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We know that the gargoyle clones look so different due to their accelerated growth.
a) These characteristics are not genetic then?
b) Can these characteristics be transferred to the next generation or do the children look normal? So white teeth and skin more like the originals.
b. I would think not.
1. In 'Double Jeopardy' Lexinton and Broadway view the tapes of Severius, detailing the creation of Thailog. (I'm being a bit specific in case some details have slipped your mind over the years) Anyway, Severious artfically aged Thailog to be the age of Goliath, but how did Severious know Goliaths age or did he just estimate?
2. Also in that tape, Severious mentioned how he managed to counter the 'slow aging process'. Goliath would later explain to Elsa that gargolyes age at 1/2 of humans, so once again, how did Severious know that?
3. If Thailog had been aged differently, say to the age of the Trio or Hudson, would that have affected his mind by much?
4. In Vows, Thailog and Macbeth meet for the first time and I do love Macbeths reaction. 'Who the blazes are you?!'. Did Macbeth react like that because he was put off by Thailog's resemblance to Golaith?
5. In that same scene, Thailog slips Macbeth a gun and allows him to escape. So I'm assuming that Macbeth was not entirely sure of Thailog's intentions, other than that it looked like he was double crossing Demona, but it has me thinking. Does Macbeth count Thailog as an alley, enemy, or just neutral?
1. He estimated, I suppose. But I also think it's possible that he had that information from Xanatos, who may have gotten in the past through Demona.
2. I don't remember this. Are you sure you heard that right? Because Thailog from this point on ages at a normal rate.
3. Too hypothetical to answer.
4. He was reacting to that, yes.
5. I think by the time Macbeth and Goliath were done comparing notes, Macbeth would regard Thailog at best as someone to be very wary of.
Hey Greg hope your novel is turning out well I look forward to reading it.Anyway, these questions are about the mutates, clones and Labyrinth Clan.
1). For the most part how do the majority of mutates and humans view the Gargoyle clones? Is it more of a blessing more bodies or a burden because of the lack development and free will?
2). By 2198 how do the mutate members and the gargoyle clone members view each other is it animosity different origins possibly beliefs, respectful because of shared location or have they established a unique culture that blends the various backgraounds of the groups making alot more differnt than your typical Garg clan?
3) You mention that by 2198 the two different clans in NY would have different priorties which is why they did not merge. Is there any animosity from the two clans because of different origins?
4). We know Talon and Maggie can have children but could different members of the mutate group have kids with another like Claw with Lisa despite being mixed with different species DNA?
5). How does the current Manhatten Clan view the Labyrinth "Clan"(not yet a Clan I know) Do they feel like they need to show the Clones and Mutates, Gargoyle customs or is it more like let them find their own way and we'll give advice as needed kind of deal?
1. A mixed blessing, I guess.
2. SPOILER REQUEST.
3. I wouldn't say animosity. But they don't always see things eye to eye.
4. We don't know that. We know Maggie's pregnant. Anything beyond that is a SPOILER REQUEST. (Also, I'm not sure I understand your question... are you trying to mate off Claw with Elisa?)
5. More the latter.
And RAIN OF THE GHOSTS, BOOK TWO: SPIRITS OF ASH AND FOAM is going very well. In fact, I've finished writing it and sent it off to my editor at St. Martin's Press yesterday! Thanks for asking (and for giving me any excuse to pimp it!)
Hey, Greg! Love Gargoyles, excited for Rain of the Ghosts, and I just reread the comics and have a question about the clones.
We know that if gargoyles A and B are cloned, the clones, C and D, will have photo-negative coloration. Now, let's say A and C are female, and B and D are male. Let's also say that A and B do not become mates, but C and D do. The egg, E, is not artificially sped up, but develops over the ten year period. When E hatches, will its coloring resemble that of A/B or C/D?
Just curious about the practical application of the clones. Also, I think a Gargoyles Kickstarter would be a great idea! Have a nice day!
Oy, that made my head hurt.
Well, first - you need to remember that the color change was a result of the accelerated aging, not of the cloning process.
So the assumption that C and D are photo-negative assumes that they were accelerated. Not a safe assumption, but for the sake of argument...
Would E's colors resemble A/B or C/D?
I do not know. I'd have to consult my Garg-science buddies.
And now, here's a question about gargoyles, clones, attraction, and gender traits. I really miss the Blue Mug A Guests, this would have been a perfect question for them.
Male gargoyle clones' eyes glow red, and the female clones' glow white. The complete opposite of natural hatched gargoyles. I was just wondering, how would gargoyles who might attempt to mate with clones deal with this?
The only way I can extrapolate is by picturing human women with gender specific traits that only a man would have, or vice-versa. Most heterosexuals would consider such things to be massive turn-offs, unless they're a bit kinky. I know it's not as extreme as a female with a penis, or a male with a vagina. But I'm trying to extrapolate. Maybe like a beard on a woman, or breasts on a man. Okay, that feels a bit off too.
Now, we didn't see Brooklyn get anywhere with Delilah, he probably never even saw her eyes glow. And considering he was just seeing her as a body, an available female, I wonder just how much of a turn-off that would have been for him if he did make even a little progress.
On the other hand, we have Demona who was with Thailog for at least half a year, and assuming she is 100% heterosexual, I am wondering if that would have unnerved her at all. But, she definitely seemed very physically into him, so maybe she has bisexual tendencies, or she's just really kinky, or maybe she just didn't care one iota. I don't know.
What are your thoughts on this?
I don't get monolithic about this stuff. Different gargoyles would respond differently. To some, maybe to most, it might just seem exotic.
I was sure this was in the archive, but when I checked I couldn't find it. The clones coloring is different because of the forced maturation process. Is that also why Thailog's eyes glow red instead of white.
(I could've sworn I remembered you answering it, but when I looked to confirm the answer, even going into the Thailog section and manually searching for 'red' turned up nothing.)
I was reading through the archives just a moment ago, when a question occured to me about Demona and her actions during "The Reckoning." You stated that the reason Thailog did not clone Angela was that he did not have the opportunity to get her DNA at that point because Demona controlled the release of the mosquito that took the blood samples and when Angela was around, she just didn't release it. But she DID release it when Elisa was around (hence Delilah). My question is: Why did Demona, who despises Elisa, want to steal her DNA and clone her? My understanding is that she didn't know Thailog was creating a female replacement for herself, but was cloning Elisa or making a hybrid human-gargoyle part of the plan Thailog and Demona hatched together? If cloning Elisa was part of their plan, what was the purpose of it? What justification did Thailog give Demona to convince her to capture Elisaâs DNA? If cloning her were not part of their plan, why would Demona snatch a blood sample from Elisa?
Demona controlled the release, but not who the mosquito stung. She released a mosquito once when Elisa AND a few gargoyles were present. She didn't anticipate that Elisa would get bit, nor what Thailog and Sevarius would do with the DNA.
When Thailog produces his new batch of clones will they be carbon copies of the Manhattan clan, or will he have Sevarius dabble about to mix and match, so he has clones that are mixed like Delilah?
Why did Thailog not clone Angela? I know in the past you've said that Demona never released the mosquito to gain Angela's dna and that's why. But Thailog could have easily have had his own mosquito(sounds so silly when I say it like that) and got dna samples from the clan himself like he did from Demona and Eliza. Wouldn't he have wanted the additionally manpower? He was planning on betraying Demona anyway that's why he created Delilah. Why respect Demona wishes with Angela? Did he think the other male clones would be easier to control without another female gargoyle?
Your premise is incorrect.
When would Thailog have had the opportunity to gather Angela's DNA (before Clan-Building, I mean)? He got Elisa's DNA from one of Demona's mosquitos. We saw that in the episode. One presumes he got Demona's the same way. That is, the mosquitos were released and took a blood sample. It's not like Demona could tell them whom to bite. Her only control was to NOT release a mosquito. So when Angela was around, she didn't release one.
Well, I sadly can't buy the individual comic issues anymore. Since Disney won't let SLG publish any after 9/31, I'll have to wait for the trades. I can't afford to buy each issue twice.
