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From where did you get the idea for Electro's origin in The Spectacular Spider-Man? Was it the story team's original idea?
I ask because in The Amazing Spider-Man 2, Max Dillon turns into Electro almost the exact same way (gets electrocuted and falls into a vat of special electric eels). I'm interested if the movie blatantly ripped off from the show or if there is some comic book/other source material that you would have gotten this origin idea from.
Thanks - I'm a big fan of your shows, and Star Wars: Rebels seems like it will be pretty great.
We came up with it - probably inspired to some degree from the origin of the mutates in Gargoyles - to fit our Biology 101 theme for that particular arc. But I don't consider what they did in the movie to be a rip-off. Marvel and Sony own everything that was done in The Spectacular Spider-Man, so they can't rip-off themselves. Frankly, I'm glad they liked it. Though I do wish that if they liked it that much, they would have hired me to write the movie. ;)
A few days ago I asked the question about Sevaris & his mutates, and I've been thinking about it, and why I like the idea of multi-animal-mutants as opposed to the single-animal variety.
And Ive decided the answer is this: because it just makes more sense.
I know the real-world reason you gave the Labryinth clan multi-animsl abilties is to make them equatable to Gargoyles...but it is the electric eel explaination that resonated w/me. Yes, a creature with that much going on WOULD need a massive energy source, and spending all day eating large farm animals wouldnt be condusive.
But this logic isnt applied to the latter mutates.
1) an alliagator (or was Thug a crockodile? Im drawing a blank - but either way) already needs to eat a lot, and due to its bulk is verry slow on land. Wouldnt an even bigger alligator need even more food - especially to power a human-sized brain - and be even slower?
2) Its been said that an insect the size of a human would collapse under its own weight due to their bodies being composed of heavy exoskelitons, and having no muscle mass, only tendonds to move their joints. Why does this not apply to the woodlouse mutate?
It seems to me that combining these two at least would solve both of their problems. The alligator DNA would provide the strength the woodlouse would need to move, and since insects requre little energy and move exeptionally fast (compared to larger animals that is, not literally), the woodlouse DNA would compensate for the alligator's problems.
Also, ARE there any plans to give the turtle (technically a tortious, I
belive) ninja training...maby from a mutant rat? (im just pulling your leg hete...sorry...I cant help myself).
1. Yes. Which is something Thug will have to deal with. Isn't that interesting?
2. "It's been said"? I'm not sure what that means. Obviously, Sevarius has made himself an expert in ways that I am not. I'm sure Benny will have what he needs for basic survival. But no one has said that these newly created mutates are going to be warriors. We'll just have to see. Hopefully. Someday.
Hello, Mr. Wiesman,
I have a quick question about Dr. Sevaris and his mutate craetions. First, I'd like to say that even as a child I loved the idea of "mutants" that were composed of several animal species (human, bat, cat, & eel), rather than the simple one animal/human hybrid, like the TMNTs.
I was just wondering why you deviated from that approach with every mutate Sevaris made after the Labyrinth clan?
Now Wolf I can understsnd, seeing as how he was the only willing volunteer, and well, his name is simply "Wolf."
But why simply an alligator mutant, a turtle mutant, a woodlouse mutant, & an armadillo mutant, when a combo of all those animals would lead to mare of a varity in abilities (exept a woodlouse and armadillo wpuld be a bit redundant), and not seem like something that has, literally, been done a dozen times - especially the turtle and aligator mutant in particular. As soon as I saw those two, I thought to myself: "they might as well learn ninjitsu and get it over with."
On a related topic; it's been shown that Dr. Sevaris uses human test subjects to create his mutates. But does he need the actual animal(s) they are mutated into and combine them, or just use that/those animal's DNA?
1. I think during his Labyrinth experiments, he was testing features first. Mixing and matching might come later. Keep in mind, that his marching orders from Xanatos on the original mutates were specifically to create something as close to a Gargoyle as possible.
2. He just needs DNA samples.
Very recently discovered Gargoyles and it's FANTASTIC! I mainlined the entire thing in about a month and can't wait to rewatch it. What an amazing story you told.
I had a question about Talon and the other Mutates. I've searched the archives and haven't been able to find the answer to this specific question, so I hope this isn't a repeat:
When Derek was originally transformed it made sense that he didn't want to go to the police because he still thought Xanatos was working to cure him. But once he realised that Xanatos was behind it all, I'm confused about why he didn't go to the police at THAT point?
I understand that they had come to accept their forms by then, but as a former police officer (even if he had some issues with it as a career for himself), I'm trying to work out why Talon wouldn't want to make the police aware of what had happened. The Mutates themselves are physical evidence of Sevarius' illegal experiments. Even if Xanatos was able to hide the financial trail so it wouldn't be possible to prove he'd been funding Sevarius while he was on the run, then at least the authorities would be after Sevarius?
My assumption is that Xanatos made some sort of report about Sevarius when he originally "discovered" his illegal work (though hiding the existence of the Mutates), so the authorities are already after him, albeit with limited and incorrect information. Without any way to prove Xanatos' ongoing connection, the Mutates decided not to press the matter as they were afraid of being turned into lab rats again if they "went public"?
Would that be accurate? It just surprised me because the show often did talk about police procedure and WHY Xanatos couldn't be charged with things, etc., or characters' motivations that this one's been bugging me.
Thank you for your thoughts, and looking forward to Star Wars: Rebels!
As you surmised...
1. The Mutates, collectively, don't want to become trapped in someone else's lab. Whether it's a government lab or that of another mad scientist.
2. Sevarius has already gone underground.
3. Xanatos covered his tracks.
Hey Greg hope your novel is turning out well I look forward to reading it.Anyway, these questions are about the mutates, clones and Labyrinth Clan.
1). For the most part how do the majority of mutates and humans view the Gargoyle clones? Is it more of a blessing more bodies or a burden because of the lack development and free will?
2). By 2198 how do the mutate members and the gargoyle clone members view each other is it animosity different origins possibly beliefs, respectful because of shared location or have they established a unique culture that blends the various backgraounds of the groups making alot more differnt than your typical Garg clan?
3) You mention that by 2198 the two different clans in NY would have different priorties which is why they did not merge. Is there any animosity from the two clans because of different origins?
4). We know Talon and Maggie can have children but could different members of the mutate group have kids with another like Claw with Lisa despite being mixed with different species DNA?
5). How does the current Manhatten Clan view the Labyrinth "Clan"(not yet a Clan I know) Do they feel like they need to show the Clones and Mutates, Gargoyle customs or is it more like let them find their own way and we'll give advice as needed kind of deal?
1. A mixed blessing, I guess.
2. SPOILER REQUEST.
3. I wouldn't say animosity. But they don't always see things eye to eye.
4. We don't know that. We know Maggie's pregnant. Anything beyond that is a SPOILER REQUEST. (Also, I'm not sure I understand your question... are you trying to mate off Claw with Elisa?)
5. More the latter.
And RAIN OF THE GHOSTS, BOOK TWO: SPIRITS OF ASH AND FOAM is going very well. In fact, I've finished writing it and sent it off to my editor at St. Martin's Press yesterday! Thanks for asking (and for giving me any excuse to pimp it!)
According to the timeline:
September 10th, 1995â"Talon and the other Mutates flee [the Eyrie Building]. (âMetamorphosisâ)
December 10th, 1995. Talon, Maggie the Cat, Fang and Claw return to David Xanatos and take up residence at the Eyrie Building. (more than a week before the events in the âThe Cageâ)
Where did they go in the interim two months?
Why was the appearance of the mutates changed between metamorphosis and the cage? And why were their tails removed?
This has been answered before. Please check the archives under "Mutates, The".
Could humans be turned into Gargoyles by the same process that was used on the mutates? Sevarius didn't say he couldn't do it but that he had no Gargoyle DNA to play around with. Would Gargoyle DNA too complex to use in the same way as the jungle cats, eels etc?
Clearly, you have not been reading the BAD GUYS comic book. So I'll refer you to the Bad Guys trade paperback, due out in August. Enjoy!!
Does Talon have a second-in-command down in the Labyrinth? I know that the Labyrinth members are not part of a true gargoyle Clan but Talon realized he needed to take a stand and be the leader. Is there someone he has chosen (or will chose down the line) to be his second and take over for him when he can no longer lead?
Sorry, I meant Crocodile...not Crodile
Yeah, I got that.
Did Sevarius Mutate Thug with Alligator or Crodile DNA?
First I want to thank you, after getting upset at how DC is treating Captain Carrot at the end of their latest mini-series, it is a joy to see someone "mainstream" create some beautiful furry business in their own comic as issue #7 shows. Thank you for getting an artist who understands that beauty.
Case in point, Maggie has never been more beautiful then when she's snuggling with Derek upon learning she is pregnant. In fact, it looks like she's purring. Is that a correct assumption?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Edward the Confessor dies of natural causes. His brother-in-law, Harold Godwinson, succeeds him.
Goliath, Lexington, Bronx and Brooklyn return to Castle Wyvern atop the Eyrie Building but are intercepted by Elisa Maza, Hudson and Broadway, who finally manage to convince Goliath to follow Elisa to their new home at the Clock Tower above the 23rd Precinct -- but not before Goliath warns Owen Burnett that the clan will some day return. David Xanatos is finally released from jail that morning and returns to the castle. He starts serving his probation. Later that day, Xanatos goes to Gen-U-Tech Systems to observe Anton Sevarius' progress. Sevarius has successfully cloned Goliath and begins to accelerate the growth of "Thailog".
Hudson and the Trio have been searching for Goliath and Bronx to no avail. Broadway, realizing that Elisa Maza is missing too, brings her cat Cagney back to the Clock Tower. Brooklyn resists taking the reins of leadership, but he does go to visit Talon and Maggie the Cat in the Labyrinth, where homeless humans like Al, Chaz and Lou have joined the Mutates in what is supposed to be a free society of outcasts. Broadway visits Matt Bluestone next, but Matt is equally in the dark over his partner's disappearance. Lex eavesdrops on Elisa's parents and learns they are also worried. Meanwhile on Queen Florence Island, Elisa and the gargoyles find each other again, and then find Grandmother as she transforms into the Thunderbird. Grandmother later admits that she was undergoing these transformations to convince Natsilane to take up arms against Raven to save the island. When Natsilane meets the gargoyles, he is convinced. The gargoyles and Natsilane battle Raven and drive him away. With Raven gone, Grandmother is able to heal the island. The travelers again return to Avalon, where it is six in the morning, causing Goliath, Angela and Bronx to turn to stone.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Goliath kidnaps Anton Sevarius out from under the nose of Gen-U-Tech security guard Vinnie Grigori. Goliath takes Sevarius down to the abandoned Cyberbiotics underground lab and tries to force him to create a cure for the Mutates. Meanwhile, the Mutates attack the other gargoyles at the Clock Tower. The gargoyles ultimately win the battle, but Brooklyn lets them go in order to prove to Maggie the Cat that he can be trusted. Having discovered that Goliath was the kidnapper, Elisa Maza, Talon, the Mutates, David Xanatos and his Steel Clan robots all converge on the old lab. Xanatos rescues Sevarius, and Talon finally realizes his employer was responsible for his metamorphosis. Talon and the other Mutates take up residence in the abandoned Cyberbiotics underground base, which they redub "The Labyrinth". The next morning, Vinnie is fired from Gen-U-Tech. And that evening, Elisa brings her parents and sister to the Labyrinth for a reunion with Derek and an introduction to the other Mutates. In Scotland, Xanatos' security team successfully captures "Nessie", a Loch Ness Monster. Sevarius leaves for Scotland, to begin running tests on the creature.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Goliath and Broadway, who aren't in on Elisa Maza's undercover charade, follow her and come close to blowing her cover. She covers, however, and manages to get a meeting with Tony Dracon, where the two of them agree to go into business together with the gargoyles. The gargoyles and cops wind up foiling Dracon's operation and getting him to confess his transgressions on videotape. He's arrested and sent away. Goliath tastes jalapeñas for the first time. Later that morning, Elisa's sister Beth Maza comes into town from Arizona. That evening, while the Trio attend a rock concert in the park, Beth spots Talon watching the Maza family from outside Elisa's window. Later, Goliath admits that he has seen the Mutates back with David Xanatos. Elisa and Goliath confront Talon. Elisa reveals to her brother that Anton Sevarius isn't dead. Talon's extreme stance convinces Goliath to take drastic action.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
On instructions from Captain Maria Chavez, Elisa Maza pretends to be a crooked cop trying to muscle in on Tony Dracon's protection racket. Meanwhile, Goliath spots the Mutates hanging around the Eyrie Building. He elects not to tell Elisa.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Talon, Maggie the Cat, Fang and Claw return to David Xanatos and take up residence at the Eyrie Building.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The gargoyles take Maggie back to the Clock Tower, but she flees to Xanatos after they turn to stone. Elisa and Matt discover that Xanatos owns Gen-U-Tech. After sundown, the gargoyles awaken and discover Maggie gone. The gargoyles and Elisa confront the Mutates and Xanatos at the Eyrie Building. Although Derek takes the name Talon, Elisa realizes that the Mutate is her brother. Talon and the other Mutates flee.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Sevarius completes his involvement with Thailog's project and is paid off. Thailog begins programming his new clones. Meanwhile, Angela and Demona are still debating the latter's behavior. Claw arrives to take over guarding the prisoners for the day shift. Angela elects to sleep as stone in front of her mother's cell.
