hand. But now I'm just amused by it. Again, if you think of it as a steam valve for the timestream, it explains a lot.

I love the little sound that Paca put in when the two pieces of the Gate first come together. What a tip-off that was, yet it's subtle. Did anyone think about the significance of the talisman that Demona had shared with Goliath before she started speaking in Latin and flames appeared out of nowhere?

It was hard to make people understand the time loop a bit. But it seemed really hard to make them see why I kept wanting to repeat scenes to show the connective tissue. We had to squeeze in Owen's "Honeymoon" line the second time. No one left space for it.

For the first of many times in the series, someone (X) says the line: "It's not where, it's when". (Erin: "I know when.")

I love X & Fox's relationship. "Having fun." "A marvelous time." Great stuff.

Hudson gets a close look at 1995 Goliath and immediately sees the age and wear and tear on the guy. (I love the shot of Goliath gagging him.) That says a lot for Hudson, because the visual difference between the two Gs was extremely subtle in the animation -- when it existed at all.

Knowing what we had planned (more or less) for Avalon, we were already laying groundwork here for that. Setting up the combined power of the Gate, Grimorum and Eye. Setting up the Archmage's desire for that power. Further demonstrating his enmity for the people he'd wind up using. Of course, making Demona his apprentice was fun. Tells a lot about her own desire for power that even when she was a good girl, she was still willing to work for the Archmage in order to learn his secrets. Willing even to steal for him.

The Norman Ambassador and Prince Malcolm make a BIG deal about how odd the Xanatoses' clothes are. But were they THAT strange? Was Fox's wedding gown that odd? And even if they were strange, did they look as shabby as Prince Malcolm seemed to suggest?

Not every episode gives you a double wedding. Fox and David. Elena and Malcolm. Hey, did anyone notice that we married off our lead villain? That was very daring, and we all but threw it away in Act One. Was anyone expecting Fox and X to really get married? And once they were, did you think you'd see them have a kid by season's end? I think we broke new ground there.

I like the exchange between Goliath and Hudson. Goliath's trying to explain that he's not a creature of sorcery, but a time traveler. H: "And I suppose you came back in time on the wind." O.k., well sorcery was involved if you're gonna get technical. And Goliath has some amusing tense problems while trying to describe what happened in his recent past, Hudson's FAR future. Then Hudson looks him in the eye and decides to trust him on no further evidence. Cool.

I knew a girl named Bryant from Bar Harbor, Maine once. That's where we got X's home town.

Fox is so proud of her man. But I love Petros' "Mr. Big-Shot Time Traveler" line. Or rather I love the way Morgan Shepard read the line.

How hard did Demona try to do things differently from the way she remembered them being done? She knows Goliath is going to fly down to try and join her and her younger self. She tries to leave before he can get there. But the gate stays open long enough for him to go with. Did it ever occur to her to go somewhen else other than 994? I guess part of it could be chalked up to dim memory. It was over a thousand years ago. And Demona lived through that 1000 years. Even for a very significant event in her life, it must still be very hazy.

That exchange between Demona and Demona is a lot of fun. Demona is so brutal to Demona. (And, hey, she spells out the Gate's power to any audience member who hasn't yet caught on.) "Do not share it with-- Do not share it!" I love that line. Also:

"I am what you will become."
"I will never be like you."
"I don't want to hurt you."
"And I don't want to BE you."

pretty cool stuff.

I also like the moment when we have two gates rolling about on the floor and young Demona and older Goliath both bend over to pick them up. At first we had a lot of discussion as to who should pick up which gate. But the discussion became moot, since after the gate pieces were reunited, they almost always seemed like they had never been broken in the first place. Magic.

And the young Demona, older Goliath scene is also gorgeous.

"What am I to do?"
"Nothing."

Love that. Love his whole "Do nothing/attend the petty jealousy" speech. I think it's very pretty. Very sad. At that moment, does Goliath hope he's changing the future? Or is he simply trying to spare this young Angel a couple extra decades of pain?

Showing Demona's natural bents again: Goliath isn't sure if he remembers the incantation, though he's heard it multiple times by this point. Young Demona, having only heard it ONCE, does remember and uses the Gate perfectly.

"Time Travel's funny that way." At least it is in the Gargoyle Universe with the strict, strict rules that I imposed. Of course, I've always thought that those strict rules made the stories more challenging for the writer and, yet, more fun and satisfying for the viewer.

I also really like Petros' "American Penny" speech. For once the "Xanatos Tag" of victory doesn't go to David.

Where did the expression "More's the pity." come from? I've heard it many times. I know what it means, though that's more from sound and context than from the words themselves. What am I quoting when I use it? Does anyone know? (This isn't a contest. I really don't know.)

Finally, my tape has the weird mistake ending that first aired, which shows Demona and Goliath in the clock tower. It's pretty, but it drives me nuts and I think it's really confusing. But I've talked about that many times before, and I'm sick of it, so this time, I'll let it go.

COMMENTS WELCOME!


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Todd Jensen writes...

Another "Vows" thought. Princess Elena's being of Norman ancestry has two interesting features about it (at least, interesting to me).

1. I did some research on the subject and found that the Duke of Normandy in 975 was one Richard the Fearless; I assume that he would have been Princess Elena's father. In actual history, he had a daughter named Emma who married Ethelred the Unready (and Canute of Denmark after Ethelred's deposition and death), and was the mother of Edward the Confessor (the King of England at the time of Canmore's overthrow of Macbeth - and who got a brief mention in Shakespeare's "Macbeth", particularly the bit about his touch curing the King's Evil). If Richard the Fearless was indeed Elena's father in the Gargoyles Universe as well as Emma's, then that would make Princess Katharine and Edward the Confessor cousins, which I find both interesting and amusing.

2. Also, the Normans were of Viking descent, as you no doubt know (Frenchified Vikings who settled in northern France in the year 911), which would mean, since Princess Katharine was of Norman descent on her mother's side, that she was ultimately part-Viking (although I certainly doubt that either she or Hakon ever suspected that :). An amusing irony, to me at least.

Greg responds...

1. Very cool. Let's say yes. (E-mail me that stuff please.)

2. My daughter, my sister, my daughter, my sister....

And we thought Hakon and Wolf being related was odd.

Response recorded on November 16, 2000

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VOWS memo

Saw "VOWS" last night with the family. I'll ramble on that one shortly, but here's the memo from November '94. Shari Goodhartz wrote the outline, which Michael Reaves edited. Shari's entire story was more or less set at the Eyrie Building. It was about Demona and Xanatos using the wedding to get half of a magical talisman from Goliath. Goliath prevents them from using this macguffin, but realizes once and for all that he and Demona are over.

As I noted below, it seemed like that wasn't enough. So I took ALL of Shari's story and CRUSHED it into Act One. Then I came up with the Time Travel story that was the heart of VOWS. All of Acts Two and Three as presented in the memo below are my work. But I think Shari and Michael did a great job of executing it in this jam-packed episode.

One little tidbit. Petros was my original name for Xanatos' father. (I went to college with a guy named Petros.) But Shari and/or Michael named the dad "Stefan", which I went with here. At the recording session, Marina Sirtis pointed out that the name didn't work for some reason that I can no longer recall. (Aris, any thoughts?) So I jumped in and rechristened him Petros. Later we realized that both Elisa and David had fathers who had been named variations on Peter. To me, that was a very cool thing.

WEISMAN 11-25-94

Notes on "Vows" Outline...

GENERAL
Basically, it still didn't seem like we had enough story. So I compressed what was here and tried to extrapolate forward to fill out acts 2 and 3.

THE TALISMAN
I'm calling it the PHOENIX GATE. It can be used as a gateway to anywhere and anywhen. (The Gate will, I believe, eventually give us our Battle of Britain Story. And give the Archmage a powerful weapon for reaching and conquering Avalon.) By combining the two halves of the Phoenix Gate and invoking the Latin translation of the phrase: "Burn down the walls of time and space!", the gate opens in flame and sucks up anyone in the immediate vicinity, transporting them to the place and time chosen by the invoker. But choosing requires incredible concentration. Otherwise, the chooser's emotional or mental whim of the moment may cause the gate to drop everyone off at Burger King instead of Fort Knox.

TIME TRAVEL
So we're going to do a time travel story. Which means we need to establish traveling rules for our series. I'm going with the most conservative, most restrictive rules possible, because more than any other type of fantasy or science fiction convention, time travel is really subject to logic abuse. So...

