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Greg said:
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Shan responds:
You're right on both counts. I do remember having fallen asleep and just woken up in time to see the "Double Jeapordy" episode. Probably thought I remembered more than I really did, both about what I had just seen and Angela's situation. Lousy excuse though. I really should have researched better before asking a question of such an involved level (re: attempting to compare Thailog and Angela).
No biggie. Glad you're interested.
Why didn't Thailog and Demona clone Angela?
Demona didn't want a clone of Angela, she wanted Angela. So she never released a mosquito when Angela was guarding her cell. That meant that Thailog and Sevarius didn't have the option.
when Puck transforms the human population to gargs why is it that Elisa and the three teen girl gargs in the subway not have brow ridges or horns of any kind? every other gargoyle we've seen except for the English gargs had either horns or brow ridges or both, but these transformed humans had neither. in fact, besides the pointed ears and color difference (which Elisa didn't even have) their bodies from the neck up looked very human, not gargoyle. was it cuz you wanted these characters to be physically attractive to human viewers even as gargs? cuz i think physically Desdemona is more attractive than Demona or Angela and Des has big old horns, so why make these characters as gargs so human looking?
would you have objected to the animators giving Elisa a beak or a frill or any of the other non human features of gargs?
Yes, I would have objected to Elisa getting a beak, because she wouldn't have looked viserally like Elisa. Other changes that were less significant would not have bothered me.
However, I loved the design they came up with and didn't question it.
As for the girls in the subway. MINOR, minor characters. There wasn't as much time to do all this stuff as you seem to think. We just had to get it done.
Don't read too much into it though. We all think that Desdemona is attractive. Frank in particular likes drawing attractive females. I think Demona and Angela and Elisa are pretty hot too. Among other characters.
before he caught Angela, had Sevarius found any proof to support his theory of a garg clan living in Loch Ness?
if yes, what did he find?
No. Her presence generated that theory, as I recall.
This has both an apology and a question. Apparently you answered my recently posted question previously, to Aaron, some time ago. The problem is that I did not see Thailog's archive (somehow my eye missed it that time) and only one for the Clones. The answer I wanted was in Thailog's archive but not in the Clones archive. Therefore, I thought I was asking a new question.
But I've also figured out what bothers me about Goliath's "he is my son" response. If, as you said in your response to Aaron, Goliath feels responsible and wants to bring Thailog into the fold -- where he told Angela she should see the clan as her parents -- should Goliath have said instead "he is the clan's son" or "he is our son" (though THAT would have been odd, since he's talking to Elisa!).
Is that taking it personal attributable to Goliath's personality then? Would most Gargs have said "Thailog is the clan's son" or "He is of my blood. He is one of the clan"???
You're taking this stuff out of context, as you yourself indicates. The fact that he didn't semantically state it EXACTLY as you might wish he had, is unimportant. You get the idea.
Really, I think you're splitting hairs.
I just got done watching "Double Jeapordy," and in it Goliath emphasizes to Elisa that he must stay on the rig and talk to/rescue Thailog because "he is (of?) my blood. He is my son."
However, later on he meets his daughter Angela, but doesn't realize the connection at first. After Sevarius clues her in about her biological parents (Goliath and Demona) and Angela starts pressing the point with Goliath, Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan. It is not until Elisa's mother and Goliath have the heart to heart about children sometimes needing special attention that Goliath and Angela begin to bond more directly, if I'm not mistaken.
But with Thailog, Goliath wants to reach out and make a bond almost from the outset.
Is it the circumstances of Thailog's creation that make Goliath take more responsibility for Thailog from the get-go versus Angela, or is it (though certaintly not her fault) that the fact Angela is also Demona's child somehow alienates Goliath more at first? Is it something else entirely? I found the difference in attitudes striking.
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Later, he NEVER denies her as his child. He simply is uncomfortable with her focus on him as her biological father. This also mixes in guilt -- survivors guilt this time. And a healthy fear that if she responds this way to him being her biological father, then how will she respond when and if she learns that Demona is her biological mother. If she had simply been calling him father from the get go, he'd have had no problem. But she didn't until she got word from Sevarius about biology. That's what troubled him. She wasn't thinking like a gargoyle. When "Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan" that's not just a means of putting her off, it's not just something to say. That's how he was raised. That means something to him.
In any case, the Thailog and Angela situations are so widely different, it's really comparing apples and oranges. But I certainly don't see any inconsistencies in Goliath's behaviour.
1) Given that most gargoyles have a desire to feel the warmth of the sun, wasn't Goliath or Angela tempted to ask for a chance at wearing a Guatimalan sun amulet, if only for a short time? If so, did their politeness outweigh their desire?
One more for the Guatimalan Gargs. 2) I Don't know if it's true, but I heard somewhere that the clan had a lot of eggs. I don't see how it could be more than 2 eggs, for 2 pairs of Gargs, unless the bigger clan was massacered pretty recently. So is that the case?
