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Time to Ramble on "City of Stone, Part One", which I watched the other night with my family....
Story Editor: Michael Reaves
Story: Michael Reaves
Teleplay: Brynne Chandler Reaves & Lydia Marano
Well, over a year had passed since we had revealed in "Enter Macbeth" that Macbeth had named Demona. Now we were gearing up to explain that little tidbit of info. I'm curious to know how many people were still focused on that before the "PREVIOUSLY ON GARGOYLES..." reprised it.
City of Stone was a story I had conceived originally (but briefly) as a Direct to Video movie. My boss Gary Krisel rejected it. He felt that a movie featuring the Gargoyles needed to feature our heroes a LOT MORE than this story did. Nevertheless, he liked the concept of the HUNTER a lot. So I got him to agree to let us do City of Stone as a multi-parter for the series. And I promised that Michael and I would come up with a new Hunter story that focused more on our heroes. Thus Hunter's Moon was born -- as a Home Video, originally, and we had an ending to shoot at for the entire second season.
Meanwhile, I couldn't actually disagree with Gary too much. This was Demona and Macbeth's story. The origin of two of our major villains. We had some great animation on this from Koko in Korea. Not as strong as our WDTVJapan stuff, but still very good.
What was the terrorists' cause, you might ask? I'm not telling. At the time, I had no answer. We were vague on purpose. Since then, I've come up with an answer. Now I'm being evasive on purpose.
I love Matt as a hostage negotiator.
But not as much as I love Brendan & Margot as hostages. They're a hoot.
How fast was everyone on the uptake with the Weird Sisters? Those three little girls. Even before the gargs showed, one was saying something like: "Don't worry, it'll be over soon." Did you think they were odd then? Did you notice them?
I like Brooklyn's "Don't gush" line.
When the Weird Sisters tell Goliath they weren't talking about THAT terrorist, my six year old daughter Erin said: "I think they were talking about Demona." For Chanukah, I gave Erin a Kenner Brooklyn, Broadway and Hard-Wire Goliath (which I told her was a Goliath robot). My three year old son Benny got Goliath, Lex and Xanatos. So for the first time, while they watched they could play with the toys.
It's interesting to watch the first flashback SET. All sorts of old footage from Awakening Part One, mixed with new footage. It's all very seemless thanks to great editing by Bob Birchard. And it wasn't easy. Because there was considerable confusion overseas throughout City of Stone, in terms of which model of Demona to animate. We had her standard model. Plus one that was slightly older, for the second set of flashbacks in this episode. They were constantly mixing the models up. We'd call retakes whenever we could, but sometimes we decided just to make due. So you have the flashback from Awakenings, where Goliath tells Demona to stay behind. That's followed by us finally seeing what Demona and the Captain said to each other after Goliath left. No great revelation in that scene, but we figured it would be nice to finally reveal it. Plus we wanted to clarify things from Demona's point of view. But in some of those shots, Demona appears to have aged a bit.
We see Othello & Desdemona. We are allowed to do something in this episode that we couldn't really do for S&P reasons in Awakening. To personalize the victims of the massacre a bit. In Awakening, we only got to meet the survivors. Finally we meet the victims. Of course, we're still cheating a bit, since my excuse to S&P was that our audience already knew (1) that these two died and that (2) they survived in a sense in Coldstone. But it did, independent of previous episodes, allow the startling moment when Demona picks up a fragment of Othello's face. Of course, I tried to get tha fragment -- and all those fragments in the immediate vicinity -- to be the pieces that survived into Coldstone. I think that was semi-successful.
Demona's cowardice overwhelms the courage of her strongly held convictions. She flees. Benny: "The sun's gonna come up." Yep. She turns to stone, shedding a tear. That "TEARS OF STONE" image was so effective that I allowed it to repeat in the episode. Later, her tear drops onto the stone Goliath and seems to be coming from his eye. A nice visual variation on a theme.
Demona: "It worked! At last my clan is free of human rule!"
Erin: "No. It didn't work."
Later Erin sees Demona watching Goliath holding some smashed gargoyles' remains and crying "my angel of the night". Erin says: "He thinks that was her [Demona]." Now you may be wondering why I'm reprinting such obvious responses here. But they interest me. It really struck me this viewing that in this episode, despite the "Previously" segment and all the flashbacks, that you really would be lost if you were a new viewer. Is there anyone out there for whom City of Stone was your first Gargoyle experience? If so, I'd love to hear from you. Did you have a clue as to what was going on?
Demona's classic neurotic short-circuit: "What have I -- What have THEY done to you?" The motivation that writer's live for.
And a little hint of Avalon things to come, as we see Tom, Princess K and Magus depart with the eggs. How many people had given the eggs any thought since Xanatos told the gargs back in Awakening Two that they were the last of their kind? And did this little tidbit whet the appetite, or did you forget about it immediately? I was already planning the Avalon/Archmage/World Tour/Angela stuff.
Benny (out of nowhere) asks: "What happens if someone is frozen in the sky?" We discussed various possibilities. But we're still weeks away from getting around to seeing "The Price". So I didn't want to spoil that one for him.
The intro of Gillecomgain. Erin (who has seen these before once, long ago) suddenly remembers: "His face is gonna get scratched."
Now, back in the 20th century, Owen points out that Xanatos' tv override works for "Cable, as well." I always liked that.
I also like Demona's VERY convincing lie. At this point, we don't know how she's survived through the centuries. Maybe she did do it by stealing minutes of life from thousands of people. And maybe now, she and Xanatos will do the same on a citywide scale. I always thought it was a very elegant lie. What did you guys think? Did you buy it?
The "Watch or Listen but not both" stuff regarding the magic, wasn't just a convenient excuse to give us a Robbins expository scene later. I always felt that the magic our various sorcerors did couldn't be as simple as it seemed. Anyone who reads the spell out loud can do it? No. There are complex inflections, movements, etc. involved. Study and willpower, etc. This was an attempt on my part to demonstrate that it was about more than just being in range with someone who has a copy of a Grimorum page.
On the other hand, I do think we cheated a bit to trap Owen. That spell she reads is the City of Stone spell. Yet it seems to put Owen, of all people, into a trance. We talked about her nailing him some other way first. But it was too clumsy and time consuming, so we just cheated.
