A Station Eight Fan Web Site
Just my $.02 worth on "Outfoxed". I'll leave the in-depth analysis up to Todd and Aris.
When I saw Preston Vogel for the first time, I honestly thought that is was Owen. All the characters extremely complex; I never thought that it was a copout from an animation standpoint. I went right to wondering what Owen's hidden agenda was. All the other villains had a hidden agenda, why not Owen. His "I've got a secret" attitude was evident from "The Awakening".
By the end of the episode I started having doubts that Vogel was Owen, but I didn't entirely dismiss the idea until I watched "Golem". The amount of care that Vogel had to give to a very sick Renard was more time consuming that even Owen could handle.
While I was expecting a hidden agenda out of this episode, (how could I not, Xanatos was involved via Fox) I never expected it to be Fox's agenda which was her relation to Renard. While I definitely understood what the "Tests" were, my vocabulary is woefully inadequate, so I did not know that Renard meant Fox.
I was not surprised by a pregnant cartoon character. I grew up with the Flintstones; and Wilma being pregnant with Pebbles. Back then, knitting baby booties was the way to indicate that someone was expecting. (The last sentence is for those readers who are half our ages <g> Boy do I feel old)
Yeah, me too.
Obviously, Fox wasn't as ground-breaking as Wilma. But I think she's up there.
Interesting side note, Laura San Giamcomo and Jonathan Frake's wife Genie Francis were both expecting at the same time as Fox.
You've stated that you'd like to see the people who voiced the characters portray them in a live action movie. However John Rhys-Davies would make a fairly poor MacBeth because of his size. So excluding him who would you like to see portray MacBeth?
I don't know. Connery? He's probably too old now. Guess we'd have to hold auditions. :)
Actually, I'm not sure I agree with you about John.
CITY OF STONE PART 3
Well, now that you mention it, I suppose the title doesn't adequately capture the full impact of the multi-parter (especially the flashbacks), but I never noticed it before. And it is still pretty cool.
Yeah, it always did bug me that Elisa was facing the wrong way and began talking when she reverted back (not only that, but her eyes somehow closed while she was still stone--and Owen somehow managed to stand straight up).
Owen's "awakening". Very rarely do we get that much emotion out of him. ;) And I love the look he has when he sees the phone cord is broken.
And then there's his line as he surveys the "clear signs of a struggle" in the studio--"You've managed to stop the broadcast I see." Or something like that.
It wasn't until after THE GATHERING that I knew what Xanatos was meant when he mentioned "mixing magics." Before that, I had always wondered what he had been referring to with that line. The spell seemed like it was of the Grimorum. But I let it slide until all was revealed, and then I marveled at how early this seed was planted.
The news scene is indeed quite fun. Wasn't that "I never watch television" woman the one from the Diamond Exchange back in HER BROTHER'S KEEPER? Who did her voice in this ep?
It's very hard for me to watch Macbeth, Duncan and their sons on their outing--especially how quickly Duncan seems to forget that Macbeth saved his life. Neil Dickson does some very good voice acting, as you have pointed out. It's especially good with some of the more inventive touches of writing, such as Duncan switching to the use of the "royal plural" when Macbeth pleads on behalf of Demona and the other gargoyles.
Ah, the Weird Sisters as the Witches. Y'know, I actually heard about a production of the play in which the Witches actually DID appear throughout the play in different guises--most noticably as three Nurses in the "Out, out damned spot" scene. It adds an extra power to their presence--especially in this four-parter. And I too like Luna's incredulous "You would lecture US on Fate?" Kath Soucie does some incredible voice-work throughout this series.
It took me a couple viewings before I could pick out Macduff, but it was fun once I did. I think he had a scar on his face...but I can't be sure.
One thing that bothers me about the "gargoyle smashing" sequence is that the animators can't seem to keep track of which gargoyle(s) was(were) smashed. Oh well, Demona's Second still makes a good impression. I just love the look he gives Demona when she says there's no one else fit to lead the last of the gargoyles. Talk about insulting!
Once again, Bodhe suggests the submissive action and once again Macbeth follows it. Says his good-byes (yes, it is quite touching, and the fear in Grouch's voice when she says "Husband?" after Macbeth's "Know that I will always love you" is quite good).
Macbeth's interchange with Demona and the Weird Sisters' spell...what can I say. It's well animated, well acted, and a wonderful sequence. I did indeed understand that the Wierd Sisters appeared differently to D and M, and I figured out most of the aspects of the spell that were revealed in Part Four (and may I just say, that the spell has rules the crueler side of me tends to revel in).
I always wondered what Demona was thinking when she saw Macbeth and Gruoch together--her face shifted from one emotion to the next (a far more guarded look) so quickly. Maybe that was her intent.
Love the battle, though I do wish we saw Macbeth putting up a better fight against Duncan. He probably would have--if Macduff hadn't tried to blind-side him. "Treacherous human" is right!
The globe was a cheat, yes. But its effect on Duncan remains one of my two favorite death scenes in GARGOYLES. How can you beat fire shooting out of a man's head and mouth?
Ed Gilbert sure read a great "THE NIGHT IS WON!" line. I don't know why, but it's appealing in a funny sort of way (maybe the crack in the voice).
Canmore proves that he inherited a bit of his father's mean streak--and deviousness. The mask of the Hunter passes on.
Meanwhile, Macbeth is crowned, and Demona named (and cheered by the humans). This is another of those "heart-breaking" scenes because I know that eventually things just have to fall apart. Still, it is nice to see everyone happy for this brief moment. And if you look in the crowd scene, you'll see a brunette-woman who shares Princess Katharine's fashion sense. ;)
I recognized the Sisters as Police officers (and liked it).
I picked up on the "semi-running gag" of "That's one way to end an argument" when Elisa and Owen turn to stone mid-struggle.
One of my favorite exchanges:
GOLIATH: What is Elisa doing here?
BROOKLYN: She doesn't look happy.
XANATOS: Owen sometimes has that effect on people.
It's just so fun.
I figured there was something behind the tapestry when so much emphasis was placed on Bronx clawing it. And I knew Bronx was going to save Elisa as soon as the cliff-hanger happened. I still didn't like having to wait for the next episode, though.
Multi-parter's coming to an eventful end, sure enough.
I don't think it was the same woman from the Diamond Exchange. The voice here was Rachel Ticotin's.
And Ed Gilbert was just great. He's sorely missed.
Time to Ramble...
Fueled by (what I perceived in my own mind to be) the success of "City of Stone", I began to get more daring in my story structure. In Revelations, Cary and I utilized the time-honored tradition of "in medias res", where a story starts in the middle and catches the viewer up along the way. (Thanks, Homer.)
We also used voice over narration for the first time. It's interesting because Matt just seemed like a perfect character to do that kind of Philip Marlowe naration. But at the same time, it was daring, because of course, Matt is not a regular. The audience didn't know him that well. I think it showed the strength of our supporting cast that Matt could carry a show like this. Of course, having the massively talented Tom Wilson playing Matt helped. I knew he could handle it. And he did. Tom is terrific and VERY funny in the booth. I hope someday he gets his own tv show. (I also loved him as Coach Fredericks on Freaks & Geeks.)
The basic springboard for this episode came from four sources.
1. The notion that eventually Matt would have to find out about the Gargoyles. We didn't want to just throw it away or constantly come up with new excuses why he had "just missed them" or whatever.
2. Matt's pursuit of the Illuminati. What began as a Michael Reaves throwaway line in "The Edge" had evolved into its own subplot. Cary's "Silver Falcon" had taken us to the next level of hearsay. It was time to finally bring the Society into the series.
3. Disney's desire to do a cross-over event with their new "TOWER OF TERROR" ride down in Orlando. Unfortunately, they had wanted this much earlier -- in 1994. We had piggy-backed our World Premiere Screening of Gargoyles down in Florida in September of 1994 with the press event for the Tower's Grand Opening. (That's how Keith David, Marina Sirtis, Salli Richardson, Gary Krisel and I wound up riding the Tower of Terror together on the night before it opened to the general public.) But this was the soonest we could fit the notion into our continuity. You'll see in the memo that I just posted previous to this ramble, that when we were at the outline stage, I was still trying to more firmly tie the two properties together. Partway through the script process, someone at Disney changed their mind. They didn't want the tie-in anymore. I shrugged, I think. And the HOLLYWOOD TOWER became the HOTEL CABAL.
4. An episode of the British TV series, THE AVENGERS, called something like "The House That Jack Built". This was a classic that we ripped off shamelessly. (Wait, wait, I mean we paid it homage shamelessly.) It was about this nutty house designed, I believe, to trap spies inside and drive them bonkers and break them. Sound familiar? John Steed and Emma Peel redone as Goliath and Matt. Didn't you notice the resemblance?
(Gee, so far I've credited Raymond Chandler, Homer and THE AVENGERS as influences. What a fun episode.)
We reintroduced Hacker, mostly so that we could bookend him at the end as Matt's new Illuminati contact. This was something that Cary and I planned as far back as Silver Falcon. We always had to keep Hacker's agenda straight. Make sure any info he gave Matt was a wild goose chase, at least as far as Hacker knew.
In this episode, and only in this episode, Maria Chavez is played by the talented Elisa Gabrielli (also known as Obsidiana). Rachel Ticotin, our usual Chavez, was just unavailable. So Elisa filled in. She has a lighter sound. But I think it works. Did anyone notice? Both Elisa and Rachel are great. I used Elisa as the Doll Demon in 3x3 Eyes (now available on VHS and DVD).