I just saw the reckoning episode again, and a few questions come out.
Fang said to Demona that he "always respect her as a fellow inmate" Is that true? What were his true feelings for her. I imagine they had some fights...having in count the personallities of the two of them...
Did Demona know the mutates before she saw them in the laberynt?
What did she think about them? Would they talk when they were guarding her? Did she speak with anyone besides Angela?
Did she gain weight after so many days of not doing any exercise?? >:I
I have to stop drinking. Thks for your attention Greg :)
1. I'll leave that to your imagination.
2. Not well.
3. I'll leave that to your imagination.
4. I refuse to comment (because I like my spleen).
Once Talon/Derek Maza discovered that Xanatos (and not Goliath) was Sevarius' partner in his transformation why didn't he try to kill him? I do not mean during the episode "The Cage" since he was clearly outgunned but in future episodes. He originally planned to kill Goliath and Sevarius so once he realized that Xanatos and Sevarius was behind it all why didn't he kill him? After all it was his original intention, he had nothing to lose from it, he knew he could not trust either Xanatos or Sevarius to him a cure for him assuming that he even wanted it and as indicated in "The Cage" he stopped caring for a cure.
I think calmer heads (not necessarily Talon's) finally prevailed. Maggie has her influence.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The Manhattan Clan imprisons Demona in the Labyrinth and agrees to help Talon and the Mutates guard her and Fang. Angela takes the first watch. Elisa is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples her DNA. Demona regains consciousness in her cell. Angela introduces herself.
First off, I'd like to thank you for including strong female characters in Gargoyles. To this day, there aren't enough out there in cartoons/anime or comics/manga. It's expecialy pleasing to me because, being female, I've had to fight off the 'weaker gender' stereotype all my life! In martial arts class, a boy refused to 'contact spar' with me when our master told us to. Why? Because he'd "Never hit a girl and wasn't going to start now." Him being my friend, that stung a bit; but him being my friend was also what kept me from kicking him through the wall. Characters like Elisa, Angela and Demona made Maggie the Cat tollerable. Which, by the way, is the subject of my post.
I neither love nor hate Maggie. I suppose I sort of like her though, at least she's not exactly a coward. But she irritates me a little, she refuses to fight even though she can, she's easily frightened, she didn't react well to the gargoyles after they saved her, ect. I don't really know what Talon sees in her. Maybe you could tell me? And I have a couple more questions.
1. Does Maggie accept her Mutate form by the time of 'Masque'? She seems okay, but I'm not sure.
2. Do the Mutates have tails or not? Comics #3 and #4 have conflicting art. Are their tails retractable?
What does Talon see in her... perhaps a strength that she didn't at first realize she had, a strength that has nothing to do with COMBAT. And is this the Grey Wolf, who coincidentally PLAYED Maggie in the Radio Play last night? (If so, please know that I had not read this when we cast you.)
1. More or less.
2. <sigh> The tails are constantly mutating, I guess... <sigh>
"Which members of the Pack?"
Okay, to elaborate slightly less than before on my Pack/Mutates question (as as far as I can tell, mentioning my rationale sounded too much like an idea, hence its deletion)...
Did The Pack - asking about every member here; I guess Fox would be a safe bet, all things considered, but other than her - know about the Mutates while they were together? Do any of them now?
With the exception of Fox, and perhaps Coyote, I'd say no. Information is power. Why would Xanatos share power with Dingo, Jackal, Hyena or Wolf?
Hi there! Im having these proyect in college, im studing programming computers and im planning to do some kind of video game (with no monetary gain of course, just for the proyect ;)) about the gargoyles and maybe you could give me your opinion in one of the things i have planned so far :)
Its going to be like a Mortal Combat video game, with fights between the character. Here are a few questions, (i really want to do it as much accuretly as possible)
So far the only gargoyle able to defeat Demona in a one by one fight is Bronx, so can i considered him physicaly stronger than the rest of the gargoyles (except Goliath, i guess)
Wich of the gargoyles have the best skills in gliding?
Who is faster when gliding?
Are the mutates better on the air than the gargoyles?
Well those are my little doubts, the rest i can take it from the show. Thanks again for your time, Greg, and gargoyles comic 4 was just AWESOME :D
I'm not big on quantifying things, but the Mutates can fly and the gargoyles can only glide.
Was either Fang, Claw, Maggie, or Talon in Manhattan during present-day events of City of Stone?
I'm not saying.
Hey there, fairly recent fan of the series, first-time asker. One question (so far) that I've been curious about - is The Pack aware of The Mutates' existence?
Which members of the Pack?
I've been watching the DVDs and have recently been intrigued by the characters of Claw and Fang, mainly because we don't really know *who* these characters actually are! They are introduced to the series with their human identities hidden (both in physical terms and by giving them aliases). These guys could be anyone! (Claw especially is full of potential considering he can't speak).
I know that asking you who they were in their human forms would be pointless, so I'll try to dodge that question with some others:
1. Will their true identities be important or some sort of plot-twist? (Like the Owen/Puck connection)
2. Did you know who they really are when the show started, or is it an opening in the overall story that you included so you could work on it later? (again, I compare with Owen/Puck; you've said that you didn't know at first that the two were one and the same, but realised the connection soon afterwards).
3. If one, or both of their true identities are important, have there been any hints in the course of the series in character dialogue or situation?
4. Were they approached for the experiment in the same way that Maggie was, or was there something different in how Doctor Sevarius enlisted them?
5. Was there a reason why you decided that Claw would not be able to speak? (that is, to keep his identity secret? Or were you just trying to save money on a voice actor!)
Thank you very much for any answers you give (or decide *not* to give, I know I may be treading on thin ice asking these questions!)
1. Important, yes. Plot-twist, not really.
2. No, I know who they are now. But I didn't when "Metamorphosis" was scripted. Though I knew what direction I wanted to head with each.
3. Not really, actually.
4. More or less the same.
5. Two reasons: 1. economic as you noted, and 2. I genuinely thought it would make him a more interesting character.
THREE POSTS IN ONE DAY!!!! Im on a role (hopefully a cinnamon 'role' ;) ...haha a play on words!
Why am I posting soooooooo many...well, posts? Well, you said that you would close the question asking thingy for a while (probably a long while) after January and I just want to hurry and talk to you. (I LIKE YOU!!!).......(Not in THAT way....sickos.) When February comes around, you wont have to deal with my farce anymore, at least for a while.......(snickering).......I typed farce...(snickering)
I have some questions about Lexington.
1. Why dose Lexington walk on his heals sometimes? (He has VERY flexible hips to sit the way he sits)
2. Why did you (they) end his wing membranes at his knees instead at his ankles?
3. Who was Lex's favorite Pack member?
I don't know why, but I just thought about Fang and his voice actor......I really like Jim's performance as Fang! Also, I wonder how Fangs old co-workers thought of him?
I wonder why the animators couldn't get his height right, some times he's right other times, he's the size of a 10 year old....oh well, he still looks good.
P.S. my next one will be rambles about episodes so.....it will be BIG....pre-warning you.....but not today!
1. I'm not sure what you mean.
2. It looked right anatomically, I think.
3. Uh... to slaughter?
I don't remember Fang ever looking like a ten-year-old, but I agree that Jim was great in the role.
1. After "Metamorphosis", where did the Mutates go before "The Cage"?
2. Did they had any adventures or was it just daily struggles to eat/sleep/shelter/hide?
3. Did they met aynone?
4. Did they contribute, intentionally or not, to the gargoyle urban legend?
5. Was there other reasons than the cure that made them return to Xanatos?
1. Off stage.
2. All of the above.
5. Nothing is without its complexities.
Have you ever done any research into the physics oh how the Mutates can "shoot" those electric "blasts" from their hands? As in, to see if it's even possible for electricity to behave in such a way?
No, I have not. Have you?
Will Talon/Derek ever turn bacdk to human? If so what will his response be to Elisa about choosing to work for Xanatos in the first place?
I'm not sure why his response would be any different before or after he might or might not turn back?
love the show(obviously) but i have a question, if Fang was cooped up with demona for at least five weeks by the day that it showed on screen demona changing form, why did he looked so shocked when she turned human?
I don't think he looked shocked. It may have taken him five weeks to come up with a funny line.
Not sure if you have answered this but if you have I am sorry to have repeated it. In TGC and by the end of the original show that you worked on it is shows that Xanatos has reformed now that he has Alexander.
1) Is he really reformed or is it just another ploy of his?
2) Why didn't he have the mutates turned back into humans if he was?
3) Would the mutates want to be turned back into humans? Being mutates let's them to help others better than when they were human.
4) Why did Xanatos's go after Derek to make him into Talon? I know that it was not some vindictive plan of his against Elisa since you have mentioned before that he isn't the sort to seek vengeance on someone.
1. He hasn't reformed, but his priorities have shifted somewhat. He certainly feels kindly toward the Gargoyles, though that would never stop him from using them -- just from harming them.
2. I don't think he can.
3. Fang does not want to turn back. I think Talon, and maybe even Maggie and Claw have accustomed themselves as well. Though if presented with an actual bona fide opportunity to change back, it would be interesting to see if they took it.
4. Control. And means of control.
Here's hoping you've got your timeline with you.
In honor of the birth of my first son, could you please share some of the events that have happened in the gargoyles universe on September 10?
Sure. Hold on. I'll be right back.
I literally have just flipped through every page of the timeline. This is the ONLY entry I found for that specific date:
Sunday, September 10th, 1995
The Gargoyles take Maggie back to the Clock Tower, but she flees to Xanatos' Castle after they turn to stone. Elisa and Matt discover that Xanatos owns Gen-U-Tech. After sundown, the Gargoyles awaken and discover Maggie gone. The Gargoyles and Elisa confront the Mutates and Xanatos at the Castle. Although Derek takes the name Talon, Elisa realizes that the Mutate is her brother. Talon and the other Mutates flee.
Congratulations (two years late) on the birth of your son, by the way!
Could Elisa have told the chief of police about her brother's condition after Metamorphosis or The Cage?
Obviously, she could have. But she didn't.
HELLO THERE I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT THE NAME OF THE CHARACTER( THE GARGOYLE THAT LOOKS LIKE A PANTHER'S)NAME IS?AND IF YOU HAVE ANY PICTURES OF HIM. I WOULD REALLY APPRICIATE IT I'VE BEEN WATCHING THE CARTOON BUT I STILL HAV'NT SEEN HIM. I ONLY SAW IT ONCE AND I LIKED THAT CHARACTER. THANKS
I assume you're talking about Talon, who wasn't a gargoyle at all, but a mutate, i.e. a human being (Derek Maza) who was transformed into a creature by mad science.
