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On the Voices from the Eyrie podcast, you talked about how Xanatos isn't petty, and something funny occurred to me. You know who can be extremely petty? Goliath. For starters, he does have a thirst for revenge. I remember a discussion once in the CR about the characters' vices, and we decided Demona and Goliath have the same one, that being vengence. The difference is that Goliath usually keeps it under wraps, probably because he's able to admit when he's in the wrong and de-escalate.
However, G's pettiness shows up in other ways, too. In Deadly Force, he looks very smug about blowing up Xanatos's fancy guns. He gets jealous and overly protective of both Elisa and Angela at times. But my favorite is in The Edge, where he shouts at Xanatos for a while and then runs off, but not before smashing his street lamp. I don't know if that moments was intended to be funny, but it makes me bust out laughing every time. What did you think you were accomplishing, Goliath? Just venting, I guess. And then it even gets a follow-up in The Cage where Derek knocks Xanatos's desk lamp over. He can also be quite petty, or maybe it was just his cat DNA compelling him to push things off of tables.
Anyway, just a bit of disjointed praise/analysis. Summary: You can make characters more compelling by giving the heroes some villainous traits and the villains some heroic traits. This show is still teaching me stuff a quarter century later.
Thanks. That was the plan. Glad it worked/is working. ;)
This is more a thought than an all-out question.
In Season One, we see Goliath reading in the libraries at both Castle Wyvern (after the gargoyles' re-awakening) and the public library adjoining the clock tower. We know, also, that he'd been reading the classics (Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky, specifically).
In the archives, you offered a list of a few major "classics" writers: Shakespeare, Homer, Cervantes, Jane Austen, Charles Dickens, Thomas Hardy, William Faulkner, and Ernest Hemingway. As I looked over that list, I noticed that all of those writers, except Homer, lived after the Wyvern Massacre, meaning that Goliath first had the opportunity to read them after he re-awakened. (Furthermore, I've read that Homer's writings were unavailable in western Europe during medieval times - even Dante, when mentioning him as one of the great poets of classical antiquity in the "Inferno", knew him only by reputation - so Goliath most likely wouldn't have had the opportunity to read the Iliad and the Odyssey before the thousand-year sleep.) It gives a strong sense of just how much of world literature he'd be encountering for the first time. (Not to mention, as I remarked once, that the size of those libraries in both the castle and adjoining the clock tower must have seemed miraculous by tenth century standards, thanks to the printing press.)
I've also reflected that some of those classics must have presented worlds as initially foreign to Goliath as modern-day Manhattan. Homer and Shakespeare's writings would have probably presented a reasonably familiar environment, but the more relatively recent authors would have been another matter (the world depicted in Jane Austen's works would have seemed, indeed, very different from Manhattan as well as from tenth century Scotland)
For that matter, since you included Thomas Hardy on the list, I wonder what Goliath would have made of the cameo of an architectural gargoyle in "Far From the Madding Crowd", if he'd read that one....
I do think it's fascinating to think about Goliath's reactions to various works. Frankly, if it was me... I think I'd be hit with near paralysis as to where and with what to start.
What do you think of shipping? What's the most surprising pairing you've seen?
1. If it makes fans happy, I have no objection. And I say that being very aware of the fact that sometimes fans ship characters so hard that when the show doesn't go that direction, they get upset. That's a tad frustrating. But I can live with it, if they can.
2. Um. Probably Demona and Elisa. I don't know where the heck that one comes from.
Hi Greg. Decided to watch Gargoyles now that it was on Disney+(or at least it was on at the time of posting this). Really enjoyed seeing again and Iâm happy itâs now on a service that may give it more attention again in the future. Always hoping for more content someday.
I have a few episodes I really love (and some I really like and some I kinda donât care much for. Canât all be winners). One of my favorites is Future Tense. What I enjoy most is how you can re-watch, after knowing the reveal by the end and pick up so, so many details that make it so much more enjoyable, or at least for me.
Unlike the typical World Tour adventure, which usually open with us already inside the new local the group will be visiting, this one opens with the group sailing through the fog, Goliath lamenting how homesick he feels and wishing the journey will be over soon for them.
You wonder if Puck chose this moment to strike when Goliath was being particularly vulnerable emotionally or if he just got lucky. That also got me thinking, how exactly does Puck circumventing Oberonâs law to pull off his dream trick? The dream itself I can get since itâs âonly a dreamâ and not real interference. But that lightning bolt seemed pretty direct.
We arrive at the Future Tense Manhattan and thereâs moment where you wonder if this is real or not. I canât remember if kid me knew that this was all fake, but then again I was particularly genre savvy at that age. Normally when you see these kinds of horrible futures, thereâs gonna be a reveal that itâs a dream or illusion.
I think one of the most underlying disturbing things about the Future Tense world is how well Puck seems to know Goliath (and the rest of the cast) to play out this dark fantasy. Subtle hints are everywhere
When they arrive, they are attacked so no time to ask questions. Both Elisa and Angela are captured. Now Elisaâs capture is important as she is always a good way to motivate Goliath into action, but Angelaâs departure is crucial, because Puck doesnât know anything about her. He canât guess her character well enough to know how she would react. I could see Angela suddenly breaking down and begging Goliath to the Phoenix Gate to save them, except that is not the Angela we know. Like Goliath, she would rather take on problems in the present and not the past.
Next, we see Bluestone and Claw. A weird paring to say the least. I wonder what the significance of those two (if any) there was to Puckâs story? Claw canât talk so I guess heâs an easy character to mimic, and Bluestone is an ally, but also not someone Goliath is emotionally attached to, so he works as good way of easing Goliath into the horrors to come.
Next, we meet the Manhattan Clan. Hudson is gone and we know this hits Goliath hard. I think a part of him has always still seen Hudson as the leader of the clan. Someone Goliath could always relay on for guidance and now he is gone.
Brooklyn is a harden and bitter leader, hating Goliath for putting him in his position. This also makes me wonder, how aware Goliath was of the fact Brooklyn was leading the clan in his absence. Maybe it did cross his mind, but I kinda like the idea that Golaiath didnât fully realized that Brooklyn must have taken charge in his absence. And of course he is now with Demona, someone he once hated, which tells Goliath that Brooklyn must have gone through pretty messed up stuff to be with her.
Then we have Broadway, the heart and soul of the clan. Puck doesnât kill him, but cripple him by making him blind, yet despite his suffering he didnât lose hope that Goliath would come back.
Lexington is a cyborg and the real villain of the piece. He always was a favorite of mine, mostly because I just liked how he had the most distinct design out of the Manhattan clan. And again, we see Puckâs understanding everyoneâs character come into play. Lexington has more of an ambitious streak than the rest, a sense of drive. This fits well his intelligence, his thirst for knowledge. He doesnât just want to protect; he wants to achieve. He wants to learn because he wants to do something with the knowledge he gains.
Brooklyn name drops Talon, Maggie and Coldstone as being dead, again to further disturb Goliath as much as possible. He doesnât mention Thaliog, likely because Goliath wouldnât be that upset over him.
Another character that is never mentioned in this story is Macbeth, which I canât help but find to be odd. I always wondered why he is left out? I could see him becoming some kind of evil general serving Xanatos. But then again, how could you spin that to be Goliathâs fault specifically?
Fox is also absent. Maybe she gone to help further the idea of Xanatosâs apparent newfound loss of humanity. Owen is not around either. Puck obviously wonât screw with his magnum opus.
âI knew Xanatos was evil, but killing his own sonâ
Maybe Iâm reaching a little here, but I think it was at this moment that Puck realized he had made mistake with his portrayal of Xanatos and decided to make Lex the villain. In this story, he had built Xanatos (or the Xanatos Program) to be this big ultimate evil. But Goliath, both here and later, is able to unknowingly see through this ruse, because he knows Xanatos well enough to know that he isnât this petty or destructive or power mad. This cannot be the real Xanatos, because the real one wouldnât do these things, meaning itâs some kind of imposter, which of course it is, in more ways than one. Lies within lies.
And again, this is just an interpretation, but maybe Puck was underestimating Goliathâs opinion of Xanatos. Maybe he thought Goliath was readily and even happily believe Xanatos became this absolute monster? Maybe he thinks this fits Goliathâs sometimes strict black and white sense of morality. In the past I think it would, but Goliath has seen that the world isnât that simple, and neither are people. Much like with the ad-libbed line about Thailog, I think maybe Puck re-worked the story a little to make Lexington the villain, since that is more plausible than what he was doing with Xanatos. But again, maybe that is just me reaching.
By the time we get to the final battle in Cyberspace all the rules seem to be getting broken and continuity goes out the door for once, which makes sense in this context. By now we know more or less that this isnât real and something else is going on. Itâs one of my favorite moments animated. There are admittedly some episodes with a little questionable animation, but this episode couldnât have been done without such incredible sequences.
I imagine at the end, Goliath must be completely broken inside. He doesnât have the will to go on anymore, which is saying something, because I only think of one other occasion this has happened to him, which would be after the Wyvern Massacre. But he quickly recovers once he sees through Puckâs ruse. Sure, it all âfeltâ real as it happened, but thatâs the way a dream can be. It feels so raw and powerful as it happens in the moment, but once you start to feel awake again, the effect wears off. It was after all, only a dream. In those brief moments when Goliaths struggles to accept the shock of what he is seeing, like the scene with Hudsonâs statue, he must be telling himself that this has to some kind of nightmare.
Puck, of course, gets off scout free in this episode, which is why I help canât but enjoy him getting some well-deserved comeuppance in the Gathering.
Anywho, thatâs my ramble of one of favorite episodes. There are still many other episodes I love (Double Jeopardy, City of Stone, Awakening, the Mirror, Deadly Force, Kingdom), but Future Tense may be my absolute favorite for everything that it packs in, the striking animation and what I think makes it very scary in a real way; the future may actually be just as terrifying as you can imagine it to be.
I'm glad you like it. Puck was definitely adjusting the scenario as it played out, as needed. I did think that he had always planned to reveal Lex as the villain, but I like your interpretation, as well. And I'm fine letting everyone decide for themselves...
Hey, thanks for hours of entertainment through your shows. I just recently finished watching the canon run of Gargoyles on DVD through the library (Me and a friend greatly enjoyed the journey, and had a lot of fun watching it!) after growing up on your other shows, like Young Justice and Spectacular Spider-Man. So, thank you, and as Iâm new here, Iâd figure Iâd try and put a question that isnât quite so... obvious.
Did Elizaâs palate change much after the Avalon World Tour?
Um... sure.
Rewatched "Hunter's Moon" yesterday (Sunday) on DVD - all three parts.
I've mentioned before spotting a lot of mentions of hunting, usually applied to humans going after gargoyles with hostile intent, and it struck me that this made it appropriate that the Hunters would be the gargoyles' adversaries in the finale. (Well, the Disney Afternoon finale/Season Two finale.)
And it struck me that the Hunters were the most dangerous opponents that the gargoyles faced in modern times, judging by results. They blew up the clock tower, destroying the gargoyles' home, and then exposed them to the public. The former was partly undone by the gargoyles getting their old home (the castle) back by the end of the episode, but not the latter - now the gargoyles are facing an alarmed public (even though they're safe at the end - for the moment). None of the gargoyles' other adversaries in modern times have been able to inflict that much damage on them. To top it, you'd have to go back to 994 and the Wyvern Massacre.
A few things that struck me this time around:
Goliath and Elisa are actually openly speaking to each other and even sharing a brief embrace on board the passenger train, just after foiling the robbery; fortunately, the passengers apparently didn't notice that.
Hudson greets the returning gargoyles as "lads" - then quickly adding in "And lassie, of course", for Angela. It reminded me of his use of just "lads" for the younger gargoyles in "Possession" that I mentioned in my post on it - apparently he's getting more adjusted now to Angela's presence in the clan.
The trio's clash with Demona in Part One seems the last "trio action" in the series; they're increasingly split up (or else acting with the rest of the clan present) after this.
Lexington and Brooklyn's shared uneasy glances when they return to the clock tower with Goliath near the end of Part Two seemed all the stronger when I realized "the audience knows that Robyn and Jon survived Goliath's fight with them, but Lex and Brooklyn don't - from their perspective, Goliath had apparently killed those two."
Jon Canmore's cry about the gargoyles when he's facing Jason at the end, "They killed dad!", struck me as a sign of how (even before shooting Jason) he was losing it; it was Demona who killed Charles Canmore, none of the Manhattan clan were even present at the event, and Jon was there so he knows it.
Broadway shows how much his attitude towards reading has changed since the start of "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" when he's talking to Angela about how great the castle library is (and we'll see them there together in "The Journey").
This story really does seem like a good conclusion for the series in so many ways - the gargoyles are back in the castle again, their war with Xanatos is (seemingly) over, they'd defeated Demona's big scheme to wipe out humanity, Elisa finally admitted her feelings for Goliath and even kissed him. Except there's a big loose end with the gargoyles' existence being made public, and most of the New Yorkers aren't too happy about it. (Brooklyn's "And so it begins" remark does also support the feeling that the story could continue past this spot.) But it certainly makes a good season finale.
Oh, and I counted the number of "claw-mark transitions" in the entire two seasons during this review - 28 in all.
We were pretty happy with it.
New thoughts and observations on "Possession", which I also rewatched on DVD today.
Coldfire and Coldsteel's bodies are initially covered by cloths; while it serves the function of keeping their nature secret from the audience at first, it also does a good job of echoing the "Frankenstein" tone of Coldstone's introduction in "Re-Awakening".
When Goliath and Hudson return to the clock tower from patrol, Hudson initially says "lads" - and just that, with no mention that there should be a "lass" among them as well. We get an echo of this, I recall, in "Hunter's Moon Part One" when he addresses the clan as "lads", then remembers Angela and adds "lass" in; this moment brought that scene to mind.
Coldstone's line near the end about how "we truly lived again" echoed Goliath's "we live again" words in the opening narration, though I don't know if it was intentional.
It's a pretty safe bet that most everything is intentional. (Or that I will intentionally take credit for it.) But seriously, we were very aware of pushing call back moments throughout. I do that on every series I produce.
I watched "Turf" on DVD yesterday as well, but don't have anything new to say about it, so my new thoughts on "The Reckoning", which I watched with "Possession" on DVD today.
In Act I, Hudson warns Angela that her mother "is capable of anything". Angela later uses those exact words when confronting Demona in Act III.
Elisa gets bitten by a mosquito while in the Labyrinth; I wonder if that was the moment when Sevarius and Thailog acquired her DNA for Delilah; it'd certainly be a "playing fair with the audience" moment.
While Demona professes outrage over Angela's claim to be her daughter, her eyes aren't glowing red - and later we learn that she'd known Angela to be her daughter all along. The "eyes not glowing red" part makes a good hint to the audience that she was feigning anger and disbelief.
That mosquito is exactly when Elisa's DNA was taken for later use in creating Delilah.
Rewatched "Vendettas" today - this time around, I spotted what looked like a small village in the opening shot (near the former site of Castle Wyvern). A minor detail, I know, but I liked the discovery of a village or small town in the area.
Yep. Especially one that the Vikings haven't sacked for a century or ten.
Rewatched "The Gathering" (both episodes) on DVD today. A few new things I noticed about it.
A minor detail, but which I find touching: when Renard learns about Anastasia's remarriage,, he sadly clasps her hand.
The letter X is prominent among the Xanatoses: Xanatos, FoX, and AleXander. And then I thought of LeXington, who isn't one of the family, but who's close to Alex, and who became Xanatos's secret successor in "Future Tense". (And there's that bit, also, in your "Gargoyles 2198" piece, about the Lexington-Xanatos Corporation.)
Goliath's homecoming makes a lovely contrast with "Future Tense", as he warmly embraces the overjoyed Brooklyn and Lexington (the two members of the clan who'd been bitter towards his late return in "Future Tense") and Hudson says "I knew you hadn't abandoned us." (While Broadway hugs Elisa, tying in with his being the closest to her among the trio, ever since "Deadly Force".)
One feature of Goliath's pondering the possibility that Avalon sent him to Manhattan to stop Oberon from taking Alex away; if his speculation was correct, that means that Avalon was, in a way, going against its lord and master. Though that made sense when I thought about it; without going too deeply into hypotheticals, I suspect that things would have not gone well for Avalon if Oberon *had* spirited Alex away (no way would his parents have accepted that), and Avalon would be sparing itself and its lord and master a lot of potential trouble in thwarting him.
You mentioned once that you wanted to have Puck break the fourth wall, but the rest of the production team objected to it. I noticed that he does come close, though, when he turns towards the camera while saying "I'm on a roll". (And when somebody *did* break the fourth wall, it was Brooklyn instead.)
At the very end, Broadway turns to stone shortly before the rest of the clan does.
Interesting observations. Thanks for all these, Todd.
Rewatched "Future Tense" on DVD today. Things I noticed this time on it.
Bronx looks sad when Hudson's death is revealed; given the bond the two had showed throughout the series, I thought if both fitting and touching (even if it's not really Bronx).
Goliath tells Brooklyn "we thought our odyssey was fated". I thought "odyssey" an appropriate term, since Odysseus spent twenty years away from Ithaca, and Goliath supposedly spent forty years away from Manhattan - and since gargoyles age at half the speed of humans, twenty years for humans would translate to forty years for gargoyles. (I'll admit I'm reaching here - and it feels odd to be linking Goliath to Odysseus when I'd normally think of comparing a different "Gargoyles" character to Odysseus - a fellow Greek trickster....)
The Xanatos Program's intention of using the "World Wide Net" to download itself on every computer marks one of the extremely few occasions I can think of where the Internet was alluded to on "Gargoyles"; the only other example that comes to mind was Sevarius receiving his instructions for "kidnapping" Thailog via "electronic mail". (It also got mentioned in one of the Goliath Chronicles episodes, but that doesn't count.) The near-absence of the Internet from the series certainly makes it appear
technologically dated" from today's perspective.
I think "odyssey" is a particular apt word. And though Goliath and Odysseus don't have a lot of character traits in common, I do think the comparison here was intentional. And they are both big, strong heroes.
The absence of something like the internet is less of a problem for me - in terms of dating the series - than, say, the brick-sized cellphones that Xanatos and others occasionally use.
Rewatched "Ill Met By Moonlight" today.
I spotted more hunting allusions in it (though this time, the gargoyles' "hunter" isn't a human); Titania's incantation to temporarily restrict Oberon's abilities includes the line "Till hunt be done", and Oberon says, after defeating Goliath, "And so ends the hunt". (He also evokes hunting imagery when he says "the rabbits would face the fox" - though I couldn't help thinking when he said it, "Technically, they're facing the fox's stepfather, though the audience isn't supposed to know that for another two episodes.")
Nice.
Rewatched "Cloud Fathers" on DVD yesterday.
This time while watching it, I wondered how Bronx left Beth's apartment. Goliath and Angela glided off without him, and I didn't see him going out the door with the Mazas (which wouldn't have been an option in any case, for obvious reasons).
We get another bit of hunting "verbal imagery", though one of the rare occasions where it's not directed at gargoyles, when Xanatos refers to Coyote the Trickster as his "true quarry".
Coyote the Trickster disappearing when he got the Mazas to look away for a moment reminds me of the tradition about how, if you look away from the faerie-folk for even a moment, they can vanish.
Don't really remember Bronx's exit without rewatching. But mightn't he have just walked down the outer wall of the building.
Rewatched "Bushido" today (I rewatched "Sentinel" yesterday, but had no new thoughts on it).
What most struck me this time around was the parallel to "Awakening", with Taro as like a less-serious version of Xanatos. The two specifics I noticed were the gargoyles' awakening in the theme park, which reminded me of the clan's first awakening in Manhattan, and their wondering if someone had moved the temple, which evoked Xanatos moving the castle to New York.
Those parallels were very intentional.
Rewatched "The Green" today.
I might be reading too much into this, but I noted that the ones responsible for the theft of the Mayan Sun Amulet and the deaths of most of the Mayan clan were called "poachers" - a term for illegal hunters. Given the recurrent theme about gargoyles being hunted and facing danger from hunters that I've been paying close attention to in the 25th anniversary reviewing, I thought that an apt word choice.
This episode featured five "clawmark" transitions, the most I've noted to date in any individual episode of "Gargoyles". (I've been keeping track of those during the silver anniversary reviewing, and counted fifteen up to this point, of which five were in this episode - one-third, in other words.)
Wow. That's a lot of claw wipes. But we also had more location transitions from Manhattan to the Green and back.
Rewatched "The New Olympians" on DVD today.
Continuing the "hunting" theme in "Gargoyles" that I've paid closer attention to this time around, I noticed that Ekidne described the New Olympians' ancestors as "hunted". (I also spotted a New Olympian extra who looked a lot like traditional depictions of Artemis/Diana, the goddess of the hunt - though I think I'm reading too much into that.)
Goliath's words to Angela about how they cannot wage war on an entire city remind me of his words to Demona in "Awakening Part Five" of how he cannot wage war upon an entire world.
Also intentional. I love those kinds of callbacks.
Rewatched "Eye of the Storm" on DVD today.
I noticed, this time around, that after Goliath rescues Elisa from Odin, Odin cries "This isn't over!" - the same words that Hakon used after his initial attack on the castle was turned back at the start of the series. It struck me as appropriate, since they were both "Old Norse". (I don't know if that was intentional, though, or just a fortunate coincidence.)
Intentional.
Rewatched "Pendragon" on DVD yesterday. A few observations from this time around.
Hudson recognizes the wind that heralds the arrival of King Arthur and Griff; I suspected that there's an interesting story behind that and how he came to know it. Most likely something that would be told in "Dark Ages".
Griff refers to Westminster Abbey as "my abbey" when initially confronting King Arthur - for me, it evoked Goliath speaking of "my castle" when confronting Elisa back in "Awakening Part Three". Evidently part of the gargoyles' territorial nature manifesting itself.
Macbeth immediately recognizes Griff as a gargoyle, though all his on-stage encounters with gargoyles up till then were with the Scottish variety. (Of course, most of the things that went on during those nine hundred years of wandering in his life, we don't know about - only his fighting at Bannockburn on the Scottish side, and taking part in the 1950 removal of the Stone of Destiny from Westminster Abbey.)
I really like the term "rookery poem" as a gargoyle counterpart to "nursery rhyme".
Someone should write a book of rookery poems...
Rewatched "Mark of the Panther" on DVD today.
I've mentioned before how I've noticed a strong "hunting" motif running through "Gargoyles" during my reviewing it; this episode included more of that theme, though, for a change, it didn't involve humans going after gargoyles. Instead, it was the Panther Queen and, later, Fara Maku, hunting for Anansi, and then Tea and the poachers hunting panthers.
Elisa lists the body parts of panthers that poachers are after as skin, teeth, and claws. When Diane Maza tells the story of the Panther Queen shortly afterwards, her description of the Panther Queen stresses those same three attributes (well, fur rather than skin, but it's close enough), but now focusing on their beauty, rather than the monetary worth that motivated the poachers. (And when Anansi turns the Panther Queen into a human, the story stresses the Queen's loss of those same attributes.)
Goliath's explanation to Diane, when they're trapped in the pit, that he can only glide, not fly, echoed (for me) his explanation to Elisa on the ledge back in "Awakening Part Three". Like mother, like daughter....
Yep...
Rewatched "The Hound of Ulster" yesterday, but I didn't have any new thoughts on it, so I skipped it over - and "Walkabout" today.
Things that struck me about "Walkabout" this time around:
I'd noticed this before, but Bronx growls at a kangaroo near the beginning. I wonder what he dislikes about them. (I also spotted a koala up in a tree - that I *hadn't* seen in past viewings.)
I was amused by Elisa's description of Dingo as "not one of the good guys" - since that could so easily be tweaked to "one of the bad guys". I don't know if you'd come up with the name for that spin-off at the time, of course.
Goliath at one point says "Aye, for now" - probably the one occasion where he says "Aye" - he usually leaves those Scottish-toned words to Hudson.
During the battle with the Matrix in the Dreamtime-world, Goliath imprisons it briefly within a dome that looks a lot like the domes it was producing in the waking world, and conjures up a shield with a sun-design upon it - a strange emblem for a gargoyle to bear.
Maybe Bronx just had never seen a kangaroo before...
Rewatched "Grief" on DVD today.
The only new observation I have is that, this time, I noticed how Keith David did the "aged-up" Goliath; his voice sounded, while recognizably Goliath's, much older. I thought it another "mark of honor" for the "Gargoyles" voice cast.
Yeah. Keith - and our whole cast - were just amazing.
Rewatched "M.I.A." today. One detail stood out to me this time; the human Londoners grouped in the background at the very end are the same ones we saw in Act I staring at the gargoyles in shock and alarm, when Leo and Una are confronting Goliath outside their shop. It made a pleasant touch, I thought, to see that those people have now recognized (judging from the way they were shown at the conclusion) that they didn't need to be scared of the gargoyles.
Yep.
Rewatched "Sanctuary" on DVD today. New observations.
Elisa writes Macbeth's name as "MacBeth". Not quite as serious as the infamous "Servarius" error in "The Cage", but still a bit unfortunate.
I was amused to note that Demona barely even registers Elisa's presence in the middle of her fight with Macbeth, even though Elisa's calling out to both of them - until just before Elisa shoots her. She does finally spot the detective and aim at her, but Elisa takes her down before she can do more than that. Apparently her feud with Macbeth tops even her hatred for Elisa.
I felt a sense of near-horror, though, as I noticed how Demona and Macbeth's fight was damaging the library, with several books apparently getting damaged or destroyed.
And the silhouette of a gargoyle against the moon in the newspaper photograph bears an uncanny similarity (obviously coincidental) to the Bat-Signal.
Those typos drive me nuts.
I rewatched "Golem" on DVD.
Not many new observations or insights, but I was impressed by the late Robert Culp's performance, the way he switches the tone of Renard's voice when he's in the Golem's body. It still sounds like Renard, but tougher, more vigorous.
I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I found the scene where Janus was petting Bronx on the head charming. (And all the more impressive, given that he's just encountered his first gargoyle beast only minutes before. He clearly picked up on Bronx's nature quickly.)
Bronx is very lovable.
Rewatched "Monsters" on DVD today. (Appropriate timing, I thought, since November 30 is St. Andrew's Day, dedicated to the patron saint of Scotland - and on that day, I was watching Scottish gargoyles encountering Scotland's most famous monster.) A few fresh thoughts on it.
When Elisa describes herself to the man at the souvenir stall as "not really the adventuring type", I found myself thinking of her statement in "High Noon", "I'm no hero; I just do my job". Certainly, whatever her incliations, she's had plenty of adventures.
I wondered whether Elisa's remark about theme parks doing "robot Nessie-type" stunts five times a day was Disney poking a bit of fun at itself - we'd see something similar in "Bushido".
And when Elisa says at the end how some legends need to stay that way, she looks in Goliath's direction as she speaks, making me wonder if it was just the Loch Ness Monster she was talking about. Certainly Elisa's been zealous about preserving the gargoyles' secrecy - maybe too zealous, in light of "Revelations" and "Mark of the Panther".
She wasn't just talking about Nessie.
I've now rewatched "Heritage" and "Kingdom" on DVD. No new thoughts on "Heritage", but I still really enjoy the gargoyles bringing Cagney to the clock tower to look after him in Elisa's absence. I thought it appropriate that it was Broadway who found the kitty (he's the one of the four left behind gargs who's closest to Elisa). And I liked Hudson's rapport with Cagney, while missing Bronx. Including Cagney rubbing affectionately against Hudson - he's got no problems with gargoyles (though Maggie's another story).
I found myself wondering how that containment unit was still functioning after Fang ripped the cables apart to transport it. (To make up for it, I noticed this time around - and really liked - the way they did Talon's voice while he was stuck in there.)
As you pointed out in your ramble, Xanatos's security system does far more damage to the castle than to the gargoyles - I cringe as I see it blowing pieces of the castle apart (small wonder that, by the time of the Double Date story, Owen was getting fed up with all those repairs!) - but Xanatos's lines made up for it.
Xanatos is just so much fun...
A postscript thought I had on "Shadows of the Past". Both it and "Future Tense" - the first and last episodes in the Avalon World Tour respectively - have Goliath being beset by terrifying magical illusions, but at last realizing that they're not real and confronting the person or people behind the illusion. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I think it gives a great element of symmetry to the World Tour.
It was indeed intentional.
Rewatched "Shadows of the Past" today.
Bronx was definitely not enjoying the wild boat ride through the stormy seas - his response put me in mind of the "series Pitch"'s description of him as angst-ridden and not fond of adventures.
I really enjoyed the little animation details in this episode - Elisa cautiously climbing up the path from the shore, grabbing hold of the stone wall at one point to steady herself, or Bronx slipping a bit when he starts climbing up the cliff.
The entrance to the rookery looked different than it did in "Awakening Part One" - apparently those doors and the gargoyle-like face over them were removed by Xanatos to New York, along with the rest of the castle. The depiction of the now castle-less cliff - with a huge gap - brought home just how much of it Mr. X had removed.
I really like the illusory Demona's words to Goliath "Join me in the dark" - it's an illusion of her, of course, but those words capture so well in metaphor what she's been trying to get him to do (when not simply trying to kill him).
This time around, looking at the giant skull-like shape left over from the Archmage's battle with the gargoyles in "Long Way Till Morning", I tried to work out (but wasn't certain) whether it was a real skull (if so, it belonged to something really huge) or just part of the cave sculpted into the likeness of a skull. I'll have to pay closer attention to it, the next time I watch "Long Way Till Morning".
The animation on that episode was just lovely..
Rewatched the "Avalon" triptych on DVD today. A few new observations.
The Magus's lyre in the "flashback on Avalon" scene looks a lot like Merlin's lyre in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". Obviously not the same one, but evidently both wizards share a common taste in musical instruments.
Princess Katharine and the Magus's telling Elisa "Little is known of the Sleeping King" struck me as all the more appropriate since in 995, nearly all the major works on King Arthur had yet to be written (Geoffrey of Monmouth's "History of the Kings of Britain", the oldest extant start-to-finish account of Arthur's life, wouldn't be written for over a hundred years). There were one or two, like Nennius's "Historia Brittonum", but that was about it.
A detail that I hadn't spotted before: a couple of gargoyle-like sculptures were "guarding" the bridge leading to Arthur's resting-place within the Hollow Hill.
King Arthur and Goliath have both used a mace while fighting Macbeth (Goliath did so in "Enter Macbeth") - one of a few points in common they share (others are awakening in the modern world from a long enchanted sleep, and having scheming illegitimate sons).
The Archmage's boast that he could destroy Goliath with "just a word" struck me as apt, since all the "enhanced Archmage"'s spells were one-word ones ("Vessel", "Revert", "Ice", etc.).
It's difficult not to smile at Elisa's "Souvenirs" question after Season One of "Young Justice". Fortunately, she was asking it in a lighthearted tone.
Certain elements run through my work, I suppose...
Rewatched "The Price" on DVD yesterday.
This time around, I noted the Macbeth-robot's "trophies" line, and how that continued the "hunting" imagery I'd been paying close attention to in the series during my 25th anniversary viewing. Because trophies are one of the reasons why someone would be hunting. (As far as I can tell, it's the only time that was given as a motive for hunting gargoyles - and, of course, it doesn't count, since it was all part of the misdirection tactic.)
Yep.
Rewatched "The Cage" on DVD today (and "Protection" yesterday, but I had no new thoughts or observations on it).
I noted, this time around, Elisa's joke about webbed feet during the family dinner scene at the start, followed by Peter Maza's "and a great duck impersonation" line followed by a quacking sound, and wondered if that might have been intended as a tribute to the Disney Afternoon's "duck shows" - both "Duck Tales" and "Darkwing Duck".
It's not NOT a tribute.
Rewatched "Upgrade" today.
Continuing the "animals/beasts/hunting" terms used for gargoyles - I noticed Dingo's remark to Wolf "I hope you're not planning to eat your catch" and Hyena's I wonder if gargoyles taste like chicken." This is the first time anyone was actually suggesting eating the gargoyles - they'd hunted them for other reasons - control, sport, revenge (I found myself suddenly comparing Gillecomgain's vengeful pursuit of Demona with Captain Ahab's pursuit of Moby-Dick - in both cases, to get back at the quarry for a lasting physical injury, whether facial scars or a missing leg), but this is the first time anyone seemed to consider eating the gargoyles. And, naturally, it'd be the Pack who'd be the ones to consider that.
Hyena also addresses Lexington as "flying rat".
When Broadway foils the most crimes, saying "You just gotta know where to look", I thought again of his detective interests in "The Silver Falcon" - and which resurfaces again in "Protection", the very next episode.
Not just the Pack, but Hyena specifically. Not sure the rest of the Pack has her appetite.
I rewatched "Double Jeopardy" today - a few new thoughts.
Elisa's again driving along a lonely road by the coast, far from Manhattan, just as she'd done in the immediately preceding episode ("Revelations") - but this time, we know why she's out there (a warning about a power plant emergency - actually a hoax, courtesy of Thailog).
Broadway tells Elisa, as he and Lexington head off to Gen-U-Tech, "We're on the case". His way of phrasing it invokes again his interest in detective work (cf. "The Silver Falcon").
All the dates on Sevarius' video documentary about Thailog are written in the "British format" - i.e., "15 NOV", with the day first, then the month. Something you don't often see on American television.
Dates are hard.
Rewatched "Revelations" on DVD.
The "creatures/beast" theme: Mace Malone describes Goliath as "a majestic beast". (The evidence, though, indicates that he recognizes Goliath as a sentient being rather than a mere "beast".)
This time around, when I saw Mace Malone's fate, I found myself thinking of the depiction of his ex-partner Dominic Dracon in the "Religion 101" radio play, searching everywhere for those diamonds in a way that indicated that he'd suffered a severe mental shock at the end of "The Silver Falcon". Though I recognize that the radio play isn't canon, I'd felt that it did seem like a probable consequence for DD, after discovering that those diamonds had never been in the Silver Falcon - and Mace Malone's own fate, frantically trying every door, convinced each time that this was the one which would get him out of the Hotel Cabal and to freedom, felt like a parallel to it.
I like that observation.
My thoughts on rewatching "Outfoxed".
Not much new to say about it, but I spotted two things. First, just after Goliath heads off in pursuit of Fortress-Two, we get a shot of it flying towards the Twin Towers. From a hindsight perspective, an unsettling moment.
I noticed, also (continuing my examination of the "monster/beast/creature" terminology used by humans towards gargoyles during this rewatch) that both Renard and Vogel call Goliath "creature". Renard, of course, soon recognizes that Goliath's a sentient being, capable of understanding him when he speaks about the importance of taking responsibility for your actions. I'm not so sure whether Vogel came to the same realization, though.
Ultimately, I think he did.
I rewatched "High Noon" over the weekend. ("Outfoxed", as well, but I'm giving it a separate entry.)
What struck me most about this episode this time around was that it was almost a "Shakespeare villain team-up" - Macbeth (and Demona, whom you could describe as a "Lady Macbeth" analogue) team up with Iago (more accurately, a gargoyle analogue for Iago, who's only called that in the voice actor credits). I doubt that Shakespeare should have objected to that, since he'd written at least one crossover himself ("A Midsummer Night's Dream", which blends Greek mythology with English fairy-lore).
I still like the touch of Hudson and Broadway learning to read from the newspaper - poor Broadway's still finding the word "right" a challenge (cf. "The Silver Falcon"). Again, I'm going to have to look through some books on the history of the English language to find out how so many words which sound like "-ite" came to end, in written form, with "-ight". It's probably one of the biggest challenges to someone learning written English.
Broadway's excited cry, as he and Hudson enter Macbeth's library, "Look at all these books!" struck me all the more, when I thought that, to someone who'd been born (well, hatched) and grown up in the 10th century, a library that size would indeed seem miraculous. What a difference the printing press has made!
"Iago"'s cry as "Othello" and "Desdemona" recover control of Coldstone, "I am besieged!", grabbed me this time around - such a dramatic way of describing the struggle within.
And this time, I also noted Coldstone's statement that, as long as "Iago"'s trying to recover control, "no *living* gargoyle" (emphasis mine) is safe from him. It brings home, I think, his awareness that he's now an "undead gargoyle".
Glad you liked it, still, after all these years.
Rewatched "City of Stone" today (all four episodes). A few things that stood out to me this time.
Continuing the "gargoyles being called beasts" thread: the granary guards in Part One call Demona's clan "filthy beasts". Gillecomgain doesn't use the term "beast" for Demona, but does call her a creature and a monster.
(By contrast, the "breastplate gargoyle" comments about their old home, after Demona and her clan have to abandon it following Duncan's attack, "The hunting there was good" - probably one of the few occasions where gargoyles are talking about being the hunters rather than the hunted.)
Demona's clan uses nets twice in this multi-parter - once against the granary guards in Part One, once against Canmore's army in Part Four. The nets being in Parts One and Four gave a nice sense of "bookends".
A detail that I can't believe I missed before: Demona was bearing the Hunter's mask at her belt, as if a trophy, after the battle with Duncan. (The young Canmore grabs it from her during his attack upon her.)
Demona calls Bronx "my pet"; I looked up your remarks on gargoyle beasts in the archives and found that gargoyles don't see gargoyle beasts as pets, but as equals. Maybe another sign that Demona thinks far more like a human than she'd admit (or than it would be safe to tell her)?
I like the touch of the various new kings (like Macbeth and Lulach) being hailed as "High King of Scotland" - the "high king" part conveys all the more a sense of Scotland as a collection of recently-united chiefdoms (which it would have been at the time in actual history).
We tried to get a feeling for the actual history into the piece.
Rewatched "Vows" today. A few new things that came to me.
I was hesitant about mentioning this, in case it comes across as an idea, but - from the way Goliath addressed Demona as "my angel of the night" at Prince Malcolm's wedding, I wondered if this was the first time he'd called her that.
When Xanatos referred to his getting the old coin that was the foundation of his fortune as "ancient history", I thought, "well, medieval history, to be precise".
I wonder how Prince Malcolm and his court must have perceived the Norman Ambassador's departure - he rides off just before the wedding, not staying to see Princess Elena, whom he'd escorted to the castle, wedded (even though he'd presumably be the closest thing to a representative of her father there). At least it doesn't appear to have caused a diplomatic incident between Scotland and Normandy.
The Archmage addresses Demona as "you stupid beast", continuing the pattern of unfriendly humans using such terms for gargoyles, that I've been paying close attention to this time around.
Brooklyn is the one most vocal about going to Goliath's rescue at the end; I wonder if Demona's involvement and his feelings about her had a lot to do about that.
I still think it's a pity that the original ending got onto the DVD; I hope that the Disney + version uses the corrected ending. (That's the main thing I miss from my old "Gargoyles" tapes.)
<sigh> That damn ending...
Rewatched my DVD of "Eye of the Beholder" today. I didn't find as much new to notice with this one, unfortunately, though I was delighted to note the moment where Xanatos placed his hand on Goliath's shoulder while pleading for his help at the castle - meaning that he had an opportunity (which he used, obviously) to plant that tracking device on him. I'm glad that the episode played fair with that.
Brooklyn's eyepatch as part of his pirate costume seems all the more appropriate after the ending of "Clan-Building".
Goliath echoes "Re-Awakening" when he speaks of Manhattan as "my castle, my city".
Lots of echoes in this one - backwards and forwards...
New observations from rewatching "The Silver Falcon" today.
One line of Broadway's dates the episode: he mentions that Lexington and Brooklyn "have dibs on the VCR". I wonder how many of us remember VCRS, and how many of us have forgotten them thanks to DVDs and Blu-Rays.
Elisa's line about Broadway "living out a movie fantasy" brought "Deadly Force" to my mind this time (of course, it helps that Dracon's back in this episode). Fortunately, Broadway's wish to do that has less disastrous results this time.
I also spotted, this time around, the parallels between Matt's entering the remains of the Silver Falcon night club and Broadway and Elisa's later arrival - and how both Broadway and Elisa say "I've had better nights".
And this episode continues "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" , showing us that Broadway's begun to learn how to read, and has progressed enough to be able to read Mace Malone's note (and correctly figure out its meaning). In "Lighthouse" he'd initially been drawn to reading because of its ability to take you to other places and times; now he finds that it can be used to convey useful information. (And the poor guy has the word "right" in that note, though he manages to figure it out. It got me wondering - and I'll have to look it up - how so many English words which rhyme with "ite" are written "-ight" - bright, fright, fight, flight, night, sight, knight, tight, etc.
Even DVDs and Blu-Rays are losing ground to streaming...
I always thought that for a new reader - which I can't quite remember being - words with the -ight formation would be tough. So would "tough".
Rewatched "The Mirror" today. A few new thoughts and observations.
I saw Demona's snarl at the "Dracula's daughter" in a new light this time. Dracula was a human before he became a vampire - and, naturally, Demona's going to regard any suggestion that she's related to a human - even a human who's become another "mythical creature of the night" - as the ultimate insult.
Not on the scale of Coldstone or the "Hunter's Moon" scheme, but Puck engages in a bit of "blending science with magic" when he uses the satellite dish and the television antenna atop the Twin Towers to help him turn all the humans in Manhattan into gargoyles and back again.
Bronx gets turned into an Irish wolfhound (or close to that kind of dog) - appropriate, in light of "The Hound of Ulster".
Ah, memories...
Rewatched "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" - a few fresh thoughts.
I remember your mentioning that you'd intended to have Goliath list a few specific books about Merlin, with Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave" as one of them, but weren't able to clear the rights for that. It recently struck me as particularly unfortunate you couldn't mention "The Crystal Cave", since it was published in 1970 and "Lighthouse" first aired in 1995. Goliath could have given it a 25th anniversary tribute.
Continuing the "'beast and monster' terms used for gargoyles" thread that I've been paying particularly close attention to for "Gargoyles"' own silver anniversary viewing, I noted that Macbeth addressed Broadway as "beastie" (evocative of Robert Burns, though Broadway's definitely not "wee, sleekit, cow'rin', timorous" and there didn't seem to be any panic in his breastie) and Goliath as "monster".
I spotted a drawing of a Celtic cross at the top of one of Merlin's Scrolls, when it was unrolled and the writing was visible.
Yeah, I wanted to acknowledge some of my influences, but Disney legal said no.
I rewatched "Legion" today.
When Goliath and Lexington were reunited with Coldstone near the start, I suddenly found myself thinking of your mention of a (rejected) outline for a live-action adaptation of "Gargoyles" you'd written which had Goliath, Lex, and "Othello" as the gargoyles who'd be awakened in the modern world.
This time around, also, the Xanatos Program felt like a foreshadowing of "Future Tense".
I also wondered (just a wondering, not a question) whether the ivied balcony in Coldstone's memories (where he's standing while Iago's "pouring poison in his ear" about Desdemona and Goliath) was supposed to be an actual feature of Castle Wyvern before the massacre, or just a symbolic construct.
Yeah, one thing I'd have loved to do was to better integrate the Coldtrio into the early episodes.
I think maybe the castle might have had some kind of ivy. Maybe. Guess I'd have to research that.
I rewatched "Metamorphosis" today. A few things that struck me this time around.
When Derek and Elisa had their "Xanatos as the reincarnation of Snidely Whiplash" exchange, I thought "No, he's a lot more dangerous than that."
I noticed the pigeons clustered around Goliath just before he awakened; you'd think they'd be staying well away from the clock tower by now. (Though they do fly off in a hurry once the gargoyles wake up.)
I spotted a few animals in cages in Sevarius's lab that I don't think I'd noticed before, though I'm not certain what they were; they were too small to be jungle cats, and the wrong shape for bats.
I'd have to look at the episode again to see if I could remember what they were.
Rewatched "Leader of the Pack" on DVD today. Elements that particularly stood out to me this time:
We see all the gargoyles awakening from their stone sleep, one by one. An appropriate way, I thought, to re-introduce them in the first episode of the second season.
Hudson displays his tracking skills in examining the traces of the fight between the Pack and Lexington, Brooklyn and Bronx at Pack-Media Studios. In fact, I've noticed him using that skill a lot - all the way back to "Awakening Part One", where he notes that the Vikings' horses' prints are too light.
Yep, Hudson was our experienced tracker.
New thoughts on "Re-Awakening", after my rewatch.
I don't know whether this was intentional or not, but when Goliath and Elisa were having their conversation about the shopkeeper and why he doesn't leave the neighborhood, I found myself thinking of "Othello"'s suggestion, in the flashback, of abandoning the castle and letting the Vikings have it, and Hudson's response. I don't know if you intended those moments to be thematically connected, but they did feel that way to me this time.
It still strikes me that the fact that the gargoyles' resolution to protect the city and its inhabitants comes at the end of the first season says a lot about how different "Gargoyles" was from most super-hero series; the gargoyles are able to have plenty of adventures and experiences - thirteen episodes' worth of them - before making that vow. The series was rooted in their being gargoyles - ancient "mythical" beings with their own culture and world-view - re-awakened in the modern world, trying to make sense of it - and often making mistakes in the course of their attempts - rather than just crime-fighters.
That was all intentional.
Rewatched both "Her Brother's Keeper" and "Re-Awakening" today, as part of my "Gargoyles" 25th anniversary review. New thoughts on "Her Brother's Keeper" (ones that came to mind when I rewatched it).
Broadway's concerned remarks about Elisa near the beginning (including "If cops were meant to fly, they'd have wings") indicates that Elisa had shared with them how she was following Xanatos by helicopter before embarking on it.
Derek's remark to Diane that working for Xanatos "could be the start of a whole new career for me" feels all the truer in hindsight - though he obviously wasn't thinking in terms of running an underground sanctuary for Mutates and homeless people when he said it.
I spotted the clock's hands moving at one point in the episode; apparently Lexington had indeed gotten it working again.
But was it telling the correct time?
I rewatched "Lnng Way Till Morning" today.
I'm not sure if I noticed it (or commented on it) before, but I spotted two parallel elements in the flashbacks (beside the obvious "Goliath and Hudson pitted against someone who made a poison dart attack upon a human friend"). The scene where Demona wounds Goliath parallels the Archmage's attack on Prince Malcolm; on both occasions, Hudson tries to block the attack, but to no avail. And in both the past and present parts of the story, Demona comments on the gargoyles going underground where their wings will be no use (though in different moods).
Continuing the study of how often "beast" imagery gets applied to the gargoyles: the Archmage calls Goliath a "beast".
October 31st and you're not watching "Eye of the Beholder"?
I rewatched "The Edge" today - appropriately, since today (October 30) is, according to some sources, Dostoyevsky's birthday, and Goliath was reading his work in the episode.
I spotted more "hunted like animals" remarks (I'm keeping close watch for those in the 25th anniversary review) from Xanatos during his conversation with Goliath at the castle. (I don't recall any of that imagery in "Deadly Force". I think that Macbeth addressed Goliath as "beastie" in "Enter Macbeth", but I'm not certain - if he did, I must have temporarily forgotten my resolve to keep track of that element.)
I also couldn't help thinking, this time around, how convenient for the series it was that Elisa only got a partner *after* the gargoyles moved out of the castle and into the clock tower.
Yeah. It was too convenient, which is why we gave her Matt.
Rewatched "Enter Macbeth" today.
I can't help womdering what must be going through Hudson's head as he watches a Donald Duck cartoon, thoughtfully stroking his beard. The spectacle of a duck grown to human size, wearing clothes and speaking (kind of) could be an even bigger argument for not believing everything you see on television than the revelation of the Pack's true nature.
U remember in your ramble on "Enter Macbeth", your daughter spotted what looked like the Mona Lisa in Macbeth's mansion. This time around, I noticed a portrait of a man apparently in 18th century attire, who reminded me of portraits I'd seen of Bonnie Prince Charlie.
The doors to Macbeth get it both coming and going; they first get broken down when Bronx escapes, and when he returns with Goliath, they demolish a second pair of doors. (Of course, it becomes academic after the whole mansion gets burned down.)
Lexington talks about getting the clock working again; I wonder if he ever succeeded before the Canmores blew the place up.
1. Donald is a mystery to us all... ;)
2. I think Macbeth owned a lot of expensive art.
3. Yeah, so much destruction.
4. He never did.
Features I'd just noticed about "Temptation", this time around.
1. When Broadway tells Goliath that Brooklyn had gone on a joyride, he makes motions with his hands suggesting someone gripping a motorcycle's handlebars.
2. Demona, when she talks about the events of "The Thrill of the Hunt", uses the phrase "hunted like animals" - which not only continues the "humans seeing the gargoyles as beasts" thread that I'd noticed all the more in "Awakening" and "The Thrill of the Hunt", but also put me in mind of the Hunters - no wonder she uses that description!
1. Yep.
2. She's got a history...
I also rewatched "The Thrill of the Hunt" and "Temptation" today. Things I noted this time in "The Thrill of the Hunt".
1. Lexington, angered about the Pack's treachery, cries that they're like animals. I thought that appropriate, given the Pack's "animal names".
2. The Pack continue the "referring to the gargoyles as beasts" practice from "Awakening" and even speak of hunting them, such as Wolf's cry "Let the hunt begin!" - the talk about hunting them also made me think of the Hunters (though they wouldn't be introduced until Season Two, of course).
3. When Brooklyn and Broadway arrive at the end to tell Goliath and Lexington how they'd seen a report on the news about Fox and Wolf's arrest, they come gliding in from outside the castle - so apparently they weren't watching television with Hudson when they found out, but somewhere else. (I won't ask where, but this detail struck me for the first time.)
4. Dingo's cry of "Stone me!" upon seeing the photographs of Goliath felt like a particularly appropriate response to a gargoyle.
1. Yep.
2. Common themes running through the series, I think.
3. Or they were watching t.v. earlier.
4. :)
To celebrate the 25th anniversary of "Gargoyles", I watched "Awakening" (all five episodes) on DVD yesterday, and thought I'd share a few things I hadn't noticed before (or hadn't noticed enough) that struck my fancy.
1. When Goliath sends the trio and Bronx to the rookery, Bronx looks ashamed of himself - in a way that reminds me of times when dogs I'd known looked guilty over something.
2. When Xanatos tells Owen "Make the offer now" at the ruins of Castle Wyvern, I suddenly wondered whom he bought Castle Wyvern from. I won't ask here - it's obviously a "No spoilers" answer - but I was struck by the fact that this was the first time I wondered that.
3. I spotted what looked like a "foliate head" (or "Green Man"-type head) carved over the archway the gargoyles are standing beneath when the Commandos showed up in the courtyard, and a couple of winged figures on one of the tapestries. (I'll have to check for other unusual and remarkable features of the castle in later episodes, as well.)
4. Many of the human characters repeatedly call the gargoyles "beasts", both in the medieval scenes and the modern (Princess Katharine's protest at allowing beasts in the dining hall, Mary calling the gargoyles beasts, Bruno asking "Where's the beast?" while pursuing Goliath and Elisa).
5. Goliath asks Elisa, when they first meet, "What were you doing in my castle?" Despite Xanatos having bought it, he clearly thinks of it as still his - as if laying pipe for the arc about the gargoyles having to leave the castle and Goliath resisting it.
1. The dogs I've had get that shamed look based on my reprimanding tone more than based on what they've done. As opposed to the cats I've had (and have), who at best stare at me as if to ask, "Are you talking to me?"
2. An interesting question.
3. Art Direction was pretty awesome on the show.
4. All very intentional.
5. We tried to keep each character's POV clear.
Something I recently saw at the Phoenix Public Library reminded me of the fears you'd mentioned that "Gargoyles" would be perceived as a "Batman: TAS" imitation. I spotted a few copies (four in all - someone on the library staff must have had fond memories of the series) of the "Gargoyles Season Two Volume Two" DVD there, and noted that the blurb on the back called the gargoyles "Gotham's guardians". Well, Gotham *is* an old nickname for New York (going back to Washington Irving), and there's the alliterative appeal, but it still makes it look as if somebody confused the gargs with a different nocturnal crime-fighter.
Eh. Maybe. Or maybe, as you said, people were looking for something alliterative.
I also recently read the "Oral History of Gargoyles" online, and enjoyed it. My favorite part was when you mentioned how "Gargoyles" was initially inspired by "Adventures of the Gummi Bears", only instead of "cute, cuddly multi-colored bears" it would have "cute, cuddly multi-colored gargoyles". I know you were talking about the original comedy development take on the gargoyles, but I laughed aloud at the "cute, cuddly" part - they're definitely not the adjectives I'd use for describing Goliath. "Majestic", yes, "awe-inspiring", yes, but not "cute" or "cuddly".
Goliath wasn't in the comedy development so... cute and cuddly wasn't a job requirement for him.
I thought you might like to know that I recently found a small book on gargoyles at the library (part of a series of books on mythical monsters), which included a few paragraphs on "Gargoyles". It gave a summary of the series (if a bit inaccurate, I regret to say - it made it sound as if the gargoyles' turning to stone during the day was part of the Magus's curse and stopped happening when they awakened in the modern world) - and also mentioned the Gatherings; it even included Station 8's comment room in the "Internet sites" section in the "Further Reading" at the back.
It also included much information about architectural gargoyles, including the mention that "true gargoyles" (that is, waterspouts designed to look like gargoyles) keep rainwater off the buildings they're mounted on, and even the non-waterspout gargoyles serve a similar function (the rain bouncing off them). So even real-world architectural gargoyles protect - if in a different way than the ones in the series.
The book was written by a Hayley Mitchell Haugen, and was published in 2007.
Very cool. Thanks.
Hello! You most definately get this alot but i am a huge fan, and this question is of a personal nature, although not too personal i think.
You see there is someone close to me who keeps trying to "shame" me because i like to watch cartoons, such as Young Justice/Ducktales/Star vs the forces of evil
Just to name a few. As well as animated movies, this person believes that animation is solely for little kids, and i shouldnt be watching any of them just because im a young adult.
I have tried to get this person to watch some, you know give it a chance and all that, i tried getting him to watch the Gargoyles dvd i bought! but he is hellbent on not doing so. So my question is, how do i explain to this person that not every animated show and movie isnt just for kids?
I know getting him to do a complete 180 on this subject is just wishful thinking lol but i'm mostly asking just to maybe tell him a more indepth response, especially if it comes from someone who works in the industry.
I'm not sure how to convince your "someone." But if you're a young adult, I think it's fair to say, "I disagree with you strongly. Animation is a medium. It is not by definition for kids or adults. It all depends on the content. And even if some of the stuff I watch IS for kids, how does that affect you in any way? Please respect that I know what I like and watch what I like."
Or something like that.
hello mr Greg Weisman im a really big fan of Gargoyles and i was just wondering did you make Gargoyles for kids ? or did you make it for a older aduience and just had to make sure it was appealing to kids ?
We made it for everyone. Our primary target audience was (by decree of TPTB) boys, ages 6-11. But we made it for everyone. All genders, all ages, etc.
did you know that your show is awesome?
I kinda feel like it's awesome. It is to me, at least. It's the kinda show I would like to watch. But I'm happy to have you and others confirm that. Very happy.
Um... which show are we talking about?
Hi Greg,
Thank you for your work and Gargoyles, it gave a mature 13-year old kid a great show to watch and escape with when his world around him was falling apart.
I wanted to ask you about Goliath and his character ARC. he's such a complex character who spends so much time in grief and, carrying burdens from his past balancing good and evil, broken hearts and forbidden romances, an evolution of "Clan" and family.
Season three opened all of these new possibilities with new clans popping up all over the world after Avalon, and so my Question is, What would it take for Goliath to get his happy ending? Was there ever a plan to really wrap up Gargoyles, because the universe really is so deep and expansive everyone could have gotten 10 episodes plus about their own struggles and triumphs.
I even got to read Brooklyn's Comic Arc from "Clan Building" by Greg Weisman, and had even more love for what could have been! Thank you for answering if you get the chance!
I think you're referring to Season Two having "opened all of these new possibilities with new clans popping up all over the world".
There is no plan to wrap Gargoyles forever. I don't do final endings. But that doesn't mean I don't have an end to Goliath's story in mind. But revealing whether it's a happy ending or not, would a spoiler.
Glad you liked the show and the companion comic!
Dear Greg,
You are really amazing!! I love how you have all made this! Sorry for my bad English, because I come from the Netherlands and english is not my mother launguage. Sorry.
I have a lot of questions. My first question is: How was your first day working here?
Thank you for your time!!
Your sincerly,
Laura
Working... where?
I'm sorry. I know English isn't your first language - though you're doing better than I would do at ANY other language, but I don't know which series you're referring to. Or whether you're talking about ASK GREG.
Did you ever think the show would be the inspiration for someones actual deed poll name change?
I don't know which series you're referring to. And I don't know what "actual deed poll name change" refers to.
I haven't posted in years, (too far behind in reading), but I just had to post my daughter's reaction to Future Tense.
My daughters, 9 and 6, and I have been watching Gargoyles from the beginning. Most evenings they greet me when get home from work with, "Do we have time for an episode?!?". They are not just hooked, they are obsessed. Miriam, my little one, is seriously considering being Elisa for Purim.
(I told her from the start I wasn't making a gargoyle costume. I learned my lesson from our watching of Avatar two years ago when I somehow found myself having agreed to make them water and air bending costumes because they are no longer cheaply available to buy. Hours and hours later they came out pretty dang good, especially considering I don't actually know how to sew. Their friend went as a earth bender...he wore a green t-shirt with the earth bending symbol silk screened on it - cheaply available on the internet :| .)
We watched Future Tense a few evenings ago. Miriam spent the whole episode tense and near tears asking, "they're going to use the Phoenix Gate, right? They have to use the Phoenix Gate right?" I had to sit with my arm around her. When we got to the end she smiled a big smile and told me it was a really good episode but too scary to watch again. She repeated her assessment a few days later to a friend, (the earth bender). The girls had him watch the first episode of Awakenings yesterday.
As for the big one, she assured me she wasn't scared the whole time.
Thank you for the shared experience with my girls!
I haven't posted in about a year, either.
I love to hear about fans watching the show with their kids. And I'm so gratified that the kids appreciate it and are becoming a new generation of Gargoyles fans. And Future Tense IS scary!!
Not a question. Just letting you know, my six year old daughter loves Gargoyles and was ranting that the bad guys were being mean to the Gargoyles. She'd make a great advocate for them. And she loves what you guys did with the comics. I had to change some of the words that my daughter does not need to learn yet. But that's okay. I hope someday you will be able to keep up the good work.
Thank you so much. That really makes my day!
You know, when we first focus tested GARGOYLES, the moderator asked the kids, "Did you like Goliath?" The kids all said yes. Then: "Did you like Demona?" The kids said no. The focus testing folks then advised us to take Demona out of the show. We had to explain to them that the kids didn't like Demona because she was THE VILLAIN! (Duh.)
Congrats on Young Justice being continued. Always great if fans fighting for the favorite shows succeed.
I really liked Rain of the Ghosts and Spirits of Ash and Foam. Will you write Masque of Bones now things are going well again? The book series is as good as Gargoyles was both in quality, imagination and depth of characters and story arc... books so brillant should be continued. PLEASE!
Thank you.
I still plan to get back to Masque of Bones and the Rain series someday, but unfortunately I just can't afford to do it now. I need to make a living, and with no one interested in publishing and paying me to write the book, I need to focus on other (paid) work instead. Sometimes real life is uncooperative.
Well, this is more of a thank you for Young Justice, I am SUPER stoked it's coming back, it is a really amazing program and helped me through some tough times when I was a teen, and I remember thinking, "things might be bad, but at least I don't have to save the world as well". And now, I'm enlisting into the US Army as a combat engineer and am thrilled to be starting a new chapter in my life. The excitement of Young Justice will definitely motivate me through Basic. And thanks again for this show.
Wow. Thank YOU for your service! Glad we could be part of your life!
Hey Greg the topics on my questions are about popularity. The other day I was thinking abiut gargoyles, and W.I.T.C.H and I always wondered why it didn't get a far better mainstream appeal.
This was odd for me as gargoyles being your baby, it does have brilliant writting and well developed characters.
I mean sure it does have a relative big following , theres a fan hosting this very site. But on the whole of dinsey propierties Gargoyles is a bit on the obscure side of things. I apologize if that comes as an insult. By the standards of a 90's disney cartoon your show is reasnably well rememebered, sure.
But had the fanbase being larger, the comic would've lasted longer I think.
I rather consider this a paradox. A brilliant show with great writting doesn't gett that much attention. Consider for a second how ducktales got a revival, and gargoyles is still waiting despite our best wishes as fans.
I think I found the reason.
Gargoyles lacks escapism.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing. You love your show and just how things are. Nothing wrong with that. I don't want you to change what you love.
Gargoyles are supposed to be feared and disliked as the whole point of them is a statment against prejudice. That's the entire point.
But it does affect their popuilarity.
Say people might want to be like Nightwing or spiderman as teens with incredible lifes. But I think few people would want to be a gargoyle hiding from the world.
People admire Goliath but I don't think anyone (mainly the kids of the audience) would like to be him nor Hudson or Lexington.
X-men has also the prejudiced characters. But there's a line of kids that would love to be like Wolverine or even Mystique.
I think it's safe to say that nobody would like to be in Puck's shoes.
Xanatos, Fox and oberon were probably the closes to escapist characters given their confort. But I think that's a stretch give the gargoyles are the focus.
So my question is what do you think?
I simply disagree. There's plenty of escapism in Gargoyles. More, I'd argue, than in X-Men. Why would someone want to be Wolverine and not, say, Brooklyn? (I mean from an escapist, point of view.) Is it because Wolverine is a badass? Well, so is Goliath.
Young Justice Season One Review
I didn't have to work Labor Day, so I spent it binging the second half of season one. I'm of two minds on the season as a whole. Thematically, it was about team-building, specifically through trust and revealing secrets. M'gann was hiding her grotesque (by Earth standards) real body is the best example I can remember, but there were others. In the last couple episodes they spent a lot of time baring their souls to one another, and they became a stronger team as a result. There were little character traits early on that got expanded over time. M'gann's catchphrase was annoying until we learned where it came from (a sitcom by those hacks Brandon Weisman and Greg Vietti). Red Arrow was obnoxious and I couldn't stand him, but then we find out it wasn't his real personality but conditioning from The Light. It ends on New Year's Eve, a great time for reflection.
On a plot level, though, I'm not as enthusiastic. The individual episodes generally had pretty good plots (the Halloween ghost story was one of my favorites), but the season long arc seemed kind of weak. Mainly, it's that there was a very long build-up to a masterstroke that was resolved very quickly. In the last episode, Vandal Savage and Thom Adcox (I don't remember that character's name) takes control of the entire Justice League. HOLY CRAP HOW ARE THEY EVER GOING TO- the Young Justice team frees them all in about ten minutes. It struck me as an anticlimax. Then Savage just left and talked about "phase two" of the plan. You've often referred to "Big Bads," a reference to Joss Whedon's standard plot structure, but in a typical season of Buffy the Big Bad would be utterly defeated at the end of the season. Maybe The Light are more like Wolfram and Hart from Angel. Well, it's not a big complaint from me. I enjoyed the season by and large, I just felt that they foiled The Light's plan too easily. On the plus side, I love Savage's monologue about survival of the fittest. He also referenced being thousands of years old but didn't explain further. I imagine if I knew DC comics I would know a lot about him, but instead I'm willing to enjoy the ride.
I already have season two, so I'll start watching it soon. Since it's called "Invasion" and Savage ominously referred to "phase two," I'm guessing it involves some sort of alien infiltration and Savage is worried that the Justice League has made humanity too soft to resist. I could be totally wrong, of course, but I'm eager to see where it goes.
Rating: 3.5/4
Feel a bit damned by faint praise. But I respect your opinion... though I don't really agree with it. Glad it largely worked for you.
I know this isn't a forum, but I would like to respond to another poster who asked if Demona was ticklish by saying:
Would you really want to find out?:)
I'm not touching this one (or her).
Hi Greg.
Been a long while since I've asked you anything here. I hope things are well with you. Sounds like you're busy these days and I'm glad to hear it.
I'm writing to ask you about Gargoyles. It's crazy to think that the property is approaching its 25th year. And very cool to think that "in-universe" Artus and other gargoyles around the world are less than a year away from hatching!
But what I'm writing about is the future of Gargoyles on television, in comics, novels, etc. It feels like the last few years have been very quiet for Gargoyles. The last Gathering is nearly a decade behind us. We've had no new material in even longer. Revisions on GargWiki only trickle in these days. Gargoyles fan sites are steadily being abandoned or dying. Even Ask Greg is far more of a Young Justice site these days. The Comment Room is pretty quiet, a shadow of what it was when I first discovered it over 17 years ago. And we fans are slowly growing older. And with all of these disheartening facts, I'm beginning to lose hope in new Gargoyles material from here on out.
It's hard for me to even admit that. I can remember getting very fired up and launching into pep talks when others would express similar thoughts over the years. Maybe I'm writing this in hopes of getting a pep talk myself. I don't know. Really, I just want to know what your thoughts on the future of Gargoyles is. Good or bad, I'd just like to hear it from the man himself.
Let me be clear: I'm not asking if you've given up on the property. I know that you have never failed to look for an outlet to tell your stories and I know that if you were given a chance you'd happily tell those stories in any medium. I'm just curious about your personal and professional opinion on any future Gargoyles products.
I will always be a fan. I will always love the stories you've told us. I will always have some hope that more stories will be told and I'll be quick to support the property if/when that happens. I'm just feeling like Gargoyles is all in the past. Honestly, am I right? Or am I just being dramatic? And if Gargoyles does have a chance in the future, what can we do to help it along after all these years?
Thanks, Greg. You rock. Thanks for everything!
Hey Matt,
You're just being dramatic. Which doesn't mean you aren't also right. Which doesn't mean there isn't hope. Confused yet?
Here's a hard truth: Disney bought Marvel and Lucasfilm. Why take a chance on a 25-year-old action property that (to their mind) has an aging/shrinking fanbase when you can exploit sure things like Star Wars and Spider-Man?
That's the big hump right now.
In addition, comic book publishing of Disney's licensed properties has been in disarray. As I'm sure you've noticed, we made some progress with Joe Books... and then it all fell apart. We're now waiting for Joe's license to lapse and are hopeful -actually hopeful - that we can make new comics happen with a new publisher. [Name of new publisher being withheld for now until a deal is made.]
So, no, of course I haven't given up. Gargoyles is my baby, and I'll never give up on it. I hope the fans won't either, but I understand there isn't much new to talk about these days, so it's natural that interest wanes. But I hope if and when there is something new to talk about, the fans will help me launch a campaign to get that new stuff noticed.
I truly believe that our best bet right now is, in fact, comic books. I can tell original canon stories (with little or no interference), and then we can use the comics to demonstrate that the property is still viable, just as we used Netflix to prove that Young Justice was still viable.
I'm also hopeful that once Disney has its own version of Netflix up and running in 2019 (just in time for our 25th Anniversary), that they'll put Gargoyles up there for streaming. Then we can begin a #KeepBingingGargoyles campaign, and who knows what might happen?!
Meanwhile, though it's true we haven't had an official Gathering since 2009, we did have a Gargoyles-convention-within-a-convention that was VERY successful at CONvergence in 2014 in Minneapolis, honoring the show's 20th anniversary. We did all the old Gathering stuff: showed the videos, multiple panels on the subject (including the biology/cultural panel), an original Gargoyles Radio Play, and we had Marina Sirtis, Frank Paur & Greg Guler there, as well. Many old Gargoyles fans showed up, and we had a blast. http://www.convergence-con.org/about/archive/2014-convention/
I'll be back at CONvergence in July of 2018, and although it won't be a full-on Gargoyles convention-within-a-convention again, we will do a Radio Play, and I always do at least one Gargoyles panel.
Plus, I've been talking with a venue to do another Garg-con-within-a-con to celebrate our 25th anniversary in 2019. I'll keep you posted here, but you should think about attending. It'll get the juices flowing.
So, no, don't despair. I'm always pretty upfront about the likelihood of anything happening, and right now it's a bit slim. But down the road, I still see a lot of potential. Stick with us!
Hello Mr. Weisman, let me just start by saying that Gargoyles is now My #1 favorite Disney Series, and I've gotten and read the first 6 issues of the Clan Building Comic books and the 4 first issues of the 'Bad Guys' Comic Books, and here are 2 questions that I do have
1. Do you have any general comment to all of the Fans out there Who make Fan Art and/or Write Fan Fictions about 'Gargoyles', or any cartoon show you created?
2. What general advice would you give to a Fan who writing a Fan Fiction about 'Gargoyles'?
1. Not sure what you're looking for. Um... Go for it!
2. I don't read any fanfiction to protect myself legally. So I'm hardly an expert with advice and the like. So... try to be true to the characters, I guess?
Happy belated holidays. This is more of a ramble of sorts in regards to Gargoyles. Now me personally I'm more of a superhero fan which is why I like Spectacular Spider-Man and Young Justice better but Gargoyles is still a blast to watch. Going through the archive and watching a couple episodes of Gargoyles, it's easy to see that you put a LOT of thought and passion into it in regards to crafting the Gargoyles mythos. I'm assuming that since it is more or less an original work out of your head and other writers of the show, you probably had a real blast in writing it. The rambles you wrote on how the episodes came together and whatnot were really entertaining to read. Probably my two favorite parts of the show were the Third Race and the Gargoyles interpretation of Arthurian lore. Weaving so many mythologies and folklore under one umbrella was a pretty neat idea. And I had no idea that the island of Avalon came from the legends of Arthur. I know Disney is in control of the property but if they ever give SLG (I think that's the company) the license again I would read it in a heartbeat. You both implied in the show and outright stated so many interesting things about the future of where you going to take the stories that my interest is beyond piqued. Thanks for reading this and hope it didn't waste your time or anything.
Thanks for the kind words. We always thought we were working firmly in the super-hero genre - bastard genre though it is - in our storytelling, just minus the trappings (capes, tights, etc.). Glad the show's working for you. Obviously, I'd recommend watching all 65 episodes of the first two seasons in order, followed by the eighteen existing issues of the SLG comic book series.
And, yes, we're all hopeful that the comic will come back sooner than later.
What websites do you usually look at when you want to see the fandom's reaction to something?
I actually try NOT to do that at all. It makes me a bit crazy. One loves the praise and hates the haters, but if one values the praise, then one must place value on the hate. So I've learned the hard way - believe me - that I'm better off NOT. Just not.
Once in a blue moon, I can't resist however. But there's no set place I go. Just what I stumble upon, usually, that I don't have the willpower to click away from.
http://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/sensor-scan-gargoyles/
Thoughts?
Well, my first thought in reading the first sentence was: "how completely obnoxious." And it only gets worse from there.
Look, no one has to like Gargoyles or appreciate it. But the writer makes all sorts of false assumptions about the MAKING of the show and the INTENT of those creating it. That's annoying to me.
See, I'm a HUGE fan of Batman, the Animated Series, and I have always openly admitted that the fact BTAS was successful gave Disney the courage to put Gargoyles on the air. But the assumption that we were chasing it, content-wise, is just wrong. So the idea that we were trying to emulate it and somehow blew it is ridiculous.
But in the end, to each his or her own. This review doesn't change my opinion. And if it had praised the series unrelentingly - that is, if it had praised something that I didn't feel deserved praise - it still wouldn't change my opinion of the series. My take: it's not perfect, but I'm extremely proud of the work we did.
Frankly, though, I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring this review to my attention. Is it fun to piss me off? Cuz it ain't fun to be pissed off.
I have a comment, and a question.
1. I hope you never have trouble finding work, your writing is quite inspiring. I just rewatched and, with great difficulty, reread the comics (hard to find them without paying a month's rent). It's nice to remember why I loved it so much as a kid, and find a lot more to fall in love with, like how I -never- even noticed 'David and Goliath' before.
2. Would you ever consider Kickstarter or Fig in order to get fundage to be able to work on Gargoyles more in some way?
1. Thank you. I have had trouble finding work at times, but that's the business I chose.
2. I can't crowd-fund something I don't own. And I don't own Gargoyles.
I'm way behind reading Ask Greg so I can't comment on anything current except this: Just showed my 7 year old her first episode of Gargoyles. (Also her almost 4 year old sister: My big one was willing to wait till seven, but not until we found a time my little one wasn't watching too, so she agreed to let her sister come into her bed if she woke up scared. I'm not being overprotective; she's crawled into my lap on Sofia the First episodes.) No big surprise, but they loved it. They begged to watch the second episode past bedtime because of the cliffhanger. (I would have caved had Awakenings been just a two parter.) It was pretty fascinating to keep my mouth shut and see them guess who was a good guy and who was a bad one.
You have made my day!
Hi Greg,
Today I was reflecting on a few instances in my life where I had to make difficult choices: the easy road or the right road. I can specifically remember thinking about integrity in those moments, thinking about Renaud's "What have I become?" versus Demona's "What have they done..." Ultimately, despite the difficulties, I tended to do the right thing and tell the truth, both to myself and to others. In one case, this resulted in me being fired from a job.
The reason I'm telling you this is that, while I had some excellent role models growing up who showed me integrity, it would be unfair to say that Gargoyles didn't have a strong influence in my youth that would lead me to become the man I am today. I am now a teacher of elementary school students and see many young people with and without strong moral role models. In either case, it is clear to me that they are very influenced by the movies, TV shows, celebrities and social media in their lives. And it is my hope that mixed into all the stimuli they are receiving the kind of moral reinforcement that I had in Gargoyles. I am very grateful to you and your peers for creating a program that I not only wanted to watch, but that made me a better person. There is a lot of red tape that goes into public school education, and I know that in your field there is a lot of that too. But I wanted to encourage you to remember the impact you can have on young people. It is not all about ratings and toy sales and demographics. You have the power to guide the adults of tomorrow. You certainly helped to guide me.
Keep up the great work! And thank you from a lifelong fan.
You just made my day. Thank you.
Hello, Mr. Weisman.
I've been rewatching some episodes of "Gargoyles" and reading some of your ramblings about the show, and I had a couple of interesting thoughts about the Pack:
The two most human members of the Pack, Fox and Dingo, are also the first to break off from the group. Fox basically ditched them as soon as Coyote entered the picture; she'll manipulate or work with her former co-stars if the mood strikes, sure, but otherwise, she's pretty much done with them. Dingo took a bit longer, but he left as well, and he also seems to be pretty much done with the Pack, apart from working for Fox in "Walkabout".
On a similar note, Fox and Dingo are also the only ones out of the Pack to have had their real names (or, in Fox's case, her birth name) revealed. They go by Fox and Dingo, but they were born Janine Renard and Harry Monmouth.
Contrast the others: long after Fox and Dingo have (mostly) gone straight, Wolf, Jackal, and Hyena continue a life of crime. On top of that, we have no other names by which to identify them (although, for some reason, I keep thinking that Wolf's first name is something like "Thomas"; probably just getting a little mixed-up with one of Clancy Brown's other roles on the show). They're the ones who discard their humanity for an extra edge. Unlike Fox and Dingo, who are people with vague beastly motifs, Wolf, Hyena, and Jackal are beasts in human skin (metaphorically speaking). We know them by no other names because they need no others. What their parents called them is irrelevant. Not only that, but they stayed together as a team up until Egypt (and will eventually reunite under Coyote as the Ultra-Pack). The beasts stayed a Pack, and the people set off on their own.
One last remark on the Pack's chosen names: Fox's and Dingo's mirror their heritages ("Renard" is French for "fox", and Dingo's Australian), while the other members have names that reflect who they are (Wolf was always a huge, growling brute, Hyena's a cackling killer, Jackal's amoral). Fox and Dingo CHOSE their names; Wolf, Hyena, and Jackal already WERE their names.
So, what do you think? Is this little analysis accurate at all (I could be way off, or reading too much into it; you, sir, would, of course know better than I would)?
In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to read this, and have a good day, Mr. Weisman.
I like it!!
I'm guessing you're a fan of Star Trek? Anyways, you're the man. Gargoyles kicks butt.
1. I am.
2. I like to think so.
3. Agreed.
;)
I just wanted to write and just give you some thanks for some of the great shows you have helped create, Greg.
Young Justice I enjoyed thoroughly, though I am more a fan of the first season than the second; I like fewer characters and more characterization as opposed to detailed plots just as a personal preference. I will also say I was not a fan of how Wally West was handled but I am sure you have heard your share of them. I will just say that the Wally of the comics and the Wally of Young Justice seemed to be entirely different characters which seemed a shame to me, given all that could have been done with him. He had such a rich comic book history that I really do not understand why more was not done with it but that is your creative decision. Just not my cup of tea.
I adored your version of Dick Grayson however. He was competent without being overly skilled; he suffered under pressure but learned from what he was exposed to. His relationship with Wally in Season 1 was one of my all time favorites. Thanks for the great run!
Secondly, I could not write you without mentioning Gargoyles. I mean, wow. I think I was in fifth or sixth grade when I first caught it on the air. I just remember being deeply enthralled with it. I thought Elisa was an awesome character, as I did not see a whole lot of strong female leads back then and she was definitely that. I also adored the interesting family background you gave her. So often, characters fall into the stereotypical white, black, etc and she brilliantly avoided those.
I also firmly owe you thanks for igniting my interest in Shakespeare. I remember that I saw "City of Stone" when we were having to pick plays and such to read/analyze for school and after seeing that awesome four parter, I went right to my English teacher and asked if I could read MacBeth. It is still my favorite of the Bard's works.
The characterization of Demona was incredible. Most villains are so one dimensional but all the villains of Gargoyles were so well fleshed out. I am a creative writer myself and working on my first work to aim towards publication and I definitely count Gargoyles among my top inspiration for how to do characterization. To this day, I will tell people if they want to see a well fleshed out villain, go watch Demona from Gargoyles. I honestly would rank her about equal to Gollum from "Lord of the Rings." She can be diabolical, sneaky, cruel and yet you can totally see why she would have turned out that way and I can switch very easily from feeling such anger at her to feeling overwhelming pity. Bravo, my good Sir!
Thanks. Always nice to have the work thoughtfully appreciated.
Since your famous show was on the blog, I figured I could watch the pilot episode of Gargoyles for the first time.
Enjoyed it. I had some questions about who was the hooded traitor, but I feel the twist with the Captain's betrayal will soon get resolved.
Keep up the good work, even though this episode was made 20 years ago. Wow, that's a long time ago...
Giant Boy
Yes, yes it is. But we're always glad to have new viewers. Keep up the good watching.
Greg Weisman: "I'd like to see a music video from Goliath's POV -- but featuring Elisa -- of "Amazing".
As per request:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6roY5udD8c&feature=c4-overview&list=UURD-80g-99JdhBskN6OXGGg
I hope it's the right "Amazing." Thank you for your time and the suggestion.
WOW!
I'll be honest, I don't actually remember asking for this, so I'm not sure if it's the "Amazing" I was thinking of, but boy it's perfect, isn't it? Anyway, whether or not I was smart to suggest it, you did a fantastic job.
I don't really have a question, but I want to thank you...
I am currently 17, and some of the best memories of my childhood involve your shows. I pitty those who will never know the joys of shows like Gargoyles... I know you get hundreds of messages saying this, but thank you, and I miss your work. You are a genious!
Thanks. (But I'm hoping you have no one to pity, because everyone's buying DVDs. Right? Right?)
ASK GREG LIVE! - WONDERCON 2013 REPORT
First, a little background. I'm going to quote a section from the introduction I made to to Station 8 Comment Room, waaaaaay back in July 2010:
"Given that I was three when Season 1 of 'Gargoyles' first began airing, I was obviously quite outside the target audience at that point, and if I watched any of the episodes on first airing I definitely don't remember them. Rather, my first clear memories of 'Gargoyles' were watching it during the late 90s when Toon Disney was first starting up. This produced some interesting experiences; for example, I never saw and indeed never even had a clue that 'Deadly Force' existed until Toon Disney started airing it again in 2002 or so.
At the time that I first was watching this show voraciously it was amongst a litany of dozens of other cartoons, some well-written ('Batman: The Animated Series,' 'Darkwing Duck,' etc.) and some...well, not so much (here's looking at you, 'Captain Planet'). To an eight year-old, there was little differentiation between the relative qualities of these shows, and it was not until a few years on that I really began to appreciate what a true gem 'Gargoyles' was.
I'm not entirely sure when my perspective changed, though it might have had something to do with the aforementioned first viewing of 'Deadly Force.' By this point I was a pre-teen, and old enough to understand the basics of S+P...so to see one of the protagonists shoot another one in the chest accidentally, nearly causing her to die was an absolute revelation to me. Around this time I began watching the entire series with new eyes, and what I saw astounded me.
The depth, the complexity, the characterization was unlike anything else I had ever seen on the small screen, live-action or animated. The little things that escaped me on the first, second, or even tenth viewing (yes, I watched a LOT of Toon Disney) suddenly rared to life and showed me how amazing this show was, is, and always will be. Everything from the sheer emotion that Tony Shalhoub brought to the show's single greatest cameo role to the little nuances about Lexington that made me think, 'Oh, of course!' when I learned that Greg considered him to be homosexual all became clear to me, and clearer and clearer with each viewing.
'Gargoyles' did much for me over the years. To take a particular example, when I first began really reading Shakespeare during mandatory reading times in high school, I went with 'A Midsummer Night's Dream,' then 'Macbeth,' and then, after the obvious 'Hamlet,' moving to 'Othello.' It shouldn't take too many guesses to figure out what attracted me to those plays specifically.
I have many obsessions in my life, some that have faded and some that have stayed with me forever. 'Gargoyles' stayed with me forever, and by the time I was about 13 or so it overtook virtually all of my other obsessions to become forefront in my fiction-dominated mind. I began searching around the internet for various little tidbits and behind-the-scenes stuff, and was blown away when I first discovered Greg's Master Plan. That someone could have so intricately designed such a massive and complex fictional universe intrigued me to no end...particularly 'Bad Guys,' since Dingo was at the time my favorite character.
On one of my frequent revisitings of the Master Plan in 2004, I ended up clicking around some links that brought me to the FAQ...and consequently to AskGreg. If the Master Plan had blown me away, then this site caused my mind to spontaneously combust. So many hints and clues to what the future might hold for the series, should Disney allow it to somehow continue...straight from the mouth of the creator himself! In all the years since that I've been up and around the world wide web, never have I again seen such a direct, easy-to-access method of communication to the artist behind such a masterful work.
Over the years, I have read virtually every single post in the AskGreg archives, some of them several dozen times. It is one of the websites that I frequent several times a day without fail, and I have gained an uncountable amount of enrichment from reading it constantly. It was through this site that I first learned of the DVDs and comics, all of which I purchased as soon as I could possibly get my hands on them, and of the Gathering, the scope of which shocked and awed me.
One of my greatest regrets is that I was never able to attend one of these amazing events; convincing your parents to let you fly out of Hawaii to the mainland for a convention on a 90s cartoon isn't the easiest thing in the world. And although I WAS actually in town for the final one, Gathering 2009 happened to fall on the EXACT same weekend as my college orientation. If the Gathering had been just one week later, or my introduction to Pomona College just one week sooner...but I guess it's pointless to deal with hypotheticals.
In any event, my praise goes out to all of you unbelievably dedicated individuals who kept it alive for so long. If ever you are able to arrange some sort of smaller event in the future, you have my word that I will attend.
AskGreg also gave the chance to really get to know Greg Weisman (or at least, as much as this is possible without real-world contact), and he is currently one of my absolute greatest heroes in all of entertainment. I am not using hyperbole when I declare him to be the single most talented writer in animation history, and in my mind absolutely anything he touches turns to solid gold. I avidly watched 'W.I.T.C.H.,' 'The Spectacular Spider-Man,' and the various episodes he freelanced for favorite shows of mine like 'The Batman,' 'Kim Possible,' and 'Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go!'...many of which turned out to be some of the best in their respective series. And I wait with bated breath (and fanboyish panting) for 'Young Justice.' Spider-Man is my favorite Marvel superhero and DC is my favorite comic book universe...so to have Greg interpret both with his usual flair for complex, multi-layered story arcs and deeply involved character development has left me positively salivating."
Now, as you can probably tell from these words, this was a moment I've been waiting on for nearly 10 years. So as you might expect, I was...anxious. Despite my personal contact with Greg over the past couple years due to my moderating duties here, as well as friends who had met him previously who assured me that he was a really nice guy in-person, I was still a little worried I'd screw this up somehow.
Thankfully, ASK GREG LIVE! turned out to be a great experience, and truly the highlight of the weekend. There was somewhere between 15-20 guests in attendance, including myself, my girlfriend, and Blaise (whom it was awesome to meet in person). Kudos to Matthew for holding up the event sign for over an hour, and to whoever it was that cosplayed as Batgirl.
We pretty much just jumped straight into an hour-and-a-half of questions, which I hope I didn't hog too many of. A few highlights from the revelations presented therein:
- Following the Season 1 finale, Vandal immediately called up Hugo Strange and told him, "Open all the doors." Which explains a lot. Now, Greg W. ALSO said that by Team Year Five, Belle Reve was fairly full again...but at least it explains why so many imprisoned villains were walking the streets again in Season 2.
- The Joker was originally considered to appear in "Auld Acquaintance," controlling the Justice League. But for a variety of reasons (mainly budgetary; they needed Klarion anyway for the "magic stuff"), they switched him out for Klarion.
- Greg also responded to my question about whether the Joker of Earth-16 knows he's in a cartoon show by saying, "I think he's crazy enough to believe that, even if he's NOT."
- Lieutenant and Sergeant Marvel were originally considered to be on the Team in Season 2. But with only 20 episodes, several intended arcs were cut or reworked to have occurred during the Time Skip: a Marvel Family arc, a Red Tornado arc, and a Zatanna arc. With nothing to do anymore, Mary and Freddy were slotted into the Time Skip.
- He hinted pretty damn strongly that we'll be hearing more about "poor, disgraced Ocean-Master." Presumably in "Legacy," which I am personally excited as all hell for.
- Clone!Roy, post-"Satisfaction," is a stay-at-home-dad. For the most part. He and Cheshire are "trying to make it work," to the degree that people like them can.
- I asked if working on YJ had made him give more thought to who the 16 Sixteens in the Illuminati are. He basically said, "not really," while adding that he's got most of the major players in the Illuminati pretty well figured out, and has for a while. Which isn't to say he doesn't leave a fair few slots open for moments of epiphany.
- Darkseid has been the Light's silent partner since Season 1. Which most of us had assumed, but it's nice to have firm confirmation.
- Victor Cook did a fly-by. No time for questions, just said hi and name-dropped "Mecha-Nation." But still...really cool.
- He described Jason Spisak's last recording with them. Jason came up afterward and said that it was rare for an actor to be able to end his role on such a great, final note, "instead of just flying off into the sunset, with no one having any idea if you survive or not." Having now seen "Dark Matter," Greg believes that may have been coded snark.
- Oh, and surprising no one with a head on their shoulders...Greg disproved the rumor that DC wanted Wally killed off because of the New 52. Though it WAS amusing to hear him call those rumors, and I quote: "Complete horse"...baloney.
- He said he's deliberately keeping mum on "Rain of the Ghosts" until he knows if his publisher is doing any advertising. If they don't, he may start teasing some plot tidbits on Ask Greg.
- He talked a bit about availability issues...about how it came to be that Wentworth, Kittie, and George were replaced toward the end of the season. Just a whole lot of REALLY bad luck regarding other projects. But he also revealed the replacement that almost was...if it wasn't for the fact that no one on Earth could do an impression that did justice to him.
That's right...they once almost lost Tim Curry.
He was shooting something or another toward the middle of the season. They simply could not get him before the episodes had to ship. So what they did...was Greg recorded the lines. Taaaaaaaaalking liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis sooooooooooo thaaaaaaaaat theeeeeeeey cooooooould AAAAAAADR iiiiiiiiiiiit aaaaaaaaafteeeeeeer theeeeeeey reeeeeetuuuuuuurned froooooooom ooooooverseeeeeeeeeeas.
Which they would NEVER do otherwise. For no one but Tim Curry. Greg had to do a bunch of takes, because Jamie kept having to stop him and shout, "SLOWER!" Needed the mouth movements SO exaggerated that no one would notice it was ADR'ed. Which I don't think anyone did.
- I think those are all the big revelations, but there was lots of real fun little stuff on Greg's writing process, the backroom thinking that went into Darkseid's cameo, and Greg's hopes for the future. As he said at one point, "I still haven't given up on Gargoyles, and that's going on 20 years at this point! Why would I give up on a series that ended THIS month?"
Beyond that, it was just an incredible experience to be in the presence of the guy - to hear him speak, to ask questions (even utterly silly ones) directly answered to our faces, to shake hands, and to be personally thanked for my years of hard work on Ask Greg...which, needless to say, was incredibly gratifying.
The atmosphere was great - casual, friendly, and with no pressure on either the askers or on Greg. We chatted, we laughed, and we got to hear Greg at his absolute "frankest." Which is to say, a little...off-color. And oh it was glorious.