Whatever's happened in the past has already happened, including the actions of our time travelers. Recorded history may be incomplete or incorrect, but true history cannot be changed. When Demona and Goliath go back in time to meet the young Demona, both of the older gargoyles are seeking to change or influence the young Demona's history. But this meeting already took place. The older Demona remembers it. (Maybe not every precise detail, and maybe she didn't fully understand the event at the time, but she does remember it.) Whatever influence the modern gargoyles had on her has already been figured into the events that followed, many of which have already been depicted in other episodes. (Sadly, in this case, neither Goliath or Demona had any real sustained influence on the younger Demona at all. That's the tragic flaw of both Demonas. They just never learn.)

WHERE AND WHEN ARE WE GOING?
Castle Wyvern. 975 A.D. The castle is ruled by the 21 year old Prince Malcolm of Wyvern. Malcolm's chief advisors are the 35 year old Captain of the Guard [NOTE: per my recent work on the timeline, the Captain was 29 years old in 975.]; the Archmage (nine years younger than when he appeared in "Long Way to Morning"), and Hudson who is biologically 49. Young warriors, Goliath and Demona are both biologically 19, (in "Long Way..." they were more like 23). If you have space for them, Brooklyn, Lexington and Broadway are all biologically nine. Bronx hasn't hatched yet. In contrast, our modern Goliath is biologically 29 years old and Hudson's 59.

VOWS
That's the theme. Vows. When you keep them. When you can't. Why you do or don't. Don't hesitate to play it up.

STEFAN
In thinking about it, I think Stefan Xanatos should be a naturalized American Citizen living in a north eastern fishing community. Maybe somewhere in Maine. He's still Greek, but he emigrated before David was born. That way, David Xanatos could have been born and raised to pursue (and pervert) the American Dream.

BEAT OUTLINE
ACT ONE
1. Night by some landmark, (maybe the Goldencup Bakery Building or the Cyberbiotics Tower). DAVID XANATOS (in armor) and GOLIATH fight. No stolen Cyberbiotics devices. I really don't want to sweat this scene too much. There are a hundred ways that this could have begun, and in the interest of getting to our main story quicker, I don't want to spend a lot of time "prologing" our prologue. But for the sake of consistency, I'll posit the following: Xanatos left a vaguely menacing message for Goliath with ELISA, whom he can reach easily enough at the precinct house. (The location of the rendezvous itself may have suggested bad news.) Goliath, prepared for a trap but not about to hide from danger, went to the stated rendezvous and, expecting the worse, waded into battle before Xanatos could get a word in edgewise. Well, Xanatos is always up for a little workout, so he fought back with relish, taking his time to reveal the real reason he had asked Goliath to come: He wants Goliath to be best man at his wedding tomorrow night. As a little incentive, he's invited DEMONA, and wrested a promise that she'll be on her best behavior throughout the event. [Reveal as much or as little of the "prologing" as necessary in order to make the scene play.]

2. Clock Tower just before Dawn. HUDSON seems strangely ambivalent, but Elisa and BROOKLYN can't believe Goliath would even consider going to the wedding. They have a hundred reasons each why it's obvious lunacy. Goliath doesn't put up much of a counter-argument. He knows they're right. He won't go. Dawn comes. They all turn to stone. Elisa heads home.

3. Castle during the day. In the courtyard, Xanatos waits for something, still in his armor but with the helmet off. A helicopter lands, piloted by FOX and carrying STEFAN XANATOS, a big, tough, weathered but honest Greek fisherman. Stefan is a little put off by his son's armored attire, but tries at first to make the best of an awkward situation. He is teasingly superstitious about his son seeing Fox on the day of the wedding, but the happy couple make their own luck and patronizingly ignore his concerns, which darkens Stefan's mood. Fox exits to get dressed. David asks his dad, what he thinks of the place. Stefan is frankly appalled by the conspicuous consumption. Why does his son need a place like this? "Oh, reason not the need, father. I wanted it. So I took it." Stefan is disgusted by his son's attitude. Why does he need to wear armor? David assures him, the armor is purely defensive. Defense against what? What kind of life does his son lead? He think David would have been better off being a humble fisherman, like himself: "In fact, if I ever get my hands on the man who sent you that coin, I swear I'll teach him a lesson for meddling with my family." David smiles when his Dad brings up "the coin". That's ancient history, Pop. Besides, that coin was only worth about 20 grand. David's now worth "considerably more". But Dad's not letting him off the hook. If he had never received that coin anonymously, he'd never have become what he is now. "You know, Dad, someday I'm going to prove to you that I really am a self-made man. And that's a promise." Besides, if the castle and the armor upset you, wait until you meet the best man.
On cue, OWEN enters with the JUDGE who is to perform the ceremony. Owen has prepared a little videotape of the gargoyles for Stefan and the Judge to watch. That way, they won't swallow their tongues when they see Goliath and Demona. As they all head inside, Owen questions whether this is necessary, will Goliath really show? He'll be here, Xanatos assures him, "I'd take an oath on it."

4. Back at the clock tower during the day, we push in on the stone Goliath and ripple dissolve to his dream/memory.

5. Castle Wyvern, 975 A.D., night. YOUNG GOLIATH finds YOUNG DEMONA standing on the tower with YOUNGISH HUDSON. Demona seems ridiculously happy to see him. Goliath doesn't want to miss PRINCE MALCOLM'S Wedding. She seems a bit distracted. She looks at Hudson, who says "Go on, then." She and Goliath glide down to one of the upper windows of the Great Hall. From there, they watch this strange human ceremony of bonding, including the exchange of rings. Goliath comments on the beauty of the symbolism or something, and Demona takes out the PHOENIX GATE. She separates the two pieces and hands him one. She swears she will never stop loving him. (If she seems a little too intense, we'll chalk it up at this stage to the emotion of the moment.) Goliath takes his half of the gate, and somewhat awed by her intensity, makes a similar vow. They embrace, stroking each other's hair. (The Gargoyle equivalent of kissing.)

6. Dissolve back out to the Clock Tower at Dusk. Goliath and the others explode awake. Goliath goes to a secret hiding place in the clock tower. (Behind the comatose, COLDSTONE, perhaps.) We see the GRIMORUM and the EYE OF ODIN, as well as Goliath's half of the Gate. (He had hidden it a thousand years ago in a hollow brick at the castle, which Xanatos had transported to NYC unaware of its contents. Goliath had retrieved it before moving to the Clock Tower.) He clutches the gate-piece in his huge hand and leaves, never giving the other gargoyles a chance to talk him out of what even he must realize is a foolhardy quest. Hudson watches him go.

7. Night at the castle. Xanatos and Owen wait in the courtyard for Goliath. Both are now dressed in tuxedos, and Xanatos is wearing a lapel pin that depicts a pyramid with an eye at its apex radiating light. Owen questions whether he should be wearing the emblem of the ILLUMINATI SOCIETY in public. Xanatos says cryptically that it's a necessary risk. [By the way, I have no idea if this is an Illuminati symbol or not. But it seems to fit.] Goliath arrives. Owen offers him a bow-tie. Goliath is not amused. Xanatos gives him Fox's wedding ring to hold. That's what the best man does, you see. Hold the ring, until the couple exchanges vows.
The three enter the Great Hall. Everyone is there. The judge and Stefan have already seen Demona, but Goliath is even more startling thanks to his imposing size. Fox is wearing a white dress, but something non-traditional and sexy. And Demona broods. Goliath approaches her, clutching the gate-piece tightly in his fist. She does not even want to talk to him. She feels she has to attend this farce because Xanatos insisted, and she needs to keep him as an ally. But she cannot fathom why Xanatos wants Goliath here. Goliath attempts to remind her of the last wedding they attended together, but she is not interested in reminiscing.
The wedding ceremony begins, rather informally at first. Keep it very short. (At some point, the Judge should ask Fox's real name. Fox coldly informs him that "Fox" is legally her real name now.) We get to the exchange of rings. Goliath hands Xanatos one for Fox. Demona hands Fox one for Xanatos. Demona looks across at Goliath and seems to break down. Just as the Judge pronounces David and Fox, HUSBAND AND WIFE, Demona runs from the Hall. Goliath pursues. Xanatos & Fox, exchange glances. "Now the fun really begins." They start to follow the gargoyles. Stefan tries to restrain his son: What are you up to now? You'd interrupt your own wedding to engage in Machiavellian scheming? But Xanatos is in a bit of a hurry. He and Fox head out the door pursued by Stefan. The Judge turns to Owen very confused. Owen says something dry and witty. And then both men follow the rest.
Outside, Goliath catches up with Demona before she can glide away. Does she remember their vows? Is there still a chance for them? He shows her his gate-piece. He's always kept it. She gently removes it from his hand and takes out hers. So has she. She puts the interlocking pieces together to form the PHOENIX GATE. And then... she laughs. Goliath is such a fool. He's fallen right into Xanatos and Demona's sentimental trap. Now she has the Gate. And she intends to use it. And just as the Xanatos clan approaches, she speaks the incantation. A huge bird of fire seems to engulf Goliath, Demona, David, Fox and Stefan Xanatos. The fire consumes itself. Owen and the Judge arrive just in time to see the last spark go out. There is no sign of the wedding party. Owen: "It seems the honeymoon has begun earlier than expected."