Gathering Clue: Demona to Owen: "You are the tricky one." And she wraps him up in iron cable.
Elisa's watching Casablanca. Great movie.
Phoebe is looking at Seline when she speaks to Luna. Like Demona aging, we had a hell of a time getting the overseas studio to keep the three sisters straight. I began to insist that each of their appearances on the storyboard was accompanied by a hair color chart. And once more, it's black for Seline, blonde for Phoebe and silver for Luna.
We also made a real effort to put subtle character distinctions between the three sisters. Seline is the hard case. Phoebe is the gentle one. Luna is the mystic. It was part of hinting that the Sisters would serve multiple purposes in the series. Some of which I still have not revealed.
Back to the past. The guard says "Maybe they won't come." Erin asks: "Maybe who won't come?" And then the gargoyles come. The guards are taken down, and Demona raises her mace into the air. Erin asks: "Are they dead?" And dad... equivocates.
I like that gargoyle (Demona's second) with the breast plate. John Rhys-Davies did his voice.
At this stage, Demona believes that these scattered gargoyles are all that are left in the world. A second later, three gargoyles she's never met show up. (Now, true, they're the Sisters. But I was trying to make a general point, hinting that sometimes characters make absolute statements when they flat out don't know what they're talking about. Audience members beware.)
Benny immediately figured out that the three old gargoyle females were the weird sisters, or as he put it: "They're the humans. The one's that disappeared." I.e. the kids that disappeared in the first sequence of the episode. That made me feel a little better. People are always telling me that I write stuff that is too adult for kids to get. I tell them that I try to write on multiple levels. So that the kids get what they need to get and that adults, etc. get more. But it's nice to get confirmation that the kids do get it on occasion. Particularly in an ep as complicated as this one.
Intro Findlaech, Gruoch, Bodhe and young Macbeth. I like how quickly they are all characterized in that scene. F is loyal. B is equivocal at best. Bodhe is already thinking about how to marry G off to advantage. "What about Macbeth? Is he a match for the lass?" Yeah, sure he's talking about chess. I came to have a great deal of contempt for the character of Bodhe. (Too be fair, I have no idea what the historical Bodhe's character was like.) And yet, almost simultaneously, I became fond of him too. He was SO human. SO flawed. SO afraid of the world. And yet SO desperate to tread water in it.
We also establish the "SIGIL OF MORAY" which will become an important prop throughout.
I like that little blushing moment of G & Mac's. But mostly, I like it because of B & F's reactions. Bodhe is suddenly nervous that Gruoch might, shall we say, lose something with Macbeth prematurely. Though he pushed them together, he now rushes to separate them. But it's too late. The connection has already been made. F just laughs.
Now... Enter the HUNTER. The Hunter got a sort of Steve Canyon intro. That is, he's been talked about by various people for the last few minutes, though we haven't gotten a look at him. (This was the technique used when Steve Canyon was first introduced in the comic strips.) Now he shows up, and I trust he isn't disappointing. Benny immediately says: "THat's the one that got scratched." Sharp boy. (Keep in mind, that we haven't yet seen the adult Gille, so we haven't seen his scarred face yet.)
I love this sequence. It's a great fight, full of great little touches, flourishes, etc. Great storyboarding work here.
Again, characters are revealed in a nutshell. Gruoch's already loyal. Bodhe's revealed to be a coward. Even when his daughter rushes downstairs, he stays above.
Findlaech dies. It's a classic Disney fall-to-one's-death death. But there is a difference. F is the good guy. Usually, that's done with the villain. Was anyone shocked?
I love how at this point, Macbeth is nothing but an annoyance to both Demona and the Hunter. I also love how complex Demona is. Under it all, she's really something of a romantic. She rescues the young lovers. Then can't believe she did it. She's trying to will herself to be cold. So that she won't feel anything. But it isn't natural. She's not a cold woman, though her plans often are. It's that divide that's generally gonna screw her up everytime.
When the Hunter first enters on Prince Duncan, we were supposed to (BRIEFLY) think he was there to attack the Prince as well. But I don't think that comes off even slightly.
And o.k., yes, Gillecomgain has a face to match the Hunter's mask. It's worse than Clark Kent and those glasses. Does Scotland really not know it's him? Believe it or not, that never even occured to me initially. (Yes, I'm a dope.) Now, I'll chalk it up to the notion that everyone figures he's TOO obvious a suspect. You can almost here the water cooler talk:
MacMorris: "Hey, MacTavish, have you ever noticed that that Gillecomgain guy has scars across his face just like the red marks on the Hunter's mask?"
MacTavish: "What are you saying, MacMorris? That Gillecomgain is so stupid, he'd wear a mask and then put his scars ON the mask? Not much of a disguise. Know what I think. I think the Hunter is trying to throw suspicion onto old Gilley."
MacMorris: "Oh, give me a break."
MacTavish: "Hey, pal, it worked with you."
I made a real effort to just have the Weird Sisters EVERYWHERE.
Back to the present. Someone dons a Hunter's Mask. How many knew it was Macbeth right away? I figured at the time that regular viewers would figure that out pretty darn quick. That didn't bother me. For them, I figured the mystery would be "WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD MACBETH DON A HUNTER'S MASK, WHEN THE HUNTER KILLED HIS FATHER?" I thought that mystery was at least as intriguing. Do you guys agree or disagree?
I also liked the variation on the mask. No eyes. Nothing. Modern technology.
Fox. Fox presented an interesting dilemma. What was Xanatos' attitude toward her in this? We already know he loves her. But he doesn't include her in the immortality thing with Demona. Why? Demona won't allow it? Or he thinks Demona won't? Or he doesn't fully trust D and won't risk Fox until he knows the set-up works?
And then he finds out that she did watch the broadcast. He had told her not to, but she did. He doesn't fill her in. (Not that there's much time.) Is he prepared to let her lose a minute from her life (as he believes has happened)? How would he have felt if Demona wasn't lying about that? At the end of her life, would an immortal Xanatos be desperate to give her that one minute back? Of course, given Fox's heritage, which I didn't know yet, it's possible, she'll outlive him by quite a bit. Course, anything's possible.