At my request, we also did an impromptu signing at the end; I got my Clan-Building Volume 1 trade, my SpecSpidey Season 1 DVD, my Young Justice Volume 1 trade, a Captain Atom comic, and the essay I wrote for Contemporary Political Theory last semester (and submitted to Ask Greg afterward) signed, and pretty much geekgasmed into the floor. SOOOOO utterly wonderful.
[If you want to see pics of said signed stuff and/or other stuff I snagged at the Con, you can go here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/94547312@N04/sets/72157633137324644/with/8608204054/].
We also got to chat a bit privately, which was of course very good fun. And he even indulged my stupid, silly, obsessive request...to pose with my Fluttershy toy and say, "Fluttershy is best pony." His response was golden, too.
Greg: I have no idea what that means.
Me: I didn't expect you to.
Greg: Nah, what I mean is, am I saying something that will get a thousand angry bronies coming after me?
Me: No, most bronies tend to agree that Fluttershy is best pony, anyway.
Unfortunately, my girlfriend's phone appears to have recorded only the first second of the line. But I still posted it to YouTube because the image is gold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qVVtIsNeb4
Overall, my first in-person meeting with Greg Weisman proved to be everything I was hoping for it to be, and more. He's a massively cool guy who doesn't operate on any pretense; he is what he is, and what he is is a genius at writing/interpreting fiction.
It was truly an honor to spend that time with him, and I very much hope it won't be the last.
Greg Weisman, you rock (woo-hoo!). Don't let anybody tell you different. Because this kind of treatment of your fans makes me truly proud to be involved with helping out here.
Thank you for ASK GREG LIVE!
Thank you for all the wonderful shows you've brought us over the years.
And thank you for never giving up hope. I await "Rain of the Ghosts" with bated breath, and I can't wait to here the announcement when you get your next television gig.
Because it's coming. And I look forward to watching the hell out of that show, whenever it comes.
Wow. Dude, do you really want to stoke my ego THAT MUCH?
Anyway, it was great meeting you too. You're contribution to Ask Greg has been invaluable.
I hope you're thinking about coming to ConVergence this July for the Gargoyles Reunion convention within a convention. More details on that should be forthcoming this month.
Years ago in a long ramble (http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=225), I mentioned that: "I'd like to see a music video featuring Demona to Dido's'White Flag.'"
Well, NeillGargoyle found that obscure request and posted this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNGrg5Wm12E
Pretty much exactly what I had in mind!
Thanks, Neill!
Now if someone would just do this one: "I'd like to see a music video from Goliath's POV -- but featuring Elisa -- of "Amazing". (I think that's the title. I'm not sure who the artist or band is.)"
Hello Mr Weisman,
I just wanted to thank you for your amazing work. I really hate to see Young Justice over so soon but loved every minute of it as a huge comic fan.
I also loved Gargoyles. My mom and I used to watch it together all the time. We loved the series from start to finish. My mom died a few years back and when I really miss her, I watch Gargoyles. Even after all this time I can still remember her comments on her favorite episodes and it's very comforting to have that to fall back on. I don't think I'm explaining myself well, but thank you for giving us something we could enjoy so much together, and something to help me remember her with. I look forward to your next projects.
Kris W
Kris, my condolences for the loss of your mother. And thank you for such kind words. You could hardly have paid me a nicer compliment, and I truly appreciate it.
An attempt at alliteration.
Alice asked "And aliens are attacking? "
"Aye." Articulated Andrew "Asia, America and Australia are annihilated."
Astounded, Alice approached an alcove as Andrew advanced.
"And?"
"Assaulted as an apparition approached." Andrew answered.
"Appearing as?" asked Alice annoyed.
"Ant's, antlers, and arms amalgamated."
"Absurd!"
"Aye, Alice. An abomination, absurd, appalling and approaching."
Angrily Alice answered, "As always Andrew, Anonymous' annoying artifice as absurd as…"
"Ain't artifice, Alice." Andrew answered, "Article's accredited and authority approved."
"Aha! All authorized article are a__" Alice added acidly "And another airhead against acknowledging actuality approves absurdity again!"
Annoyed, Andrew absconded.
As an affiliate, Andrew acquiesced an alternate angle and amusedly appraised another acclaimed article about an author annoying an audience at an auditorium, apparently articulating asinine abstractions abundantly as animatronics animated and artificially attempted an aria affronted an attendant.
"Alice's always abrogating and annulling aberrations." Andrew accounted ambulating amongst an alley, again approaching Alice's abode.
"AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH"
Awakened and activated at Alice's anguished articulation; Andrew approached an alarming appearance and aspired. An aliens arm arrested Alice against an archway.
Attempting an assault at an abdomen as Andrew appraised, an appendage altered and abated Andrews advancing attack. Astounded at an accelerated adaptation, Andrew arsled away, aimed an armament and applied an alternate approach.
Appearing accomplished, Andrew articulated again. "Ain't artifice Alice."
Astonished Alice answered, "Well, do you freaking blame me?"
Um.... okay....
(backs away slowly...)
Which fandom do you honestly appreciate the most:
1- Gargoyles fans
2- Spectacular Spider-Man fans
3- Young Justice fans
4- Greg Weisman fans
See, now, the Hulk is more powerful because the madder he gets, the stronger he gets. But the Thing can still beat him if he keeps his wits about him.
Hey Greg! Hope that you're doing well, and that the holiday season is treating/did treat (depending on when you read this) your family happily.
What follows is a paper I recently submitted to my Contemporary Political Theory class at Pomona College, interrelating several of the concepts from the book we discussed that week ("You Are Not a Gadget" by Jaron Lanier) with the notion of namelessness in traditional gargoyle culture.
My professor (unfamiliar with the show, but very intrigued when I explained it to her) really got a kick out of the piece, and I earned a more-or-less "A-" equivalent for it. But as long as I've got it sitting around, I figured you might enjoy giving it a read as well.
[NOTE: You may want to review this post you made on Ask Greg in 2004 beforehand, as it is cited frequently: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=387].
Now, without further ado, the essay. It has been edited from the submitted version only by rearranging paragraph breaks...
The 1994 animated television series Gargoyles posits a highly intelligent species which dominated the Earth prior to human genesis and ascendance.
These gargoyles possess a unique culture which predates humanity's by a significant period, but the first on-screen depiction of the gargoyle species takes place in the 10th century, after millions of years of convergent evolution between the two cultures.
Indeed, the pilot episodes depict the essential death of one lingering component of gargoyle culture, at least for the series protagonists: that gargoyles lack personal names. This idea is first discussed in a conversation between two gargoyles and a human boy:
TOM: I'm Tom. What's your name?
GARGOYLE #1: Except for Goliath, we don't have names.
TOM: How do you tell each other apart?
GARGOYLE #1: We look different.
TOM: But what do you call each other?
GARGOYLE #2: (shrugs) Friend.
For context, "Goliath" is the leader of the clan of gargoyles to which the protagonists belong, and their liaison to the humans with whom they share an uneasy alliance; those humans felt incapable of dealing with a nameless entity, and Goliath did not bother to reject the name they selected for him.
Still, he does not use the name in communicating with his own clan until a betrayal by their human allies and a magical curse cause the protagonists to sleep as statues and then reawaken in 20th century Manhattan.
Here they meet and befriend Elisa Maza, a police detective who is both confused by and - for reasons she has trouble articulating - uncomfortable with this traditional lack of names. The following exchange takes place between Elisa and the clan's elderly mentor:
ELISA: Are you coming on the tour…uh, what do I call you, anyway?
GARGOYLE: Must you humans name everything? Nothing's real to you till you've named it, given it limits!
ELISA: It's not like that! It's just that…well, uh…things need names.
GARGOYLE: Does the sky need a name? Does the river?
ELISA: The river's called the Hudson.
GARGOYLE: (sighs) Fine, lass…then I will be 'the Hudson' as well.
ELISA: Great! Hudson it is.
From that point onward, that particular gargoyle is known as Hudson, and only Hudson.
The younger gargoyles who survived the centuries follow suit; the two who conversed with Tom become Lexington and Brooklyn, for example. And Goliath more-or-less fully accepts the moniker afforded him by the Dark Age humans.
As Gargoyles creator Greg Weisman points out, "naming is clearly addictive," and once they are established the convenience they offer makes doing away with them virtually impossible. Thus, for the Manhattan Clan of gargoyles, namelessness largely remains a thing of the past for the remainder of the series.
In "You Are Not a Gadget," Jaron Lanier describes the phenomenon experienced by these gargoyles using the term "lock-in."
As Lanier puts it, "lock-in…removes design options based on what is easiest to program, what is politically feasible, what is fashionable, or what is created by chance." Furthermore, the process "also reduces or narrows the ideas it immortalizes, by cutting away the unfathomable penumbra of meaning."
Despite originally referring to programming language, this is a perfect description of the process that "Hudson" has been subjected to in the previous scene.
Names are a method of defining identity, which necessarily must involve "giving it limits." But in traditional gargoyle culture, identity has greater meaning than that; it is amorphous, and changes with the circumstances.
The gargoyle who first made a compact with the humans at Castle Wyvern is the same gargoyle who mated three times and produced three progeny; he is the same gargoyle who fought the evil Archmage and received a wound that blinded him in one eye; he is the same gargoyle who slept for centuries and once awakened, found himself fascinated with the television show "Celebrity Hockey."
Does one name - Hudson - really encapsulate all of these aspects of his identity?
In-and-of-itself, all it signifies is that the place Hudson awoke in was modern-day New York (a cut line from the episode's script even has Elisa commenting, "Good thing we weren't facing Queens," emphasizing with humor how off-hand and esoteric the choice was).
That name was "locked-in" as the full and entire representation of the character from that point onward, solely because it was politically feasible (it makes dealing with Elisa and later human allies far more expedient), it was fashionable (every other intelligent being in 1994 New York has a name, so why not the gargoyles?), and it was created by chance (quite literally in this case, as the "Queens" quote illustrates).
And the result is that the very meaning of his identity is narrowed. He is no longer capable of being someone at a particular moment, and someone else in the next.
He is always Hudson.
There is an even greater story here, however, which Weisman's later musings have helped to illuminate. As he once observed, "Gargoyles don't seem to have a native language. They acquire human language, perhaps much the same way that they acquire names…And language, in many ways, is just sophisticated naming."
This is a compelling point. As he later notes, a different and arguably much more persuasive response that Elisa could have offered is that the river is called "the river."
Languages are systems for describing objects, concepts, actions, etc. using strict and uniform definitions, confining them to names that society calls words.
But does a name like "the sky" really fully encapsulate the meaning inherent within the depths that humans observe from below? Does it even begin to provoke a holistic understanding of its astronomical, religious, chemical, or poetic contexts?
And even more to the point, what of metaphysical concepts like "justice"? Can a single clear definition even exist for such a weighty and nebulous notion - and if not, does sticking the name "justice" to it not necessarily limit it?
Lanier certainly appears to believe so. As he conceives it, the system of symbology under which all current human languages operate is itself a lock-in; at best, a "middleman" between intent and "directly creating shared experience" that he wants to work to cut out.
His method for doing so is improvements on virtual reality, until researchers develop "the ability to morph at will, as fast as we can think."
Lanier envisions a world where the rather simplistic words "I'm hungry" will not be the only way to communicate the sensation which has brought them on - instead, he sees potential in the power of virtual reality technology to place us in the bodies of others, as a way to intimate the sensation itself.
Humanity would no longer have to be limited to extracting some piece of the concept it calls "hunger," giving it that name, and using it as code so that others who know the symbology of the English language will understand some approximation of that concept.
The concept would simply be understood, and communication would be a straightforward matter of imparting that understanding.
But perhaps there is an even better solution than this - although one that is, unfortunately, largely forgotten.
Presented with the puzzle that gargoyles are highly gregarious and intelligent by nature and yet appear to lack any notion of their own language, Weisman has mused that perhaps, long before human language evolved and became the locked-in method for communication, the gargoyle species possessed "mild psychic abilities that left them with no need to create language."
While emphasizing that he was only asserting a possibility, the communication he imagines - where it was not "words that they intuited (or transmitted or read or whatever) but emotions, maybe images or sensations" - sounds exceedingly similar to what Lanier hopes to achieve through virtual reality.
Such communication would be consistent with what audience knows about pre-human gargoyle culture, where definition and identity are situational as opposed to consistently codified.
But if that is the case, it leads to a rather lamentable conclusion. As Weisman puts it, "perhaps the very language skills that gargoyles learned from the human race dampened their psychic intuitiveness;" in other words, lock-in of a very particular method of communication (symbology) "locked-out" another method that presented communicative possibilities human technology can currently only dream of.
The initial insistence on not using personal names, then, can be considered a lingering hold-out of a bygone era where every concept was considered unlimited, and every sensation intimated in their full depth.
In dealing with nascent human cultures, gargoyles must have gradually accepted the limiting of concepts like "sky" or "river" because this made interspecies congress significantly more efficient, but they resisted the longest on the limiting of the very depths of the self.
But with the permanent instatement of "Hudson" and the rest, there does not appear to be room to return to the possibilities an unlimited identity presents. Human language has killed them.
Of course, both the gargoyle race and their culture are fantastical constructions, but that does not necessarily mean that humans cannot learn from their fictional example.
While humans do not seem to share these "mild psychic abilities" (although there are some who would vehemently disagree with that statement) that Weisman hypothesizes, that there are methods of sensation and communication which precede language skills is clearly documented.
As with gargoyles, members of the species Homo sapiens did exist well before the development of the earliest known language, and while current understanding of those early cultures is limited at best, there is also a much more immediate example to turn to.
Newborns spend a few years before they learn to define the world around them in the code of words - the sun is an experience to them long before the strictly defined, limiting name of "the sun" is ever applied to it.
The depths of what could be learned from observing children raised without learning language skills, interpreting sensations and intimating them to others via methods of their own device, are boundless; of course, the enormous ethical travesty presented by such experiments means they are not a viable avenue for inquiry.
So instead, humans turn to fiction - attempting to realize through others what that they have long since lost, and yearn to find again.
Greg Weisman has often described gargoyle culture, and pre-human gargoyle culture specifically, as something of a wish fulfillment for him. "I'm such a human," he laments with a written-out sigh, "But I aspire to gargoylosity."
Well, if the virtual reality morphing that so excites Jaron Lanier can indeed allow humans to experience sensation as a pre-human gargoyle (or a pre-language human, or a baby, or even a cephalopod) did/does - if it has the potential to turn the clock back as well as forward, and show what it is like for things simply to be, without the cumbersome and restrictive middleman of naming them - then perhaps that is an aspiration that more humans should share.
At first, when you mentioned 'You Are Not a Gadget', I couldn't help thinking the follow-up statement would be 'You Are a Chip, a Dale or a Monterey Jack'. Talk about lock-in.
Anyway, is it immodest to say that your essay warmed my heart? I enjoyed reading it. And I found it quite insightful. I do believe my own thinking has evolved since I wrote that ramble on gargoyles' latent psychic abilities. My thinking now is less psychic and more intuitive based on sensory clues.
But it doesn't change my positive response to your thesis. And it also speaks to one of my goals - perhaps even needs (NEEDS) - as a writer. Using words, multiple, multiple words, in an attempt to reach beyond the lock-in that comes with words like river or sun or Hudson or, most especially, Greg. The original version of Hudson's line was something like: 'Nothing is real to you until you've named it, defined it, given it limits.' More words to more fully illustrate the concept. And often in my writing I find myself trying to paint pictures with more and more words in an almost poetic sense. That verbosity is often counterproductive when writing dialogue. But I LIKE to think it lends - even when cut back and cut down - a certain depth to the dialogue. But it's a constant push and pull in my writing between trying to find just the one right word and using many, many to paint that fuller picture.
Hello once again, Mr. Weisman.
Fully expecting it to be months before you get to this question, but patience is a virtue, so...
1) Is the Brain gay? I suspect that you may not answer this one, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, so I thought I'd ask.
2) How did the Brain become a disembodied... well, brain?
3) Two previous posts had you give Wonder Woman's age as 90, then 85. Was the difference because you'd already started working on the post-timeskip timeline?
4) For your production bible, do you assign real names to characters who traditionally lack them (Bane, the Joker, the Brain, etc.)?
5) How does the Light recruit supervillains to work for them (apart from the League of Shadows and the member's own forces)?
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, and thank you for Gargoyles, a series I greatly enjoyed when I was younger (I've had the misfortune of not seeing an episode in several years). It meant a great deal to me, and helped inspire my interest in storytelling and Shakespeare (the former more than the latter, but Gargoyles introduced me to the Bard's work). It is very much appreciated, and I will remember Gargoyles for a very long time indeed. Have a good day, sir.
1. He's still in the canister.
2. See Young Justice issue #19.
3. I dunno. The timeline is very long, and sometimes I misread it.
4. Generally, no. But I do - with the help of loremaster John Wells - reach back to find any name that might exist in the DCU canon.
5. It's all case-by-case.
Heya Greg! I know your focus has been on Young Justice lately (as it should be) but hopefully you wonât mind kicking it a little old-school and reading fans gush about Gargoyles. This is more of a ramble than a question but hopefully you wonât mind.
I have a good friend that lives in another state that is fairly arduous driving distance away so we only see each other in person every couple months. Naturally one of our main ways of staying in touch is talking via IM. And one thing we do is choose shows one of us has never seen (mostly her, but occasionally me) and watch episodes at the same time we talk to each other, so weâre watching âtogetherâ even if weâre not actually together. We actually have a standing list of things we want to go through this way. And a short while ago my friend chose to start Gargoyles. We blew through all five parts of Awakening in one session and I thought you might get a kick out of seeing some choice bits of our conversation. (And yes my friend did give permission for me to share this with you.) Thereâs going to be more of what she has to say than me because I feel like reading me responding to her reactions with, âWhy yes that IS awesome and part of the reason I love this showâ would get old after awhile. The âchoice bitsâ are still pretty long, but hopefully you wonât mind too terribly.
Quick background. We are both of the female persuasion. Iâm 24 and have a B.A. in English and am going back to school in the fall for a Library Science degree. Sheâs 20 and a Creative Writing major at a University that feels there is very clear divide between âliteratureâ and âentertainmentâ and that all genre fiction falls into the latter category by default.
Needless to say, since both of us are fans of Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Animationâ¦we disagree with that. A lot.
Iâm going slightly out of order, starting with her reaction to seeing the theme song before getting into the actual episode stuff. Iâll use [] to indicate me making a comment or an edit after the fact. âJâ indicates my comments. âMâ is my friend.
J
Oh and THEME SONG OF EPICNESS
M
Preeeeetty
J
Awesome visuals are awesome
M
Hey wait a minute
I've totally heard this before
J
The interwebs loves Gargoyles
M
I've never seen the visuals to the theme song though
Heeeeee
J
So you probably have
M
As the interwebs should
J
I KNOW RIGHT!!??
M
IT'S EPIC
[Start of Episode 1]
J
What do you know about Gargoyles already?
M
There are charries named Puck and Oberon
That's all I know
[First battle between Vikings and Gargoyles]
M
Ooooh that was really good animation
J
1994
Damn straight
[Meaning that itâs still impressive now, and considering that itâs from 1994, is even more-so]
[The Banquet]
M
Hi hot lady
Hi fabulous Pegasus-like man
[Pegasus is a villain from season 1 of Yu-Gi-Oh with long white hair and aâ¦distinctive personality]
M
Hey
I know your voice
Hi Jeff Bennet?
[Re Demona and Goliathâs conversation with the Captain of the Guard after leaving the Banquet]
M
Redhead needs a haircut
I really like their relationship though so far
It seems rooted in a mutual respect
M
WHY AREN'T RELATIONSHIPS IN TV LIKE THIS ANYMORE
YES
M
THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO
M
THANK YOU GREG WEISMAN
M
THIS IS HOW RELATIONSHIPS IN TV SHOULD WORK
[Goliath and Hudson falling into the Vikings trap]
M
Hi horsies!
Oooooh
Uh oh
Raaawwwwr
Ohhhhh
I see
They turn to stone in the sun
J
Yep.
And at night they're awake
M
That was a good bit of exposition
I just got back from seeing Puss in Boots yesterday and while it was good there was a *ton* of unnecessary exposition in dialogue
Ummmmmm
[The start of the Wyvern Massacre with the Hakon and the Captain arguing over smashing the Gargoyles]
M
Oh dear
Oh dear
Hello high [conflict]
NO
DON'T DO IT
DON'T
NO
YOU DIDN'T!
NO!
M
Holy [censored]
I feel bad
And I don't even know who that guy is
That gargoyle rather
[J] why didn't I watch this show as a kid?
[Episode 2]
M
I love the Magus
J
Can I marry Keith David's voice?
M
NO
GET IN LINE
M
Maaaguuuus
I love you already
J
"He's going to slay her!"
J
Like Buffy
M
Heeeeee
Wait is she really dead?
GO MAGUS!
J
*is behind you*
M
"You are the betrayer?"
"All of my kind are dead"
M
"YOU LYING SCUM!"
Uh o
DON'T
FALL OFF
NO
Oh okay
Awwww Goliath
Uh oh
"What sorcery is this?"
M
Can I marry the Magus?
J
Get in line :P
M
Oooooh nice twist
[1994]
M
Pretty grass
Hello long time in the future?
long time passed*
Who is this guy and when can I [censored] him?
And his tech guy?
J
Xanatos is dark hair and beard
Blonde glasses is Owen
And again get in line :P
M
Heeeeeeeeee
DAMN
J
"Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into hell."
M
He has a HELICOPTER
M
I want him
He just needs to shave and clip the ponytail
J
I think the goatee and ponytail are sexy. So clearly I love him more than you do and should have him.
M
Heeeeeeeeeeeeee
I'll take his tech guy happily
J
Yeah you can't have him either :P
M
Awwwwww
No fair
J says
You're about eighteen years too late :P
M
Heeeeeee
M
WAIT
Do we get to see the Magus anymore?
J
I can't tell you :P
No spoilers remember
M
Heeeeeee
Because if I don't I will cry
M
This may be an off guess but are any of the present-charries descended from the past-charries?
But you can't answer that either
J
No spoilers LOL
This is fuuuun
M
:P
Seeing all my wild guesses
M
Ooooh
I love Xan
J
I know you do.
M
This show has been really good about engaging right from the pilot
So far it hasn't really been talk-heavy
[Episode 3]
M
Owen is totally Magus
J
I think they're both voiced by Jeff Bennet
M
They're totally related in some way
J
Elisa is quipping a la Buffy before Buffy
M
But Goliiath wil save her
I love the Gargoyles
It's a nice deviation from what you'd expect
J
How so?
M
They're very respectful
M
And not all grrrrr
They have morals and principles they go by and they're fairly peaceful
M
Heeeee hundreds of spells
On a floppy
M
My 1TB talisman can kick its ass
M
I really really like this show so far
M
AND IS THAT THE REDHEAD LADY?
I saw poof
I'm so confused
M
But it's *really* hard for me to get into most shows and I'm into this one
Honestly I didn't think I would.
J
Am I not awesome at showing you things you'd like?
M
I mean I didnât think I'd hate it
Heeeeeee
You aaare
M
Detective lady is wearing mom jeans
M
I really like that concept
J
Which concept?
M
Of not having names for things
M
And they utilize a large cast very well by having a few characters around at a time and having their different reactions ot the same world
M
We get expositoon that way and viewers aren't bogged down or feel the need to spread their interest too thin
Just "oh hey going on a NY adventure"
[When the Trio fight off the gang after saving Brendan and Margot]
M
Oooh interesting
That the guys react with fear initially and then charge
This show is really well-crafted
M
I mean you could just classify this as 'low-brow kids' entertainment' but it's really more than that
It's a beautiful work of art and storytelling that's fun and fanciful
J
Exactly.
J
There's so much work put into it and it shows.
M
And it has layered, deep conflict
Oh yes
J
IMO it's art
M
It's wonderful
Yes.
Exactly.
Very good, show!
Tranqs take a while to take effect
M
But yeah [censored] 'high art.' This is art
J
It's got all the complexity of a Shakespearean drama. It just happens to be animated and feature fantastic elements.
M
Oh yeah. I agree 100%
[Episode 4]
M
This show handles exposition beautifully
J
It does
Seriously Greg Weisman is the MASTER of set-up and payoff.
M
It really works.
M
THIS IS WHAT I SHOULD BE LEARNING IN FICTION CLASS
DARNIT
[Re Elisa hiding from the goons]
M
Uhhhhho oh
Way to make the tension rise
That's beautiful
M
THAT'S HOW YOU DO PACING FICTION CLASS
M
I rather like the music for this show too
M
I'm still kind of enamored by the whole show
It does action sequences very well too
M
Greg Weisman is incredibly talented and I bet my fiction prof would hate his guts
J
Oh yeah. The physicality is great. Not overdone and very realistic.
[Re Demona and Goliathâs reunion]
M
That's an evil smile
I don't like that
Awwww wing hug
M
That's so BEAUTIFUL
SEEE LITERARY FICTION?
SEE WHAT YOU CAN DO?
M
SEE THAT THIS IS NOT BULL[CRAP]?
J
I totally wrote a paper for a Shakespeare course that involved Gargoyles. I got an A in that class. :)
M
You are amazing
J
They said KILL
M
THEY DID
J
Whooooo!
[Episode 5]
J
Do not mess with old guys and dogs
Especially if they're Gargoyles
M
Hee
J
And hi G-rated version of Lethal Weapon line
M
TRAAAIN
M
And that is why you back up your files
[Re the Blimp being on fire and falling]
J
And that would not be a scene post 9-11
M
No it would not
J
I think there'd be a lot less stuff blowing up in general
M
Yeah
[Again re Demona and Goliath]
M
THIS NEEDS TO BE THE MODEL FOR FICTIONAL RELATIONSHIPS
GOD WHY IS THIS SO AMAZING
M
Awwwww Goliiiiath
J
Look at Lexington his laptop
M
Heeeeeeee
J
That has like 250 MB memory LOL
J
Hi Demona
You want to marry her too yes?
M
No
J
Really?
M
I don't like her hair :P
*is shallow*
J
Aside from the hair :P
M
Yes
J
I kneeeeeew it
You villain sluuuuut
M
I aaaaaaam
I can't heeeelp it
J
Heh Chinese food
J says
HEEeeeeGiants
GO GIANTS!
M says
That's a funny way to spell Patriots Jess
[This was soon after the Super-Bowl. Sheâs based in New England and Iâm from New York.]
J
:P
And that's it
Final thoughts?
M
GAHHHHHHHH
THIS IS WHAT ART IS SUPPOSED TO BE
M
THIS IS WHAT ENTERTAINMENT SHOULD STRIVE TO BE
M
SCREW THAT HIGH ART CRAP
J
Exactly. I have taught you well young Padawan.
M
*bows*
Hopefully that put a smile on your face. We will be watching the rest of Gargoyles, and eventually W.I.T.C.H, Spectacular Spidey, and Young Justice.
I did want to ask, would you be interested in reading more of what we say as we watch?
Subsequent conversation snippets will probably be shorter, but I understand youâre very busy and that Ask Greg can get backlogged. Iâd only want to continue sending this kind of ramble if itâs something that you would enjoy reading, as a small way to pay you back for the excellent entertainment you provide. Iâd never want it to be a chore or something you feel you have to slog through.
So yeah. Hope you enjoyed! Please continue making awesome shows so we can keep watching. :)
I would be interested - though even admitting that fact makes me sound conceited. It's like, "Hey, post praise!" But basically, what I mean to say is, "Hey, post praise!"
But of course, in the interest of accuracy, I should point out that in your responses to her you really give all the credit to me, and that's, well, silly. Michael Reaves wrote all five scripts that you were praising. Frank Paur supervised all the storyboards and editing. (And those two talented guys are just the TIP of the Gargoyles iceberg.) I'm not saying I didn't contribute. I like to think I contributed a lot to both script and picture, but it was NEVER a one man show.
Hi there! This isn't actually a question, but it's the only way I saw of contacting Greg. I just wanted to say thank you for creating Gargoyles and thank you for making such a rich, elaborate show. Your cartoon formed a big chunk of my childhood, and the storytelling introduced me to so many different aspects of the world of fantasy. It was my favorite thing to watch when I was little. I hope this gets passed along and you get to see it. This show just means a lot to me.
Thank you for the kind words, Briget. It meant a lot to me to. Still does.
I've mistakenly put typos in my name for my last two questions now & I'm terribly sorry for that especially since you put yourself out to answer all of our questions.
Don't worry about it.
As of writing this, it is the 17th anniversary of Gargoyles. Made a comment in the room but wanted to share here:
"Sorry about the double, I saw vinnie took two spots and decided THIS was a countdown I wanted to be a part of. My countdown number is especially fitting, as I was 10 when Gargoyles premiered.
17 years. My God. I remember seeing the preview commercial once or twice. Running home after school, literally running, so I could catch the premier and every episode thereafter. Enough to make me feel a little choked-up. Nearly getting a lump in the back of my throat.
Phoenician> I do believe I will join you in watching one episode of awakening everyday [this week]. It must be providence. I just received my season one back from a friend, to whom I lent my seasons so she could show her son.
She said that at first, he was watching the episodes alone. After a while, she remembered why she liked the show so much and they now watch them together. They are now somewhere in season 2.
It's nearly 1 AM. I believe I will put in the DVD, raise a toast, and enjoy the beginning chapter of a phenomenal series.
In the already spoken words of Vinnie, "And away we go on with the show."
Lurker - [!)]"
Greg, the show is something that has always stuck with me, as it has many others. In case you didnt know ;) I just wanted to thank you for continuing to work on the show, in the sense that you have never given up on it. Thank you for allowing fans to interact with you and ask you various things. Thank you for the contributions to my childhood and all the wonderful memories.
You're very welcome. And thanks to all the Gargoyles fans who have kept the faith and stuck with me and the show for all these years.
Less a question, more of a comment. While visiting one of my dearest friends over in Long Island over the summer, one of the things we did together was watch Gargoyles (as part of a little trade of interests-her offering was showing me a documentary on the legacy and fandom of the Rock-a-Fire Explosion series of animatronics, which was fairly interesting and quite enjoyable in its own right). As we've mostly communicated online for our 9 or so year friendship, doing something like this isn't a common thing. Especially considering we've only been in person together for two visits, each lasting about a week.
I'm happy to report that after a viewing of The Mirror, Double Jeopardy, and Eye of the Beholder, she became quite fond of the series and has expressed interesting in indulging further. I was beyond happy that she did, as being able to share Gargoyles with her joins the rest of that week as one of many memories I feel lucky to have.
Thought you'd like to know.
That's great. Thanks.
Not a question, more something you might like: http://nebezial.deviantart.com/art/gargoyles-goliath-3d-fun-200441030?q=sort%3Atime%20gallery%3Anebezial&qo=1
It's great that folks are still doing fanart of the characters.
Not a question this time, just a comment I want to apologize I didn't think they'd send you both vesions of my initial questions cause I thought the first one was too leading and the second one was more civil.
I am still watching the series and not making too many judgements yet, my point wasn't to come off like I was attacking I was just wondering why you didn't do some things, you've got a good track record so I'm hoping things turn out.
I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking.
Don't sweat it. I apologize if my response(s) got snippy.
also i know since i did not write a question it wont get posted but to the person that sends this to greg please let him get this. its real important to me. thank you again
Everything comes to me, unless it breaks one of the rules. Doesn't have to be a question.
Hello greg my name is charles and im currently in the navy. in about 4 months i will be a film student and i was interested in producing one of your works. i have a strong passion for film and i eat breath and sleep it. with that being said the school said i should contact you and maybe get to know you. so this is the only way i know that what i have to say will reach you. but i am very serious about my passion and when i finish school i have ideas of what i want to produce as far as film goes. so if you can please email me. im gonna put my email so you can contact me so i can have a better way to contact you. also the school i will be attending is full sail university. my email is charles.wonsey@med.navy.mil so i hope this reaches you . thank you for your time.
Charles,
I'm afraid I have a policy not to contact folks directly. It's a fairness thing. If I did it for one, I'd have to do it for all, and that's just not practical.
Happy to answer your questions and/or communicate here at ASK GREG though.
Good luck in your last few months in the Navy and at film school.
Heya Greg! This isn't really a question. Rather a resounding "THANK YOU" for pretty much all of the work you've done over the years. Right now a few of my fandoms that are still on-going have come out with new installments that have, well, been disappointing me. I'm not going to name names because I don't want to put you in the position of having to bash a fellow professional's work and there's no guarantee you're familiar with the specific ones I'm speaking of anyway.
But to me it feels like the writer(s) have been failing, not because they're not talented, but rather because a) When they began their projects they failed to think far-forwardly to where they wanted their stories to go once the initial conflicts they set up have run their course. And B) Instead of letting plot-lines flow from characters that are complex and change over time, they fall back on comfortable clichés, simple black-and-white conflicts, and cookie-cutter romance. To put it simply, when given the opportunity they take the 'easy' dramatic choices.
Seeing this happen over and over has made me much more appreciative of the insane amount of world-building and planning that you must put into the things you undertake, and your skill as a storyteller to dig into the well of timeless archetypes and situations and do things that are new and exciting with them.
For me it's a relief to know that when Young Justice premieres as a series (I did see the pilot movie and loved it) I'll have something where I can sit down and be entertained, and trust that the people behind it are doing everything they can to ensure that it's the best it can possibly be. And even if at the end it hasn't matched my vision for what it could have been, I know it will definitely be just as good, and most likely a whole lot better. So, in conclusion: Thanks for being awesome! Please keep it up. :)
Thanks for the kind words. One strives for awesomeness... and settles for "Hey, we did our best."
I just re-read The Moorchild by Eloise McGraw. It's a book I mentioned in a much earlier question to you, one about a changeling girl who is half human and half fae, and the weirdness and difficulty she has fitting in with either because she is different from both species. (It's even set in medieval Scotland.) It prompted me to ask you how different or similar, emotionally and psychologically, the Third Race are to humans, because the depiction in this book is of quite inhuman fae who really can't relate to humans. You have consistently answered that the Third Race are quite similar to humans, emotionally and psychologically -- that the main difference is that of great power without great responsibility, of never growing old or having to work, and of being able to look however they want on a whim. You've even said that a human could imagine what it is like to be such a being by imagining what life for one of us would be like with those benefits.
Reading The Moorchild again got me to wondering about what it is like growing up as a hybrid (in a family of non-hybrids), or as a non-hybrid changeling raised by another species, in the Gargoyles universe. The personality differences don't seem nearly as pronounced between humans and Third Race as they are between humans and fae in The Moorchild, so it seems like fewer problems should arise, although physically there seems to be quite a lot of difference between mortals and the Children even when they look human. Clearly a half-mortal child like Fox can grow up without ever figuring it out, or learning magic. But did she ever feel different from the mortal children around her? Did other humans notice anything different about her? Or was there nothing really out of the ordinary, no noticeable outward signs of her magical heritage?
And what about Morgan le Fay, who according to what you have revealed is a purely Third Race changeling. Was it strange for her to grow up among humans? I assume she looked human, but did she feel human, or did she feel different from those around her? Did she seem unusual to her human parents and siblings, or did they never really notice anything out of the ordinary, personality-wise or physically? Did she just seem like a regular human being to them?
As for Nimue, well, she can't have helped but notice she was different, not having the same nearly-effortless magical abilities and shapechanging that the Third Race have. That and not being made of pure magic, along with whatever that entails.
I imagine a slightly different dynamic for the Avalon Clan, since there was no human society around them and they actually outnumbered their foster parents 11-to-1, but I'm sure that was at least somewhat weird, especially for the humans.
I guess if the question is: "Did they feel different?" then the answer is a resounding "YES!". Because, I'm pretty sure I'm not a magical hybrid and I felt different. Doesn't everyone?
I originally wrote this for my blog, and decided to paste it in here.
Young Justice
Well, what do you know? This is my one hundredth entry. Appropriate that it is about Greg Weisman's newest TV series.
Anyone who knows me knows I am a huge fan of Greg Weisman's work. "Gargoyles" is my all time favorite TV series; I adored "The Spectacular Spider-Man;" I was quite fond of the second season of "W.I.T.C.H.;" and the freelance scripts he wrote for shows like "Men In Black" and "Buzz Lightyear of Star Command" were always fun.
Okay, I really hated "Max Steel" and couldn't watch more than one episode, but that show had all sorts of behind the scenes problems that were not his fault. And sadly, "Roughnecks: Star Ship Troopers Chronicles" never aired in my area, so I've never really seen it. But, overall, Greg Weisman is responsible for high quality television. So, I was greatly anticipating his newest series, "Young Justice."
"Young Justice" is loosely based on a DC Comics title by the same name, but draws from many other sources. It focuses on a group of sidekicks (but don't call them that) who band together to become a covert ops team connected to the Justice League. The stars of the show are Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Superboy, Miss Martian, and Artemis. Although, we have yet to meet Artemis and only briefly met Miss Martian.
The theme of the first season is "secrets and lies" and this is very apparent within the pilot already. The Justice League is keeping secrets from the members of Young Justice... which was enough to piss off Speedy, and get him to storm off. And Project Cadmus was keeping secrets from the rest of the world.
I love a good mystery, and we've got one set up with a shadowy organization called The Light, who were behind Project Cadmus. Although, I am somewhat reminded of the Illuminati from "Gargoyles" (Hmm... Light - illuminated - Illuminati) and the Council of Thirteen of the Guild of Calamitous Intent in "The Venture Bros." although, I highly doubt Davie Bowie is L-1.
The writing and dialogue are very sharp, and considering the pilot was penned by Mr. Weisman himself, that was to be expected. The animation is very strong, and I kept wondering what their budget was, because it looks great. The voice acting was also phenomenal, which is to be expected from any series voice directed by Jamie Thomason.
This series has just about everything going for it, and already, in my mind, blew the competition out of the water. Yes, I enjoy "The Avengers - Earth's Mightiest Heroes" quite a bit, but the quality of that show just doesn't compare to the quality of "Young Justice." The funny thing about that is that outside of Batman, and some Vertigo comics, I have no attachment to DC Comics at all. I've always been a Marvel reader. But Marvel has never had animated series as good as DC's, with the exception of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" which was just as great as "Batman the Animated Series." But then, look at who the mastermind behind Spidey was.
I give the pilot of "Young Justice" a solid five stars. It also left me intrigued enough to come back for more when the series really gets going in January.
Glad you liked it!
Another comment, rather than a question. I've mentioned before about how well Goliath's statement in "M.I.A.", "Human problems become gargoyle problems" had been borne out so often in the series (especially when we saw how the struggles over the Scottish throne between 971 to 1057 - definitely a human problem - affected the gargoyles in Scotland, not to mention the Quarrymen being ultimately about a human unwilling to face his responsibility for seriously injuring his brother). Recently it occurred to me that the Humility Spell, though not actually a *problem* for the gargoyles (except maybe the occasion when it prevented Brooklyn from recovering Goliath's half of the Phoenix Gate in 997), is also an example of this at work.
We know from your statements (canon-in-training, of course) that the Humility Spell stemmed from Caesar Augustus' wish to improve the morals of the early Roman Empire, which extended to his disapproval of gargoyles awakening in the nude because their clothes were torn apart with their stone skin shells at nightfall. Thus, it's the result of another human problem which came to affect gargoyles worldwide (even gargoyle clans that presumably never even suspected that the Roman Empire existed).
That's one way to look at it, certainly.
Hello Greg
I just want to say thank you for creating such a wonderful world. Filled with complex, multi layered characters. I am nearly twenty three now, but I can still remember watching the premier of episode one just two days after my seventh birthday. The show definitely affected my childhood both conscioussly and subconsciously. Anyway I digress. I recently learned about the annual Gargoyles Gathering. I was disappointed to find out that it has been cancelled. So my question is why it was cancelled, and if there is any chance that it will start up again in the future?
-Trevor Doyle
Check the archives.
Nothing stops fans from starting up a new or another Gargoyles convention. But I'd read the archives carefully before I tried. Keep in mind, I'm always happy to attend. But I don't want to see fans go into debt just so that I can have a fun weekend.
Dear Greg,
Recently watched "Long Way Til Morning"
And this is hopefully the first question that leads to what I hope to complete soon as a long essay on how fascinating Demona is as a character as well as her impact on her estranged clan "family".
In this we see three characters. All with relatively strong familial bonds. First we have the Father, Hudson. Then of course the rookery children Goliath and Demona.
My actual question is this:
What had to be going through Hudson's mind during all of this? I know he acknowledged the two as a mated pair, but in essence he had to save his son from his daughter. That could not have made him all too plussed.
Secondly, the dialogue in this last scene really shows how even now, they still have latent feelings of being family...
Hudson: "Give it up girl, you can't win.." Which even as a boy, first watching this I always received as a Father being parental in some way to his daughter.
Then there is Demona, who is as bananas as it gets. She, even in her tirade tips her hand. She, through raw, volatile emotion expresses she still has love for Hudson.
"I would have ended this quickly! Your pride will cost you your life!" Even though I know at this point in her life she is past redemption, I still feel that the way she exclaims these sentiments is a tell she doesn't want to HAVE to say them. She loves her rookery father. And in a way, still NEEDS him. As all grown children do once we reach adulthood. But nothing can stand in the way of her vengeance. The vengeance for her murdered family. Not even surviving FAMILY.
All too fascinating Greg, and thank you!
Justin
You're welcome...
1. Who is Demona's great love?
2. When was Gwen gonna die?
3. Will you spoil your entire series plan for "Young Justice story beat by story beat?
5. Why does the Monarch hate Rusty Venture so much?
LOL, I'm just kidding. Instead here's a comment.
I recently put the entire timeline from the GargWiki into my word processor, and it came out to about fifty-four pages. Obviously, about 98% of that timeline is directly quoted from ASK GREG's "This Day in Gargoyles Universe History" and since you last said that your timeline hit three hundred page mark, well, I am in awe.
In awe mostly because, I knew you were holding out on us... but damn. Sixty-five episodes and eighteen comics, and we still have not scratched the surface of what you have in your head for this world.
I am impressed, sir. Impressed. And, I hope you consider bringing "This Day in Gargoyles Universe History" back sometime soon.
I'm a little to swamped to do that right now. And besides, I don't think that much has changed.
My timeline is currently 330 pages long. But it also has a lot of math.
A comment this time, rather than a question. One of my favorite details in the "Stone of Destiny" story was Macbeth's presence at the Battle of Bannockburn. It recently occurred to me that this might be an example, if a subtle one, of the time-honored motif of a legendary hero from long ago who returns to his country to aid it in a time of need.
The concept has attached itself to King Arthur, of course, and his return has featured in "Gargoyles" (if with a premature re-awakening). The returns of the Golem and Cu Chullain, elsewhere in the Avalon World Tour, also evoke it. For that matter, I remember your once saying that the Avalon gargoyles looked upon Goliath (from what they had learned of him through their human guardians) as a great sleeping hero who would one day awaken and return if ever they needed him - and he did indeed return in their hour of need, when the Archmage attacked Avalon.
I also recall, outside of "Gargoyles", the legend that Theseus returned to aid his fellow Athenians against the Persians at the Battle of Marathon (and Mary Renault including it in her Theseus novels) - which forms a great parallel here to Macbeth's presence at Bannockburn, both cases of a desperate struggle against an invading army.
At the same time, your use of the "return of the king" motif for Macbeth's participation at Bannockburn (assuming you had it in mind at the time) came with a twist. Macbeth returns incognito; so far as we know, none of the other Scotsmen taking part in the battle know that he's fighting alongside them. Robert the Bruce is the Scottish king who will be associated with the victory (deservedly, of course, from what I've read about the battle). No chronicle or legend even hints at his presence there. As far as we know, only he knows that he was there (we don't know if Shari knows or not; the panel depicting him at the battle is in one of her stories, but she does not mention him in the text itself). The king returned to aid his country in need, but in secret, his presence unremarked on.
Very cogent analysis.
Mr. Weisman, I read your response on my question about the novel I wrote. I can't say I was thrilled with the response_ but I think that maybe it was because you didn't understand my motivation behined it. I posted a comment on your blog about the "Gargoyles" movie Disney wants to release. I was hoping you would read it and then perhaps we could discuss my motivation and reasons in more detail.
A few things...
1. I apologize, but I get so many questions here, I can't remember either what you wrote here about your novel or how I responded. So I can't tell you whether or not I understood your motivation.
2. I don't have a blog. Just ASK GREG here. So I don't know where you posted your "comment" about the Gargoyles movie or how that would effect my mindset about your novel.
3. You're welcome to post your motivation here, but if your novel is in any way based on Gargoyles (and if it's not why are we having this discussion?), I can't see WHAT motivation would make me excited about it.
4. I'm sorry if all this isn't "thrilling" but I really don't understand what you expect from me. Why would I be happy about someone else doing a Gargoyles-based property, either as a movie or a novel?
But perhaps I'm completely off-base (see response #1 above) so I'll stop now.
Man, every Spidey question you answer that ends with some form of "it's moot now" or "we'll never see it" is depressing. I miss the show so much, miss anticipating what great new direction you guys were going to take it in, miss the awesome surprise of each new design by Cheeks, the great voice acting and sharp writing, the structure of the seasons and the way you were organically growing Spidey's world, etc. I'm really excited for Young Justice and think it looks great, but at heart, I'm mostly a Marvel, and specifically Spider-Man, fan. So basically, just thanks for the show. I loved it, it's a credit to your great talent in the field, and it was unquestionably the best animated Marvel adaptation ever made, series, movie, or otherwise.
Thank you.
Bad Guys #5 & 6: I wanted to post my Bad Guys reactions all at once, but I wrote my #4 reaction long before this one. So here's the rest, in no particular order.
I just noticed that nobody is willing to sit next to Fang. I wouldn't either!
I continue to wonder about the (constrained) choices made by the members of the squad -- there's lots of tension in Losers about this. They don't know any more about their boss than they do about the Illuminati. Less, in fact, and it's the revelation that Oldcastle and Thailog work for the Illuminati that persuades the Squad not to join. But they still know so little about their own boss... for all they (and I) know, he's could be just as bad. If Robyn knows more she isn't telling, and the rest know basically nothing. They've been given very little choice, of course. They know the Illuminati are untrustworthy... but they can only hope that their mysterious boss is any better. Dingo finally asks, but somehow I doubt Interpol is the truth!
Of course I know the Illuminati are bad news. But I don't know any more about the Director than the Squad do. From what I've seen, they take an "ends justify the means" attitude just like the Illuminati does.
I was seriously worried that Matrix would join the Illuminati and spell Bad Things for basically the whole planet. The Redemption Squad is composed of criminals on the run from the law, and if anyone pointed out to Matrix that the Australian shaman's logic in Issue #1 wasn't actually logical (Dingo can't fight for law and order if he's breaking the law!) then the Illuminati might have looked more attractive to Matrix than its current situation. Fortunately the Matrix isn't bright enough to figure that out. At this point, Matrix is largely at the mercy of whoever controls its access to information about how laws actually work!
Humorous moments: Yama falling asleep mid-sentence, Matrix eating a fork, Yama freaking out over his broken sword, and Doll calling Matrix "that thing."
Yama being impaled on a sword and continuing to fight with no noticeable weakness is hard to believe, especially since Goliath was so much worse off after a much less serious wound in Long Way Till Morning, and completely incapacitated in Bash by a knife wound that definitely did not impale him. It shows how tough a warrior Yama is, but... makes him look literally immortal, Highlander style. This is one place where gargoyle healing abilities are not believable to me without magic.
And Dingo's childhood was finally revealed ... the creep who raised him is the same guy who murdered his mother! That's creepy, ick. The look on John's face is suspicious from the start, but I did not expect that. No wonder Dingo became a criminal.
Yama continues to be impressive. And the scene with Matrix holding up the light under the huge Illuminati banner just looks cool.
I have to wonder why the Illuminati is hoarding priceless art objects, and not even using them for anything. I'm impressed but surprised that Dingo cares enough to prevent their destruction.
Overall, Bad Guys is a good comic, but it leans heavily towards the superhero genre (Oldcastle's gang even seems to include super powers) and as with the Pack, that doesn't appeal to me nearly as much as the other elements of Gargoyles. (Fortunately, nobody except Tasmanian Tiger has a goofy supervillain costume). Not that I wouldn't buy more Bad Guys, if more were published and I could afford it.
Thanks for the stories.
I'd argue that BOTH of Goliath's wounds that you mentioned were WAY MORE serious. Yama intentionally guided that blade to go through organ-free tissue -- a through and through cut that did minimal damage to his side -- which wasn't the case with either of Goliath's injuries: he had internal damage/internal organ injuries both times.
Just look at the visuals again, and it should be clearer. There's nothing magical or Highlander about what Yama does. He's just a tough s.o.b.
Bad Guys #4: Finally I am going to write my reactions to this, many months after I finally got a hold of my copy. It's difficult to come up with my reactions since I first read it a while ago.
I think the "cliched villainy" of Sevarius and Fang would be more horrific if I wasn't already used to mutates, and if was more plausible as a real-life event. Now Sevarius has extended his atrocities to children. It's hard to imagine what kind of life these people can possibly have... and on top of everything else, I guess that Sevarius probably had to wreck their immune systems just to mutate them at all.
Art nitpick: the new mutates look very good and are well drawn, but there's no way that Tasha's shirt and pants can go _under_ her shell, which is part of her skin.
Robyn is trying too hard to sound angry and tough, and she can't pull it off. A little hard to, when it's too late and she's in a cage. Her reaction to Sevarius wanting to mutate her implies that she's more horrified by gargoyle DNA, than by the mutation itself. That, along with other behaviors and statements throughout the six issues, make me think that she is still deeply prejudiced against gargoyles, and is playing nice partly to obey the Director's orders. She doesn't want to kill them all anymore, and her (private?) conversation with Jon shows how far she's already changed her attitudes, but she doesn't seem to regard gargoyles as equals. A lifetime of hatred and ignorance cannot be unlearned quickly or easily.
The big shock in issue 4 is the suicide of Tasha. I did not expect that such an event would be depicted in the comic books. Sadly, it's very believable. Sevarius utterly ruined her life, in what was surely an extremely traumatic experience. For one moment, Fang almost looks like this suicide upset him, but the he starts making repugnant jokes. If some of his _other_ jokes weren't still funny, I think this is one character I would completely hate. I certainly don't blame everyone else for hating him.
The ending, where Robyn's mysterious superior (presumably the Director who got her out of jail and created the squad) put Fang on the team, is confusing. I assume there must be some passage of time that I missed, but it appears as though Fang instantaneously acquires a tailored uniform.
An finally, now I can re-read the bits and pieces at the beginnings of the first 4 issues and make sense of them.
Dingo is angry that they "barely survived the last time" and I wonder what he's even referring to -- to the battle against Fang? Was that really a suicide mission? The reason Dingo barely survived is because Matrix decided to drop him in mid-air off a skyscraper. On the other hand, I have to wonder why they swallow these "missions" when they have no clue who is ordering them around, and no reason to know if they're being told the truth. OK, they've all been threatened with Bad Things, but they don't even ask who they're working for. (Maybe they already asked and Robyn just isn't telling). I also wonder how anyone, including the Director, thinks that Fang is remotely trustworthy, and isn't going to betray the others.
The entire helicopter gets blown up by missiles, but of course the characters aren't going to die just like that. Matrix saves them. The Illuminati possesses combat robots, like the Cybots and Steel Clan. Robyn's combat skills and acrobatics are amazing, when I think about it.
Yama looks great in these issues. I'm liking him. I also like Fang yelling at Yama.
Glad generally you seemed to like the stuff!
Not a question so much as a comment. You've said several times you think you missed a bet in "Grief-" namely, that Coyote should have killed the travelers, to show that death was impossible with Anubis locked up. I may be in the minority on this, but I prefer the story we got to this alternate version.
First of all, it would reopen the Highlander-esque questions that you get regarding Demona and Macbeth. So, Angela's shot through the heart but doesn't die- when Anubis is freed, is the wound still there? If so, would the wound then kill her? If Goliath were decapitated, would the head still talk, or would it sprout spider legs and walk back to him (sorry, I just watched The Thing the other night- incidentally, Keith making a surprise appearance in a movie is something that always makes me smile)? I imagine that, if only for S&P reasons, the death would simply be through bloodless laser beams (sorry, "particle beams") and the issue wouldn't have come up, but it's still confusing.
The bigger point, though, is that it cheapens the characters' abilities. I've read most of the Lee/Ditko and Lee/Romita Spider-Man comics, and while they're great stories, one thing that always bothered me was how supervillains always let Spidey live. Typically, a new villain would dominate the wallcrawler and then arrogantly announce "I don't need to kill Spider-Man- I can beat him any time I want!" I don't have a count, but I really think this happened dozens of times in the Silver Age. I could understand if the villain had a reason to run, like Doc Ock's power running low in your show, but most of the time they just seemed stupid, since of course Spidey trounced them next time. The point is that it seemed like he was surviving more through luck than any particular skill. Likewise, our gargoyles have survived countless battles because of their own abilities. To say that they finally lose- but it doesn't count because, for this one day, they can't die, seems to cheapen their earlier successes. It feels like the only reason they're winning is because the writers want them to win, and if they get in big trouble, a deus ex machina twist will save them. The show starts to feel artificial, and I wonder if these characters are really that special, or if they're just the designated heroes.
Now, of course, this is hypothetical. It's possible that, if I'd seen the episode the way you envision, I would have loved it. As it is, it's kind of hard for me to imagine it working. Just something to chew on.
I guess I wouldn't agree about one lucky break cheapening earlier victories... I guess I wouldn't agree with that at all.
I'm also not big on deus ex machina saves myself, but when an ENTIRE episode is ABOUT arresting death, having them live because death has been arrested doesn't feel like deus ex machina at all to me, even with a deus (Anubis) present.
And, as you noted, the beheading (et al) issue just wouldn't have come up.
I know you're arguing for the success of what we made, and I'm in the odd (very odd) position of arguing that we could have done better, but I still think a bet was missed...
Hi Greg,
I'm a big fan. I work in South Korea teaching English and I thought you would be interested in your creations' progress over here.
I did some research on the internet and Gargoyles: The Movie and some season 1 episodes were released on VHS over here. What a collector's item those would be? The official translated name of the show is "Champion Goliath", but happily enough online Korean fans just call it "Gargoyles."
Channel surfing, I did see The Spectacular Spider-Man on the cartoon channel, 5:30, Saturday morning. That's actually a good time, since Korean children have Saturday school and 5:30am would be just the right time they're waking up.
Keep up the good work and hopefully I'll see Young Justice in Korea.
Very cool! Thanks, Richard.
Some time ago, I mentioned a book by Eleanor Prosser called "Hamlet and Revenge", which argued that Hamlet's goal to avenge his father on Claudius was not a righteous duty, but a misguided and dangerous quest. Recently, I thought about a passage in it in connection to "Clan-Building: Volume Two".
In one of the early chapters, the author discusses Kyd's "The Spanish Tragedy", one of the leading revenge-plays before "Hamlet". The protagonist, Hieronimo, is out to avenge the murder of his son Horatio. After discovering his son's body near the start of the play, he decides not to bury it until he can achieve his revenge, an act which, Prosser comments, would have unsettled the audience.
This reminded me of the scene in "Clan-Building" where, after Demona reports the slaughter of the Sruighlea cell by Constantine and Gillecomgain, True suggests that they hold a Wind Ceremony for the dead gargoyles, and Demona rejects it in favor of pursuing revenge on the humans who did the deed. I just thought I'd share it with you.
Thanks. I like the parallel a lot. And I agree with what it reveals about character... though I've never read "The Spanish Tragedy" unfortunately. At least not yet.
Hi Greg.
A fan from England here.
Not so much a question but I just wanted to let you know that thanks to my lovely University Iâve managed to book a lecture theatre once a week to show Gargoyles on a big screen to my friends, and watch it again myself on said glorious big screen. We should be finished at the end of summer.
Currently theyâre enjoying it, some more than others, and it feels great to expose people to a real classic of western animation. Weâve even got a running joke about how Xanatos is behind everything. Theyâre not liking the rather varied Scottish accents, or takes on them at least, but I understand thereâs only so much an American production can do to get proper accents right.
Weâre just starting the Avalon World Tour and Iâm curious to see what they make of the revelations in the Gathering. Specifically Puckâs role but also Foxâs heritage and Xanatosâ shift into not quite being such a bad guy.
Just thought to tell you that the Gargoyles love is being spread to people across the pond that never saw it the first time âround.
Wow, W.C., that's really cool! Thanks!
Sorry, about those accents. We do have a range of actors playing Scots. (Americans. Englishmen. And even the occasional Scot, like Sheena Easton, who's lived in America so long, she admits to having trouble summoning it up.) And since, Jamie and I aren't British, it can be tough for us to know whether we're getting it right. So generally we settle for being in the ballpark.)
gdw
Dear Greg,
This is more of a commendation than a question. I just want to say thank you for your patience and honesty with the fans. I notice that if something gets mentioned that could remotely relate to Gargoyles (ex: the whole Marvel/Disney thing), twenty people will ask the same question that day without seeing if someone else has already asked it. But do you shut those people out? No, you answer the same question twenty times, and I'm impressed by that. I can guess at some authors who would stop answering questions after giving the same answer 20 times, but you continue to allow fans this amazing connection to you and your work. And I really like that.
Thank you.
I think you're giving me more credit for patience than I deserve, but I do try. Thank you.
Not a question just a quick apology. When I asked my question about the Marvel/Disney thing there wasn't much if anything about it in the archives as I could find anyhow. Since then I've read the responses and understand you being to the point of "nauseum" as you put it. I'm probably almost as tired of seeing people ask that same question as you are so I do apologize for the monotony. Its such a lingering hope for all of us die hard fans that something wonderful will happen to allow Gargoyles to continue. I want my children to enjoy it the way i have, I want there to be new wonderful stories. There are few people I talk to that aren't aware of the show and fewer still that have a negative thing to say about it. Just the other day I had a lovely young lady nearly swoon when I told her that there was a Gargoyles comic book series, almost got myself a date actually (small matter of me already being engaged, lol).
Sorry for being another bother but we're all just clinging to hope and rooting for you :)
Cheers!
Lance
Thanks, Lance.
Hi Greg, this is not a question but a statement: I have been a gargoyles fan for many years and I think your work is one of the greatest animated legend in history.
We the fans will not stop until the remaining 26 episodes are released on DVD. Your ability to capture the attention of adults as well as kids are outstanding. By the way, I do have Season One and Two. Thanks
Thank you...........
No, thank YOU!
Dear Greg, I join the army three years ago. I recently returned From a fifteen month tour in Afghanistan.I didn't have much to do (besides working in the motor pool all the time)I've watched gargoyles for the last two months of my tour. When the show stopped at 3-13-3(you tube)I was a little disappointed. I couldn't understand why Disney would do such a thing. I was going through some hard times, watching the show really help get through my endeavors. I know this isn't a question, more like a thank you note.so I say, Thank you. Sincerely a BIG fan David.
And thank you, David!
hi love your work. i just want to ask if you read any fanfics of yore work.
I've already answered this question. Please check the archives.
All too often in cartoons (specifically nowadays) female characters fall into the role of giggling love interest, counterpart to a male character to eliminate homosexual themes or are just there to fill a demographic. Writers don't seem to know what to do with them after that.
That is why I would like to sincerely thank you for your part in fostering strong female characters like Elisa, Demona and Fox.
Also, what influenced you to write those characters the way you did? Did you have specific females from your past in mind or did you choose character traits from literature and sort of mesh them for a well rounded feel?
Thank you.
I honestly don't know. I've always liked writing female characters. Two of my first (unfortunately unpublished) projects for DC Comics were Black Canary and Supergirl.
I just try to write honestly for them -- removing as many of my biases as possible -- just as I would for any male character. And the result -- for better or for worse -- is what you have seen...
Tana writes...
You Asked:
"Does anyone know if "Maza" means "iron" in any Native American language or dialect?"
According to my book of names (it's got like 20,000 names and their meanings, which is totally cool, especially the Athurian names) Maza blaska, which is a Dakota name means "flat iron." So if it's one of those languages where the adjective comes after the subject, then Maza does infact mean Iron in Dakota. Which interestingly enough adds more irony since Dakota was an early choice for Demona's name. ^_^
And you know that J.R.R. Tolkien claimed that all of his novels were fact...you seen to have the same symptom with the Gargoyles.
Greg responds...
I'm not claiming they're fact so much as acknowledging that sometimes storytelling on this show just seems to click with history, existing legend and with dramatic necessity. It's a rare feeling, and I'm humbled by it. All I'm saying is it sometimes feels like the stories are true somehow somewhere, and all I'm doing is (imperfectly) tapping into them.
But I'm not actually delusional.
Ok, this is TZ now......
I was looking over the archives and was simply amazed by this response of yours, Greg. I have always felt that art (in all forms, from literature to sculptures to music) is discovered, not created. I subscribe to that theory because there are such famous examples of great work that endure for years, sometimes even centuries. Why would something like Michelangelo's David or Beethoven's 9th remain so popular through the ages? I think it's because those pieces already existed and were "discovered" by those artists, because certain works like theirs touch us so deeply. When one of us "finds" that piece of art, and shares it, it seems to strike something in all of us. I think creativity is God's alone, but I think He gives some of us a gift to find or tap into (as you've put it) something He's already created that reveals a great truth or lesson or feeling. Anyway, just a ramble of mine to share based on something I was amazed to see here. I'm not sure if I got my point across to others (I found it really hard to put this into words) but I think you get it. Thanks for "discovering" more great art for us all!
You're welcome. Glad you get what I'm getting at, more or less.
Greg,
Just wanted to comment on the brilliance of the show, and you and your team being able to successfully weave different mythologies together to create a whole new mythology. It's works like that that inspire so many others to continue in the arts, whether it be writing, designing, or performing arts alike- myself included. So thank you for that and for continuing to share this amazing experience with us over a decade later. Whether or not we ever see the rest of the show released on DVD (or the next big media software), it is my belief that Gargoyles will continue to inspire all who have the privilege of watching.
Thanks. And I really liked your Oresteia too.
One of the big changes you made from canon-in-training to canon, in "Clan-Building", was having the Phoenix rather than the Phoenix Gate be the cause of Brooklyn's timedancing. I thought about it recently, and think that it was a good change.
Aside from it providing a good explanation for why it took so long for Brooklyn to get back (it would probably have seem far-fetched if each time the Phoenix Gate appeared during those forty years, he always failed to grab it before it disappeared again), I think it added something to his journey. While we don't know exactly what the Phoenix is as yet, or what its agenda is, the way it was depicted (and Brooklyn's own comments) made it clear that it deliberately took Brooklyn to Scotland in 997, that this was not just some accidental fluke, that the Phoenix has a purpose and intentions like those of any sentient being. Brooklyn isn't being battened about the time-stream by an out of control magical talisman, but is being sent places to fulfill a mission, like Goliath and his companions on the Avalon World Tour. His adventures up and down history, past and future, are the product of a plan, not just the whims of chance. I think it made for a much better story.
Thanks.
My Review For Bad Guys #6, "Losers"...
- Alright! I'm glad we are ending this mini-series with a pretty strong cover. And I'm really pleased that this cover is what made the cover for the trade. I had kinda figured we'd be getting a group shot for this final cover and it looks great. Matrix is very cool here and Hunter and Dingo look awesome here. My only complaints is that Fang looks a bit too cat-like and Yama looks like Goliath. But I can get over it.
- So, here we go. We don't pick up where we left off at Eastcheap Island, but back in Paris where the Mr. Director is chatting with Dolores and later Monsieur Le Maire. A bunch of characters we don't know anything about really, aside from the fact that they are part of the organization that formed the Redemption Squad. Hunter at one point claims this group is Interpol, but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to believe her or not. I hope (and suspect) these three unknown characters will be expanded down the road, particularly the Director. On a related note, I was expecting to see the story of Hunter's recruitment in this chapter, but it was not to be. A story for another day, I suppose. This issue has a lot to work with already.
- Back at Eastcheap, everybody chills out (except Hunter) and sits down to a nice meal. Falstaff couldn't be more right when he called this lot a motley crew. Something that has always appealed to me about the Redemption Squad is that they seem like they'd be perfect for and a lot of fun fighting another group. I've been looking forward to a Redemption Squad versus The Ultra-Pack battle for years, but Falstaff's Band of Thieves seems like they'd make a great group antagonist also, and I'm sure we'll see more of them in the Bad Guys series.
- We continue on with a lively discussion at the dinner table. Falstaff, Dingo and Hunter all have this great dynamic with each other. It is like none of them really like each other, but are trying to get along. Dingo in particular plays the middle-man so well here. Mediating between these two groups. And it is funny because he doesn't have much reason to trust either Falstaff or Hunter. He doesn't know or understand what Falstaff is doing here, but Hunter won't even tell him who he is supposed to be working for. And on top of that, he has this past relationship with Falstaff and this blooming future relationship with Hunter, so he really is stuck in the middle here, and it seems to me now that Dingo has always been the middle-man. Balanced. Not good or bad. Anyway, a fun scene. We also get a cool bit where Fang is chowing down... and Matrix is eating a fork! Funny.
- And speaking of Matrix. I find him to be very interesting is this chapter. What strikes me most is his non-direct interplay with Falstaff. Falstaff really seems to be bothered by Matrix a lot. Looking at him funny, thinking over the things Matrix says. I can't put my finger on it, but I suspect something is going on in Falstaff's mind concerning Matrix. And Matrix continues to be an incredibly resourceful and useful teammate. In that aspect, he is sorta the R2-D2 of the group. Maybe not the main hero, but consistently saving and supporting the hero. That kind of character has always appealed to me and Matrix is no exception. I do remember hearing Greg talking about Matrix doing something truly incredible down the road and becoming a foe the Redemption Squad must face. I hope we get to see that story eventually because Matrix really is fascinating.
- Meanwhile, Falstaff tries to convince the Squad that they really are the good guys. And he does this in such an interesting way. Falstaff himself talks to Dingo. Tries to show him that he has reformed and is some sort of guardian these days. And Falstaff sets up some communications with a couple other Illuminati members: Fiona Canmore and Thailog. This is just brilliant, great stuff. There are so many conflicting things going on around here. You have a team of villains who don't know who they are working for that are trying to be good guys confronting a team of possibly bad guys who are trying to prove they are good guys working for a possibly good organization and as proof they get a couple not-so-protagonists to vouch for them. And one of them is a gargoyle and the other a gargoyle hunter. Wow.
I'm not sure if it was just luck that Matrix went along with Hunter to talk to Fiona instead of, say, Yama. Would've been an interesting conversation with Aunt Fiona with a gargoyle standing next to Hunter. Nice to see Fiona in the canon finally. And not far away we get Yama make something of a joke for us ("Someone fix the color!" Very funny.) and he and Fang chat with Thailog. These conversations don't seem to go as planned for Falstaff though. Hunter has left the family business, but Fiona indicates that there is more to things than that. We don't see what happens next, but it seems to me that Hunter has a hard time going along with whatever else Fiona has to say. And Fang vouching for Thailog means little since no one trusts Fang. So, in the end it seems only Dingo is willing to give the Illuminati the benefit of the doubt. Maybe.
- So, the Squad takes a few minutes to confer. As a side note, anyone else notice the tapestry in the room they are left in? Looks like a gargoyle fighting a human to me. Hunter gives it a passing glance anyway. Safe inside the Matrix Isolation Sphere, we see some sharing of notes. Of course, all of this is intercut with the following scene. Like the last issue, these flashes back and forth in time really keep the suspense up. Sometimes it even comes across as if the scenes were talking to each other, if you get my meaning. Dialogue in one scene inter-plays with dialogue in another. And we are not always sure what each group, even each character, is up to until the end. Really great stuff. Kudos to Greg for that. And Fang starts off a pretty climactic battle. Matrix takes out Mistress Quickly pretty easily, which makes his point. He wraps her up in some sort of shell. Greg indicated at the Gathering that she was, in fact, still alive, but in some sort of hibernation. That can't be fun for her, yikes. Of course, her teammate Points is dealing out some damage of his own, stabbing Yama in the gut. I like how Yama admits that Points is a superior swordsman, but endures the injury to take advantage of his own superior traits, namely his strength and knowledge that he will heal. Still, must've hurt, yowch. Dingo pulls out his old bolas. I don't think we've seen Dingo use the bolas since "Thrill of the Hunt". Falstaff pulls a Goliath by snapping his way out of them though. Guess he still has some muscle under the medieval getup and pounds of fat. And Hunter kicks the face of the amazing, fire-breathing Bardolph. I guess his face was already messed up, but still...
But the Squad is outnumbered and out-gunned... seemingly. Falstaff and Dingo play a game of bluffing and Falstaff bails. He reveals that Eastcheap isn't an island, but a submersible vessel of huge size. Didn't expect that! The Band of Thieves leaves the Squad to its fate in the soon to be flooded chamber. I can't help think that despite his words, Falstaff knew they'd escape and survive like we all did. Matrix saves the day again and we get our last scene with our heros(?)
Hunter is frustrated that they did not manage to capture the island or the treasure or Falstaff. No one points out that they did escape with a prisoner however. Anyway, Fang is content just to survive and Yama... actually agrees with Fang sort of. Yama tells the team that the road to their redemption is a journey and that gaining a captive or an island or whatever isn't as important as walking the road. These results are not the destination, more like perks along the road. There is a beautiful but brief moment of comraderie here with everyone, but most notably between Fang and Yama. Yama actually puts his hand on Fang's shoulder (must be the blood loss) and Fang listens so intently to Yama's words. Of course, the sun rises and we don't get to hear the obvious answer of when we've reached redemption. Fang goes back to being Fang and gives us one last curse word for the books. His use of the word "crap" really serves to re-emphasize to me, the reader, about how dark this comic was able to get at times, yet how fun and comedic it was too. A cool moment. Hunter and Dingo's last little look at each other is nice too. Honestly, the last three pages are just wonderful. Very poignant and satisfying. A great ending to this mini-series. I really hope to see more of the Bad Guys spin-off down the Redemption Road.
P.S. Can't help notice that the Humility Spell didn't turn Yama's clothes to stone... guess the Squad is in for an eyeful at sunset. : )
Glad you enjoyed the issue and the volume...
Hi Greg. A quick response on your "accessibility" ramble. I actually really appreciated the way you approached it in the comics. It was handled in a very classy way that wasn't redundant or insulting for existing fans. In fact, the spread in Issue #1 was elegant, fit the story well, and was a fun extension of the opening credits monologueâ"which, of course, was intended to bring new fans up to speed in the first place, and ended up becoming a touchstone for the loyal existing fans. I feel like the same was accomplished here (the spread, Al's story, etc.), and as someone mildly irritated whenever a story feels it has to "talk down" to me, I appreciate it.
Well, I tried.
My Review For Bad Guys #5, "Strangled"...
- The first thing I did upon checking in at the Gathering this year was seek out my copy of Bad Guys, Volume 1 and read it. Couldn't go through the Gathering out of the loop, could I? Anyway, the point is that I first read this chapter several weeks ago, and many times since then. I'll try to focus on my initial thoughts, however.
- As usual, I'll start with the cover. After a very cool "Louse" cover, it seems we are back to the somewhat dull 'Wanted' poster covers. It isn't that I don't think these covers are a fun way of highlighting the character of focus in the chapter, 'cause it works well for that purpose, but in terms of drawing new readers in, in terms of color and action, they just don't grab me. This cover is also the only one we don't get to see in color at all, which is a shame, but since it doesn't strike me as being particularly colorful anyway, I suppose we are not missing too much by only seeing it in b&w.
- Moving on to the content, we start off back at our island battle. A cool thing here is that these island battle scenes have moved from being flashbacks and become the current story (intercut with new flashback scenes). So, a robot has its grip on Hunter and Dingo really gets to be the hero here. He flies in at high speed, rescues the damsel in distress and vanquishes the monster. Fun stuff and a cool sequence, and the strongest indication yet of the relationship between Dingo and Hunter. Too bad Hunter has no interest in being a damsel. She is so fun as she lets her guard down for a second and then snaps back into tough-girl mode. I get the sense that Dingo both loves and hates that about her.
Meanwhile, Yama saves Fang without a word (quite the contrast between these two and Hunter and Dingo). Yama dives down to the island and immediately draws his swords to take on a couple smaller 'bots. This is a fun little battle also. It is neat to see that when Yama is disarmed, he still has his natural weapons, his strength and claws. A gargoyle without weapons is still a gargoyle.
So, Hunter comes crashing in and the others land nearby, bringing our team back together. There is a brief moment where Dingo helps Hunter to her feet and she brushes him off followed a few moments later by him guarding her from the supposed trap behind the island doors, which she again ignores. These two really get a lot of subtle, but fun, play in this chapter. Of course, the Hunter-Dingo relationship serves as a great reference to Harry's relationship with his mother.
- And speaking of Harry's mother, lets not forget these very interesting flashbacks. We get to learn a lot about Dingo's past. We see that he was a good kid that came from a rough part of town and was raised by a seemingly 'good guy'. A simple thief who raised poor Harry to live a life of crime. It really makes me want to go back and watch some of those Pack episodes again. Dingo was always the good guy doing the bad guy thing. Which is, of course, a fun contrast to John Oldcastle, the bad guy doing the good guy thing. I recall at the 2008 Gathering in Chicago, Karine had a panel in which she talked about various issues she had drawing this chapter (which she had been doing at the time). One thing she mentioned in particular was that one panel was simply hard to draw due to the content. I remember thinking to myself that after drawing a suicide, what could be worse. I suppose the answer should've been obvious given the title of the chapter, but the last page of the comic was a surprise to me. Pretty sick, this John. I have to wonder why he killed Mariah though. What happened? And he seems to so calmly adopt and raise Harry afterwards. Anyway, a true villain. Which is ironic since Dingo seems to think somewhat highly of the man, though I get ahead of myself.
- Anyway, so the Squad moves into the island itself. Matrix gets a brief moment to shine here (haha), and the team comes across the most hilarious piece of art a secret society would ever possess, a giant tapestry with their insignia on it. "Guess we came to the right secret lair." Uh, yeah. And after this long battle with the drab, mindless robots outside we get this quick battle with this colorful bunch of characters inside. These new people are fun. They've got some neat tricks. I love how easily 'Doll' takes out Fang. And the dude with the swords taking on both Yama and Matrix is a lot of fun too. But Dingo knows this Pistol guy and immediately guesses who else is around. So John (AKA Falstaff) makes his appearance. I have to admit that I don't know much about the Shakespearean Falstaff, but this guy is quite the character. We saw that he had gained a lot of weight through the montage of training Harry, but here he has obviously been living the easy life. I love that he walks around with a turkey leg this whole scene. He ominously welcomes Dingo and his friends to "Eastcheap Isle" (uh, haven't you been attacking them the whole time?) and then 'strangles' Dingo with a bearhug. Creepy. Falstaff is an interesting character. He seems so cheerful and friendly and Santa Claus-like that you have to like him, but knowing what he has done... Well, suffice to say that Greg Weisman really likes to push the boundaries in Bad Guys of what is right and wrong, who is good and bad and who we are supposed to like or dislike. Fun stuff.
- So, all in all, a great chapter. We got a lot of interesting background on Dingo and finally moved beyond the Bad Guys Leica Reel. The story order is well laid out. The flashbacks don't just inform the present story, they are a rich part of it, enhancing it. When going from a present day scene to one of the flashbacks, there is no jarring shift because the two seemingly separate stories work so well together. It is very reminiscent of the Stone of Destiny story in the main Gargoyles comic in that the presence of a flashback at a particular moment actually adds new insight that wouldn't have been so clear had the story been told entirely chronologically. I suppose this is what Greg meant when he said that working the Stone of Destiny story has helped in how he wrote Bad Guys. Anyway, truly brilliant, great stuff!
Thanks. Glad you liked it.
Definitely felt freed up by the Stone of Destiny arc. It helped me use the medium better.
Now that "Clan-Building" and "Bad Guys: Redemption" have been completed, and while we pause for a while (hoping that you and SLG will get to do further "Gargoyles" stories together), I thought I'd look over the Master Plan document you shared with us over ten years ago, and see how that was fulfilled in the eighteen chapters.
First, the spin-offs. "Bad Guys" obviously was represented here, with the six-chapter origin story for the Redemption Squad. Also, "Pendragon" and "TimeDancer" both found their way into "Clan-Building", "Pendragon" with the Stone of Destiny story in #7 to #9 (you even mentioned the Stone of Destiny story in the "Pendragon" section) and "TimeDancer" in #10 to #12, where we saw the beginning of Brooklyn's TimeDancing, his first adventure with Mary and Finella, and the end with his return to New York with his new family.
We also got a taste of "The New Olympians" with Terry Chung's cameos, and maybe even a trace of "Gargoyles 2198" when Peredur mentioned that Arthur wasn't expected to awaken for another two hundred years (Britain and the rest of the planet would definitely be in an hour of need then - definitely shades of "Camelot 3000"). Nothing directly from "Dark Ages", however (Brooklyn's adventure in 997 comes close, but it takes place three years after the Wyvern Massacre that would presumably have formed the series finale) - though we know that you planned to do a story about that next.
Now I'll turn to your list of the planned elements for "Gargoyles"'s third season from the same document.
The Quarryman problem: I would have liked to see a bit more of that (to serve as an antidote to the "Goliath Chronicles" depiction of the Quarrymen), but I enjoyed what we saw. Castaway in Invitation Only" and "Estranged" showed himself to be shrewd and prudent as well as vengeful; I liked the details of his forbidding the Quarrymen to carry hammers on Halloween patrol (in case they mistake costumed trick-or-treaters for gargoyles) and the television commercial that Robyn and Jason see making the Quarrymen seem more like a charitable organization to help people in need than like a hate group.
Xanatos' conversion: And, of course, we saw that he didn't change that much; he's as much a trickster as ever, even ready to, after stealing the Stone of Destiny for the Illuminati, give them another duplicate and keep the original for himself. Life with him is certainly going to be interesting for the clan.
Broadway and Angela's relationship: Not much of this (beyond the library scene), but we clearly see that they're a couple.
Goliath and Elisa's relationship: Definitely there, with the Double Date story and their reconciliation (especially the big moment in "The Rock" when they get back together).
The four Tricksters and Alexander: One of the few threads from your list that didn't get in, but there's always next arc.
The Illuminati: And how! We learn more about the Society, including its internal structure (I'm still delighted with the revelation of exactly how many membership slots there are), and several new members (new in the sense of being "new characters"): Quincy Hemings, Shari, and Falstaff, not to mention our look at Peredur, Duval, and Blanchefleur at the top. We also learn that Thailog's joined the Society (that was one of the biggest surprises in the comic for me), and Fiona Canmore's a member as well. And we get a hint, in the scene between Peredur and the Stone of Destiny in Carbonek, of what the Illuminati's goal is (or at least, what Peredur's goal for the Illuminati is). Not to mention we see more of their shrewdness, with Hacker presenting a different story about the Illuminati's intentions towards the gargoyles to Matt, Xanatos, and Castaway separately.
The Ultra-Pack: We haven't seen them yet, either, but I've no doubt that the big fight with Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf in Times Square is going to encourage the Pack to upgrade again. And after reading "Bad Guys", I have a strong suspicion who the new member will be.
Coldsteel and Coyote: We saw their team-up in the Stone of Destiny story (another of the big surprises was Xanatos using the Coyote Diamond to improve Coyote 5.0 - even after seeing how you keep on bringing back elements from earlier episodes and expanding on them, I hadn't foreseen that).
The Clones: And we saw much of them, as well. I think that almost everyone expected to see Thailog seek to recover the Clones - but we then had the treat of that adventure providing character development for Delilah (who became an especially appealing character in "Bash") and Brentwood.
So we got quite a lot of the MasterPlan in those eighteen chapters. And I hope, someday, we'll see even more of it.
Me too!
It is almost amazing to me how... consistent the vision of the series has stayed over the years. I don't know if that's me being stubborn or me knowing a good thing when I stumble upon it or what, but although I'm constantly adding to the pre-canon in my head, most of the stuff I came up with as far back as 1994 is still valid.
I finally got my copy of "Bad Guys" today, and here's my review of the final two chapters in it, as a single post (they blended so well, I thought, that I decided to review them together).
I'll start with one word: Falstaff! I'd hoped, after Dingo's real name was revealed, that he'd get into "Bad Guys" in some way, and I was right. And as a bonus, we not only get Falstaff, but also his familiar gang (Mistress Quickly, Bardolph, Pistol, Doll, and Points [sic] - was his name deliberately changed from "Poins"?). I was delighted that in the last chapters of the comic, we'd get some fresh Shakespeare into "Gargoyles" - this time, you make use of the history plays for the first time.
And I got a big laugh out of Falstaff's original name being "Oldcastle", and his headquarters being named "Eastcheap". Not to mention, also, young Harry saying about his mother Mariah "She's the wind." Though the laughter quickly dried up after I saw, at the end of Chapter Five, what *really* happened to her.
I get a kick out of the way Fang's sitting at the conference table when Hunter's telling them about their new mission.
Was Bardolph's fire-breathing ability inspired by all the jokes about his Shakespearean namesake's fiery complexion in the Henry IV plays?
When Falstaff says that the Illuminati want to save the world, I couldn't help thinking that he might be right about that. We learned in "Gargoyles" #9 that the Illuminati's goals (at least, from Peredur's perspective) had something to do with Arthur's anticipated return, most likely to help him out when that happens - certainly a worthy aim. But of course, as Monsieur le Maire brings up in his phone conversation with the Director, the Society's taking the attitude of letting the ends justify the means (enrolling people like Xanatos, Thailog, and Mace Malone, running the Hotel Cabal, supporting the Quarrymen, stealing a national treasure like the Stone of Destiny, etc.).
Incidentally, even if you hadn't mentioned that the Director was at odds with the Illuminati in "Ask Greg", I think we'd have suspected that the Redemption Squad would be facing them at some point. The conversation between Hunter and Castaway in "Estranged" about who each other's financial backers are, and the Casablanca Hotel (whose name echoes the Hotel Cabal's), set up enough of a parallel to the Illuminati Society that a clash would *have* to take place. (Your philosophy about what makes a good antagonist at work, clearly.)
So Fiona Canmore's a member of the Illuminati. It's not a total shock (I'd seen speculations about it before), but a fun surprise, all the same - and so logical, too, in light of Hunter's identity. Thailog's cameo was fun as well (especially Yama's initial belief that the color on the monitor's gone wrong).
Despite Fang's many bad habits, I was impressed that he helped alert his teammates to the Illuminati's nature through his comments on Thailog, and his part in the battle that followed. Maybe, just maybe, there's hope for him yet.
I was delighted when Dingo urged his teammates not to destroy the island, because of all the artwork and historical artifacts stored there (it reminded me a bit of Broadway and Hudson urging Goliath not to burn the Scrolls of Merlin). Another reason why I've grown fond of the guy.
I liked the ending - Falstaff gets away and the Redemption Squad have only managed to capture one of his gang, but that wasn't the real issue. The real issue was their search for redemption, as Yama points out. (I liked the leavening of humor here - Matrix still displaying his single-minded interest in law and order; even Yama is amused here - and his turning to stone in mid-speech, to Fang's exasperation.)
Thanks for the spin-off, Greg. I hadn't initially expected to like "Bad Guys" (I thought it would be just another conventional action series), but I really enjoyed it a lot - especially with Falstaff and his gang, as I said above. And thanks for the eighteen new chapters in the Gargoyles Universe that you gave us with the comics. I hope that they shan't be the last - but even if they were, they've enriched us all the more.
Yes, Poins was deliberately changed to Points to fit his skills... and Bardolph's ability was indeed inspired by the "hellfire" within that the Shakespearean Bardolph is always described as having.
I just got Clan Building vol. 2 and Bad Guys today. I'd post a long elaborate review of just how much I love this comic and how hopeful I am that we get more Garg stuff, but many people have said what I'd say and better. So, I'll just post a short review:
These were quite possibly some of the most badass comics I've ever read in my life. Thank you.
WOw. Thank YOU!!
Review for GARGOYLES CLAN-BUILDING; CHAPTER 10: THE GATE
Okay, this has been the most anticipated story-line in the entire Gargoyles Fandomâ¦and man it did not disappoint.
First, a shout out to the AMAZING art by Greg Gulerâ¦Karine Charlebois said that the art was beyond description at the 08 Gatheringâ¦but seeing it nowâ"it knocks Karine from my favorite gargoyles comic artist to my second fave. (No offense to her, I do still LOVE her work)
So Brooklyn goes gliding away from the Eerie Buildingâ¦presumably to get away from the Lovey-dovey couple. Too bad they appeared to have followed him. The look of annoyance on Brookâs face was priceless. (Oh, incidentallyâ¦it took me ages to figure out what the sign on the building they landed on said. At first, I thought it might be the GOLDEN CUP building from the series, or perhaps the CASABLANCA HOTEL. I finally realized that itâs THE DAILY BUGLE. Cleverâ¦you placed so many GARGOYLES references in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN; it was kinda nice to see a Spidey reference in Gargs.)
You waste no time, the Gate appears, and Brook tries to pick it upâ¦and it disintegrates. An enormous two-page Phoenix emerges and swallows Brooklyn whole, leaving Broadway and Angela behind, looking on in horrorâ¦I could hear Broadwayâs voiceâ¦
997, Brook emerges from the flamesâ¦I note that the Phoenix itself does not seem to appear, but rather an orange glow just off-screen. It makes me wonder if the Phoenix actually shows up when Brook is arriving, or if he just tumbles out of the flames, with no actual Phoenix manifesting.
I recognized Gillecomgain, Constantine III, and Mail Brigti right away (though, I did not know Mailâs nameâ¦just that he was Gillyâs father.) Their reactionâs to Brooklynâs appearance was not unexpected. Brigti seems indifferentâ¦oh look, a gargoyle. Oh look, a cow. Oh look, a horse. No big deal.
Gilly calls Brook a âdemonâ. BIG shock there. (Rolls eyes) Constantine orders them to kill it. It reminds me of his âI donât like Gargoyle Eggsâ line in âAvalon Part 1â C and G fail miserably to take Brook downâ¦but this fourth figureâ¦Brother Valmont, uses potent sorcery to shoot a flaming arrow that hits Brooklynâs leg.
From what the Magus said in âAvalon Part 3â I thought one needed a conduit to use magicâ¦like the Grimorum, but this guy seems to be able to use magic without one.
The next few pages are the most interesting to meâ¦Brook breaks apart the arrow and it bursts into magical flamesâ¦makes me wonder if it would have done that if heâd left it in.
Finella tears the wanted poster off the doorâ¦and mysteriouslyâ¦thereâs anotherâ¦and when the guard tears off the posterâ¦thereâs yet another. Is this another one of Brother Valmontâs magics?
And then the minions comeâ¦and it canât help the gargoyle-human relations that Brook is redâ¦with horns. Based on Finellaâs expressions, I donât think sheâs ever seen a gargoyle before.
Moving onâ¦Maol Chalvim and Kenneth III (AKA The Grim). I like The Grim, but it surprised me that heâs Bodheâs dadâ¦and it upset me slightly that when I did the historical research that Maol would overthrow him. Butâ¦I liked Findlaechâs appearance too.
Then we some cool new gargoyle designs, including a new beast in the foreground, only to see them get smashed. I especially liked the female with the âbeardâ of spikes. She was cool. And another wanted poster is posted.
And Brooklyn awakesâ¦I love how much Mary has changed in her attitude in just three short yearsâ¦and Brook makes a Quantum Leap referenceâ¦very cool, considering that that show was quite popular in the 90âs. (And still is in some circles)
I love that Brooklyn GETS why heâs here so quickly. He understands how Avalon works, and figures that the Phoenix works the same way. I also think heâs actually pleased with the situationâ¦considering that heâs now away from Broadway and Angelaâ¦I would be too in his shoesâ¦and I HAVE been in those shoes before.
And we end with a full page picture of Demona that was so cool I took a picture and made it the wallpaper on my phone, and Iâm not even that big a Demona fan. I note sheâs holding the wanted posterâ¦and wonder if there is a new one on the cave wall.
I think that I will post my reviews of 11 & 12 at a later date, but I look forward to the arrival of my Bad Guys.
And I look forward to your reviews, Chip. Thanks!
Okay, Iâve been holding off on reviewing till I had my Bad Guys Trade in my hot little handsâ¦itâs been almost four weeks and I still have no BG tradeâ¦*Sigh* so I figure I might as well review now.
GARGOYLES CLAN-BUILDING; CHAPTER 9: ROCK & ROLL
Not much to say here, Iâve been sitting on this story for almost a year, as I was in the 2008 Radio Play. (Playing Griffâ"My Favorite Characterâ"thank you again for the gift of that role again Greg, and whoever else was involved. Wish I could have been at the 09 Gatheringâ¦but I just couldnât afford a trip to LAâ¦apologies) I knew how it would turn out, but the art was spectacularâ¦and using the art, Greg managed to throw a few more curves my way.
