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Why did Macbeth have Banquo and Fleance as best man and maid of honor at his wedding? He doesn't seem to like them, and the feeling seems to be mutual. So why did he bring them all the way to Paris for his wedding?
They were his employees. They didn't come for the wedding. They came to serve his needs, whatever his needs might be.
Why did Macbeth want the Scrolls of Merlin? That was never answered in the episode Lighthouse in a Sea of Time.
Yes, it was, actually. He thought they'd contain powerful magical spells... useful (potentially) in his conflict with/hunt for Demona.
What happened to Duncan's wife? Was she alive when Duncan was killed?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
What was the relationship between Macbeth and Duncan like during the eight years that Duncan was king? By 1040, he seemed to trust Macbeth enough to go walking with him and his son.
Macbeth tried to demonstrate his loyalty. Duncan always regarded these attempts with suspicion.
What did Gillecomgain think of being betrothed to marry Gruoch? Did he choose her, or was the arrangement purely on Duncan's orders?
I think he saw the value of the alliance politically and economically.
You answered, when asked if Macbeth and Demona share emotional pain, "Metaphorically." I didn't quite understand that. Could you explain in greater detail?
Where did Macbeth go when he fled Scotland in 1057? Did he ever return?
I'm not answering the former at this time. But, yes, he has been back to Scotland since 1057.
Did Macbeth really die when Canmore stabbed him? The Weird Sisters said to Demona that "though the pain is great, child, you are unharmed." Were she and Macbeth alive, but in pain, when Canmore declared himself victorious?
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Can Demona or Macbeth sustain permanent damage? Like scars, lost limbs, etc... They're in impeccable shape for people who've been, as you said in one answer, "stabbed, shot, etc."
The question isn't can they, but HAVE they.
Did Luach have any children in the Gargoyles universe? Historically, he did. And his descendants tried to seize the throne in the 1100s.
He did, yes.
I'll be appearing at Wonder-Con this coming weekend, March 2-4, 2006 in San Francisco.
I've got a couple panels on Saturday the 3rd at 3 and 4pm. One's an animation panel moderated by Shan Muir and featuring many animation pros, and the other is a spotlight panel moderated by Dan Vado of SLG.
For more info, check out: http://www.comic-con.org/
If you're in the neighborhood stop by, say hello, introduce yourself, get something signed or whatever!!
Does Demona still think that Macbeth was planning to betray her in 1057?
What was Macbeth and Demona's relationship like when he was king? How well did they get along?
What do Macbeth and Demona think of that golden age during his reign as king?
Macbeth probably sees it as a glorious time, capped by betrayal.
Demona probably sees it as part of an elaborate scheme to lull her into a false sense of security.
Does Demona know that Macbeth is no longer actively hunting her?
Are you so sure he's not?
How did Canmore find out about Macbeth and Demona's link? How did those rumors get started?
Think about it. Macbeth ages nearly twenty years in one night and suddenly has a gargoyle ally... Plus a few people knew about the "bargain" including Bodhe. Word was bound to get around. Not necessarily accurate word. But word.
Did Demona's low opinion of humans change at all during Macbeth's golden age of rule? She and her clan's treatment was very different from what it had been before, and his reign is the only time we ever see Demona truly happy and content.
I think it did -- at least briefly but certainly superficially.
Have you changed any of your original plans for future plots recently? Are there any answers you've given on Ask Greg that are no longer correct?
I'm sure there are a ton of answers that are no longer correct. Heck, I'm sure that there were a few answers that were incorrect back when I first typed them.
I have made a conscious decision not to change anything "revealed" at ASK GREG, simply because I've revealed it already. If I still like the idea and it still feels right and makes sense for the characters and I haven't thought of a better notion then I'll just use what I have and live with the fact that the fans won't be surprised by anything (except perhaps how the idea is executed).
But having said that, I have always maintained that nothing is truly canon unless it appears in an official "episode" which at this point for me includes the 65 tv eps of the first two seasons of the show and the two issues of the SLG published comic. (Soon to be first three issues.) I also feel pretty secure about events in issues 4-7, which are all fully scripted. I don't anticipate anything changing them, but until they hit the stands, they are NOT canon. Call them canon-waiting-in-the wings. Whereas ASK GREG material is canon-in-training at best.
What did Macbeth's subjects think of him aging suddenly from 35 to 52 overnight? Did he ever give an explanation for the change?
I'm sure he made a point NOT to give an explanation, and I'm sure everyone assumed the truth, i.e. sorcery.
Did Macbeth have any advisors other than Demona? If so, how well did they get along with Demona?
Clearly, he had Bodhe, who was probably afraid of Demona. But I'm sure he had others, and some would have gotten along with her better than others did. But I tend to think that Demona reported directly (and to some extent privately) with Macbeth, limiting her "camaradery" with the rest of his "staff".
What's Macbeth opinion about Gargoyles as a species?
See issue #2 of the comic for a fairly good idea.
The Scottish people seemed pretty hateful/fearful towards gargoyles before Macbeth's reign. How was he able to change opinions and get people to accept Demona and her clan?
Winners tend to get to make the rules. And the gargoyles helped the winning side win. So that went a LONG way toward reducing more OVERT prejudice.
Did the English really care about exterminating Demona and her clan like Bodhe thought?
It was only an excuse. They had larger political, religious and territorial concerns. (Not that they LIKED gargoyles.)
Does Macbeth have any close friends? If so, do any of them know who he really is?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
Who came up with the idea for the Paris scheme against Macbeth? Thailog or Demona?
