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Rewatched "Upgrade" today.
Continuing the "animals/beasts/hunting" terms used for gargoyles - I noticed Dingo's remark to Wolf "I hope you're not planning to eat your catch" and Hyena's I wonder if gargoyles taste like chicken." This is the first time anyone was actually suggesting eating the gargoyles - they'd hunted them for other reasons - control, sport, revenge (I found myself suddenly comparing Gillecomgain's vengeful pursuit of Demona with Captain Ahab's pursuit of Moby-Dick - in both cases, to get back at the quarry for a lasting physical injury, whether facial scars or a missing leg), but this is the first time anyone seemed to consider eating the gargoyles. And, naturally, it'd be the Pack who'd be the ones to consider that.
Hyena also addresses Lexington as "flying rat".
When Broadway foils the most crimes, saying "You just gotta know where to look", I thought again of his detective interests in "The Silver Falcon" - and which resurfaces again in "Protection", the very next episode.
Not just the Pack, but Hyena specifically. Not sure the rest of the Pack has her appetite.
Hello again Mr. Weisman, here are 2 separate questions for Gargoyles I have for you if you don't mind!
1. I'm guessing Xanatos had the PACK's Show Produced before the Gargoyles Woke up, but do you know How Long Exactly Xanatos had been putting the PACK Together as Both TV Stars AND as his Mercenaries? a Year? 2 Years? Or More or Less?
2. Is there a Particular reason why there was Never a Real Christmas Episode of Gargoyles, Or was it simply because you just didn't come up with one?
1. At least a year or two. It was a separate project.
2. It wasn't a priority. We had some ideas, but they never quite raised up to being the top ideas in our arsenal at that time.
I also rewatched "The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Temptation" today. Things I noted this time in "The Thrill of the Hunt".
1. Lexington, angered about the Pack's treachery, cries that they're like animals. I thought that appropriate, given the Pack's "animal names".
2. The Pack continue the "referring to the gargoyles as beasts" practice from "Awakening" and even speak of hunting them, such as Wolf's cry "Let the hunt begin!" - the talk about hunting them also made me think of the Hunters (though they wouldn't be introduced until Season Two, of course).
3. When Brooklyn and Broadway arrive at the end to tell Goliath and Lexington how they'd seen a report on the news about Fox and Wolf's arrest, they come gliding in from outside the castle - so apparently they weren't watching television with Hudson when they found out, but somewhere else. (I won't ask where, but this detail struck me for the first time.)
4. Dingo's cry of "Stone me!" upon seeing the photographs of Goliath felt like a particularly appropriate response to a gargoyle.
2. Common themes running through the series, I think.
3. Or they were watching t.v. earlier.
Hello Again, Here's question I do have for the 'Gargoyles' comics
In "Masque", when Billy and Susan Greene dress up as Jackal and Hyena, around that time Are They Aware that The PACK are Crimanals? Since they're Kids I would'nt be surprised if they did'nt but Surely their Parents watch the News and heard of the PACK committing real crimes and would try to Discourage their kids from watching the show, Or do they just Love the PACK's Show and Don't care what their parents or even the News Says?
Pretty much the latter.
I was swimming through the S8 archives and noticed a Gargoyles question that's been asked before but never really had a chance to be answered (at least online).
From 2001: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=2177
From 2013: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=19262
Naturally, I'm curious myself now (and curious that I've never really wondered about it before tonight). So how many seasons and/or episodes was The Pack on the air?
Just to be thorough, I double checked the ol' This Day in Gargoyles' Universe History rambles from 2007-2008 and the posts relative to the on-air Pack program only refer to the day the television at the castle began airing episodes of The Pack on all stations all day and night long (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=644), the day of the live-performance engagement (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=645), and the aftermath of Wolf & Fox's arrest, leading to the show's cancellation (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=647) . . . all in the span of four days from November 3rd to November 6th, 1994.
Finally, I've been reading Cary Bates's and your work on The Fall and Rise of Captain Atom and I just finished World of Warcraft: Traveler! I thorougly enjoyed both and I (like so many others) cannot wait for Young Justice season three :D
Thanks for the kind words!
The Pack had at least one season and had begun (at least) its second when the $#!^ hit the fan. I don't have Gargoyles materials here at my WB office, and I just can't remember if they had more than one full season. But I don't think so.
Hello, Mr. Weisman.
I've been rewatching some episodes of "Gargoyles" and reading some of your ramblings about the show, and I had a couple of interesting thoughts about the Pack:
The two most human members of the Pack, Fox and Dingo, are also the first to break off from the group. Fox basically ditched them as soon as Coyote entered the picture; she'll manipulate or work with her former co-stars if the mood strikes, sure, but otherwise, she's pretty much done with them. Dingo took a bit longer, but he left as well, and he also seems to be pretty much done with the Pack, apart from working for Fox in "Walkabout".
On a similar note, Fox and Dingo are also the only ones out of the Pack to have had their real names (or, in Fox's case, her birth name) revealed. They go by Fox and Dingo, but they were born Janine Renard and Harry Monmouth.
Contrast the others: long after Fox and Dingo have (mostly) gone straight, Wolf, Jackal, and Hyena continue a life of crime. On top of that, we have no other names by which to identify them (although, for some reason, I keep thinking that Wolf's first name is something like "Thomas"; probably just getting a little mixed-up with one of Clancy Brown's other roles on the show). They're the ones who discard their humanity for an extra edge. Unlike Fox and Dingo, who are people with vague beastly motifs, Wolf, Hyena, and Jackal are beasts in human skin (metaphorically speaking). We know them by no other names because they need no others. What their parents called them is irrelevant. Not only that, but they stayed together as a team up until Egypt (and will eventually reunite under Coyote as the Ultra-Pack). The beasts stayed a Pack, and the people set off on their own.
One last remark on the Pack's chosen names: Fox's and Dingo's mirror their heritages ("Renard" is French for "fox", and Dingo's Australian), while the other members have names that reflect who they are (Wolf was always a huge, growling brute, Hyena's a cackling killer, Jackal's amoral). Fox and Dingo CHOSE their names; Wolf, Hyena, and Jackal already WERE their names.
So, what do you think? Is this little analysis accurate at all (I could be way off, or reading too much into it; you, sir, would, of course know better than I would)?
In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to read this, and have a good day, Mr. Weisman.
I like it!!
What were Xanatos's original intentions with the Pack? He said he created them to be far more than a TV show and he sicced them on Goliath to see how good they were and to also test Goliath.
But how long were they on the air before this? He couldn't have always intended to use them as a test for Goliath, so what were his original intentions there when he created them to be far more than a TV show?
To be his operatives.
One aspect that I always liked about "Gargoyles" was that most of the individual characters had someone they considered their own personal nemesis.
Brooklyn had Demona (but I doubt she thought enough about him to feel the same, her focus was always on Goliath). Lexington had the Pack (though, again, I doubt they gave him as much thought as again, Goliath). Broadway had Dracon (again, I tend to think Dracon gave Goliath more thought, and especially Elisa).
Actually, while writing this post, it just occurred to me that these people the trio despised probably didn't give them individually all that much thought... kind of says something about how the futility of holding such contempt for someone, only for that other person to probably not spend all that much time thinking about you. See, I love "Gargoyles," I'm always seeing things in new ways.
But I guess what I was originally going to ask, before my little revelation there was this. Did you have any rivalries like that planned with the Redemption Squad?
For Hunter, Demona or John Castaway being her personal nemesis seems like a given. Though I wouldn't be surprised if we get a new character there. Dingo seems to have Falstaff for that role, especially if he ever discovers how his mother died.
Yama, Fang and especially Matrix are harder to pin down for this. I suppose for Yama it could be Taro, but I'm not sure... he seems to blame himself for what he did rather than Taro. Fang doesn't seem to hold any real ill will towards Sevarius. And Matrix doesn't even have emotions and can't take things personally.
Of course, the ultimate example of what you describe in your third paragraph is with Gillecomgain. He's obsessed for years over the gargoyle that scarred him. And when Demona sees his face, she has absolutely no memory of the incident.
As for the Bad Guys characters, things would evolve in the fullness of time.
I recently got to watch the first two episodes of Season Two of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" on YouTube (I hadn't seen them before now, since I don't have cable) and enjoyed them.
I noticed at the end the MasterPlanner's line to Kraven about "hunting in packs". While it works in its own right as a hint of things to come (presumably super-villain team-ups), I thought "pack" was appropriate. Kraven was hunting Spidey for the same reason that the Pack initially hunted the gargoyles - the "Most Dangerous Game" motive - and, like Wolf, had himself upgraded into a mutate (though feline rather than canine). He even got photographs of Spidey at the start of the episode from the MasterPlanner, just as the Pack got the photographs of Goliath at the start of "The Thrill of the Hunt". I don't know if the "hunting in packs" line was intended as a "Gargoyles" hommage or in-joke or not, but I liked it and thought it appropriate.
I can't remember for sure. But it probably was.
Which would you rather watch?
The entire series run of "The Pack" or "Hello Megan?"
Oh, God. That's tough. Really tough.
LOL. I'm stumped.
A couple of in-universe questions about "The Pack" television show.
1) How much of a role did Xanatos play in the development of the show? Like creating the monikers for the team and coming up with the storyline of the Pack constantly battling the evil ninjas.
2) How was "The Pack" television show received among parents and critics in the Gargoyles Universe? I mean, was it considered better than Barney?
1. Probably a lot of conceptual work, then delegating the day to day.
2. Probably, it was considered horrible for children. It was a huge success.
What exactly did the Pack do for a living before being hired by Xanatos and becoming celebrities?
Dingo was a thief and a robber for a long time. But Dingo, Hyena, Jackal and Wolf were all mercenaries immediately before getting hired by Fox. Fox's story I'll keep to myself for the time being.
Have you by chance seen the new version of "American Gladiators"? One of the new Gladiators is called 'Wolf' and bares a striking resemblence to well, Gargoyles' Wolf.
I'm sure it's just coinsidental then some intentional reference, since of course a stocky hair muscle man is gonna pick the name "Wolf", but it's still very funny to see what's basically the same character 'real life'
You probably couldn't pay me enough to watch "American Gladiators", but then again, had it been a real show, you probably couldn't have paid me enough to watch "The Pack" either.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Lexington begins to repair Jackal's helicopter. Elisa Maza confronts Fox in prison. Fox reveals that David Xanatos created the Pack, and is using Jackal and Hyena to cement Derek Maza's loyalty. Elisa records Fox's conversation. Derek flies Xanatos to his upstate retreat, 'Xanadu'. Again, Jackal and Hyena attack. And again, the Manhattan Clan intervenes, using the repaired helicopter to defeat and capture the twins.
In the morning, Rory Dugan returns home and argues with his father, Mr. Dugan. That evening at sunset, Elisa Maza, Goliath and Angela wake up to find themselves trapped inside Cairn na Chullain by the Banshee, who is convinced they have been sent by Oberon to bring her back to Avalon for the Gathering. Rory, looking for Molly, encounters Bronx instead. When the Banshee realizes that Rory and "the Great Beast" are together, she appears to Rory and lures him away from Bronx.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Emir's son is killed in a pointless car accident.
Fox orders Hyena and Jackal to assassinate David Xanatos. And that morning, Derek Maza decides to quit the NYPD and accept Xanatos' job offer.
At midnight, the Emir summons and imprisons Anubis, the Egyptian god of death. Elisa Maza and the gargoyles attempt to intervene but are captured. The Emir tries to force Anubis to bring his late son back to life. When Anubis refuses, the Emir attempts to become an avatar of Anubis' power. But Jackal intercepts the spell and becomes the Avatar of Anubis instead. Mad with power, Jackal destroys Coyote 3.0 and brings death to an entire Egyptian town, before the Emir recasts his spell and becomes the new Avatar. The Emir now understands that death cannot play favorites, and he destroys the temple to prevent anyone else from ever gaining access to Anubis' power. Elisa and the gargoyles spend the day outside the Sphinx. Then they return to Avalon. What's left of the Pack scatters.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The trio have grown steadily more at odds over Goliath's inability to choose one of them as a Second. They have begun competing to see who can stop the most street crime. Elisa, Goliath, Hudson and Bronx are captured by a newly upgraded Pack. Coyote has a new robot body. Hyena & Jackal are now cyborgs. Wolf is a mutate. And Dingo has new battle armor. Meanwhile, Halcyon Renard, who had been searching for some means to fight the disease that is killing him, discovers an incantation that will transfer his soul into the Golem of Prague.