I didnât expect to see Macbeth battling alongside Robert the Bruceâ¦makes me wonder just how involved Mac was with Scottish History. Didnât expect Duval to be a cyborgâ¦THAT was a huge curveball. Also, I didnât realize it before, but even though she appeared, Fleurâs name was never spoken aloudâ¦which means itâs technically still Canon in Training, even though she herself has appeared and is ranked â3â.
Also didnât expect to see Leo and Una atop Knightâs Spurâ¦that was a pleasant surpriseâ¦though I was disappointed that we couldnât get a good look at Old Pogâ¦I really like that gargoyle.
Glad it wasn't a letdown, even when spoiled...
My Review For Gargoyles #12, "Phoenix"...
- So, we have finally come to the last chapter of Clan-Building. As with Issue #11, I'll do my best to review this one with my initial impressions at the forefront, though I know I won't be able to resist mentioning further information and insight from the Gathering.
- Again, lets start with this awesome cover. After all the mixed feelings I've had about the numerous covers (both from Gargoyles and Bad Guys), I'm happy that this final cover really hit all the right spots. It is brightly colored and visually interesting. It is funny due to the obvious Star Wars reference and thus works well to grab the attention of comic book store shoppers. It has a lot going on without giving anything away or being too busy. I really think it is the best cover (aside from Issue #1 and possibly #5) and so I was thrilled it made it to the cover of Clan-Building Volume 2.
- On to the meat of the book now (and boy, is there a lot of meat, this thing is crammed full), we open, no in 997 with Brooklyn as I suspected, but rather in 1997 with Goliath. His monologue here is really great. It bookends this chapter, but more importantly it bookends the Clan-Building series as it parallels directly with Goliath's monologue to Elisa (and us) in Issue #1 about his clan. You could even say it goes all the way back to the opening sequence of the Season 2 episodes. Anyway, it works beautifully here. I can't help but think of Closing Ceremonies at the Gathering when I read it now. Greg Weisman talked about how the moment was so bittersweet, and it was... is. But reading this issue, and Goliath's monologue in particular, really gives me hope for this franchise and this fandom.
- Meanwhile, a thousand years ago, Brook is giving his own inner monologue, but he isn't doing it in quiet solitude, he is giving it in the thick of the Battle of Rathveramoen! I like that even as people are dieing all around him and his own life is truly at risk, his thoughts dwell on his family back home. We worries that they are worried about him, but of course, they barely have time to worry at all, but he doesn't know that yet. But he realizes to get home to see his family again, his job is to help the Grim win the battle, keep the Grimorum out of the wrong hands, and keep the last bunch of gargoyles in Scotland safe. Of course, all of these objectives are in jeopardy of going undone. Ironically, the battle itself seems to be going well. Brooklyn, "Demona" and the clan are kicking some ass (or rather breaking some necks, slicing some flesh and causing some heavy damage from high-altitude drops). This battle is a lot of fun visually. And there is a lot going on. Brook has a couple really great moments. First he and a fellow gargoyle, "Bro", have this great exchange about being rookery brothers. It was very cool to finally meet a rookery sibling of the trio (knowing that they were, of course), but it wasn't until the Gathering where Greg Weisman pointed out that the gargoyle behind these two watching this exchange is probably Brooklyn's BIOLOGICAL brother. How cool is that?! We get a great example of how relationships work within gargoyle clans. So cool, and such a contrast to what we see going on with the humans, where blood relationships define everything (and seem to be causing a lot of trouble). Then Brooklyn gets a very cool moment with Demona where they discuss Goliath. She is such a hypocrite here. She bitches that when the humans are finished fighting each other, they will come after the gargoyles, but her plan is to kill their human allies once they've defeated their rivals! Does she even hear herself? Well, this is Demona, her own worst enemy after all.
- While the battle rages, not far away, the Grimorum has finally fallen into the wrong hands. Mary and Finella (and Magus the horse) do what they can to get the book back, but to little avail. Valmont uses the book to cast a pretty nasty spell that seems to amplify the one he has used a few times before. Fiery arrows rain down on the battle and a lot of gargoyles are injured or killed. We get a really sad scene of the sacrifice of one gargoyle for her mate. But this whole thing makes me so angry at Demona. She uses these deaths (both in this chapter and in City of Stone) as fuel for her hate, but in doing so she negates all that they are fighting and dying for. And THEN, she remarks how she cannot undo these awful things that have happened. Well, duh, girl, but making things worse is not the solution! What a hypocrite and a bitch! She drives me nuts, and to all of the Demona-apologist fans out there I ask you to pay attention to what is going on here.
- Meanwhile, the humans are battling it out. Constantine and the Grim seem evenly matched until Constantine threatens Bodhe, then the Grim really lets him have it. Constantine's reign as King ends as it begins, with someone getting stabbed, though at least this isn't a cold murder, but a death in battle. The Grim has that over Constantine. And speaking of Bodhe, he seems to be getting trounced by Gillecomgain, which is no surprise in that Gille is twice his size and probably much more skilled in battle. Bodhe seems to barely survive, and only luck saves him when Gille gets distracted by his father's death, but you can tell the event probably traumatized him for life (Greg indicated at the Gathering that this event, the murder of the Grim a few years later and the murder of Bodhe's own sone a few years after that all lead to his behavior in City of Stone. This all has made Bodhe very interesting to me). Findlaech really comes across as a good guy here, he wanted to share with his brother and Mail Brigti refused, he didn't want to kill his nephew because after it all he didn't want to end his brother's line. It really makes me wonder what Findlaech thought when Maol Chalvim usurped the Grim a few years down the line. And speaking of that, some of Constantine's final words seem almost prophetic. He senses Maol's thirst for the throne and blattanly tells the Grim of it. He even inspires Gillecomgain to become the first Hunter.
- Anyway, the battle ends, the arrows are stopped and just when things seem to have called down the Phoenix reappears. Brooklyn is understandably annoyed. He doesn't get to see what comes next, and we can relate, we don't either. Guess it is off to hit the history books to see what happened next... for now. Before he is off, Brook smoothly recovers the Grimorum from Demona and passes it back to Finella and Mary. I was a bit surprised that Finella didn't get a chance to use magic herself as I thought she would due to her talk in #11, but I wasn't surprised that Mary and Finella asked to go with Brooklyn, having had that idea spoiled for me years ago online. I suspect that all three of them thought they would be going right back to the time and place Brook came from and I suspect therein lies Mary's real motivation. I think she wants to see Tom again and knows he is safe and alive (and married) in Brook's time. Well, we don't get to find out... yet. The Phoenix, once again, seems to have Brooklyn singled out and we can assume the "Time-Fowl" snatched up Mary and Finella and the Grimorum too.
- So we, the audience, pop back to 1997 to the moments right after Brooklyn left... and he reappears. We are told that he is not alone, and I think the less-informed (or less spoiled) fan might think Finella and Mary are with him, but most of us know better. Back at the Castle, Hudson and Lex finally come home from London and as I suspected Coldstone and Coldfire came with. I'm thrilled that they are finally members of the Clan in full. And then we come to probably the most anticipated moment for fans for the last ten years. The reveal of Brooklyn's family. I have to admit, I didn't know what to expect outside of a female Ishimuran gargoyle, her and Brook's son and a gargoyle beast (and an egg, okay I had a good idea what the egg would look like). Katana is very cool. I love that we finally have a beaked female in the canon, I love that attention was paid to her number of fingers and toes to reflect her clan of origin. I do have a slight worry that the two beaked gargoyles would end up together. I know that a beaked gargoyle could just as well mate with a non-beaked gargoyle, but I worry that some fans might not see this. I dunno. A minor worry for me. Gnash is a lot of fun, he seems older than his age indicates. Must be the weapon. Really, the whole family seems like they have a lot of stories to tell. Or rather, for Greg to tell. I like Brooklyn's line about his journey being a long story and "some of it even true". Ties us nicely with the journey Goliath set us on back in #2 and with Shari's tales. And lets not forget Fu-Dog. I LOVE Fu-Dog's design. Very cool. I hope he and Bronx get along. Other nice things about this final scene include Hudson laughing and being so happy. When I see him here, I think back to his line in "The Gathering" where he is so happy that they are not the last and not alone. He gets to see his decimated clan grow. How cool. I really like how Angela wants to hold 'Egwardo'. I never thought about her never having seen an egg before (I suppose I figured she saw the clutches in Ishimura or ChacIxChel), but I love the motherly aspect this gives her and Broadway's reaction to it. A lot of fans seem to focus on Katana's reluctance to let go of the egg, but I don't see that as that big of a deal. It isn't like she violently refused, and after all they've been through, you have to understand her reluctance. Anyway, Elisa's reaction to showing up was really cool. I mean she was probably expecting Goliath, Bronx, Broadway, Angela and Brooklyn at most. Instead she comes out of the elevator too see this whole motley crew. Coldstone, Coldfire, Katana, Gnash, Fu-Dog and even Brooklyn must've been a real shock. I like her "Whoa... Goliath...?" But, there isn't time for explanations, we have to go kick some butt. As Greg indicated at the Gathering, I'm sure they did. All these gargoyles versus Wolf, Jackal and Hyena. As Lex states, they'll "never know what hit 'em!" A GREAT ending to this awesome Clan-Building arc. Of course, it is "Never The End..." Not for the Manhattan Clan or the Gargoyles series or the fandom. This comic couldn't have been released at a more poignant time. Great job, Greg. Really, this is awesome stuff. And ALL of the artists made it work so beautifully as well. Thank You!
Eagerly awaiting Gargoyles #13, "Manhattan, Chapter One"...
Thanks, Matt. I can't wait to write it!
"Gargoyles, Bad Guys: Redemption. #6: Losers"
We pick up where we left off, but, at last we meet the mystery man who is behind the Redemption Squad. A man obscured in shadow called 'the Director.' We don't see much of him, but he works for an organization which, I suspect, is trying to bring down the Illuminati.
Anyway, Falstaff introduces his band of freaks. Pistol (a gun fighter); Points (swordsman); Bardolph (He breathes fire); Mistress Doll (a contortionist); and Mistress Quickly.
Falstaff then invites the Redemption Squad to dinner. Dingo is asking Falstaff the questions; Hunter is sitting there fuming in silence; Yama is listening; Matrix is absorbing metal; and Fang is stuffing his face.
Falstaff decides that the Redemption Squad would make a great asset, and on behalf of the Illuminati, he offers them membership. Besides, the Illuminati is only trying to save the world. Which I am sure is true... from their point of view. And he can prove it.
Hunter is given a chance to speak with her great-aunt, Fiona Canmore. This made me bug out a little, because a year or so ago, I asked myself "if Fiona Canmore is supposed to still be alive in 1997, when she was hunting Demona in 1920... what if she was an Illuminatus and had access to their rejuvenation drugs?" But I never expected to see it in the canon. Gargoyles Fans Collective Conscious strikes again!
Across the room, Yama and Fang are connected to... Goliath. Except the coloring is off, and Yama asks for someone to fix the color. Whoops, it's not Goliath it's... Thailog. He asks Fang to vouch for him. Which Fang obliges.
Meanwhile, Dingo cannot believe that Falstaff got out of the life... but, what better job is there for the world's greatest thief than to guard the world's biggest treasury. The island: Eastcheap Isle is the Illuminati's treasury. And we see a room that would make Scrooge McDuck green with envy.
So, the Redemption Squad are left to confer. Join the Illuminati or not. But Yama knows the Illuminati cannot be trusted. And why? Because Fang vouched for Thailog and Fang knows the rest of the squad doesn't trust him. Really sneaky Fang.
So, we have a nice fight between the squad, and Falstaff's gang of freaks. But when the Redemption Squad gains the upper hand, Falstaff sinks the island... which is actually a ship. The Redemption Squad manage to escape... having lost this round.
Now, some might find it a bummer that the Redemption Squad didn't really achieve a victory here... beyond capturing Mistress Quickly. Falstaff and the rest of his crew escape, with the treasury.
But, Yama sums up what this was really all about. The never ending struggle for redemption. But Fang is just happy to have survived. He's not interested in redemption... maybe one day, but not yet.
Overall, a fun introduction to what I am sure would have been a great series. Greg's writing is as sharp as ever. But I have to say that I've always admired Karine Charlebois' art. I've watched her grow as an artist since 1997. But, with these comics, you can see her getting progressively better with each issue. She's great.
I know that if we get a license renewal and we get more spin-offs, Greg is planning a Dark Ages story, then a Pendragon story, then a TimeDancer story. But, I'll be honest. This really whetted by appetite. I want to see more of these characters and this team.
Me too!
"Gargoyles, Bad Guys: Redemption. #5: Strangled"
This issue is told somewhat non-linearly, but no where near to the extent as the recent Stone of Destiny story in "Gargoyles."
Parts of this center around Dingo's past. We see Dingo/Harry Monmouth as a small child rush home only to be told by his surrogate father figure, John Oldcastle, that his mother, Mariah, has run off again. Mariah is apparently a bit of a free-spirit... and this was the 1970s. Young Harry seems hardly surprised, as Mariah has done this before. But John promises to take care of him. And, for the next decade or so of his life, John... a professional thief and criminal trains Harry and the two of them pull off a series of heists.
In the present day (hee hee, 1997), Hunter informs the now full squad of Dingo, Matrix, Yama, and Fang, that their next target is an Illuminati stronghold on an island. So now, it all comes together. This is the island that we've been seeing this squad battle those giant robots.
The squad destroys the robots and enters the stronghold, where they discover a gigantic Illuminati banner, and they are ambushed by a bunch of freaky villains in Renaissance get-up. Dingo immediately recognizes one of them as someone he worked with when he was younger and pulling jobs with John Oldcastle, and knows who they're up against.
Enter John Oldcastle, who now calls himself Falstaff. And like the Falstaff of William Shakespeare's "Henry IV," Falstaff is a rather large individual who loves to eat and drink. He also refers to himself as the "King of Thieves." The Shakespeare character was a thief as well. Gotta hand it to Greg, if he can reference the Immortal Bard, he will. Shakespeare is always a wonderful thing to include, and like the series, you don't need to be fluent in it to enjoy it.
And while I'm on the point, there was a historical John Oldcastle. He was arrested for heresy, escaped from the Tower of London, and plotted to capture King Henry V (they used to be friends) and his family. He was eventually executed... hanged and burned. They say Shakespeare based his Falstaff off of John Oldcastle. Which makes Weisman's choice in the name very appropriate.
Falstaff greets Dingo with a big manly hug... and then we cut back to our flashback to Dingo's youth, when he returned home to discover his mom had taken off again. Only, she didn't take off... John Oldcastle strangled her to death in their bedroom.
I liked this issue. Everything seems to be coming together, and the story has caught up with itself. I also think that final page outlines the advantages of the comic book medium. "Gargoyles" on TV got away with a lot, but S&P would hardly allow any cartoon series to depict a man with his hands around the throat of a dead woman (and make no mistake, she is already dead in that shot) in their bedroom.
To be concluded...
Yep, she's dead all right.
Thanks for the final act of the Radio Play, Greg.
The ending, with the Illuminati getting their hands on the Spear and the Crown of Thorns, surprised me. Well, apart from the fact that a part of me thought that, in light of the Illuminati's links to the Holy Grail, it would be appropriate if they eventually got the Spear of Destiny, which turns up in the medieval Grail romances a number of times (in the role of the spear that crippled the Fisher King). And so Tombstone's an Illuminatus as well - pity that it can't be canon.
I was also surprised at Dominic Dracon's death - killing off a canonical character in a non-canonical script!
A few other highlights: more people telling Margot to "give it a rest", the "Casablanca" quote at the end, and Demona stuck at Ravencroft - though I doubt that she'll be there long.
Thanks for such a delightful piece, Greg.
You're welcome!
My Review For Gargoyles #11, "Tyrants"...
- Alright. I'm a liar. I said in my "Rock of Ages" review that I planned to read each issue independently and review them before moving on to the next chapter, so as to get my true first impressions of each story without influence from later chapters or talking with fans. I was doing pretty well until this issue. By the end of it, I could hardly stop before moving on to #12. What is worse is that I've recently returned home from the Gathering and have had lots of discussions and revelations about the entire book. Nevertheless, I'll do my best to write these reviews as separate issues, focusing on my initial impressions for the most part.
- So, as usual, I'll start with the cover. Brooklyn meeting his past, frozen self is a neat idea. The cover made me wonder immediately if Brook will ever meet and talk to himself at some point in his TimeDancing. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Anyway, it is a good, fun cover.
- We pick up more or less where we left off, though I get the sense that some time is passing in 10-12 that we are not seeing. There is a lot of traveling through Scotland going on and I'm sure Brook is spending days on the road. What strikes me about that is that this time is passing without note, which contrast greatly with the previous three comics where every minute was accounted for. So, Mary, Finella and Brooklyn arrive back at Wyvern. A few years have passed since the Massacre and all seems quiet and calm at the old Castle. Brooklyn finally gets a chance to really face what happened to his Clan. Their crushed remains lie all around him. Brook is such a rich character. Capable of such sorrow and anguish and still be one of the most humorous characters in the series. Great writing. Brooklyn learns quickly that it isn't a great idea to talk about future events to people in the past when Mary asks about Tom. I get the sense here that Mary and Finella know and believe Brook is from the future, but not from how far in the future. I doubt Mary knows about how time passes on Avalon, so I suspect that she might only believe Brook is from a few decades down the road. Interesting. Also of note here is that Brook finds an old scabbard for the sword he obtained in the last chapter. I think this merits note because suddenly Brooklyn feels the need to carry a weapon, something he has never needed before. He also discovers that Goliath's half of the Phoenix Gate is not available.
- Meanwhile, in less quiet corners of Scotland, the busy world of war and politics is ticking along. Constantine fulfills his moniker of "Constantine the Bald" by shaving his head. Thanks to Todd Jenson and the GargWiki I was well aware of this historical tidbit before reading this chapter and it gave me a cool feeling. Constantine's relationship with Gillecomgain is very interesting, and thus the relationship with Mail Brigti is interesting as well. Constantine seems creepily fascinated by the teenager and this seems to worry Brigti, though he is probably wise to say nothing of it. Most strongly on Constantine's mind seems to be the war however. I like how he mentions the "Three Brothers". Valmont is cool here too. He deduces that Katharine and Magus have left "this world", Tom is with them or dead and that the Grimorum remains in Scotland all by reading the entrails of goats! A talented and creepy sorcerer to be sure.
- And finally, in another corner of Scotland, Demona arrives to her clan's cave with bad news. "They're all dead". Yikes. She seems mostly pissed off, but everyone else seems more shocked and sad. I like that distinction. And lets talk about this clan. The male gargoyles are not new to us, but the females and the beasts are. I can't help suspecting that the beasts are Bronx's biological parents and that the young female is 'True', Hudson's biological daughter. As it turns out, both suspicions were correct as revealed at the Gathering. Apparently, this cell is of gargoyles that originated at Wyvern. Kinda cool. We also get our first canon mention of the Wind Ceremony (just as earlier we got our first canon mention of the Humility Spell, this is a good chapter for canonizing things). I like how young, innocent 'True' suggests a Wind Ceremony, but the older, harder, angrier Demona just wants vengeance. For me this symbolizes Demona's ironic drift from the true gargoyle ways.
- And in yet one more corner of Scotland, the army of the Three Brothers assembles. I love their emblem being the three swords. A symbol of unity as opposed to Constantine's claw being a symbol of domination. So, while Demona plots to kill all humanity, Grim is hoping they will be strong allies, that is pretty cool. Really plays into how much I like the Grim. And he gets some luck when Brooklyn arrives and immediately allies himself, with hope that he can bring an army of gargoyles. Things are looking up for the army of the Three Brothers. I also want to mention that I found it funny to see Bodhe and Brooklyn standing next to each other. Not two characters I ever really suspected of being in the same scene, but I suppose TimeDancer will give us plenty of surprises along that line.
- So, we've visited all the 'camps' in this issue and now they all start coming together. After a really funny moral message to his audience beyond the fourth wall, Brooklyn leaves to find the last remaining gargoyles in Scotland. I get a good sense of a lot more time passing here. Maybe a few days or even longer. Brook finds more smashed clans and spends his days hiding before finally being discovered by an old acquaintance, the gargoyle who will be Demona. Naturally, he attacks her immediately. She is amazed to discover she knows him and he barely keeps his anger in check. I like how they both start lying to each other about how they survived the Massacre. After Demona stammers out her line about being in the forest, Brook brushes it off with a "Doesn't matter". I love how he knows she is lying and yet doesn't call her on it. Good restraint on his part and from the other angle it makes me wonder what Demona's reaction will be when she realizes Brooklyn was not being entirely honest either.
- Back at the ranch, Finella wants to try to use the Grimorum. Mary says this sounds dangerous, and I have to agree. Everyone else who has used the book was probably in training for years. We'll see if she can pull it off. I suppose knowing Latin and seeing magic performed before is a good start, but still...
- And at the opposing army's camp, Constantine the Artist is doing some really fun face-painting for the kids... or actually creating an emblem of fear, hatred and genocide which will last for centuries. And all the while is being a real jerk. Killing the messenger and all that. And finally we come to the Battle of Rathveramoen, which we've been building towards for a while. The army of the Three Brothers seems way out-gunned until sunset. And then we get this AWESOME two page spread of Brooklyn leading the gargoyle army into the battle. I noted a couple cool things with this battle. I liked how the gargoyle beasts are seen already chomping down on Constantine's men. I like how Demona's Clan left the young gargoyles behind which contrasts with Bodhe being in the battle, against Gillecomgain, no less. I like how Demona's Second is thrilled at the thought of a 'true battle' rather than the hiding the scattered clan had been doing, and I find it cool that he (and apparently the whole clan) has started calling Brooklyn "The Gargoyle of the Sword". Not a name, of course, but just gargoyles being gargoyles. Why call it 'The Hudson' and not just 'the river', why call him 'Brooklyn' and not just 'the gargoyle of the sword'? The are just called what they are, I love it.
- And lastly we get the battle coming to where it wasn't supposed to get. Mary and Finella's guards are quickly taken out by Valmont and the Grimorum is snatched away. And we get this iconic Gargoyles moment where Demona and her enemy speak the same passionate line. In this case both desire to control Scotland. Really great stuff.
- This was a really interesting issue. Lots of new, cool things to look at, new canon stuff and a great battle begins. A fun issue that clearly left me desperate for more as I was unable to stop reading at this point. And I can still in my mind almost hear Valmont or Constantine's voice-over say "To Be Concluded..."
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I did really try to put everything I could into those issues...
Mr. Weismen I just got finished reading the Clan Building Vol 2 comic and I've got to say thank you. I felt the magic all over again. For us fans who have all been waiting years for this comic it was well worth the wait. The history and adventure in the story arcs were awesome. If felt the magic of Gargoyles all over again. Thank you for your dedication to the fans and keeping the dream alive for us all over the years. Thanks much no questions just wanted to give some praise to a job well done.
Praise is always welcome!!!
Thanks for the second act of "A Handful of Thorns". I enjoyed it, especially all the in-jokes (Brooklyn's spin-off remarks, the Green Goblin thinking of calling up Disney about the gargoyles, Elisa repeating her "street pizza" line from "Awakening Part One", Demona's remark about the stage being crowded enough, etc.). You must really have had a blast writing it.
So how good would a couple of gargoyle beasts be at looking after an egg? (At least nobody is going to try stealing it with Bronx and Fu-Dog on guard duty!)
On the more serious note, I liked your exploring of the impact of Brooklyn's Timedancing adventures upon the trio.
A great cliffhanger ending (I hope it won't offend any of the readers). I'll admit that I would expect the Spear of Destiny to be in a different location in the Gargoyles Universe - I won't say where, because it would break the "no original ideas" - but I've read enough about the medieval legends concerning that same spear to guess.
Looking forward to Act Three (I hope the weekend won't seem too slow).
I'm not sure "blast" is the word I'd use for the writing process. (Too many characters; too little time.) But we definitely had a blast performing it.
I think you asked and answered your own question re: Beasts and egg.
BAD GUYS
REDEMPTION
LOSERS
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!
And now we meet the Director. Sort of. We never get a clear look at his face, or learn his real name. In a way this makes him the opposite of another surprise character, Monsieur Le Maire, who appears to be the Director's superior! We know his name (or alias at least), but we never see him, or learn exactly what organization they belong to. Just what we need, another "super-secret organization." At least this one seems to be trying not to fall into the "ends justify the means" trap.
I just noticed on my second read through that Falstaff stuffs his leg of meat into his tankard while talking. I guess if you enjoy beer soaked meat....
We get introduced to Falstaff's motley crew, and Dingo introduces his group (poor Fang's out cold for his intro), and we move to dinner. I love the look on Fang's face after Hunter says they "won't be breaking any bread" ("Uh...we won't?" with a mouthful of food). Interestingly, the Matrix seems to be sampling the silverware. I also enjoy Hunter's reaction to Dingo's defense of Falstaff as having raised him ("That's a recommendation?").
Matrix seems to confound Falstaff from the get-go. I particularly like the look he gives Matrix when it makes a statement in regards to its attempt to take over the world "with geometry."
Of course, we come to the part we saw in the trailer where Falstaff makes the claim that the Illuminati are the good guys, and brings in character witnesses for that. Namely, Fiona Canmore and Thailog (love Yama's initial call for someone to fix the color after thinking it was Goliath).
Both offer some wonderful character/plot moments. For Fiona, there's the revelation that the "family" has been looking for Robyn (just how big is the Canmore family anyway?), and that "the Hunt" is just a part of something larger (of which we are not told right now). Thailog describes himself as Goliath's "rookery son" (I felt I had to laugh at the audacity of that lie), and then says Fang will vouch for him. Fang's next line ("Sure. Thailog's my kinda gargoyle") floored me. Saying that EXACT phrase to Yama pretty much guaranteed that Yama would want nothing to do with the Illuminati. Actually, Fang brings a lot of surprises in this issue, but I'll deal with the rest later.
That is a LOT of treasure. I just had to say that.
I find it hilarious that everyone has to hop for the Matrix to form a "privacy bubble." It's a fun image--as is all of them crowded together inside. Meanwhile Falstaff is stymied in his attempts to eavesdrop on their conversation. The Matrix has done nothing to endear itself to him.
The inter-cutting of the Squad's "signing up" with the Illuminati and their earlier private conference in the bubble do an effective job of keeping the reader guessing. At first I was a bit confused, but on my second read through I finally figured out what was going on. They make the decision that the Illuminati cannot be trusted, but Dingo doesn't want to just nuke the place. In addition to wanting to spare the lives of his foes, he also wants to save the treasure and all the art and history contained therein (and proving himself closer to "hero" than "anti-hero" in the process), so they play along. Their attempt at infiltration goes south, however. Maybe it was Falstaff's halfhearted acceptance of Hunter's claim that she works for Interpol, or the fact that the Thieves were already surrounding them, but something convinces Fang that Falstaff is onto them, and he starts blasting (taking out Doll first, probably for payback).
There's a lot of stuff with this fight I like:
-how quickly and easily the Matrix neutralizes Mistress Quick.
-Dingo's unhappy look at having to face off against his old mentor.
-Yama's rather unique method of defeating Points (yet another showcase of something that would NEVER have made it on television). Interestingly, I think there are actually stories from Japan of swordsmen defeating opponents with such tactics.
-Hunter's graceful handling of Bardolph.
-And Pistol's surprise entrance with a BFG.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Matrix really could blow up the island (I find that more believable than it lying about such a thing--doesn't seem programmed for that yet). The fact that the island is a freakin' submarine caught me by surprise, but not as much as Falstaff's casual dismissal of them all drowning. After all that he'd seen/heard about the Matrix, did he really think something like this would kill them? And he didn't seem too upset about the capture of Mistress Quick (who has a whole "screaming statue" thing going on). Speaking of which, I wonder if she's at all conscious throughout this sequence.
Matrix makes a nice raft. I really enjoy the conversation here at the end, especially Yama's little speech. Even if he doesn't feel he has redeemed himself yet, he certainly seems more at peace than he was in "The Lost." I also enjoy everyone's surprise at Yama's statement that Fang was actually "more right than wrong." Actually, Fang is surprising in several ways, not the least of which is how helpful he is to the squad. He subtly indicates that Thailog (and by extension, the Illuminati) is untrustworthy, doesn't give Falstaff time to trap them, and sounds almost philosophical about losing the mission but surviving. The serious look on his face while Yama gives his speech caught me off guard, too. I never would have pegged Fang as interested in redemption before. I wonder if Tasha's suicide had something to do with it.
So Yama turns to stone in mid-sentence before he can say how they'll know they are redeemed, much to Fang's (rather humorous) consternation. I love how Yama's Squad uniform does not turn to stone with him. I'm also rather surprised at the smile Hunter and Dingo share. It's nice to see them not sniping at each other for once.
Nothing left to say really, except about that sketch on the inside of the back cover. I don't remember Hunter kissing Dingo like that in these comics! Here's hoping we see something like that in a comic in the near future.
As I often say, "Give me enough issues..."
BAD GUYS
REDEMPTION
STRANGLED
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!
Wow. We finally get to where the leica reel ends (with all the requisite high action). All the while it is interspersed with flashbacks--the most interesting being the look at Dingo's past. It's sad to see how quickly the news his mother's walked out again quells his joyous mood (did anyone else see how he crushed his math test in his fist? One thing about Karine's art: it's so full of little details). I knew something wasn't quite right with John from the way he was holding the door closed, and the look on his face. I will admit, I kind of figured he had killed Mariah, but I didn't expect the shot at the end of the comic with his friggin' hands still around her throat! That one was a shocker (though after the suicide, I wonder why that should be). Actually, seeing John Oldcastle's interactions with the young Harry is very disarming. He does seem to genuinely care about the boy (but that could just show how good a liar he is). As a side note, I know that the comic gets away with a lot, but young Harry's joking question about John being a "molester" raised an eyebrow.
The "teaching montage" is just beautiful. Shows where Dingo learned most of his skills, but not necessarily his style (the surprise on John's face when teen-Harry proudly displays his new haircut is hilarious). One question that is not resolved: WHY did Oldcastle kill Mariah? A story for another day, I guess.
Loved the shot of Dingo saving Hunter. The look on her face during that sequence is priceless. Of course, immediately after that "moment of weakness" (so to speak) she pushes off Dingo and free-falls(!) to take out another robot. Damn!
I loved Dingo's reaction to Robyn's rather melodramatic description of the Illuminati as a "super-secret organization trying to take over the world. ("Seriously?") You've got to feel for Dingo. Even after leaving the Pack, his life refuses to stop acting like a comic book. At least this time he's a hero.
Yama's still not happy about Fang coming along. He's even less happy about losing that sword. I loved the robot POV just before its destruction, as well as Yama's casual inspection and then discarding of the head.
Dingo tries to help up Hunter, she blows him off, and for some reason has a smug smile on her face (is she just proud of blowing up a robot herself?). Actually, Dingo really seems to be looking out for Hunter here--when he calls out the possibility of a trap, he has his right arm out as if to shield her or hold her back. She is not impressed, of course.
Matrix as a light source (that's a little TOO bright). Win!
"Guess we came to the right secret lair." Indeed, you have to admire the subtlety of that gigantic wall decoration.
And then we are introduced to a nimble young woman apparently named "Doll." All I can say about the last panel of her introductory page, where she sends Fang flying with a flip that leaves her doing a handstand with her legs wide open, is "SWEET JEEBUS!"
Other folk include a heavily scarred fire-breather, a woman who runs really fast, a guy who looks like a "Pirates of the Caribbean" extra (who manages to cross blades with both Yama and the Matrix), and a guy who would look at home in a Robin Hood film except he's armed with guns. And is fast enough to outdraw Hunter, not to mention skilled enough to shoot the gun out of her hand. Oh yeah, and his name's Pistol. At least that's what Dingo calls out because he apparently knows him--and who he's connected with.
And here comes the revelation: Dingo's old mentor John Oldcastle is the one calling the shots, and he's now known as "FALSTAFF, KING OF THIEVES!" (Am I the only one who hears this guy being voiced by BRIAN BLESSED?) Okay, how does he manage to get BOTH nubile young women hanging off him like that? And he does it while sitting in a throne, with a leg of meat in one hand and a tankard in the other. A more important question would be, how can I put myself in that position?
As I said, the artwork is incredible and rich in detail. I am a little sad at not seeing the cover for issue #5 (Dingo's wanted poster) in color, but that's a minor gripe.
Glad you liked it.
GARGOYLES
CLAN-BUILDING
ISSUE #12
PHOENIX
SPOILERS!!!!!!
Once again, excellent art from Ben Dunn that also remains consistent with the work of the previous two artists. I feel he sometimes puts in a few too many wrinkles/flecks/spots on Goliath and Brooklyn, and he has a tendency to draw some of the women's faces (especially Finella) in a style too similar to Japanese manga. Also, Maol Chalvim's face looks a bit...off to me on page 11 (it doesn't look as "long" as it should to me). Demona's, too, on occasion. But overall, a bang up job.
This chapter actually begins in 1997 with Goliath (in his "thinker" pose) ruminating on how a thousand years ago "the humans" thought they had crushed his kind completely, before we go back to Brooklyn in 997 thinking about how "a thousand years from now" Broadway and Angela are wondering if he'll come back. I like that bit of parallelism.
"Damn good question." I'll never get over the casual swearing (no matter how mild).
For the next few pages, we're treated to Brooklyn's interior monologue as he dishes out exposition. I love how he calls the Phoenix the "Time-Fowl." He would be the type to give a casual name to a magical entity.
I can't help but wonder what kind of sword Brooklyn's using. I've heard people call it a broadsword, but Brooklyn sometimes swings it two-handed. Wouldn't that make it a bastard sword?
Meanwhile, Valmont is gloating about having the Grimorum. "First of the Three Keys to Power...the pathway to Avalon...the fate of Scotland in my hands!" Okay, it's official: Valmont is Archmage Jr.
Well, Mary's clever enough to pull the wagon out from under him. Pity it wasn't enough to make him drop the book.
Back to Brooklyn, as he continues to think about what his actions mean for the gargoyles he brought out of hiding. After he and the gargoyle with the beaky nose lift and drop a couple of soldiers, Brook gets carried away and calls him "bro" and tries to give a high-five (or high-four, in this case). He's able to recover quickly enough, though (easy when you can say "bro" is short for "rookery brother"). I like the camaraderie he managed to pull off with the other garg here.
I also like how he refers to Demona as his "least favorite personal demon." Brooklyn's no fool, he knows Demona's planning a betrayal, but he's got to play along.
Let me take this moment to say that, even if she is the Demona from 997, I am REALLY glad to see Demona back again. I've really missed her. And she is VICIOUS in battle! Clawing people across the face seems to be a thing with her.
Brooklyn's response to Demona's compliment on his battle prowess ("I had a good teacher...Goliath") is wonderful. To me it both shows the respect he has for Goliath, and also acts as his way of sticking it to Demona. She, however, takes it as an opportunity to disparage Goliath's trust of humans, and state that the humans will turn on the gargoyles at the end of battle (you're one to talk, Ms. Backstabby McBackstab).
Meanwhile Constantine taunts Kenneth with talk of "superior numbers" and how he has no mercy (which he says with a vicious smile). Okay, Constantine belongs under the "Complete Monster" category of villain. You know the kind of villain you love to hate? Well, this isn't that kind of villain. This is the type of villain you just want to see die horribly. And Gillecomgain is putting himself in that very same category with his actions here. Sure he was a monster in "City of Stone," but somehow what we see of him here makes him even worse! He's trying to kill poor Bodhe (no wonder the kid grew into a coward) and he's doing it with glee! And Constantine is egging him on. "It is the Hunter's Moon, be a hunter for your king!" (I love the close-ups of both Constantine and Gillecomgain in those two panels--page 9). Findlaech makes an offhand remark to his adversary, Mail Brigti, to the effect of Gil seeming like Constantine's son.
Mail just ignores that, fights him and reveals...that he and Findlaech are half-brothers! I had remembered hearing about this (that Gillecomgain and Macbeth were actually related), but I wondered why Gil would be a peasant if that was the case. Now we get a story where this is explained. It also explains why Mail always acted so angry (bitterness, and he may have taken some of it out on Gil). Findlaech definitely comes across as having the moral high ground, having offered to share Ruaidri's (their father) inheritance, but Mail seems determined to have everything, even if it means siding with a Complete Monster.
And then Brother Valmont casts a spell. While Finella is trying to figure out the translation, Maol finally shows up. Turns out he's quicker to understand Latin, and orders the women to take cover while he threatens Valmont to make him call off the spell. Actually, this shot of Maol Chalvim could almost be considered a hero shot. Maol's a strange character. Not nice, by any stretch of the imagination, and I know he's going to turn on poor, good Kenneth eight years on, but somehow he's able to pull of these "hero" type moments. Unfortunately, the threat doesn't work on Valmont. And Finella figures out the spell just in time to take cover.
The spell? Arrows begin to rain down from the skies (what IS it with Brother Valmont and arrows?).
Demona's Second's Mate shields him from the arrows with her own body and dies (NOOOOO!)! And she's not the only one getting hit--there are several gargoyle silhouettes in the background, some pierced with the arrows (NOOOO! multiplied by however many died). But she is the one we've seen the most of, and the fact that she's the mate of a gargoyle we are (slightly) more familiar with, helps to personalize it as he grieves for her, poor guy. Brooklyn and even Demona are horrified by this turn of events.
To be fair, I kind of figured she'd die before the end of the comic arc simply because we never saw her in "City of Stone." Of course, we never saw the beasts or "True" there either, so....
At any rate, farewell, oh web-winged female. We hardly knew ye.
Poor Magus the horse gets hit, too (NO! NOT THE HORSE!).
Valmont takes this opportunity to gloat to Maol...and loses his right hand to Brooklyn for his troubles. I was actually quite impressed, Greg, that you managed to go this far. Granted, we don't see the actual stump of the hand, but it's still a pretty shocking turn of events. And of course, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving jerk.
Maol's line, "The arrows...they still reign." Love the wordplay there (something that wouldn't come across in spoken dialogue, sadly).
Is it just me, or does Finella REALLY want to do magic. Maybe she's just trying to do SOMETHING and not feel useless. At any rate, a real sorceress steps in: Demona. She manages to reverse the spell (and look cool while doing it), but she can't bring any who died back to life, of course.
And one last casualty of the arrows is revealed: Mail Brigti (NOO--wait, what am I saying, YEEEESS!). Findlaech may be a big enough man to cry over his treacherous half-brother, but as far as I'm concerned, after following Constantine, a man he KNOWS is evil, just for his own gain, Mail Brigti got his just deserts.
Unfortunately, the arrows didn't hit the selectively blind Gillecomgain, who chooses to not see the arrows and believe that his father died by Findlaech's hand. Findlaech warns Gil not to cross him, mostly because he doesn't want to see his brother's line end. Gil chooses to believe it's because Findlaech fears him. This whole confrontation, along with the struggle over Ruaidri's inheritance, adds a whole new level to the Hunter's assassination of Findlaech in "City of Stone." Damn. The only reason they don't fight now is because Constantine and Kenneth's fight passes right between them (even a rain of arrows doesn't stop these guys!).
Geez, Constantine just doesn't shut up! And this is the second time he's gone on about his "superior numbers." He promises to kill Maol Chalvim (while hinting at Maol's future turn) after he kills Kenneth's son Bodhe (well, he promises to gut Bodhe while calling him a very unflattering word). This is the last straw for Kenneth ("You shouldn't make Kenneth angry, Constantine...you wouldn't like him when he's angry"). Kenneth throws away his shield and begins attacking Constantine with both hands on his sword. He manages to unhorse Constantine and slay him. I love the look on both Constantine and Gillecomgain's face before Kenneth drives the blade home (where's your "superior numbers" now, Constantine?). In contrast to Constantine earlier, Kenneth is silent through all this part. It reminds me of a quote from Terry Pratchett's Discworld book "Men at Arms." To paraphrase it shortly, "If you are staring down a loaded crossbow, pray that the man on the other end is an evil man. Because an evil man will want you to know you are beaten, so he will talk and gloat and put off the moment of killing you for as long as possible the way a man might put off smoking a good cigar. A good man will just kill you without a word." Seems to fit this situation.
Well, Demona is in awe at having the Grimorum Arcanorum in her hands, while Brooklyn tries to figure out how to separate it from her. And then the Phoenix appears again. I wonder why Brooklyn focused on "Timedance" as his metaphor of choice, embellishing it with such gems as "chronal-boogie" and "temporal-tune." I can definitely understand his frustration at not being able to know how everything turned out (guess he'll be hitting the books when he gets back).
I loved Brooklyn's way of tricking Demona into giving him the Grimorum (playing on her desire for power, offering to hold the book while she got her half of the Gate). I can only wonder what Demona thought and did after he was gone. This whole thing also adds another level to "Temptation"--how much of this encounter did Demona remember through the years?
Well, Brook's ready to go, but so are Mary and Finella, much to his dismay.
But now we travel back to the present (well, 1997) and repeat the last few panels we saw of Broadway and Angela, and--THERE! In the last panel of page 20! In that panel, Angela has her collar (a bit more wrinkled than usual, but it's there), but in the panel before, and the panel after (first panel of page 21) she has no collar! Just let her keep the collar already!
Sorry.
Anyway, I liked Brooklyn's "Forever...forty years...forty seconds...however you keep time, the Dance is finally done." So cool. And yeah, I've already been spoiled so the "He's not alone" misdirection didn't work on me, but I can appreciate the effect it might have on readers not "in the know."
Well, we return to Goliath and his ruminations. But what's this? Lexington and Hudson have returned...and they brought Coldstone and Coldfire! Goliath is, needless to say, overjoyed by this turn of events. And then Broadway arrives to say that Brooklyn went on "a little trip" of his own and...well, Goliath has to see for himself.
Okay, this is IT! The part I've waited 12 years for. The first canon appearance of Brooklyn's mate, Katana. Not to mention his son, Nashville, and Fu-Dog, and how Brooklyn himself looks after his journey. I will admit, I had not expected him to so closely resemble his "Future Tense" self, but I'm not complaining (that armor just looks cool). And man is he armed to the teeth or WHAT? That Scottish sword (which he apparently kept with him throughout all 40 years), a Japanese Katana, a hand pistol (or blaster of some kind) and a Big Fricken' Futuristic Rifle. It also seems he lost his left eye somewhere along the way. Funny, that's the same eye Hudson lost sight in. You know, Broadway may be Hudson's biological son, but Brooklyn seems to me to take after the old garg a lot more than anyone else.
And Nashville (or Gnash, as he prefers to be called) is pretty much what I expected. I didn't know his coloring, and he looks a lot tougher than I would have thought (he's the physical equivalent of a 9-year-old, but then again, he's a time-traveling gargoyle), and I didn't expect him to be ARMED with a Japanese blade, but yeah, he's definitely Brooklyn's son. The clothes were a surprise, too--more modern than either of his parents, which makes sense I guess (so U.S.N. stands for "U.S. Navy?" Interesting).
And Fu-Dog...what can I say. He's like a green lion (and pretty darn cool looking).
But Katana...oh man, where do I begin? Well, let's start with the fact that she is the first major beaked female in the canon. I am ashamed to admit that in all those 12 years, I was never able to picture her beaked. I knew intellectually that it was a possibility, but for some reason I could never wrap my mind around it. Maybe it was the difficulty of trying to picture a beaked female that DIDN'T just look like Brooklyn with boobs.
But now Katana's been revealed and...the first word that popped into my mind to describe her was "cute." There's just something about her face that lends itself to that. Her beak is smaller than Brooklyn's, and maybe that helps. Her hair is gorgeous, and I love the style. But the real secret is in her eyes and expression. God, those eyes are perfectly shaped, and the look in them, coupled with her smile.... You said, Greg, that her and Brooklyn's relationship would have been like Sam and Diane, or Beatrice and Benedick, and I can just see ALL of that in the look on her face here.
As for the rest, I somehow always figured she'd be some shade of blue. I love the design of her clothes (I have looked extensively at Robby Bevard's design sheet for her). I'd really like to see her use those war fans at some point. I'm still surprised at her having one digit less per appendage (3 instead of 4). And then there's how she acts with her egg. When Angela asked to hold it, she seemed guarded. And she even takes the egg into battle with her! I can think of only one reason she would do that: she can protect that egg from ANYTHING the world can throw at her!
All this, and she didn't even get a single line in this issue (even Gnash got ONE). Damn. Well, you can't have everything. But I still can't wait for the next installment of the "GARGOYLES" comic, or for the "TIMEDANCER" spin off. I want to hear Katana speak (figuratively, of course). I want to see her fight. I want to see her and Brooklyn's relationship. I want to see her three-fingered hand intertwined with his four-fingered one. God, it's going to be a long wait.
"Egwardo?" Brooklyn, some things about you never change.
The group shot at the top of page 23 is kind of neat. I love all their reactions. Bronx and Fu-Dog are sniffing at each other, Angela's excited over the egg, Hudson's laughing, Lex seems to be chatting with Gnash, and Brooklyn...he just seems happy to be home again.
Then Elisa comes in and has a wonderful reaction to the overnight change in the clan's roster. Seriously, I can't help laughing everytime I imagine Salli Richardson saying that line.
Well, Jackal's busted Hyena and Wolf out of prison and they're wreaking Times Square, so the WHOLE FRICKEN' CLAN goes out to meat them. Lex is right, "The Pack'll never know what hit 'em."
This was a great issue, a great arc, and a great series. If I had any complaints about this particular issue it's that the last four pages felt very rushed. I mean it's like BOOM--Lex and Hudson--BOOM--Coldstone and Coldfire--BIG BOOM--Brooklyn and family--BOOM--Pack attacks--BOOM--attack Pack. I felt like I couldn't catch my breath! And this just makes me want another issue right NOW!
"Never the End..." eh? I'll drink to that, but like I said before "It's going to be a long wait." Still, here's to what we did get.
Thank you, Greg!
You're very welcome. Thanks for keeping the faith all these years.
GARGOYLES
CLAN-BUILDING
ISSUE #11
TYRANTS
Let's dive right in.
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!
Once more, I will begin with the art. David Hutchison does a good job, and is a decent successor to Greg Guler here. This is especially true in regards to consistency. This and the Halloween arc ("Invitation Only," "Masque," and "Bash") are the only two that have a completely different artist for each issue within the arc. In the case of the Halloween arc, the contrast in styles between David Hedgecock, Nir Paniry, and Karine Charlebois was quite jarring at times. Here, however, the difference in styles between Greg Guler, David Hutchison and Ben Dunn isn't as drastic. Consequently, these three issues seem to..."flow together" better, I guess. The transition is easier.
At any rate, the only complaint I have is that Hutchison sometimes draws Brooklyn's wings in a semi-bat shape when their edges should be smooth. Other than that though, kudos to Mr. Hutchison.
Well, we pick up where we left off: Brooklyn, along with Mary and Finella, makes for Castle Wyvern ("Home sweet decimated home"). Brooklyn seems to feel like hooking his wing-claws on his shoulders (like his "Future Tense" version did) for now instead of caping them like usual. Interesting.
Brooklyn mentions getting back to his century, confusing Mary, who figured the 10th century was his century. It's funny--Brooklyn lived most of his life in the 900's, and yet after two years in the 1990's he already considers that his century. Of course, the fact that his clan's there probably has something to do with it.
I remember hearing a while back that the Constantine we saw on "GARGOYLES" was King Constantine III who ruled from 995-997 A.D. (what year is Brooklyn stranded in again?), and he was known as Constantine the...bald. Yeah, I kind of figured the "GARGOYLES" crew either missed that, or decided he looked better with a wig. But NOW we see why he was called that in the "GARGOYLES" universe. He cut his hair to turn his head into "the proper canvas." Canvas for what I wonder.
Given his reaction to Gillecomgain's brown-nosing answer, Constantine seems to like yes-men and toadies.
Mail Brigti (and now we know his first name) arrives with news about the Grim's army assembling at Rathveramoen, and Constantine sends him off to wait at the head of his (Constantine's) own army. Mail calls Gil, but Constantine wants to keep Gil nearby (it was the toadying that impressed him, wasn't it?), and begins an in-depth study of Gil's scars. Mail hesitates, but leaves when curtly dismissed.
Constantine then takes a moment to gloat about wiping out "the male line of the Three Brothers" (there's that reference only "Ask Greg" readers will fully understand again) before asking Brother Valmont about the Magus and Princess Katharine. Valmont..."read the entrails of half the goats in Scotland?!" YUCK!! EW! Okay, my appetite's gone. Anyway, short version, they're both out of Scotland, Tom's out of Scotland as well, but the Grimorum is still around and Valmont must get it.
"Okay, this is just freaky." Yeah, seeing your sleeping form would engender that reaction. But then Brooklyn moves among the remains of his massacred clan while thinking to himself how "freaky" is a nice, safe adjective in comparison to "horrific, traumatizing, or soul-killing." This is probably just as bad as living that night after the Massacre all over again. I like his description of it feeling like his heart is "turning to stone and Hakon is taking a mace to it."
He also finds a scabbard for his new sword. Interesting. I wonder what prompted him to keep the sword in the first place. He's been going for years without a weapon and now he decides to keep the first sword he grabs? Then again, with the King's army against you, a sword might come in handy.
Well, Mary asks after Tom, and Brooklyn starts to explain about Tom being married. This floors Mary who is still thinking of Tom as the little boy she left two years ago. Brooklyn leaps away (awkward transition that, since we don't see him actually leaving Mary in that panel), and resolves to keep his "big beak shut" just in case. Probably wise, things will be simpler that way.
I rather enjoy Brooklyn's annoyance at stone sleep (and wondering how Elisa can stand it). And we finally have a canon mention of the Humility Spell...but no explanation. Yes, we who have read "Ask Greg" and the GargWiki know the story, but for those who have only watched the series and read the comic, I wonder if this mention (along with the one about the "Three Brothers" and the later one about the Wind Ceremony) will whet their appetite for more stories and for the background on these references.
Given that Brooklyn's most likely stuck in the 10th century now without the Gate, he seems quite calm about it. No whining, no rage, just a sigh and "I guess this IS my century again, after all." Man, Brook's made of some pretty stern stuff. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be that calm.
And he calls Demona a witch. Oh, come on Brooklyn! Just replace the "w" with a "b" and be done with it. We all know you want to!
Demona arrives at a cave and announces to the gargs there the death of the Sruighlea cell (damn, I do not know how the hell that name is pronounced). Okay, so Demona's clan is split into separate cells. I did not know that (in fact, I've always wondered why the number of gargoyles Demona led in "City of Stone" seemed to change, and now I finally know). This particular cell she leads is full of familiar faces, though. There's her Second, and apparently his Mate (I know she's called something else in the scripts, but since she isn't referred to as that by the characters, I'm just going to call her Second's Mate). Also a new young gargoyle face and two beasts, one of whom looks like Bronx except for coloring, and one of whom is colored like Bronx. Oh, and the new young one has Hudson's skin tone and white hair and...okay, yes she's Hudson's biological daughter (True), and the beasts are obviously Bronx's biological parents. I wonder why this female beast's eyes glow red but Boudicca's didn't?
At any rate, "True" says they should hold a Wind Ceremony for the fallen (the first canon mention of that, too), but Demona once again shows that vengeance trumps all other concerns for her (save her own survival, of course). Bitch.
Maol Chalvim is his usual self as he spells out to Kenneth just why they can't count on gargoyle support...and then one shows up in their camp, carted in by Mary and Finella. I must admit, I hadn't realized Maol might hold some animosity towards Finella, but it makes perfect sense.
I wish I could have seen the first meeting between Brooklyn, Kenneth, Maol and Finlaech, but I guess something had to be sacrificed for page space.
Seeing Brooklyn pointing at the map and telling Kenneth to engage Constantine's forces at Rathveramoen while he (Brooklyn) brings reinforcements seems to cement the image of Brooklyn as strategist. Brook also seems intelligent enough to realize that he needs Demona's help and must put his own personal feelings aside (our boy is FINALLY growing up in that area!).
Brooklyn's little "break the fourth wall" bit in the last panel of page 13 seems to have provoked a mix of reactions. I've read a few people who seemed to think it was Greg's way of directing an "educational" message directly at them, and hating it just for that. Me? I find it a hilarious character moment of Brooklyn joking around. I mean, heck, *I* sometimes address a non-existent audience! It can lighten up a strange situation and make it bearable.
I liked the shots of Brooklyn discovering the massacred cell, and him hiding in a tree during the day. And then he encounters Demona...and immediately attacks her. Demona's too shocked by the fact that he's someone from Wyvern (still love the "By the Dragon" exclamation) to be too upset about this. Brooklyn tries to regain his composure, and almost loses it again just thinking about her betrayal. Still, they manage to keep from splatting and Demona...is smiling? Wow, she really looks happy to see an old clan-mate alive again. She mentions her new clan and asks how Brooklyn survived and if any others did. Brook, clearly uncomfortable at having to make nice, has to tell a half truth--omitting himself being cursed as well (and almost calling Hudson by name). Demona sees red (literally) at hearing about the sleep spell, until Brooklyn undercuts it by pointing out she managed to escape both fates and now Demona has to stammer an explanation. In the end, Brooklyn brushes it all aside for the greater good.
Wow, no sorcerers for Kenneth's side? Finella decides she'll try the book herself just because she knows Latin. Mary points out the danger, and Finella points out that they're already in danger. I love the little "Magus--the man, not the horse" bit.
Constantine has the messenger killed. And he does it for no reason, it would seem, other than he just likes being able to. Douche.
Mail Brigti seems saddened by that action, too. If that's the case, why does he stick with Constantine anyway (yeah, I know the answer will come in the next issue, and if anything shows how much of a sell-out Mail really is)? Gillecomgain on the other hand, seems to approve of Constantine's behavior (look at that smile).
And now we see Constantine's war-paint. The roots of the Hunter's mask. In addition to the three red slashes across black on the front, he has the same design on the back along with two false eyes (doubtless to confuse and unnerve foes in the heat of battle). I think Gil likes the new look. I recall, Greg, you saying at the Gathering that this was a way to explain how people wouldn't immediately conclude that Gillecomgain was the Hunter based on the design of the mask in "City of Stone." Whatever the reason, it's a striking visual.
The armies converge and Findlaech notes there are fewer Irish (Constantine's soldiers) than he thought. Yeah, Fin, that's because the rest are hiding in the forest waiting to outflank you! There's some great art here for the battle, especially in regards to the light of the setting sun. In the last panel of page 21, I think I can see winged shapes in the sky behind the fighting Constantine and Kenneth. Three guesses what they are (and the first two don't count).
Sure enough come the next page and we get an excellent two-page spread of the gargoyles arriving into battle. Second's Mate appears to have the same wing structure as Lexington--COOL! The striking visual of the gargoyles attacking is almost enough to make one forget there's fighting on the ground, too. Gil knocks Bodhe off his horse, Mail and Finlaech are heading towards one another, and Constantine and Kenneth are still fighting. I wonder where Maol is in all of this?
The last page brings us parallel panels of simultaneous events again. Demona's Second apparently likes a good battle, and is glad they followed the "gargoyle of the sword" (looks like Brooklyn just picked up a new name). Demona (who casually BREAKS A MAN'S NECK), is already planning to turn on the Grim after the battle is won (wow, Demona's planning betrayal, what a surprise). Meanwhile, Finella is still intent on learning a spell, and doesn't realize until too late that all her guards have been killed by the flaming arrows of Brother Valmont, who snatches the Grimorum and reveals his intention to turn on HIS boss, Constantine. And then both he and Demona share the EXACT same thought at the EXACT same time: conquering Scotland! (Yeah, they haven't quite graduated to "take over the world" yet.)
Damn cliffhanger! Then again, I didn't have to wait two months for the conclusion to this story....
There are certain advantages to our publishing pattern, huh?
GARGOYLES
CLAN-BUILDING
ISSUE #10
THE GATE
Yes! Finally! The "TIMEDANCER" story! A three-comic arc focusing on my favorite "GARGOYLES" character! I have been looking forward to this for (literally) YEARS. And it did not disappoint. Okay, maybe there are a few nitpicks here or there, but who cares? It still rocks! So let's start with the first part.
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all, I must address the art. Greg Guler did a fantastic job here. I mean, good God, this is probably the best art I've seen throughout the entire "Clan-Building" comic run (Karine, I love you and your work on "Bash" but this...wow, just...wow). I mean, the issue even starts out with what could only be called a "hero shot" of Brooklyn, and it kicks ass! The only nit is that in the first panel it looks like Brooklyn has the "one-claw" style wings instead of his normal ones. Well, maybe the other two claws are hidden. Regardless, it's still great!
Anyway, Brooklyn seems to be enjoying a glide out by himself...and then Broadway and Angela show up. And they're holding hands (and just what had they been doing to make their eyes glow like that?). Brook is not happy (I love his expression here). Broadway remarks how dull it's been with Lex and Hudson off in London (really, Broadway? Is spending "quality alone time" with Angela THAT boring?). He wishes they'd come back, to which Brooklyn responds "Yeah, that's one of my wishes...". Wow, for being the two most intuitive members of the clan, Broadway and Angela are REALLY blind to Brooklyn here. I mean, it's like (to borrow from "The Princess Bride") they're giving him a nice paper-cut and pouring lemon juice on it--and they don't even realize they're doing it!
Actually, Brooklyn's kind of interesting here. He seems to bottle most of his feelings up around them. I mean, it's like he's trying not to make a big deal about his disappointment over not "getting the girl" and just trying to avoid being constantly reminded of it, but all the body language and subtle hints in the world aren't piercing through the little "love bubble." I can only wonder what this little powder keg might have become had he not gone on his little Dance. But I'll get to that in a minute.
A little art tangent here: Angela's collar. Now, we've seen Angela's new two-piece since the start of the comics, but one thing that's always been inconsistent about it is the presence or absence of a high collar. Well, there's also the number of threads covering the, um..."low cut" area on the chest. Whenever Greg Guler draws Angela, whether on the covers, or right here in his own issue, he draws her with the collar, and only two threads over the low cut area. The ONLY OTHER artist who did that is Gordon Purcell (in Issue #6 "Reunion" for the "present" scenes). Every other artist who drew her in her "normal" outfit draws her top without the collar and with a LOT more threads. This is something that's always bugged me. It's a new outfit for her, designed by Greg Guler (I believe), so why not follow his design all the way? Why do so many make her new two-piece look like her original one-piece with just a section missing. Maybe I wouldn't care so much except I LIKE that collar. I like the distinctive look it gives her. And yes, I admit, I would not say "no" to less threads obscuring the low-cut area. ;-)
Okay, there, I've said all I need to say about that. Sorry for the digression--on with the comic.
The Phoenix Gate arrives, bouncing off one of the letters in the sign before coming to rest on the rooftop. Angela is really concerned about this development, while Brooklyn seems rather calm (and even flippant). Maybe he's just glad for the distraction from the happy couple. I like the glow of the Gate reflecting off Brooklyn's eyes.
Brooklyn reaches for the Gate (not unreasonable, from his POV--you don't want to leave something like that lying around), and...it disintegrates. Ummm, okay, in the 12 years I'd known about "TIMEDANCER" I never thought that the Gate would do this. First disintegrate, and then spit out a huge flamin' Phoenix that would swallow Brooklyn whole and vanish! I especially like that first panel on page 6--with the Phoenix's eyes looming over the three gargoyles. Maybe it's because he's closest to center, but Brooklyn does seem to be the focus of that gaze (no surprise there).
And now we begin the real meat of this tale--Brooklyn's adventures in the past. I easily recognized Constantine and Gillcomgain. Gil's father I didn't recognize until Gil referred to him as such, and a few pages later we finally get a name for him, Brigti. Anyway, poor Brook lands right in front of this rather hostile audience. Gil immediately calls him "demon" and Constantine (for reasons soon to become apparent) gives the order to "kill it." Brigti's reaction is the odd one out, if only because it's so calm and matter of fact. I wonder if Brigti sees gargoyles as something a person doesn't need to kick up much of a fuss about, at least no more so than any wild animal. This makes his reaction an interesting contrast to Constantine and Gil's rather vehement ones.
Young Gil trying to take out a surprised Brooklyn with a knife=FAIL! Constantine trying to take out Brooklyn with his HORSE=a considerably more dignified FAIL. That guy in green casting a fire arrow spell with no magic book or other noticeable conduit and getting Brooklyn in the leg=OUCH! Actually, overall, I'm impressed by how Brooklyn handles himself throughout this whole thing. He doesn't panic, keeps his head (even manages to crack a few smart remarks), correctly figures the place and century he landed in, is able to get enough height to glide somehow (it looked like a hilly bit of land, I guess) and even manages to take a FIRE ARROW in the leg and keep going (much to Constantine's displeasure). Go Brooklyn!
Anyway, we learn more about what Constantine is doing out at this hour--posting "Wanted" posters for the Magus, Tom, Mary and Finella. It would also seem that he's also hunting down gargoyles because of past history (and for those of us who have read the "Three Brothers" story, this is an added bit of icing on the cake). Oh, and the wizard in the green cloak is called Brother Valmont...and maybe it's the bald head but he looks strangely similar to someone from the previous chapter....
And just what is this "Grim" that is amassing an army?
As soon as I saw that feminine, blue-sleeved hand rip off that poster, I knew Filella and Mary had arrived. Constantine, that jerk, has been doing a bit of spin-doctoring it would seem. Among other things, the poster accuses Finella of "turning to sin and Satan" (even with the violence and minor swears the comics have been able to get away with, that line surprised me) in grief over the loss of her son.
MARY: You had a son?
FINELLA: I--NO!
Okay, that line and the look on her face leave me to wonder if she was telling the truth there.
To get past the Porter, Mary introduces Finella as the Lady...Fiona (the name of *another* "GARGOYLES" character voiced by Sheena Easton). Meanwhile, Brooklyn lands nearby and pulls out the arrow. Wow, hardcore. The expression of pain on his face is great, as is the surprise and lighting when the two halves of the arrow dissolve into flames (he should be thankful they didn't do that while he was holding one in his mouth).
Well, gold is enough to get the past the Porter, but not the Guardsman, who pulls off the poster...what, wait a minute! Didn't Finella already tear it off? Yeah, there she is holding it, and now the Guardsman's holding one and...THERE'S ANOTHER ON THE DOOR?! Okay, Finella looks about as surprised as I feel. Does the poster have some sort of magic spell on it that creates an exact copy if it is torn off?
Things go south very fast for our heroines. The jerk Guardsman can apparently follow orders enough to want them alive, but no one else in the town seems to agree. Finella tries to bluff her way out with the Grimorum (LOVE that last panel on page 15), but the Guardsman is not as easily cowed as the townspeople. Until Brooklyn arrives, that is. Brook even pulls a Goliath and takes the sword in his had by the blade (leaving a fair amount of blood in the process). And then he pulls a Hudson by taking that sword and keeping it with him. I loved his lines here (especially, "You wait here for my clan to come eat your brains..." and "Now that I've set back human-gargoyle relations for the next millennium").
"RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!" You've just been waiting to put that Monty Python bit in, haven't you, Greg?
One art nit: It would seem the top part of a word bubble is floating just above the bottom of panel 6 on page 16. Oh, well.
I love Finella's expressions first after Brook appears and then after he turns to stone. I'd guess this is the first time she's been this close to a gargoyle in her life. She seems concerned about the wound on his hand though (YIKES, yeah, you wouldn't have been able to show that much on the TV show). Mary seems to wear a concerned expression, too in the final frame of page 17.
Mary named the horse "Magus?" Heh. That's kind of cool.
And now we meet "The Grim"--jolly Kenneth (soon to be King Kenneth III), cousin of Maol Chalvim and Princess Katharine. We see Maol, too (as gregarious as ever), and surprisingly enough, a younger Findlaech. Oh, and Bodhe as a boy, ready to follow his father into battle (or so he says). I got the Shakespeare reference (either Kenneth or Shakespeare must have been psychic), and the irony about Ken being called "The Grim" instead of Maol. After some exposition on how the war against Constantine goes, Kenneth brings up gargoyles ("the solution of our fathers") and we cut to a group of gargoyles sleeping in a cave...right before they fall to the mace. Gillecomgain, not surprisingly, is in a frenzy, screaming at them to "DIE" as he smashes their unconscious forms to rubble. He is so into this, it impresses even Constantine (who had smashed the first one with a smile on his face). And unless I miss my guess, it unnerves Brigti somewhat.
Why would they put a poster there? Do they really expect people to stop by that cave? Or is it for any other gargoyles that might happen along?
Loved Brook's wake up (and the detail of stone flakes on Mary's hood a few frames later). Brook and Mary recognize each other from Wyvern and exchange names (and I wonder if Brook had already heard about Finella from Goliath or Angela retelling Tom's story). Brook's response to all this? "Oh, this is too cool!" Wow...that would not have been my response. I mean, seriously, Brooklyn has adapted to this situation admirably fast. Maybe that's because he HAS seen "Star Trek" and "Quantum Leap" (loved those references, by the way). At any rate, he certainly is handling himself well, all things considered.
"The year of our Lord Nine Hundred and Ninety-Seven." I don't know why, but I love that Finella stated the year that way. Brooklyn figures that the only way he'll get back is with the Phoenix Gate, and because he knows his "997 Clan History" he knows that half the Gate is with Goliath and the other half with...
...Demona, in a FANTASTIC final image!
Here's to the first part of a great Brooklyn story!
I'm glad you like it!!
Well I finally got my copy of Clan Building 2 last week; it was weird, even though I'd been waiting MONTHS to read this, when I had the book in my hands I wasn't in that much of a rush to read it. Maybe subconciously I was registering that this would be the last few stories of Gargoyles that I would read for some time. :(
Anyway, I have to say when I did read it I loved it, couldn't put it down.
Just one question (for now at least):
As of 1994 (or "Awakening part 4") did Demona remember her encounter with "the gargoyle of the sword" back in 997? If so, how did she reconcile it with Brooklyn waking up in 1994 after being put under the sleep spell?
I have to say, I loved the 997 arc btw; thought it was brilliant. Especially loved the end pages of #12; finally we get to see Katana, Nashville (or Gnash as he likes to call himself) and Fu-Dog (& not to mention Egwardo) after all these years.
It was also a surprise seeing Coldstone and Coldfire rejoin the clan.
On the whole loved the book; here's hoping for more soon.
Yes, she remembered. She must have put SOME of it together. And it may be why she chose Brooklyn in "Temptation".
..sorry.. i know this isn't a question. just wanted to hopefully tell Greg he's an awesome storyteller and a great human being.. the funny thing is at least 50% of the cartoons i grew up with and loved had something to do with him, if not written, voice directed, etc. by him. he was nearly everything in my childhood that made it great to watch cartoons(with very few exceptions). I hope this gets to him....and..well.... Greg, you're an awesome Human Being.
P.S. Todd, you're a great guy too, even if this never gets to Greg,,,,, heh.... there should be a "Thank Greg for being so awesome" area too i guess.
Sincerely, Mike Greenwood
P.P.S. I'm 23...and still love classic cartoons cause of you ;) and i probably always will. thanks, Greg!
P.P.P.S. i LOVE the "you DID check the archives first, right?" bit ;)
Thanks, Michael.
==== SPOILERS!!!!!============SPOILERS!!!!!========= SPOILERS!!!!!========
ELEVEN: TYRANTS
Poor Brooklyn, having to walk through the remains of his entire clan. The TV show never seemed to pay any attention to the psychological trauma and grief that the survivors must have felt, so it is good to see it addressed here. Depressing and tragic, of course, but it had to be mentioned. If only he'd had time to cremate them all before he left.
I'm glad that Mary is being more friendly towards Brooklyn than when last they met. Avalon implied that her attitudes had changed after the Massacre, but it's still good to see it. And I hope she can be reunited with Tom someday.
Mary: "Married?! My little Tom?!"
Just wait till she finds out that he eloped instead of having a proper Christian wedding... I don't think that sort of thing was accepted in the Tenth Century. Not that I mind, but she might have a fit.
Mary and Finella named their mare after the Magus?
How can Maol Chalvim blame Finella for Kenneth's death? And how can she blame herself? It's obvious to anybody who knows how he died, that she isn't to blame. Unless there's a lot more to the story than what I saw in Avalon.
I do not like it when Brooklyn breaks the fourth wall. This is something I have never liked in fiction.
Brooklyn has to learn fast how to control his temper around Demona. He has every right to confront her for what she did to their clan. But if he did that, she would never help him against Constantine.
I still wonder how Brooklyn decided so quickly that he had to protect Mary, Finella, and the Grimorum, and how he decided he had to help defeat Constantine. He probably still thought that Xanatos learned about their clan by reading the Grimorum... maybe that's it.
Constantine's messenger/herald man is noticeably upset when Kenneth's herald is murdered. Constantine on the other hand just displays his lack of redeeming features yet again.
His facepaint is creepy! Eyes on the back of his head... and what made him want to put Gillecomgain's scars on his face? Obviously this is what inspired the Hunter mask, but how did it get into Constantine's head?
I'm surprised to see Bodhe ride to battle at that age. I know kids were expected to grow up fast in ancient times, but he looks so young.
And Brother Valmont turns out to be another power-hungry mage bent on conquering Scotland. This is... familiar. And nothing will come of it unless more books can ever be published.
More later...
==== SPOILERS!!!!!============SPOILERS!!!!!========= SPOILERS!!!!!========
Again, Brooklyn knows all about Mary, Finella and the Grimorum from Goliath and Elisa, who heard the story from Tom, Katharine and the Magus.
==== SPOILERS!!!!!============SPOILERS!!!!!========= SPOILERS!!!!!========
TEN: THE GATE
"Yes, Angela, I know it's dangerous. Why do you think I want to play w-- I mean, protect it?"
Whoa, that Phoenix is huge! Is there a living creature inside the Phoenix Gate? Or is it simply an emanation from the magic that only looks alive? The two-page spread is amazing.
Hilarious lines:
"I come in peace!"
"What do we do?! What do we do!?" (cue panic)
"...wait for my clan to come eat your brains..."
"Run away! Run away!" (shades of Monty Python)
"...why don't you get in the cart before they realize my clan's not coming.... and I don't eat brains." ROFL
"Badly then?" "Aye."
Saeth ... that's one powerful spell. One word to create a very dangerous weapon that leaves no trace, except for the wounds. And how can Brookly stand, or walk, after that?
Why is the wanted poster written in Elvish?! Well, maybe medieval Scottish writing just looked that way. But it looks just like Tolkien's Elvish.
Several allusions throughout whole arc to Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers. I sure hope that it or Dark Ages can be published some day.
Constantine blames Finella for murdering the king... thus the official history is written. But did Kenneth II actually kill her son? Did she actually have more part in Kenneth's death than what was shown in Avalon?
Brooklyn comes to a decision to help the women surprisingly quickly, just as soon as he recognizes the Grimorum. This, and his reference to the Spell of Humility, make me think that his trip to medieval Scotland is not his first time-trip, only one taken out from the middle. But other parts of the arc make me think that it must be his first trip. Either way, he has his wits about him. But how does he know the Grimorum will be so important? Because he still believes that Xanatos read the Magus' story from it?
There's unfortunately an art error on the page with the brain-eating comments. Part of a speech balloon from the last panel is showing up in the panel above it as a white area.
I'm surprised to see Bodhe show up as a child. In City of Stone he looks to be about Findlaech's age. But since Kenneth III is clearly about the same age as his cousin, Bodhe is still a small child.
I am happy to see and examine the new gargoyle and beast models in this whole arc. And it is also wonderful to see so many of them together. Of course it is terribly tragic to see any pre-modern clan, because I know they will all die. It is especially horrible with that little girl in #11. And that green, beaked fellow looks like just a kid, too.
I'm slightly confused by the red-eyed beast. Boudicca's eyes glow white.
Gillecomgain's joy as he murders gargoyles... it is repulsive.
And there's a great full-page art of Demona.
Overall, I enjoyed the Timedancer arc the most, out of the 12 issues. That's no surprise considering that City of Stone, Awakening, and Avalon are some of my favorite episodes. I just enjoy the medieval flashbacks a lot. I suspect that if Dark Ages was ever written, it would be my favorite spin-off.
==== SPOILERS!!!!!============SPOILERS!!!!!========= SPOILERS!!!!!========
This is Brooklyn's first stop on his TimeDance. But of course he knew the Grimorum was important. Remember "Temptation". And he knew from Goliath, the role it played on Avalon later...
TRADE PAPERBACK
==== SPOILERS!!!!!============SPOILERS!!!!!========= SPOILERS!!!!!========
FINALLY the book was published. I had concluded that the book was cancelled. I'm still waiting for Bad Guys. Very glad that I finally have Volume Two. It is still sinking in.
Anyway, I like the book a lot, especially the medieval flashbacks. And the art has been for the most part consistent and nicely done. I actually read through all twelve issues of Clan-Building, although it took me until 3 am. That wasn't so smart. Oh well. Thank you for writing the new Gargoyles stories and jumping through hoops to get somebody to publish them.
Nothing eloquent from me, just scattered thoughts from the single issues as I re-read them:
I find it interesting that Lexington tells Alex to call him by his name. "Doggie" could be responded to in any number of ways, such as "I'm a gargoyle." But Lex is insisting on his name. Quite a contrast to Awakening.
The non-chronological format of the Stone of Destiny arc (and to a lesser extent Bad Guys, Timedancer, and Reunion) is very confusing, though of course now I know why 7-9 are written this way. But I still find it confusing, especially with the different time-zones, and the +# stuff which I do not get. I did not understand the button-pressing, nor the stone-switching, until I read the ramble. I'm still not sure what happened on the bridge.
Gathellus and Scota's wardrobe. I never noticed it before, but now this irritates me. Gathelus (Gathelos?) is an ancient Greek, and Scota is an ancient Egyptian. He and his men should be wearing tunics, chitons, or kilts. She should have a nearly shaved head, and a tripartite wig (at least at first -- after wandering around for years, maybe she couldn't replace her wigs after a while).
Vinnie: "Can you believe it? I'm going to Japan!"
Random passenger: "So is everybody on this plane, genius!"
I can hear most of the TV characters' voices in my head, but I can't get a good voice in my head for most of the new ones.
I want Constance to have an alto English accent, but in my head she always sounds like Fleance. Eugh.
I imagine doing research on legends and myths about himself feels pretty weird for King Arthur. Good thing Avalon made him literate in English (and prevented him from speaking with an incomprehensibly thick accent, too.)
NINE: ROCK OF AGES
Nice cover! I like Griff.
I am confused what King Arthur is apologizing to the Westminster guards for.
"Define this." I laughed out loud. Great line to put in Coldstone's mouth! Was it a deliberate allusion to Warf's "Assimilate this." in the movie with the Borg? Either way, it's hilarious!
Ms. Three must be Blanchefleur (sp?). Interesting that she can get into Castle Carbonek at will, without a problem.
Creepy Borg-Picard-Guy is Creepy! This is Duval. And Peredur fab Ragnal is Percival. I'm quite surprised that they are not the same character, as I had expected. Now I wonder who Duval is. In the words of Fox: "...who is this guy?"
I like that you used Peredur's Welsh name, instead of the French one. Peredur makes more sense than Percival for an ancient Brython. And it's interesting to see it confirmed that he is the son of Ragnal, which presumably makes Gawain his father. Now I wonder if he grew up in obscurity in the woods (like in R.L. Greene) and if so, what could have caused his parents to break up. I would like to learn more about what happened in the Gargoyles universe. In fact, I would probably enjoy just reading a graphic novel about the Gargoyles version of the King Arthur legends, and how the gargoyles and Third Race participated in the stories. Same for the Greek myths.
Also, I'm relieved that Peredur is not a creepy, ill-tempered cyborg. It's sad enough that a guy like Peredur has stooped to supervising the Illuminati's horrible activities, not to mention their eventual allying with the Space-Spawn. I am surprised that he looks so young and fit.
Macbeth's breaking the Stone, and its reaction, is pretty funny. He actually did a fairly poor job gluing it, there's crud oozing out of the crack.
From there it just gets bizarre. This Stone, and a bunch of other sacred and/or magical stones around the world, are temporary or shared vessels for some vast, sapient force of destiny? It even talks to Xanatos and King Arthur simultaneously, from two different stones. Once you suggested that it might be either a magic talisman or a Child of Oberon, but now I feel like it must not, cannot, be either of these. I want to know what it is! And also, why the Holy Grail can talk!
The burden of Sisyphus... he's dead and Tartaros, so isn't his rock a piece of ghostly ectoplasm, or something?
Peredur has expected King Arthur to arrive in 200 years. No surprise that that was his original intended "destination" -- a time when Earth will be conquered and bereft of all its political leaders. But how did Peredur know this? And if this was planned in advanced by some force of destiny, instead of being a hypothetical "What if?", does that mean the Space-Spawn invasion is, within the Garg-universe, an unpreventable event that's fated to happen? That would imply the aliens lack free will, which I doubt.
Also, what is Blanchefleur wearing? Her pants are falling down!
Coldsteel really is a jerk.
Why do I get the feeling Xanatos didn't actually disable that tracking device?
More later...
==== SPOILERS!!!!!============SPOILERS!!!!!========= SPOILERS!!!!!========
"I am confused what King Arthur is apologizing to the Westminster guards for."
For knocking them out.
At long last, I have Clan-Building Volume Two in my hands! Like most fans, I have been dreaming of this for a full year. To be able to have it in hand and read it is delightful beyond words. So Iâll just start on my review then, shall I?
SPOILERS FOR CLAN-BUILDING VOLUME TWO
PLEASE DONâT READ IF YOU DONâT WANT SPOILERS
Chapter Nine: Rock of Ages
Just a few months before CB2 came out, I got the chance to spend three weeks in England and Ireland and a single day I Scotland. On that day, I got to tour Edinburgh Castle and view the Treasures of the Crown, including the Stone of Destiny. I got a little giddy seeing the Stone in Scotland because I could imagine the battle between gargoyles and robots being fought over it the night before its transportation. Sadly, I wasnât allowed to take a picture; I could only gawk for a moment before getting shooed down the line with the other tourists. So itâs a pleasure to have seen the Stone of Destiny before reading the conclusion of this arc. (On the same trip, I visited and Eskimo-kissed the Blarney Stone in Ireland; however, I had no idea until reading CB2 that one of the theories of the Blarney Stoneâs origin was from the Stone of Destiny. Quite exciting I visited the pieces from the same Stone twice :D)
We got to see the conclusion of the big air battle from the last issue. I liked the glance back to Tibet and seeing the two monks from âReunionâ. I think its fitting that Coldstone returned to them to show he had overcome his inner turmoil.
As always, it is a pleasure to see what new way the Coyote Robot will bite it next. And I love the free will chit-chat between Coldsteel and Coyote.
I will admit that I was one of the readers who was confused about who had the ârealâ Stone of Destiny by the end of it: Xanatos, the Illuminati, or Scotland? But, with the help of your Ramble and by rereading it a few times, I came to understand the fact that all the pieces of the Stone (whatever their name and location) are considered to be part of the Stone of Destiny. I am guessing that the Spirit of Destiny (I believe thatâs what itâs called on GargWiki) can jump between the fragments as it sees fit. Hence being unable to be possessed by any one mortal.
Favorite part of the whole arc: the greetings exchanged between the Stone of Destiny and the Holy Grail. I think itâs simple and just so totally perfect that these two artifacts of immense power say, âHey.â Its beautiful. I may cry.
And Shari ends things right where they began. That is some fine storytelling on her part. I like her as a storyteller.
All in all, I thought it was a fantastic conclusion to the Stone Arc. Iâll admit, the non-linear storytelling took some getting used to but I was hooked by the end of it. My only disappointment is that we donât know why the London Clan doesnât have any gargoyle beasts, which we are all curious to know because it seems like there is more of a story behind it than simply âThey all died outâ. Oh well, gotta save some mystery for when the Gargoyle Graphic Novels get picked up, right? Well done, well done!
Thanks.
Dear Greg,
I just got my copy of Volume 2 and read it. I am thoroughly impressed with your still-amazing storytelling. The Stone left me slightly confused, but I think I understand what the point was; the stone may take many shapes and names, but it will always be the stone. I like that the stone and the grail can talk to eachother, that was just funny (That and Brooklyn's PSA panel). And I absolutely loved, I repeat, LOVED finally seeing Katana and Gnash. The artists all get my deepest compliments and gratitude fro bringing form to some great characters. I really hope you can get the licenses approved and tell the rest of Brooklyn's story. This was amazing, and I hope I can talk more people into reading such great work.
Thanks. Appreciate the kind words.
And now, the final story, "Phoenix".
* SPOILERS FOLLOW*
Great opening, with Goliath brooding at Castle Wyvern in his "Thinker" position.
A fine epic battle scene (looks more 13th century than 10th, but then, so did the medieval portions of "Awakening").
Nice touch with Brooklyn's "Bro" slip.
Bodhe's already timid, even as a kid.
Whoa! Constantine crying out about the Hunter's Moon! Gargoyle-haters using that moon goes back further than I'd thought.
I see you've found a way to reconcile Gillecomgain's historical parentage with his depiction in the animated series as a peasant. Good solution.
Valmont's spell of fiery arrows was another unsettling moment - especially since we got to know at least one of its casualties (Magus the horse), and see the grief of Demona's second as he loses his mate to the enchanted shafts.
I like Demona's line "The spell? Perhaps. Its consequences... never". Very true to the spirit of "Gargoyles".
Constantine clearly foresees Maol Chalvim's future treachery.
So now we get to meet Katana, Nashville, and Fu-Dog at last. (And the egg - I wonder whether "Egwardo" will turn out to be another case where canon replaces the old canon-in-training expectations.) And we know what Brooklyn's injury is. (As I said, missing eyes seem to be turning up a lot in the Gargoyles Universe.)
I wonder whether the Pack's attack was meant as a set-up for #13 - had there been one - or a "hero's work is never done" moment. But it was a great way to end the story, as the expanded clan heads off into battle....
And so "Clan-Building" comes to an end. Thank you very much, Greg, for these new stories.
* SPOILERS END *
Thanks to all of you guys for keeping the flame alive and giving me the CHANCE to tell these stories.
The thing is... Clan-Building was really only about the equivalent of five episodes (give or take). I'm not close to being done telling all the stories I have to tell.
My review for #11, "Tyrants".
* SPOILERS *
I'd long had a vision of Brooklyn, during his Timedancing, confronting his stone self at Castle Wyvern - so I was amused to see that happen here, and on the "cover page".
I'd read since "Avalon Part One" aired about Constantine's nickname being "the Bald", and got a kick out of seeing you incorporate that here.
I liked Constantine's "Three Brothers" line, alluding to your four-parter here.
Another priceless moment: Brooklyn accidentally blabbing about Tom's future to Mary.
Just his luck: the Phoenix Gate trapped inside the stone pouch. And now the Humility Spell's name becomes canon, rather than canon-in-training. Followed by the Wind Ceremony.
Demona's second-in-command from "City of Stone" shows up in her clan. Nice touch.
I liked Brooklyn's "Hit those books" moment - very funny, and such good advice. And I'm certain you've encouraged your readers to study up on 10th century Scottish history with this story.
And Brooklyn has to make an alliance with his old enemy Demona (who hasn't even done the thing he'll hate her for yet). I liked his slip about Hudson's name. (Also Demona frantically lying about her whereabouts during the Massacre.)
Another great cliff-hanger, with a double threat from Demona and Valmont.
* SPOILERS END *
Brooklyn was fun for me here. I was worried I was almost making him too competent... not thrown ENOUGH by what had happened. But it just seemed right, that he'd take things as they came...
My review for "The Gate".
* SPOILERS FOLLOW *
I'd been expecting Brooklyn's Timedancing to be the next story after the Stone of Destiny one. For one thing, its consequences (which turned out to be canon, not just "canon-in-training") would indeed help to build up the clan with the new additions. For another, with Brooklyn, Angela, and Broadway left behind in New York while Hudson and Lexington went off to London with Macbeth - I suspected that you were laying the groundwork at that point.
The appearance of a literal phoenix was a definite surprise, though (except that I'd gotten a glimpse of it in Slave Labor Graphics' official teaser). Somebody had said once that you'd stated that, in the same way that the Eye of Odin would turn out to be literally Odin's missing eye, the Phoenix would eventually be associated with the Phoenix Gate - but I didn't think that would happen so soon!
Trust Brooklyn to bring in another "when" as well as "where", once he finds himself time traveling.
A new villain in the form of Brother Valmont, and a creepy one at that.
The writing on the wanted poster reminded me of Tolkien's tengwar (Elvish lettering, for those not familiar with the details of Middle-earth).
Gillecomgain and his father showing up to help Constantine was another surprise.
Another touch I enjoyed: Constantine's lie about Finella having a son murdered by Kenneth (I recognized that at once from the research I'd done on the original Scottish histories about Kenneth and Finella).
And her alias of "Fiona". (No relation to a certain Canmore, I assume.)
I really liked the medieval Scotland setting in this story and the next two issues; another of my favorite aspects of "Gargoyles".
I liked the cameos of Findlaech and a surprisingly young Bodhe. (I hadn't thought he was that much younger than Findlaech!)
Ah, another touch of Shakespeare, as Kenneth III quotes "Hamlet" (if it counts as a quote when that play isn't to be written for another six hundred years).
Got a kick out of Brooklyn referring to various sci-fi series he'd seen.
And a great cliff-hanger (I hadn't even thought that Brooklyn might be looking for the pieces of the Gate extant in 997 - and, yes, just his misfortune that Demona has half).
* SPOILERS END *
Glad you liked it.
After over a year's wait, it's over. I finally get to read the final third of the Stone of Destiny story.
* SPOILERS FOLLOW*
I'd done a lot of speculating on what stories about the Stone Shari would tell in this issue, and researched the Stone. Three of the four stories I'd expected made the issue: Edward I's seizing it in 1296, Robert the Bruce giving a piece of it to Cormac Maccarthy which became the Blarney Stone, and the 1950 theft from Westminster Abbey. Not a bad record.
I was also pleased to note that Macbeth (apparently) helped out his fellow Scots at Bannockburn. I'm glad that he remembered his old country, despite all the centuries.
So it seems we're getting a taste of future Coyote developments when Coldsteel remarks that the robot has potential.
We meet Blanchefleur, Duval, and Peredur at last - and I was surprised to discover that Peredur (whom I assume to be the same as Percival; I know that "Peredur" is the Welsh form of Percival's name) is a different person from Duval. You really know how to surprise people; now we'll never take any "canon-in-training" information for granted again! There seem to be quite a few people with missing eyes running about the Gargoyles Universe: Odin (though that's been fixed), Hudson, and Duval - not to mention - but that has to wait for the review of #12....
Xanatos seems a bit less surprised than Macbeth, Arthur, and Peredur over the Stone's remarks (or maybe he's better at hiding it).
I liked all the Stone's titles (including the references to Sisyphus, the Philosopher's Stone, the Rosetta Stone, etc.). You really gave it quite an aura there.
So the Grail's a plain wooden bowl (or at least, takes on the form of a plain wooden bowl) in the Gargoyles Universe, rather than the golden goblet? Though since I've seen other such interpretations of the Grail before, I'm not too astonished. (Having the Grail say something as informal as "Hey", on the other hand - that definitely surprised me.)
So King Arthur wasn't due to awaken for another two hundred years? I can guess now what "Britain's greatest hour of need" was in the Gargoyles Universe.
And I like the touch of Shari launching into the very story we've been reading at the very end.
I really enjoyed the Stone of Destiny story; it incorporated some of my favorite elements of "Gargoyles" (Macbeth, King Arthur, various legends, etc.). Thanks for making it one of the stories in "Clan-Building".
* SPOILERS END *
You're welcome. It was a very rewarding story for me.
I just wanted to say that I like the new Spectacular Spider-Man Animated Series concept. At first, I was skeptical; being that I am a fan of the 90's cartoon Spider-Man, but I like it..and so does my son. Secondly, I personally do not care for the idea of Peter Parker in a romantic relationship with Gwen Stacey. She's too drab for him. Yes, they are kind of cute together in an all too predictable way. And so, makes for boring T.V. drama. I'd prefer it if Gwen ends up with Harry instead. That would actually make for a more interestingly dramatic twist. The concept of Peter with Liz is not so bad. But being that this versions Mary Jane Watson is soo much more intriguing, I would love it if Peter ends up with her; or at very least, Spider-Man with Black Cat. Either or is fine with me. ^_^ I just hope that Mary Jane does not suddenly turn into a scaredy cat type. (Shudder...) ~_~
Thank you for your time in reading this and allowing me to submit our comments. Best wishes on your journey. Peace. - A Fan ^_^"
Thanks.