My 3 year old son Ben, who at this point is used to me writing down what he and his older sister says during these viewings told me to write down the following: "When it's night, Demona's a gargoyle. When it's day, she's a human. He likes it when Demona's a human." This had absolutely nothing to do with this episode, but hey, who cares?
I really loved what Ed Asner did with the throwaway character of Jack Dane. "Tell him he's a bum." Dane was so much fun, I brought him back for TURF later.
Matt climbs into the clock tower and finds the TV he helped Elisa with on the day they met. That was fun. This whole episode ties back to Matt's Illuminati musings in "The Edge". It was nice to find another connection. Also, Elisa's been lying to him as long as they've known each other. Nice to remind the audience of that as well.
I like the "family of gorillas" line.
"The Dental Plan" line is vintage Cary Bates.
Elisa: "Matt, you haven't said three words all night..."
Matt: "Let me drive." HEY! THREE WORDS! :) This is fun because, I always thought of Elisa as someone who was such a control freak, she never let her partner drive her car. A big part of this episode, though it could easily sneak past you what with everything else going on, is revealing more facets of Elisa's personality. We learn much more about her and she grows here too.
It's fun to establish Xanatos as "a lower eschelon member". Immediately makes the Illuminati impressive, if Xanatos barely registers on their scale. Also sets up eventual conflicts with him.
First act cliffhanger: Here the threat is Matt. Again, how well did you all think you knew Matt? Here we're inside his point of view -- his narration. But we still try to play him edgy enough that we don't know if he'll kill them both. It helps that we opened with the shocker that he betrayed Goliath to Mace. How many people bought that? Thought Matt was the Judas that Mace said he was?
Anyway, I really like this scene. Elisa yelling at Matt. Matt getting out of the car and yelling at... no one. And Elisa's quiet revelation that Matt isn't crazy... "They don't follow me everywhere." Again, this line was as important for Elisa as for Matt. Sure she can count on the Gargoyles for help. But I never wanted it to seem like Lois and Superman. Like he was always around or would here her with super-senses everytime she screamed. Most of the time, Elisa's on her own.
"This time I'll drive."
Fun to see the gargoyles reactions when Matt is introduced. Goliath's not upset. He appreciates that Elisa has a loyal partner and probably gave her permission to bring Matt in from the cold long before. The truth is they know Matt already.
Elisa: "better late than never".
And then immediately Goliath is suspicious. "Trust is not... to be bartered."
As creators, we were playing both ends here. Omitting pieces of conversation. Trying to get the audience to believe that Matt might in fact be betraying G. But also making it believable that in hindsight, he wasn't. Not cheating, in other words.
At this point, my six year old daughter Erin said: "I don't like Bluestone in this one. He's usually very nice. But in this one he's mean." That's how she saw him. Not righteously angry with Elisa for the lies. Just mean.
It took remarkably more effort than I'd have expected to get things to hook up with our Teaser from the beginning of the act. To help, I reused a couple of Mace's line as prompts to the audience.
It's fun to hear Tom Wilson playing Matt playing at being a bad guy.
I like all the hotel references. "Check out time" etc.
Mace falls down the shaft and grabs the cables with his bare hands. One hundred years old or not, that's gotta hoit.
I like Matt using his coat as a parachute. That wouldn't be necessary except for that darn Gallileo. If it weren't for him, Goliath, being heavier, could have fallen faster than Matt to catch up to him. :)
And of course, I enjoy the irony of Mace being trapped in a Hell of his own making. And i like the notion that the Illuminati just left him there to rot. He had outlived his usefulness. A non-member had found him thanks to his annoying sentimental habit of visiting Pine Lawn. AND he had failed to hold the Gargoyle in the Cabal. Breaking a perfect record. Woops.
Goliath refers to Bluestone as his friend. That's to make sure the audience is clear that Goliath was in on the plan from the beginning. Later, I gathered, some people still didn't get that.
We have a great Turning to Stone sequence here. Every once in a while it's nice to remind the audience that this is unique and special. Seeing it through a new characrer's eyes is a great way to do that.
I love Elisa and Matt's conversation. Elisa reveals that she's subconsciously been keeping the gargs to herself because it made her feel special. Explains a lot about "Her Brother's Keeper", doesn't it? And Matt admits to something similar. I think we all do little things to help ourselves stand out, even if no one notices them but us.
Maria then helps us see that Matt and Elisa are going to be okay.
And finally, our Hacker tag. (This episode had like six tags.) Matt gets his pin. I thought that was kinda cool...
What say all of you....
Time to Ramble...
My three year old son Ben watched the opening titles for about the five hundredth time. On the one hand, he made the point that it was getting dull seeing this same opening. He wanted me to fast-forward to the actual story.
On the other hand, he spent the time reviewing "the rules". How the gargs turn to stone during the day. How Goliath is the leader. Etc.
One thing we always cheated on was how Fortress-2 landed. There it is on the ground awaiting it's maiden voyage, and I just don't see any landing gear.
Vogel is introduced. This is another thing where I had to carefully explain my long-term intent behind the screen in order to get a model for the character that really looked like Owen but wasn't his twin. I remember a lot of people on the Disney Afternoon mailing list reacting negatively to Preston in this episode. Like he was a feeble imitation of Owen. Like we didn't know how to do any other kind of executive assistant. I was simultaneously amused and annoyed by those kind of comments. So now I'm curious. What was your initial reaction to Vogel? And what do you think of him now?
As usual, Travis has old-school attitude when interviewing his subjects. I like that. Makes him more of a character and not just a reporter place-holder.
Fox in casual clothes. With a very casual, yet strangely intense attitude. "I know what happens next," Fox says to David.
My six year old daughter Erin asked, "Why is she watching [Travis' report] like that?" She could tell something was up there.
And in fact, like UPGRADE, this was another episode where we were intentionally trying to show that Fox was David's equal. We show it physically in their martial arts work out. And we show it by giving her a ruthless and complex plot to take Cyberbiotics. In fact, in this episode, when you add in the fact that David is clearly in the dark about her pregnancy test, she seems to be a little equaler than he is.
Fortress-2 takes off. And Goliath sends us into flashback. This is flat-out padding. For some reason, though the script is the same basic length as any of our scripts, this one timed out short after story-boarding was done. (Most of my stories time out too long.) So we added this flashback. I think it was a mistake. It kills the stories momentum, and we already had the sequence later where Renard shows all the important scenelets to Goliath. Those become incredibly redundant. When you add in the "Previously on Gargoyles" opening, it was just too much.
Elisa reveals the show's Hill Street Blues influence by telling Goliath to "be careful out there."
Goliath gets attacked by cybots. As noted, any individual cybot is no match for him. But they have strength in numbers. I wanted to show that Goliath can still kick some ass when motivated. So the cybots shoot at him. And his only response is "That. Stings." Very intense. Unfortunately, I think sound-wise the line gets buried.
And that's a general problem with the episode. On a technical level this just wasn't one of our best. The animation isn't awful, but it's mediocre. Goliath's size relationship gets screwed up here and there. (Particularly in the brig sequences.) The story's padded by flashbacks. Our normally great sound team, didn't do the most inspiring job on this one either. It just generally feels like one that got away from us.
I still think there's some great stuff in it. And the revelation of Fox's pregnancy actually makes it something of a landmark (both for our series and for animated series in general), but the execution never quite lived up to its potential. Oh, well.
CONTINUITY & INTRIGUE
Did anyone remember Cyberbiotics before this ep? Had you ever wondered who Xanatos was stealing from in the pilot? We knew that Cyberbiotics abandoned their underground base, which became the home of the Mutates. Now we were rebuilding the air fortress and revealing that the CYberbiotics Tower is still in business.
Also, Renard mentions Gen-U-Tech. And the revelation that Sevarius and Burnett used to work for Cyberbiotics. Of course, Renard thinks that Xanatos stole Sevarius and Owen away. We know better. We knew even then that Sevarius is much better suited to work for a man like Xanatos than Renard. And of course, now we know why Owen was Xanatos-bound as well. But what did you guys think of that minor revelation at the time?
Renard's opinion of Xanatos is probably colored by his relationship to his daughter: "And that's the least that viper has stolen from me." Did you stop at that moment to consider what that meant and what he meant by the "My Anastasia. My Janine." line? Did anyone (from Renard's name, if nothing else) guess that Fox was his daughter, before the tag? Who did you think Anastasia and Janine were at that time? Or did Goliath's follow up line, "My angel of the night." distract you from considering these questions?
At this point, just before the Janine line, Erin (who has seen these before, but not recently) remembered: "That's Fox's daddy!"
Goliath has some cool lines here too. "I belong to no one." "I serve no master."
And Renard (voiced by Robert Culp to perfection) has some great lines too: "Not my fault, not my fault. You sound like every human employee I've ever FIRED." and "Take some responsibility."
What was fun for me, although maybe for no one else, was (a) to get some hard thoughts about both the need and the difficulty of maintaining personal integrity up onto the screen and (b) doing that by lecturing to Goliath, arguably one of the most "integrous" characters I've ever written. (b) served (a), by showing that even Goliath can be prone to slipping.
The thing is that integrity really matters to me. And yet, I don't know how much of it I exercise in my own life. I really do try. But it's so hard. And not because I'm a dishonest person, but more because I'm lazy. It's easier to shift blame, to tell white lies, etc. The alternative takes effort and vigilance. I think the rewards are immense, even if the costs are too. But I ain't kidding myself about the difficulty.