What did Demona plan on doing with Goliath and his clan if her plan in Hunter's Moon had succeeded?
Present it as a fait accomplis and hope that they came around...
But who are we kidding? The notion that Demona gave much real thought to the aftermath of Operation Clean Slate is iffy.
Demona seemed pretty pleased with Goliath's vengeful attitude towards the Hunters in HM, part two. She even comments "perhaps you and I are not so different after all." This was quite a change from her usual homicidal rage towards him. Why did she behave so differently towards him?
Again, I'm tempted to just say "Why do ya think?"
I mean, haven't you really answered your own question?
Is Macbeth conciously aware of how much his morals have changed since his youth? He does things in the present that he would never have done when he was young (attacking innocents to trap an enemy, theft, etc...) If he does realize how much he's changed, how does he feel about it?
I'll leave that to audience interpretation, I think.
You said that Gruoch's brother, MacBodhe, was murdered in 1033, and that Gillecomgain was the one that assasinated him. How is this possible? Gillecomgain died in 1032.
I'm pretty sure I said that King Maol Chalvim II (or some combination of Maol & Duncan and/or someone OTHER than Gillecomgain that one or the other hired) murdered MacBodhe in 1033. If I said anything to imply that Gillecomgain himself killed MacBodhe, that was an error. But I don't think I said that.
In 1020, Gruoch and Bodhe are referred to as guests at Moray castle. Where did they live, and how often did they visit Moray after Findlaech's death?
They did not live at Castle Moray. I'm sure Bodhe had his own keep, but that keep was somewhere in Moray, and Bodhe's family were probably frequent guests of the Castle.
What did Bodhe think of Gruoch being betrothed to Gillecomgain? He didn't seem nearly as enthusiastic at that wedding as he was when she married Macbeth. Which 'suitor' did he prefer her being married to?
I think he LIKED Macbeth better (who wouldn't?) but he was too afraid to defy Duncan.
In COS part one, when Findlaech raises his sword to kill Gillecomgain, Bodhe can be seen next to Gruoch behind him at the entrance to the balcony. Do you consider this an animation mistake or canon?
I'd have to look at it again.
Why didn't Goliath and co. (when they were in Paris) tell Macbeth about the Weird Sisters controlling him and Demona? Even if only to prevent him from being susceptible to their manipulations again.
How do you know they didn't?
What was Hippolyta like? Why did she have a name when most other gargoyles didn't?
Hyppolyta no more had a name than Othello, Desdemona and Iago had names. "Hyppolyta" is a designation for us poor humans.
You've said that Hudson had a young daughter, a generation down from Broadway, that was a child when the clan was smashed. What was she like?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
What was Macbeth's position in WWII? We know he fought in it, but from what angle? Was he in the British or American militaries? Did he fight independently? Other?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
You've said that Macbeth doesn't get involved after the Space Spawn invade Earth in 2198, until some time later. Why? Surely he wouldn't just ignore his planet being taken over. He fought in WWII. Why would he stay out of this far more important war?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
Why did Goliath forgive the Captain of the Guards? Sure, he may not have intended for the Gargoyles to die, but he had no problems with the deaths of the soldiers of the castle, the refugees who were unlikely to be spared, etc... He even helped Hakon chase down Katherine when she tried to flee. This guy's just as creepy as any other villain we've seen.
Forgiveness helps the forgiver at least as much as the forgiven. Or that's the theory.
Macbeth said to King Arthur that he was too long a king to serve another. Does this mean that he's never served or worked for anyone post-1057?
No, it doesn't necessarily mean that.
How did Xanatos' mother die? How did Xanatos react?
I'm not telling this story at this time.
You've hinted that Luach was conceived during the time that Gruoch was married to Gillecomgain, with Macbeth being the father. Why would he and Gruoch take such a risk? He gave her up for her own safety... committing adultery would probably have resulted in her execution.
Yep. So why would they take the risk?
The only answer I have is... why do you think?
Just to be clear, I'd like to make the point that I haven't "hinted" that Luach was conceived during Gruoch's marriage to Gillecomgain. Luach was definitely conceived during that time. I have suggested that PERHAPS Macbeth was the biological father, but that neither Gruoch or Macbeth know for sure.
What does Demona think of Delilah?
What do you think she thinks?
What does Elisa think of Delilah? It must be pretty disconcerting to know there's a clone of her and Demona.
As of issue #2 of the comic book, Elisa hasn't seen Delilah in person. But knowing someone like Delilah exists is probably disconcerting enough.
This is the first of MANY questions. I've submitted them individually, despite shared subjects. I didn't want an entire lot of questions removed because one was judged to be against the rules. I'm praying that these don't get deleted because I posted them all separately. Anyway... here goes.
Does Xanatos regret any of the things he's done during the course of the series? For moral reasons, not because the plan failed. Is there anything he's done that he's felt was morally wrong?
Xanatos is (a) largely amoral and (b) not one to cry over spilled milk.
HUNTER'S MOON, PART ONE
The beginning of the end (so to speak…).
I have to say, GARGOYLES was the first animated series I remember that actually seemed to have "Season Finales"--it just made it that much more special for me.
The "HUNTER'S MOON" title font is in red (as opposed to the usual blue color). It really helps set this apart from the other episodes, and indicates that "Big Things" are about to happen in the world of the show (at least, to me). I have to ask, Greg, when did you guys decide to change the font color for this three-parter?