What nationalities are Wolf, Hyena and Jackal?
Wolf is American of Norwegian descent.
Hyena and Jackal are Canadian.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Pack is approached by the Coyote robot's severed head. On Xanatos' behalf, the head offers the Pack the opportunity to be upgraded by using genetic engineering, cybernetics, armor and robotics. They agree to differing degrees. While back at the Eyrie Building, Fox & Xanatos begin a game that will eventually pit the gargoyles and Pack against each other. Meanwhile, Peter & Diane Maza confront Elisa about Derek Maza's disappearance. Elisa talks them out of filing a police report on her brother.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
While Elisa again tries to convince Goliath to abandon the castle, they are attacked by a Steel Clan Robot. Goliath destroys it, but Owen uses the opportunity to acquire some of Goliath's genetic material.
The Pack attempts to rob a bank. The gargoyles try to stop them. Goliath is badly injured - allowing the Pack to escape. Hudson informs Goliath that he needs to choose one of the Trio to be his Second-in-Command.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The city honors Peter Choy and Rosaria Sanchez. Terrorists take hostages (including Brendan & Margot) at a bank. The gargoyles intervene and have their first encounter with the Weird Sisters. Wolf sees television coverage of the bank robbery and decides that he and the Pack are going to turn to a life of crime. Meanwhile, Demona and Xanatos initiate their plan to secure immortality by stealing a minute of life from everyone who watches their hijacked broadcast. However, Demona was fooling Xanatos, and actually succeeds in using the broadcast to turn everyone who watches into stone at night. Owen, Fox, Elisa and most of the humans in Manhattan see the broadcast. Xanatos does not watch.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Owen tells Xanatos the results of his Gargoyles vs. The Pack experiment. With Fox and Wolf under arrest, The Pack television series is quickly cancelled. Dingo flees to Europe.
Fox arrives at the Eyrie with Xanatos' father, Petros. That night, Goliath decides to attend the wedding. He brings his half of the Phoenix Gate along. Fox and David are married. Demona tricks Goliath into giving her his half of the Gate. She then uses it to travel back in time to the year 975. Goliath, David, Fox and Petros Xanatos go too. Seconds later, they return, having fulfilled their roles in the time-stream. That same night, Thailog, who had intentionally been kept hidden from Goliath, initiates his plan to steal $20 million from Xanatos.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Lexington convinces Goliath to meet the Pack. But the Pack attempts to hunt Goliath and Lex down. The gargoyles manage to turn the tables. Fox and Wolf are arrested.
Xanatos sends word through Elisa that he wants to talk to Goliath. Assuming the worst, Goliath attacks Xanatos atop the Goldencup Bakery Building. After a brief struggle, Xanatos stops the fight and asks Goliath to be best man at his wedding to Fox the next night. Xanatos also promises that Demona will be at the wedding.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Now that Xanatos has negotiated such a short sentence, Elisa tries to convince Goliath that the gargoyles must leave the castle. Goliath refuses. Brooklyn, Broadway and Lexington attend a live performance by the Pack. Lexington makes contact with his heroes after the show.
Peter Choy and Rosaria Sanchez rescue and resuscitate a drowning five-year-old from the lake in Central Park.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Philibert Aspairt is lost beneath the catacombs of Paris.
The television at the castle begins showing THE PACK on all channels at all times.
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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
After midnight, Goliath, Hudson & Broadway free Brooklyn, Lexington and Bronx from an oil tanker in the bay. Coyote, revealed to be a robot, is destroyed by Bronx and Lex, though the robot's head and the Pack escape.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Coyote and Dingo bust the rest of the Pack out of prison. Fox refuses to join them, and even protects a guard from Hyena. Coyote becomes the new leader of the Pack. At sundown, the Gargoyles join the hunt to track them down, and the Pack captures Lex, Brooklyn and Bronx.
If Wolf and Fox were sentenced to jail for 16 months, why did Xanatos even bother pulling the stunt in Leader of the Pack instead of just letting them serve their time in jail?
Love makes you do whacky things.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Fox and Wolf are denied parole, and are informed that they will most likely have to serve their entire sixteen-month sentence. Their next parole hearing is set for October 30th, 1995. Xanatos begins to plan Fox's release and the Pack's escape.
Prior to seeking employment for the Pack tv show, had Jackal, Hyena, Dingo, or Wolf met/encountered Fox?
I'm not answering this at this time.
"Which members of the Pack?"
Okay, to elaborate slightly less than before on my Pack/Mutates question (as as far as I can tell, mentioning my rationale sounded too much like an idea, hence its deletion)...
Did The Pack - asking about every member here; I guess Fox would be a safe bet, all things considered, but other than her - know about the Mutates while they were together? Do any of them now?
With the exception of Fox, and perhaps Coyote, I'd say no. Information is power. Why would Xanatos share power with Dingo, Jackal, Hyena or Wolf?
Hey! I was wondering about the Pack's names. I'm assuming that each of them picked their own animal name when they joined the pack. Did each of them have a reason for picking the animal they picked, or was it like they drew straws out of a hat to see who got the coolest names? (I know that's unlikely, but you know what I mean… I hope). If they chose their own, was there an intellectual reasoning behind the name or did they just pick their favorite animal?
Thanks for you time and answer.
It's hard to imagine them picking the names at random, isn't it? I mean, can you picture Dingo and Hyena exchanging names because of the whim of a hat?
Fox's name pre-dates her involvement with the Pack. And you might keep in mind that the others were recruited.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Broadway and Lex defeat Hyena and take custody of the Amulet, leaving Hyena for the cops. And in Guatemala, the gargoyles and Elisa battle Jackal. At sunrise, Jackal briefly believes he has the upper hand when Obsidiana turns to stone. But in reality, she had merely lost her pendant. Bronx recovers it, and he, Zafiro, Jade and Turquesa dispatch Jackal. As a result, Vogel decides to cancel Cyberbiotics' rain forest operation. After sundown, the travelers depart. But they bring Jade and Turquesa along to transplant samples of the rain forest flora in Avalon. They arrive on the mystic island at dawn and Goliath, Angela and Bronx sleep through the Avalonian day. Elisa introduces Jade and Turquesa to Princess Katharine and the Guardian, and all spend the day scouting Avalon for a good location for the rain forest transplants.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
At sunrise, Goliath, Angela and Bronx turn to stone. But the Mayan gargoyles wear magic pendants that allow them to remain flesh, thanks to a missing Mayan Sun Amulet. During the day, Elisa watches Zafiro scare farmers away from the forest. Meanwhile, Hyena heads for New York in order to break into a museum and destroy the Sun Amulet. She's spotted by Broadway and Lexington.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx leave Avalon and arrive in the rain forests of Guatemala. There they encounter Zafiro, Obsidiana, Jade and Turquesa, the last surviving gargoyles of the Mayan Clan. Together, they fight off an incursion against the rain forest by Jackal, Hyena and loggers working for Cyberbiotics, under the management of Preston Vogel.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Adam Weishaupt founds the Bavarian Illuminati.
Hakon's spirit reaches out across the globe and senses that his descendant Wolf shares his hatred of Goliath. He summons Wolf to Wyvern Hill in Scotland. Meanwhile, Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx depart from Avalon and arrive in Australia. There they encounter the Matrix phenomena created by a pregnant Fox and her mother Anastasia Renard.
Hey there, fairly recent fan of the series, first-time asker. One question (so far) that I've been curious about - is The Pack aware of The Mutates' existence?
Which members of the Pack?
Questions regarding "Walkabout"
1. Why did Dingo meant by helping Fox and Anastasia? Carry crates? Clearing the test sites?
2. How did the Matrix shrank after being so insanely large? Compression? Did it kill a handfull of nanobots?
3. What was Dingo's job before going to America?
1. Generally, I think he was in charge of security. EXTERNAL security. Although, clearly he was off duty when the episode begins.
2. Deactivated and dissolved most of them, yes.
An "Upgrade" question. During the gargoyles' fight with the Pack at the bank at the beginning of the episode, Wolf shouts, as the Pack is retreating, "This isn't over!" The last time that I watched this episode on tape, I realized that those were the exact same words that Hakon shouted in "Awakening Part One" after the gargoyles had turned back his first attack on the castle.
Did you know at the time that Wolf was descended from Hakon, and put that line of Wolf's in as a foreshadowing of "Vendettas"?
Is Nokkar the Sentinel your version of the Green Lantern in the Gargoyles Universe just as Cuchullain and Coyote were your ideas of Thor and Ultron?
Cuchullain wasn't inspired by Thor. In fact if anything, I was disappointed that the character kept overlapping into Thor-territory.
Ultron was AN inspiration for Coyote... in the sense that we kept bringing the robot back and numbering each new incarnation, but I think that's where the inspiration ended. They don't have much else in common.
Nokkar has no connection to Green Lantern in any significant way that I can see, even now that you bring it up.
In any case, this notion of "versions" (implying that all we were trying to do was to duplicate existing characters) is somewhat offensive. I'm not sure if that was your intent, and I don't want to over-react. But I thought you should know.
How similar are coyote 1.0 and the program Xanitos put on Coldstone to monitor his personalities as they both seemed to be based on Xanitos but were either an AI?Did they know of each other?
I'm sure they had similarities. Neither were full-fledged Artificial Intelligences. Did they know of each other? Uh... I don't know. Never thought about it. Does it matter?
What is a sense distortion laser beam that Coyote 1.0 and Coyote 4.0 had .
If we're talking about the same thing, it effects things like balance and vision and sound in the brain... makes everything go all Salvadore Dali on ya.
Dear Greg , I have a few questions I was wondering about 1 . What Happened to Coyote 1.0's coyote head and body ?
2. Had Xanatos had Coyote armor that he wore ?
3. How come Coyote's head mcame back in Greif . Goliath destroyed Coyote's head to pieces in Upgrade ?
.P.S. - I will be really sad if you don't answer my questions right away .
1. The body was basically destroyed and went down with the ship. The head was incorporated into Coyote 2.0 and was eventually smashed by Goliath, as I recall.
2. I don't think so.
3. It wasn't the actual head it was a vid-image of the head.
P.S. Sorry, I made you sad, but you must have seen the queue. I didn't even see your question until today.
Why didn't Xanatos destroy the head of Coyote 1.0
Why waste it?
Why was each member of the original Pack recruited?
Prowess and resume.
How exactly did Coyote get rebuilt by Xanatos if he got turned into rust by the Anubis Avatar?
Xanatos can manufacture new parts. He doesn't need the old materials to build the robot. He has the specs. And he's constantly upgrading those specs anyway. Plus the Coyote after the one Anubis/Jackal destroyed incorporates the Cauldron of Life, right?
What does the X in Coyote stand for? The variable? The roman numeral? I'm not trying to be annoying, but this has become an issue since the X in Weapon X has turned out to be the roman numeral ten instead of the variable.
Neither. It's a place holder.
What are some fact about Austrilla because my partner and I are in a class were we have to research Austrilla for a report in library Science thanks lots
Dingo's from there. Matrix too.
Does that help?
My ramble on "Upgrade".
I'll confess, for a start, that "Upgrade" isn't one of my favorite episodes, due mostly to the fact that it seemed much more like a half-hour "slugfest" than is generally the case with "Gargoyles" (although, given that we're dealing with the Pack here, I suppose it's inevitable - they're not the most subtle antagonists out there, after all). But it had some parts of it that I rather liked.
The transformations of Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf definitely freaked me out. In fact, the first time that I saw this episode, I tried to believe, for a while, that Jackal and Hyena were simply wearing fancy mechanical armor, but the evidence against that was too strong; I had to face the facts, in the end, and realized that they'd become cyborgs. And that definitely chilled me. (In Wolf's case, I didn't even have the option of finding an alternative explanation; it was too obvious that he'd been mutated.) Those three had permanently changed, on the physical level, from what they'd been in "The Thrill of the Hunt". They were no longer fully human. In fact, to me, the real significance of their alterations in "Upgrade" wasn't what you'd pointed out (they need to be upgraded so that it won't be too easy for the gargoyles to take them down - though I did see that there) but rather the way that the three of them were growing less human, their physical transformation being almost an outward sign of their increasing degeneracy.