I don't have access to pictures, but I know they're available on the web. Ask around at the Station 8 Gargoyles Comment room.
Hi Greg. Long-winded question, so bear with me.
One of the recurring themes of Western story-telling is that those who "tamper in God's domain", to borrow a phrase, will be struck down for their hubris. After the enterance of Frankenstein into our collective consciousness, one of the "rules" for Western literature is that Frankenstein must always be destroyed by his monster, for his arrogance in playing god.
The reason I bring this up, is that Xanatos is a man who seems to like playing god. And he has left a trail of monsters in his wake.
I'll ignore Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf for the purposes of this question, since it could be argued that they were already monsters who merely allowed their exteriors to be altered to match their true natures. (Although, it could also be argued that those three were tempted by David and his offers of power and vengeance, but at the end of the day, I still think they all damned themselves willingly)
I'd go so far as to even ignore the mutates, because even though they become monsterous looking, they really don't fit the bill as "monsters". They're just ordinary people who, by virtue of making some bad character judgements, find themselves with fur and wings. (Although it probably doesn't help Xanatos' karma any)
But even ignoring those two examples, you still have...
1. Coldstone. Such an obvious Frankenstein archtype that you joked about it. (The "It's alive! ALLLLLLLIVE!" sequence remains one of my favorites from the whole show) Of course, you could lay Coldstone at least partially at Demona's feet as well, so we'll move on.
2. Thailog. Grown in a lab, created with a mixture of different people, (Goliath's body and temper, Xanatos' mind and ethics, Sevarius'... libedo? Whatever accounts for Delilah) he turns almost immediately on his "fathers" You could call Thailog Sevarius' creature rather then Xanatos' except that David is the force behind his creation, and that Anton, for all his mad scientist posturing, could be seen as no more then a lab assistant, an Igor to David's Dr. Frankenstein.
3. The Coyote robot series. Xanatos' most personal "creature", the one to whom he gave his face (well, half of it) and voice. Loyal (?) to David for now, but unless forming the Ultrapack is David's idea, he presumably goes indepentant eventually. That, and we know he sets his sights on galactic domination in 2198, presumably not with his creator's blessing. (Then again, I could be wrong)
4. The Matrix. Created so that David and Fox could reshape the entire planet at their whim. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. Admittedly, I don't think it's becoming sentient along the way was part of the plan, and it's inclusion here might be a bit of a stretch, but I thought it was an example of Xanatos' hubris, if nothing else.
So, I guess, after all that lead up, my question is this: Would the pattern hold true? Would one (or all) of Xanatos' "creatures" come back to bite him in the ass later? As Elisa said "I wouldn't want Xanatos' karma."
There is a second part to this question, but I'll submit it separately, in case it's viewed as an idea.
Well, for starters, I'd argue your premise. Victor Frankenstein's life was certainly decimated by the monster he created and abandoned -- but he survived the experience, sadder and hopefully wiser.
Moreover, it was the abandonment that was his true sin in Mary Shelley's original work. The creation was certainly hybris. But Shelley is pretty darn clear that she viewed the abandonment as worse. And I tend to agree. It's nature vs. nurture. The creature wasn't created evil. He was driven to it.
As to X's karma and whether it will all come back to bite him in the ass, I think the answer is clearly yes. But I really see it as a separate question. That is, it is a karma question more than simply a playing god question. That's one element. But only one. After all, one might argue that David and Fox were playing god by bringing Alexander into the world. But I wouldn't argue that. And I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
So let's go through the numbers.
I tend to agree that Wolf, Hyena and Jackal built their own cages. And for the record, seem quite happy to live in them.
The Mutates seem to be following the same path as the gargoyles themselves. That is to say, that Xanatos woke the gargoyles, and has often suffered for it since. He then turned these four humans into mutates, and has had to suffer a bit (though admittedly not much) for that. It will be interesting to see Talon's post-Hunter's Moon reaction to Goliath and Co. moving back into the Castle. But the larger truth is that Talon, Maggie and Claw are making lives for themselves.
1. Coldstone. Well, yeah, duh. This is our Frankenstein's monster. But as with most things, Xanatos is too smart to truly follow in Victor's footsteps. He helps create the creature -- and certainly uses it -- but he never simply abandons it. And he also tries to balance (or bury) the Karmic scales, by helping out with Coldstone's Multiple Personality Disorder and by building Coldsteel and Coldfire.
2. Thailog. Here's the big threat, frankly. A guy with something to prove and three fathers to prove it all to. I think Xanatos hasn't seen the last of Thailog. One could argue that Thailog is the only guy to ever beat Xanatos at his own game (in Double Jeopardy). So the hybris of creating him has already bitten X's ass. But I doubt Thailog is through.
3. Coyote... I just don't want to reveal too much on this right now. Sorry.
4. I really think you have to chalk Matrix up to Fox's hybris (and competitive spirit) rather than to David's. She was certainly having the Matrix engineered for her and her man, but that doesn't mean that Xanatos was behind it. That would assume that she cannot operate independently. And I sure as heck wouldn't assume that about her.
So the short answer: yes. But it's all very nuanced.
I don't know if you've answered this cuz I can't seem to find it, but what are Fang's and Claw's real names?
I haven't revealed Fang's real name yet. And in fact, I don't know Claw's real name. I've got it in my head that that is something we never learn.
If given the chance to revive the Gargoyles series, what role would you personally give to these mostly underused and/or underrated characters:
1. Fang- My favorite character, I wonder if he would be given the chance to become one of the typical " one-liner spitting good guy with bad attitude" character (something I would like) or become a mayor villain.
2. Maria Chavez- Would she ever meet the gargoyles?
Also, I would like to know how old Talon, Maggie, Claw and Fang are.
What follows is not meant to be all-inclusive, but just a sampling of my plans...
1. Fang was destined to join "BAD GUYS". That is he was forced to either join Bad Guys or serve a life sentence in prison. He chose the former. For more info on BAD GUYS see the Bad Guys Archive here at ASK GREG, or come to next year's GATHERING in Montreal to see the Bad Guys' story reel for yourself.
2. Ever's a long time. But I had no immediate plans to change either her position or her role within the show. We would have learned more about her home life though, including her daughter.
3. Claw would have remained a mainstay in the Labyrinth, though he also would likely have guest-starred in BAD GUYS.
4. Wolf would have joined the Ultra-Pack.
5. Delilah would also have remained in the Labyrinth. She and Goliath would attempt to "date", but it wouldn't work out.
Finally, my timeline shows the following birth years:
Claw - 1954
Fang - 1968
Talon - 1970
Maggie - 1975
>> Hey Greg,
Just out of curiousity(I hope to what ever god/dess that I spelled that right.) I was wondering why Sevarius did gene splicing to make the Mutates? I watched this thing on one of the educational channels and it said that humans have little bits of DNA from every animal in their DNA codes. So, why didn't Sevarius just activate the exsting genes in them? Or, did he by that gene splicing?
Well off to homework, "yeah".
Anyone with a scientific background want to field this? Come up with an explanation that justifies what we put into the show?
Be my guest. <<
I believe that the reasoning here would be that as humans we contain DNA that is very similar to the DNA found in amimals (like proteins that have the same structure) but we don't contain the DNA of every animal per se. It may look like we do but that is just because of similarity of structure or similar proteins in our bodies. Sevarius spliced animal DNA to the mutates based upon which section of the animals DNA controlled a certain trait. But putting these DNA samples into their systems they eventually became grafted onto their own DNA structures, mutating the DNA, and causing their appearances to change in order to resemble their now changed genetic code.
I hope that helps Greg!
It does. Thanks, Joe. See, gang, the fans are always your first and best resource.
i have a suspicion that you'll prefer to keep the answers to these questions in mystery, but i'll ask anyway:
1. was the "cure" that Sevarius created in "Metamorphosis" an actual cure for the mutation?
2. was the "cure" that Sevarius created in "The Cage" an actual cure for the mutation?
3. will an actual "cure" for the mutation ever be created?
2. Not saying.
3. See above.
i recently saw on the Discovery Channel a show about the Electric Eel. it said that a healthy adult Electric Eel can deliver shocks of 700 volts, and i was wondering if the Mutates were capable of shocking with more or less than 700 volts? how many volts do you think?
Matt, matt, you're not really asking me a numbers question, are you?
Dude, you should no better.
This is about the Light bulb contest, well more correctly the incident itself.
Fang was cracking at gargoyles right, I suppose thier intelligence or whatever. Why was Demona seemingly unoffended by that? While Goliath was atleast perhaps annoyed.
It's possible that Demona had other things on her mind at that moment and wasn't paying attention.
It's possible, as Demona had been caged up beside Fang for weeks and weeks that she was long past the point of reacting to every damn thing he said. (Since any adult knows that reacting to an immature person saying stupid stuff is the best way to encourage that immature person to continue.)
1. Why is Claw always mute? Who would be hired to do his voice if it was ever decided he would talk?
2. Did Elisa ever meet Delilah?
3. What are Fang and Claw's real names?
1. Trauma. Claw's never going to talk as far as I'm concerned. His muteness is fundamental to his character.
3. I honestly haven't given them real names yet, because it hasn't been necessary. But they do have real names.
in the labyrinth clan, who would be considered second after Talon?
I don't think they are currently organized that way at this time. Ironically, by default, the answer might be Maggie. But I don't think it's formalized.
Time to get back to rambling...
Well, we've had our adventure in Avalon and made a couple stops on what I knew was going to be a long trip. Time to check in on the home front.
Only trouble is, as these things originally aired, this one actually didn't manage to get broadcast right here. It just wasn't ready in time, and we had enough trouble airing reruns without holding up episodes that were ready to go just because this one wasn't. And besides it was all part of Tier Four. So we couldn't justify waiting for it.
Still. Out of the 66 eps I was involved in, only two aired out of order. "The Price" aired too soon. "Kingdom" aired too late.
Hope it didn't screw too much with your sense of continuity.
Oh, by the way, Kingdom was
Directed by Bob Kline
Story Edited by Gary Sperling
Written By Marty Isenberg & Robert Skir
KINGDOM (BROOKLYN & TALON)
The title, I believe, was another one of my one word 'theme' titles. It refers, of course, to the newly established kingdom of the Labyrinth and who and how it will be ruled. Can any organization exist without leadership? Or will a power vacuum by nature be filled by something, positive or negative?
We have in this show two reluctant leaders. Brooklyn and Talon. Ironically, Talon seems to have no problem asserting himself to lead -- especially among the Gargoyles in the void of Brooklyn's unleadership. He wants the authoritiy of leadership without the responsiblilty that comes with actually having the title.
Brooklyn feels a burden of leadership that's two-fold. On the one hand, he feels like acknowledging his role as leader is a betrayal of Goliath. Like he's giving up on finding his older brother. On the other hand, he feels intimidated by trying to fill Goliath's shoes (assuming Goliath wore shoes).
He's specializing in 'avoidance' or as Kent Brockman would say, "Avoision".
"Why are you looking at me?"
"Stop asking me that. I don't know."
Everyone else is actually working on the missing Goliath/Bronx/Elisa problem. Brooklyn isn't even doing that, because any action risks being misinterpreted as leadership.
So throughout, Hudson uses psychology to gently nudge Brooklyn into the right mental space.
Guess he'll go to the Labyrinth to ask Elisa's brother if he's seen her. Might see Maggie there....
Suddenly Brooklyn is volunteering. For the wrong reasons, of course, but Hudson has at least gotten him started. Moved him from active to passive.