The martial arts scene. Reminiscent of the scene from the Edge where Owen toppled David. Here we hinted even more strongly that Fox is Renard's daughter. David is basically giving her permission to back out of the plan, to save face and exit, BEFORE she destroys her father. It's not that David really cares about Halcyon. I think he's thinking about his relationship to his own father. David likes to believe (at this stage in the series) that he's evolved beyond the need for a parental relationship. But "Vows" sort of demonstrates that his relationship with Petros is much more complex than that. David still needs parental approval and is somewhat amazed (at least subconsciously) that Fox does not. Again, in this episode, Fox is more than his equal.
And now the doctor calls with test results. David shows legitimate fear here for a moment. He's not thinking pregnancy. He's worried maybe she's sick or something. She enjoys toying with him. Maybe she's just in a mood. But her armor is on in force in this ep. We won't really get INSIDE Fox until "The Gathering" two-parter.
Finally, Goliath acknowledges his crime: "I was wrong." Cary had this great line for Renard: "I'm glad you're gargoyle enough to admit it."
Robert Culp and Peter Scolari were an interesting pair as Renard and Vogel. Culp was tough in the booth. Very precise. Very clear ideas about how he wanted to play the character. Tougher on his performance than Jamie and I were. And the results show.
Peter was a dream to work with. We spent an hour talking after the recording (about Busom Buddies, mostly). He's an incredibly nice guy. And he picked up the character right away. Despite the fact that we didn't have Jeff Bennett there to do a little Owen for him. He just got it.
Until the end, Vogel really plays Renard in this. He knows how much Renard hates whining blame-shifters, so he's constantly saying things like "You can place the blame on me if you like." in order to defuse any of Renard's suspicions.
But in a more subtle way, Renard is unwittingly playing upon Vogel as well. He doesn't intrude on Vogel's phone calls. He treats him with respect and gives him credit ("You and I built this ship together"). Insists that Vogel save the people in the tower, even if it means Renard's own life. We can see that Vogel was willing to take Fox's money for a bit of corporate espionage. But Vogel is not a killer. (It's important to see that he views Goliath as a creature.) This partially explains his turnaround at the end. (Which some people complained about.) All along he's been trying to get Renard to GET OFF THE SHIP. But Renard forces his hand. And when push comes to shove, Vogel likes Renard too much to see him die. "Mr. Vogel, I knew you wouldn't let me down." "You have that effect on people." And then Goliath basically bluffs him at the end there into confessing, screwing up their relationship.
But Goliath fixes it again. His last discussion with Renard sets up the reconciliation between them that must have taken place before "Golem".
At any rate, it's also nice to see Goliath make a NEW friend. This was important, because that has always been Goliath's goals. To make friends with humans on his own terms. Every once in a while, we had to show it working. Couldn't just be ONLY Elisa forever.
Ben weighed in at this point and said, "Daddy, I love Xanatos. And I love Fox." Of course, Ben and Erin dressed up as David and Fox at the last Gathering. In fact they dressed up in the martial arts outfits from this episode. Thus the affinity. I once played Theseus in the play THE WARRIOR'S HUSBAND. And Edmund in KING LEAR. It gave me an on-going affinity for both characters and awakened my interest in "The Bastard" archetype.
Now the tag. I'm usually pretty proud of our tags. They often advance the overall story as much as the entire episode. But this is one of my favorites. "Hello, Janine." "Hello, daddy." Was anyone ready for that? And her attitude: "Almost got you that time, didn't I?" The whole sense that Fox is in all this just for kicks. She's not as acquisitive as her husband. He'd always take the path of LEAST resistance to a goal. If Renard would give Janine the company, X would suggest she ask for it. But she doesn't care about the company. ONLY the game. X likes the game. But he's about RESULTS. All established in one little scene.
And of course that slick little pregnancy revelation. I think that was one of the most revolutionary and flat-out subversive things we did on the whole show. Was anyone ready for that? We had hinted at it with the "genetically compatible" line in "Eye of the Beholder" and obvioulsy with "It's your doctor... with test results." But I think it was quite the shocker.
And Fox is so tough. Pregnant and back on the hang-glider. I love it.
Okay, I'm done. You're turn. Ramble away...
Hey I'm Back, not that it really matters much.
Anyway,ok i hav eto ramble about something and i hope it won't affend you or anyone who reads this.
The rumor of a live action movie has been around. (don't get annoyed i haven't said anything yet) I think that great,great that the story is being (excuse the word) resurected.(not that is was ever gone in the eyes of the fans)But does it have to be a live action movie. I just think that kind of ruins the story we (as the fans) have come to love.unless you were going to have the same cast for the parts as you did the voices. Sound is a big memory trigger and for all the people who watched it before want it to be like they knew it. I personally hate it when a story continues however it does and the voices or character change. I don't know maybe it is just me. I just think that there would be nothing wrong with an animated one, I mean the show was animated to begin with. I also really feel strongly on the voice thing. Voices should stay the same.I think that a live action might reck the story. Like (and forgive me for using this example some people can't stand it)the Harry Potter thing, brilliant books that the world fell in love with ,but the movie is going tobe live and i think that recks it. We no longer can imagine what the character are like because we will be told. I don't know, am i making any sense? Please tell me what you think, what are your views on this, what do you hope for the movie, what do you hope doesn't happen, what do you want. And please tell me if what i'm saying makes sense, please rip it apart and criteac it.
Thank you so much for listening.
I'd love to do an animated movie that CONTINUES the story. But that's not being presented as an option.
So instead, I believe, they are planning a Live-Action movie that ADAPTS the story (at least to some degree). Sometimes this works. (Superman the Motion Picture). Sometimes it doesn't. (The Shadow.) So in theory, I have no objections, and in fact am rooting for the picture, for both its creative and commercial success -- if for no other reason than it increases the odds of the animated tv series coming back.
As to the actors, well, I would hope that they cast Keith as Goliath, Marina as Demona, Salli as Elisa, Jeff as Brooklyn, etc. Assuming all those characters are still in the movie script. Of course, I have no control over that, but I can dream...
I understand that Frank Welker did the voicework for Bronx. But was it also him who did the assorted animal-type noises that were mixed with the speaking gargoyles' speech (i.e., Goliath growling, Brooklyn's groan of realization/surrender on the rooftop in ''Temptation'' (''Demona: Do you really think they would accept us with open arms?'' Brooklyn: *groans* ''No.''); Hudson's war cry as he descends upon the Steel Clan robot in ''Awakening, Part Five'')?
I think it turned out to be a poorly organized question, but I should let you be the judge of that.
It's organized fine. But no. Frank did many animal noises for us that were blended with various monsters, like Nessie and Thunderbird, etc. And of course he did Bronx, Boudicca, Gilly and (sometimes) Cagney. But the human voices that were blended with sound effects for each individual gargoyles were the voices of the individual actors who portrayed those gargoyles.
I remember, for example, that when Brigitte Bako first joined the cast, her roars were pretty feeble. But by the time the second season ended she could scare the pants off you. Keith, Jeff, Thom and Bill were all naturals at it.
Do you know where I could find a single site that could tell me what other sorts of films, shows, etc. that the voice actors of the Gargoyles series starred or voiced in?
Nope. Anyone else?
1. I noticed that Gregg Rainwater voiced "Jake Nez" in Max Steel, and "Jake MacDonald" in 3x3 eyes. Was there some kind of joke or connection with having the same first name for both characters, or just a really strange fluke?
2. I know that Max doesn't always wear the chest plate. (like how he didn't have it for most of "Scions") I was curious, does that thing do anything interesting? Hold water, contain weapons, possibily a swiss army knife?
3. I know that in "Sacrifices" Rachel and mant of the other agents had pistols or some kind of fire arm. Since this is a kids show, I was kind of surprised by that. So, out of curiosity, do most agents have a weapon at all times? I can see why max wouldn't need one, but others like Rachel, Jake, possibly Berto if he ever left N-tek?
1. Just a fluke. I named Jake Nez. But the Jake MacDonald character was already named when I came onto 3x3. Gregg was just great in GARGOYLES, voicing Coyote Trickster and Natsilane. He's been a favorite of mine ever since, so I try to use him on every project.
2. Don't know. I was not involved in the animation or design. Ask Mattel, I guess.
3. 'Berto maybe not. He doesn't usually go out in the field, and when he does, I'm not sure it occurs to him to grab a piece. Max, no. Rachel, yes, in my mind. But I'm not sure the WB agrees.
By the way, 3x3 Eyes is now available on video. And coming soon to DVD.
I read somewhere that Elisa Maza was the cartoon drawing of actress Salli Richardson. Is this true? Were any of the other character's based on the actors/actresses voicing them? Thank you once again for your time.
Merry Xmas, and All the Best in 2001!
It's kinda true.
We had a very similar drawing of the character "Elisa Chavez". Not different enough for anyone to notice in passing. But when Salli was cast, we changed her ethnic heritage from Hispanic to African/Native American to match Salli's ethnic heritage. Elisa Chavez became Elisa Maza. And we gave Salli's photos to our designers so that they could split the difference between our original Elisa and Salli. And in fact, back when Salli had long hair, there was a striking resemblance between her and her character.
People said the same thing about Xanatos and Jonathan Frakes. But that was coincidence. Xanatos was designed before Frakes was cast. Later, Jonathan would occasionally trim his beard to match Xanatos, for example when he was playing Riker's clone. Or when he did some publicity for us.