By contrast, I liked Dingo's refusal to become physically upgraded, and horror at what his teammates had done to themselves. In fact, that was definitely when I began to like Dingo, as opposed to seeing him as just another member of the Pack (as he'd been to me up until then). (It certainly echoed my response to their transformations, which, I suspect, was how most of the audience was similarly responding). I wasn't surprised, therefore, when he was no longer with the Pack in "Grief" afterwards, or when he was shown seeking to "go straight" in "Walkabout". This was definitely the point where we see the "break with Eastcheap" (I chose that particular phrase inspired by your idea of Dingo's real name being Harry Monmouth, and the parallel is definitely there - though I might add that I don't see any of his former Pack-mates being a Falstaff-figure - more on the level of Falstaff's associates like Bardolph or Pistol, perhaps, but not scaling the heights of comic genius of Sir John himself - not that they were meant to.)
We also see the definite introduction (though it'd been hinted at in "Leader of the Pack") of Hyena's interest in Coyote, which has to count as the most bizarre relationship in "Gargoyles"; even Jackal gets nauseated by it, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redesigning Goliath's features in his stone sleep.
One side-note: re Hyena's wondering aloud whether gargoyles taste like chicken. I've sometimes wondered why the phrase is "tastes like chicken" as opposed to "tastes like beef" or "tastes like pork", or "tastes like turkey". Just one of life's little mysteries, I suppose.
On the gargoyles' side, we get to see Brooklyn becoming the new second in command. I will admit that I honestly hadn't wondered about that issue until the episode came out. (I've occasionally wondered if Goliath didn't pick one before this episode had anything to do with it having last been filled by Demona, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.) I did think that Brooklyn fitted the role well, and liked the bit at the end where he admits that he's not in that big a hurry to take Goliath's place. And where Goliath offers the role to Hudson, but Hudson declines it.
I still get a kick out of Fox's little public service announcement: "Don't 'Pack' it in. Take the train." Pretty clever of her.
I don't find Officer Morgan's remark that troublesome; in fact, I found it quite amusing.
Incidentally, Xanatos's remark at the end about having found a true equal in Fox reminds me of your analysis of Theseus, where you saw him as having found his equal in the Amazon Queen Hippolyta/Antiope. It makes me wonder whether you'd included a little of your perception of Theseus and Hippolyta in Xanatos and Fox (whether consciously or otherwise). Come to think of it, there's even a slight connection between the two couples, via "A Midsummer Night's Dream".
Taking your points in reverse order:
One of the great ironies of the series is that the one character who truly builds a healthy relationship (prior to Broadway & Angela in "The Journey") is Xanatos. The BAD GUY.
Heavily influenced by "The Warrior's Husband" and "The Bull from the Sea", I do see Theseus and Antiope as being true equals and the correct match.
But I'm not sure that's influencing X & Fox so much as that ANY great man would WANT a great woman, not a trophy or showpiece or weak link. Xanatos would no more settle for a weak wife than he'd want Owen to throw a judo practice.
By the same token, Goliath loves and respects Elisa and Broadway loves and respects Angela. They are equals.
Maybe it's just the way I think the world should work.
"Tastes like chicken" has entered the vernacular, I think. I first heard it in reference to Rattlesnake meat, and at the time that may have been someone's sincere way to describe what the serpent tastes like.
But since then, I've heard the phrase applied to almost any exotic carnivorous matter. I've never heard beef, pork or turkey used the same way.
The degeneracy of Wolf, Hyena and Jackal was definitely part of our intent.
You know how in most comic books that super-villains end up in mental hospitals for the criminally insane instead of prison? Two examples are Arkham Asylum in the DC comics and Ravencroft in Marvel Comics. Out of all of the Gargoyles' enemies, who would most likely end up in an insane asylum? Fans have to admit that villains like Demona, Dr. Sevarious, Castaway, Thailog, Hyena, Jackal, Proteus and Coldsteel are all nuts! Plus, Wolf and Fang seem to have some issues.
I don't think that either Wolf, Fang, Sevarius, Thailog or Coldsteel are "criminally insane" by its legal definition. I think it's a stretch for Demona, Jackal, Castaway and Proteus as well. That is, all these characters know right from wrong.
Of the characters you named, Hyena and Proteus are the most psychopathic. But I think Proteus knows what he's doing. He just revels in his evil. Hyena, frankly, isn't that bright. She has no control at all, beyond some semi-affection for her brother, i.e. her anchor.
Clearly, many of these characters COULD wind up in someplace Arkhamesque. But that would depend on lawyers and judges and juries. Obviously, the one trial we know that Hyena faced landed her in a regular prison cell right beside Fox. So even for her, a legal argument could obviously be made that she was criminally sane.
Hi Greg. Long-winded question, so bear with me.
One of the recurring themes of Western story-telling is that those who "tamper in God's domain", to borrow a phrase, will be struck down for their hubris. After the enterance of Frankenstein into our collective consciousness, one of the "rules" for Western literature is that Frankenstein must always be destroyed by his monster, for his arrogance in playing god.
The reason I bring this up, is that Xanatos is a man who seems to like playing god. And he has left a trail of monsters in his wake.
I'll ignore Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf for the purposes of this question, since it could be argued that they were already monsters who merely allowed their exteriors to be altered to match their true natures. (Although, it could also be argued that those three were tempted by David and his offers of power and vengeance, but at the end of the day, I still think they all damned themselves willingly)
I'd go so far as to even ignore the mutates, because even though they become monsterous looking, they really don't fit the bill as "monsters". They're just ordinary people who, by virtue of making some bad character judgements, find themselves with fur and wings. (Although it probably doesn't help Xanatos' karma any)
But even ignoring those two examples, you still have...
1. Coldstone. Such an obvious Frankenstein archtype that you joked about it. (The "It's alive! ALLLLLLLIVE!" sequence remains one of my favorites from the whole show) Of course, you could lay Coldstone at least partially at Demona's feet as well, so we'll move on.
2. Thailog. Grown in a lab, created with a mixture of different people, (Goliath's body and temper, Xanatos' mind and ethics, Sevarius'... libedo? Whatever accounts for Delilah) he turns almost immediately on his "fathers" You could call Thailog Sevarius' creature rather then Xanatos' except that David is the force behind his creation, and that Anton, for all his mad scientist posturing, could be seen as no more then a lab assistant, an Igor to David's Dr. Frankenstein.
3. The Coyote robot series. Xanatos' most personal "creature", the one to whom he gave his face (well, half of it) and voice. Loyal (?) to David for now, but unless forming the Ultrapack is David's idea, he presumably goes indepentant eventually. That, and we know he sets his sights on galactic domination in 2198, presumably not with his creator's blessing. (Then again, I could be wrong)
4. The Matrix. Created so that David and Fox could reshape the entire planet at their whim. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. Admittedly, I don't think it's becoming sentient along the way was part of the plan, and it's inclusion here might be a bit of a stretch, but I thought it was an example of Xanatos' hubris, if nothing else.
So, I guess, after all that lead up, my question is this: Would the pattern hold true? Would one (or all) of Xanatos' "creatures" come back to bite him in the ass later? As Elisa said "I wouldn't want Xanatos' karma."
There is a second part to this question, but I'll submit it separately, in case it's viewed as an idea.
Well, for starters, I'd argue your premise. Victor Frankenstein's life was certainly decimated by the monster he created and abandoned -- but he survived the experience, sadder and hopefully wiser.
Moreover, it was the abandonment that was his true sin in Mary Shelley's original work. The creation was certainly hybris. But Shelley is pretty darn clear that she viewed the abandonment as worse. And I tend to agree. It's nature vs. nurture. The creature wasn't created evil. He was driven to it.
As to X's karma and whether it will all come back to bite him in the ass, I think the answer is clearly yes. But I really see it as a separate question. That is, it is a karma question more than simply a playing god question. That's one element. But only one. After all, one might argue that David and Fox were playing god by bringing Alexander into the world. But I wouldn't argue that. And I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
So let's go through the numbers.
I tend to agree that Wolf, Hyena and Jackal built their own cages. And for the record, seem quite happy to live in them.
The Mutates seem to be following the same path as the gargoyles themselves. That is to say, that Xanatos woke the gargoyles, and has often suffered for it since. He then turned these four humans into mutates, and has had to suffer a bit (though admittedly not much) for that. It will be interesting to see Talon's post-Hunter's Moon reaction to Goliath and Co. moving back into the Castle. But the larger truth is that Talon, Maggie and Claw are making lives for themselves.
1. Coldstone. Well, yeah, duh. This is our Frankenstein's monster. But as with most things, Xanatos is too smart to truly follow in Victor's footsteps. He helps create the creature -- and certainly uses it -- but he never simply abandons it. And he also tries to balance (or bury) the Karmic scales, by helping out with Coldstone's Multiple Personality Disorder and by building Coldsteel and Coldfire.
2. Thailog. Here's the big threat, frankly. A guy with something to prove and three fathers to prove it all to. I think Xanatos hasn't seen the last of Thailog. One could argue that Thailog is the only guy to ever beat Xanatos at his own game (in Double Jeopardy). So the hybris of creating him has already bitten X's ass. But I doubt Thailog is through.
3. Coyote... I just don't want to reveal too much on this right now. Sorry.
4. I really think you have to chalk Matrix up to Fox's hybris (and competitive spirit) rather than to David's. She was certainly having the Matrix engineered for her and her man, but that doesn't mean that Xanatos was behind it. That would assume that she cannot operate independently. And I sure as heck wouldn't assume that about her.
So the short answer: yes. But it's all very nuanced.
1. In the episode "Grief", was that Egyptian city and everyone in it just simply destroyed by the Jackal Avatar? As in: dead, and never ever coming back?
2. If #1 is correct, why couldn't the Emir Avatar return life to the city's population (not to mention those crocodiles and trees) since they were brought to death as untimely as the Emir's son returning to life would have been? Why weren't those lives considered "stolen energies" as well?
3. If #1 is correct, don't you agree that it was quite an unusual move for the show to have so many people die, and then not worry about the repercussions that it usually spends a whole lot of focus on with smaller incidents (something that made the show really great)? Did you have these concerns when working on the episode?
4. If #1 is correct, did S&P have any problems with it?
5. Was that a real city? Does/Did it have a name?
6. Dose Jackal, in his normal state, still harbor ambitions of bringing the gift of death to the world, or dose he keep his feelings under some control until he becomes super natural or dons the Eye of Odin?
7. How does Hyena feel about her bro's ambitions, would she be just as malicious if given the chance.
8. I was wondering if the Sphinx actually has that ritual chamber and mastaba as shown in the show? And was that door with the secret hieroglyphics just something Xanatos Enterprises cooked up that looks cool and also keeps out intruders, or was that meant to be ancient Egyptian tech?
9. This question is a bit differn't, but I'll ask none the less. How do you think Anubis felt about Iago, Desdemona and all Othello being brought back from the dead? Did it cause a big disruption to him, the spirit world and the space-time continuum?
1. That's my thinking.
2. What's dead and gone cannot be recovered. Or something like that. (He has a great quote in the episode on this very subject.)
3. A bit. But we also wanted to hint at the devastation -- and still get away with it on an S&P basis. Had we explored the repercussions, it would have drawn too much attention to what we had done and we would not have been allowed to do it. We felt it was more important to do it and not explore as opposed to not being able to do it at all. I still have hopes to explore those repercussions somewhere, someday.
4. Not with the way we did it. See above.
5. It's more of a town than a city, but no it didn't have a name.
6. Jackal is a sociopath, i.e. he knows how to control his impulses to function in society. But given the right opportunity, he's clearly capable of anything.
7. Hyena is a psychopath, who needs her brother to control her impulses. You can decide for yourself which one is more dangerous.
8. Meant to be ancient Egyptian tech. But I've never been to Egypt, so next time you go, you can check out for yourself whether or not it's really there.
9. Anubis strikes me as a guy who has intentionally divorced himself from passion. Ghosts exist. That's not what the Emir was asking for. The ColdTrio are ghosts in various shells.
Time to ramble...
I watched "Grief" the other night with my wife Beth, my nine-year-old daughter Erin and my six-year-old son Benny.