How's the cliff-hanger? We haven't seen the city yet, but we do get to see Owen, Fox and Elisa all turned to stone. We're so used to the Gargoyles in stone, but not humans. I thought it was sort of chilling. The more chilling, because we know from earlier in this very episode, what can happen when living beings are turned to stone. (The Wyvern Massacre.) Now we've seen this four-parter a bunch of times and we're used to it. But I'm curious as to how you all felt the first time you saw Part One.
Another interesting aspect, is that 3/4 of the threat is to characters that we consider to be villains. Or more than 3/4. In the past, young Macbeth has lost his father and is clearly at risk. And Demona is being hunted. In the present, Fox and Owen are stone. And Xanatos and Fox appear to be falling to their deaths. Sure, the clincher is Elisa. But I think it's a tribute to how well-rounded are villains are that we care what's going to happen to them. Can you imagine most cartoons making the death of the villains a cliff-hanger? People would simply cheer.
One little flaw: Elisa's facing the wrong way. It was easier to board that way, I'm sure. But I can't figure out why she would have been standing and facing that direction at sundown.
Comments welcome, as usual...
The Hunters had a mechanical bird with them when they attacked Goliath, Angela and Hudson.
1a) How did they acquire the bird? b) Which Hunter did it belong to?
2a) Were they the first Hunters to use a bird of any kind in their hunt for Demona? b) If not, how common was it, and what kinds of birds were used?
3a) Will Castaway use such a bird again? b) Will Robyn?
4) Did they really consider the bird to be all that useful? It was destroyed rather easily. Why didn't they use such a bird again?
1a. Like most of their weaponry, they purchased basic tech and adapted it to their own use.
2b. Probably falcons.
4. They didn't have a surplus.
At the time of 'Hunter's moon' were Jason, Jon and Robyn Canmore the only descendents of Canmore? Do they have any other family out there that they are unaware of?
There are probably a lot of Canmore descendants. They probably know some and don't know others, just like anyone. But they were the three who had carried on the tradition of the Hunter.
"There will always be a Hunter...." If I ask you who the next one would be after Robyn, I'm sure to get a "not telling" reply. So for a bit less-revealing an answer, will the next hunter also be descended from Canmore?
With a set up like that, how can I NOT answer with: "I'm not telling."
Speaking of the Canmores and Macbeth, by the "present-day" portion of "Hunter's Moon", were the Canmores still aware of their ancestors' old feud with Macbeth, or had they forgotten this by now, to focus purely on Demona and her race? (I rather suspect the latter, in view of Jason Canmore's confession in the Lost Scene of "Hunter's Moon" that the family had forgotten what started the feud with the gargoyles to begin with).
Yeah, the latter. They didn't even know that the original Hunter wasn't even a Canmore. They certainly didn't know about Gillecomgain being scarred by Demona as a boy. And that all this had largely been a result of that little incident. An incident which Demona had forgotten by the end of the tenth century.
In "The Journey", Banquo and Fleance are portrayed as working for Castaway, who is really Jon Canmore in disguise. Was this intended as a bit of irony, in light of the fact that they'd earlier worked for Macbeth, who was an enemy of the Canmores' ancestors Duncan and Canmore?
Can Gillecomgain smell? In City of Stone part 2 he tries to smell a rose but then he looks sad and steps on it. Did Demona damage his nose?
No. He's just a lousy human being.
In City of Stone 2, when Demona rip off the Hunter's mask, Gillecomegain shot something like: "Do you remember me? The boy you disfigured?" Demona said no. Did she lie or she didn't remember the boy?
I don't think she knew who the hell he was.
What was Duncan's motivation to become the hunter? Was it just because Demona helped out McBeth a couple times?
He saw the Hunter's Mask as a useful and necessary tool.
Thanks for posting the lost "Matt and Chavez" scene from "The Journey".
One bit of interest was Matt's mention of frightened New Yorkers smashing architectural gargoyles. This was because there was a scene involving that in one of the Goliath Chronicles episodes (the "Alex-gets-kidnapped" one, I recall), that we occasionally misremembered as a scene in "The Journey"; now it turns out that you had actually planned such vandalism taking place offstage in that episode all along. At any rate, thanks for that scene.
(The one problem that I admit I have with looking over "The Journey", of course, is that it really makes me regret the way that the rest of the season went after that - I still wish that you'd gotten to do the other twelve episodes as well, but I suppose that there's no use sighing over that).
I'm still sighing over that. The one real career regret I have is not doing those last twelve.
Also, I was intentionally leaving it vague as to whether or not the vandalism was the result of "ordinary citizens" or the Quarrymen. The Q-Men hadn't quite made a splash yet. So Matt might not be aware of them yet. And of course, Castaway was recruiting frightened New Yorkers. So, as usual, it's possible that "all things are true."
A little comment-ramble-reply to your latest ramble (on whether your ideas for the Master Plan count as fanfic or not).
I certainly agree with you that it isn't really official or canon until it reaches the television screen (or whatever Disney's official medium for "Gargoyles" becomes next, when and if it returns). In fact, we've seen evidence enough already that things may get changed in the process of actually creating the stories (witness the exec who suggested that Goliath ask the Magus to place the "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" spell upon him, rather than having the Magus make the offer first). But all the same, I do find myself leaning more towards your version of things - not just because you said them, but often because they simply make the most amount of sense to me.
One example that I will give here is the "Jon Canmore = Castaway" idea, which you had in mind in writing "The Journey", but which "The Goliath Chronicles" didn't pick up on, making Castaway just some villainous businessman after the gargoyles for no apparent reason other than "motiveless malignity". I believe in Castaway and Jon Canmore being the same, not just because you said so, but because it makes more sense to me that way. For one thing, it gives a good explanation for why Castaway acts the way that he does in "The Journey", his reason for hating the gargoyles so much and wanting to ruthlessly kill Goliath; take away the "He's really Jon Canmore" bit, as your successors at The Goliath Chronicles did, and he becomes more of an unsolvable mystery. Also, I noticed a few clues to that in "The Journey" - his name, for example (the moment that I heard the name "Castaway" the first time that I watched "The Journey", I automatically thought of the Canmores, since they'd used surnames beginning with hard C's throughout "Hunter's Moon" for their aliases), and also the fact that, if you look closely enough at his Quarryman badge, you can see the three red scratches of the Hunter protruding from beneath it. But at any rate, I do feel that, even without your own words, the notion that Castaway is really Jon makes the most convincing explanation for him.