The re-made Gillecomgain sequence is cool, despite the erroneous use of Demona's older model. I always notice that Demona's line from CITY OF STONE ("That'll teach you humans to betray us") is shortened here to just "That'll teach you humans." Was that done for time, or just to avoid getting bogged down with trying to explain the reference?
I can't help but hold a bit of fascination for Gil's father. The guy is an unsympathetic jerk, but his attitude toward the idea of "a rogue gargoyle looking for food" surprised me. He doesn't seem to view them with any of the venom or disdain (or even wonder) that we've seen others show. In fact, (like your ramble says) he just seems to view such things as a part of life. He almost reminds me of a quote attributed to W. C. Fields, "I am completely without prejudice; I hate everyone equally" (quote approximate). I guess, in that way, I dislike him a little less than I do Gillecomgain and many of the other Hunter's.
Anyway, flash forward to the present and the subway.
Yes, I did recognize Elisa in her disguise--the outfit may have been different but I'd already seen Elisa in that blonde wig, and well, "Fool me once…."
The three muggers make another of their little appearances, this time with slightly different character models: trench coats just big enough to conceal weapons (I only point this out here because I didn't really notice it until I read your memos, Greg).
The one thug's line (when threatening Elisa) about settling for a "first date" made me raise my eyebrows a bit. It's another one of those suggestive lines, and for me actually helped add another layer of realism to the scene.
We get our little list of cameos on the train (complete with a bickering session between Margot and Brendan), and then the gargoyles arrive.
One thing I've always noticed about the subway fight sequence (aside from the brief shot of Goliath with grey eyes), is that the only gargoyles who engage in any action are Goliath (who does pretty much everything), Brooklyn (who tears a hole in the ceiling only to get a shot across his arm) and Angela (who glides down to assist Brooklyn). What were Broadway and Lex given to do in all this? Play "Rock, Paper, Scissors?" And they're even the ones crowing loudest on their way home ("Are we good or what?"--I wouldn't know since you didn't DO anything!). ;-)
The third mugger's voice seems to change. When he first spoke back in the subway station he's voiced by one guy (kind of sounds like Tom Wilson) but when he pulls his gun on Goliath ("Tough luck, handsome") he's voiced by another guy (sounds like Jim Cummings). Another one of those things I always seem to notice.
You mentioned Demona's change being a bit "anime" in your ramble, Greg, and I noticed that as well, but it wasn't the only bit of "anime-like" animation I remember. When Elisa delivers her "Just some concerned citizens…with wings" line (LOVE that, BTW) and continuing through the next scene up until the gargs' arrival at the Clock Tower, the animation always struck me as having a style similar to anime. Mostly it's their eyes; the way they blink and close.
At any rate, Greg, you guys definitely established the status quo of life being good for the gargoyles at this place and time. And I was even beginning to see the Broadway/Angela relationship. I know that my brother was one of those who followed the idea of Brooklyn/Angela, and Angela's tending Brooklyn's wounds probably helped convince him, but for myself I figured it would be Broadway and Angela as soon as I saw them roosting next to each other. That's right; POSSESSION didn't influence me one way or the other, but seeing the two of them in such close proximity convinced me they were going to be an item. Just the funny way my mind works, I guess.
Now we meet Jason for the first time (and he's revealed in almost the same manner Matt was back in THE EDGE), but Elisa's reaction could not be more different (it's actually a nice little comedic beat the way she shifts gears like she does).
During the conversation in the car, it's obvious (to me at any rate) that Jason was hiding something (this is based mostly on the way he sidesteps the question of where he transferred from). One thing I notice is that although he brings up the subject of urban myths, he never mentions gargoyles. This provides an intriguing contrast with Jon's approach, which I'll get to later.
During the robbery and its subsequent chase sequence, Jason does all the things we say cops should do in that situation--he shoots the flammable material, he shoots out the tire of the getaway van. The thing is, to me, this is a subtle indication that Jason is not a real cop. I don't know for certain, but I think discharging a firearm (shooting a gun) from a moving vehicle is technically against regulations. Of course, Elisa doesn't bat an eye, but this is the gal who walked right into the men's locker room.
There are some fun moments in the chase. Elisa muttering, "My mechanic's going to love this" when she starts to drive "off-road" (said mechanic will love all the bullet holes even less). Also, the stage coach horse understandably rears up as the two vehicles pass pretty much under it's bucking legs, but the stage coach driver isn't fazed at all. I guess it's just another day at work for him.
Eventually, the cops catch the bad guys (most of them, anyway) and the new partners compliment each other's respective abilities. Then Jason offers to buy Elisa a cup of coffee. I hear that, and I think to myself, "Uh-oh." Another guy might be coming between Goliath and Elisa (unknowingly, of course). Our heroes "calm bay" has started to develop waves….
Anyway, Robyn is interviewing over at Nightstone Unlimited. I always wondered why she singled out that company as the one to infiltrate. Maybe she caught rumors about Dominique Destine's never having been seen at night….
I can definitely see the idea of her as a female Owen: stoic demeanor, "pointed" face, blue eyes, blonde hair. Give her a pair of wire frame glasses and it'd be a perfect match!
And may I just say that I love Dominique's business dress. In fact, Demona presents herself very well as a businesswoman, except when she gets angry, of course (it's almost comical when she looks about ready to rip the burglar to pieces in her business suit).
And yes, her change kicks ass. I just wish the animators had remembered to leave off her tiara.
Is it just me, or is Act 2 of this ep shorter than usual? I swear it just seems to fly by.