8. Wyvern, Scotland, on the cliffside near the forest overlooking Castle Wyvern. (This is where Hudson and Goliath froze the morning of the gargoyle massacre of 994 A.D. Only now, it's 975 A.D. -- the night of Prince Malcolm's wedding.) Our five time travelers materialize out of the flaming gate. Stefan asks "Where are we?" David: "The question isn't where... but when?"

ACT TWO
9. Pick up right where we left off. Demona laughs and launches herself off the cliff. Goliath pursues, leaving the humans behind. Xanatos doesn't waste any time. "Follow me!" He runs back into the forest followed by Fox and a very confused Stefan.

10. Air chase. Demona manages to put some distance between herself and Goliath. She chants the incantation and vanishes into the flaming "Gate", leaving Goliath alone.

11. In the forest, Clan Xanatos comes upon TWO HOODED RIDERS who are being attacked by FOUR ARMED BANDITS on horseback. Although he is unarmed, Xanatos never hesitates, wading right in against the bandits. Xanatos, Fox, the larger of the two riders and even Stefan make short work of the bandits. The bandits are forced to flee without their horses, which Xanatos commandeers for his family. The large rider is grateful but suspicious of these strangers in bizarre garb. Then he notices Xanatos' Illuminati pin and warms up fast, briefly drawing back his cloak, to reveal that he wears the same Illuminati emblem. He tells Xanatos that he is the NORMAN AMBASSADOR. He and his "companion" bring "priceless gifts" to Prince Malcolm of Wyvern. Xanatos may wear strange garb, but he's a great fighter (and a fellow Illuminatus). The Ambassador would be honored if Xanatos' would accompany them the last few miles to Castle Wyvern. He also promises that Prince Malcolm will be very grateful for their help as well.

12. Having lost Demona, Goliath soars closer to the castle, debating with himself whether or not he should land there. Then he spots Demona again from a distance. He circles to intercept her, but as she lands on a castle battlement, she is greeted by a young Goliath. And the adult Goliath realizes that he wasn't tracking his enemy, but her younger counterpart. He comes in for a landing on one of the high towers of the castle, and surreptitiously watches the young lovers below him. It almost tears his heart out. And then he hears Hudson's voice behind him, demanding to know what he's doing up on the tower when he had been assigned to hold watch on the battlement. Adult Goliath turns to see his MENTOR, (the YOUNGER HUDSON). When Hudson gets a good look at him, he immediately sees that something is wrong. And when Hudson sees young Goliath and young Demona, below on the battlement, he's ready to cry sorcery, and Adult Goliath has to slap a hand over his mouth.

13. At the gates of the castle, Xanatos, Stefan, Fox, the Ambassador and the hooded rider are greeted by young Prince Malcolm and the ARCHMAGE. The rider is revealed to be PRINCESS ELENA of Normandy. (I made this name up, and have no idea if it's accurate to tenth century Normandy.) The Ambassador had hoped that by arriving in secret, he and the Princess would avoid just the kind of trouble that Clan Xanatos saved them from. Malcolm is very grateful. He was to marry Elena tomorrow, but because the princess was attacked, he has decided to move up the wedding to this very night. He tells his SERVANTS to prepare the Great Hall. At the Ambassador's prompting, Elena pulls out her father's wedding gift. It is a priceless golden treasure known as the PHOENIX GATE, which she will officially present to the Prince after the ceremony.

14. Meanwhile, with great difficulty, Goliath is trying to convince Hudson that he is not a sorcerous creature, but a visitor from the future. (He does not choose to reveal how far in the future.) Goliath is a bit flustered himself: he doesn't know how much to reveal, and he has to remind himself not to use anachronistic names like Hudson and Demona. He manages to babble out the fact that sometime in the future, he attended the wedding of an enemy and that he and his... enemies were sent back in time by some kind of sorcery. He is particularly concerned for the younger versions of himself and Demona. He needs his MENTOR's help. (This conversation will explain the older Hudson's ambivalence in Scene 2. He remembered meeting the adult Goliath after the latter had attended the wedding of an enemy.) Hudson isn't sure what to believe, but he looks deeply into adult Goliath's eyes and decides to trust him.

15. The Archmage returns to his laboratory. He is furious. At first we think he's ranting to himself, but then we realize he's talking to his apprentice, who cowers a bit in the shadows. It turns out that the Archmage hired the bandits to steal the Phoenix Gate from the Normans. To Malcolm, it is just a gaudy bauble, but to him it is the second talisman of power that he needs. (He has the Grimorum. Doesn't yet have the Eye of Odin.) With it he can transverse space and time in a thought. He needs his apprentice to steal it from the Princess before the wedding. Hesitantly, the apprentice steps forward out of the shadows. It is the young Demona.

16. Fox and Stefan watch as Xanatos hands the Ambassador a letter, and returns to face his father. He tells him that the letter contains instructions for the Illuminati society and two sealed envelopes. The Society is to wait 1000 years and then deliver the first envelope to a young David Xanatos of Bar Harbor, Maine. The envelope contains a small coin, a minor reward requested of the Prince for saving the Princess. The coin is practically worthless in 975, but by 1975 it will be worth about 20 grand. The second envelope is to be delivered twenty years after the first. It contains a detailed account of how the coin was obtained. That's how Xanatos knew how to set all this up. He had received instructions from himself last week. "So you see, Pop. I am indeed a self-made man." Fox beams with pride. Stefan is quiet for a beat. Then asks: "All right, Mr. Big Shot Time Traveler. You sent yourself your little letter before you answered one important question: How do we get home?"

17. Young Demona sneaks into the Princess' room through a window and grabs the Phoenix Gate, while Elena's back is turned. She leaves by the same window, but she doesn't get very far. Suddenly, her older counterpart appears before her in a fiery flash of Phoenix flame.

ACT THREE
18. Up on the tower, the burst of Phoenix flame attracts the attention of Goliath, Hudson -- and Young Goliath down on the battlement! Adult Goliath knows the flame signals the arrival of his... enemy. But his younger counterpart MUST NOT investigate. Hudson agrees to waylay young Goliath. Adult Goliath takes off in the direction of the fading flame.

19. Meanwhile, the older Demona confronts her younger self. Both hold a complete version of the Phoenix Gate. (Don't you just love time travel stories?) Anyway, the younger Demona is obviously stunned by what she sees. The older one is right to business. She knows for a fact that her arrival is about to attract some unwanted attention. They need to go somewhere private to talk! She invokes the Latin spell and her gate opens into fire that sucks in both Demonas. At the last possible second, Adult Goliath flies into the fiery gate, and all three vanish.

20. Castle Wyvern. The highest tower. 994 A.D. A few nights after the Massacre. The 994 counterpart of Goliath is frozen in stone (in Thinker pose) at night! Small fires still burn. Fragments of other gargoyles litter the ground. On the cut, the Phoenix Gate deposits Young Demona, Adult Demona and Adult Goliath a few yards above the tower. The Demona's drop down gently enough, but Goliath's momentum from scene 19 sends him crashing into the stone floor of the tower. Adult Demona seems ready for this as well. Before Goliath can recover, she slams him across the back with all her might, plus both fists and the anger of 1000 years. He is knocked unconscious.
And then her real work begins. Young Demona is still in a state of semi-shock. Adult Demona wastes no time. Yes, she is her older self returned from the future with a warning. See the destruction. The death. Goliath frozen in stone at night! Humans did this! And you can stop it! You have the Phoenix Gate. All you have to do is think of a place and time. Hold it in your mind, and by speaking the incantation you are there. With its power you can accomplish anything. Do not give it away to the Archmage. Do not share it with... Do not share it! USE IT!! Destroy all the humans! Rule the Gargoyles! Rule the world!! It's all within your grasp!!!
Goliath starts to come to. Young Demona rushes to his side. Adult Demona intercepts her. "Believe me, I know exactly how you feel." But you cannot trust Goliath. He is weak. He cares more about the humans than the gargoyle clan! The greatest favor you can do him would be to put him out of our misery. (And here is where our Demona has made her big mistake. A mistake made despite the power of hindsight. Because Demona never learns. And because at this time, the younger Demona loves Goliath with all her heart.) Adult Demona: "You must know I'm right! Can't you see I am what you will become?!" And young Demona, still largely innocent and good, snaps: "I will never become like you!" Young Demona attacks adult Demona! Fight scene. Frankly, Young Demona wouldn't be a match for adult Demona, except that the latter is a bit reluctant to trash "herself". Still, it's for her own good.
Goliath regains consciousness and joins the battle. The tide turns and Adult Demona is knocked out this time. Goliath takes her version of the Phoenix Gate from her. Young Demona is pretty near shattered by this whole experience! She turns to Goliath, pleadingly. What should she do?
Goliath is reluctant to use Adult Demona's methods. But he also wants to undo some of the damage the Adult Demona did. Young Demona is touching the frozen version of Goliath. Our Goliath approaches her. Tells her not to worry about this. Not to fear it or look for it. It is not the big catastrophes that must concern her. It is the little slights. The little jealousies and angers that prey upon the heart. Fortify yourself with love and trust, and you need not fear this future.
Goliath looks at Adult Demona. He holds up her Gate. He's not sure he knows how to use it. The younger one lifts her version. She knows how. She speaks the words and the three of them disappear in flames.