I do have a question about the Labyrinth Clan, who are sort of topical:
We know that gargates gain energy by absorbing heat or sunlight during the day, and that if a gargoyle were deprived of this for enough nights in a row, she would eventually start feeling some kind of negative effects.
Given this, what will happen to the clones as they continue to sleep underground every day? It's dark and probably cold and damp down there.
Um, there are no individual issues anymore, I'm afraid.
I'm not sure it's all that cold in the Labyrinth.
A short response to Avator -- ~mammal~ red blood cells have no DNA, but gargoyles are not mammals. Other vertebrates have red blood cells with DNA in them.
Hmmm... I'm looking smarter all the time, aren't I?
Genetics, from Gargoyles in 1994 to now!
This isn't so much a question as general very late reply to a few things I've seen here that had been posted years ago. (about cloning, and how it was done in gargoyles)
I've noticed people mentionned dr. Severino Antinori as being some sort of real-life version of our catroon "friendly genetecist". It's interesting to notice that Severino actually said he'd have a first human clone done around 2002 and then said it wasn't true. The guy actually seems to be generally creepy and even fake-starved himself in his homeland to protest the refusal of the country to allow human cloning. Either way, it can only be assumed that this fellow who really was a genycologist to begin with (and not a molecular biologist), never did a human clone. But the fact is that he's interestingly as "scary" in his actions and words as Savarius.
To this day, few can say they really succeeded at cloning humans. Dr. Zavos is probably the only one with some credibility. But that aside, onto results...
While it's impossible to say how "well" cloning would work with humans, it's well known that it doesn't work much if at all for primates and other animals like dogs. Yes, it's been done with cats, horses, cows, mice, mules, etc--- but here's the catch. Most cloning issues have to do with the mother (the one who will be pregnant with the clone). For example, dogs only can breed twice a year and it's impossible to change that. So timing this with the making of cloned embryos is just too far out. WIth gargoyles I could see an even bigger issue here--- but Savarius luckily managed to create "in vitro" type uterus environment. I think just this would solve a whole lot in terms of cloning difficulty for gargates (or even humans or primates or canines) So already, even more than 14 years after the episodes were written, it's interesting to still see some credibility in the story of the gargoyle clones. Of course we're far from replicating the environment of a uterus and it is known that embryos implanted -elsewhere- in a creature sadly ends into the embryos becomming aggressive cancers instead of lifeforms of their own.
No matter how clones are of have been done to this day, there's always one element that is required, the ovocyte. Which means a female subject is -always- necessary for cloning (at least so far). So unless, again, Savarius had broken the mold... then it seems plausible that he could have used some from Demona. Of course that'd mean putting her under and cutting her open to get them. (would she have been willing?) And it would also mean that all the clones would have her mitochondrial genome (as a perfect clone can only be done with females, males inherit the mitochondrias from whoever the ovocyte was taken from). Now the mitochondrial genome has very important yet small things.. it basically commands your cellular breathing. What's funny about this though is that IF that's how it was made, then Thailog and Demona shared at least.. part of a genome ;)
While this is all speculations, perhaps it could explain why Bronx wasn't cloned--- because they didn't have access to garg beast ovocytes because... no female was around! (how conveniently credible again!)
As a last point... which is slightly negative though, is the usage of blood to make clones. Now the best cells one can get their hands on are stem cells, to make a cloning procedure. From embryos this works great... from adults it's still better than nothing. (when cloning females though they were able to take cells from part of ovaries that seems to give the best result so far) Adult creatures still have stem cells around, some in the spinal cord for example... and even some in the skin! So it's sort of great that "Thailog" material came from a robot scratching Goliath. It can be assumed they used the skin material and not the blood... but sadly this can't apply to the robot musquitos that they used for the others.
Now why is that--- well red blood cells simply have no nucleus so they have no genome DNA. At all. And while you can still have white blood cells... which have DNA... well those simply give -awful- result for cloning so far. It's been done, yes, but with less than 0.3% even on animals easily cloned. Now I'm not sure how much blood those musquitos took but it seems very unlikely that they found enough material to even do a successful cloning with white blood cells in there.
Now with that said, and forward to the comic, it seems Thailog took consierable quantities of blood from each gargoyle again for genetic issues.... which would probably give a better yield than just a drop or two. Still we can say they got skin cells from it to work with... I like to think, in the light of this, that there's some sort misconception about how blood carries "life" in itself... and while this falls into psychology it's sort of silly since we know that "breeding" has little to do with blood, unless you're a vampire ;)
Seeing what another person wrote on the subject, I think it is interesting to note the difference between clones and clonee. It's true "calico" female cats cloned didn't always have the color of their cloned parent. That's because female calico cats have their color on the X chromosome and they have two X chromosomes like humans... and that randomly one X is inactivated at some point thus resulting sometimes in patched colors and sometimes not. This has nothing to do with DNA on it's own, but rather is something that happens well after an embryo is made. I'm fairly sure this means cloned -male- cats would effectivly be the same color than their "father". And unless gargoyles also have their colors on a simili-X chromosome in the same way humans and cats function, then there's no reason the clone would be another color except through epi-genetics (which genes activate and which don't or chromosome inactivation etc) or... as you said... something to do with Savarius' tampering. (So I think that explanation still holds really well and is probably the best)
But what I really enjoyed most of all in the show is how clones were really perceeved as nothig more than twin brothers (or a child) whose mentality had nothing to do with the person whose genes they inherited, but really with their education. Even to this day there's so many people trying to trick the population (specially those with money to waste) in thinking that their clones will carry their spirits, which is plain out ridiculous....
So all this was my two cents, or maybe two dollars ;) To say that I really love how cloning was tackled in the show, it's far more realistic than most would have had it.
I'm glad... since of course I know NOTHING.
I asked this question before. You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah having an egg. "Delilah is genetically much more Gargoyle than human. She is capable of laying a gargoyle egg. Thailog would have insisted on that. But she couldn't mate with a human without some scientific or magical help."
This suprised me as Thailog doesn't strike me as the parenting type. Does Thailog want his own family? As a clone i found it odd that he would have insisted on procreating naturally. Why do you think this is, deep down does he consider himself something lesser than other gargoyles as a clone?
I meant Thailog would have insisted on Delilah being CAPABLE of laying eggs.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Anton Sevarius begins to clone Goliath.
The Magus passes away inside the Hollow Hill.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Elisa Maza, Broadway and Lexington are lured to Long Island after midnight by a false tip. They are assaulted by a creature that appears to be Goliath. That morning, mercenaries hired by Anton Sevarius steal a stone Thailog from David Xanatos. After sunset, they deliver their prize to Sevarius on an oil rig just off the coast of Long Island. Not long after, Elisa, Goliath, Broadway and Lex return to Long Island to investigate Goliath's mysterious look-alike. They find a Gen-U-Tech Systems tracking device. Meanwhile, Xanatos receives a ransom call demanding twenty million dollars in exchange for the creature. He and Owen Burnett quickly deduce that Sevarius is behind the gargoyle-napping. At Gen-U-Tech, Lexington and Broadway discover the truth about Goliath's clone Thailog. Meanwhile, in Scotland, Xanatos' security team begins searching for the Loch Ness Monster.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Using the Phoenix Gate, Goliath, Demona, David Xanatos, Petros Xanatos and Fox come back in time from the year 1995. Demona immediately uses the Gate to disappear again. Xanatos saves the life of Princess Elena of Normandy. He is rewarded with a coin, which he gives to the Norman Ambassador, a fellow member of the Illuminati Society. The 1995 Goliath encounters the 975 Hudson. The 975 Demona is studying under the Archmage as his apprentice. He instructs her to steal the Phoenix Gate from Princess Elena, which she does. But then she is confronted by the 1995 Demona and Goliath. After a brief trip for all three to 994, the 975 Demona returns them to her time and winds up on the outs with the Archmage. She breaks the Phoenix Gate in two and gives half of it to the 975 Goliath at the wedding of Malcolm and Elena. Meanwhile, all the 1995 participants return to their own time.
David Xanatos receives an anonymous gift of a medieval coin worth $20 grand. It is the start of his fortune, and was actually sent to David by his 1995 counterpart, via the Illuminati Society from the year 975.