I love the scene of Xanatos playing with Alex while being interviewed by Matt. I did believe Xanatos when he said DI-7 was a disinfectant--I had no reason to suspect him of ulterior motives at this point. Matt, of course, tries to give his best, "I'm a good guy who knows you're dirty" barb, but Xanatos just deflects it by asking his son, "Alex, can you say 'harassment?'" Alex babbles some baby talk, and Xanatos says, "I knew that you could." I love that little moment.
Goliath's reaction to Elisa's description of her new partner always intrigued me. When she's doing nothing but complimenting him, he's smiling, even seems somewhat amused, but when she tries to downplay it, his smile vanishes. He's able to pick up on her personality quirks. Seems like they're in a relationship to me!
The gargoyles seem to be going REALLY fast when they glide past camera on their way to their stakeout locations. Just something that really struck me this time.
But now we meet Jon, posing as a reporter for WVRN. He also seems to be trying to collect information on gargoyles, but he's nowhere near as subtle as Jason. "Gargoyles" are practically the first thing Jon mentions, and the only thing he talks about. No wonder Xanatos is so suspicious.
"If you brought them before me now, I'd happily pulverize them on the spot." It's a funny thing, but I while I still believed in Xanatos's truce with the clan, I never doubted that he would love another sparring match with them.
I am surprised that Jon managed to find a piece of stone skin at the Eyrie Building, though. I mean, what with the fights in CITY OF STONE, KINGDOM, and THE GATHERING that little piece must have been on a very remote corner of the Roof not to get picked up by a cleaning crew. (I'm sorry, I don't mean to nit-pick this much, but…well, there it is!).
The gargs run into trouble at each of their respective stakeouts. I did get the little moment where Lex and Broadway point at Brooklyn in answer to the question "Who wants to explain this to Goliath." As for the bit where Demona's particle beam rifle (or whatever) is able to puncture glass and an entire van, but fails to go through Brooklyn's car door shield…I can only guess that her first few shots had drained her rifle's power cell. It's not much of an explanation but it works for me.
I love the animation of Brooklyn and Demona's fight; it's short but the play of lighting when they're struggling in the foreground and the fire's burning in the background is just wonderful.
But while the Trio and Bronx are dealing with Demona, Goliath, Hudson and Angela face the new threat. As soon as the Hunter's appeared, and I noticed there were two guys and one gal, I pretty much figured out who they were. It is interesting, for me, to compare and contrast their suits. The predominant color scheme is black and red, with a bit of blue thrown in here in there. Actually Jon and Jason's suits are almost opposites in this regard (some of the pieces of armor the two suits share are blue on Jason's suit, and red on Jon's). Of course, another difference is the manner of gloves on the costumes. Jason is the only one to wear full gloves. Jon wears none, but has full sleeves while Jason goes bare-armed. Robyn has gloves, but they don't cover her fingers, and her upper arms are bare (it leaves me to wonder how worried they were about fingerprints). . Then there are the masks. The men have the same traditional Hunter's mask, but Robyn wears a modified version, with the mouth area bare and the hair free. She shows even more skin, actually, what with her bare midriff and all.
But here I am going over the differences in their wardrobe while they're giving our heroes a really hard time.
The weapons they use against the gargs indicate the time, training, and money they put into their hunt. Seriously, they've probably brought as much technology against the gargs as Xanatos ever did. I'm especially enamored of Raptor, the robotic bird that Jon had and which, unfortunately, gets destroyed and never seen again. I can't say for certain why I like it--it strikes me as a pointlessly complicated hunting implement. Actually, now that I think on it, Raptor is the perfect weapon for Jon--after all, he just tells the thing to attack and then stands passively back while the bird does all his hunting work, as opposed to Jason and Robyn who use their own weapons.
Just before he shoots Angela with the electricity thing, Jason looks at her and narrows his eyes. This leads me to believe that he knew, even before he fired, that she wasn't "the Demon."
Later, in the airship, when one of the Hunter's (Jon, of course) brought up that the "other gargoyles might not be" evil, I was fascinated by this dissension in the ranks, so to speak. I liked that one of the Hunter's was questioning the idea of "all gargoyles" being evil, and I thought that maybe at least one of the Hunter's would end up helping the clan.
Boy, did I pick the wrong Hunter (but that comes later). For now, though, Jason is blinded by his hatred against the gargoyles. Robyn, prudently enough, takes no part in her brothers' "disagreement."
I wasn't quite sure if you guys were going to kill off Angela or not. On the one hand, I felt that you guys had too much development invested in her character to just kill her off like that. Besides, there was no way BS&P would allow it. On the other hand, you guys had surprised me in the past….
And you surprised me here, too, when Goliath swore vengeance on the Hunter's while glaring into the camera, saying, "…and I will KILL them." At that moment, I fully realized how rarely the word "kill" is used in American animation. GARGOYLES only used it once before, to my knowledge (DEADLY FORCE, where Broadway tells Goliath that he "can't kill" Dracon). Consequently, its use here had the desired effect; I knew that something had snapped inside Goliath, and he meant to do precisely what he said. Chilling.
All in all, an excellent start that left me eager for the next episode.
I honestly have no memory of changing the font color. It is, I suppose, easy enough to blame my color deficiency, but the truth is I can tell red from blue. Either it was a call made by our post-production supervisor, Jeffrey Arthur or by Producer/Director Dennis Woodyard (and I either approved or didn't notice) -- or by me and it's just been too long for me to recall that I made that call.
