A Station Eight Fan Web Site
Hi, Greg. Remember me? I dressed up like Shari at The Gathering in Chicago. Well, here's something I've been wondering about for years. I've been reading Ask Greg, and the GargWiki for many, many years and I've never found the answer to this question: Does Thailog speak French? And if he does, is he fluent or does he know enough to get by? You don't know how happy hearing the answer will make me. I'm kind of a huge Thailog fan!
Thanks for your time, Greg. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all our questions.
Of course, I remember you!
I imagine Thailog speaks many languages - French included.
Silly little question- Do you ever feel the urge, (or give into the urge), to slip something into a script purely because you know something about the actor? Like writing a song into a scene because you know the actor sings, (but maybe not telling them that they're going to be doing Sondheim or Gilbert & Sullivan till after they agree to sing 'some ditty'), or make them speak a foreign language because someone is fluent (but perhaps has a horrid accent)? Someone has a great cackle? Find a reason to have it come up. Someone is afraid of canaries? Put on on the character's shoulder for the whole episode. etc The only example I can think of now would be to have M'gan spout a long series of made up equations to see if Danica McKellar's head explodes in the face of nonsensical math. (Or replace of a series of made up equations with her own theorem at the last moment and wait for her to notice.)
Or does "Jalapeno!" qualify as such evil?
Jalapena definitely qualifies.
Thailog qualifies in general. (How can I write for Keith David and never give him the chance to laugh?!)
I would have loved to do musical episodes of Gargoyles and/or Spectacular Spider-Man, but in the former I couldn't think of a smart way to make it work (pre-Joss Whedon's "Once More With Feeling") and in the latter, we didn't get enough episodes...
But it was fun doing the two musical episodes of W.I.T.C.H.
I don't remember if I asked this question, but is Thailog psychotic or something? I mean I do know that he's the opposite of Goliath, but to me, he sounded like he has gone crazy.
I searched some of the archives and I don't think you've answered this, but what was your main inspiration for the creation Thailog's character? He was definitely one of my most favorite antagonists in the show, as well as Demona and Xanatos.
Young Justice was amazing! :)
This HAS to be in the archives somewhere. But there were three immediate inspirations: (1) a mix session where the word Goliath kept getting played backwards (hence the word "Thailog"), (2) John Byrne's negative zone redesign of the costumes of the Fantastic Four (hence Thailog's color scheme) and (3) the amazing talent of Keith David (hence the desire to give him the shot at playing a villainous Goliath).
This one here is a very silly question: I was reading information about Thailog and it says that something about Negative Zone, right? Well, I was playing Super Smash Bros. Brawl and a character Luigi (Mario's brother; Super Mario Bros. Series) has a very strong move known as "Negative Zone" and I am thinking if Luigi stole Thailog's Negative Zone thing...oh wait. That was from Fantastic Four...My bad. Anyway, Luigi has taken the Dark Side move and use it for the good side...maybe.
If Xanatos's archetype is the trickster, and Thailog's is the bastard, what is Demona's archetype?
The Fury, largely.
Referencing back to this question.
Well, I definitely didn't think that Demona literally told Thailog every detail of her life and every scheme she has in the works, she definitely had Operation Clean Slate in the works, and Sevarius working on the CV-1000 as a side project while she and Thailog were together.
But was Thailog aware of this particular plan?
Okay, this one has been on my mind for a while.
Demona trusted Thailog with a lot of her secrets. Thailog even said that they had no secrets from each other. Obviously, he was lying. But, did she keep things from him too?
Specifically, was Thailog aware of Operation Clean Slate? I don't think he'd have been on board with her plans for genocide. Neither did we see him feign a hatred for humanity in her presence. I tend to think that if he knew, he'd have put a stop to it while she was imprisoned in the Labyrinth.
But then again, she told him the secret to killing her, that's kind of a biggie.
So, do you think he knew about Operation Cleanslate, or not? And if he didn't know, why do you think she trusted him with the secret to killing her, but not her master plan?
I don't think Demona had TIME to reveal every little detail of her life or every little plan she has in the works... it's been a long life and there's been a lot of time to scheme.
How many issues shy were we of finding out why Thailog took the genetic samples from the Manhattan Clan?
If you're talking specifics, many...
I was sure this was in the archive, but when I checked I couldn't find it. The clones coloring is different because of the forced maturation process. Is that also why Thailog's eyes glow red instead of white.
(I could've sworn I remembered you answering it, but when I looked to confirm the answer, even going into the Thailog section and manually searching for 'red' turned up nothing.)
G2009 Radio Play - Act Three
Norman Osborn was a fool. So obsessed with the power of science, he kept the Crown of Thorns in this vault as if it was just another souvenir â" albeit an expensive one â" to hang upon his wall. But with the Crown and the Spear of Destiny together, I now have the power to force all of humanity to its knees.
These are Christian icons, Demona. Not every human being is a Christian.
Not every human being speaks Latin, but that didnât stop me from using a Latin spell to turn a city-full of humans to stone. The magic I wield is potent beyond measure. Mine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory. No human may resist. No human will be spared. None will be spared who oppose me. Just look at this foolâ¦
Her name is Obsidiana.
Of course it is. For she wears the mystic Obsidian pendant fashioned by human sorcerers. Even that is enough to put her in my thrall. She has relinquished her gargoyle birthright.
I have relinquished nothing.
Demona waves the Spear of Destiny, and Electro rises and blasts Goliath back into the wall.
Yes, Iâm surprised youâre unaffectedâ¦ since you reek of humanity. The stink of your human whore is in your hair, on your lips, everywhere. And nothing in this world will give me more pleasure, Goliath, than watching your detective on her knees to me, as she draws her service revolver and thanks me with tears of joy in her eyesâ¦ before gratefully blowing out her own brains.
That will never be.
No? My power expands with every second. I doubt sheâs far away.
You will not harm Elisa.
Goliath advances on Demona. Electro blasts away, but Goliath will not be stoppedâ¦
No one ever said you werenât persistent, Goliath. But what do you hope to gain?
(through gritted teeth)
I will turn these forces back upon you.
Impossible. I am the last true gargoyle left on this world. The Crownâs magicks cannot touch me.
So you believe. But I am not the only one who reeks of humanity. Am Iâ¦ Dominique?!
Goliath grasps the crown. The thorns bite into his hands, drawing blood. They struggle for control of the immense powerâ¦
691. GOLIATH, DEMONA
<roaring to the heavens>
Goliathâs intervention â" and his complete immunity to the Crownâs effects â" creates the smallest of fluctuation in Demonaâs control. In a haze, Spider-Man lifts his armâ¦
He shoots off a web, yanking the bloody crown from Demonaâs head.
There is a massive explosion of mystic energy and light! Demona, Goliath and Electro collapse.
The Spearâ¦ the Crownâ¦
Gone. I think theyâ¦ blew up. Calypsoâs gone too. But Iâm betting thatâs just a talent of hers. And Iâd guess sheâs taken Kraven and the pussycat with her.
But the Big Badâs still hereâ¦
Leaving behind, as always, nothing but a handful of thornsâ¦
Goliath, Spider-Man and Demona sit. Jonah, Elisa, Matt and George STAND.
While Goliath helps Obsidiana, Spidey webs up Demona, Electro and Ock. In the outer vault, Zafiro and the Trio recover, finding only an unconscious and de-venomed Eddie Brock. Outside, the bad guys have all been beaten. Goblin and Vulture, their tech badly damaged, barely manage to fly away. Carnage and Jupiter are once again Cletus and John.
Iâm here, Johnny. Your old Popâs hereâ¦
Call an ambulance, Elisa. Old Man Dracon said something about seeing a light. Then he collapsed. A stroke or something. Iâve been giving him C.P.R.
Mattâ¦ Matt! You can stop. Stop. Heâs gone.
Youâre gargoyles are flying off, Detective.
Really? Not sure I see âem myself. But is that Spidey web-slinging away?
You think? I must have missed him?
Are you all blind?! Theyâre right over there!
714. GEORGE, MATT, ELISA (UNISON)
Oh, give it a rest, Margotâ¦
Elisa, Matt, George, Margot and Jonah sit. Peter, May, Harry and Gwen STAND.
Back at the busâ¦
Iâm back. And not a single decent picture to show for my efforts.
Well, you tried your best, Peter. Iâm sure Mr. Jameson will appreciate that.
Oh, yeah. Heâs a sweetheart that way.
Emily Osborn watches as her son finally emerges from the bathroom.
Hey, Gwen. I feel much better.
Harry, Gwen, Peter and May sit. Jonah and Robbie STAND.
Later that night, at The Bugleâ¦
Whaddayou mean I canât publish it?! How else can I make them all pay for what they did to Johnny!
You canât publish because the authorities refuse to comment. We have no pictures or statements to corroborate a story that includes gargoyles, a dead Green Goblin and everything except the kitchen sink. No one will believe it. I was there, and I donât believe it! Print this, Jonah, and The Bugle becomes the next Daily Tattler.
Ms. Brant, call the bomb squad. BECAUSE IâM ABOUT TO EXPLODE!!
Jonah and Robbie sit. Gwen, Peter, Kong, Curt, Harry, EMILY OSBORN and Mary Jane STAND.
Later still, aboard OsCorpâs private jet en route to Miamiâ¦
I still canât believe we ran into you in the airport parking lot, Doctor Connors.
Yeah, and weâre so sorry you got mugged.
Dude, they took your shoes?! Thatâs hilarious! <laughs>
Yes, well, I just really appreciate the ride back to Floridaâ¦
Anytime, Doctor C. Anytime.
Harry, could I have a momentâ¦ in your fatherâs office?
Uh, sure, Mom.
Curt, Kong and Gwen sit.
734. MARY JANE
736. MARY JANE
Tiny. Cute enough, but itâs like talking to a tree stump.
Tried to warn you.
738. MARY JANE
Just say weâll spend the week as a threesome, okay, Tiger.
740. MARY JANE
Not that kind of threesome.
Mary Jane and Peter sit.
Meanwhile, Harry follows his mother Emily into the jetâs private office.
I know you were playing at being the Goblin, Harry.
What?! Mom, thatâs crazy! I was in the bathroomâ¦
Donât lie to me, baby. You hired the worst chauffer in the city to delay our progress. You had a secret hatch installed in the bus bathroom, so you could slip in and out undetected. And you left a pre-recorded âvomit tapeâ with voice recognition software. All very impressive for a sixteen-year-old. But you need to understandâ¦ the Green Goblin is not what your father wanted for you.
I have no idea what Dad wanted for meâ¦
Then let him tell youâ¦
She slips a DVD into the computer and Norman Osborn appears on screenâ¦
NORMAN OSBORN STANDS.
Harry, my son. If you are watching this, then I am dead. And I have instructionsâ¦
Norman, Emily and Harry sit. Big Man, Blackie and SHARI STAND.
Meanwhile at the Big Manâs office, he and Blackie Gaxton are visited by Shari, a young woman wearing a pendant depicting an eye atop a pyramidâ¦
750. BIG MAN
Nine. Any problems?
753. BIG MAN
Not particularly. Ms. Destine was ready to believe I could find Dracon and the others useful.
And that faux Goblin was happy to believe Iâd been fooled into thinking he was the real thing.
Blackie removes his false face, revealing that he is actually the Chameleon in disguise.
Just as he was happy to believe I was the real Blackie Gaxton. But Iâm still not sure why the Society wanted all thisâ¦?
Isnât it enough to know the Illuminati appreciates your efforts?
CHAMELEON and Big Man sit. THAILOG, BRENTWOOD, Homunculus #1, Homunculus #2 And Homunculus #3 STAND.
Shari leaves Lincolnâs office and pulls out her cellphoneâ¦
Dial Nightstone Unlimited.
The Spear? The Crown?
Waiting for you to send to Duval.
Brentwood capture little robot. Use it to control other little robots. When bright light shine, robots take spear and crown.
What should we do with the Homunculi?
Set them free. Maybe theyâll get their own series some day.
767. HOMUNCULUS #1
Free, free, set them freeâ¦
768. HOMUNCULUS #2
On basic cable and DVDâ¦
769. HOMUNCULUS #3
Homunculus #3, Homunculus #2, Homunculus #1, Shari, Thailog and Brentwood sit. Elisa and Goliath STAND.
At the castle, Elisaâs cell rings.
Mazaâ¦ Yeah, Captain Stacy said you might call. Sure, heâs right here.
She hands the phone to Goliath, who doesnât quite know how to hold it. She takes it back and puts the call on speaker.
Hey, Goliath. Itâs your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.
You protect yourâ¦ neighborhood.
Just like you do the super-hero thing without the tights.
Spider-Man, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Hey, I was just gonna say that. You saw that movie too?
God, I love youâ¦ <kiss>
Elisa, Goliath and Spider-Man sit. Kafka STANDS.
And finally â" yes, finally â" we end where we began. In the offices of Dr. Ashley Kafka at Ravencroft. Sheâs on the phone to her Board of Directors.
After all that tsuris, little has changed. Otto and Eddie are still disassociative. Max still needs a cure, and John still wants power. Cletus? He just keeps repeating, âI got a taste now,â over and over. Yes, we lost Dominic, Iâm afraid. But we do have a new patientâ¦
783. KAFKA (CONT)
Just wait until the sun goes downâ¦
Dominique and Kafka sit.
NEXT: I finally get back to answering questions...
G2008 Radio Play (Chapter IX)
12:18AM. LANTERN OF THE ABBEY. Arthur opens the transport container to look upon the Stone of Destiny. Chapter Nine: Rock of Ages. 1:06AM GMT. Arthur listens to the glowing Stone.
â¦Pointless, Arthur Pendragon, to waste time protecting any particular stoneâ¦
1:31AM. VICTORIA TOWER. Arthur, Macbeth, Hudson, Lex, Amp, Griff, Coco, Coldstone and Coldfire confer.
Perhapsâ¦ perhaps this is all unnecessary. I donât think we need to guard the stone.
Macbeth, Arthur, Hudson, Lexington, Amp, Coco, Griff, Coldstone & Coldfire sit. Coldsteel & Coyote STAND.
NOVEMBER 15, 6:16AM. LEITH. Coyote and Coldsteel stand side-by-side inside a warehouse.
No, I am not programmed for free willâ¦
Pity. You have potentialâ¦
COLDSTREAM GUARD, Macbeth, Xanatos, Coldstone & Coldfire STAND.
NOVEMBER 15, 10:02AM. A Coldstream Guard holds up a hand to stop a transport convoy from driving onto Coldstream Bridge.
245. COLDSTREAM GUARD
Get the bomb unit! Now!!
Macbeth to Coldstone: convoyâs stopped, and Xanatos is here.
Well, itâs a momentous occasionâ¦ and such a lovely dayâ¦
Safe to say heâs up to something.
Yes, safe to say.
Coldstone and Coldfire intercept Coldsteel and Coyote heading for the Bridge.
Coldsteelâs tentacles grab Coldfire, forcing her arms up so that she nearly FRIES Coldstone.
As you see, Iâve had time to mend my ways. Well, my appendagesâ¦
Release her! <pain cry>
Coldstoneâs back is raked by Coyoteâs buzzsaw-arm.
Now that weâre machines, donât you love these exhilarating daytime battlesâ¦? No nasty organic gargoyles to even the oddsâ¦
Coldfire HEAD BUTTS Coldsteel violently. His tentacles release her.
Consider the odds evened.
A t-t-temporary s-s-setbackâ¦
Then letâs make it permanent.
Out of Davidâs respect for Goliath, I am programmed to inflict only as much damage as necessary to reach our objective. But I define the parameters of ânecessaryâ.
Coldstoneâs fist SHATTERS the half-Xanatos/half-robot skull image on Coyoteâs screen. Coldstone shoves his forearm cannon down Coyoteâs âthroatâ and fires. Coyote EXPLODES! The dented Coldsteel watches the wreckage of Coyote fall toward the RIVER TWEED below.
P-p-pity. He had p-p-potentialâ¦
Coldsteel POWER-DIVES down into the river. Coldstone follows but can find no sign of Coldsteel.
Coyote & Coldsteel sit.
10:12AM GMT. COLDSTREAM BRIDGE. Xanatos stands between Macbeth and Arthur. A Marching Band plays. Xanatos presses a small one-button remote. Inside the Land Rover, the Stoneâs metal transport container is strapped to the floor of the cargo space â" which FLIPS over, so that the real container is replaced by a DUPLICATE (with a duplicate stone inside).
268. COLDSTREAM GUARD
Hold it down! The Bomb Squadâs at work!
10:38AM GMT. The Guard signals the convoy forward.
270. COLDSTREAM GUARD
Right, weâre clear. Not a bomb. Just an empty shoebox.
Coldstone to Macbeth. Weâve lost Coldsteel.
Just stay on the alertâ¦
273. COLDSTREAM GUARD
Letâs go! Weâre behind schedule!
The Stoneâs on the move again.
Coldstream Guard, Macbeth, Xanatos, Coldfire & Coldstone sit. Thailog & Shari STAND.
NOVEMBER 15, 5:43AM EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" that on a clear Christmas night, a band of Scottish patriots broke into Westminster Abbey to steal the Stone and in the process broke it in two!
Thailog & Shari sit. Arthur & Macbeth STAND.
NOVEMBER 15, 12:00PM GMT. EDINBURGH CASTLE.
The Stoneâs back where it belongs! Well, it belongs in Scone, but at least itâs back in Scotland.
Macbeth & Arthur sit. Stone & Xanatos STAND.
A land rover from the convoy drives past Macbeth and Arthur. 12:36PM. LEITH. The Land Rover pulls into a non-descript warehouse and stops in front of a smiling Xanatos. 1:06PM. Xanatos listens to the glowing Stone.
â¦Pointless, David Xanatos, to substitute yet another stone to fool the Illuminatiâ¦
Stone sits. Coldsteel STANDS.
2:23PM. Coldsteel dumps pieces of Coyote shrapnel on the floor.
Thereâs whatâs left of your boyâ¦ and hereâs your rock.
Coldsteel tosses the Coyote Diamond to Xanatos.
Oh, Iâm just its minder.
I believe that completes our bargainâ¦
Indeed. Consider your tracking device deactivated.
Pleasure doing business with you.
Coldsteel sits. FLEUR STANDS.
Three. <pause> Any problems?
Only finding a duplicate on such short notice.
4:04PM. Behind the wheel of the Land Rover, Fleur drives through Leith. Fog rises, until the street is barely visible. The fog forms into Castle Carbonek. The Land Rover drives across the drawbridge into a large cobblestone courtyard.
I still outrank you, milady. I wonât tolerateâ"
Couldnât you both try to get along? Since you are, after all, the two people I love most in this world?
I brought the Stone.
Fleur, Duval & Peredur sit. Macbeth, Griff, Amp, LUNETTE, Coldstone & Hudson STAND.
NOVEMBER 15, 8:13PM. KNIGHTâS SPUR.
I know it doesnât matter, but Iâm glad the Stoneâs back in Scotland.
You lot should stay a while. Get to know the clanâ¦
Yeah, mates, stay!
But Coldsteel is still out thereâ¦
Aye, lad, but itâs a mighty big world, and even the banished and the badduns eventually return to the clan.
Macbeth, Griff, Amp, Lunette, Coldstone & Hudson sit. Stone, Peredur & GRAIL STAND.
NOVEMBER 16, 1:06AM. CASTLE CARBONEK. A frowning Peredur listens to the glowing stone.
â¦Pointless, Peredur fab Ragnal, to have gone to such extremes merely to possessâ¦ a rock.
On APRIL 11, 1951, 1:07AM at ARBROATH ABBEY, on NOVEMBER 15, 1:07PM in a warehouse in LEITH, on NOVEMBER 15, 1:07AM in the LANTERN OF THE ABBEY, and on NOVEMBER 16, 1:07AM inside CASTLE CARBONEK, Macbeth, Xanatos, Arthur and Peredur listen to the glowing Stone of Destiny.
Do you think the Spirit of Destiny can be contained in one vessel? I am the Fatal Stone. The Lia FÃ¡il. The Stone of Bethel and Jerusalem, of Egypt, Samothrace and Portugalâ¦ The Stone at Tara and of Mora, at Iona and of Scone, in London and in Edinburghâ¦ I am the Blarney Stone, the Coronation Stone, the Hero Stoneâ¦ I am the Pillar Stone, the Stone of the Sword, the Stone of the Waters, Clach-na-Cinneamhainâ¦ The Tanist Stone, the Philosopherâs Stone, the Standing Stone, the Cornerstoneâ¦ The Foundation Stone, the Megalith Dance, the Burden of Sisyphusâ¦ I am the Rock of Gibraltar, the Pillar of Hercules, Uluru, Clach SgÃ inâ¦ Jacobâs Pillow, the Rosetta Stone, the Rune Stone, Sire of the Wyrdâ¦ I AM THE MANTLE OF FATEâ¦ I AM THE STONE OF DESTINYâ¦ I AM THE ROCK OF AGES! Do not dream of possessing me, mortal.