The only other time when designs were based on performers was in the episode "The Mirror". Although constrained by the basic look of our gargs, we tried to get a flavor of Keith David, Edward Asner, Jeff Bennett, Bill Fagerbakke and especially Thom Adcox Hernandez into the human versions of Goliath, Hudson, Brooklyn and especially Lex.
Time to ramble...
Xanatos again does equally well as hero and villain, as he opens the episode saving his and Fox's lives.
He's got some nice lines here too:
Another reprise of Launchpad McQuack's old: "Any landing you can walk away from..."
"At least she's not chipped."
"Demona and I need to have a little talk."
"No sense hailing a cab." Or stealing one. I'm not sure if it's clear, but we wanted to give the impression that traffic was hopelessly stalled by all the stone people behind the wheels of their cars. And that Xanatos would have to hoof it.
And then it's back to the clock tower where my favorite line is Brooklyn's as he's looking at what he thinks is a statue of Elisa:
"The nose is all wrong." Gotta love a critic.
Goliath doesn't objectively know that the statue is really Elisa, but his instincts are clearly firing up early warning signs.
Meanwhile, my daughter Erin is busy advising all of us: "They should make sure... cuz that's really her!" and "I bet they're going to Elisa's house." Which they weren't.
Originally, we had planned to (as usual) leave Hudson behind with Bronx. But we switched it to Broadway, so that Hudson could come with and reestablish his fine relationship with Robbins. I should point out that we BEGAN work on City of Stone before Lighthouse. We knew we needed a blind man for City. That blind man was then developed for Lighthouse, making for a great scene in City. Sometimes, things just seemed to work.
Brooklyn still hates Demona intensely. Forcing Goliath to compensate.
My son Ben was all nervous that "They're gonna turn to stone again." He was vague on who the "THEY" were.
Demona's reign of terror on the statues presented us with interesting S&P problems -- and some bizarre but VERY FUN solutions. Adrienne understood the necessity of having Demona blow up and/or smash a few of the stone humans. Even though the implication was death for those people. She was okay with it on the condition that we didn't spell it out, because, at worst, the death's were so fanciful, they certainly weren't imitatible. But she did want us to limit the number of deaths. So at one point she nixed the idea of blowing up yet another statue, but allowed us to blow up the shopping bags (and hand and arm) of one. This seemed less harsh to her. Of course, bloodthirsty lot that we were, we loved it. Because if you think about it, it was certainly more horrific come sunrise.
I finally saw the two statues that people thought were Brendan & Margot. Certainly, they looks like them a bit. But trust me. Two different people got destroyed. That woman was a brunette. And the guy was wearing a toupee.
At this point, Benny became as concerned as Goliath that Demona would shoot Elisa.
Then we segued into our flashback and Benny was still trying to figure out why Demona scratched Gillecomgain in the previous episode. Erin, meanwhile, wanted to know why Gille was wearing a mask.
Me, I'm still fascinated with Bodhe for some reason. I love how he talks big at first, until Mac makes it clear that he's not going to obey. Then he goes into pleading mode.
I also love the scene with Gruoch on Lunfanan Hill. Very heartbreaking and romantic. Did kinda make me wonder what would have happened if Macbeth had just said "Screw it!" and spirited Gruoch away with him. What would there lives have been like then?
The Weird Sisters are fun at the wedding. I like the line: "Certainly not our hero." It's one of those self-aware-tv-moments-that-ride-the-edge of which I'm so fond.
I also really like Duncan's scene with Macbeth after the wedding. He's such a manipulative bastard.
And now we begin to parallel similar scenes in City One. The Weird Sisters again go to Demona to get her to ally with Mac.
Demona: "Ally with a human. Never Again." Well, obviously Demona should never say never again, but in this context she's thinking about her alliance with the Captain and the tragedy that led to.
There's a nice little beat with Gruoch's rose. Gruoch seems cold to her new husband Gillecomgain. We wonder if we should feel some sympathy for a man who has married a woman who loves another. We wonder if he has feelings for her as he gently takes up the rose she was sniffing. But then he crushes it underfoot, so basically we feel okay about hating him again.
Erin asked: "Why'd he step on it?"
And I didn't want to answer, because the writers are trying to manipulate you.
Ben answererd for me: "Because he's a bad hunter." A much cleaner explanation, don't you agree?
Notice here that Mac is not yet the fighter that he someday will be.
Notice also if you watch all four parts of City of Stone together that Emma Samms who voiced Gruoch -- but had never done voice work before -- gets progressively better with every episode. She's somewhat stiff in City One. As with many live-action actors, she's unused to using her voice alone to project subtleties. She's a bit better here. But by City Four, she's rockin' the joint with some really powerful work. I can't remember when I've ever seen any performer push the learning curve that quickly. Most either get it or don't. A few of those who don't, slowly improve with practice. Emma just revved UP.
Did anyone else feel that we went to the well with that long drop from the Terrace at Castle Moray once or twice too often? Again, we were trying for parallelism, but I hope it didn't get boring.
Erin: "I like Macbeth when he was a little boy. I don't like him when he's a grown up." (I think she meant she liked the younger red-headed heroic Macbeth in general in these City flashbacks. Didn't like him as a present day villain in Enter Macbeth, etc. This actually pleases me a great deal. It's the ability to create sympathy in villains that separates Gargoyles from many of its rivals.)
I love that moment when Demona rips the mask off. Gille indicates his scars, "'Tis you're handiwork, remember?" And Demona honestly and simply answers "No." And he goes BERSERK! Bad enough she scratched him and altered the entire course of his life. But that the event was so insignificant to her that she doesn't even remember it...! Now THAT pisses him off.
Gillecomgain should have known: "Live by the drop, die by the drop." As he follows Findlaech's course to doom.
I also like the little moment o' connection between Mac, Gruoch and Demona. Demona actually says Thank You to a human.
And another wedding. Two in one episode. Bodhe introduces: "Lord and Lady Macbeth!" I wanted to get the designation 'Lady Macbeth' in here somewhere. Just to provide more obvious contrast between our version of Gruoch and Shakespeare's.
I also get a kick out of the chilling little scene back in the present with Brooklyn & Goliath. Brooklyn bringing up the "Massacre at Castle Wyvern". Fearing that Elisa could wind up a victim too. This sets Goliath off to the point where he is CLEARLY thinking that he needs to KILL Demona now. "Once and for all." And then those creepy little stone Weird Sisters. Yikes.
Then Xanatos has finally made it across town and is back in hero mode. He saves Owen. And shuts off the broadcast, clearly thinking that that will break the spell. At least, I hope that was clear. Honestly, I'm not sure if it was. I wanted the audience to think that would work. Then be surprised when it doesn't. Did that work for anyone?
The "Hunter" shows up. Demona at first recognizes only the mask. How many times must I destroy you?! she says. A hint to events in the past of both City and Hunter's Moon. But than when she sees him feeling her pain, she knows exactly who's behind that mask. I'm curious how many people picked up on that. This was the first time we showed them feeling each other's pain. The first time we had them in real proximity to each other.
Their fight is kinda cool. There's a neat moment when Macbeth is flying Demona like a kite. And he's very gutsy throughout, leaping after her. Of course, he's semi-suicidal, so it's no surprise he's fearless. But we don't know that yet.
And finally, our cliffhanger. X is so sanguine. "You want vengeance or a solution?" And we end on a surprising image: Goliath and Xanatos shaking hands. Now, it's like no big deal. They ended up teaming upfrequently. But I thought that then, it would be startling.
WHAT DID YOU ALL THINK?
I don't know if you have ever heard of the VH1 show, "The List", but on Monday (12/4), Salli Richardson was a guest on the show!
I was so thrilled when I found out that it was her. I had seen her before in a Deep Space Nine episode, but since then I was waiting to see her again . Infact, I didn't even recognize her because she cut her hair really short. I thought she looked great and it was really good to hear Elisa's voice again.
I don't watch it, but Salli is, I believe, a regular (short hair and all) in FAMILY LAW, a CBS drama that airs on Monday nights, I think.
Greg, have you done any voices on Gargoyles?
I was the second commando, who said: "Nice Mask" in Awakening, Part Two.
About Milord Arthur:
Who provided the voice for King Arthur? I loved his performance, and I'd like to know his name.
Also, my favorite thing about him is the way you designed him. It's the best visual embodiment of the Pendragon that I've yet seen. What talented person or persons designed him?
Ryan St. John did the voice.
I'm fairly certain, that Greg Guler designed the character, but I can't be 100% on that. It was a long time ago.
A weird question, but I just finished the movie version of Camelot, so: can King Arthur of the Gargoyles universe sing well?
I don't know. I guess it depends if John St. Ryan can sing well.
Yeah, I just keep sendin' 'em in. I hope I'm not bothering you to insanity.
1. If L'Etranger is not a robot, and he's not a person in a suit, then is he a cyborg, like Smiley?
2. And wouldn't hair and eye color "naturally" changing be counted as DNA reconstruction?
3. In your world, did Mairot die in "Shattered?"
4. Which voice actor does who in the show, of the characters that show (somewhat) regularly. I already know ones like Max, Rachel, Berto, Smith, Laura, Pete, Smiley, Mairot, and Dread. But what about others, like Sophia, Vitriol, Dragonelle, Woody and Annabelle Barkowski, and L'etranger?
Thank you soooooo much!