21. They reappear in flame on the same tower in 975. Xanatos, Fox and Stefan are there. (The highest point on the castle was the logical place to watch for the Phoenix flames.) Goliath would be tempted to leave Xanatos behind if he wasn't afraid of the damage the guy could do to the future. Goliath says good-bye to young Demona. By now, he's figured out how the gate works. Young Demona steps back out of range. With some hesitancy, Goliath speaks the Latin and our five time travelers disappear.
Young Demona is left alone. She still has her version of the Phoenix Gate, which she holds tightly behind her back. The Archmage comes running up the stairs, clutching the Grimorum. He had seen the Phoenix fire and jumps to the conclusion that young Demona let somebody else get away with the Gate. Before she can reveal that she still has her Gate, he punishes her with a bolt of lightning, and threatens to tell the Prince that she stole the Gate. Hudson glides in, landing between Demona and the Archmage. Hudson wonders why the Archmage would expect Demona to have the Prince's wedding present? If Demona did steal it, who would she be stealing it for? The Archmage takes the hint, begrudgingly. But he won't forget this. He heads back downstairs, grumbling: Those strangely dressed strangers have disappeared. The theft of the Gate can be blamed on them. Obviously, Young Demona never reveals that she still has the Gate.
Young Goliath glides in and in a repeat of the first half of scene 5, Demona seems ridiculously happy to see him. Goliath doesn't want to miss Prince Malcolm's Wedding. Demona seems a bit distracted. She looks at Hudson, who says "Go on, then." She and Goliath glide down to one of the upper windows of the Great Hall.

22. Xanatos' Castle in Manhattan, 1995. A repeat of the end of scene 7: Owen and the Judge arrive on the scene just in time to see the last spark go out. There is no sign of the wedding party. Owen: "It seems the honeymoon has begun earlier than expected."
Our five time travelers reappear. Demona is recovering. Goliath may have defeated her, but he failed too. Demona remembers his little speech from when she was young. She never forgot it. And it didn't change anything. "More's the pity," he says. And he glides off with the Gate.
In excellent spirits, Xanatos approaches his father. "Did you have a good time at the wedding?" Xanatos Senior takes a penny from his pocket and flips it to Xanatos Junior. David catches it and asks, what's this? Stefan says, "It's called a penny. It's not worth much now, but in a 1000 years, who knows. It's my wedding present to you. Because it's all you seem to care about." Stefan turns his back on his son, and walks away.

23. Goliath arrives back at the Clock Tower. Elisa and Brooklyn are there, ready to blast him for going to the wedding. But Hudson takes one look at Goliath and stops them. Goliath puts the Phoenix Gate back in its hiding place with the Grimorum and the Eye. When he turns to face us, there's a single tear rolling down his cheek. Push in on him and ripple dissolve...

24. Castle Wyvern, 975 A.D., night. M.O.S., Young Demona separates the two pieces of the Phoenix Gate and hands one to Young Goliath. They embrace, stroking each other's hair. FADE OUT.


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matt writes...

you said that when the wyvern clan got too big it split up to form two clans. would this happen in 'Dark Ages
' or before that?

Greg responds...

In DARK AGES, but not until years into the series.

Response recorded on November 13, 2000

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Yttrium writes...

You've mentioned that Bronx wouldn't be hatched when DARK AGES began. Would he have been hatched later down the line in the series?

---Ytt

Greg responds...

Yes. If we lasted long enough. Dark Ages starts in 971. Bronx hatches in 978. But in my dreams, we'd run the Dark Ages series for 23 years... from 971 to 994.

Response recorded on November 10, 2000

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Yttrium writes...

DARK AGES q's:

1) Who was the leader before Hudson? Would we see him/her in DARK AGES?
2) Do you intend to have characters that would look like they could be the parents of the trio? (I'm such a human, I know, but biological parentage is a curiosity of mine.)
3) Would Bronx be in it? I love Bronxy.
4) Would Malcolm's brother Kenneth and nephew Chalvim play any role in it?
5) Would Constantine?
---Ytt

Greg responds...

1. No. Hudson was already leader by the time Dark Ages begins.

2. Maybe.

3. Not initially. He wouldn't have hatched yet. Other beasts though.

4. Yes.

5. Yes.

Response recorded on November 09, 2000

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John writes...

Hi Greg,
Now I got you :)! In "City of stone" we see, that Demona is the leader of a little clan, that is robbing scotland. The first time I saw the ep, there was nothing strange on it. But then, I saw something verry, verry weird: One of the Gargoyles is 100% identical with one of the Avalon clan (Its the gargoyle with the brestplate. In "C.o.s." he is arguing with Demona, and in "Avalon, pt.2" he sits in the castle). That he lives on Avalon must mean, that his father is from the Wyvern clan and, so we all thought, is dead. But in "C.o.S." we could see his father alive. So he must be a survivor of the Wyvern massakre...
Well, maybe you could bring some light in that.
CU, John

Greg responds...

No. You're forgetting that a few years before the massacre, Wyvern's Gargoyle population was larger than the location could sustain (or than the humans of the castle would tolerate). Many of those gargoyles left Wyvern to form a new clan, that ultimately didn't fair much better than Wyvern did.

Response recorded on November 09, 2000

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Sothis writes...

Dear Mr Weisman,

Regarding Timedancer and The Dark Ages, given the time, would you plan to turn both of those into animated shows, or do you feel they are best left as part of the written world?

Greg responds...

Given the opportunity, I'd gladly do either as animated series.

Response recorded on October 20, 2000

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Man Mountain writes...

Hi Greg, I know you dont like quantifying things, but let me ask you this. As far as the modern Gargates are concerned, were there ever hundreds of clans? Thousands? Millions? And if so, when? Just asking for a ballpark figure, nothing exact or binding. Thanks!

Greg responds...

Hundreds, sure, maybe even thousands. But long ago -- pre-Dark Ages.

Response recorded on October 20, 2000

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Ithica writes...

A follow-up to my previous set of questions---

1. In Dark Ages, would there be any gargoyle beasts playing large roles? Playing any roles at all?

2. Who would be the ruler at the time--- Malcolm, Katherine, or neither one? I'm putting my money on Malcolm, though.

Greg responds...

1. Yes.

2. Malcolm once the war is won.

Response recorded on October 20, 2000

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Ithica writes...

Dark Ages:

1. Do you have many characters thought out for Dark Ages? You've mentioned, lessee, Hudson in the lead, Goliath, Hudson's mate, Demona, Othello, Desdemona, and Iago, as main chracters, and the trio as supporting characters. Any others you care to devulge?

2. Would Bronx have been hatched yet?

3. I imagine Hudson would be more in his prime, and those of Goliath's generation young adults. Would those of the trio's age be hatchlings?

4. What would you refer to the characters by, seeing as gargoyles don't use names? Ex, would Hudson be 'Leader' or 'Mentor' in this context?

5a. Do you plan on creating gargs that would appear as if they were the trio's biological parents?

5b. You've told us in the past that Hudson is Broadway's father, and I for one can see a few common physical traits. Would Hudson's mate, if she appears in Dark Ages, bear any resemblance to Broadway?

6. Would Broadway's sister Hippolyta appear in Dark Ages?

Thank you, Greg.

Greg responds...

1. Hippolyta. Malcolm. Robbie. Archmage.

2. Not at the beginning.

3. Kids.

4. I admit I have not as yet fully decided this question.

5a. Not specifically. I'm not as interested in biological parentage as many of you seem to be. But it might happen in a more incidental fashion.

5b. Some bit.