NOVEMBER 16, 1:07AM. CASTLE CARBONEK. Behind Peredur, Fleur listens from the doorway.
Besides, Peredur, donât you have more important matters of concernâ¦ now that your Master has awakened?
What?! King Arthur cannot be awake?!
Awake and returned. I have twice conversed with him.
But we did not expect him for another two hundred years! Everything we planned--
I must contact the Upper Echelons immediately!
Peredur exits. Fleur is no longer in the doorway. The Stone is left alone with the Holy Grail.
Peredur, Stone & Grail sit. Thailog & Shari STAND.
NOVEMBER 16, 5:44AM EST. NIGHTSTONE UNLIMITED.
Very good. Should I continue?
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" that the Stone was repaired and recovered. Some say a replica was reinstalled at Westminster; others disagree. Either way, the Stone remained undisturbed until yesterday, when it was transported to Edinburgh without incidentâ¦
And thatâs all you know of the Stone of Destiny?
Well, one last story is told--
As the sun sets, Owen Burnett and Macbeth wait for Goliath to wakeâ¦
--Though who can say if it be true?
Thailog & Shari sit.
G2008 Radio Play (Chapter VII)
XANATOS, COLDSTEEL & COYOTE STAND.
NOVEMBER 2, 6:46AM EST. Scarab Corp. Coldsteel looks on, as David Xanatos installs a diamond inside Coyote 5.0.
And what would that be?
Itâs called the Coyote Diamondâ¦
Chapter Seven: The Rock.
The stoneâs flawless surfaces and clarity increase the speed of--
Iâm sorry I asked.
My apologies. Iâm sure youâre much more interested in your own situation.
I was under the impression I had free will.
And you do. I promise summoning you was a one-time event. On the other hand, your unit does include a built-in tracking deviceâ¦ which Iâm happy to deactivateâ¦
Permanently. All I ask in return is help on one small errand. Are we agreed?
We are agreed.
XANATOS, COLDSTEEL & COYOTE sit. TALON, SATO, MAGGIE & ELISA STAND.
3:52PM EST. The Labyrinth. Talon cradles Maggie the Cat, as Dr. Jay Sato examines her. Elisa Maza looks on.
How is she, Doc?
Well, her pulse is fine, and her injuries seem to be healing nicelyâ¦
See, Derek, I said you were worried over nothing.
But Iâm a surgeon. Treating someone in Maggieâsâ¦ âconditionâ is really not my area.
Not anyoneâs, Dr. Sato. Anyone we dare trust anyway.
Itâs as if youâve revealed a new world to meâ¦
Yep, youâre a medical pioneer.
Pioneer or not, she needs an O.B.
TALON, SATO, MAGGIE & ELISA sit. Macbeth, BROOKLYN, GOLIATH, BROADWAY, OWEN & Xanatos STAND.
4:50PM EST. Eyrie Building. As the sun sets, Owen Burnett and Macbeth wait for Goliath to wake. NOVEMBER 2, 5:12PM EST. Inside the Great Hall, Macbeth addresses Goliath, Brooklyn, Hudson, Angela, Broadway, Bronx and Lexington.
Itâs called the Stone of Destiny. For centuries the kings of Scotland were crowned upon it at Sconeâ¦
Magic talking stone. Weâve heard of it.
Yes, well, the English stole it. Now, after eight hundred years, itâs finally being returned. Iâm asking for your help to ensure it gets to Scotland safely.
Donât you haveâ¦ minionsâ¦ for this?
Weâve parted ways. Please, Goliath. Many â" including your landlord â" would stop at nothing to get the Stone.
I have been wounded twice in one week. I am healed â" but not whole. But my second, Brooklyn, can lead Broadway, Lexington and Angela to join your quest.
Yeah, weâre goinâ to Scotland!!
Well, England to start with--
I donât know, Goliath, if youâre recovering, maybe this is the wrong time to send me overseas.
Ahâ¦ Yes. You are needed here. Hudson may lead this expedition.
Owen, watching the exchange by closed circuit, talks on the phone to Xanatos, whoâs about to board a private plane.
Yes, Macbeth, Hudson, Broadway, Angela and Lexingtonâ¦ Shall I attempt to stop them?
That wonât be necessary. I believe Iâve planned for this contingency.
Back in the Great Hall, Angela whispers in Broadwayâs ear.
Uhâ¦ yeahâ¦ Manhattanâs dangerous right now. Me and Angelaâll stay too. To help Brooklyn.
Thatâs great. Thanks.
Macbeth, Brooklyn, Goliath, Broadway, Owen & Xanatos sit. SHARI STANDS.
NOVEMBER 3, 5:29AM EST. Nightstone Unlimited. Shari and Thailog are in Dominique Destineâs office.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of two brothers who both loved the same female. And though all strife comes to an end one way or another, some conflicts refuse to stay dead. Xanatos and Demona used science and sorcery to create a monster from fragments of all three gargoyles, their bodies and souls. But in the end, the souls were segregated into Coldstone, Coldfire and Coldsteel. Itâs really a timeless love story.
SHARI sits. Macbeth, CUSTOMS OFFICIAL, LEXINGTON & HUDSON STAND.
3:00PM GMT. London. A private jet lands. Customs Officials greet Macbeth, as workers wheel two large crates from the planeâs hold.
55. CUSTOMS OFFICIAL
57. CUSTOMS OFFICIAL
Welcome to England, sir. Anything to declare?
Works of art for my home in Berkeley Square.
59. CUSTOMS OFFICIAL
Have to have a look in, sir.
The crates are opened, revealing Lexington and Hudson, frozen in stone. 4:30PM GMT. Macbeth waits on the roof of his Berkeley Square Townhouse for Hudson and Lexington to wake. The sun sets. 5:07PM. Itâs past sunset. Hudson and Lex are STILL frozen in stone. 6:15PM. Night. No change. 7:01PM. Macbeth grows concerned. 7:45PM. Hudson and Lex finally wake.
62. LEXINGTON, HUDSON
Whoa, I donât feel so hotâ¦ and look how dark it is? How long have we been asleep?
Welcome, lad, to the wonderful world of jetlag. Donât worry. Youâve got ten days to adjust before they move the Stone.
Macbeth, CUSTOMS OFFICIAL, LEXINGTON & HUDSON sit. Shari, INTERCOM & VINNIE STAND.
NOVEMBER 4, 5:30AM EST. Nightstone. Thailog soaks in a jacuzzi. Shari sits nearby.
The story is told -- though who can say if it be true-- of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abrahamâ¦ who fled the wrath of his brother Esau to a place he would call Bethel, where he laid his head upon a stone and had a wondrous vision!
5:35AM EST. J.F.K.
Flight 994, now boarding all rowsâ¦
Can you believe it? Iâm goinâ to Japan!
Shari, Intercom & Vinnie sit. Goliath & Elisa STAND.
9:48PM EST. Goliathâs Tower.
About Halloweenâ¦ I will not hold you to words spoken when you believed my life hung in the balance.
Even if I want to be held?
I know you care for me. That is not at issue. But what of the things I cannot give youâ¦ picnicsâ¦ normalcyâ¦?
We can have a picnic anytimeâ¦ and normalcyâs so over-rated.
She runs her fingers through his hair. He takes her into his arms and kisses her.
Goliath & Elisa sit. Shari STANDS.
NOVEMBER 5, 5:31AM EST. Nightstone. Thailog and Shari look out over the city.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" that Gathelus, a son of the king of Athens, won many victories for the Pharaoh of Egypt, who rewarded the prince with the hand of his beloved: Pharaohâs own daughter, Scota. But Gathelus had also befriended Moses, the Hebrew, who warned his young friends of the plagues to befall the Kingdom of the Nile. Gathelus and Scota determined to leave Egypt, and Moses entrusted them with Jacobâs Pillow, the Hebrewsâ sacred stoneâ¦
NOVEMBER 6, 5:32AM EST. ST. DAMIENâS CATHEDRAL. Thailog, Shari and Brentwood search for something.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" that Gathelus fled Egypt with his wife and the Stone of the Hebrews. He sought landfall on the rocky shores of Samothrace, for Scota was heavy with child and could go no farther. Still destiny blessed them with fine twin sonsâ¦
6:00AM EST. Thailog flies Shari across the city. Brentwood follows.
Gathelus and his family would wander the globe for two years before finding a home on the Iberian Peninsula in a place they named the Port of Gathelus, or Portugal. By this time the family had grown: the Athenian prince and Egyptian princess now had four healthy boys in their care not to mention one large Stone.
NOVEMBER 7, 5:33AM EST. Thailog and Shari begin a game of chess.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" that after the death of her beloved Gathelus, Scota departed Portugal with her eight sonsâ¦ only to lose five of the boys at seaâ¦ while Scota herself and another son died warriorâs deaths upon landing in Ireland. But her eldest boy, Eremon, and her youngest, Eber Finn, survived, and Eremon was crowned king upon the Stone at Tara.
Shari sits. Xanatos & FOX stand.
2:18PM GMT. Mayfair. Xanatos takes Alexander from Fox.
Darling, if you like the shoes, buy themâ¦
The black manolos in the windowâ¦ do you have them in a size nine? Lovely. Wrap them up, please.
2:45PM GMT. Fox exits the store.
7:19PM GMT. Fox admires her new shoes in the full-length mirror of her hotel room. Xanatos admires the shoebox.
Darling? Do you still need this shoeboxâ¦ or might I dispose of it?
Xanatos & Fox sit. Shari & THAILOG STAND.
NOVEMBER 8, 5:34AM EST. Nightstone. Thailog and Shari continue their chess game.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of Moses, who led the Hebrews out of Egypt and into the desertâ¦ bringing forth water from Jacobâs Pillow to quench their--
You said Moses gave the Stone to Gathelus and Scota before leading the Hebrews out of Egypt!
The story is toldâ¦
<pause> Though who can say if it be true? Right. Continue.
The Hebrews passed the Stone down the centuries, until the prophet Jeremiah offered it in dowry to King Eochaid of Ireland when he wed Tamar Tea Tephi, Princess of Judah. Eochaid ensconced the Stone at Tara and dubbed it Lia FÃ¡il.
NOVEMBER 9, 5:36AM EST.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of Cu Chullain, the Hero of Ulster, who championed Lugaid Red-Stripe for king. But when the Lia FÃ¡il would not cry to confirm Lugaid, Cu Chullain was enraged, striking with Gae Bolga, the Spear of Light, and splitting the Stone of Destiny forever!
NOVEMBER 10, 5:37AM EST. Shari captures Thailogâs white knight with her black bishop.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of young Prince Fergus of Ireland, who carried half Cu Chullainâs handiwork to Argyll in what men now call Scotland to found a kingdom called Dalriada. Though a castle called Carbonek found him instead, bringing the Priest-King Pelles and the Archmage Merlin and their request to borrow the Stone of Destiny for a purpose of their own. A purpose fulfilled in Londontown by a sword clepâd Excalibur in a stone clepâd Lia FÃ¡il drawn forth by a boy clepâd Arthur.
NOVEMBER 11, 5:38AM EST. Thailog tips over one of Shariâs black rooks with his white bishop.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of Saint Columba, he who tamed the monster of Loch Ness, before returning to the island of Iona, where Merlin and Pelles had brought the Stone once it had served their purposes. And where Columba laid down his head upon Jacobâs Pillow and breathed his last.
NOVEMBER 12, 5:39AM EST. Shariâs Black Queen is lined up to capture Thailogâs White King.
Would you prefer I lost on purpose?
Iâd fire you if you did. Donât you have a story to tell?
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of Kenneth MacAlpin, scion of Fergus, who united the Kingdoms of Scotland and was crowned High King upon the Stone at Scone. As would all the Heirs of Scota â" for the next four hundred years.
NOVEMBER 12, 10:00PM GMT. David Xanatos presses a button on a remote control. NOVEMBER 13, 6:01AM GMT+8. TIBET. Inside the old cave, Coldstone and Coldfire stand over Master Dawa and Sangpo. All react to a noise.
I believeâ¦ I believe I can find himâ¦
NOVEMBER 13, 5:40AM EST. NIGHTSTONE.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of Edward the First of England, the Hammer of the Scots, who sicced his mighty Warwolf on his neighbors to the north and took as prize the Stone of Scone, which he installed in the Coronation Chair at Westminster Abbey, where it has crowned the kings and queens of England down to this very dayâ¦
Shari & Thailog sit. Lexington, Macbeth, Hudson, Arthur, GRIFF, AMP & COCO STAND.
NOVEMBER 13, 5:32PM GMT. Hudson and Lex are atop Victoria Tower. Macbeth is below, in front of Westminster Abbey.
All clear. No sign of trouble.
Not expecting trouble tonight. Theyâre only moving the Stone from the Coronation Chair to the Lantern. It wonât leave the Abbey until tomorrow.
Aye, and the human security is tight as a drum. Iâm nae convinced you could break in there with a battering ram.
Youâd be surprised.
<yawn> Still nothing to report. Who exactly are we expecting?
Anyone. Everyone. Just stay alertâ¦
Macbeth spots a shadowy figure and pursues it down into a London Underground Stationâ¦
Iâm probably on a wild goose chase, lads. But in case Iâm not, youâd better head thisâ¦ wayâ¦
That could be a problemâ¦
Arthur Pendragon puts Excalibur to Macbethâs throat. Meanwhile, on Victoria Tower, Hudson and Lex are surrounded by gargoyles.
By the blade of Excalibur, what are you up to now, Macbeth?
King Arthur?! Iâm here to protect the Stone of Destiny!
Then our two quests are one and the same!
129. ARTHUR, MACBETH (UNISON)
Theyâll be at each otherâs throats!!
Hudson! Lexington! Bloody lovely to see you again!
You too, Griff!
Aye, lad. The baddunsâll have no chance at that Stone now!
NOVEMBER 14, 5:28AM. Macbeth radios Lex.
Itâll soon be dawn. You and Hudson go with Griff. Arthur and I will stand vigil through the day.
Arthur & Macbeth sit.
5:33AM GMT. Griff, Hudson, Lex and the other two gargoyles glide over London.
Are we headed to Soho? Goliath said you have a store thereâ¦
We do. But I thought Iâd take you home instead. To our clan--
To Knightâs Spur!
You know, Griff, I donât believe weâve been properly introduced to your Yank friendsâ¦
<Hmph> Watch who youâre callinâ a Yank, lassâ¦
Where are my manners? Hudson, Lexington, this is Constance.
My friends call me Coco.
And this is Staghart.
My friends call me Amp!
Nobody calls you Amp, luv.
Iâll call you Amp.
Welcome to Knightâs Spurâ¦
7:20AM. Atop Knightâs Spur, Old Pog, Hudson, Griff, Lex, Amp, Coco and Lunette sleep as stone.
Hudson, Lexington, Griff, Amp & Coco sit. Arthur & Macbeth STAND.
7:48AM. Macbeth and Arthur sip coffee outside a Nightstoneâs cafÃ©.
â¦Mortally wounded in 542. So they shipped me off to some magic hill and put me to sleep for a thousand four hundred fifty-three years.
Deal with a demon in 1040. Officially died in 1057. Been sleepwalking for nine hundred thirty-nine years.
<pause> Guess I got the better bargain.
Ach, I try not to dwell these days. So hereâs to the immortals. There arenât many like usâ¦
Arthur & Macbeth sit. Shari STANDS.
NOVEMBER 14, 5:42AM EST. NIGHTSTONE. Shari places her black knight in front of Thailogâs white knight.
The story is told â" though who can say if it be true â" of Robert the Bruce of Scotland, who defeated the English at Bannockburn with the help of an Irish ally, Cormac MacCarthy. With the victory, came a prize: a fragment of the Fatal Stone that England had taken from Scone. This fragment, the Bruce gave to MacCarthy, whose descendents had it installed at Blarney Castle, where it is said to grant the gift of gab. Iâve kissed it myself a time or twoâ¦
Shari sits. Hudson, Macbeth & Arthur STAND.
NOVEMBER 14, 6:32PM GMT. Knightâs Spur. Hudson, Macbeth and Arthur confer in a book-lined study.
Lex, Griff, Constance and Staghart sent you home to rest thenâ¦
Aye, Hudson. Weâll catch a few hours sleep then head back out. But youâ¦?
I had some questions for the Pendragon. Werenât you on a quest to find your wizard?
Indeed. And Sir Griff and I searched for Merlin in all the obvious places. But to no gain. So Iâve been âdoing researchâ on Merlinâ¦ and on myself.
Hudson examines a copy of Le Morte DâArthur by Thomas Malory.
So many booksâ¦ are any of them true?
All things are trueâ¦ few things are accurate.
Aye. No bloody kidding.
Hudson contemplates this.
Hudson, Macbeth & Arthur sit.
Tomorrow, Chapter VIII...
When Thailog produces his new batch of clones will they be carbon copies of the Manhattan clan, or will he have Sevarius dabble about to mix and match, so he has clones that are mixed like Delilah?
Why did Thailog not clone Angela? I know in the past you've said that Demona never released the mosquito to gain Angela's dna and that's why. But Thailog could have easily have had his own mosquito(sounds so silly when I say it like that) and got dna samples from the clan himself like he did from Demona and Eliza. Wouldn't he have wanted the additionally manpower? He was planning on betraying Demona anyway that's why he created Delilah. Why respect Demona wishes with Angela? Did he think the other male clones would be easier to control without another female gargoyle?
Your premise is incorrect.
When would Thailog have had the opportunity to gather Angela's DNA (before Clan-Building, I mean)? He got Elisa's DNA from one of Demona's mosquitos. We saw that in the episode. One presumes he got Demona's the same way. That is, the mosquitos were released and took a blood sample. It's not like Demona could tell them whom to bite. Her only control was to NOT release a mosquito. So when Angela was around, she didn't release one.
Just a comment on an archetype that seems to be a theme in your shows. I can't help but notice that the series you produce are populated by tricksters.
Puck is an obvious and classic example, the original trickster. Also, "Gargoyles" has Raven, Anansi, and Coyote who were also literal tricksters.
Beyond that, one of the lead villains, Xanatos, was a trickster... he even said so himself. That's an interesting choice of archetypes for the primary antagonist.
Thailog, while you've cited the bastard archetype often enough, outside of that, he seems like a trickster as well. Which makes sense since he was programmed by one. Granted, he's a more malevolent trickster than Xanatos, but he still displays those characteristics.
Meanwhile, over in in "Spectacular," you have Spider-Man as, perhaps, the most benevolent trickster you have yet to write. Fitting, he is the hero after all, and the people he acts like a trickster towards usually have it coming.
And, of course, you have a more sinister trickster in Green Goblin, hie arch-nemesis.
I know from personal experience how difficult tricksters can be to write, as I've often had to jump through hoops to do it right,
I haven't seen WITCH so I have no idea if this archetype shows up there or not. But it seems to me like the trickster archetype is a favorite of yours to write, and you do it so well.
So, does it just come naturally? Is Greg Weisman a trickster himself, or do you ever find yourself jumping through hoops as I sometimes do to create schemes worthy of the trickster you're writing?
There's some definite hoop-jumping going on. Personally, I'm more of a bastard than a trickster. But I do enjoy both archetypes, so I do the work to make them worthy.
You'll notice, however, that each of the tricksters you named, with the exception of Xanatos, were based on existing sources, which helps. As for Xanatos, he was a variation on General Eiling (from Captain Atom), who was more of a bastard. And Eiling, in turn, was loosely based on Captain Kirk, or rather a dark mirror of Kirk (and, no, that's not a reference to the "Mirror, Mirror," as the Mirror Kirk in that episode couldn't fool anyone).
Thailog is more in the classic bastard mode than the trickster mode -- at least in my mind -- though I'll admit there's definite overlap between the two archetypes.
*** BIG BAD SPOILERS ***
Another great issue of "Bad Guys," it ups the ante even more from the last issue. Action packed, and a villain you want to see get beaten up. And great to see Karine Charlebois return after her absence last issue.
Sevarius is, as he's always been, a hammy bastard. But, what a hammy bastard. He destroys peoples' lives, and he has fun while doing it.
The new mutates, I didn't think it was possible, but this is even worse than the first four Mutates. Two of them are just children. Now, they're almost literally insects. It is very strongly implied that this is all being done on Thailog's behalf, which probably makes the clone the perfect employer for Sevarius. Yes, you could really feel Hunter's rage here.