1. In my development, yes. I can't speak for the new producers.
2. No. I consider it part of the color/light warping abilities of the Max-probes.
--Sophia and Dragonelle were voiced by Mia Korf. (She's great. She also did a voice for me [Natsuko] in 3x3 Eyes.)
--Woody was the amazing Jeff Glenn Bennett (voice of Brooklyn, Owen, the Magus, etc.)
--Vitriol was an actor named August Paro, that I had never used before. But I thought he had a great voice.
--Annabelle was done by the same performer who voiced Claw and Nought in Gargoyles.
--L'Étranger was voiced by John DeLancie. Better known as "Q"
in Star Trek.
Do you have any vague ideas in mind as to voice actors for the major characters we never saw on the show or got a leica reel, particularly Mab and Katana?
Mab & Katana, no. I haven't thought about it.
But for some others, yes.
There are obvious ones like Samson, Delilah, LXM, etc.
And a few others.
Vows. I always prefer this style of time travel theory, when you affect events in the past you are fulfilling history, not changing it. Too few time travel stories do this, most instead taking the track of messing up the time line and then putting it back, or else just changing an unpreferred event into something else. New timelines, alternate timelines, erased timelines, it all just gets too messy sometimes. Also fun are the "cause it by trying to prevent it" stories, done with prophecy in Greek myth and time travel today. MIA even got into the act, though in a most unique fashion.
"More's the pity." I love that line too. And Morgan Shepard's wonderfully expressive voice just adds to the whole experience. I'll be the one to ask this: In the plan for Dark Ages, would we have seen the events of Vows from the other side of things?
Eventually. Dark Ages begins in 971. Vows was set in 975.
Morgan Shepard was great, but Keith David said "More's the pity."
Written by Shari Goodhartz
Michael Reaves, Story Editor
Benny: "But Daddy, when it's dark they get alive. But when it's light, the get frozen like a statue."
Last night, the kids, my sister, my wife and I all watched "Vows" together. Time to ramble.
Back to the Golden Cup Bakery Building. As I noted in the previously posted memo about this episode, I wanted a little opening battle, but I didn't want to waste time in a tight, packed script explaining how this came about. It does beg the question though. Assume that X contacted Elisa. She told Goliath. He went ALONE? His friends allowed this? Hmmm.
Xanatos knows from the letter to himself what to do, but I sometimes wonder just how detailed the letter was. I like to think it was fairly sketchy. That exactly HOW Xanatos got Goliath to come was his own machinations. Otherwise, though he takes the credit for the letter, the truth is that the plan itself wasn't his idea. He got the idea from the letter. And he wrote the letter based on what he had done, which he had gotten from the letter. None of this is really his to own, though he does claim ownership. So I like to think that at least some of the details were X's. For example, X knows what G will respond to, i.e. Demona.
Hudson, on hearing about the wedding, suddenly makes the connection to the long ago incident when he met the Goliath from the future. So he's strangely ambivalent. Elisa on the other hand, seems flat out jealous to me. After the events of "The Mirror" and "Eye of the Beholder", she's much more aware and focused on her feelings for Goliath. SHE DOES NOT WANT TO ACT ON THOSE FEELINGS. At this time, she thinks it's impossible. But that doesn't change how she feels. And now, she's jealous. Goliath's feelings for Elisa are just as intense, but so are his feelings for the "Angel" of his youth. He HAS to give it one last chance. (And this will be the last chance. The final nail in the coffin of his and Demona's "marriage".) Brooklyn, meanwhile, is just knee-jerk against anything involving Demona.
PETROS XANATOS is introduced. Again, I wonder why he was invited. Was he also included in the letter? Or did Xanatos invite him to prove something to his father. Is X that needy? Or did X invite him to the wedding, because of course he'd invite his father to his wedding, and his already planned "honeymoon" to 975 shouldn't alter his decorum. Perhaps he's mildly surprised his father winds up coming along? Anyway, Petros was a fun character. A tough hard physical man. With morals. A great contrast to the son. I knew even then that we'd give Petros and David an arc to their relationship, (one that eventually would culminate in Gathering2).
"Oh, reason not the need." A little King Lear is always nice. And I love Petros' attitude on the line, "And the armor?" I mean what would you say to your son if you saw him dressed like that? I'd like to know how many people had sort of forgotten that X was even wearing armor (we're so used to it) until Petros made an issue of it?
I love all the irony in the dialogue between Petros and David. David knows what he's planning. He must be smiling when Petros says "I'd like to get my hands on the man who gave you that coin." And when David says, "Someday, I'll prove to you that I'm a self-made man," he must really be patting himself on the back.
I love the voice work of Keith and Marina when doing their teen-age counterparts. So subtle, yet it's always clear which Goliath and Demona is talking at any given moment.
Gotta love that storage room in the clock tower. The Eye of Odin, the Grimorum, half the Phoenix Gate, and, oh, yes, a comatose Coldstone. By the way, despite what the memo said, I think generally, Goliath carried that Gate in the pouch attached to his belt. Not behind some brick. We hadn't actually come up with that pouch yet, not until the World Tour. But using RetCon, I think that's where he kept it until they moved to the clock tower and Demona tried to kill him, Hudson and Elisa in "Long Way to Morning".
One interesting thing: this is the first episode where we actually CONFIRM that the ILLUMINATI does exist. Matt's mentioned it. Even chased it in SILVER FALCON, but we've never been shown any proof of it's existence until now. Was anyone surprised by that?
Judge Roebling was interesting in theory, though not so much in the episode. I'd like to do more with him some day. I also thought that it was interesting that despite seeing the tape of the Gargoyles in advance. And not reacting outwardly when he saw Goliath, he still gasps when Demona enters. What is it about her? When she entered, Benny turned to me and said: "She's queen of the Gargoyles." Oh. So that's it.
(And everytime Xanatos and Fox are on screen together, Benny likes to point out that he and Erin dressed up as them at the last Gathering. "That's me. That's you, Erin.")
To some extent, X must have filled D in on his plan. I love her "acting" when she enters and gives her bitter "excuse" for being there to Goliath. She's playing hard to get!
I love Petros: "Unnacceptable." He's still trying to teach David the error of his ways.
The Gate itself is very idiosyncratic. It's size, the size of its portal, and the duration the portal stays open seems to vary not just from episode to episode but from scene to scene. Sometimes it annoys me, like when Princess Elena removes the Gate from her sleeve, and suddenly it's bigger than her hand. But now I'm just amused by it. Again, if you think of it as a steam valve for the timestream, it explains a lot.
I love the little sound that Paca put in when the two pieces of the Gate first come together. What a tip-off that was, yet it's subtle. Did anyone think about the significance of the talisman that Demona had shared with Goliath before she started speaking in Latin and flames appeared out of nowhere?
It was hard to make people understand the time loop a bit. But it seemed really hard to make them see why I kept wanting to repeat scenes to show the connective tissue. We had to squeeze in Owen's "Honeymoon" line the second time. No one left space for it.
For the first of many times in the series, someone (X) says the line: "It's not where, it's when". (Erin: "I know when.")
I love X & Fox's relationship. "Having fun." "A marvelous time." Great stuff.
Hudson gets a close look at 1995 Goliath and immediately sees the age and wear and tear on the guy. (I love the shot of Goliath gagging him.) That says a lot for Hudson, because the visual difference between the two Gs was extremely subtle in the animation -- when it existed at all.
Knowing what we had planned (more or less) for Avalon, we were already laying groundwork here for that. Setting up the combined power of the Gate, Grimorum and Eye. Setting up the Archmage's desire for that power. Further demonstrating his enmity for the people he'd wind up using. Of course, making Demona his apprentice was fun. Tells a lot about her own desire for power that even when she was a good girl, she was still willing to work for the Archmage in order to learn his secrets. Willing even to steal for him.
The Norman Ambassador and Prince Malcolm make a BIG deal about how odd the Xanatoses' clothes are. But were they THAT strange? Was Fox's wedding gown that odd? And even if they were strange, did they look as shabby as Prince Malcolm seemed to suggest?
Not every episode gives you a double wedding. Fox and David. Elena and Malcolm. Hey, did anyone notice that we married off our lead villain? That was very daring, and we all but threw it away in Act One. Was anyone expecting Fox and X to really get married? And once they were, did you think you'd see them have a kid by season's end? I think we broke new ground there.
I like the exchange between Goliath and Hudson. Goliath's trying to explain that he's not a creature of sorcery, but a time traveler. H: "And I suppose you came back in time on the wind." O.k., well sorcery was involved if you're gonna get technical. And Goliath has some amusing tense problems while trying to describe what happened in his recent past, Hudson's FAR future. Then Hudson looks him in the eye and decides to trust him on no further evidence. Cool.
I knew a girl named Bryant from Bar Harbor, Maine once. That's where we got X's home town.
Fox is so proud of her man. But I love Petros' "Mr. Big-Shot Time Traveler" line. Or rather I love the way Morgan Shepard read the line.
How hard did Demona try to do things differently from the way she remembered them being done? She knows Goliath is going to fly down to try and join her and her younger self. She tries to leave before he can get there. But the gate stays open long enough for him to go with. Did it ever occur to her to go somewhen else other than 994? I guess part of it could be chalked up to dim memory. It was over a thousand years ago. And Demona lived through that 1000 years. Even for a very significant event in her life, it must still be very hazy.
That exchange between Demona and Demona is a lot of fun. Demona is so brutal to Demona. (And, hey, she spells out the Gate's power to any audience member who hasn't yet caught on.) "Do not share it with-- Do not share it!" I love that line. Also:
"I am what you will become."