6. Yes. But it's pretty much a mistake to refer to her as his sister. His sisters from his point of view are the rookery sisters that are part of his generation. His biological connection to Hippolyta is unimportant.

Response recorded on October 20, 2000

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Kayless writes...

Happy Rosh Hashanah!
1. A Wyvern is a mythical beast, akin to a dragon. So how come Wyvern Hill is named such? Did a battle with a wyvern occur here, or does one sleep in the caves under the ground? Or something else entirely?

Greg responds...

Not saying. But there's a hint in the Dark Ages pitch which you can see at any Gathering -- like next year's in Los Angeles.

Response recorded on October 19, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

Which family did Princess Elena come from prior to her marriage to Prince Malcolm? In "Vows", her escort is described as "the Norman ambassador", which would suggest that she came from the ducal house of Normandy; on the other hand, Normandy was a dukedom rather than a kingdom, which makes me uncertain that a member of its Duke's family would have had the title of "Princess" prior to marrying Prince Malcolm. Which family did you see Elena coming from?

Greg responds...

From Normandy. The Norman's may have oversold Elena's title to help "sell" her to Malcolm. (Calling Malcolm a prince, by the way, is equally questionable now that his half-BROTHER is the king.)

Response recorded on September 25, 2000

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Punchinello writes...

As long as I'm up and asking questions...

Do the Gargoyles have an architecture that is particular to their culture?

I realize that question may appear to be a bit odd. I'm also sure that no one else would possibly care, but I am preoccupied with architectural ideas.

I know that we never observed any of them manufacturing barrel vaults or drawing plans, but we do knowt hat their culture contained it's own artifacts. They wore clothing. Occasionally we would see a strange shoulder gaurd or some piece of jewlery. Who made them?

I am entertaining images gargoyles who were the blacksmiths of their clan, forging swords and mace. Might the wyvern clan have contained a master builder who constructed catapults? Maybe who aided in designing the castle, lending a gargoyles more sophisticated sensibility for defense to the design of it's walls?

Did the clan have it's own artists? Musicians? Mathematicians? astronomers?

I'd be perfectly satisfied with an answer to the architect part.

Punchinello

Greg responds...

Lex demonstrates that Gargoyles can have special talents. But I don't see architecture as a major function of anyone in the Wyvern Clan. However, that doesn't mean Hudson might not have made some common sense suggestions, when the castle was being designed.

Response recorded on September 25, 2000

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Ed writes...

In 1057, how many other gargoyles clans were around?

Greg responds...

Around where?

Response recorded on September 21, 2000

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Ed writes...

I know you hate quantifying, so I'm trying to word this question in a way that avoids that. Basically, was the death toll for gargoyles in Wyvern (between 974 and 994 I guess), very big? I mean, we know that Hudson's mate died but would she be an exception or one of quite a few? In "DARK AGES" terms would any (many?) main characters die?

(Obviously, not including everybody that died in the Massacre in the above question.)

Greg responds...

A few. Not hordes. That would undercut the massacre.

Response recorded on September 21, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

Oh, and you mentioned that one of the antagonists in "Dark Ages" was to be Constantine's father, but you'd forgotten his name. I've read up quite a bit on that period of Scottish history recently (thanks to "Gargoyles", of course), and discovered that his father's name was Culen - and that apparently this is the same Culen who appears in your "Once Upon A Time There Were Three Brothers" story, as the enemy of Kenneth II and Prince Malcolm.

Greg responds...

Exactly. Like I said, I just blanked out on the name.

Response recorded on September 21, 2000

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Phil writes...

In a recent response you said it was "very disconcerting" that Goliath had been named by 984 in "Long Way to Morning."

However, in a response on 02-02-2000 you said that Prince Malcom named him about 971 AD.

Hopefully that makes you feel less disconcerted.

(I also hope that you're encouraged to know that at least one person reads the archives.)

Greg responds...

Yeah. Thanks.

Did I say that definitively? Cause in my head, I hadn't decided that yet. Hmmm....

Response recorded on September 16, 2000

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Anonymous writes...

Who would be the villains for Dark Ages besides the Archmage?

Greg responds...

Iago, for one.

Constantine's father (I'm blanking on his name right now).

The Illuminati.

And others...

Response recorded on September 16, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

In "Possession", Iago cries at one point, "By the Dragon!" (And I've seen you use similar invocations of "the Dragon" here at least once, for that matter). Just out of curiosity, what is the "Dragon"? (I'm assuming that it has some religious significance for the Wyvern clan, judging from its context, but I won't dare hypothesize anything more than that - particularly on account of the rules).

Greg responds...

I never said it was religious.

Response recorded on September 16, 2000

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dj writes...

In the original wyvern clan didd you knoww who lex's mother would be

Greg responds...

Lex had a lot of mothers. Quit thinking like a human.

Response recorded on September 16, 2000

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Nyrtleka writes...

You said that Broadway has a sibling, presumably a sister, named Hyppolyta. Where is she currently--- on Avalon? Was she slaughtered at the Wyvern massacre?

Greg responds...

She's dead. I'm not saying more than that now.

Response recorded on September 14, 2000

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Justin writes...

Dear Greg Here's another set of questions for you.
1a)How did Demona find those five gargs in City of Stone?
1b)Were the a few clans in Scotland?
2a)Did have a rookery?
2b)Did Demona contribute?
3a)Why did Demona treat her clan more like an army ten family?
3b)Why did Demona do nothing to stop the princess,magus and Tom when they took the clan's eggs?
Thanks

Greg responds...

1a. She searched around. And there were more than five. But they lived in "cells" so that the Hunter couldn't stumble on any one location and destroy them all.

b. I know there's a typo in there, but I still am not sure what this question is.

2a. Demona's clan? Probably they had one when they needed one.

2b. No.

3a. Why do YOU think?

3b. Paralyzing guilt.

Response recorded on September 14, 2000

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Jackal's Love writes...

G'day Greg

Would any of the spinoffs featured the Pack (or at least members of the Pack) as villains?

Thank you for your time.

Greg responds...

Sure. Most. Let's see...

Gargoyles
Bad Guys
Gargoyles 2158 (revised)

for sure...

And I wouldn't be surprised if we also saw them in

Pendragon
New Olympians
TimeDancer

But I would be surprised if they showed up in

Dark Ages

Response recorded on September 14, 2000

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Aris Katsaris writes...

Would we have seen Hyppolyta on any series other than Dark Ages?

How did she get her name? Was she aware that she had a name (like Goliath) or unaware of it (Othello, Desdemona etc)?

Greg responds...

Possibly TimeDancer. Flashbacks in GARGOYLES, maybe.

That's a decision, I'm still mulling over, frankly. Did anyone notice that Goliath was already named by 984 in "Long Way To Morning"? I didn't, until a recent reviewing revealed it. Very disconcerting.

Response recorded on September 09, 2000

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Aris Katsaris writes...

You said that Hudson had two biological children and would have had a third if his mate hadn't been killed. Does that mean he mated after he was biologically 25? Because if not, they could have had conceived eggs in 928 (Goliath's generation), 948 (Broadway) and 968 (Bronx's generation) since his mate was killed in 971 as you've told us.

So, was it a miscalculation on your part, or did Hudson first mate late in life?

And does Hyppolyta belong to Goliath's or to Bronx's generation?

Greg responds...

Yeah. That was a mistake. A very annoying mistake. His eldest biological child is part of Goliath's generation. (Thus Goliath, Demona, Iago, etc. are all his rookery children.) His second biological child (Broadway) is obviously part of the Trio's generation. (And he's a rookery father to all of them as well.) His third biological child, and there is a third one, hatched in the same generation as Bronx. (And he was a rookery father to all of them as well. Well, all the gargoyles, not the beasts.)

Hyppolyta was part of the generation that included--

Wait a minute. Just cuz I made a mistake, doesn't mean I have to give everything away right now.

Whew. You almost had me.

Response recorded on September 09, 2000

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Vashkoda writes...

A few more Wyvern questions:

1a) Hakon and the captain exhibited several kinds of powers (causing hallucinations, animating the rock-clan, drawing Goliath's life energy). Which of these were their own powers (as "ghosts"), and which did they possess solely by tapping into the magic of the ruins/area? 1b) Is the purpose of the rune temple in the lair solely to draw and transfer life energy? 1c) How did Hakon and the Captain know how to use it? 2) The Captain said that their hatred may have been a factor in why they were trapped down there. Was it specifically hatred, or "unfinished business" that for them, just happened to involve hatred? 3a) Did the Archmage know of the ruins before he joined Malcolm's service? 3b) If so, were the ruins part of the reason he joined?

Greg responds...