And, when Tasha hung herself... damn. This is an advantage to not having the series on television. Wow.
The scheme to mutate the people at Times Square was just, well, if this is indeed Thailog behind it, he's really stepping up his game. Those poor tourists, because only tourists go to New Year's Eve in Times Square, us natives are at private parties getting plastered (I guess no one invited Brendan and Margot to a party).
We also get more hints as to what Thailog is planning with the DNA he stole from the gargoyles in #5 of the main book. It's not exactly what we thought it was, and knowing Greg, should that surprise us? He keeps throwing us more and more curve balls.
The action was intense, the story was good. It was fun seeing Fang announced as their newest recruit... and everyone looks so happy about it. #3 of "Bad Guys" alluded to Hunter having a superior that she reports to. #4 finally confirmed it. If it was her call, I doubt Fang would be on board.
Now that the team is together, I hope that in #5, ten years after seeing the "Bad Guys" leica reel for the first time, we finally find out what is on that island being protected by those giant robots.
A little comment, of course. I could easily hear Tim Curry and Jim Belushi's voices in my head as I read Fang and Sevarius. Those two are just so over the top, this dialogue is just natural for them. I loved it.
And, cameos, cameos, cameos.
Erin and Benny... Greg mutated his two kids. Cute. ;)
Quite a few at Times Square. Long time fans:
Jennifer L. Anderson... she's the one laughing, and the guy looking back with the "God woman, what is that noise" look amuses me. Funny if you've ever heard her laugh. ;)
Stephanie Lostimolo, the former cover colorist (and colorist for #5 of "Gargoyles") giving Eric "Gorebash" Tribou of Station Eight a noogie. Yup, witnessed that in person too.
Cindy Kinnard making her second cameo in the series, she briefly appeared in #5 at Xanatos's party.
Seth Jackson all the way on the right.
None of them native New Yorkers, because, as I said, only tourists go to Times Square for New Years. Come on people, why? You're not allowed to bring booze, and you'll be freezing your butts off for hours on end. Oh, and you never know when some creepy Rocky Horror Picture Show fan and his Furry thug of a buddy might decide to drop a virus on you!
Great issue, I loved it.
*** END SPOILERS ***
I probably shouldn't say this, but all your Thailog assumptions are incorrect.
Why does Sevarius make clones of the Manhattan Clan for Thailog in "The Reckoning" after Thailog tried to kill him along with Xanatos and Goliath in "Double Jeopardy?" In that episode, Thailog told Goliath he had decided to hate him as he hated Xanatos and Sevarius. Why would Thailog ask Sevarius to help him?
Thailog's smart enough to value an asset. And you can't trust everything Thailog says anyway; he's a bit of a performer.
Seeing "Reckoning" when Demona was explaining to Angela how she survived over a thousand years made me think, how much does anyone really know about her immortality; for example during "City of Stone" she lied to Xanatos about it, so…
1. How much of Demona's true story (about MacBeth, her immortality, the Weird Sisters, her clan after Wyvern, the Hunter(s), etc.) does Angela really know?
2. How much does Thailog know about Demona's true story?
3. How much does Xanatos know about Demona's true story?
4. How much does Puck/Owen know about Demona's true story?
5. How much do Goliath and the rest of the Manhattan clan know about Demona's true story?
1. Very little.
2. Very little.
3. Very little.
4. Quite a bit.
5. Very little.
Did Thailog know about Demona's plan to wipe out humanity with the virus and the praying gargoyle? If the answer is no, do you think Thailog would have supported Demona's plan if they hadn't split up in Reckoning?
I doubt Thailog would have been happy. There's too much Xanatos in him.
Hi, I especially enjoyed the series like many others here. I particularly like how the characters were portrayed and developed. Shari seems to be very interesting and I hope we get to know more about who she is later on. Also her relationship to Thailog, whom I never found to be evil. I mean, sure Thailog is a bit maniacal and not so nice, but he's never done anything heartless. I mean even though his body is fully developped, he's still kinda like immature right? Like a child still sorta...he's like someone who's never really been taught why doing wrong was wrong. Why else would he not have killed Goliath or Elisa when he had the chance. Sure he said that "suffering" is just a bonus...but is that kinda like a mask to hide something he always yearned for? Is Thailog truly evil? Will he ever learn to cherish anything?
I'm not going to address what might happen to Thailog in the future -- other than to say keep reading, please. But I think he's done some heartless stuff -- a lot of heartless stuff -- already.
you said before that you came up with the name Thailog from listening to Goliath's name backwards but wouldn't it be spelled/pronounced htailog instead of thailog?
No. Sounds don't respect spelling conventions. "TH" is a sound. In any case, it sounded like Thailog.
Dear Greg, I am curious, what are Thailog's opinions on magic?
I asked this question before. You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah having an egg. "Delilah is genetically much more Gargoyle than human. She is capable of laying a gargoyle egg. Thailog would have insisted on that. But she couldn't mate with a human without some scientific or magical help."
This suprised me as Thailog doesn't strike me as the parenting type. Does Thailog want his own family? As a clone i found it odd that he would have insisted on procreating naturally. Why do you think this is, deep down does he consider himself something lesser than other gargoyles as a clone?
I meant Thailog would have insisted on Delilah being CAPABLE of laying eggs.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
"Dominique Destine" marries "Lennox Macbeth". But as the sun sets, Macbeth learns the truth when Dominique transforms back into Demona. She quickly renders him unconscious. But when Thailog arrives, he secretly helps Macbeth escape. His plan is for Macbeth and Demona to kill each other so that he will inherit both their fortunes. Elisa Maza intervenes by temporarily "killing" both of them. Demona flees with Thailog, but Macbeth and the gargoyles declare a truce. Later, Elisa and the gargoyles take the skiff back to Avalon.
Just a silly little question. Obviously, Thailog makes his residence in the Nightstone building. So far we've seen a throne room, and we've seen a jacuzzi. Thailog is quite the hedonist, isn't he? Doesn't surprise me, he always came off as one to me. My question is, are these new? New as in, since "Hunters Moon"? Or were they there when Demona was running the place, if so, did she make use of them? The throne doesn't seem her style, she's never come across as all that much of a hedonist to me.
Keep in mind that the building was largely outfitted while Demona was in prison in the Labyrinth.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Goliath, Hudson and Demona turn to stone mid-battle. When the sun sets, Goliath awakens healed. Demona is forced to flee.
Elisa Maza and the gargoyles arrive in Paris during the day. Elisa starts to call her parents, but when she spots Macbeth and Demona together, she follows them to Macbeth's Chateau. Then she follows Demona to Notre Dame Cathedral, where she loses her trail. After sundown, she rejoins the gargoyles and fills them in. Goliath attempts to confront Demona at the Cathedral and is surprised to find her allied (and apparently in love) with Thailog. Angela overhears their confrontation and realizes that Demona is her biological mother. Goliath and his friends depart. Demona informs Thailog that she has successfully set up their new international corporation: Nightstone Unlimited, owned and operated by Dominique Destine and "Alexander" Thailog.
I was wondering about Shari's role as Thailog's executive assistant. We've already seen her feeding Thailog grapes, and telling him stories, alongside playing chess with him. The latter reminded me of Xanatos and Fox in "Upgrade" while the image of her being carried by Thailog in flight seemed very "Evil Goliath & Elisa" to me, but that's just a tangent.
My question is, who is Alexander Thailog's public face? Before "The Reckoning", obviously Dominique Destine was able to speak for both herself and Thailog. Now with Thailog operating Nightstone alone, and Demona laying low, I wonder. Does Shari represent Alexander Thailog in any corporate capacity? Or does someone else? He probably has a middleman of some kind.
I don't think Shari is all that corporate-genic.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Convinced that David Xanatos is responsible for Elisa Maza's disappearance, Talon leads the Trio in an attack on the Eyrie Building. Xanatos and Owen Burnett test out their new (Thailog motivated) security system and Owen's new stone fist. Ultimately, however, they allow the foursome to fruitlessly search the place once Xanatos discovers that Goliath and the others are missing. Meanwhile, Fang has staged a coup down in the Labyrinth. He takes Talon prisoner upon his return. Maggie the Cat, however, escapes with Claw's aid and seeks help at the Clock Tower. After sundown, Brooklyn leads the gargoyles and Maggie against Fang and his minions. Talon is freed and Fang is captured.
Dingo, Matrix, Hunter, Yama and Fang are approaching an island when their battle-copter Redemption is blown out of the sky.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Edward the Confessor dies of natural causes. His brother-in-law, Harold Godwinson, succeeds him.
Goliath, Lexington, Bronx and Brooklyn return to Castle Wyvern atop the Eyrie Building but are intercepted by Elisa Maza, Hudson and Broadway, who finally manage to convince Goliath to follow Elisa to their new home at the Clock Tower above the 23rd Precinct -- but not before Goliath warns Owen Burnett that the clan will some day return. David Xanatos is finally released from jail that morning and returns to the castle. He starts serving his probation. Later that day, Xanatos goes to Gen-U-Tech Systems to observe Anton Sevarius' progress. Sevarius has successfully cloned Goliath and begins to accelerate the growth of "Thailog".
Hudson and the Trio have been searching for Goliath and Bronx to no avail. Broadway, realizing that Elisa Maza is missing too, brings her cat Cagney back to the Clock Tower. Brooklyn resists taking the reins of leadership, but he does go to visit Talon and Maggie the Cat in the Labyrinth, where homeless humans like Al, Chaz and Lou have joined the Mutates in what is supposed to be a free society of outcasts. Broadway visits Matt Bluestone next, but Matt is equally in the dark over his partner's disappearance. Lex eavesdrops on Elisa's parents and learns they are also worried. Meanwhile on Queen Florence Island, Elisa and the gargoyles find each other again, and then find Grandmother as she transforms into the Thunderbird. Grandmother later admits that she was undergoing these transformations to convince Natsilane to take up arms against Raven to save the island. When Natsilane meets the gargoyles, he is convinced. The gargoyles and Natsilane battle Raven and drive him away. With Raven gone, Grandmother is able to heal the island. The travelers again return to Avalon, where it is six in the morning, causing Goliath, Angela and Bronx to turn to stone.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Captain has a change of heart and rescues Goliath. The Captain's spirit ascends. Hakon is trapped alone in the caverns below Wyvern. The quartet of travelers return to Avalon so that they may attempt to find Manhattan again. Meanwhile in Paris, Demona encounters Thailog. They quickly form an alliance.
In "Double Jeopardy", Owen has been quoted in saying that Thailog is smarter than Xanatos. In your opinion,
a) does this statement remain to be a true from your point of view?
b) Is a character's intelligence something you consciously think about when writing his/her dialogue? For example, have you ever written dialogue for a character and said to yourself, "This doesn't sound like something this character would say!"?
c) Who is THE smartest character in the Gargoyle Universe, right now in 1996? Does any one particular character stand out in your mind?
a. "remain to be a true" ?? I'm guessing that's a typo of some kind, but I'm not entirely sure what you meant. Is it true? Well, it was certainly true in that one instance -- in the sense that Xanatos was clearly outsmarted. But only time will tell if over the long haul a smarts champion can be declared.
c. Smart in what sense?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Tony Dracon's men blow up Art & Lois' Restaurant. Maria Chavez, Matt Bluestone and Elisa Maza continue to pretend that a bitter Elisa has gone bad, this time for the benefit of Pal Joey, one of Dracon's men. Meanwhile, Thailog arrives in Paris and begins sleeping days atop Notre Dame Cathedral.
Approximately ten years passed between your resignation from "Gargoyles" and your return to it for the comic book. You've indicated that during those ten years, your ideas about the Gargoyles Universe have undergone some alterations, and new ideas have come along.
The three new stories that have come out in the comic book series so far are the Double Date with Goliath and Elisa (Gargoyles #3-5), the encounter with Coldstone in Tibet (Gargoyles #6) and the formation of the Redemption Squad (begun in Bad Guys #1). We know that you'd planned all three of those (in their basic forms) by the time that you resigned from "Gargoyles". What I'm curious about is: which of the following characters or elements had you come up by the time you left the television series, and which did you come up with afterwards?
1. Quincy Hemings
3. Brentwood deciding to team up with Thailog
4. The reason for Duval's phone call to Xanatos in "The Journey" being the mission that Quincy gives Xanatos in #5
5. The Tazmanian Tiger and his thylacines.
You're really determined to peek behind the curtain, aren't you?
1. I had the character, not the name.
4. Not all the details, but the basics, yeah.
5. The Tiger then. The thylacines since.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
David Xanatos arrives at the oil rig with the ransom money. He confronts Anton Sevarius but quickly realizes Sevarius believes Xanatos himself is behind the scheme. It is soon revealed that Thailog has been playing everyone against each other from the beginning. He captures Sevarius, Xanatos, Goliath and Elisa Maza. All four escape, but Thailog is seemingly killed when the rig blows up. However, the next morning, Xanatos realizes Thailog escaped with the money.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Elisa Maza, Broadway and Lexington are lured to Long Island after midnight by a false tip. They are assaulted by a creature that appears to be Goliath. That morning, mercenaries hired by Anton Sevarius steal a stone Thailog from David Xanatos. After sunset, they deliver their prize to Sevarius on an oil rig just off the coast of Long Island. Not long after, Elisa, Goliath, Broadway and Lex return to Long Island to investigate Goliath's mysterious look-alike. They find a Gen-U-Tech Systems tracking device. Meanwhile, Xanatos receives a ransom call demanding twenty million dollars in exchange for the creature. He and Owen Burnett quickly deduce that Sevarius is behind the gargoyle-napping. At Gen-U-Tech, Lexington and Broadway discover the truth about Goliath's clone Thailog. Meanwhile, in Scotland, Xanatos' security team begins searching for the Loch Ness Monster.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Macbeth sees enough of the broadcast to realize what Demona is up to. Elisa goes to the Clock Tower to wait for the gargoyles to awaken. At sundown, Owen, Fox and Elisa (as well as most of the humans in Manhattan) turn to stone. The gargoyles awaken at sundown and discover Elisa and the other stone humans. (Thailog also awakens at sundown. With no one at the castle to warn him, he watches Demona's spell on television and immediately turns to stone. He will remain stone in the television room, 24 hours a day until the spell is broken. But he has had his first exposure to Demona.) The gargoyles stop at Robbins' house. Being blind, he was unaffected by Demona's spell. They begin to search the city for Demona, who's on a killing spree, destroying stone humans in the streets. Separately, Macbeth and Xanatos also seek Demona.
5:37am EST - [withheld]
Does Thailog have more respect for Brentwood now then he did originally? If so, is it due to Brentwood's chosing Thailog over the others, or due to something else?
I'll leave the answers to all these questions to your interpretations.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Owen tells Xanatos the results of his Gargoyles vs. The Pack experiment. With Fox and Wolf under arrest, The Pack television series is quickly cancelled. Dingo flees to Europe.
Fox arrives at the Eyrie with Xanatos' father, Petros. That night, Goliath decides to attend the wedding. He brings his half of the Phoenix Gate along. Fox and David are married. Demona tricks Goliath into giving her his half of the Gate. She then uses it to travel back in time to the year 975. Goliath, David, Fox and Petros Xanatos go too. Seconds later, they return, having fulfilled their roles in the time-stream. That same night, Thailog, who had intentionally been kept hidden from Goliath, initiates his plan to steal $20 million from Xanatos.
5:32am EST - [withheld]
6:00am EST - [withheld]
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Just after midnight, Angela and the Trio head out into the city. They're glad that both Goliath and Maggie are recovering.
Just before dawn, Shari tells Thailog the story of Goliath, Angela, Elisa and Bronx's journey from Avalon to the Himalayas in Tibet - where they encountered Coldstone - and of their subsequent arrival in Shambahla.
At dawn, Coldsteel joins Xanatos at Scarab Corp.
6:46am EST - [withheld]
6:47am EST - [withheld]
3:52pm EST - [withheld]
3:53pm EST - [withheld]
4:50pm EST - [withheld]
5:12pm EST - [withheld]
5:14pm EST - [withheld]
5:15pm EST - [withheld]
5:18pm EST - [withheld]
Well, there seems to be some confusion over what exactly is going on at Nightstone Unlimited. Maybe some of the confusion is intentional on your part to keep us guessing, but the fact that you were clarifying some facts at the GargWiki suggest to me that we are all not on the same page. So, in an attempt to figure out whats up, I have some questions. I'll totally understand if you won't/can't answer some/all of these. I wouldn't want to you to reveal anything before you are ready.
1. Okay, in "Hunter's Moon" it seemed pretty obvious that Ms. Destine was running Nightstone. No one was sure if Mr. Thailog had survived the Coney Island fire yet, so there is no issue here, I guess. My question is does Demona know as of "Invitation Only" that Thailog is alive? If so, when/how did she find out?
2. Was Nightstone Unlimited ALWAYS Thailog's and Demona only took it over when he was assumed dead?
3. Has Demona returned to Nightstone since "Hunter's Moon"?
4. Is Sevarius an employee of Nightstone now, or is he just doing occasional contract jobs for Thailog?
5. Has Sevarius heard from Demona since "Hunter's Moon"?
6. Is there anything else you feel like telling us about the whole Thailog/Demona Nightstone situation? Did Thailog and Demona have a prenup or something? The transition from their business to her business to his business is just kinda hard to figure out.
1. No comment.
2. Nightstone Unlimited belonged to both of them. Dominique never had Alexander Thailog declared deceased. Since no one ever saw the reclusive tycoon anyway, there didn't seem to be any point.
4. He's pulling in a salary.
5. Not that he's mentioned.
6. There's no transition, really. They jointly held/hold title. He vanished for a time, and she took sole control. Now she's vanished, and he's taken sole control. As for what the future holds... well, that would be telling.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Using the Phoenix Gate, Goliath, Demona, David Xanatos, Petros Xanatos and Fox come back in time from the year 1995. Demona immediately uses the Gate to disappear again. Xanatos saves the life of Princess Elena of Normandy. He is rewarded with a coin, which he gives to the Norman Ambassador, a fellow member of the Illuminati Society. The 1995 Goliath encounters the 975 Hudson. The 975 Demona is studying under the Archmage as his apprentice. He instructs her to steal the Phoenix Gate from Princess Elena, which she does. But then she is confronted by the 1995 Demona and Goliath. After a brief trip for all three to 994, the 975 Demona returns them to her time and winds up on the outs with the Archmage. She breaks the Phoenix Gate in two and gives half of it to the 975 Goliath at the wedding of Malcolm and Elena. Meanwhile, all the 1995 participants return to their own time.
David Xanatos receives an anonymous gift of a medieval coin worth $20 grand. It is the start of his fortune, and was actually sent to David by his 1995 counterpart, via the Illuminati Society from the year 975.
A fully-grown Thailog is released from his maturation chamber and takes up residence at the Eyrie Building. Xanatos receives a letter from the Illuminati Society. It is from himself, sent in the year 975. It explains that he sent himself the medieval coin that was the basis of all his wealth. The letter also explains how he set this all up by turning his wedding to Fox into a time travel excursion to 975.
Xanatos gets a new assignment from Quincy and the Illuminati. Hudson confirms he is a gargoyle to Robbins. Thailog and the clones fight the Manhattan Clan. During the battle, Thailog gets DNA samples from Goliath, Angela, Broadway, Lexington, Elisa, Brooklyn, Hudson and Bronx. Delilah, Malibu, Burbank and Hollywood reject Thailog, but Brentwood chooses to depart with him. Thailog gives the DNA to Sevarius and gains a new personal assistant, Shari. Doctor Sato treats Goliath. Goliath and Elisa declare their love for each other.
I have a few questions about the Puck/Owen duality or rather who knows about it.
1. Outside of Goliath's clan living in Manhattan, David Xanatos, Fox, and Alex, how many others know about that duality?
2. Does Thailog know about that duality?
1. Well, Oberon and Titania know. That's all we know for sure.
2. Why would he?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
In part because both he and Elisa want to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of Receiving Stolen Property. He will be sentenced to six months in county jail including time served, with every hope that the sentence will be reduced to three months for good behavior.
Xanatos confronts Fox and attempts to get the Eye back from her. She transforms in front of him and escapes. Xanatos intentionally involves Goliath and Elisa in an attempt to manipulate them into helping Fox and retrieving the Eye. Goliath quickly catches on and initially refuses to help. Later that night, the Trio, Goliath, Elisa, Vinnie, Brendan and Margot all attend a Greenwich Village Halloween block party. When the Werefox attacks, Goliath and Elisa agree to help Xanatos save Fox. Together, they manage to remove the Eye from the creature, which reverts to Fox. Goliath takes possession of the Eye.