I just read your obituary for Hermione, and wanted to send you my condolences. I'm sorry to learn about her passing.
Thank you.
This is not realy a question but i hope you read it.
I asked a question, but i total blew off the instructions in the begining. And i asked a question that had been asked a billion times before. Now looking back i worded it rudely too. I am sorry. I didn't mean to sound mean or to ask an over asked question. i am sorry. Yes i am the one writing the book and i am done. I didn't use the same location or anything that you ever did. I am sorry. I wish i could remove some of the questions i asked, but as you know i can't and if you read them before you get to this one, I AM SO SORRY. Please forgive my rudeness and the fact that i didn't read the instructions. Sorry. =(
Consider yourself forgiven... assuming ANY forgiveness was even necessary.
Hi Greg,
This is kind of a ramble/response to "stanley dean cowens" question/comment on how some shows take fan response into consideration when plotting out future stores.
Not knocking anyone, but in my personal experience, when most of the shows, comics that I liked started catering to fans more than telling their stories, it was usually not for the better. Most of the time, the author knows better than the fans when it comes to the theory (I say most, because there are some exceptions to this rule).
So, while some fans may have wished Goliath and Demona to reunite, or Brooklyn and Angela to hook up, I am glad you stuck to your guns and did what was right for the characters.
"Give the audience what they need, not what they want," is a phrase I personally subscribe to.
To be honest, that's why, as much as I like and admire Joss Whedon, I always felt that until he got a soul, the Spike/Buffy relationship seemed very forced. Even having Spike interact with the Scooby gang from season four on seemed forced... I love the Spike character, but a lot of what happened with him seemed to fly in the face of what had been established with the mythology up until that point. But, Spike being a very popular character, both with the fans and the writers, was put into a position he didn't really belong in, to his detriment, I thought. Of course, I was eventually vindicated in that, sadly, brutal scene near the end of season six in her bathroom.
I know that's an unpopular opinion, but it just never clicked with me until Spike was re-ensouled.
So, in that sense, I thank you for continuing to stick to your guns. Even in the "Gargoyles" comics, well... we all wanted more Demona, I know I certainly did. But you didn't force her in early to provide fan service. You serviced the story instead.
Thank you for that.
I liked the chipped-Spike.
I am the one, again that is writing the book. If i put that my main characters were in a one thousand and ten year sleep, would that be copying you? I am so sorry that i keep asking these questions. They just keep being brought to my attention. I would never want to copy anyones work.
Seriously... stop asking.
On the one hand, I'm absolutely not the first writer to put a character to sleep for a long period of time. (Rip Van Winkle ring any bells?)
But if you're close enough to my work that you feel the need to check if you're too close to my work, then the odds are you are too close to my work.
So stop asking. If you feel you're doing something original, go for it. If you don't don't.
Hi Greg.
I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but Internet Celebrity Douglas Walker (The Nostalgia Critic) Recently did a review of Gargoyles. This guy does reviews of a lot of old things from the 90s that often impacted people childhood; and in the case of Gargoyles, this is equally true for me. Regardless, in the past he has spoken positively of Gargoyles, and so I think you might be interested in watching the review when it goes up in a week (or when you get around to answer this question). I'm also curious as to your thoughts on it.
Here is the link to Nostalgia Critic's list of reviews:
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic
I did see it. And I was glad for the -- generally -- good press!
P.S. - I'm a HUGE and long time Gargoyles fan. Thank you so much for creating such a wonderful story and world.
You're very welcome. And thank you.
Ever get any fan mail by overseas fans on how they reacted to their countries Gargoyles (Japan, Guatemala, London, etc.)? Did they like how they were depicted?
Haven't actually. At least none that I can recall off the top of my head.
Greetings from Spain, Greg :)
I've been gliding through the archives in the hopes of finding something, anything, that can help me remember what my absolutely vital question was las time Ask Greg was open (Ask Greg closed before I could submit it). I'm sure it was something super boring about insights and Gargoyle psychology (especially Goliath's, I find him complex and amazing) but well. I'll have to stick to the rant that went with it and spare you the question :D.
You've heard all kinds of praises and ear-candies about you and the show by now, so I really don't want to be boring and repetitive.But the fact is that more than twelve years after the show was first aired here, I'm still as hooked as I ever was. If not more. I was in college then (imagine, I'll love watching cartoons till the last day :D) and I couldn't believe how good that episode of this Gargoyles thing I randomly caught one day was. I ended up rushing out of classes for the rest of the term, not to miss a single episode more.
You've explained before how you really feel that the story it's out there somewhere, and you tapped into it, somehow. I understand what you mean. It feels that way. Exactly that way.
The characters are so dimensional that they make the story so intense and...well, real. To the point that I'm not only positive about it being the best tv show I've ever seen, but also feels like one of the best readings. Your story is better than 80% of the books I've read in the last, say, 12 years. One almost yearns for something like Gargoyles happening to the world, with the same intensity which half the female population around the world dreams of finding Mr. Darcy... And that is something I truly thank you for.
Goliath and Elisa deserve a special mention. I don't think I've fallen so in love with a fictional couple since..well..Mr. Darcy here and Elizabeth (mm..actually I think I might have subconsciously matched the two brooding heros with the two strong-willed women, even though their stories are so different..). No wonder Elisa couldn't get herself off Goliath's hook and viceversa. And by the way, going through the archives, I read something about clan wind ceremonies on Elisa's dying. I'm amazed, I couldn't even picture it. It's so sad, one or the other dying, that even if intellectually it's something obvious, I really don't want to know that far. Pretty childish of me I guess but, well. I want some things eternal :D
For a Gargoyles unconditional, I guess I was born in the wrong country, lol. But one day, who knows! I just hope Gatherings are still happening.
Thank you so much, Greg, for a lot of reasons. Not only for the show and the comics and being here to feed the beasts from time to time, but for your dedication. For not giving up. For believing in what you do, and therefore allowing some of us to go along for the ride, and end up believing in what WE do (doomed-storyteller here :))
Wish you all the best, Greg, and I really hope you can find soon a way to let the story go on. The clan would want you to ;)
BeLa xx
PS: Just so you know, I showed Awakenings to Tania, a dear friend, and she watched the entire show, plus TGC (which she didn't really enjoy as much, by the way) in less than ten days.
PPS: I hope my english was understandable enough, by the way!
Hey, I'll take all the Jane Austen comparisons (particularly favorable ones) that you want to dish. I'm a big fan. And I'm sure she was (at least) an indirect influence on my work.
And your English is just great. Thanks for all the kind words.
So I unexpectedly came off work early today and found myself with a bit of free time-- not much, mind you, but enough. I don't know what it says for my intelligence or creativity that my thoughts immediately wandered to television, but eh . . . free time is supposed to make you feel good, not benefit humanity as a whole. And it felt like it'd been awhile since I'd gotten to actually sit down and watch anything (as opposed to, say, piping up the volume and listening from another room while I do this, that or the other thing). I wasn't sure what, if anything, I was in the mood for, and cast a casual eye onto my DVD shelf.
Gargoyles.
Well, why not Gargoyles? The quality ratio and fun factor with that show is so high that the only difficult part there is choosing which episode to run. So I pulled down Season One.
Initially I thought to watch Awakenings, but that's a lot of time to commit for one sitting when I had other things to be doing later on. I decided I'd watch "Enter Macbeth" instead.
It is, of course, one of my all-time favorites. mainly because of its titular character.
I actually watched it two times through for the hell of it. When I was finished, I ended up thinking and rethinking through a lot of it . . . and then somewhere in the back of my mind I remembered ASK GREG.
So, I thought I'd ramble. That *is* allowed, isn't it?
ENTER MACBETH
Yeah, we'll tell the truth on this one: The episode does kinda look like . . . well, crap. I have a much more affectionate eye for the episode than I did upon first viewing and look past a lot of it now, but there are still moments of "Enter Macbeth" that I can't get out of my head as something to say, "God, that's some [your negative adjective goes here] animation." I can't quite put my finger on what it is-- the whole episode just feels so off from a visual standpoint.
This would, in fact, become the start of one of the things I disliked most about this particular studio. When gargoyle wings fold over cloak-like, you should not see the three "limbs" as you do when seeing their interior. Or at least, you don't in the better animation studios. Drive me nuts; don't know why.
And of course, there was that one shot of Macbeth with the most yellow friggin' teeth. WTF?!
Greg, it's been many years since I've checked the archives in any great detail, but I think I remember you saying something like, "I was sure that the bad animation would make it so that almost no one would be interested in seeing Macbeth again." Well, this is one of those instances where the characters and plot shine through to make up for an episode's lackluster animation. (I call them "Korean Incidents".) It never detracted from the story. Not for me, anyways.
Let's start with Macbeth himself. This is an interesting character. At first glance, he appears to come out of nowhere. His motivations are unclear, so for now he's just "the bad guy". So how do you sell him without the cool backstory that will be developed later?
You have him kick copious amounts of ass, both literally and figuratively.
The scene with him posing as a prison guard is a highlight. So much of the credit for this episode should go to John Rhys-Davies, who from what I can tell just leapt into the role. Although, is it my failing memory or is this practically the only time that Xanatos and Macbeth have any real interaction with one another? If this is true, then that's a shame because they play well off of one another. But why would Macbeth introduce himself as . .. well, *himself*, rather than Lennox MacDuff (presuming that this is the identity he's gone by for many hundreds of years as a cover)?
Look at this guy, though. Not only does he wait for the gargoyles to awaken, he takes them all on single-handedly and wins. Not only that, but he takes prisoners. All on their home turf, and without so much as breaking a SWEAT. His knowledge in these "creatures" is so expert that he knows precisely what to do and how to do it with cold and calculated precision.
Check that attack. He throws (an admittedly off-guard) Broadway into Hudson and over the castle edge with ease. Then before anyone else can react, he tosses the smoke pellets and gains the upper hand over everyone else. Confusion ensues. The gargoyles who can't see and don't move end up blindsighted by gargoyles who can't see and DO move in very wrong directions. Or by Macbeth himself, who most assuredly can see and makes short work of Brooklyn before he can do a damned thing.
From there, it's just zap zap zap and it's finished. "Captured me three gargs in under 20 seconds, EL-OH-EL."
I always found this battle to be interesting in and of itself. Macbeth, for as much as we know this far in the game, is ordinarily human. He doesn't have biological enhancements or special powers or even henchmen; he's as human as you or me. And he takes them ALL down. Hell, Goliath himself probably gets the worst of it-- the outcome is so nakedly humiliating that I'm blushing. Oh, and that body slam into the fusebox didn't help either.
And is it me, or was Elisa WAY too close when Goliath came swooshing down after being electrified by the hull of Macbeth's ship? I say that she was damned lucky: If he had actually COLLIDED with her at that speed, I say that she might've been crushed to death.
So now Goliath leaves to track them down. Hudson and Broadway are left to defend the castle, but of course that's another subplot all its own.
Elisa warns Goliath that it's not safe to stay at the castle. Hell, she says it three times in a row. And his best reaction is to shrug her off-- something he won't be so apt to do in later episodes. He took off awful fast to rescue the other gargoyles at that point, almost as though he couldn't avoid the conversation fast enough.
Something else we don't see a lot of in later episodes tends to show in abundance with regards to Season One and particularly "Enter Macbeth", and that's Goliath Pissed Off. It was only juuuuuuust last episode that he was in a rage over what he thought was Elisa getting shot by Dracon. Goliath holding Dracon over the railing was a powerful dramatic moment. (Although in hindsight, he does that a LOT. Twice in "Awakening" with Hakon and Xanatos, Dracon in "Deadly Force" and I think at least once more somewhere down the line, although I can't remember when.) But in "Enter Macbeth", it's kinda flipped around. Goliath caught Dracon with relative ease, and it was clear what he would have done had Broadway not fessed up in time. Goliath never catches Macbeth, though. And he spends so much time chasing mirrors and shadows that I think Goliath might have been pissed enough to do worse than simply drop him. So we get to see a lot of vicious anger on his part in this ep. Roaring. Tearing through walls. Getting into a slugfest. Goliath isn't just another species, he's a dangerous one when it comes to the defense of his clan.
But that just makes Macbeth even cooler. Now it's Goliath who's handled with ease. Think about that for a moment. GOLIATH. A gargoyle warrior who is more than a match for just about any human out there. But against Macbeth, and especially on his turf, that same gargoyle finds himself at a disadvantage. And what makes that so interesting is that Macbeth isn't this ZOMG "genetically-engineered gargoyle sorceress hybrid mutant clone" superior foe. He's a human being. A human being with technology up the wazoo, but still human.
Look at the way he handles himself in their duel, after the chase is over. It's completely even. It was smart of Goliath to grab for a weapon when he got the chance, because even if weaponry isn't his habit I think he knew that against a sword-swinging Macbeth it was his only real chance. Even so, Macbeth doesn't relent. Goes on and on. Fights until the mansion is about to go up in flames . . . and he never gets too angry or panicked even when forced to escape. Is he pissed because the plan went to rot and his house burned down? Sure, why not? But he still takes it all with a certain amount of stride. No loud threats for vengeance, no personal grudge against Goliath, no real "villainous" actions taken at all (except, maybe, leaving the other gargoyles to burn alive). He just leaves when the gettin's good, and knows a little more for next time.
Love that little slip-out-of-the-jacket thing, by the way.
No, Macbeth doesn't have extra emotions to waste on Goliath and company. He wants Demona, Demona, Demona. The other gargoyles are just pawns (albeit useless ones as it turns out). I think it was a wise decision for her to not show up in this episode at all; it would have been too convenient, not to mention that it would also have detracted from Macbeth's character study. This is his episode.
Back at the castle, the remaining Gargoyles decide to take the Grimorum off Xanatos' hands. Now Owen gets his moment, too.
Hudson: Who's going to stop us? You?
Owen: Indeed.
You can tell by Hudson's attitude that he didn't expect Owen to knock his ass onto the floor. I don't think any of us did! Then, before Broadway can intervene, he's got a loaded gun pointed at his head. (I don't think that S&P would let that slide nowadays.) Owen is capable and reasonably prepared, no matter the circumstances. I think it's great that it's Elisa throwing a crutch at him that effectively turns the tables-- for all their strength, the gargoyles ended up pretty helpless otherwise.
Ah, well. All part of the job for Owen Burnett. However, I wonder if he faced some sort of penalty or reprimand for failing to prevent the theft of the Grimorum.
I despise when recurring characters are introduced via Korean outsourcing. I would say, introduce them some other way, and then give them crap animation somewhere down the line. Macbeth has a great character design; it should have been introduced through one of the better studios, perhaps the best one. (Not that I'm implying fault. You can give only so many episodes to Japan's Tokyo outlet; you make your choices and you live with 'em.) This is one of those episodes that I say to myself, "Damn, I'd love to see what this would'a looked like with kickass animation."
The "City of Stone" four-parter becomes interesting for this reason, given that we see how many changes Macbeth has gone through throughout the centuries . . . again, both figuratively and literally. It's not done by the Tokyo studio, but we're given so many designs for Macbeth. It's wonderful.
I've gotta start dinner now, so I guess that about does it for me. Later!
~Da Lemmy
We couldn't know while writing scripts which episodes were headed for Korea vs. Japan. Of course, nowadays, things in Korea have improved quite a bit. ALL of The Spectacular Spider-Man is animated there, and we're generally thrilled with the results.
I just thought you might like to learn about this - especially now, when any piece of good news involving "Gargoyles" would be welcome.
I've been asked to write an article on "Gargoyles" for a book of essays on the Middle Ages as depicted on television (apparently, other articles in the book will include such shows as "Roar" and "The Tudors"). I don't know how much word it'll spread (I suspect it's going to be the kind of book found mostly in university libraries), but if it informs one person about "Gargoyles", it'll be worth it.
That's great. Congratulations! And keep us posted.
KINGDOM
You asked for my ramble, and here it is!
ANIMATION
Okay, let me start off with the animation here. I don't know what studio did this ep, but I wish they did EVERY episode for the show! It has the feel of some sort of Animated Film or an Anime. The action is smooth, and even when the characters aren't talking, they aren't just standing there(something I've recently found in cartoons that I don't like), their always doing something. Little nuances that makes the scenes more realistic are EVERYWHERE.
Example: In the first scene, when we open on Hudson watching Brook and Lex glide in, you can tell how disturbed he is that they're alone, without Goliath. More often then not scenes of a similar vein have the character have more ambiguous expression.
Another example is Fang and Talon's areil fight in the Labyrinth: Real cool. They even got the wings to flap! (Bat's wings remember?)
And I looked for that Cross-Eyed Xanatos you mentioned(I got the DVD), and I think I saw it, but it was barely a blink in the animation. two or three frames tops I'd say.
And I liked Maggie and Claw's interation during Fang and Talon's fight. I got the impression that Claw was quite smitten with her at one point.
But by far, my absolute FAV bit was right when Fang took Maggie Hostage. It was fluid, and the animator really put effort into making Maggie look like she was trying to escape, or at least look ticked off. I could watch that footage loop all day, I'm THAT impressed. I also got a ThunderCats vibe from it for some reason.
And how about Lex breaking through that ceiling in the final scene? Arms crossed and all that.
VOICE ACTING
Not much to say here. But the performances are-as always- top notch.
"Do I really need an excuse to have a good time in my own home?" I laughed out loud there.
However, Katie Soucie's portrayal is off this time. Her Maggie voice isn't what it was. It's deeper, smoother this time around, when before it was a tiny bit higher and somewhat raspy. She's still giving a great performance, it's just that the voice itself is out of continuity. I know that you weren't in charge of Voice Direction, but I just thought at least Katie would remember the voice she used a few months prior.
I guess the in-show answer could be that either the mutation has set up in her vocal cords(and stops there), or that it's to show her standing up more, sort of speak.
And am I the only one who finds the fact that Jeff and Katie are acting characters that are acting funny?
STORY
I didn't know Gargoyles existed, let alone watch it, until maybe '95 or '96. I remember watching something on TGIF about the new One Saturday Morning block when/if it had Gargoyles. (I remember a gag with the host that night with a Gargoyle's eyes glowing red) I watched the show on and off over the years(NOT that I didn't love it, I just could catch the reruns all the time). Anyway, I can't remember the first time I watched this episode, so I can't give my first impression sadly.
And Brooklyn's lack of action is understandable, and doesn't come off as fear, which is important. And that first scene shows that, while they probably couldn't do so for long, the clan does have an idea of what needs to be done without a leader(to many shows have the 'non-leader' types fall to peices without an authorety figure too quickly). It also shows what a minipulative punk Hudson can be! ^_^ (That's a good thing)
You mentioned the question of a Power Vaccume, and I agree that no organized group can exist without a leader type, be it an individual, or a group. I also think that, without some form of disciplinary threat, no organization is safe, as Talon's lack of action against Fang shows, and a fact Maggie subtly brings up, and Talon gives the stereotypical arguement for no punishment.
And it seems Xanatos has become Talon's Demona, something Fang expertly exploits beautifully.
And yes, the new security stinks. I think the next version might not be so...destructive.
As to your concern about the lack of use of "Xanatos knows!!" nugget, I think-even if he couldn't find a use for the info directly-it could still be useful in making the Gargs needlessly wary.
Now those blaster, am I correct to assume that Cyberbiotics was up against Xanatos Enterprises for a lasor weapons military contract?
Speaking of, I can only assume that Talon and the others didn't come down with a fatal case of Dead By Lasor is that Fang, Claw, Chaze and Lou didn't know how to aim those things.
And I think Maggie was very brave in her own way. To many crimes go on because those who COULD stop it by going to the police, WON'T out of fear. She could have easily just gone with Fang's regime, but she went to the Gargs. Be it out of love for Dereck, or a since of Justice.
During the battle at the end, I always feel worried for the homeless people and their stuff, cause that's quite literally all they have in the world.
And I'm impressed by Fang when he gets Maggie, "I have no gripes with you. Leave now and Maggie goes free." This is fundamentally different from, say, Demona, whose only response to anyone-human OR Gargoyle-standing against her is 'KILL 'EM! KILL 'EM ALL!!!!' Fang however, is willing to let them all go, even let Maggie-a vital bargining chip with Talon- leave with them. This-to me- hints that he has a grasp of who's his enemy, and-grudes aside-could be an okay guy. ...Or an idiot with no sense of strategy. Your choice.
And those great acting skills you keep telling us about! Give 'er a hand everybody! And hey, even if Maggie's looks keep her off most of the plays out there, like I always say: she would be a shoe in for CATS.
And there is one more lesson that I'm surprised no one else got. Or at least, no one's mentioned. Fang calls out to Claw, asking him if he wants to be weak. Claw shakes his head no. No, he doesn't want to be weak... anymore. He chooses to be strong in a different way, and abandons Fang to team up with Talon and Maggie.
And so the 'Mutate Trilogy' has ended, with the Labyrinth Clan firmly established and allied with the Manhattan Clan. Maggie and Talon are firmly established(Much to the joy of the Maglon shippers, though to the woe of the Broogie shippers), and Brooklyn and Talon have fully accepted their respective roles as leaders.
I enjoyed this ep. Saddly Doc Sevarius isn't present(any Tim Curry is AWESOME), but that's okay, 'cause he really wasn't needed here. I hope to do the other Mutate eps, and the rest of the episodes sooner or later.
Good luck with the comic!
Though I wasn't the voice director (that was Jamie Thomason), I was in fact in charge of the voice performances/direction, so I'll take responsibility for what you didn't like. But be aware that we made a conscious choice here. This wasn't us (me, Jamie or Kath -- and it's Kath Soucie, not Katie) forgetting what she used to sound like. This was the three of us deciding that changes in personality, mutation and confidence would give us the voice you heard.
You are so the man. I was afraid the new Spider-Man series might just be a rehashing of old stories for the youngins but I'm having a ball with it. How does it feel to write a script and know it's gold? :D I had some solid laughs, and that line about "...Harry losing his dad..." was chilling. The voice acting is quality (some familiar ones in there too, I don't know all the names like some of the hardcores here I do remember them ;)). I've only seen the first episode yet and I love how it wasn't just linear with one villain, one small fight where Spider-Man gets beat down, and one big fight Spider-Man eventually wins. Multiple arcs, both high school and super hero life, and multiple villains building in the same episode is where it is at. I didn't actually realize you were so involved in this project but I am so glad you are. The powers that be chose wisely! No pun intended. Every since it went off the air I've urned for Gargoyles to make reappearance on the small screen or, be I so bold as to say it, the big screen! I guess in some way your legacy will live on vicariously through this series, not that Spider-Man should fit in a Gargoyle's mold, but you get my drift. Keep it real pisano.
Well, hopefully you're picking up the Gargoyles comic books... which is where Gargoyles truly does LIVE AGAIN!
But thanks for the kind words on both shows.
I'm going to work on a review for The Spectacular Spider-Man episodes 1 and 2 later today. I'll probably review them in the same style I review the comics, but I have been working on some paragraph styled reviews on tv.com. So I thought I'd present some for some episodes of Gargoyles and the Kim Possible episode Big Bother and see what you think of how I do:
1. This is for the Gargoyles Series as a whole:
"A show worth watching, and owning. The current comics from Slave Labor Graphics is equally worth buying.
I probably couldn't do the series justice in my review, but I'll certainly try.
Like many, I enjoy the show for it's appealing characters and interesting stories. The show demonstrates originality in coming up with rarely used ideas or putting a spin on established cliches.
An example would be the episode "Future Tense". The episode at surface appears to be a copout as the events were a dream. When infact it serves to foreshadow future episode/comic story elements.
The show is also well balanced. While I do have a share of favorite adult cartoons, Gargoyles manages to be adult/mature without relying on adult content nonstop. It's serious without being depressing.
Here's hoping the comic will continue for a long time."
2. Possessions (This review of course predated #6 being released):
"Didn't expect to see an immediate follow up on Puck teaching Alexander the use of his powers. It was also fun to see the return of Coldstone and crew. Coldstone's appearance in the Himalayas will be explained in #6 of the Gargoyles comic series.
What helped to make the soul transfer interesting was the choice to keep Broadway, Angela and Brooklyn's voice the same. That decision payed off even more since Brooklyn's behavior was puzzling.
As far as the forshadowing goes, I'm embarassed to admit I didn't see the pairing between Broadway and Angela coming. I thought she would end up with Brooklyn."
3. The Journey:
The episode could have done without the opening monologue as it can't hold a candle to the "Previously On Gargoyles" segment.
It's easy to see the differences between this and the rest of the season. One being that this is the only episode to deal with Xanatos' amoral nature (that he can't be trusted completely). This episode also brought up more of the Gargoyles continuity than the remaining episodes.
Seeing Vinnie make peace with Goliath was a nice little twist. Still where the episode fails, the comic improves.
4. Kim Possible - Big Bother:
"I saw it on Disney Channel.com, and made sure to record it during it's premiere. Recently my stepsister had a baby last summer, she's really adorable. So, I can really understand the Stoppable's feelings towards Hana. Right up there with Alexander Xanatos, as one of the best animated babies introduced.
Favorite moments include Ron's attempt at taking care of a sack of flour and sugar, Ron breaking the news to Yori concerning him and Kim and of course the end of the episode."
So, are my paragraph reviews ok, good or needs more work?
Hey, as long as your being honest, who am I to review your reviews?
The only episodes of the original series that you never did rambles for were the final two parts of "Hunter's Moon". I don't know if you'll ever be able to do them or not, but I thought I'd give you my own ramble on both.
PART TWO: One of my favorite segments of this episode was the opening in Renaissance Florence, with Demona stealing the Medici Tablet and being pursued by a Hunter in a Leonardo da Vinci-style flying machine. (Though the Hunter does come out looking a little dense when he's cursing about having lost her, while Demona's only a few yards away from him, climbing out of the river. No wonder she's got that smirk on her face.)
Matt's reference to Nokkar at the press conference was also a lot of fun.
Elisa's scene with Jason outside the warehouse was great. It captured their feelings for each other effectively, with the added ironic twist that Elisa doesn't know that Jason was the Hunter who attacked Angela the night before, and Jason doesn't know that Elisa's friend was the gargoyle he'd almost killed the night before. (It reminds me now of the early stages of Buffy and Riley's relationship in Season Four of "Buffy", where Buffy doesn't know that Riley's part of the Initiative, Riley doesn't know that Buffy's a Slayer, and each sees the other as a civilian who needs to be kept out of the way when there's vampire-hunting going on. Though I think - and I hope you won't mind my saying this - that Joss Whedon topped you by having Buffy and Riley finding out about each others' secret lives simultaneously.)
The drama continues in the scene at Elisa's apartment later, when she and Jason almost kiss, followed by her admission (with Goliath listening) that there's someone else in her life, but a relationship with him would be impossible. The devastated response on Goliath's face is great, and moving. (No wonder he goes so berserk on the Hunters' airship shortly afterwards!)
Brooklyn and Lexington's uneasy response towards Goliath's destructiveness (including the scene where they're descending the clock tower steps with him near the end) is also well-handled.
And, of course, the build-up to the moment where Robyn opens fire on the clock tower.... It's a pity I can no longer remember what my initial response to that was.
PART THREE: You've heard this before, but I still think that the opening scene, with Demona killing Charles Canmore in front of his children, feels almost like a twisted version of the young Bruce Wayne seeing his parents' murder. (The difference is that Thomas and Martha Wayne were genuine innocent victims, while Charles Canmore brought about his own death through his pursuit of a pointless feud.)
I remember being curious over where the new Hunters had come from, since the original Hunters of "City of Stone" (except for Macbeth) were long since dead. The revelation that their surname was "Canmore" explained a lot - except that we never found out in "Hunter's Moon" how the hunt resumed, and why it revolved around Demona this time (since Duncan and Canmore's use of the Hunter's alias centered on their feud with Macbeth instead). I hope that the comic book will last long enough to answer that question in full.
The new Hunters stand out from the old ones; instead of scheming tyrants straight out of one of Shakespeare's history plays (as Duncan and Canmore were), they're more misguided. Their Shakespearean analogy (to me) is Hamlet, who also sets out to avenge his father's death, and in the process of his revenge inadvertently brings about more tragedy (the deaths of over half the cast, and Fortinbras being able to take over Denmark without a fight - and since the main thing we know about Fortinbras was that he invaded Poland over a worthless piece of land simply because his uncle wouldn't let him invade Denmark, he doesn't hold much promise as a wise and restrained ruler). The Canmores have nobler qualities than their forebears; Jason is capable of genuine feelings towards Elisa (and a change of heart at the end), in particular. They aren't the straightforward villains that the original Hunters were - which makes their conflict with Goliath's clan all the more tragic.
But they're still dangerous - especially since they blow up the clock tower in attempting to get rid of the gargoyles, which results at least in Captain Chavez getting a broken leg. Despite their having a similar modus operandi to Batman, this is another obvious difference between them; I can't imagine Batman blowing up a police station in Gotham City in an attempt to get rid of the Joker - and then, after discovering that the Joker got away, pretending that he (the Joker) blew up the police station. I've discussed Jon's behavior in framing the gargoyles for the destruction while aware of the truth about them, but Jason and Robyn don't come off much better. They've endangered and harmed their fellow humans in the course of their hunt - and instead of taking responsibility for it, blame it on the gargoyles. (To be fair to them, they do it in order to help flush the clan out rather than to evade arrest for their actions, but it's still far from honorable behavior.)
Which brings me to a side-point about the Hunters. The obvious reason why we see them as villains is that we know the truth about the gargoyles - that they're not all like Demona, and the Hunters are wrongfully persecuting an entire species for the crimes of a single member (and a member who's out of favor with her own former clan, at that). But even if the gargoyles were the demonic monsters that the Canmores believed them to be, the Hunters are still pursuing them out of a senseless vendetta, rather than to protect the public from them - and probably do more to endanger the public than the gargoyles could have done on their own. Their reasons for gargoyle-hunting are not noble ones. And while they're aware of Demona's plans to wipe out humanity, they seem to be after her more because of her past actions against her family, than because of her schemes to commit genocide.
Goliath's blaming the Hunters for Elisa going over the dam, when he's more to blame, is one of the most chilling moments of the series, and a further sign of how much the feud is warping him. Fortunately, Elisa's return snaps him out of it in time - though too late to save Jon Canmore from taking the steps that will transform him into Castaway. (His cry of "What have I done - what have *they* done?" is another chilling moment, especially to those who've seen "City of Stone Part One".)
And with Elisa saved, Goliath now shows us the best that he's capable of, in how he foils Demona's scheme. Since she's about to carry out her plan at the point that the human world has learned about the existence of gargoyles at last - and most of them are clearly hostile and howling for blood - Goliath's thwarting Demona is a truly heroic act; he's willing to endanger himself and his entire kind (not only from Demona's virus, but also from potential Quarryman-style movements to follow) in order to preserve the humans, even though most of the humans aren't likely to show any gratitude at this point.
The final scenes (following Xanatos's rescue of the gargoyles) make a fine wrap-up to the season. Elisa talking to Jason in the hospital (including the mention of Demona and Jon out hunting each other - a great way to resolve that issue if there wouldn't be a third season). Xanatos assuring Elisa that the feud with the clan is over (of course, we know now that he's still scheming - and his current scheme could lead to a clash with the clan anyway). The actions of the other gargoyles as they settle into their new (or old) home - and finally Goliath and Elisa speaking to each other atop the highest tower, and the kiss. A great ending.
Thanks. I would like to do those rambles, but there's been such a gap in watching the series with my kids, that we'd almost have to start over. And frankly, now that my kids are older, I'm not sure when we'll be able to put together 33 hours (even scattered over 66 days) to do it.
Greg,
For the sake of brevity I will suspend sentence structure, condense context, and be as melodramatic as possible for full effect; I know testimonies have come your way in the past, but I also hope that such sincere ramblings from a fan to a creator never become tiresome.
I am a 24 year old female grad student who was raised in a closet of reality, in a single-minded religion, and without a good idea of my surroundings beyond that which I was taught to observe. At the age of eleven I saw the Gargoyles premiere.
Now whether it was a direct parallel to things already unspoken or a new and subtle influence on things to come, I can positively link what is now a lifetime of serious learning to the series that you sought to create with its multi-layered story, dynamic characters, and more verisimilitude than any other cartoon series I have ever encountered. From then until now I have studied (both on my own and in institutions of higher learning) comparative history, religion, mythology, literature, philosophy, art, and government. I have written a personal mission statement of tolerance, equality, and compassion for everything with a nervous system, and have maintained a wicked sense of humor and laissez-faire attitude that would make Xanatos proud. I seek to be a scholar, a trickster, and a strong, modern woman. Elisa, I should note, is a personal hero and I am OBSESSED with Gothic architecture.
I do not claim you and your efforts are the ultimate, godly force in my life, but I want to declare the power of such themes on a young girl, and want to thank you for not believing children incapable of understanding.
My question is: does this give you satisfaction?
Because I want it to.
-Valerie
Does it give me satisfaction? Geez, Valerie, how could it NOT? Thank you. Those are very kind words, and a thrill to the creator, the television producer and the teacher in me.
A comment, rather than a question. One of my fondest memories from the days when "Gargoyles" was on the air was, after seeing "City of Stone" and "Avalon", reading up all that I could find about the historical Macbeth, and Constantine's murder of Kenneth II. I already knew some things about early medieval Scotland (enough to know that Gruoch was the name of the real Lady Macbeth, that Macbeth overthrew Duncan in battle in actual history, and about his stepson Lulach), but after seeing those episodes, I learned even more.
Now, after Bad Guys #1 and Gargoyles #7, I've experienced once again that feeling. I've looked up whatever I could find about thylacines, and Gathelus and Scota, after reading the issues that they appeared in. Now I know even more than ever that "Gargoyles" is back. Thanks, Greg.
You're welcome. And thanks again to Kathy Pogge who did SO much research for me on the history of the Stone.
hi greg,i have not read all the questions,but peerhaps the first french who write here!!!
so first of all ,i'm not going to be original,but i wanted to say that all you have done,with this series is amazing .In france the series disapear since 1999 ,and i 'm still a big fan .since march i got all the episodes and how fun it is to see my heroes back .eight years happen and my vision of the series have not changed,i' m now more able to see the detail ,the important details,that i could not see when i was young.that mean for me ,that gargoyles is more an adult series ,the psikology of all the characters are perfest an so deeply worked.i do not remember seing this on any other series.I see the episodes one on one ,and after seing one reading for the first time your rambles.I think it was so fun to see how you create the show ,,your first thoughts,our what would you prefer.and so on .i wwanted to react for all of us ,but it would have bored you (64 e mail ,i think it's a bit hard)
at list i see the evolution in my perception of the series,my favorite character was brooklynn first time i saw the serie,then broadway ,i found him strong an funny.and now at 20,it is hudson i really like,his attitude ,his experience ,his warrior skills,his swords and in the price he is so good ,his dialogue with wanatos on immortality are for me one of the best moment of the series.meanwhile my favorite episodes is shadow of the past ,this is a killing one !!!!the story the animation ,all is nearly perfect ,keith david voice as goliath is wonderful,the atmosfere of hate and shadow is so great ,so spooky and so referated(i' m not sure it exists in english)to the past.I also like long way to mourning ,you know,hudson stuff,a good story ,and the fact hudson trick demona at the end with the sun .
During the multiple revision of the serie ,i discver lot of details ,you could not see when you see the episodes just one ,the last was owen when they received john carter at castle wyvern ,he hide his stony hand in the pockets of his smoking ,i had never figured before ,but what would a man say when you saw a stony arm .and i noticed a lot of scene like this.
i want to add a word on the comics,just as the serie ,great works ,we rally found what made the series a success.i have the hope that the comics will have a long life.
To end this ,i want just add a question,after all we are here to ask question!!i just want to know if you had infos about gargoyles in france for the future,not an original question i know!!!
and are you going one day to make a gathering in paris ? perhaps ,i always wanted to go at one ,but you know ,to young and it cost a lot for going ,but one day i'll come
so greg sorry for all i have written ,but i wnated to write for so long you know!!!!!!good luck for the future ,and long live to the comics (my principal hope)
It's not up to me to make a Gathering in Paris -- it's up to Parisian fans.
And if you want to see more of Paris in the Gargoyles Universe, check out Gargoyles: Bad Guys, "Redemption, Chapter Three: Estranged".
"""Vaevictis Asmadi writes...
This is just a comment to K9...
I think you are thinking of some Amazonian Native Americans. The Mayans and other people in Mesoamerica certainly wore clothes pre-contact."""
AH! Yes. Okay. Sorry, I wasn't quite sure about that. I'm more knowledgible of the eastern and North American primatives, the Central and South American areas/tribes/What-have-yous tend to blend together for me.
<twiddles thumbs>
Hey. I got into gargoyles a few months ago when one night during summer break I was staying up late like always and noticed it on. Thought "Oh hey, Maybe I should watch that" so I set it on DVR. I'm a sophmore now, so I forgot just about everything (except for lexingtons name and Goliath it seems...) from back when I was a kid. Great show. Oh yes, and thank you. Thanks to you, and this site, I started reading macbet. Now I'm reading Beowulf (not sure if you've read that.) I owe my uhh... making reading more important to me, to you, so thanks. I'm still watching the series (Or I will start back on it I hope when I get my channels back.) and I haven't read the comics, though from what I hear they are good. Don't really have a question I guess. Just wanted to say thanks. Oh, Uhh...
1. Do you have any future plans for Nokkar in the current gargoyles series (Not 2198. Might be obvious...>_>)?
You're welcome. I have read Beowulf. Great story.
1. I have plans for every character.
Hi Greg, i just wanted to say that i love your responses to some of these questions..lol. Short and sweet, it just cracks me up. Anyway, great job with the comics, I think they're awesome, and hopefully the rest of the cartoon series will be released as well. Good luck with spectacular spider-man, i'm looking forward to your creativity, p.s. and don't bog yourself down with answering too many questions as you seem really irritated by it lol :)
I'm really dying to give you a short, sweet, FUNNY response. Can't think of ANYTHING. Sorry.
Since it was brought back up, I too am sorry about your cat. Had a few cats we've had to say goodbye to ourselves.
Thanks.
I do not know if you realize this or not, but you have done "This day in Gargoyles' Universe History" for over 6 months now. Thank you for doing this for us, the fans.
You're welcome. It's kinda fun for me too.
Something that came to mind a while back. You mentioned in your rambling of The Mirror:
That the original dialogue from Demona was "You serve him, you can serve me". That was changed due to fear that "him" would be mistaken for Satan.
Kind of funny considering your ramble on "Her Brother's Keeper":
"Derek thinks Elisa thinks Xanatos is the "Prince of Darkness". "He practically is!" she responds. <SIGH> Tricksters are always being confused with Satan."
"But that was more irony. It's not the demonic-looking gargoyles who are being compared to Satan. It's the handsome, rich Bruce Wayne-esque playboy. I guess the goatee helps."
Makes his membership (666 members) in The Illuminati all the more fitting.
Yep. Fun stuff, I think.
Tuesday, June 25, 2007: Day 5 of Gathering of the Gargoyles
I guess there really isn't a day 5, and that's probably when everyone is getting home, but still… Here's the last day of my journaling from a non-gathering point of view.
Kay and I didn't wake up until 10:00am the next morning because we were wiped out from Disneyland the day before. We packed and left the hotel around 11:00am to go next door to IHOP for the 3rd time in the three days (IHOP, day 3… it's kind of a joke around here now). We were going to meet my grandparents and my aunt and her family there, and since they called and told us they had a table already, we knew we'd be in and out of there quick. When we went inside, they were nowhere to be found. What had happened is that they went to the other IHOP on that street (for some strange reason, the IHOP people decided to put two IHOPs on the same street, literally 4 blocks from each other). We drove to the other IHOP and had breakfast there (so I guess we went to IHOP 4 times all together on the trip). When we finished breakfast, my family drove to the parking structure and went on the tram again to get into the Disneyland Park while the rest of our party walked (they had a parking pass for their car somewhere else and we didn't).
We went to California Adventure on this day. And again, there was a problem with the ticket I had to get into the park (the whole name thing was off… it was annoying). What made it worse than the day before with the other Disney employee, was that the lady was even more perturbed at us than the one before. Usually, Disney employees are the nicest people ever, but the two that we got that ushered us in each day at the ticket booth needed to remember where they worked. Enough on that. We met up with the rest of our party at a shop at the front of the park after we rented a locker to stuff our extra stuff in. We went to Soaring Over California, and seeing that the line was over an hour, we got fast passes. We went by the Grizzly Peak River Run thing and it was over an hour to wait in line (not surprising because it was REALLY hot and muggy outside), so we kept on going. We finally decided to go watch the Bug's Life 3D show, which is cute, and then after that we headed over to Tower of Terror, which only my family got on because no one else wanted to lose their breakfast or were too scared to get on it. After that ride (which is one of my favorites at that park) my cousin and Tyson wanted to get on the Grizzly Peak Rapid Ride, and so we stood in line for over an hour to get on it. That had to be the longest hour of the whole day… no the whole trip. I was not in the best of moods waiting for that ride, especially because the last time I'd gotten on the ride, I'd been soaked and uncomfortable for the rest of the trip. So, I made my dad get me a poncho that I would sit on so my backside wouldn't get wet. I didn't care if the top half of me was wet, but the bottom half of me was going to stay dry. The ride was fun and I didn't get too wet like others in our group, so I was happy. When that ride was over we had a half hour to kill before we could use our fast passes (which are a blessing… I need to shake the hand of the guy who came up with the idea of fast passes and tell him he deserves the biggest raise in Disneyland history…) so we went through the tortilla and sourdough bread factories. I like these because they are a nice little break from the crowd and you get to learn stuff too. Once we were done in there, we used the fast passes to get on Soaring Over California. Just about everyone who has gone on that ride have had only nice things to say about it. It is a very cool ride. We've seen people cry once they get off of it. How did you like that ride?
After this ride, my aunt and her family said their goodbyes to us. They left the park to go visit a friend of my aunt's for the next day. My grandparents and my family ate dinner (I had a sourdough bread bowl from the bread factory and everyone else had Mexican food). When we finished there, my family and I rode the Mulholland Madness roller coaster. My grandparents left after that to go do whatever they wanted and then they left the park. My mom, Kay, and I got on the Boomerang ride and then my whole family got on California Screamin'. That ride is awesome. We headed back over to Tower of Terror because my mom wanted to ride it again, but the line was too long, so we went to my favorite place ever which is called the Disney Animation Studio. This place is my favorite place in both parks combined, hands down. I LOVE IT!!! Have you ever been in there? If not, you're missing out. We didn't get to go to any of the rooms to do anything because my parents wanted to leave soon, so we sat in the main room, listening to music from Disney movies while drawings of the movies were shown all over the round room. After this, we did some shopping (ran into my grandparents 2 other times) and then left the park around 9:30pm. When we got home around 12:30am, everyone went to bed as soon as we walked in the door.
So, that's the whole thing and I am now finished with the journals. I hope you and all the other Gargoyles fans had a great time at the gathering. Though I didn't get to go (hopefully one day I will), I did have a great time at Disneyland.
Thank you for your time and all that you do.
-Charisma82
The first and only time I ever rode Tower of Terror was the day it opened at DisneyWorld. We were down there for the World Premiere of Gargoyles in September 1994. I was on the ride with my boss Gary Krisel, Marina Sirtis, Salli Richardson, Keith David and his manager Josh Silver.
Monday, June 25, 2007: Day 4 of Gathering of the Gargoyles
Again, from a non-gathering view point… Kay and I woke up in our hotel around 8:00am. Kay takes forever to get ready, so she started right away in the bathroom while I dozed off and on into dream world and then back into reality. Once it hit around 8:30am I decided to get up for real. I turned on the TV to have some background noise and started getting ready. We planned to leave around 9:00am to 9:30am for IHOP, which was next door to where we were staying. I was glad that we left around 9:30am because I wasn't feeling so great while getting ready. When we walked into the IHOP I said "IHOP, day two," because we'd eaten at one the day before for dinner. Kay and I split something, me ending up with a pancake and her with eggs, hash browns, bacon, and sausage. I would've claimed more, but my stomach was still not up to eating much.
From IHOP we went to Disneyland. We were mad when we found out that Kay forgot the Disneyland CD in the hotel room so that we couldn't listen to it while we parked and all of that good stuff. We had to take a detour from where we usually go in to park in the parking structure because the regular way was blocked off, and so that took a bit more time. We finally made it in the parking structure and parked in the Goofy section. We took the tram to the front gate (I love riding the tram… it's really the first ride of the day at Disneyland, if you don't count the escalator). I had some trouble getting into the park because of the ticket I had. It was very annoying, especially because the Disney Cast Member wasn't very nice about it. What happened was that my ticket had a different name on it than mine because we'd let a friend borrow the ticket on a previous Disneyland trip and her name was on the ticket, but it was still our ticket (the ticket was good for up to 3 days at Disneyland and only one day had been used on it). They were asking me for ID and all that stuff, but I didn't even have that on me because I'd left it in the car. It was stressful for some people in my group who don't handle stress too well. Anyways, we finally got that taken care of and I was allowed into the park.
We had some time to kill before we met up with the rest of our party so we rented a locker to put extra stuff in, and headed for the board on Main Street that tells how long lines are. The Matterhorn was the shortest line with a 35-minute wait, so we went to that. After that ride we got on Thunder Mountain and then the Mark Twain boat that goes along the Rivers of America. Once that was over, we met up with my grandparents, aunt, cousin, and my aunt's boyfriend (who I will call Tyson, because I don's want to keep saying 'My aunt's boyfriend' the whole time). My aunt and her family wanted to ride on the Pirate Ship that goes on the Rivers of America, and since we'd already done that, we shopped while we waited for them (mainly shopped for trading pins, because I am REALLY into that). When they got off, we went to stand in line for Pirates of the Caribbean. We waited in the wheelchair line, since my aunt came in one due to health reasons. We ended up waiting there for an hour. My cousin (who is 13) told us that they'd never had to wait in a wheelchair line before. It was weird. After that ride, we went an Indiana Jones through the wheelchair line, which was fun because we got to ride on elevators and stuff to get to the ride. Once that ride was over, my grandparents left the park to go somewhere else. My aunt's family and ours went back to the Matterhorn, which was a big deal because my cousin had never been on a roller coaster ride before. They terrify her. She had to be bribed to get on it. She was promised $20.00 if she rode on it. It was funny because I sat in the car in front of her and heard her scream the whole time. That was the only roller coaster she got on all day (though she was bribed with $30.00 and a new sweatshirt of her choice if she got on Space Mountain… she still turned it down). After that ride, we went on the new Finding Nemo ride and waited over an hour in the wheelchair line, once again. The submarine was very stuffy and didn't have much air in it. It was a cute ride and is one of those you go on once to say you've been on it. After that, my aunt, mom, Kay, and I got on Space Mountain (my favorite ride of them all) through the wheelchair line. That was interesting. Everything was downhill and my mom, pushing my aunt, lost control of the wheelchair several times, almost ramming her into the wall. What was fun was when we got to the ride. All four of us got into our cars, which were not on the track, and then the cars were moved onto the track with us in them. I'd never done that before. I was bummed that the rockin' music from Red Hot Chili Peppers wasn't in the ride any longer. They'd had their music in there for about a month or two back around springtime. When the ride was over, it was VERY funny watching my mom push my aunt back up the ramps we'd taken to get there for the wheelchair people. It was SO funny because she was dizzy from the ride and she was swerving my aunt everywhere and almost hitting other people who were in the hallway. I won't forget it easily.
After that ride, my aunt and Tyson left the park for their hotel, and our family and my cousin had dinner at my favorite restaurant, Pizza Port. I love their spaghetti. Then we went on Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters where I rode alone and got to use both guns to fire with. After that, we went to Main Street to get stuff out of our locker (catching the end of the fireworks show in the process) and then watched the 50 magical years show with Steve Martin and Donald Duck as the hosts. We'd seen it at least 5 times before, so it was just something to kill time with. Once that was over, we met up with my grandparents and Tyson, who'd come back to the park for the evening. It was dark by now and we left to go see Fantasmic, but ended up getting the times screwed up and missed it. My grandparents went their separate way from us and the rest of us got on the Haunted Mansion. It was probably the shortest line all day. After that, we realized that there would be another Fantasmic show at 11:30pm, so we stayed for that. I love the Fantasmic show. It's great. When it was over, we looked in a few shops and then left the park, parting ways with my cousin and Tyson. We got back to the hotel after midnight and were wiped out. Kay took a shower and I plopped down on my bed and was asleep very soon.
Well, one more day after this and the journals will all be over. Until then…
Thank you for your time and all that you do.
-Charisma82
And thatnk you. Don't suppose you saw any Gargoyles walking around... or Gummi Bears... or Darkwing Duck?
Sunday, June 24, 2007: Day Three of Gathering of the Gargoyles
Here's the 3rd day of my non-Gathering weekend. Okay… Let me remember… I woke up around 8:40am to get ready for church. I wasn't feeling good, and after being up for about 10 minutes, I decided to lie down for a while and hope that I would get better. I ended up getting to church late because of this. My mom stayed behind with me and she drove us there (It's about 10 minutes away from where I live) because when I'm sick I hate driving. I started feeling better during church services. After church ended, there was a potluck going on and I stayed with my sister (Kay) for it while my parents took one of the cars back home. I ended up sitting at a table with Kay, Fizz, D.C., Peaches (whom I have spoken of before), Sprite, CameraBoy, Cliff, and a new person whose name escapes me at the moment. Everyone was there except Morgana who was up at her family's cabin for the weekend. We all had a fun time talking about different stuff, but mostly about camp. We are all going up to a camp up in the mountains, about 10 miles from Yosemite, this next week. Everyone goes up once a year and has a great time. I haven't been in about 2 or 3 years, so I'm excited. We talked about past pranks pulled on all the cabins and all the stupid stuff people do up there.
After we were done with lunch, Kay and I took her car back home where we sat around and watched TV or did stuff on the computer. I worked on Word of the Day (a sort of contest thing that I help with) and sent it out to everyone who participates in it. Around 4:00pm we started packing up stuff for our trip to Disneyland. We left near 5:00pm. As usual, I took the middle seat and Kay took the very back seat in our Suburban while my dad drove and my mom watched movies on her DVD player in the passenger's seat. I quickly set up my seat so I could lie down and then I fell asleep.
It usually takes about 3 hours to get to Disneyland from where we live, which was how long it took this time. It was dark by the time we got to the hotel. We ended up staying in a hotel we'd never stayed in before called the Radisson. Dad went in while we waited for what seemed like forever in the car. I didn't mind so much because the hotel was playing Disney music outside and I was listening to that. I rolled down my window to hear the music better and after I did, some lady sat down on a bench not 3 feet away from my window, and started smoking. I might not have been so mad about it if she hadn't noticed my window open, but she was staring at our car which was right in front of her. Okay, if you're going to smoke, don't do it next to an open window, just out of courtesy. My dad came out of the hotel and motioned for me to come in too. I asked what was going on and he said that because we had two rooms (one for my parents and one for Kay and I) I had to sign some papers. So I waited by the counter for forever while they typed a lot of stuff and had my dad sign papers, and then they said that they didn't need me after all. They had a lot of pictures in their lobby of different Disney movies, which was cool to see. After that, we went back to the car, parked it, grabbed all our luggage/pillows/blankets/electronics, found the elevator, went up to the 3rd floor (my mom hates elevators and she's never happy when we aren't on the 1st floor), found our rooms, and finally emptied our arms full of stuff. Kay and I like to get drinks and snacks from the machines when we visit motels/hotels, so we grabbed the ice bucket, got some cash from my mom, and headed out looking for the vending machines. We found a drink machine next to the ice machine, which didn't have a great selection on it. It cost Kay $2.00 for a drink. We hopped on the elevator and took it to the 1st floor, looking for snacks, and found a mini store. I bought a lemonade (for less than $2.00, so I got the better deal) and some ice cream, and Kay bought something to snack on too (I don't remember what). We were lucky 'cause they were about to close the store.
When we got back to our room, we ate our snacks while we flipped through the channels on the TV. There weren't many channels and ended up on the Disney channel (coincidence?) where some Hillary Duff movie was on. Believe me, nothing else was on. After that ended, Kay tried to go to sleep while I surfed around for another movie. I found a movie that had just started with Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Lopez in it. I didn't catch the name of the movie, but it was about Jennifer's character going into the minds of people who are in comas, trying to get them to tell her stuff. Vince's character is a police officer that captures a serial killer who goes into a coma. Jennifer has to go into his mind to find out where a woman is whom he captured. It was interesting. And what was funny is that the boy who plays the serial killer in his mind was also the boy in the Hillary Duff movie that had been on earlier. I need to look up the name of that movie 'cause it'll bug me if I don't know the name of it. After the movie ended, I listened to some Fallout Boy and then went to sleep around 1:30am.
So that was Sunday. I'll get to Monday and Tuesday as soon as I can. Lots of Disneyland stuff going on those days…
Thank you for your time and all that you do.
-Charisma82
Well, if you can't make the Gathering, I guess Disneyland is an appropriate alternative.
*** BJ's and Jess's Weekend Wedding Bonanza sans The Gathering 2007 ***
- Friday, June 22, 2007
I went to sleep early the night before so that I could meet up with all the groomsmen and the groom at 9am to go clay pigeon shooting. I was supposed to meet my friend Dan at his house in Danville and follow him to the shooting range. Well he was very late getting ready and by the time we reached the range, they were done shooting. I was pretty pissed, but I didn't let it get me down. We still had golf to do later that day, and I didn't want to go into that sport angry, especially at the low level of experience that I am in the first place.
So we all went to BJ's house, and then took two cars to get something to eat at KFC/Taco Bell, grabbed some golf balls at Wal-Mart, and then proceeded to the golf course called Turbot Hills. We had a 1:15 tee time. It was only $19 to play and it was a pretty nice course. I had borrowed an old set of golf clubs from BJ's dad, Bill, a few days before so I didn't have to spend $4 to rent a set. We got three carts, two guys per cart, drank beers and played scrimmage style where everyone plays from where the best ball was hit to. I only lost 3 balls that day which I thought was pretty good. I got a few good shots over all throughout the day, but the best part was just hanging with friends, drinking beers, and driving the golf cart.
Once we were done with 9 holes, we headed back to BJ's house to get ready for the wedding rehearsal at 5:30pm. It was going well until BJ lost it. It took him about 10 minutes to calm down and regain composure and we proceeded to practice. I assured him that it was normal to get emotional and not to worry about it.
Once we got that out of the way, we were treated to dinner. It was a good time and everyone was enjoying my antics. We then proceeded to this dive bar to have a few drinks and then headed home around 10:30pm to get plenty of sleep for the big day tomorrow.
*** BJ's and Jess's Weekend Wedding Bonanza sans The Gathering 2007 ***
- Saturday, June 23, 2007
BJ wanted all the groomsmen to meet at his house at 9am to hang out and watch movies. I got up at 7am and arrived at his place around 9:15am. I was the first one there. We proceeded to Sheetz and got some breakfast biscuits or Shbizcuits or something bizarre like that. We went back to BJ's and hung out. We didn't end up watching movies, but we ended up cruising the internet for a bit and then played bocce outside once the other groomsmen showed up. Before long it was time to head to the church and get dressed in our tuxes.
It was 1pm and we left for the church where we had put our tuxes the night before so it was convenient for Saturday. Once we got dressed, it was Adam "Wags" Wagner and mine job to light the candles on the altar. We did a great job of course, and then we proceeded with the other groomsmen, to escort the other ladies into the church to their seats. That was probably the most fun part, for me, for no apparent reason. Once it was 3:00pm, it was time to begin. All of us lined up in front of the church with the priest, and the bridesmaids entered while music played. Then Jess came in with a huge smile on her face, as her dad brought her up to the altar. After only 20 minutes it was over, and BJ and Jess were now husband and wife.
We waited outside and blew bubbles at them. I miss the old days when you could throw rice. That was always fun. After that it was time to take pictures back inside the church. We did this for 40 minutes until the limos came at 4pm.
The limos took us to the reception where more pictures were taken. I believe it wasn't until 7pm until we finally entered the reception and sat down to eat. The picture taking seemed to take longer than usual, and I'm sure the guests were upset, but I wasn't complaining, but made jokes and had a great time.
The best man and the father of the bride gave their speeches; we toasted, and began to eat some really delicious food - steaks cooked right on this huge grill in front of us. There was plenty of wine to drink for the reception was at the Spyglass Winery, and there was a half keg of Yeugling Lager, a local favorite in Pennsylvania. Not a lot of people were on the dance floor, but I was out there having a good time. I didn't bring a date, so I danced with Jess's friends and her cousins. They were all very beautiful young women and very nice to talk to and dance with.
But like all good things, this wonderful event had come to an end. I danced the last dance of the night with BJ's mom, Susie. She is a really great lady and I consider her my second mom. Once the DJ started packing up, she was nice enough to give me a ride back to my car at the church. I got home around 11:15pm that night and I was beat. I passed out around midnight, but not before setting my alarm.
*** BJ's and Jess's Weekend Wedding Bonanza sans The Gathering 2007 ***
- Sunday, June 24, 2007
I had my alarm set for 10am. I got up around 9:30am. There was a post wedding celebration at Jess's parent's house at noon where my presence was requested.
I got to their house around 11:54am, and was the first groomsman there. BJ and Jess weren't there yet, but thankfully showed up 5 minutes later.
We had all the left over food from the wedding to eat, which was probably more delicious the next day. We played washers and horseshoes outside, while drinking beers and bullshitting, talking about how well the wedding went and how much fun everyone had.
People didn't stay very long, but I helped clean up and left around 4pm. I took the rest of the day to relax after the crazy and fun weekend that I just experienced.
Great job to all the groomsmen who helped make the weekend so memorable. Congratulations to BJ and Jess, whom I love and respect with all my heart.
Hopefully, next year I'll get to experience The Gathering experience in Chicago.
We hope so too.
I asked a question previously but forgot to include my email. lfrisone@comcast.net
See, you CAN find the time to stop back here occasionally...
Saturday, June 23, 2007: Day Two of Gathering of the Gargoyles
After I was done typing up my journal for yesterday around 1:30am in the morning, I ended up staying up until about 4:30am watching stuff on You Tube. I also did some reading of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. I've read all the books before, but since the 7th and final Harry Potter book is coming out in a few weeks, I thought I'd better refresh my mind by reading all the books over again. I also want to remember what happened in the 5th book because the 5th movie is coming out soon too. I don't want to sound like I'm a big Harry Potter fan, because I'm not the biggest Harry Potter fan out there, I just like the story. Have you read any of them? Anyways, I went to bed around 4:30am and didn't wake up until 11:00am, which I'm shocked I got away with. My mom usually makes sure my sister and I are awake by 10:00am at the latest. After I woke up, my sister and I got ready to go back down to the church building to help decorate the high school room with a couple other people. Since it's the summer time and people are doing a lot of stuff, only 2 other people showed up to help. So all together it was my sister (Kay), D.C., Fizz, (all nicknames in case they have a problem with me putting their names on here) and me. First, we played a couple rounds of ping-pong (play before work… it's out of order, I know…) to get ready for ping-pong at camp next week and then we went to work on the high school room. I'm not in the high school class, and neither is D.C., so we didn't really know what needed to be done in there. First we had to take down all the old stuff in the room. Then we called up a guy that teaches in there to get some ideas, and since they weren't solid ideas and just some thrown out there suggestions, I decided to go with the theme of going down the path of righteousness or going down the path that rocks (the path that rocks, being the one that shouldn't be chosen… I'll explain). We used Kronk from the Disney movie The Emperor's New Groove (Kronk is my favorite good guy Disney character ever) and used his shoulder angel and devil's line "He wants to lead you down the path of righteousness… I want to lead you down the path that rocks…" We had to enlarge a picture of Kronk on a light projector on a wall, which took forever, and then we had to outline him again in marker. Then we had to make speaking bubbles for them to talk. It took up a lot of time, and we still didn't get it all finished. Half of it is done, but we'll have to finish the rest next week.
Everyone was hungry and since I hadn't eaten anything all day, I was ready to choose a place and go there… except that no one could agree on anything. Around 4:30pm we finally left in my car, me driving of course, and headed to Subway in the mall. I will say that I advertised the Gathering of the Gargoyles while at Subway by telling my group that it was going on this weekend. D.C. has seen gargoyles and knew what I was talking about, and Kay, being my sister, knew about it too, but Fizz needed some informing about it. After eating (I had a BLT… I think it's funny when you ask for a BLT and they still want to know if you want lettuce and tomato on the thing…) we went into Borders, which is part of the mall, and I ended up running into someone I went to high school with. She was really nice and told me we should get together and do something next week, yet the problem is that I don't know where I put her phone number… Kay, D.C., and Fizz took off into the mall while I was talking with the girl and I had to call Kay to find out where they went. They ended up wasting money on a claw machine, gave up, and used the rest of their change buying candy. Fizz had to go home, so we left the mall and I dropped her off. Kay, D.C., and I didn't want to go home just yet so I spoke up and said we should go to Cold Stone (It's funny how that's the name of that gargoyle in Gargoyles) because I love their ice cream. We went there and I bought a Peanut Butter Cup Perfection… oh, that's living (I LOVE peanut butter). I couldn't finish it and had to throw half of it away. After that we went to Best Buy, which is right behind the Cold Stone. We played some video games and browsed the DVD isles. After that, we went to Game Stop, which is across the street from Best Buy. The same video game we'd been playing at Best Buy was also at Game Stop, so we played it again just for kicks. We left there and D.C. got the call from home that he had to go home. We drove to the other side of town to drop him off and were invited to see either Dream Girls or Epic Movie with him and his sister, but Kay called our house and our dad said we needed to get back home to get packed for Disneyland (we're leaving Sunday to go down there).
We left D.C. and Peaches (his sister) and got home around 7:00pm. Mom and Dad weren't around so we started watching the movie the Pacifier (which wasn't that great). Our parents finally got home after being at Walmart buying stuff for our trip to Disneyland and California Adventure. My dad sat down to watch the end of the movie with us while my mom printed out pictures from Kay's 16th birthday party 3 weeks ago. My mom needed to clear her camera of pictures so she can take some when we go to Disneyland. My mom gave up on the picture printing thing and told my sister to continue it, but Kay ended up getting me to do it while she took her shower. I ate an apple and listened to music on the Cinemagic channel. They were playing music from the soundtrack of Braveheart. Once Kay was done in the shower, she took over printing pictures and I went to my room to check up on my e-mails online. I wrote back to my cousin who lives in Colorado and then checked up on stuff in ASKGREG. After that, I wrote this. So now that I'm caught up, I'm going to sign off. I probably won't get any more journals in until the middle of the week, seeing as we're leaving for Disneyland today (it's just past midnight) and won't get back home until either Tuesday or Wednesday. Now, I'm going to blow dry my hair and then get to bed so I'll be good and awake for church in the morning.
Thank you for your time and all that you do.
-Charisma82
I have read, watched and largely enjoyed the Harry Potter books and films with my family.
Hey! Wow, has it already been a year since the last Gathering? It feels like just a while ago. Sadly, just like last year, I was not able to make it to the Gathering of the Gargoyles. I'm not as crushed over it as I was last year, or the year before that, or the year before that… but still, I figure that I will get to one of them one of these days, so keep having them, and I'll hopefully turn up some day. I didn't do a pre-gathering journal yesterday because nothing really happened yesterday. So here it goes for the first day of the Gathering of the Gargoyles (from the point of view of someone not being there)…
Friday, June 22, 2007: The First Day of Gathering of the Gargoyles
Today started way too early for me. All of my days for the past 4 weeks have started too early for me. I signed up for a summer class and was fool enough to sign up for a class that started at 7:00am. I've been waking up a little bit before 6:00am every morning because the school is in a different town and I have to drive a while to get there. I am definitely not a morning person. I'm used to going to sleep late and waking up late. I've been forcing myself to go to bed at midnight so I can be awake enough for the class every morning. But fortunately for me, today was my last day, so I no longer have to wake up so early. Actually, besides waking up early, I really liked the class. It was an English class that dealt with a lot of literature, which I enjoyed. We read a lot of short stories, poems, and a few plays in the class. The teacher even showed us the play "A Midsummer Night's Dream" on video that was made back in the 30's. I really liked it and was able to keep up with the names, mainly because of watching Gargoyles for as long as I have been. Since today was the last day, we had a final. We had to write a paper in class about 1, 2, or 3 different pieces of literature we'd read in class and connect them together to make a common point. I chose the poem entitled "The Ruined Maid" by Thomas Hardy and the play entitled "Overtones" by Alice Gerstenberg and talked about how moving up in social class isn't what makes a person happy, which I proved with the two pieces of literature that I chose. There was more to it, but I'm not going to get into all of that here. We were supposed to write out the paper by hand in MLA format in ink. I decided to write it out in pencil first so I wouldn't make mistakes on my final copy. Because I did this, I took up the entire 2 hours, continuously writing. My hand felt like it was going to fall off once I was done. Though it took me a lot longer to write the paper twice, I was glad I did. I didn't have any mess ups on the final draft. I was very fortunate that my paper was only 6 pages long, because that's all the paper I had on me. I couldn't afford to make mistakes.
After I finished there, I headed home (and got to hear Fuel's song "Hemorrhage" which I rocked out to). I got home just as my mom and sister went off to work. I got on the computer to do my usual rounds of checking up on e-mail and looking at my usual websites (including, of course, ASK GREG). After that, I sat around the house for a while before I became tired and knew I had to get a nap in if I wanted to last the rest of the day. I slept for about 3 hours and got up around 4:30pm to 5:00pm.
Around 6:00pm, my family (my parents and younger sister) and I took off for Family Fun Night at our church. Before we got there, we stopped by Carl's Jr. for some dinner. I didn't eat much since I wasn't feeling that great. We got to the church building a bit before 7:00pm and were the first ones there. After waiting for about 20 minutes, we had more people show up. We played cards and ping-pong. I've decided that I need to start playing ping-pong every day until next week when I go up to camp. I say this because one of the main sports up at camp is ping-pong and I found out how much practice I need when playing it tonight. I think the most fun game with ping-pong is Around the World in which a bunch of people line up around the table and take turns hitting the ball back and forth. It's not as easy as it sounds or looks. After ping-pong, about six of us decided to play hide-and-seek walky-talkies (which is basically hide-and-seek with a set of walky-talkies in the mix). That was fun. It's not so easy when the entire building is pitch black dark and you can't turn lights on. I have the best hiding spot in a closet under a set of stairs that no one ever wants to look in because there is so much junk in there and it is very dark. I was really mad when one of the younger girls decided to hide with me then decided not to because she was afraid of the dark, and then told everyone where I was once she herself was found. Now that my hiding spot has been blown, I have to find some other great hiding spot. Anyways, we ended up leaving there around 9:45pm.
When we got home, Dad really wanted to watch the baseball game that had the Colorado Rockies in it because he grew up in Colorado. He was sad when they lost at the very end of the game (sorry if I ruined that for anyone… I hope I didn't). My mom and I played Mancala (a game played with flattened marbles and a wooden board…I don't know how else to describe it) while we watched some show on the top 10 funniest women ever. It wasn't that great of a show, but there was nothing else on that the family could agree upon to watch (my mom, sister, and I wanted to watch Pirate Master, a show we got hooked on at the beginning of summer break, but my dad put his foot down and said no). My parents went to bed around 11:30pm and my sister and I stayed up to watch the AFI's top 100 movies in the past 100 years that we'd recorded on Tivo earlier in the week. It was good. We didn't know about half the movies in the countdown, but were excited to see the ones we did know. It finally ended around 1:30am. My sister went to bed, and now I'm in my room typing this.
So all in all, this was actually a busy day compared to the past couple of weeks around here. I wish I could say that I watched Gargoyles so it would seem that I'm keeping the spirit of Gargoyles alive during the Gathering of the Gargoyles (since I'm not there), but I'm too tired to start watching one of them. I'd probably fall asleep while my eyes burned trying to keep awake. Maybe tomorrow I'll do some Gargoyle watching…
Thank you for your time and all that you do.
-Charisma82
Hardy's "The Mayor of Casterbridge" (I hope I'm spelling that correctly) is one of my all time favorite novels.
Dear Greg,
I have been meaning to write you this comment for a very long time. It seems that the longer things go on, the more my life parallels things you presented on Gargoyles. Not everything mind you, haha, but somethings certainly strike a new chord than when I watched the show at 13.
To start this off, on Sept. 28th, 2005 my mother passed away. It was hard but my sisters and I got through it. Eventually around the holidays, both my sisters left for verying educational pursuits while I was tasked with taking care of our home. This officially happened in January 2006. I thought I could handle it but all of a sudden the sheer realization that I was all alone in my childhood home ( save our 2 cats and a dog) became too much to bare.
Eventually I started feeling like I was losing myself. Well this went on for a few weeks then a month or so like this and then early february, our heat went out. I had no job then and I couldn't afford the bill. It just so happened this was the coldest time of the winter that this occured.
Anyway, my little sister was attending Indiana University at the time, got wind of the situation and arranged to get me out of there, to stay the night with a family friend. I had known this family for years and I didn't want to burden them. Nor did I want to abandon my pets to the cold. So in an insane headspace I told my sister no. That I was not leaving.
Long story short I left my house that night and stayed a few days with the friends mentioned above. Here is the kicker... this is the only Gargoyles reference I have made so far but I hope if I illustrated the story well enough you see the similarities already..
When I got to my friend's home they set me up on the couch and gave me free reign over the TV. I turned to Toon Disney knowing Gargoyles would be on soon, and you know what episode was running that night? HAHA, you guessed it, Enter Macbeth.
My little sister convinced me it was suicide to stay at my home, and I ended staying with family friends that were truly more like extended family. Hudson's line struck a deep chord.. "Where we can be together and safe" It wasn't my house I was protecting, althought I thought so.. I was protecting what I felt was all I had left. Eerily similar.
In any event, I felt I would pass that along. I won't be able to attend Pigeon Forge but now I live in Chicago, so I hope to see you next year!
Peace, Love, and Empathy,
Justin M. Lindley
Hey Justin,
Condolences. And I'm glad in some small way we were able to help. And I look forward to seeing you in Chicago.
Hello Greg. I read the last post and this indeed is my real name if curious " Cedric franklin kaili Calles " Proud Scott/Irish man. When I was younen I enjoyed watching your "Gargoyles" very much. I was fasinated of medievil times. Where times of honor, glory, and magic lived in those mystical ages. Atlass when I saw the last episode and the unfortunate fate awaited for Goliath and his clan. I was bloody mad at the end and later cried. Hours passed and I began to think, the cartoon era was changing and were losing their ways. A New Era of twisted cartoons that contained stories of no moral, ideas, or reasoning to the common sense and violence to the extreme beyond of comprehision, strange ideas of doing wrong was right, and the idea of its ok to be stupid or do stupid things as a normal daily life, was born. Which comes to my question...
Do you believe it was the right call for " Gargoyles " to end as it was to be saved from the New Era of Corruption, keeping its Orgin?
My final question, why did you not make a book out of it? To open a world of their world to ours.
I'm not sure I understand the question, Cedric. I'm wondering which "end" you saw. Hunter's Moon? Or the end of Goliath Chronicles? I hardly think our ending (Hunter's Moon) was twisted or promoted the notion that doing wrong is right. Quite the reverse. So when you throw out phrases like "New Era of Corruption" or "keeping it's Origin", I don't quite know what to make of it all.
As for your final question -- sigh -- asked and answered many, many times. I'd love to turn it into a book. Just need a publisher.
Way back in October 2005, the day they released the cover art for the second DVD set, I watched a bunch of episodes instead of doing my homework and typed up my musings on them (mostly on Hunter's Moon and the Goliath/Elisa relationship) in my livejournal. Today I'm *still* trying to avoid my homework, and the queue is open again, so I thought I'd dig up those old musings and get your opinion on them (I may have posted something like this in the CR once as well; my apologies if you happened to catch it there). So here they are. I wrote:
"At the end of HM3, Elisa and Goliath finally get some "resolution" to their relationship. The infamous kiss it took us (and them) 65 episodes to get to. I hate to call it resolution at all because it doesn't really resolve anything; their relationship is still in a pretty uncertain place and kissing hardly changes that. But it's the first time they both admit what's going on between them and do something, however small, about it. And it provided some small measure of satisfaction for the fans, who were just beginning to realize that was all we were going to get. I remember being so hopeful, so excited, 13 years old, watching in awe as finally, *finally* the two of them "got together." I hadn't realized it was the season finale, although really it was pretty obvious (I didn't know cartoon shows *had* season finales). And I certainly hadn't realized it was, for all intents and purposes, the end." [Of course, I know now what I didn't know in October 2005-- it wasn't the end! We have a comic book!]
"But I digress. Anyway, I noticed two things today. First, in HM1, during the scene on the subway: after he dispatches the muggers, Elisa goes to Goliath, lays her head down on his chest, and says, "Nobody messes with my best friend." I always thought that was kind of a dangerous thing to say in public, although sweet. But I noticed today the way that Goliath reacts to it. Maybe I never noticed before, or maybe I just don't remember, but he reaches to touch her hair and then stops himself, grimaces, and pulls away. It happens so quickly it's easy to miss it. But something about that aborted gesture of affection really intrigues me.
"Did he stop because he thought she wouldn't appreciate the sentiment? Haven't we seen him touch her that way before? It's hard to remember because the two of them get so very few explicitly affectionate moments. There aren't a lot of episodes that deal with them. (The most obvious is The Mirror, but that was so long before this that it's hard to use it as an indication of their relationship now. Although there is that moment, while Demona and Puck are spying on them via the mirror, when Elisa sort of nuzzles her face into Goliath's shoulder. I'd love to know what the conversation was that led her to do *that*...) Their relationship is very clear to the viewer, but it's also very understated. Any romantic moments like that are part of some larger scene, some larger conversation, etc. (I was half-convinced, when I was a kid, that it was because Disney didn't want to deal with the xenophilia aspect. Now I can see that it's in character for them to act that way; both of them know what's going on but they can't admit it, can't act on it because they're certain there's no future in it. But when you're 12-13 years old you miss some of the subtler points <g>.) So, while I can think of romantic moments between Goliath and Demona, MacBeth and Gruoch, etc, Goliath and Elisa are much more subtle than that.
"So then I went picking through episodes looking for Goliath/Elisa moments. (Aren't they cute in Eye of the Beholder, dancing in their Halloween 'costumes'? Even the trio notices. "They should have Halloween more often.") As early as Awakenings 5, we see Elisa take his face in her hands. The closest embrace I can find is in Heritage, after Elisa's disappearance. They both look pretty happy to see each other there, and she doesn't show any reluctance to touch him or be held by him.
"So anyway, it could be because he thinks she won't appreciate the gesture. She has shied away from discussing their relationship in the past. Or it could be because they're in a train full of people (although, again, she's pretty much given them away to everyone on the train already).
"Or it could be because he doesn't want to let himself touch her? Because letting himself caress her hair (the gargoyle equivalent of a kiss, even if Elisa doesn't necessarily know that) means pretending, if only for a moment, that they have a relationship? And because he can't stand doing that to himself over and over again? Something to think about, anyway.
"The other thing that I noticed was that, although Goliath saw Elisa kiss Jason and heard what she said about her feelings, she doesn't know that. As far as she knows, nothing between them has changed since HM1. Obviously they're both happy to see each other after Jason rescues her (although Goliath is probably "happier" than Elisa is; at least, she didn't think he was dead). But nothing has happened, to her knowledge, to bring things between them to a head. So why does she finally decide to admit her feelings to him? Her dialogue doesn't really tell us anything, either. He says, "So... Things have come full circle," and Elisa replies, "Somehow, they always do. You know how I feel about you, right?" She brings it up apropos of nothing. (He doesn't seem startled by it, either. Why is that? I sure as heck was!)
"Is it her relationship with Jason? The realization that, even when presented with someone human who seems to be everything she's looking for (at least at first), she still wants Goliath? When offered the normal life she thinks she wants, she still chooses Goliath and the clan, and all the uncertainty and upheaval they imply. Is that it? Of course, they've had a traumatic couple of days, and that could be a reason all by itself."
At that point I decided that I'd spent way too much time analyzing things and that I really ought to be doing work, so I stopped. But I'm still intrigued by it all. I guess if I had to distill it down into a few questions, they would be:
1) Is there a reason for Goliath's gesture (or lack thereof) on the train, or am I thinking too hard/paying too much attention to tiny details?
2) Does Elisa know that touching hair is the gargoyle equivalent of a kiss? (Maybe not in so many words, since I doubt the gargoyles think of it in terms of how their gestures of affection are equivalent to human gestures, but does she realize the sort of underlying meaning of a touch like that?) And if so, how does she know? Just from observation and intuition? Did someone tell her?
3) Why does Elisa finally speak up at the end of HM3? What changes her mind about keeping quiet?
Thanks for listening to me ramble on a bit, and for taking the time to answer our questions. It's only out of love that we analyze every aspect of things :)
1. I think all your thoughts are right on target, and the gesture (or lack thereoff) was certainly intentional on our part.
2. She does by now, yes. Whether she did then... I'd have to look again.
3. Events. Momentum. Passion. Change. Or whatever you decide.
I liked your ramble, btw.
Most of us have been talking about the yet to be released Volume of Gargoyles, whether it's in the comment room or submitting in the Ask A Question. I do agree that that the Disney blaming has gone overboard at times (I'm guilty of it as well). I can't speak for everyone of course, but I'm going to do my best to describe why we tend to blame the company so to speak (I know you don't mean any offense). Since, you have more business experience than some of us, your POV would be helpful.
1. Again part of the reason why we aren't seeing anymore DVDs are lack of purchases from the previous sets. Yes part of it is due to lack of sales, but also lack of advertising. It's not just DVDs, but with say network television (Not just with Disney). Aside from quality there are many reasons a show would turn up with low ratings, like:
- Lack of commericals, hence the viewer doesn't know it exist.
- The show is aired so much that the viewer gets tired of it, or so little they don't have a chance to draw in fans. Odd thing about that is that a particular program is aired constantly when it only has 13/26 episodes, yet when/if it has 65-78 episode, then it's not aired so often. Should be the other way around.
- The show is aired in a timeslot that most people don't watch.
It just seems like the higher ups don't really understand their audience, or they do but don't want to take responsibility. After all, admiting to a mistake is viewed by some to be a sign of shame and humiliation rather than being responsible.
1a. Also, with the comics, I heard sales lowered for #3. That's due of course to lack of a consistant release. My question is if Disney will acknowledge that lower sales are due to delaying approval, or will they assume that the comic itself is the problem. You can count on us hardcore (in my case semi-hardcore) fans to stick with it to the end, but as has been said in the comment room newcomers or casual buyers are going to be put off by the delays if it keeps up. Regardless, I'm trusting that the situation should improve.
2. Then there's the concept of money. It seems like the higher ups in the business never heard of the saying "You have to spend money to make money". It just seems like with any product (DVD, Comics, etc) they expect to make a fortune by investing a few cents (not literaly mind you).
2a. I know that companies like Disney are in the business to make money and I repsect that. The problem is it seems their ambition is more of an obsession. For instance, I know that you're sure as heck not doing all of this work for free, but for you the money isn't a one-tracked mind thing. Same could be said of folks like Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, Tom Defalco, Peter David, Steve Loter, Mark McCorkie, Bob Schooley.
I really hope this came across as a constructive complaint, rather than a mindless hatefilled rant. After all, I'm not always good at using the right words, to voice my opinion.
You're preaching to the converted, but there is an element of naivete here. Marketing costs money. Disney has LITTLE evidence that they can make much money off of Gargoyles relative to what they could make off of, say, Power Rangers. So they are less inclined to spend the FINITE amount of money they have to promote a product which will without a doubt be profitable, but which without a doubt won't be AS profitable as others they might release. That's called "Opportunity cost".
Gargoyles was a good bet for them, when (a) it seemed that the fans would do all the marketing work for them... making the release very inexpensive and (b) the sales seemed relatively high... making the profit margin relatively high. But when the fans do NOT do the marketing for them and when the sales aren't high, then Gargoyles seems like less the good bet.
Again, I'm not saying that the marketing SHOULD be the fans responsibility. I'm simply saying that if the fans do not take responsibility, then no one will.
Companies don't have obsessions. People do. Individuals run companies, which is why as companies have employee turnover, the character of the place and the opportunites shit and alter. But comparing Peter David with "DISNEY" is truly comparing apples and ... I don't know... steam engines.
So in the end, yours is NOT a "constructive complaint". (Though it's not a hate-filled rant either.) It's just a complaint. Period. And you're entitled to complain. Believe me. But now that you've complained, the question is both individually and collectively, what's your NEXT move? Just more complaining? Or do you want to find a new way to help us SPREAD THE WORD?
Hi again Greg,
not a question really, but I recently read an older post of yours where you explain your negative opinion about "Return of the Jedi" and the confrontation between Luke and the emperor in particular. Since you sometimes ask your fans to ramble too, here's why I think this is one of the best standoffs in the history of movies:
THE EMPEROR:
High class villain. Fragile, feeble, understated. Gives definition to "sinister", implies awesome aura.
And witty! Usually, when Good Guy (James Bond, Superman, Elisa) is at the mercy of Bad Guy (Blofeld, Lex Luthor, Demona), isn't Bad Guy all outspoken and arrogant, but alas, Good Guy always has wittier deliveries, better puns etc.?
Whatever Luke throws at him, Palpatine's got the retorts. "Your arrogance is your weakness", says Luke. Any other villain would now start throwing around threats, acting all superior, unwillingly confirming the statement. Not Palpatine. He's even kind of agreeing by saying "The trust in your friends is yours." And Luke is speechless.
THE DARK SIDE EXPLAINED:
For two and a half movies, we've been lectured constantly on how fear and anger lead to the dark side. Morale, good and evil, yadda-yadda. Always play nice. Yeah, as if it matters. Power is power, right?
Suddenly, it does matters and the concept becomes tangible: Vader threatens Luke's sister, and boy does Luke get mad. And powerful! No finesse anymore, just sheer rage. It's filmmaking at its best! Listen to the choir. Watch how this outlashing is not strung out to minutes. It's a matter of seconds, the point is made.
FORCE LIGHTNING:
Eventually, Luke spares Vader. Luke states: "I'm a jedi.", again no threats from the emperor, just acknowledges the fact: "As you wish, jedi." And then, he tells Luke how puny he is. And shows him.
Unfortunately, the climax that these force lightings represent don't come across anymore because they have become common through the videogames, not to say Ep. II and III where they are used without abandon.
No intent to argue. Just my ramble, really. :-)
No intent to argue back, but I just don't see those scenes that way at all. I thought they were awful and that the Emperor was one of the worst villains I can recall. But I'm happy to admit that that's just my opinion.
I figured I'd better separate this into two posts. I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate your comments to Vaevictus Asmadi about the creation of Gargoyles. I personally am a Creationist (Intelligent Design Theorist to be PC *Chuckles*) And I find that very few people actually respect my beliefs and I am very surprised and grateful that you are. I of course know that I'm vastly outnumbered in the fandom, and I know that you are not a creationist, but it means a lot to me that there is someone in Hollywood who acknowledges that there are creationists in their fandoms and haven't writen any "Travel to the Time of The Dinosaurs" stories (Mind you I believe in Dinosaurs, I just don't buy the 65 million years, We creationists call them Dragons)
Gargoyles have wings, and thus were made on day 5, (Putting them before humans on day 6, and thus they are still the first race even to us creationists) Once again, I thank you for respecting my beliefs.
Rock On-Chip
Hmmm... well, I definitely respect your BELIEF. But I'm not sure ultimately if you'll think I'm respecting your BELIEFS. But I guess only time will tell...
Hi Greg, I'm back again.
I've been doing my best to spread the word about Gargoyles - I've told people about the comics, the DVDs, and the Gathering - I've even managed to bring a couple more people into the fandom by loaning them the DVDs - they were hooked from Awakenings.
Since December, I've managed to get the first two issues of the comic - would have gotten the third today, but I couldn't make it to my comic store. Hoping to get it Friday.
I loved the first two issues - and the fact that I already knew the story in them did absolutely nothing to reduce the pleasure I derived from them. I may or may not go into a more detailed review after I get the third ish.
Anyhow, I've spent the past three months watching my DVDs (the Toon Disney airing keeps moving to less and less convenient time slots, and on some level, I wonder if they're TRYING to get bad ratings for it), and have come up with a few questions/comments - but I don't want anything to be dropped from Ask Greg, so they won't be submitted now.
I'm trying like mad to make it to The Gathering this year - Pigeon Forge is the closest it's ever been, and I don't know how long before it comes close enough for me to attend again (limited budget, can't afford air fare). If I can make it, I hope to see you there.
Hope to see you there also. And I do appreciate the efforts you've been making to spread the word.
I would like to (once again) disabuse everyone of the notion that Disney is TRYING to sabotage the property. That's just nonsense. (I realize you were half-kidding, but people might take the notion seriously if I let it stand unchallenged.) You can accuse Disney of at worst, benign neglect. They may not have exploited the property to the extent that you and I and the hardcore fans would like, but they are not, have not and will never intentionally sabotage it. Disney, as a company, is out to make money. Sabotaging their assets is not a path to making money.
Hello Again Greg,
I am trying 110% to keep this post friendly, and I will. More in light of a post some ways below mine, I'd like to thank and congratulate you and the rest of the producers for putting in so many "non-white" people, particularly black people. As a young black girl growing up with this series, it was exciting to see characters who looked like me and that wasn't token or there just to be the stooge to a lead white male (Power Rangers come to mind). In fact in retrospect I remember being surprised to find that Elisa was black! It seemed so odd and now I realize that it because we as children of color are conditioned to feel that inferiority when there are not any heroes or led characters for us to look to. Despite seeing Elisa's mother in the episode "Deadly Forces" later I almost couldn't still fathom that she was black. It's hard to articulate.
Having grown up in the Bay Area, just about the most diverse place in America aside from New York, I am more than used to seeing so many people of color in important positions, hearing so many different languages, and meeting so many people from other backgrounds. However, going away to college I realized that much of the world was not so fortunate as I to have known many lawyers and doctors of color. Therefore, you have no idea how I commend you for being to only show to this day I can think of that put a bi-racial or black female in a lead role without trying to cater to the black demographic. If only through Gargoyles, some kids could be introduced this possibility and not have their only concept of black people being through stats like "You have to ackknowlege that American Blacks have an IQ of 85 compared to a white IQ of 100, Blacks commit over half of the crimes in the USA," however true or untrue that is. It's saddens me when I meet white people who are either scared of me or have to prove to me that their not racist by rattling off the Black history they do know. I wish the media had more of us portrayed like Elisa who doesn't have to roll her neck to show that she is very aware of her blackness but more specifically her Nigerian Ancestry. She's assertive without being "ghetto" or loud. She's beautiful and sexy without being easy. Sadly, as a young black woman I find it's what people expect of me-that if I get angry I will smack my lips or snap my fingers, or they really want to know what I'm like at second base but they won't ask in front their friends- because they think of some Ying Yang Twin videos over Heather Headley videos, and they've never met black people outside of TV while growing up in white suburbia. If only there were more Elisas…
Also, I loved that Elisa looked different from the typical black person on TV. I find that we are actually the most diverse looking group of people on this planet, but actresses in Hollywood are always made to look darker if they are light-skinned like Elisa, or else they just aren't cast. Terrence Howard is the only light-skinned man in the business I can think of who has made it, but no women. And just for the record light-skinned people are not as few and far between as other races think. I had this discussion in one of my high school classes. My classmates tended to think you had to be mixed like Elisa to be light-skinned which is not the case. (I can trace my lineage back six generations on my mothers side to the slave ships, but the only person of another race was one of my great-great grandmothers, and Indian woman. Yet, Two of my dad's sisters, My mom's one sister, is lighter, and three of my grandma's sisters are light skinned like Elisa. It just happens.) I'm glad Elisa just didn't have to have big lips, a broad nose, an afro, and dark brown skin. Even though that's fine because it's kind of how I look, the media has this one image of how we all look in every cartoon, but she's a contrast for my auntie, and two of my best friends.
Finally, I'm glad black men get good treatment. Derek was a righteous, and good cop, a man looking to define himself outside of his parents. He reminded me of my cousins. Hudson's blind friend was intelligent and believable. Thank you for showing that not all black men wind up in prison. And though Glasses did go to prison, as the other poster pointed out he was the right hand man. In my studies as a Psychology major it may be several reasons for the fact so many of us go to prison rather than college, but it shouldn't be assumed blacks are inherently more dumb or evil. Could it be that more people of low socio-economic situation can't afford the best lawyers therefore if caught won't be aquitted as easily as whites? Yes. There are several reason in fact.