(Note: My ramble is a little patchier this time, most likely the result of spreading it out over a few days).
Puck gives Alex his first magic lesson, and Coldstone gets his personality problem resolved.
The opening in the Himalayas is pretty neat (I love how Coldstone takes out one robot by burrowing through the snow), and, personally, I'm kind of glad you guys didn't do the "Yeti" thing with him here (of course, I have no idea what would have happened in your lost "comic book story" set in the Himalayas (and all you've told us about it so far is that it takes place during the World Tour and features Coldstone) so I have no idea if you were going to do the "Coldstone-pretending-to-be-Yeti" thing or not).
One thing I noticed: the Steel Clan's POV shots are very different from how they were in the first season (there it was green night vision, here it's some sort of red vision). I guess I kind of like the style of the first season better there--just a personal preference.
One thing of note, this is the last appearance of the Steel Clan robots and Xanatos's gargoyle armor in the whole series.
Loved the "Bewitched" reference. Also loved the "gargoyle-teddy bear."
It would have been nice if the mention of the opera "Otello" had made it into the episode, but there's only so much time available.
Somehow, I kind of figured out who "Goliath" and "Hudson" really were before they revealed themselves. Although Puck may do a better Goliath than Proteus, he still doesn't sound quite like Goliath (and he smiles way too much). And, as soon as I guessed who "Goliath" was, it was fairly easy to deduce who "Hudson" was (and notice that he didn't say a word at all the whole time).
Actually, I was able to guess a lot about where things were going, especially when I heard about the "soul transference" bit. And as soon as Coldstone started working without any of his three souls, I kind of figured Puck was the one pulling the strings. Lex getting possessed I hadn't expected, but as soon as it happened, there was really only one character it could have been. And when Coldsteel and Coldfire were revealed, I kind of figured what the ending would be.
So, for me, this became more about character than plot. It was also a great way to listen to the actors performing a different character with the same voice. Kudos to the cast members for their wonderful work.
I, too, noticed that Desdemona seemed more reluctant than Othello to remain in their new bodies. Here, as in HIGH NOON and even in LEGION, she sometimes takes on the role of conscience and voice of reason for Othello. She compliments her mate very well.
And, as in those previous episodes (and RE-AWAKENING) Othello shows himself to be a little more selfish. In the end he tends to make the right decision (albeit with a fair amount of prodding). Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if most people in the world aren't like Othello.
Great little moment: Othello/Broadway: "I had forgotten the warm touch of your hand…the sweet scent of your hair."
Angela/Desdemona: "But…it is not my hair."
And then Iago/Brooklyn arrives to whisper in their ears (isn't that what all Iagos do?). I love his little "Oh, yes, that's a plus" after Othello/Broadway talks about "the evil one" being gone.
Another note: at both the Clock Tower and Lady Liberty, when Broadway/Othello mentions "the evil one," the camera is on Brooklyn. I just noticed that here.
I love it how the ensorcelled Bronx just trots away and plops down next to the bound and gagged Lexington. It's just one of those cases where you can almost feel Lex's frustration.
Looking over your outline, Greg, I find myself rereading the ultimately discarded scene of Iago/Brooklyn hooking Lex up to a death trap and "telling his evil plot." Mostly just because of the brief bit of how he would "use his position as Goliath's right hand to destroy Goliath and rule the clan." I thought this extra bit of plotting was rather interesting because we know so little about Iago's goals beyond taking Desdemona.
Truth be told, he has always intrigued me because, in many ways he is the only "natural-born" evil gargoyle we've met so far in the series. I mean, we see Demona's tragic past and how she was "made a villain" so to speak; Yama was only misguided and foolish, but tries to repent; and Thailog (and even the rest of the clones) were more-or-less created to be what they became. Iago is the only gargoyle we know of who has been evil without any real explanation and for this reason (as well as the fact that he was a villain in their "old life" along with the Archmage) he fascinates me. I would have loved to see more of him in the "DARK AGES" spin-off, and I am hoping to see more of Coldsteel in the comic.
Overall though, comparing the outline to the episode, I'm kind of glad you guys just simplified beats 15 and 16. That added business about the Coldstone shell developing its own personality--while admittedly intriguing--was a bit superfluous (especially since we the audience already know Puck's behind it).
I love Lex's groan, "Twice in one night…". I feel sorry for the poor little guy-ensorcelled, jumped from behind, trussed up, and jumped from behind again! And after all that, he gets possessed himself! Of course, in this case, the new tenant is a pleasant one.
Iago/Brooklyn: "I'm sure she'll be heartbroken at first, but these new bodies should help ease the pain." For me, that is one of the most suggestive lines in the series. And hey, Iago knows how to say "good-bye" in French!
"By the Dragon!" This is the closest we get to any sort of "oath" in the series (well…there's "Jalapena" but I'm not counting that… ;-)). I still wonder what exactly this phrase is referencing.
Alex/Lex unties Hudson and Goliath, dropping them on their heads. Goliath's response: "Well, that's one way to do it." This stands out to me because it's one of the few times Goliath makes a joke or other humorous statement.
Othello/Broadway confronts Iago/Brooklyn by saying, "Brooklyn's body does not belong to you. Give it back!"
A rather hypocritical statement since he himself was seriously considering keeping Broadway's body a bare few moments ago. Now that I think of it, I wonder if Iago might not be referencing that when he retorts, "So that I can return to cyberspace or fade away into nothing? Is that the choice *you* were leaning towards?" Othello/Broadway looks like he's about to hit him, but then just drops him instead.