Matt Bluestone convenes a meeting of the Gargoyle Taskforce (including himself, Elisa, Officers Morgan & Travanti, Detectives Harris & Chung, Margot Yale and Martin Hacker). Hacker has Illuminati meetings with Matt, Xanatos and Castaway. Morgan asks Elisa on a date. After turning him down and spending time with Jason in the hospital prison ward, she goes to the Eyrie. The gargoyles awaken at sunset. Fox has Halloween costumes for Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway and Angela in anticipation of the Masque that Xanatos is throwing later that night. Elisa breaks up with Goliath. Demona recovers the Atlantean crystal that was at the heart of the Praying Gargoyle. In, the Labyrinth, Al is showing Shari around. Goliath and Brooklyn arrive. Brooklyn wants to ask Delilah to the party, but Goliath does instead. Goliath, Brooklyn and Delilah depart. Thailog attacks. Terry Chung, Billy Greene, Susan Greene and Sarah Browne trick-or-treat at Jeffrey Robbins' home, where Hudson and Bronx are visiting. Following Illuminati orders, Xanatos takes Fox and Alexander to a party at the White House. They chat with Ambassador Chung, and David meets Illuminatus Quincy Hemings. Meanwhile, Xanatos' Masque goes on without him at the Eyrie. Attendees include Judge Roebling, Doctor Sato, Brendan, Margot, Lexington, Brooklyn, Angela and Broadway. Elisa and Morgan arrive together, as do Goliath and Delilah. Thailog, having taken the male clones from the Labyrinth, arrives to collect Delilah and stabs Goliath.
Xanatos' probation expires.
Do the other clones resent Brentwood for going with Thailog?
We'll have to ask them.
Questions about issue #6
1. In this issue, I noticed that Shari, #9, had black around her eyes. I scanned through the previous issues and noticed she didn't have this before. Was this an artistic error or is it part of her look?
2. On the next to last page, I noticed that Thailog turned to stone, but his clothing did not. Was this deliberate or an artistic error?
1. Neither. It's artistic interpretation.
2. Deliberate. A choice I made at the script stage.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
When Demona refuses to allow Thailog to kill Angela, he reveals an additional clone: Delilah, created from a combination of Demona and Elisa's DNA. Demona frees Talon, Goliath and the clan. They manage to recapture Fang and take down the clones. But while fighting each other, Demona and Thailog seemingly perish in a fire. Talon offers to take the other clones back to the Labyrinth where he promises to teach them to think for themselves.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Xanatos acquires the Cauldron of Life and prepares to test it by ordering the construction of a pair of Macbeth robots and a statue of Hudson. He also begins looking for a sword that will match Hudson's to be used with the statue.
Relieving Talon, Goliath takes his shift guarding the Labyrinth prisoners. Thailog busts Demona and Fang out. Talon and Goliath pursue them to Coney Island. Goliath departs and quickly returns with Angela, the Trio and Hudson. All are captured by Fang, Demona, Thailog and his clones: Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu and Burbank (made from the DNA of Broadway, Lexington, Brooklyn and Hudson, respectively).
I thought clones were considered like... I don't know a sibling or something near that? Why is Thailog called Golaith's son, wouldn't he be seen as his brother instead?
From Goliath's point of view, Thailog was created from him. A sibling to Goliath is someone who hatches at more or less the same time. A child comes after making use of the parents DNA, etc. Thailog is thus a son.
I know this may sound dumb but, just please answer it to humor me. Who thought of the name for Thailog. Was his name made up, cause I've never even heard of it.
I came up with it. It's "Goliath" said backwards. I was at an audio mix session for the movie version of the "Awakening" pilot and the mixers were having trouble with one section and kept having to rewind the tape to hear it again. Everytime they went backwards I heard Elisa shout out "Thailog!" (Haven't I told this story like a hundred times?)
1. Since Mr. Duval isn't the head of the Illuminati as previously thought then who is the true number one? Is he a previously established character?
2. Given that the Illuminati has a membership of 666, I guess they aren't ubiquitous as previously thought, so how much control do they really have over world affairs?
3. When was Thailog recruited by them?
1. I'll tell you right here and right now in this forum. Where else would I reveal it after all? The answer is, that is the identity of #1 is >urk< >ugh< did you have to use the slow-acting poisonous blow-darts, you bastard?! You know how painful they are!!!
2. How much do you want them to have?
3. Prior to issue #5.
1.Why did Thailog set the ransom demand in Double Jeopardy for $10,000,000? I mean why not more or why not less.
You pick a number that's the highest possible number you think you can get without causing the ransom-payer to balk -- for any reason. I'm sure Thailog did his research.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Sevarius completes his involvement with Thailog's project and is paid off. Thailog begins programming his new clones. Meanwhile, Angela and Demona are still debating the latter's behavior. Claw arrives to take over guarding the prisoners for the day shift. Angela elects to sleep as stone in front of her mother's cell.
Why didn't Thailog just make a clone of Demona? He's not attracted to Elisa, you made it clear Goliath and Elisa was more spiritual. Was he just looking to piss Demona off?
Even assuming that Goliath is not physically attracted to Elisa -- which is NOT something I've "made clear" as I disagree with that premise -- what does that have to do with Thailog?
But, yeah, pissing Demona off was a bonus.
You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah laying an egg, does he want his own offspring?
Did I say that? Where? When?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Xanatos' programming of Thailog is in full swing.
How much did Fox know about the thailog project plotted by Xanatos?
As much as she thought to inquire about, I'd guess.
I was just wondering why Thailog didn't clone Angela, i know Demona didn't release the bug when she watching her but even still if he could get Eliza's dna without her knowing he could do the same for Angela. If he was expecting Demona to betray him anyway even with Delilah he was at a one "man" disadvantage from a tactical point of view it just would have made more sense for Thailog to clone Angela too.
When would he have gotten Angela's DNA?
You can pinpoint EXACTLY when he got Elisa's, BTW, if you watch the episode carefully.
Of course, NOW he has everyone's DNA, everyone in the Manhattan Clan, that is.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Lex is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA and then returns to Nightstone Unlimited, where Sevarius and Thailog are preparing clones of all the gargoyles.
Just got done reading Gargoyles #4...it was a great balance between drama and all out action.
I liked the scenes with Thailog the best... he's got to be my favorite "villain" in the series, as he thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's just got it all wrong.
It also seems like the Illuminati plot is thickening... this time Xanatos said "thirty-six" and the waiter said "two", not "thirty-two"... I'm looking forward to seeing what this all means.
Also, I was wondering why the comic now has a floppier paper cover and still costs the same. The first three had solid stock covers which I assumed is why it was 3.50 instead of the normal 2.99 price that most comics are..
Keep up the great work, it's great to see the Gargs storyline moving forward.
I don't know that Thailog thinks he's doing the RIGHT thing. I think he thinks he's doing the THAILOG thing. In which case, he pretty much has it all RIGHT.
As for the price, the answer's mostly fairly obvious. Smaller print runs mean costs are spread over fewer issues. Two ways to deal with cost are to raise price or lower costs. SLG apparently chose to do both. For SLG, Gargoyles has two unusual-for-them HIGH costs. One is the color interiors (most of SLG's books are black and white) and the other -- and most significant cost -- is the very expensive Disney license. Most SLG books are not licensed. The double whammy of those two factors makes Gargoyles one of SLG's three MOST expensive books to produce. When sales were over 10K, they could afford the paper quality and lower price. When sales fall below 7K, not so much.
Where was Thailog during present-day events of City of Stone?
I'm not saying.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Thailog has reached full gargoyle adolescence. A discoloration of skin and hair is the only side effect of the accelerated growth.
Attracted by multiple reports of gargoyle sightings in Manhattan, the Canmore siblings begin making inquiries and creating the false identities they will need to find Demona there and destroy her.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Demona and Thailog return to Manhattan and hire Dr. Sevarius away from Gen-U-Tech. Sevarius reveals that the female gargoyle that Demona saw in Paris is the biological child of her and Goliath.
Just a little something I've been thinking about. One of the things I always liked about "Gargoyles" was the status quo could always be changed. The cast was rich enough that the perspectives would alone would be fascinating. Case in point, the revelation of gargoyles to the world.
Obviously, we know how Goliath feels about this, and he dreams of one day bringing about a new golden age.
We haven't seen Demona react to, or comment on the revelation, but her thoughts and plans are only too guess. Kill them before they kill us.
But, Thailog on the other hand, he's much harder to predict. He has never shown an interest in "race relations", nor demonstrated any animosity towards humans. But, at the same time, he is a gargoyle. He has to have an opinion on this. The Quarrymen are as much a threat to him as they are to Goliath and his clan.
As I said, he's hard to predict. I don't see him trying to reach out and build bridges, like Goliath. Nor do I see him working towards their destruction, like Demona. For one, he's not that wasteful, and he clearly likes the idea of holding economic power, or else why would he have helped form Nightstone Unlimited?
Of course, it all depends on what Thailog's goals are. So far, everything we've seen him do seem like means to an end. Adding to his wealth, by robbing Xanatos, and eliminating Demona and Macbeth. Creating flunkies and his own concubine when creating Delilah and the clones, and forming Nightstone, which he lost to Demona. But, these don't feel like overall goals, more like stepping stones. Which makes me think, what does he want? For that matter, does he even know what he wants beyond proving himself to be superior to Goliath and Xanatos?
I'm sure you have something in mind, and hopefully future issues of the comic will shed some light on this. Overall, I think Thailog is a fascinating character, a great villain. And I eagerly anticipate seeing more of him in issues 4, 5 and beyond.
Thailog's currently slated to appear in issues #3-9... beyond that I'm not talking. But, yes, I find the question fascinating.
What im going to asked you is not comic related. Im from argentina and i cant find any website or something that could bring an issue here. But well i was complaining about the same thing a year ago abouth the dvd and i finally manage to get it :D Origynal and all!! :D.
But well, on with my questions:
I was reading the archives and i read something like "Thailog was the most evil of the three.." comparing him with Demona and Macbeth. That got me thinking...
How is that someone can be more evil than a creature who is planing to destroy the human race (wich has some sense. Humans themselves have destroy entire species of animals considering them as dangerous, but thats not the point on these post). If we consider Evil as the capacity of someone to do, willingly and consciously, damage to others, Thailog should hardly be consider more evil than Demona, since both of them are as equal to destroy another sentient been.
But if we consider Evil someone who actually enjoys causing damage and suffering to others, that may change things a bit and thats what brought those questions up.
1- Does Demona enjoy killing humans?
2- Does she see the killing only as something that has to be done?
3- Is it something born only from rage and grief, or does she has a sadic pleasure on killing those who made her life miserable?
4- Can we consider Demona as someoe cruel and that finds actual pleasure on the suffering of others?
5- What would Thailog do that Demona wouldnt even think of? Something that would make him more evil than she is.
Well thanks again for any respons you give me. And i WONT loose my hopes of getting the comic :D (someway somehow).
I think your paraphrase of my quotation (at least out of context) is problematic and thus not quite accurate, but...
1. She thinks she does.
3. All of the above.
4. On occasion.
5. I can't think of a hypothetical example.
You might ask a fellow fan to send you the comics. You can paypal them, perhaps.
I was watching "Double Jeopardy" last night and it reminded me about a question I've wanted to ask for a while. After Thailog puts Elisa, Xanatos, Sevarius, & Goliath in the oil tank, he tells Goliath that he had considered sharing the money with him but decided not to because Goliath had "disappointed him". What exactly disappointed him? I've been looking though the archives and the closest I've come to finding an answer is that Thailog didn't like it when Goliath called him an abomination. I'm sure that Thailog didn't like being called that, but that couldn't have been the main reason for not letting Goliath in on his scheme. There's got to be more to it. I've also wondered if it had to do with Goliath wanting to protect humans, because Thailog does mention something about not wanting to play "guardian angel" to the city. But then I figure that Thailog would've already known this about Goliath in the first place. He was smart enough to set everything up in "Double Jeopardy", wouldn't he be smart enough to do some research on Goliath to find out that protecting people was what he did? And if this is the case, why did Thailog even decide to include Goliath in the money part in the first place? The way I heard it was that he didn't decide until that night that he didn't want to share the money. So, why did he change his mind about Goliath?
Thank you for your time and your answer.
I'd say Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog, "Abomination" and all was plenty of reason.
But you also can't take everything Thailog says at face value.
Who came up with the idea for the Paris scheme against Macbeth? Thailog or Demona?
Since Thailog is the clone of Xanatos, which would also imply that he has some human DNA, then does that mean that he doesn't turn into stone like Goliath since Xanatos's DNA would probably prevent that?
Thailog is NOT the clone of Xanatos, he's the clone of Goliath. Xanatos EDUCATED him to Xanatos' way of looking at the world. But there is no human biological component in Thailog.
It's me! (Giggles, chuckles and many guffaws.)
How are you? I have some questions about Thailog and....yah...
1.(WHY WONT THE STUPID TAB BUTTON WORK!!!) Uh....anyway, How dose Thailog view Alexander? Dose he consider him a 'brother'?
2. How dose Thailog view his own creation? I'm asking this because of the Justice Leauge clone Galatea. She thought hse had to prove her 'own existance' to everyone by destroying super girl. Dose Thailog feel the same way about Goliath and Xanatose?
1. It will be interesting to see.
2. I think Thailog may be over the notion (assuming he ever really subscribed to it and wasn't just play-acting) that he needs to destroy Goliath, Xanatos and Sevarius. We've already seen him working with Anton. And I think, like David, he'd view killing Goliath and David as too wasteful.
<<Well, let's start with the "buffet"/game-playing writing style. I think it's awful. >>
<<Having said that, I have this friend, a garg fan who's now a pretty darn successful writer. When I read her first book, I felt that the first half of it was written in that way. As if rolls of the dice determined who each character was, what he or she could do and what happenned to them.
When I asked her about it, she confessed (if that's the word) that I was dead on. The first half of the book was her almost literally setting to prose a game of D&D that she had played.
I don't recommend doing that, but look at the result. The second half of the novel, inspired as it was by the first half, was wonderful. And she's moved forward with these characters into other books as well. >>
When I indicated that I thought this game-players writing style could be exploited profitably, I wasn't really thinking of more mature, conventional writing emerging from it. Although, that obviouly works too. I was thinking, if you were writing something, for instance, where there was a consistent theme of game-playing, then maybe you could exploit it as a device. I'm thinking of game-playing themes more along the lines of George Perec than dungeons and dragons. So maybe there would be subtle games embedded in the text. But at the same time, maybe there could be a section of the book, or a certain character, which you treat in the game-players writing style. Sort of in the way you could mimic the writing style of the Victorians. I have given no serious thought to what properties make game-player writing read the way it does. But it _is_ recognizable. You've identified it, yourself.
<<But your second question is more serious. Does this process in fact impair the reader/audience. Forget that some of these guys will never be great writers, will this make them bad readers?
I don't know. But my guess is that it's the same (or similar) percentage of people who would have been bad readers in the first place. The good ones will transcend. The others won't. That's my hypothesis.>>
I suppose so. It's just that I keep on detecting subtle trends in the way people in our culture think about things. And I worry this game-players thing will worsen. It's like that business of an incomplete idea of "sentience" invading popular culture. It seems ridiculous to speculate that the idea migrated into the culture from star trek, but if you observe carefully, you can see it. I think people in our culture, are less and less informed by critical thinking today.
Ten years ago, for instance, I don't think I saw game-player writing anywhere. Now, even before this conversation I had, in which we began to put a name to this thing, it seems pervasive. I think the novelty has become the institution. Consider that twenty years ago, aspiring authors could not have seen this in literature. Today, I have waking nightmares that the kid who would have been the next Paul Auster is going to become intellectually deranged when he picks up a dungeons/dragons book for the first time and gets the idea that "this must be how people write."
I'm probably thinking of something along the lines of memes here. Ideas enter the culture and become dominant over time. Usually, stupid ideas. They begin to define the way that people think about things and even the way they value things. It doesn't just erode our intellects. It can erode sensible ethics. Consider this...
I saw an episode of star trek recently, and it really alarmed me. The premise was that the characters travel to a planet where the human population reproduces exclusively by cloning. For some ridiculous reason they could no longer continue cloning themselves, so they ask the characters to donate genetic material so their culture can survive. The characters hostility to the idea is so irrational that I wouldn't know how to describe it. And when the clone people sneak away some of their genetic material to make clones of them anyway, a demonstration of some of the most demented rationalization of science fiction occurs.
The characters go to the lab where their clones have already developed into full grown reproductions of themselves, and use their death rays to obliterate them. And I should be clear that these were not blastocysts in test tubes. These were obviously fully grown and autonomous people. And this is all treated by the authors as though it were the most natural thing in the world. It's simply understood that being cloned "diminishes you" as a human being, and that their absurd indignation was somehow righteous. Precisely how this diminishes a person is never elaborated upon, and I'm sure that the authors never even thought about it. They assume, with remarkable vacuousness, that the cloned people in the lab do not possess any type of intrinsic worth. I know that star trek authors have never picked up a science text, but the poverty of ethical thinking here, compelled me to think they had never read a book or had a thought about anything.
Of course, it's just a silly TV show. Right?
And yet, it's conspicuous that the range public debate about bioethics is defined by these concepts. I'm not talking about the range of debate in the literature of science or philosophy. That remains very isolated from the public forums where most people in our culture consider these issues. In popular magazines and network news journalism, the dominant logic is that a person is rendered somehow, "lesser" by having been cloned. The idea has been in ascendancy for a decade despite the depth of it's ignorance. The people who define and limit public discourse about it have certainly never thought about it critically. Their positions frequently contradict themselves and more frequenly rely on popular myths and emotional appeals to people's superstitions.
And it gets worse. Something far more sinister has emerged from popular, misinformed dialogue about cloning. In popular disputes about it (I heard the notion resurface on CNN about a month ago) the question of "what kind of rights would a clone have" is routinely brandished about as though it were an intelligent thought. To practicing ethicists and scientists, this notion probably would not have even entered the dialogue if it had not been thrust upon them by popular culture. That the question is being asked at all assumes, uncritically, that there is something meaningfully distinguishable about a cloned person which would compel us to assign a different worth to them. A worth, lesser than a person who came into the world by conventional means.
I have a suspicion, that the people most vocally shrieking about the moral dilemmas of cloning, are actually theologically threatened by it. I have no evidence of this. But a few inferences they have made, have got me thinking that their theological picture of "personhood" follows a very rigid prescription, and their indignation may originate with some inept idea that a clone would not have a soul.
"Soul" becomes a good parallel to "sentient life." One is from religion and one is from science fiction, but both of them are shortcuts people use instead of actually thinking about the internal properties that imbue something with intrinsic moral worth.
I hope it's apparent why I think this is important. Magical thinking can be dangerous. The worth of a being can't reasonably be described in these terms. If the distinction between ruling class and underclass or the difference between pets and meat is being determined by distinguishing one as sentient or soul-containing, then we have not really distinguished anything. We're just making things up. We might as well assign moral worth based upon who has stars on their bellies.
I don't remember what Goliath's reaction to Thailog was precisely. I remember that he was alarmed by the prospect of there being another version of himself. How would you describe his feelings about the issue. I suspect since he would have no concept of cloning technology, his perception of it would be unique.
Goliath's initial reaction was horror and anger. Not at the clone per se, but at Xanatos for having stolen something -- Goliath's uniqueness as an individual, at least. I think that's a legitimate fear (not a rational, ethical response). And certainly, there's no ethical justification for Xanatos' actions.
But as Elisa shortly points out, it's too late to simply be pissed at Xanatos. The clone, Thailog, exists. He's alive. As much a Gargoyle as Goliath is. In a very real way, he is Goliath's son. Goliath quickly agrees. (Of course, by this time, he's already pissed off Thailog -- a victim of nurture as opposed to nature -- and there will be no reconciliation.)
Look, let's take the Star Trek episode you described. I've seen it, though it's been years, so I'm going to have to rely on your version of it.
I think it's completely legitimate to have reservations about loaning your genetic material so that they can make clones of you. It's legitimate to be generous too, but you must acknowledge that it must be a personal decision.
A friend once hinted that she'd like me to donate sperm so that she could have a baby. I truly believe that this person would make a great parent, but it's just not in me to help in this way. Mostly because I know how I feel about my own kids. And the knowledge that there was another child of mine out there and not part of my life would drive me nuts.