A fully-grown Thailog is released from his maturation chamber and takes up residence at the Eyrie Building. Xanatos receives a letter from the Illuminati Society. It is from himself, sent in the year 975. It explains that he sent himself the medieval coin that was the basis of all his wealth. The letter also explains how he set this all up by turning his wedding to Fox into a time travel excursion to 975.
Xanatos gets a new assignment from Quincy and the Illuminati. Hudson confirms he is a gargoyle to Robbins. Thailog and the clones fight the Manhattan Clan. During the battle, Thailog gets DNA samples from Goliath, Angela, Broadway, Lexington, Elisa, Brooklyn, Hudson and Bronx. Delilah, Malibu, Burbank and Hollywood reject Thailog, but Brentwood chooses to depart with him. Thailog gives the DNA to Sevarius and gains a new personal assistant, Shari. Doctor Sato treats Goliath. Goliath and Elisa declare their love for each other.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
In part because both he and Elisa want to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of Receiving Stolen Property. He will be sentenced to six months in county jail including time served, with every hope that the sentence will be reduced to three months for good behavior.
Xanatos confronts Fox and attempts to get the Eye back from her. She transforms in front of him and escapes. Xanatos intentionally involves Goliath and Elisa in an attempt to manipulate them into helping Fox and retrieving the Eye. Goliath quickly catches on and initially refuses to help. Later that night, the Trio, Goliath, Elisa, Vinnie, Brendan and Margot all attend a Greenwich Village Halloween block party. When the Werefox attacks, Goliath and Elisa agree to help Xanatos save Fox. Together, they manage to remove the Eye from the creature, which reverts to Fox. Goliath takes possession of the Eye.
Matt Bluestone convenes a meeting of the Gargoyle Taskforce (including himself, Elisa, Officers Morgan & Travanti, Detectives Harris & Chung, Margot Yale and Martin Hacker). Hacker has Illuminati meetings with Matt, Xanatos and Castaway. Morgan asks Elisa on a date. After turning him down and spending time with Jason in the hospital prison ward, she goes to the Eyrie. The gargoyles awaken at sunset. Fox has Halloween costumes for Brooklyn, Lexington, Broadway and Angela in anticipation of the Masque that Xanatos is throwing later that night. Elisa breaks up with Goliath. Demona recovers the Atlantean crystal that was at the heart of the Praying Gargoyle. In, the Labyrinth, Al is showing Shari around. Goliath and Brooklyn arrive. Brooklyn wants to ask Delilah to the party, but Goliath does instead. Goliath, Brooklyn and Delilah depart. Thailog attacks. Terry Chung, Billy Greene, Susan Greene and Sarah Browne trick-or-treat at Jeffrey Robbins' home, where Hudson and Bronx are visiting. Following Illuminati orders, Xanatos takes Fox and Alexander to a party at the White House. They chat with Ambassador Chung, and David meets Illuminatus Quincy Hemings. Meanwhile, Xanatos' Masque goes on without him at the Eyrie. Attendees include Judge Roebling, Doctor Sato, Brendan, Margot, Lexington, Brooklyn, Angela and Broadway. Elisa and Morgan arrive together, as do Goliath and Delilah. Thailog, having taken the male clones from the Labyrinth, arrives to collect Delilah and stabs Goliath.
Xanatos' probation expires.
Do the other clones resent Brentwood for going with Thailog?
We'll have to ask them.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
When Demona refuses to allow Thailog to kill Angela, he reveals an additional clone: Delilah, created from a combination of Demona and Elisa's DNA. Demona frees Talon, Goliath and the clan. They manage to recapture Fang and take down the clones. But while fighting each other, Demona and Thailog seemingly perish in a fire. Talon offers to take the other clones back to the Labyrinth where he promises to teach them to think for themselves.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Xanatos acquires the Cauldron of Life and prepares to test it by ordering the construction of a pair of Macbeth robots and a statue of Hudson. He also begins looking for a sword that will match Hudson's to be used with the statue.
Relieving Talon, Goliath takes his shift guarding the Labyrinth prisoners. Thailog busts Demona and Fang out. Talon and Goliath pursue them to Coney Island. Goliath departs and quickly returns with Angela, the Trio and Hudson. All are captured by Fang, Demona, Thailog and his clones: Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu and Burbank (made from the DNA of Broadway, Lexington, Brooklyn and Hudson, respectively).
Second, could Sevarius clone Bronx. And I know this next one sound's silly but if one was clone do you think he would be named after an area in Los Angeles.
He can now. As for the name... depends on the context, I guess.
This is more a ramble reply to Alex Garg's post, but I definitely think this is a fascinating subject, and could make a great Ask Greg discussion.
Honestly, at this point, I don't think anyone in the Manhattan Clan cares much about any of the clones. Any of them. What was the first thing said when Thailog appeared to perish and the clones had no where to go? "We can't just bring them back to the Clock Tower can we? I mean, they kind of give me the creeps."
Right there, the Manhattan Clan wanted nothing to do with them. Wanted to pretend they didn't exist. Let Talon take them to live in a sewer. Out of sight, out of mind. Not that the reaction is not understandable, it is. I think we'd all be uncomfortable around clones of ourselves made against our will and knowledge. It's a fundamental violation of our individuality.
Did any of the Manhattan Clan go down to see them between "The Reckoning" and "Invitation Only"? I'd be very surprised if the answer is yes. The one time they do go down, they want something. Goliath is following Elisa's request to attempt to date Delilah. Brooklyn... just wants to make a play for the only available female he's aware of. They were down there both for selfish reasons.
So, yeah, all of their talk about free will probably was less for the clones' sake, and more towards the Manhattan Clan's hatred for Thailog. They hate Thailog, so naturally they don't want the clones to be helping him. At this point, do they have any other reason to care?
Lexington's only real concern when Brentwood chooses Thailog is how it makes him [Lexington] look. Not concern for Brentwood's safety, or eventually having to face him as an enemy. Lex thinks it makes *him* look bad.
I know this is a pretty serious indictment of the Manhattan Clan. I love them, they are heroes, there's a lot to admire in each and every one of them. But, they're not saints. Which is fine, they're more interesting this way... if I wanted a group of pure goodie goods, I'd read a Silver Age Justice League of America comic book.
I don't disagree with any of the above, but I would temper it.
Again, I think Angela has an INTEREST in individuality and wouldn't want Delilah blindly following ANYONE. Delilah may have reacted to Angela as if Angela was giving her another order, but I don't think it's hard to see that that was clearly NOT Angela's intent. And if your looking for proof, just check out Angela's relationship with Goliath. She respects him as a leader. As a hero. A legend. She loves him as a father. But check out the World Tour, particularly Sanctuary. She's hardly following G. blindly.
And Goliath... in his slow, deliberate, bleeding-to-death way... had clearly given all this some thought too. He told Thailog that Delilah would not CHOOSE him (i.e. Thailog). He may seem confident of this (perhaps even over-confident), but there's nothing to indicate that Goliath plans to decide FOR her. And he doesn't decide for Brentwood either. There's preference and action. Two different things.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Sevarius completes his involvement with Thailog's project and is paid off. Thailog begins programming his new clones. Meanwhile, Angela and Demona are still debating the latter's behavior. Claw arrives to take over guarding the prisoners for the day shift. Angela elects to sleep as stone in front of her mother's cell.
Does Demona have any interest in any of the Clones? They could have been a new clan for her even Delilah after Thailog was presumed dead why did she abandon them so quickly?
Demona is, ironically, quick to declare things, people, plans, etc. a lost cause.
You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah laying an egg, does he want his own offspring?
Did I say that? Where? When?
I was just wondering why Thailog didn't clone Angela, i know Demona didn't release the bug when she watching her but even still if he could get Eliza's dna without her knowing he could do the same for Angela. If he was expecting Demona to betray him anyway even with Delilah he was at a one "man" disadvantage from a tactical point of view it just would have made more sense for Thailog to clone Angela too.
When would he have gotten Angela's DNA?
You can pinpoint EXACTLY when he got Elisa's, BTW, if you watch the episode carefully.
Of course, NOW he has everyone's DNA, everyone in the Manhattan Clan, that is.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Broadway is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA.
