A Station Eight Fan Web Site
I haven't got the newest issues of the comic yet, I have to wait until they are available on Amazon. But in the meantime I wanted to write while the queue is open.
I watched Gargoyles when I was a kid and I really liked it, especially the mythology and medieval history episodes such as City of Stone. At the time, although I enjoyed City of Stone (and it is still my favorite episode) I thought it was peculiar to depict Macbeth as the hero. Of course, now I know that City of Stone is actually more historically accurate than Shakespeare's play.
Unfortunately I only saw a few episodes before it was cancelled/moved, and I didn't remember much of it. I'd pretty much forgotten about the show years ago, until I went to the Gargoyles panel at Convergence last year and was reminded about it. That panel was a good idea to tell people about the DVDs and comic, and to encourage old fans to get back into the show. But unfortunately for me, I hadn't known yet about things like Owen/Puck which you revealed at the panel.
I've gotten the two DVD sets so far (with some help from my parents) and having watched all the episodes so far, plus the rest on Toon Disney, I have to say how great a show Gargoyles is/was. It's like the old Batman and X-Men shows in being much more than just a cartoon. Of course the major draw for me is the gargoyles themselves which are a very interesting and appealing race, and visually pretty awesome. I've always loved the way gargoyles look, physically. I especially like their feet and talons, for some reason. Wings are also good. I also remember how I was very happy when Goliath came to Avalon and discovered that the species was not extinct after all. I love that the gargoyles from different parts of the world are the sources of various mythical creatures, and I'm very curious what the Chinese, Korean, New Olympian, and Loch Ness gargoyles look like.
I'm looking forward to getting a hold of issues 2 and 3 so I can get up to date but I also have some questions about the Gargoyles universe that are not answered in the archives. The setting is a pretty interesting one and I'm curious about some things. I don't want to flood the queue all of a sudden so I'm only starting with a single question:
Why did you choose to make the gargoyles an entirely "natural" species instead of being inherently magical like the Third Race? (natural is in quotes because, I suppose magic is a natural part of the Garg universe) What I mean is, why did you choose to have biological explanations for their evolution, wings, stone sleep, and great strength, instead of using magical explanations? Was it just more to your taste or was there a more specific reason, thematically or within-the-setting, that you didn't want them to be a magical species?
(I'm not trying to say your biological explanations don't work, I'm just curious about your choice from a thematic point of view)
We didn't want to make them inherently magical for a number of reasons. We didn't want them to be a "created" race. Creatures that could be woven and unwoven by magic. Or brought to life from stone and returned to unlife from stone. You get the idea. We wanted, in essence, to put them on equal footing with humans in terms of inheriting the Earth, so to speak. Creationists or Evolutionists or IntelligentDesignists or whateverelseists should see Gargoyles and Humans as equivalent. Whatever method was used to create humans (choose your poison) is the same method that was used to create Gargoyles.
There's an essay by Stephen J. Gould called something like "Equality is a contingent fact of human history". It's just worked out biologically that all sentient creatures are the same species Homo Sapiens Sapiens. But how would we deal if there were another species...? Gould probably influenced me more than I realized, come to think of it.
I just bought my copy of Gargoyles #3 today, and very much enjoyed the continuation of the story past "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" at last.
There were a great many treats in it. I enjoyed Agent Hacker's return. I'd wanted to see what would happen after the revelation that he was a member of the Illuminati (especially regarding his interactions with Matt), and now we get to see some of it. Matt clearly does not trust him still (and I can't say that I blame him). What got my attention all the more was that Hacker's description of the Illuminati's agenda towards the gargoyles differed according to whom he was talking to, in such a way as leads me to suspect that he's lying all three times about what the Society *really* wants with the gargoyles. (I certainly think that he was lying about the Illuminati wanting the gargoyles wiped out; I doubt that they're that wasteful.) I liked the "Thirty-six" "Thirty-two" greetings (at first, I thought that they were some sort of "identification number" within the Society, but when Hacker used the same numbers in speaking with Xanatos and Castaway, I abandoned that idea).
I was amused that you had Elisa speaking with both Officer Morgan *and* Jason Canmore in the events leading up to her talk with Goliath; am I correct in assuming that you were deliberately teasing there everyone who'd read your remarks about the "Double Date" story at "Ask Greg"?
I'm amazed that Elisa's sitting so calmly on the battlements during her talk with Goliath (even if she's clearly too busy thinking about other matters at the time); if I was up on the top of the Eyrie Building, I wouldn't dare even approach them, but would probably be clinging onto anything solid in the middle of the tower's platform!