I love how Iago complains about Brooklyn's "fighting skills." If Iago's in control, shouldn't that mean it's Iago's fighting skills that are being used?
I was very pleased you guys got Coldsteel and Coldfire's voice-actors (Xander Berkeley and C.C.H. Pounder) to do the one or two lines each character had in their actual voice.
Brooklyn: "And this 'scrawny gargoyle' will be waiting!"
Reading over the outline, I was pleased you guys decided to have Brooklyn remember the experience. His line "I remember every creepy thing that jerk made me do" kind of highlights the sort of violation he must have felt at that. As a result, I'm left wondering how much the others remember of their possessions. Lex obviously seems to remember being inhabited by Alex, but what about Broadway and Angela? They did seem at least mildly surprised to "come back to themselves" while in an embrace (not that they seemed upset…).
Lex about Alex passing his lesson: "He had a little help."
I always took this to mean that Alex used Lex's language facilities (as well as motor skills) to properly cast the spell. But I wonder how well Alex understood what he was saying. As a child, I learned the Pledge of Allegiance word-for-word, but for years they were only a collection of words in a certain order. I never really thought about what they actually said. I wonder if it's the same for Alex and the spell.
I love Goliath's tired "Let's go home."
Going back to the outline again, beat 17 has Xanatos being momentarily surprised and/or confused by Owen's explanation that "the Coldstone dilemma has been solved." I never saw that in the actual episode myself. Actually, I've wondered if Xanatos's earlier "Bewitched" reference might not have been just a long shot by Xanatos of planting an idea in Owen's head. Of course, maybe I'm just giving Xanatos way to much credit on that score.
This is a good, solid ep all-around with great characters and performances.
Always take the outlines with a grain of salt, at least. Only the final episode is canon.
And once more, on with the Rambling!
I always found the revelation that this episode was originally supposed to be a two-part season finale kind of interesting. There certainly is a lot here that would work perfectly for a season finale (a mass battle between our heroes and their clones/counterparts, the actual meeting between Demona and Angela), and I will personally admit that I would have LOVED for this to have been a two-parter (there's just so much crammed into this one episode!). On the other hand, it is missing an element that I would consider important to any GARGOYLES season finale: Xanatos.
Sure, he would have been a bit superfluous to this ep, but considering that the season began with him as the "main villain" it seems only natural to me that he should play some part in any finale the season might have.
Anyway, onto the episode itself….
An interesting aspect about the episode's opening shot is that it changes to a POV shot through binoculars. Now, just who was spying on our heroes here? I would have to guess, Thailog, myself. Demona's already encased in her "clever tin can" robbing the Golden Cup (you'd think the government people running the place would realize that hiding in plain sight isn't working anymore).
Demona's exo-frame has a very unique design to it--bubble cockpit, hole for her tail, etc. It's also interesting just for the fact that this is the first time she's used it, and I find myself wondering why. Up until now, she's used spells, a poison dart gun, particle beam cannons, and occasionally a mace. Now here's the exo-frame. Part of the plan, maybe? Oh well, it makes for some great action.
Animation nit: Demona electrocutes Brooklyn, and the little electric aura stays around Demona for the remainder of the fight without seeming to affect anyone else. It is a bit distracting.
I have to admit, I did misread Angela's concern for Brooklyn here, a little bit. I realize I've used the excuse of "falling back on expectations for animated action/adventure shows" before, but it really is my chief explanation for misreading things like this.
I loved the tidbit about gargoyle culture concerning their punishments (nice to finally have that). And I was pleased that Brooklyn was the one who came up with a place to keep Demona, and I knew that it would involve the Mutates. But I didn't know it was the Labyrinth. Why? Because I had still not seen THE CAGE or KINGDOM by this point and had no idea it even existed. Consequently, this was my first view of the "new" Maggie, Claw and Fang (I had seen "new" Talon in UPGRADE). Somehow, I recognized that they were in the old Cyberbiotics underground lab. I also wasn't surprised to discover that one of the Mutates was a bad guy (I saw this coming since the scene in METAMORPHOSIS where the as-yet-unnamed-Fang indicated his enjoyment of his new body). Still, it always drove me crazy that I had missed out on those stories during their first run. Ah, well….
One thing that jumped out at me on this viewing was Elisa's line, "Do you know what you're committing yourself to?" in reference to guarding Demona. It is kind of easy to miss the sheer enormity of the task they are setting for themselves (guarding an immortal sorceress around the clock).
Angela wants to take the first watch--understandable, especially since she hasn't had the same experiences with Demona the others have. Goliath, just as understandably, tries to dissuade her, which only makes her angry. In the end, Hudson showcases why he's the "wise one" by giving Angela the first watch, but with an admonition that Demona "is capable of anything." And it is that warning that Angela flashes back to over THREE MONTHS LATER when she and her clan are facing certain death because of Demona.
When Demona awakens she leaps at Angela and latches onto the bars of her prison. Angela is understandably taken aback--Demona does indeed look ferocious. She's literally climbing the bars, snarling, wings flapping…but her eyes are not glowing. A subtle hint, perhaps, that this part, at least, is an act.
I do find myself thinking that Demona's disbelief over Angela's identity is more real than feigned, even if Sevarius has already clued her in about Angela's parentage. As you've said, Greg, knowing something and experiencing it are two different things.