Is fun in this. Didn't want to leave the poor cat alone for months now, did we? I like how Broadway and Hudson care for him. How the cat reacts, sleeping on Hudson's head, when Hudson wakes up. How he reacts to Maggie the (other) Cat. How Hudson, quietly admits just how much he loves Bronx in Cagney's presence.
AL, CHAS and ?
I like these guys. They're well characterized in just a few little bits.
Al's the homeless guy that Fang harrasses. Chas and his buddy (who's name I didn't catch this time through -- though I know I have it written down at the office) are Fang's cronies.
Jeff Bennett (as Chas' buddy) is very funny describing their discovery to Fang.
There's a brief moment at the end, where it looks like Lex and BW might be smashing these two guys heads in with rocks. But we pull back and see they're really smashing the guns. I don't think we'd get away with even the tease of that in the current S&P atmosphere.
I wonder where they went after Talon chased them out. Can't help thinking they were naturals to join the Quarrymen.
And how's Al doing?
FANG & CLAW
I love Belushi as Fang. (He's got a great growl that's a sound effect, but it works great with Belushi's stuff.) My wife Beth thought Jim was too over the top. But I think he's hilarious.
He's got a bunch of great lines:
"...Flying bug zappers."
"Now wouldn't that be a crying shame."
"Open the door, Fang. Protect the weak, Fang."
"There's a new Sheriff in town."
Talon: "You and what army?"
Fang: "This army, pal. And you're our first prisoner of war." (Though technically Talon is the second, since Maggie's already trapped in the gun chamber.)
My nearly eight-year-old-daughter Erin asked, "Is he greedy or jealous?" Both, probably.
And he is bright enought to trick Talon.
And Claw is just a love. Charming in his silence. He really comes into his own in this ep, you know?
Incidentally, this year "Kingdom" made the fan's top ten favorite episodes, alongside such others as: "Hunter's Moon, Parts One, Two and Three," "The Mirror," "Future Tense," and others.
I was a bit surprised. Most of the other ten look a hell of a lot better than this one. It's a tribute to Brooklyn's popularity probably, but also, I think to Claw.
There's great fun throughout with that darn key card. Fang trying to bust into the gun chamber initially. Being so frustrated, and Claw just lowering the card in front of him.
"Give me that!" Fang says and grabs it.
Later, after Maggie's escaped, and Fang regains consciousness to find out what happened, Claw does his intentionally indecipherable pantomime schtick. And Fang simply repeats: "Give me that!"
The scene with Broadway and Matt is oddly animated. Looks briefly like it's from some other show. But there's something strangely cool about the animation, even though it's off.
Erin said, "I like Maggie. She's very..." But she didn't complete the sentence. Even with prompting from both Beth and myself. She just liked her, I guess.
Maggie begs Claw to let her out. So that she can join the fight? No. So that she can get help. That's Maggie's version of bravery. And I'm not knocking it. Frankly, it's what we teach our kids. You don't teach them to enter dangerous situations. You teach them to go get help. Dial 911. Maggie will never be a warrior, though she has the power for it. It's just not who she is. Normally, that might bug me. But this was a show with so many strong warrior female types, that I liked having the variety.
But this episode doesn't happen to have any of those strong female types like Elisa or Angela or Fox or even Demona. Did it bother anyone that Maggie was the only woman depicted and that she never participated in battle?
Maggie does get to shine in an area that comes more natural to her. Acting. She figures out at the end what Brooklyn is up to, and then performs her heart out to keep Fang in the dark, as she releases Derek. Well, I've always said she came from Ohio to make it in NYC as an actress...
She and Talon are now even more firmly established as a couple. Even in Brooklyn's mind. Finally, he adjusts and moves on.
XANATOS & OWEN
Hey, how about that new security system, installed as a result of Thailog's 'kidnapping' in Double Jep. Doesn't it... SUCK??!!!!!
The cannons do WAY more damage to X's castle than to anyone or anything else. And I also felt like we had done this before at Mac's place in Lighthouse and the Price.
So this is just weak. A failure on our part to come up with something stronger, more original, etc. We needed some action around now. But I still wish we had cracked this better.
There are some fun moments, if not always for the right reasons...
There's a comedy WAY off-model Broadway riding the exploding cannon.
There's a couple gargs falling through X's ceiling.
And it leads into a fun scene...
Owen's stone fist use (though a great idea) is actually a touch feeble, but X is in rare form...
Xanatos: "Do I really need an excuse to have a good time in my own home?"
And Xanatos: "A man has to make a living."
And Xanatos again: "I wasn't aware I needed permission."
Of course, on my tape that effect is spoiled when he suddenly goes cross-eyed. I'm hoping that's a retake that got corrected after the first airing.
Finally, after the debacle at X's place (which winds up being less of a debacle since we never figured out an episode that would show how X would take advantage of the info he learned) and after Maggie's plea for help (Brook could never resist a damsel in distress), Brooklyn finally takes up the role of Leader. Reluctantly.
Brooklyn: "This has nothing to do with what I want."
Hud: "Is that an order then."
Brook: "Yeah, I guess it is." Then look at him right there. That's a hero, am I right?
And Erin says, "Funny. All the leaders have long hair."
And so Brooklyn can't avoid leadership...
"Yeah, try as I might."
And he and Talon shake hands, as both accept the roles destiny has thrusted upon them. It looks good on them.
And that's my ramble. Where's yours?
I saw an episode of Batman: the animated Series (not the future one) and saw a rather intresting episode which involved Catwoman being turned into a cat-woman and it also involved a genetically enginnered cat which looked like Talon oh and the worst thing was that the guy who did all this looked exactly Sevarius. Hmmm... i don't know when it was made but i wonder if they nicked the look of the guy from gargoyles. or perhaps everyone thinks made doctors look like red headed lab guys?
I think great minds think alike. But I think they were our way before we were. So although I don't think we copied them, they certainly didn't copy us.
For ASK GREG and the DCV, here's my ramble on "The Cage"...
Director: Dennis J. Woodyard
Story Editor: Brynne Chandler Reaves
Writer: Lydia C. Marano
We'd seen a photo of Beth Maza before, but this was the first time we actually met her.
This is also, arguably, Vinnie's first real appearance. We'd heard his voice before, and we later decided that he had appeared two or three times before. But here was the inspirational moment. The character that we fell in love with, that went on to STAR in "Vendettas" and "The Journey". Throughout our viewing of the episode, my wife kept asking who did this voice, who did that voice? Every single time, I answered "Jeff Bennett." Then at the end, she asked: "Who's voicing Maggie? Don't tell me it's Jeff." For the record, it's Kath Soucie.
And here's the first real characterization for Fang & Claw as well. Fang was voiced by Jonathan Frakes for his one line in "Metamorphosis". But we cast Jim Belushi to play Mr. Obnoxious from this point out. I fell in love with Jim's take on Fang. His performance alone was one of the big inspirations for BAD GUYS. He's got some great lines:
--"Cat got your tongue... don't you get it?"
--"Like you're some kind of expert on evil monsters!"
--"I'll have to clear my social calendar."
Note also, to save money, Diane Maza never speaks. This episode had a huge cast. Making Claw a mute was a fun way to save money.
LITTLE THINGS I LIKE:
--Elisa refers to her brother as Derek. Goliath uses the word Talon.
--I love how Xanatos says: "Goliath and Elisa are always welcome here." He's so slick. He's far from in control in this episode. But he never stops playing the various characters against each other. He's constantly adjusting to new information. Never flustered.
--I like how Sev is basically talking to himself in his cage. With only the growling monster for feedback. Amazing how much one can gleen from a growl.
--Broadway praises the concert music simply by virtue of it's volume.
--Brooklyn's line: "I'm not a man. I'm a gargoyle." And don't you forget it.
Goliath kidnapping Sev and withholding info from Elisa to 'spare her pain', presiges his behavior in "Eye of the Storm".
Maggie is interesting to me in this. Though she's never going to be an action hero -- we intentionally didn't want to make her a strong female, because it seemed like every other female in the show was strong -- she seems to come into her own a bit here. She speaks her mind. She wields some power over Derek, even if she doesn't realize it. She's still stronger than she gives herself credit for. (Geez, I must suck at weak women characters.)
Although it's not used in the body of this episode, in the credits we refer to Maggie as "Maggie the Cat" for the first time. A Tennessee Williams "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" reference.
Lots of 'em. The recap. And TWO separate internal flashbacks in the show. I'm trying to remember if the board was short or if we just really felt like this was a tough story to get if you didn't have a TON of back-info.
Elisa even has a line, that I think works pretty well, where she's imagining telling her family about Derek -- and in one quick speech, she spews out all the pertinent details. We were clearly nervous about this episode being able to stand alone. Did anyone else have problems with this? Particularly anyone who saw this one without having seen "Metamorphosis" already?
When you see Maggie in flashback, book-ended by her current appearance, you can really see how different the designs were between "Metamorphosis" and "The Cage". I greatly prefer the later designs. Though I think I miss the tails.
--Throughout the episode, I have numerous problems where identities seem to me to be given away before I want them to be given away.
In the opening scene, we want the audience to think that the snooping winged creature is Goliath. But there are two problems. One is all the Talon scenes in the "Previously on Gargoyles..." recap. The second is that we get too clear a glimpse of Talon.
Later, Goliath kidnaps Sevarius and holds him captive. But we wanted the audience to think it's Talon. But again, I think we get glimpses of Goliath that are just too clearly Goliath.
The concept of seeing a character "in shadows" or in partial "silhouette" just seemed tough to get across the ocean and back with our production team on this ep.
Did anyone think that Talon had kidnapped Sev? Was anyone shocked when it was revealed that Goliath was the kidnapper?
--On my tape, Anton's briefcase mispells his name: SERVARIUS. I hope that was corrected for later airings. I hope.
--The scene between Talon and X in the latter's office is clunky. The cityscape visible through X's window looks to be painted onto the window. And Talon's footsteps are very labored and clunky.
Xanatos admits that Sev's original "Metamorphosis" cure was just a placebo. If we stop here, then Talon should stop being angry at Goliath. Goliath neither killed Sev nor did he destroy a viable cure, nor did he have any impact on Talon's chance at a cure. But at this point, Talon's blinded by rage.
There's some really nice animation of Brooklyn and Fang climbing through the air.
My daughter Erin thought that Fang looked more wolf-like than cat-like.
She also figured out pretty fast that Goliath was the kidnapper. And when it was revealed she said, "I knew it all along."
Brooklyn acts as leader in Goliath's absense. But we don't have anyone comment on it. That was just in case this episode wound up airing before "Upgrade". I think Brook makes some wise moves here though. I also like his emotional resonance with Maggie: "You know I wanted to be your... friend."
I also like when he refers to her "persecution complex". Is he projecting?
We re-intro Cyberbiotics Underground Lab from the pilot, in preparation to turning it into the Labyrinth.
I like Goliath and Elisa's exchange in the lab. Lines like:
G: "You were in so much pain."
E: "Who would we test it on?"
E: "The ends can't justify the means. That's Xanatos' way. Not yours."
Other cool lines:
Fang: "I like this body."
Maggie: "Is your vengeance more important than our humanity?" The ultimate question to put to anyone pursuing vengeance.
Xanatos: "You always over-play your hand, Anton." Anton's just a ham to the core.
Xanatos: "He's the scientist. You're just the experiment."
Xanatos: "Hello, Goliath. Didn't even notice you there."
(X is so cool.)
Talon finally, finally figures out what Elisa has been trying to tell him since "Her Brother's Keeper". Took long enough. This arc for Talon was something we had been planning out as far back as our original unsold first dramatic over-pitch to Eisner. Back when Talon was both Scientist and experiment, and the character (created by Fred Schaefer) was known as Catscan.
I like Talon & Maggie's relationship. Don't know if they ever would have gotten together as humans. But they are so natural with each other as Mutates.
Talon: "We're not strong alone. We're strong together."
Goliath verbalizes here that Elisa is part of the clan.