Plus there's his last line: "Dream of me, Goliath! Dream of me!" said with a Scotish accent ala Canmore as opposed to Castaway's (phony) English accent.
In "Hunter's Moon", when Demona's looking over Robyn Canmore/Correy's references, she mentions that they come from Florence, Edinburgh, and the Sorbonne. What I found interesting about this part is that the three flashbacks in "Hunter's Moon" take place in Scotland (where Edinburgh is - although the flashback in question did not actually take place in Edinburgh, of course), Florence, and Paris (and the Sorbonne is in Paris). Was this deliberate?
In your opinion, was there a streak of cowardice in the Canmores? I've wondered about that for several reasons. For one thing, there's their habit of wearing masks or hoods in their "Hunter" role, which Goliath definitely views as cowardice in "The Journey". Also, I noticed some definite marks of it in the behavior of Duncan, Canmore, and Jon Canmore/Castaway. Duncan plots against the lives of the members of Clan Moray purely on his own unbased fears that they may attempt to overthrow him and seize the Scottish throne for themselves and the words of three old hags, and uses a hired assassin (Gillecomgain) to do his dirty work. He attempts to destroy Demona's clan in their stone sleep in 1040 while they are helpless and defenceless. When he goes up against Macbeth in battle, he tries to win through having his sidekick Macduff stab him in the back. Canmore, similarly, when he "slays" Macbeth, doesn't do so in fair combat, but by stabbing him in the back as well while Macbeth is arguing with Demona. Jon Canmore keeps on backing down whenever he has the opportunity to stand up for the gargoyles, and takes the final step of becoming Castaway after placing the blame of his maiming his brother on the gargoyles rather than taking the responsibility on his own shoulders. So, to repeat my question, does cowardice run in the Canmore family?
Yep. And I wouldn't necessarily leave out Jason or Robyn either, though perhaps the cowardice takes a different form with them.
okay greg here is a question that you might find intelligent...
in the hunters moon part 2. we are in italy in 1492...THE HUNTER HAS A FLYING CONTRAPTION. THE ONLY ONE I KNOW THAT MADE A FLIGHT VEICHLE EVEN CLOSE TO THE IDEA OF FLIGHT WAS LEONARDO DA VINCI.
1. is leonardo da vinci the hunter in that flashback
2. if not, does leonardo know the hunters, or did the hunter steal his idea or what not.
3. if i am off the track on this can you explain where the hunter got that flight thing
2. There must be some connection.
3. You're not off track.
Me again. Why did Duncan choose to become the Hunter?
It gave him a psychological edge against his enemies.
I couldn't find this question anywhere but if I just missed it and it's there in the archives, feel free to ignore, so here it is....
In all the centuries that the Canmores were hunting Demona, did it ever occur to any of them that there was something strange about the fact that they were hunting the same gargoyle for centuries when gargoyles only have twice the lifespan of a human?(That's around 200 years right?)I know i'd think there was something odd going on.I mean, did they know she was immortal, or was this hunter thing something they followed blindly just because their ancestors did?
Thanks for your time, and the show.
They thought she (and all gargoyles) were demons. They didn't know about the half-speed aging thing.
someone told me that jon canmore and jon castaway are the same person, and it makes alot of sense, but i just want to know....is it true???
i know you didnt have a large hand in the Goliath Chronicles, ( Youre probably still having nightmares over the way they screwed up your master plan) but you probably know, or perhaps influenced this....
Yes, in my head. I did write and edit "The Journey", where Castaway is introduced.
You said that the Gargoyles living in the year 2158 are barley tolarated and evils like the Illuminati society and he Quarrymen would still be around. For example the Klu Klux Klan is still around today but KKK attacks on visible minorities is extremly rare or almost never happen. would Quarrymen attacks on Gargoyles be rare or common in 2158?
Before Gillecomgain's murder of Findlaech in 1020, had he carried out other assassinations with human (as opposed to gargoyle) victims? I ask this because of Findlaech's line, "You are the Hunter... but who sent you to hunt me?", which suggests that the Hunter had gained a reputation for that sort of thing.
Bodhe's son (Gruoch's brother) MacBodhe died somewhere in there. But I don't have my references here at home, so I can't remember when in the chronology MacBodhe's murder occured.
But perhaps it explains a little bit about Bodhe's behaviour.
I was thinking recently about Demona and the Canmores/Hunters, and it dawned on me that it's a lot like the Montagues and Caputlets of 'Romeo and Juliet'. Both involve two 'families' battling each other over a past greivance, one whose cause unfortunately became lost in the past (for Gargoyles, it's some kid getting slashed in the face, and we never learn the cause in 'R&J'). In both, the drive for revenge becomes the driving force for keeping the feud going. It's kind of tragic that in both stories, something as low as vengence causes so much pain on both sides. So, was that intentional or did I just come across one of those universal themes?
Largely the universal theme thing. The obvious piece that's missing to make it truly parallel R&J is the young lovers. And I don't think that Jason & Elisa really fill those rolls, wouldn't you agree?
I was going to do a much more dead-on R&J riff in NEW OLYMPIANS with Terry Chung and Sphinx.
In your opinion, do the general public and the authorities in New York know that John Castaway is the leader of the Quarrymen? (I don't mean that he's Jon Canmore, but simply that the "John Castaway" who first appeared in New York after the events in "Hunter's Moon" and the Quarryman leader are the same person). Or does Castaway go for the same "hidden identities" in the Quarrymen as the Ku Klux Klan go for?
John Castaway represents the Quarrymen's "PUBLIC FACE", i.e. it's political arm. But because he wears a mask, no one can tie him specifically to any specific damage the Quarrymen have done.
Hi mr. Weisman,
I noticed that in Hunter's Moon 1-2-3, Jon and Robyn weren't wearing any gloves while in they were in their Hunter suit. Was that dangerous, since they are wanted criminals and the authorities could use their finger prints to track them?
Fingerprints help you identify, not track. Big airships and costumes help with that too.