I smiled at Talon's cry of "Send in the Clones!" (I guess that we all knew that somebody would have to say it at some point), and the omission of Fang's name when Al was explaining the Mutates' backstory. (Too bad he wasn't there to comment on it!) And Thailog makes a great return at the very end.
Other things that stand out to me: Alex in his little gargoyle suit (very cute), Hudson planning to take Bronx somewhere else during the party (a wise decision on his part, I believe), Xanatos's mysterious invitation to the White House (I'm looking forward to seeing how that develops), the new character in the Labyrinth (or is she really new? I'd say more but the "no original ideas" rule discourages me from voicing my suspicions about her as yet), Demona retrieving the Praying Gargoyle's crystal, Brooklyn's response to Delilah, and Castaway showing himself to clearly have much more sense than his "Goliath Chronicles" counterpart.
All in all, a wonderful continuation of the story. I'm looking forward to #4.
Hacker/Illuminati. I'm glad you got that. I was a little afraid that it would read as if the LAST statement Hacker made was the true one.
Morgan/Jason. I was teasing a little (meta-fictionally), but basically when it came time to write the story, I realized I NEEDED both of them to get Elisa where I needed her to go. Again, I was worried that it still might not be convincing. But it felt pretty right to me.
By 1492, the year Columbus sailed to the "New World", were there any gargoyle clans left in North America? What I mean by North America is present day Mexico, United States of America, and Canada.
I'm not answering that at this time.
What happens when or if an of-age female gargoyle does not mate during the breeding season? Does she lay an unfertilized egg, or cycle more like humans do, or something else entirely? And if something else, what?
I honestly don't know. Perhaps at the next Gathering we can bring it up in the Biology panel. I'm making sure I can be at that one this time.
With particular reference to act 4 scene 3, is it believable that in the space of one scene Iago is able to convince Othallo that Desdemona is unfaitful
Depends on the performance, I would think. I've been convinced of it many times.
I was watching "Hellboy: Blood and Iron" on television when I noticed that the businessman Oliver Trumble is almost identical to Xanatos, differing only in a few personality traits. Do you think Gargoyles could have had some influence on the character, or is just a coincedence?
I don't know. I haven't seen the movie myself, though some good friends worked on it. I don't know whether the character you're referencing pre-dates Gargoyles or not.
By the time of the French revolution, were there any gargoyle clans still living on mainland Europe?
I'm not answering that at this time.
dph's Review of Comic #3
Artwork is much better.
I loved the make-up of the Gargoyles Task Force, especially Matt's opening remark about their primary objective. Aside from Bluestone, Maza, and Morgan, will you tell us which precints the rest of the police are from?
Love the nice bit of continuity with Martin Hacker showing up. Why the numbers "36" and "32"?
I loved how it was Morgan who approached Elisa, but wouldn't it be a little problematic being that Elisa Maza outranks Morgan Morgan?
It's nice to finally hear about Elisa's wants for a long-term relationship really are.
I enjoyed Xanatos's conversion with Martin Hacker. More about that later, though.
I liked Elisa hinting to look around at Deliliah.
I loved the nice bit of continuity with Demona showing up.
I loved the nice way of explaining the backstory of the mutates and the clones to the new readers.
Poor Brooklyn. ;) He gets shafted by own his clan leader when looking for a date. ;)
Nice to see Hacker checking in on Castaway. If the quarrymen ever get raided, I just hope Hacker isn't caught with Castaway.
Anyways, back to one of my earlier questions. Are the Illuminati Society deliberately to manipulate the gargoyles task force, Xanatos's plans, and the quarrymen to divert attention from something even bigger going on?
Nice to see Thailog back and fully recovered.
Nice laying out of plot threads for future development.
Most are from the 23rd. Travanti's been Morgan's partner for years. (I think you first saw him in "Temptations", but don't hold me to that.)
As for the numbers, you'll just have to wait ... heh heh heh And as for the Illuminati... NO, WAIT!! STOP!! I WASN'T GOING TO TALK! DON'T SH--
Gargoyles #3 - A review
Well, that was certainly a let down. Fox getting all weepy, she was so out of character. The real Fox would kick ass and take names, till she found out where her son was. And Pat Doyle was the most pointless villain I've ever seen...
... whoops, this isn't "Ransom"
The first new canon story in eleven years, and I enjoyed every page of it. I have not been this excited for a comic book in a long time, and I read a lot of comic books.
Clearly part one, and thus some set-up needed, and having to remind readers who the Clones and the Mutates are and where they came from. But, understandable. Very understandable.