This episode was directed by Kazuo Terada & Takamitsu Kawamura, story edited by Michael Reaves based on his story. The teleplay is by Michael and Brynne Chandler Reaves.
Though Brynne co-wrote the teleplay, this strikes me as a VERY Michael episode. I remember how excited he was to be using the Tanna Leaves and the Avatar, plus all those other references to Thoth, Osiris, Isis and Set. I think it was something he had wanted to do on a Batman episode, but it hadn't survived someone's interference (my memory is hazy). But these MUMMY trappings suited our purposes perfectly. The Tanna leaves even gave Hyena hay fever.
The one word title, as usual, was one of mine. I liked it because it had that double meaning, covering the Emir's grief over his son, and all the grief (trouble) that this was causing. I have a vague memory that Michael wasn't thrilled by the title, but, hey, I gave him his Tanna Leaves...
One of us had Wolf speak to the second meaning in the episode when he says he's tired of the Gargoyles giving the Pack grief. Just to give things a bit of clarity.
The new Coyote 3.0 surfaces, complete with a slightly new design and that now iconic Xanatos robot head (smashed in his last appearance) displayed on a video screen. (Goliath mentions seeing it, although in the ONLY scene where Goliath could have seen it, it's not visible. Arggh...)
The new Coyote design obeys Frank Paur's general rule of robots, which states that if you're not trying to fool anyone into thinking that the robot is actually a human being, then the design should clearly be inhuman enough so that you'd never think it could be a guy wearing an armored suit.
Coyote's an odd bird in many ways. So like Xanatos, but without his drive and with more of a vengeful nature. Programmed in, I believe, so that he doesn't let anyone or anything stand in the way of X's missions. He's got some fun lines ("Shoot first and ask questions later."), in particular his exchanges about the chain of command...
Coyote: "I'm not programmed to kill without orders.
Wolf: "I'm giving the order!"
Coyote: "You don't qualify."
Coyote: "Is that an order?"
Emir: "YES! Get rid of them!"
Hyena continues to be attracted to a Coyote that doesn't seem interested but also never closes the door on the possibility of hooking up with the cyborg. ("Wanna make sparks fly?" "Later, perhaps.") It's sick and twisted and hard to get your head around, but it sure is fun, culminating with her wonderful complaint to her brother after Jackal destroys Coyote: "Every time I meet a guy I like..." (I also like those buzzsaws on her arms.)
It's important to note that Dingo is already missing from the group. Clearly, during and after "Upgrade" he was rethinking his association with the other members. This doesn't bode well for the Pack as a unit. They're already talking about going their separate ways after the Emir's work is through and are only still together because they owe Xanatos for busting them out of jail. After this, Wolf will head to Scotland, answering the call of his ancestor Hakon. Jackal & Hyena will take a job with Cyberbiotics and head for Guatemala. Dingo will go to work for Fox in his native Australia. Coyote 4.0 will be rebuilt and head for Arizona with Xanatos.
So "Grief" is the Pack's swan song -- that is until a new Coyote forms the Ultra-Pack with Wolf, Jackal & Hyena and a new member... someday...
To be perfectly honest, the Emir entered the Gargoyles Universe as a throwaway line of dialogue to indicate how powerful Xanatos was in "The Edge". If he could keep an Emir waiting, X must be a real bigshot. But Michael and I remembered the line, and used the Emir again as a semi-throwaway in "Double Jeopardy". But by that time, I think we might have already known we'd be seeing him on the World Tour. It's just an example of how the Tapestry seemed to be working for us. Creating opportunities that were so right, it almost seemed as if we were truly tapping into the Gargoyles Universe. How many of you were surprised to see the Emir actually appear?
The Emir was a very successful and poignant character (at least in my opinion). I give most of the credit for that to actor Tony Shaloub and Voice Director Jamie Thomason. Not to knock our wonderful designers and animators who brought that voice to life. But let's face it, he's just a guy in a robe. Now over the course of the ENTIRE production of Gargoyles, I would say that I only missed two voice sessions EVER. But one of them was this pick-up session with Tony. NOW, of course, everyone knows that Tony is an Emmy-winning brilliant actor of movies and television. I just love MONK. But back then, the only thing that Tony was really known for was the Italian immigrant cab driver on WINGS. Pretty cool in and of itself, of course. But having missed the session, I was unprepared for just how wonderful he was as the Emir. Everything from the grief-stricken sighs to the bursts of anger are just wonderful.
And while we're on the subject of voice, how about that other Tony, Tony Jay, as Anubis. He's delicious in three different personae -- as the neutral and imperious Anubis, as the crazed Jackal/Anubis and as the exhausted Emir/Anubis. That vocal effect we did of having both actors (Tony & Tony or Tony & Matt Frewer) read the Avatar lines and blending them together was a bit of accidental brilliance, in my opinion. I'm also glad that they do NOT quite synch up. It's better. The lines basically fit, but they ebb and flow around each other like the magical melding it's supposed to be. It was a bit of a bitch to mix, but I love it.
But I digress. The Emir's heartbroken love for his son is, I think, one of the cleanest and most purest emotions (unencumbered by too much fantasy) that we ever presented. Something very real. When the Emir first pulled out the photo of his son, Erin said "Who is that? Is that his son?" She immediately knew the photo had meaning. (Again, Tony's big sigh really helped.)
And at the end, we (along with Goliath) really hope that after gaining true understanding upon becoming Anubis' Avatar, he is now at rest with his son.
Jackal also truly comes into his own in this episode. I love how he flat out has a thing for jackals. How he admires the Anubis hieroglyph and Anubis himself, calling him "The original model". It's cool and creepy. We also truly get to see Jackal as a sociopath here. I think I've mentioned before that I view Hyena as a psychopath and Jackal as a sociopath, i.e. someone with enough sense to know he's got to do his evil within a schema that allows him to get away with it. But what happens when you free the sociopath from all restrictions. What happens when you give him (Matt & Tony, remember) the powers of Death itself? Well, you see what happens. People die. Lots of them, in theory.
Getting away with that was interesting. I think maybe in Adrienne Bello's mind, everything was set right. Or the fact that we see that Egyptian town age into a ruin didn't count because we weren't seeing ANY human beings die. But we had much more trouble getting those two skeletonized crocs past her than the implied death of an entire town. Misdirection. Or she was just being cool. Or both, i.e. she thought the misdirection was sufficient that she COULD be cool.
I love when Jackal/Anubis says: "Life and Death at my command. I LIKE it!" I also like that he's smart enough and sociopathic enough to co-opt the most dangerous guy in the room: The Emir. The Emir? you ask. Well, yes, it's the Emir who does in fact end up defeating him by rereading the scroll. And Jackal keeps the Emir in his place by holding out the hope to him that he will restore his son.
Seriously, how could we not go to Egypt on the World Tour. How could we skip visiting what Angela refers to as the World's Biggest Gargoyle. So we stuck a fictional temple inside it -- and then trashed it. I think dedicated archaeologists must hate our show, because we're constantly trashing these amazing hidden chambers of antiquity. Maybe I'm getting older or something, but I find myself wincing everytime Goliath and Wolf bust a sacarphogus during a fight, everytime a pillar cracks or the roof falls in. I'm just glad we didn't destroy the Sphinx itself.
Goliath's entrance into the temple isn't one of our most brilliant animated moments. For starters, when Coyote is touching the hieroglyphs, he seems to miss every one. Goliath than claims to be repeating the sequence, but it looks nothing like what Coyote did. Yet it works for both of them. Maybe getting into that temple isn't as hard as it looks.
I love how the power of death flows from Jackal/Anubis and then through the Sphinx's own eyes before striking out at Egypt at large. Almost makes the Sphinx seem to come to life in those shots.
And I do love that shot at the end where the gargs are in stone in front of the stone Sphinx.
Love Wolf's reaction: "Shave my head and call me baldy." (Or something like that, all ramble quotations are approximate.)
The animation effects on this episode are all fantastic, particularly the lighting during tranformations (very reminiscent of "Shadows of the Past"). Gorgeous. Another reason for me to be bummed that Disney closed its Tokyo studio.
I like how Anubis has no real mouth. Certainly no synch to his dialogue. My kids both commented on it. It fascinated them. But I also think it puts him on another level. His speech is that of a god. He requires nothing as mundane as a mouth movement to get his meaning across. (That's why it's so disconcerting in "THE GATHERING, PART ONE" when his mouth opens to laugh. He seems above something as petty as laughter, non?)
And how about Tony Jay and those great lines of godlike neutrality: "I grant but one boon." "Death is always pointless. That is the point." "All are equal in death." "You would not like to see the Jackal God play favorites." Etc.
All right, once again, let me acknowledge my screw up. I should have let Coyote shoot Elisa, Goliath, Bronx and Angela dead. And have nothing happen. At that moment in the ep, no one can die. Emir and Anubis are just covering that in dialogue. Instead, Elisa pulls off a fairly elegant move that allows them to escape. But how much cooler if the distraction were the mere fact that they survived the Pack's barage unscathed? I blew it.
Otherwise, there is some pretty cool action.
Coyote advises Elisa to take her best shot. She does and it's kinda cool. But less cool because she then comments on it.
Coyote's limp afterwards is a nice touch, I think.
When Elisa and the gargs wake up in chains, Erin says: "They all wake up at the same time suddenly." Leave it to a nine-year-old to point out an obvious cheat.
Erin said, "Yuck, disgusting." when Jackal first transformed.
Benny: "He wants to be the strongest, I'm guessing."
Benny didn't quite get why the Gargs were turning old. (Designing a demonstably old Bronx was NOT easy, by the way.) Or for that matter why Hyena and Wolf turned into Cyber-baby and wolf-cub. (Though both kids thought they were cute.) So the exchanging of energies lacked a bit of clarity for our younger audience, perhaps. Still any excuse to give Keith David an opportunity to do a variation on a theme is fun. Like hearing Keith play Thailog, it was also cool to hear him play a very old Goliath. The guy's a maestro of his own voice.
I do remember arguing with Reaves about the Baby and puppy moment. I thought (a) that it was funny and (b) that it was necessary to illustrate Jackal/Anubis' power. Michael simply thought it was too silly in tone. Now, I'm very glad I held firm. I think it's a great moment. And a little in-context humor really helps any episode. (I also love Jackal's "Baby sister" line that prefaces the change.)
I think in hindsight, Goliath's explanation that the gargs aged at half-speed and Jackal didn't know it, is a cheat. They are visibly very old. Internally, they'd be no less old. It's not like Jackal was thinking, "Hmmm, if I age them fifty years that should be enough." He just kept aging them until they were old and feeble. It's also not like biologically a gargoyle's exterior ages faster than his or her interior.
Ironically, commenting on that was not necessary for the purpose of explaining the action. If there had been no explanation and Goliath had used sheer will power to drag himself up for one last feeble attack, I don't think anyone in the audience would have balked. Rather, I think that dialogue was put in by me to definitively establish the fact that Gargs age at half speed. Oh, well...
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
If given the chance to revive the Gargoyles series, what role would you personally give to these mostly underused and/or underrated characters:
1. Fang- My favorite character, I wonder if he would be given the chance to become one of the typical " one-liner spitting good guy with bad attitude" character (something I would like) or become a mayor villain.
2. Maria Chavez- Would she ever meet the gargoyles?
Also, I would like to know how old Talon, Maggie, Claw and Fang are.
What follows is not meant to be all-inclusive, but just a sampling of my plans...
1. Fang was destined to join "BAD GUYS". That is he was forced to either join Bad Guys or serve a life sentence in prison. He chose the former. For more info on BAD GUYS see the Bad Guys Archive here at ASK GREG, or come to next year's GATHERING in Montreal to see the Bad Guys' story reel for yourself.
2. Ever's a long time. But I had no immediate plans to change either her position or her role within the show. We would have learned more about her home life though, including her daughter.
3. Claw would have remained a mainstay in the Labyrinth, though he also would likely have guest-starred in BAD GUYS.
4. Wolf would have joined the Ultra-Pack.
5. Delilah would also have remained in the Labyrinth. She and Goliath would attempt to "date", but it wouldn't work out.
Finally, my timeline shows the following birth years:
Claw - 1954
Fang - 1968
Talon - 1970
Maggie - 1975
Since Coyote was given artificial intelligence with Xanatos's personality and Thailog was given Xanatos's slant on the world:
1)How does Coyote view Thailog?