1a. The hallucinations were ghost powers. Tapping Goliath's life force was a "power" of the Megalith Dance down below. Animating the rocks was generally a ghost power, but it was slightly more sophisticated, and I think that the location helped them focus and control their power more.

1b. Solely? no.

1c. Time and grokking.

2. Both.

3a. Yes.

3b. Sorta. Not really.

Response recorded on September 09, 2000

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Vashkoda writes...

Wyvern area questions:

1) Do the ancient ruins within/beneath the Archmage's lair have anything to do with that ancient--and now extinct--fourth race of sentient beings on Earth? 2) Did the presence of a gargoyle clan at the cliffs of Wyvern have anything to do with those ruins in the Archmage's lair? 3) When I asked about your answer that the area was "mostly" haunted by Hakon and the captain, you asked "when?". So to specify, who else haunted the area a) in the days the 4th race still roamed the Earth b) the time between their extinction and the appearance of the Wyvern clan on the cliffs c) the time between when the Wyvern clan appeared and when Malcolm constructed a castle on the cliff d) The time between when Malcolm's castle was built and Hakon and the Captain were killed (this includes the period directly after the Wyvern massacre). 4) In "Shadows of the Past", upon looking at the carvings, Angela sees the Archmage attacking a gargoyle. Yet you said that the hieroglyphics in this cave were ancient, so they *couldn't* be of the Archmage himself, right? And Goliath seems to see something different. So are different people *really* seeing different things, or is Goliath hallucinating because of the ghosts, or it a property of the carving itself? 5a) Are the ones who built the ruins beneath the cave, also the ones who built the ruins over which Malcolm built his castle? 5b) Did any of those ruins at the old castle site possess magical properties, like the temple building in the lair? 5c) Were any parts of these ruins directly incorporated into the foundations of Malcolm's new castle? 6a) When the captain explained why they were trapped there, he said "Maybe it was the magic in this place....". Is the magic he's referring to solely a property of the ruins that were constructed there, or is the area itself inherently magical? b) If it's the latter, how far does this magic extend? Outside of the cave? The entire cliff? Miles? c) If it includes the cliff, would this magic still remain in the pieces that were transported to Xanatos's building? d) If the magic of the area helped hold Hakon and the captain's spirits, was it also a factor in why the Coldtrio's spirits were held in suspension and still around to be transferred to Coldstone? e) Hakon and the Captain seemed to be able to animate bits rock to look and act like Goliath's clan. But Goliath's clan was also killed nearby, and their spirits could have animated the rock-clan (except Demona). Just to be clear, was the rock-clan controlled entirely by Hakon and the Captain?

Greg responds...

Vash, it would really make my life easier if you would hit the return key between each question.

1. I'm not saying.

2. Sorta.

3. Does 4th race equate with LSZ's "Zeroth" race or am I just getting confused again? Look let me just sum up by saying that the Captain and Hakon weren't the only ghosts to ever haunt that place.

4. All of the above. And it could be the Archmage, if the carving is prophetic.

5a. Kinda.

b. Not so much.

c. Yes.

6a. Both.

6b. Wyvern.

c. Like radiation? I'm not sure about that. It's the place. A nexus of power. Holy ground.

d. Maybe.

e. Yes. They were attempting to gaslight Goliath.

Response recorded on September 06, 2000

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Duncan Devlin writes...

This question may have been asked before, but I could not find it.

It has been established that the 994 Gargoyles did not have names. On the other hand, they did have various labels.
E.G.

Demona
-Angel of the Night
-Second in command (Tom's words in Avqalon 1)
Hudson
-Old friend (still included)
-leader
-the king called him something in Long Day's Journey to Morning

Goliath
-Goliath

They had a few others that I do not remember.

Meanwhile, just about everyone else had the name 'friend'.

Were you attempting to do anything concerning the more important figures in the Wyvern clan? (Demona, Goliath, Hudson) Or does this just kind of 'happen' because of their standing?

Greg responds...

Designations are all relative to who's talking. Hudson is "Old Friend" to Goliath. He is "Old Soldier" to Demona. Demona is "my angel" to Goliath. But rest assured, Hudson doesn't call her "MY angel".

I am toying with the idea that Prince Malcolm named Hudson and a bunch of his warriors (including, obviously Goliath), but I have not made up my mind yet.

Response recorded on September 06, 2000

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MUSINGS

Had a good time at the Gargoyles Adult Chatroom the other day, and it got me thinking. Someone named VP (or VJ?) made the point that everything I've done after, well, "The Journey" I guess, is fanfiction. At first, I misunderstood him. For example, I thought he was confusing Katana with Sata. But he made it clear, that he meant the quote-unquote Master Plan. My initial reaction was to balk.

But I think he's got a point.

Some of this stuff was completed while I was still on the Disney Payroll in late '95, early '96, but none of it's canon in my mind. Canon, as far as I'm concerned only includes the 66 episodes running from "Awakening, Part One" through "The Journey". The other 12 Goliath Chronicles are debatable. Because the show ISN'T on the air, I think I personally am free NOT to regard them as canon. If and/or when the show does get going again in some shape or form, then a more definitive decision will have to be made at that point about those additional 12 stories.

But putting Goliath Chronicles (and Marvel Comics and Disney Adventures, etc.) aside for the moment, that still leaves us with what to do about things like:

--"Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers..."
--Various ASK GREG and other revelations.
--The Spin-Offs: DARK AGES, GARGOYLES 2158, TIMEDANCER, PENDRAGON, THE NEW OLYMPIANS, BAD GUYS
--My further plans for the GARGOYLES main series itself.

Calling the work I've done on any of the above "fanfic" rankles at first, but that's largely a problem of semantics. It certainly isn't canon. At this point, legally, I have no more connection to the GARGOYLES property than any of you do. Plus, as I've said many times before, I won't be held to any of it. Hell, for all you know everything I've revealed is just one big snow-job to keep you from guessing my real plans. (It's not, but it might have been smarter of me if it was.)

I do think I'm something of an authority on the subject of Gargoyles. And I also think that if the show is ever brought back, the PTB at Disney would be likely (at least given current management) to come to me first to try and revive it. Plus I'm actively working on getting the show revived, again "in some shape or form".

But that doesn't change anything regarding the question of canon.

As many of you know, I've been working on a major revision of 2158. This is taking me longer than I thought, because -- and I shouldn't have been surprised by this, but -- it's effecting the ENTIRE chronology of the series. In addition to changing the year (and thus the title) of GARGOYLES 2158, I've already been forced to go back and make adjustments to both DARK AGES and "Once Upon A Time...Three Brothers". I now know that the last posted chapter of three brothers wound up being the last chapter of that little story period. Because "3Bros" really wound up being just a prologue to DARK AGES. And where "3Bros" leaves off is in fact right at the beginning of where DARK AGES begins.

The 2158 revamp has also necessitated minor changes in TimeDancer. And has clarified my thinking on Pendragon and Bad Guys as well.

[Thankfully, none of it has effected the Clan Contest. We should still be able to put that monster to bed soon.]

All this flux has made it difficult for me to keep certain details clear in my head. For example, at that Friday 9/1/00 chat, I revealed that Hudson had two biological children, Hyppolyta and Broadway. That was an error. Hudson had THREE biological children. (I got my dates mixed up.)

I'm hoping that the work I'm doing now will clean a lot of stuff up. I'm hoping that clarity (and my personal certainty) will return. But this flux isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know I screwed up at least a few times (Garg Universe-wise) within the 66 episodes. I tried to keep those mistakes to a minimum, but they happened. I'd like to avoid making more mistakes, even here at ASK GREG. I definitely feel like I'm getting closer to the "true" Gargoyles Universe, if that's possible and/or makes any sense.

Updates on all this should come over the next ten months. But I'm targeting Gathering 2001 for completion. I'm hoping to be able to make some big announcements there. So bear with me.

But to be fair to VP, he was right. I wouldn't call what I do "fanfiction". For starters, none of it is in the form of fiction. And so calling it that may be giving it TOO MUCH credit. But at the moment, I have no more claim to canon than anyone.

Rather, I'd say that if you like the stories I did come up with on the original 66, and think you might enjoy what I'd do next -- the way you might enjoy what Christine Morgan or Christi Smith Hayden or TGS does next -- than stay tuned. I've got more to tell you and more to reveal by and by.


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Vasy writes...

In long way to morning..i think it is...thone where we first see the archmage...a flashback of hudson's...they are trying to find an antidote to the poison he put on the king///demona, hudson and goliath come across a wall with heiroglyphs...a human killing a gargoyle:
1. what does this mean, is it a saying something of the past or the future
2. who drew the picture
3.is demona involved with this
4. how old is the writing
5.does the archmage know of this
6.does the archmage know of the signifigance of the pictures.