At this point, Angela actually perks up and starts to tell Demona about Avalon, only for Demona to rant about humans stealing away "our children." Angela tries to disabuse her of that idea and explains that the Princess is a part of her clan "just as you are." It's almost sad how optimistic Angela is about Demona. I can almost hear Angela thinking to herself, "No matter what she's done, I know I'll be the one to redeem her."
Demona, starts trying to win over Angela, even trying to guilt her into it ("If you are *truly* my daughter…").
There is something a little melodramatic about all this…which makes it a wonderful moment when Fang interrupts the mood and observes "You chicks are better than soaps!"
I love the way Fang counts the days.
Demona unleashes the mosquito and suddenly the rest of the mosquito attacks from earlier in the episode take on a more ominous tone.
I loved seeing Sevarius again (why not, it's more Tim Curry!), but Thailog! Ah, that magnificent bastard. On my first viewing, I realized by this point that we would be taking on the clones of the rest of the clan, and was quite pleased by the prospect. A little…"shadow-boxing," shall we say, is always fun.
Actually, it's amazing how calm Sevarius seems around Thailog here, considering that the gargoyle tried to kill him the previous year. Amazing what a briefcase full of money can do. Of course, Sevarius offers the fruits of his experience about "programming" the clones, "Keep it simple. You don't want to end up with another you."
And during this time, Angela is trying to talk to Demona about the latter's crimes. I love Demona's line here: "How can you judge me? You have been hiding on a magical island while I have been living in the real world." Demona may be in the wrong about a LOT of things, but that is a pretty good point.
Demona starts to change (into a human), Fang rushes to watch and after it's over remarks, "Kinky." One would think he'd be used to it by now seeing as he's been her neighbor for FIVE WEEKS!! I guess, like Elisa's reaction to the gargs' awakenings, he never gets tired of it.
Now, I have to dwell on something about this episode that is real easy to miss. It takes place over the course of THREE MONTHS. That's actually a fair amount of time if you think about it. I find myself wondering about Demona and Angela's conversations, what things were like with the other gargoyles when they stood guard (particularly Goliath, Brooklyn and Hudson), Demona's full reaction to the Mutates (man, I would LOVE to see that) and about any of the adventures going on topside.
A lot can happen in three months…then again, a lot of nothing can also happen in three months.
Anyway, eventually the "breakout" occurs and even Fang gets freed. I love his reactions when he thinks Demona's going to fry him. Not just his lines (which are good and already transcribed elsewhere) but also the fact that he tries to hide under his bed sheet! And when Demona frees him, saying that "he's a fool but he might be useful" Fang immediately pipes up, "I can work with that!"
I am intrigued by what appears to be continued tension between Goliath and Talon. When the two track the escapees to the fun house, Goliath tells Talon to stay there while he goes to get reinforcements (I doubt Goliath realized he sounded like he was giving an order). Talon doesn't seem too happy about this arrangement, though he does make the best of it (scouting the place out). When I first saw this, I had left Talon still blaming the gargoyles for his mutation; so seeing them on friendly terms was a bit of a jump for me. This moment sort of "threw me back" as it were to the previous dynamic.
Anyway, our heroes make the classic horror movie mistake of splitting up to enter the not really deserted fun house, and they pay the price.
The clones themselves are a unique bunch in that they are not exact copies of the heroes, and I'm not just referring to coloring here. Burbank looks to have slightly broader shoulders and a narrower waist than Hudson, in addition to more hair and a longer beard (and a mace instead of a sword). Hollywood (and I just KNEW Broadway's clone would be named Hollywood) seems a bit larger than Broadway, and all the clones have bits and pieces of armor that the originals don't have.
Beyond that, the new clones are even different than Thailog. While Thailog may have different skin, hair, and even eye coloring (red instead of white corneas) than Goliath, his pupils are a natural black, his teeth a natural white, and his tongue and mouth a natural red/pink color. The new clones, however, have black teeth (indicative of a black skeleton), off-white pupils (indicative to me, at least, that they might literally see the world differently) and even discolored mouths. In this way, they are even more "freakish" than Thailog. I suppose it has to do with the fact that Thailog's gestation period was nearly a year, while these guys were rushed through in about three months or so.
But I digress….
The good guys are captured, and then shackled where they regain consciousness. Apparently, Thailog and Demona didn't want our heroes dead right away. Demona obviously wanted to show off her "new clan" (and turn Angela towards her side), while Thailog, I have come to believe, was testing Demona. After all, Angela didn't have to be first, and Thailog's little revelation that Demona knew about Angela since the beginning seemed to be a little too informative for it to have been accidental. This of course incenses Angela, who shows that she takes betrayal about as well as either of her parents.
"I hate you." Angela's eyes even glowed while she said it. And it really hurts Demona, who nevertheless will still not let Thailog kill her.
Delilah is revealed, and she is perhaps the most "normal" looking clone we have seen so far. I mean, not only are her teeth, mouth, and pupils the proper colors, even the corneas of her eyes are white! She looks more natural than Thailog, in other words. Since her gestation was the same as the rest of the new clones, I can only guess that Elisa's human DNA had something to do with this.
Leaving that aside for the moment, Delilah is a VERY attractive mixture of her two "mothers," and her very presence has offered us, the fans, endless speculations about Demona's reaction to her (a hybrid of herself and that most hated human) and Thailog's reasoning in creating her (a hybrid of the two loves of Goliath's life). I also love hearing Salli Richardson doing a gargoyle roar.