I don't feel that putting people of color has made this show somehow prejudice against white. Matt is very competent; I love him! Macbeth, despite his wicked schemes, is very honor-bound, and several of the World Tour episodes highlighted whites of Europe playing the hero. Likewise having Captain Chavez be a woman no more demeans men of strong positions on some fallacy of man-bashing feminism.
All that said it isn't likely that a ninja would be black. I had more problems with the fact that every time we see an Asian on TV they tend to know Karate or else can't speak proper English. But as a whole, Bushido and all the other episodes that visited other nations I felt treated the cultures with respect and beauty. The show found the magic in these culture reminding us that Medieval Europe is not the only place with magic and fantasy stories of interest. Can't say it enough-- Thank You, Greg.
You're very welcome. We were and are proud of the diversity in the show, not because we had an agenda per se, but because it better reflects the reality that I observe daily. So our agenda was honesty, I guess.
Mr. Weisman:
I don't have an actual question, I just want to say that the first episode of Gargoyles aired on my birthday (not my FIRST birthday, one of the ones that came later), so I wanted to thank you for the birthday present, Greg.
You're welcome. And Happy Birthday.
HUNTER'S MOON, PART ONE
The beginning of the end (so to speak…).
I have to say, GARGOYLES was the first animated series I remember that actually seemed to have "Season Finales"--it just made it that much more special for me.
The "HUNTER'S MOON" title font is in red (as opposed to the usual blue color). It really helps set this apart from the other episodes, and indicates that "Big Things" are about to happen in the world of the show (at least, to me). I have to ask, Greg, when did you guys decide to change the font color for this three-parter?
The re-made Gillecomgain sequence is cool, despite the erroneous use of Demona's older model. I always notice that Demona's line from CITY OF STONE ("That'll teach you humans to betray us") is shortened here to just "That'll teach you humans." Was that done for time, or just to avoid getting bogged down with trying to explain the reference?
I can't help but hold a bit of fascination for Gil's father. The guy is an unsympathetic jerk, but his attitude toward the idea of "a rogue gargoyle looking for food" surprised me. He doesn't seem to view them with any of the venom or disdain (or even wonder) that we've seen others show. In fact, (like your ramble says) he just seems to view such things as a part of life. He almost reminds me of a quote attributed to W. C. Fields, "I am completely without prejudice; I hate everyone equally" (quote approximate). I guess, in that way, I dislike him a little less than I do Gillecomgain and many of the other Hunter's.
Anyway, flash forward to the present and the subway.
Yes, I did recognize Elisa in her disguise--the outfit may have been different but I'd already seen Elisa in that blonde wig, and well, "Fool me once…."
The three muggers make another of their little appearances, this time with slightly different character models: trench coats just big enough to conceal weapons (I only point this out here because I didn't really notice it until I read your memos, Greg).
The one thug's line (when threatening Elisa) about settling for a "first date" made me raise my eyebrows a bit. It's another one of those suggestive lines, and for me actually helped add another layer of realism to the scene.
We get our little list of cameos on the train (complete with a bickering session between Margot and Brendan), and then the gargoyles arrive.
One thing I've always noticed about the subway fight sequence (aside from the brief shot of Goliath with grey eyes), is that the only gargoyles who engage in any action are Goliath (who does pretty much everything), Brooklyn (who tears a hole in the ceiling only to get a shot across his arm) and Angela (who glides down to assist Brooklyn). What were Broadway and Lex given to do in all this? Play "Rock, Paper, Scissors?" And they're even the ones crowing loudest on their way home ("Are we good or what?"--I wouldn't know since you didn't DO anything!). ;-)
The third mugger's voice seems to change. When he first spoke back in the subway station he's voiced by one guy (kind of sounds like Tom Wilson) but when he pulls his gun on Goliath ("Tough luck, handsome") he's voiced by another guy (sounds like Jim Cummings). Another one of those things I always seem to notice.
You mentioned Demona's change being a bit "anime" in your ramble, Greg, and I noticed that as well, but it wasn't the only bit of "anime-like" animation I remember. When Elisa delivers her "Just some concerned citizens…with wings" line (LOVE that, BTW) and continuing through the next scene up until the gargs' arrival at the Clock Tower, the animation always struck me as having a style similar to anime. Mostly it's their eyes; the way they blink and close.
At any rate, Greg, you guys definitely established the status quo of life being good for the gargoyles at this place and time. And I was even beginning to see the Broadway/Angela relationship. I know that my brother was one of those who followed the idea of Brooklyn/Angela, and Angela's tending Brooklyn's wounds probably helped convince him, but for myself I figured it would be Broadway and Angela as soon as I saw them roosting next to each other. That's right; POSSESSION didn't influence me one way or the other, but seeing the two of them in such close proximity convinced me they were going to be an item. Just the funny way my mind works, I guess.
Now we meet Jason for the first time (and he's revealed in almost the same manner Matt was back in THE EDGE), but Elisa's reaction could not be more different (it's actually a nice little comedic beat the way she shifts gears like she does).
During the conversation in the car, it's obvious (to me at any rate) that Jason was hiding something (this is based mostly on the way he sidesteps the question of where he transferred from). One thing I notice is that although he brings up the subject of urban myths, he never mentions gargoyles. This provides an intriguing contrast with Jon's approach, which I'll get to later.
During the robbery and its subsequent chase sequence, Jason does all the things we say cops should do in that situation--he shoots the flammable material, he shoots out the tire of the getaway van. The thing is, to me, this is a subtle indication that Jason is not a real cop. I don't know for certain, but I think discharging a firearm (shooting a gun) from a moving vehicle is technically against regulations. Of course, Elisa doesn't bat an eye, but this is the gal who walked right into the men's locker room.
There are some fun moments in the chase. Elisa muttering, "My mechanic's going to love this" when she starts to drive "off-road" (said mechanic will love all the bullet holes even less). Also, the stage coach horse understandably rears up as the two vehicles pass pretty much under it's bucking legs, but the stage coach driver isn't fazed at all. I guess it's just another day at work for him.
Eventually, the cops catch the bad guys (most of them, anyway) and the new partners compliment each other's respective abilities. Then Jason offers to buy Elisa a cup of coffee. I hear that, and I think to myself, "Uh-oh." Another guy might be coming between Goliath and Elisa (unknowingly, of course). Our heroes "calm bay" has started to develop waves….
Anyway, Robyn is interviewing over at Nightstone Unlimited. I always wondered why she singled out that company as the one to infiltrate. Maybe she caught rumors about Dominique Destine's never having been seen at night….
I can definitely see the idea of her as a female Owen: stoic demeanor, "pointed" face, blue eyes, blonde hair. Give her a pair of wire frame glasses and it'd be a perfect match!
And may I just say that I love Dominique's business dress. In fact, Demona presents herself very well as a businesswoman, except when she gets angry, of course (it's almost comical when she looks about ready to rip the burglar to pieces in her business suit).
And yes, her change kicks ass. I just wish the animators had remembered to leave off her tiara.
Is it just me, or is Act 2 of this ep shorter than usual? I swear it just seems to fly by.
I love the scene of Xanatos playing with Alex while being interviewed by Matt. I did believe Xanatos when he said DI-7 was a disinfectant--I had no reason to suspect him of ulterior motives at this point. Matt, of course, tries to give his best, "I'm a good guy who knows you're dirty" barb, but Xanatos just deflects it by asking his son, "Alex, can you say 'harassment?'" Alex babbles some baby talk, and Xanatos says, "I knew that you could." I love that little moment.
Goliath's reaction to Elisa's description of her new partner always intrigued me. When she's doing nothing but complimenting him, he's smiling, even seems somewhat amused, but when she tries to downplay it, his smile vanishes. He's able to pick up on her personality quirks. Seems like they're in a relationship to me!
The gargoyles seem to be going REALLY fast when they glide past camera on their way to their stakeout locations. Just something that really struck me this time.
But now we meet Jon, posing as a reporter for WVRN. He also seems to be trying to collect information on gargoyles, but he's nowhere near as subtle as Jason. "Gargoyles" are practically the first thing Jon mentions, and the only thing he talks about. No wonder Xanatos is so suspicious.
"If you brought them before me now, I'd happily pulverize them on the spot." It's a funny thing, but I while I still believed in Xanatos's truce with the clan, I never doubted that he would love another sparring match with them.
I am surprised that Jon managed to find a piece of stone skin at the Eyrie Building, though. I mean, what with the fights in CITY OF STONE, KINGDOM, and THE GATHERING that little piece must have been on a very remote corner of the Roof not to get picked up by a cleaning crew. (I'm sorry, I don't mean to nit-pick this much, but…well, there it is!).
The gargs run into trouble at each of their respective stakeouts. I did get the little moment where Lex and Broadway point at Brooklyn in answer to the question "Who wants to explain this to Goliath." As for the bit where Demona's particle beam rifle (or whatever) is able to puncture glass and an entire van, but fails to go through Brooklyn's car door shield…I can only guess that her first few shots had drained her rifle's power cell. It's not much of an explanation but it works for me.
I love the animation of Brooklyn and Demona's fight; it's short but the play of lighting when they're struggling in the foreground and the fire's burning in the background is just wonderful.
But while the Trio and Bronx are dealing with Demona, Goliath, Hudson and Angela face the new threat. As soon as the Hunter's appeared, and I noticed there were two guys and one gal, I pretty much figured out who they were. It is interesting, for me, to compare and contrast their suits. The predominant color scheme is black and red, with a bit of blue thrown in here in there. Actually Jon and Jason's suits are almost opposites in this regard (some of the pieces of armor the two suits share are blue on Jason's suit, and red on Jon's). Of course, another difference is the manner of gloves on the costumes. Jason is the only one to wear full gloves. Jon wears none, but has full sleeves while Jason goes bare-armed. Robyn has gloves, but they don't cover her fingers, and her upper arms are bare (it leaves me to wonder how worried they were about fingerprints). . Then there are the masks. The men have the same traditional Hunter's mask, but Robyn wears a modified version, with the mouth area bare and the hair free. She shows even more skin, actually, what with her bare midriff and all.
But here I am going over the differences in their wardrobe while they're giving our heroes a really hard time.
The weapons they use against the gargs indicate the time, training, and money they put into their hunt. Seriously, they've probably brought as much technology against the gargs as Xanatos ever did. I'm especially enamored of Raptor, the robotic bird that Jon had and which, unfortunately, gets destroyed and never seen again. I can't say for certain why I like it--it strikes me as a pointlessly complicated hunting implement. Actually, now that I think on it, Raptor is the perfect weapon for Jon--after all, he just tells the thing to attack and then stands passively back while the bird does all his hunting work, as opposed to Jason and Robyn who use their own weapons.
Just before he shoots Angela with the electricity thing, Jason looks at her and narrows his eyes. This leads me to believe that he knew, even before he fired, that she wasn't "the Demon."
Later, in the airship, when one of the Hunter's (Jon, of course) brought up that the "other gargoyles might not be" evil, I was fascinated by this dissension in the ranks, so to speak. I liked that one of the Hunter's was questioning the idea of "all gargoyles" being evil, and I thought that maybe at least one of the Hunter's would end up helping the clan.
Boy, did I pick the wrong Hunter (but that comes later). For now, though, Jason is blinded by his hatred against the gargoyles. Robyn, prudently enough, takes no part in her brothers' "disagreement."
I wasn't quite sure if you guys were going to kill off Angela or not. On the one hand, I felt that you guys had too much development invested in her character to just kill her off like that. Besides, there was no way BS&P would allow it. On the other hand, you guys had surprised me in the past….
And you surprised me here, too, when Goliath swore vengeance on the Hunter's while glaring into the camera, saying, "…and I will KILL them." At that moment, I fully realized how rarely the word "kill" is used in American animation. GARGOYLES only used it once before, to my knowledge (DEADLY FORCE, where Broadway tells Goliath that he "can't kill" Dracon). Consequently, its use here had the desired effect; I knew that something had snapped inside Goliath, and he meant to do precisely what he said. Chilling.
All in all, an excellent start that left me eager for the next episode.
I honestly have no memory of changing the font color. It is, I suppose, easy enough to blame my color deficiency, but the truth is I can tell red from blue. Either it was a call made by our post-production supervisor, Jeffrey Arthur or by Producer/Director Dennis Woodyard (and I either approved or didn't notice) -- or by me and it's just been too long for me to recall that I made that call.
POSSESION
(Note: My ramble is a little patchier this time, most likely the result of spreading it out over a few days).
Puck gives Alex his first magic lesson, and Coldstone gets his personality problem resolved.
The opening in the Himalayas is pretty neat (I love how Coldstone takes out one robot by burrowing through the snow), and, personally, I'm kind of glad you guys didn't do the "Yeti" thing with him here (of course, I have no idea what would have happened in your lost "comic book story" set in the Himalayas (and all you've told us about it so far is that it takes place during the World Tour and features Coldstone) so I have no idea if you were going to do the "Coldstone-pretending-to-be-Yeti" thing or not).
One thing I noticed: the Steel Clan's POV shots are very different from how they were in the first season (there it was green night vision, here it's some sort of red vision). I guess I kind of like the style of the first season better there--just a personal preference.
One thing of note, this is the last appearance of the Steel Clan robots and Xanatos's gargoyle armor in the whole series.
Loved the "Bewitched" reference. Also loved the "gargoyle-teddy bear."
It would have been nice if the mention of the opera "Otello" had made it into the episode, but there's only so much time available.
Somehow, I kind of figured out who "Goliath" and "Hudson" really were before they revealed themselves. Although Puck may do a better Goliath than Proteus, he still doesn't sound quite like Goliath (and he smiles way too much). And, as soon as I guessed who "Goliath" was, it was fairly easy to deduce who "Hudson" was (and notice that he didn't say a word at all the whole time).
Actually, I was able to guess a lot about where things were going, especially when I heard about the "soul transference" bit. And as soon as Coldstone started working without any of his three souls, I kind of figured Puck was the one pulling the strings. Lex getting possessed I hadn't expected, but as soon as it happened, there was really only one character it could have been. And when Coldsteel and Coldfire were revealed, I kind of figured what the ending would be.
So, for me, this became more about character than plot. It was also a great way to listen to the actors performing a different character with the same voice. Kudos to the cast members for their wonderful work.
I, too, noticed that Desdemona seemed more reluctant than Othello to remain in their new bodies. Here, as in HIGH NOON and even in LEGION, she sometimes takes on the role of conscience and voice of reason for Othello. She compliments her mate very well.
And, as in those previous episodes (and RE-AWAKENING) Othello shows himself to be a little more selfish. In the end he tends to make the right decision (albeit with a fair amount of prodding). Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder if most people in the world aren't like Othello.
Great little moment: Othello/Broadway: "I had forgotten the warm touch of your hand…the sweet scent of your hair."
Angela/Desdemona: "But…it is not my hair."
And then Iago/Brooklyn arrives to whisper in their ears (isn't that what all Iagos do?). I love his little "Oh, yes, that's a plus" after Othello/Broadway talks about "the evil one" being gone.
Another note: at both the Clock Tower and Lady Liberty, when Broadway/Othello mentions "the evil one," the camera is on Brooklyn. I just noticed that here.
I love it how the ensorcelled Bronx just trots away and plops down next to the bound and gagged Lexington. It's just one of those cases where you can almost feel Lex's frustration.
Looking over your outline, Greg, I find myself rereading the ultimately discarded scene of Iago/Brooklyn hooking Lex up to a death trap and "telling his evil plot." Mostly just because of the brief bit of how he would "use his position as Goliath's right hand to destroy Goliath and rule the clan." I thought this extra bit of plotting was rather interesting because we know so little about Iago's goals beyond taking Desdemona.
Truth be told, he has always intrigued me because, in many ways he is the only "natural-born" evil gargoyle we've met so far in the series. I mean, we see Demona's tragic past and how she was "made a villain" so to speak; Yama was only misguided and foolish, but tries to repent; and Thailog (and even the rest of the clones) were more-or-less created to be what they became. Iago is the only gargoyle we know of who has been evil without any real explanation and for this reason (as well as the fact that he was a villain in their "old life" along with the Archmage) he fascinates me. I would have loved to see more of him in the "DARK AGES" spin-off, and I am hoping to see more of Coldsteel in the comic.
Overall though, comparing the outline to the episode, I'm kind of glad you guys just simplified beats 15 and 16. That added business about the Coldstone shell developing its own personality--while admittedly intriguing--was a bit superfluous (especially since we the audience already know Puck's behind it).
I love Lex's groan, "Twice in one night…". I feel sorry for the poor little guy-ensorcelled, jumped from behind, trussed up, and jumped from behind again! And after all that, he gets possessed himself! Of course, in this case, the new tenant is a pleasant one.
Iago/Brooklyn: "I'm sure she'll be heartbroken at first, but these new bodies should help ease the pain." For me, that is one of the most suggestive lines in the series. And hey, Iago knows how to say "good-bye" in French!
"By the Dragon!" This is the closest we get to any sort of "oath" in the series (well…there's "Jalapena" but I'm not counting that… ;-)). I still wonder what exactly this phrase is referencing.
Alex/Lex unties Hudson and Goliath, dropping them on their heads. Goliath's response: "Well, that's one way to do it." This stands out to me because it's one of the few times Goliath makes a joke or other humorous statement.
Othello/Broadway confronts Iago/Brooklyn by saying, "Brooklyn's body does not belong to you. Give it back!"
A rather hypocritical statement since he himself was seriously considering keeping Broadway's body a bare few moments ago. Now that I think of it, I wonder if Iago might not be referencing that when he retorts, "So that I can return to cyberspace or fade away into nothing? Is that the choice *you* were leaning towards?" Othello/Broadway looks like he's about to hit him, but then just drops him instead.
I love how Iago complains about Brooklyn's "fighting skills." If Iago's in control, shouldn't that mean it's Iago's fighting skills that are being used?
I was very pleased you guys got Coldsteel and Coldfire's voice-actors (Xander Berkeley and C.C.H. Pounder) to do the one or two lines each character had in their actual voice.
Brooklyn: "And this 'scrawny gargoyle' will be waiting!"
Reading over the outline, I was pleased you guys decided to have Brooklyn remember the experience. His line "I remember every creepy thing that jerk made me do" kind of highlights the sort of violation he must have felt at that. As a result, I'm left wondering how much the others remember of their possessions. Lex obviously seems to remember being inhabited by Alex, but what about Broadway and Angela? They did seem at least mildly surprised to "come back to themselves" while in an embrace (not that they seemed upset…).
Lex about Alex passing his lesson: "He had a little help."
I always took this to mean that Alex used Lex's language facilities (as well as motor skills) to properly cast the spell. But I wonder how well Alex understood what he was saying. As a child, I learned the Pledge of Allegiance word-for-word, but for years they were only a collection of words in a certain order. I never really thought about what they actually said. I wonder if it's the same for Alex and the spell.
I love Goliath's tired "Let's go home."
Going back to the outline again, beat 17 has Xanatos being momentarily surprised and/or confused by Owen's explanation that "the Coldstone dilemma has been solved." I never saw that in the actual episode myself. Actually, I've wondered if Xanatos's earlier "Bewitched" reference might not have been just a long shot by Xanatos of planting an idea in Owen's head. Of course, maybe I'm just giving Xanatos way to much credit on that score.
This is a good, solid ep all-around with great characters and performances.
Always take the outlines with a grain of salt, at least. Only the final episode is canon.
THE RECKONING
And once more, on with the Rambling!
I always found the revelation that this episode was originally supposed to be a two-part season finale kind of interesting. There certainly is a lot here that would work perfectly for a season finale (a mass battle between our heroes and their clones/counterparts, the actual meeting between Demona and Angela), and I will personally admit that I would have LOVED for this to have been a two-parter (there's just so much crammed into this one episode!). On the other hand, it is missing an element that I would consider important to any GARGOYLES season finale: Xanatos.
Sure, he would have been a bit superfluous to this ep, but considering that the season began with him as the "main villain" it seems only natural to me that he should play some part in any finale the season might have.
Anyway, onto the episode itself….
An interesting aspect about the episode's opening shot is that it changes to a POV shot through binoculars. Now, just who was spying on our heroes here? I would have to guess, Thailog, myself. Demona's already encased in her "clever tin can" robbing the Golden Cup (you'd think the government people running the place would realize that hiding in plain sight isn't working anymore).
Demona's exo-frame has a very unique design to it--bubble cockpit, hole for her tail, etc. It's also interesting just for the fact that this is the first time she's used it, and I find myself wondering why. Up until now, she's used spells, a poison dart gun, particle beam cannons, and occasionally a mace. Now here's the exo-frame. Part of the plan, maybe? Oh well, it makes for some great action.
Animation nit: Demona electrocutes Brooklyn, and the little electric aura stays around Demona for the remainder of the fight without seeming to affect anyone else. It is a bit distracting.
I have to admit, I did misread Angela's concern for Brooklyn here, a little bit. I realize I've used the excuse of "falling back on expectations for animated action/adventure shows" before, but it really is my chief explanation for misreading things like this.
I loved the tidbit about gargoyle culture concerning their punishments (nice to finally have that). And I was pleased that Brooklyn was the one who came up with a place to keep Demona, and I knew that it would involve the Mutates. But I didn't know it was the Labyrinth. Why? Because I had still not seen THE CAGE or KINGDOM by this point and had no idea it even existed. Consequently, this was my first view of the "new" Maggie, Claw and Fang (I had seen "new" Talon in UPGRADE). Somehow, I recognized that they were in the old Cyberbiotics underground lab. I also wasn't surprised to discover that one of the Mutates was a bad guy (I saw this coming since the scene in METAMORPHOSIS where the as-yet-unnamed-Fang indicated his enjoyment of his new body). Still, it always drove me crazy that I had missed out on those stories during their first run. Ah, well….
One thing that jumped out at me on this viewing was Elisa's line, "Do you know what you're committing yourself to?" in reference to guarding Demona. It is kind of easy to miss the sheer enormity of the task they are setting for themselves (guarding an immortal sorceress around the clock).
Angela wants to take the first watch--understandable, especially since she hasn't had the same experiences with Demona the others have. Goliath, just as understandably, tries to dissuade her, which only makes her angry. In the end, Hudson showcases why he's the "wise one" by giving Angela the first watch, but with an admonition that Demona "is capable of anything." And it is that warning that Angela flashes back to over THREE MONTHS LATER when she and her clan are facing certain death because of Demona.
When Demona awakens she leaps at Angela and latches onto the bars of her prison. Angela is understandably taken aback--Demona does indeed look ferocious. She's literally climbing the bars, snarling, wings flapping…but her eyes are not glowing. A subtle hint, perhaps, that this part, at least, is an act.
I do find myself thinking that Demona's disbelief over Angela's identity is more real than feigned, even if Sevarius has already clued her in about Angela's parentage. As you've said, Greg, knowing something and experiencing it are two different things.
At this point, Angela actually perks up and starts to tell Demona about Avalon, only for Demona to rant about humans stealing away "our children." Angela tries to disabuse her of that idea and explains that the Princess is a part of her clan "just as you are." It's almost sad how optimistic Angela is about Demona. I can almost hear Angela thinking to herself, "No matter what she's done, I know I'll be the one to redeem her."
Demona, starts trying to win over Angela, even trying to guilt her into it ("If you are *truly* my daughter…").
There is something a little melodramatic about all this…which makes it a wonderful moment when Fang interrupts the mood and observes "You chicks are better than soaps!"
I love the way Fang counts the days.
Demona unleashes the mosquito and suddenly the rest of the mosquito attacks from earlier in the episode take on a more ominous tone.
I loved seeing Sevarius again (why not, it's more Tim Curry!), but Thailog! Ah, that magnificent bastard. On my first viewing, I realized by this point that we would be taking on the clones of the rest of the clan, and was quite pleased by the prospect. A little…"shadow-boxing," shall we say, is always fun.
Actually, it's amazing how calm Sevarius seems around Thailog here, considering that the gargoyle tried to kill him the previous year. Amazing what a briefcase full of money can do. Of course, Sevarius offers the fruits of his experience about "programming" the clones, "Keep it simple. You don't want to end up with another you."
And during this time, Angela is trying to talk to Demona about the latter's crimes. I love Demona's line here: "How can you judge me? You have been hiding on a magical island while I have been living in the real world." Demona may be in the wrong about a LOT of things, but that is a pretty good point.
Demona starts to change (into a human), Fang rushes to watch and after it's over remarks, "Kinky." One would think he'd be used to it by now seeing as he's been her neighbor for FIVE WEEKS!! I guess, like Elisa's reaction to the gargs' awakenings, he never gets tired of it.
Now, I have to dwell on something about this episode that is real easy to miss. It takes place over the course of THREE MONTHS. That's actually a fair amount of time if you think about it. I find myself wondering about Demona and Angela's conversations, what things were like with the other gargoyles when they stood guard (particularly Goliath, Brooklyn and Hudson), Demona's full reaction to the Mutates (man, I would LOVE to see that) and about any of the adventures going on topside.
A lot can happen in three months…then again, a lot of nothing can also happen in three months.
Anyway, eventually the "breakout" occurs and even Fang gets freed. I love his reactions when he thinks Demona's going to fry him. Not just his lines (which are good and already transcribed elsewhere) but also the fact that he tries to hide under his bed sheet! And when Demona frees him, saying that "he's a fool but he might be useful" Fang immediately pipes up, "I can work with that!"
I am intrigued by what appears to be continued tension between Goliath and Talon. When the two track the escapees to the fun house, Goliath tells Talon to stay there while he goes to get reinforcements (I doubt Goliath realized he sounded like he was giving an order). Talon doesn't seem too happy about this arrangement, though he does make the best of it (scouting the place out). When I first saw this, I had left Talon still blaming the gargoyles for his mutation; so seeing them on friendly terms was a bit of a jump for me. This moment sort of "threw me back" as it were to the previous dynamic.
Anyway, our heroes make the classic horror movie mistake of splitting up to enter the not really deserted fun house, and they pay the price.
The clones themselves are a unique bunch in that they are not exact copies of the heroes, and I'm not just referring to coloring here. Burbank looks to have slightly broader shoulders and a narrower waist than Hudson, in addition to more hair and a longer beard (and a mace instead of a sword). Hollywood (and I just KNEW Broadway's clone would be named Hollywood) seems a bit larger than Broadway, and all the clones have bits and pieces of armor that the originals don't have.
Beyond that, the new clones are even different than Thailog. While Thailog may have different skin, hair, and even eye coloring (red instead of white corneas) than Goliath, his pupils are a natural black, his teeth a natural white, and his tongue and mouth a natural red/pink color. The new clones, however, have black teeth (indicative of a black skeleton), off-white pupils (indicative to me, at least, that they might literally see the world differently) and even discolored mouths. In this way, they are even more "freakish" than Thailog. I suppose it has to do with the fact that Thailog's gestation period was nearly a year, while these guys were rushed through in about three months or so.
But I digress….
The good guys are captured, and then shackled where they regain consciousness. Apparently, Thailog and Demona didn't want our heroes dead right away. Demona obviously wanted to show off her "new clan" (and turn Angela towards her side), while Thailog, I have come to believe, was testing Demona. After all, Angela didn't have to be first, and Thailog's little revelation that Demona knew about Angela since the beginning seemed to be a little too informative for it to have been accidental. This of course incenses Angela, who shows that she takes betrayal about as well as either of her parents.
"I hate you." Angela's eyes even glowed while she said it. And it really hurts Demona, who nevertheless will still not let Thailog kill her.
Delilah is revealed, and she is perhaps the most "normal" looking clone we have seen so far. I mean, not only are her teeth, mouth, and pupils the proper colors, even the corneas of her eyes are white! She looks more natural than Thailog, in other words. Since her gestation was the same as the rest of the new clones, I can only guess that Elisa's human DNA had something to do with this.
Leaving that aside for the moment, Delilah is a VERY attractive mixture of her two "mothers," and her very presence has offered us, the fans, endless speculations about Demona's reaction to her (a hybrid of herself and that most hated human) and Thailog's reasoning in creating her (a hybrid of the two loves of Goliath's life). I also love hearing Salli Richardson doing a gargoyle roar.
The worm turns, or in this case Demona does, and sets the heroes free while she goes after Thailog (who manages to do fairly well at first considering who he's up against). The rest of the heroes mix and match their enemies-the only "counterparts" who face off against each other are Talon and Fang (who inadvertently start the fire). An interesting bit here is that, while Talon's electric blasts are the usual blue/white color all the Mutates' blasts have been up to this point, Fang's are a more red/orange color. Not that I'm complaining, I actually kind of like the distinction from an aesthetic point of view (it's kind of like the color-coded lightsabers).
There are actually some fun, comical moments with the "clone wars." Hollywood's expression just before he crashes into the "test your strength" game, and Burbank and Brentwood's crashing into each other (it doesn't just work on robots!) are particular highlights (as well as Brooklyn's rather vehement "It's all over you…FORGERY!" to Malibu).
I do wish we had been able to see more of Angela and Delilah's "cat fight." What can I say; I can be a shallow guy sometimes.
Eventually, our good guys win, though Demona and Thailog do a "did they die?" disappearing act. The clones (who have some kind of slight reverb to their voice) are lost without the one their programming tells them to obey, and the gargs aren't comfortable around them, so Talon takes them in. This makes perfect sense, seeing as how he has turned the Labyrinth into a homeless shelter, and he promises to teach them to think for themselves, "and use verbs" (a nice little bit, that).
Maybe it's because I like Brooklyn, but I was always a little disappointed that Malibu never got any actual lines.
Angela and Goliath have their moment of doubt over Demona's fate, and Angela feels awful that "I hate you" may be the last thing she ever said to her mother. Now, I admit that, since I knew Demona was going to survive, I didn't quite get into this sentiment as much as maybe you guys would have liked me to, but I did like that Goliath mentioned that Demona's love for Angela was "the first sign of goodness that she has shown in a long, long time." Even "a new beginning," perhaps.
This is a really great episode, and I hope my (extremely overlong) ramble does it justice. I just wish it could have been a two-parter--that is the only real complaint I have with this ep, and that only exists because I found out it was originally supposed to be such.
Heck, I wish EVERY episode could have been an hour instead of a half. But whachagonnado?
I don't usually respond-ramble, but I feel kind of compelled to now that we're running out of show. But also because the Hunter's Moon tryptich is probably my favorite episode of the series.
Unfortunately, I first saw the show twelve years ago (I was ten), and I've watched these episodes a million times since then, so it's difficult to know what I was thinking the time around. It's like the Empire Strikes Back problem; you really can't go back to not knowing how that one ends.
Probably why I'm looking forward to Gargoyles #3.
What impresses me most about Hunter's Moon is how it takes several different storylines to their logical extremes. The last thing I expected in the final episode was to see a vengeful, homocidal Goliath. Very ballsy of you guys to break out a new side of the lead protagonist in the final episode of the series. I've certainly always respected the willingness of the series to demonstrate that these are dynamic characters. I do remember what I was thinking the first time I heard Goliath's last line in part 1, and it blew my mind. To be honest, it starts as a standard empty-threatish cliffhanger line, and I mostly expected it to end with something benign like "And I will make them pay." In fact, that's exactly what I expected next. It is always appreciated when television manages to surprise, so kudos on that last line. Superb.
Demona's plan is also the logical extension of what she's tried to do in already, first to eradicate the humans at Wyvern then to destroy New York. Just like Goliath's concept of what he should protect keeps growing, so does Demona's concept of what she should destroy. I love it.
A final episode usually has a fair amount of hype to live up to, in terms of both scope and closure. (I've always thought of TNG as an example of one that did it right, but that might just be my opinion. I'm also a fan of The Fugitive finale.) Hunter's Moon raised the stakes LOGICALLY to their extreme, so it manages to feel like an episode of the series and a worthy finale at the same time.
Thanks. We tried!
My "Hunter's Moon Part 1 Ramble"
This is the only HM I've seen ( I don't know if any of you remember, but ABC family stopped showing Gargoyles after HM2-talk about a mean cliff hanger for the curfue-challenged!)
Me and my friend Danielle have always refered to what you called "the barn" scene as the apple scene, due to Demona's lovely table manners (yuck!)
I saw this one before City of Stone, but it was still very easy to follow. I noticed, however, in this flashback she's seems more middle aged than she did in CS. (Oh, the wrinkles. The stress of her life as a guilt-ridden refugee does NOT cause her to age very well, does it? I recall yelling something along the lines of "Macbeth, Macbeth, where for art thou, Macbeth?! Come forth and give this poor soul thy youth so my eyes can stop BLEEDING!" at the screen.)
Kids can be so cruel.
Danielle (who had already seen every episode) pointed Elisa in her wig before I really registered her. I think I suspected, though.
I still remember the commercials with "concerned citizens with wings" tagline. Oh, for the good old days!
Being preteen girls, we were really more concerned about how hot Jason was to really establish whether or not he was evil. I think Dani had already told me, but until I discovered TGS we never realized that Robyn was the girl Hunter, so I can't be sure. (don't take this too personally-sometimes I wonder what Gargoyles Danielle has been watching. When I first started to pump her about "Sanctuary", she told me Thailog had put a spell on Demona so that she would have amnesia during the day and she actually fell in love with Macbeth, only to remember him when she turned into a gargoyle after the wedding and pounce on him. ???? I think she may have just been trying to save my feelings or something, since at that time I thought McB and D were meant to be.)
In any case, we were too busy quibbling over who got Jason to really pay much attention to the scene (Danielle: Dude, he's so cute, I want him! Me: But you already called dibs on Xanatos! You can't have both! Dani (rolls eyes): Oh, fine, whatever. But you know he gets shot, right? Me: SO?)
Your the Greg Master. If gargess is a word, so is denially. :)
Okay, Brimstone Inc? DIERDRE (is that even French?) Greg, honey, can I just whole-heartedly thank you for having these names changed? I don't know, I guess it's because I'm so used to Nightstone and Dominique but both of the other one's just seem so- dry and corprate. Which I guess is the point, but it just didn't SUIT her (or Thailog, for that matter.) Plus I really love the name Dominique Destine. It's so brillant in it's irony- Demona always tries to dominate her destiny, but destiny just always seems to dominate HER.
Cut to Robyn. I remember this scene vividly, as it is was my first time seeing Demona in her human form. (Danielle: That's Demona. *camera angle moves* Me-pointing at Robyn-:The blonde one? *camera angle moves back* Danielle-pointing at DD-: No, you idiot, the redhead!)
Opps. Danielle and I both loved Robyn. Many a dull afternoon was spent making up stories about a forbidden corprate romance between she and Owen, given both of their stiff demeanors. I was crushed when I found out she wasn't really a mild-mannered assistant. I even thought for awhile that you picked the name Robyn after Puck's alias in "A MidSummer Night's Dream." It still works out pretty good, I think. (Did you ever notice the whole Robin Goodfellow thing?)
One line that I loved that you left out of your ramble was when Dominique was threatening Rutherford (is that his name? I'm not sure where I got that from, but I hear it referenced from time to time.) She dangles him by the neck (unless my memory is exaggerating) and yells at him for some screw up or other, glances over her shoulder at the setting sun and says, "You're lucky I treat my employees with dignity and respect."
This right before she throws him bodily from the room. I love it. Classic Demona. I was cracking up so hard I barely remember the transformation, just a ripped suit and her panting, "Do it yourself." Commercial.
Totally never thought they'd kill off Angie (um, I believe Dani might have mentioned something earlier about that whole "CPR- the gift that keeps on giving" line before I watched this, but I can't remember. If I hadn't had prior knowledge, I still don't think I would have thought her dead.)
I think this was one of the first 10 episodes I'd ever seen (surely one of the 1st 20), so I didn't completely understand what a big deal it was to see Goliath crave vengence like that. They attacked his daughter, and given what we normally see in cartoons it seemed like a natural course of action to seek retrubtion (spelling, yet again)
But of course, Gargoyles is NOT an ordinary cartoon. And in hindsight, oh boy- POWERFUL words, man. They had to be spoken. At some point, Goliath NEEDED to be confronted with the same emotional trails that corrupted Demona. So he could rise above them, and become a better garg for it.
Like Demmie goes on to say, they're really not that different, when it comes down to it.
Which kinda gives you both fear (for him) and hope (for her.)
P.s.: Saw "F for Facades" last night. Tell your brother kudos for me. It rocked! Hope the Weisman bloodline continues to thrive in writing and more. :)
As I assume you know, we stuck with Dominique and Nightstone. And, yep, I'm aware of the Robin Goodfellow name. But the name Rutherford means nothing to me.
And thanks, I'll pass the word on to Jon.
Thanks for the ramble on "Hunter's Moon Part One", Greg. Here are a few comments on it.
I liked the opening flashback with Gillecomgain, filling in a little more about him - such as his very unpleasant father. And we see Gillecomgain vowing to wipe out the entire gargoyle race (over a few facial scars that a single gargoyle gave him - this is a definite case of "a life for an eye", so to speak).
One of the things that I like about "Hunter's Moon" is the feature that you mentioned - those deliberate hearkenings back to "Awakening". (And Season One in general as well - Elisa gets saddled with a new partner by Chavez and is initially less than thrilled about it, there are mentions of the Daily Tattler and the urban legend about alligators in the sewers, the robbery that Elisa and Jason break up is in the same area where Dracon's gang stole the particle beam accelerators from Xanatos at the start of "Deadly Force", etc.) I liked the hearkening back with the gargoyles and Elisa again rescuing the yuppies (and a few other familiar faces this time) from those three street thugs - and the rescuees being ungrateful as usual. (I also get a kick out of Margot saying "Great idea, Brendan. Ride the subway, meet interesting people." Well, they did get to meet a lot of interesting people, many of whom had wings.)
I didn't recognize Elisa until her blonde wig came off - and I'd already seen that wig in "Turf". I really need to be more observant.
One tidbit in Demona's interview with Robyn that I get a kick out of is that Robyn's references are from Edinburgh, Florence, and the Sorbonne - and the flashbacks of the three parts of this story are set in Scotland, Florence, and Paris.
I did get the brief visual joke of Broadway and Lexington looking accusingly at Brooklyn (and nice echo back to the incident with Vinnie's motorcycle).
One of my favorite details in Part One is the Hunters' robot falcon - pity that we didn't get to see it again.
I can no longer remember what my initial thoughts were about Jason when he showed up - or if I even connected him (or Robyn or Jon) with the Hunters in Part One. I did pick up on the way that the Canmores' aliases all began with a hard C, the same as their real surname. (Jumping ahead - that's why I suspected right away, when I first saw "The Journey", that Castaway was linked to the Canmores, the moment that I heard his name.)
One thing that I *definitely* remember was my response to Goliath's vow at the end of Part One to kill the Hunters. I was absolutely horrified at him - so much so that I was worrying far more about it than over whether Angela was going to live or not.
Now I'm looking forward to your rambles on Parts Two and Three....
That shock value at the end of the episode was exactly what we were going for. And a good example of how great an S&P executive Adrienne Bello was. No S&P exec I've worked with before or since would have let us use the word "kill".
I'll try to keep this short, as I kinda already gave my 2 cents yesterday.
I didn't catch the Star Trek reference at the time, b/c I hadn't heard of that episode. Now that I've seen clips of it, I realize it was a brillant (for want of a better term) spinoff. Although I think over all the Angie-Desie-Broad-Cold kiss was better than Kirk and Uhura (spelling, sorry- that chick who voiced Diane! That'll work!)'s. I mean, I haven't seen the whole Star Trek episode, so I don't know what the alien's relationship was like, but those 2 were so freakin SHAKY. They looked like they were having a seizure out of passion, or something.
(I am sorry if this offends any Treky's out there. Like I said, I haven't seen anything but a 5 minute clip of the kiss. I'm much more of a Next Generation gal, anyway. Two words: MARINA SIRTIS. Plus it's really fun to see "Xanatos" and "Demona" flirting.)
I'm assuming you left Ms. S out of the TNG voice credits in your ramble cuz she wasn't in the episode. I'm cool with that, and I realize that if you gave credit to all the Star Trek voices, we would be here all day.
So yeah. I'm not really a big Cold trio fan (although I am a big fan of Coldstone's icecream-sorry, couldn't resist! I think of Micheal Dorn whenever I go in that creamery now!), but this episode was okay. And I was really excited that I finally got to see Angela (even if she WASN'T white with red hair like I always imagined. Don't ask me WHY.)
Oh and one little confession: Before I could remember what her name was, I used to call Coldfire "Starfish Face." I sincerely apologize for this crudeness. I never really got a good enough look at her, and I thought her horns kinda made her look like she had a starfish on her head. I really hope the animators and fellow fans forgive me for this, as when I got a better view of her in "City of Stone" and "Legion", I realized she was actually quite pretty.
OK, so that's my confession for the day (again, REALLY REALLY sorry!) Now I better go before some random Treky or Desdemona fan gets some vitual tar and feathers for me!
P.S.: Was it ever confusing to have both a Demona AND a Desdemona? I realize that other than in the first "City of Stone" they never had an episode together (CF wasn't in "Reawakening, was she?) but it's still seems like kind of a nusiance to me.
P.P.S: Have i mentioned I'M SORRY?!
The episode with the famous Kirk-Uhura kiss was not the episode I was referring to as inspiration. I'm talking about an episode guest starring Diana Muldaur.
Desdemona was never a name used in dialogue.
I enjoyed your ramble on "Possession." This episode holds a special place for me as one of the very first I saw. In your "pre-ramble" you mention the complexity of this one - imagine the confusion to someone unfamiliar with the characters! But this complexity is part of what drew me to the series and why I still enjoy it so much. I still catch new things when I watch this episode.
I did, however, immediately notice the "Bewitched" reference as well as the parallels to the Star Trek body-switching episode (which helped me better understand what was going on, especially on repeat viewings). I'd wondered if the inspiration for the switching triangle came from Trek; thanks for the clarification! (Incidentally, that Trek episode was called "Return to Tomorrow." I much prefer "Possession" - it's a much better description of the action, and made me think of that old line "possession is nine-tenths of the law" when the characters were tempted to keep their new bodies).
I also prefer the "Gargoyles" resolution to the dilemma of where to put the newly-transferred personalities. In Trek they go off into oblivion, having decided our species isn't ready for them yet. But "Possession" offers the prospect of future stories with these characters.
I enjoyed seeing Alex's winged plushie and the expressions on Broadway's and Angela's faces when Othello and Desdemona leave them mid-embrace.
Other one liners I like are from Michael Dorn (Puck-as-Coldstone): "I trust you have no more questions" and "Wouldn't you like to know."
Thanks for the ramble.
We were heavily inspired by that particular Star Trek episode, but I do hope that we made it our own, so to speak. Organic to our series. And not slavish to the inspiration.
Thanks for your "Possession" ramble, Greg. (Just think - all that you've got left is "Hunter's Moon" and you're done with Season Two!) A few comments.
That opening with Xanatos hunting Coldstone down in the Himalayas makes more sense to me now that I know about that Marvel Comic story that you were going to write but never got to do.
The first time that I saw the episode, I initially thought that what Xanatos and Owen were trying to do (and needed more than technology to do) was repairing Coldstone after the damage done in the recent battle, but afterwards I understood that their goal was transferring Desdemona and Iago to Coldfire and Coldsteel. (And I agree that it would be like Xanatos to say "Chin up" to Coldstone while his head is disconnected from the rest of him.)
I like Alex's winged teddy bear, too.
I agree that Coldfire is a much better name than Goldfire; it certainly fits the pattern with Coldstone and Coldsteel in the way that Goldfire wouldn't. (It even makes me wonder how "Goldfire" was even a candidate to begin with.)
Another thing that I picked up on in later viewings was the consequences of Brooklyn's "Me three - except that you don't need three" line.
One of the big elements for me in the episode is how the voice actors demonstrate their versatility (as you pointed out); instead of taking the customary approach in cartoons of "when people switch minds, they also switch voice actors", we here got to hear, say, Bill Faggerbakke and Brigitte Bako altering their delivery to sound more like Michael Dorn and C. C. Pounder. And it was a very admirable performance.
One of my favorite bits: Puck-as-Coldstone saying, "Naughty, naughty, sneaking up like that on Uncle Coldstone". (As much from how Dorn delivered it as from the actual words.)
And I think that we can all agree that this is just the way that Puck *would* educate Alex.
Again, thanks for the ramble.
Thank you.
I can never praise our voice cast (and voice director) Jamie Thomason enough. We were constantly presenting them with new challenges, and they ALWAYS rose to the occassion.
Ah, good ol' Possession. Oi, what a headache THAT was. Still, there's a little special place in my garg-lovin heart for this episode, as it was the first I ever saw with Angela in it (I started watching Gargoyles in summer 2004. Techincally the first WHOLE episode I ever saw was "Outfoxed", although I remember seeing the scene in "Long Way till Morning" where Hutson renounces his leadership to Goliath while channel surfing some years previous. "Outfoxed" was on at night, while about 2 weeks later "Posession" was on ABC Family on Saturday morning, to explain the long episode gap.)
Anyway. I was scratching my head a bit while watching this episode, but I thought over all the sentiment was sweet. And, in hindsight, the whole Brook/Iago thing was a good metaphor for Brooklyn's jealousy of Broadway and Angela. Nicely done.
Of course, it's always wonderful to see the Puck in action ;) I wish we could have seen more of that little guy in the series. Particularly along side Demona (amazingly, I'm not just saying this as an excuse have more Demona eps!) I mean, those two TOTALLY stole the show in "The Mirror." Yes, yes, the sexual tension between E and G was all very lovely but COME ON! That's like EVERYBODY's favorite episode (which I didn't get to ramble on, so sorry I'm losing focus on "possession.")
ANYWAY (pardon my short attention span), I don't really remember this episode too well since I only saw it once 2 years ago and I was too busy trying to figure out what the heck was going on and who was in who's body to pick up on the minor details (alright, plus I was secretly hoping Demona would show up at some random moment, that way if I didn't understand anything at least I'd get to see her. I didn't know about "The Reckoning" at that point. Sue me!) I do remember liking Xanatos' "wiggle your nose" line, which I still think is funny. I had heard from Danielle, my gargoyle mentor who got me into the show in the first place, about Puck but like Angie I don't think I had seen him prior to this episode.
Okay, to sum up, great episode, great series, created by a great guy named Greg (isn't iliteration fun? Particularly when it's spelled incorrectly?) and I'm hoping for a GREAT comeback! SPREAD THE WORD ( to quote X in "Reawakening", "I've ALWAYS wanted to say that.")
Thanks. Possession was fun to work on, juggling all the misdirection.
Hi, Greg.
I just read your ramble on "The Reckoning," which is one of my favorite episodes, and just wanted to contribute my two cents. Ever since "Sanctuary," I had been wondering what would happen when Demona and Angela met again, and I'm happy to say that this episode did not disappoint. For an episode with a very large supporting cast (that also introduced several new characters to boot), it carried itself amazingly well.
It flowed wonderfully, and as you pointed out, contained a lot of memorable lines. Jim Belushi is not my favorite actor, but I loved him as the voice of Fang. I think Fang just might be one of his best roles. His delivery of the one-liners was superb.
If I had to pick a favorite visual moment, it would have to be the shot of Demona, Thailog, and the clones right before the end of the second act. It was like looking at a negative photographic image of Goliath's clan. Very chilling.
A few things I found interesting: Thailog and Sevarius in the same room together. I suppose it's not too surprising, since mentally, Thailog was programmed with Xanatos's slant on life. Xanatos kept the gargoyles alive because he thought they'd be useful (or I'm just going by what he told Goliath at the end of "City of Stone"). Similarly, I'm wondering if that was Thailog's line of thinking when Sevarius was hired to engineer the clones: the doctor does come in handy.
Also, concerning the relationship between Demona and Angela: I think that Demona does love Angela. But I find it interesting that she told Goliath to save their daughter instead of doing it herself. The thing she seemed more solidly focused on was punishing Thailog, because Thailog had just delivered a double whammy by not only ending their relationship, but also splicing her DNA with the human she seems to hate most. It almost looks like Demona loves revenge more than Angela. I look forward to seeing what happens between them in the comic. Your comments on those three small words were very intriguing.
All in all, a very well-done episode that exceeded my expectations. I will be posting comments on the new comic at a later date, but for now, let me just say thanks, and best of luck with your future endeavors.
Jim is also an extremely nice guy and really fun to work with. And I tend to agree with you. Fang may have been one of his best cast roles ever.
The Reckoning. Ah, yes. Great episode, one of my favorites. It was on TV the other morning. Unfortunately, we have satelite and it was storming out when it was on. *grumbles*
Anyway.
There were some great lines present here:
"My clan can beat your clan any day of the week."
"Some of my best friends are half-gargoyle, half-human babes with bad attitudes!"
"It's all over, you... you forgery!"
"Oh, but it's a very clever tin can."
"That doesn't sound like a subway car."
All classics. :-)
When I was younger, I used to stubbornly think that little moment between Brooklyn and Angela meant more then it did. Of course, I know otherwise now.
I loved Thailog's deviousness in this episode. Throwing Delilah in Demona's face, and Demona's reaction. I actually felt bad for Demona for a change. And, of course, I was blown away by her change in mannerisms ("Goliath, save our daughter!") when she actually helped save her former clan. I'd never have seen that coming. Especially after Angela's "I hate you." You always know how to surprise me, Greg.
I was never the biggest fan of Talon, though I never really hated him either. But he really started to come into his own when fighting Fang. Nice. Same for Angela vs. Delilah.
I always had trouble swallowing that the clan believed Demona dead even AFTER they already knew she was immortal, but that's a minor point.
9.5 out of 10 for one of my favorite episodes.
The comic was (is) a great read, also. A lot of people have commented on the art, but it doesn't bother me any. I'm not an art critic by any means, but still. Thanks for the 2 added scenes too. I'm looking forward to issue #2 and beyond. May the comic go on for years. :)
Your mouth to God's ear, my friend.
Hi Greg! It's a shame, I know, but due to the unrealistic time Toon Disney has Gargoyles on (not that I'm complaining- i'm just glad it's still on @ all!) I have never actually SEEN the Reckoning. But i've read enough reviews and rambles and pumped my friend who HAS seen it that I feel confident enough to write a TINY little ramble.
I love Fang's lines in this one, and I would just personally like to thank whatever wonderful censor let "Kinky" slip. Cuz let's face it- she is. And I know he's kidding, but I for one would really like to meet his other friends who r 1/2 human 1/2 gargoyle babes. (hey-is this a hint at Delilah???) I'm sure Brooklyn would too :)
I really like the way you "killed off" Demona and Thailog. I'm not sure if you meant it to include this, but I see a lot of symbolism in it. Ah, the rollercoaster that is love, the ups and downs and the telling-her-to-marry-another-guy-for-his-money-ok-now-i'm-fed-up-with-you-now-meet-your-replacents, all ending in a big, beautiful fireball that is a breakup.
Okay. So I'm crazy. But this IS called a RAMBLE right? So it must be okay to get a LITTLE nuts. Besides, like I said, I haven't actually SEEN the episode. Until i saw some pics the other day, I thought they were fighting on top of A MOVING CAR, which is a lot better than wrestling on a track.
But still. I like my theory, and stand by it. I believe Greg has said many times that Thailog is modeled after the "Bastard." And now, he is a bastard in EVERY use of the word. >:) If God forbid my boyfriend ever cheats on me, I know what morbid fantasy I'm going to have first (only of course, he's TIED to the burning rollercoaster, and I'm pointing and laughing from a safe distance away. Am i being 2 morbid? Sorry)
Anyway,I really wish we could see a rematch....with Demona winning and then as soon as he's gone she starts crying. B/c she really thought she loved him.
Or better yet, get some info on who her NEW lovers are (Greg? C'mon, Greg, I know u hear me. PLEASE? Like maybe on Valentine's Day or your anniversary or whichever comes first? Before MY wedding, at least-FYI, i'm a minor-)
Anyway, really wanna see this episode, and it sounds totally awesome
Or, as Fang put it, "Better than soaps!" And just as edictive. ;)
I'm glad that you like the episode even though you haven't seen it. Now THAT'S a talented producer! ;)
Ah, The Reckoning. With your ramble, you answred one of my most pondered questions!
Anyway, I LOVE this episode. I've never seen it all the way through; I think it is the only episode I've NEVER seen fully (always came in right at the "tin can" line. But you mentioned that it was the fifth last episode, before possesion and HM?
I've always seen it aired AFTER Posession, though all other episodes were in correct oprder.
The Reckoning sets up the relationship between mother and daughter, develops relationships further between Talon and the Gargoyles, and shows us how naieve (SP?) Demona really is.
Demona didn't learn the Thailog was using her, even back in Paris; she still thinks he loves her. But then again Demona has a one-track mind.
I think Demona finally gets it when - enter stage left - Delilah is introduced by Thailog himself.
From what I understand, the idea of the "clan" was sacred back in 990 AD when there were clans in Scotland. Demona has been so messed up over the centuries so much so that if she calls a bunch of botched clones a "clan" then she really has forgotten what a CLAN truely is.
And of course the great delivery: "Ah, but it's a very clever tin can!" What a great line, like you said.
Tim Curry back as sevarious. Another great performance. His voice is so unique. And he does such a good job in the role.
"How many Gargoyles does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" That made for a great contest. And some of the responses were way past funny.
It was quite clever to use Californian names simialr to NY names.
Great episode all around.
P.S. Comic's been sold out everywhere I go. Read it 8 or 9 times. Bought 2 copies. Keep up the great work. Better than the Origianl Journey.
Thanks. The L.A. names actually were a direct result of discussions on the old Disney Afternoon e-mailing list. Someone asked what the names would have been if Xanatos had built his castle in L.A. rather than N.Y. The question fascinated me, and so...
Although I cheated. I think Burbank's name would have been something more like Santa Ana.
Thanks for the ramble on "The Reckoning", Greg - and it's a pity that you had to wait half a year to get it up here. A few thoughts of mine about it.
One amusing little piece; when Sevarius started making the clones for Thailog, the first time that I saw this episode, I somehow was briefly expecting (from the combination of the robot mosquito and Sevarius's quip about "a growth industry") that Sevarius was coming up with some sort of giant insects - or something with insect-like components. (And, yes, the Clones make much better sense, especially when I discovered that the mosquito *was* a robot.)
I like the touch of Sevarius saying "Three down and two to go" - a nice subtle way of preparing the audience for the extra clone of Delilah.
One thing about the Clones' names; they reminded me a little of an episode in the first "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" cartoon where the Shredder decided to come up with some mutant frogs to counter the Turtles, and, echoing Splinter's naming the Turtles after his favorite Renaissance artists, named the frogs after *his* favorite historical figures - Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and Rasputin. I found myself reminded of that with the Clones being named after Los Angeles features as a parallel to the names of Goliath's clan. (Do the Clones' names say anything, I wonder, about what Demona thinks of L.A.?)
I thought that Fang made a great comic-relief figure here - he certainly gets a lot of the best lines. (Regarding the "Kinky" line of his - he should have been glad that Demona wasn't in the same cell with him when he said that!)
It's interesting that "The Reckoning" should have been originally intended as the season finale, since Goliath's line at the end about "a new beginning for us all" sounds very appropriate to an open-ended season finale. But I think that "Hunter's Moon" made a much better season finale. For one thing, it brought in more of the major threads of the series that weren't in "The Reckoning" besides Demona (Goliath and Elisa's feelings about each other, the feud with Xanatos, and human hostility towards gargoyles). I hope that you'll get to ramble on those three episodes soon - after doing "Possession", of course.
Thanks again for the new ramble.
Your welcome. Hope to get back to the rambles after I've caught up here. I know that sounds like a pipe dream to many of you, but I really feel I am making real progress.
I love it when Ask Greg reopens for questions! I know it'll be a few years before this gets read, but it adds to the vibrancy of the fandom.
Unfortunately I didn't get to the Gathering yet again- one of these days. Doesn't gall me as much as missing the last one in NYC, but at least I have my memories of the first two.
I looked through the new posts to see what others were saying about the comic. (There is less of a chance of saying something that has been said to death, but I don't want to lose the habit of checking first.) By in large the reviews are very good and I would have to agree. I couldn't get to my comic shop till Friday, but I read it and went through it with a fellow fan in great detail on the phone before sundown. (The rest of my weekly reading had to wait.) I won't say it was perfect, I had some serious concerns, but I was really happy.
First off, I must note this- The back says that the colorist is new to the field- what a fantastic start! There is nothing there that even hinted to anything novice like.
I have to be a little harder on the artist. It almost seems like the style switched halfway through. The first half struck me as more stylized, a little reminisent of craypas or those sidewalk chalk artists that wow you with what they can do. The second half was looser, even letting you see the pencil marks. My druthers would ask for the second style. The artist seemed far more comfortable with it. While the first page and sevel other panels throughout the begining were beautiful, other were rather awkward and boxy, especially in the none action scenes. (The artist drew some just plain fantastic fantastic action sceens.)
I did have a small quibble with the text...(though I feel like slime mentioning it here). Some of the lines that were lifted directly from the show didn't flow as well without Keith David's sonority. Goliath's formal speaking style sometimes needs that resonance. I have no fear of that being a problem in later books- all the sceens that started life in print read just fine while still conjuring that voice. I loved Goliath's 'discussion' with the shotgun wielding man. Though I have to ask- who has a shotgun in NYC?
Looking forward to issue 2- I do hope that independant Publisher doesn't mean Independate time frame :}
I'm not sure I understand your comment about missing Keith. I mean we all miss Keith, but if I lifted the line directly from the show -- and it worked in the show -- how could it not work here? Oh, well.
As for a shotgun in Manhattan, anyone who occasionally heads upstate to go hunting might have one.
TURF
I knew that at some point the Trio would fight over Angela, and I was kind of worried about how much dignity they would lose in so doing.
I suppose I was more disappointed with Brooklyn's behavior than with Broadway or Lexington's. After all, he is my favorite character, and I think anyone would find it aggravating to see his or her favorite character behaving like a goofball.
Not to mention the fact that he's Second-in-Command, and therefore should behave responsibly and competently in his office. The first time he splits them up so that he and Angela can be alone...well, if he really tried, I think he could have waffled a decent rationale for that decision. The second time however was just plain silly of him. ONE gargoyle at the Clocktower to wait for Goliath might have been wise, but not two of them.
However, more than all of that, when I first saw this episode, I had seen neither THE CAGE nor KINGDOM, and thus had no idea what had happened with Brooklyn's crush on Maggie. The resulting lack of closure actually made Brooklyn's behavior here seem even more annoying to me (crush or not, I couldn't believe Brooklyn would be as shallow as those "Well, hello...and good-bye!" guys from Saturday Night Live). Seeing the episodes in their proper airing order fixes this, of course--Brooklyn has effectively closed the book on the Maggie possibility, and now here is a REAL female gargoyle to court. HOT DAMN!
All things considered (1,000 years without a date) I suppose it's not unrealistic that each of the Trio would go overboard in trying to impress Angela and outdoing the other two. If only they realized how foolish they were looking instead (though I still love the brief bit of posturing they do in the Clocktower--Broadway actually sucks in his gut!).
The bit with them flying into the water tower (or whatever) was worth a chuckle as well. And "muttonheads?" You just don't hear enough people called that anymore. ;-)
In all of this I haven't said word one about the Brod-Dracon turf war. It is what it is, I suppose, the gangster side of GARGOYLES never particularly interested me.
I was surprised to see Brod reappear. Danforth, too, for that matter. I had figured both of them to be one-shot characters (yes, even at this late date in the series, I expected one-shot characters).
I have to wonder what the Witness Protection Program's reaction(s) will be when they learn what ol' Danforth has been up to. Seeing as how Jack is willing to give up a fairly safe and stable life as "a retired banker who likes to spend his afternoons in a health club" to help Brod beat Tony, he really must HATE the Dracons. I wonder why....
I would have liked to see a conversation or something between Jack and Matt--just a reference back to REVELATIONS or something. I just think it would have been nice.
As for Brod, yes, he is audacious. Not just for breaking into prison, but for trying to restart his criminal empire in New York City of all places. No starting small for this guy--go right for the big time!
I had no clue Salli was Elisa until she took off the wig. At the end of Act 1, I thought Salli was a separate character and saw this episode going off in a whole different direction (I'm not saying what direction exactly since it might break the submission rules).
It's interesting to see how she tries to balance her duty with her act--her attempt to reason Brod out of attacking Dracon is a nice example of this (and it's fun how her arguments are so quickly dismissed).
RANDOM THOUGHTS:
-Dracon and Glasses have a frank discussion about the turf war (with Dracon yelling at one point) and there's a trio of guards nearby. I always wonder just what they might have overheard (of course, the guards look like they're having their own conversation, so probably not much).
-Brod eats with his mouth full. Well, I guess manners aren't the most important part of being a gangster, anyway.
-The guy who goes crazy in the police station was the mugger Broadway attacked back in DEADLY FORCE. He also appeared in GOLEM as part of Brod's gang, and he even appeared earlier this episode on Brod's hovercraft. That guy gets around, doesn't he?
-For some reason, I love Elisa's reaction to Angela's, "boy trouble." She actually seems kind of amused by it.
-It wasn't until my viewing before this last one that I noticed Elisa looking at the payphone. I thought it was a nice touch and don't know why I missed it before (maybe my attention was focused on Brod).
-Were Dracon's men firing particle beam rifles? They looked and sounded like actual bullets to me. The guns did have stylized designs, I guess. No comment on the "selective penetration" of the guns (i.e. celing, but not seats).
-I love Pal Joey's taunt to Brod on the train top--just something that struck me.
-I'm similarly struck by the calm way Glasses is able to face what could be his own death. He has a lot more composure than Dracon does later on (of course, Glasses has an "out" while Brod stops to think).
-Poor Lexington--Brooklyn and Broadway are both busy helping Angela, so the little guy has to stand up all by himself.
-Interesting thing: Brooklyn says that he's the one who rescued Angela. I paused my tape at the actual rescue (yes, I am that lame) and I clearly see Broadway as the one who grabs Angela. Was this another case of communication breaking down between the writers and animators, or just Brooklyn himself attempting to ret con the last few minutes?
-"STOP CALLING ME ANGIE!" A funny moment, but I must admit I never realized, until you mentioned it, that Broadway did not call her "Angie" at all this episode. He was also the only one that attempted to reassure her when she was worried about Goliath. I guess some of the seeds were already there (just subtle as hell).
-Elisa/Salli: "We can't just break into a maximum security prison."
Brod: "Why not?" He asks this while gesturing to the sizable armory at the rear of his hovercraft. I find it funny. :-)
-"Sergeant, we've got a problem." I love the Tower Guard's reaction to the hover ship. I wonder if that guy got hurt jumping out of his tower like that.
-Brod seals the only entrance to the cellblock. Now, how did he plan on making his getaway? Have his hover ship blast a hole in the roof?
-I may not be a big fan of "Rocky and Bullwinkle," but that "Easy as shooting moose and squirrel" line would have been GREAT. I can grudgingly understand the S&P objections to the "Good thing we weren't facing Queens" line, and I prefer Puck not to break the fourth wall, but THIS line should have been in the show!
-Dracon revealing Elisa's identity strikes me as a "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me," moment.
-I loved the two different distinctions Brod and Dracon give the gargoyles.
-The penitent Trio apologizes to Angela, and she gives them each a kiss (corny, perhaps, but I think there's some unspoken law that heroines in ensemble action shows have to give a peck on the cheek to all the males interested in them). Of course she also mentions all her sisters, and that makes the Trio even happier.
-Dracon and Brod as cellmates would never be allowed officially, but I could see a couple of mischievous guards engineering a temporary co-habitation. My brother (who saw this with me) was of the opinion that, given their differences in builds, Dracon needed to make the first punch.
All in all, it's not a bad episode, but it's always difficult for me to see Brooklyn embarrass himself like this. Oh, well.
And with that I should be caught up with the Rambles. For now, anyway.
I'm already looking forward to the next one!
"-Interesting thing: Brooklyn says that he's the one who rescued Angela. I paused my tape at the actual rescue (yes, I am that lame) and I clearly see Broadway as the one who grabs Angela. Was this another case of communication breaking down between the writers and animators, or just Brooklyn himself attempting to ret con the last few minutes?"
I'd have to take a look again, but it sounds like the former.
VENDETTAS
When this ep first aired, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.
We had Wolf going after Goliath and Hudson along with Hakon-in-an-axe, and some other guy along the fringes as just comedy relief (these are my initial impressions, mind you). Nothing much more than fighting goes on, along with the revelation that Wolf is Hakon's descendent (and I may be alone, but I rather like that connection).
Regardless, the end made me laugh out loud (and I loved the in-joke of Vinnie humming the theme song).
Over time, I've come to view this episode as being perhaps the most problematic of the series...but I enjoy watching it.
I agree with you on the inherent problems of the piece, Greg. The animation was disappointing--the fight scenes were serviceable but not really involving for the most part, and some comedy was nearly lost. It took a couple viewings before I noticed that Goliath elbowed Hudson in the face while preparing to hit Wolf--the hits occur too quickly for the joke to really pay off--and the second time Goliath nearly elbows Hudson doesn't read that way to me (it just seems awkward that second time).
Then there are the missed opportunities. The mace, of course, is the biggest. As nice as the "battle-axe night" line sounds, I'd rather have the mace. Actually, there could still be a fun line put in there, I think. Maybe not "mace night," Todd's right that doesn't have the same ring to it, but Wolf doesn't strike me as picky about specific terms for melee weapons. "Tonight is CLUB night" would have a nice double meaning to it, or "Tonight is WARHAMMER night" (probably please fans of that old pen-and-paper RPG of the same name). Sorry, I digress.
And yes, I would have liked more resonance to Hudson's battle with Hakon. You get a *little* of "Hudson taking revenge" when he gives a little chuckle as he leaves Hakon trapped in the crusher, but I would have liked more. Love the "clan-slaughterer" title, though.
These complaints aside, I rather enjoy the episode. Vinnie actually helps. It's nice to see what happened to a supposedly "random" person due to the gargoyles' actions. I raised an eyebrow at ret conning him into the role of "big nose" on Air Fortress 1, but I was willing to shrug my shoulders and go with it. I had not seen THE CAGE when I first saw VENDETTAS so the bit with Sevarius getting kidnapped left me mystified and frustrated (it did not stop me from thinking Talon was the kidnapper when I finally did see CAGE, he and Goliath have *very* similar silhouettes).
At any rate, I did like the idea of a "regular person" taking on the gargs. Losing his motorcycle and TWO jobs as well--heck, I'D demand satisfaction for that, too! And I believed Mr. Carter was a real gun (loved the Acme reference, BTW--didn't get the "Kotter" reference because that was before my time). Of course, neither Vinnie nor his gun is quite "regular." Vinnie explains himself (justifies himself, I guess) to Mr. Carter, earning stares from people passing him on the street. Vinnie doesn't seem to notice, though. Of course, not paying attention is what gives him such a difficult night to begin with. My favorite is where he tells "Mr. C" about the second job he lost and then turns around the corner and is surprised that the gargs are gone (as though the world stops when he reminisces). I guess this is part of your point on vengeance, Greg; Vinnie is so wrapped up in "creaming" Goliath--"the Big One"--that he doesn't notice imminent hurt/humiliation until it happens.
But he does not give up! When all other foes are defeated, Vinnie is still the last man standing! I'll come back to him before the end.
On to Hakon and Wolf. I didn't immediately cotton to Hakon being the axe. I noticed it laughed in the car and sounded similar to Wolf, but only when Hakon appeared as himself at the end of Act 1 did I realize who it was.
And Hakon has a LOT of powers. I guess it's a combination of being around for 1,000 years in a magical cave, being full of hate, and possessing a blood descendent that allows him to do what he does with Wolf's body. Flight telekinesis, disappearing, illusions (Hudson sees Goliath as Wolf), and the ability to become insubstantial…I wouldn't mind being able to do that! Hakon was right; Wolf was a fool to give up that power before the gargs were defeated. Of course, Wolf's always been a bit bull-headed about doing things his way and being in charge.
I had no problems with Wolf being descended from Hakon. Quite the contrary, I saw a wealth of opportunity in this development. Of course, Wolf and Hakon don't specifically tell anyone but the audience about this connection so I don't know how anything would develop. But the seed's there.
One interesting point that's made about vengeance in this episode: sometimes, the feelings of vengeance are not mutual. Hudson views Hakon as the ultimate evil, but Hudson barely matters to Hakon--the old gargoyle is just another obstacle to get to Goliath. To Wolf, Goliath, the "alpha male" gargoyle, is the ultimate target, but I somehow doubt if Goliath views Wolf that way. He views Wolf as a powerful and tenacious enemy, sure, but I don't think Goliath singles Wolf out from the rest of the Pack as a "prime" foe. As for Goliath and Hakon, yes there is resonance there, and in the past Hakon was definitely a focal point of Goliath's vengeance, but I think after SHADOWS OF THE PAST, Goliath's enmity for Hakon is no longer as strong. Hakon on the other hand, has lost no hatred for Goliath.
And none of them have any clue that Vinnie even exists until he walks right up to Goliath and shoots a pie in G's face.
That last part still puts a smile on my face. I had not expected the pie, but in a way it makes perfect sense. Why would Vinnie want to KILL Goliath? The gargoyles have humiliated Vinnie multiple times, cost him property and two jobs, but he's still alive, in good health, and not TOO badly off if he can afford Mr. Carter. Based on that, a pie in the face seems a reasonable retaliation.
One bit of dialogue I rather like in this episode is this one:
Wolf: "Come on, are you afraid to die like a man?"
Goliath: "What would a mutate werewolf know about being a man?"
That, coupled with the scene of Wolf scrounging for food in a dumpster, show just how far this former TV idol has fallen. And all just to get Goliath.
I find Hakon's "death" an interesting contrast to the Captain's back in SHADOWS OF THE PAST. With the Captain it was a feeling of peace and ascendancy. Hakon's seems more violent (I love the little electric bolt at the end). It makes sense to me.
I hadn't realized this epsiode had a different voice director until I saw the credits. Honestly, there was no decline in quality so far as I could tell. So take a bow, Greg. And if you see Clancy Brown, tell him to take one, too--he differentiated between Wolf and Hakon very well.
So VENDETTAS, while obviously problematic, is still fun for me.
I'm fond of it. That was the first episode I ever voice directed in its entirety. Of course, I chose it on purpose because it had such a small cast of TOTAL PROS, who knew me and would forgive my ... uh... shortcomings. Ed Asner, Jeff Bennett, Clancy Brown, Jim Cummings, Keith David. Couldn't ask for a more solid, talented and UNDERSTANDING cast for my first effort.
THE GATHERING, PART TWO
I'm having a difficult time figuring out where I want to start with this episode.
The revelation of "Owen-is-Puck" is, of course, the high point, but I also find myself thinking about the battle with Oberon.
Oberon is, without a doubt, the most powerful adversary the gargoyles have ever had to face--and this time he's at full power! However, I find his more subtle uses of said power to be the most effective. I mean, he became a giant and while that's definitely threatening and awe-inspiring, it didn't help him much in any practical sense. But when he actually calms down ("Anger...clouds my judgment.") he really does become unstoppable. Even drained and withered, he proves more than a match for our heroes. The thing with the cape absolutely rocked, of course, but my favorite trick is when Goliath leaps at Oberon...and goes right through him (a trick that will be repeated in VENDETTAS). Oberon then hurls Goliath with a gesture (and a pretty cool line, "This altercation is OVER."). Even at the end, Fox's magic blast doesn't stop Oberon by overpowering him (in fact, when he comes flying back in he seems about ready to kick everyone's ass and take names--actually, I find his "I...have had...ENOUGH!" kind of funny as well as foreboding). In the end, Oberon isn't really defeated...he just changes his mind (thanks to said magic outburst and some choice words from Goliath).
One thing I really thought about here was that, despite banishing Puck and giving a rather curt/foreboding farewell, Oberon seems willing to let bygones be bygones. Partially due to your thoughts on Oberon, Greg, I've actually started to see the more magnanimous side of Ol' Blue Skin.
Over the years, I've come to think better of Oberon than I did during the initial airings. Now I think he's pretty cool.
This viewing, during the gargoyles's battle with Oberon, I noticed how quickly Lex and Hudson got taken out. Especially Lex, he didn't get off a single attack. At least Hudson got to whack at Oberon's hair with his sword (for all the good that did).
I can see one of those "cartoon" moments you mentioned, with Oberon swatting at the gargoyles like flies. I actually think it works as a "comic relief" moment before Oberon brings the statues to life.
That "stone figures" bit was actually pretty cool. Unfortunately, I liked the guy with the hammer and he destroys himself to take out Broadway (speaking of which, for Broadway that must have hurt!).
Count me as another who loves Xanatos's weak attempt to cover his saving Broadway.
"It's incredible how often that move works." I LOVE inside jokes like that.
The Iron Clan was a nice variation on the Steel Clan. I mean, we (my brother and I) knew they were bulkier than the SC, but only occasionally did I really notice just how much BIGGER they were (during the chase down the side of the Eyrie Building, you see a now human-sized Oberon go by, followed by the Cybots and a gigantic Iron Clan robot). I'm also absurdly pleased by the "launching points" for the Iron Clan...it makes me wonder how much of the buildings surrounding the Eyrie Xanatos owns or rents.
I loved seeing Renard come to the rescue. Renard sounds stronger here, to me, than he has since OUTFOXED. His words aren't as broken apart as they were even in PART ONE. I like this touch. I'm a little sad that the last we see of Renard in this is "I've failed him." It would have been nice if he were a part of the little "victory celebration" at the end. Heck, it would have been nice if Petros could have been a part of it--and his exit wasn't as dignified as Renard's. Petros just got knocked out and forgotten.
I always figured that while the iron harpoon hurt Oberon, the iron bell would basically rip the very fabric of his being apart. After all, at the right pitch, sound can shatter glass.
And finally we come to the big revelation. Any disappointment I felt at my brother being right was curtailed by my delight at this excellent little twist. And Puck's explanation for playing the straight man made perfect sense to me.
When I first saw Vogel, I thought he was just an in-joke, even after he became a character in his own right. Little did I know you guys had strong reasons for his similarity to Owen.
It still surprises me that Puck actually had his creations rough up Oberon. Dang, but the little guy's ballsy.
I just love "Oberon does not compromise...Oberon COMMANDS!" Mostly, I love it for Terrence Mann's reading of it. It's just...wow.
We all kind of figured that Fox would display some magic at the end. It was practically a given. However, Puck's reaction to it (which you've already quoted) is priceless.
I was a bit surprised when Oberon banished Puck. I have to admit, I hadn't expected that. And I actually kind of felt sorry for the little elf afterwards, but...he did kind of ask for it.
I was surprised and pleased when Xanatos thanked the clan like he did. Of course Goliath (ascribing to the "Fool me once..." school of thought) is suspicious. I like the actual sad look on Xanatos's face when Goliath snubs him. But then Goliath smiles as he talks about "the transforming power of a child's love." Xanatos may have been the "main villain" for the first season and most of the second, but already that title doesn't fit him as well as it once did.
Other little things:
-I love Oberon's exasperated "Now what?" when the Air Fortress shows up.
-I also liked seeing Oberon's giant footprints in the street (who's going to explain THAT?).
-You guys had Petros notice Oberon's "shrinkage." Only after we the audience had seen it happen twice. I like that, although the characters notice something quickly, they don't see it the instant it starts to happen.
-Hudson's "You've had quite an influence." I find Ed Asner's reading of that intriguing. I like it. I can't say why...it just struck me.
-After having been a major part of the World Tour, Bronx just sits this one out. He probably missed his soup bone.
I'll admit, I believed Titania when she indicated things had gone according to her plan. I don't know what she whispered to Fox (and have never asked), but I do start to see Fox smiling before the camera cuts away.
And yes, Greg, this is the first, last, and only time that Broadway calls Angela "Angie."
Okay, I think that covers THE GATHERING. Next...
I'm glad you like Oberon. I like him too. You just have to walk a mile in his shoes to begin to understand him. NOTE: I'm not being an apologist for him or approving of everything he did. But I think it's worth trying to understand him, see things from his PoV.
THE GATHERING, PART ONE
Hey Greg! Good to see you rambling again. I'm going to have to do a little mini-marathon to catch up, so without further ado....
When this episode first aired I had figured that this would be the ep when the Travelers (finally) got back to home base and the rest of the regular cast. I, for one, was looking forward to this, if for no other reason than to see more of my favorite character (Brooklyn).
Seeing the Gathering on Avalon was a nice little "curtain call" for the many supernatural beings the Travelers had encountered on the World Tour. Other than those we had met, Nought definitely had the most striking design (it also helped that he was pretty well featured for a walk-on).
I agree with you about Anubis--he should not be laughing. That part never seemed quite right to me.
It amuses me how, when the Banshee and Odin are fighting, Oberon at first enjoys the action immensely, but as soon as his mirror is nearly damaged he calls an end.
I may be alone in this, but I don't feel too sorry for the Banshee--she was a bit of a pain.
Selene (sp?) is in full fury mode here (I love her eagerness in offering to hunt down Puck).
I also enjoy Princess Katharine's reaction to Oberon contacting her magically.
I've always wondered what Renard thinks of Petros Xanatos. I'd imagine that they might have got along well enough, despite Renard's enmity towards David.
I hadn't figured out Titania and Anastasia were one and the same until Anastasia started talking. Only here did I recognize them as both having the same voice actress and draw the connection.
Of course I didn't get the Owen/Puck connection (or refused to--I'll explain later).
I, too, loved Vogel's reaction to Petros' question about him being related to Owen (an honest question if you ask me).
The child is born. And (for those of us who read the credits of FUTURE TENSE) we already knew his name (and what he'd probably look like all grown up).
Watching the bit with the jogger pouring out his drink after his "hallucination" this last time, I felt myself thinking that, while it's a nice old gag, I'd kind of like to see it with a new twist. For example, instead of pouring out the offending substance, after seeing the supposed hallucination, the subject instead smiles and starts chugging it.
The hypnotized guard is funny. The late Charles Hallahan did a great job with both that and Travis Marshall's snide "...both of them ex-convicts..." line. Great copy and great performance.
The confrontation in the Xanatos' bedroom was very well done. Oberon's reaction to Fox being Titania's daughter is, of course, a high point, but there are smaller things that stand out to me as well. Seeing a young and healthy Renard is a plus, and I love that Fox visibly reacts to seeing Xanatos' gun behind his back (it's small and if your attention is on Xanatos you wouldn't notice it).
As I was watching this time, I thought about Oberon's lines about how Xanatos should take comfort in having "fought admirably for [his] child against impossible odds," and that they have an hour to say good-bye before he takes Alexander away forever because Oberon is "not without a heart." These lines, looking at the words alone, are essentially making things more painful and frustrating for the Xanatos' (insult to injury, as it were), but Oberon does not intend them that way. He's actually being honest, maybe even paying compliment to them, and (in his own mind) is being nice about the whole thing.
In a way it reminds me of Xanatos' line to Derek in THE CAGE--"He's the scientist, you're just the experiment." Xanatos wasn't trying to hurt or insult Derek with that statement, he was just stating the fact of the matter. Similar to Oberon here, the words used by the speaker seem more hurtful than the speaker's intent.
I suppose all this is just a roundabout way of saying Oberon really is Xanatos' comeuppance. :-)
THE TRAVELERS FINALLY COME HOME!!!
Man, I was so happy to have them back on home territory and ready to get back to stories with the rest of the regular cast in their given setting. The World Tour was a nice way to expand and show more gargoyles, but there really is "no place like home."
When Goliath is telling about all the gargoyles around the world he sounds positively giddy. He's even SMILING! Of course he's been smiling since they got back, but here...it's just that seeing Goliath this happy is a bit uncommon.
The Trio of course has their first introduction to Angela...and I kind of suspected this would be the cause of a few waves with them. Three guys and ONE girl…oh, yeah, trouble. The bit with the chocolates is funny, too. And after tasting just ONE chocolate, Angela says, "I think I'm going to like it here." BEHOLD! The power of CHOCOLATE!!
Seeing Goliath and Elisa on her terrace...the first time I watched this, I had already decided that they were going to kiss or something by the end of the season. When G brought E back home, I thought, "This is going to be it!" Then Elisa had to be a party pooper and stop it (and my, wasn't that rain a convenient way of breaking it off).
This latest viewing, I found myself thinking, "...She left her lights on, the electric bill's going to be bad. Wait...how long have they been gone, exactly? It's a miracle she still even HAS her apartment--all the months she wasn't there to pay rent! What, does she pay several months in advance?!" Being a budding actor I have found myself struggling to cover such bills for the past two years, consequently thoughts like that have a tendency to occur to me.
Anastasia/Titania's revelation of herself to the gargoyles was a bit too quick for me, but there's only so much time in the average episode.
I love that the evacuating workers are actually questioning why they're being evacuated (I heard someone mumbling "fire drill"). It's a little detail I like.
The force field surprised me a bit, both because it's something we hadn't really seen before in the series, and because it was actually effective.
I love how Oberon goes from being amused to being pissed off when his magical bolt doesn't break the force field.
Nice effect where his eyes glow green when the lightning flashes.
Seeing Oberon wreak the one car makes me feel sorry for the car's owner (hope the owner's got good insurance). Then he puts everyone in the city to sleep and I start to wonder how many people might die (killed in a car accident, fell asleep while on a ladder or stairs, etc.) because of this. A lot of people are going to be inconvenienced by something they have absolutely no idea about (kind of like Vinnie!).
Oberon's put the city to sleep and both Petros and David Xanatos are in the "war room" with the former asking, "Has the attack begun?" I find that hilarious.
And then Oberon grows up ("Enuk-cha!"). That last shot of his laughing face through the glass of the atrium is great, especially as a cliffhanger.
Here, at the end of my ramble, it's time to talk about Owen. Now, of course he's acting weird but....
Okay, when this ep first aired I watched it with my brother. Now, I was the GARGOYLE nut in my family. My brother and mother thought it was all right and would watch it from time to time, but I was the one who lived, breathed and slept it. So, my bro and I watch this and my bro turns to me and says, "Owen's got to be Puck." And because it was my brother who said this, I disagreed with him. It wasn't that I didn't think it was possible Owen and Puck were the same (in fact, it seemed to me like a distinct and intriguing possibility), but it galled me that my brother (who would NEVER admit to being wrong) would be right about this. The fact that GARGOYLES was MY thing and not his made me more adamant.
Of course, in the end he was actually right...but I can't recall being disappointed about it in this case. It was just too cool of a twist.
On to part two, now....
One has to assume that by "Night of the Panther" at least, Elisa had made some arrangement to deal with bills and etc.
I know this will not reach you for awhile. But I was perusing internet movie database and found an outstanding review of the series I thought and hoped you might enjoy.
This person captures the spirit of the fans in every way, on every level. We have bought the DVS's we WILL buy the comics, and Yes, I believe we will bring this timeless show back.
We cannot do otherwise guys.
I have just one question: How can Disney Television Animation produce such a wonderful show as "Gargoyles" for a couple of seasons and then go back to being Disney Television Animation? I simply cannot understand it, and if anyone has any thoughts, PLEASE share them with me! This show was a breath of fresh air on every level. If this wasn't a groundbreaking show, it certainly raised the bar sky high.
Voices--Many's the time I have thought that they could have chosen a better actor for a part in animation. Not here. The voice cast was so good that to this day I cannot imagine anyone else filling the bill. In the role of Goliath, Keith David demonstrated that he possesses one of the greatest speaking voices of any actor in the business. Jeff Bennett was also great as Brooklyn, my favorite character. (Loved the white hair!)
Music--Carl Johnson's scores were great. They beautifully set the tone and underlined the action and the drama.
Animation--Excellent. Dark, moody and stylish. The shots of the clan as stone statues are downright eerie at times. To this day, I still can't believe Disney did this one.
Plot--Action, drama, technology, mythology, humor and a little Shakespeare on the side. Folks, WHAT MORE COULD YOU POSSIBLY ASK FOR? This series had the most tightly structured story lines ever--there was not a single moment of dead air anytime.
The best thing about the series, however, was the characters. For being a clan of gargoyles (with a couple of humans), these characters were as real as you and I. Things HAPPENED to them! They actually got HURT as a result of violence. They matured, sometimes in ways unexpected. They found out the hard way who their friends and enemies were. And they had to live with the consequences of their actions, which sometimes came back to haunt them in later episodes.
Here's hoping Disney will realize the error of their ways and bring this show back. If you are already a fan, may you continue to enjoy the show. If you haven't seen it, give it a chance. But be advised: Once you have seen television and the world through the glowing eyes of a gargoyle, you will never want to settle for "standard kiddie fare" ever again.
I hope you enjoyed this Mr. Weisman
Thanks, Justin. It's always nice to read praise. (I'm not shy about admitting that I like the ego-boost.) But I have to say that I don't see or understand the need to praise Gargoyles by BASHING Disney -- in particular the shows which preceded Gargoyles at Walt Disney Television Animation. "The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh", "Disney's Gummi Bears", "DuckTales", "Darkwing Duck", many episodes of "TaleSpin", "Chip 'N Dale's Rescue Rangers", "Aladdin" and a select few of "Bonkers" and "Goof Troop" strike me as some of the best TV Animation that's EVER been produced. Likewise shows since Gargoyles, like "Kim Possible" and a few episodes of "Hercules" and "Buzz LIghtyear of Star Command" also send me. (And there may be more, but I don't watch cartoons as much now as I did back when I was a Disney Exec.)
Obviously, not all these shows are going to send every Gargoyles fan. And that's fine. But I can't really understand not recognizing how superior they are to most of what's out there.
And remember: NO GUMMI BEARS; NO GARGOYLES.
Thanks for the "Turf" ramble, Greg! Only 6 to go now (though I doubt that you'll be able to do them all before the end of January - pity).
The trio definitely come across in this episode as the gargoyle equivalent of the Three Stooges, especially when they collide with the chimney, and when Brooklyn's shouting "Knock it off, you muttonheads!" Then again, as Elisa points out, what do you expect when they've been without female gargoyle company for a thousand years?
On a side note, I've noticed that practically every discussion among the fandom over which of the trio Angela ought to wind up with made it "Brooklyn vs. Broadway", with Lexington never seriously included in it. Of course, it makes sense now, in light of what we know about him.
I liked a lot of Brod's lines, such as "Chop shop? What is 'chop shop'?" and "This is why I never go in first" (not to mention what you brought up about "That was my favorite restaurant!") There were a lot of fun lines in here from the other crooks, such as Glasses' "Come on down to Dracon's House of Auto Parts. The prices are hot, and so is the merchandise", and Dracon's "What's going on here? I didn't order a break-out!" And finally, the hilarious ending with Brod and Dracon stuck as cellmates (though I doubt that such a thing would happen in real life).
I didn't recognize Elisa with that blonde wig, so it was a big surprise for me when she took it off and revealed who she was. (And naturally, the trio then go about saying that they knew it was her all along.)
Thanks for your comment about the payphone, by the way; I've been wondering for a long time about the significance of that scene where we look at it against the backdrop of the burning restaurant.
And interesting that Brooklyn should be the one asking about a world tour, in view of what we now know is in store for him (cf. "Timedancer"). One more example of "Be careful what you wish for."
Brod was fun to write for. And a lot of the stuff you mentioned in terms of "given what we now know" is stuff that I THEN knew.
Dear Greg,
When people ask me why I proclaim that Gargoyles stands apart from other shows, I find it difficult to explain. The characters are great, the relationships are great, and overall it's just... great. But that hardly expresses its true charm.
In watching Gargoyles, I find that its appeal must come from its captivating and immersive mythos, the sense one gets of being transported to another, mystical world. Aside from that sense of awe and wonder, there's also that feeling one gets of really being a part of that world, and having an intimate understanding of it. It's like, even if a topic matter hasn't been thoroughly explored within the episodes, or blatantly described, one can derive how every little thing might be prone to work within the world of the Gargoyles.
Anyway (now that I'm done gushing), in light of all this, did you expect Gargoyles to affect and alter the lives of so many people in the way that it did? Objectively, it was only meant as a show for children, but somehow it's managed to capture and touch the lives of all kinds of people. Could you possibly have expected this? For many people, Gargoyles is more than just an interest or a "hobby." How does it make you feel to know that Gargoyles has nearly been a life-changing experience for so many people?
~Elana
Expectations...
Even at the time and even given that it was the first show I had ever produced, I knew we were doing something special. Once-in-a-lifetime special.
(I've done a lot of work I'm proud of in this business, but nothing has been like GARGOYLES.)
And I had hopes that others would recognize what myself and my team saw in the series.
But, no... I had no idea the life that the series would take on with and for so many people. That's been incredibly gratifying. Beyond words, really.
As anyone who has been to a GATHERING (www.gatheringofthegargoyles.com) can tell you, I am in ego-heaven the whole weekend!