Talon has his own clan (the Mutates) and his own family (the Mazas). The Mazas learn about the Mutates and are reunited with their son. But Goliath is hiding behind the curtain. Elisa's still not ready to share that secret.
Ending: Contrast this (relatively) upbeat ending with the endings from "Metamorphosis" where Elisa is left in tears and "Her Brother's Keeper" where she is left alone in the snow and wind. Things are looking up.
And, of course, we end on the image of the open cage door. That was important to me, because the cage was never more than a metaphor. We didn't really need it for Sevarius. We needed to see that Maggie and Talon were in cages of their own making. (Sev too, really. And Goliath. And maybe Elisa, although now I'm stretching it.)
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
In prep for a ramble on "The Cage", here is the memo that I wrote to Brynne Chandler Reaves on Lydia Marano's 1st draft outline...
Notes on "The Cage" Outline...
Brynne, call me when you get these.
I hate to sound like a broken record but this begins too slow. I've tried not to write a whole new story. But I have condensed things -- moving the kidnapping up into the first act, etc.
A secondary problem that only occurred to me Sunday is that we have to re-introduce Talon to our audience before we begin to misdirect them into thinking that Talon is the kidnapper. Otherwise, they'll see the silhouette of a big guy with wings and correctly guess that the kidnapper is Goliath. (When the story begins, Talon will have only appeared in one other episode; Goliath will have been in at least 25.) Talon won't even enter their minds until he is re-introduced later in the first act. By that time, we'll need to change their mind regarding the kidnapper's identity. A difficult task, considering that the audience already would have assumed the truth.
MUTATE rather than MUTANT.
At start of story... Goliath is to Talon what Xanatos is to Elisa.
THEME: Cages of all kinds. Use every opportunity to reinforce it.
Need to make sure that in the first two acts, we've set up Maggie's desperate need for a cure. But more importantly, we must set up the warm interdependent relationship between Maggie and Talon. Need to believe their feelings for each other are real before we get to Act Three.
I. Maza Family Dinner. Beth spots winged creature at window.
II. Clock Tower. Elisa talks to Goliath.
A. She hates to lie to her family about Derek.
1. Even if it's just a lie by omission.
B. By the way, G has to be more careful. Beth spotted him.
1. Wasn't me, Goliath says.
2. One of the other gargs? G doesn't think so.
3. Elisa's very excited. Could it be Derek?
4. Goliath is quiet. Deciding what to do.
C. G reveals to E that Talon and Mutates are back w/Xanatos.
1. Last few weeks, he's seen them near Eyrie Building.
2. Didn't tell her because he knew it would hurt her.
3. He feels powerless to help her.
D. Elisa insists that Goliath take her there.
III. Eyrie Building.
A. Action. Goliath vs. Talon, Fang & Claw.
1. Elisa tries to stop fight. Talon is torn.
2. Maggie stops fight.
a. She hates the fighting.
b. We see that Talon listens to her.
3. Magnanimous Xanatos seconds the motion.
a. He's pleased that the Mutates defend his castle.
b. But Goliath and Elisa are not the enemy.
B. Elisa confronts Talon: X is the enemy.
1. Maggie defends X as their only chance for a cure.
2. Elisa says X is the cause not the cure.
3. Talon: No -- Sevarius and Goliath caused this.
4. Reveal that Talon believes Sev. to be dead.
a. Either show flashback to "Metamorphosis"
b. Or be very clear for our audience:
i. Why he thinks Sev is dead.
ii. And why he blames Goliath.
5. Elisa hasn't seen Sev, so she can't be sure.
a. But she expresses some doubt that he's dead.
b. Talon: if Sev is alive now, he won't be for long.
6. Elisa and Goliath leave.
C. X secretly tells Owen to warn Sev to disappear for awhile.
A. Sev is kidnapped. Nobody sees. Very Quick.
B. Elisa arrives seconds later in her car.
1. Confirms w/security guard that Sev is alive.
a. She just missed him.
2. Another winged figure listens from above.
a. It's actually Talon.
b. But audience, and even Elisa, will assume it's G.
i. Elisa's touched G's so concerned about her.
V. Sev caged by unseen captor in underground Cyberbiotics Lab.
VI. Eyrie Building.
A. Owen has not been able to reach Sev.
1. Talon probably got to him first.
B. On battlements, Talon returns. Mutates confab.
1. Talon now knows Sev didn't die in "Metamorphosis".
2. But "dealing" with Sev is only half the job.
3. Sev couldn't have faked his death without help.
4. Goliath is Talon's #1 suspect.
5. Maggie doesn't agree but...
a. She let's slip about the Clock Tower.
VII. Fang, Claw and Maggie attack Clock Tower.
A. Maggie is present but is terrified by fighting.
B. Hudson and Bronx are the only Gargoyles there.
1. They put up a valiant fight but are defeated.
VIII. Underground Lab. Sev agrees to work on cure for unseen captor.
IX. Clock Tower. Hudson regains consciousness.
A. Fang & Claw await Goliath's return.
1. So they can bring him back to Talon, as ordered.
2. Hudson warns them it'll be a long wait.
a. Goliath said he'd be gone for a few nights.
i. It's actually the truth.
ii. But the mutates don't buy it.
iii. Neither will the audience.
X. Eyrie Building.
A. Owen checks all locations where Talon might hold Sev.
B. Talon confronts X.
1. Until recently, Sev was alive & working at G-U-Tech.
2. X admits that he was fooled by Sev's "death".
a. Goliath and Sev must've been working together.
b. G wants Sev to create more monsters like him.
c. This confirms Talon's suspicions.
3. X has known for some time that Sev was alive.
a. He's had Sev working on a cure at Gen-U-Tech.
b. Didn't want to get Talon's hopes up.
4. But Sev was close to a cure.
a. If it's not too late...
b. Talon should release him to X's custody....
XI. Clock Tower. Trio return home.
A. Hudson manages to warn them.
1. Fang & Claw are more powerful...
2. But Gargoyles are more experienced fighters.
3. Gargoyles win.
C. Brooklyn talks to Maggie.
1. He's over his crush on her.
2. But he still tries to get her to see reason.
a. G was there that night to save her from Sev.
b. G & Sev aren't partners.
c. Xanatos must be culprit.
3. Maggie doesn't want to hear it.
a. Xanatos is their only chance for a cure.
b. Gargoyles must be at fault.
4. To prove her wrong, Brooklyn lets the Mutates go.
XII. Gen-U-Tech. Elisa's back, still looking for missing Sev.
A. She's very worried that Derek has done something stupid.
B. Checking security-camera footage for when Sev left earlier.
1. Does enhancing tricks to confirm Sev was snatched.
2. Enhances more to get a look at kidnapper.
a. Off her reaction...
XIII. Cyberbiotics. Reveal Goliath as kidnapper of Sev.
XIV. Eyrie Building. Talon tells Xanatos that he doesn't have Sev.
A. Owen enters w/news from Gen-U-Tech.
1. Looks like Sev. "left with" Goliath.
a. Comes across as proof that Sev & G are partners.
2. Doesn't take long for Owen to deduce where G is.
a. Only one abandoned lab that G knows about.
i. CyberBiotics Underground Research Lab.
B. Talon takes off.
C. Other Mutates are just getting back from Clock Tower.
2. They go after him.
XV. CyberBiotics. Goliath is watching Sev work on serum.
A. Elisa enters. (Calm before the storm.)
1. She deduced his location (same as Owen did).
2. Why did Goliath do it?
a. He could see how Derek's condition hurt Elisa.
b. He was afraid that if Talon got to Sev first...
i. then Sev wouldn't survive to cure Derek.
c. Seemed like only way to get cure from Sev.
3. Elisa: Ends don't justify the means.
a. Besides, wouldn't work anyhow.
b. They can't trust Sev.
i. How do they know "the cure" is safe?
4. Goliath agrees to release Sev.
B. Too late. Talon arrives, with Mutates on his heals.
1. Positive that G and Sev are in cahoots.
2. Talon attacks G.
a. This time E. can't stop them.
C. Mutates join in.
1. It's curtains for Goliath and Sev.
D. Sev tries to save his skin with the cure.
1. There's enough here for one.
b. But he can make enough for all four.
2. Talon and Fang don't care.
a. Claw and especially Maggie care a great deal.
b. Maggie reaches out to Talon.
i. What's more important?
ii. Vengeance or Humanity?
3. For her sake, he relents, and gives her the serum.
a. Maggie clutches the serum like it was a diamond.
4. Sev tries to get Talon to take it instead of Maggie.
a. Which makes everyone suspicious.
b. Situation on verge of heating up again.
E. Armored Xanatos steps out of shadows.
1. Rescues Sev.
2. Things seemed under control.
a. But Sev overplayed his hand, as usual.
3. Talon finally gets message about X.
4. X: "So sue me." or some such.
5. He takes off with Sev.
a. Parting shot from Sev: "Serum's poison."
F. Maggie still wants to take it.
1. She thinks Sev lied to preserve his "creations".
a. It's a risk she's willing to take.
b. Because it's better to die than to live a monster.
2. Talon disagrees strongly.
a. Life is more important than normalcy.
b. Besides, he's a monster too.
3. She thinks he's stronger than she is.
4. But Talon couldn't have made it without her.
a. Neither are strong alone.
b. They are strong together.
5. She puts the serum aside.
G. Goliath offers Mutates a home with his gargoyle clan.
1. Thanks, but no.
2. Talon has his own clan (i.e. Mutates).
3. And his own family...
XVI. CYBERBIOTICS UNDERGROUND LAB - A few NIGHTS later.
A. Elisa brings Peter, Diane and Beth.
1. They are reunited with Talon.
a. Hint Maggie.
b. Fang and Claw in b.g.
B. Goliath watches, pleased.
C. Sevarius' cage sits empty. The door wide open.
1) What year was Maggie born?
2) What year was Claw born?
3) What year was Fang born?
4. And while we're at it, Talon: 1970.
is the Labyrinth that the clones and mutates live in really a labyrinth? it didn't seem too much like a maze whenever we would see it in the series, and lots of characters went down there and didn't get lost or anything.
It's mostly just a name. But there are tons of corridors, tunnels, etc. Some of them hidden, like the one where Fang found the old Cyberbiotics weapons cache. So you could get lost and you could call it a maze.
And honestly, matt, doesn't this question seem a bit nit-picky?
recorded on 09-11-01
ok, i'll admit that sometimes i DO nitpick at things, but generally my questions do have a point. since you asked i'll tell you that i asked this cuz i really did want to know if it was an actual labyrinth or just a name. and now knowing that its just a name mostly doesn't bother me or anything. i just like to know the little details alot of times. its not nit-picking, its just being complete and precise, i guess.
Ehh, you may have caught me in a bad mood. There was a point where everyone seemed to be submitting questions with the intent of making me look foolish in some way. My apologies.
As for the Labyrinth, we largely stuck to two or three main areas. But the implication was that between the old subway tunnels and the cyberbiotics build-outs, that the place was fairly maze-like. You looked at my answer and concluded it was just a name. But --and now I'm being nit-picky -- that wasn't my answer. It was mostly just a name. But it was accurate as well.
Just out of curiousity(I hope to what ever god/dess that I spelled that right.) I was wondering why Sevarius did gene splicing to make the Mutates? I watched this thing on one of the educational channels and it said that humans have little bits of DNA from every animal in their DNA codes. So, why didn't Sevarius just activate the exsting genes in them? Or, did he by that gene splicing?
Well off to homework, "yeah".
Anyone with a scientific background want to field this? Come up with an explanation that justifies what we put into the show?
Be my guest.
You said that if Gargoyles continued there would be more mutates can you give a hint what these future mutates would look like?
And did I say that?
why did you decide to redo the look of the Mutates after Metamorphosis? esspecially Talon, his hair got smoother and darker, he lost his tail, and all the Mutates gained retinas in their eyes, not just white like Bronx's. and yes, he did have a tail!
2. in the garg universe do you have an explanation for the change in appearence? like perhaps they were still mutating? i don't know how that explains gaining a tail then losing it...