Goliath makes a bargain.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Hudson is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Lex is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA and then returns to Nightstone Unlimited, where Sevarius and Thailog are preparing clones of all the gargoyles.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Manhattan Clan imprisons Demona in the Labyrinth and agrees to help Talon and the Mutates guard her and Fang. Angela takes the first watch. Elisa is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples her DNA. Demona regains consciousness in her cell. Angela introduces herself.
What does Demona think of Delilah?
What do you think she thinks?
What does Elisa think of Delilah? It must be pretty disconcerting to know there's a clone of her and Demona.
As of issue #2 of the comic book, Elisa hasn't seen Delilah in person. But knowing someone like Delilah exists is probably disconcerting enough.
Ah, The Reckoning. With your ramble, you answred one of my most pondered questions!
Anyway, I LOVE this episode. I've never seen it all the way through; I think it is the only episode I've NEVER seen fully (always came in right at the "tin can" line. But you mentioned that it was the fifth last episode, before possesion and HM?
I've always seen it aired AFTER Posession, though all other episodes were in correct oprder.
The Reckoning sets up the relationship between mother and daughter, develops relationships further between Talon and the Gargoyles, and shows us how naieve (SP?) Demona really is.
Demona didn't learn the Thailog was using her, even back in Paris; she still thinks he loves her. But then again Demona has a one-track mind.
I think Demona finally gets it when - enter stage left - Delilah is introduced by Thailog himself.
From what I understand, the idea of the "clan" was sacred back in 990 AD when there were clans in Scotland. Demona has been so messed up over the centuries so much so that if she calls a bunch of botched clones a "clan" then she really has forgotten what a CLAN truely is.
And of course the great delivery: "Ah, but it's a very clever tin can!" What a great line, like you said.
Tim Curry back as sevarious. Another great performance. His voice is so unique. And he does such a good job in the role.
"How many Gargoyles does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" That made for a great contest. And some of the responses were way past funny.
It was quite clever to use Californian names simialr to NY names.
Great episode all around.
P.S. Comic's been sold out everywhere I go. Read it 8 or 9 times. Bought 2 copies. Keep up the great work. Better than the Origianl Journey.
Thanks. The L.A. names actually were a direct result of discussions on the old Disney Afternoon e-mailing list. Someone asked what the names would have been if Xanatos had built his castle in L.A. rather than N.Y. The question fascinated me, and so...
Although I cheated. I think Burbank's name would have been something more like Santa Ana.
I was looking through the FAQ's and I was reading about Goliath and Elisa's relationship and your plans for them. In regards to the Halloween Double-Date scenario, you said that "Delilah is eager, and for obvious reasons, physically attractive to Goliath." My questions are as follow:
1). Why is Delilah eager? Does she have an attraction to Goliath?
2). If so, how did it develop? I was under the impression that after Talon took her and the other clones into the Labyrinth Delilah and Goliath didn't have much interaction....
Thank you for your time--and, again, Gargoyles is an EXCELLENT series that I eager hope will one day continue in one form or another.
1. Since she was programmed to fall for Thailog, I think she'd find Goliath attractive. I also think she's been a bit at sea since Coney Island.
2. I'm not going into this now, as I hope to put it in the comic book eventually.
Hello, Gargoyles is one of my favorite shows and Deliaih is
one of my favorite characters. I was wondering why in "The Reckoning" Thailog named Elisa's and Demona's clone to be named Deliaih? Does the name have a special meaning? I also
hope that someday you will also mention more about the Thailog/Deliaih reunion.
Well, aside from the obvious biblical reference to a dangerous femme fatale, the name just SOUNDS to me like a combo of Demona and Elisa...
See. I don't know how you missed it. ;)
As to the planned Thailog/Delilah "reunion" I'll just say that I have one planned. That's all I feel like revealing at this time.
Me again :), lemme get one more question on before i head off to work.
1)Does Goliath still feel anything for Demona , or is he just filled with hate for her ?
I liked that female clone , I think if she lived her and Brooklyn would have made a great pair.
Gargoyles Forever !
1. Goliath's feelings (and he has many) for Demona are decidedly mixed.
I have other plans for both Brooklyn & Delilah.
I 2 have a question about the Delilah of 2198. If Delilah is a decendant of the first Delilah.
1. Who was Delilah's mate.
2. How and when did Delilah escape from her stone sleep virus type thingie?
3. Is the original Delilah still around during 2198?
1. Not telling.
2. I don't consider that canon.
Here's another wild guess at the date: Father's day, 2003?
And now for the questions.
1. How does subliminal education offset the accelerated growth of clones? Does it go something like this perhaps?
Money is good!
Power is good!
Control is good!
Profit is good!
Protecting those you care for is bad!
Blackmailing people (with the exception of your father) is good!
Or was it something else?
2. Were Burbank's, Malabu's, Brentwood's, Hollywood's and Delila's fast growth turned off the same way, by programing in: "obey Thailog" and "don't thing for yourself"?
3. Who created the Elisa clone we saw in "Protection", and what happend to her?
Thanks for putting up with me once again.
Closer to Valentine's Day 2004.
1. I don't understand the question AT ALL. Big "Huh?" on this one.
2. What does their accelerated growth have to do with their programming? Two separate processes.
3. What? What Elisa clone?
You're pulling my leg, aren't you?
1.Would two age accelerated clones of the same gargoyle have the same coloring?
2.If Delilah(I) was grown naturally what would her coloring be?
3.Does Delilah of 2198 have the same coloring as her ancestor? If not mind telling us what her coloring is?
1. Assuming all else is equal, I'd say yes.
2. Good question. Depends what pieces of DNA Sev used for skin tone, I guess.
3. I was thinking yes, but the characters aren't designed and I won't be held to that.
Hello, Mr. Weisman,
I am curious about the Delilah of Gargoyles 2198. You mentioned she is a descendant of the Delilah clone in the original series. How many generations removed is she from the original Delilah? Is she more or even less human than the first Delilah (given the first is around 90% Gargoyle, as you aforementioned)? That's all. Thanks!
Legitimate questions, but ones that I'm not answering at this time.
when cloning a gargoyle, is there any way to predict how the coloring will differ, is there any order to it or is it completly random coloring? i mean does Lex's parent or grandparent have the same coloring as Lex's clone or what?
The color differences, according to Sevarius, are a result of the forced growing procedure. If you clone a garg and allow it to age normally, the coloring should be the same.
I believe that the color changes are predictable. They tend toward the photo-negative, I think.
If given the chance to revive the Gargoyles series, what role would you personally give to these mostly underused and/or underrated characters:
1. Fang- My favorite character, I wonder if he would be given the chance to become one of the typical " one-liner spitting good guy with bad attitude" character (something I would like) or become a mayor villain.
2. Maria Chavez- Would she ever meet the gargoyles?
Also, I would like to know how old Talon, Maggie, Claw and Fang are.
What follows is not meant to be all-inclusive, but just a sampling of my plans...
1. Fang was destined to join "BAD GUYS". That is he was forced to either join Bad Guys or serve a life sentence in prison. He chose the former. For more info on BAD GUYS see the Bad Guys Archive here at ASK GREG, or come to next year's GATHERING in Montreal to see the Bad Guys' story reel for yourself.
2. Ever's a long time. But I had no immediate plans to change either her position or her role within the show. We would have learned more about her home life though, including her daughter.
3. Claw would have remained a mainstay in the Labyrinth, though he also would likely have guest-starred in BAD GUYS.
4. Wolf would have joined the Ultra-Pack.
5. Delilah would also have remained in the Labyrinth. She and Goliath would attempt to "date", but it wouldn't work out.
Finally, my timeline shows the following birth years:
Claw - 1954
Fang - 1968
Talon - 1970
Maggie - 1975
Hi I love the show Gargolyes but do plan on bringing the show back. If u do will it be a revamp of the show(Same charecters?) Or a new clan hopefully with Deliha.
I'd love to bring the show back, as I've stated many times before. Take a look at the "Bringing Gargoyles Back" archive here at ASK GREG.
I like Delilah too, by the way.