And having the chance to write these comic books is really a dream. As I'm sure SLG would acknowledge, the money I'm making is really just a token amount. Just enough to allow me mentally to convince myself I'm WORKING and not perpetuating a stubborn refusal to let a long-cancelled series die. So, clearly, I must be in it for the love of the property and because the fans have done so much for me.
you people better not put brooklyn with demona or i'll kick your @$$.
Us people?
Thanks for the "Vendettas" ramble, Greg! We're really coming along here beautifully.
The big problem that I had with "Vendettas" when I first saw it was Hakon's return. I thought that it felt anticlimactic after "Shadows of the Past" - particularly since Hakon's second ghostly attack with Goliath consisted of simply teaming up with a big dumb werewolf! But while I had some difficulties with the Hakon part, I really enjoyed the Vinnie part.
I was startled to learn that Wolf was Hakon's descendant, but did find their quarrels and Hakon's disgust at Wolf's stupidity amusing. (It now reminds me a little of the idea in the original comedy development of the evil sorcerer from the Middle Ages and his unworthy descendant Xavier being at odds with each other.)
I agree with you that Hakon and Wolf's weapon would have worked better as a mace - but I also liked (as you did) Wolf's line "Tonight is battle-axe night!", which makes up for that. I don't think that "Tonight is mace night!" would have been as amusing a line. (It certainly doesn't have as good a rhythm to it.)
When I first saw this episode, I thought it more than a little far-fetched that the motorcycle rider from "Awakening Part Three", the guard on board Fortress-1 in "Awakening Part Four", and the security guard at Gen-U-Tech in "The Cage" were all the same guy, but now I can accept it. I got a big kick out of Vinnie's narration and the way that it clashed with what really happened (especially the part where he was talking about doing everything that he could to stop Goliath from kidnapping Sevarius, while we see him with his nose buried in his newspaper). I got a real kick out of him in a hurry, in fact.
And it would be like him to give his pie-throwing gun a name (though, if you can accept swords like Excalibur having names, why not pie-guns as well? I can just see what Hudson would have to say about this, with his "Must you humans name everything?" comment).
Vinnie does remind me a bit of Wile E. Coyote beyond the Acme supplier; like Wile E., his humiliating moments wind up being mostly self-inflicted!
Another scene that I found entertaining (this one about Hakon and Wolf): when Goliath and Hudson go charging at Wolf, Wolf boastfully says that he'll swat them both like gnats, and the next moment, is sent flying through the wall before he even has the opportunity to do anything!
And the bit about the construction worker who, after seeing Goliath and Hudson, is convinced that it must be hallucinations imposed from his cough medicine (although if his cough medicine is that strong, he definitely shouldn't be operating heavy machinery!).
And then there's the bit at the beginning about Hudson wondering why New York's called the Big Apple.
I was definitely surprised when Mr. Carter's ammunition turned out to be a banana cream pie. But it was just the sort of thing that Vinnie would do. One thing about Vinnie: he's the only guy in the series who ever got revenge on Goliath, something that the Archmage, Demona, the Pack, the Hunters, etc. all failed to do - though the fact that his means of revenge were baked goods doubtless had a lot to do with that.
I still wonder where Vinnie heard the "Gargoyles" theme music sometimes. :)
The fact that Goliath, both times that he meets Vinnie (in this episode and "The Journey"), can't even figure out who he is, is all the more appropriate in light of your remark that Vinnie owes much to yourself. I'm reminded of a "Peanuts" strip that came out shortly after Charles Schulz was Grand Marshal of the Tournament of Roses Parade. Lucy was shown watching the parade on television; Linus asked her if the Grand Marshal had shown up yet, Lucy replied, "You just missed him, but he wasn't anybody you ever heard of."
" (It now reminds me a little of the idea in the original comedy development of the evil sorcerer from the Middle Ages and his unworthy descendant Xavier being at odds with each other.)"
Nothing is ever wasted on a Greg Weisman show. (I'm like Xanatos that way. I'm also like Vinnie. Heck, they're ALL me!) ;)
Why is New York called the Big Apple?
My Puck/Owen Ramble:
I didn't see it coming, okay? Maybe I'm thick or something but I did not have the -slightest- clue that Owen was really the Puck. Did. Not. See it. I was blown away, to put it mildly. I fell out of my chair and frothed for a bit. Having managed to see these episodes in order, I'd seen all of Owen's episodes and Puck's and still didn't see it coming. Later, when I re-watched City of Stone, I fell over again: YOU KNEW ALL ALONG!! HINTS!!! EVERYWHERE!!! AGhthth!
As to the stone fist, I'd read it like this: Owen didn't know -what- the cauldron would do, but figured if it was something really bad, he could always get a new hand, given some time. His faith in Xanatos' technology was quite high, and there was ample evidence that Xanatos was developing loyalty-like emotions of his own. (I say loyalty-like because frankly Xanatos is one scary bugger, even post-Gathering.) As for Xanatos, I (wrongly, it turned out) read him as really feeling something there, some shock, some dismay and even sympathy, BUT knowing that the worst thing he could express was sympathy. It's not the Xanatos way to cry over spilled milk, or even a few gallons of spilled blood. You arch an eyebrow, make a mental note, and go on. To me at least, he did Owen a great service by reacting in the most Xanatos way possible, and in fact anything else would have been an insult to what I thought at the time was a huge (but on some level, justified as it IS freaking immortality) sacrifice.
(That last bit works really well even if you know about Puck, but it's far less dramatically heavy and more of a sublimely funny moment the two friends share. To translate the lines into Dude-where's-my-car-ese: "Hey, check it. Human form, human effects." "Huh huh. Awesome." The pair are actually -both- parodying themselves here, Owen being subserviant to the point of near-insanity, and Xanatos blowing it off. I like to think that here Xanatos is kind of thinking to himself "boy, I'm kind of a jerk, aren't I" but having more fun playing the part than any sort of remorse-like emotions.
If I somehow haven't said it enough, holy crap Gargoyles is the awesomeness, I've bought two copies each of the two DVD sets out, and I am obsessed with Xanatos' scary hotness. I have a LiveJournal icon of him from "The Edge" with the words "OMG XANATOS!" blinking underneath it. A toast to the prettiest, scariest, yummiest villain of all time.
I appreciate your compliments, but I also really LOVE your analysis of the characters. The fact that Owen turned out to be Puck doesn't change most of what you wrote.
As for that revelation, our goal was to shock the audience (or most of it) but still leave them saying, "Of course! Why didn't I see it before?!"
This isn't a question, but more to a comment to the now season 2, Vol 1 Dvd that has been realised to the public this December. Once again I would like to thank you Mr. Weisman for your continuing efforts to promote Gargoyles along with the comic, which I will be hunting for soon. I dearly hope that Vol 2 of season 2 will come onto dvd, and myself along with my family will be the first to purchase it.
Once more thank you Mr. Weisman for allowing old Gargoyles fans to reconnect with something that we loved.
You're VERY welcome. And thank you for supporting the property.
Thanks for the "Gathering Part Two" ramble, Greg! Some of my thoughts on the episode.
One of my favorite touches in the early stages of the battle was Renard's involvement in the fighting (alongside Vogel and the cybots). I think that one way of giving a battle an epic tone is to bring in familiar supporting characters as well as the major characters; Renard's presence in Fortress-2 gave a real feeling of making the confrontation a really big one.
Oberon put up a truly fierce battle with a lot of great touches, I thought - particularly the animated gargoyles, the growing hair, and the limbo space within his cloak. It made him seem formidable indeed, even with the self-imposed limitation that his arts could no longer directly affect the clan.
I share that little delight in Xanatos's line about saving Broadway. How typical of him to cover up his true thoughts like that!
And the suspicion that I'd begun to develop about Owen and Puck being one and the same was confirmed. It still shocked me a little, but I quickly got used to it. My favorite part of it is still the bit where Puck says "He chose Owen", sounding truly impressed as he did so; you could just feel Puck being so intrigued and delighted that Xanatos would value Owen's non-magical efficiency over Puck's magic. (Mind you, after seeing how Puck granted Demona's wishes in "The Mirror", I'd say that Xanatos showed good judgment in choosing a lifetime of service from Owen!)
I remember a particularly fun remark about the scene where Fox at least unleashed her powers on Oberon; the reviewer commented that that scene was something that alert viewers saw coming - but what made it so fun was that she didn't just unleash her powers, but that she did so with such force as to send Oberon - who had seemed almost unstoppable at this point - through the wall!
In "Future Tense", Puck taught Goliath the hard way about being careful what you wish for. Now Puck gets a taste of that lesson himself; he gets what he was hoping for in "Future Tense" - getting to stay in the mortal world a while longer - but not in a way that he finds appealing! (I've recently found myself wondering, incidentally, whether Goliath, when he suggested Puck for the role of training Alex - though Puck was the obvious choice anyway - might not have been trying to get a little of his own back over that recent nightmare.)
That idea of yours about the gargoyles flying inside Oberon's head was funny - but it's probably just as well that we didn't see it.
And it definitely would be like Puck to say "I'm on a roll" to the audience - it would be perfectly in character for him to break the fourth wall.
Naturally, no ramble about "The Gathering Part Two" would be complete without a mention of the infamous Whisper. I don't want to know what Titania whispered, myself - but I've sometimes wondered if you've ever regretted putting that scene in, in light of how often you've been asked about it!
And we have a great ending with the beginnings of peace between Goliath and Xanatos - though even with the war over, there's still plenty of trouble to come in other directions.
Once again, thanks for the ramble, Greg.
You're welcome. No regrets. Just no intention of revealing what I'm sure now would be an anti-climactic answer anytime soon.
Thanks for your ramble on "The Gathering Part One", Greg! It's great to have another episode review from you here, and I hope to see at least a few more here soon, even if you don't make it all the way to "The Journey" this time.
I remember that, the first time I saw this episode, it jarred me a little (as I've mentioned before) to see Odin taking orders from Oberon, but since then, I've come to accept it. It certainly did give a sense of resolution from the World Tour to see so many of the mythical beings that Goliath, Elisa, Angela, and Bronx had met showing up in the palace - and in particular, to have the Banshee being subjected to punishment by Oberon for defying his command to return.
(Incidentally, I assume that you chose Odin as the "Child of Oberon" whom the Banshee got into an altercation with because his voice actor was already present in this episode, playing Petros?)
I also had a bit of fun seeing if I could spot any new Oberati in the crowd; I could glimpse a centaur, a winged horse, a Medusa-like figure, and a couple of Norse mythology-type giants in the great hall, as well as the people entering in through the gates carrying torches (one of whom was on horseback, I remember).
I had missed both "Walkabout" and "Ill Met By Moonlight" when they first premiered, so this was the first time that I was meeting Titania under either of her identities. Consequently, the revelation that Anastasia and Titania were the same person didn't have the same impact on me that it would have had on other viewers who had seen those two episodes first.
After such a long absence from New York, it was nice seeing all those familiar background characters (the Jogger, Travis Marshall, Officer Morgan, Brendan and Margot, Cagney) again.
The reunion of the gargoyles at the clock tower was a very moving moment, including the discovery by Hudson and the trio that they weren't the last of their kind after all. I get a particular smile out of Broadway giving Angela the half-eaten box of chocolates. Another bit that I enjoyed was Hudson's delight at being reunited with Bronx (I like the rapport that the two of them have).
Your remark that Avalon hadn't really released Goliath and Co. from their quest, but sent them back to Manhattan to thwart Oberon's attempt to kidnap Alex (apparently Avalon isn't always in harmony with its lord's intentions) reminds me of one thought that I had the first time that I saw this episode; I was wondering briefly if the fact that Avalon had sent Goliath back to Manhattan for a purpose rather than just to release him meant that they'd have to get back on that skiff for more adventures afterwards. Fortunately, they didn't have to (I didn't mind the World Tour as much as many viewers did, but I understood that it would have to come to an end sometime.)
It was when Owen nervously cleared out of the Eyrie Building after giving his security system specs to Xanatos, explaining that he couldn't risk being involved in the fight with Oberon, that I began suspecting for the first time that he might be Puck in disguise (given that Oberon's initial purpose in coming to New York had been to haul Puck back to Avalon). Oddly enough, I'd missed all the other clues earlier in the series (Demona's "You serve the human" line in "The Mirror" and her "You're the tricky one" line in "City of Stone", the striking physical resemblance of Owen and Vogel, and Owen's immediately recognizing the significance of Anastasia having remarried her first husband). Now, however, I began to wonder if Owen and Puck were really the same person, though I had to wait until Part Two to have it confirmed.
The activating of the security system struck me as an especially great scene, one of my favorite moments in "The Gathering". Another, of course, was Goliath and Elisa's parting at her apartment.
As I said, great to have another episode ramble - I'm looking forward to Part Two.
Re: choosing Odin. Economics was indeed a factor. But I don't recall it being a creative disappointment or anything.
'Ello Mr. Weismen. Not a question, but a comment rather. I just wanted to say that despite my tender schooling age (I'm a freshman you see...but who knows what I'll be by the time you get around to this...) I just wanted to say that ever since I realized I wanted to be a comic book writer, your brilliant story, Gargoyles (and it's massively couldn't happen but you never know nowadays universe) has greatly inspired me! As I jot down my little ideas I wonder how I can expand upon them to create something truly unique!
And thus, I just wanted to tell you that Gargoyles has been a direct influence on my future attempts at possible creative properties of my own and I consider you (and your creative team) an inspiration!
And...also...
Nah, that's it. I got nothing else. Adios.
Thanks. That's very gratifying. So I figure you're like a Junior now. High School? College?
For my questions to whomever,
1. If in the event that season two is released, would it be 1 whole set or multiple sets? My reasoning for this question is because of the fact that there are so many episodes in season 2.
2. If you read a little below you would see that I have the ability to watch the episodes when ever I want. With that aside, I have noticed that once and a while the animation style changes from episode to episode. It would mainly be in the solid and dark type setting but in some episodes, the animation changes to a more "goo'y" style that you would find in a show like Gooftroop. Can this be explained?
Now for my review of the first DVD set. I give it a 9.9. My only reason for not making it a 10 is because I was hoping there would be the featurette from the original VHS tape with the few voice actors and actresses talking and the background story narrated by Jonathan Frakes. That was my only real gripe.
I was surprised to see the video about the 2005 event on the DVD. I wanted to attend so bad, but there was no way I could afford the airfare. (Kind of bummed about that.)
Other then this, the DVD rocks. I will be very honest though, (Please don't hunt me down) I never thought that it would ever come to DVD so I looked around the vast internet and was able to acquire the episodes some time ago. Even though I have done this, I still bought the DVD because I feel that if it is worth buying, then the money should be spent to support the people that created it. This will go the same with season 2 and 3 when they come out (note I say "WHEN" wink, wink.)
I am happy to say that I am a Gargoyle fan (not as much as some but I'd like to think so) and will some day find my way into the amazing world. Thanks for the awesome work and the sheer genius of the Gargoyles Series.
1. By now... I HOPE you know that Season Two was broken into two releases. The first release, SEASON TWO - VOLUME ONE, was a three-disk 26 episode set. The second release, SEASON TWO - VOLUME TWO, was also slated to be a three-disk 26 episode set. But it has not been released and isn't scheduled yet, due to mediocre sales on Volume One.
2. With the possible exception of a few scenes in "Enter Macbeth", I don't think we had any animation in the first two seasons that would have fit inside "Goof Troop". We did have a variety of overseas animation studios in multiple countries working on episodes. There's no doubt that our best stuff came from Walt Disney Animation Japan. But we got some VERY good stuff from a Korean Studio as well ("City of Stone") and other places. But we got some stinkers, I'll admit. But none that looked Goof Troopish. I do recall that there was an episode of the Goliath Chronicles that I think was done in Australia that had a distinct Aladdin flavor to it. But I've only ever seen the Goliath Chron eps once each (except for THE JOURNEY).
3. You're welcome. And THANK YOU. I do appreciate that you pitched in and paid for the legit DVDs.
I'm back everyone, just got back from the 4Kids.com Forum. I've been chatting on the forum with kids all over the world about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I lately just saw an episode called "Same As It Never Was" and it was a lot like the episode "Future Tense." It was just as creepy, the Turtles and Splinter except Donatello died (because he was transported there in the year 2035 with Shredder--he's not the one from your childhood because he's VERY evil), and it was a VERY possible future--not an illusion.
Anyway Greg, I just dropped in to keep up on your responses and things. Thanks for reviewing one of my favorite episodes,
"Future Tense." I just want to add, especially after reading a review on the imdb website about your show on DVD, that you and your show are going to be history. (Laughs) No, not dead history, but the famous kind of history! There really hasn't been nor will ever be any show like yours ever again. Ever since I started to watch it for the past four years or so, it's still in my top five list of specific things to watch! I'm planning to, after I retire from my job (which is hopefully a Baseball Tonight anchor on ESPN--I already stand an excellent chance and I've only got a quarter of a semester until I go to college) that I'll start my own action cartoon channel that I've wanted to put on the air since I was eleven. Of course Greg, your show will be there whether we get it back on and running or not. We may also be getting a new fan or two or more when I compared and told about your show when I went into that ramble comparing the "Future Tense" episode to the TMNT's
"Same As It Never Was" on that 4KidsTV.com forum.
Thanks for the help SPREADING THE WORD. And when you get that channel, keep me in mind... I'll probably be available.
yes I'm italian I like this show too but i wonder one thing
we said that the 3rd series was not good as the first and the second it's ok and i can undstand, but
I see that there are more and more fans in this world that love this show and they write write a lot.
from Germany France and much more of european state, I think that maybe fans can help in a strong way writer and so on than why don't try to say to disney that fans are much more and they got more and more idea for the show?
i see that Baffy fans make possible the choice for the 6th and 7th series ( infact they must finished at the 5th series with the death of baffy)
i know i'm hoping for the the 4th season like a lot of guys and girls are waiting like me and we know that it is very hard it can be true, but I belive that is better gargoyles and goliath chronicles that power rangers series ( we can see that gargoyles is intenser that power ranger and more other toon in air)
so hoping in the 4th series come true, hoping in new character (that can help with their personality more auditel) and that disney could consider that gargoyles is not bad as this ungly story do
best wishes and good luck for your work Greg
Paolo 19/03/2005
Thanks, Paolo. I'm not 100% sure I'm following you here, but I get that you want more. So do I. Check out the new comic book series!
FUTURE TENSE
Here's my ramble (finally)!
When I finished watching this ep the first time I was seriously amazed. So many twists and cool images and risks taken ("killing off main characters, sort of"), this ep just floored me that you guys managed to do this.
But let's backtrack a bit.
Goliath gets struck by lightning, and the clouds turn red. Now, I never for a moment bought that Goliath and the rest had been in Avalon long enough for 40 years to pass in New York (they would have needed to spend the greater part of 2 years in Avalon for that to happen). However, I did not rule out the lightning bolt being some weird "time warp thing" that propelled our heroes 40 years into the future, one made possible only by their absence. And that as a result of this being an "artificially created" future, if you will, the normal rules of time travel did not apply to this particular future. Then you guys killed Bronx....
That was the clincher for me. I didn't really care about the skiff's destruction (heck, I still missed seeing the head sink on this viewing), but as long as the "untouched" characters were around they could all go back and stop this dystopia from occurring. But then you guys killed Bronx, and I KNEW this was an illusion of some kind. I didn't know who was behind it, but I knew not a lick of it was real.
Anyway, back to when I actually did buy it. The new Steel Clan was amazing. Not only did they have Xanatos' face, which was a startling and kind of cool change, but they were also bulkier and seemed much more dangerous. It's interesting how the laser shot that destroys one of them hit its red lens in its chest. Made it seem like that was the only vulnerable spot.
When I saw the "boat" or whatever, I didn't immediately recognize either Matt or Claw. When Matt of course said his name, things started to fall into place (and I found myself thinking how remarkably well reserved he was for a guy in his 70's). But I still didn't recognize Claw. Why? Because I still hadn't seen THE CAGE or KINGDOM at this time. I *thought* he might be that tiger-mutate I saw in METAMORPHOSIS, but where were his wings, and when was he named Claw? Knowing who Claw is now makes the absence of his wings rather chilling, and makes me wonder what happened to them (or if Puck had bothered to think anything up).
The Talon-troops. Again, having missed the mutate-centered eps I had only the vaguest connection with these guys, but they were cool. It's interesting how this "Xanatos" seems to base his troops off the "Goliath" template (after all, the real Xanatos did intend for Talon to be an "anti-Goliath" of sorts, right?). I did notice that they (and later the Thailog Shock Troops) had "brain boxes" (to borrow a term from another animated series). I did not, however, take that to mean that a whole hemisphere of their brain had been taken out. Interesting that it's the right hemisphere--the one that's supposed to deal with creative thought.
Chavez's daughter was an excellent image and a chilling way of engaging the long-time fans.
The Xanatos broadcast. First of all, I was still surprised by the structures built onto the Eryie building (and I also did not know is was called that at this time because, again, of my missing those eps). It really made the whole city look a lot more techno. And then I find out that they act as Holographic projectors. But Xanatos' broadcast always seems so weird to me. Maybe it's just the lack of music, but also the way he says "Rejoice, my people," to folks who have no electricity, rat's on sticks, rags for clothes, and vast amounts of misery. The "Cinderella" bit doesn't fly much with me either. Of course, the sheer hypocrisy of that song-and-dance is probably the point.
I didn't recognize the Labyrinth for what it was until some time later (again, the missed episodes--last time I'll mention it, I promise).
I must admit I was not at all surprised to find that Hudson had died. After all, 40 years against this kind of set-up, when he was already in his 50's back in the present? It was a surprise that he had died so long ago (32 years, was it?) fighting with Xanatos. I believe, Greg, that you mentioned THE PRICE being the inspiration for that particular plot twist. I'll get back to the fight later, but Hudson's taking on Xanatos one-on-one really does elevate his status.
And for the record, I never thought that bronze statue was the real Hudson's remains.
Finally we see what Brooklyn looks like. Him being my favorite character, I was obviously most interested in him. And the armor does look cool. Physically he's...inconsistent. Seriously, when we first see him, he's obviously put on a few inches of height and bulked up some (he stood just a little shorter than Goliath here). However, once we get to Castle Wyvern, he seems to lose all that and looks like his modern day self with the armor on (this is especially noticable in the Great Hall--even though he's crouching down, he still seems smaller and skinnier than he was in Act 2).
But hey, his character is nicely done, and it was kind of fun seeing him punch out Goliath like that.
Broadway's "aging" was probably the most effectively done, at least for me. He of course has his battle scars, not the least of which being his empty eye sockets (which are quite chilling, especially when tears well up in them). His skin also seemed to have changed color, becoming more of a pale green than what I'm used to seeing. But the biggest change was his voice! Seriously, props to Bill Faggerbakke--Broadway sounds so much more somber and, well, mature here. He's lost the...well, I hate to say "duuhh" quality, 'cause that implies stupidity and Broadway's not stupid, but that's the only thing I can think of. It winds up making Broadway sound...exactly how he's supposed to sound, I guess.
When Brooklyn started dropping the names "Talon, Maggie and Coldstone" as well as "Sevarius and the UltraPack" (and hinting at the deaths of the first three) I didn't quite know what to think--I was still getting over Broadway's appearance. I do recall being somewhat affected by the mention of the other mutates (especially Maggie) since their's was the story arc I kept missing. I wondered what their relationship(s) with the gargoyles ended up being.
The Phoenix Gate is brought up in a logical fashion, and then quickly forgotten.
And now Demona shows up. I kind of figured she'd be on the "good guy's" team in this future 'cause that seemed to be the way the story was going, but her and Brooklyn being an item?! That caught me completely out of left field. I guess it's the only way to go since, you know, our Brooklyn hates Demona's guts, but it still struck me. My first reaction was to laugh my @$$ off, it was such a twist.
"Thailog was killed in the Clone Wars." DINGDINGDING! This was when I started thinking something wasn't quite on the level here. but that's when Lex showed up, so I forgot about it.
Lex as a cyborg was a chilling visual, and also rather appropriate for these events. But something differentiates Lex from the other cyborgs we've had on this show: his voice. There's a strange electronic reverb that makes him sound creepy. His reaction to Goliath is rather unique because there's nothing big about it. In fact, Goliath seems secondary in Lex's considerations, and all he does is give a sarcastic "Better late than never" before ignoring him for most of the ep.
Fox? Oh, Xanatos' son! Nice way to play with our expectations there, too. His design was great, love the melding of his parents' qualities. And yes, the rather "anime" styled fight between him and Xanatos is always fun to watch. Jonathan Frakes actually did a pretty good job at giving Alexander's voice a slightly different sound than Xanatos'.
When Xanatos' killed his son...that was a pretty jarring moment. There's even a moment where it looks like something's exploding out of Alexander's eyes just before the screen goes white. It was so intense, and the very act itself so appalling, that when I showed this to my mother years back, she couldn't restrain a shocked "Jesus...." Not a bad job you guys did there.
I always figured Brooklyn was sincere about Xanatos "{nuking] the place." Don't know why.
The sonar collar's a nice touch, as was Lexington's "circuit-board eye."
Then you guys kill Bronx. As soon as that happened, I knew this was all about as real as a $3 bill and decided to just sit back and enjoy the ride.
The Thailog Shock Troops were a nice touch, and subtly different from the real Thailog, not just in style, but also in the face (probably because of the aforementioned "brain box").
When Lexington got grabbed, I kind of assumed that meant he was dead, too. But then Broadway dies onscreen. He gets a really great moment here, where not only does he see again, but he sees the sun. It's well done, and the looks of anguish on Goliath and Brooklyn's faces are great, as is the music, and I really wish I could say it affected me more than it did. Remember, by this time I determined none of it was really happening to Broadway or anyone else, so all I could appreciate were the technical and artistic aspects of his "death."
Into the digital world. I like the "reenactment" of Hudson and Xanatos' final battle (Xanatos' techno-sword looks pretty cool). I love the idea that although Hudson fell in battle, he still managed to take Xanatos with him.
And the revelation of Xanatos' "immortality" is pretty neat, and led to a great line by Goliath:
"You're not immortal. You're not even Xanatos. The REAL Xanatos, at his worst, would not have done what you have done. You're just an unfeeling machine."
That did leave me wondering, if someone ever did manage to "download their brainwaves and personality profiles" or whatever into a computer, would that program really still be the same person?
Xanatos, has circuit-board eyes. A hint that I didn't quite pick-up on, but something told me it was supposed to be significant.
Then the Xanatos Program kills off Brooklyn (I recall getting a bit annoyed that my favorite character was disposed of so unceremoniously), Angela and Demona (the fact that he wasn't Macbeth didn't really matter to me, 'cause I knew they were fakes). Then Goliath tries to go after him only to be reduced to a talking head. The "Hamlet" reference was a given, but the "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" bit was just golden.
My favorite part though, was when Goliath starts to turn the tables. "Xanatos" gets a very worried look on his face even as he says "Whatever you're up to, it won't work." The *instant* he stops speaking the cloud of granite SLAMS into him and this computer program actually gives a cry of pain. And then the winged form that bursts forth is Goliath, in the flesh again. Very cool.
The new betrayal. Lexington as the ultimate villain. This caught me completely by surprise. Not only did I think he was dead, but I never thought one of the long-running "good guys" of the series would turn bad. But this Lexington actually fills the villain role incredibly well--just as good as Thailog or anyone else. I think he's especially chilling when he says (with that weird, electronic voice) "You've LOST, Goliath. Even if you destroy this terminal there are a THOUSAND others all over the city!" Then he does something rather foolish, he tries to do his "Alien" facehugger impression on Goliath, who just throws him into the nearest bank of computers. I got that Goliath killed Lexington here, but it never really affected me that much because A) part of it was self-defense, and B) that wasn't really Lex.
Nice fireball and explosion with the Eyrie building. The hole torn in Goliath's wing looked really painful and made me wince the first time I saw it--Goliath was always real.
Elisa gives a doom and gloom bit, and brings up the Phoenix Gate...for the third time. The first two times seemed perfectly logical, but here it started to seem suspicious. I always thought that the "warning bells" in Goliath's head started to go off when Elisa said "But I'm not [too weak to use it]. Give it to me." The close-up of his eyes there led me to believe that something was starting to pierce through the fog his mind had been surrounded by. But naturally, he's not going to just say no now, so he let's it drop to the ground. I love when "Elisa" reaches for the Gate but has to pull back and ask for it again (geez, how frustrated was Puck right there?). "Elisa" presses her request, but now Goliath KNOWS something's rotten in Denmark, and the whole thing comes crashing down around Puck's feet.
This was it. The final, ultimate twist in an episode chock full of them. And it was also a pleasant surprise to actually see Puck again, since the last time was THE MIRROR *waaaaay* back in the second week of the new season.
We get the idea that, like the Banshee, he wants to stay in the world of mortals (though I did not suspect the reason). We also understand that despite having enough power to create a huge false reality (where an hour or so takes place in just a few seconds in real life), he still must follow certain limitations, and thus can't take the gate unless someone physically puts it in his hands (again, talk about frustration).
Then he gives that whole "Dream or Prophecy" thing which has had just about EVERYONE pulling their hair out at one time or other.
Finally, back to reality. And Goliath decides being the eternal guardian of the Phoenix Gate just is not for him, so he calls up the flaming gate (great animation here, love the lightning ball just before it bursts into flame) and hurls the Gate into it.
Angela and Elisa are completely nonplussed by this turn of events, but Goliath only gives a cryptic response before propelling the skiff into the mists once again (and, as it turns out, for the last time).
I really enjoyed this episode, both because it kept the twists coming, and just because it seemed like a hugely daring thing to do.
I did figure that they would get home in the next episode, and I was glad. I was ready for the World Tour to be over. Glad it went out with a bang, though.
One last thing: I remember people trying to puzzle out "what really happened in those 40 years" even after it was revealed to be an illusion tailor made to just shock and break expectations. Just shows how compelling you guys' little "alternate future" was.
Thanks.
Of course our plan was to play fair by dropping hints throughout, but to follow every hint with some new shocking revelation so that the viewer's mind (at least the first time through) wouldn't have time to focus on the hint. It's a smoke and mirrors technique of course, but your ramble suggests it was fairly effective.
Greg responds...
"simply"
You think ANY of that is simple? Any of it?!!!!
Sorry... didn't mean to offend you. I thought the quotes stated clearly that this little word was meant ironically.
Of course I do understand that trying to convince some people who only see numbers to bring back a series is a very hard task.
You can do this.
Greg responds... to WHAT exactly? I'm sorry but it's over a year since you posted this. Who knows how long since I "responded". I just don't have a clue as to what we're talking about here.
I'm writing this on behalf of my entire family of five in response to the release of Gargoyles first season on dvd. Back in 1994 I was only 8 years old but even now I still remember the characters of Gargoyles and how much rewarding it was to sit down and watch Goalith and his clan figure out the ways of New York. My whole family watched the show since it always caught our attention and interest, but when it was cancelled my family felt sadden since it was the one cartoon that my whole family had enjoyed.
It's been 11 years since the series was created and I or my family have never seen a cartoon come close to beating Gargoyles was back then, but when we found out that season one was being released for dvd I got it straight away and we enjoyed it and hope that disney will deeply consider putting out season 2 & 3 for dvd. If not my family would still like to thank you for bringing this wonderful series back into our home once more and allow us to see something that had affected our lives so much.
Thank you,
from the Bifolchi family of Canada
You're welcome.
This is more a comment than a question, but I found myself remembering something. You mentioned having worked on the development of the original version of "Bonkers", the one where he was teamed up with Miranda Wright. One of the episodes from that version of "Bonkers", I recall (my memories are a little over ten years old, and a bit rusty), had Bonkers and Miranda after a band of gangsters who were after a long-gone gangster's treasure, the clue to which was on "page 23" (I think that it was 23, though I could be wrong) of a book, but they didn't know which book. So they were stealing Page 23 from every book that they could find - and when they found the correct page, it led to what was at first sight a poetry book - and in the same episode, Bonkers had taken up poetry (even composing a poem that was a take-off on Lord Byron's "She walks in beauty like the night") and viewed the poetry book as real treasure.
It struck me that, although it might have been only a coincidence, the episode feels almost like a foreshadowing of both "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" (both episodes had a strong pro-literacy message and the beauties of the written word proving to be the "real treasure") and "The Silver Falcon" (the antagonists searching for the treasure of a long-gone gangster). I just thought that I'd bring it up here.
I'd forgotten about that Bonkers episode. I should say that after the (Miranda version of the) series was developed, I wasn't all that involved with the day-to-day of the script writing, with a few notable exceptions (the Gloomy the Clown Banana Cream Pie bit, of course). And of course, once the new (Piquel) version of the series was developed, I had nothing to do with the show.
As I've stated before, the Miranda version of Bonkers was a definite influence on Gargoyles. Though I can't say that this particular episode was. But maybe...
Hi. I read that you are going to send these to Disney Executives and that they may or may not release a Season 2 of the Gargoyles. So, I just have to say that you absolutely must release a second season of Gargoyles on DVD. Not just for the little kids who like to stay up and watch it just because they saw it on TV and decided they liked it; but for those of us who grew up on it, that were introduced to it by older siblings or cousins or whatever, those who may or may not still be with us today. We grew up on it. I was about six I think when it first came came out, and watched it with my older sister who read the comics. My friend and I have lived withit most of our lives, before we can remember. We were once the little kids that stayed up passed their bedtime, just to watch it. As Highschoolers, we don't get the time to stay up and watch it. So when we heard it was coming up on DVD, we were ecstatic. It was a part of our childhood and with the dvd's we get a glimpse back to it. It would do you more harm than good to not put the others out. Do you remeber in the first season when the dude who kept on getting robbed and never closed down? And when Goliath asked why, Alisa told him it was because that store was the only food store in the community, that the people needed him to survive and Goliath decided then that he would protect the people of Manhattan. That's kind of how it is here. Not only would you make a profit off of the DVD's (instead of being robbed), but the people would be happy and grateful, whether the gratitude would be silent or not you would still be appreciated. So I am asking you people who work at Disney- Please don't discontinue any of the production. It would only break our hearts.
See, Disney, see!
Just wanted to express my love of gargoyles and my new favouite christmas gift, The first Season of Gargoyles on DVD. I have already watched the season numerous times and shown many of my close friends this wonderful show. I really cant wait for the second season to come out, with many of my favourite episodes in it, so i can show all my friends that as well
Thanks.
"Future Tense" Ramble
first things first, i gotta comment on the animation in this one. this is definitly one of those episodes where everything from the characters to the backdrops were just gorgeously drawn. truely a work of art.
now the "Previously..." segment really added to what i felt was Goliath and Co getting home. when the Gathering was first mentioned by Banshee and then later by Oberon himself, i had a strong feeling they would be getting home when this Gathering happened. with "Ill Met by Moonlight" finished i was convinced that they would get home in the next episode. so when the "Previously..." segment was airing i remember thinking, this is it... and even during the first scene Goliath's comments made assured me that this was it, they are coming home... it wasn't til i saw Puck's Statue of Liberty that i knew something was up. and by the time i saw the Eyrie Pyramid covering New York and Matt and Claw show up i was pretty sure this wasn't real. i could not believe that the writers would make this kind of massive change in the series and make it permenant. so naturally i thought this must be an alternate future or that sorta thing. looking back i should have known that the "time is like a river" speech forebid this kind of history. but i do remember thinking, "that bolt of lightening wasn't normal, something is going on. this isn't real, but i'm not sure what it is..." so i let the story play out, was quite a mystery in my mind.
BAM! the first big shock for me... Hudson is dead. its one thing to make the world in shambles, but to lose a main character. part of me was saying "NOOO!" and part of me was saying "theres no way this is true, no way they'd kill off a main character..." but the mystery lingered, what the hell is going on?
and, for the record, i remember thinking, is that Hudson's actual body? did they encase him in bronze? it wasn't til i found "Ask Greg" that i knew it was supposed to be a memorial only. call me silly, but i simply didn't know that much about gargoyle death at that point. *shrugs*
when Brooklyn appeared, now clad in armor, i thought he finally was acting very much in his leadership role, but something about his speech to Goliath (post-punch) was very familiar. it didn't hit me til recently that its very reminiscient of Una's speech to Goliath in "MIA". where have you been all these years? why did you vanish? both so angry that they had been left on their own with no answers. thats a tough feeling.
and Puck nailed Brook's sarcasm wonderfully "oh, that makes everything much better"...
i love Goliath's line to Demona, "hiding is never a solution". its interesting because you gotta think of how much he lives in hiding, and how much his life will be shaken when he is exposed to the world in "Hunters Moon".
boy does Broadway pull the heartstrings in this one... his death still gives me chills. and its not just Goliath's grief that is so hard to watch. Puck certaintly puts some anguish in Brook's face.
and Lex, that bastard. i mean, his treachery goes way past Demona's. i think that outside the grief of losing nearly all his loved ones, Lex's backstabbing has to be the worst thing for Goliath to take. another Clan member destroying us all, and once again blaming it on me, is it me? do i bring nothing but death and suffering to my Clan? doubt is a powerful weapon that Puck uses.
doubt, grief, pain, helplessness... i think Puck was going a little too far trying to get the Gate. wasn't there any other way to get Goliath to hand it over?
well, regardless, Goliath once again withholds a talisman for one of Oberon's Children, but this time he probably does the right thing. and we see the final one of the "big three" talismans thrown (literally in this case) outside of the reach of our characters (or so we think).
and one of the most interesting things to discuss with other garg fans is Puck's "dream or a prophecy" line. nothing like a good prophecy to shake things up. obviously, we know know its not a dead on prophecy, but only a few episodes later we start scratching our heads. the Clocktower is destroyed. what else in Puck's illusion will come true we wonder... will there one day be an Ultra-Pack? sounds like it. will Demona rejoin our heroes? looks that way. will Lexington turn out to be evil? well, maybe in the minds of the religious fundamentalists and ultra-conservatives... ; )
one thing i remember clearly saying to a friend of mine at school the day after i first saw this episode was, "i'll bet you anything that they get home in the next episode!"
turns out, i won that bet.
What made you think we were EVER bringing them home?
Just kidding.
The basic plan for "Future Tense" was of course to just keep Goliath and the audience so off-balance and over-wrought that there wouldn't be time to consider what was behind it. To make a story powerful even though at the back of everyone's minds they had to know that it couldn't be true.
And yet, I take some pride in thinking that if we didn't -- in the first place -- have a series where CHANGE happens (where Fox leaves the Pack and marries Xanatos and gets pregnant... where the clan is banished from their own home atop the castle.... where Derek becomes Talon and doesn't get changed back...), then I don't think you would have been able to buy into this episode as much as you did. Somewhere in the back of your mind, didn't you have this little fear, this little "They wouldn't dare..." insecurity?
"Would they?"
Thanks for the "Future Tense" ramble, Greg!
The first time that I saw this episode, I thought that the lightning striking Goliath was some sort of time warp that had sent the skiff forty years into the future (I certainly didn't believe that "Avalon time" was responsible for what had happened to them; all of the previous World Tour adventures had been in the present day, after all). Of course, now it's clear that it was Puck who was responsible for it (and I'd picked up on Goliath's wish giving the little trickster his loophole).
I don't remember too much else of my initial response, but I know that, the moment the skiff got blown up, I was wondering how they were going to undo that. Of course, Bronx's death (followed by Angela's) raised that question even more, though I don't know if I was specifically wondering that any more by that point. (I find myself reminded of a similar response that I had when I first watched the episode of "Buffy" where Cordelia wished for a Sunnydale that Buffy never came to and Anyanka granted her her wish, when the vampires killed Cordelia; the moment that that happened, I began wondering in earnest how they'd undo the situation with Cordy dead. But that's another story.)
The Steel Clan robots being redesigned to bear Xanatos's goatee was a great touch. Another was when Xanatos's image appeared on the Eyrie Pyramid to deliver his Xanatopia broadcast; the way that it was set up made it look as if he had three heads.
I don't know if I picked up on it when I first watched the episode, but it's clear now that it wasn't the real Xanatos. I certainly can't imagine him now taking over New York in an open dictatorial style (as you pointed out yourself in the Gargoyles Season One Bible, he doesn't need to take over the world because he's able to get almost all of what he wants under the current system), forcing the remainder of the populace to huddle in the streets eating rats, etc. Much too cliched villain-style for him.
I liked the contrast between the trio: Brooklyn bitter, Lexington worse than bitter (gone evil), and the blinded Broadway (in contrast) being a gentle soul who never gave up hoping for Goliath to return and believes that what's important was that he did come back. (Not to mention getting such a touching death scene, and I'm glad that you convinced Adrienne to let you include it.)
The part about Brooklyn and Demona being a couple that really amused me was that not only was Goliath shocked by it, but so was Bronx!
Lexington strikes me as an example here of "You can become like what you hate". As you pointed out, his cybernetic nature echoes Jackal and Hyena - and I noticed that he also had lines around one eye that bore an eerie similarity to Fox's eye-tattoo in shape. A great touch.
Lexington observing the deaths of Matt, Claw, and Bronx struck me as a bit of a cheat in how it was handled, in that it was the one scene in Puck's nightmare that wasn't done from Goliath's point of view (since everybody in the "Future Tense" sequence other than Goliath is just an illusion of Puck's). Though I'm not certain as to how else it could have been handled. (I also noticed that the Xanatos Program's eyes had the same design to them as Lex's eyes in that scene - another hint as to Lexington being behind it?)
I'd picked up on the cybernetic implants of the Thailog Shock Troops, but hadn't realized that the helmets that the Mutates were wearing were also implants.
Lex's capture by the Thailog Shock Troops didn't set off any warning bells; I'd just assumed that it was another "loss of a good guy" moment and was therefore genuinely surprised to see Lexington resurface as the villain.
Goliath and Xanatos definitely got a great fight to the death in cyberspace, which stands out all the more in contrast to how their feud would *really* end (as the next few episodes would show). And it struck me as just like Xanatos to quote from both "Hamlet" and "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
I really thought that the Phoenix Gate was gone for good at the end and so your mention of the plans for "Timedancer", when I first read the MasterPlan document, definitely took me by surprise. (I'm glad that there was still a little time travel left - I like time travel stories, especially ones into the historical past, and when Goliath threw the Gate away, I had felt a little sad that it looked as if we wouldn't be getting any more of those in "Gargoyles".)
Thanks for a great ramble, Greg!
You too, Todd.
Hi I am from the west coast of Canada, and I have to say I am so happy to see the Gargoyles series has gone to dvd. Currently I am 19 and when I saw the first season on dvd I was overwhelmed with excitment. I always cherished the series and was deeply sad when it was taken off the air. But now with the first season on dvd I can rewatch all my favorite eposides. I know this isn't a question, but I wanted to show my support for Gargoyles, and the hopes that disney will allow season 2 to be put onto dvd. I can tell you right now if I see season 2 on dvd I would buy it in a second without thinking twice.
Lastly I would like to say thank you to Disney and Greg Weisman for bringing back the series that I most cherished when I was growing up. Thank you so very much.
sincerely your,
Angelo Bifolchi
from British Columbia, Canada
You're very welcome. 2nd Season Volume One is currently available. Go forth and SPREAD THE WORD!
ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT
I never misunderstood the title, although it wasn't until I actually read "A Midsummer Night's Dream" years down the road that I got the reference.
Our travelers are finally back in Avalon again. Sure, they may have stopped off between trips, but this is the first time since AVALON part 3 that we actually meet the characters again. I sometimes think Angela's line ("I'm beginning to think this Manhattan is a myth.") and Elisa's homesickness are nods to the audience as well as character moments. By this point, I was quite ready for them to get home. And I had a suspicion that it was going to be soon--both because of the above referenced lines, and also because I knew we'd be getting the big card and seeing Oberon and Titania. The "Previously on..." segment hinted that this would be the episode in which they made their appearance.
In answer to your question, Greg, I can't remember if I thought we'd be seeing Titania as early as the appearance of Titania's Mirror. I think not, simply because I didn't expect the plethora of Children that the World Tour brought out. And, after THE MIRROR, it wasn't until AVALON part 1 that Oberon was at all mentioned again.
The Lord and Lady's entrance was indeed grand (make a platform for yourself and materialize in a bolt of lightning), and their designs were nice. I'd always wondered about the skin-color choice, and I can appreciate and support the decision to not specify any human skin color on their preferred forms. I do wonder about the choice of color though--blue for Oberon, green for Titania. Was the choice based on their distinctions of "King of the Night" and "Queen of the Day" (I'm not sure, but I thought I heard them referred to as such)?
The female gargoyle with the triceratops plate finally speaks! And later on we learn her name, Ophelia! I was very glad for this--by virtue of both design and exposure in the AVALON three-parter, Ophelia really stood out. I'd hoped she'd be given a bit more in the way of character and was pleased to see that happen.
The "conversation" with Oberon always struck me as an exercise in "leaping before looking." Here you have two beings making a flashy entrance, and one of them the Weird Sisters refer to as "my Lord." So what do you do? You *demand* them to declare themselves while partially drawing your sword. You threaten to throw them out. You leap at them. You basically do all you can to piss them off.
Goliath was the one to have the right idea. I like his line "These strangers may fail in courtesy, but we need not." He actually manages to respectfully phrase a request for identification that Oberon finally answers. Of course, by this time Elisa had already pulled her partially-iron gun on Oberon and definitely pissed him off, so Oberon starts to "quicksand" everyone.
"Once and Future Queen"...I'm sorry, but I couldn't help but flash back to King Arthur with that line.
It always struck me that Oberon spoke in the third-person plural ("the Royal 'We'"). Really makes him sound like royalty of old.
Titania intervenes on behalf of our heroes (and just before Goliath's face was about to be covered with soil). "You are over-pert, my Queen." That's such a strange phrase, "over-pert." I'm not sure of its meaning (nor its proper spelling for that matter).
"Why bother with such foolish fairness." That has to be one of the most cliched-villain lines I've ever heard Oberon say. And his reaction when Titania offers herself as prize is just so great--he loses his dignity for a moment at his joy at the mere thought of remarrying Titania. Well, she is kinda hot.
Goliath, Angela and Gabriel are the chosen champions. Somehow, I just knew that was how things would turn out. I mean, they're the main gargoyles on this Island. It's kind of like Kirk, Spock and McCoy. You don't send out Kirk, Spock and Ensign Ricky unless Ensign Ricky's going to die horribly. Similarly, you don't send out Goliath, Angela and Job unless you want Oberon to make Job die horribly. It's all in good fun!
Now we have the "iron" discussion. This was a new aspect of the Oberati for me--they have a weakness! And I loved the "silver be for vampires and weres" line.
Sadly, this is one of the more foolish cuts I've seen Toon Disney make. They seem to want to cut out any close-ups of the gun or scenes where the ammo casing is shown being removed (they can't show how a gun can be loaded, Heaven forbid!). As a result, the whole conversation skips over this IMPORTANT bit of information. It goes from Elisa saying, "Oberon didn't seem too pleased when I pulled my piece on him," to the Guardian saying "Oberon's children have always been vulnerable to it..." It's like they're talking about the gun now! They can at least TRY to edit it in a way that doesn't screw up the information.
Sorry, my digression.
Gabriel complains about "running away from a fight" and Goliath says, "Consider it a strategic withdrawal." I kind of laugh at that simply because I just start thinking of other "pleasant euphemisms" for the same thing--kind of like, "I'm not going to the bathroom, I'm freshening up."
Angela says "Oberon's no stronger than a child now." Goliath corrects her, "As strong as any of Oberon's Children," but it's too late for me, my brother and some of my friends. I just get this vision of a mini-Oberon running up and kicking them in the shin or something.
Back at the ranch--er, palace--the forging has begun. I like Guardian's almost pleading line, "I still think a sword makes more sense." Here, Princess Katharine points out that Titania gave them a clue. Now I was quite interested to see what the weapon was going to be.
Oberon's "pillar of flame" bit is very nice. Even as a Child he has great power. But he still falls into the pit-trap. It's rather funny just how sure Angela and Gabriel are that it worked.
"Dare you try to make me look foolish, mortals?!" Every time Oberon says that, I just want to yell out, "Who needs to try?!" I don't know if I'd do that if I was actually in that situation, but it might almost be worth it to see Oberon's reaction. Is it possible for Oberati to have conniption fits?
Despite having his powers reduced, Oberon is able to pull rank over the terrain quite admirably.
I will confess, when Angela and Gabriel grasped hands in the air, and smiled at each other, I was one of those who misread that. Looking at it now, it seems more like a "coming up with an idea" expression. Immediately after this, they dive towards the volcano.
The flight over the lava is...problematic somewhat for me. Visually, it's gorgeous. This is the best lava in the series, period. And the hands are great (ironic that Oberon conjures up gargoyle hands to catch the gargoyles). And I love the way they turn Oberon's trick against him. However, once again, reality just wants to cut the suspension wires of disbelief. The fact that they fly so close to the lave without their skin searing off, the way they're able to maintain a steady altitude with all the hot air beneath them. Thankfully, the scene is still well done in the visual and staging department, so in the end, I'm all right with it.
I have to agree with you on the forging, Greg. I think I was okay with it until my brother pointed out that you're supposed to cool it AFTER it's been hammered into a proper shape. I never thought about the lack of a mold before, but pouring it on the ground never made much sense to me. Still, I love your little "forgotten scene," Greg.
Ophelia really did raise a good point here. And even though Elisa's argument seems to close the discussion, it really was kind of lame (at least my mother thought so we she saw this). I mean, how would Elisa feel if she came back from the World Tour and found a bunch of strangers squatting in her apartment? Oberon and his Children may have been gone for 1001 years, but as Luna said, "What is time to an immortal."
A better argument would have been that while Oberon can afford to be magnanimous and allow them to stay with no real problem, the Avalon clan couldn't so easily pull up stakes and leave to a world they are not really prepared for. Thus it becomes a question of necessity and survival. They HAVE to use the weapon, whether they like it or not.
Goliath typically tries to send Angela and Gabriel away, and typically they remain. "Gargoyles stand together. That is our way." So things have come to where Angela is reminding Goliath of the Gargoyle Way.
I love the way Oberon's hand looks when he calls up the ground to attack the gargoyles. I also enjoy Goliath's little dig, "But did Titania want the Island to defeat us, or you?"
Goliath has a real "Hulk" moment here. His eyes glow brighter then I've ever seen them, his roar manages to sound fiercer, and he breaks the rocks in front of him with a two fisted smash as he lunges at Oberon.
Then Oberon turns into a diamond. Jerk. I did love the "Now you're just quibbling" bit. And it's a wonder Angela and Gabriel didn't cut their knuckles on Oberon's cheeks and chin (those edges could probably cut glass). Even though his power is reduced, Oberon uses it more effectively than most of the Children we've found in this series.
But even after taking out Angela and Gabriel, Oberon gets caught off guard by one last attack from Goliath. His "Good, very good," actually sounds impressed.
A tangent here, I wonder if maybe Goliath really did impress Oberon--more then anyone else even. I mean, Goliath was the first one to speak to him with some amount of respect and decorum, and has displayed great strength and at the end a bit of wit and cunning. Of course, Oberon still knows that Goliath could never beat him, but maybe he gained a little respect for the gargoyle.
Oberon returns home to what was supposed to be victory and winds up facing defeat. I had not expected a bell--having not been as familiar with the old legends as Todd--but when Elisa gave a little re-statement of Titania's lines, it started to make perfect sense.
I don't know for certain if the Guardian was going to kill Oberon and only let up at the last minute. I kind of hope not, I hope it was more of a show for Oberon, but I admit it would be more interesting if that was the case. At any rate, Ophelia seems pleased that they weren't going to kill the proper Lord of the place. And heck, Goliath helps Oberon to stand.
Oberon says he will reward the "strange behavior" of mercy by allowing the clan to stay with his blessing and bestowing upon Goliath's clan the Honor Guard position as well as immunity to the arts of the Oberati. Still, the cynic in me wonders if maybe Oberon's just trying to save face with that "reward" bit. ;-D
When Titania calls Oberon "husband"...he smiles. He has a very quiet, but at the same time a very strong joy. I guess he really did miss her.
While Titania is speaking with Goliath, Oberon is in the background talking rather animatedly with...I think it was Angela and Gabriel. Complimenting them on their performance in the chase? I guess he can be a rather nice guy to speak with when he's not pulling rank.
And then Titania says she helped "To repay a favor rendered." I had not picked up that both she and Anastasia were voiced by Kate Mulgrew, and didn't until Anastasia spoke in THE GATHERING. As a result, this left me racking my brain trying to figure out when they came across Titania and whether or not it was in one of the two episodes I missed.
I figured, with all the talk from our travelers about going home, and with finally seeing the Lord and Lady of the Third Race, we'd finally get home in the next episode.
I wasn't quite right. :-))
A nice payoff to nearly a season's worth of pipe-laying.
Hey, I'm nothing if not a good pipe-layer.
After reading your old outline of "Future Tense", I had a couple of comments on it.
1. I honestly hadn't realized the irony involved there in having Demona reform - only now Goliath still can't be reunited with her since now she's Brooklyn's mate! That certainly gives a whole new dimension to her role in "Future Tense". (Maybe I hadn't picked up on it since by now Goliath was moving towards Elisa anyway, in such a way that would make Demona's reform too late in another manner.)
2. I also noticed that, at this stage in the development, Talon had the role which would later be occupied by Alex in fighting Xanatos in cyberspace in Act II. I can't help but think that the later decision to make it Alex instead actually made the scene better, because it added a new and chilling element to it: Xanatos is killing his own son. That made the scene even darker than just killing Talon (who wouldn't have as much significance to him) - not to mention making possible the line "Since I'm immortal, I have no need for an heir."
Yeah, being chilling was the whole point. So we tried to constantly up the stakes in that episode. Nowadays, you could never do half what we did in "Future Tense". Frankly, I'm amazed it still airs.
CLOUD FATHERS
When this episode first aired, I had missed both THE CAGE and KINGDOM--leaving me very out of the loop as far as what happened with Derek was concerned, and making this episode the first time I ever saw Beth Maza. As a result, my initial feeling was one of frustration at having lost part of the continuity. Thankfully, however, it was easy enough to figure out that the Maza family had found out about Derek's condition and Xanatos' part in it. I guess that made it *slightly* easier for them to accept living gargoyles.
In addition, since I had missed KINGDOM, this was the first time I had seen Xanatos since the World Tour started.
And Xanatos is just GREAT here. He has his moment of "cliched villainy" with the death trap (and even looks upon it as such), but he also seems much more intense this time around. He has that large "staple gun" thingy that he uses to restrain Angela and Goliath, but he also uses it on two seperate occasions as a weapon--and this thing could really kill someone! Even as a villain, Xanatos is likeable enough that you kind of forget he has the potential to be a killer. Even the death trap doesn't drive that home to me as much as his battle tactics here do.
However, before that, Xanatos' admission that he really has no interest in killing Goliath and Angela is quite refreshing--and further proof that he's not the typical animated nemesis. I even love the almost friendly look on his face as he admits neither gargoyle has done anything he'd hold a grudge against (does Xanatos even HAVE any grudges?).
Naturally, once I found out he was after Coyote the Trickster, I figured he was after immortality. His whole conversation with the Trickster is just perfectly written.
I also loved Xanatos "annoyance" at the end--FINALLY he got handed a real defeat that he could not look on the bright side of. Finally, Goliath (with a little help from his friends) was able to get under his skin, if just a smidge. I wondered, and I'm sure I wasn't alone, if this indicated a "final confrontation" was brewing. Of course, that's not what happened, but this works as a nice little misdirection.
The Robot, Coyote 4.0 was also nice, and a real treat for me to have him and Xanatos interacting. Nice design, although the "face" looked weird. More angular than usual, and sometimes the "skull" side looked like it had an eyebrow. Regardless, I love the two playing off each other, and am goofishly pleased when Xanatos, with his helmet on, is talking with Coyote 4.0, whose "face" is showing. I've always wondered what someone flipping channels would have made of this scene where there appear to be two robots talking--one with a half-human face.
Actually, that particular conversation does not speak very highly for Coyote 4.0's intelligence. He releases the Trickster ("I will check...") and then allows himself to be goaded into bringing a building down on top of him ("I should warn you, I'm programmed for vengence"). Yeah, you can definitely see the Wile E. Coyote resemblence. Now if you could have just had him hold up a little pink umbrella a split-second before the building came down on him.... ;-)
The Trickster himself was unique--the only wholly sympathetic Trickster we have met. Raven and Anansi were the antagonists of their respective episodes, and Puck...while he was enchained by Demona he didn't seem to mind giving our heroes a hard time. Coyote (the Trickster, not the Robot) not only willingly helped our heroes, but actually showed some real affection for one of them--that, of course, being Peter Maza.
Also, this Trickster was a lot more subtle--he rarely used any overt magic (a little hypnosis here, vanishing there, changing his clothes inside the Robot...). He mostly goaded others into acting (influencing luck from the sidelines, of course), and managed to take out the Robot by just dodging behind the support beams.
As for Peter Maza himself, it's nice to see more development in Elisa's dad, and showcasing where he came from. His story kind of parallels with Natsilane's, but Peter is older, more set in his beliefs--it takes more than gargoyles to convince him to believe in Coyote the Trickster. Peter also had a much more bitter break with his traditions, a good deal of which comes through with what was probably his last conversation with his father. When I first saw this ep, I had no idea that Carlos Maza had died. Having Elisa and Beth refer to "Grandpa" made me think he was still around for some reason. Of course, that made the final scene all the more poignant.
It was also nice to see and learn more about Beth. I like how each of the Maza "kids" are distinctive in personality and looks as well.
It's also nice that when Elisa realizes where they are, her first thought has to do with her family ("Beth might be in danger"). And I love the surprise in her voice when she sees her father is there as well. She is really happy to see them.
Random thoughts:
It took me a couple viewings before I started to pick up on the skiff having arrived in a pool. I rather like that twist.
When Peter and Beth start to explain to Elisa about being arrested and she asks them to start from the beginning. I don't know why but I really find that scene interesting.
Beth and Peter's reactions to the gargs are nice. Peter shows that he's probably not 100% on the whole "gargoyle" thing when he refers to them as "strange company." Beth is obviously a bit more open to them, although even she admits they seem "alien" (and no, I did not take that to mean "extraterrestrial"). Elisa, however, is used to looking at them through her own eyes, and as she says, all she sees is the beauty.
Coyote the Trickster's reverse psycology was a rather nice touch. Even better was Elisa's later comment that it was "pretty blatant."
Xanatos tries to fire from his arm-cannon only to have it kind of blow up in his face since Bronx already chewed it up. Xanatos' line here ("Big mistake, people!") always struck me as odd for some strange reason. I guess I'm not used to hearing Xanatos say something like that.
"No way my luck's this bad." I just love that line.
Beth's little pause before clarifying "uh, The Trickster, not the Robot." A nice beat that also kind of winks at the audience.
"The last thing I remember was ordering a pizza." Another bit I just love for some reason.
Peter's change of heart and appearing in the kachina garment was something I had been expecting. However, Coyote the Trickster's little speech was a surprise. It added an extra level to what Coyote was doing and Peter's part in everything. I love that little "I had to get you back" moment.
I noticed that Beth Maza had a different voice actress here than she did in THE CAGE. I'm not offering this as a complaint or nitpick, I'm just curious if there's any particular reason why.
Xanatos and Coyote alone make this a worthwhile ep, but the other elements really help turn it into one of the best eps on the World Tour.
It's been a long time. The casting change was the choice of our voice and casting director Jamie Thomason. But I can't now recall what the reason was. Perhaps the original actress was unavailable. And in any case Roxanne Beckford, who also played Tea in "Night of the Panther" is always great.
I just wanted to post a review for the Gargoyles DVD... something I waited for, and with great relish purchased, after 10 years of waiting! This DVD is awesome! I just finished watching (and listening to) the commentary track.... and was blown away by the factoids and the care that the creators still have for the show. Like many others... Gargoyles had a big influence on my life and artistic career! I certainly hope that Disney will satisfy my desire and put the rest of the Gargoyles episodes (yes the ENTIRE second season!) on another DVD set!
Thanks so much! Take care!
Thank you. Hope you picked up Season Two, Volume One....
Thanks for the "Ill Met By Moonlight" ramble, Greg! (And it's a pity that people keep on misreading it, as well. Maybe they need to read a little more Shakespeare and come across the original line. :))
I'm at a slight disadvantage at reviewing this episode, since I missed "Ill Met By Moonlight" the first time that it aired (or, more accurately, wasn't able to see it properly, since I'd just gotten a new television set that didn't have an antenna yet and so wasn't able to make out the picture very well). By the time that I did get to see it properly, I'd also already seen "The Gathering" and so got to meet Oberon and Titania through it instead. (It also meant that I already knew that Titania and Anastasia Renard were the same person, and since I'd already seen "Walkabout" by this time, knew therefore what Titania was talking about when she made that remark to Goliath at the end.)
You didn't say much about the Weird Sisters in this episode, but there were two small bits about them that stick with me. The first is that, when Oberon's burying the Avalon clan alive, the Sisters exchange little smiles with each other in a way that makes them look almost like a school tattletale who's just gotten someone sent to the principal's office and is gloating about it.
The second (which I think is especially intriguing) comes at the end, when Selene (the Sister representing vengeance) is clearly angry over the way that events have turned out, but Luna (the Sister representing fate) holds up one hand silently. Fate restraining Vengeance - that definitely makes me wonder what was going on there, especially since you said that the Sisters still had other plots brewing. Pity that we'll probably never find out now what they were.
I don't know for certain whether I was expecting Oberon and Titania to show up in the series, but I'm glad that they got in; it would be odd if they were only to be mentioned but never actually appear.
This was definitely one of the more "Shakespeare-heavy" episodes. Oberon, Titania, and the Weird Sisters are on-stage characters, Puck is mentioned, the title is taken from Shakespeare, there's a gargoyle named Ophelia, plus the lines "The game is afoot" (I wonder how many people know that Shakespeare wrote that long before Sir Arthur Conan Doyle created Sherlock Holmes) and "All's well that ends well".
Ophelia raised a good point about the issue of Oberon having a prior claim over Avalon. (Indeed, one question that I've seen raised once in the comment room is why the Avalon clan stayed so long on Avalon; the initial reason was to escape Constantine, but since he was overthrown only two years after they fled, that reason was now moot. On the other hand, anti-gargoyle sentiment didn't die with Constantine - not by a long shot - so I can see why it would want a hiding place that humans could never reach.)
The notion of casting the iron into the shape of a bell worked for me, and fitted in nicely with faerie lore, where the faerie-folk couldn't stand bells. (This seems to have been for religious reasons in the original stories - the bells in question were church bells and the faeries were imagined as being old gods dwindled with the waning of paganism - but here the concept used instead is that the bell is made out of iron.) I'll confess that I don't know enough metallurgy to recognize that the forging of the bell wasn't all that accurate. I also liked Titania's clever little word-play with "ring" in giving the clue.
Good explanation for why Oberon was acting in the same way towards mortals that he'd condemned Titania for acting a thousand years earlier. (Though I did wonder when I first saw the episode why Oberon hadn't had any problems with another mortal - King Arthur - sleeping on Avalon. Of course, the fact that Arthur was spending all that time in an enchanted slumber in an out-of-the-way location like the Hollow Hill would have made that different - as well as what you mentioned about Oberon owing Merlin a favor.)
Thanks again for the ramble. I'm looking forward to the "Future Tense" one next.
Re: the Weird Sisters plots. I wouldn't say never. Especially now that we've got the comic book.
BUSHIDO
LOVE the opening shot on the mask!
This was an episode I had been waiting for ever since I had read about the second season introducing Japanese gargoyles. Actually, this clan managed to make itself distinctive in more ways than mere physicality (although, even that was unique--Japanese gargoyles seem to have a profusion of horns, spurs and juts, and I love the "dragon-dog"). Their facing inward was an excellent touch, as was connecting them to samurai. Actually, this ep was the first place I'd ever heard about Bushido.
I never really picked up on the parrallels between this and AWAKENING until you mentioned them some time ago, Greg. Now, I can hardly understand how I missed them. Maybe because I never took Taro as seriously as Xanatos--I mean, c'mon...a theme park?! Xanatos wants immortality and his own super team. No contest, man. And whereas Demona was focused on "getting rid of the humans," Yama wants just the opposite: greater contact. Unfotunately, he seems to want it not just in his own lifetime, but immediately. Haste makes waste, I guess.
However, this time out, I really noticed the similarity between Kai and Goliath. Even in physicality--they've got the same damn chin!
Actually, I was quite surprised to see a couple gargoyles that looked even bigger and more muscular than Goliath.
And I do wish we had seen more of Sora. She had a very unique look (and not just because she's the only two-toed gargoyle I've seen). Exotic and beautiful. The chance of a guest appearance by her alone is enough to make me want "BAD GUYS" on the air. And she's Yama's mate! That guy didn't know how good he had it!
Of course, the biggest thing was the fact that the humans and gargoyles were buddies. It was nice to actually see gargs being able to stand in the street rubbing shoulders with the human inhabitants. One does wonder how it remains "the best kept secret in Japan" if they occasionally capture crooks from out of town (like the ones we meet at the beginning). I guess if a town has "monsters" on its side you'd just as soon leave and forget about it.
Yama and Taro's little asides indicate early on that they're up to something. It's very easy here--and later on with his rather stand-offish attitude--to assume Yama is as complete a villain as Taro. But Yama really does want a better life for his clan (and his kind in general), and that's probably why he remains blind to Taro's true nature until he hears about the press.
I, too, love Goliath's line, "And you will solve this problem by charging admission." I also love Taro's reaction--he ignores it.
"Gargoyle must not fight gargoyle!" I had never seen "Planet of the Apes" before this, so I didn't get that little tribute initially. Instead, it seemed like a further indication of the Ishimura clan's cultural distinctiveness--that they have some sort of "law" specifically stating this.
Hiroshi's sacrifice (of his car). Having been through three accidents myself (and with my brother's poor car being totalled this past weekend), I feel so sorry for Hiroshi here. I love the way he asks, "Is this the only way?"
Actually, Hiroshi seems to have a pretty good sense of humor about him. "Excuse me. I was looking for the snack bar."
It took me a while before I got the "TV stars" joke.
One bit I really started noticing recently is when Kai says to Yama something along the lines of, "You helped build this, so YOU may stay." Nowadays, that bit seems to indicate the "start" of Yama's exile.
What did that little gargoyle-head that Taro pulled do? Set off a silent alarm of some kind?
Taro dresses as a Samurai--even while deriding Bushido.
The electric fans are an excellent touch (and I love the shot of Taro passing them in front of his face).
Yama partially redeems himself here by taking on Taro. He sure is tough--look at the way he takes both fans on the shoulders! However, there is a moment in here I can't help but laugh at--Yama says, "He's mine" and squares off against Taro, only to be knocked down by an electric blast within five seconds.
For a character as arrogant as Taro (and that arraogance is part of the reason he failed), his humiliating "press conference" is an excellent punishment. And, of course, Elisa and Hiroshi don't help him (it's great the way they just throw themselves into their little act). And the Frank Welker-goylebot is just great.
Like Todd, I have to question Taro's holding the press conference at dawn. I suppose Taro just wanted to be sure the gargoyles didn't have any real time to escape, but if so it was a wasted effort.
Some other random thoughts:
Taro was voiced by an actor named James Saito. I'm wondering if this is the same James Saito who starred in the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" movie as the Shredder (the body, his voice was dubbed by another actor).
RE: Taro and Bruno having the same type of dart gun. Check the bottom--it's probably got "Made in Japan" stamped on it. ;-)
You don't consider being a "living walkaround character in a theme park" hell? I know I would!
It would have been nice to have some Japanese language in this ep (people forget that "Batman: The Animated Series" managed to pull it off), but at least samurai and Bushido were brought up.
I love how Yama JUST dodges the knife.
And Elisa in a kimono. 'Nuff said.
I really do enjoy this episode, and am only sad that we couldn't see more of Yama, Sora and the rest of the clan (here or in "Bad Guys").
Technically, the line is a tribute to "BATTLE FOR the Planet of the Apes".
SENTINEL
Here's my ramble (better late than never).
Up front I'll say this ep is always a bit difficult for me to watch because of the "unfairly accused" angle with Nokkar and the gargoyles. Injustice in any form has always raised my hackles, and the way Nokkar is so convinced of the gargoyles' guilt (without any REAL evidence) just ticks me off.
I admit, Nokkar gets less slack from me than either Talon or the Banshee in this regard. Talon was being deliberately deceived (by Xanatos--'nuff said), and the Banshee was a bit of an unscrupulous character anyway, but Nokkar is acting on his own judgement AND he's supposed to be the GOOD GUY! The sheer certainty with which he pronounces the gargoyles as invaders just strikes me as...well, deplorable.
I understand that he's a "sentinel" and all that, but still...if nothing else the fact that he couldn't identify "[their] planet of origin" should have sent off some warning lights in his head. Elisa bringing up "gargoyle statues" may not have immediately turned Nokkar's mind to the moai raised in his honor, but he might have at least thought to pursue that line of inquiry. And how long would it take for Elisa's memory to come back? A sentinel may not be "permitted to take prisoners" but he had no problem holding the gargoyles until he had them all, and had given Elisa the tour of his ship. Would it have been so bad to wait until Elisa's memories had returned?
Like I said, Nokkar's a good guy--and with Elisa he's down right pleasent (real nice and gentle--so just seeing how certain he is when he's in the wrong is very frustrating to me.
It can also be frustrating when Goliath is trying his best to (re-)connect with an amnesiac Elisa, but fun at the same time. One thing I've noticed is that Goliath's familiarity with Elisa kind of worked against him in the hotel room. I mean, his entrance (and line, "I'm afraid I cannot allow that") and behavior are almost the sort of things you'd expect from a villain, but he's just trying to protect his...uh, friend (his GOOD friend).
Actually, I love that line: "Elisa, please. We've been friends for over a year--GOOD friends! We've been...--"[I've always wondered if he was about to stumble into a verbal declaration of love here, but instead he follows it up with]--"traveling together with my daughter, Angela, and Bronx."
I, too, enjoy Elisa's calling him Tiny. And the "Holy Grail" bit was just sweet.
Goliath loves histrionics. Just look at the way he gestures when saying "The Castle...Xanatos...Gargoyles!"
I really like the presentation of Nokkar in terms of his physicality, and his technology. He truly is quite alien (I wonder if any fans have tried to puzzle out his science). Watching the episode today, I noticed just how tube like his body is--thin and ramrod straight. His weapons and ship are also fairly unique--the laser-tongue and mini-bot especially.
Still, it always throws me off how, when blasted, his seemingly metal ship appears to have the consistency of stone. Oh, well.
The archeologists from "LIGHTHOUSE..." return--much to my surprise. I had honestly expected never to see them again. I suppose it would have been a bit much for Dr. Sato from "DEADLY FORCE" to show up here as well. ;)
I'm glad to hear John Rhyes-Davies as Morwood-Smyth again (I apologize for my spelling here).
Actually, it's good voice acting all around as usual. Salli does a great job with Elisa's confusion and fear. Even Clyde Kusastsu (sp?) makes his "Dr. Arnada" sound different from the character he will be playing in our next episode.
Special note must be given to Avery Brooks and Nokkar's particular sound. Avery Brooks has a very distinctive way of speaking, and it works quite well for an alien who has had to learn English as a second (or even third or fourth) language. Also, the sound guys did a great job with the modulation for Nokkar--it has led me to speculate how his voice box must function.
The destruction of the Moai head...yeah, that always disturbed me, too.
I'm not sure what my initial reaction was to extraterrestrials being introduced into gargoyles like this, but I never had any problems with it. Some folks, I think, found it a bit TOO out there, but I just viewed it as another story possibility (and I have to admit I am VERY interested in G2198--though I do hope we see some of how Arnada and the Archeologists adjust to this new wrinkle in their lives).
As for putting the "Gargoyles are aliens" theory to rest...I think you'd have to insert a clip of yourself saying something like, "They're not aliens, they never were, they're completely home grown--get used to it." And even THAT might not stop it.
Random thought: Did Elisa remember the incantation to get to Avalon? Did Goliath teach it to her before sleeping? If not, that's going to be one LONG day at sea--especially with that storm on the horizon.
Ya gotta figure that before he turned to stone, he'd have given Elisa the info she needed.
Re: "Cloud Fathers"
Wile E. 4.0??? LOL
Xanatos: "It's so hard to program good help these days." LOL
Seriously, There is a great deal of great writing in this episode. The quotes you pointed out are just some great examples of how great the writers on this series were.
1) Did you write lines like those, "The deep end," "Hard to program good help..." or was that purly the writers?
Peter V. Carlos: "Cloud Fathers" deals with a serious topic. I know someone like Peter who hasn't spoken to a relative for a while. I know what it does to people, so I know what Peter might have been going through.
The Pool: I know it was a swimming pool right off the bat. My friends and I watched "Gargs" at 4:30 (we did it almost every weekday together) and I remember saying to my friends, "Man, that Skiff goes everywhere! Will it show up in my bathtub?"
I actually hated this episode the first few tiems I saw it. My friend (who i watched the show with) is Native, from New Mexico (He moved to Canada) and he thought the episode mocked native culture. Well we were wrong, and we actually like the episode a whole lot more now.
1. Most of it, I'm sure, was the writers, though I did tend to throw in a line here and there, and/or tweak a line here or there. And of course, great lines are nothing without great line-readings... so credit also our actors and Voice Director.
And we certainly weren't trying to mock Native Culture at all. In fact, we ran the script by an expert or two to make sure we were being respectful.
Thanks for the "Cloud Fathers" ramble, Greg!
I will confess that I can't remember from my first-time viewing whether I was surprised or not by the revelation at the end that Carlos Maza had passed on. However, I do find myself wondering, whenever I watch it on tape now, whenever either Elisa or Beth asks Peter if he wants to "go visit grandfather" while he's in town, how many first-time viewers did suspect that Carlos was dead, and how many were surprised.
Arizona, incidentally, now has a little more personal significance to me than it did when the episode first aired; my mother and stepfather moved there a few years ago (they live in the Phoenix area). They've sometimes mentioned Flagstaff in conversations with me, but haven't as yet mentioned anything about sand-carvings of Coyote or Kachina dancers. :)
Xanatos's "cliched villainy" line is a particular favorite of mine; only Xanatos would make such a remark! Though the bit where he admits that he has no desire to kill Goliath or any of the other gargoyles - this is just a necessary part of his coyote-trap - definitely stands out to me as well. You don't see the main antagonist saying that to the hero too often in an animated adventure series!
I liked the touch of the Cauldron of Life being incorporated into Coyote 4.0. (As I mentioned once in chat, it reminds me a bit of the scene in "Camelot 3000" where Mordred incorporates the Holy Grail into his armor.) The mention of the iron obviously was a foreshadowing of what was coming in the very next episode. (Was Xanatos's follow-up remark of "Ironic" intended as a pun, by the way?)
I also got a kick out of the mild confusion over "Which Coyote are we talking about here?" - the best part of all being when Coyote the Trickster threatens to sue Xanatos for trademark infringement. (And Xanatos's response that he's a "trickster at heart" rings true to me - the man's living proof that you don't have to be a Child of Oberon to be a trickster. He fulfills the archetype just as surely as Puck, Raven, and the rest do.)
I hadn't noticed the similarity of the Coyote robot to Wile E. Coyote until you mentioned it here at "Ask Greg" (not in this ramble, but in earlier answers to questions), but I certainly see it now. (Though, judging from the name of a certain merchant in "Vendettas", Coyote the robot isn't the only "Gargoyles" character to be influenced by Wile E. Coyote!)
So the multiple trickster story was what you'd originally planned for the Puck-and-Alex story before you decided to merge it with the Cold Trio for "Possession"?
Thanks for another enjoyable ramble, Greg.
I'm not sure the iron/ironic thing was an intentional pun. But it was so long ago, I may have forgotten.
The Multi-Trickster story was indeed slotted for our 64th episode... with Reckoning planned as our 65th. Then at some point, we learned that Hunter's Moon would not be a direct to video, but would instead have to be folded into our regular series. So HM1-3 became episodes 63-65. Reckoning was moved back to 61, so that we'd have at least a little Demona distance between Reckoning and HM. And then we had to combine a few springboards to make room for Hunters Moon. (For example, Vendettas was a combo of two springboards: (1) Vinnie's Vendetta and (2) Hakon & Wolf's Vendetta.)
So another couple of springboards we combined were the Multi-Trickster story and the Coldtrio story. Cary Bates and I worked the combo for some time, but we finally RAN OUT OF TIME. We were on deadline, and we just couldn't crack a story with so much going on. So we simplified back down to one Trickster, i.e. Puck.
I not asking a question. I'am just writing to rave about the Gargoyles season one dvd. I loved it. Ever since I was able to say the word Gargoyles I have watched the show religiously. I was so excited to see the first season I screamed in joy when I saw it on the shelf at the store. I have really high hopes that the second and third season will come out on dvd soon. I really hope so. Cause that would be so cool!
It was and hopefully WILL be if we SPREAD THE WORD! (Have I said that recently?)
I have no questions, just writing my review and support for the Gargoyles DVD.
I love it so much. I watched it all the minute I ripped it out of the Christmas wrapping!It brought back so many memories! I was fourteen when the show aired and watching it all over again has made me more aware of storylines I didn't pay attention to before. Really, no other animated series has ever topped Gargoyles.
I especially love the commentaries and wished there had been more, but I'm sure that's simply asking too much. I love all the inside information and spoilers. I especially enjoyed the warmth and humor through out the commentaries.
I would like to put in my part in saying that I desperately, desperately want to see Gargoyles Season II come out and soon. I may be a poor college student but I would happily spend my financial aid money to buy season two instead of textbooks!
On another note, I want to thank you Greg Weisman for adding Shakespeare into the series. It inspired me to read Shakespeare, love Shakespeare and now I'm on my last year of college hoping to one day soon, teach Shakespeare.
That is tremendously gratifying. Thank you for relaying that here.
This is just a brief post to let everyone (especially the folks at Disney) know how wonderful the first season of Gargoyles DVD set is. I got it for Christmas and have watched it at least three times since then, hooking a new generation of kids too young to have seen the show during its original airing. I'm particularly glad the decision was made to keep "Deadly Force" in the set, instead of removing it entirely for its 'excessive violence'. That episode truly highlights the danger of guns, and I was very proud that my young nieces and nephews were able to grasp that concept immediately. I am waiting with impatience for the release of seasons two and three; they definitely have one sale already in the bag. Thank you.
No, thank YOU!
It's funny how you would bring up "Ask Greg" in the commentary on the fifth episode of the five-part pilot. You've asked us to review the DVD so I'm going to give mine. I'll try to touch base with the same elements I have reviewed at Amazon.com, and if I don't get to them all, oh well. I'm only human.
Anyway...
First all, I have to say I like how much better it looks compared to when it was aired on television. I know, duh everything looks better on DVD than it does on television. But being able to see it in it's original, unedited form. I haven't seen it like that for a very long time. That is definately a plus.
I put the disc in, skip the introductory crud, and the first thing I see is the animated menu. I don't know how many times I just let it run through, I mean it is that good. I have never seen anything like it. Now getting back to the introductory crud, Power Rangers? How the hell did Disney ever have anything to do with Power Rangers? Ok, back on topic...
I start the whole thing through beginning with the five-part pilot. I like having all the key elements to the story unlike what The Heroes Awaken VHS that I got for Christmas nine years ago lacks. Back then I found that to be a disappointment. Another great disappointment that has been taken care of very well is Deadly Force. Not only is it there, but Elisa is lying in the pool of blood on the kitchen floor too. Not a single element has been booted out, and we can thank Disney for finally righting this wrong. If you ask me, justice has finally been served.
The audio commentary on the five-part pilot, though identified as spoilerish by a few others that have viewed it, tells of how this great idea came to pass and how the five-part pilot sets the stage for the upcoming events through the second season. I thought it was well done. Hearing the comment about the show pitch and seeing the tape that pulled through definately puts this rule of thumb into perspective - Don't you dare quit. Quitters only gain nothing.
Now for the part that says, "Where's the beef?" Viewing the part on the Gathering is the closest I've been to one. And according to a comment I have found here somewhere about costing $800 just for the trip, it's the closest I'm probably ever going to get. I'm like, dude, it costs that much $$ just to get there? As if I wasn't furious enough that I've never been to one. No plan D here. I'll have become a gargoyle long before I have the dough to cover all those expenses. Since all I have for this is beef I think I'll move on.
I would like to see the second season come out, but I feel there are a few things about it that need to be addressed. Compared to the first season, which has 13 episodes, the second season has a long string of 51. In order to put this on DVD, there are two possible outcomes. We would either find it on a set of four discs, or on a set of two double-sided discs. I think the double-sided ones would be better because it would fit in a regular case instead of a big monstrosity. Either way, it'll be a bit pricey but worth it. So a word to the wise - now is the time to start saving up for it.
Indeed.
Hello. I wasn't sure where to put this so I decided to submit it this way. I heard that in Febuary talks will be held to decide if Gargoyles season 2 and onwards should be put on DVD, and that people should write brief reviews of the show that could be shown to execs and such to show why we need season 2 on DVD. I should probally start with the fact that I didn't watch the original broadcasts. For some reason I just "missed" the show. However I had seen a few episodes prior to my DVD purchase due to the fact that Disney still shows Gargoyles every so often. I had high expectations when I bought the DVD, due to the fact that Gargoyles has a HUGE fanbase, just like Family Guy, one of my other favorite animated shows. Let me tell you, the DVDs didn't dissapoint. I loved everything about the show, from the beautiful choice of colors used to animate night in Manhattan to the brilliant script and acting. The only thing I would want different in the 2nd season boxset is MORE COMMENTARY! I found the commentary on the first 5 episodes facinating, and if the 2nd season had commentary on (hopefully most of) the episodes I would be estatic! I don't want to ramble any further, but all I can say is that I want more! I never got the chance to see how the series progresses, and a Season 2 DVD release would finally let me see how the series plays out.
Agreed.
I was lucky enough to recieve the Gargoyles Season one DVD for Christmas, and reaffirmed my love of the show. I think I appreciate it now more than ever, since I've read some Shakespeare and no longer rely on Disney Adventures for fandom news. Through various internet linkages, I discovered your site, and think it's amazingly wonderful that you're still feeding our obsession.
Watching the show as a kid, I saw a cool story, interesting imagery, and something worth running to the television for when it came on. Watching as an adult, I still see the cool story and amazing visuals, but also the tiny details, little tidbits that are easily overlooked in a casual viewing. I would like to add my voice to those asking to see the further seasons released on DVD, as the first has only whet my appetite for more.
Thanks. That was the goal. Something to appeal to all age groups.
Gargoyles is the best show ever made. Thank you Mr. Weisman, the cast and crew, and especially Disney for taking a chance and scoring big with myself, and all those who still love the show, and those who have just been distracted, thank you.
You're welcome, Jay.
Thanks for the "Bushido" ramble, Greg!
I hadn't realized the "Awakening" parallel (at least, not the parallel with the 994 portion of "Awakening") until you brought it up (not in this ramble, actually, but in an earlier reply here at "Ask Greg"), but it certainly works for me. And I agree that Yama, fortunately for the gargs, had held on to more of his courage and understanding of the "gargoyle way" than Demona had (I especially liked the scene where he discovers to his disgust that Taro had been lying about the first visitors to the theme park being a group of schoolchildren who wished to learn bushido - the fact that he had believed that those would be the first visitors illustrates his good intentions there).
The Ishimura gargoyles remind me a little of the tengu, a race of winged beings in Japanese legend who sometimes taught humans bushido (continuing the concept that you'd used in the Avalon World Tour of tying gargoyles in with other legends, as I mentioned before).
I agree with you that Taro isn't up to Xanatos's level. For one thing, though Xanatos might get defeated, he always did so in a way that essentially preserved his dignity; I simply cannot imagine him winding up dangling from a gigantic animatronic gargoyle in front of a crowd of reporters. (For that matter, I also can't help wondering why Taro would have wanted to have the reporters show up at dawn rather than dusk to get their first glimpse of the gargoyles; if I wanted to introduce people to gargoyles in an impressive way, I'd want it to be when they were bursting out of their stone shells in the evening. That'd be much more powerful and dramatic.)
Yama's concerns about gargoyle secrecy certainly worked for me, and although he went about solving the problem in the wrong way, I can certainly agree with him about the secrecy having its drawbacks. It does strike me that part of the reason why humans fear gargoyles is because about all that they usually see of them is their charging about growling, with eyes glowing, in battle-fury - a condition that certainly makes it easier to jump to the wrong conclusion about them. Would humans be so ready to make that mistake if they got to see more of the gargoyles when they weren't simply fighting? Also, there's the danger that if you just keep secret, somebody else might reveal you to the world under less favorable circumstances than the ones that you'd have chosen (such as claiming on a news broadcast that you blew up a police station in New York). It does make one wonder whether the gargoyles have been a little too passive in working for peace with humans, just sitting around and hoping that the humans will learn to accept them on their own, rather than actively working towards it.
And I got a big kick out of the metareferencing in Elisa's "TV stars" line, and Goliath's horrified cry of "No!" (Goliath's line was made all the funnier, for me, by Keith David's reading of it - making it sound as if Goliath truly considered such a prospect a fate worse than death!)
Perhaps one of the most important aspects of "Bushido" is that it shows a community where humans and gargoyles live together harmoniously, showing that Goliath's belief that such a thing is possible is indeed accurate. (We saw a bit of that on Avalon, but that was an unusual case - humans raising young gargoyles as if they were adopted children. This is a more "conventional" community.) Hope is indeed possible.
Again, thank you for the ramble.
A big theme of the World Tour was hope. Intentionally.
Just to let people know that I received the Garg DVD, and it was absolutely brilliant! The special features were ace, I loved watching the interviews from folks at the Gathering. It was the closest I've ever come to actually going to the convention, so it was cool to see what the place was like. It was quite funny when I saw some of the original pictures for the clan and I saw the one of Hudson, as he looked more like a dog than Bronx ever did. And all the sound and picture quality on all the episodes was excellent, I enjoyed watching the 1st season again and again and again...
I'm glad!
Thanks for the "Sentinel" ramble, Greg!
I can no longer remember a lot of my initial responses to the episodes in "Gargoyles", but I can for "Sentinel". And what I remember most about it was this: when I saw the two archaeologists from "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" in the "Previously On" section, I eagerly thought that the episode would have something to do with King Arthur and Griff's quest for Merlin (which I wanted to see more of), since Morwood-Smith and Duane were the ones who'd discovered the Scrolls of Merlin. And I was at first a bit disappointed when it turned out that the background mythology was Easter Island and ancient astronauts, instead - though at least it had that "Holy Grail" line. I've come to accept that since then, however (I suspect that the Quest for Merlin would have worked far better in the projected "Pendragon" spin-off, anyway, since it would be too artificial to have Arthur and Griff constantly bumping into the Manhattan clan on their search).
You can feel reassured that I never thought that the gargoyles were aliens, either before or after the episode. Mostly this was due to the fact that I'd always seen them as fantasy creatures rather than science-fiction creatures; living gargoyles are found far more often in fantasy than science fiction, Goliath and his clan originally hailed from medieval Scotland (and medieval settings fit the fantasy genre better than the sci-fi genre, though they aren't necessarily incompatible with it), their means of being brought into the 20th century involved a wizard's spell, etc.
The business with the amnesiac Elisa struck me as well-handled, although I'm afraid that I don't have anything more to say about it than you already have.
And, yep, I'm afraid that Elisa does wear her short-sleeved black shirt on the Avalon World Tour - and what makes it all the more embarrassing is that we see it on the preceding episode, "The Green"!
I will confess that, although he showed seriously faulty judgment at first, I rather like Nokkar. Despite his stubbornness in believing the gargoyles to be agents for the Space-Spawn, he also displayed a strong sense of concern over the world that he was supposed to protect. After subduing Goliath, he immediately turns to Elisa and asks her if she's all right. He trusts her enough to give her the guided tour of his spaceship. And he chooses to ask her first why she helped the gargoyles escape instead of taking a "shoot first, ask questions" later attitude - and accepts her answer, recognizing that he'd been in the wrong. It makes the resolution at the end (including his finding some new friends) all the more convincing - and makes it clear that he truly is a "protector-figure" like Goliath and Elisa.
Yeah...
Does make me wistful for all the plans we had for both Nokkar and Merlin...
Well, if the comic succeeds...
I don't have a question, actually I was just directed here from another part of Station 8 were it was said you wanted commentary on the DVD. Best DVD Ever, for the best show ever created, I cannot thank you enough for creating this great series. I was fascinated by the commentary on the "Awakening" and even more thrilled when it directed me to this site. Thank you again, I cannot wait for season 2 to be released on DVD, which hopefully is in the works!