So I buy into Riker, et al, rejecting the request from the Clone-Society. It MUST be a personal choice. Also, medically -- by the rules they set up/made up -- the point was made that cloning would always be a stopgap solution. So there's a certain pointlessness to participating. But whatever. You MUST have the right to say no. Goliath should be able to say no to Xanatos.... "Thanks, David, but I don't really want a clone of me out there, particularly since I don't trust your parenting skills."
Now of course, what I believe your really objecting to is Riker and company killing living viable beings... and of course Elisa, Goliath and I would totally agree with you. If the clones are completed, the clones are completed. That's that. They're alive. TOO LATE!!!!
Now, there's another Riker episode where he discovers that he has a clone -- in fact it becomes unclear which is the clone and which is the real Riker (i.e. the guy we've known all these years, or the guy that's been trapped on a distant planet for years). Both wind up surviving, which I thought was novel. The "clone" later became somewhat Xanatosian, which I also appreciated.
But to take your argument to something more general than cloning... I mean you need to keep in mind that when cloning is used in SF (or at least good SF) it's just a metaphor. Clones are regarded as second class citizens because the history of humanity is rife with second class citizens based on criteria equally as dopey.
Now, agreed some SF doesn't get it.
And, agreed, now that actual cloning is becoming closer to actual reality, people may be adopting the jargon of SF because -- what else do they have?
But lazy thinkers have ALWAYS existed. On bad days I certainly think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but if I'm being more honest, I can't exactly look back on the world and go : "HEY, NO PROGRESS!" There's been a lot of progress. We'll never wipe out ethics-free humans. Ethically, well, we're just not allowed to.
The memes you discuss may be a problem. But they're just replacing old memes that are even more devastating because they're WAY TOO REAL.
It's another old Sci-Fi notion... In a very real way, wouldn't it be great if the ALIENS did attack. Because then FINALLY, humanity would realize how little differentiates black from white, male from female, gay from straight, etc., ad nauseum. Of course, that would immediately present us with the new racial challenge of learning to "just get along" with the aliens. But wouldn't it be nice for just a moment to get past the pettiness that we own ourselves?
Or something like that.
Please answer me something thats been going on between me and a friend... what is Thailog's colouring? I'm certain its blue because ive got all the episodes but so does my friend and she says he's purple. Pleaseeeee settle this matter?!
I'm color blind and blue/purple is my biggest issue. But there are tons of fans who could answer this question for you.
Ding Dong the queue is dead, well wounded anyway. I Know this is late but the asking function was closed down before I could post it and I've been awful busy lately. A well here it is.
I was interested to learn you had planned to use a Quasimodo character originally since Quasi is kind of a Gargoyle himself. I wonder if Quasi existed in the Gargoyle Universe, hey if you can have J.V.
I also was kind of disappointed you didn't give Demona's alter ego an angel themed name like Angelique like you planned in your memo. Would've made a great parallel with Angela and created another of those cool name parallels like Peter Maza and Petros Xanatos or Alexander Xanatos and Alexander
Speaking of thailog I have something to tell you that I think you'll like. When these episodes were first being aired on Disney Channel UK they seriously aired them out of order, skipping over most of the episodes between "City of Stone" and "Avolon" as well as a few pre-CoS episodes. They actually aired half the world tour before "Avolon" and even that before "Eye of The Beholder"! Luckily they sorted it out for the reruns but the point is that when I first saw "Sanctuary" I had not yet seen "Double Jeopardy" and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of this episode one bit. Sure there was some initial confusion over this Goliath look-alike (I thought at first that Thailog's "no way to treat a lady" line was Goliath's) but once the word clone popped up I immediately went "now I get it". More reason to believe that new viewers can get into "Gargoyles". In fact I think the World Tour was good at bring new viewers in, the episodes were much more stand alone
That is good news. Thanks for telling me that.
We made a conscious decision not to use Angelique. Dominique just seemed more like the kind of name Demona would choose for herself.
What episodes was Faloog in? (Not sure if I spelled that correctly, Goliath's clone). He was really cool, but I was only able to catch the first time he appeared.
Thailog was introduced in "Double Jeopardy". He next appeared in "Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning". "Thailog Shock Troops" appeared in "Future Tense", but they were just Puck's creations, used to fool Goliath. Thailog also appeared in some episode of Goliath Chronicles, but I can't remember the name.
Completely out of left feild...
I've heard you worked on Darkwing Duck, and you've said many times that Thailog's coloring was in part based on Negaduck's costume. Now, I'm likely the only gargfan who has ever dressed up as Darkwing Duck for Halloween(in the eighth grade, btw, and I'm a girl), so I hope a few off topic (well, off gargoyle) questions won't bug you too much.
What did you do while working on Darkwing? Do you have any standout memories from that show? Or any favorite characters? I'm guessing you wrote-- which episodes did you work on?
Thanks for reading! I wish I were going to the Gathering this year, but I'm using my savings to start my own business instead-- that way I'll be able to make it to G2K3 in New York without emptying my penny jar. The L.A. con ROCKED, and I regret missing out this year. My siblings, however, are going, and have been instructed to videotape everything for me. (So if anyone sees Blondewookiee or The Souldier without a camera, remind them I'm pining away at home!)
And in the spirit of guessing when you'll read this... Happy New Year! (Am I right?)
Nope. Again, closer to Valentine's day -- plus a year.
Hope to see you at the Montreal Gathering this summer ('04).
I helped Tad Stones develop Darkwing Duck, helped him staff up his writing staff and gave story notes on episodes. I was an executive at that time. I didn't write any episodes.
But did I really say that Thailog was based on Negaduck's coloring? Cuz I don't recall saying that or that being the case. Maybe someone else made the connection?
Thailog's coloring was actually more inspired by the Fantastic Four's costume change as perpetrated by John Byrne in the Eighties.
Who is the Gargoyles Arch Nemisis?
There isn't just one: Xanatos, Demona and Thailog all come immediately to mind. But I never tried to limit the possibilities.
In the notes that you recently printed for "Double Jeopardy", you mentioned in the outline, just after Thailog emerges from his box for the first time in front of Sevarius and his mercenaries, that this is the last time in the series that we would be seeing that particular band of mercenaries. Was there something ominous intended about this statement - as in, hinting at just what happened to them after Thailog got out?
I don't think I could be any less subtle, frankly. Use your imagination.
The (currently) new ramble! Here's my own (which I also posted in the Comment Room).
After watching the "Previously..." recap and hearing Sevarius' mention about cloning, and then seeing the title, I pretty much figured out what the episode was going to be about. Consequently, I kind of knew that the gargoyle on the battlements at Xanatos' place wasn't really Goliath. Still, I was not quite prepared for Thailog, but we'll get to him later on.
The prologue is well written, and does fit in well with the established continuity...except for the date it's given in the computer files. Even allowing that Xanatos did not get released from prison until after Oct. 31, when did Elisa get shot, and how long before she was able to walk on crutches? Still, I'm willing to let it slide. Besides, it was cool how Goliath smashed the robot's head (you can see the red eye-bulb pop out).
The coloring error you saw, Greg, concerning Thailog's arm in the attack on Lex and Broadway, seems to have been corrected in later airings (at least it's black on my tape).
That was one thing that surprised me--seeing the flash in Elisa's windshield NOT being a copy of Goliath, but something with black skin, red eyes, and a white something (hair of course, but I only saw a glimpse).
I was curious as to what Sevarius was doing with the mercenaries, and why he seemed to be stealing from his employer. I think I may have decided to wait until the end to draw any conclusions.
When Owen mentioned the Emir, I remembered THE EDGE. I didn't expect the dude to actually show up in the series (I was still a bit naive (sp?)), and instead thought more along the lines that this would be a running gag in the series. A sort of background business thing that Xanatos would always be dealing with.
It is interesting to see Xanatos in a semi-vengeful attitude. It's just something you're not used to seeing from this guy. I liked hearing the list of his "enemies" for some strange reason. Just nice to know that Xanatos isn't so untouchable.
And Owen even gets to make a couple of digs at Xanatos--not just the one at the end, but the "plan you've neglected to mention" and cryptically referring to Xanatos Enterprises as "a certain large consortium" (sp?).
Even though Goliath laughed maniacally well-enough in ENTER MACBETH, I still got a kick out of Hudson's line. A little nod to the fact that Goliath has a tendency to be...stoic, perhaps.
And then we get another glimpse at Thailog. And he actually managed to look scarier than Goliath, IMHO. Not a bad trick. I hadn't thought until reading the memo that something...unpleasant may have happend to the mercenaries here. This new thought rather intrigues me (in a morbid sort of way).
The Gen-U-Tech traking bracelet makes a reappearance. Gotta love continuity.
Seeing the electronic log of Thailog's creation proved to be quite fascinating for me. Mostly because of the mention of "accelerating (sp?) the normally slow gargoyle growth process." I liked the added explanation here and the nod towards the coloring change. On the whole, it made everything easier to except, and allowed me to sit back and have fun watching the episode develop.
Like many folks, I loved the whole Xanatos-Sevarius confrontation. Neither is really aware of what the other is thinking, but believes they are. And when Sevarius started to cut loose (and then undercut it with the whispered question of his quality of performance) I laughed out loud. That and the look on Xanatos' face are still amusing (vengeful, confused...you see a lot of sides to Xanatos that you normally don't in this episode).
When Goliath finally meets Thailog...I did not expect Thailog to turn out quite the villain he was, despite knowing that he learned everything from Xanatos. Consequently, I was not expecting him to jump Goliath like that. But this made him a lot of fun. And I love the way Thailog sort of hisses out the "s" at the end of "All the old blocks."
When Thailog is talking to Xanatos and Sevarius in the hold of the oil rig, there is a loop of repeated animation that is very noticeable. The odd thing is, the lips actually remain more-or-less in sync with the dialogue.
I love Thailog's lines here. "And waste my life playing 'guardian angel' night after night to a decrepit city, infested with inferior humans?" Just his choice of words says a lot about this guy's outlook on the world. And to this day I keep playing his other line to Goliath in my head from time to time: "I considered caring about you. It took some effort, but I arranged for you to join this party because I planned to share the money with you. But our little...'family reunion' disappointed me, *father*! So I've decided to *hate* you, too." I just love how that throws some of the blame for what happens on Goliath. Man, with this and OUTFOXED, Goliath's been faced with a lot of his shortcomings.
I had no problem with Elisa slipping out of the manacles. I mean, those things weren't like police cuffs that could close in diameter to conform to a prisoner's wrists. Besides, Xanatos' comment was rather fun.
Actually, there were a lot of fun lines in this sequence, and the episode as a whole (of course, they've already been pointed out, so...).
I get a strange kick out of the fact that it's Sevarius who picks up on the idea that could save them all. It's always fun when the villains and heroes wind up on the same side for some reason.
Something I find very interesting whenever I watch this episode: when Elisa and Xanatos think Goliath might be dead, Xanatos actually moves to comfort Elisa! It's just endlessly fascinating to me that in a potential moment of loss, the proferred shoulder to cry on comes from the antagonist. That's one great thing about this series, character was never subverted for the sake of conforming to traditional "roles."
I actually did think that Thailog had died in the fire. I of course would have regretted it--he was a great character, and Keith David's mannerisms were so distinct from Goliath's that I half-wondered if maybe Thailog was voiced by someone else (a thought I had also had concerning Jim Cummings' differnt sound as Darkwing and Negaduck). However, it wasn't until the "reverse-Xanatos tag" that Thailog took an even greater leap upward in my estimation. Learning that Thailog probably survived and was (in Owen's words) "still out there, has the money, is as powerful as Goliath...and smarter than [Xanatos]." That was one of those "shock" moments, and immediately followed up by "Owen, I think I've created a monster." It felt to me like not only had a new villain been unleashed upon the world, but one greater than any that had come before. I actually like seeing the image of Thailog laughing (although recently, I've wondered what the effect would be if his transparent-face suffused the whole screen).
Rambling on Thailog for a moment--it was great how he moved beyond the stereotypical "evil twin" bit. Although his contrast with Goliath is a very compelling aspect of him, he is not confined to that one dimension. He has the tics that are very much his own, and he manages to assert his independence even more when he takes to wearing the armor.
I know, Greg, that you feel every villain should seem, in "that particular encounter" the hero's unltimate enemy. Still, I can't help but feel that the true rank of "archfiend" seems made for the likes of Thailog.
This is another one of those episodes I really enjoy!
My plans for Season Three would have had Thailog really emerge as the Gargoyles primary antagonist. I really wanted to give him a chance to come into his own. Still do.
As you know, Keith, of course, DID perform both roles. In fact his talent was one of the main inspirations for doing Thailog in the first place.
You had questions. Maybe this will clear some of them up. Then again, maybe not.
Friday, October 28th, 1994
Xanatos may anticipate being released by October 31st, the date of his coming pre-trial appearance. [NOTE: The calendar in Xanatos' cell matches neither 1994 nor 1995. It may not even be his.]
Monday, October 31st, 1994
In part, ironically, because both Xanatos and Elisa wish to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos' lawyers and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of receiving stolen property. He is sentenced to six months, including time served, with every possibility that the sentence will be reduced in three months for good behavior.
Tuesday, November 15th, 1994
Owen acquires a DNA sample from Goliath.
Friday, November 18th, 1994
Elisa is shot.
Tuesday, January 3rd, 1995
Elisa is on crutches when Macbeth first attacks castle.
Wednesday, January 4th, 1995
Xanatos is released from prison. Goes home to the castle first. And then stops by Gen-U-Tech.
Hope that helps.
Yay! A new episode ramble! Thanks, Greg!
Here are some of my own thoughts about "Double Jeopardy".
The opening one is a rather odd little memory. In the summer of 1995, I spotted an article on "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine (whose name I can no longer remember) discussing what would be done in Season Two; among other things, it included a mention that Goliath's daughter would be introduced into the series. I was quite curious about that, and wondered what she'd be like and how it would be done. And then, when "Double Jeopardy" first aired, and Thailog was treated as Goliath's son in it, I wondered if the article had erred and gotten the gender of Goliath's offspring wrong. (Of course, I know now that it was Angela that the article meant, not Thailog, so that there was no mistake there except on my part.)
In light of the opening flashback, Xanatos must have already started building a whole new set of Steel Clan robots even while he was still in prison, before "The Edge" (especially given that I spotted a whole bunch of those robots in storage, alongside the one that was activated to attack Goliath).
I also liked Owen's "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?" line. He really sounded hurt there.
I was interested to notice Renard on Xanatos's suspects list for Thailog's kidnapping, alongside Demona and Macbeth. While I can easily imagine Demona or Macbeth being willing to engage in such a maneuver against Xanatos, I doubt, in light of his rigid code of integrity, that Renard would have done the same (although there is "Golem" to consider, coming up later in the season). Maybe Xanatos believed that the temptation of kidnapping his new gargoyle would have been too much for even his father-in-law to resist.
Sevarius's hamming it up with Xanatos ("Yes! You robbed me of my creation!") was one of the funniest moments in "Gargoyles" for me; certainly the funniest in the episode. (Don't quit your day job, Anton.) And I agree with you about the Dr. Antinori business, by the way. (Also on the subject of Sevarius's overacting, I couldn't help but think that some of his narration in the "clone files" that Lex and Broadway discovered felt almost like a parody of that in a nature documentary, such as the "time for it to leave the nest" line, though I don't know if it was intended that way.)
You no doubt recall how I'd earlier pointed out the similarities between Thailog and Edmund (which I first began to notice after you mentioned Edmund being your favorite Shakespeare character); it occurred to me recently that Thailog also does have a certain similarity to Mordred, especially in many modern-day versions of the Arthurian legend, such as T. H. White. He's Goliath's "illegitimate son", just as Mordred was Arthur's, and his training by his other two fathers, Xanatos and Sevarius, does have (if you're out looking for the parallels) a certain echo of how Mordred, in White's "The Once and Future King", similarly gets trained by his mother Morgause. And the dynamics between Goliath and Thailog, with Goliath initially rejecting his son but then learning that he was wrong to do so, and now reaching out to him - but too late - do remind me of how in White, Arthur similarly initially moves against his son (trying to drown him at birth), but then understands that he was wrong to do so, also makes the attempt to reach out to him, but is coldly rejected by Mordred when he does so. (Come to think of it, Thailog also clearly lusts after both of Goliath's loves, Demona and Elisa, even to the point of combining them in Delilah, just as Mordred lusts after his stepmother Guinevere and attempts to wed her after he usurps his father's throne.)
I've mentioned before the element that I believe makes Thailog an especially great antagonist (the incongruous pairing of Goliath's physical appearance and voice with a thoroughly Xanatosian amorality - though I think that Thailog comes across as more malevolent than Xanatos does, which is also a good touch), so I won't go into that again. It's a bit of a pity that he only turned up twice more in the original series after that ("Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning"), although I suppose that if you'd gotten to do more episodes past "The Journey" that we'd have gotten a lot more of the guy.
The ending definitely surprised me; I was expecting Xanatos to reveal that he'd seen to it that he didn't lose the ransom money after all, but instead we got the revelation that Thailog had escaped with it and is out there, happily scheming away, to Xanatos's own alarm. (As I mentioned before, it's particularly of interest to note that this is the last time in the series that Xanatos attempts to make his own gargoyles - and after the way that Thailog backfired on him, who can blame him?)
It's great to have the rambles going again, and I'm looking forward to the ones to come.
I'm afraid we haven't made that much Ramble progress recently, though I know we got past Avalon and into (at least) the beginning of the World Tour.
I think, like your Edmund comparison, your comparison of Thailog to Mordred is very apt. Perhaps moreso. Another bastard, basically. I'm not sure how conscious I was of any of these individuals influences, but I'm fascinated with the archetype of "The Bastard" in literature. Both the quote/unquote good guys (like Theseus, Arthur, Dunois, etc.) and the quote/unquote bad guys (like Edmund and Mordred, etc.) Thailog with his three fathers was clearly designed to be our bastard. And what a great bastard he is.
I've certainly read White's ONCE AND FUTURE KING at least a couple times. And I've lost count how many times I've seen CAMELOT.
Hi Greg. Long-winded question, so bear with me.
One of the recurring themes of Western story-telling is that those who "tamper in God's domain", to borrow a phrase, will be struck down for their hubris. After the enterance of Frankenstein into our collective consciousness, one of the "rules" for Western literature is that Frankenstein must always be destroyed by his monster, for his arrogance in playing god.
The reason I bring this up, is that Xanatos is a man who seems to like playing god. And he has left a trail of monsters in his wake.
I'll ignore Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf for the purposes of this question, since it could be argued that they were already monsters who merely allowed their exteriors to be altered to match their true natures. (Although, it could also be argued that those three were tempted by David and his offers of power and vengeance, but at the end of the day, I still think they all damned themselves willingly)
I'd go so far as to even ignore the mutates, because even though they become monsterous looking, they really don't fit the bill as "monsters". They're just ordinary people who, by virtue of making some bad character judgements, find themselves with fur and wings. (Although it probably doesn't help Xanatos' karma any)
But even ignoring those two examples, you still have...
1. Coldstone. Such an obvious Frankenstein archtype that you joked about it. (The "It's alive! ALLLLLLLIVE!" sequence remains one of my favorites from the whole show) Of course, you could lay Coldstone at least partially at Demona's feet as well, so we'll move on.
2. Thailog. Grown in a lab, created with a mixture of different people, (Goliath's body and temper, Xanatos' mind and ethics, Sevarius'... libedo? Whatever accounts for Delilah) he turns almost immediately on his "fathers" You could call Thailog Sevarius' creature rather then Xanatos' except that David is the force behind his creation, and that Anton, for all his mad scientist posturing, could be seen as no more then a lab assistant, an Igor to David's Dr. Frankenstein.
3. The Coyote robot series. Xanatos' most personal "creature", the one to whom he gave his face (well, half of it) and voice. Loyal (?) to David for now, but unless forming the Ultrapack is David's idea, he presumably goes indepentant eventually. That, and we know he sets his sights on galactic domination in 2198, presumably not with his creator's blessing. (Then again, I could be wrong)
4. The Matrix. Created so that David and Fox could reshape the entire planet at their whim. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. Admittedly, I don't think it's becoming sentient along the way was part of the plan, and it's inclusion here might be a bit of a stretch, but I thought it was an example of Xanatos' hubris, if nothing else.
So, I guess, after all that lead up, my question is this: Would the pattern hold true? Would one (or all) of Xanatos' "creatures" come back to bite him in the ass later? As Elisa said "I wouldn't want Xanatos' karma."
There is a second part to this question, but I'll submit it separately, in case it's viewed as an idea.