What stops the Quarrymen from shooting the gargoyles during the day? They sleep outside and it would be easy for
them to shoot them with a gun in a helicopter, without stepping a foot on the castle. Do the gargoyles roost inside
now, as a consequence of the danger of being smashed?
I think whenever possible, the Quarrymen would prefer to maintain a lower profile. Blowing things up by helicopter isn't ideal when they can use a hammer.
Also, as you may recall, the castle has its own defense systems. But the issue of whether the Gargs could continue to sleep outside would have been dealt with post-"Journey".
1)Will any of the Canmores/Castaways ever take up the Hunter's mask again?
2)If yes, how long will they have it for, a night, a month?
1. Yes. Robyn in BAD GUYS.
Would John Casterway ever reconcile with his sibiling
Jason and Robin Canmore?
Ever's a long time.
I was thinking today about the Quarrymen and the Ku Klux Klan. One of my favorite quotes in "The Journey" was Goliath's "Brave words for a man who hides his face behind a hood".
We were discussing the Klan in US History today and I got really worked up and went into a rant about how if the Klan are a bunch of cowards who are too afraid to show their faces. I'm half Jewish so I take everything the Klan does personally (I would even if not). And then I thought about Goliath's quote, and it really spoke to me in that scene. It was brilliant. I applaud you for it.
Did you have these sentiments in mind when you wrote "The Journey"?
You said that the Canmore name would have died out and there would be Castaways and Monmouths,but what name would Jason Canmore, his wife and his kids,(if he had any) take?
I don't yet know whether Jason had any kids.
1) Who has more money, Macbeth or Xanatos?
2) How much money do the Canmores have?
3) Just how much did the Pack profit financially from their tv show?
1. From a liquid standpoint, Xanatos. Macbeth may have some extremely valuable items, that would be worth a fortune if he was willing to part with them, but he's largely not...
2. An extremely large trust.
3. Quite a bit. But not as much as Xanatos did.
I had a couple of questions regarding the double date you said you planned on sending Elisa and Goliath on.
1)In your mind, would Goliath have been dating Delilah out of any real interest in her as a person, or would it only have been a superficial attraction based on her resemblance to Elisa?
2)Obviously, Elisa wouldn't be thrilled about the idea of Goliath dating anyone. Do you think, however, that she would resent Goliath (either consciously or subconciously) for dating Delilah, who basically looks like a gargoyle version of herself? I ask this mainly due to the events of "The Mirror." Goliath's statment about not recognizing her beauty when she was human, coupled with his reluctance to answer her question as to whether he thought she was ugly, could be interpreted to mean that he only found her beautiful when she had a gargoyle's form.(Granted, I think you stated previously that this wasn't what you meant for him to be saying, but it could be interpreted that way)
3)You said you were considering Jason as a potential date for Elisa. Given the fact that Elisa told him in Hunter's Moon 3 that there was someone in her life who would always come before him, wouldn't it be uncharacteristically cruel for her to then turn around and make him think he had a chance with her after all?
1. I think it would have had a lot MORE to do with the fact that Elisa WANTED him to "see other people, gargoyles, whatever..." Delilah is the only real option in NYC at this time.
2. O.K., for starters, saying "they're dating" is pushing it. Rather, Elisa and Goliath experiment with not seeing each other. Their dates (for this one night) are basically being used a bit. So, yes, I think seeing Goliath with Delilah would disturb Elisa. And frankly, seeing Delilah period is just disturbing for Elisa. But seeing Elisa with another man would also disturb Goliath. They're trying to make the best of their mutual decision that seeing each other is impossible. But let's just say the date does not go smoothly.
And by the way, you're misrepresenting me with regards to "The Mirror". I think in fact that Goliath did NOT find Elisa sexually attractive until "The Mirror" allowed him to see her through a gargoyle's eyes. There was always chemistry there. But it was based on (a) her physical attraction to him and (b) a strong emotional and spiritual connection. After "The Mirror", Goliath also maintained a physical attraction to Elisa. He was no longer blinded by her human characteristics.
3. Would it be any crueler for her to go out with Morgan, who had no idea about her relationship with G? At least Jason wouldn't be blind-sided. Anyway, she isn't trying to be cruel. This is a sincere attempt. As far as her rational mind is concerned, the guy might really have a chance if things work out. I'm not saying there's no potential for cruelty involved. Welcome to the world of dating. But in any case, it's one date. A first date. So let's not over-react.
1.What happened to Canmores mother?
I'd like to apologize ahead of time if this question has been asked but I checked the archives and I couldn't find it. Soooo...
Would Jon Canmore/Castaway keep trying to kill Demona if he found out she was immortal, since he seems to be VERY hell bent on killing her? Would he refuse to believe it, and try anyway?
He'd keep trying. But he's sophisticated enough to try methods that he felt had at least a chance of working. These methods would depend on what he knows at any given time. But, hell, Thailog found a way. ("Sanctuary") He failed, but he found a way. If he can do it, so can someone else.
Hey hey. I still remember seeing the first episode of Gargoyles. I guess I was about 9 or so. I still get goosebumps when I watch the intro. And I wasnt surprised to read that you work on the ST series. I've watched it too from its first broadcast (in my area anyway). I think I've only missed it 3 times but seeing how they dont play the episodes in any specific order odds are I havent missed anything I havent already seen. But onto my question. Can you sum up the Goliath Chronacles for me? I never saw them since for a while I didnt have cable and dont currently have toon disney. Thanks.
Erin says: I think that was a very good question. I have a friend at school and his name is Nicholas. And he likes the GARGOYLES show too. And Nicholas has a nickname, and his nickname is Nick.
Greg says: I'll sum up "The Journey" which was the first episode of THE GOLIATH CHRONICLES: Goliath is brooding about the loss of the Clock Tower and about how humanity seems to be perpetually at odds with the Gargoyles. He visits Elisa. And they are attacked by Quarrymen, a KKK-esque organization that hates Gargoyles. Elisa & Goliath survive, and Goliath realizes his Journey isn't over. (A lot more happens, but you asked me to sum up.) As for the other 12 episodes of Chronicles, well, I had nothing to do with them. They aren't cannon in my mind. And I'm not qualified to describe them to you. Ask in a comment room.