If you ask which version of Coyote, I am referring to all the versions of Coyote that know about Thailog and his origins.
2)How does Thailog view Coyote?
I am referring to every version of Coyote that Thailog is aware of.
I don't know exactly HOW artificially intelligent Coyote is through his first four appearances. He has certain pre-programmed responses, which certainly make him appear clever, and he is fairly sophisticated, but I'm not sure I'd label him as artificially intelligent, as the term is usually defined. Compare Matrix, for example.
1. I don't even know if Coyote has info on Thailog. I guess Xanatos would plan a contingency in case Thailog were to appear during one of Coyote's operations. But again, I don't think the Coyote you saw THINKS.
2. As a tinker toy that might some day be of some use.
1.Would you consider the golem to be an AI since it is artificial?
2.If you could rank the AIs of the Gargoyles Universe from most advanced to least advanced where does the Golem fit?
1. Uh, I suppose... but certainly not in the sense that the term is generally used.
2. I'm not sure we yet have any true AI's aside from Matrix.
Does even Coyote 4.0 qualify? He's certainly sophisticated by robotic standards, but is he truly artificially intelligent?
Would you categorize Coldfire & Coldsteel as A.I.'s when it is the sorcerous possession of gargoyle souls that engenders their intelligence?
Am I missing anyone?
So far all I've got is Matrix, who, yes, is more advanced than Golem, if you even want to put Golem on that scale, which I don't.
Just curious is Coyote-X for the Space-spawn occupation of Earth or is he against it?
What about the Space-Spawn are any of them against the occupation of Earth?
Coyote-X views the invasion as an eye-opener. It resets his parameters. Who holds the status quo is of less interest than who will ultimately hold the Galaxy.
The Space-Spawn are no more monolithic than the humans or the gargoyles or anyone. So some may object. But you're not going to meet many of them early on.
Here's a new ramble for ASK GREG & the DCV...
As usual, I watched the episode recently with my family.
And as usual, everytime my five year-old Benny, sees Xanatos and Fox, he tells his seven year old sister Erin, "You were her. I was Xanatos and you were Fox." [All quotations (both from my kids or from the episode) are approximate.]
This is a big episode for attitudes.
Xanatos and Fox pit multiple individuals against each other in life and death circumstances and regard it all as a game.
Lex still hates the Pack.
Dingo is disgusted with the Pack's life of crime, and then even more disgusted with what his teammates do to their bodies. Cool lines like "Save the horrorshow..." or "I hope you don't eat your catch..." or "You're barely our species..." or "I still can't get over what you three did to yourselves..." or "I'm a partner in a freakshow..." or "...after they went Frankenstein on me..." all help distinguish him, perhaps for the first time. We had a notion of where Dingo was going. And this episode helped bridge the gap to "Walkabout". And eventually to the development I did with Gary Sperling, Bob Kline, Troy Adomitis, Doug Murphy and Patrick Archibald on "BAD GUYS," which some of you have seen at the Gathering.
How the mighty have fallen. My point-of-view and Dingo's matched up. The Pack were beginning to feel pathetic. The problem with villains is that after the heroes keeps beating them over and over, you need to find a way to keep them competitive. This episode (reflected in its title, which may or may not have been one of mine, but which I latched onto EARLY and stuck with) was always part of my plans for the Pack. Intro them in the first season as humans. This was necessary, because the world of our first season was MUCH more normal. I wanted to weird the world up in small steps. Don't intro Oberon first, intro Puck. That kind of thing. So once the science was established, we'd upgrade.
This dovetailed nicely with the need for Goliath to 'upgrade' one of his warriors to Second-In-Command. Goliath had been Hudson's second. Demona had been Goliath's. But it was past time to name a new successor. We always had Brooklyn in mind for that roll, but I remember asking Gary whether he felt we had succeeded in establishing that without ever having stated it. He felt we had. What did you guys think when you first saw the episode?
The battle at the bank. On my tape, there's an animation glitch where Dingo hits his head and then seems to intentionally hit his head again. I'm hoping it got fixed for later airings.
Anyway, the battle winds down. No one's done very well. But the Pack is on the run. Erin at this point says, "There's no messing with the big boys." Proving that the Pack was no longer competitive.
Wolf yells, "This isn't over!" sounding very much like Hakon to my ears.
Lex wants to pursue, but Brooklyn already the subconscious leader of everyone's choice, says, "Helping Goliath is more important."
Hudson gooses Goliath to choose a second. Refuses the job himself. This is another example of Hudson being the guardian of tradition. He knows they live in a brave new world. But he wants to preserve what worked in the old one as well.
Erin says, "I think Goliath's going to choose the red guy." Meaning Brooklyn. I am briefly horrified that my own kids don't reliably know the names of the lead characters. (Of course, before last week, we hadn't watched the series in a year. But still...)
I love the idea of Coyote's head knocking on the door of the Pack's ship. For starters it's so odd to get a knock while in flight. Second, how did he knock. Why with his forehead of course...
The trio begin their competition. Bronx is disgusted.
The new Pack is revealed. What was everyone's reaction? The Coyote-Head had laid out the options, but were you at all shocked at the upgrades when you first saw them?
I like the creepy Addams Family moment with Jackal's arm. I like that this Wolf and Dingo are now competitive in strength with Goliath.
I find it interesting that we had Goliath say, "What manner of trickery is this?" instead of "What sorcery is this?" I mean, who were we kidding, right?
Hudson then brings up the Archmage's sorcery. Just a reminder that the Archmage existed for what we knew was coming in Avalon.
I don't know if this was fixed for reairing, but their's a big mistake in this first battle. Goliath spots COYOTE the robot flying off and goes off alone in pursuit. This was supposed to be him spotting just the little head. He goes off after the head, thinking he'll find Xanatos or something. Then the giant Robot steps forward. Would have been a much better reveal.
I love the interaction as the Pack chooses a leader.
Cree is great reading: "Coyote, honey..." and "I find him very attractive." Hyena's attraction to Coyote was a fun running gag. But did it influence her choice of upgrades?
Jackal is grossed out, proving as ever, that he's just a tad saner than his sister. "Well, that's sicker than usual." He sides with Wolf, just for that reason.
Leaving Dingo with the deciding vote.
More animation errors that I hope got corrected eventually: Fox's lips don't move. So suddenly we're hearing her internal monologue.
Note that Broadway actually foils the most crime in their nightly competition. We did that on purpose. To show that was never the point.
Xanatos says, "Clever move." to end an act.
Then we come back, and he's confident saying, "I think I've still got the edge." Of course that line was a literal reuse of the line from "The Edge". We had a lot of so-so animation in this episode. It forced us to cut the show tight enough that we had to add footage. So we reprinted the shot of X&F playing chess and reused the old line to fill the space.
Everytime Hyena's hand folded backwards, Erin would say: "Eww, that's disgusting!"
CONTINUITY: Just as Lex dislikes the Pack, Bronx seems to particularly dislike Coyote. He's always chewing on that bot, forcing Coyote to threaten to "send this puppy into orbit!"
I love Hyena's line: "I wonder if Gargoyles taste like chicken?" Can't help thinking she'd sincerely like to know.
Frank Paur had this idea that when Wolf got angrier, he'd morph even wolfier. But the animation never quite worked on that. It was a great idea, but the transformation doesn't play dramatically, so it just looks like the model changes part way through the fight.
Coyote's demise was heavily influenced by the first Terminator movie. We keep destroying the darn bot, but it just keeps getting up.
Morgan reappears. I was never wild about his "Hospital, Machine Shop or Vet" line. It's okay, but it seemed a bit too flip.
Goliath, like the production staff, had his choice in mind all along. Brooklyn. By now the trio's come around to the same idea, except Brooklyn himself, who suddenly realizes the weight he'll be carrying around. A prelude to "Kingdom", as he says to Goliath, "Be careful. I'm in no hurry to take your place."
(Nice moment in their when Hudson pets Bronx. It has nothing specific to do with anything else, but it's a nice touch.)
Fox & Xanatos make such a cool couple. I love that he doesn't mind losing to her. Happier to have found a true equal.
And I love that chilling, funny ending: "Care to play again?"
Ever wonder about their next game?
Anyway, there's my ramble. Where's yours?
[In preparation for my new ramble for ASK GREG & the DCV, here's my original memo to Story Editor Gary Sperling on Adam Gilad's first draft outline of the episode "Upgrade". Note the date. At the time I wrote this, "Deadly Force" had just recently aired, but the rest of the first season was being saved for early 1995.]
Notes on "Upgrade" Outline...
My big fear is that Brooklyn didn't feel like leader material in this. To our audience he's going to come off as cautious and wimpy throughout most of the episode, with the added problem that he's subject to peer pressure. This is particularly problematic in that Brooklyn has always been defined as the MOST adventurous of our trio. Ultimately, the qualities that will define him as a leader include strategic abilities, common sense, a willingness to sacrifice... and, yes, knowing when to retreat and/or call for help. But if we make the latter quality into Brooklyn's first instinct, it will overshadow the others. And our audience won't buy him as leader. Maybe more important than all of this should be a natural unconscious quality of leadership, which parallel's Broadway and Lexington's roles as followers. When they stop thinking and slip into automatic pilot, Brooklyn naturally seems to give the orders and the others naturally follow.
These guys do work well as a team, don't be afraid to show that. We've got a competitive thing going between them that will tend to screw up their natural teamwork, but if we're going to prove our point, then we need to see moments when they forget to be competitive and just cooperate. In any case, let's not make them infantile. When you define competitiveness think Tom Cruise and Val Kilmer in Top Gun. These are young warriors, not children elbowing each other as they fly.
Let's also avoid setting up non-existent flaws in Lex and Broadway. Things like Broadway being slow to awaken is just not born out in any of our other episodes. They all wake up within a few seconds of each other at sunset.
Having said all this, you'll see below that I gave them less screen time, mostly because it choreographed cleaner, but also because it really put something at stake other than the contest for leader (i.e. the lives of their friends). Plus I've isolated them from everyone that usually provides them with help or advice (Goliath, Hudson, Elisa and even Bronx). So I'm crossing my fingers that what we lose in quantity time, we will make up for in quality.
I'm also concerned that we've Upgraded the Pack, only to make them seem even more incompetent than ever. They've got to feel considerably more dangerous. We need to believe the Gargoyles barely survived this go 'round. The Pack's leadership issues cannot get too far in the way of their success. Ultimately the gargoyles do triumph because their teamwork under Brooklyn defeats a divided Pack. But if the Pack members are just at each others throats through the whole program, they'll never feel like a viable threat. Remember, despite the dangerously unstable personalities involved (including Coyote, but not Dingo), the Pack's fighting style is based on teamwork by definition. Let them play to their strength, that way it'll be even more ironic when the gargoyles defeat them through teamwork driven by sound leadership.
PACK UPGRADE SPECS
What follows may be what you had in mind, but I want to make sure we're all operating off the same page.
WOLF - gets turned into a werewolf. The biggest and most obvious change will be to his head, which will have a canine shape. Like Talon and his mutants, Wolf will be covered with hair all over, his hands will be clawed, and he'll have haunches. He cannot fly, but he can leap far distances. He'll probably have a better sense of smell and hearing, but I want to downplay these last qualities, because I think they can come off as silly. (Let's not make him an object of ridicule to his teammates simply because he's gotten more dog-like. They are all themed off canines. Both Coyote's head and Dingo's helmet will be dog-shaped as well. I would think that Jackal, Hyena and Coyote would all respect the power which came with his choice of Upgrade. Hyena might make an obnoxious comment here or there, but the only one who's really attacking his choice is Dingo -- and obviously it's not for aesthetic reasons.) Wolf will be much stronger than he was, now on a par with Goliath.
JACKAL & HYENA - become Cyborgs. Half human. Half machine. And the machine parts are NOT camouflaged as human. They have built in weapons. Cyborg legs will also allow them to leap far distances. Maybe even built in flight capabilities. And their strength will increase to Gargoyle level. Maybe not as strong as Goliath or Broadway, but equal or above the others.