1. I didn't. Frank did. I just didn't object.
2. Yes. They were still mutating. That's why I didn't object. It was absorbed back into their bodies as their human dna regained some ascendency.
Did Fang act the way he does now before he was transformed, or was it sorta saposta be that he was corrupted by his new powers? The Mutation seemed to affect Derik a bit, or at least have a sort of eye of oden affect on him.
Fang has an interesting history. Let's just say that who he is now is an extension of who he was. Of course, the metamorphosis effected him. But not to the exclusion of what had come before.
1)At the fun house, when Goliath goes for help, why dosn't he bring Claw and Maggie. I know it's a pretty dumb question, but hey.
2a)Does Sevarius still work at Gen-u-tec, as well as at Nighstone. Does he still work for Xanatos, or do Xanatos new priorities require letting Sevarius go. b)Would Sevarius make somthing like Thailog ever agian? Was he as scared by him as Xanatos was? c) Is Thailog on much better terms with his father Sevarius, or would he still like to kill him if he lost his usefullness?
1. He doesn't have time to stop by BOTH the Clock Tower and the Labyrinth. If you were Goliath, where would you go? (Keep in mind that neither Claw or Maggie are really 'warriors born'.)
2a. As of when?
2b. Sevarius is not too big on common sense, I think.
2c. Thailog's not on great terms with any of his fathers.
What are the names of the clones clan?
You mean the names of the clones or the name of their clan?
Anyway, as of 1996, when one might argue the Labyrinth Clan was founded, the cloned gargs included Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu, Burbank and Delilah. There were also Mutates down there: Talon, Maggie the Cat, Claw and an imprisoned Fang. And a number of homeless humans who had found a home beneath.
Thailog's also a clone, but he wasn't exactly part of this clan.
Hi Mr. Weisman
In reference to the mutates Talon and his clan and Wolf the exact term in Genetic engineering to call creatures like these that are genetically engineered with the DNA of different species of animals is the word chimera in reference to the legendary chimara that was part lion, snake, and goat. My question is why did Talon and his clan and Wolf be called mutates instead of chimeras since chimeras is the scientifically way to call human-animal hybrids?
Because I'm not as well educated as you, perhaps?
Who has more power in terms of electricity a Labyrinth mutate or Jove of the NOs?
Probably Jove. But I'm not big on this kind of question.
Sorry Matt for picking on you I was just joking any question time.....
Greg you said earlier that Talon would get upset when his sister takes Goliath to be her mate. I was wondering why would he get upset over his sister's choice about the person she wants to spend the rest of her life with?
Think about it and get back to me.
Which one of the clone gargoyles is going to assume the position of leader of the Labyrinth?
At the moment, Talon is the leader down there.
Oh, one other statement on "Metamorphosis":
The course of events leading up to Derek being accidently injected with the mutagenic formula seemed awkward. Was it Xanatos' plan to have Derek mutated? In a way it seems it was Derek's fate to be transformed since he asked to go with Xanatos, even though Xanatos said "That won't be necessary." But Derek insisted and ended up going for the ride.
What if Derek didn't go along or had never made an attempt to take the shot for Xanatos when Sevarius was going to shoot the mutagenic formula at him initially? Xanatos would have been hit with it and he would have mutated. That must have been one hell of a risk he took, not knowing that Derek might not come to his rescue. Seeing how the whole time Xanatos and Sevarius were allied and the whole thing seemed like a setup for Derek. But it still gets me as to why the things happened the way they did? For the story's sake in suppose. I at least would have expected Xanatos to scold Sevarius for almost shooting at him. Or is there something that I am missing?
You're missing Xanatos' basic rule for operation. Contingency plans for everything. Owen said what he said to GET Derek interested. If Derek hadn't volunteered, Xanatos would have asked him to come.
If Derek hadn't been heading for Xanatos, Sevarius would not have shot at that point. Sevarius was aiming for Derek, not Xanatos.
But every aspect of the plan was backed by contingencies.
Some questions about "Metamorphosis" since I watched it yesterday:
1. What did Maggie do or was going to do before she got coaxed by Dr. Sevarius into becoming an experiment?
2. I noticed in this episode that once Derek was mutated and could fly, he looked almost exactly like Fang (which I guess is sort of a cross between a bobcat and a cougar maybe), but then in the later episodes which Derek was featured, his looks were completely different and he looked more like a panther and had black fur. Did you decide to make him look different later or was he essentially still mutating?
3. I also noticed that Fang's initial appearence with the quick shot of the cage they were in when Sevarius was showing Xanatos his work. Fang looked nothing like he does now, well, in a sense. Did you also change his look just for the better or was he still mutating?
1. I've answered this before. I think she came to NYC to be famous. Brought what seemed like a lot of money to her, but then wound up on the streets.
2. Answered this too. Did you even look in the Mutate ARCHIVE? The "in-show" answer is that the mutates were still mutating. The 'behind the scenes' answer is that Frank wasn't satisfied with the original design on the mutates. But we ran out of time. He kept tinkering with them however to get the final version you saw and "The Cage" and forward.
3. All four mutates, including Talon, Fang, Claw and Maggie the Cat went through revisions between "Metamorphosis" and "The Cage".
Oh Greg the episode Metamorphisis was pretty cool the mutagen thing and all. Do you know in reality how they do gene transference between different organisms like the gene tranference between Derek and a panther, electric eel and bat. Viruses they insert genes into viruses and inject them into a creature where the viruses insert the foreign genes into the creatures DNA and it usually takes 5 months for the creature's DNA to accept the foreign genes as opposed to the 2 days in the episode Metamorphisis. Also there is also a high risk that the immune system would gobble up the mutagen plus the body also gets rid of cells that are mutated so in reality if a mad scientist ever injected you with a mutagen containing the DNA of animals your immune system would destroy the mutagen or the cells that has been mutated
Oh, sure. But, uh, Sevarius compensated for that with something that temporarily weakens the immune system.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Will it be painful for Maggie when she and Talon have sex?
Because in my biology text book male cats have barbs on their penises,and when cats mate the female is in pain because the barbs scrape her vulva. Since both Maggie and Derek have cat DNA imbedded in their DNA I imagine that she would be in pain during sex with Talon.
I think we'll just say they didn't go with the barbs thing, kay?
Who is going to the gargoyle leader of the labyrinth clan?
In what era?
Right now, Talon is the leader.
After thinking about Basilisk's post regarding whether the mutates could be un-mutated, I have to disagree with his opinion that it would be impossible to undo the mutations. If Sevarius was able to replace the genes of his test subjects with samples of DNA from other animals, it should be fairly simple to reverse the process. Assuming he used some sort of retrovirus to replace the segments of Derek, Maggie, et al.'s original DNA with DNA from other animals. All he would need to do to change them back would be to use the same virus, only this time instead of giving it lion or eel DNA to insert give it a copy of the mutate's original human DNA. The point is that if Sevarius was able to alter their DNA in the first place, he could certainly alter it again.
The biggest problem would be finding a sample of the mutates' orginal, human DNA. When he created Talon, he replaced a significant portion of the DNA that coded for "Derek Maza" with DNA that coded for "panther" and other creatures. Finding the DNA he was going to use to create Talon was fairly easy, he just sampled it from a panther. But if he wanted to re-make Derek Maza, he would have to replace the DNA that codes for "panther" with DNA that codes for "Derek Maza." The problem is that there was only one source of "Derek Maza" DNA on earth: Derek Maza. And this source was destroyed when Sevarius overwrote Derek's original DNA in the mutation process. So unless an alternate source of "Derek Maza" DNA can be found (e.g. blood sample, hair sample from before the mutation) then it would be impossible to recreate Derek.
However, there could be one other option in the absence of a sample of the original DNA. The mutated DNA could be replaced with DNA from a human donor. Someone from the immediate family would probably be best. The effect would be to make the mutates human again, but not the same humans they were originally. For instance, Derek would have a human nose; but it would look like the nose of the DNA donor, not Derek's original nose.
Given this option, what do you think the mutates would choose? Would they decide to become human again, even if they couldn't be the same humans they were before the mutation? After all, unless their DNA is changed back to it's original state, they'll still be mutates. The only difference is that they'll be mutates who look like humans instead of mutates who look like gargoyles. So I guess the question is which species would they rather be an imitation of?
Well, my guess is Sevarius kept DNA samples of all the pre-Mutate humans. Probably got the samples for Fang, Claw, Maggie and wolf himself. And Derek's could have been acquired during a routine company physical.
I won't pretend to be the scientist Sevarius is. There may be multiple ways to turn them back or NONE at all. Personally, I like the ambiguity. And the fact that the one guy who might just be capable of it is completely untrustworthy.
Given all that, commenting on your specific scenario becomes a bit difficult.
What is Talon's view on homosexuality?
And we're done.
When Talon and the other mutates die will he and the other mutates that go to heaven in their current forms or their human forms?
Never been to heaven. Not sure HOW it works.
when i asked if Claw will ever talk again you said, "I hope not". why do you hope that Claw will never talk again? his not being to talk is psychological not physiological, right? as in its something wrong in his head, not wrong with his physical body. what spin-offs would Claw make appearences in? would he be a main character in any of them?
This isn't exactly altruistic of me, but I believe Claw is a more interesting (and in some ways more expressive and unique) character as a mute. Yes, it's psychological. And I do believe he's adjusted since the initial trauma, but part of that adjustment involves adjusting simultaneously to not speaking. I don't see him speaking again, unless it's right before his death. (And, no I don't yet know how or when he dies.)
As for spin-offs -- assuming they ever get made -- look for him to appear in Bad Guys (because of his relationship to Fang). Perhaps in New Olympians and Pendragon. But mostly in the main Gargoyles series. I see him sticking pretty close to Talon and Maggie and the Labyrinth.
am i correct in these assumptions of what beasts DNA was used to mutate the following characters:
Wolf - wolf
Talon - panther, bat, e. eel
Claw - tiger, bat, e. eel
Fang - couger?, bat, e.eel
Maggie the Cat - lion, bat, e. eel
Yeah, that sounds right. Cougar or Mountain Lion for Fang.
will Claw ever talk again? by the way, i loved the cat got your tongue joke!
I hope not.
This question is a little complicated, so please bear with me...
You refer to Talon, Maggie, Fang, and Claw as Mutates, in this case mutated through chemical reactions. The changes to the Mutates are obviously not comestic or superficial. Their musculature, their organs, their bones, their tissues... all of these must have been altered, or else such things as flying, glowing eyes, and electric abilities would be impossible. To put it simply, their very DNA was changed.
Then a "cure" could not truly exist. If their DNA itself was altered, as it must have been to make them as they are, they would need something to restructure it back to its original form in order for them to be "cured". Alterations to deoxyribonucleic acid are permanent, and they cannot revert to a previous form. They must be recreated into a new one.
So was Sevarius merely tricking Maggie and company when he said he had a cure? I mean, he could probably create something that could restructure her DNA back into that of a human... but unless he could somehow use a cell sample from her to redesign it to her OWN human form, I don't see how she could ever be truly "cured". Could you please clarify this for me?
I have no comment, other than to say that obviously Sevarius can't be trusted.
 You've said before that you had "marriage, etc" in store for Maggie and Talon. I agree that what-ifs are impossible to deal with, but I'm curious to know if they'd ever have ended up together if it weren't for Gen-U-Tech. From the little we saw of their early interpersonal mechanics (I think that's how it's put), all they seem to have in common is their horrifying experience with Sevarius. Shared trauma can be a mightily powerful attracting force, but it just doesn't seem like a strong foundation on which to build a relationship.
It's not merely the old "leader gets the girl" cliche, I'm sure -- the qualities that make Derek a good leader (and XE recruit) would make him quite the catch. But love isn't one-sided. Maggie really is a sweetheart (steel-core and all), and seems exactly the kind of person to balance out the rougher aspects of Talon's personality (and boy does he have a lot). In the beginning, though, does she have much going for her other than a waifish vulnerability, innocence (or naivete, your call), and, well... a nice rack? (I'm not too sure if the so-called catgirl mystique counts -- that's pretty hard to pin down.)