"I will never be like you."
"I don't want to hurt you."
"And I don't want to BE you."
pretty cool stuff.
I also like the moment when we have two gates rolling about on the floor and young Demona and older Goliath both bend over to pick them up. At first we had a lot of discussion as to who should pick up which gate. But the discussion became moot, since after the gate pieces were reunited, they almost always seemed like they had never been broken in the first place. Magic.
And the young Demona, older Goliath scene is also gorgeous.
"What am I to do?"
Love that. Love his whole "Do nothing/attend the petty jealousy" speech. I think it's very pretty. Very sad. At that moment, does Goliath hope he's changing the future? Or is he simply trying to spare this young Angel a couple extra decades of pain?
Showing Demona's natural bents again: Goliath isn't sure if he remembers the incantation, though he's heard it multiple times by this point. Young Demona, having only heard it ONCE, does remember and uses the Gate perfectly.
"Time Travel's funny that way." At least it is in the Gargoyle Universe with the strict, strict rules that I imposed. Of course, I've always thought that those strict rules made the stories more challenging for the writer and, yet, more fun and satisfying for the viewer.
I also really like Petros' "American Penny" speech. For once the "Xanatos Tag" of victory doesn't go to David.
Where did the expression "More's the pity." come from? I've heard it many times. I know what it means, though that's more from sound and context than from the words themselves. What am I quoting when I use it? Does anyone know? (This isn't a contest. I really don't know.)
Finally, my tape has the weird mistake ending that first aired, which shows Demona and Goliath in the clock tower. It's pretty, but it drives me nuts and I think it's really confusing. But I've talked about that many times before, and I'm sick of it, so this time, I'll let it go.
Do Kate Mulgrew and Laura San Giacomo know what Titiania whispered to Fox???
On average, how long did it take to do the voice recording of a single episode of Gargoyles? Or for any animated show, for that matter; I've always wondered
Assuming the whole cast was there than approximately three hours.
I'd just like to point out that I'm a man of my word. At the 2000 Gathering in Orlando, I vowed that the 2001 Gathering in L.A. would have a MINIMUM of 20 special guests. As of today, we officially have 21. And we're not done by a long shot.
Of course, the big news is MARINA SIRTIS, the voice of Demona, will be attending.
Here's the official announcement reprinted by permission of the G2001 staff:
The Fifth Annual Gathering of the Gargoyles
The Gathering 2001: City of Angels
June 22-25, 2001 -- Los Angeles, CA
The staff of The Gathering 2001 is pleased and excited to announce the addition of SIX NEW GUESTS. We're most excited because the list of new
additions starts with the voice of Demona herself, MARINA SIRTIS! Also well known for her role as Counselor Deanna Troi in the "Star Trek: The Next
Generation" television series and films, Ms. Sirtis joins the voice of Lexington, Thom Adcox-Hernandez, on the sure to be growing list of "Gargoyles"
voice actors and actresses who will be in attendance at The Gathering 2001.
But wait, that's not all! We also have five new names joining our guest roster from the "Gargoyles" staff and production crew: Lisa Salamone, Jamie
Thomason, Karen Peterson, Dave Schwartz, and Julie Morgavi. Many said it couldn't be done when we promised at least 20 guests - more than every
previous Gathering combined - but our complete list is now up to 21! And even more are sure to be added in the future!
For the complete guest list and most recent info, visit:
With such a terrific guest list and so many exciting events planned, it's a sure bet that The Gathering 2001 is going to be THE place to be for "Gargoyles"
fans next June. Our goal is to have 500 people or more in attendance at what will be the BIGGEST and BEST Gathering yet, and only YOU can make it
happen. If you have already registered and purchased your membership, we thank you! But if you haven't, please don't wait too much longer! The
early-bird membership rate of $30.00 for adults ($15.00 for children ages 10 to 14) will only last until December 31, 2000! Don't lose out on what could
be as much as a 50% discount! The rate goes up to $40.00 for adults ($20.00 for children) as of January 1, 2001, and the adult membership rate at the
door will $60.00.
And while you're signing up for your membership, don't forget to reserve a place at the Gala Awards Banquet! Many of our special guests - including
Marina Sirtis, Thom Adcox-Hernandez, and Greg Weisman - are scheduled to be in attendance at this special event, and we hope to see YOU there, as
well. Tickets are only $60.00 per person and they are going fast! Seating is limited, so don't delay!
For more information about the convention, visit us on the web at:
Or contact us by e-mail at firstname.lastname@example.org
We hope to see YOU in Los Angeles next June!
1. C.C.H Pounder supplied the voice for Desdemona/Coldfire. What do the intials "C.C.H." stand for?
2. Were there other actors who auditioned for Goliath's voice? If there were, who?
1. Don't know.
2. There were at least a hundred. I don't even remember all of them, and I'm not sure it's very sporting to tell you. Some of them did go on to do other voices in the series. Talented men who just weren't right for our Goliath.
you once about a master cast lise. would it be possible for you to post this list at ask greg. thank you for your time
Maybe, some day. When I get to that document in the file.
speaking of trek, just how many star trek voices are in gargoyles? oh wait, leme check the archives... okay i didnt see anything. heres what i personally know:
(sorry about any spelling errors, im so bad with names)
Johnathan Frakes - Xanatos/Will Riker
Mariana Sirtis - Demona/Deana Troi
Brent Spiner - Puck/Data
Nichelle Nichols - Dianne Maza/Uhura
Colm Meanie(aah? spelling?) - Rory's dad/O'Brian
Levar Burton - Anansi/Jeordi
Avery Brooks - Nokkar/Sisko
Kate Mulgrew - Anistasia(Titania)/Janeway
i think im missing some people i know..
anyway, ive heard rumors that the voice of Odin also appeared in Star Trek: Undiscovered Country. im just wondering if oyu happen to know any names i missed?
Unfortunately, I don't have my master cast list here.
Also a bunch of actors had the occasional guest role on one of the Trek series or movies -- does that count?
For example, Salli Richardson (Elisa) was in an episode of Deep Space 9. And David Warner (the Archmage) appeared in one of the movies as a Klingon and in Next Generation as a Cardassian.
*sighs* I'm sorry..I really read that Sora thing all wrong:(
*pouts* this has just not been my day..
1) What does Lexington's company do/make?
2) Will you tell us why Lex started this business?
Sorry again. I will make sure to read things lots and lots of times before posting in the future.
1. Not saying.
Don't worry about it.
1. With all the Star Trek actors doing voice on Gargoyles, was John 'Q' DeLancie ever considered for a role? I personally consider Q a trickster.
1. John, who is great, did a role for us on Max Steel, as L'Étranger. It's possible that he was briefly considered for a roll on Gargs, but nothing that sticks out in my mind.
Did Ed Asner need voice coaching to do Hudson's Scottish accent, or was he just that good? I couldn't believe it was him until I read it myself on the credits.
He was just that good. (I think he even surprised himself.)
I recently realized that there is a certain similarity between the Sidero/Xavier team-up in the original comedy version of "Gargoyles" and the Hakon/Wolf team-up in "Vendettas". In both cases, a couple of villains team up against the gargoyles, one an original enemy of theirs from the Middle Ages, surviving on only as a ghost, the other a modern-day descendant of that medieval enemy who is scorned by his medieval ancestor for being too "poor-quality". Was the Sidero/Xavier team-up the distant inspiration for the Hakon/Wolf team-up?
Likely it very much was. Of course, the main motivator was the very talented Clancy Brown. But nothing gets wasted, consciously or otherwise.
Is there a list somewhere of the actors who have appeared in the series, the episode number, title, character names, etc? (just trying to fill in the blanks at www.geocities.com/sk8terbix/bader.html)
I have a master cast list, though it does't list episode numbers and titles. As I'm posting old documents, I'll get to it eventually.
But something like that may already exist. Have you tried asking in a comment room?
<<Still, it's weird to me that you've only heard dubbed versions. You don't know how great our voice cast was. Was yours good?>>
I've heard small bits and pieces of the original from MP3s and the like - I have some small idea of what the original voices were like.
I think the greek cast was mostly quite good. The voices of Goliath and Elisa were great - I shuddered when I first heard 'I've been denied everything - even my revenge' though I *really* shuddered when I heard the original later on. The trio was equally good - I think the style of the voices was quite similar to the original.
Angela sounds different from Brigitte Bako - based on a voice-clip from 'Turf' I think the greek voice-actor sounds more...adult, while Bako sounds younger. But I like her voice.
Among the main cast I think the only weak link was the guy playing Hudson. I felt he rather messed up lines like the 'Do you even know how to laugh maniacally?'. I don't know, I just felt he delivered them wrong.
As for recurring characters, my favourite voice actor was the guy playing Puck. A very clear, youthful voice, a voice you knew would laugh at everything. It's unlike the somewhat nasal one of Brent Spiner; but still great. That voice-actor also doubled for Vinnie. Probably one of the reasons I don't dislike 'Vendettas' as much as a couple other people do.
Macbeth started out great. I later saw a clip from the english-voiced 'City of Stone' scene of his separation with Gruoch, and I felt I liked the greek voices better (though that may be because I'm unaccustomed to the Scottish accent). But from 'Sanctuary' onwards they changed the voice-actor for each Macbeth ep for some reason. The voice-actor in Sanctuary was *way* too young-sounding, like a 20-year old or something. The guy in Pendragon was better, closer to the first Macbeth but his voice was a *bit* too rough, villain-sounding for my tastes. And the guy in The Journey was *horrible*. I cringed when I heard him, the voice was *extremely* old, like a 110-year old or something...