I loved Martin Hacker in this issue, playing everyone, telling everybody what they want to hear. Matt, of course, does not seem to trust him at all.
Castaway has a nice appearance here, behaving sane and not like a raving lunatic, as many in the fandom seem to think he behaves as 24/7. I'll blame TGC for that. Here, he was rational, cool, and wisely giving an order for the Quarrymen to be unarmed this night.
BTW, is that the same Chaz that was one of Fang's flunkies in "Kingdom"?
Already knew Xanatos would be visiting the White House thanks to the solicitations, should be interesting to see what he's up to.
Jason's cameo was very welcome, and I'm ruling him out as Elisa's date. Morgan actually asked her out, Jason is handcuffed to a bed and obviously bitter. Hope to see more of him.
Goliath & Elisa - The emotional meat of the story. Their talk did not disappoint. Elisa was nothing but reasonable anr realistic. This is not like dating and hoping for a future with someone of a different race and/or religion. Goliath and Elisa are different species. It would not make sense if she wasn't having second thoughts.
Nice cliffhanger ending, with Thailog bursting into the Labyrinth, guns blazing. Makes me all the more eager to read #4... gotta wait till May.
Poor Brooklyn, having to watch Broadway and Angela make nice, and then try to work up the nerve to ask Delilah out, only for Goliath to beat him to her. Though, the way Goliath looks, he'd probably have preferred to let Brooklyn have her.
"Thirty-six", "Thirty-two". That's gotta be a reference to something, I just know it.
And, Demona. Great to see her again, she's always been my favorite. Even if it's only for one page, and with no dialogue. Aw well, I'm hopeful we'll see her again very soon.
Thanks for the read Greg. May can't come soon enough.
Yep, Castaway's talking to Lou about Chaz. (Good catch.) You can see why the Quarrymen might appeal to them. Look for Lou and Chaz appearances (subtle ones) in issue #4. And you thought you couldn't wait for May before!
THE GREEN-EYED GARGOYLE
Demona has an interesting moment at the end of "The Mirror" when she marvels at the warmth of the sun. If you don't mind me reading into it a little, it's a loaded statement. It implies a jealousy of humans that I have a hard time equating with what I consider her standard jealousies, e.g. "they outnumber us," "they force us out of our homes," "history has given them more lucky breaks," etc. She's usually able to exhibit these other jealousies while retaining her sense of moral and physical superiority ("the gift of being a gargoyle," as she calls it in front of Puck).
But this new jealousy shows a desire of something that is *inherently* human. The capacity to see or feel the sun is something that is (or should be, sans sorcery) completely incompatible with being a gargoyle. It would be like a human lamenting the fact that he wasn't born with wings; it's kind of a futile gesture (which is why I also find Hudson's wistful comment at the end of the episode so odd). It implies for the first time that not only has Demona desired what the humans have accomplished or acquired, but that she may, on a very subconscious level, have wished that she had been born human....been born onto the winning team, the side with the upper hand, the strategically superior side. If this desire did exist before this moment at the window, it's certainly not something she would ever admit to, even to herself.
DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR
This kind of racial jealousy notwithstanding, I suppose there's another interpretation of her "reverence" of the sun. Knowing that no other gargoyle had ever experienced what she was now experiencing, I'm sure Demona felt a new kind of superiority over all of her own kind now, as well. To know the sun as she now did, unlike every other gargoyle since the beginning of time, must have been very empowering--adding a physical element to the moral superiority she already feels over Goliath and his clan (who are, as far as she knows, the rest of her entire race at this point). I'm sure that the 15 seconds before she looked in the mirror were a very religious experience for her.
And this new kind of Messiah-esque superiority gives new meaning to the password she chooses in "City of Stone." It certainly *is* usually lonely at the top.
Now I wish that some of this stuff had occurred to me before the Demona "alone" contest way back when.
Anyway, these are just my musings. Any thoughts? Which side, if either, do you fall on?
Wow. That's a great post. Seriously. I love it. And I like both interpretations. I find them both very convincing, and I hardly think they're mutually exclusive either.
I'm trying to remember if any of that was in my head eleven/twelve years ago. I do think there's always a bit of worship wrapped up in our fear and loathing of the other. Anything we attribute that much power to has got to hold some awe. And Demona's superiority-complex is well-documented in the show, I think. But the specific light you shined on that moment above... I'm not sure I ever looked at it quite that way before or quite that second way before either.
Keep up the musings, skeeJay. That was enlightening.