Greg responds...

The Prince, but yeah...
1. Both.
2. Not saying now.
3. Involved? What do you mean?
4. Old.
5. Yes.
6. Yes.

Response recorded on August 23, 2000

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Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...

1. Where did that monolith deep beneath the Archmage's lair in "Shadows of the Past" come from?

2. Did the Archmage know it existed?

3. If #2 is yes, did he create it?

Greg responds...

1. It came from down there.

2. Yes.

3. No.

Response recorded on August 23, 2000

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Sixshot writes...

About the Dark Ages:

What is Kenneth II opinion on the Gargoyles? Does he view them as monsters like most humans, allies or friends just like Robbie and Malcom?

Greg responds...

He has reason to view them as Allies. But he hasn't actually spent much time with them.

Response recorded on August 22, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

After the Wyvern Massacre of 994, Castle Wyvern was apparently left deserted for a thousand years except for Goliath and his clan in their stone sleep upon the battlements. Why was it that the castle was left unoccupied until Xanatos came along in 1994? Did the ghosts of the Captain and Hakon discourage anybody from reclaiming the castle prior to Xanatos, or was it simply ignored?

Greg responds...

Ghosts didn't help. Also, it was a tough site to reclaim.

Response recorded on August 22, 2000

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Anonymous writes...

How did the race that preceded the three races die out?

Greg responds...

Unhappily...

Response recorded on August 21, 2000

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Axem Gold writes...

1) If and when you get to do tose Gargoyle Episodes and Spinoffs do you plan to do crossovers like the following:
Gargoyles: 2158/Timedancer
Dark Ages/Timedancer
Pendragon/Bad Guys

2) Would you still include the Previously On Gargoyles segments when necessary?

Greg responds...

1. 2158(revised) and TimeDancer, definitely.

Dark Ages and TimeDancer, probably.

Pendragon/Bad Guys. Probably, eventually.

Pendragon/Gargoyles. Definitely.

Bad Guys/Gargoyles. Definitely.

New Olympians/Gargoyles. Definitely.

New Olympians/Pendragon/Bad Guys - Eventually.

2. Probably.

Response recorded on August 18, 2000

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Faieq Ali writes...

I asked this before but seems to have gotten lost, so I decided to repost it:
1) What would the relationship between Iago and Demona have been like in the Dark Ages? After all Demona was the Archmages' apprentice, but Iago was allied with him, so would he look down on her? In HIGH NOON, he calls her 'sister', but thats because he doesn't know that it is her fault he is dead and that she is now an enemy of Goliath.
Also would he hate her, in Dark Ages, because she was in love with Goliath and was friends with Desdemona and Othello?
2) Did Goliath etc, learn of Demona's apprenticeship with The Archmage?
3) If the answer to (2) is yes, then how would Goliath react?

Greg responds...

1. Edgy.
2. No.
3. N.A.

Response recorded on July 30, 2000

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Todd Jensen (repost by Aris) writes...

Did you know when you were making "Awakening" that the Magus had that hopeless love for Princess Katharine? I ask this because I felt that that element of his character made it all the more clear why he went utterly berserk against the gargoyles when he thought that she was dead.

Greg responds...

Yes, I knew.

Response recorded on July 26, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

Did Iago ever have a mate in the 10th century?

Greg responds...

No.

Or at any rate, not that I know of right now.

Response recorded on July 10, 2000

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Faieq Ali writes...

Tell me if I'm wrong, but in Castle Wyvern (994), were there only four generations in the Clan?
The oldest - Hudson
The middle - Goliath, Demona, Iago, Desdemona and Othello
The yougest - Brooklyn, Lexington and Broadway
The rookery - The eggs (Angela, Gabriel etc)
Of course there were other gargoyles in each generation but I don't know their names (none of them have any names anyway, except Goliath, in 994.)
But, anyway, were there any other generations in the clan like an older one or one in between the eggs and the Trio's generation.
Each generation should have a ten year age gap(biologically).
The Trio are 18 (biologically) in 994
Goliath is 28 (biologically) in 994
Hudson is around 50 (biologically) in 994
So shouldn't there be a generation between Goliath and Hudson, and a generation between Brooklyn and Gabriel?

Greg responds...

You're wrong. I don't have my timeline with me, but there's AT LEAST two generations between Hudson and Goliath. (Hudson wasn't fifty in 994.)

And you've forgotten Bronx's generation, between Brooklyn and Gabriel.

You've forgotten. I never did.

Response recorded on July 10, 2000

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Vashkoda writes...

Hi Greg. Here are some questions about the Wyvern (Scotland) area: 1) You mentioned before that the area was huanted "monstly" by Hakon and the Captain. Who else haunted it? 2a) Who constructed the rune-covered temple-ish structure in the Archmage's cave? 2b) If you don't want to be specific, were they human? 2c) Do the ruins in this area have anything to do with the name "Wyvern"? 3) By our scores in the contest, I think it's pretty much a given that Wyvern will be a location for a future clan. Will these ruins be a significant reason for a new clan starting up here?

Greg responds...

1. When?

2a. Not saying now.

2b. I don't want to be specific at this time.

2c. The ruins? Sort of.

3. I refuse to confirm the basic hypothesis of this question until after the contest has been won. (Which is probably gonna take years at this rate.)

Response recorded on July 07, 2000

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LSZ writes...

Technology:
1) How long did it take for the New Olympians to develop their technology to the level seen in New Olympians?
2) In any respects are any of the three races involved in the Space-Spawn war less advanced than what we've seen of Earthly technology? Meaning is there anything in particular technologically Earth has that the aliens don't have? Like say, Sevarius' genetic manipulation, the NO's anti-gravity, Xanatos' Matrix..
3) How advanced were Gargoyles technologically by the time humanity came along? Stone Age-tech?
4) Castle Wyvern is a large stone-built fortress that looks like it was built using construction techniques and concepts that didn't appear in Europe until after the Crusades(I think). So why, in the Gargoyles universe, are the Europeans of 994 more advanced than in history? What in-universe explanation is there?
5) King Arthur of the 6th century seems to wear at least partial plate armour that didn't appear until the 1400's? what's the in-universe explanation here?

Greg responds...

1. Until 1996.

2. Generally, they are more advanced than us. But I won't rule out the possiblility that we might not be able to surprise them.

3. Not very. It was unnecessary to their life-styles. Humans are a much more adaptable race, for better and for worse.

4. In universe, I don't need an explanation if I don't feel like dealing. They just are. Perhaps less was forgotten. Perhaps magic was involved. Perhaps our knowledge is flawed.

5. He had access to sources of Armor that most people didn't. We assume that these things didn't EXIST until later. All we KNOW is that they weren't prevalent until later.

Response recorded on July 07, 2000

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Chapter XVI: "Legion"

Story Editor: Michael Reaves
Written by Marty Isenberg & Robert N. Skir

I just watched "Legion" again. Time to Ramble.

From the memo I posted earlier this week, you'll see that the never used on screen names of Othello, Desdemona and Iago were my idea. But I've always wondered if that's the case. The outline that Marty and Bob wrote immediately prior to that memo had all the Othello elements very, very present in the story. All they didn't do was NAME the characters. I always wondered whether they and/or Michael had the Othello story specifically in mind, consciously or un-, and I just capitalized on it.

The Goldencup Bakery Building, which semi-secretly houses a defense department hi-tech research and development installation is modeled after the Silver Cup Bakery Building -- which actually exists in Brooklyn (as I recall). That Building was trashed in the original HIGHLANDER movie in the final battle between Connor and the Kragen (who was played by a pretty damned horrific Clancy Brown). Small world.

I was always worried that the whole Othello, Desdemona, Iago, Cassio (whoops, I mean Goliath) backstory was a bit vague in this episode. Did anyone have problems getting it?

I don't think I'd like to be one of those Goldencup Guards. Coldstone punches one of them out. That's gotta hoit. He just seems fairly unstoppable in that Xanatos-program controlled sequence. I like how that plays.

Matt says to Elisa: "You never let me drive." My wife's reaction: "Was that in homage to me?" My wife, you see, almost always drives when we're together. She gets carsick when anyone else drives. And I don't much care.

Speaking of Matt, we've got that line about him spending six months reading RECAP manuals to justify why a normal detective would be in charge of RECAP in the first place. Just trying to avoid either adding a superfluous character and/or making the situation seem artificial.

Another appearance of the Scarab Corp. Logo, even though Scarab is never mentioned by name. Oh, well...

Coldstone flees the Goldencup. Goliath and Lex pursue, and Coldstone attacks them. Then he immediately stops, when he sees it's Goliath. The problem I always had with that scene is that the lighting made it obvious that it was Goliath from moment one. (Not just to us, but to Coldstone.) If Goliath had been in shadows, it would have played better.