On the topic of Hunters:
1) For those Hunters over the years who got married: What kind of relationship did they have with their spouse? Was there an understanding of the Hunter's need to kill mythical creatures, or did the Hunter keep it secret?
2) Were there other instances before Jason, Robyn, and Jon in which more than one Hunter existed at the same time?
3) Were there any more female Hunters besides Robyn, or was she the first?
4) Macbeth is an example of someone who was not part of the Canmore feud, but still took on the Hunter identity. Were there any more?
1. You're generalizing. There's an individual story in every Hunter.
2. Probably not, otherwise they aren't unique. But I don't pretend to know ALL the stories yet.
3. I doubt she was first.
(For once, I'm not trying to be cagy. But there have been a lot of years worth of Hunters. I haven't tapped in to all of it yet.)
We were having a discussion about Gillecomgain in the comment room this week, and I thought that I'd ask you for your opinion on it. In your thoughts, was Demona's attack upon Gillecomgain the cause of his becoming the Hunter, or more of a catalyst? I felt that much of Gillecomgain's "career choice" came from his own internal issues (he seemed to have a strong yearning for power, and also had a very unsympathetic father), but others feel that it was more thanks to Demona than to any "inner darkness". What's your thoughts on him?
I think Demona gave him drive and focus.
But I think his father gave him the darkness.
Do the Canmores (or the Castaways of the future) see themselves as kind of Van Helsing figures? A family dedicating their lives to the pursuit and destruction of a race of beings most people don't believe in.
No. Because, by 1996 most people do believe.
During the Weird Sisters' barrage of questions toward MacBeth when they were trying to persuade him not to kill Demona, they said something like, "Did your own death save Luarch from…" argh I can't think of Duncan's son's name, but you know who I mean. My question is, what exactly happened in that battle? If Luarch was killed, then the Canmores claimed the crown again… If that's true, then how long was the Canmore family on the throne? It's kind of scary to think of the Hunters as kings…
The Canmore line ruled Scotland for generations.
Another episode by episode ramble. Feedback encouraged.
So here's where all that great continuity got us in major trouble.
The episodes were all designed to play in a certain order. But I didn't tell my bosses that in advance. I know it sounds sneaky, but it wasn't really. We wrote the darn things and sent them off in order. It never occured to me they wouldn't be able to come back and air in order. I mean, how could a newer episode get the jump on an older one? How could an older episode not be ready before a newer one? Then the footage came back on "Enter Macbeth".
This was the first episode not animated in Japan. And immediately we knew we were in trouble. I'm not talking about the version you all have seen. The one that aired. I'm talking about stuff you never saw. Much of the original footage we got was unusable. This wasn't about just calling retakes. This wasn't about us bitching how "Thrill" wasn't as well animated as "Awakening". This was a major disaster. So my bosses said: "Air the next one." And I responded, "We can't."
And not just because they were all designed to air in order. It was a horrible coincidence, but this episode, this episode that was unairable, was a tentpole. Yeah, if Thrill or Temptation had been reordered it would have been sad. Same with "The Edge" and "Long Way To Morning". But big deal, right? Better to get a new episode out and not make the audience deal with repeats this early in the season. (Remember, we had aired our first five episodes in one week. This was only week five. In those days, week five was considered way too early in the year for reruns.)
But this was the follow-up to Elisa's injury. It was important to us that we continue our policy of "repercussions". We put her on crutches to show that a gunshot wasn't something that was solved in twenty-two minutes. This was an ongoing recovery. If you pulled the crutches out by airing Edge next, you blew out the sense of repercussions.
But that wasn't the clincher. Of course, the clincher was the Clock Tower. This was the episode where the Gargs were "banished" from the castle and moved to the Clock Tower. That was a major shift. If we cut straight to Edge, the audience would be lost. Fortunately, Gary was convinced. In a way, I was lucky that our first crisis of order came on such a pivotal "tentpole" episode. We couldn't reorder these. So we went with reruns. But it was a lesson learned. And it would effect the way we approached the second season.
But meanwhile, we had the problem at hand. We couldn't reanimate the entire show. So we picked shots to redo judiciously. There are still some awful looking scenes. When Goliath says, "How Dare You?!" to Elisa, he looks like an Animaniacs parody of Goliath. And that sarcophogus/iron maiden thing that Goliath follows Macbeth through looks like a prop out of CHIP N DALE'S RESCUE RANGERS. (Another perfectly good series, but with a slightly different art style, if you know what I mean.) Or how about the GIANT remote that Macbeth pulls from his duster in order to summon his ship? "Enter Macbeth" is still, as aired, the worst looking episode of the first season. And that really killed Frank and I, because we both really loved this story. We were sure that the bad animation would kill any interest in Macbeth. The fact that generally, the character did catch hold of fandom's collective imagination is a true testament to the work of Steve Perry, Michael Reaves, John Rhys-Davies and Jamie Thomason. And, oh, yes... William Shakespeare.
The weak picture forced us to use a lot of little tricks to get a final cut. One thing we did, which I regret, is reuse dialogue. Elisa says "You aren't safe here" like three times. And it isn't three different takes. It's just the exact same take reprinted and reused. Lex & Brooklyn also reuse lines to get Bronx to find Goliath. That sort of thing drives me nuts.
There is one really nice moment in the animation. When Macbeth chooses his sword off the wall, the reflection effect is quite sweet. And I also like the down shot of Bronx running right down the middle of Broadway (the street not the gargoyle). I also love how Goliath makes no attempt to hide. That really spoke to the Gargoyles attitude about living among humans. They wouldn't hold press conferences, but they would not cower.
Anyway, we ran reruns. Awakenings. And obviously all five episodes on five consecutive weeks. That might have been a good thing for people who had heard about the show by word of mouth in week two or later and needed to catch up. But for anyone who had been following the show from its premiere, it was a long time to wait for new episodes. By the time we came back, so much time had passed since "Deadly Force" that we felt the need to put a "Previously on Gargoyles" at the head of the episode. Another trick I cribbed from HILL STREET BLUES. Cartoons rarely did that sort of thing. Sure multi-parters had to. But single episodes... For some reason, it made me feel very grown up. (Which only proves how immature I really am.) The "Previously" also allowed us to cut 30 more seconds of bad looking footage out of the episode. That little bonus was something I'd remember for season two as well.