How can Thailog and the Clones be cured of the clone virus when they're solid stone, and incapable of intraveneous injection? If science is a kind of magic, as Titania mentions in 'The Gathering' two-parter, no mage could meddle with it.
1. Don't take what Titania said too literally. She was making an analogy, not writing a treatise.
2. Keep in mind, you're talking Goliath Chronicles.
Will the Clone Wars happen in the future? You mentioned them in Future Tense.
It was, of course, largely a throw-away. An in-joke reference to Star Wars and a quick way for Puck to explain his lack of knowledge of Thailog's relationship to Demona.
But -- without making too big a deal of the name "Clone Wars" itself, as I don't want to get sued -- we'd have ourselves some Clone Wars down the line, yes.
by "Hunters Moon" had a human been cloned in the Gragoyles Universe? i mean a full blood human, not a partial human like Delilah.
I'm not too familiar with the "Gragoyles Universe".
This isn't really a question, but rather a corrective comment.
Obviously Goliath wouldn't know, but I don't know about you, but Thailog is NOT Goliath's son. They are brothers. Until I went to a genetics seminar with my AP bio class, this would never have crossed my mind.
Anyway, to the point. The reason Thailog can't be Goliath's son is because of genetics. Thailog's genes came from Goliath, which in turn came from Goliaths parents. Now, therefore, technically Thailog has the same parents as Goliath (since all his chormosomes can be traced back through Goliath's parents).
There's more to it that, but I wanted to keep it it terms understandable. Another simpler way to make the argument is that since Thatilog has the same genes as Goliath, they're sort of like identical twins, born years apart (and of course identical twins are siblings of each other). It's the same with the labrynth clones as well, they are bothers of the gargs they were cloned from.
Delilah is a whole different story. I can't explain that one, but i guess she's a half sister to both Elisa and Demona, but I can't prove it genetically.
Sorry if I seemed to have a "you're wrong, I'm right" attitude, but I just wanted to let you know what the real world truth was. Now Gargoyles Universe truth, well, I can't tell you what's right and wrong, that's for you to decide.
Thanx for listening to my lecture :)
Actually, I found this post very interesting and informative. It doesn't change the emotional reality of how Thailog and Goliath feel about each other. But it's good to know. And I appreciate -- greatly -- that you weren't trying to make me look foolish, just filling me in on an obvious gap in my knowledge.
It's over a year since you posted this, so I don't have any idea if you're still hanging around. But Thank You, Artemis. It is appreciated.
who will delilah take as her make, one of the four original clones or another gargoyle?
I'm not answering this at this time.
1. can a clone (like Thailog) be cloned? i see no reason why not, but i thought i'd ask...
2. if a clone was cloned would their coloring return to usual (i.e. Thailog's clone has Goliaths coloring) or would the coloring be entirely new (Goliath, Thailog and his clone all have different skin tones)?
I'm going to be out of town next week, so this week I'm going to try to answer two questions a day to make up for it. You can splurge now or ration them out to your heart's content to get you through the gap.
1. I see no reason why not, however Dolly the sheep has demonstrated that cloning is not a tremendously effective way to reproduce. Even assuming that Sevarius' methods are more effective, a clone of a clone starts to sound a bit like a xerox of a xerox. Eventually, the copies are too weak to be useful.
2. Well, the change in coloring wasn't a result of the cloning but of the rapid forced aging. But assuming the clone of the clone was also rapid forced aged, than I assume the coloring would alter. A rapid aged clone of Thailog, might not look exactly like Goliath, but he might be close.
I just had a thought.
Why did Elisa only have a bit part in the reckoning?
I mean I wouldn't have mind seeing her reaction to Delilah. Heck even seeing how Delilah reacted to Elisa.
The answer is that in any given episode we've only got about 22 minutes of screen time. We can't service an entire cast as large as Gargoyles in every episode. We figured someday we'd get her reaction...
This is The Cat, again. Ok, question. Why did Sevarius(hope I spelled that right) clone the other gargoyles?
How did he clone the male gargoyles? I only thought females could be cloned because we have the proper cells, such as the egg.
Well all for now. Bye.
Why? Because (a) he was well paid and (b) he likes that kinda thing.
As to the male-female thing, I'd never heard that.
What is the signifigance of the clones names? The only name I recognise is Hollywood. Why did Demona choose them?
Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu and Burbank are all part of the Greater Los Angeles Area. Demona chose those names to spoof what she views as the idiotic name choices that the trio and Hudson chose for themselves.
I don't know why I'm bothering to ask this, but just in case you're in a generous mood:
1a) Does Thailog ever find a mate (other than Demona, if you could call them mates)? b) Which race is she/he? (New Olympian, human, Child of Oberon, gargoyle, etc)?
2a) Does Hollywood ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
3a) Does Burbank ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
4a) Does Brentwood ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
5a) Does Malibu ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
6a) Does Claw ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
7) Which race is Delilah's mate?
8) Which race is Lex's mate?
9) Will the Labyrinth clan have any gargoyle beasts by 2198?
1-8. I'm not revealing any of this at this time, though I will say that at least some will find mates.
What are the names of the clones clan?
You mean the names of the clones or the name of their clan?
Anyway, as of 1996, when one might argue the Labyrinth Clan was founded, the cloned gargs included Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu, Burbank and Delilah. There were also Mutates down there: Talon, Maggie the Cat, Claw and an imprisoned Fang. And a number of homeless humans who had found a home beneath.
Thailog's also a clone, but he wasn't exactly part of this clan.
Which one of the clone gargoyles is going to assume the position of leader of the Labyrinth?
At the moment, Talon is the leader down there.
if Sevarius (or anyone) cloned a human and speeded up the maturation rate would skin and hair pigmentation be different as it is for the garg clones?
ok, now a few questions about "The Reckoning"...
1. did Demona keep a "mosquito" in her belt buckle for each gargoyle or just Lexington?
2. did she and Thailog plan to get Elisa's DNA together or was everything about Delilah a secreat from Demona? what i mean is, did Demona plan on getting Elisa's DNA or not?
3. TGC episode "Genesis Undone" is not canon, and you've said that Thailog had not died in the fire, is that right? if so, would he have suffered any major lasting injuries from the fire? if he did survive, why did he let Demona go on running Nightstone Unlimited even though some of it belonged to him?
4. i'm guessing Fang went back to his cell, correct?
5. if Sevarius could so easily combine human and gargoyle DNA to make Delilah, why not mix and match different gargoyle DNA for a bit of diversity? or did he? i've noticed that the four main clones seem to have combinations of different gargs. for instance, Hudson's clone looks mostly like Hudson, but has Lex's coloring, and Brooklyn's clone looks mostly like Brooklyn, but has Broadway's coloring and fanned ears. was there mixing going on?
1. More than one for each.
3. He was laying low.
4. For a bit.
5. No. The coloring changes were a result of the forced aging. The same thing that caused Thailog's coloring to be different from Goliath's.
1) Does Burbank have a bad eye like Hudson?
2) Does Burbank,(after adjusting to making his own choices) like the same activities as Hudson?
3) Whose idea was it to make the clones? I don't mean YOU I mean Demona or Thailog. I mean I am sure that making clones is a very expensive and time consuming endevour and it seems odd to think Demona would be happy to have clones of the clan she hates. Of course Demona doesn't exactly think things out very well....
2. Not necessarily.
3. Thailog's initially. But Demona didn't resist the idea.
HI! Hope that you're not bored with me yet! Now on to the questions...
~ Since the clone Delilah is actually a cross between Demona and Elisa, is it possible that she could give birth or, like, break out of the stone-by-day spell?
Anything's possible, if you're going to put it that way. But largely, Delilah's genetic structure was taken from Demona. Only cosmetic elements were borrowed from Elisa. Of course Delilah does have some human DNA. But she's about 90% gargoyle.
Delilah is certainly capable of having a baby. So's Demona and Elisa. Doesn't mean any of them will.
And Delilah does turn to stone during the day.
Where oh where is this story on the web about Delilah and Goliath going out?
I've looked everywhere and can't find it.
I haven't written it. I've just talked about it on occasion. Here and at various Gatherings over the years.
since Burbank (Hudson's clone) was artificially aged to his prime wouldn't he be able to have children with another female garg? i'm really beginning to see why the clan was so wierded out by the clones...