Thanks!
I recently got the DVD and there's little enough I can say about the episodes without launching into long rambles.
I looked at the extras, the commentary had a lot of nice information that put little bits in a light. Kieth David's growl not needing reverb... there are odd lengths I would go through if I could count on getting a voice like that.
But, above all, let me thank you for making the changes to the series that you did from the original pitch.
I do think that the more rounded image of the Gargoyles would have been a nice look to them. It reminded me more of the savagery of a rabbid gorrila than the Gargoyles I know which are animalistic in the proud vissage of an eagle. (sort of, I mean, Lexington is a little too cute to be eagle-esque, but there you go).
But, mostly, I like the fact that the Trio aren't just a mischevious group of kids. They're warriors from a time when you had to grow up fast. Yeah, they get in trouble and act pretty much like you'd expect brothers to act, but the seriousness in them makes the funny bits all the funnier.
Finally, best for last, thank you for making Bronx not into an ear-flapping comedy piece. Bronx is so much better as this dog-like beast than he is as something that chews on fire-hydrants.
And, to look to Awakenings, Bronx's reaction to the Trio giving him a name is far better comedy than eating various things. It's just such a perfect dog-like animal reaction, the kind that makes you think he knows exactly what's being said. If I could put words to his reaction, it would be "If you're going to name me, leave me out of it."
All in all, thank you for making the changes you did.
You're welcome. They were all pretty organic, developing over time as more people (like Frank Paur and Michael Reaves) joined the project.
Still the pitch you saw is what SOLD the show, so I'm not sorry it had all the comedy it did.
I loved this show when I was but a young lad but, as many people do, I grew up and forgot about it. Then one day two years ago, quite by accident, I found this website. It rekindled my love for the show and brought me back to a place I hadn't been in years. I started to watch the reruns on Toon Disney almost religiously and become obsessed all over again. I started checking this site daily, hoping to hear some news that Gargoyles was coming back in some way, either in a new form or a release of the classic in DVD format. Finally the news came and I was ecstatic.
Got the Season One DVD for Christmas and I must say FANFREAKIN'TASTIC!
Comments:
Starting with the menus, I loved them. Slow? Yes, but I didn't mind, they looked good. Then I selected to watch Awakening with the commentary. Loved it. Most of it we have read here on Ask Greg, but there were some other things that I hadn't and was interested to find out.
And I have to agree with Mr. David, one of my favorite lines from anything ever is "Know her? I named her!"
All the other episodes looked great! Haven't looked better. Even Enter Macbeth, which in my opinion was lacking the most visually, looked great.
The sound quality was great too! Hearing that music clear and crisp and all the great voices, I was in heaven.
Complaints/Botherings
There's only one thing I would have liked to see and that's more commentary. I'm sure all of you are busy and probably don't have a whole lot of time to just sit around and talk about episodes, and yes we have your Rambles here on Ask Greg, but it would have been nice. Other than that, loved it!
And though the other extras were few, they were great. I loved seeing the original pitch, seeing how the ideas started out and then comparing them to how they turned out.
In conclusion to this rambling collection of praise and my personal story with your amazing show I would like to say thank you and I hope the DVD does good enough for a Season Two release and hopefully the rebirth of Gargoyles.
The lack of commentary on additional episodes had nothing to do with us being too busy. This was a budgetary decision on BVHE's part.
I just finished watching the first season DVD. Since Ask Greg seems to be open for questions again (probably proving how infrequently I stop in), I figured it would be as good a place as any to leave my comments.
The first thing I checked out was the commentary. It's always interesting to hear the staff talk about their work, and you get some gems of information you would never hear otherwise. However, I'm a bit disappointed that Keith didn't talk a little bit more frequently in the three episodes of commentary that he participated in. Not that disappointed though, since he did have a few good bits here and there.
That bit about the gun change surprised me; even though my old VHS tape from TV had all the next ep previews/credits/openings cut to run the whole thing in sequence, I had never noticed. Nearly fell out of my couch for that one.
One bit about "The Thrill of the Hunt": one scene that I definitely didn't remember from previous viewings was a gargoyle statue's head being smashed as the Pack scaled the building to chase Goliath and Lexington. Nice to see some cut bits of episodes put back in their rightful places - this little bit makes that scene make that much more sense.
By the time I got to "Deadly Force" (and wow, I just typo'd that as "Deafly Force" there for a minute), I was impressed at how far the envelope was pushed in this series, considering the target audience and timeslot it had. In this episode alone, we not only have the dead body chalk outline on the street, but Elisa actually flatlining for a bit. Wow.
We also have Goliath referring to the first meal of the night as "dinner" here, while two episodes later in "The Edge", Broadway refers to it as "breakfast". I wonder if that means their food choices for said first meal are similarly different...
I think that's all I really wanted to say about the content of the show - since if I went into complete praise and gushing, I'd probably have a novel on my hands. I'd probably also end up derailing myself even further with all my random comments I keep inserting. But rewatching these episodes reminded me of how impressive and epic the series is, and even with a decade of age, that feeling hasn't changed.
Whoa, hey, the blurb about the DVD to my left that I've been staring as while writing this mispells Keith David's first name.
Woo, derailed again.
On the technical side of things now...
DVD menus were fairly OK. Transition times are a bit too long for my taste, but for the most part didn't bother me that much. The imagery is interesting - I was a little bit put off with the main menu animation at first, but I warmed up to it after letting it loop a couple of times. I like the use of the theme song in its original incarnation to depict a duality between the calm of the gargoyles' stone sleep and their nighttime awakening.
I also like how both the Sun and the Moon rise and set in the same direction.
One big thing that surprised me was the lack of chapter stops within each episode. A long history of collecting anime DVDs has taught me that episodes should always be chaptered for quick and easy seeking - in this case, I expected chaptering for Opening, Previously+Act 1, Act 2, Act 3, End Credits. With every episode stored onto its own chapter, I ended up having to memorize the times of points I wanted to return to should I want to jump around, which I think is a tremendous inconvenience for something so easily implemented.
Video quality was impressive, as far as I could tell from the old TV I was watching on. The show pretty much looked just the way it did when I first watched it on TV, without nasty artifacts from our poor terrestrial reception. I was particularly impressed that all the scenes I spot-checked didn't show any combed frames as I stepped through. I bet this would look marvelous on the HDTV.
Keith's growl bit at the Gathering amuses me. I wonder how many times he can do that consecutively. I'd probably have no voice left after one attempt.
I'm left wondering why, after there was a decently-sized Gathering featurette, that there was no link to the Gathering website or any information on the Gathering at Las Vegas in 2005. I thought it would have been the perfect place to put it, unless there are some legal reasons that prevent such a thing. (I was also kind of expecting a disclaimer stating that the Gathering was not affiliated in any way with Walt Disney Co., etc., etc...)
And I think I'll end my disjointed mad ramblings here before inflicting mental harm on any who would happen to read it. Again, I'm glad I finally have the DVD in my hands, and aside from a couple of minor technical gripes, it's fantastic and I have all hopes for getting some more in my hands too.
I would have liked a website for the Gathering too... and I asked for it, but was turned down. I wasn't told why.
I do not have a question, but a swell comment. Thank you Disney for my favorite cartoon on DVD! Out of all the Disney cartoons that I have seen, Gargoyles tops the cake. Please hurry out with Gargoyles Season 2 on DVD. You will make all of us fans of this show quite happy!
Thanks for the kind words.
I picked up the Gargoyles box set 2 weeks ago, and must say I really enjoyed it. The time the DVD makers put in on the menus really impressed me. I haven't watched the show in a long time, and about forgot how great it was. I am really looking forward to the second season comming out on DVD.
Great work, on a great show.
Marc
Thanks!
I finally bought a DVD player yesterday, and watched much of the Gargoyles DVD on it; to be precise, all five parts of "Awakening" with the commentary on, "Deadly Force", the original pitch, and the Gathering documentary. I very much enjoyed the experience as well (once I got used to how to work the DVD player, of course).
I very much liked the commentary, though I'd only recommend it to people who've already become familiar with the series since it contains a number of spoilers (such as Owen really being Puck, the prediction of Xanatos creating the Mutates and Thailog, the prediction of Xanatos making peace with the gargoyles at the end of Season Two, etc.). I did have a little trouble sometimes working out whether it was you or Frank Paur speaking (though I didn't have that trouble with Keith David; his voice is definitely unmistakable).
While much of it was information that I'd already learned from "Ask Greg" and my visit to the 2001 Gathering, there were some new things there that stood out to me, as well as a few old things that I thought I'd briefly comment on:
1. You mentioned about how much of the set-up of Part One of "Awakening" (with the opening scene of the stones falling from the top of the Eyrie Building and the preview of Part Two with Xanatos, the Eyrie Building, the commandos, etc.) was to reassure the audience that "Gargoyles" would be mostly set in the present-day rather than in the 10th century, for fear that they would be turned off the series if they thought that it would be set in the Middle Ages. Interestingly enough, for me when I started watching "Gargoyles", it was the reverse; my favorite part of "Awakening" was the 10th century introduction, and one of my biggest thoughts during it was "Pity that this is just the origin story and that the bulk of the series is going to be in the modern world". (How I'd have enjoyed the "Dark Ages" spin-off!)
2. You mentioned about Goliath being in the wrong to send the trio and Bronx down to the rookery (though with the irony that he thereby saved their lives). When I saw the episode, I always thought that Goliath had done the right thing in punishing Lexington, Brooklyn, and Bronx, however, since regardless of the fact that the humans had started the fight, the three of them were still helping to escalate the hostilities (and all that growling with eyes glowing obviously would only reinforce the humans' fear of gargoyles). Where I did think that Goliath was in the wrong was in sending Broadway with them, since he hadn't been in the fight at all, but was merely peacefully eating at the time.
3. One little bit that still amuses me (part of "Awakening" itself, I might add, though not part of the commentary) is that, directly after Xanatos's line "Pay a man enough, and he'll walk barefoot into Hell", we see one of the workmen dismantling the castle for transportation, with the close-up on his feet (although they're in shoes).
4. I honestly hadn't realized (until you pointed it out here) that Goliath's request of the Magus was suicidal, maybe because I was then aware of the fact that the series was just starting and that the gargoyles were going to be somehow awakened in modern times. But when I looked at it from his perspective rather than that of a viewer who was aware that it was a television series, I realized that it was indeed the case, that Goliath couldn't have known that someday, the castle could rise above the clouds. Which meant that he wasn't asking to be placed under the spell so that he could be there when Hudson, the trio, and Bronx were awakened (as I'd subconsciously assumed) because he didn't think that that would ever happen, but just to gain release from the misery of loneliness.
5. Your remarks about Xanatos being designed to appear deceptively heroic definitely brought back memories for me. When I first saw "Awakening", I didn't know for certain whether Xanatos would be a friend or an opponent to the gargoyles until Part Five, but I wanted to believe that he was on their side, that he was on the level, even though a part of me had suspicions that he would turn out to be the antagonist. And it wasn't until Elisa revealed to Goliath in Part Five about what had really gone on in the Cyberbiotics raids that I had to accept that Xanatos was up to no good.
6. The significance of the Alice in Wonderland sculptures during the scene where Elisa was being chased by the commandos was definitely new to me; I had only thought of them as part of the background, and hadn't realized that they were also symbolic of the new world that she'd just discovered.
7. And thanks for confirming my suspicion that Demona's "a thousand years of solitude" remark was a hommage to Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
8. About Demona revealing her name: that scene always worked for me as dramatic and threatening. What stands out to me about it now, though, was how the expectations or assumptions that I'd had from that line turned out to not match what actually happened in the series. I had believed then that her name arose out of terrified humans whom she was preying upon viewing her as a nightmare straight out of Hell, and then, in "City of Stone", it turns out that she was given that name by a then-ally, and as a means of praising her fighting skills. Talk about skewering the audience's expectations!
I enjoyed seeing the original presentation again. One thing that stands out to me about it now is that, even though the series had by this time clearly switched to a more dramatic genre, there was still a much more strongly comical tone about it than the final version, as in:
1. The depiction of Goliath reading in the 10th century, while seated on a few annoyed-looking smaller gargoyles to keep them out of mischief.
2. The picture of Goliath and Elisa on a subway train, with Goliath wearing a lot of heavy garments to hide the fact that he's a gargoyle, but still getting a lot of attention from the other passengers (which I honestly can't imagine happening in the series itself, though we did get to see Broadway in the trenchcoat and fedora a couple of times).
3. Bronx (looking astonishingly anthropomorphic there) chewing on a fire hydrant.
All in all, I really enjoyed the DVD, and am looking forward to the Season Two ones.
Ahhh, memories...
THE GREEN
I mentioned back in MARK OF THE PANTHER that I feard that episode would be focused on the illegal poaching angle, and become less of a story, more of a "public service announcement" of sorts. I said back then that, in my experience, when a show is focused on (or does an episode focused on) certain issues (especially environmental ones for some reason) it seems to sacrifice plot, character, and even believability to force its moral across.
Thankfully, that does not happen in this episode, or in any episode of GARGOYLES that I can think of.
Granted there are *some* lines that come close to being preachy. I find myself laughing at the "Forget me, save the trees!" line. And Zaphiro's "There is no such thing as a few trees," while admittidly cool and well-delivered, initially struck me as so absolutist and dogmatic.
Now, in that last case, I would have felt better if the conversation between Zaphiro and Elisa continued after that (maybe with Zaphiro pointing out that rainforest soil is absolutely worthless for farming). This is another one of those times I really wish GARGOYLES had hour-long episodes.
Actually, I really do like that scene between Elisa and Zaphiro because Elisa plays devil's advocate--she actually tries to see things from the side of the "forest defilers." Going back to what I said about other "environmentally-minded" shows and episodes, things have a tendency to be drawn completely in black and white--anyone who chops down a tree is evil to the core, basically. Broad strokes and caricatures.
Let's look at "Captain Planet and the Planeteers," for example. From what I remember, they had a cadre of "Eco-villains" who largely seemed to be destroying the environment because they enjoyed doing so. And it was specifically the environment that they enjoyed destroying. In some cases, they had a motivation (oftimes greed, though one character needed radiation to survive), but mostly they seemed to do it because they enjoyed polluting. If a normal person was doing "bad things" it was because they were under the influence of one of the big bad-guys, and by the end said normal people saw the error of their ways and turned around. Thus, it doesn't seem terribly realistic to me.
Contrast this with MONONOKE HIME ("Princess Mononoke"), one of my favorite animated movies. The "forest defiler," Lady Eboshi, while she can be quite ruthless and capitalistic, has a heart. She frees women from prostitution and takes care of lepers. She has depth, and this makes her more realistic and identifiable. Thus I was able to take this movie seriously, and more fully appreciate humanity's impact on the natural world.
And thankfully, THE GREEN is much closer to MONONOKE HIME than "Captain Planet." Much of this comes from Elisa. In addition to the scene I already mentioned, I LOVE the scene between her and Goliath at the pyramid when he leaves to protect The Green. She argues from the human point of view, in essence still playing devil's advocate, but she can fully sympathize with the gargoyles. And while Goliath can understand Elisa's point of view, he can see little other choice for the gargoyles trying to save The Green than the guerilla attacks. Even the Mayan clan seems to understand (Turquesa is a bit snappish about the "misguided laws," but Jade seems downright cheerful towards Elisa).
And as for the "villains" themselves, Jackal and Hyena are the only real ones, and their primary interest is the money. They don't show any specific enjoyment out of destroying the rainforest (even Jackal's destruction of trees stems from his trying to keep the gargoyles from doing anymore damage and--heck--he just likes destroying stuff, period). Vogel, and through him Cyberbiotics, are the "big bad" employing Jackal and Hyena, but again it's about the money and not a gleeful hatred for the environment (Environmental Ethics for Businesses: "Care about the environment unless it costs you money."). Even the workers are just doing their jobs (and they're probably as unnerved by Jackal and Hyena as they are the gargoyles). The destruction of the rainforest is, as is often the case in real life, the direct side effect of pursuing other goals (as opposed to the ultimate goal of some malefactor).
Okay, NOW we can get down to smaller details.
I LOVED seeing the new gargoyles. Zaphiro's design was excellent! And Hector Elizondo's voice-work was wonderful. The whole cast did a great job, in fact (and was the Jesse Corti playing Jade the same fellow who played Le Fou in BEAUTY AND THE BEAST?).
The "flesh by day and night" thing was nice--we don't often get to see the gargs in sun-lit environments.
And it was great seeing Jackal and Hyena again, and they actually managaed to be more unnerving than ever. There are the scenes you and Erin mentioned (a headless Hyena is pretty intimidating), but the whole "retract eye/ear" thing creeps me out, too. Those long cords are rewinding into their SKULLS!! And the sound Hyena's earpiece makes when it goes back in her ear...[shudder].
Admittidly, Jackal did have a nice plan, and if it weren't for the amulet being in New York it might have worked. I find it strange that Hyena seems to think being in NY again is a good "omen." Then again, she likes fighting the gargs, so....
I was pleased to no end to see Broadway and Lexington show up again. And their fight with Hyena was well staged (though the destruction of the various exhibits sets my teeth on edge, as well). You brought up Broadway's clan mentality towards maternity (the plural "mothers"), but what I find interesting is Hyena's use of the singular ("mamma"), which almost seems to indicate that she already in her mind sees these guys as brothers.
RE: the head injury. Yeah, that's another one of those things Toon Disney cuts out. Hyena's holding her head in pain was actually a nice touch, though.
I like the look on Jackal's face when Vogel points out the little "contractual oddity." I almost wonder if Vogel enjoyed needling Jackal on some level.
Actually, I must say I was surprised to see Vogel here. I mean, if any corporation was supposed to be "behind it all" shouldn't it be Xanatos Enterprises--the "bad guy's" company? Instead, it's the company headed by a good man, but run (while said good man is ill) by a rather unemotional businessman. It actually helped with the message and increased the depth of both Vogel and Renard. You get the sense that while Vogel may not like Jackal and Hyena (or their actions) he puts it aside in favor of results.
Still, his deciding to pull Cyberbiotics out of the rainforest entirely seemed a bit too pat. Despite that, though, it's pretty well handled.
I would have loved getting a chance to listen to Broadway and Lex's rationale for ultimately not destroying the amulet. I kind of figured they wouldn't, and having seen Obsidiana lose her pendant and Bronx find it I kind of figured out what the ruse would be.
Dang, but Morgan's casual with Hyena the killer cyborg. Unconcious or not, I'd wait until I was packing a nuclear weapon before I got near her.
Jackal doesn't kill Elisa. He tasers her unconcious, but doesn't kill her right off. Why? I just find myself wondering if he didn't have even WORSE things planned for her.
Elisa comes up with a sort of back-up solution that I had been wondering about for quite some time before this episode aired. It always struck me as being advisable to collect "genetic samples" of endangered plant and animal life "just in case." So I rather liked Elisa's contribution here.
A couple final thoughts: I liked that the gargs never referred to the rainforest as such. It was always "the forest" or, even better, "The Green." I love their using a title for this land they hold in reverence.
Also, the "Oxygen" line you mentioned. It is a valid point (one that I keep forgetting, I'll admit), but, yeah, it may have been a bit difficult to pull off without feeling preachy or forced (I could only see Elisa saying this line since the Mayan clan strike me as mostly knowing their own turf--they know the forest is important, but they may not know how globally necessary it is).
It's a good episode, and a well done "special message" ep. And hey, more gargoyles (and cool looking ones at that)!
It's always a fine line, but we do try to avoid being preachy.
And yes, Jesse Corti is Jade and Le Fou.
In materials I've read since, I'm no longer certain that the rain forests are the lungs of the world. That's been called into question... to some extent by the DESTRUCTION of the rain forest. If so much is gone, why haven't oxygen levels dipped -- or something like that.
This is regarding the Gargoyles first season DVD set--
Hurrah! I love this series and hope very much that the remaining seasons will be put on DVD as well. This is my favorite Christmas present for 2004!
And Merry Christmas to you too!
I got Gargoyles for Christmas!!! I was/am so happy, especially since I've been reading everyone else rave about the DVD during the past 2-3 weeks. I started screaming with joy when I opened the box and found Gargoyles inside. I think I was even more excited than my little sisters were about any of their presents. (They're usually the ones shrieking for joy). All of I got to say is that it looks awesome. I watched all five parts of Awakening yesterday morning and Trill of the Hunt this morning and it looked and sounded awesome. The funniest part is that my eight year old sister kept going "that wasn't in the movie" when we were watching Awakening, since we have the Gargoyles: The Heroes Awaken movie and she's seen it a million times.
Anyway, I just had to share my joy! Now, we just need season 2! <My sisters keep asking me if we have "the episode where that guy picks Elisa up on the motorbike" <for example, she's referring to the end of Hunter's Moon Part 2> and keep having to tell them that no that episode is from season 2.> Now they're convinced that all the good episodes are from the second season. <sigh> It's funny though too...
Merry Christmas!!
Rambling on Demona
Hello,
I just finish watching awakening part one to five, from the DVD, witch I love by the way, and it reminded me of the first time I saw Demona. She is my all-time favourite TV Character. I actually feel sorry for her. The talk between her and Goliath at the end when she revels for the first time that she made a plan with the Captain of the guards moved me. I love the way she is written. She sounds alone and I feel and hear her pain.
See I'm a 22 year old gay guy, so when I first saw this I was 12. I didn't really know that I was gay but I knew their was something different about me. Seeing that scene helped me in a weird way. Hearing Demona's pain and loneliness about what the humans "did" to her kind sort of mad me feel like I wasn't alone. Demona's way of blaming others for her mistakes is something that most people do in one way or an other. I can truly say that I felt like she did allot of the time( I didn't want to kill all straight guys) but I felt like they didn't except me and that I couldn't trust anyone. Demona's actions were also mostly responsible for her pain, as the sisters pointed out in COS part 4, just like my fear of being different mad me feel alone.
Later in life I realized that people fear what they don't understand. The whole show is about creatures being different and misunderstood by "normal" people. It help me better understand the other's way of looking at things, that to them I was like a monster( not really a monster but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.) As the show when on, it helped me realize that different wasn't always a bad thing. The Goliath and Elisa relationship gave me hope that maybe someone could love me for who I was and except my differences.
I understand Demona's pain, Marina Sirtis is so amazing in this role. Demona is written so fantastic and realistically that its like she was a voice for me( in a good way, again not the killing part) like she mirrored what I felt. Now I'm fully comfortable with my self and in a way I have Gargoyles to thanks for that. I herd in the commentaries that ( I'm typing from memory, so please forgive me if I'm misquoting you) you indented the show, among other thing, to have or be a voice for the little people. I just wanted to say that at least for me it help me a lot when I was younger. I felt like the were other people in the world that were different. Thank you for that.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I been wanting to thank you for a long time. I truly hope that Disney bring this show back, because people like me need more shows like this, with real characters that are normal.
SDOHT,
Your post here is very gratifying. I am quite proud of our series and of how evocative and strong and complex a character Demona is in particular, but hearing that it helped you and taught you something truly makes my day. Thanks for sharing this ramble with me.
Some thoughts on our favorite characters and love.
So far in the "Gargoyles" Universe, the characters that all in real true love all have a deep understanding for one another. David and Fox understand each other better than anyone else on the planet does, and David acknowledges her as his equal. Maybe both of them didn't understand themselves well enough to think they were not that capable of such emotions, but they knew each other.
Goliath and Elisa are similar, it was clear even early on that they had something there, they grew to trust each other with their lives. There was always respect, and they understand one another, even when they disagree.
Likewise with Broadway and Angela, he saw her for who she was, unlike Brooklyn. All these characters seem to in a way share the same soul.
Now in regards to Demona, she's failed in love twice because that deep, emotional, soul sharing understanding faded as in the case with Goliath, but even before then she went behind his back, tried to push him to seize leadership of the clan, which he would not do, and could never understand why he put up with the humans. Not that she didn't understand him, in some cases she knew him only too well, since she saw the sparks between Goliath and Elisa long before they realized they were there. As far as Thailog goes, she thought that he was the Goliath she always wanted, and turned out to be flat out wrong, since he just planned to use her (in more ways than one) and finally discard her when he was done.
You've said in the past that Demona will have two more great loves, what will be interesting to see is by standards set by other characters where there is a similar "sharing of the soul" as it were. This deep, emotional understanding and knowing of one another. Problem is, it would be very hard for anyone to truly know her without having experienced similar tragedies. Everyone has their tragedies, but how many people have been alive for centuries, being hunted, bearing strong grudges and longer hatreds. Demona is her own worst enemy, and is likely to sabotage such things, and that's on the big assumption that she even opens herself up to anyone again.
One or both of those next great loves had better truly be someone special, if she's going to come out of her shell and really learn to care for someone intimately again.
Well... having nothing to do with my plans, I'm not sure I agree with your final premise. Whether a character -- any character -- truly loves somebody can in fact be independent of that somebody's worth.
Love can be selfless. Love can be unrequited. Love can be lavished on someone unworthy.
I'm not talking about my plans for Demona here. Just cautioning you not to get ahead of yourself in making predictions based on facts not in evidence.
But I do agree that true and lasting love works best when it's between individuals who understand and respect each other first.
Finally aquiring the Gargs dvd has gotten my mind spinning on the possibility of the story's return in any format, but specifically television, and what kind of audience and content it would aim for.
I am watching temptation right now, and the first part of it is fairly heavy material. Demona showing Brook domestic trouble, violence and her general talk of humanity's evil (which i have taken to heart, she's right you know) wouldn't get past S&P or any such triff nowadays. Censorhip seemed to get in the way back in 94 as well, there are examples i could site but that would take a long time. I'll just say mobsters aren't really known for using tear gas in high jacking, at least if the supranos is any indication. The only recent show i can think to compare to Gargs is X-men Evolution, and Justice League, one is cancled and the other I've never seen on Saturday morning but rather prime time weekends.
The point and question it raises are thus: Gargoyles was always more mature than any north american animation of it's time, and television content limitations for the age bracket Gargs was originally intended for have gotten more restrictive.
If it was your choice, what kind of maturity level in terms of target audience and content would you aim for?
My opinions:With disney no doubt s&p would be cutting out everything not soft and fuzzy if it was intended for the 6 to 12 set again (or whatever demographic it was, don't remember). The fan base, such as myself is 10 years older and hopefully has matured accordingly. I would think the show itself would work best as an action drama on the same level as say, Angel, 24 or even some anime like Inuyasha.
It's all speculative, but the dvd release gives one hope we'll see the Gargoyles animated again.
I wouldn't mind. But honestly, I'm much more focused on the comic book right now. The audience for that is ideally the same as the audience for the original show... i.e. EVERYONE -- but not dumbed down for anyone. That is, was and will continue to be my preference.
Hi, my best friend got me the DVD for Christmas. I was so happy, when I got home I played it writhe away and was not disappointed. I love the commentaries and the behind the scenes stuff. Thank to Disney for relising the best animanted series to us. I can't wait for the second season! Thanks Greg for creating the series and I hope u will do more commentaries and the second season. Demona is my favourite character. Goliath's voice is cool, I was surprise to see that he (I forgot the actor's named) has the same voice. It was so perfect for Goliath.
Keith David is a talented man.
Thanks for the early Christmas present in the form of the ramble on "The Green", Greg!
One thing that stands out to me now about this episode is that we get another look at the difference between Jackal and Hyena. Hyena just wants to charge in on the Mayan gargoyles and wipe them out. Jackal, rather than going for a simple all-out attack, comes up with an actual strategy, namely, having Hyena destroying the Mayan Sun Amulet so that he can then dispose of the clan while it's in stone sleep. Again showing that he's the more cunning one.
(I liked your method of having Jackal winding up attacking the gargoyles at night after that - when Vogel uses a bit of his own cunning and points out to Jackal that he won't get paid as much if the Mayan gargoyles do more damage to the Cyberbiotics operation - meaning that now Jackal doesn't have the option of just waiting for dawn after all, not if he wants a full paycheck!)
And I get a kick out of their response to Goliath showing up - "Must Goliath follow us everywhere?" "Hey, he's a fan!"
In some ways, Jackal's fantasy about altering Goliath's features is even more disturbing than his death-god phase in "Grief". Truly chilling.
The episode may be a bit on the preachy side (I know that many of the fans see it that way), but I think that it still has a good message. I particularly liked Elisa's uneasiness with the Mayan gargoyles' tactics and wanting to find a way of saving the rain forest that was within the law - and at the end, coming up with the solution of planting some of the rain forest plants on Avalon.
I find the "Quetzalcoatl" design for Zafiro interesting, in that it fits in with one additional aspect of gargoyles that revealed itself during the World Tour. Before the World Tour, we'd simply seen gargoyles in a "conventional gargoyle" form. However, when we were introduced to other gargoyles during Goliath's odyssey (and even the legacies of other gargoyles), we saw that they'd inspired other myths and legends besides just the familiar gargoyles of medieval Europe - unicorns and griffons in "M.I.A.", the "black dogs" of the British Isles in "The Hound of Ulster", and now Quetzalcoatl. (Not to mention that the Ishimura gargoyles of "Bushido" also have a certain evocation of tengu about them.) It gives an additional dimension to them that I think is neat.
I'd caught the significance of Broadway using "mothers" and how that fits into gargoyle parentage.
That was a nice touch about Broadway and Lexington considering the possibility of destroying the Sun Amulet - but, fortunately, not doing so after all.
Again, thanks for the ramble.
You're welcome. Thanks for yours too.
My DVD-Set arrived finally oversea.
I think it is just great and I'm very happy that I finally can retire my worn videotapes.
I hope that we get audio commentaries for the whole second season. There's just one fly in the soup: I'd really like to have a German version, because the German synchro is just as great as the English one and it would be a real pity if it never sees a DVD release.
Greetings,
Sabina
I've never heard it. (Not that I'd understand it if I did.)
My DVD review - originally posted at my blog (http://bleuunicorn.livejournal.com/56300.html)
I was fifteen when Gargoyles debuted on the Disney Afternoon and while ten years have gone by, I can honestly say my enjoyment and affection for the show have not waned. If anything, watching these remastered episodes exactly as they aired was an incredible treat for me. The first season was released years back on VHS and I own that entire set, but those old tapes pale in comparison to this set. A fact that not only was expected, but greatly satisfying.
Secretly, I was a bit skeptical when sitting down to watch the show again. Ten years is a long time - almost half my life! Deep down I was fearful that the decade of basic separation from the series had made my memories of it far grander than it was. My fears, however, were completely misguided. Here's a show that truly does withstand the test of time. And I really shouldn't be surprised, considering even when it first aired it was appealing to me and I wasn't part of that "target audience" - a fact which only drew me into the show more!
The series (in 75 words): The aptly named Goliath and his gargoyle clan are cast into a thousand year slumber, only to awake in New York City to learn they are now the last of their kind. While acclimating themselves to their new surroundings, they discover both allies and enemies alike. And soon renew their vow of protection that defines their species to include all of Manhattan and its inhabitants, both gargoyle and human.
Video: Here's where DVD transfer really can shine, but also where a cartoon can fall most miserably. Gargoyles, though looks absolutely stunning, the colors just look so beautiful. Not surprising with, considering the wonderful palette of colors used. I did notice some minor interlacing (mostly in "Long Way to Morning") and some dirt and dust in some scenes. But nothing overly bad. Definitely one of the best transfers of an animated television series I've seen.
Audio: The episodes on the set are all remastered and while for the most part the audio is superb and better than I remember listening to on my TV - Certainly an improvement over my ancient VHS copies - I did notice some odd fluctuation at times. At first, I thought it was my copy (or my hearing was going), but I've talked with other people and it's definitely not just me. It's pretty infrequent - I noticed it the most in the five-part "Awakening" pilot, but it was apparent in disc two as well.
Special features: I love special features, especially done well. I can't say I was jumping for joy over these, though. The commentary on "Awakening" was very interesting and entertaing, though I'm ashamed to say that anyone who isn't a big fan may find themselves kind of bored. (Of course, I'm usually bored by commentaries and as such rarely listen to them.) I always hate it when commentaries consist of long pauses of no talking, but you won't find that on this set! These guys - mostly Greg - have lots to say and they don't let little things like recaps and credits stop the flow of words.
The featurette on "The Gathering of the Gargoyles" convention was...okay. I didn't really find it all that interesting, but it was pretty neat to see. It's nice to know there's still a loyal fandom out there.
The original show pitch was pretty interesting to watch. It's the one thing on the set that shows how old this show really is. I'd already listened the commentary before watching this, though so it wasn't very informative or earth-shattering. Still, the original character designs were very intriguing - lots of changes were made from that pitch to what finally became. Stuff like that is just nifty.
Packaging & setup: Thankfully, Disney has never gone the route that Warner Bros. did with the horrid snapper cases. Instead, we get the standard double-disc case. Though, I can't find much love for the rather blah disc and cover art. And for a show with so much history...the only insert is just a chapter/episode listing - with equally blah art. The menus, though were really just...ugh. There's so much great artwork from this show that Disney could have used and didn't. And the animation? It was cool the first time, but afterwards I just found it annoying and distracting.
Frankly, considering how long fans have waited for this release, it's plainly obvious that there wasn't that much work put into the frills of the release.
Over-all: Scrutinizing this set is really hard for me. I'm finding myself quibbling over minor things that don't necessarily bother me because in all truth it really comes down to the content for me, which is just beyond amazing. Having the first season in remastered quality, uncut is like a dream come true. And I'm fervently hoping for a release of the second season to complete this collection!
Ultimately, extras, menus, etc. can be nice or whatever, but one would hope that the prize is, as you noted, the content. The actual episodes.
Hi, I just wanted to say that I love the Gargoyles DVD, the scenes are so vivid in color and detail!!! In the scene where the Trio are exploring David's kitchen, I noticed there was a part that was never shown on the Disney version. That of Brooklyn checking out the stove, was this left out because of commercial time, or cause they thought kids would go playing with stoves if they saw it?
Also, will they be releasing DVD's of the other seasons soon? I really want to see the Mirror episode on DVD - it's animation should be really awesome! - Thanks!
Episodes were cut for time by USA Network, and then for S&P content by ToonDisney. It is good to have them uncut again, huh?
Hey there! Just wanted to tell you that I loved the DVD of Gargoyles. So, when are they going to have the next one out? It better be soon. I think the best part of the DVD was the commentary given by yourself, co-producer, and goliath's voice. The only downfall to that was that it was only for the first five episodes. It would've been better if there had been more commentary on other episodes. When you guys do another DVD, there needs to be more commentary than just five episodes. It would also be cool to have other voice actors for the series to come in and help with that. I also liked the main screen when the gargoyles would be stone, then come to life, and then turn back to stone, over and over again. It was done very well. I'd like to thank all of you guys who helped make this DVD possible. I started watching Gargoyles when I was seven (when it first came out) and now I'm seventeen. I've been waiting 10 years for this. Good going. *tear drop*
Well, I'm sure you have a lot of these to read, so I'll leave you to your unfinished work for the time being and I'll stop rambling on and on.
Thanks for the ramble. Your questions and comments have already been addressed, so in the interest of keeping Ask Greg moving, I'm going to, well, keep Ask Greg moving.
I love the dvd! The quality is great, and the comentary alone makes it worth while. Greg, Frank, and Keith did an excellent job giving entertaining tid bits and information behind the scenes. I especially love how they gave some general comments about the series (warning to first timers, there are spoilers! At LEAST watch the Awakening eps before watching the commentary, or it will spoil a very nice, complex plot). I wish there had been more on the Gathering of the Gargoyles. But seeing just enough of it really makes me want to drop everything and go to one! Also, the showing of Greg's pitch of the show was cool---loved the drawings! I can't wait for season 2 to come out...any idea when that could happen? Thanks all!
Season Two, Volume One is already out. Volume Two is not scheduled. SPREAD THE WORD!
My DVD review, copied and pasted from the Gargoyles X message board.
I FINALLY got to see it last night, both the episodes and the features, and I thought I'd drop in my two cents.
THE PICTURE - It was very crisp, and well animated. I actually found it to be darker and more developed then the reruns on TV, which also made it a little scarier. The darkness factor in the episodes made the animation very well polished, considering that these episodes are over 10 years old and that alone was enough to make me drooling like a rabid Cujo on PCP. LOL.
THE SOUND - It was very wicked, listening to Bronx's growling or the stone cracking and etc. on Dolby Digital. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and look forward to my next viewing (or hearing, in this category.) with great relish.
THE VOICE ACTING - Anyone who's heard the actors on TV (and who hasn't?) can expect the same stuff here, only better, given that it's on, like I said, Dolby.
THE FEATURES - The Commentary was fun, cool, and informative, all rolled up into one. Keith David and Greg Weisman, in particular, talking through "Awakening" alone was enough to please the fanboy part of my otherwise dark and brooding soul. The Gathering featurette was also a pleasent little ditty, with interviews, episode footage, and more. I personally would've liked more input from the other VAs, however, though Keith David did have some camera time, which semi-made up for it. Seeing the activities at the G2003 was bitching and I am looking forward to this summer's Vegas offing even more.
All in all, I was proud to have purchased this DVD, it was worth the cash it took out of my debit card, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Season 2. Come on Disney! Bring it on! Show me the season 2 goods!
Yeah, that's all I've got to say.
Looking forward to possibly meeting you in Vegas, Greg!
Unfortunately, Keith and I were the only guests at G2004, so that's all you could have Voice Actor-wise in the Gathering featurette. But hopefully, you enjoyed the Season Two Volume One DVD which included interviews with Jeff Bennett, Bill Faggerbakke, Edward Asner, Thom Adcox, Brigitte Bako, myself, Frank Paur and Michael Reaves.
As you ask, so shall you receive. Although, not so much a review, as a reaction.
Amazon.com did a great job with delivery this close to Christmas - they predicted the 17th at the very earliest. I *had* planned on sleeping in this morning, but having the DVD in my hands meant getting dressed as quickly as possible and sitting in front of the TV.
The Gathering documentary was awesome! I loved that I could sit there and go "I know her/him!" Not to mention "Look - there's me!" ^_^
The episodes themselves .. well, I was a whole mass of 'squee!' I have missed watching Gargoyles *so much*, the DVD is a dream come true. The opening theme gave me goosebumps and Goliath's heart-broken "My Angel of the Night" ... brr.
I did notice how clean the animation and sound were, they've certainly done a wonderful job.
So, now many of us begging on our knees would it take for Disney to release Season 2? :D
Fewer knees. More dollars, I'm afraid.
This is more of a comment than a question, and considering Greg is still a couple of years behind, chances are that my post won't get reviewed until some time much much later (ah, this is where a Phoenix Gate comes in handy). Anyway, so it feels like writing something for a time capsule, but anyway...
I just want to rave about the DVD! I purchased mine at Amazon and it arrived 2 days later when the DVD came out. Anyway, what an awesome purchase.....all the episodes in the first season in the palm of my hands and hoping by the time this is read that Season Two DVD would've come out...wait, better yet, one of those Gargoyles sequels to already be airing on Cartoon Network or out on yet another DVD! Anyway, thanks for this and keep up the good work! Thanks for keeping our imaginations alive!
Thank you for buying it.
My DVD review:
Well, I liked it, of course!
I mean, it's great having this level of clarity in both visual and audio. And of course, the commentary track is great. But, as someone else pointed out, there is just SO MUCH you guys are trying to say, and so little time for you guys to say it in. One of you is expounding on one particular subject, while another has to chime in about what's happening on screen (as with your little "Nice mask" moment, Greg). I really wish the folks at Disney Home Video had given you guys a commentary for all thirteen episodes.
The Gathering featurette: Great, now I have another reason to feel bummed about not being able to go (oh, the trials of being a non-union actor trying to catch a break in LA). Since things have been picking up a little for me, though, I might be able to come to the Gathering in Vegas.
The Original video pitch: Words cannot express how glad I am to see this on here. The original concepts for Hudson and Bronx, Elisa's former last name, the pic of Goliath on the subway car, and the last picture of the kid in Goliath's shadow...I remembered those from the Gathering 2001, and I always wanted to have my own copy. Now I do!
And, of course, the presentation itself. They did a great job with the box art and the menus. The transfer from day to night and back again is well done and timed to make a perfect loop with Carl Johnson's score.
Pass on my kudos to the folks at Disney Home Video for their work here. I'd track them down and thank them myself if they'd given us the other eight episodes worth of commentary.
Yeah, I'd have loved to do commentary on all thirteen. Had a list of commenters all planned out for each episode, too. Oh, well.
I have, and love, the Gargoyles Season 1. I got it the day it came out! (Actually, 3 days before it came out, I snuck it out of the store where I work and paid for it on release day.) It's just glorious. The care was put into this that made the show so great in the first place. I love the commentary, I only wish there were 5 times more. This site provides the best commentary of all, but to have Greg's rants right over the scenes grounds the observations very well. I've been watching these with my wife and it's like torture. Even the smallest things have a deeper meaning and greater significance (see that boy Tom, he's not just a throwaway character, he'll be back later; that's not the last we'll see of Hakon; you'll never believe what becomes of Jackal; and Owen...my Lord!) and I want to connect all the dots, but it would be cruel to blow the surprise. What would be even crueler is if we never got a chance to share the surprises, so I'll get down on my knees now and beg Disney to put together Season 2. And don't worry, my money will be where my mouth is. Such beautiful storytelling shouldn't be buried in a vault. Such wonderful wisdom should be allowed to touch people. I had a woman today in the book store where I work ask for a copy of the Jeffrey Robbins quotation on books I have posted: "The written word is all that stands between memory and oblivion. Without books as our anchors, we are cast adrift, neither teaching nor learning. They are windows on the past, mirrors on the present, and prisms reflecting all possible futures. Books are lighthouses erected in the dark sea of time."
Beautiful.
Thanks
It's cool you posted that. I can't remember if it was Lydia or Brynne who came up with that (or both). It's pretty keen, huh?
My DVD Review
First let me tell you of my "fun" search for the DVD. I had pre-ordered it through my local Blockbuster 2 weeks ahead of release date. All seemed well enough. I went there December 7th and they couldn't find my order, my form, nothing. And they weren't even selling it on the shelf. I'd have to wait for another 2 weeks to get it. So I rushed over to my Wal-Mart. They didn't have it either. It was 2 days later before I got a chance to go to Daytona. Circuit City didn't have it. But Best Buy did. One last copy. Then 2 days later, Wal-Mart in my town got about 20 copies. Frustration!
Anyways, onto the review...
I had seen the coverart online and loved it from the moment I saw it. I was suprised Disney didn't print their name on the front cover though. I liked how the gold banners pointed out it's anniversary and it was 2-discs. Which is often an eye catcher. And the cover itself is beautifu;. The purple-gray Goliath was great. Unlike the VHS Heroes Awaken cover, this DVD cover did not soften the look of the show. The VHS cover could have been decieving to some who figured it for a light-hearted children's show. This cover respected the show. The back cover too was nice. I was expecting screenshots of the show, but it was respectful in a way. And it listed the bonus features, critic acclaim, and a little summary. Very nice.
I liked the insert, using the old pictures from The Hunted and Force of Goliath VHS. And it fit well with the cover art. The DVD discs themselves were all nice. And nice to have the episodes listed straight on the discs.
Pop in the DVDs, skip the previews, and go right to some great menus. Again, respectful of the series. They looked great. And the sound was perfect too. I was shocked frankly at the menus. Most menus don't jump out at me, I really don't care to look at them. But these were perfect and eye catching. I also like the moments when you choose and you get a little bit of different characters. The video itself for each episode was crisp and beautiful. Better then I ever saw on TV even. The sound was great as well. It was wonderful to have each episode uncut. Disney had originally cut the egg scenes out of the Heroes Awaken VHS, because they never planned to release season 2. Seeing the egg scenes again, gives me hope that they will. Even for those who never saw the series before have to wonder about the eggs. Even though Xanatos said they were gone. He lied a lot afterall, so it's only natural to think he lied about the eggs. It just gives me a lot of hope since they included stuff that would come out later in the series, perhaps they may just bring season 2 out.
I LOVED the Gathering feature. That was so well done. The interviews intercut with the show were excellent. And again, respectful of the series. They taped a lot of stuff. They included so much. It was great! I wasn't expecting them to go that far with it.
Greg's pitch was also fun. Nice to see the history some more. And be refreshed on stuff I had forgotten. I also never saw some of that concept art. Very interesting and neat!
Commentary was great! Most of the stuff I knew, but it was nice to hear them talk about it again.
All in all, one of the best, if not THE best DVDs I ever have owned. I plan to buy more copies for Christmas gifts and to donate to local organizations. :)
Thanks, Siren. I'm glad you liked it and that you went to so much trouble to get it. It is frustrating how hard it can be to find the disks.
Glad to see that we can post again . . . I got the DVD on Tuesday Premire!!!!
I was so happy!
Went over to Best Buy to buy it. Turns out, my little brother, 10 years old, today, was the won to find it. They were in a box somewhere in the 'TV Shows on DVD' aisle.
We politely asked a worker there to properly display the boxed set in all it's glory. Unfortunatley, I don't know if they ever did. :I
I read the back cover for the first time. It said it all, surprisingly. "The victems of Human betrayal" Humans? Betraying Gargoyles? To the unwise ear, that sounds ridiculous, and that those who read it must surely see how could perfect humans do evil to 'monsters.'
Hey, that's just who I am.
I saw the commentary in the Pilot episodes. (Isn't cool that "Gargoyles" has more than one pilot episode?) I loved how you (as in Greg, Frank, and Keith) mentioned every little thin we loved about the show, and the quirks that cam ealong with it. "Bronx kicks A**, or tail, as the case is!"
Loved it.
I also never truly realized the TRUE signifigance of Goliath asking to join the others in stone sleep. I never knew that he meant to commit suicide, but now that makes it all the more meaningful. It also reminds me of the Demona's anguish when she sees Goliath that way in City of Stone Part I, where she cries and kisses Goliath, not even trying to find a way to wake him.
Sad indeed.
I also loved the dog joke. Once an actor, now on the streets . . . cliche', huh?
I am glad that Carl Johnson also got the recongition he deserves. I mean, hard not to, right? Everytime the comentary began, you gave praise to the man who came up with that "BUMMMMM!! BUMMMMM!! BA BU BU BUM BUMMM BA BA BUMMM!! Epic indeed.
But it was truly a rewarding thing to see the show on DVD at last.
"I always survive" -- Demona, "Temptation" That is how this fandom is. No matter how hard we hit the ground, we always come back alive!
AND WE LIVE AGAIN!!!!!
Onward to Season II !!!!!!
We do indeed live again!
And thanks for mentioning Carl and his amazing score!
DVD Review
My first reaction to the little box from amazon.com arriving was a childish giddiness of having some great prize finally in my grabby little hands. My first disappointment was opening the container up and seeing that the first disk had come loose either in shipping or sometime prior and had been rattling around inside. On closer inspection of the case itself, I'm a bit disappointed in the construction of it, as it is very easy for the discs to slide loose and get damaged. Luckily for me, there wasn't any trouble with it, even if the first disc did get a few scratches.
The gathering footage was a great addition, and really interesting for someone like myself who has never gone. Of course, I went through the special features first, and then went back and re-watched the entire show. It probably would have been better to have some chapter breaks within the episodes, as I had to fast forward through the intro each time. I did encounter a technical glitch of some sort while playing the DVD on my laptop. There was quite a bit of jumpiness to the opening of the DVD, but a good cleaning of it seemed to fix it fine. Perhaps a balance issue?
Away from the more technical aspects, Gargoyles was very close to what I remembered of it. Seeing it again was very much like seeing it for the first time. With the DVD quality and my laptop, I was able to see a lot more details, especially differences between various animation companies that did different episodes. The sound was amazing, and I was able to pick up on a lot of little sounds that I missed as a child.
Overall, I'm very happy with the DVD, although not so happy with the quality of the discs or their packaging.
Sorry about the technical problems. I haven't had any of those problems with my copy, but...
The sound work is great, isn't it? We used a number of different animation studios on the series, with differing levels of quality, but we always used Advantage Audio on the sound, and the folks there -- particularly Music Editor Marc Perlman, Sound Effects Editor Paca Thomas and mixers Bill, Jim, Melissa and Ray -- all did amazing work, which I'm glad the DVD brings out.
Gargoyles DVD Review
Hi there Greg,
I read that you wanted DVD reviews for the new Gargoyles DVD… So here goes…
I have been waiting a very long time for Gargoyles to be released on DVD. I am very excited and hope that this DVD will sell well. I wish Disney would of advertised this DVD more though… Maybe some TV commercials? I have met people who love Gargoyles, but don't keep up with the Gargoyles news on the internet, and they would of have had no idea it is on DVD now without me telling them.
This DVD is awesome though, thank you Disney for releasing it. The quality is great, and I love the digital surround sound. I never heard Gargoyles sound so well. And it's great to have some bonus features. I really like the audio commentary Greg. And the DVD is nicely made… I really like the animated menu, and when you go to certain things on the DVD how it shows the Gargoyles doing something cool, like growling, hissing, etc. All the episodes are unedited… What more could a fan ask for? I even got my friend to buy a copy, and he has never seen even one episode before! I told him about this show, why I loved it so much and what made it so great to me. I knew he would like it. And after watching the DVD, he loves the show. He asked me if I wanted to go to the Gathering with him, and I am so excited! I have been wanting to go to a Gargoyle Gathering for years, but no one ever wanted to go with me. There are so many fans out there that haven't been able to go to a Gathering. I have been spreading the word for the DVD… I at least got one friend to buy a copy who never saw the show before then, and I turned him into a fan. I hope Disney releases the second season on DVD, I really think the second season only gets better. Greg, I know you have heard this a thousand times, but there has never been another show like this to me… And I really do miss it. I miss seeing new episodes, new stories, to continue this wonderful series.
I am a 19 year old girl, I have been a fan since 1995 or 1996 I believe. (No unfortunately I didn't become a fan right at the beginning) This has been my favorite show since then, and I really don't think any show will replace it, ever. My friend that bought a DVD really wants to see the second season now… I hope that the second season will be released on DVD! Greg… You don't know me, I only posted a few times at "Ask Greg" over the years, but this upcoming summer you will probably get at least two more people coming to the Gathering. (My friend and I) What more can I say, this DVD is awesome and I am so happy it is finally here. I look forward to season two on DVD, and hopefully more! You have a great show here Disney, don't stop now!
So Audra, did you make it to the Gathering?
Greg asked to post DVD reviews here, so that's what this is --
I've never posted to Ask Greg before (any questions I might have had about the series were very much answered, and I couldn't think of any more), but I've been reading it consistently for maybe 2 years now!
I watched all the extra features. I spread out the 5 commentaries over 5 nights so that I could make it last. Sigh, now it's over.
I wish there were more commentaries. They get so addictive, and I didn't want them to end. They were VERY very good commentaries. Non stop talking, obviously you (Greg) has a LOT to say about the show (obviously), and there were no long dead spots like in so many other commentaries I own. It was inspiring for you to sound so excited talking about the show, none of the spark has gone down at all. It was also just very funny to hear Keith David on the commentaries. It wasn't interesting or informative, just kind of funny.
The pitch to Disney is an incredible thing to have on the DVD, and way more than I was expecting. It was adorable to hear you describing the show and the characters. I don't mean adorable in a bad way, it was just really sweet, like someone telling a children's story at bedtime or something. Except with more explosions and stuff.
The feature about The Gathering was fun and interesting, though I felt weird watching it. Maybe cause I'm not ULTRA-Obsessed with the show (just normal obsessed) enough to wear costumes and stuff (I wanted to go to the Gathering in NYC but did not have the money). It was nice to see. I would have preferred to see more stuff with you/Greg at the Gathering and I was also hoping to catch some of those inside things that are Gathering-only, oh well. BUT all in all it was a good way to let people (and Disney!) know how much the show means to a lot of people.
I'm so glad to have all these episodes on DVD. And I WANT MORE!!! MOOOORE!!! Season 2 will be like a million discs but I WANT IT! And more commentaries!
Jordan Cooper
Hope you found Season Two, Volume One, Jordan.
My DVD Review.
I've already posted several thoughts I had on the DVD so I'll be brief here. Decent transfer. Picture not perfect but it looks good enough even blown up on my 103" screen so that's good news. Sounds much, much better than my copy-of-a-copy-from-cable VHS versions, another plus. Commentary was cool but it sounded like you still had stuff left to say even after five episodes.. so why not extend it out to cover the whole series, maybe even bring in some other people on the creative team or some other voice talent on different episodes and have them guest comment like Keith did. A lot of commentary tracks on movies or TV series run out of steam after the first 45 minutes or so and then listening to the rest becomes repetitive and boring but it sounded like you could have kept going so why stop? Extras were alright, I already mentioned the bad flashbacks the Gathering footage gave me, the original show pitch was interesting to see, wish that there was more stuff like that but I realize there may not be more stuff like that. If Disney gets you more involved on the next DVD maybe you can put in some more extras like the Bad Guys thing that you did at the Gathering or whatever else you can come up with to help expand and flesh out either the genesis of the show or the unrealized portion of your Master Plan. Chapter breaks would have been really nice. More extras would have been nice. Better packaging would be nice. "SEASON 2 COMING SOON!" in big bold letters on the back of the box would have been nice. But ultimately I'm just happy that it is out and I own a copy... Season 3 was terrible, season 2 had some great shows but was at times hit-and-miss and the world tour was boring.... but season 1 is solid gold and I loved every minute of this DVD.
I would have loved to have done more commentaries and brought in more of the cast and crew to do it. But BVHE only budgeted (originally) for two episodes worth of commentary. (And that's just the production cost -- all of commenTATORS were commenTATING for free.) I convinced them to do five episodes worth to cover the entire pilot, but I could not convince them to do even one more ep, let alone all thirteen.
what is with people that like Buffy so much? Is the show really that great if you watch it all the way through? Every individual episode that I've seen has been, on its own, just plain terrible. Cheesiness abounds, bad jokes, very poorly coregraphed action sequences with a very unconvincing lead- both in action sequences and regular acting but especially in action sequences, vampires that aren't scary or cool or intimidating or in any way interesting who die in seconds to some waifish looking little high school brat (c'mon guys... Paul "Pee Wee Herman" Reubens in the original more-appropriately-titled-because-it-was-a-comedy movie was more threatening than some of these throw-aways), corny special effects, oh, and John Ritter as an evil robot. What is there to like here, seriously? You're obviously a huge fan, Greg, as your geekily obsessive Buffy character lists prove. Maybe you can shed some light.
To Buffy's credit, I haven't seen any episodes that were as bad as some from The Goliath Chronicles (A Bronx Tale, the one with the cloned clan and little Anton- stupid idea to begin with made worse in the hands of and inept creative team, the EGON PAX!!! episode, et cetera)... and a few of the Buffy episodes I've seen, though not many, have been better than some of the bad episodes of Gargoyles season 2 (most of the later Dracon episodes (Turf, Protection/Jalapena!), anything with Anton Sevarius in it (Monsters, Metamorphosis), and the weaker eps on the world tour (Easter Island, New Olympians, some of the ones already mentioned) If you're still not familiar at all with the Goliath Chronicles as I know you've previously claimed in Ask Greg you out to at least check out A Bronx Tale and the Egon Pax one... I forget what that episode was called... it had the Illuminati in it. They are just really, really, really hilariously bad. Mind-bogglingly bad. Funny, funny stuff... but sad at the same time. If it makes you laugh and cry that's supposed to be a good thing though, right?
I've said many times that I've seen every Goliath Chronicles episode (with the exception of "The Journey," which I've seen many times) exactly once. Those last twelve didn't make me laugh or cry. Just cringe.
As for the Garg Season Two episodes you don't like... well, we just disagree. They're not all perfect, of course. But I like them all.
But as for Buffy -- Dude, I don't know what to tell you. The series kicks ass. Everything that you criticize, is actually brilliant. The acting, the concept, the themes, the effects (most of them anyway), the vampires (most of them anyway), the fight choreography, etc. ROCKS! Is it all perfect? No, but what is?
Watching all the Buffy and Angel episodes on DVD has been great. The arcs are amazing, generally. And as for individual episodes, it could be argued -- particularly in later seasons -- that they hold up even better in a vaccuum, than they do as part of the arc.
But look, you don't have to agree. I mean, obviously, you don't agree. People have different tastes. But personally, Joss' TV work on Buffy, Angel and Firefly is, I think, some of the best in the business. And I like to think I have fairly high standards.
My DVD review.
The powers that be did a terrific job with this DVD. All thirteen episodes of the first season of "Gargoyles" uncut, unedited. Great picture and audio, nice transfer, the menus are great. They didn't let me down.
The episodes all look gorgeous, and after almost ten years of VHS tapes recorded off the TV, it makes a real difference. I'm even hearing sound effects and bits of music I never heard before, it's just wonderful.
The audio commentary on all five parts of Awakening by Greg Weisman, Frank Paur and Keith David was fun to listen to, they're all great guys... and I know as I've met and spoken to all three of them, and Greg I speak to a lot.
But first a little response directed at Greg... Was going through the fifth part of the "Awakening" commentary and when we get to the reveal of Demona's name, you go on about how you're not sure if it played well or not, if it was impressive enough for such a reveal.
Just thought you'd like a little feedback on that. I was thirteen when that episode first premered, and that scene made quite an impact on me, it was about then that she became my favorite character (up till just before Demona starts shooting at Goliath and playing out their 'little drama' Xanatos was the front runner, but as you know I love him too) but damn the reveal was dramatic, red smoke, her silhouette and she steps through it with her eyes flashing red holding the bazooka, and the character animation on her and the way Marina acted, and I knew her name was basically (demon) and that it was both well... demonic and beautiful, deadly and elegant all at the same time. I thought it was perfect.
So yeah, as far as this fan goes, the scene worked wonderfully.
The Gathering extra turned out very well also. It's 15 minutes, but it's well covered. I'm surprised at how much of me they use. And it's official, all these years of being a Demona fan boy, and now it's officially documented and I even appear on screen with her (split screen of me and her), just a little thing but it means something to me. Aaron and Mara are the other two Demona groupies in that part of the documentary. But lots of great stuff, lot of Greg W and Keith David. Sapphire appears just about every other shot (and I'm suddenly picturing the director of this documentary with a big blown up poster of her on his bedroom wall ;)). Everyone looked great, the bit where Aaron and Xanatos say the "Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into Hell" line in sinc was just awesome.
My only complaint was that they didn't show Aaron's Demona tattoo, and that the Gathering website's URL was not flashed on the screen. Aw well.
Overall, I give it a 9.9 out of 10. Would have gotten a gull 10 but no tattoo and no Gathering URL... still, the set is terrific, and overall exceeded my expectations.
Both your complaints are mine as well. There's also one edit of MY interview that makes it sound like I'm taking credit for the entire show, when in fact, without the edit, my point was to give credit to the rest of my development team. And as much as I loved Montreal, the featurette gives the impression that the Gathering is held there every year. I know there was footage that indicated that we are a roving con, but none of that made the cut.
And still, I think it turned out well.
And I'm glad the Demona beat worked for you too.
Here's my DVD review:
First, the Power Rangers commercial made me laugh. Someone brought up how it was like the murderer speaking at the victim's funeral.
The animated menus were GORGEOUS!!! Absoulutely beautiful.
The clarity of the pictures were awesome. Ditto for the audio.
The commentaries, doc, and pitch were enlightening to me. It's a pity that they didn't make the Gathering featurete longer.
Anyway, that's my review. Short and sweet.
Thank you, Mr. Weisman, for creating such a good series.
You're welcome. I'm very glad you liked the DVD. I liked the current length of the Gathering featurette. Like you said, "short and sweet". There were a couple of things they cut that I wish they had kept in, but I've watched ALL the footage they shot that weekend, and I think they got most of the best stuff.
I am so sorry the last post was meant to read "Thank you for helping to stop them from driving the clan apart in the final episode" not for "not helping".
Once again thank you for an amazing series, forgive me for the mistake in the previous post.
Yeah, I got the gist of it. Thanks.
More a comment than a question. I am new to this forum but have been a fan of the show for a long time now. I just read the posts about the third season and am relieved to see that it was not under the same direction as the first two seasons which explains the extremely different feel to those eps as apposed to the first two seasons. I am sorry that the series was taken from you ( I cannot believe that they felt the need to do so seeing the job you had done with the previous eps.) but I am happy knowing that these were not your works. You are an extremely talented person to have done so much with this series and the overall feel of the series was increadible. You are amazing!
P.S.- Thank you for not helping stop them from driving the clan apart by the end of the third season. I can't believe that was even considered!
Thank you again for your time. I still look forward to seeing the rest of the series on dvd and have purchased season 1 already ofcourse, but I now have a whole new outlook on the Goliath Chronicles. Once again I am sorry you were unable to complete the series the way you had invisioned.
Thanks for the kind words.
THE NEW OLYMPIANS
(I had written a rather lengthy ramble on this last night, but due to some glitch or other, lost it. So, here I try to recreate that which was lost.)
This episode is always a little difficult for me to watch, mostly because of the unreasoning hatred and bigotry displayed by many of the New Olympians. It "angers the blood" in me, if you will. Things like Helios' "What a foul stench, it must be coming from the human!" just rankle me. I mean, I know that they have legitimate grievances (or, at least, their ancestors had them), and if they had only avoided Elisa, I might be a bit more tolerant. Despite the wrongness of his decision, I can like Boreas because he at least seems to try. Even Taurus, who has the seed of hatred inside him, does not always make decisions based on it, and even breaks up the riot. But the behavior of the rioters and their ringleaders--Ekidna, Kiron, and especially Helios (I don't know why I single him out, but if feels right)...it's just completely inexcusable (and loathsome).
Oddly enough, I don't feel the same way about Proteus, who is arguably more evil than any of the rioters. I mean, this is the guy who performs evil acts BECAUSE they're evil, right? And yet, I enjoy watching him. Why is that? Is it because Proteus does not make any excuses for his evil (at least, not here)? It's like...okay, you watch ANGEL, right Greg? You've seen that episode with that one guy, Billy (I think that was his name), the Hell-freed misogynist who could incite instant and violent hatred for women in any man he touched? (If you haven't, please skip to the next paragraph) It turned out that Angel was immune because he had worked past hate a long time ago, but he admitted that even as Angelus (his evil side) he was never motivated by hatred so much as a perverse sense of glee from inflicting suffering. And while I can actually kind of enjoy watching Angelus work (no matter what he does), I could feel only raw disgust and hatred at Billy, who tries to justify his bigotry. It's the same way with Proteus and the rioters, here.
Anyway, on with the episode.
I loved the music that played when the skiff passed through the "shimmering" area and New Olympus was first revealed.
Also, the designs for this episode were great--I love the many and varied character designs of the New Olympians themselves, especially Boreas and Helios.
And I echo Erin's assessment of the city: "Wow."
As soon as Elisa shoved the gargs off to the side and said, "No telling how they'll react to gargoyles," I immidiately put two and two together and figured out where this episode was going. I mean, whenever anyone says something so obvious like that it's almost like asking for the reverse to happen.
Interesting restraint system the N.O.s have. There's not much more I can say about it, but I did find it rather peculiar.
I agree with you about the Senate House walla, Greg. I must have heard that one guy say, "Humans can't live with us! They're dangerous! They're animals," or something like it, about two, maybe three times.
Also, theres a moment here that I always find a bit odd. When Taurus removes his helmet/mask, the way it's staged--the camera angles, and Goliath's spreading his wings--seems to indicate that this is some sizeable revelation. And yet, it was rather anticlimactic. Taurus, if anything, looked exactly as I expected him to look.
I like it that the "Leader" of the New Olympians holds a "lightning staff"--sort of harkens back to Zeus. Or is that thing particular to the Boreas of New Olympus?
And there's a moment towards the end of the Senate House scene that I missed until the third or fourth viewing: Goliath and Elisa embrace.
I do have to wonder about Boreas' decision here. What did he expect to happen? Did he have too high an opinion about the behavior of his people or did he suspect what would happen (which would make his decision somewhat malevolent)? I'd like to believe the former, but if that's the case, then he may be just a bit too optimistic.
And then we have the riot, which I've already touched on. Helios gets things rolling with his "stench" comment (kind of a racial slur), but Kiron throws the first punch. Like Todd, I find these two particularly reprehensible because they're supposed to be peace-keepers. Ekidna I actually find myself being more tolerant towards (maybe she reminds me of Demona). It's odd, but the way she talks about how the human's treated the N.O.s in the past sounds almost as if she experienced it personally. Then again, maybe I'm reading too much into that.
While Taurus' arresting Elisa is unjust, it did probably save her life in the immediate moment.
Actually, I find Taurus very interesting here as he's walking Elisa towards her cell. Whatever hatred he may have for humans, it doesn't stop him from telling Elisa about his father's murder by Proteus. He even manages to sound a little nice when he says "Make yourself comfortable, you could be here awhile." He also breaks up the riot, threatening to arrest everyone, and fire Helios (I love Helios' meek, "Y-yes, sir!"). Of course, I think a little of Taurus' own bias still shows through when he says "If you've got a problem, take it up with Boreas." It almost sounds as if he has a few things he'd like to say to the winged-one. Of course, I may again be reading too much into this.
Like I said, Taurus strikes me as someone who, while subject to prejudice, TRIES to act in spite of it. He's not always successful (he arrests Elisa instead of just moving her out of harm's way), but I'd like to think his effort counts for something.
And now we come to Proteus. I have to admit, my interest in him increased when you mentioned in a previous response that he was probably the closest thing to "pure evil," "evil incarnate," what-have-you that we have yet encountered in the GARGOYLES universe. There are many reasons I would have wanted to see the New Olympians spin-off, and a further exploration of Proteus' character was one of them. I would have loved seeing him in action beyond the scope of this one episode. And the late Roddy McDowell...what a great voice and performance.
I love how Proteus immediately begins quizzing Elisa about her mode of transportation. You can tell he's already thinking of escape.
Admittidly, Proteus may not be the best actor--"Who's that guy?" is probably the worst Goliath impression I've ever heard--but then again, he didn't have a heck-of-a-lot of time to study his subjects. I mean, if any of us had shape-shifting powers we could probably pull off a decent impression of the characters because we've watched and studied them so much. For what little time he had, Proteus' acting got the job done (up to a point--I'm not sure how convincingly he can turn to stone).
I find it interesting that Proteus' voice doesn't change when he becomes the Cyclops (is that a sort of secondary, "preferred form" for him?). I also find it interesting just how easily he seems to be hurt in that form. His fist connects with a collumn and he's in pain, and immediately after this he is felled by one punch from Taurus (granted it's to his EYE, but...).
One of my favorite sequences is in this episode. Proteus-as-Taurus, heads up to the Collinadium (however that's spelled) and begins to overload it. As he's doing this, Talos is explaining why this is a bad idea, and asking him to stop (while displaying missles) in such a frustratingly calm voice! I find it hilarious! Maybe that's why I feel sad when I see Talos' inert body hanging from Proteus' fist--I like the robot.
Angela does real well at dodging the restraints. If the sun hadn't rose, she probably could have kept it up for a while.
I always wince when Kiron tips over Bronx. It looks like something might have broken off.
Back to Proteus really quick--I love his transformations in this episode. The way he just sort of liquifies. The change from Goliath to Cyclops (with the two eyes becoming one) was especially well-done.
Taurus has his "I don't understand" moment, which is kind of required for episodes tackling subject matter like this. When the character actually says those words, I usually find it a bit too on the head, but Michael Dorn's acting helps make it work. And I love the wink Taurus gives Elisa.
One thing that I think many viewers may miss the first time is that Elisa DID NOT change the whole island--which is what would happen in another, more standard series (kind of like what TGC did with ANGELS IN THE NIGHT). Only Taurus and Boreas have really come to trust Elisa (Taurus even waves to her).
"The time may soon come when the world will have to face the New Olympians." When I first watched this, way back when it first aired, my mother watched it with me. As soon as Boreas said this, she turned to me with a smile and said, "I smell a spin-off." If we only knew how right we almost were.
(Then there's my brother, who thought that line sounded more like a threat...).
A little note on voices here. Having been an admirer of Rob Paulsen's work, I was glad to see him finally show up on GARGOYLES. I only wished I'd gotten to see more of him as Helios.
Overall, the voices were all well done (especially when the actors played Proteus-as-their character).
Yes, Taurus and Coldstone do sound a little too much alike, but Taurus has a slightly different speaking style than Coldstone, so that helps somewhat.
Of course, now that you've mentioned that Taurus, Talos and Proteus each had different voices originally, I'm going to be going crazy trying to figure out who they were!
This is a nice episode, with some rather difficult subject matter for me, but I like it. And I know I would have loved to see the NEW OLYMPIANS series.
Someday... someday...
Mr. Weisman, I watched "The Edge" today and found myself amazed by how well you and the writers (in this case, Michael Reeves) pulled off your surprise endings. They were always shocking without feeling 'cheap.' This is because they always make perfect sense in the context of the episode, once you know what's really up. I think the way you accomplished this, without resorting to manipulative or dishonest tactics, was to make the viewer feel like he was in control. For instance, in "The Edge," the viewer is happy to believe Xanatos has created a new, more advanced Steel Clan robot. That would have been a cool plot development in and of itself, and something the viewer felt he grasped better than the gargoyles did. In "The Price," the viewer knows that Macbeth is immortal, while the gargoyles do not, so he feels more in control than the gargoyles. Perhaps this even results in a sort of gracious laze-of-mind in the viewer, by which you and the writers used the gargoyles' naivete, both of the modern world and of the show's arching plot, as a way of lulling us into a false sense of security. Was this a conscious tactic? Is it something you and the show's writers saw yourselves pulling off or was it business-as-usual? Is such stuff taught in television writing classrooms? I've never seen another show pull off its surprise endings quite as remarkably as Gargoyles. The very first time you pull one off is "The Thrill of the Hunt," an episode that could well have ended, just as "The Edge," after the gargoyles turned to stone. But like "The Sixth Sense," you kept going, and in the process, turned what would have been merely "good" stories into great ones. These episodes and the others like them were not created for the sole purpose of their surprise endings. They were flesh-and-blood stories that you and the writers ended with surprises nonetheless. Most of the praise for Gargoyles goes to its multiethnicity, its voice cast, its music, its gothic atmosphere, the dialogue (which you claim was sixth-grade level, but I've never read a newspaper article as verbose as Goliath), and all deservedly so, but one of the most enduring aspects of all were the shock endings.
I'm glad that stuff works for you. It worked for us.
The main drive behind endings like that was a desire not to undercut our lead villains. Villains get tiresome when they lose all the time. And heroes are pointless if they lose all the time. (It's fun and dramatic and right to have both sides lose occasionally. But if either side loses ALL the time... well then where's the drama?)
But if a hero wins the battle and then we secretly reveal (in our patented Xanatos tags) that he may still be losing the war, then that keeps both sides interesting.
So it's not shock value for shock value's sake. But it lead us down a path that gave you the surprises you enjoyed. It forced us to always look BEHIND the obvious. Forced us to work harder. Then, I think the trick is to play fair. We may not reveal all, and -- your right -- our characters (human and gargoyle alike) may make incorrect assumptions about the situation, but all the clues are there from the moment the "PREVIOUSLY ON GARGOYLES..." starts to roll. (In fact, sometimes I feared that too many clues were planted.) By playing fair you get that double whammy at the end... both the surprise but also the "Of course..." That feeling that it's right. That it's not cheating. That in fact nothing else could possibly make sense.
Perhaps the ultimate example of that was the Owen/Puck revelation.
As for whether that's taught in writing classes? None specifically that I've taken. I've touched on it, here and there, in a couple of the classes that I've taught over the years. But I don't think I've ever focused a lesson plan on this point either. It's very much at the fine tuning end of the spectrum. Not something you'd get into in a survey course.
While utilizing the nifty SEARCH function, I decided to look up responses for "the whisper". I came up with this:
Question received on Mon, August 07, 2000 03:01:14 AM
Vasy writes...
1.What did titania whisper into fox's ear at he end of the gathering part2
Greg responds...
1. Do you think they'll be wondering about this in Ask Greg four years from now?
Response recorded on August 23, 2000
And given the most recent Q&A on that subject was recently posted.... 4+ years after that Q&A was done.... I think your answer holds true.. heh :) We were still wondering that in Ask Greg.. in 2004 :)
The fandom that you didn't anticipate has bugged you about something that you didn't think you would have been bugged about.
Keep it up, it's fun being confused, etc. :D
My pleasure. (Most of the time.)
EYE OF THE STORM
(And a Happy Thanksgiving 2004, BTW.)
This was the second time the Eye surprised me--the first being when it was revealed to be more than a mere bauble. Now we find out it really is Odin's eye, and he's looking for it.
I love Odin's "old wanderer" guise. The "star-cloak" is nicely done. His final, "Warrior-King" ensemble is a little less impressive to me, actually, but still nice (and hey--having little exposure to the great Kirby's work, it looked pretty fresh to me).
This is one of those episodes where, after watching it, you realise just how EASY things would have been if everyone had been honest and open from the start. As you pointed out Greg, Odin could have just said, "Hi! Welcome to Norway! I'm Odin, I'll be your resident supernatural being today. Oh, by the way, could I have my eye back please? I really miss having depth perception." He might have actually got his Eye in less time than it takes to watch the first Act. And poor Gunther and Erik wouldn't have lost a wall of their house!
Erik is an interesting fellow, to me. He know's Elisa's hiking story is suspect, but he doesn't want to press her about it, and in fact seems to have a rather cheerful attitude in spite of the deception. He also, to me, never seems to quite trust Goliath. Even after Elisa's first brought him up to speed he says, "From what you've told us, it sounds like we're in good hands with your Goliath." He doesn't sound completely sure about that.
Gunther's reaction to the gargoyles and the world they open up is great--wonder and enthusiasm. Pretty much what you'd expect for a boy his age. I love his eagerness to see Angela and Bronx wake up, along with his happy, "Hi, you must be An-GEL-a" (I love his strange pronunciation there).
I also love Angela's response to that greeting--"Uh...yes, I am." You go to sleep and then wake up on top of a car with a young lad happily saying your (mispronounced) name--yeah, that can be disorienting.
"The Fall of Goliath"--This was very well done. I liked how you guys developed the way in which the Eye "corrupts" Goliath. It takes his caring, protective nature and twists it into a rigid, tyrannical, "It's all for your own good" sort of thing. I have to admit I was at first surprised when it was revealed that he had been creating the storms, but afterwards it made perfect sense.
Actually, it's interesting that, after riding away and yelling "This isn't over," Odin really does cease to take any action against our heroes. He doesn't surface again until Goliath calls him out.
That battle is very well-done, BTW. It's pretty obvious that in terms of raw power, Goliath's got the edge, however Odin is the one who uses more subtlety--such as freeing Goliath's friends.
Goliath has some real "villain" moments in this piece, the most obvious of course being his line to Odin, "How frustrating for you, Old Man. To be so close to Death, and Rejuvination at the same time." Did anyone else hear a "Darth Vader Breath-Track" there?
Others would include the one you pointed out, Greg, where Goliath just says they'll "pack" Angela and Bronx--that always threw me off for some reason--and just the way he says, "A cave...yes, a cave would be ideal."
Before I forget, "Odinized Goliath" had a great design--and I like how it was tied in with Odin's "Warrior-King" design. The starry (sp?) wings were a nice touch, too.
SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS:
Goliath: "Believe it or not, we've hit ice."
Elisa: "I believe it." (A fun little exchange.)
I love how Goliath holds Elisa at the beginning. Obviously, it's to try and keep her warm...but there's, to me, a pretty strong undercurrent of attraction there. And I love his line (and the way he says it), "It is my duty to protect you."
Dang! In trying to get the Sturllisen's (sp?) car to stop, our heroes nearly send them over a cliff! Good thing Goliath can pretty much bench their car.
Elisa tries to outrun a man on a horse...well, I guess it beats just standing around, but they both have the same outcome.
I really wish more had been done with Goliath's first sight of the sun. This time, though, I began to wonder if Goliath was more enamoured with the feeling of the sun, or the feeling of the POWER coursing through him.
"Maybe you should take the Eye off now." I love how Goliath pauses ever so slightly before answering that.
I recall someone once saying that they were glad neither Gunther nor Erik became a new hero for Norway. :-)
Angela and Bronx are crusted with ice before they awaken. I rather liked that.
"The Eye! The Eye has gone to your head!" I love the look on Goliath's face after that--the raised brow ridge. It's almost like he's reacting to the (unintentional on Elisa's part) pun.
Goliath's turn around was a bit too quick and pat, but it nevertheless touched on Goliath's love for his daughter. I rather like Elisa's admission "Wish I'd thought of that." Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but it seems to me like it touches on Elisa's feelings for Goliath. Elisa may not be much for being the "Damsel in Distress"(tm), but all the same, I think she sort of likes being "rescued" by Goliath.
BTW, when'd the Eye get its "neck-chain" back?
To me, Odin's putting his Eye in its socket wasn't anti-climactic. It was just right. I mean, that's all he really wanted it for. And his and Goliath's final exchange was very well-done. I like how they admitted that each of them had kind of screwed up.
At any rate, I really enjoyed this episode and was glad to get a chance to see what happened when Goliath wore the Eye of Odin.
BTW, way back when you rambled on TEMPTATION (3 years ago, I think?) you said there were 3 toy tie-ins throughout the series. The first was the motorcycle in TEMPTATION. The second was supposed to be the helicoptor in HER BROTHER'S KEEPER (which wound up becoming a "sky sled"). And the third was supposed to be in this episode. So, what was the toy supposed to be?
"Oh, by the way, could I have my eye back please? I really miss having depth perception."
LOL
As for the toy connection, they wanted a "STORM-BRINGER GOLIATH" (I think that was the name). They were doing a whole line of elemental gargoyles. Ice-Brooklyn, I think, was one. They wound up doing Hudson as the storm gargoyle, I seem to recall (although it's been a LONG time and I don't have those toys).
Also, as I've mentioned before, the EYE OF ODIN itself was the invention of the Disney Interactive Games people, and they used it in the game they created over there. (In fact they had a better - NORSER- design than we had. I always thought that our design looked a bit too Egyptian.)
PENDRAGON
I have to admit, when this first aired, I was more than a little surprised to see Arthur showing up again (or at least, so soon after AVALON). Likewise with Griff. And it was even more surprising that you guys teamed them up like this. Surprising and delightful.
I was also pleased to see the return of Macbeth (for the last time in the regular series). I have to admit, at first I was a little disappointed that Macbeth was the antagonist, simply because after CITY OF STONE and SANCTUARY he had become such a tragic and sympathetic figure, you wanted to root FOR him, not against him. Also, I'm not sure, but I think a lot more of Macbeth's reverance for Arthur could have been shown. In fact, when he and Arthur are crossing swords (well, sword and mace) he says, "You will kneel to me" in an almost spiteful way. Of course, in the end, Mac shows himself to actually be a bigger man than Arthur when it comes to admiting defeat--he does so instantly, unlike Arthur who had to be coached (and I had never thought about the similarity to those who had challenged Arthur's legitimacy back in the legends).
Anyway, back to London. I agree with your reasonings for not giving Arthur a sword (though, personally, I would have preferred a double-bladed axe to a mace, but that's just me). I just love Arthur's surprise at a locked church--says a lot about how times have changed.
BTW, you said that one of Arthur's trips was to the Guggenheim in NYC--New York City, yes? I must say, I find that a bit surprising. Since he didn't run into the clan, I can only guess that it must've taken place during the day. And if I were him, I would have been more than a little cheesed-off that my path looped on me like that ("Aww, I just LEFT here!").
The Stone was a surprise, but cool (and I love Frank Welker's voice). If the Stone's speaking didn't surprise Arthur, though, I wonder what Arthur was reacting to when he gasped and lept back into Griff. He might have felt someone else in the room, I guess.
As for Griff's design, for the most part it's okay in this ep, except for where he recites the poem (nice poem, BTW). At this point, he loses his neck. It just looks like there's this huge LUMP in the middle of his shoulders that has a beak, eyes and a mohawk.
At any rate, I really like Arthur's portrayl (sp?) here. A lot of times in popular culture, it seems, he's turned into this infallible, wonderfully wise, Paladin-like character. While that is definitely a side of his personality, I like that it's only a side--Arthur is a human, and as such, imperfect. He's not terribly humble, he perfers acting to thinking (like you said), and continually refuses to accept the possibility that he may NOT be destined for Excalibur again. Actually, this makes him easier to identify with.
One bit I like: As Macbeth is performing the summon spell, Banquo yells over the wind and rain, "HE AIN'T PAYIN' US ENOUGH FOR THIS!" In hindsight, it's like a bit of foreshadowing for him and Fleance leaving Macbeth's service (and joining up with Castaway).
Arthur immediately recognizes Macbeth (no fond memories there), and Macbeth, of course, has no memory. I like how that doesn't really phase him, though.
The gargoyles expertly handle Macbeth and his goons (it's great how they disarmed them all in less than 5 seconds). Brooklyn displays his leadership of the clan when he opts to stay and collect "some answers" rather than pursue Macbeth.
And then the clan gets a big ol' 1-2-3 punch. 1) There's a gargoyle standing right in front of them--when they thought they were the last all this time. 2) King Arthur is there as well--THE King Arthur. 3) Both the gargoyle and King Arthur have seen their missing leader and friend, Goliath. It's a heck of a lot of information to take in, and that (coupled with their trying to find Excalibur and deal with Macbeth) kind of numbs them to the ramifications of Griff's very existence for the moment. Or, at least, that's my guess. I would have loved to hear them wonder whether or not Griff was the only other one.
One nit, here: The poem says "Ebon glass in emerald frame." And they (correctly) figure it's the lake, but the lake is just a dark blue. Ebon should be black. Oh, well.
Finally, we meet the Lady of the Lake. A fun little note, here: a few months ago, I turned some of my friends onto GARGOYLES, and sometimes they had interesting observations. One of them was along the lines of, "The Lady of the Lake would HAVE to be a Child of Oberon to have a body like THAT in the Dark Ages."
I like how Macbeth plugs in his crystal ball, and uses a monitor screen as his "scrying pool." Ah, the conveniences of modern technology.
Can't add much to what you've already said about the Water Djinn sequence, mostly because I find myself agreeing with you. Still, you guys only had 22 minutes or so to work with.
I got a kick out of the whole "Brooklyn" exchange. There are some inconveniences to being named after a location.
Like Todd, I was a bit surprised that Banquo (and Fleance as well, it seems) know about Macbeth's true identity. Mac must have a LOT of confidence in them.
At about this point, the Trio and Hudson largely take a backseat to the main action--Arthur and Griff vying with Macbeth for the sword. That's not to say that they don't have some good fight moments with Banquo and Fleance.
While it was never readily apparent that Banquo and Fleance were wearing power-suits, that knowledge does help explain a couple things I'd always wondered about: 1) How Banquo didn't lose his legs when Hudson hit them with what looked like the sword's cutting-edge, and 2) How Banquo wasn't crushed under the weight of both the tree AND Broadway.
Actually, Fleance seemed to be the more competent of the two in this battle--almost single-handedly taking out all four gargs. And she's got a tough hover-bike, one that crashes, but can still be used as stairs later on.
Griff encourages Arthur to continue fighting for Excalibur--yup, our king's found his first uber-loyal supporter.
The dragon...I am a BIG dragon buff, and I was indescribably pleased to see one in GARGOYLES, even if it was technically made of stone. The "vents" on the neck were an interesting and unique touch. And of course the whole "fight-and-flight" sequence was fun. The Trio and Hudson seemed to have the roughest time of it, being knocked back at the first, and then dodging fireballs while flying around the dragon's head, (Hudson whacking it with his sword...which right now reminds me of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where Lancelot whacks the French castle with his sword before retreating).
One thing that never ceases to amaze me is Griff's way of freeing Arthur--making the dragon drop him and then grabbing him by the *corner of his cape* as he starts to fall! Arthur never even blanched. Then again, this is the same guy who a few seconds later plunges his had into the magical fire to retrieve Excalibur. I loved that part, BTW.
Poor Macbeth looks so sad when he drops the remnants of the false sword. I like that Arthur asks Macbeth to join him. As I recall, that was something he often did in the old legends: make a friend and knight out of a former foe. Of course I also recall reading somewhere that Excalibur could burst into blue flame or some such thing, so what do I know?
Arthur pretty much states what his next quest is (find that old fart, Merlin), and then does something I didn't quite expect...he knights Griff. I have to admit, maybe it's a bit prejudiced on my part, but I never contemplated the idea of a gargoyle-knight. I like it though.
I didn't get the idea that this was a sort of "backdoor pilot" to a spin-off, but once I found out, it made perfect sense. If this ep was any indication, it was already shaping up to be a fine show.
There's my ramble, and tomorrow I start replying to EYE OF THE STORM.
I think you misunderstood me. The Stone sent him to the roof of the Guggenheim. I can't imagine that I said that he'd been there before. I don't think he'd been to Manhattan before. Of course, it's been two years, and I have no memory of what I wrote at all. But that seems unlikely.
j like gargoyles palun saadeke mulle golitah ,brookyln , lexi ,broadway.ühe groupis
Um... thanks.
Thanks for the ramble on "The New Olympians".
I've always had a soft spot for this episode, largely because I really like the notion of a whole society of "Greek mythology creatures/beings" out somewhere. I still hope that you can get to explore it some more later on; that spin-off sounded like a lot of fun.
Despite your mention of avoiding the actual gods for character models for the New Olympians (since the Greek gods were famous for looking too human to provide dramatic designs in the same way that a minotaur or centaur would), I did notice in the crowd scene (at the point when Helios is exaggeratedly coughing and retching in Elisa's presence) a woman carrying a bow who did bear a strong resemblance to Artemis (at least, as she's customarily depicted in myth-based art).
Ekidne at times struck me as almost channelling Demona in her cries of "Treacherous human!" and her eyes glowing red when angry. (Of course, Demona strikes me as another good case of "bigotry bringing about more bigotry", so it fits.)
Helios and Kiron's participation in the riot struck me as even worse than that of the other New Olympians; these guys are police, and should be discouraging such displays rather than encouraging them. (Whatever else you can say about Taurus, he had the decency to break up the demonstration outside Elisa's cell.)
Proteus struck me as a fun villain, with such lines as "They really don't like you, do they?" or his habit of tormenting Taurus by shape-shifting into his father. (I agree with you that Proteus doesn't seem to bother to do his homework; I'd caught all three of the flaws in his performance as Goliath that you'd mentioned - saying "Who's that guy?", providing a weak excuse for why he doesn't turn to stone in the daytime, and wanting to blow up New Olympus, which last - again - sounds more the sort of thing that Demona would do.) I also caught a moment when he's waving at Taurus with what appears to be an extra-large hand (which I assume is part of his shape-shifting again and not an odd-looking piece of animation).
One of my favorite bits is Elisa empathizing more with Taurus after discovering what they have in common - both police, and both have fathers who are police. Especially the bit where she wonders aloud how she'd respond if Peter Maza were to be killed in the line of duty.
Knowing your interest in Theseus, I certainly can't say that I'm surprised that one of the main New Olympian characters in the story would have a link to him, in the form of being descended from his most famous adversary. (Or that you'd do another take on Theseus and the Minotaur when you wrote an episode for Disney's animated Hercules series.)
The "humans of legend" bit reminds me slightly of a short story by J.R.R. Tolkien, "Farmer Giles of Ham"; in one scene, a giant is telling many other giants and dragons about his excursion into human territory, giving an exaggerated account of the food to be found there and of how little resistance one can expect from the local humans. The dragons promptly say eagerly "So knights are mythical, after all!"
Re your remarks about Talos - I wonder whether Talos could be described as truly prejudiced, being a robot rather than a flesh-and-blood being. (He certainly seemed the most pragmatic of the lot, as you put it.) Though, then again, maybe I'm displaying a bit of prejudice against robots and machines in not believing that they can develop feelings as humans and other flesh-and-blood beings can.
I'd caught the similarity of Goliath's "I cannot wage war upon an entire island" line to the earlier line "I cannot wage war upon an entire world" in "Awakening" - what made it most stand out to me is that the original line was spoken to Demona, and here he's saying something similar to Demona's daughter.
A neat little detail: the flying cars on New Olympus have little eyes painted in the front, just like those on an ancient Greek trireme.
Another of my favorite bits is Elisa's run-in with Helios, where she tells him about how Proteus is planning to blow up the island, leading to:
HELIOS: And you had to attack me to tell me that?
ELISA: Would you have listened to me if I'd just called you over?
HELIOS: Frankly, no!
Somehow I never spotted the hint of a spin-off at the end of this episode as I did for "Pendragon" - at least, not until I found out about the Master Plan. Now I find it an appealing idea, as I said above.
50 episodes down and only 16 to do. You're really making good progress on this one, Greg. Thanks.