As we pushed guns in the previous episode, this one is laced with the imagery and language of home. What is it? What makes it? What price is one willing to pay to keep or secure it? There are four homes depicted. Well, really five. The Gargoyles' castle. Xanatos' prison. Macbeth's mansion. The Clock Tower. And the Castle again, once it is reclaimed by Xanatos and thus becomes a very, very different place.
I tried to make sure, as much as possible, that every episode had that kind of underlying theme. (I recently tried with very limited success to do the same thing in MAX STEEL. Someone asked me once, why the one-word S-Titles for all the Max Steel episodes. They were my attempt to make me and the writers focus on the theme of each story.)
And how do all these homes turn out? Macbeth is so obsessed that he loses his home to a fire. Xanatos finally gets out of prison. (Not on Halloween by the way, or that would make the dates depicted in Double Jeopardy innacurate. Obviously, Halloween was circled on his calendar because the guy just loves Halloween. And after all, Owen specifically says in a LATER scene that Xanatos has one week left before he gets out. The wall calendar had shown only a few days.) The Gargoyles lose the castle, gain the clock tower, but realize that home is literally where the heart is. And Xanatos... well all other concerns of Grimorum and gargoyle of destruction and competition pale next to the simple pleasure of being back home.
And how many of you were suprised that the Gargoyles lost the castle? That was supposed to be another pretty shocking development. I mean, sure, Batman might lose the Batcave for an episode, but for 56 episodes? When Goliath said "We'll be back to claim that which is ours" at the end, did most of you think he'd be back next week? Next month? By the time, the gang finally did return in chapter 65, did anyone still remember Goliath's vow?
I've discussed this before, but Macbeth's origins (at least in terms of our series) were (ironically) an early attempt to play the notion of THE HUNTER. I was looking for someone human who could physically take on the Gargoyles as prey. Someone smart, with an agenda. We actually started with the notion of trying to create our own KRAVEN THE HUNTER type character. But it quickly moved in its own direction. Frankly, away from Kraven and more toward BATMAN. In those days, we were constantly being told that we would be accused of ripping off Batman. So Frank, Michael and I decided to create a villain who, at least in M.O. would be our Batman.
I had a semi-separate idea to add a human to the cast who was from Goliath's time. Thus creating a good thematic nemesis or opposite for him. (The key to creating a good villain, in my opinion.) But this villain would have lived through the centuries. So that he was familiar with the very latest in technology. This dove-tailed with our anti-Batman, and was also exactly how we viewed Demona. So it soon became clear to Michael and I that the two characters must be connected in some way. That suggested that he shouldn't merely be 1000 years old. He should be Scottish as well. All that was left was a name. And given my love of Shakespeare, I'm surprised it took me so long to figure it out. Our nemesis was Macbeth himself. An immortal Scottish King. What Scottish King was more immortal than Macbeth? More mortal too for that matter.
This was the beginning of countless Shakespearian references that I would either slide (or force) into the show, or that the writers would stick in knowing I was a sucker for them. And I love the little exchange between Lex & Brooklyn...
LEX: "Wasn't "Macbeth" the name of that play by that new writer Shakespeare that Goliath was talking about?"
BROOKLYN: "Have you read it?"
LEX: "No. Have you?"
BROOKLYN: "No. But maybe we should."
This was my little way of trying to encourage our viewers to read or at least learn about the play. If they wanted to know who Macbeth was, it wouldn't hurt to go to the primary source.
And at the time, Shakespeare was my primary source for Macbeth. This was long before Tuppence Macintyre and Monique Beatty did all their research for me for "City of Stone". Back then, the only Macbeth I knew about was Shakespeare's.
We gave him a sense of honor, but a twisted one. And we gave him a very interesting motivation. I didn't yet know the particulars, but this guy was after Demona in a major way. He had stained glass windows in his home depicting the two of them. He was the man who named her. It was all pretty intriguing stuff to me. I love the exchange between him and Goliath. Goliath is a pawn. Mac wants the queen and believes that endangering Goliath is the surest way to ensnare Demona. And how does Goliath respond? By gum, if he doesn't laugh -- MANIACALLY!! And watch how the tables turn. Macbeth is not infallible and suddenly Goliath has him on the defensive. Goliath even uses a MACE!! Great stuff.
Incidentally, we had in the script described Macbeth as wearing a thin layer of exo-armor. And Goliath was supposed to dig his claws into it. Macbeth would escape by detaching from the armor. Instead, the artists did the bit with the duster coat. But I remembered the claws in armor thing and eventually found a place for it... in HUNTER'S MOON, PART THREE.
Finally, watching the episode tonight, my five year old daughter said she spotted the Mona Lisa on Macbeth's wall. I didn't see it. But I believe her. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the original. Too bad about that fire.
Since you mentioned Thor in your last batch of responses, that reminded me of something that I'd been meaning to ask you for some time. You mentioned that the Eye of Odin came from a "Gargoyles" computer game (and added that you thought that the folks who did the computer game had a better, more Norse, design for the Eye than did the series). I read that in the computer game, they had a "Thor" robot as an opponent for Goliath at one point, armed with a high-tech hammer. Was the hammer an at least partial inspiration for the Quarrymen's hammers in "The Journey"?
If so, it was pretty subconscious. As I don't remember the Thor robot or the hammer, even with you mentioning it now. Of course, I never played the game.
But frankly, I think the hammers were a natural extension of the whole Quarrymen/Freemason idea. What's a gargoyles natural enemy? A hammer.
Sometimes a hammer is just a hammer.
A couple of questions about the Quarrymen.
1. What is the relationship between them and the authorities in New York? While obviously the local government figures in Manhattan don't know that the gargoyles are actually a race, and therefore wouldn't interpret the Quarrymen as a hate group, there is the fact that these people could be viewed as vigilantes, are armed with potentially dangerous high-tech weaponry, and their leader is clearly the unstable sort. Would the New York authorities be willing to tolerate them?
2. You mentioned that the Quarrymen would still be around in 2158. What sort of legal status do they have by then? Would they have become more of a criminal organization, like the Pack, by that time, outside the law and the mainstream public, or would they have some fleeting legitimacy left?