Well, for starters, I'd argue your premise. Victor Frankenstein's life was certainly decimated by the monster he created and abandoned -- but he survived the experience, sadder and hopefully wiser.
Moreover, it was the abandonment that was his true sin in Mary Shelley's original work. The creation was certainly hybris. But Shelley is pretty darn clear that she viewed the abandonment as worse. And I tend to agree. It's nature vs. nurture. The creature wasn't created evil. He was driven to it.
As to X's karma and whether it will all come back to bite him in the ass, I think the answer is clearly yes. But I really see it as a separate question. That is, it is a karma question more than simply a playing god question. That's one element. But only one. After all, one might argue that David and Fox were playing god by bringing Alexander into the world. But I wouldn't argue that. And I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
So let's go through the numbers.
I tend to agree that Wolf, Hyena and Jackal built their own cages. And for the record, seem quite happy to live in them.
The Mutates seem to be following the same path as the gargoyles themselves. That is to say, that Xanatos woke the gargoyles, and has often suffered for it since. He then turned these four humans into mutates, and has had to suffer a bit (though admittedly not much) for that. It will be interesting to see Talon's post-Hunter's Moon reaction to Goliath and Co. moving back into the Castle. But the larger truth is that Talon, Maggie and Claw are making lives for themselves.
1. Coldstone. Well, yeah, duh. This is our Frankenstein's monster. But as with most things, Xanatos is too smart to truly follow in Victor's footsteps. He helps create the creature -- and certainly uses it -- but he never simply abandons it. And he also tries to balance (or bury) the Karmic scales, by helping out with Coldstone's Multiple Personality Disorder and by building Coldsteel and Coldfire.
2. Thailog. Here's the big threat, frankly. A guy with something to prove and three fathers to prove it all to. I think Xanatos hasn't seen the last of Thailog. One could argue that Thailog is the only guy to ever beat Xanatos at his own game (in Double Jeopardy). So the hybris of creating him has already bitten X's ass. But I doubt Thailog is through.
3. Coyote... I just don't want to reveal too much on this right now. Sorry.
4. I really think you have to chalk Matrix up to Fox's hybris (and competitive spirit) rather than to David's. She was certainly having the Matrix engineered for her and her man, but that doesn't mean that Xanatos was behind it. That would assume that she cannot operate independently. And I sure as heck wouldn't assume that about her.
So the short answer: yes. But it's all very nuanced.
How can Thailog and the Clones be cured of the clone virus when they're solid stone, and incapable of intraveneous injection? If science is a kind of magic, as Titania mentions in 'The Gathering' two-parter, no mage could meddle with it.
1. Don't take what Titania said too literally. She was making an analogy, not writing a treatise.
2. Keep in mind, you're talking Goliath Chronicles.
Since Coyote was given artificial intelligence with Xanatos's personality and Thailog was given Xanatos's slant on the world:
1)How does Coyote view Thailog?
If you ask which version of Coyote, I am referring to all the versions of Coyote that know about Thailog and his origins.
2)How does Thailog view Coyote?
I am referring to every version of Coyote that Thailog is aware of.
I don't know exactly HOW artificially intelligent Coyote is through his first four appearances. He has certain pre-programmed responses, which certainly make him appear clever, and he is fairly sophisticated, but I'm not sure I'd label him as artificially intelligent, as the term is usually defined. Compare Matrix, for example.
1. I don't even know if Coyote has info on Thailog. I guess Xanatos would plan a contingency in case Thailog were to appear during one of Coyote's operations. But again, I don't think the Coyote you saw THINKS.
2. As a tinker toy that might some day be of some use.
I realize that this is a very forward question, but I tried my best to put it as respectable as possible. Demona and Thailog seemed to have a very close relationship. Did they ever mate?
If you're asking if they ever had sex, then the answer is yes.
Or as they would say, "None of your damn business! Now, DIE!!"
This isn't really a question, but rather a corrective comment.
Obviously Goliath wouldn't know, but I don't know about you, but Thailog is NOT Goliath's son. They are brothers. Until I went to a genetics seminar with my AP bio class, this would never have crossed my mind.
Anyway, to the point. The reason Thailog can't be Goliath's son is because of genetics. Thailog's genes came from Goliath, which in turn came from Goliaths parents. Now, therefore, technically Thailog has the same parents as Goliath (since all his chormosomes can be traced back through Goliath's parents).
There's more to it that, but I wanted to keep it it terms understandable. Another simpler way to make the argument is that since Thatilog has the same genes as Goliath, they're sort of like identical twins, born years apart (and of course identical twins are siblings of each other). It's the same with the labrynth clones as well, they are bothers of the gargs they were cloned from.
Delilah is a whole different story. I can't explain that one, but i guess she's a half sister to both Elisa and Demona, but I can't prove it genetically.
Sorry if I seemed to have a "you're wrong, I'm right" attitude, but I just wanted to let you know what the real world truth was. Now Gargoyles Universe truth, well, I can't tell you what's right and wrong, that's for you to decide.
Thanx for listening to my lecture :)
Actually, I found this post very interesting and informative. It doesn't change the emotional reality of how Thailog and Goliath feel about each other. But it's good to know. And I appreciate -- greatly -- that you weren't trying to make me look foolish, just filling me in on an obvious gap in my knowledge.
It's over a year since you posted this, so I don't have any idea if you're still hanging around. But Thank You, Artemis. It is appreciated.
Time to ramble...
This episode was directed by Dennis Woodyard, written and story edited by Cary Bates.
The one word title, as usual, was one of mine. I thought initially that we'd be even more focused on the Cathedral. That we might play a Quasimodo character. Heck, if Disney's "Hunchback" movie was going to have living gargoyles bouncing around, then I could have a Quasimodo swinging from the bell-ropes.
But the story, thank goodness, rightly evolved into a family drama with Goliath, Elisa, Angela, Demona, Macbeth and Thailog (and Bronx) providing us with one very ODD family. Quasimodo went away in favor of Thailog.
And we had to work a bit to make sure the thematic idea of the heart as a Sanctuary worked its way into the picture. Thank God for that French minister, eh?
During the "Previously..." recap the following exchange was heard between my eight year old daughter Erin and my five year old son Ben, after Angela learns (in that scene from "Monsters") that Goliath is her biological father:
Benny: He IS her father. He laid the egg.
Erin: Girls lay eggs.
Benny: His wife laid the egg.
Enter, for the third time or the first (or, depending on your point of view, maybe this one doesn't count either), Ms. Dominique Destine. She tells Mac, "We have all the time in the world..."
This for me (and I know for Bond expert Cary) was a very memorable line from "On Her Majesty's Secret Service." And always a good sign that a relationship is going to come to a bad end.
Elisa tips her hand, which she can do cuz no one is awake, about how she really feels about Goliath here. "The most romantic city in the world and Goliath isn't awake to share it with me." (Or something like that, all quotations are approximate.) That's what she'd like to do, I'd wager. Soar over Paris with G. the way they soared over Manhattan in "Awakenings". Now had he been awake, do you think she would have made that request? Or would she in fact be distancing herself from him simply BECAUSE she had that impulse?
After her adventure on the Loch, it's nice to see Margot on a pleasant little stroll through Paris.
THE GARGOYLE WAY
Why is Goliath so resistant to parenting Angela? After all, though they're really more like younger brothers, he does his fair share of parenting the Trio.
He falls back on "The Gargoyle Way", but that's certainly inadequate, as Diane Maza will later point out. Yes, he's only one of her rookery fathers, but he's (a) the only one there and (b) the only one left alive except for the two souls trapped inside the AWOL Coldstone.
Ultimately, I think the answer is that Angela's sudden obssession with her "BIOLOGICAL" parentage makes him nervous because of the obvious extrapolation to what comes next. If she's obssessed with me as Daddy, then what happens when she learns who Mommy is?
And that's the key. He's divorced Demona. His wife who laid the egg. It took centuries and months, but after "Vows" he moved on. Now he sees Demona as a nemesis. A painful one to be sure, but a nemesis none the less. He's afraid of what the knowledge will do to Angela. He's afraid of what Demona will do with Angela, should Angela share that knowledge. And is he perhaps afraid of what -- under Demona's influence -- Angela might become?
There's some nice animation in this episode -- but none of it is at Notre Dame. That sequence put us through fits in retakes and editing. Ugghh. It's still painful to look at.
But there's some nice stuff going on...
Demona says: "In here my love." to Goliath before she realizes its not Thailog. What did you all think of that line? At this point we had only seen one silhouetted monster from a distance. And since you knew Demona was in town, we intentionally tried to lead you to belive that she was the Monster at Notre Dame. Were you expecting Thailog? Or did you think that Demona was addressing G as 'my love'?
Goliath's arrival is a shock to her, so what did you think then?
Then Thailog's arrival is supposed to be a bigger shock to you guys. Was it?
I love hearing Thailog say: "My angel of the night."
Demona has a good line too: "Jealous and paranoid."
Later, we set up Nightstone Unlimited and their two "human" identities, Alexander Thailog and Dominique Destine.
At this point in production, we knew that Fox was going to have a baby but we had not named it yet. I couldn't think of a better first name for Thailog and later I couldn't think of a better first name for Alexander Xanatos. At first this bugged me. But I began to realize it made perfect sense. Xanatos had programmed his "first" son well. If X would pick Alexander, why wouldn't T have picked it as well. And there's something so symmetrical about both his kids being named Alexander.
Elisa sits at a french cafe talking out loud to herself. Ugh. Very awkward. Obviously, we couldn't come up with a solution we liked better. I'm sure it occured to me to do it in voice over, but just chucking a V.O. sequence in the middle of an ep is very awkward too. Suddenly, the movie is POV Elisa, and we weren't doing that here. (Cf. "Revelations" and Matt's VO narration.)
I do like her last line though, coming as it did from a long time Superman scripter, Cary Bates: "This is a job... for the Gargoyles!"
THE WEDDING NIGHT
We had Macbeth use the Lennox Macbeth name instead of Lennox Macduff because we thought it would be too confusing to give him an entirely different name to any new viewers. And it makes sense that he has multiple aliases. But it still bugs me and I think in hindsight, I wish we had just been consistent.
Demona kicks Macbeth into unconsciousness, and Erin asks: "Why didn't she get hurt?"
And that's a very fair question. As usual with D&M's Corsican Brother connection, we tried very hard to be faithful to it, but it was very hard. And we wound up being a bit inconsistent. The best I can suggest is that when Demona knows she's going to hurt M and it isn't just on impulse, she can more or less steel herself against the magical feedback. It's still painful. But she doesn't show it as much.
The Gargoyles wake up and Elisa says: "Look alive, guys!" Well, they do now, don't they?
I love how Thailog slips Mac the gun and then later yells at Demona, "Didn't you search him?!" He's an evil genius that one. And passive-aggressive too.
Thailog's plan is brilliant, I think. So elegant. So simple. And if not for Elisa, so effective.
Mac's suicidal tendencies resurface. Demona's legendary temper gets the better of her common sense.
Thailog really comes into his own in this ep. Sure, Xanatos said he may have created a monster, but now Thailog has outsmarted X, D and M. Who the hell is left to outsmart?
And he has some great lines too:
"You and what clan?"
"Teamwork is so overrated."
"Aren't you spunky?'" (Another Lou Grant reference of course.)
To be fair, he couldn't immediately know that Angela was blood kin, but still doesn't his reaction to her give you the creeps? When X says Angela is lovely in "Cloud Fathers" I don't think anyone thought he was being salacious. But T? Yeah, baby.
Of course, Goliath finally gets the picture after this one. Up to this point, he was thinking Demona's the lost cause but maybe Thailog is salvagable. Now he knows better. At least about T anyway.
There's a lot of water in that water tower. It looks cool though. The animation here makes up for the Cathedral stuff.
I love Goliath's two-handed punch.
I love Demona's punch-drunken sway, as she makes her move to, as Mac says, "put us out of our misery..."
But I've always wondered why the background painters put multiple pictures of Elisa on the wall of Macbeth's chateau. Odd, that.
When I was young, I used to love MASH, particularly back in the Wayne Rogers days. (And, yes, Wayne is a friend of my dad's now. But they didn't know each other back then so I was unbiased.) But one thing that used to drive me nuts was the repetition of the following exchange:
<LOTS OF SHELLING IS ROCKING THE HOSPITAL. SUDDENLY, IT STOPS.>
Hawkeye: Do you hear that?
Someone else: Hear what?
Hawkeye: Silence! The shelling's stopped!
This was fine the first time they used it. By the twentieth time it got VERY old.
But we do a version of it here after Elisa shoots Demona ending the battle.
Why? When it used to drive me nuts? It's amazing what I'll pay tribute too.
KEITH meet MR. DAVID
I love playing Thailog against Goliath, because I love those Thailog/Goliath exchanges where Keith plays both roles. That's one of the main reasons we created Thailog. To enjoy listening to Keith go to town.
Goliath: "She has done you a favor, Macbeth."
That line should be a bit of a shock when G first says it. But it makes a lot of sense after he explains. And I love the look that Goliath and Elisa share. They aren't even pretending they don't share those feelings. They just won't act on them.
And how about Goliath actually telling a joke: "Just make sure you get a good look at her at night." Word.
One of the things I like about our series is we didn't have to end each episode the same way.
This one ends rather darkly. Goliath won't acknowledge the obvious. He just broods. Angela turns to Elisa: "Elisa, I have to know." And Elisa confirms that Demona is Angela's mother, because it's ridiculous to either lie or to not confirm the obvious that Angela has already figured out. But she knows G didn't want A to know that. So everyone is left unhappy as we sail into the fog.
And Erin ends the episode saying: "I think Elisa should be her mother."
(Me, I've always seen them sharing a more sisterly relationship. But I thought Erin's idea was sweet, and certainly came out of the sexual tension between E&G.)
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
In prep for my ramble on Sanctuary, here's my notes to Story Editor/Writer Cary Bates on his first outline for "Sanctuary"...
Notes on "Sanctuary" Outline...
Cary, I'm going to resist the temptation of beating this all out for you. That's how I got so far behind before. And at this stage I doubt I could do it any faster or better than you. So I want you to do a second draft on this outline, addressing ALL of the notes below. I sympathize, in advance. This is a complicated story. But I know we (meaning mostly you) can make it work. Don't take too long. And feel free to call after you've read this. We may be able to work out some of the problems over the phone. Good luck and here goes:
How does the title fit? What is the theme of the story? Is it about feeling safe? Safe in the arms of someone you love? I like that notion, but we'd have to emphasize it a lot more.
And simultaneously, more of the action should be centered around Notre Dame Cathedral. Economically, we can't afford to design backgrounds for an entire city. So we should keep the action focused on a few locations, that climax at the gargoyle covered cathedral-"sanctuary".
Plus, we don't want newspapers to be generically talking about a "mysterious winged creature". We want them focused on the Creature haunting the Cathedral at night. Maybe they think it's someone posing as Quasimodo, or his spirit or maybe they even think it's a gargoyle come to life or something. Of course, it's really Thailog. (Not Demona, by the way.) He's been there since "Double Jeopardy". Arriving long before Demona and Macbeth arrived.
We need to involve Thailog more at the end. Make him part of the conflict. I think he would have upgraded a bit. Used some of that $20 million to armor himself for battle. Not necessarily robotic armor, but at least a chestplate. Maybe wrist and shin guards. Keep in mind, we want him to be more powerful than Goliath and more threatening than any other villain. We should probably arm him with some big high-tech bazooka/laser/cannon type-thing too.
And we don't have to break up Demona and Thailog at the end. We just need to know that Thailog doesn't really care for her.
Remember, Thailog's plan isn't to kill Demona and Macbeth for the sake of killing them. He wants what they have managed to acquire over the last nine hundred years. If he could add that to the fortune he's parlayed from the money he stole from Xanatos, he might be able to compete with Xanatos financially. He needs to have already merged Demona's holdings with his own. So that his corporation (and we should get a cool, evocative name for it) we'll inherit in the case of her demise. And he wants to inherit Macbeth's stuff too. So if Mac and Dierdre marry, and both die together, (which is the only way they can die) he'll get everything.
Now, I'm not pretending this is easy to accomplish. As I read the outline, I was wondering if we needed a maguffin or two to symbolize this wealth. Maybe Macbeth's Paris Mansion itself. But we managed to figure something out for "Outfoxed" that clearly and dynamically spelled out Halcyon and Fox's "financial conflict". We can do the same thing here. With the same clarity.
Does Macbeth plan on telling "Dierdre" the truth about himself?
Is this the first time since Gruoch that Macbeth has been in love? Since he's an immortal has he avoided close relationships, not wanting to outlive his lover? Or watch her grow old? Or has he been through this before? Maybe not often, but once or twice over the last nine hundred years. How did he handle it in the past? Is he doing something different now? Highlander questions, basically.
Is Macbeth afraid for Dierdre's life? Does he think Demona might try to harm Dierdre to get back at him?
Do Goliath, Elisa and Angela assume at first that Macbeth and human Demona are in cahoots and only realize/remember later that since M&D have no memory of anything between City of Stone and Avalon, that Macbeth might not know that this human woman is in fact Demona?
Do we have an opportunity, maybe when Goliath and Elisa are searching Paris for the villains, for them to be romanitcally affected by the City of Lights?
When it's over, instead of Macbeth simply remaining bitter and once again suicidal, could Goliath point out to him that life offers possibilities... that if Macbeth could fall in love with Demona, he could certainly fall in love with someone else? Someone nice who would make his long life worth living again, at least for a time.
A bunch of things, (some of which Cary the Story Editor should have been able to catch from his reading of past scripts, tsk tsk). Some of these notes may be moot after a rewrite of the outline.
Beat 2) Goliath, Elisa and Angela know that Demona and Macbeth left Avalon unconcious and together. Wherever they landed it would also have to be together. (Of course, Goliath and Co. have been travelling for awhile. So there's no guarantee that Macbeth and Demona stayed together after landing wherever they landed. It's just a good bet.)
There's also no reason for Goliath to assume that Macbeth and Demona are involved with each other still. (After all, they hate each other.) Also no reason to assume that Macbeth would be hurt by the association. And though there's no love left between Demona and Goliath, Goliath has no reason to feel sympathy for Macbeth. The audience might. Some of them would know Mac's backstory from City of Stone and sympathyze, but Goliath doesn't know the whole story. And he's got no reason to think more of Macbeth than Demona. Ironically, it is Thailog, more evil than any of the others, who Goliath would have the most sympathy for. He sees Thailog as a victim of poor upbringing. He'd like to reform and rescue his "son".
On the other hand, by this time Goliath believes that they land everywhere for a purpose. If he sees Macbeth and/or Demona, it's not too big a leap for him to figure that whatever the purpose, it involves these villains.
Beat 4) Again, here we'd like the headlines to be more specific to the Cathedral.
Beat 5) Elisa would recognize the human Demona from "High Noon".
Beat 7) We are forcing the creation of a lot of different sets and backgrounds here. Also don't forget that Demona's transformations to gargoyle (and back) are painful. Also don't forget that Macbeth feels any pain that Demona feels and vice versa. Distance reduces the pain, but we've never been really specific about how much distance or what the reduction is. Does Macbeth, across town, feel a little of Demona's pain at transformation? If so, he could blame Demona, knowing as he does, that he feels her pain. All that would tell him is that Demona is in the vicinity. It wouldn't reveal that Demona is Dierdre, unless he saw her transform. On the other hand, Demona might be far enough away that Macbeth feels nothing. Or just a slight twinge of soreness, that he doesn't immediately connect with Demona. We can play it any of these ways, we just need to deal with this "Corsican Brother"-style pain-sharing. We can't ignore it.
Beat 10) We've got a lot of set-up with little action up to this point. Maybe we can streamline a bit. Also, it feels like Mac's hovercraft might be a little unwieldy for this sequence. Maybe he's on the flying equivalent of a jet-ski or something a bit more svelt.
But there's another big question. What is Macbeth's objective towards Demona at this point? He knows that the only way to rid himself of her is to die himself. He may have forgotten the lessons of City of Stone and Avalon, but I would think that his love for Dierdre would prevent him from wanting to die. Later we imply that he's chasing Demona in order to chase her out of town. But that's pretty goofy logic. "I haven't seen you in weeks. So I'm going to hunt you down, to make sure you stay out of my life."
Beat 11) We definitely want to do something with the Eiffel Tower. Maybe even stage a battle there in the first or second act. But the Tower is open to tourists at night. Does anyone see them hanging there? Or are we way into wee hours by this time?
Beat 13) Goliath can't steal this guys camcorder. He's not a thief. Even destroying it is pretty malicious for Goliath, who's never gone too far out of his way to hide from humans.