Howcome there's still been no word on Season 2 Volume 2? I can't speak for everyone here, but I've loved this show since I was 4 years old. I didn't really get to start seriously watching it until I was a bit older. I understand that the sales on the other dvds were not as high as what Disney wanted, but what does that tell us? Most of the time all Disney is interested in, is squeezing every last penny out of every person they can. So the sales could've been high enough to do the rest of Season 2 and Season 3. But still, what of the true fans? I've heard that some of the fans just didn't spread the word or just didn't buy the dvds. But what of the fans that did buy them? I went and bought season 1 and Season 2 volume 1. I can promise that I WOULD buy Season 2 volume 2 and Season 3 if they were released. Plus being a hardcore Star Trek fan, I also have a special loyalty to Gargoyles with having so many Star Trek actors voicing characters on Gargoyles. I'm not trying to demand the rest of the series right this second. But I still really want to at LEAST see the rest of season 2 out on dvd. Do you think that the second half of season 2 and season 3 will ever come out? I think Disney should finish what they started. I mean it would be different if Gargoyles had been on for years and had like 7 seasons or something with full 26 episode seasons. But it only had 3! 2 of those seasons only having 13 episodes. Disney has so much money as it is, I don't think asking for the rest of Gargoyles is really asking all that much...
Benji, you are preaching to the converted.
I'd love to get at least the second half of Season Two. But right now, I don't even have a liason at BVHE. (There's been quite a bit of turnover there over the years.)
Again, I'm not BLAMING the fans -- particularly the hardcore fans, who have been so great. But it doesn't change the simple fact that the DVDs didn't sell enough to MAINTAIN BVHE's intense interest. So now we have to get their attention all over again.
You can complain all you want about how it SHOULD be. I'm simply trying to tell you how it IS.
1a)Do you know at what point the Ishimuran clan was the last gargoyle clan living in Japan?
1b)if so, by what point?
1c)If the answer to 1b makes this question obsolete, please ignore it: During World War 2, were there any gargoyle clans living in Japan outside of Ishimura?
1a. I honestly haven't done enough research to be able to answer this question yet.
1b. See above.
1c. I doubt it, but I'm not committing to that answer yet.
Not so much a question as an exclaimation! AAAAHHHH! THAILOG'S BACK! (Which was what I said in the store too) I waited outside my local comic store for Issue #3 until they opened and I am pleased to say that I was not dissapointed. I cannot wait for issue #4 (and yet sadly I must) I also cannot wait until Pigeon Forge. (Which reminds me, I still haven't submitted my Journal from Gathering '06) That was my first Gathering.
Oh wait, I guess I do have a quetion: Where are Hudson and Bronx off too? (I have a guess...)
Stone Warriors Rule-Chip
Sorry, Chip, but you'll have to wait until issue #4 to find that out.
Wow. It seems like I'm posting the first issue #3 review here. Cool. :D
Thank you for the first (and the first of many more to come) canon Gargs story in 11 years. It is really great.
Okay, enough of the euphoric gratitude and onto the review.
STORY: It was great. Top-notch writing done here. I felt for Goliath, going through that discussion with Elisa, and though I was in a slight state of "Arrrrrrgh....!" with her there, I could also kind of understand where she was coming from. Looking forward to seeing how this will get resolved later on, Greg. Moving along, it was great seeing Demona again. Ditto with Talon and Maggie (though they're not my favorites, I still didn't care. It is the 1st canon story in over a decade and I embrace every element of it.), along with the clones. And is it just me, or is Brooklyn starting to have a thing for Delilah now? She says "Hello" to him, and the next couple of panels just make it seem like he was aggravated with Goliath beating him to the punch. *sighs* Poor guy. Brooklyn just can't get a break. Well, at least until 'Timedancer' comes along, that is.
ART: The artwork is great here. The characters seem to be drawn well, though they looked... off... in some panels, I was able to let it go, b/c it was a rare oddity. Great little touches put in there (i.e. Alex's gargoyle costume.) that were cool. Talon was... okay-looking, but it's still early in the series (comic-wise, anyway) so I'm sure he'll improve design-wise. That close-up of Thailog's leering grin in the last panel gave me the willies. *shivers* Of course, I loved it. :) Hell, just the cover alone had me stoked. I felt like a carnivorous (sp?) dino at a McDonald's. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
Hindsight, this issue gets a perfect 10 out of me. The art could still use some work (Matt looked weird in his first panel, and Talon was okay for a 1st time appearence.), but the story captured my interest in the beginning, broadened it in the middle, and had me on the edge of my seat at the end. I definitely can't wait for #4. Kudos for the great writing, Greg. I'll buy you a soda or something at the next con for that.