1. Not Matt.
2. Legal status? Again, I have always seen them as a KKK parallel. It never ever quite goes away.
Allan Cumming was the voice of Castaway in "The Journey"? I thought it was Scott Cleverdon. Why the cast change?
Scott was massively unavailable at the time. So was Marina Sirtis, forcing us to recast Alan in the roll of Jon Canmore/John Castaway and Tress MacNeill in the roll of Margot Yale. Both Alan and Tress were terrific, but I must admit I was sorry we weren't able to use the originals.
Okay, some stuff about the Canmores:
We now know that Robyn and Dingo would've married and had kids under the Monmouth name. Ditto with Jon, some unknown woman, and the Castaway name. And that the Canmore name would've died out. So...
1)What about Jason? Did he never marry, or marry and not have kids?
2)a>Who does Jon marry?
b>Is she anti-gargoyle as well?
(BTW, this next thing is more of a comment than a question, so I'm not trying to break the 'seperate topics on seperate posts' rule.)
You used to read "Bone"? How COULD you stop?! (I'm addicted, myself. I love it!) Anyway, there are two people that I REALLY admire for their ideas: Jeff Smith, for his artistic creativeness(who else could've thought up a rat creature?) as well as his storyline; and, of course, you, for combining so many legends and myths into one great believable story. I just thought it cool that one was a fan of the other. I'll have to write Jeff and find out if he's every watched "Gargoyles" ^_^
Thanx for everything!
1. I don't want to answer this now.
Actually, a comment on a separate topic should be posted separately. So what if it's not a question? I may want to comment on the comment. (And come on, weren't you inviting just that.) How hard is it to post these things separately?
Anyway, I don't recall if Jeff Smith had ever seen Gargoyles. I do know that when I was a Disney TV Executive, I tried to get Jeff to work with us on a BONE series. He and I had a number of pleasant phone conversations, but ultimately, he had his heart set on a feature film. As a TV Exec, I couldn't offer that.
According to actual history, Canmore was married twice: the first time to Ingebjorg, the widow of Earl Thorfinn of Orkney (presumably the same Thorfinn that you mentioned once here of having planned to bring him into "City of Stone" but being unable to find room for him), and the second to Princess Margaret of England, one of the survivors of the old English royal family that was deposed by William the Conqueror (also known as St. Margaret of Scotland). In your vision, which marriage were Jason, Robyn, and Jon Canmore descended from - or did you work out that part yet?
I was thinking of a less legitimate heir.
by 2158 you said that gargoyles would have been accepted what would have happened to jon castaway and the qaurreymen?
I didn't say accepted. Perhaps tolerated would be a better word. The Quarrymen would still exist. Castaway himself would be long dead.
1.Why (medical) is Jason paralysed?
2.Is there any chance left, that one day due medical progress an operation could make him able to walk again?
Btw. : Happy Birthday!
1. Spinal trauma.
2. This may sound flip, but I don't mean for it to: If Christopher Reeve manages to walk again, then Jason can too. But if our science can't solve that problem, then I'm not going to let science in the Garg Universe solve it either. Which doesn't mean, Jason can't put on an exo-skeleton right now. But if we're talking about walking under his own power... then not until we crack it here.
And thanks for the Birthday wishes. (Of course, you wished 'em back in September and it's February now, but they are still appreciated. And I am catching up a little.)
1. How old is The Director?
2. What are the ages of the rest of the BAD GUYS cast?
1. Uh, don't hold me to this, but I'd say 50.
2. Robyn Canmore was 14 in 1980.
Dingo was in his mid-thirties in 1994.
Matrix was born in 1995.
Fang was in his early thirties in 1994.
Yama was in his late twenties (biologically) in 1996.
When "City of Stone" was first written and produced were you planning that the Hunter legacy would continue through the Canmore family or had you thought that Macbeth had taken up the mask and was now the last of the Hunters?
Well, it's more complicated then that.
"City of Stone" was originally pitched as a Direct to Video movie. My boss, Gary Krisel, immediately rejected it as a video. (Though, obviously, he had no problem with it being done as episodes.) He felt that a Gargoyle video needed to focus on our heroes -- and I had to admit that "City" was really the story of two of our villains: Macbeth and Demona. Goliath and company have supporting roles at best.
But Gary liked the HUNTER angle. So immediately, Michael Reaves and I came up with the basic story idea for "Hunter's Moon". We made a sincere effort to make both multi-parters stand independent of each other. "City" came first, but the two ideas were born so close together, I can't really give you a definitive answer to your either/or question except to say (in my smart-ass fashion) "Both."
Dear Mr. Wiseman:
What became of the new hunters right after the end of Gargoyles' 2nd Season? I mean did Jason and her sister went to jail for destroying the police station? Was their other brother responsible for creation the Quarrymen? Did the Quarrymen forced Jason to use his technology on the Gargoyles? Did Jason became a civil rights activist or what?
I hope I'm not asking to much. I'm just curious.
Jason went to a halfway house where he could rehab and serve out his sentence under some semblance of restriction.
Robyn was coerced into leading the Redemption Squad (aka Bad Guys).
Jon changed his name to John Castaway and became the founder of the Quarrymen.
Jason would be the subject of Jon, Robyn and Elisa's on-going interest -- as he personally struggled to redirect his life.
1. Would the Canmore as Hunter's dynasty still exist in some form in 2158?
2. Would we have seen Canmore/Castaway descendents in G2158?
1 & 2. The Canmores would be gone. But the Monmouths and the Castaways would survive -- in opposition.
The Quarrymen would still exist.
In HUNTER'S MOON 3, the date (September 28) that you picked for the confrontation between Charles Canmore and Demona in Paris, did you have a specific reason for picking that date or was it just chosen at random?
(I wonder because September 28 1980 was my 2nd birthday and when I saw the date on the screen, I immediately sat up.)
My birthday is September 28th too. Although I wasn't two in 1980.
What do you you think would be the reaction of the Canmore siblings (especially Jon) if they found out that Demona literally killed their father with one hand tied behind her back? (She was holding onto the Praying Gargoyle at the time he attacked her.)
Gee. I think they'd dance a jig.
Whaddaya think their reactions would be?