DINGO - wears full body armor, including a helmet. Sort of like what we thought Xanatos was wearing as Coyote (in "Leader of the Pack") before we found out Coyote was a robot. (Model sheets are available for Coyote if you're unclear.) The focus should be on his armor, not on "weapons". All the weapons are built in. And the armor should be as flexible and powerful as Xanatos' own Gargoyle armor (screen "The Edge"), plus whatever latest innovations were thrown into this design. That means Dingo should be able to fly. Rocket jets in his boots. Or a rocket pack on his back. Probably not as maneuverable or graceful as a Gargoyle, but he can hover, which they can't do. Again, his strength level is now increased. Probably just under Wolf and Goliath range. (Note: Dingo also has less screen time than I'd like to be able to give him here, so we've really got to make his moments of uneasiness about his partners count. One visual clue that I think will help is the fact that Dingo removes his helmet every chance he gets. He subconsciously needs periodic reassurance that the helmet isn't a part of him and that he hasn't in fact relinquished his humanity.)
COYOTE - Although he's still programmed to have a slightly more vengeful version of Xanatos' personality, Coyote doesn't look like Xanatos anymore. What would be the point? He looks like a huge exaggerated version of the original Coyote. Mighty Joe Young may be a little too big, but you get the idea. If Goliath is eight feet tall than Coyote-II is more like ten or eleven, and built like a gorilla. Coyote is definitely stronger than Goliath, and he can fly. Being huge may have it's disadvantages, but not too many. This is the most powerful and sophisticated robot that Xanatos has built yet. It's computer brain (at least part of which should be the damaged head from "Leader") is well-protected in the robot's chest.
PACK ATTACK VEHICLE - This isn't and never was a van. It flies. It submerges underwater. This is super high-tech. I'm not sure if it even has an exhaust pipe. Model sheets exist if you need to see them.
OWEN vs. COYOTE'S HEAD
You can't have Owen. He's a stand-in for Xanatos, and you've already got one of those: the damaged head of Coyote from "Leader".
LEXINGTON'S TRACKING DEVICE vs. FOX
You can't have this device either. I don't want to ever make the gargoyles too high-tech in their crime-fighting. If we give Lex the ability to make one of these here, we're stuck with him having this knowledge and wondering all the time why he doesn't use it over and over. Besides, why would he create a device that tracks, but only tracks when it's inhaling carbon monoxide fumes?
At any rate, the gargoyles may not need the device. They have a secret ally that even they are not aware of: Fox. It's obvious here how Xanatos is manipulating his chess pieces. But Fox doesn't seem to be moving hers in opposition. She's simply counting on them to defeat the Pack. In some subtle way, let her "move" her pieces too. [Note: the method I use below is semi-goofy at best. If you like it you can use it, but feel free to come up with something better.]
Also, please be careful that Xanatos doesn't say anything that might imply that he threw the match. If he wasn't trying his best to win, he wasn't respecting Fox as an opponent.
MONTAGE vs. NO MONTAGE
Sorry. After cuts were made for both S&P and for things that I did not want to reveal, there wasn't anything left. So out it went.
All gargoyles sleep as stone to recharge during the day, which allows them to operate at their peak throughout the night. Hudson's peak may not be what it once was, but he doesn't need extra downtime at night.
1. Night. Bank job being carried out by what's left of the PACK: WOLF, JACKAL, HYENA and DINGO. There's an air of desperation here. They need money because they are on the run. They get to the roof, where their PACK ATTACK VEHICLE is hovering. And where it has attracted the attention of the patrolling gargoyles: BROOKLYN, LEXINGTON, BROADWAY and GOLIATH. There is a battle. The Pack is a bit out-classed, but only just. The Pack has the weapons and technology. What they lack is flight capability, brute strength (Wolf is incredibly strong for a human, but no match for Goliath) and leadership (Wolf acts like he's the leader, the others just don't naturally follow him). In contrast, Goliath leads his troops effectively. Give the Pack credit for figuring that out. They agree to take out the leader. And they do. Goliath is injured.
The Pack get away in their vehicle, but without the money. Lex momentarily wants to pursue his hated enemies, but as sirens approach, Brooklyn thinks the priority should be to get Goliath back to the safety of the CLOCK TOWER. He asks Broadway to help him carry Goliath. Neither Lex or Broadway question Brooklyn's leadership at this stage. Nor do any of the three, including Brooklyn, make a point of saying that Brooklyn is in charge. He just says some very common sense things and the others see the sense in it and follow his lead.
2. Meanwhile, the Pack Vehicle flies through the Manhattan Night. Maybe some brief sniping between the members, before there's a knock on the door... which seems odd at this altitude. Almost despite himself, Dingo opens the hatch to reveal COYOTE'S HEAD flying alongside on it's little mini-rocket. It still has half of Xanatos' face, and it asks politely in Xanatos' voice if it can come in. (There's also a model sheet completed on this damaged head. It looks pretty cool if you want the reference.)
3. Back at the Clock Tower near dawn, HUDSON tends to Goliath. It's a bad laser burn, but it'll heal when the sun rises and they turn to stone. But it brings up something that's concerned Hudson for awhile. He hates to even say it, but next time Goliath might not be so lucky. Goliath needs to name a second-in-command. Goliath chooses Hudson, of course. But Hudson declines. Goliath was Hudson's lieutenant and became his successor when it was time for Hudson to step down. Goliath needs to choose one of the trio. But first Goliath must sleep. The trio hear all this. Hudson has intentionally made no attempt to hide the conversation from them. They all straighten-up, leader-like. And the sun rises. Goliath turns to stone still cradled in his comrades arms.
4. Because the sun has risen, the Pack Vehicle dives beneath the surface of the Hudson River (or the East River or the Bay or whatever). It comes to a stop on the bottom and rests.
Inside, the Coyote Head has literally latched itself onto the ships computers. He's lowered a screen and is starting his sales pitch. Tired of being out-classed by the gargoyles? Ready to be as strong as them? To fly like them? Etc.? Well, let me show you what we can do. Is Genetic-Engineering your passion? (He shows footage of TALON in action trashing Goliath.) Or is Cybernetics more your style? (He shows footage of COLDSTONE trashing Goliath.) A little high-tech haberdashery, perhaps? (Footage of XANATOS in his GARGOYLE ARMOR trashing Goliath, with at least one shot of Xanatos with the helmet off.) Or my favorite, Robotics? (Footage of COYOTE trashing Goliath. This obviously doesn't apply to the four humans, but I want to get it in here to hint at Coyote's rebirth as well.)
Obviously, they are all very interested. Dingo goes for the armor and pretty much writes off the rest as horror show. The other three don't state their preferences. Coyote Head: "All made possible by the men and women of XANATOS ENTERPRISES." Where is Xanatos? Occupied at the moment, but happy to be of assistance.
5. At the castle, Xanatos and FOX seem to be playing chess, but we don't get to see the game board or the pieces. Xanatos has made the first move.
6. Super: ONE MONTH LATER. Clock Tower. The trio are just leaving to patrol the city separately and in competition. They've hardly done anything else, each is so intent on being Goliath's second in command. Hudson's in his comfy chair with the t.v. set on, but he's not watching. After the trio leave, he chides Goliath, who has to decide between the three young warriors. Goliath seems strangely reluctant to choose.
Just then ELISA enters. The desk sergeant just received an "anonymous" tip on the Pack's location. S.W.A.T. Teams from three precincts are mobilizing. But Elisa has listened to a recording of the tip and recognized the voice as Xanatos'. She'd like to be there in an unofficial capacity. Goliath agrees. No time to wait for the trio, but the Pack can be tough, so they'll take BRONX. They leave in such a hurry, Hudson doesn't bother to turn off the t.v.
7. An abandoned building scheduled for demolition, which the police have totally surrounded. The S.W.A.T. LEADER talks through a megaphone, giving the Pack a chance to surrender peacefully. There is no response. Tear gas canisters are shot through the windows -- followed by an explosion that practically levels the building. The tear gas couldn't have caused that. The building must have been rigged to blow.
Goliath, Elisa, Hudson and Bronx watch from a nearby rooftop. At first they don't notice the little Coyote Head, which zips around the site like a humming bird looking for food. Then the head spots them and approaches. It tells them that this little display was just designed to attract their attention. If the gargoyles really want to find the Pack, they're going to have to follow the head, which they do.
8. Goliath, Elisa, Hudson and Bronx follow the Head to a construction site. It's the skeletal beginnings of a skyscraper. As soon as they arrive the new ARMORED DINGO flies in. After Dingo, comes the new CYBORG JACKAL and HYENA, followed finally by the new WERE-WOLF. Our heroes are surrounded.
9. Picking up where we left off, we have a fight. The Coyote-Head zips away and with Hudson's blessing Goliath follows it. (He thinks it will lead to the source of the trouble.) Although the Pack works together, there are hints that they are in some competition with each other. Ultimately, the Pack knocks out Hudson, Elisa and Bronx, with Wolf personally taking down Hudson.
Elsewhere in the structure, Goliath catches up to the Head which says that it would like to introduce Goliath to its "better half". A huge shadow looms.
Back with the Pack, where we get a sense of the tension between the members. As Dingo takes off his helmet, hint that he hasn't been able to get over the horrific things that his teammates have had done to their bodies. We also find out they've been fighting over who should lead. They agreed before the fight that whoever took out the biggest gargoyle, would get to be the leader. Wolf took out Hudson, so he feels entitled.
On cue, Goliath is knocked through a brick wall. He falls unconscious at their feet. And then the rest of the wall is knocked down to reveal the new robot COYOTE-II: "Sorry, Wolf. I think my Goliath tops your Hudson."
The Pack are all stunned, but for Hyena it's love at first sight: "Coyote, honey, is that you?" A panel slides open inside Coyote's chest to reveal the Coyote Head literally plugged into the inner workings of this huge machine. No way Wolf is taking orders from a machine. No one ever said Coyote was part of the contest. Wolf is still leader. But Hyena disagrees, she's siding with her new boyfriend. Jackal can't believe his sister has fallen in love with a glorified toaster oven. He's not exactly Wolf's biggest fan, but he's got to go with old furball. They all turn to Dingo to break the tie. Dingo looks at his helmet. He makes it clear that he's not wild about his options: a robot who thinks he's human or a lunatic who gave up his humanity. But he turns to Coyote and says, "O.K. boss, what's our next move?"
10. Back at the Clock Tower, the trio are each getting back after a night of competitively patrolling the city alone. Lex prevented two muggings. Brooklyn prevented one mugging and scared off a burglar. Broadway stopped three muggings and an armed robbery: "Just have to know where to look," he says proudly. Then they realize that the tower is empty. Even Bronx is gone. And if Hudson and Goliath lugged Bronx along with them it must have been trouble.
11. Cut to the interior of some kind of hanger for the Pack Attack Vehicle. We do not get an exterior to show us where we are, but we do hear a train go by every minute or so. Goliath, Hudson, Bronx and Elisa are in a glass chamber filled with a colored gas that keeps them unconscious. Wolf isn't at all pleased about waiting around. How is sitting on their hands going to help them find the other gargoyles? But Coyote has a plan. It's midnight now. At 4:30 am they'll release Bronx from the chamber. He'll almost definitely lead them straight to the Gargoyle's Home Base. And he should get there just before sunrise, allowing the Pack to arrive just after sunrise and smash the remaining gargoyles into gravel.
12. In Xanatos' office, he and Fox are still playing chess. Xanatos: "You're in check, my dear."
13. The trio are still waiting for Goliath et al at the clock tower. It's 3 A.M. and they are very worried. It's only a couple hours 'til sunrise. And no sign of Elisa either. And the tension isn't doing wonders for their dispositions. They argue over what to do. The television gives them a clue when a report comes in about the bombing at the abandoned building. The report mentions that the fire was contained because the police were already on the scene, having received a false tip that those escaped felons (and former television stars) known as the Pack were there. They're about to head out to investigate, when they hear "The following is a paid commercial message." Lex recognizes the voice as Fox's. Brooklyn didn't think Fox was still in the Pack. But the commercial continues. "Tired of walking up Lexington Avenue? Sick of taking the bus down Broadway? Fed up with driving your car to Brooklyn? Then take the subway!" And an image appears on the screen of a place where multiple tracks criss-cross above ground. Well, that can't be a coincidence. One of them recognizes the location, he's flown over it. But is this a tip or a trap? Well, what choice do they have? Off they go.