I think that's about all I can think at the moment... Some things were certainly lost: For example, the Weird Sisters all sounded the same to me, not 'kind', 'harsh', and 'mystical'.
Hudson was SO Ed Asner in my head, even before Ed was cast, it's impossible for me to imagine anyone else playing him in any language. (I love Ed dearly, and I'm not ashamed to say it.)
John Rhys-Davies was doing his own Sean Connery thang as Macbeth. I love it. It's very Scots. Just what I wanted. And his voice is so rich.
And it's hard to top Kath Soucie. Kath could do Mary, Princess Katharine and all three Weird Sisters in one episode and never confuse you as to who was talking, and this despite the fact that the Sisters intentionally had the EXACT same voice. It was all in the acting. And it never sounded forced. Jeff Bennett was like that too. They were really the iron horses of our cast.
Ok! On my question, for what charakter you would chose what actor, you just awnsered me with some names of the speakers. Ok, thats all right. But I mean, what HOLLYWOOD actors you wanna take like ... umh ... Michelle Pfeifer for Coldfire. Hope that time it is a bit harder.
I'd choose C.C.H. Pounder for Coldfire. You may have seen her on ER among a hundred other things.
I mean define HOLLYWOOD ACTOR. If you're limiting your casting choices (of even minor characters) to HUGE BUDGET MEGA-STARS you are NOT going to wind up with a very well-cast movie.
Just my opinion.
I have been a gargoyle fan since the first episode and I was looking through this site and I found out that you are trying to bring back the show and I have two questions about this.
1)If you did bring back the show would the same charaters (voices) be the same?
2)It all matters how many people come to the gathering next year right?So I was wondering what about the people (kids) who what to come but don't have the money nor will there parents let them come,could you do a internet site or something for the people who can't come? I was wondering this becaues I live in Arizona and I know that my mom would not let me come, and I was thinking about all the other parents who wouldn't let there kids come because of money wise or it's just to far away.
2. Well, there is an internet site:
So check there on a regular basis.
But, if this isn't too obnoxious, try working on your mom to get her to make L.A. in June a family vacation. There's a lot to see. Universal Studios and Universal Citywalk are both in the same location as G2001's hotel. Plus Disneyland's not too far. Magic Mountain. Hollywood. Rodeo Drive. Etc. etc. etc. Anyway, it's worth a shot. You've got nine months to convince her, right? (Please, feel free to ignore me.)
I would like to clarify what you wrote. Getting a large turnout at G2001 is the best ammunition I can get to getting the show back in some way, shape or form. It's not a guarantee. What I can guarantee, because I've been in on some of the planning discussions with the con staff is that this con is going to kick ass. It's really going to be great. With many guests from the cast and crew who made the show.
addition to quest in my last post: If Not Keith, how hard would it be to get Jeff Bennet or Thom to read one line?
Neither would be impossible, but again, I don't like to speak FOR them.
Okay, a G2K1 question for ya: If someone in the fandom (I'm already making plans) Were to make a commerical for G2K1 using video and sound clips from the first two seasons; would it be legal to have it air on a television station? Or do you know?
Also, how much would it cost to get Keith David to record like 2 lines for it? Or more accurately, how realistic would it be to even talk him into doing it?
G2k1 here I come! And bringing half of San Francisco with me if I can help it! ^_^
I'm not a lawyer. I don't know. But I think it could be a problem if you didn't have Disney cooperation. I'm not sure getting Disney cooperation would be impossible, however. Why would they object?
Keith's a good guy. But I don't want to speak for him or his representation.
I'd suggest coordinating with the con staff.
was wondering how blantant the gargoyles references/injokes are in the new 3x3 dub. and please dont tell me you commited the same sin as the old dub with the "princess perl" remark for pai :( i just hope the flavour of 3x3 eyes is kept without turning it into gargoyles with a 3 eyed girl. sigh. you can tell i'm dreading this new dub....
please quash my hesitations. tell me they are a tiny and subtle part of the dub!
I hope you don't dread it. The in-jokes are minor. Not that a garg fan wouldn't notice them immediately, but give me a little credit for not betraying one project to satisfy another. Please. I'm a professional. And I'd never get hired again, if I did that kind of crap.
I only ever listened to a small part of the "old dub" so I don't know what "princess perl" remark you're talking about. But we never say that in the new dub. It doesn't ring a bell. At any rate, we did NOT use any of the "old dub" as a reference of any kind.
As for the "new dub", which I'd prefer to call the first "complete dub", I'm actually very proud of it. I think the voice work is pretty terrific. Particularly Christian as Yakumo and Brigitte as Pai/Sanjiyan/Pabo/Parvati/Howasho. Susan Chesler, who plays Ling-Ling was a great find. I'd never worked with her before, but she was terrific. I did use a bunch of former garg voice actors, but I hardly think having Thom Adcox, Keith David, Gregg Rainwater, Edward Asner, Bill Fagerbakke, Elisa Gabrielli, etc. should qualify as a strike against it. They're all very good.
My advice (and at this point, I've made all the money off it that I'm going to, so it's less obviously selfish than it may seem) is get the thing and decide for yourself. If you don't like it, you know where to come to let me know.
But try to approach it with an open mind.
Now, here comes a hard question! If you could choose the cast for Gargoyles-The Movie, which actors you would take for which person??? I hope, that keeps you thinking a little time. CU, John
Let's see, that is a toughy...
For Goliath... Keith David.
For Elisa... Salli Richardson.
For Brooklyn... Jeff Bennett.
For Lexington... Thom Adcox.
For Broadway... Bill Fagerbakke.
For Hudson... Edward Asner.
For Demona... Marina Sirtis.
For Owen... Jeff Bennett.
For Angela... Brigitte Bako.
For Coldstone... Michael Dorn.
For Matt... Tom Wilson.
Gee, that wasn't as hard as I thought...
Just a comment. This is propably just a coincidence: Jim Cummings made the voice of Goofy for Disney and Dingo for Gargoyles. The French version of Goofy was renamed Dingo...
Actually Bill Farmer is the current voice of Goofy for Disney. Jim's the voice of Pete. (And Pooh. And Tigger. And Dingo. And Gillecomgain's father. And so on, and so on, and so on...)
Apparently, correct me if I'm wrong, Hakon and Wolf are voiced by the same guy. Hakon was the earlier character. Was the same actor chosen for Wolf with the knowledge that they were distantly related, or did that idea come later? As in the time of 'Vendettas'?
The idea came long before Vendettas. But definitely was inspired by the fact that Clancy played both parts. I think it came shortly after "Leader of the Pack" was voice recorded.
My name is Jacob Rubinstein. I am the webmaster for The First Unoffical Site Of Sarah Douglas. She did a voice character in the episode of MIA from gargoyle. I was hoping that I could get a picture of her character so I could post it on my site. I have not seen that episode either. the toon disney channel plays it.. but it does't list what episode it is.
It's called M.I.A. Sarah was terrific as Una.
Lighthouse in the Sea of Time:
As with all eps I saw this one with Greek dubbing - but in this ep there was something both unique and interesting/funny... I got reminded of it when in the memo you described the problem with the language of the scroll...
The thing is that though the entire ep was (as normal) dubbed in Modern Greek, when Macbeth starts reading the scroll he switches into *Ancient* Greek. At that time I had thought the original had Macbeth reading in Middle or atleast Elizabethan English, or some other kind of archaic-sounding language, which the translators simply rendered as ancient Greek. Only later did I realise that it was solely the translator's doing, with no corresponding change of language in the original...
It was a very nice touch, I think, and praiseworthy - it atones (atleast in part) for a couple horrendous mistakes in the dubbing of other eps... :-) But ofcourse that doesn't mean there wasn't any problem with it. Ancient Greek is far closer to Modern Greek, than Celtic is to English; nonetheless it's far enough that the first time I got only a very general sense out of the words, that Merlin was describing his first impression of Arthur... :-)
The phrasing of the scroll is subtle, but it does have an older sound to it. Certainly not middle english, but it does sound more archaic, so your translators weren't getting their ideas from no where. Still, it's weird to me that you've only heard dubbed versions. You don't know how great our voice cast was. Was yours good?
Firstly I have to say that Gargoyles is the greatest cartoon of all time if you ask me. No cartoon has caught my interest in the same way that Gargoyles has, and Carl Johnsons music is simply breathtaking in some episodes.
Anyway onto my question which isn`t a Gargoyles question.
Did Keith work on Gargoyles before or after the spawn cartoon?
Never checked the credits on spawn to see when it was made
which was why I was wondering.
Before. Considerably before.
Hello mr. Weisman
Just how much does it cost to have all those many talented voice actors for an episode? Do you know which voice actor cost the most?
Everyone got paid the same amount on Gargoyles.
I believe at the time they were all making Union Scale, plus 10% (which covers their agents' fees theoretically). They also all got ten week buyouts. That means we got to run each episode 10 times before Disney had to start paying them royalties.
I'm not good with remembering numbers, but I think everyone got $1,500 for every episode they appeared in (covering those first 10 runs).
First a question, then a brief ramble...
Question: To your knowledge, were there ever any Rocky Horror Show jokes at Tim Currey's expense while he was recording Dr. Servarius? You know, him doing the whole mad scientist bit and all.