Now, I think Derek and Maggie make a cute couple, and I admit I'm probably just spoiled by the near-perfect matchups of E+G and F+D. So why question a good thing? It's just that they've already shown how good they are at self-deception. For the sake of romance, I hope they aren't just fooling themselves again. :)
 What does the Maza family think about their son/brother and Maggie living together?
 Not that I expect an answer for these, but... a) Is the Maza name going to be passed on to T&M's hypothetical children? b) Will it die out with the current generation? (Not necessarily the same question :))
1. No, they clearly would not have ended up together, I think. But that doesn't mean they aren't right for each other. Nor does it mean they may not have some rocky times ahead.
2. They're fine with it. Particularly given what's happened to Derek, they're happy he has someone to share his life and problems with.
3b. It doesn't die out.
Those form-fitting spandex suits the Mutates wear are probably a lot more practical than "tattered street clothing", but they don't look very comfortable. (Especially with all that fur underneath.) Do the new threads simply look better as a Kenner action figure? Foster a needed sense of team spirit? Inhibit static electricity? (An ever-present concern in the dry New York climate, I imagine.)
I just watched _Metamorphosis_ again, and I have a load of new questions...
1) Why did Talon, Fang, and Claw take on new names? I guess it emphasizes their abandonment of their old lives, and Talon already had come up with it, and Fang probably thought it sounded cool, and Claw's better than nothing... but it's so jalepenin' Super-hero!
2a) What do people call Talon when he's around? And when he's not around? (Actually, maybe I should just ask "Who does call Talon 'Talon'?") 2b) Is his family weirded out by his name change?
3) Just some commentary. Unlike 'Fang' and 'Claw', 'Talon' seems to have raptorial rather than predatory connotations. (Bird vs. Beast, kinda.) Any significance to this? Keeping in with the metaphor, though, would make him 'Tooth' -- OK, maybe a little too Flying Dentist to go over well. :) I liked 'Catscan' from your development notes, but I suppose it wouldn't fit with the current backstory.
4) When Maggie was still trying to make her break, was she thinking about changing her name to something more show-bizzy or sophisticated? That'd add an interesting undertone to her later restraint. (Then again, it looks like Maggie's now set herself up to be mono-named a la Madonna or Cher... or, come to think of it, Fox :D.)
1. You answered your own question. Talon was initially, if briefly, trying to hide his identity from his sister. Later it represented his new life. Fang thought it was cool. Claw couldn't or wouldn't talk, and us humans just have to name everyone. So they gave him the name.
2a. Everyone calls Talon Talon except for the Mazas, and sometimes Maggie.
2b. It's the least of it, of course.
3. He has talons on his hands. He was looking down at his hands when he came up with the name.
4. Maggie didn't want to leave her old life behind, so she kept Maggie. But now it's short for Maggie the Cat, which is a nickname that the inhabitants of the Labyrinth use.
Okay, I've been trying to find a way to ask this without tripping over the original ideas restriction. Here goes:
In Metamorphosis, Sevarius says something like: "Aren't you surprised we managed to pull it off at all? It took months of forcing the early test subjects to escape without the gargoyles encountering even one."
What's he talking about?
Before Broadway and Brooklyn found Maggie in that alley, Sevarius was allowing Fang and Claw and (briefly) Maggie, to periodically escape. Xantos' security squad would give them time at night to run around and attract attention, hoping that the gargoyles would either stumble on them or here about them and seek them out. At first they had remarkably little luck. Finally, Broadway and Brooklyn stumbled on Maggie. Once that happened, the rest of the plan could be put into effect.
Why'd Cyberbiotics have a hidden underground base? ('Doesn't everyone?' Right. :P) So why and when did they abandon it?
They had a hidden underground lab, as a precaution against industrial espionage. That lab was destroyed by a fire at the same time that Fortress-1 went down. Renard could not afford to redeploy both locations. So the underground lab/complex was abandoned.
were the mutates eyes supposed to glow like the gargs or was this an animation mistake?
They were supposed to.
1a) What had Sevarius actually concocted at the end of "The Cage"? b) What would have happened to Maggie had she drunk it?
I like the ambiguity, so I'm not going to answer.
can the mutates fly like bats or only glide like gargoyles?
in "the cage" talons eyes glow like the gargs eyes. was this intentional or an animation mistake?
Only in "The Cage"?
Will there be any more mutates in the future besides the 4 already present?
Don't forget Wolf, for starters.
Would Talon and Maggie ever have any kids of their own?
not saying this time
You said something earlier on that in Bad Guys Fang's family will be introduced. My questions are
1) Did Fang ever have any kids when he was human?
2) If Fang had a child how would that child respond to his/her father since now that he is a bat winged couger man?
1. not saying
2. not saying
In the episode Metamorphisis Dr. Sevarius fires a dart containing mutagen at Xanatos but Derek got in front of Xanatos and the dart hit him instead. Even though Xanatos and Sevarius were just acting the scene to fool Derek so he will be turned into a bat winged panther man, my question is what would have happened if Derek never got in front of Xanatos in time and the dart containing the mutagen hit Xanatos instead of Derek? How would Xanatos respond to Sevarius if the dart hit him turning him into a mutate instead of Derek?
It wouldn't have hit Xanatos, because Sevarius was never really aiming at Xanatos. But past him, over his shoulder, more toward Derek. If Derek got himself anywhere in the vicinity, Sevarius would have made sure to nail him -- as he did.
what had happened to claw's wings in future tense?
where was fang by that time? dead?
1. Something horrible that Puck left to Goliath's imagination.
2. Sure. Dead. Why not?
What are Talon's five favorite movies?
I don't know. (Have you posted a lot of these?)
January of '92 was a busy month for Gargoyles Developers. Tad was working on other projects. Maybe Darkwing Duck (if "LP" below stands for "Launchpad"). But he was still helping us out with advice on our show. As I noted earlier, some of Fred Schaefer's villains were problematic. Too dark even for our series. I tended to agree with Tad about Catscan (the proto-Talon). But we did wind up incorporating a bit of the attitude that Tad was concerned about into Fang. (Which makes Catscan the proto-Talon, proto-Sevarius and proto-Fang all rolled into one.)
 From: Tad Stones 1/17/92 8:25AM (712 bytes: 11 ln)
To: Greg Weisman
------------------------------- Message Contents -------------------------------
Read the villain stuff on Cat Scan. Considering I'm getting notes from Michael Webster about cutting scenes that show LP littering, and GK is worried about doing gags about coffee and showing a gorilla wearing a dress ... do you really want to portray a character who's pumped up by violence, who says he's never felt more alive than when he was fighting?
Even though he's a villain, he's attractive because he's smart and powerful. I think this guy is over the line, however fuzzy that line is.
Would Talon and Maggie have an actual wedding?
Hi. I'm back from my sojourn in Louisiana (hi Green Baron). And it's time to continue our reprinting of old development documents from the show...
This one features two villains, Catscan & Shard, that were created by Fred Schaefer, who coincidentally traveled with me in New Orleans this past week. Catscan would eventually split into Sevarius and Talon. Shard would fade away -- too violent and without enough imagination or flare to make the cut.
[Read: GDW 1/15]
THE GARGOYLE -- VILLAINS
DISTRIBUTION: Cranston, Fair, Felix, Guler, Kline, Krisel, Ryan, Stones, Weisman
CAT SCAN -- Part man; part panther. Has a muscular, taut, and sleek body. Walks upright most of the time, but can hit some whopping speeds on all fours. His powerful hind legs allow him to leap from one rooftop to another. He also has x-ray night vision, which is capable of duplicating objects (living or non-living) in 3-D. He uses these convincing (if short-lived) holograms as decoys to fool his enemies. He's highly dangerous (razor-sharp claws and teeth), and can kill very quickly. [Greg wrote: "Fitting the name/ May not fit origin" beside this paragraph.]
FIRST EPISODE INTRODUCING CAT SCAN
Dr. Grun is a shamelessly ambitious scientist doing top secret research on vision -- human vs. animal -- for Xavier's corporation. Xavier is involved in developing a highly-advanced "night vision" for jets and a new revolutionary decoy device using holograms. Unfortunately, Dr. Grun's experiments requires an enormous amount of animal research. Mostly on wild cats.
One day, an animal rights group infiltrated his lab. [I underlined this sentence and wrote "Makes them villians".] A violent clash ensues; Dr. Grun accidentally receives a massive dose of his own newly developed x-ray, a controversial device that melds CAT Scan technology with genetics. [I circled "CAT" and wrote "abbreviation has nothing to do w/Cats."] He's hospitalized in Xavier's in-house medical center.
Dr. Grun's body begins to undergo some drastic and extremely painful mutations. Slowly, he turns into a panther/human. He becomes angry, bitter, self-denigrating -- his career as a scientist is over! [I wrote: "Why"] Xavier becomes angry (and sickened by Grun's pathetic self-loathing; remember, powerlessness is Xavier's biggest fear); he reprimands Dr. Grun, telling him that he has acquired skills that no other human possesses. He is powerful and dangerous. Xavier wants to recruit him in his villain team.
At first, Dr. Grun is mortified. The life of a criminal is no substitute for the intellectual life of a scientist! Indignant, Dr. Grun storms out of Xavier's headquarters. That night, while wandering through dark back alleys, Dr. Grun is hounded by a beggar. In a fit of fierce anger (coupled with his feelings of frustration and self-revulsion) he lashes out and attacks the man. The Gargoyle comes to the man's rescue. He and Dr. Grun battle. Dr. Grun escapes.
Safe from the Gargoyle, Dr. Grun reflects on the violence. Surprisingly, he admits that he's never felt more vigorous in his entire life. Pumped up. visceral. ALIVE!!!! (He returns to Xavier as the self-proclaimed CAT Scan, and joins his team.)
THE SECOND EPISODE FEATURING CAT SCAN
[I crossed this out and added an arrow to the paragraph below to move it up with the previous.]
CAT Scan confronts the Gargoyle while trying to pull off one of Xavier's crimes. CAT Scan has been waiting for this moment ... a chance to face his very first opponent again. Only this time, he's more powerful and more skillful at using his CAT Scan vision. It's a tough, grueling fight.
CAT Scan loses, but not by much. He vows to get even. The score is not settled.
THE THIRD EPISODE FEATURING CAT SCAN
CAT Scan discovers that the raid on his lab a long time ago was a hoax perpetrated by Xavier himself. It was no accident that Dr. Grun was dosed by the replicating device. Xavier's rationale was: who better to understand and deal with the psychological stress of becoming a panther than a man who's studied wild cats all his life. A man who understands the physical effects of genetic mutations and the capabilities of the advanced CAT Scan x-rays. Dr. Grun was simply a tool ... and now he's a freak. An enslaved freak. He decides to kill Xavier.
The Gargoyle now finds himself in the odd position of protecting Xavier from CAT Scan. In the end, though, CAT Scan is defeated again.
HERE'S ANOTHER ONE ...
SHARD -- Randall Craig is a New York window cleaner. He's a large man, and yet has an amazing sense of balance; his bulk belies his agility. He's comfortable scaling skyscrapers and definitely not afraid of heights. Some of his coworkers think he's a little too casual on the job.
Although bulky, he's really a shy, somewhat innocent-looking man. A man who's hiding a deep secret: he has an uncontrollable violent streak in him that's triggered when he's being mocked, condescended to, or is ridiculed. Unfortunately, his co-workers make fun of him all the time, but he resists smashing their skulls in because he doesn't want to get fired. [By this section, I wrote: "We all feel this way".] He internalizes his rage and late at night releases it on innocent victims on the streets of New York. [By this I wrote: "can't be to [sic] uncontrollable".]