Beat 16) Gargoyles don't kiss. They stroke hair. And it's "Notre Dame" ("Our Lady"), not "Notre Damn" ("Our Damnation"?)
Beat 17) The Cathedral is a very temporary safe house for Thailog while some safer, new place is being built for him. (Or maybe that's part of what Thailog is after: Macbeth's Paris Mansion.) It is not abandoned. Thailog is safe their during the day, because he's like a needle in a gargoyle haystack. After dark, he can stay out of sight in the upper reaches, until the Cathedral closes for the night. But he can't have much of a set-up there. Computers? Paintings? I don't think so. Particularly when we've got reports of a creature climbing around the church at night. People might investigate. They wouldn't find Thailog. But what would they make of that computer?
Beat 18) Demona may have no desire to "see" Goliath, since she found Thailog. But she'd still want him dead. Plus she MUST be curious about this female gargoyle. She thinks she knows all the gargoyles that exist, and none of them are female. She'd have to know. (And for that matter, so would Thailog.)
Beat 19) Think about how silly it would look in live action, if a villain who looked like Thailog, whipped out a brush and in a few seconds added a necklace to a painting. It's equally silly looking in animation. Maybe moreso because it's so easy to do.
I don't understand the pre-nuptual agreement at all. Why does Macbeth feel he needs it? (And don't tell me his lawyers push him around.) Besides, the whole idea of it goes against what we want to have happen in the story. Thailog wants Mac and Demona to get married. And have Demona inherit so that he can inherit from her, when both Demona and Mac die. Or am I missing something? I don't think we want this to be about stealing money from a safe. That's small potatos for Thailog and Demona. Either we need to have some irreplaceable (possibly magical) maguffin in that safe, or we should be dealing with the whole ball of wax. The former would probably be easier, but I'd like to go for the latter ball of wax if we can.
Beat 20) Again, I don't buy Macbeth's logic for hunting down Demona.
Beat 21) Angela can't operate a camcorder. She's not Lex. (And as noted above, I don't see anyway for our guys to have this anyhow.) Plus she wouldn't recognize Thailog. Also it feels like a pretty big jump for Goliath to figure that Demona and Thailog are working together. Not an impossible jump, but a big one.
Also, I was unclear. Did Goliath have a chance to give instructions to Elisa or did he turn to stone before he had time?
Beat 23) Again, I don't believe Macbeth lets lawyers push him around. And I don't think we need this pre-nup agreement in the story.
Beat 24) I really don't like this camcorder. And I don't know why Elisa needs it here. Like if she followed Mac and Dem, returned to Goliath without visual proof he wouldn't believe her story?
Beat 25) "How can I prove my love to you?" "Give me the combination to your safe." Yeah, that wouldn't make me suspicious.
I'd almost rather play any scene like this where Macbeth is insisting on giving something to Dierdre, who protests that she doesn't want it. The more she protests that all she needs is his love, the more he wants to lavish on her. In this way, he is predictable, but he's not being fooled by "crocodile tears" into doing something that seems incredibly fishy.
Beat 26) Again, Elisa would recognize human Demona from "High Noon" the first time she saw her. But here I was entirely unclear. How does footage of Dierdre prove that she's Demona, when Elisa didn't recognize her in person?
And this bit about Dierdre being Demona's name...? Gargoyles didn't have names in the tenth century. Naming is a human convention. Goliath referred to Demona back then as his angel love, or his angel of the night. Do we want to change "Dierdre" to "Angel" or "Angelica" or "Angelique". I don't know if you still need this, since Elisa would recognize human Demona, but I suppose you could, as long as we wouldn't be confusing the audience with Angela.
Why wouldn't Goliath want Elisa along? And why would Elisa agree to stay behind?
And what is it that Angela's staring at? Footage of human Dierdre? This isn't going to help her make the connection between herself and Demona. Visual clues aren't really the answer at all, since she would have seen Demona in the Avalon 3-parter. She learned from Sevarius that Goliath was her biological father. Here she learns that Demona was Goliath's love all those years ago. She puts two and two together over the course of the episode. Figuring out the truth only after she's already come to regard Demona as evil. You won't have room here to deal with the ramifications of that discovery. You're just setting things up for another story.
Beat 27) Why does Macbeth want to capture Goliath and Angela if he wants to get Gargoyles out of his life for good?
Beat 28) Goliath is "spreading" lies? To who? I mean we know he's not. But who does Macbeth think he's spreading lies to, that makes him want to imprison Goliath to stop it?
Also Macbeth could NOT have heard about Thailog. He was under the Weird Sister's spell when Thailog made his only other appearance. Besides who would he have heard about him from?
Beat 32) Again, not at all happy about Thailog's magic paintbrush. Particularly since it proves nothing here. It's not a photograph. If Macbeth thinks Goliath might lie about Dierdre, why wouldn't he think that this is a further lie somehow accomplished by Goliath.
Beat 33) I'm glad Macbeth keeps his cook. That guy can make a mean omelette.
Beat 36) Again, don't forget that Macbeth and Demona feel each other's pain while fighting.
Beat 39) These are huge leaps for Angela to make. How does she know this about Thailog. Also does Thailog show up there, state what he states and then not get involved in the fight? Or is that a typo for Goliath? Maybe we should let the battle climax at the Cathedral. Thailog is there. Goliath tries to "save" his son from Demona's evil. (Goliath assumes this plan is Demona's, not Thailog's.) Thailog just laughs. Reveals he wants Mac and Demona to kill each other. And he'll kill Goliath to prevent him interferring. Or something like that.
Beat 41) Killing Demona would at least knock Macbeth out.
Beat 42) Again, doesn't Thailog want anything besides their deaths?
Beat 44) Goliath still needs to be in some discomfort vis-a-vis the biological mother and father thing. It's not the gargoyle way. Brynne is going to deal with this (she'll have the space to deal with it) in her Africa story. Let Elisa be the one who confirms Angela's suspicions.
Beat 45) Again, I think we're working against our own ends. Why does Thailog need Macbeth and Demona dead, if not for what he can gain by their deaths?
Beat 46) Again, I think we can let Demona and Thailog go off together. Also, we've spent the whole episode with Demona turning back and forth from human to gargoyle. Demona does not turn to stone -- ever.
Beat 47) Angela should not get any comfort from Goliath in this episode. You don't have the time to deal with it here. If she receives comfort, it would come from Elisa.
O.k. try another pass. I'd streamline, by opening with the skiff arriving in daylight. Elisa leaves the stone gargoyles on the skiff tied under a bridge and goes to explore Paris. A place she's never been. She probably calls home again. Maybe she tries her parents this time, and again gets an answering machine. To save money on a voice actor, the answering message can be one that Elisa recorded for her parents months ago. (My sister is on my parents' machine with a message she recorded two years ago.) Elisa's voice says something like: "My parents don't know how to work their answering machine, but if you leave a message for Peter or Diane Maza, there's a fifty-fifty chance they'll call you back"). You don't have to jump through hoops to get the message erased this time. Then she briefly wanders around Paris like a tourist until she spots Mac and "Dierdre" who she immediately recognizes as Demona. She doesn't know that Mac doesn't know it's Demona. She'd probably assume they're up to something bad together. And also guess that they're why she and Goliath, etc. have landed in Paris. She follows them at a safe distance, etc. She doesn't want to get spotted. Near nightfall, she might head back so that she can inform Goliath when he awakens. Or she might not want to lose Macbeth and Demona until after she's found their H.Q. Or maybe when Mac and Dierdre split up, Elisa follows Dierdre to see where she lands, then loses her among the tourists at the cathedral.
Anyway, that's somewhere to start.
My family and I watched "Double Jeopardy" a few nights ago for the DCV and for my (belated) but on-going Ramblings on each of the Gargoyles episodes...
(This 'chapter'/episode was written & Story Edited by my old buddy Cary Bates.)
It's literally been over a year since my kids or my wife have seen an episode of Gargoyles. I've occasionally had to check out individual scenes and/or credits for things I've been working on, but I don't think I've sat down to watch a whole episode beginning to end in quite some time either.
Watching the opening titles, my five year old son Benny remarked to his seven year old sister Erin: "You have [Brooklyn] and I have Goliath." He's referring to the Kenner toys I gave them a couple Christmas' ago. Erin, I believe has Brooklyn, Broadway and the Steel Clan robot. Benny has Goliath, Lex and Xanatos.
Then when Benny saw Xanatos in the credits, he said, "I was Xanatos last year." Here, he's referring to the fact that he dressed up as Xanatos for the costume ball at G2000. I had to point out that that was nearly TWO years ago.
Cary must have come up with this one, I think. I tend to favor one-worders myself. His original title was "Thailog Rules", which I didn't care for. I liked "Reversals" but he must have convinced me to go for "Double Jeopardy".
Erin, who can now read, asked what "Jeopardy" meant. I said "Trouble". And she was very amused that the title 'translated' as "Double Trouble". She liked that better, I think. She also enjoys reading the various on-screen scrawls, like "One Year Ago" and "One Year Later". Reading is like a super-power to her now. I hope she doesn't lose that.
So we open with a touch of continuity. Or retcon, I suppose. Though to me retcon is a nearly derogative term suggesting that continuity has been abused to fit new circumstances and I think our little flashback here fits in nicely with what we already knew of that time. A Steel Clan Robot interrupts Elisa trying to convince G that they need to find a new home. Goliath puts the bot down hard and fast. It's a cool and well-timed scene.
It's nice to see Goliath's old stubbornness there too.
Now, to the present. There's a color error (or perhaps cheat) where we see a flash of what will eventually turn out to be Thailog's arm. It's Goliath's color, not Thailog's.
Then we hear the maniacal laughter, which Hudson will later comment on: "Do you even know how to laugh maniacally?" he'll ask Goliath. The answer, surprisingly, is yes. Though I had forgotten, Goliath laughs pretty darn maniacally in "Enter Macbeth" after Macbeth suggests that Demona will come to Goliath's rescue. Still, one of the impulses that made me want to create Thailog was Keith David's talent. The fact that he was brilliant as Goliath, but that Goliath didn't allow us to show but a fraction of Keith's true range. Creating Thailog allowed Keith to do things that he otherwise wouldn't. And I think he's amazing. There's never any question as to which character is speaking whether that character is on-camera or not. And he does it all with acting. The voice itself is the same. Thailog lets Keith cut loose and just be BAD.
Also, a touch of Jeff Bennett's amazing flexibility too. Jeff does a Schwartzenegger impersonation for the mercenary. Beth immediately recognized it as an Arnold takeoff, but didn't know who was voicing it. She was suitably impressed to find out it was yet another creation of JB's.
I like Lex's line: "Made my hair stand on end... if I had any". (Note, all quotations are approximate.)
I had some fun trying to mess with the audience's minds. Which is tough, because honestly you guys (tv watchers in general these days) are pretty savvy people who know most writer-tricks. When you saw Thailog frozen in stone on the parapet, before the real Goliath & Brooklyn appeared in the episode, what did you think was going on?
Benny (still focused on the prologue) theorized: "It's a robot that also can be turned to stone."
Erin knew it wasn't Goliath. And after a few minutes wondered if the robot had cloned Goliath. (NOTE: Both kids have seen the episode before. But long ago. And for Benny, so long ago, that there's really no possible way he could remember it. Erin doesn't remember either, at least not consciously, but she may have more of a sense of it buried in there somewhere.)
The Emir is mentioned again. I think, though I can't remember for sure, that by this time, I had some vague notion of picking up on the throw away mention of this guy in "The Edge" and using him as a character later. So we mention him having deadline problems. In theory, he's already working on the Anubis plan that Xanatos agreed to bankroll back in "The Edge" -- but which wouldn't come to fruition until "Grief".
Owen is fun here too for me: "Is this a plan you neglected to mention?" A reasonable possibility, though it's hard to imagine that Xanatos would work anything behind Owen's back. I also like the bit about how Xanatos has never lacked for formidable enemies.
And Arnold's line about Sevarius giving him the creeps is truer now than ever before. Sitting in front of me is an article from this past Sunday's L.A. Times about Dr. Severino Antinori's real life cloning experiments. I even have a picture of the guy. He doesn't look much like our Anton. But the name and the sliding ethics sure sound spookily like Dr. Sevarius. As far as I know, that's a name that Michael Reaves made up out of the blue. It's really weirding me out.
Owen & Xanatos figure out that the kidnapper is Sevarius, and Xanatos has that great resigned villainous speech about how "An example must be made." It's funny. We have to work to get him to do anything that an everyday cartoon villain would do without breaking a sweat.
Also, we get the first mention of the "Thailog Project". The word "Thailog" itself, as I may have mentioned before, was another major impetus (is that spelled right) for creating the character.
While we were mixing the 35mm movie version of the pilot, there was one scene that was giving us trouble. The guys at Disney Sound kept rewinding across this scene over and over and I kept clearly hearing the same word "Thailog" over and over again. I eventually realized it was Elisa saying Goliath backwards. I just liked the sound of Thailog and that gave me the idea of creating an evil (i.e. backwards) Goliath. Again, that would also give Keith some fun opportunities.
But one thing I didn't want to do was to make Thailog a true dead-ringer for Goliath. I felt that had been done to death. It was fun to misdirect in the first act. But after that, I wanted something different. Thus we have the 'pigmentation' change brought on by the accelerated aging process. (This was another thing that mattered to me. Clones who miraculously are the same age as the original bug me. I wanted to at least pay lip service to the notion that theoretically a clone should age normally. The color change was an attempt to kill two birds with one stone.)
The specifics of the color change were actually inspired by John Byrne's tenure on the FANTASTIC FOUR at Marvel. He did a bunch of issues where the FF went to the Negative Zone, and when they emerged, their uniforms were altered from black and light blue to white and dark blue. It always seemed like a simple but stunning change. So Thailog was a nega-Goliath. (And, yes, Darkwing's foe Negaduck also had an influence, I'm sure.)
Broadway's ongoing 'learning to read' subplot is advanced. Lex has put two and two together and guessed that what they saw might just be a clone. Which is smart o him, I think. But BW has to figure out what Lex was spelling out. Perhaps even more of a challenge for a guy that didn't care about the written word, just a few short months before.
Erin saw her birthday on the Thailog project logs, and was very tickled. (Of course, it's really no coincidence.) I felt a little bad, since Benny's birthday never appears in the show. (Since he wasn't born yet.)
BW: "This is bad news."
LEX: "You can say that again."
BW: "This is bad news."
Erin: <LAUGHS> "He said it again."
Love the X & Sev scenes. It's always fun to give Tim Curry a chance to really HAM it up. (You can see how a lot of our work was inspired by the talents of our cast.) But I just love cross-purpose conversations in general. And this one is a blast. It's also nice to see Xanatos confused for a change. Props to Jonathan Frakes, who always gave us a very non-showy but spot on performance. Particularly once the voice and animation were put together.
X: You're the kidnapper.
Sev: I guess I am at that.
Goliath sees Thailog for the first time and reacts very badly. I think it's (dare I say it) very human of him. He thinks Thailog is an abomination. I love the "...pieces out my soul" line. Love it.
***HEY! I know I've said this before, but in case everyone's forgotten... These ramblings are admittedly a little obnoxious. I'm like praising my own work here. Except (a) some of it isn't my work, but the work of my colleagues and it still impresses me and (b) I'm genuinely fond of all this stuff so forgive the indulgence.****
Anyway, Elisa points out that Thailog is almost Goliath's son.
This was another ongoing point of behind-the-scenes contention. Since Thailog appears to be Goliath's evil twin, Cary and others thought we should play them as brothers instead of father & son. But that just seemed wrong to me. That wasn't the relationship either genetically or otherwise. And I liked the notion of Thailog having three fathers that he was in constant conflict/competition with.
All the father/son stuff is great.
I love the "Chip off the old block" "All the old blocks" exchange. Pun intended of course.
And Thailog's line "...just to raise a fool."
And Sev's "You do and do and do for them."
Thailog laughs maniacally multiple times. YAY!
Round about here, Erin muttered: "This is an odd episode."
Note that Thailog is attracted to Elisa from the start. Creepy. But also he's more in touch with his body chemistry than Goliath is. Guess it helps if you haven't had a decades of socialization.
Actually, everyone admires Elisa. X for her delicate wrists. The bit with Elisa slipping out of her manacles always seemed like a bit of a cheat to me. (See, sometimes there are things I don't like.) The handcuffs line was a semi-feeble attempt to cover.
I like the idea that Sev had worked up a garg specific knock-out gas that Thailog used.
I liked the animation and sound work on Thailog tearing open the oil barrels.
I liked Thailog's line "Now I know where I got the temper." But does he really have much of a temper. He seems much more Xanatosian than Goliathesque in that regard. But I do think he holds more of a grudge. He just hides it.
Tangent, but I believe that this maybe explains his relationship (still to come) with Demona a bit. I think he knows on some level that Demona likes him because he's the Goliath she always wanted. And Thailog is very into being his own man. He wants nothing from his fathers that he hasn't TAKEN.
Thailog won't leave without his money. I'd ask in hindsight whether or not at that point the money was even still in that briefcase.
Goliath by the end is now fully on-board with the notion of Thailog being his son. His clannish instincts have taken over. And he feels that all of Thailog's rookery fathers (X, Sev and G) have failed Thailog. The notion of multiple fathers is something that's easy for him to grasp. But of course, he takes his own failure to heart more than the others. Cuz he expects THEM to be jerks.
And now our patented Xanatos Tag. Only it's flipped into a Thailog tag. I love Owen's line: "He's out there, he has the money, he's as powerful as Goliath and he's smarter than you." Only Owen could slam X like that with impunity. And X's return: "Owen, I think I've created a monster." Love that too.
Still not sure whether I love the super-imposed Thailog head. But I do like Thailog's maniacal laughter. Never get enough of that.
Erin: "[Thailog] practically is a monster. Gargoyles are supposed to be monsters. Only they're nicer. Thailog is a monster."
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
[With the DCV moving into episodes that my rambles haven't yet covered, I'm again going to try to reprint old memos from the series. What follows are my notes on writer/story editor Cary Bates' outline for what eventually became "Double Jeopardy". By the time we wrote this memo, we'd clearly gone through three iterations of the story (which I no longer possess). This version related below, is darn close to what we finally wound up with, and should give you an idea of how closely I worked with the story editors, though it reveals little about who came up with what, since even I don't remember how much of what follows was new to this document and how much was part of what came before. Enjoy.]
Notes on "Thailog Rules" Outline...
O.K. You're last beat sheet was a big improvement. Particularly the Sevarius stuff. But something still seemed missing. So I reviewed all three versions of this thing and after dancing them around in my head a bit, came up with the following. It preserves the mystery of Goliath's strange behavior a little longer, but keeps the plotline moving along fast.
I'm afraid "Thailog Rules" tips our hand too much. What do you think of the title "Reversals"? Or something similar with the word "negative" in it? Or something like "Sins of the Fathers"?
I traded Brooklyn for Elisa. That way, we could get rid of the awkward phony weapons bit. Thailog (or Sevarius) could have left an anonymous tip for Elisa that brought her (and Lex and Broadway) past the right place at about the right time.
Can be very colloquial. Direct. Like his menacing laugh, it'll be weird for our audience to hear Keith's deep voice comfortably use edgy modern parlance.
1. Prologue. One year ago at Eyrie Building. Night. Keep very brief and simple. ELISA is trying to convince GOLIATH that he must find a new home, before Xanatos is released from prison. Suddenly, a STEEL CLAN ROBOT goes berserk, making a bee-line for Elisa. Goliath puts it down hard. OWEN apologizes and "treats" Goliath's small cut.
2. One year later. On a stormy night, Elisa is driving along Riverside Drive in upper Manhattan, where there's a bit of a cliff down to the water. LEXINGTON and BROADWAY are gliding through the storm above her. Lex wears a radio headset like the one he wore in "Legion". He uses it to communicate with Elisa, letting us in on the anonymous tip that brought them up here, and how it must have been a crank call, since it turned up nothing. (We need to believe that whatever this call claimed to reveal was something that would have led her to bring Lex and Broadway instead of Matt.) Just off shore, we should see an old oil rig platform. Suddenly, Lex and Broadway are attacked, and Elisa is "strafed" and nearly forced off the road and over the cliff. (Keep her point of view very tight and claustrophobic inside her car. Between the poor visibility and multiple "blind spots", she won't know where the next attack will come from.) As dangerous as the whole thing is, there's something almost childish about the attacks. Ultimately, Elisa gets control of her car, pulls over and gets out. Lex and Broadway land next to her, and they see their attacker. It's clearly "Goliath", though we only see him in silhouette, laughing. Then he is gone.