If Demona had never "turned on" Thailog as she did in THE RECKONING, what would he have done with Delilah?
Frankly, he'd have kept her around. On the sly.
Delilah is a Human/Gargoyle hybrid but she seems to be more of a combination of Demona and Elisa as a garg as she was seen in "The Mirror". given that we've seen only one episode with Delilah but why does she seem totally garg without any human characteristics?
That's arguable. And I don't feel like arguing write now.
Largely, Thailog wanted a garg mate, but he wanted her to be visually reminiscent of Elisa.
unlike Thailog the other clones not only are different colors but are slighly different physically also such as Hollywood's extra horns when Broadway only has three, why is that?
Accelerating Growth may have additional side effects, but one thing to keep in mind is that Burbank, Malibu, Brentwood and Hollywood were all artificially aged into their prime. That makes them biologically older than the trio (who haven't fully matured yet) and biologically younger than Hudson.
Ok, now I'm focusing on Delilah.
Michael submitted a post asking about how Delilah would react to the fact "that she had no chance with Goliath", and you asked "before the date, during or after?". So, trying to be specific:
1a) Before the date, had Delilah realized that she was partly cloned from a human woman? b) Did she know who Elisa was (in terms of her relation to Derek and Goliath) before the date? c) Did she know that she was Elisa's clone?
2) Before the date (but after she was asked to go out with Goliath), did Delilah really believe that she had a chance of becoming Goliath's mate, or at least a chance of having future intimate relations with him?
2a) During the date, would Delilah feel jealous of Elisa? (kinda "duh", but I like to see it in writing) b) Would she act on these feelings?
3) After the date, when Elisa and Goliath realize that they were meant to be together, how does Delilah react to the rejection?
4) Who does Delilah fall for next?
5) Where did they go on the date?
2a. We'd focus more on the other way around.
3. Maybe with a little disappointment, but it was only one date.
4. Who says she does?
what ever happened to the clones of the gargoyles?
In my mind, they're still down in the Labyrinth.
My Q's about how you mentioned an attempt at a relationship between Delilah and Goliath.
This seems a little bit strange to me. I mean, you've mentioned over and over again that gargs mate for life. I can't see a gargoyle, well, "dating" because they are simply making an attempt at a relationship with someone, instead of really loving that person. If Goliath "dated" Delilah, wouldn't this be against the "Gargoyles mate for life" thing? Or is he just making a last, desperate attempt to break away from Elisa?
He's humoring Elisa. But not happily.
Just read your "Metamorphosis" ramble. Thanks for it.
"Metamorphosis" is one of my favorite episodes - largely because of what I thought was a very effective ending (Elisa letting Xanatos have it verbally for what he did to Derek, then weeping back at the clock tower); I certainly agree with you that it made a great tragic close to the story. Elisa's weeping scene remains for me, to this day, one of my favorite "great moments" in "Gargoyles".
And I was certainly fooled by Xanatos the first time that I saw this episode. I actually believed him when he made it look as if he wanted to help Derek. In fact, when he refused to let Sevarius cage Derek, saying, "He's a man, not an animal", I practically gave him a mental standing ovation. And then, of course, when I discovered the truth at the end....
But it's interesting to note that I got fooled by Xanatos even AFTER I was familiar with his being the main villain in the series. I knew perfectly well what he was capable of, and yet still actually wanted to think that his concern for Derek was genuine.
Sevarius's apparent death also took me quite by surprise; even though I knew that "Gargoyles" wasn't a typical Disney cartoon, I was still staring at the scene where he apparently gets electrocuted and Xanatos announces his death, with an attitude of "They actually killed somebody in a Disney television cartoon?" (Of course, I must have forgotten about the Wyvern massacre, the fates of the Captain and Hakon, and even Elisa getting shot in "Deadly Force" - although she doesn't actually die there - at the time). Sevarius turning out to be alive at the end definitely astonished me as well.
I don't recall, on the other hand, what I thought at the time about Brooklyn and Maggie's sub-plot (I hadn't even realized, I might add, until after reading your memo, that that and Derek's part of the story both shared the "self-deception" theme, although it makes perfect sense to me now). I did sympathize a lot with Maggie, though; she gets mutated as almost a conscript for a war that she knew nothing about.
One last little note of interest: although you don't mention it in your ramble, Xanatos and Sevarius tell an additional lie that doesn't even get exposed as a lie until later on in the series, about not yet having any gargoyle genetic material to create a clone from. And then we discover in "Double Jeopardy" that they'd already created a clone (given that they got the blood sample from Goliath needed to create Thailog before the gargs even left the castle in "Enter Macbeth").
As for Sevarius's name: well, I think that it's kind of appropriate that it would sound cliched, given the way that the guy revels in cliches.
Yeah. Now I can't imagine him with any other name.
And by the way, we knew Sevarius and Xanatos were lying about the clone thing even then.
Greg, I was thinking about the possible double date episode you mentioned you would have liked to have done if you had the chance to do more episodes. My question is this. How do you think Delilah would have reacted to the fact that she had no chance with Goliath? In my mind, I see her as very prone to fall for Goliath due to her programming. I figure that Goliath is as close as she is going to find to Thailog. Do you think her programming would make her submissive enough to just accept the fact that Goliath would not fall for her or do you think she would not give up that easily? Do you think there might be enough of Demona in her that she might react vengefully?
Are you talking before the date, during or after?
I noticed that Deliah wears metal "claws" on her fingers. Was this done because she doesn't have real claws due to her human DNA, or just because it looked cool?
I don't remember. I'd have to look at a model sheet or the episode again.
okay, I have alot of time on my hands and I was just reading the old archives. You said you orignally planned to have goliath go on a double date with elisa with delilah as his date. This seems really weird to me, and I think maybe even it woudl be majorly disconcerting and perverse almost for elisa that goliath would go out with delilah. I guess this is just my knee jerk reaction, but would you explain some of your thoughts on the reactions and thoughts of goliath and elisa on his choice of a date?
Who else could he choose? Elisa was pressuring him. She had to live with the consequences of her choice. That doesn't mean it isn't weird. But hell, that's half the fun. And it was Halloween.
Ok, let me cut my question into smaller bits (again, based on your revelation that "Thailog/Deliah wasn't over from my POV"). 1a) What exactly were you implying by the above statement? 1b) What is the nature of the Thailog/Delilah interaction you are implying in the above statement? 2) Will Thailog and Delilah resume their prior relationship? 3) When will the encounter/relationship implied by your statement occur (a general idea of the time, if possible, in relation to other events in the show (ie: several months after Hunter's Moon)). 4) How long will this encounter/relationship last? 5a) What would be Delilah's level of intelligence during this encounter/relationship with Thailog? 5b) How far would she have advanced beyond her original programming at the time of this encounter (or at the beginning of it, if it lasts any significant period of time)? 6) Was Delilah's attraction to Thailog that we saw in "The Reckoning", entirely a product of her programming, or was there something more? 7a) Is Thailog capable of true love? 7b) If the answer to 7a is yes, is he willing to admit/express these feelings, or will he deny them as Xanatos did until the end of "Eye of the Beholder"? 8) Considering how much of Xanatos's way of thinking was programmed into him, how concerned with immortality *is* Thailog?
1a. That their story hadn't ended.
1b. I'm not telling now.
2. Not exactly.
3. Don't have it nailed down with that kind of precision.
4. Not telling.
5a. Her intelligence has never been in question.
5b. Don't know.
6. All of the above.
7a. Everyone's capable. Doesn't mean everyone allows it to happen.
Alright, in Hunters Moon, my personal favorite episode, Demona almost unleashed a magical disease that would have killed all sentience. Gargoyles would be immune to it's effects thanks to the Praying Gargoyle.
Now we all know Goliath smashed the statue and saved the world. But what if this was not the case...
1. All humans would have died. Macbeth is obviously human. Would this not have qualified as death at Demona's hands, thus killing Demona (oops)?
2. If not, would she fall prey to it when she turned into human form? How would this work?
3. Would this spread to Avalon and/or the isle of the New Olympians?
4. How would it affect... Oberon's Children?
5. ...New Olympians?