One day on the job, he cracks up. He crashes through the window of an office tower and beats the [expletive delted] out of an executive who he thought was mocking him as he worked. The broken glass severely scars his face. He's fired.
Plastic surgery can correct the damage, but he decides that he ' likes his new look -- the scars, covering most of his face, resemble a shattered mirror or window. [By these last two paragraphs, I wrote: "Won't be able to do this".]
After the incident he becomes a recluse. He always was an outsider, a loner, but now he disappears for a long period of time. When he resurfaces, it's as a maniacal, senseless murderer. Now he has an "occupation" that people will respect ... even fear. It's hard to be condescending the moment before you're murdered!
Shard spends his nights scaling skyscrapers. When-he sees his next victim, he swoops down on a rope and snatches them from the sidewalk. As he climbs up the building (to the rooftop where his crimes are committed), his victims quickly stop struggling. They are so high up, so quickly, that they don't want him to let them go. Unfortunately, they don't know what awaits them on the roof.
At the scene of Shard's crimes (always on the top of skyscrapers, leaving the police puzzled about how the killer and the victim got up there without anyone noticing them), he leaves a shard of glass -- perfectly clean, like a diamond; no fingerprints, no smudges. And as sharp as a knife. His repeated murders make the headlines of the New York Times.
Xavier relishes the mystery and the ferocity of the killer's crimes, so he sends his men out to track him down before the police do: Xavier wants him on his team! [I circled the word "team" and put a question mark beside it.]
One night, Shard swipes one of Xavier's men and begins scaling a skyscraper to the man's final resting place -- on the roof! The Gargoyle tries to save the man (unknowingly saving one of Xavier's henchmen); a high wire fight ensues; Xavier shows up in a helicopter, joins in the battle against the Gargoyle, but all of the villains are defeated... just barely.
Later, Shard is confronted by Xavier who is eager to recruit him. Shard, however, is furious and almost drops Xavier off the side of a building: he doesn't need him; the world doesn't need him; the world has Shard! Xavier, however, is amused with Shard's look on life. He can't help but laugh. Here is a man who understands ego and power! (Of course, Xavier concludes, he's not bright enough to properly use it; that's why he needs Xavier.) Shard thinks Xavier is laughing at him, so he drops him from the building top. Halfway to the ground, Xavier's saved by his helicopter. Undaunted, apparently not even angry that Shard almost killed him, Xavier laughs out loud and vows to recruit Shard one day... one day.
THE SECOND EPISODE FEATURING SHARD
Well, that day comes soon enough. Cut to the action: Shard is trapped; he's going to be captured by the Gargoyle. Only Xavier can save him, but he'll do so only if Shard vows to work for him. Reluctantly, he agrees, and is saved by Xavier, who laughs demonically at his catch. Shard is having second thoughts...
[I wrote: "Xavier doesn't have to be in everything".]
How would Fang come to join the Redemption Squad: I mean, would he escape the Labyrinth first or have to be broken out, as in "THE RECKONING"?
Not telling. But it involves Sevarius.
Why are the Mutates referred to as such? I mean, the more obvious name would be Mutants. Was this name not used so as to not be confused with the X-Men mutants?
Not really. Mutants are born that way. It's literally a term from biology. Mutates are "mutated".
Where exactly Is the Labrynth located? If in New York City, is it in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, Statan Island, or the Bronx? Or is it located just outside the city, like Long Island or New Jersy or something?
Under Manhattan mostly... but it extends...
You've said that the mutates are capable of true flight, unlike the gargoyles who can only glide. Is this b/c of their energy boost from the electricity thing, or a result of their design, or some other reason?
I have a thing for cat-like characters as well. Catwoman from Batman has always been one of my favorite characters. So I liked the mutantes a lot. I love the electric eel thing too, it was very cool and very different. I like Talon's attitude. And Fang was a nice addition. I like Claw, but wish I could have seen more of him in the series. Maggie was a slight disappointment, mainly cause we didn't get to see her grow as much. They all seem to accept their new form later in the series, enjoy it even. Maggie was very different from the other mutants. She was more afraid, unsure, cautious...can't blame her. I am getting ahead of myself with this episode into other mutant episodes...but oh well...Maggie is very weak at first. Like a scared little kitten really. Very different from all the other strong female characters.
I think this episode also defined the moment for Brooklyn and all Brooklyn fans from then on. Here's ya got a handsome young gargoyle, who loves this new "gargoyle-like" creature and she blows him off, calling him a monster, even though she resembled a gargoyle. Then she runs to Talon. So ya got this sympathy for Brooklyn. Cause Lex and Broadway didn't seem as interested in her as he was. Ya got Demona even, in Temptation, to me, I felt that when he started to trust her, he started to like her, then she betrays him horribly. Then later, Angela goes for Broadway, when a lot of fans, including me, thought it would be Brooklyn. And poor Brook get's upstaged again, by one of his best friends too. Not that I wasn't happy myself. Actually, I like Broadway/Angela better then Brooklyn with her. Broadway isn't so "pushy"...I am gonna get it from all them Brook fans...So Brooklyn grows slightly from this. It's been over a thousand years, most of those sleeping, but the waking, with no females, so ya got this 16 year old boy, trapped on an island and suddenly the only female blows him off. It's hard for him and he develops the jealousy with Talon.
I also was slightly surprised, but certainly not disappointed by the ending. It was perfect for the episode and I wouldn't want to see it any other way.
BTW, I like look you developed later for the the mutants as well.
It was because we had so many strong female characters in the series (including Elisa, Maria, Diane, Demona, Fox and Hyena) that we (myself, Michael Reaves, Brynne Chandler Reaves and Lydia Marano) felt comfortable to make Maggie weaker -- at least at first. In fact Brynne and Lydia seemed to really want to explore a character that freaked out more. That frankly, reacted more as you or I would. I do think she grew though. She'd never be another Elisa, but "The Cage" represented a turning point for her. And I think she demonstrated real strength in "Kingdom". Not a warrior's strength. But a wife's strength. And by "The Reckoning", even though she didn't have a line, she WAS taking her turn guarding the prisoners.
Of course, the real irony is that she has almost NOTHING in common with the original MAGGIE THE CAT from William's CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF. That didn't bother me. I appreciated the irony.
And don't worry too much about Brooklyn. Katana's a good match for him.
Ah, one of my favs. Pity I missed it the first time it aired.
Throughout the second season, the show was on while I was still in school, so I had to tape it all the time. Three times the VCR, for one reason or another, failed to tape. Each time, the eps that aired were new ones--METAMORPHOSIS, THE CAGE, and KINGDOM (are you sensing a pattern here?). What made this twist of fate REALLY cruel is that these are some of my favorite eps. I love cats for one thing, so I was instantly attracted to the Mutates. This episode was also the one that cemented Brooklyn as my favorite character, so there's another. And, in two of the missed eps, Tim Curry, one of my (again) favorite actors, is featured.
Missing this ep didn't put me too far out of the loop. The only reference to it I picked up was Elisa's remark in EYE OF THE BEHOLDER that the Werefox was "human once, just like [her] brother." For some reason I didn't catch the reference to "mutated victims" and in OUTFOXED, after an initial "Huh?", I forgot about Renard's mention of some "Anton Sevarius" (keeping the strength of THAT revelation safe until the second time around). But, I digress. On with the ep itself.
Brooklyn's attraction to Maggie (whom I instantly recognized and grew interested in--what can I say, I have an affinity for cat-women) intrigued me. I always wondered if the fact that she wasn't a true gargoyle even mattered to him. Did I root for him and Maggie to get together? Not neccesarily. Did I *expect* it? Actually, yes. The attitude Brooklyn displays here is usually as deep as most animated shows go in depicting "love." After some intiial shock, my admiration for the series increased when Maggie wound up with Talon and Brooklyn's attraction was shown as just a crush. Regardless, his "love at first sight" mentality was something in Brooklyn I found appealing (a fellow hopeless romantic, perhaps). His experiences here and his final acceptance of the facts grabbed my notice and from this ep on, I always tended to favor him (though I made an effort not to do so at the expense of the other characters).
Looking at the ep, knowing what I know about the characters now, Brodway's ability to "read people" versus Brooklyn's self-delusion is very nicely juxtaposed, and they have some good exchanges. When Brooklyn tells Broadway "You don't know anything about her" there is much irony--Broadway knows more about her than Brooklyn does.
For what it's worth, I believed Xanatos (probably helped because I had seen EYE OF THE BEHOLDER before I got to see this). He seemed sincere enough to me, and mutation seemed ultra-slimy even for him. Boy was I surprised at the end. I was even more surprised by the end than by Sevarius' "death"--you guys had let people die in the series before, why not now? My surprise was tripled when I saw that Sevarius looked much younger and had a less thick accent than how he'd been played. I thought Sevarius the "mad scientist" was the real thing--he was voiced by Tim Curry who is usually thrown into the roles of over-the-top scientists and (in his own words) "east-European villains" so it was a pleasure to see a sort of send-up of type-casting in this. (And who couldn't recognize Sevarius? Even without the accent, he still had Tim Curry's inimitable pipes.)
The ending: Morbidly enough, this ending is one of my favorites because the good guys actually lost this round. Brooklyn's brooding and Elisa's crying really drove this point home. I am, strangly enough, reminded of a joke T-shirt: "Sometimes, the dragon wins."
And FINALLY! I now know who did the voice of the as-yet-unnamed Fang in this ep. I knew it wasn't James Belushi (it didn't have quite the same "growling" quality) but I couldn't for the life of me figure it out, something I can normally do. Truth be told, I would NEVER have guessed it was Jonathan Frakes (though now it seems so obvious to me). Still, the voices are similar enough, and even if they weren't, the Mutates' voices tended to change with their appearance (Rocky Caroll's (sp?) voice for Derek is different than his voice for Talon, and Kath Souci's voice for Maggie was slightly different in KINGDOM than for her first two appearances). But, nice trivia to know.
I hadn't really noticed how much the theme of self-deception was a factor in this, but it makes sense.
And yes, the animation is sub-par, but I just like the story so much I can live with it (and if I can live with the animation in KINGDOM, I think I can live with anything).
POINTLESS OBSERVATION> Not only does Hudson get left at the Clock Tower, but in this ep (as well as TEMPTATION) he doesn't get a single line). In fact his first words to Maggie are "Who's there?" in THE CAGE.
I'm sure there was more I wanted to say, but I think this message is thick enough already.
Very good observations.
We intentionally gave Derek & Talon and Maggie Reed & Maggie the Cat different edges to their voices. We wanted the Mutates (with the obvious exception of Claw) to sound a bit more growly than their previous human counterparts.
But Maggie shouldn't have sounded any different between the Cage and Kingdom. Are you sure you're not just responding to attitude, not voice. Clearly, Maggie doesn't really start to come into her own until Kingdom.
Outside the case of Goliath and Elisa, Brooklyn's attraction to Maggie seems to be the only case where we saw hints for an attempted interspecies relationship... Since (if I remember correctly) the rest of the Trio didn't seem particularly interested in Maggie, and we certainly know that it was not 'true love' on Brooklyn's side... what does his attraction to Maggie signify? By that I mean, is it that her mutation gave her a form which was closer to his gargoyle standard of beauty (so that he pretty much considered her a gargoyle)? Or is Brooklyn more likely than his siblings to pursue *any* sentient female, regardless of species? :-)
Hmm... that was a rather muddled question, wasn't it... Ah well...
I think she looked gargoylean to him. (Making allowances for his assumption that there were no other (Non-Demona) female gargoyles left.)
1. Were you planning on creating more mutants other than the descendants than of the ones we have already seen? like more creations from Sevarius
2. Could a mutate such as Claw or Fang mate with a gargoyle or would they face the same problem as Goliath and Elisa
3. Do the mutates have the same life span as when they did when they were human
1. Mutants or Mutates? There's a difference.
2. Same problem. They aren't compatible species.
3. As far as I know.