14. Trio arrive at Train crossing. Again, there are multiple tracks crossing in multiple directions, and every minute or so, another train rushes by at high speed. They find a large metal shack, that's supposed to house train cars or something, but is acting as a hangar for the Pack Vehicle instead. They sneak in and get a look at the upgraded Pack and their sleeping friends. Broadway and Lexington are all for mounting an immediate attack. Brooklyn is reluctant. Just look at the size of Coyote, who's in the middle of putting a tracking device on Bronx. They need help to defeat these guys. But where are they going to get help? From Goliath and the rest. Our priority should be freeing them. Both Broadway and Lex try to peer pressure him. Maybe he's afraid to fight without Goliath, but they're not. But Brooklyn isn't biting. He's not scared, and he's also not stupid. They need a plan.
A little bit later, Brooklyn makes his presence known and then takes off as a decoy. Coyote figures as much, but Wolf and Jackal won't listen to reason and take off after him. And right after they leave, the power goes out inside the hanger, thanks to Lex. Dingo reaches for his helmet, but it's not there. Broadway has it and throws it with all his might at the sleep chamber. The helmet smashes a hole in the chamber, allowing the gas to pour out. But meanwhile things don't look good for the trio. Coyote slams into Broadway carrying them both outside. Hyena and Dingo pursue Lex.
So outside the battle continues amid the backdrop of unpredictable and speeding trains shooting past on random tracks. Eventually, however, Brooklyn's delaying tactic pays off. The others have been given the opportunity to recover from the sleep chamber. They join the fight, and the tide of the battle turns. The Pack is defeated. GARY, LET'S DISCUSS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PACK AT THE END OF THIS SHOW.
15. Back at the clock tower, Goliath realizes that tonight's events only prove what Hudson has been saying all along. He must choose a second in command. He's had a choice in mind for weeks, but has been reluctant to reveal it, because he was afraid that it would drive a wedge between the trio. But tonight they worked together and saved the clan. He has to trust that they are mature enough to handle this. He chooses Brooklyn. (This without being aware of who spear-headed tonight's success.) The others are genuinely happy for Brooklyn. He proved himself to them. They take their places outside and Brooklyn looks across the city. A siren wails. He shakes his head and tells Goliath to be careful. He's in no hurry to take his place. They turn to stone.
16. Dawn. Fox says checkmate, and we reveal the board with its pieces based on our characters. She knows her husband doesn't like to lose. Is he upset? Of course not, he's happy to have an opponent to match his skill. Made the game more fun. "Care to play again?" FADE OUT.
1) What year was Wolf born?
2) What year was Jackal born?
3) What year was Hyena born?
4) What nationality are Jackal and Hyena?
Boy, this is fun.
2 & 3. 1968.
5. Dingo: 1960.
6. Fox: 1966.
7. Coyote first activated in 1995.
A few Coyote questions...
(1) coyote 4.0 was in "cloud fathers" and coyote 6.0 forms the ultra-pack, so what happens to coyote 5.0.
(2)coyote 6.0 forms the ultra-pack and coyte 7.0 leads it, why have to coyotes at the same time sounds a bit confusing if you ask me.
1. He's very important to the Coyote line. But I don't want to give details at this point.
2. I never said they existed at the same time. Of course, I never said they didn't either.
In "Eye of the Beholder" Fox briefly see Elisa as her human self, and then attack her -- and you said it was "It's both a manifestation of Fox's own self-loathing (amplified by the Eye), and an attempt for the Eye to gain control by having her symbolically destroy her humanity."
My question is, what do you mean by self loathing? Why did Fox loath herself? Is this a temporary result of being controlled by the Eye, or is it deeper loathing that was there before the Eye came to her.
Another Fox question, How did Fox and Xanatos meet?
Was Fox a professional mercenary before the PACK, or act in that capacity with the PACK before their run in with the Gargoyles?
Final Fox question *^_^* -- When Goliath said the Eye made her MORE herself, what did he mean by that? That being a big were-fox/wolf creature was Fox's true nature? Goliath and the Archmage didn't turn into beasts, just suped up versions of theirselves. But Fox went animal kingdom on us. Do you have some behind the scenes thoughts you would share with us on that?
Basically, I just like Fox, so any thought you have on her that you would express would be appreciated *^_^*
Thanks you for taking the time to read my questions!
1. I think Fox has some issues. The fact that even when she is in love, she thinks she can't love or be loved, that she doesn't deserve love, etc. is central to her problems. Her parents and their relationships to her and each other play in too. I don't want to go into much more depth here or now.
2. Story for another day.
3. X created the Pack around Fox. She did some 'professional' work, before its creation.
4. Well, let's begin with the notion that Goliath is one character and doesn't necessarily speak for me. But I think what he was getting at was her beastial, predatory nature.
1.) You've answered, "He's indifferent in the incarnations you've seen" when Lord Sloth asked whether Coyote the robot had any feelings for Hyena. Because of your choice of the word "incarnations", let me rephrase the question to ask:
When they become part of the Ultra Pack, how will Coyote the robot feel towards Hyena?
2.) What gender will the fifth Ultra Pack member be?
1. Don't know yet.
2. Not telling.
What Central American wars did Dingo fight in?
Where did Fox get the tattoo?
1. I'd have to research that.
2. Over her eye.
What are Jackal and Hyena¡¯s real names?
Not yet established.
Is the Ultra-Pack still around in 2198?
How similar is Coyote-X to Ultron?
Not very similar at all, I think.
The one thing I 'homaged' was the whole numbering system, though we modernized the idea into computer style upgrades.
Ultron is an influence, obviously, but I think the differences between the two, both in terms of goal and style speak for themselves.
It brings me to another distinction: the one between sentience and artificial intelligence. Coyote, for instance, can throw a zinger, but is he self-aware? I don't think he is. Xanatos hasn't achieved (or would wish to achieve) that much, has he?
I don't know anything about computer technology past it's relationship to cognitive studies into artificial intelligence. There is a lot of dispute about the possibility of an actual computer intelligence. I'm not competent to say if the possibility is real but I would not discount it. I can see numerous avenues for foundations for intelligence besides the neurochemical variety. Incidentally, I once took a Turing test...and failed. I was delighted.
I don't know what a "Turing test" is. Sorry.
I believe that in the Gargoyles Universe that artificial intelligence is truly possible. I just don't think any Coyote robot we've seen has truly achieved it yet.
Matrix may be closer.
1. in Leader of the Pack when the clan learns from Elisa that the Pack escaped from prison Lex wants to head off to PMS cuz he thinks they'll return there like "snakes to a nest", Goliath and Elisa try to stop him and then Brooklyn says he'll go with Lex to PMS to check it out. what gives Brooklyn the authority to just run off with Lex like that, hes not yet Second and he never asks Goliath or anyone if they can go?
2. what does "snakes to a nest" mean anyway? from what i know of snakes, they all abandon their eggs completly or stay with their eggs until they hatch.
1. Look, these guys have been working together for awhile. Brooklyn makes the offer (whether he phrases it that way or not), and Goliath tacitly accepts. What's going on here, primarily, is that everyone is aware that Lex is out of control. Elisa (and thus Goliath and Brooklyn and everyone) don't believe that the Studio is a likely place for the Pack to go to. So Brooklyn goes along to keep Lex out of trouble at a theoretically harmless location.
2. Ask the writer. I was just the producer.
1. did Dingo meet up with Coyote for the first time when he was in Europe or was it when he returned to the States?
2. how well did Dingo know Coyote? did he know that it was 'Xanatos'?
1. That's a story for another day.
2. Not well. No.
1. does Coyote from Upgrade still have the memories of his original version from Leader of the Pack?
2. since the head of Coyote Version 1 was destroyed in Version 2 does Version 3 or 4 still have the memories of Version 1 and 2?
what i'm asking is, did each Coyote Version that Xnatos built have a completly blank memory to start with or were the memories from the previous Coyotes passed on.
and i agree that with all these Coyotes, Coyote was probably a relative of Wile E. Coyote.
And that was the idea.
Hey, random question. Any idea what Coyote version number finally hits on the idea of changing his name to Coyote-X? Just curious.
I left it open on purpose.
I now have a list of questions to for you about love. ahhh
1. Does Hyena love Jackel?
2. Does Jackel love Hyena?
3. How serius are Hyena's feelings to Cyotie? Is she madley im love with him, or just mildly attracted? Either way, it's kinda gross
4. How does Cyotie feel toward Hyena? He seemed up for they idea of "making sparks fly".
5. Does Fox love Anistasia(before and after the Gathering)?
6. Does Halcyen still carry a torch for Anistasia? And does he now know that she is Titania?
7. Does Titania love fox?
8. Does Puck love Alex?
9. Does Oberon love anyone besides Titania?
10. Does Dracon dream about Elisa and him being together?
11. Was Brooklyn attracted to Demona before "Temptation". He seems to go after the most females.
12. Does Iago feel in love with Desdemona, or is it a strong sexual attraction, or is it just to hurt Othello?
13. Was there a time when Desdemona had feelings toward Iago?
14. Does Vinnie have a special someone (besides himself), or does everyone think he is too wierd?
15. Has Thailog ever felt love, even in the slightest way?
16. Was Malcolm and Elaina's wedding more out of love, or convenience?
17. Do Banquo and Florence have a thing for each other?
18. Does Cagney have a special kitty friend, or just Elisa?
19. Has the Magus been yerning for Kathern all of his life, and never told her how he felt? If yes., thats pretty sad.
20. And, somewhere deep deep down, both Goliath and Demona both yern to again be one, now and forever. Right? I better be. And this would have been shown in latter episodes besides dark ages right?
I'm sure you can see from my questions that I am QUITE the softy. And I love how Gargoyles uses this topic so often. Great job!!!
Twenty Questions! YAY! :P
1. Sure, to the extent she knows how.
3. Something between madly in love and mildly attracted.
4. He's indifferent in the incarnations you've seen.
6. Yes and Yes.
7. Of course.
9. Yes. His children and his Children and the island of his birth and all the funny little mortals. He's a benificent one, that Oberon.
11. I think Brooklyn respected Goliath too much to think that way, to allow himself to think that way.
12. The first two. The third is just a side benefit.
14. He is currently available? You interested?
15. He's not admitting to it, unless he's lying.
16. Politics. And a hope of love.
17. They're exes.
18. That avenue has not yet been explored.
19. Not all his life. After all, he's ten years older than she is. But yes, it is sad.
20. I think somewhere deep, deep down Goliath wants to be with Elisa. And somewhere deep deep down, Demona wants to be with someone who is right for her.
I have something to add about the definition of "sentience." Hopefully you remember this comment thread by the time you get to this. It involved talk of "The One" vs. "The Other" and the ethics of destroying planets in Star Trek, etc. Here's my take:
"Sentience" is a distinctly different quality from "Intelligence." Sentience is being self-aware. Therefore just about all life with a backbone is sentient. Intelligence is the ambiguous one. But we don't like ambiguity, so that's why sentience has taken the role it has in popular language. I say my dog is sentient, a frog isn't. I say a human is intelligent, so is a gorrilla, but a dog isn't. I guess it's ALL subjective in the end.
It brings me to another distinction: the one between sentience and artificial intelligence. Coyote, for instance, can throw a zinger, but is he self-aware? I don't think he is. Xanatos hasn't achieved (or would wish to achieve) that much, has he?
I don't believe that the Coyote robots we have seen through "Cloud Fathers" can truly be called sentient. At least not by my definition. I'm not sure if I completely agree with yours.
How does Cyotie 1.0 have enough rocket fuel in his head to take him back to Xanatos? It seems like quite a feat, isn't his brain supost ta be in there somewhere to? It still looks very cool though.
I think you've answered your own question.
1) Besides Coyote X, will any members of the Pack (or Super Pack) appear in Gargoyles 2198?
2) Who is the eighth member of the Pack, that will be added after the Pack gets up-graded to the Super Pack? Just a name would be nice. Please.
All right, first off, it's the Ultra-Pack, not the Super Pack.
Eighth member? How are you counting?
I just answered question 1 about five minutes ago.
What is the thing on Fox's Eye and where did it come from?
It's a tatoo.
Demoness> Greg said that they turned it into a planter. LOL one of my favirote smart-ass responses!
a better question would be:
where did Jackal and Hyena get a laser-proof, missile equipped helicopter in the first place?