6. ...Gargoyle clones?
7. Any other effects?
Thanks for your time. Love your rambles, by the way, look forward to next season's rambles.
More hypothetical questions... YAY!
1. I've answered this many times before. Try looking through the Demona or Macbeth archives. Briefly, it would depend on Demona's intent.
2. I'm sure she thought she was safe.
3. No reason why it wouldn't spread to New Olympus. No reason why it would spread to Avalon.
4. Potentially not at all.
5. Kill most of them probably.
6. Not at all.
7. Anyone who asks hypothetical questions based on untread pathes would die. :)
Having looked through the clan guessing contest, (my next post will be guessing), I realize the clones are one of the clans. [You explicitly gave .5 saying that a location was necessary as well] The thing I do not understand is how. They have one female, and even if they had a female for each male that would not be enough. The only way they could go on to 2158 would be with outside blood. Is that what happened? If so did that come from Goliath's clan? Other clans we have seen or heard of? Which? Combinations?
I have just posted a bunch of stored up questions (10 or so), I have more waiting, but I'll let them wait a bit longer (except the clan contest:), but I do want to take the opportunity to thank you again for reading and answering our questions, and, just as importantly, for creating a story that is so compelling as to grab and keep our interests as Gargoyles continues to do.
If you still are confused, you can reask this question after the contest is over. But I won't respond in any way to it now.
In Gargoyles Goliath and co live in the highest buildings like angels while the clones and mutates live in the deepest parts of the city like demons and devils.Did you do this on purpose? If so why?
Not in the way you're suggesting.
Though I suppose one could say that the mutates bought into their outcast status. The gargoyles ignored it. (Or largely.)
Hello, Greg! Well, this is my first query, so I hope I start off on a good foot (I haven't finished reading the archives, but I'm pretty sure these questions haven't been asked). Here we go:
1: Are the Gargoyle Clones still being affected by the Accelerated Growth Process (are they still aging at an accelerated rate), or are they aging normally?
2: Why does Brentwood(sp?) and Hollywood look alittle different (besides color) from Lex and Broadway? I have ideas, but I'm not sure. Is there a reason for this?
3: Why do the 4 clones (besides Thailog and Delilah) have digitized voices?
1. Out of their tubes, they are now aging normally.
2. They're biologically older.
3. Do they? I don't remember that. Are you sure? In "The Reckoning"?
I had a couple of questions regarding the double date you said you planned on sending Elisa and Goliath on.
1)In your mind, would Goliath have been dating Delilah out of any real interest in her as a person, or would it only have been a superficial attraction based on her resemblance to Elisa?
2)Obviously, Elisa wouldn't be thrilled about the idea of Goliath dating anyone. Do you think, however, that she would resent Goliath (either consciously or subconciously) for dating Delilah, who basically looks like a gargoyle version of herself? I ask this mainly due to the events of "The Mirror." Goliath's statment about not recognizing her beauty when she was human, coupled with his reluctance to answer her question as to whether he thought she was ugly, could be interpreted to mean that he only found her beautiful when she had a gargoyle's form.(Granted, I think you stated previously that this wasn't what you meant for him to be saying, but it could be interpreted that way)
3)You said you were considering Jason as a potential date for Elisa. Given the fact that Elisa told him in Hunter's Moon 3 that there was someone in her life who would always come before him, wouldn't it be uncharacteristically cruel for her to then turn around and make him think he had a chance with her after all?
1. I think it would have had a lot MORE to do with the fact that Elisa WANTED him to "see other people, gargoyles, whatever..." Delilah is the only real option in NYC at this time.
2. O.K., for starters, saying "they're dating" is pushing it. Rather, Elisa and Goliath experiment with not seeing each other. Their dates (for this one night) are basically being used a bit. So, yes, I think seeing Goliath with Delilah would disturb Elisa. And frankly, seeing Delilah period is just disturbing for Elisa. But seeing Elisa with another man would also disturb Goliath. They're trying to make the best of their mutual decision that seeing each other is impossible. But let's just say the date does not go smoothly.
And by the way, you're misrepresenting me with regards to "The Mirror". I think in fact that Goliath did NOT find Elisa sexually attractive until "The Mirror" allowed him to see her through a gargoyle's eyes. There was always chemistry there. But it was based on (a) her physical attraction to him and (b) a strong emotional and spiritual connection. After "The Mirror", Goliath also maintained a physical attraction to Elisa. He was no longer blinded by her human characteristics.
3. Would it be any crueler for her to go out with Morgan, who had no idea about her relationship with G? At least Jason wouldn't be blind-sided. Anyway, she isn't trying to be cruel. This is a sincere attempt. As far as her rational mind is concerned, the guy might really have a chance if things work out. I'm not saying there's no potential for cruelty involved. Welcome to the world of dating. But in any case, it's one date. A first date. So let's not over-react.
Here's my try for the 14 clans, Greg:
7. New Olympus
8. the Coldtrio
12. a Space Station
Thanks for your time!
O.K. Once more. "Mutates/Clones" isn't a place. "Coldtrio" isn't a place. I won't say whether the Mutates/Clones and/or the Coldtrio represent an entire clan or not. But we're looking for locations here. LOCATIONS. PLACES named with as much specificity as they've been named in the show.
For example, saying "Japan" would get you only a half point, because we've been more specific. Saying "Ishimura" would get you a full point. Saying "Ishimura, Japan" would get you that same full point, because the "Ishimura" implies the Japan, so you haven't added anything. On the other hand, saying "Guatemala" also gets you a full point, because in that case, we've never been more specific. But saying "Obsidiana, Zafiro, Turquesa, Jade and some eggs" as complete as that is, would get you ZERO points, because they are the Mayan clan's POPULation, not its LOCation.
(Sorry, Ambrosia, I didn't mean to pick on you. I just want to make sure everyone gets the rules. And I don't want to have to explain them again.)
Seven full points. Two half points.
Are the clones the same physical ages as the Manhattan Gargoyles? I don't think you've answered this before. Brooklyn, Broadway and Lexington are younger Gargoyles. Would their clones be older and stronger to give them an edge. Would Hudson's clone be younger? How about Delilah? Basically, what are the physical ages of the clones? Hmm...I could've just asked that. Ah well, shouldn't waste good typing. Have a nice day/night!
Malibu, Brentwood, Burbank, Hollywood and Delilah were all aged to the same age. Mid-twenties (in human years). That makes the trio younger physically then their clones. Hudson older than his.
Today you revealed that "Thailog/Delilah wasn't over from my POV". Were you planning on having them get back together early on, before Delilah became educated and understood that Thaylog was trouble? (In other words, she would go to him because she was still controlled by her programming and not because Thaylog won her affection legitimately?)
You're question makes so many assumptions, there's no way for me to answer it simply. And I'm not prepared to go into the ENTIRE story here. Try breaking the question down a bit and resubmitting it.
At any rate, it's not as simple as your alternatives suggest.
Hi Greg! You've previously mentioned having big plans for the clones that extended to 2158 and beyond, and today you confirmed that some would have children. 1) When you mentioned having plans that extended far into the future, did you mean the present clones or their children? 2) If it's the former, how would they survive that long? 3) Are the clones' children going to remain a separate clan, or will they merge into other clans? 4) Are you going to try to completely nullify what TGC did to the clones, or have you incorporated it into your future plans for them? 5a) Do you have any plans for moving the clones out of the Labyrinth? 5b) If so, where will they move to and why? 6) Will the clones be able to produce genetically normal gargoyle offspring? 7) If you've given this any thought, would the offspring have a parent clone's backwards-coloring or that of the gargoyle one or either of the parents was cloned from? 8) What was Elisa's reaction to finding out she had a clone? 9) If Delilah has a child, how would Elisa react to it?
1. I'm not sure I understand the question...
2. See the answer to 4.
3. I can't answer this while the clan contest is ongoing.
4. Honestly, I haven't decided yet. Though I didn't care for the episode, it's absolutely one of the easiest to fix. Seems to me the clones could wake up at any time. So if the series came back in the present, I could wake them then. Or I could wake them anytime before 2158. But I figure with Goliath Chronicles it's going to be an all or nothing thing. So I can't make this specific decision in a vacuum. Right now, I'm leaning toward ignoring all post-Journey continuity. But I haven't made -- and probably can't make -- a final decision until I know in what form the series will resurface.