1. Tempted briefly, perhaps. But they knew the amulets weren't toys or trifles. So, yes, too polite to ask.
2. Yes. Watch the episode, it makes that fairly clear.
I'm not sure if this was ever asked but did Angela tell her Rookery siblings that Demona was her mother, If so where they in shock about it?
Well, they didn't really know Demona, except as that garg who attacked them while under a spell. So it held less significance from an "oh my god, Demona!" standpoint.
Also, I'm sure they all have mixed feelings about the whole biological parenting thing. I'm not sure that Angela did tell them that Goliath was her biological father. That would seem too much like unseemly bragging. (So maybe for that reason alone, she didn't mention Demona either.) At any rate, they all would have thought of Goliath and Demona as Clan Parents.
1) Will Angela and Broadway raise their kids like humans, by only two parents, or will they be raise like gargoyles, in a collective rookery?
2) If so, will that trend continue into the future?
3) What about Brooklyn and Katana's children will they raise their children collectively or individually?
1. Like gargs.
2. Generally.
3. Nash will be raised individually, initially, or communally if you consider that his TimeDancing parents represent the complete community of adults. Tachi will also get some individual rearing, because B&K will be the only parents in range. But both kids will get a lot of community parenting from the Manhattan Clan.
At some point at the Gathering, I overheard you telling some lucky fan or fans when Brooklyn learned to read. I was dashing off somewhere, probably trying to chase down Kanthara again (whom I finally caught on Monday-- Hi Kanth!), and I didn't get to eavesdrop on the whole thing. It sounded fascinating, and like part of a larger question about which gargs learned to read when. I sure wish I knew the answer, and I'd bet money that your other faithful readers want to know too. So...
We know when Hudson and Braodway learned to read-- they started right after "Lighthouse on the Sea of Time." When did the other members of the Manhattan clan learn to read?
Thatnk you for your time and I hope everybody pre-registers for the Gathering 2002-- I did!
Thank you, Mary. I believe Brooklyn learned to read shortly after awakening in the twentieth century. I believe Goliath learned from Demona in the tenth century. I believe Demona learned from the Archmage. I believe Lex learned in the tenth century too. Angela was taught by the Magus.
(Lots of fun tidbits always get revealed at the Gathering.)
Another interesting thing to think about: For brief periods of time, Angela has had both Macbeth and Thailog as stepfathers. *Grin* Angela's family is somewhat dysfunctional, is it not?
Whose isn't?
Last night I was watching 'Hunter's Moon, Part II' on Toon Disney. Since it's definately one of my favorite episodes, I tried to spot all the stuff I'd missed when on previous viewings. I was delighted by what I found!
It was in the scene right after when Elisa gives Angela CPR. In a short time afterwards dawn comes. What I noticed was that just before they turn to stone, Broadway moves beside where Angela is lying and takes her hand. It was happening in the background and no attention was called to it, but I thought that was incredibly sweet! I really loved it. Was that another hint that Broadway and Angela would end up together? If it was, it was a VERY nice way to do so. :-)
Another question about Hunter's Moon, Part II: When Goliath is just outside Elisa's window, seeing all that happens within (My original reaction to Elisa and Jason was *GASP!* "OHMYGOD, NO, OHMYGOD, NO, OHMYGOD, NO, OHMYGOD, NO, OHMYGOD, NO OHMYGOD, NO!" So on and so forth), could he hear what was being said? I couldn't tell.
And I'd like to take a brief moment to say thanks for creating a show with characters that can endear themselves with little background actions and that make me care SO MUCH that its hero gets the girl!
1. Yes. As soon as Gary Sperling and I decided (while working on Turf) that Broadway and Angela would wind up together, we tried to show their relationship building -- in subtle ways.
2. Yes, he could hear. But in Soap Opera fashion, he left before he heard it all. To our credit, even the stuff he missed wasn't exactly equivocal.
You're welcome. Thanks for watching.
1. what spinoffs would be see Gabriel and Opheila in?
2. what is the relationship between Angela and Opheila?
3. when Opheila hatched do you imagine she had that head frill or do you think it grew in later?
4. how would you describe Opheila since we've seen so little of her?
1. Gargoyles for sure. Maybe Pendragon. Big maybe on 2198. Maybe TimeDancer.
2. Sisterly.
3. She had a little one.
4. I'd start by spelling her name right.
ok, from what you've told us, Angela and Broadway will raise their children in human fashion, being their children's only parents, but you've also said that Lex and other gargs of certain ages will be the parents of their children? how will their children be raised, from a biological standpoint or a rookery standpoint or in a combination of these ways?
Yes.
Greg,
Hey here are some questions
1) Will Broadway and Angela's kids know that those two are there biological parents?
2) Will Broadway be more of a traditionalist in the sense that he would want the clan to raise the children, or will he want to raise his children as his own? I would think Angela want want to do the a latter.
3)Will Broadway and Angela see eye to eye on the parenting proccess?
Thanx
1. Not necessarily. Artus is more likely to know than Gwen or Lance. Only because there are fewer garg parents in the castle early on.