From Xanatos. Although they didn't know that he provided it.
Greg few questions regarding the Pack.
I believe that in "Thrill of the Hunt" When Goliath can't belive that Lexington let the Pack see him Lex says
"I am not stupid, they don't know we turn to stone during the day" Am I am correct on this?
If so then why is it in "Upgrade" Hyena cackles and states. "We'll follow'em home and smash the rest where they roost" ?
Did the Coyote robot have knowledge of gargoyle sleep cycles? Obviously Xanatos is aware of them, so he could have given that knowledge to Coyote.
Or by that time had the Pack just figured it out?
1. So far.
2. They had more info by that time. From Coyote.
4. See above.
Does the cyotie dimond have anything to do with cyotie robot? How bout the immortal cyotie? What does it have ti do with either/both if it has something to do with them at all? Hope you get my language!
Connections will be made someday.
A few questions, now, about "Gargoyles 2198":
1. I've noticed a few parallel elements in it with "Future Tense", as follows:
Demona joining forces with the resistance movement.
The LXMs serving as a parallel to "Cyber-Lex".
Coyote-X as a parallel to the Xanatos Program (artificial intelligences out to conquer the world, both derived ultimately from Xanatos - although I doubt that Coyote-X has any direct connection to Xanatos, he did originate the Coyote line of robots).
Were these three elements intended as parallels to "Future Tense", a la the destruction of the clock tower in the original series?
2. What sort of occupation do you imagine the Space-Spawn making on Earth? A really tyrannical regime of the sort where Earth's population is reduced to slave labor, or a more remote occupation where they pretty much let the Earthlings go on with their lives, though now as subjects of the Space-Spawn Empire?
3. How is it that Coyote-X is out to conquer, first the planet, then the galaxy? I will confess that I have something of a problem with the notion of a robot or artificial intelligence out to conquer the world; such a goal strikes me as more fitted to an "organic being" with such emotions as greed, ambition, arrogance, etc., than to an artificial intelligence, which I simply can't imagine developing emotions (truth to tell, my own thoughts on machines are pretty much the same as those of Goliath in "Outfoxed" - machines know only what they are programmed to know; it's living beings, such as humans and gargoyles, who are capable of making decisions, and choosing between the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do). I didn't have any problems with the Matrix undertaking this route in "Walkabout" since it was portrayed here as merely a logical extension of its programming (to bring about order to the terrain of the world; it was merely misinterpreting its mission) rather than being motivated by power-lust. However, I'm not certain as to how Coyote-X developed its goal. (Of course, artificial intelligences could have come a long way by 2198, and maybe by that time they have developed emotions and the weaknesses and failings of living beings like humans and gargoyles). Of course, I doubt that you want to fill us in on the details yet, but I just thought that I'd mention it.
1. Yes and no. I love playing with the Future Tense expectaions. But on another level, it's just the characters telling me what they want. I know what Lex does in the late nineties early "oughts". I know what that leads to in turn. I know Demona well enough to know that she's sure not gonna like the Space-Spawn after they steal all the Gargoyle Eggs. And I know what happens to Coyote and how he's going to evolve and upgrade. So maybe Puck was being a bit prophetic. After all, the characters are deciding things for themselves. And he wasn't half wrong.
2. In the immortal words of Abe Simpson, "A little from column A and a little from column B."
3. Well, artificial intelligence has come a long way by 2198. Thanks in no small part to Coyote, Coldsteel, Lexington, Matrix, Fox and Anastasia. (An odd group. But there you go.)
How does Coyote the robot end up like the Machiavellian schemer that he is in Gargoyles:2198?
With help. And multiple upgrades.
OK, Heres a good one!
If Fox had stayed as leader of the pack untill "upgrade" would she have upgraded her body in anyway or would she have taken Dingo's view on the matter. If she did upgrade herself what sort of thing would she do to herself and how sadistic would it be.
Mabey you wont mind this type of hypothetical question.
Why is THIS type of hypothetical any different from the others?
I'm not fond of them, but I doubt Fox would have done anything to her body.
By now the 2198 contest has probabyl ended so a few questions
1.Why doesn't Oberon involve himself in the war afterall the head of his honor guard has been taken hostage along with Titania's grandson?
2.What ever happened to Natsilane's parents?
3.Is the Delilah, Samson and Zafiro relationship in anyway like that of the trio? Who exactly is Samson's mate going to be?
4.What is the proper name for the Space-Spawn
5.How did Coyote become so devious?
1. Are you sure Oberon is still alive?
2. I'm not answering this now.
3. Well, there are three of them. But no two groups are exactly the same. Samson likes Delilah. Delilah likes Samson. But whether they ever become mates is an open question.
4. As opposed to Space-Spawn?
5. Iron supplements.
Greg, saw "Walkabout" recently and had a question about Dingo's ending line about Australia having a new kind of hero. Was this intended in any way as a jab to Crocodile Dundee, who had been very popular in the previous decade? Maybe it's just because CROCODILE DUNDEE IN L.A. came out in the last few months that my mind made that kind of connection... not sure. Thanks!
Well, it's not like I never saw the original Crocodile Dundee movie, so I suppose anything's possible.
But honestly, no, I don't think it was any kind of Dundee reference.
ummm, did wolf die when all those cars fell on him or was he sent to jail? Seems like a lot of impact for even a mutate werewolf to take!
He's not dead.
I just rewatched "Vendettas", and yup, a few questions came to mind:
1) While battling Wolf/Hakon, I noticed that Hudson is pretty proficient with his sword, yet you said that he had just happened to pick up the weapon during the battle with the Vikings. Had he actually had some sword training beforehand, or did he learn how to use one through trial and error?
2) While Hakon was possessing Wolf, he told him that if he destroyed the axe, Hakon would lose his only link to the Earth plane and disappear. However, in "Possession", Desdemona and Othello lamented over the fact that if they destroyed the Coldstone body, they would be trapped in Broadway and Angela forever. You've said before that the relationship that Hakon has with the axe is similar to that of the Coldtrio and their mechanical bodies. a) So if what the Coldtrio said about possessing hosts also applies to Hakon, would he in fact have been able to remain permanently in Wolf's body if the latter had destroyed the axe while he was still being possessed? b) Puck had said that soul transferance was tricky, and that the host had to be willing to be possessed. So how was Hakon able to take over Wolf? Wolf didn't seem to happy about it when he regained consciousness, so I don't think he would have been willing. c) Why did Hakon need to worry about Wolf destroying the axe? Couldn't he have taken complete possession of Wolf once he managed to get inside him and prevented him from doing the weapon any harm?
1. Maybe a bit of both.
2. a. Different deal, basically.
b. They were sympatico. Ancestor/descendent with a common hatred of Goliath.
c. Obvioulsy, he couldn't. Not when Wolf was conscious.
Something I would like to point out:
The fifth Ultra-Pack member wouldn't HAVE to be named after a canid--- just has to live in a pack. I mean, hyenas are aren't dogs, but they are pack animals. (But then, a fox is a canid and isn't a pack animal, so I suppose that logic isn't sound...)
Logic may not be the main issue here. Look who we're talking about.
What kinds of upgrades were Hyena, Jackal and Wolf going to get when they join the Ultra Pack?
I was watching my tape of "The Thrill of the Hunt" some minutes ago, and found myself noticing something (which I may have caught before, but didn't think to mention before now). When Dingo's commenting at the beginning about how soft the Pack's been getting, he says that in his current condition, he wouldn't last over a week in a Central American war. I find that comment rather amusing now, because two of the Pack-members (though Jackal and Hyena, rather than Dingo himself) DO get involved in a sort-of Central American war in "The Green". I don't know if you intended a connection there or not, but I thought that I'd mention it.
At that stage I didn't. No way I could have predicted "The Green" way back then. But who knows. Maybe we were tapping in again...
i have a couple comments on "Her Brother's Keeper" which i just watched...
first of all, i love the trio in the helicopter scene, one of the most fun moments in the series!
my real comment/question is about Hyena in this episode. why are she and Jackal suddenly outlaws, hunting a creature that doesn't legally exist is one thing, but all of a sudden they're stealing (or attempting to steal) the "most valuable stone on Earth", whats that about? oh, it was orders from Fox? i see, didn't Hyena just say, "I don't take orders, brother, not even from you!" then she dutifully follows Fox's orders several times in the episode. i don't get it... these two, particulary Hyena really confuse me and seem to be acting out of character at this point. later on, they escape from prison and so they're already outlaws, so why not rob a bank, but here they are good citizens, even popular citizens, why mess that up on Fox's orders, are they that loyal to her?
They were never good citizens. They were mercenaries hired to portray heroes on tv.
None of what they did, including following orders when it suited their proclivities, seems out of character to me.
i was really surprised how easily Hyena forgives Jackal, i mean he is always calling her sick for falling in lust with Coyote, then in "Grief" Jackal destroys Coyote and makes Hyena a baby, but by "The Green" Hyena happily makes jokes with her brother. it just didn't seem right and it didn't seem like it fit in with the theme of consequences in "Gargoyles"... your thoughts...
Hyena's a freak. Coyote can always be rebuilt. And Jackal and Hyena have always both counted on and sniped at each other.
Sorry for double posting, I just thought of another question. Is one of the reasons why Xanatos was always picking on Goliath is that it gave him a sense of power? You know, as kind of an ego-booster? Is it that the same reason Wolf was always trying to fight Goliath(besides his hatred of him)?
It's in there. But it's also not that simple.
What body parts did Jackal and Hyena sacriface for the upgrade?
Arms and legs mostly. Body mass.
1a) Which race and civilization (or "clan" if they were gargoyles) created the Cauldron of Life? b) Which was the Cauldron made of--mortal, fairy, or some other magic? c) If it was made of mortal magic, did the mortal energies have any adverse effect on Puck when he dipped in his hand (other than the petrification itself), or was he spared any possible additonal effect because he was in mortal form as Owen?
2a) When the Cauldron's iron was reforged into the Coyote robot, was its ability to turn objects to stone lost? b) Did the Cauldron have any magical abilities other than petrification? c) Did the magic in the Cauldron's iron really make it more effective at capturing the Coyote fae, or would regular iron have been just as effective? If the Cauldron was made with mortal magic, did these mortal energies play a part in its effectiveness as a prison for fey?
3) What did Xanatos do with the magical iron after that Coyote robot was disabled?
1a. That's a story in its own right.
1b. Mortal, largely.
1c. No adverse effects on Puck.
2a. Not necessarily.
2b. Not necessarily.
2c. Didn't hurt.
3. Wouldn't you like to know?
i know Xanatos used the Cauldron of Life in Coyote's reconstruction cuz it was iron and would hold Coyote the Trickster, but couldn't he have used any old iron to do this? some may say that Xanatos used the Cauldron so as not to be wasteful, but i think he really was wasting the Cauldron on something that any iron would do. so why did he use the cauldron?
He wasn't taking any chances, I guess. He wanted his robot to not merely be iron, but to be magically powerful.
About Angela: Right after the World Tour, what are her opinions about...
1. He seems all right.
2. She doesn't seem to trustworthy. But at least she's not trying to kill me.
3. He seems all right.
am i correct in these assumptions of what beasts DNA was used to mutate the following characters:
Wolf - wolf
Talon - panther, bat, e. eel
Claw - tiger, bat, e. eel
Fang - couger?, bat, e.eel
Maggie the Cat - lion, bat, e. eel
Yeah, that sounds right. Cougar or Mountain Lion for Fang.
Were Fox, Dingo, Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf using their 'stage' names prior to the Pack's formation?
Fox, maybe. The rest, no.
Are the former members of the Pack (excluding Fox) wanted criminals? Why haven't they been caught yet?
Dingo and Jackal are both wanted in the U.S. But they're out of the country and hard to catch.
Hyena's in prison.
Wolf, I'm not sure about.
Coyote doesn't officially exist.
1) What happened to PM Studios after the arrests?
2) Did the model who was taken hostage by Fox press charges or file suit?
3) How did the PR staff deal with the fallout?
4) What was the public's reaction? The parental backlash against the media's portrayal of violence &c can't have been very pleasant for TV execs.
5) Do the fuzz or Feds know about XE's connections with PMS?
2. Yes. The former.
4. The Pack was immediately cancelled.
5. Potentially, but no one knows that X was behind the Pack's crimes.