Minutes later Lex asks Goliath if it's wise to take Coldstone into their home: "He hasn't always been your friend." This was, theoretically, a reference not simply to the most recent attack, nor even only to the events of "Reawakening", but also a reference to the pre-Massacre backstory of the actually non-existent love triangle (or square or pentagram if you include Demona) that caused Goliath and Othello to fight way back when. Lex remembers those days too. Othello was always a bit of a hot-head.

I love Goliath's response: "Without trust there can be no clan." And I love that this is part of a Lex/Goliath exchange. It fits in perfectly with the message they taught each other in "Thrill of the Hunt". Gotta take some chances on occasion. Or else you'll always be alone. It's an anti-Demona mentality. Or rather a mentality that is strikingly un-Demona-esque.

From the moment Coldstone premiered in "Reawakening" I knew (that if we survived to a second season) we'd discover that he was created from three Gargoyles. Tried to work that conceptually into the design more, but we never quite achieved it. So basically that becomes something that the audience has to take on trust.

Which brings me to the title "Legion". It's a one-word title which usually is a tip-off that it's one of mine. I know it's a biblical reference. Some possessed guy with a demon/devil inside who goes by the name "Legion". But that's not actually where I got it. When I was a kid, I saw this tv movie based on Mary Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN. It starred Michael Sarazan or Chris Sarandon. (I always used to mix those two guys up.) It was trying to present a more realistic believable version of the Frankenstein story. I was pretty young. And I don't remember too much about it. I do remember that I was supposed to be asleep -- past my bedtime in the days before my parents gave up and I began going to bed long after they were asleep. But instead of being asleep, I was watching it, in the dark, with the volume turned as far down as possible, me sitting right by the set, so I could flip it off if I heard my parents' door opening. (This was long before remote controls were common.) Anyway, the one scene that I really remember is a scene where they put the Monster under hypnosis. The voices of all the people who "donated" body parts begin to speak. And one of them quotes the "Legion" thing from the bible. But I didn't know that. That is I didn't know back then that he was quoting anyone or anything. It just seemed like a very powerful, poetic and humanly true statement. So it wasn't until college that I read that passage in the bible and realized where it was from. Can anyone cite the actual quote? I can't remember where exactly it's from, and I don't feel like searching right now.

Anyway, all this is relevant because Coldstone was ALWAYS our Frankenstein character from the "IT'S ALIVE!" moment to the "Legion" stuff here.

Coldstone calls Hudson "Mentor". That's a "name" I've been long considering for Hudson's "designation" in the DARK AGES prequel spin-off.

Coldstone shoots Goliath at point blank range. Goliath gets up unharmed. A far cry from what happened to G in "Long Way to Morning." Now in the outline and script, it says that Coldstone uses his "concussion cannon" as opposed to his laser cannon. But nothing in the as-aired episode makes that distinction. And so it just looks irresponsible to me. Like suddenly we're saying violence has no repercussions. Did that bother anyone else?

I love the dark comedy of Coldstone going bonkers at Ellis Island. Fighting with himself. I think Michael Dorn did a terrific job playing all four aspects of CS's personality. Which of you figured out what when? I'd like to know.

The Trio has the Recap visor. Now all they have to do is find Goliath, Hudson and Coldstone. How will they do that? "Three guesses?" A very elegant way to explain how in a huge city, they're able to locate three gargoyles.

Kenner's Coldstone toy is a lot of fun. With it's window into Coldstone's soul. And the spinner that allows any of the four personas to take over at random.

Xanatos doesn't even appear until the VERY END of Act Two. And it's not even really Xanatos, just a program designed by him. Normally, I'd say that wasn't playing fair. But I feel like his presence was obvious all-along. (And did David personally design that program. Or did he just put his stamp on it, management-style?)

There's a moment when Goliath, thrilled to see his rookery sister again, hugs Desdemona. She is immediately annoyed, because she knows that hug is prone to misinterpretation. It's a nice little touch in the animation.

I always wondered what if anything Demona thought about that ancient conflict way back when. Was Iago playing her as well? Trying to make her jealous of Desdemona? I think maybe he did try. But wouldn't it be cool if she didn't credit it for a second. If she just knew intuitively that Desdemona didn't present any threat at all to her relationship with G? Because, I feel the opposite is true. That Demona knew intuitively that Elisa DID present a threat. Say what you want for Demona, but her subconscious knows her man.

I love that moment where BOTH Iago and Xanatos are whispering in Othello's ears. Poor slob never stood a chance.

We've got a nice little Xanatos tag in this one too. Certainly not a doozy as in "Leader" or "Metamorphosis", but it's got a nice little kick to it, I think. And that's THREE episodes in a row. X had been busy.

And then I love the last beat back at the clock tower. Goliath has confiscated Coldstone's body, to keep it safe and "among friends" should he/she ever wake up again. I wanted to keep it in the corner from that point until "High Noon". Always present and visible. We didn't for two reasons. First, we figured it would be a bit confusing. The Batcave can get away with the giant penny and other souvenirs from Batman's cases, because there ARE multiple souvenirs. But just having one immobile gargoyle in the background, as cool and creepy as that is, would be horribly distracting for any audience member who missed this one particular episode. And second, we had our tier system. What if "Legion" wasn't ready as scheduled. We couldn't have Coldstone sitting around the clock tower in later episodes that we'd be forced to air first. Talk about disconcerting. So we invented a back room. Where Coldstone, the Grimorum, the Gate and eventually the eye could be stored.

Comments welcome, as usual...


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Matt writes...

Hello I'm a really big fan of Gargoyles, I watch the show all the time.

Well here's my Q.

Is there anywhere on the web that your spin-offs are in print, or are they only at the gatherings?

Greg responds...

Pretty much only at the Gathering. But you can get a lot of info on them by checking the following ASK GREG archives...

Bad Guys
Dark Ages
Gargoyles 2158
New Olympians
Pendragon
TimeDancer

Response recorded on June 30, 2000

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Todd Jensen writes...

A sort of "ramble-reply" to "Long Way Till Morning".

I'll have to confess that the only part of my "first time I saw it" response to this episode that I now remember (other than my delight at another medieval sequence - the 984 scenes in this case) was that I initially believed that Prince Malcolm would actually succumb to the Archmage's poisoned dart, and that this was how he'd died. (It was obvious that he must have died at some point before the 994 events in "Awakening", naturally, since Katharine's ruling Wyvern by then). So the fact that, in the succeeding flashbacks in this episode after the initial one, he does live in the end, surprised me.

I certainly agree with you on the Katharine-and-Malcolm scenes; I'd also felt on my own before reading that ramble that Malcolm was unwittingly planting the seeds of bigotry in his daughter when he used the gargoyles as a means of frightening her to be good. (Kind of reminds me of something I'd read once in either "Dear Abby" or "Ann Landers" about a policeman protesting the way that a few parents use police as "bogeymen" to scare their children into being good similarly). Indeed, Prince Malcolm's judgement really does come across in this episode as a bit on the poor side beyond Katharine; he's overly confident about the Archmage no longer being a threat, while Hudson correctly recognizes that the sorcerer could return for revenge - and indeed, the Archmage does.

Demona's ambitious streak in the 984 scene reminds me a bit of Lady Macbeth similarly urging Macbeth to dispose of Duncan in Shakespeare's play - which, when you stop to think over her future, is rather appropriate. (Indeed, in "Sanctuary", Demona actually becomes "Lady Macbeth" in a literal sense - and if you ask me, she fits the Shakespearean character far better than Gruoch ever did).

I must admit that I've always had a certain fondness for Hudson, and he certainly comes across as a sympathetic figure here. One can't help but admire his dogged persistence in keeping Goliath safe from Demona in the present day. He may think of himself as all washed up, but he still does his duty in protecting Goliath against a very determined adversary.

Two scenes I particularly like in this episode, both near the end: the sight of Demona slowly approaching through the graveyard in the distance, and the bit where she emerges from behind the stone angel - both positively creepy.

Greg responds...

This was a great story, I thought.

And I agree with your Demona/Lady Macbeth assessment. A lot of that was intentional.

Response recorded on June 29, 2000

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Bengali writes...

1.What happened to Princess Elena?

2.And if she died, How?

Greg responds...

1. She died.

2. That's a story for another day...

Response recorded on June 23, 2000

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Aaron writes...

The Magus' name. Please, please, please, please, tell me the Magus' given name.

You're going to go all Xellos on me and say "That... is a secret.", I just know it.

Greg responds...

Who's Xellos?

Response recorded on June 23, 2000


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