The worm turns, or in this case Demona does, and sets the heroes free while she goes after Thailog (who manages to do fairly well at first considering who he's up against). The rest of the heroes mix and match their enemies-the only "counterparts" who face off against each other are Talon and Fang (who inadvertently start the fire). An interesting bit here is that, while Talon's electric blasts are the usual blue/white color all the Mutates' blasts have been up to this point, Fang's are a more red/orange color. Not that I'm complaining, I actually kind of like the distinction from an aesthetic point of view (it's kind of like the color-coded lightsabers).
There are actually some fun, comical moments with the "clone wars." Hollywood's expression just before he crashes into the "test your strength" game, and Burbank and Brentwood's crashing into each other (it doesn't just work on robots!) are particular highlights (as well as Brooklyn's rather vehement "It's all over you…FORGERY!" to Malibu).
I do wish we had been able to see more of Angela and Delilah's "cat fight." What can I say; I can be a shallow guy sometimes.
Eventually, our good guys win, though Demona and Thailog do a "did they die?" disappearing act. The clones (who have some kind of slight reverb to their voice) are lost without the one their programming tells them to obey, and the gargs aren't comfortable around them, so Talon takes them in. This makes perfect sense, seeing as how he has turned the Labyrinth into a homeless shelter, and he promises to teach them to think for themselves, "and use verbs" (a nice little bit, that).
Maybe it's because I like Brooklyn, but I was always a little disappointed that Malibu never got any actual lines.
Angela and Goliath have their moment of doubt over Demona's fate, and Angela feels awful that "I hate you" may be the last thing she ever said to her mother. Now, I admit that, since I knew Demona was going to survive, I didn't quite get into this sentiment as much as maybe you guys would have liked me to, but I did like that Goliath mentioned that Demona's love for Angela was "the first sign of goodness that she has shown in a long, long time." Even "a new beginning," perhaps.
This is a really great episode, and I hope my (extremely overlong) ramble does it justice. I just wish it could have been a two-parter--that is the only real complaint I have with this ep, and that only exists because I found out it was originally supposed to be such.
Heck, I wish EVERY episode could have been an hour instead of a half. But whachagonnado?
Okay, I am going to word this very carefully as I know it treads dangerously close to being an idea rather than a question. I've tried *extremely* hard to keep it within the boundaries of what's allowed. Hopefully you'll see where I'm going with all this. First, some statements:
1. Avalon sends you "where you need to be"
2. The Avalon World Tour resulted in heroes around the globe awakening to their destinies as warriors and protector-figures: the werepanthers in Nigeria, Cuchulain in Ireland, Natsilane in Canada, the Golem in Prague, etc.
3. There are currently several heroes stationed around the world. Such a collective force could come in handy if something...bad were to happen.
So, my very articulatly-worded questions are as follows:
1.a. Is Avalon a conscious entity?
b. If so, did it send Goliath and company to these particular destinations with the specific purpose of activating these heroes?
2. Does Avalon (or alternatively, you) have a master-plan in reawakening these heroes that went beyond protecting people on a global scale?
Okay, I think that should pass the censors. Thanks!
(PS, the comic came through the mail this week and I can't wait for more! From America all the way to Christchurch, New Zealand. Thanks Amazon!)
1a. I'm not going to answer this beyond what you can gather from the series.
b. It sent them where they NEEDED to be.
2. I have a master plan for all these characters, yes.
For your Gargoyles Future Spinoff, was the idea of Brooklyn travelling into the future to help against the alien invaders from the old Superboy and Supergirl comics where they travel into the future and join the Legion of Super Heroes?
I can't deny that as a possible influence -- since of course I'm familiar with the Legion -- but I wasn't specifically thinking of that. The TimeDancer idea came to me before I thought to include Brooklyn in the cast of what eventually became Gargoyles 2198. It just seemed to make sense that if Brook was bouncing around, that one of the eras he'd bounce to is 2198.
I don't usually respond-ramble, but I feel kind of compelled to now that we're running out of show. But also because the Hunter's Moon tryptich is probably my favorite episode of the series.
Unfortunately, I first saw the show twelve years ago (I was ten), and I've watched these episodes a million times since then, so it's difficult to know what I was thinking the time around. It's like the Empire Strikes Back problem; you really can't go back to not knowing how that one ends.
Probably why I'm looking forward to Gargoyles #3.
What impresses me most about Hunter's Moon is how it takes several different storylines to their logical extremes. The last thing I expected in the final episode was to see a vengeful, homocidal Goliath. Very ballsy of you guys to break out a new side of the lead protagonist in the final episode of the series. I've certainly always respected the willingness of the series to demonstrate that these are dynamic characters. I do remember what I was thinking the first time I heard Goliath's last line in part 1, and it blew my mind. To be honest, it starts as a standard empty-threatish cliffhanger line, and I mostly expected it to end with something benign like "And I will make them pay." In fact, that's exactly what I expected next. It is always appreciated when television manages to surprise, so kudos on that last line. Superb.
Demona's plan is also the logical extension of what she's tried to do in already, first to eradicate the humans at Wyvern then to destroy New York. Just like Goliath's concept of what he should protect keeps growing, so does Demona's concept of what she should destroy. I love it.
A final episode usually has a fair amount of hype to live up to, in terms of both scope and closure. (I've always thought of TNG as an example of one that did it right, but that might just be my opinion. I'm also a fan of The Fugitive finale.) Hunter's Moon raised the stakes LOGICALLY to their extreme, so it manages to feel like an episode of the series and a worthy finale at the same time.
Thanks. We tried!