I picked up the book myself yesterday, and was kinda psyched and yet frustrated, cuz I now can't wait to see your response to issues 4 and 5 (and 6 and 7). I'm scripting issue #8 now (having also completed Gargoyles: Bad Guys #1). That's the curse of being ahead. Just as you guys have to wait to see the stuff, I have to wait FOR you to see it all.
Are changelings called to the Gathering?
Probably depends on what their status was pre-diaspora, i.e. 1001 years ago.
Brooklyn seems to be the one character most synonymous with the troubled teen, teen angst if you will. Like many human teens, Brooklyn has been seen dealing with his share of depression derived from a feeling of loneliness; seen in episodes like Temptation, Journey, and episodes featuring Maggie. Even though he is surrounded by family he still feels distant, this is made even clearer when he takes on the leadership role during the world tour. He seems to feel even more alone in Journey, especially now that Angela has chosen Broadway. My questions would be:
Where do you see Brooklyn's character going from the ep. Journey? The episode seems to be setting something up...
What other issues or hardships do you see him facing?
Will his relationship with the other members of the clan change in the coming comic issues, if they haven't already?
Thank you for your time.
1. Brooklyn is having a hard time now. And things will get worse before they get better.
2. Little things. ;)
3. Everything evolves, in my opinion, and Brooklyn's relationships are no different.
If I seem a bit vague, it's intentional. With new issues coming out every other month, I hate to spoil more than I already have.
Wow. They said it couldn't be done! But I did it! I caught up!!!!!
The ASK GREG queue is empty! I'm going to take a week or so off. Then we will open the queue again in time for the release of issue #3 of the Gargoyles comic book on March 28th. How long we leave it open will depend on how quickly the site floods.
I'll talk about this more when we open, but please question responsibly.
Hi Greg, Happy New Year. Did you get Gargoyles Season One and Season Two, Volume One on DVD at Amazon.com to increase sales to get Season Two, Volume Two released? Thank you.
There are no current plans to release Season Two, Volume Two. We have to continue spreading the word. I have not given up. Don't you give up either.
If Goliath and Elisa had chidren what would they name them?
I have no response to this question. Sorry.
This is less serious than my last post.
It had occured to me the other day while watching the Green that the Guatamalan clan and all the other clans take names. Some of them such as the Griff's clan have had contact for some time with humans, but what's Zafiro excuse. Is it only a Wyvern Clan tradition, not a gargoyle tradition across cultures, to remain nameless?
Only the four pendant wearers had names. Unfortunately, only the four pendant wearers were still alive.
Is there any significance to loincloth color for the gargs? Goliath and Hudson, both leaders, have brown, whereas the Trio has blue.
None that I know of.
I don't have an actual question, I just want to say that the first episode of Gargoyles aired on my birthday (not my FIRST birthday, one of the ones that came later), so I wanted to thank you for the birthday present, Greg.
You're welcome. And Happy Birthday.
I've been a fan of Gargoyles since the show first came out, and that hasn't changed. I know Broadway and Angela end up together, but early on I got the impression that Broadway sort of had a crush on Elisa. (IE, showing up randomly at her place to grab a meal or watch a movie, and so on) Was that in any way true, or was my thirteen-year-old self just reading too much into it at the time?
I think Broadway really liked Elisa -- and appreciated her... uh... feminine influence. But I don't think he ever had a sexual interest in her.
You mentioned in response to a recent question from DPH that Oberon overthrew Queen Mab and married Titania after he fathered Merlin. Did I read this correctly? I certainly found it intriguing, since I'd always assumed that Oberon took over from Mab long before Merlin's birth. (I suppose that this also means, again if I read your response correctly, that Oberon wasn't cheating on Titania after all when he begat Merlin.)
I take it that this also means that Shakespeare's portrayal of Oberon and Titania as a married couple in Theseus's time was an anachronism in the Gargoyles Universe? (Though it's probably no worse than the fact that Bottom and his fellow amateur actors seem more like Elizabethan Englishmen than ancient Athenians.)
Yes, I see the era-combining of Theseus and a married Oberon/Titania as being fairly Xena-esque in its anachronism.
Hi greg ... answer this to me:
For that the equipment(team) atlantis was to francia ... has connection with the gargoyles the history?
Um... I'm really sorry, but I can't figure out what you're asking here.
But perhaps if you checked out the Team Atlantis Archive here at ASK GREG, you'd find your question already answered.