2. Both Broadway and Angela will lean toward the Gargoyle Way. I understand why you think Angela would favor the human approach, but I think you're misinterpreting things. Keep in mind how she was raised. Three parents. Many siblings. There's a certain fascination with biology which I think is "human" and natural. But ultimately, I think love for the "eggs" would win out with her. How can she possibly love one "egg" more than another, just because she laid one.
3. On everything? Doubt it. Generally? Yes.
since Angela has had an interest in gargoyle parentage and has a close relationship with Gabriel has see perhaps guessed that Gabriel's parents are Othello and Desdemona? she had to know that they had a child on Avalon, did she think through the next step and guess at that child?
Probably.
does demona have any other childern besides angela?
nope
What were your plans for Goliath and Angela ?
Extensive.
Hey, I a question about Angela (big shock there)
(1) Do you think she'd ever be interested in playing guitar or any other type of musical intsrument? I mean, I guess the only-having-4-fingers thing might make that a little hard, but whatever.
(2)What about art? She seems like an art chic to me...at least an art buff if not an artist.
(3) How does she keep that skimpy outfit so clean? You'd think all that running around in a tan jumpsuit would get a girl dirty! heh heh
This is the time on Schrpockets when we dance.
I know you dislike hypotheticals, Greg, but maybe you'll find this one as acceptable: If Angela wasn't traveling with her father, meaning if she and Goliath were not biologically related, would she have even wondered who her parents were? Thanks.
---Ytt
I doubt it. It was Sevarius' DNA report that got her thinking about it. And she didn't raise the question right away. It just began to build in her mind.
On the other hand, I think it wouldn't have taken her too long to start looking at Goliath as a father figure. And in fact (biology aside) he was one of her clan fathers. And really, the only one she was likely to ever meet. (With the possible exception of Coldstone.)
oh, and also in the age of characters list you said that Yama is 29 and Sora is 19. their mates, and i thought there were never mates from different generations, Broadway and Angela being the exception. i figured that gargs mated among their rookery siblings because that way they wouldn't find a mate in a close (i.e. brother and sister) biological relative. so is it common for gargs to mate between generations? or are Broadway/Angela and Yama/Sora very different from the norm?
Broadway and Angela are a very unusual case for OBVIOUS reasons. (He was asleep for 1000 years. She grew up on Avalon. As a result they are nearly the exact same age biologically.)
Yama and Sora are atypical. But their love is not unheard of.
I don't ever recall saying that gargs from separate generations couldn't or wouldn't mate. It's just not particularly common.
Hello Greg-Alright, so this one is about Angela's hair. It's it just coincidence that her hair style is exactly like Princess Jasmine's from Alladin, or did you guys over a Disney just do that to be cute? I'm not trying to be an asshole (wow it's a miracle) I like her hair. Hmmm, she'd look pretty gorgeous with it down though, rrrrrrrroaw!
I don't know. I assume it's a coincidence, but we were all in the same building so maybe we were influenced some. Greg Guler's original design for Demona had that sort of pony-tail. Frank didn't want that for Demona, so I had it brought back for Angela.
Hey guess who? Yeah I honestly couldn't remember if i asked this yet or not, so if it sounds rather familiar, then just void it!
Alright, here I go! When me and Angela get married, if she were to lay an egg would she build a nest? I know that the clan lays eggs in a rookery, but since she'd be the only gargoyle around, would she just build a nest for her egg outta palm tree leaves or something? Or maybe she'd convert my basement into a rookery...I don't know. Please do tell!
She's not the only garg around.
And, dex, you're starting to creep me out a bit.
Hi, Greg,
About Angela: Right after the World Tour, what are her opinions about...
1-Macbeth?
2-Fox?
3-Dingo?
Thanks.
1. He seems all right.
2. She doesn't seem to trustworthy. But at least she's not trying to kill me.
3. He seems all right.
was Angela nervous upon meeting the Manhatten Clan? i noticed that she stayed back in the shadows a bit at first. if she was, i can understand why. first of all, she probably felt like a hatchling among them. Avalon was not only where she lived her childhood, but it seems to be a place of eternal childhood, for mortals anyway. even Tom, Katherine, and the Magus said they all lived like children even as they all grew older. and when Goliath came to the island he was the oldest gargoyle (biologically and chronologically) that the Avalon clan had ever seen! than she gets to Manhatten and there's an even older gargoyle, Hudson. then of course, if i was Angela, i would feel very nervous about being raised by humans, even though they did a great job. the Manhatten gargs all hatched in the Wyvern rookery, grew up in the castle raised by gargs and had maintained almost entirely gargoyle-gargoyle relationships with the exception of Elisa, Matt, and some villains. Angela probably felt like, "I wonder if there is some gargoyle custom i'm not aware of.", or, "Am I doing something only humans do?" among her brothers and sisters all this was ok since they were all raised the same. actually out of all the NY gargs i think Angela was probably most intimidated by Hudson, am i right about any of this?
ok, just another ramble from matt...
I'd say she was a bit nervous, yes.
I don't know if Hudson made her that nervous, specifically. He was very welcoming, and she's fairly self-possessed. But the situation was nerve-wracking, for many of the reasons you describe.
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