5a. See the answer to 3.
7. Being color-blind, it's not the first thing I think about.
8. On the surface, she was annoyed with Demona and Thailog, but open to being friends with Delilah. (She had seen the effect Goliath's harsh reaction had with Thailog.) Underneath that think the whole thing made her anxious. I do not think as of "The Journey" she had as yet gone down to meet Delilah.
9. Whoah, you're getting ahead of yourself...
Hi mr. Weisman! Yet another ASK GREG question...
I was wondering about what Sevarius said in Metamorphosis. He says that a geneticly engineered creature will take years to develop, so he created a mutegen to inject on human host.
1.Just how long does it take to create genticly a creature?
2.Did you ever plan to have artificial creatures created by mankind in Gargoyles?
Thanx, and have a nice day!
1. As I've said before, I'm not big on quantifying things.
2. Eventually. The clones were a first step.
Ok, it's a silly question. But that big Iron Cross looking armband that Malibu wore really stood out. Did it have any significance?
Not to me. But it looked cool.
1) I am sure that Brooklyn's infatuations with both Maggie and Angela were BOTH hormonal and emotional. But which did you feel that it was more of?
2) It almost seemed out of character that Brook didn't react to Delilah with some interest. Did you ever toy with the idea?
3) Does Brooklyn's clone share his weakness for the opposite sex?
1. I'm not big on quantifying emotions.
2. No. For starters, I think all the clones sorta creeped the Trio out. And the whole Elisa/Delilah thing was just too wierd.
3. Most heterosexuals share that weakness.
Did you think about expanding the Thailog/Delilah relationship beyond the master/slave idea?? After all, combining Demona's and Elisa's DNA had to make Delilah more inteligent than Thailog realized. It just seems that since Xanatos has Fox, Thailog may need/want a Delilah. A father like son situation.
Thailog/Delilah wasn't over from my POV.
Did you ever consider bringing the clones back to life; perhaps with the aid of Xanatos and/or Alexander?? It just seems this could be another way for the Xanatoses to repay Goliath and the clan.
Who said the clones were dead?
Hi Greg! #1) Are any of the Labirynth clones going to have children? #2) Will Thailog? Thanks!
2. Good question.
Is Delilah (my favorite clone!)capable of reproduction, or is she a mule due to her having both human and Gargoyle DNA? If she can have children, can she have them with just Gargoyles, just humans, or could she possibly have offspring with both?
Delilah is genetically much more Gargoyle than human. She is capable of laying a gargoyle egg. Thailog would have insisted on that. But she couldn't mate with a human without some scientific or magical help.
Does Thailog have an Oedipus complex? I mean, the combination of his effort to kill his "fathers" (Goliath, Xanatos, and Sevarius), and his choosing for a mate first Demona (Goliath's original mate) and then Delilah (a combination of Demona and Elisa, Goliath's past and future mates, with this feature being his idea) does get me wondering whether he could have such a feature.
That's a fair assessment.
Greg, I was the one who asked about the Demona/macbeth link carrying over to delilah, namely because if Delilah was created from half of Demona's DNA, would the link be part of her DNA or would it be connected to her in another way, like through her soul?
I don't see any connection existing there.
Since Delilah's DNA comes partly from Elisa, does that mean some of her biological characteristics will be human in nature (in essense Delilah being the first half-human half-gargoyle) or were Elisa's contributions to her genetic makeup only cosmetic in nature (face, voice and so on) making Delilah a "normal" Gargoyle biologically?
If the former what kind of biological differences to normal gargoyles would Delilah have because of this?
Delilah is clearly more gargoyle than human. So I'd say she's more of a biological gargoyle than a half-breed. She definitely turns to stone during the day, for example. But Sevarius was mucking about with forces he can't have fully researched. So who knows?
Eyes hurt. Reading old Archive. Ow.
Should've wrote What were your plans on prev. Questions. So I will.
What were <some of> your plans for the Clones?
I'm sorry, but as I've said before, this is not the forum or format for me to give novel-length responses to impossibly huge questions. Suffice to say, I had lots of plans for them extending to 2158 and beyond...
How does Talon feel about raising a Gargoyle/Human hybrid who looks and sounds exactly like his big sister?
(What did you expect me to say?)
In the time the clones have been living with Talon in the Labyrinth, have they evolved at all beyond their programming or would they run back and "Obey Thailog" at the drop of a hat if they saw him?
That would make the premise of a good story don't you think?
At any rate, that was my plan.
I have a kazillion questions but I'll try to keep from going over five.
1)What did you have planed for a)Max Loew and the Golem?
2)Would King Arthur have recruited any more new knights besides Griff?
3)Would Sora, Taro, Vinnie, Talon, or the Pack have appeared in "Bad Guys"?
4)Finnaly, would the Clones become more intelligent or would they stay dirt stupid?
Thank you very much.
These are kinda all on separte topics, but....
1a. No immediate big plans, but I had some adventure stuff in mind.
1b. Adventure and romance.
1c. See 1a.
2. Eventually, but not right away. I didn't want the cast of a quest show to grow too big or unwieldy.
3. Sora and the Pack definitely. Taro & Vinnie, maybe. Talon. Doubtful. (At least not in my immediate plans.)
4. They were never dirt stupid. They were dirt ignorant. There's a huge difference. And in my plan, they would have been educated.
How would you describe the clones personality-wise? (I know that this sounds like a volume length question but what I mean is for example Lex can be described as a techno-Geek, and Brooklyn can be described as thrill seeking second in command, etc. So if you were describing each clone in one line like that, how would you describe Brentwood, Malibu, Hollywood, Burbank, and Delilah?)
Trouble is I wouldn't describe Lex as a "techno-geek" or Brooklyn as a "thrill seeking second in command".
Must you humans name everything? It's not real to you 'til you've named it, defined it, given it limits. Does the sky need a name? Does the river?
How come the spell linking Demona and macbeth didn't carry over to Delilah to a lesser extent?
Why would it?
Me again! Since I tend to think up questions one at atime, your request is one I can easily handle! Anyway:
1. Does Thailog have a certain attraction to Elisa? His behavior in "Double Jeopardy" and "The Reckoning" Seem to indicate this (the way he speaks and acts toward her in "Double Jeopardy" and the fact that he mixed her DNA with Demona's instead of making a ordinary clone of Demona to create Delilah in "The Reckoning"). If he does, is it because of the fact that he was created with Goliath's DNA? Or does he just naturally find something about her attractive?
Thailog clearly finds Elisa attractive.
Now as to the cause....
Well you could attribute it to Goliath's DNA. But that sounds extremely unlikely as Goliath wasn't physically attracted to Elisa until he saw her transformed into a Gargoyle in "The Mirror".
So you either have to attribute it to some facet or facets of Xanatos' programming...
Or to the knowledge of Goliath's feelings for Elisa.
Or something else.
Greetings Mr. Weisman, one more question
1. Concerning the Clones (the clones of the clan excluding Thaliog), do you feel that all of the clones cluttered up the story? Are they just a plot device?
They weren't just a plot device. I don't think they cluttered up the story. I had plans for them.
I gather you weren't a fan.
Hi there Greg... welcome back! Lemme jump right on in:
1) Ok, we know that demona felt love for thailog (or at least as much love as she's able to feel), however, what exactly were Thailog's feelings for her? Was he really only using her for money and (I'm assuming sex also)? Or did he ever feel genuine that was something close to love?
2) What are Delilah's true feelings towards Thailog? i mean, does she Love him (or even really like him?) or is she only following her programing?
1. Gotta say that Thailog doesn't get the whole "love" concept yet. Not exactly programmed for it, and nothing in his experience has taught him that lesson. It's easy to forget that he was practically born yesterday.
2. Delilah was born even closer to yesterday than Thailog. Asking her to distinguish between her true feelings and her programming at this early stage in her development (i.e. at the time of "The Reckoning") is tough.