Ramble: I don't post here often, but I read what's here all the time. I hope the appearance of some treatise sized responces to your episode rambles illustrates to you how successful Gargoyles really was. Despite lackluster ratings, the people you reached, you reached deeply. Speaking as a writer myself, I think that's about the best we can hope to do.
Joel Hodgeson (creator of Mystery Science Theater 3000) was once asked if he ever worried that people wouldn't get some of the more obscure jokes/references he put in the show. He answered that it didn't worry him because the RIGHT people would get it. I think that sums it up nicely.
Answer: I don't remember.
Thanks for the kind words. I agree whole-heartedly.
But FYI, we didn't have lackluster ratings our first two years. They were solid, strong ratings. They just didn't beat Power Ranger's ratings.
You mentioned your choice, if it were up to you, [hopefully it will be,] to direct a Gargoyles Live Action movie, namely Jonathan Frakes. It had never occurred to me and for the life of me I don't know why. Generations is not among my favorite Trek movies, but I thought it was script problems, (the need to shift the franchise to the NG storyline,) and not craft that was at the root of the problem- It was well made, as was the next movie (which is among my favs) that I believe he also directed. He would be perfect: If the company wont give you complete control he is someone you can trust not to betray the story. He has brought up the show in completely unrelated interviews calling for its return. He specifically mentioned how fun it was to work with his Star Trek friends on the show so they would be more likely to make time for it in their schedules. And as you stated, he gives a damn about the material.
That led me to two thoughts. Should we as fans try to draw Mr. Frakes into Gargoyles fandom? I assume we could never afford his con fee, and it would be unreasonable to ask him to forgo it, but it would be nice to show him fan appreciation. Also, should we organize in approaching Disney pushing for Frakes to direct? They might think of us as a more directed and serious group (read- more people willing to spend money) if we have clear and sound objectives. Not to mention it might subconsciously connect to Trek fandom, and therefore seem more profitable. Any thoughts or suggestions?
On a completely unrelated point that will be out of date by the time you read this- Keith David is doing Shakesleare in the [Central] Park through July 16: Midwinter's Tale.
Thanks again for answering our questions- that is what keeps my interest up more than anything else.
I'm all for organization.
And it would never hurt to let Jonathan know how much you like his work, both on Gargoyles and as a director.
I'm not sure how to approach Disney right now. On the one hand, they want a lot of people to come to their movie, but they don't want to be told how (or with whom) to make it. Letting them know, in a rational way of course, that you care, couldn't hurt.
Hey, Greg! You have probably met Brigitte Bako, the voice of Angela, right? Did you choose her to do Angela's voice? (She does a great job!!!) How is she? Is she nice? Well, I have been trying to find information on her on the Internet, and I can't really find anything. I want to know things like her birthday, biography, and that kind of stuff. I liked Angela so much that I looked up Brigitte's movies and I've seen about 5 of them already. She's good! Is there an address that I can maybe write to to get in contact with her? I'd really appreciate it, Greg. I've run out of any other ideas on what to do. Thanks so much! I really appreciate it!! :)
I do know Brigitte. She's a wonderful person. We worked together recently on 3x3 Eyes (which we will be previewing at the Orlando Gathering this Sunday). Brigitte played the complex lead female role of Pai (aka Sanjiyan aka Pabo aka Parvati aka Howasho). She was terrific, as usual. 3x3 should be available on home video in September.
I should know her birthday, but unfortunately I can't remember it. (I vaguely recall that she shares a birthday with someone else I know, but I can't think who.)
Otherwise, I know a few random things.
She's from Canada.
"Bako" means "The Executioner".
She's currently renting her L.A. home to Famke "Jean Grey" Jannsen.
She's off making a couple movies right now. I do not have an address for her. And I'm afraid it wouldn't be prudent for me to post one even if I had it.
You could try sending a fan letter to New Generation Pictures in Beverly Hills. They're the producers (with Pioneer) of 3X3 EYES. They might be able to forward it to her. But I can't guarantee it.
I have some questions on how the voice recording was done.
I've looked through the archives, and it appears that you get all the actors together at one time but I'm not getting an entirely clear picture. You have mentioned doing some editing on the voices for rhythms and the like. Is this possible to do when the recording is done in a group session? I know the partial answer, each voice is on it's own track, but wouldn't the natural bounce (if you would) of all the actors playing off each other make for a natural sounding dialogue?
Were the recording sessions filmed as well, so that some of the facial expressions of the actors could be incorporated into the animation? I can just picture Marina Sirtis sneering at Keith David.
What is the sequence that things are done? I think the script and story board comes first, but are the voices recorded before or after the animation, or it is a kind of hand in hand process?
The reason I ask, is because I remember listening to an interview with a voice actor (back in the mid '70's) and he said that all his lines were sent to the studio on a tape that he did at his home.
Anything's possible but that last scenario sounds awful strange to me.
Here's the basic order:
1. Write the scripts.
2. Design new characters. This begins even before the script is finished sometimes.
3. Record the voices.
4. Storyboards are drawn. (This sometimes also begins before all the voices are recorded, depending on deadline pressure. But ideally it waits for the board artist to get the voice tape.)
5. Direct the board. (For timing, etc.)
6. Send materials overseas for animation.
8. Post-Production. Retakes, editing, sound, etc.
As for step 3 itself, we tried as often as possible to get all the actors together in one room. This was almost never completely possible. There'd always be someone who wasn't available or was out of town or something. (For example, Keith David spent most of the second season performing in SEVEN GUITARS on Broadway. We would pick him up by "phone patch" from a studio in New York. One time, I seem to recall, we had to get Jim "Fang" Belushi by phone patch from Australia, where he was shooting a movie.
So we had to edit in anyone who wasn't in the session. Plus sometimes the best takes weren't consecutive. Say, Thom "Lex" Adcox did a great reading of a question. And Jeff "Brooklyn" Bennett stuttered when answering. Jeff probably did two or three great takes of his line. But we'd still want to use Lex's great take. So we'd edit it too.
And sometimes we'd tighten things up for pace. Since, as you noted, we had to allow each line to be on a separate track, that meant we couldn't overlap dialogue in the recording booth. But in real life, people often interrupt each other or talk over each other, etc. So sometimes we'd edit to create that overlapping effect.
Still the reason we TRIED to get everyone together is because we'd generally get a better, higher energy performance from most of the actors by allowing them to play off each other.
While this isn't the ep that cemented Brooklyn in my head as "Favorite Character," I have to admit he is GREAT in it.
I still love Lexington's remark about building a horse from spare parts.
Demona's tour of the city--Yeah, the DEAD BODY surprised me too. Very powerful, very good, as were Demona's other two "examples" of humanity. Bennett and Sirtis did WONDERFUL jobs with their voice acting here.
As for the bikers not noticing Brooklyn, yeah everybody notices that. I just try to ignore it and that seems to work. If nothing else, most of the bikers in that scene WERE wearing sunglasses at night (as someone else already pointed out). Come to think of it, some of them weren't even wearing helmets....;-)
Elisa's finger--great, now that you've mentioned it, *I'LL* probably look for it and not be able to see anything else in the scene.
I was surprised to hear that Brooklyn's description of the Cloisters was taken by some folks as "proof" that gargoyles were not native to this planet. Anyone who saw the first two episodes should have understood what Brooklyn meant. Come to think of it, why WOULD people want the gargoyles to be from another planet?
One of my favorite lines in this episode--Brooklyn: "You hold the book, Demona. But *I* hold the *spell*!" I just LOVE that.
The resolution of the spell may have been a bit of a cheat, but it WAS a creative and original solution to the problem. So, you guys still get some points in that area.
Lex and Brooklyn talking about the motorcycle at the end and Lex's reaction are always enjoyable.
Pointless note: Hudson doesn't speak a single line in this episode. Odd, when I think about it. Still, you do at least SEE him a few times.
The Hudson thing was budgetary. Often if we had a character who needed to appear for logic's sake but didn't have too much to contribute to the story, we'd avoid just giving him one or two lines to prove he's there. That way we could save money on the actor's salary for that episode. That money saved could be used later on for some of our big cast expensive episodes.
Trust however that I never scrimped. If I thought Hudson needed to speak in that episode, even if it was only ONE line, I would not have hesitated to pay for Ed Asner to be in the session.
Im a 16 year old female from BC Canada and since you've worked in Disney ,I thought you might know a little about Voice acting . You see I plan to become a Journalist or voice actress/Actress ,and I wanted to know if you needed to become well known as an actor or actress to work for Disney. I dont know if I ever want to work for them, I mean I might just go to UBC,become a journalist and live alone in a tiny apartment with 15 cats .I dont know. But still I would like a bit of information on what I one day might need to know . Always, Truly
Sixteen years old and already a doctor. I'm impressed.
Look, acting is a very tough profession. You need to REALLY WANT AND NEED to do it. Lots of rejection. You don't need to be famous to be a Disney Voice Actor, though of course it doesn't hurt. But we cast most shows based on talent, voice quality and appropriateness for the given role. (But having an agent and being in S.A.G. doesn't hurt.)
I was just wondering why you don't use the original english voice for yakumo since he did a pretty good job at the part. And is the anime going to be digitally remastered when it comes out.
Joe, I'm not sure I agree with you, but in any case that wasn't an option. We didn't have access to any of the "original English voices" for 3x3 EYES. We HAD to recast everyone from scratch. The new Yakumo is a very talented actor named Christian Campbell. (Neve's brother by the way.) Christian is the voice of Max Steel, and he's a regular on a new prime time series that will premiere this fall: "The Street".