3. At Gen-U-Tech, DOCTOR SEVARIUS is making a down payment to LEAD MERCENARY. The Doctor's having a damn good time.
4. At the Clock Tower, just before Dawn, Elisa, Broadway and Lex have just finished describing Goliath's strange behavior to HUDSON. No one has a clue as to why Goliath would act that way, and they'll have to wait until sunset to find out. He and BROOKLYN were supposed to be out patrolling, and with Dawn fast approaching, they probably found a ledge to spend the day on: somewhere Goliath would feel safe.
5. Daytime at Eyrie Building. "Goliath" is frozen in stone on the highest tower of the Eyrie Castle. (Note: when "stoned" there's no way to tell the difference between Goliath and his counterpart.) XANATOS chats with Owen about how nice it is to have "him" here, guarding the castle. (Since they both know who they are talking about, they don't have to mention him by name.) Suddenly, MERCENARIES led by Sevarius' Lead Mercenary, land. Xanatos and Owen are caught off guard. Mercenaries leave with stone "Goliath" and Xanatos can't shoot them down without risking the gargoyle's life.
6. From his helicopter, the Lead Mercenary calls Sevarius by Video Phone, telling him that the mission is accomplished. They have the statue in the cargo hold in back. Sevarius is pleased and tells them to bring it to the rendezvous point, but not until after dark.
7. Night at the clock tower: Elisa, Hudson, Broadway, Lex and BRONX watch Goliath and Brooklyn come in for a landing. Goliath is bombarded with questions, but he doesn't know what they're talking about. Brooklyn confirms that Goliath has been with him the whole time. Well, if that wasn't Goliath they saw, then who was it?
8. In their helicopter, the mercenaries rendezvous with Sevarius at the abandoned oil rig platform. Sevarius is carrying a tranquilizer gun, which mystifies the lead mercenary. What's he gonna do, tranq the statue? The mercenaries open their hold, only to be confronted by THAILOG -- shock white hair, photo-negative colors, bad attitude, but otherwise a dead ringer for Goliath. (Incidentally, this is the last we'll ever see of these particular mercenaries.)
9. Lex and Broadway have brought Goliath to the riverside location of the previous' night's "attack". They find a Gen-U-Tech tracking bracelet (like the one in "Metamorphosis"), right where "Goliath" had been standing. Lex wants to check out Gen-U-Tech. Goliath sends him and Broadway to do it, while he and Elisa look around for whoever or whatever that phony Goliath was.
10. Back at the Eyrie Building, Owen hands Xanatos the phone. The voice on the other end has been electronically altered beyond recognition, which doesn't prevent it from demanding a ransom for Thailog: $20 million in cash to be delivered to Oil Rig Platform #18 (or whatever). Owen tries to trace the call. No luck. But he can trace Platform #18. It doesn't belong to Demona, Macbeth or Renard. In fact, it belongs to Xanatos Enterprises. That's all Xanatos needs to hear. He can barely believe it, but Sevarius must have betrayed him. It all fits. Sevarius works for X.E. and he's the only other person who knew that Thailog existed. Xanatos hates to lose a talent like Sevarius, but he can't permit this kind of behavior from his employees. He's just going to have to make an example of Dr. Sevarius.
11. At Gen-U-Tech, Lex and Broadway break in. Lex has an idea. He types "C-L-O-N-E" into the computer and gets the scoop on Project Thailog.
12. Goliath and Elisa have been searching the area. They've looked everywhere and found nothing. Almost everywhere. Goliath points to the oil rig.
13. Xanatos, wearing a trench coat and carrying a suitcase, has taken a launch out to the oil rig. He is greeted warmly enough by Sevarius. He shows Sevarius the money. Sevarius: "What? Oh, the money. You know in all the excitement, I almost forgot about it. Actually, I've never seen that much money in one place. Mind if I take a peek?" And while he does, Xanatos removes his coat, to reveal that he is wearing armor. Thinner, lighter than his Gargoyle armor. Not as effective in a huge battle, but still formidable and obviously, easier to conceal. He grabs hold of Sevarius and explains, that although he's not by nature a vengeful man, Sevarius has forced him to make an exception.
14. Pull back to reveal, Goliath and Elisa watching all this from above. She wonders what could set Xanatos and Sevarius against each other? "Some new abomination they created together." They decide to take a look around.
15. Meanwhile, Sevarius is stunned at Xanatos' attack. What did he do wrong? Xanatos can't believe he's asking. Kidnapping, extortion, betrayal -- how's that for a start? Sevarius suddenly gets conspiratorial and whispers, "Oh, I get it. Somebody's watching us. Don't worry. I'll make it look good." Then he hams it up big time: "YES, I BETRAYED YOU!! YOU TOOK MY CREATION AWAY FROM ME!! IT WAS ONLY AN ACT OF JUSTICE TO STEAL IT BACK!!" And then he whispers to Xanatos, "How was that?"
16. Goliath and Elisa find Thailog chained up in an oil storage tank. Goliath is horrified. How can this be? Thailog explains very briefly that he is a clone of Goliath, created from his blood. Goliath feels violated and speaks rashly about the horrors of modern science and the evil of Xanatos and Sevarius. Thailog seems hurt and glowers angrily at Goliath. Elisa yanks Goliath aside. "Listen, you have a right to be angry, but you shouldn't take it out on Thailog. It's not his fault he was created. And however it happened, he's still a gargoyle. In a way, he's kind of your son. And you're rejecting him."
17. A very perplexed Xanatos is finally putting it together. Sevarius thinks this is all an act. Now Sevarius is confused. Isn't it an act? I only followed your instructions. What instructions? Sevarius had gotten instructions from Xanatos' office over electronic mail to do everything he had done. Far from betraying Xanatos, he had thought he was helping Xanatos in his latest Machiavellian scheme. Except Xanatos doesn't know anything about this. Who else has access to his personal computer? Sevarius: "Owen? Fox?" Xanatos: "Don't be ridiculous." "Well, has anyone else had access to the castle?" Xanatos thinks about it, and then... laughs.
18. Back in the oil tank, Goliath knows that Elisa is right. He goes to free Thailog. But Thailog says it won't be necessary. The shackles weren't locked. He grabs Goliath, puts him in a wrestling hold and slams a gas mask over Goliath's mouth and nose. Before Elisa can do anything but gasp, Goliath slumps unconscious in Thailog's arms. And Thailog laughs.
19. Xanatos is still laughing. He's figured out that it was all Thailog's plan, and he's proud of his boy. Thailog comes out, smiling. And he's carrying a little bonus -- an unconscious Goliath and Elisa. (He took her out during the commercial.) Better and better. The kid is a real chip off the old block. "Yes, I am... All the old blocks." And he slaps an electro-disk onto Xanatos, shorting out his armor and knocking him unconscious. Screen goes black.
20. When Xanatos regains consciousness, he is chained next to Goliath, Sevarius and Elisa (in the oil tank maybe). Thailog enters with murder in mind. He's learned from all of his "proud fathers". But he has no intention of going through life as Sevarius' guinea pig or Xanatos' stooge. It's time to leave the nest. And twenty million should help him make his mark. Sevarius protests: How are you going to spend it? You can't exactly open a checking account. But Thailog has learned enough from Xanatos to know that with that much money, he can find a way to make it work for him. After all, he set all of them up without any cash incentives. Imagine what he could do with 20 mil? Goliath tells Thailog that he doesn't need the money. He can join the gargoyle clan. Thailog: "Do I look like a sap to you?" He has no desire to waste his time acting as guardian angel to a city full of ignorant humans. He had toyed with the idea of sharing the money with Goliath. That's why he had arranged for Goliath to join the party. But their little family reunion pissed Thailog off. "So I've decided to hate you too." He approaches Elisa, caresses her face. It seems like a waste, but she's going to have to die too. Nothing personal. He leaves, activating a death trap. (Maybe the oil tank starts filling with oil or something.) At any rate, the four work together to escape the trap. Though they set the rig on fire in the process.
21. Topside, they arrive just in time to stop Thailog from escaping with the cash. Thailog is furious that they've escaped. Big battle mostly between Thailog and Goliath. Broadway and Lex finally arrive but by this time the rig is about to collapse. Goliath tries one last attempt to reason with Thailog. They must escape. Thailog won't leave without the money. He goes after it, is caught in an explosion and apparently dies. Xanatos and Sevarius escape in Xanatos' launch. Broadway, Lex and Goliath leave with Elisa. They've survived. But at such a great cost. Goliath would like to blame Xanatos and Sevarius for corrupting Thailog. But all of Thailog's fathers hurt him. Goliath cannot exonerate himself.
22. Epilogue: One week later. Xanatos, Sevarius and Owen are talking about a brand new, more secure computer system. Price tag: just under $20 million. Xanatos chuckles at the irony, and then almost chokes on the chuckle. He suddenly realizes that if he had been in Thailog's shoes, he would have planned a contingency for their escape from his death trap. He would have faked his own death so that he could get away with the money. Sevarius: "You mean that monster's still out there. It has the money... and it's smarter than you?" Xanatos, dead serious: "Owen... I think I've created a monster."
Someone brought up the distinctive coloration of Thailog again, and I thought I'd throw in my two cents. You both agree, basically, that the idea to give Thailog a unique 'color scheme' was a good one, because it nulled the possibility of Thailog and Goliath being mistaken for each other, a very bad cliche. If you'd kept Thailog looking identical and just NOT done that cliche, we the viewers would simply be waiting for it, so the coloration difference was the best way to actively put it to rest.
You ask what the rest of us think about the general direction you and the other writers took Thailog. I'd just like to say that IMHO you guys played him BRILLIANTLY. And I mean it. So many shows bring in clones seemingly just to screw with the hero's identity. But in GARGOYLES Thailog plays such a more profound role. He is Goliath, but with a different soul. And that is what makes him disturbing. Also, in most shows, the clone remains the instrument of his creator, until perhaps he eventually dies, either slain or martyred. But in GARGOYLES Thailog breaks free of his creators in his very first appearence. Right off the bat, Thailog makes it clear that he is his own character, and that although his origin is as a clone, that isn't the extent of his profile. He is something never seen before in science fiction: a clone who so well establishes himself that the description "clone of Goliath" just sounds ignorant and pitiful.
Wow. Thanks. I'm very glad it (all of it) worked for you.
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
You're right on both counts. I do remember having fallen asleep and just woken up in time to see the "Double Jeapordy" episode. Probably thought I remembered more than I really did, both about what I had just seen and Angela's situation. Lousy excuse though. I really should have researched better before asking a question of such an involved level (re: attempting to compare Thailog and Angela).
No biggie. Glad you're interested.
Why didn't Thailog and Demona clone Angela?
Demona didn't want a clone of Angela, she wanted Angela. So she never released a mosquito when Angela was guarding her cell. That meant that Thailog and Sevarius didn't have the option.
If Gargoyles are biologically inclined to take a monogamous mate (as well as traditionally) why is it so easy for Thailog to discard Demona?
Can a gargoyle have physical relations with more than one other gargoyle before the "imprint" sets in? Or does the "imprint" set in during the first full physical relationship?
Opportunistic programming allows Thailog to override certain impulses.
Generally, the latter.
Is the reason you created the clone's differn't skin, eyes and hair pigmintation, because you didn't want another cartoon where your trying to figure out which one is the real Goliath or Lexington? Or at least not overdue it since this happend latter with Proteus?
I liked Thailog's look. It was partially inspired by the changes that John Byrne made to the Fantastic Four's costumes in the eighties.
But yes. Though we played the beat for a couple of acts, I didn't want to do EVIL TWIN takes the place of the good guy and confuses everyone. Once Thailog was revealed, there wasn't any question as to who was who. Just seemed a more original take on the old clone idea. What do the rest of you think?
(And Proteus had nothing to do with it. At the time we were creating Thailog, I didn't yet know that I was going to insert The New Olympians into the Garg Universe.)
I now have a list of questions to for you about love. ahhh
1. Does Hyena love Jackel?
2. Does Jackel love Hyena?
3. How serius are Hyena's feelings to Cyotie? Is she madley im love with him, or just mildly attracted? Either way, it's kinda gross
4. How does Cyotie feel toward Hyena? He seemed up for they idea of "making sparks fly".
5. Does Fox love Anistasia(before and after the Gathering)?
6. Does Halcyen still carry a torch for Anistasia? And does he now know that she is Titania?
7. Does Titania love fox?
8. Does Puck love Alex?
9. Does Oberon love anyone besides Titania?
10. Does Dracon dream about Elisa and him being together?
11. Was Brooklyn attracted to Demona before "Temptation". He seems to go after the most females.
12. Does Iago feel in love with Desdemona, or is it a strong sexual attraction, or is it just to hurt Othello?
13. Was there a time when Desdemona had feelings toward Iago?
14. Does Vinnie have a special someone (besides himself), or does everyone think he is too wierd?
15. Has Thailog ever felt love, even in the slightest way?
16. Was Malcolm and Elaina's wedding more out of love, or convenience?
17. Do Banquo and Florence have a thing for each other?
18. Does Cagney have a special kitty friend, or just Elisa?
19. Has the Magus been yerning for Kathern all of his life, and never told her how he felt? If yes., thats pretty sad.
20. And, somewhere deep deep down, both Goliath and Demona both yern to again be one, now and forever. Right? I better be. And this would have been shown in latter episodes besides dark ages right?
I'm sure you can see from my questions that I am QUITE the softy. And I love how Gargoyles uses this topic so often. Great job!!!
Twenty Questions! YAY! :P
1. Sure, to the extent she knows how.
3. Something between madly in love and mildly attracted.
4. He's indifferent in the incarnations you've seen.
6. Yes and Yes.
7. Of course.
9. Yes. His children and his Children and the island of his birth and all the funny little mortals. He's a benificent one, that Oberon.
11. I think Brooklyn respected Goliath too much to think that way, to allow himself to think that way.
12. The first two. The third is just a side benefit.
14. He is currently available? You interested?
15. He's not admitting to it, unless he's lying.
16. Politics. And a hope of love.
17. They're exes.
18. That avenue has not yet been explored.
19. Not all his life. After all, he's ten years older than she is. But yes, it is sad.
20. I think somewhere deep, deep down Goliath wants to be with Elisa. And somewhere deep deep down, Demona wants to be with someone who is right for her.
This has both an apology and a question. Apparently you answered my recently posted question previously, to Aaron, some time ago. The problem is that I did not see Thailog's archive (somehow my eye missed it that time) and only one for the Clones. The answer I wanted was in Thailog's archive but not in the Clones archive. Therefore, I thought I was asking a new question.
But I've also figured out what bothers me about Goliath's "he is my son" response. If, as you said in your response to Aaron, Goliath feels responsible and wants to bring Thailog into the fold -- where he told Angela she should see the clan as her parents -- should Goliath have said instead "he is the clan's son" or "he is our son" (though THAT would have been odd, since he's talking to Elisa!).
Is that taking it personal attributable to Goliath's personality then? Would most Gargs have said "Thailog is the clan's son" or "He is of my blood. He is one of the clan"???
You're taking this stuff out of context, as you yourself indicates. The fact that he didn't semantically state it EXACTLY as you might wish he had, is unimportant. You get the idea.
Really, I think you're splitting hairs.
I just got done watching "Double Jeapordy," and in it Goliath emphasizes to Elisa that he must stay on the rig and talk to/rescue Thailog because "he is (of?) my blood. He is my son."
However, later on he meets his daughter Angela, but doesn't realize the connection at first. After Sevarius clues her in about her biological parents (Goliath and Demona) and Angela starts pressing the point with Goliath, Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan. It is not until Elisa's mother and Goliath have the heart to heart about children sometimes needing special attention that Goliath and Angela begin to bond more directly, if I'm not mistaken.
But with Thailog, Goliath wants to reach out and make a bond almost from the outset.
Is it the circumstances of Thailog's creation that make Goliath take more responsibility for Thailog from the get-go versus Angela, or is it (though certaintly not her fault) that the fact Angela is also Demona's child somehow alienates Goliath more at first? Is it something else entirely? I found the difference in attitudes striking.
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Later, he NEVER denies her as his child. He simply is uncomfortable with her focus on him as her biological father. This also mixes in guilt -- survivors guilt this time. And a healthy fear that if she responds this way to him being her biological father, then how will she respond when and if she learns that Demona is her biological mother. If she had simply been calling him father from the get go, he'd have had no problem. But she didn't until she got word from Sevarius about biology. That's what troubled him. She wasn't thinking like a gargoyle. When "Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan" that's not just a means of putting her off, it's not just something to say. That's how he was raised. That means something to him.
In any case, the Thailog and Angela situations are so widely different, it's really comparing apples and oranges. But I certainly don't see any inconsistencies in Goliath's behaviour.
1)At the fun house, when Goliath goes for help, why dosn't he bring Claw and Maggie. I know it's a pretty dumb question, but hey.
2a)Does Sevarius still work at Gen-u-tec, as well as at Nighstone. Does he still work for Xanatos, or do Xanatos new priorities require letting Sevarius go. b)Would Sevarius make somthing like Thailog ever agian? Was he as scared by him as Xanatos was? c) Is Thailog on much better terms with his father Sevarius, or would he still like to kill him if he lost his usefullness?
1. He doesn't have time to stop by BOTH the Clock Tower and the Labyrinth. If you were Goliath, where would you go? (Keep in mind that neither Claw or Maggie are really 'warriors born'.)
2a. As of when?
2b. Sevarius is not too big on common sense, I think.
2c. Thailog's not on great terms with any of his fathers.
I must confess that one thing that surprises me a little about Demona is how long it took her to realize the truth about Thailog. After all, we're dealing here with a gargoyle who prides herself on not trusting anyone, who's utterly and thoroughly suspicious about everyone. And Thailog strikes me as being about as thoroughly untrustworthy as they come. But the interesting thing is that Demona doesn't seem to suspect that Thailog is an unreliable ally until he finally comes out and says it in "The Reckoning" with his "I've decided to: a) kill your daughter, and b) dump you in favor of a clone that I made of you, who, by the way, is also a part-clone of Elisa." Of course, the guy is thoroughly cunning (I particularly noted how, in "Sanctuary", he cleverly drew attention away from himself after Macbeth blasts his way to freedom with the laser gun that Thailog slipped him by shouting at Demona "Didn't you search him?"), and as Macbeth himself admitted when Angela raised the same question at the end of "Sanctuary", love can be blind. But I do find it intriguing that Demona was so thoroughly duped by Thailog for so long (though it has a certain appropriateness to it).
I find it appropriate to. Indicative of her desire to be with someone who she could believe shared her worldview. (It has little to do with Thailog personally, I think -- and more to do with his resemblence to Goliath and yet the obvious contrast in his personality.)
But my question to you is what would you think could have possibly given Thailog away to Demona, before he was ready to drop his facade?
I don't know why I'm bothering to ask this, but just in case you're in a generous mood:
1a) Does Thailog ever find a mate (other than Demona, if you could call them mates)? b) Which race is she/he? (New Olympian, human, Child of Oberon, gargoyle, etc)?
2a) Does Hollywood ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
3a) Does Burbank ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
4a) Does Brentwood ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
5a) Does Malibu ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
6a) Does Claw ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
7) Which race is Delilah's mate?
8) Which race is Lex's mate?
9) Will the Labyrinth clan have any gargoyle beasts by 2198?
1-8. I'm not revealing any of this at this time, though I will say that at least some will find mates.
How did Thailog get that armor? Was it tailor made?
He spent money. The logistics don't interest me too much. I'm sure it was made to his precise specifications, however.
I know we've spent a lot time talking about Demona's motivations, but what of Thailog's. I'm guessing a desire to prove his own legitamacy in light of his unique origins and the long shadow cast by his fathers, especially Goliath.
One thing that never made complete since to me though was why he turned on Demona. There can't be that many Gargoyles who would ally themselves with his "unique slant on things." Clones are fine but Thailog initially relegated them to the status of servile drones. Was it that Demona was a loose canon. Was he simply bored with her? Finally it occured to me that if he is trying to prove himself to be a better Gargoyle,by his own defintion, tthen Demona might very well seem like a "hand me down." Or perhaps, he realized that Demona saw him not as "Thailog", but as a Goliath substitute. Talk about a blow to your self worth!
All very interesting observations. Lot of truth there.
I think you may be right about Demona, but you're also leaving his attraction (for whatever reason) to Elisa out of the equation.
And you may be giving the long shadow of Goliath too much credit. I tend to think Xanatos was the bigger influence and the longer shadow.
But it all sounds smart to me. (Except the "bored with her" part. Demona is many things, but never boring.)