I think I've only got three left now. Try to get to those soon.
Thanks for the ramble on "Eye of the Storm", Greg! This is another episode that I'm very fond of, especially because of the Norse mythology elements (which I've long been interested in, ever since reading the d'Aulaires' "Norse Gods and Giants" as a boy). While I had from the start taken a strong interest in the Eye of Odin on account of its name, I had not even suspected, before this episode aired, that this really was the very eye that Odin had given up for a drink from Mimir's well. And the revelation that it was definitely excited me.
I'd suspected that the Sturlissons were named after Snorri for some time; thanks for confirming it for me.
This episode answered one question that I'd had about the Eye for some time. I'd noticed the dark effect that it had had upon Fox and the Archmage, but I also knew that both of them had been "bad guys" before they ever donned it. So I was wondering what impact the Eye would have upon a "good person" who donned it, and whether it would corrupt them or not. This episode definitely answered my question, and made it clear that nobody was safe with the Eye except for Odin himself.
(As I mentioned in an earlier remark here, the Eye in this episode reminds me a bit of the One Ring in "The Lord of the Rings". Odin is attempting to recover his Eye for (more or less) the same reason that Sauron was attempting to recover the Ring; much of his power had passed out of it when he parted with it, and he needed to regain it to recover his old strength. And the impact that the Eye had on Goliath paralleled the element of how anybody who would try to use the Ring to defeat Sauron would become corrupted enough by it to become almost another Sauron. There's even the "eye imagery" in both cases. Of course, a major difference between the two stories is that giving the Eye back to Odin turned out to be the right thing to do - not to mention that Sauron definitely wouldn't have apologized to Frodo afterwards for all the trouble that he'd caused in trying to get the Ring back.)
I still find it a bit ironic that Odin would be ruefully admitting, at the end, that he was out of practice in dealing with mortals; in the original Norse myths, he was the only one of the Aesir who regularly interacted with humans much. All the other gods seemed to have dealings mainly with the other mythical races (dwarves, frost giants, etc.); Odin alone took part in human actions, often turning up in the human-centered sagas in his "old wanderer" disguise (such as thrusting the sword meant for Sigmund and Sigurd in the pillar of the Volsungs' hall, advising Sigurd on the correct means of slaying Fafnir, or engaging in a riddle-game with King Heidrek and winning when he asked a riddle - "What did Odin whisper in the ear of his dead son Balder?" - that only he knew the answer to). I can't help but think that if Odin's getting rusty in dealing with mortals, it's a good thing that Goliath and Co. didn't run into any of the other Norse gods while they were in Norway.
As I've also mentioned before, I was initially a bit disturbed by both Odin and the "Odinized Goliath" wearing horned helmets, since the series had shown earlier, in its character designs for Hakon and his Viking followers, that Vikings didn't actually wear those helmets, so my response was one of "The animators know better than that." I've come to accept this more, however, since both Odin and Goliath are "fantasy beings" rather than human Norsemen, and could be expected to dress more in accordance with popular notions about how Vikings dressed.
I hadn't picked up on the callousness of how Goliath spoke of transporting Bronx and Angela, but I did notice a couple of other acts of Goliath's while wearing the Eye which did, for me, serve as "danger signals". One was the way that he spoke when he was eagerly talking about seeing the sun for the first time; he delivered it in a very "over-the-top" fashion, almost straight out of Sevarius's style. (Though "over-the-top" in a good acting way, of course.) The other came when he, while reassuring Elisa that he was under control, patted her on the head in a very patronizing fashion.
(One thing that I'd really like to know was how conscious Goliath was of his motivations. Was he aware that his goal was to dispose of Odin so as to remove his chief rival claimant to the Eye, or did he believe that he was doing it to protect Elisa and the others, with his true motives buried deep below the surface without his being conscious of them?)
Perhaps the one thing about Odin getting his eye back that I find a bit of a pity is that his having one eye (and, as per the cartoon, in the original Norse myths, this was a feature that he had no matter what form he took on) was a major distinguishing feature of his; Odin having two eyes again feels to me, well, just a bit like Owen's stone hand returning to normal. But it certainly provided a great way to write the Eye of Odin out of the series.
I don't think the Eye-influenced Goliath was very self-aware at all.
As for Odin regaining his eye, I'll admit to a pang or two visually. But change is inevitable, and I think that the difference is that we KNOW Odin as one-eyed. Giving him back his eye is in fact change. Giving Owen back his hand is not allowing change.
Or at least that's how it feels to me.
Thanks for the "Pendragon" ramble, Greg.
This is, of course, an episode that I'm very fond of because of my being an Arthurian buff. I've been therefore eagerly awaiting your ramble on it for a long time, and I'm glad that the wait is finally over.
I hadn't expected Arthur and Griff to team up before this episode, but I very much liked the concept. I still think that it's a pity that the "Pendragon" spin-off never got made to show us their adventures. (It's still my personal favorite of the projected spin-offs in the Master Plan.)
Although you don't mention it, there's an echo here of the first Arthur-related episode in "Gargoyles", "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", with Macbeth again as the antagonist and Banquo and Fleance as his assistants. And again Macbeth is going after an Arthurian artifact.
A couple of bits about Macbeth in this episode still stand out to me. One is the fact that Banquo and Fleance know that he's *the* Macbeth; that got my attention at once. The other is that Macbeth, after drawing the fake-Excalibur from the statue, describes himself as "Macbeth, son of Findlaech". I very much enjoyed the little reference to his father, who thus gains a certain posthumous presence in the series long after "City of Stone Part One" (I find myself also recalling his cameo in "Avalon Part Two", when the Archmages are spying on Macbeth in 1020). Even when characters are dead, they're not forgotten.
I was initially a bit taken aback by the Stone of Destiny being the stone from the Sword in the Stone legend, since the Stone of Destiny was in either Ireland or Scotland at the time rather than in London (where the Sword in the Stone was set up), but I've since grown to accept it. It certainly makes sense; I've read a couple of commentaries on the Sword in the Stone legend which connected it to the Stone of Destiny, so equating them is certainly feasible. (I hadn't even considered the possibility of the Stone actually speaking those words to the assembled British nobles and knights until you mentioned it, I might add.)
I very much like the concept of Arthur's role being somewhere beyond Britain, even if it does take a different course from the traditional legends about his future return. (Arthur becoming ruler of Britain again would have made the Gargoyles Universe too different from the real world, of course, which gives an additional good reason to go in the direction that you chose.)
I hadn't even noted the parallel between Macbeth and King Pellinor, but I really like it. Thanks for sharing it with us. (I always was fond of Pellinor, from the time that I first met him in T. H. White's "The Sword in the Stone".) I certainly get a kick out of Arthur and Macbeth as allies - two of the most famous legendary kings of all time, if with dramatically different reputations. A real crossover concept, in fact.
Maybe the one weak point about the Gargoyles take on Arthur is that he seems a little too influenced by T. H. White - in the sense that he doesn't seem "uniquely Gargoyles Universe" enough. Other characters from traditional legend who cropped up in "Gargoyles" in major roles did so in a way that felt true to their originals, and yet in such a way that you could still, when meeting them, say "This is the Gargoyles Universe version of the character" at once. Macbeth was definitely this way, as is Puck, and so are the Weird Sisters, Oberon, and Titania. But Arthur feels maybe a bit too "conventional Arthur" in his appearances. Although I assume that, if you'd gotten to make the "Pendragon" spin-off, you'd have found ways of making him stand out a bit more from other writers' take on Arthur.
The bit about the fake Excalibur (which Arthur recognizes at once to be a fake) reminds me of a story in Malory where Morgan le Fay stole Excalibur from Arthur and replaced it with a worthless duplicate, while then giving the real Excalibur to one of her knights whom she then manipulated into attacking Arthur - obviously Arthur isn't going to be taken in by the lookalike ploy this time around.
And I certainly liked the concept of a different take on "the sword in the stone".
I can't help wondering a little what Leo and Una must have thought about Griff going off with Arthur so soon after he'd rejoined them, though I doubt that it was quite as bad this time around. For one thing, I get the impression that a major point behind it was that they didn't know for certain what had happened to Griff in "M.I.A.", and whether he was dead or not, which wouldn't happen this time around (since I recall that you mentioned that Griff called them up from New York long-distance). Also, there was the "buried guilt" issue over the fact that they knew, deep down inside, that they should have gone with him - and since now, after "M.I.A.", they've returned to being protectors, that isn't an issue any longer either.
At the end, I was eager to see Arthur and Griff go on their quest for Merlin, and thought it a pity that that story wasn't continued. (This will touch slightly on "Sentinel", but I'm saving my comments on that for when you ramble on it.) At least we get to see Arthur knighting Griff, which I thought was a great scene. And a fine way to begin a new set of adventures.... (Here's hoping that someday you'll get to tell them.)
I've got my fingers crossed certainly.
WALKABOUT
I'm not big on relating my entire reaction to an episode, but highlighting certain key reactions of mine that stand out. I'll start with the negative. The idea that this Matrix could be so rapidly developed by Xanatos along with all his other projects struck me as reaching a little far. That he never chooses to use the technology for commercial gain in industry (nanite construction) or medicine (nanite healers) also threw me.
Of course, this was Fox's and Anastasia's experiment, not so much Xanatos'. I liked the notion that perhaps Anastasia infused the Matrix with magic in order to accelerate it. I also choose to believe that the Matrix represented, for Xanatos, a sort of dark temptation. I like to think that after the failure in Australia, Xanatos decides it was for the best and that transfiguring the whole world for his purposes is not him, it is the deep inner demon in him that must be silenced. I think Xanatos is a guy who values reason and considers it the barrier and interpreter between his dark, inner demon and his outer surface of grace, charm and tact.
Anyway, I loved Dingo, the Shaman, and the Dreamtime. Neither the Shaman nor the Dreamtime were very thoroughly developed, but that is what I liked about them. The spare dialogue made the Shaman and the Dreamtime feel more mysterious and therefore attractive. The way the Dreamtime was used as a bridge of communication with the Matrix was a stroke of brilliance, I thought.
Finally, in the Dreamtime, I loved the way the Matrix is represented -- as that mechanical set of arms and gyroscopic "eye" that zooms in on Goliath like an insect as he gives his gloriously-written and very eloquent speech, which I also loved. Tha whole scene is perfect and made the episode for me. I love the stuff Goliath will say in a tight spot that manages to convey desparation and maintains eloquence at the same time.
I'm glad there was so much that you liked. I hate to therefore pick on the little bit of negative that you mentioned, but I can't resist, because it raises a larger point.
"The idea that this Matrix could be so rapidly developed by Xanatos along with all his other projects struck me as reaching a little far. That he never chooses to use the technology for commercial gain in industry (nanite construction) or medicine (nanite healers) also threw me. "
Except you don't know that any of the above statements are true. The fact that we hadn't shined a spotlight on this area of his conglomerate until "Walkabout" hardly proves that he (a) hadn't been in development of this tech for some time or (b) that he wasn't -- both before and after events depicted here -- attempting to exploit the tech industrially. Xanatos Enterprises is a BIG company, and most of their endeavors are, well, dull. The fact that I'm only telling the interesting stories doesn't prove that the mundane isn't taking place behind the scenes.
MARK OF THE PANTHER
And with this I should finally be caught up.
In the first few minutes, I found myself fearing that this episode would be focused primarily on our heroes stopping poachers. To me, it just seems that whenever a series does an episode like that, it turns into something where story and character are put on hold for the sake of a message or moral. Even if the message or moral is good, if that's all the episode is about it just winds up feeling hokey and forced.
Thankfully, that was not the case with this episode.
I loved the whole "I've saved you--OOF!" thing at the waterfall. A nice way of continuing, and yet making fun of, Goliath's "always being there to catch Elisa" habit.
I actually didn't recognize Diane Maza--it had been a while since I'd seen her (or even heard her VOICE), and her character design looked a bit different (not just in wardrobe, something in the face, too). Regardless, I'm still glad she appeared, and I was VERY pleased that Elisa finally got word to (at least one of) her parents.
The Panther Queen story was, of course, fantastic. It never ceases to amaze me that it all took place in the first Act. It just seems to be "bigger" than the space allotted it. I was actually kind of surprised to learn that you guys made it up yourselves. Actually, I was even more surprised to find out in the original outline, "The Jaguar Queen" that you guys didn't even have Anansi!
Angela tries to view the world through the prism of her experience, wondering if Diane is a Queen or Magus. I always loved that.
Elisa's sheepish excuses around her mother always threw me--considering the circumstances (which any reasonably intelligent person would know could not be explained with "being on a case") the truth was obviously the only way to go. But like you said, Greg, Elisa's a little selfish with her secrets.
I sincerely wished that you guys had had enough time to put in some reference to Elisa's leaving Matt an (unreceived) message.
I love the looks on Angela and Goliath's faces during the, "You're right, parents and children should be able to discuss anything" sequence. Just as I like how when the gargoyles do join the action, Elisa just smiles while Diane's face takes on a more terrified/surprised expression.
One thing that always bothered me, though--Angela BENDS a spear, as though it were metal. Maybe it was, but it sort of looked like wood to me.
I loved the were-panther transformations. Especially in Karadigi. Just the way the humans stayed on four limbs for a bit after having transformed back.
I, too, enjoyed Goliath's rather surprised/pliant "Of course not" to Diane's proud statement, "I don't need looking after."
Actually, another interesting character bit here--Goliath was going to send everybody else off in one group and travel his path alone. He seems to have this kind of "I'm the big and strong one, so I can handle anything without any help," mentality. Shades of where the Eye of Odin would eventually take him?
Diane wonders why Goliath can't just fly out of the hole--again playing to human's initial assumptions on gargoyles. I just love how Goliath is so nonchalant about the tiny spiders crawling over him, or their webs hanging off him.
Elisa, Angela and Bronx's trap is pretty darn creepy--being entirely covered in a "web blanket."
The talks on parenting are well handled--they get the point across without being overbearing. Actually, it took me a while before I realized that Goliath's treatment of Angela was more out of personal fear rather than just following clan customs. And now that I think of it, Elisa's complaints about her mother reminds me of how she disagreed with Goliath's keeping Angela in the dark in SANCTUARY. Maybe that's why Angela's words meant so much to Elisa--she thought of how unhappy Angela is at NOT being able to talk about things with Goliath.
I was surprised with Tea's story about how Fara Maku marked her--it kind of switched who was the victim between the two. I loved Diane's line, "That's not love Fara. That's selfishness." That leads me to wonder how many people have let their own selfishness outweigh their love in relationships.
When Anansi finally makes his grand entrance, all I could think was, "DAMN, that's a BIG SPIDER!" Don't ask me how, but I just knew LeVar Burton had to be in this episode somewhere, and he did a great job as Anansi, though I could barely recognize his voice. If Anansi had ever taken human form, I would have loved hearing LeVar's un-altered voice.
When Anansi starts losing the battle, I love how his eyes take on a very worried look (almost makes me feel sorry for him), and he starts trying to placate our heroes with wishes.
I was surprised that you guys actually "killed" Anansi--I hadn't thought the little spider at the end was actually him (possibly because that spider was brown instead of purple), but I am glad for the thought.
As for Tea and Fara Maku's reconciliation...yes, I'm afraid I can't help but find it a little too easy. Again, this is one of those times that I wish GARGOYLES could have run longer. Heck, if Tea had been awake (and reacted) when Fara swore to serve Anansi forever if Tea was freed, it might have worked better for me.
The resolution between the parents and children was well done. Yeah, Goliath and Angela's was pretty sappy (mostly because of Angela's reaction, and the swell of the music, IMO--Goliath's always cool), but it was still okay. Diane's and Elisa's was just great, and I love Diane's line that sometimes love can be about "letting go".
Funny thing about Elisa's "No" at the end--I didn't even hear it until the second or third time I watched this ep. And I think you're right that the ending plays better without it.
GOLIATH THE PANTHER-GOYLE: Sometimes you can only see these things through the eyes of a child. ;-)
Seriously, though, it wasn't necessary, and from what I saw in the "Panther Queen" sequence, it looks like it has to be done in a very specific fashion. So I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
My ramble's a bit all over the map, but trying to do two rambles in one sitting is enough to tax anyone's brain. Suffice to say, this really is a great episode all around, and I enjoyed sharing my thoughts on it.
Looking forward to your next ramble!
Ugh, see... I have got to catch up here, because I haven't a clue as to what "Goliath the Panther-Goyle" refers to.
WALKABOUT
This is one of those episodes that has a lot I like, and a lot that I felt could have been better.
One of the latter was, of course, the "off" portrayal of the Dream Time. As Todd already said, the Dream Time is basically Antiquity. In that view, the Shaman's statement that the gargoyles come from the Dream Time makes sense. That being said, I DID like the battle that took place in the Dream Time (more on that later).
One thing that really struck me this time around was just how CALM everyone was when the Matrix started to go overboard. I mean, Fox and Anastasia are just calmly talking about the "Grey Goo Scenario" and how the world will end in just this straight (and sometimes rather flippant) manner while everyone else largely just stands looking serious. I mean, it's like everyone's going "Hmmm, we'll all most likely be dead in less than half an hour and the world will end...Hmmmm." In the case of Anastasia it kind of makes more sense (or will after will learn about her "double life") but with everyone else? Elisa seems to be the only one even close to panicking.
And, of course, the whole "Law and Order" thing.
But there was a lot about this I still liked.
Dingo was the big one. I'd been wondering what happened to him since GRIEF, and now here he is, trying to start over. I liked this--we've already seen good people "fall" throughout the series (Demona, of course, but also Macbeth, the Captain and even Renard for an episode), and some of those people redeemed themselves, of course. However, this was the first time that someone who we first saw as a villain actively tried to reform of his own volition. Not only did Dingo prove himself perhaps one of the smarter and more able-bodied members of the Pack when they were human, but also the most sane and...well, like you said, Greg, HUMAN. Actually, Dingo showed even more than the "quest for redemption"--his discussion about the nanites and comparing them to enzymes and the like indicated that he was probably far smarter than anyone ever gave him credit for.
On the subject of that conversation, two things that always stood out: Dingo's mention of Coyote (more continutity, and a bit of added depth to Coyote), and the "voice reverb" on the helmet. The way it subtly changes Dingo's voice right in mid-sentence when he puts it on (kudos to the sound team).
Also, Dingo's utilization of his suit was great. I loved how he used it as a sort of missile against Goliath by remote control. The removal of the helmet was a bit different here than in UPGRADE (Dingo had some sort of yellow hood, the front of the helmet rises like a mask, etc.).
Moving away from Dingo for a bit, I was also happy to finally meet Anastasia Renard, and extremely pleased to see a visibly pregnant Fox. That last part was important, simply because in most visual mediums there's a little "If you don't see it, it didn't happen" mentality, so this made Fox's pregnancy that much more REAL.
The Matrix itself was fairly interesting. I must admit, I was a bit surprised that the ultimate solution was not to destroy it, but to "convince it of its error."
Also, the "Grey Goo" did seem a bit more random than it perhaps should have been, but at least it was well animated.
I rather enjoyed the interactions between Dingo and our heroes. The first instinct on either side is to attack first, of course. And after escaping from the the Grey Goo together, our heroes' first thought is that Dingo had something to do with it (and they're actually right, but he's not THAT involved). And Dingo gets a bit defensive and even territorial about them being in Australia (loved the slang that Mr. Cummings put in there, BTW). When Dingo suggests that only he and Elisa see the Shaman, Elisa gets this great, almost disgusted look on her face, like someone asked her to swim through garbage. And, when Dingo's participation in Fox's research is revealed, and he tries to explain this isn't what he expected, he takes a step towards Elisa, who in turn takes a step back. I somehow get the feeling that Goliath's more apt to trust Dingo than Elisa would ever be.
Loved the music during the "Matrix chase" scene. Not so sure about the "white glow" that occurs whenever the goo passes through a surface.
Fox did have a rather "cliched villain" idea--a machine to transmogrify the world to suit the controlling individual. Yet, it seems to me that Fox is more enamoured with the *idea* and having the capability of doing that, than actually doing that. Again, she displays that she's more interested in fun than results (unlike her husband).
Actually, that's the funny thing--Xanatos is connected with this episode, but he really has nothing to do with what's going on (kind of like in MONSTERS).
The revelation to Goliath that Fox is Halcyon Renard's daughter was nice, I'm glad it made it in there, but it always just feels too quick. If only there had been more time--I would have loved Goliath's musings on that new bit of information.
Now, the Dream Time battle. I did notice that the combatants used what was familiar to them (in fact, a few of Goliath's gestures looked like he could have been invoking magical spells, and his psuedo-clan shot lightning from their hands). Of course, the Matrix still manages to best them, and only relents when Goliath says what I consider to be the best line in this episode, "Your peace is that of the grave!"
When Dingo talks about being a hero again, he's smiling. Think about it--how many times has Dingo given a genuine, happy smile.
And then the Matrix bonds with his suit, and Dingo becomes a new kind of hero; one whose adventures I would have been most interested in watching.
RANDOM NOTES:
When my brother watched this with me (after having seen THE HOUND OF ULSTER the previous day) he remarked about the gang creating heroes wherever they go.
Batwave...y'know, it's funny. You probably started these rambles, before "The Batman" was even in development. :-)
And there's my ramble!
Thanks. It's a good one. Of course, the problem with the delay here at ASK GREG is that at this point it's been two years since I've seen "Walkabout"... or read my own ramble on the subject. "Batwave" just seems like a non sequitor to me now.
hey,Greg. What´s up??I am from argentina and yes :We love Gargoyles here too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I always see Brooklyn and Demona figthing when they are together but Who is more stronger?? I really think that Demona would kill him very easly if some one would give her the chance but...you know....
I really love when Demona and Macbeth start figthing is very cool. In the reckoning, Macbeth "lost" the figth,but Demona would shot him if Eliza would not stop her. She wanted die because wath had happened with Tailog or she was just angry at Macbeth and she really wanted to see HIM death.Besides it mas not posible.Allrigth, it is done. Chau
Demona vs. Brooklyn? It's all situational to me. Demona is without a doubt the WAY more experienced warrior, and as Brooklyn isn't yet, I feel, fully grown even, she may still be his equal or better physically. But motivation matters in battle as well. Both are pretty well-motivated at this point. I don't know... It's all situational to me.
And thanks for the kind words.
THE HOUND OF ULSTER
At last!! I say that both because it's a new ramble, and I'm finally able to add my own. I'll play catch up with your other additions over the weekend.
When I first saw this episode, both the "Previously on" segment and the title indicated that Bronx would get some exposure. I wasn't sure HOW since there's only so much you can do with a dog (or even a dog-like beast) without giving them some anthropomorphic qualities. Consequently, I think it makes since that Rory Dugan became the protagonist.
And yet, that in itself is unique. Here we have a non-regular being the main character of the episode--hightlighted with that wonderful "hero-shot" where the camera circles around Rory's face (well done bit of animation, that). I mean, I don't know of too many other series that do that (well, maybe there were some old "Batman: TAS" episodes that seemed to focus more on the villains, but they're the VILLAINS!)
I love Molly's character design--the hair-style, the eyes, the three belts (in technicolor!) around her waist.
Rory's vision of Crom Cruoch really threw me the first time I saw it. Then I completely forgot about it until the Banshee transformed at the end.
BTW, time out here to say kudos to the voice work all around. Colm Meaney's (sp?) guest turn was great. Scott Cleverdon did excellent work (and HE added the battle cry?! I love that thing!). And as for Sheena Easton, hey do I really need to say anything?
Loved the Banshee's keening! I have to wonder though...it seems to me that gargoyles have a stronger sense of hearing than humans, yet the Banshee's cry is apparantly more fatal to humans.
Anyway, I was a little surprised at our heroes sinking into the bog right off. Very tense the first time you see it, and a nice little character bit for Goliath--he turns from Elisa to try and save his daughter, but can't and turns back to find Elisa has already sunk beneath the surface. For a guy so big on protecting his loved ones that must have been a truly hellish moment.
But Bronx escapes and we get our first glimpse of the Banshee.
Rory's discussion with his Dad is interesting to me, mostly in how pessimistic and cynical Rory acts. One line of his that I always like (even if I don't agree with it): "There are no heroes anymore! Only villains! And they've got us all beat." Sometimes it's very easy to think that.
Our main heroes wake up trapped in the Cairn, and Goliath says that "a whole clan of gargoyles could not batter down these walls." That line always struck me for some reason.
A bit disconcerting that Elisa's muddy in this scene and clean in the next, but "meh".
And although Cuchullan's remains would have been nice, I don't really miss it (unlike the whole Anubis thing). Besides, how much of an unmummified corpse would be left after 2,000 years?
Rory meets Bronx and between the pooch's outlandish appearance and the legends of his father, Rory reacts in a perfectly reasonable way...he runs like hell. And falls off a cliff (looking at it from the wide shot, I can't help but think it's a miracle he survived).
BTW, the little memo you posted finally clears up why Bronx singled out Rory--the Banshee's scent. Yet Bronx can still sense that Rory's not an enemy.
The Banshee talks with our "main heroes." I can never stop noticing her rather exaggerated gestures. She must be a bit of a drama queen. I like her "ghost" form, though.
The Banshee does have that one character trait (which Todd has already mentioned) that annoys me to no end: she does not even consider the possibility that her prisoners might be telling the truth. And as you pointed out she could have just mesmerized it out of them (no fuss, no muss), which makes her behavior even more inexcusable.
After the Banshee hears Bronx and splits, and Angela says that Bronx will save them (she's got more faith in her pooch than I've ever had in any of mine, I'll admit), the camera starts to briefly zoom in before cutting to the next scene. I'm always wondering what got cut, if anything.
When Molly transformed into the Banshee...I figured they were both one and the same. At least, until Molly appeared in Rory's house the next day and said she'd go with him to the Cairn because she loved him. THAT cast some doubt in my mind.
"Be still little mortal and come quietly with me, into the dark." That line still sends my dirty little mind reeling with possibilities. ;-)
I like Mr. Dugan's attitude towards his son's visions: he may not entirely believe in them, but he's not about to go tempting fate in regards to them, either.
A little animation bit I only really started noticing after you mentioned exploring more of the relationship between Rory and Molly--when Rory strides down the hill towards the Cairn, Molly gets a sad/worried look on her face. Rory isn't looking at her so she doesn't have to act, but it's still there. It's more than just avoiding an old enemy that makes her want to keep Rory in the dark.
I love the voice acting in the Cairn--as the two characters talk, a bit more of each's "other" starts to creep into their speech.
I love the whole "Gae Bolga" scene.
"Skills may rust indeed, but true friendship stays bright." Y'know, because of the accent, I didn't understand what he was actually saying there for YEARS!
I always noticed how you guys had Goliath and Angela, the usual heavy hitters, get knocked away by Crom Cruach the instant they try to join the battle. Makes sense--this was Rory and Bronx's show!
"And there's no kind of training schemes for this job, I'll wager." Nope, and no pay either! Just ask Spider-man!
On the "Thor" subject, I never knew that much about Thor (either comic or mythology) until a bit after GARGOYLES, so for me this was fairly fresh.
Dog's (or gargoyle beasts) can look smug! I've seen it myself!
RANDOM THOUGHTS:
I always thought the "Previously on" segment for this episode felt awkward towards its end--your ramble helps clear that up.
One thing that struck me this time out was the Banshee's character design, especially in the face. It can move from beautiful to rather corpse-like.
Yes Cuchullan was the "Hound of Ulster," but only because he killed the original hound and vowed to act in its place until a new one was raised. Who's to say these hounds weren't gargoyle beasts?
Great ramble!
Those "Hounds" were indeed Gargoyle Beasts in the Gargoyles Universe, and as I've learned more about the legend SINCE doing the episode, it seems to me that as Cu Chullain was replacing the "Hound" he killed, he would also be raising and training a new "Hound" to eventually take his place. That, to his mind, was the Hound of Ulster that he recognized in Bronx.
Or that's my current theory anyway.
One other thing about "Mark of the Panther" that I forgot to mention: I find it somehow amusing and appropriate that Elisa and Diane Maza would have a run-in with humans magically transformed into panthers in light of how a member of their family had already been turned into a panther-of-a-sort (though through science rather than through magic).
So you caught that. Good.
Thanks for the ramble on "Mark of the Panther". (Boy, we're really coming along well with the rambles now! Isn't it great?) Here are my thoughts on it.
One of the moments that still most stands out to me is the legend of the Panther Queen that was incorporated into the story; the change of animation to set the old tale apart from the present-day action was a particular delight for me. (Although I hadn't even thought until you mentioned it that somebody tuning into "Gargoyles" during this story could have mistakenly believed that they were watching a different television program.)
I've read a little about Anansi before the series came out, though I'm no expert upon him. One thing that I had learned about him, which I think that the episode captures accurately, is that his tricks and schemes had a tendency to backfire upon him - and this is what happens in both the Panther Queen story and the main action. In the Panther Queen story, Anansi, indignant about having to turn the Panther Queen's son into a panther, banishes all the humans from Karadigi - and then realizes too late that he's just sacked his entire hunting force, so who's going to bring him food now? And in the present day, Anansi's getting Fara Maku to hunt for him worked too well - he gorged himself to such an extent that, once out of his web, he was too fat and unwieldy to fight the gargoyles effectively.
Diane's helping to resolve satisfactorally the problem of Goliath's difficulty in acknowledging Angela as his daughter reminds me of something that you once said about why they generally leave mothers out of Disney movies: the mother, if she was there, could have found a solution to the problem so quickly that there'd be barely any story. And once Elisa's mother shows up, she does indeed help solve the Goliath-Angela problem (though without preventing there from being a story).
And I picked up (by the last time that I saw this episode, a few months ago - I regularly watch my "Gargoyles" tapes every summer) on the link between Diane telling Fara Maku about his desire to keep Tea by his side "That's not love; that's selfishness" and her telling Elisa at the end that love is about letting go.
The moment that you mentioned about Diane telling Goliath with a certain indignant dignity "I don't need protection" and Goliath saying "Of course" always amused me - and I found myself also thinking of "mother-in-law" towards Diane at that moment.
The first time that I saw this episode, I thought that Anansi had indeed been slain at the end, though "The Gathering Part One" proved me wrong on that. And, truth to tell, I'm kind of glad that the Children of Oberon are so difficult to kill and that we haven't had any genuine deaths among them as yet in the series. After all, they are (or the bulk of them are) traditional figures in humanity's own myths and legends, part of our cultural heritage. Obviously, a genuine death for Anansi wouldn't result in everyone forgetting the tales about him, but still, his passing, or the passing of any other member of the Third Race, would somehow (to me, at least) diminish the "tapestry of story" that we have gained from them. (When we get to "The Gathering Part Two", I'll mention how Oberon's sentence upon Puck has a similar, if not as strong, impact upon me.)
Thanks also for telling us about how Bronx somehow reminded you and your family of Norman again. (I wonder now how the Cagney scenes in "Gargoyles" would have affected me if I'd seen any of them between the time that my old cat Merlin passed on, two months ago, and the time that I adopted my new kitten Obie.) Norman sounds like he must truly have been quite a dog.
Norman was indeed quite a dog. I miss him still. We have two new old dogs now, Sammi & Abraham and we still have our cat Bigtime, but we recently lost our cat Iggy during a power outage. And when I say "lost" I mean that literally. Heat wave. Power outage. Open windows. He must have run off. But he hasn't come back.
Kinda know how Hudson felt about Bronx during the World Tour. So I'm hoping Iggy's having fun in his own personal Avalon.
Thanks for the Election Day present, Greg - namely, the "Walkabout" ramble! Here's some thoughts of mine on it in response.
For a start, I missed this episode the first time around (due to my moving to my first Central West End apartment the day that it first aired), so I only got to see it during later showings (by which time, of course, I'd seen "The Gathering" and knew the real story about Anastasia Renard). Fortunately, it didn't ruin the episode for me.
Generally, I have difficulties with the notion of an artificial intelligence as the antagonist (whether a computer, a robot, or what-have-you) - when it's a deliberate antagonist, that is, as opposed to just following orders like the Steel Clan robots or Renard's cybots - because I find it a little too difficult to imagine a machine becoming evil. I believe (like Goliath in "Outfoxed") that it takes a living being to engage in motives of good or evil. So, for example, I usually have a hard time accepting a computer or robot out to conquer the world since that would require it to have emotions (power-hunger, greed, paranoia of the "I've got to conquer them before they conquer me" variety), which I can't imagine an artificial intelligence developing. That said, I found that Matrix's actions in "Walkabout" worked for me since it wasn't out to reformat the world out of "villainous motives" but merely because it was obeying its programming, to create order, and thought that it was carrying out its duty. It might not even have understood, at that stage in its development, that its bringing order to the world would mean disaster to all living things on the planet. So the Matrix worked for me.
(I might add that one of my favorite bits in the episode comes when Goliath is protesting repeatedly to the Matrix in the Dreamtime that its form of order would bring about death to everyone on Earth, and the Matrix replies, in this almost desperate fashion "But we must have order." It said that in a way that felt, to me, as if it was beginning to understand at last what Goliath was saying, but still had the problem that its programming demanded that it produce order, and it couldn't go against its programming.)
I'd gotten fond of Dingo after "Upgrade", and so I enjoyed seeing him again, wanting to make a change for the better. The touch that I especially liked was his mentioning about how he'd used to be a hero to a lot of people when he was on the Pack's television series, and wants to go back to that, only this time being a real hero rather than just playing one on television.
You're correct about the "Dreamtime" being not quite accurate; a friend of mine who knows more about Australian Aborigine legend than I do pointed out that the Dreamtime was actually a "mythical time period" when the world was being created rather than some sort of other dimension.
I liked your mention of how the Avalon World Tour was supposed to take the cast to every inhabited continent (the "inhabited" part would explain the absence of Antarctica - which you were planning on sending King Arthur and Griff to, anyway). Technically, they don't set foot in South America unless you enlarge its boundaries to include Central America (in this case, Guatemala), and don't set foot on mainland Asia (as opposed to Japan) in the television series (though there's your Himalayas story that you'd planned for the Gargoyles comic to make up for that).
I got a chuckle out of Erin's response to the name "Matrix" in connection to the movies.
Of course, another big element is the introduction of Anastasia Renard on stage at last, plus seeing Fox pregnant. (I've sometimes wondered whether there were any S&P issues with that part.) I especially liked Goliath realizing that Fox is Renard's daughter after being introduced to Anastasia.
Again, thanks for the ramble. I'm really looking forward to more to come.
I don't recall any particular S&P problems with Fox's pregnancy. Though I definitely feel that the mere fact that we were allowed to have Fox get pregnant was something of a miracle.
Thanks for the first new Ramble in a year, Greg. I really enjoyed reading the "Hound of Ulster" one, and hope that this is the first of many more to come in the last couple of months of 2004; I've been eagerly awaiting the rambles for the last 22 episodes of "Gargoyles" that you worked on, after getting the rambles for the first 44.
I only saw the first half of the episode the first time that it aired (I was in the middle of a move from the suburbs to the Central West End of St. Louis in early 1996, and so missed the end due to working on the move with my family). And by the time that I got to see the whole thing through, I'd already seen "The Gathering", complete with the Banshee's fate at the hands of Oberon. Not that it hurt things that much. Since then, I watch my taped version of it regularly each St. Patrick's Day, as a holiday tradition. The big pity is that I can no longer remember my initial response to it (such as whether I thought that Molly was a person independent of the Banshee whom the Banshee merely masqueraded as once or twice, or whether they were one and the same). Sorry about that.
I was amused to discover that you'd originally thought of calling this one "A Bronx Tail" in light of how the Goliath Chronicles used that title later on. (I recall that they also used that title in the "Gargoyles" comic book series, at one point.)
I honestly hadn't thought of the Lassie connection with Bronx until you mentioned it (but then, I know Lassie more by reputation). (I did catch the Wizard of Oz quotes right away, though.)
I'm a bit puzzled by your mention of a certain "Liscoo". Is that the name of Rory's hometown (if so, it obviously didn't make it into the dialogue of the completed episode)?
You were correct in not using the term "Barghest" for that episode, since it's indeed linked to northern England (those viewers who were already aware of the discrepancy from the original Cuchulain legend would have let you have it even more if the term "Barghest" had gotten into an Irish story!). But I like the notion of associating gargoyle beasts with the "black dogs" of Britain and Ireland. The "black dogs" of British and Irish folklore do match gargoyle beasts; they're generally nocturnal, are awe-inspiring creatures that can strike fear into people's hearts, and yet often appear in the role of protectors, despite their fearsome quality. So Bronx playing the role of one of them works.
I find the "dwarves made my shoes" line appropriate, since one of the most famous mythical denizens of Ireland is the leprechaun, and leprechauns are dwarflike shoemakers. (Was that line intended as a direct reference to leprechauns, or is it just another neat coincidence?)
(Another piece of trivia: the Cromm-Cruach - the Banshee's "death-worm" form - or, more precisely, its namesake in Irish mythology, was the source for the name of Crom, the god worshipped by - or, more accurately, sworn by - Conan the Barbarian. Robert E. Howard, the man who originally created Conan, had the habit of borrowing almost all of his names from actual legend and ancient history.)
I'd thought myself (after a couple of showings of the episode, though not right away) that there is a certain similarity between Rory/Cuchulain and the Mighty Thor of Marvel Comics (both modern-day people who become "real" mythical figures after discovering a stick that transforms into the mythical figure's traditional weapon). Hopefully you'll be able to solve it if you ever bring the series back long enough for Rory to show up again.
And, yep, the Banshee did pass up the opportunity to mesmerize her prisoners. (She also showed that annoying tendency that so many interrogators have of "I've already made up my mind about whether you're innocent or guilty, so all the evidence that you're innocent won't mean a thing to me." A bit like Nokkar later on in "Sentinel", in fact.)
I share your delight in Rory's dad's lack of enthusiasm at seeing Molly. I also enjoy the parts where Rory warms to Bronx (particularly where he actually rides him).
And, yep, it wound up being mainly Rory's episode - but Bronx still got a big role in it.
I have long term plans for more on Rory, Banshee and even--
Oh no, it's the SLG SPOILER POLICE!
"Damn it, Weisman! Save SOME surprises for the comic book!! Don't make us punish you ... again!"
Hello Mr. Weisman,
(Not really a question, just putting in my two cents.)
I have recently learned of the Gatherings but do to my
crazy college schedule & budget I have not been able to
attend. After reading some of the Gathering journals it is
incredible to see how one show can bring so many people
from across the country together. Gargoyles has inspired
many people to read more, put their own thoughts in writing
and appreciate some of the greatest works of literature. I
hope one day that the dream/goal of bringing Gargoyles back
will come true/be accomplished. It is wonderful to find
out that such a dedicated person, such as yourself, takes
time out of his life to answer questions from the fans. I
have heard about the DVD and will be purchasing it as soon
as it comes out. The show has truly opened the doors to an
amazing world where everything, even the smallest things,
contain some kind of meaning that holds true in everyday
life. Please excuse any grammatical errors on my part but
I have my first nursing exam tomorrow and need to get back
to studying so I was rushing a bit. I know that there are
many other entries for you to answer before mine so I don't
expect a reply right away. I just wanted to thank you for
creating a fantastic show and letting the fans know that there
are more fans out there.
Thanks, I appreciate it. It's been a couple of years, so I hope your now a Nurse and attending Gatherings and buying DVDs and comic books.
Hello Greg! How are ya? This is just part of my ramble for the Awakenings. I will have to post the rest later. :(
My ramble for Awakenings...(sorta)
AWAKENING part I
The Awakenings are some of my favorite episodes of the series. You kind of have to see these first episodes to understand the entire series. I have decided to watch all my tapes beginning to end to observe more carefully for things I have been meaning to ask but forgot over the years.
Scotland, 994 A.D.
I like how the episode starts,right in the middle of a battle between Castle Wyvern and the Vikings) I have always been interested in history, and wars are a big part of history. It looks like a real battle,(arrows flying everywhere)and I see a huge rock thrown at Wyvern and breaks off a large part of the castle.
And this is how far I got before the VCR ate my tape. I got stuck and i am afraid to try it again. I wouldn't care much because it is mostly The Goliath Chronicles episodes, but I also taped the "Awakenings" and "Hunter's Moon" part II and III. I have four tvs in my house, two have VHS, I have an individual VCR and NOTHING seems to work! I'm going to have to tape the episodes again(because they're my favorites!!) but I don't have a GOOD tv to do that with AND I do not have cable, satellite, DirectTV, etc... So it will be a LONG time.
Sorry for wasting your time but I'm frustrated and I needed to share this. :D
[I can't wait for the DVD.]
Thankx for your time.
Hopefully, by now you've got both DVD sets... (all of season one, including Awakening and half of season two... for a total of 39 canon episodes plus a number of cool extras).
This isn't a journal, I guess. It's just a shout-out. It isn't a journal because I didn't get to the Con, but if it had been anywhere within, oh, a 500-mile radius of me, I would have been there, so I feel justified in at least writing that I would have been there. (Heck, if I weren't moving around so much due to internships and such, I'd have gone anyway.)
I just need to give applause to Gargoyles. It was beautiful, cool, and fun, truly a jem of animation. The Shakespearian references layered over deep characterization and even deeper character -development- truly light my heart afire. I'm aching for this DVD. I can garantee that, unless all the copies are snapped up in, say, the first week of them hitting the market (which I honestly hope for, since that will likely mean more would be on the way), I will get it. I have two other friends who will do the same, -almost- as much to show support for the incredible talent (and any applicable forces of managerial mojo) involved in producing Gargoyles as to have DVD-quality sound and picture as opposed to our moldering, commercial-break-laiden, misordered VHS's.
Gargoyles, is, in my humble opinion, the single best animated series American animation has to offer. Gargoyles is better than the sublime Batman animated series and the inspiring X-Men Evolution, both of which have been released on DVD already. It has also done what I previously considered the impossible in unseating Tale Spin from the pinnacle of my Disney Pantheon of Good Shows.
Gargoyles didn't find me until long after it had stopped airing. In fact, you might say I walked in just in time to see this pivotal moment in its growth. I just wanted you to know, Greg, that I will be voting with my wallet (possilby twice) to get Gargoyles the recognition it deserves.
To Greg, and to all who gave Xantos, Goliath, Brooklyn (and of course, PUCK!) life, thank you.
PS, an actual question:
Just how "voluntary" is stone sleep? You mentioned in a recent (well, two years ago by now) response that sunlight was "a powerful psychological cue". Could a gargoyle fight off stone sleep for as long as (or longer than) thirty seconds? Would this have any short- or long-term side effects?
Also, sometimes gargoyles roar after waking, others not. I take this to mean that it is semi-voluntary, like yawning and/or stretching. Is it more or less voluntary than yawning? Will some circumstances make a gargoyle less or more likely to roar upon waking?
Thanks for all the kind words. Did you get the two DVD sets? Did you make it to Vegas last summer? Are you coming to Valencia this summer? Have you pre-ordered the comic book? Yep, there's a lot for a Gargoyles Fan to be thankful for these days. Hope you and your friends are taking advantage of all that and SPREADING THE WORD!!!
Now to your questions...
1. It's not particularly voluntary. Yes, a garg can hold off stone sleep for a few seconds. Maybe even thirty or so, but not much more than that. No after effects that I can think of.
2. Roaring is optional, I suppose, but it's also common sense to the point of being ingrained. You wake up and you don't know what it is you're facing, so your ROAR to scare the bejeepers out of whatever might be threatening you.
Greg,
To add a little more to what I was sort of rambling about the other day I would like to say a few more things.
First I think it is really cool that you continue to push the boundaries of the show. I am well aware that the target audience was boys ages 6-11, but I think the mark you hit was seriously more for adults.
I know there certainly were elements that made it a kids show, but there was always that sub element of adult themes, thank you.
I think, once again the choice to make Lexington gay was a bold and good move. I think he represents the homosexual community in a good way, not the stereotypical, blatantly affeminant sort of way. Not that that isn't a norm in the segment of the population but not all homosexuals are like that.
Thanks again.
Sincerely,
Justin
I don't have much to add to my response to your last post.
Our central target was boys 6-11, but that was never the sum total of our aim. We tried, and I believe succeeded, in writing the show on multiple levels so that there was something for boys and girls and men and women. Kids of all ages and species.
GREG WROTE:
Saw RETURN OF THE KING. And I really, really liked it, although I didn't really, really like the first hour. Overall, I enjoyed the first two movies more, but don't get me wrong. I'm not comparing this to the awful Return of the Jedi, at all. I still loved it, and I can't wait to see the extended version.
The movie that actually caught me by surprise was PETER PAN. I really liked it a lot. It's so melancholy and bittersweet. Peter looked terrific (and was about 50/50 on the acting). Some things may have been a bit on the head, but it's Neverland, not Subtletyland. Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's a better movie than LOTR, but I thought the reviews of Pan were way harsh.
KELLY RESPONDS:
I had the opportunity to see both RETURN OF THE KING and PETER PAN on Christmas day. Excellent films that fulfilled my expectations and left me feeling quite content - despite the fact that I cried my eyes out during a few touching scenes (I'm such a sap). I look forward to purchasing the boxed set when it's released but I'm trying to stop myself from buying all of those irresistible marketing tie-ins like script-books, action figures, One Ring and sword replicas etc.
And PETER PAN holds a special place in my heart, as it was the very first story my mother ever read to me in bed as a child (I still have the tattered and faded book my mother read from, tucked away in my closet), and I grew up watching the televised stage production with Mary Martin as Peter (yes, I'm THAT old). I thought Jeremy Sumpter did an excellent job in the role of Peter, and Rachel Hurd-Wood was quite charming. I agree the critics were too harsh, but I also felt slightly uncomfortable with the not-so-subtle sexuality between Peter and Wendy, and the odd pedophilic vibe I got between Captain Hook and his delicious little prey, Wendy. But I still loved the film and will probably buy the DVD when it's released.
Greg, if you had Peter Jackson's 300 million plus budget and could make any movie you wanted, what would it be? A medieval epic (a la Gargoyles or Robin Hood), a modern-day drama (i.e. House of Sand and Fog) or a gritty, futuristic tale (Blade Runner, The Matrix)?
It might be hard to resist doing a Gargoyles movie. But if I REALLY had carte blanche, I think I'd do it in animation, not live-action.
Indeed, I have many pet projects I'd love to do in both Animation and live action. And frankly, I wouldn't need 300 million to do them. Carte blanche and fifteen million would allow me to make any animated movie I wanted.
As to the genre, I've got all sorts of notions in all sorts of genres. It's hard, in a vaccuum to pick out the one I'd do first.
It´s about the Random stuff... on Thursday, December 18, 2003. I know it will be a while until the time you read this...but anyway..I love The lord of the rings: Return of the King and I understand you! I was Dying to see it. And its a fantastic adaptation.
By the way, I love the idea of "*I'd like to see a music video from Goliath's POV -- but featuring Elisa -- of "Amazing". (I think that's the title. I'm not sure who the artist or band is.) " And the band is Aerosmith (My fauvorite)
It's been so long, I can't even summon the song into my head, though I remember posting about it.
not a question, just a compliment!
great job......... the storyline of Gargoyles.
I wish eternal damnation upon the bastards who have canceld the show.
Uh... thanks.
Greg,
the show is great. Really great. It remembers me "Dungeons and Dragons", another really great show (first and second year, because third was horrible). Michael Reaves made both. But gargoyles is just...incredible, the personality of the people and gargoyles are more real ( changes all the time!), its the real world. I think another show like gargoyles will take a long time to be made...
Thank you , Greg. I really wish when you ready this ( I think this will take 3 years, more or less) the show will be back , with another amazing episodes.I really wish.
Thanks.
Mr. Weisman,
I was perusing the Hudson archives and read your ramble on "Long Way 'Til Morning," where you invited response to the episode. Of all the episodes of Gargoyles (the REAL episodes, not those GC episodes that made no sense), this is one I remember most vividly as one of my absolute favorites. Rarely do we get to see the elderly character in a series be the hero, or have the spotlight on him for almost every second of the show. It was refreshing to see Hudson as the hero and not some doddering old coot who needs to be saved by his fellows.
The things I remember most about the episode are the good lines the characters had. Some of my favorites from Demona are: "Ciao." (Ms. Sirtis's callous tone there just made it work), and "Your courage is admirable, but ultimately futile." Mr. Asner had the best one's, though: "Just dreaming old dreams, I guess." "I can face her. I just can't beat her." And, of course, his speech to Demona at the end about growing old and waiting.
The flashback scenes are great, too. The planting of the Archmage and that whole plotline was brilliant, as was the Prince's faux pas on "the gargoyles will get you," and the whole snowball effect that had on Katharine.
But, again, above all else, Hudson stands out in this episode. He's not sitting at the clocktower watching TV with Bronx--he's in his element, both in the past and in the present, as a warrior. "He favors speed over stealth, which could mean he has traps waiting for us." Brilliant. His heading underground where neither he or Demona could use their wings--clever.
The whole episode just struck me as excellent because it showed Hudson as a competent, wise, and experienced warrior. I don't know...maybe because my grandfather seems like he knows how to do anything under the sun I took more to Hudson craftiness.
Well...those are just my thoughts. Kudos on one of MANY great episodes.
Thanks. Working with Hudson was always fun, and working with Ed Asner continues to be a joy. (He just did a voice for me on multiple episodes of WITCH.)
Of course, it was the Archmage's appearance in "Long Way To Morning" that inspired the plotlines to follow. At the time, we didn't know we were laying pipe for the future. Frankly, it was the amazing performance of David Warner that made us feel like we HAD to bring the character back.
A long time ago, you asked if anyone knew the origin of the "eye in the pyramid" symbol for the Illuminati/Masons/etc. Since I saw no update on it, I thought I would give you the short version (the long version would take several pages).
The pyramid represents knowledge, taken directly from ancient Egyptian mythology (before the whole "Pharoah's Tomb" fiction was created) but the pyramid in the symbol is truncated, representing lost/suppressed knowledge. The eye is the "All-Seeing Eye" (God) and placed in a triangle above the truncated pyramid to point out that no amount of official supression will destroy the knowledge forever, it's still out there to be rediscovered.
The second layer of interpretation is part of where the Illuminati as "bad guys" comes from: they were "enemies" of the authorities throughout history (some rare exceptions) because they had managed to retain the missing/forgotten knowledge, and the authorities (who were seen to not be wise/good enough to be given access to the knowledge/power) were jealous and either wanted the knowledge for themselves or wanted these "outlaw" groups killed, or preferably both. The official church declared them to be Satan-worshippers; these groups considered themselves to be the true believers of God and the church to be full of Satan-worshippers (or at least selfish opportunists). So, the symbol shows that they believed in God (in spite of what the authorities claimed) but also shows their own recognition that they would always be in danger from outsiders who would try to supress the "truth".
Your "grey-area" approach to Duval and the Illuminati is a great way of showing that, in spite of what we are often taught, black and white are ALSO in the eye of the beholder...
Thanks for the info. This stuff fascinates me.
This isn't a question, but more a comment, perhaps a suggestion. It's unbelievable the amount of people who post what essentially are usless questions. Ones you know they already know and are just trying to be smartass about or one's who are obviously too lazy to look it up for themselves. It annoys me to no end. And I don't want to signal out anyone so I won't list the names or questions they ask, you know who they are and they know who they are. A best example is asking what a certain character's name is. How hard is it to look it up? There are 100s of Gargoyles sites. Have you ever thought about having someone extra to weed through the unimportant and "cute" questions just so you can get to the important ones that serious people really want to know? I think if the person is too lazy to at least make an attempt at finding it out for themselves, then perhaps they shouldn't be posting in the first place. I think if you really want to know something, you look it up first and ask questions later. Not to mention there IS a comment room here, that is pretty much a message boards for fans to discuss the show. Why not ask questions like, "What's the name of the young white haired gargoyle?", there? I think a lot of these people are just out to pull your leg, thinking themselves cute or just so desperatly want attention, they'll take anything they can get. It's just a pet peeve of mine and it wastes time for you and for us, the serious fans and readers. I just wanted to make a small rant. I hope I didn't waste your time. ;-)
You did a little, actually. But that's okay. I admire the irony.
Anyway, as many of you know, Gore and Todd and I have plans to revise the way we do business on this site, with Todd and maybe a couple other people answering already answered questions.
But Gorebash hasn't had time to implement the new system. Someday, though...
Um Hi. I saw a post about why we like gargoyles? and i wanted to answer..
I like all sorts of 'dark' things i read lots of vampire and witch books and your cartoon was awesome when i was little and i think it was a nice way of introducing those concepts to me. I wish there were more new episodes, and that the show was on lots more. I loved the charicters most of all, i still do. I used to sit in front of the tv and then during the commercials i would pretend i was part of the show then when it came back on i would sit down again. My favorite charicter of all was Brooklyn, he always reminded me of myself, and i would just like to thank you for creating the show.
Twin_Kitten
kittin@epals.com
You're very welcome. I know it's been almost two years since you posted this, but I hope you've stuck around, grabbed up a DVD, and are waiting for the next DVD and the comic series. I say all this not simply to separate you from hard earned cash, but because if you loved the show, it's currently a pretty exciting time to be a gargoyle fan.
Hope to see you at a Gathering too.
Excuse, I have mistake forgive with forgoten.
I knew there was something wrong there. Thanks for the correction.
Dear mister weisman,
I'm a fan of your serie "gargoyles" and I tell this with admiration and respect.
Your behaviour with some fans is not very kind, I know you must be very tired to stand some fanatics of the serie, but remember, the word fan not always mean fanatic.
I Know, I Know, you are always answering the same question one time, and another and another and another, I understand it's must be very dull and boring, but understand us, we don't know the other fans´ questions and your answers, and we want to know all the details and tiny things of the serie.
Because is very possible that Disney will forgive the serie and we like to know , for example, what happen with Thailog or maybe Angela and Demona would be friends someday?, and only you have all the answers of our question, please, treat us with more respect and kind.
Remember, Disney could have forgive you, but we don't.
With all my respect and greatings from a group of fans of Spain (But this letter have been writing for only one person)
The evil forces and a group of fans.
Pd: forgive me if you didn't understand this letter, but my English is not very good ^_^.
I'm not sure if you're using the word "forgive" correctly. But maybe you are.
I have tried, always, to treat the fans with respect. I'll admit that I have slipped on occasion. Gotten cranky. But I do believe those slips are relatively rare, and I like to think I have an excellent relationship with the fandom at large and with most fans individually (fanatical or otherwise).
I apologise if I've given any other impression beyond the obvious: I am tremendously gratified that they have worked so hard to keep the show alive in their hearts and mine.
So please do forgive me, if I've trespassed.
Hi, Greg it's Lovel again. I wanted to apologize to accidently posting twice. I didn't know how it happened. So I wanted to apologize for making you read my ramblings twice,*snicker*. With that said, I guess I want to add something that I forgot to put in my other posts.
It REALLY irritates me when fans refer to the Wyvern and Ishimura Clans as "GENERIC" Gargoyles. Being a intense Biology nut I fully see the differences between the two clans, and being a Anthropology student I can see the clear differences between the two clan's cultures. I see nothing similar about the Ishimura and Wyvern clans. I appreciate each distinct curve of their horns and the beauty of their wings, and tails. Sorry to post all that I just figured that it probably bothers other fans,lol. Thanks for everything.
--Lovel
I tend to agree with you.
Hi Greg, this is my first time posting a question am almost reluctant to do it because of the amazing volume of questions that all the other Gargoyles fan post. I guess it's just an amazing testament to the show.
First off I wanted to express my love and admiration of the show. I have been a fan since the show first came out and I was about 10 or 11. The best part of watching the show now is that all the subtle nuansces and social commentary that was slightly lost on me as a child is fully realized and appreciated in me as a college student.
Second, I wanted to say that I spent the last 3 days LITERALLY reading all the archives I could to find an answer to my questions....Some I found answers to and some I thought up as I was reading some of the other questions posted by other fans. Which is why I wanted to say what a wonderful resource this website is...so having said that it prompts this announcement "THANK YOU GORE FOR HOSTING THIS SITE!!"
Now, on to the questions. Okay you are probably going to flip when you read this one....yes it is yet another "Gay Gargoyle" question...so sue me I'm gay and it's a topic that staunchly interests me. I wanted to ask if a Gay Gargoyle would imprint upon his or her mate just as a Straight Gargoyle would? I only ask this question because I figured the answer would be "yes" since in all your other responses about Gay Gargoyles you indicated that there would be no difference between Gargoyles, Straight or Gay. But I figured that since this is your universe and that since you are the author of said universe that it would be highly unethical of me to assume something without asking the creator.
Now that I got my first question out of the way, I wanted to ramble alittle of how much my appreciation of Gargoyles has grown from reading the questions in this forum. I never knew any of the subtlies that existed in the show such as the stroking of hair and horn, the tradition of not naming things, the practice of the whole clan being the Fathers and Mothers to all the rookery children, and the wonderful Wind Ceremony that you went into detail here in the forums. This all highlights the amazing differences between Humans and Gargoyles. This intensely intrests me now that I'm in college and am a Anthropology student,(yes I do realize the oddness of the situation, a Anthropology student getting a kick out of studying culture that isn't that of man). I particularly love the not naming tradtion in Gargoyle society. Both of my parents are deaf so growing up my first language was Sign Language, not English. This put me in a unique position of knowing 2 names for everything, and knowing 2 different ways of expressing my own name. One being that of my spoken English name "Lovel" and the other being the expressed gesture of my Sign Language name (which I can't even express in writing becasue it is something you have to see instead of read). So when I read your response to a ramble of one of the fans that Hudson would have been put off by the odd tradition of giving the sky a name when it already has a name, and that he would think it odd of giving himself a name since he is already known as "Friend,Father, Mentor, Old Friend etc." This delighted me when I read it since it made me reflect on how my name is not really who I am and I never identify it as "ME". When I try and think of who I am I think in adjectives, kind, friendly, smart, jolly, the last thing that comes to mind is my name. I also enjoy knowing that I can also think of myself as a gesture instead of a spoken word or a sound. Having said all of that,(thanks for putting up with it for this long), my second question would be, How would a Gargoyle refer to the great Hudson in a story? To clarify you once repied that a Gargoyle would refer to another one in a story as "The one of Broadshoulders". This made me wonder how would the clan refer to Hudson in a story. For that matter how would Golaith be refered to in 2198? Would he be refered to by his human name of Golaith or would he have a Gargoyle "name" to which they would refer?
Thank you for your time and I appreciate everything you have done for all us fans. I also want to thank you for coming up with such an amazing universe and introducing it to everyone here. Thanks
--Lovel
I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "imprinting". But most gargoyles, gay or straight, mate for life.
Hudson wouldn't have just one name in the Middle Ages. "Broadshoulders" or the like, if used by everyone, would just amount to another name.
Different individuals would refer to Hudson by different callouts when necessary, including many of the ones you named above "Old Soldier" "Mentor" etc. "Friend". Mostly relationship driven things.
But naming once initiated is contagious and addictive. Goliath is Goliath is Goliath.
GRIEF
I've been waiting for a long time to ramble on this one.
I like this episode mostly, I think, because of how it deals with death, and even the personification of that concept. Anubis' change when going through the three personae really does reflect the faces of death: it can be horrifying and gruesome (Jackal-avatar), or it can be a peaceful release (Emir-avatar), and finally, outside of those faces, it just exists as a constant part of life (Anubis).
I thought Anubis was well done (and I cannot describe how thrilled I was to hear Tony Jay's voice in GARGOYLES). Actually, Mr. Jay also played an incarnation of Death (the Grim Reaper, in this case) in an episode of DARKWING DUCK (a slightly less dignified portrayal, but a fun one). At any rate, I also thought it was cool that Anubis talked without a mouth or any outward expression. In fact, he strikes me as the type of being who really doesn't care what form/name he takes on. I could be wrong on that count, but he seems to take his office very seriously and place it above all other concerns. I, too, felt it was out of character for him when he laughed in THE GATHERING part 1.
On a tangent, here, Greg, I feel I must disagree with your description of laughter as "petty." I, for one, think laughter to be one of the best things there is in life--heck, I watched "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" last week and one of the best parts is the laughing at the end (I'll say no more for fear of spoiling it). Anubis, of course, is one who for ages has been "guardian of the gate" so he would be less likely to laugh at anything in this world (certainly not at the Banshee falling on her bum), but I still don't think that in any way diminishes the "power of laughter," if you will. Of course, I could have just been reading too much into that statement. Okay, enough out of me on that.
I was VERY surprised to see the Emir actually appear. I had always figured (as I have said in earlier rambles) that Xanatos' dealings with the Emir would be something of a running gag, always in the background of the series. Instead, he turned out to be a person with a past and an agenda all his own. I don't condone his actions here, but I do understand, and even sympathize with him. I cannot fully know his pain, that of losing a child (and I pray I never find out), but I have lost family and friends over the years, and felt the wish to turn back the clock, if only for a little bit. Tony Shaloub did fantastic work here. I especially like his one line: "To hold [my son] again...I would move Heaven and Earth with my BARE HANDS!" Indeed, he seems to be doing that. I may be wrong in assuming the Emir is Islamic, but if he is then calling up a deity of the Egyptian pantheon shows just how desperate and determined he is to regain his son.
Okay, now let's back track and start at the beginning.
I was glad to see the Pack again, though a little disappointed that Dingo wasn't among them (I was starting to find him the most interesting), but then he always did seem to be the odd one out. Coyote's new design was cool, and I was glad the head was still there (though I was puzzled, since last I saw it was smashed--now I know it's an image). My eyes widened at Hyena's line to Coyote, "Wanna make sparks fly?" That had to be one of the most sexually tilted lines I had ever heard in the series. And then there's Jackal's look at the Anubis carving. I know Jackal liked Anubis for being jackal-headed, but I sometimes wonder if the connection to death might not have sweetened the idea.
The old "hidden temple in the Sphinx" concept. I know it was at least used in an old computer game before GARGOYLES came out, but is this an idea that dates even further back?
The travelers arrive, and Angela describes the Sphinx as the world's "biggest gargoyle" (and yes, I did expect that connection to be made!).
I looked at the scene where Goliath spys on Coyote and from what I can tell the face is in the bubble. Also, Coyote and Goliath seem to press the same carvings--maybe that got fixed in later airings?
Shortly thereafter a battle ensues. Jackal and Hyena, with their prediliction for blades, are still unnerving. I love the little "Uh-oh" Elisa says before Coyote knocks her out.
One more thing about Anubis, here. It always fascinates me how he refers to death as a "boon." Actually, his lines about death really got me the first time I saw this ep. It actually made me think about the nature of death and look at it in a slightly different way.
The Pack has some nice interplay with each other in this ep. Pity it's the last we'll see of it for a while--a fact I didn't really pick up on until the second or third viewing. The Pack had always been a group (except for HER BROTHER'S KEEPER, where it was Jackal and Hyena), and them splitting up was as unthinkable to me as the Manhattan clan splitting up. But I digress....
Jackal to Coyote: "You're not exactly Mr. subtlety." And the understatement of the year award goes to.... :-)
I agree that a great opportunity was missed by not having our heroes get blasted and survive. It would have really driven the magnitude of the situation home. However...even as I think of that, I can't help but wonder if their bodies could still be damaged, which may open up a whole other can of worms. Ah well, it's all moot now.
I knew Jackal would try to take the Emir's place as Anubis' avatar. I thought it was a great job with the character design and voice mixing--not only did I like having both Anubis and his "vessel" talking at the same time, I kind of expected it. It seemed right.
Jackal-avatar's attitude and use of power are indeed chilling. Heck, by the time he ages Elisa he's doing it just for fun (she wasn't even moving to attack him). The skeletonized crocodiles were pretty eerie, but that WHOLE TOWN (obviously inhabited) being wiped out was horrifying. I had wondered for years if Emir-avatar had been able to undo that damage. Now I know that he couldn't...and that makes the whole scene all the more disturbing.
I never picked up on Jackal using the promise of reuniting the Emir with his son as Jackal's way of keeping the Emir from stopping his fun--I always took it that Jackal would kill the Emir last of all. But now the Emir's refusal to act sooner makes more sense to me.
Goliath anashamedly refers to Angela as his daughter here. He doesn't do it to her face, but still....
The Emir-avatar's design is cool, too. I especially like the soft blue eyes (as opposed to Jackal-avatar's one ghost-white eye and Anubis' glowing red eyes).
Backing up, again, I like the "black light" energy that Jackal-avatar gave off. I had always wondered how something like that would be accomplished, and this was a pretty darn good way of showing how.
Emir-avatar destroys the temple, and I remember worrying (even on the second viewing) that the Sphinx would be destroyed as well. I was also thankful that it survived. (Like Todd, I saw that "X-Men Evolution" episode, and recalled cringing when I saw missles hitting the Sphinx in the face and back).
I already knew that gargoyles aged at half the speed of humans (again, that Disney Adventures article), but it was nice to actually hear it onscreen.
And I loved that final summation by Goliath. Very poignant.
This was an episode I really loved (the title is great, too).
Glad you liked it.
I don't recall ever EVER knocking laughter in general. I think I was just referring to that moment in Gathering that really didn't work for me.
Thanks for the ramble on "Grief", Greg.
I was amused by your remark about Michael Reaves and a Batman episode that he'd written involving Egyptian elements that had gotten changed. As I'd commented in an earlier question (which you should have gotten to long before you read this response to your ramble, since it's that much before me in the queue), I'd seen an episode of "Batman: TAS" once named "Avatar" with some moments strongly evocative of "Grief", and I suspect that that was the episode that you alluded to.
I hadn't picked up the double meaning of the title (though I did recall Wolf's use of the word). Thanks for pointing it out.
I certainly wasn't surprised that Dingo was absent, after "Upgrade". I *was* surprised to see the Emir actually becoming an on-stage character, and agree with you that his role was an effective one. (Another bit that I hadn't picked up on was your remark about Jackal's semi-promise to reunite the Emir with his son was what kept him from acting earlier, and was deliberately uttered by Jackal to keep him from interfering.)
I might add that I was certainly not surprised to see your remark about "I should have had the Pack kill Goliath and Co. only to discover that they couldn't die while Anubis was trapped." (Incidentally, the situation of "While Anubis is imprisoned, nobody can die" reminds me of the Greek myth about how Sisyphus put either Hades or the death-god Thanatos - which one he imprisoned varies from which version of the story you read - in handcuffs to wriggle out of being taken away to the underworld, with the result that nobody was able to die - until Ares, fed up with the fact that the "nobody could die" business was taking all the "fun" out of war, freed his prisoner.)
Jackal becoming Anubis's avatar and causing all that devastation was one of the creepiest moments in all of "Gargoyles" for me - especially when he aged Goliath and Co. (The fate of the crocodiles was certainly chilling). I think that the fates of Hyena and Wolf served as a good "comic relief" counterbalance to it to keep it from getting too dark. (Wolf being turned into a puppy was great!)
(I can see one flaw in Jackal's plan, though; if you wipe out all other life on Earth, what do you do after that, with nobody else to torment?)
I can agree with you about the "cringe" moments over the gargoyles and the Pack destroying ancient Egyptian antiquities, and the relief that they didn't destroy the Sphinx. (It's odd, since a couple of days ago I saw an episode of "X-Men: Evolution" where there was a battle between Apocalypse and some Sentinels at the Sphinx, and I had a shuddering moment when one of the Sentinels blasted a hole in the Sphinx's back.)
And the end with Goliath hoping that the Emir was reunited with his son in the afterlife was a touching moment.
I thought so too. I think Tony Shaloub is brilliant. Monk is both hilarious and heart-breaking.
i just watched "MIA" last night. i wrote down some notes:
- first off, the English gargoyles. for years i didn't like them, i mean physically. they seemed so different from the other gargs around the world and they looked like birds, lions and horses. that really irked me, but i've gotten over it. i started to think of different reasons they look like they do, and Greg had some theories as well, so i'm ok wth it now, and frankly, they are now my favorite gargoyle race to draw. i find them really neat. i did notice that they are the only gargs we've seen whose eyes seem to be tinted when NOT glowing. Leo and Griff's eyes were tinted tannish-gold and Una's were more light blue. interesting.
- it made me sad for years that there were only three gargoyles in the English Clan. i remember thinking to myself that they were another clan that was dying out, just like the Manhattan Clan. much to my surprise and excitement, i discovered the fandom online and soon discovered a whole Clan was never seen on the show! and they are one of the more populated Clans at that! very cool.
- it always amazes me how good a likeness of Griff and Goliath those statues are... guess Leo, Una and the pilots had excellant memories.
- when the English thugs surround Elisa i think how rascist they must be against her. kinda feel sorry for them... esspecially when the gargs kick their @$$! i LOVE Angela's line, "Surely we were sent her for something more important than this..." she gets that from her mother i think,
- i remember thinking that it was weird that Angela instantly recognized Leo and Una as gargoyles. esspecially because they were robed and she had recently been tricked by Raven. plus Leo and Una look so different than most gargoyles. maybe she smelled them or something. or maybe she was somehow familiar with the idea of what English gargs looked like.
- i like how comfortable Leo and Una are around humans. so used to them. its certaintly new to not see humans running away in fear of gargs.
- good touch when Goliath transports into the 1940 sky and falls cuz he was standing up. kinda like having the rug pulle dout from under you.
- i instantly love Griff when he saves Goliath from a propellor blade and says, "You know old boy, that could've been a bit nasty!" love his accent, hes great, i love Griff!
- when Griff honors Leo and Una for "minding the store" i think about how Hudson and Bronx are always left behind and how that is honorable too.
- when Goliath and Griff take on the pilots its great animation, it reminds me of the Trio taking on the Pack's helicopter. i like these sky battles, i guess.
- every time i see Goliath's wing get shot, i cringe. "OW!" thats gotta hurt, i mean theres a hole in his wing!
- destiny really had it out for Griff, one thing after another tried to kill him. i remember i was a little afraid that Goliath would be unable to prevent his death and hjave to go back to tell Leo and Una how Griff had died. fortunatly, Goliath was smart enough to get out of the warzone and back to the 90s.
- and back in the 90s theres a reunion, but a weird and awkward one. talk about your love triangles. Una is stuck between the gargoyle she loved in her youth and has been missing for so many years and the gargoyle who has been her companion for all those years! it doesn't help that Griff and Leo are such good friends either. its an ugly situation, i think and i totally understand why Griff would want to stay with King Arthur, but thats a story for another day...
Glad you came around to liking the London clan. Maybe we can explore them more in the future...
"Although I don't know if they actually used the M.I.A. acronym as far back as WWII. I associate it with Vietnam. Does anyone else know?"
The farthest back I've seen militaries use "Missing," not necessarily "M.I.A.," on casualty lists is the Crimean War. I know the U.S. used "Missing" during the Civil War. Before then, armies had "Unclassified" casualties because it was nearly impossible to tell if someone was missing as a result of a battle, was mixed up with another unit or had gotten scared and ran from the battle.
But going back to your actual question, the acronym came about during WWI (or at least that's when the U.S. began keeping track of M.I.A. figures) and was very much used in WWII. The U.S. Department of Defense Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office's mission of recovering M.I.A.'s begins with those missing from WWII.
Probably the reason why you associate the acronym with Vietnam is because the U.S. added the acronym M.I.A.P.D. - Missing in Action Presumed Dead - to its acronym-heavy lexicon either shortly before or during Vietnam, and because the government didn't want to keep reporting PD's to the media, they more readily reported those who were M.I.A. and might be found alive (of course, they might have been reporting PD's as well and just never informed the general public about the acronym's extension).
Sobering statistic time: Of the 217,000 U.S. soldiers reported M.I.A. from WWI through Vietnam, 42% remain unaccounted for; 88,000 of those still missing are from WWII-Vietnam.
Anyway, that's the best I can do with that - maybe someone else knows more. Thanks for the ramble, I hope you have more on the way.
That's a lot, and very helpful. It's good to know that the title isn't anachronisitic to the content of the episode. Thank you.
I loved the ep. Not just to see a new clan of Gargoyles, but it brings up memories of the war stories my Grandmother told me.
Every time I watch it, I can see my Grandmother running for cover from the Nazi's as a young girl. And then I can see my Grandfather shooting them down. Every time I watch "M.I.A." I think of my Grandfather very fondley.
To me, my grandfather was, and still is a good 'ole Canadian war hero.
Thanks a million, Greg!
You're welcome. And thanks to your grandfather. We all owe him a debt.
M.I.A.
Ahhhh...a new ramble! Glad to hear your thoughts on the episodes again, Greg!
Anyway, as soon as I saw Una and Leo I kind of figured them to be gargoyles--I don't know why, exactly, but it just seemed so obvious. I love the idea of the magic shop, too--I know it's the type of shop I'd like to visit.
While I'm talking about the London clan (or at least, the three that we've met), I just want to talk about their designs. Not just their physical designs mind you--their clothes and such as well. I'll admit, I didn't know much about "heraldic animals" at the time I saw this, so I didn't quite pick up that layer of it. I still liked it, though--helped make them unique, even from Raven's illusion clan. The feathered wings were also quite beautiful. Their tails, though, don't look like they would be as strong as those in the other clans we have seen. Griff's and Leo's maybe, but I doubt Una would be able to wrap her tail around someone's gun and jerk it from their grasp. Their attire is similarly unique, with them wearing quasi-medieval armor and dresses (I especially like Una's dress; very elegant). Griff's is different, yet still evocative of armor, which IMO makes him seem more "modern" than his cohorts. Leo and Una's cloaks are nice, and color-coded as well--green for Leo, violet for Una. Other small things: Leo's eyes seem to have a yellowish tint while Una's have a blue one, Leo's mane is tied back in a pony tail (never noticed that before...). And, even after your ramble, Greg, I look at Griff and cannot see a bit of Foghorn Leghorn in him.
Okay, long digression. Anyway, seeing Leo and Una's coldness to the plight of the man from the street made me feel a little cold to them myself. Leo seems to be a bit more aware than Una is though. By that I mean, he's the one who looks out the window and says "There goes the neighborhood." This sort of thing leads me to believe that Leo's final "revelation" in ACT 3 is something that he's been pondering over for quite some time. Sure, he still doesn't do anything, but I can't help feeling there's something there.
The weary travelers arrive in London, and spot the memorial. I instantly recognized Goliath's statue and became intrigued, as for Griff's...I think I had some vague recollection of his portrait, but I didn't really dwell on it.
Elisa apologizes to the cabby for the "American money." It's a little touch, but I really like it.
Then the thugs show up. I think I've finally figured out the actors who did the voices of the three who talked:
Jeff Bennett--Baldy.
Neil Dickson--Red Mohawk.
Gregg Berger--Big Guy with Torn Green Shirt.
(I could be wrong, though...)
Anyway, the gargs show up and make short work of them (I especially love Angela's disdain over her foe). Leo and Una arrive on the scene, and Goliath (and this audience member) start to become confused. Elisa, noticing the growing crowd, suggests that everyone go inside the shop.
When it comes up that Goliath met the London clan in 1940, I remembered the "Previously on..." segment with Goliath saying he's going to make sure nobody uses the Gate again, and kind of figured out what would happen.
Maybe I really am cold, but I don't feel much sympathy towards Leo and Una at this point. Even in hindsight, I still feel cold. They don't even bother to listen to Goliath's story--I would have thought the mention of "being frozen in stone hibernation" would have at least piqued their curiosity in some way. Instead, they just feel like doling out punishment--even if it means shackling up an innocent third party in the dungeon for no other reason than their association with Goliath. I never noticed the parallel between Una and Demona before you mentioned it, Greg, but I definitely see it.
I didn't think Goliath's "inner monologue" was terribly awkward. I mean, Matt Bluestone, a supporting character, got pretty much a whole episode to do it. Who are we to begrudge the series lead just one line.
I like Griff's reaction to Goliath's "You saved my life--it was suppossed to work the other way around." I also like Goliath's tentative "Pleased to meet you" when he "first" meets Leo and Una.
Back on the London Clan designs again--I really liked how the artists aged them (or "youthened" them as the case may be). Lines on the face, the grey in Leo's hair. Also the voice actors did a good job (I especially liked Sarah Douglas).
I never heard the name of Douglas Bader before this episode. And even then I didn't know he was a real person (nor how exceptional he was) until I read about it in one of your responses to something. I'm glad you got the chance to meet someone like that (hell, you got to go to DISNEYLAND with someone like that--that's got to be an honor). Even in this ep, he was the one who stood out, and (knowing who he is now) it makes his dogfight with "the Skull" all the cooler.
Funny you should mention using the Goliath/Una/Leo/Griff scene in your voice seminars, Greg--I remember reading that scene in the one you held at the Gathering 2001. I was Goliath, as I recall (very hard trying to follow in Kieth David's footsteps), and Crispan Freeman was Griff. What a fun time!
I like how Goliath doesn't say a definite "Yes, let's fight" or "No, stay here" but just states a simple truth. He's trying to stay out of trouble, of course, but it also just seems, to me, like the most intelligent and even-handed thing to say. And in the next 55 years, Leo and Una apparantly twisted the whole darn thing around in their heads....
Leo expresses some doubt even at this point, asking if Griff thinks less of him and Una for not going out to fight. I like the arm clasp, too.
By this point I had definitely realized that Una and Griff were an item this far back. I also kind of guessed that during the interrum (sp?) she and Leo got together.
The Battle of Britain. I had never made the connection between the wee lad running with his sister, and the old cab driver in the present. Makes the scene even cooler now, though.
Nor, I must shamefacedly admit, did I single out the skull-and-crossbones plane ("the Skull" as I have already called him) as unique. I feel like an idiot now though--it just seems so obvious. Heck, even after the pilot's gone the PLANE continues to be a threat; the last thing Goliath and Griff have to escape. It's an old trick--you have a lot of similar enemies (planes, in this case) you give one a distinguishing (sp?) mark to set it apart and mark it as the "alpha enemy" (kind of like Stripe in "Gremlins.")
Speaking of gremlins, I kind of like the connection with the gargoyles (come to think of it, I always saw Lexington as being gremlin-like--greenish-brown with a prediliction for tinkering and all that). I also like that Bader notices them, and instead of being frightened, actually becomes a sort of ally.
The "no-dying" rule...I have to admit I get kind of sick of that sometimes. Several other animated shows I've seen (western animated) actually managed to have planes explode and no parachutes shoot out. Heck, at least they should have had "the Skull" be stuck in his plane. (And maybe I'm sadistic, but I would have liked a shot of his screaming face just before his plane crashed....)
Goliath's wound. Ouch. I still say that every time I see him get hit. He still manages to pull off some great ariel manuevers on that injured wing, though.
And talk about a tough time getting home. First they're nearly shot out of the sky by friendly fire, then a building nearly falls on them, then a truck nearly hits them (and rudely interrupts Goliath while he's speaking).
And finally Goliath realizes what we the audience already knew--that time is immutable--and to avoid the final danger ("the Skull's" plane) Goliath sends both he and Griff back to the future (pun intended). Pretty much what I expected would ultimately happen.
Leo and Una look in on their captives in the basement (the fact that Elisa and the rest are in chains lessened my respect for them another notch), and after Elisa figures out what Goliath's plan is, both of the London gargoyles pause. Una recovers and continues to rant and rail against Goliath, while Leo closes his eyes and realizes the truth. I love Leo's speech here. And how he admits that while protecting their home may have been "the right thing to do" it's still their own guilt they've been feeling. I find this scene even more fascinating with the revelation that Una is the leader of the London clan. A leader is a person, too, with all the foibles (even Goliath shows that from time to time).
Goliath and Griff show up and Griff experiences major culture shock. I love the punk playing the gameboy--he just walks right by these two huge, winged monsters and doesn't even notice. In fact, Griff is the one who nearly faints (into the path of an approaching car). I just love Goliath's "Let's not start that again." Keith David just delivers it so well.
The reunions commence. I already started warming up to Leo and Una after the cellar, but now it really is great to see the joy on their faces. Griff is also joyful, but it's easy to sense a bit of awkwardness as well.
Goliath tries to explain the time loop, and Elisa does the "smile, nod" thing and asks for the explanation just one more time. "And take it slow."
The thugs pester the "foreigner" again--it wasn't until now that I realized they were racists as well--and then find themselves reaquainted with the fact that there are people out there even more different from them. Leo and Una kick two of them away (and Una has HOOVES--triple OUCH!), and stand proudly...in front of a crowd of humans. I thought that was rather interesting. I especially like the shopkeeper (the guy in the apron). He has his arms folded almost as if in pride.
Well, there's my ramble (and a long one, too). Can't wait for your next one (though I may have to--but I'll do so gladly).
I still use that Leo/Una/Griff/Goliath scene, because it illustrates the point of "intention/motivation" so well.
Great Ramble!
Wow! A new ramble! This is the best Columbus Day present that I've ever had! (Actually, it's the only Columbus Day that I've ever had, but it was still a very pleasant surprise).
I really liked "M.I.A." and still do. A major reason is that it was set in London and I'm a Anglophile (particularly since I spent a lot of my boyhood in England, from between the time that I was 9 to the time that I was almost 13). Plus it was a time travel episode involving a bit of English history (the Battle of Britain), and on top of all that, I really liked Griff. I found him a great character.
I found your vision of Macbeth and Shakespeare visiting the Mystic shop together a delightful one (even if you don't see it as having literally happened in the Gargoyles Universe). I considered it appropriate that the London gargs be shopkeepers, on account of Napoleon's famous description of the British as "a nation of shopkeepers" (which you even alluded to in your ramble). (Of course, I've sometimes wondered if Napoleon might have reconsidered his dismissal of the British after those setbacks that he received from Lord Nelson and the Duke of Wellington.) And they show themselves to be further "anglicized" by even having tea! (I liked the little touch of Una apologizing for the absence of sugar on account of rationing.)
I've sometimes wondered what the London public's response was to the gargoyles' memorial statue; since they didn't know then that gargoyles were real, it must have seemed to the bulk of them like - say, raising a World War One monument to the Angels of Mons.
I also thought that the racist thugs in this episode were almost the English equivalent to the street thugs in "Awakening Part Three", "Avalon Part One", and "Hunter's Moon Part One". Rather appropriate that they'd be racists, as a parallel to the Nazis in the 1940 sequence (and definitely fitting in with Griff's comment of "The more things change, the more they stay the same.")
I hadn't even realized the similarity between Demona and Una before you mentioned it.
One thing that amused me about the episode was Leo and Una's response towards Goliath's using the Phoenix Gate - just a mild stare. (Maybe it's not so surprising, given that if you work in a magic shop, you start getting used to things.)
I liked your description of Griff, and was amused by your description of him as a "Robin Hood of the 1940's". It strikes me as particularly appropriate in light of his later on team-up with King Arthur; after all, Arthur and Robin Hood are the two leading "legendary heroes" of Britain. While a literal team-up between them in the Gargoyles Universe doesn't strike me as probable (I assume that Robin Hood is long since dead by the present-day portion of the series), Griff can serve as an equivalent to him. (Of course, T. H. White did manage to pull off a literal team-up between Arthur and Robin Hood in "The Sword in the Stone".)
I hadn't known about Douglas Bader before I saw "M.I.A." (I recall that it was Stormy who first informed me about Bader being a real historical figure when I joined the Gargoyles fandom at Station 8, back in late 1996 and early 1997). I really liked him in the episode, especially his being another human who could see gargoyles for what they really are (my favorite moments involving him being his saying "They're real, and they're on our side!" and he and Griff giving each other the thumbs-up after he shoots down the Nazi pilot). And I enjoyed "Reach for the Sky" (it even brought back memories of my boyhood in England, even though they were from the late 70's), after you recommended it in early 2001.
Goliath's line "human problems become gargoyle problems" is a favorite of mine; indeed, a close inspection of the series (as I've said before) shows how true it was. For one thing, we've seen how all those struggles for the succession to the Scottish throne between 971 and 1057 impacted the gargoyles in Scotland (the alliance between Prince Malcolm and Hudson, the flight of the eggs to Avalon after Constantine's usurpation, the rise of the Hunters, Macbeth and Demona's short-lived alliance). And it still goes on in the modern world, where Castaway's vengeful war on the clan arose from a human problem (he shot his brother and couldn't take the responsibility for it, so he goes after the gargs instead to take it out on them).
Another favorite bit of mine; Goliath tells Una that he won't let anything happen to Griff "this time", and Una puzzles over the "this time" part.
Since (as I mentioned in my comments on "Avalon Part Two") I've been working on a fantasy novel for some time now (begun even before "Gargoyles" came out) which uses the same rules for time travel as "Gargoyles" did (that you can't change the past because your travels there are already part of it), which were there even before "Gargoyles" came out as well, I had no difficulty following the time loop. (One reason why I'm grateful for having come up with those rules for time travel independently before the series aired - it made the Phoenix Gate episodes easier to follow!)
Your comment at the end about Leo remembering "what his business is supposed to be" reminded me of the scene in Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" where Scrooge tells Marley's ghost "But you were always a good man of business, Jacob", and Marley replies "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
At any rate, it's great to have a new ramble again. Let's hope that there's more in the weeks to come.
Well, I've slacked off again recently, but I think we made it through Future Tense.
Great ramble back, btw.
The other day, I was asked a question about sources for Oberon. I didn't know the answer, but I received this e-mail from site moderator, Todd Jensen:
Dear Greg,
In "Ask Greg" today, curousity asked you if there were any other sources besides Shakespeare for Oberon as "king of the faries [sic]". You replied, "Not off the top of my head." I hope that I'm not presuming here in e-mailing you, but I have found at least three works beside "A Midsummer Night's Dream" that portray Oberon in that role, both of which are early enough that they count as "primary sources".
One is a late medieval French work about one of Charlemagne's knights, entitled Huon of Bordeaux (written in the 15th century, and translated into English by a certain Lord Berners in 1548 - early enough, in other words, that Shakespeare could have used it as a source for Oberon). In it, Huon befriends Oberon in his adventures, and the latter becomes Huon's guardian, almost a "fairy godfather". (Oberon is portrayed in it as around three feet tall due to a curse placed upon him in his infancy, and as the son of Julius Caesar and Morgan le Fay!) At the end of the story, Oberon even brings Huon to Avalon and formally abdicates in favor of Huon, declaring him ruler over the "faerie-folk"; a bit of trouble develops, however, when King Arthur arrives at the gathering and protests, saying that if any human should be ruling over Avalon, it should be he himself rather than a relative newcomer like Huon. Oberon angrily tells Arthur that he has chosen Huon for his successor, is not going to change his mind, and even threatens to curse Arthur by transforming him into a werewolf if he doesn't accept it. Huon at this point steps in as a peacemaker, to say that he doesn't think that he could rule Avalon on his own and suggests that he and Arthur act as co-rulers. Oberon and Arthur both agree to this, after which Oberon peacefully dies and Arthur and Huon are crowned in his stead.
Another non-Shakespeare "primary source" involving Oberon is Michael Drayton's Nimphidia, which has Oberon ruling over the "fairies" as well - and wedded here to Queen Mab! (According to the research that I've done on fairy mythology, Titania appears to have been Shakespeare's invention as opposed to a pre-existing legendary figure, though Oberon and Puck both predated him.)
A third is Edmund Spenser's The Faerie Queene, which presents Oberon as the former ruler over "Fairyland", now deceased, with his daughter Gloriana - the Faerie Queene of the title - ruling in his stead. (Gloriana is actually an idealized Elizabeth I, meaning that the Oberon of Spenser would be an idealized Henry VIII.) The poem also includes, incidentally, King Arthur, Merlin, and Talos as on-stage characters.
THANKS, TODD!!!!
I just thought that I'd mention that I enjoyed your account of your visit to Scotland, particularly your getting to visit the Stone of Scone/Stone of Destiny and your reading "Shakespeare's Kings" (I've got a copy of the book myself, and very much enjoyed it). Thanks for sharing it with us.
You're welcome. You know it's been a bit of a while since the trip. But my father celebrated his 70th birthday recently and we all pulled out old photo albums and the like, and I just reread the Scotland journal. What a great time!
If nothing went right, you recently got a post I made by mistake that included every previous questions I asked you. But if everything went right and the webmaster got my mail, it's gone and you don't know what I'm talking about. I'm hoping for the former, so here's the question I was trying to send last time:
I'm still making my way through the archives (hey, it's been four years since I read it all) and each day brings forth new ideas to me, so forgive me for swarming you with so many posts in a row.
I've been reading several of the comments you made when seeing Gargoyles episodes with your family, and where you where interested in how we reacted at first to some events. So I decided to dig up those old memories and list a few key moments from the show where you (and your staff) managed to really surprise me.
Deadly Force:
This one surprised the hell out of me. When Broadway fires the gun and we hear silence, I was certain that this was a fake-scare. I mean, one of the show's hero shooting another one? Get real! And then I saw Elisa on the floor. And not just lying there with no sign of injury like is often shown in cartoons with serious accident, but resting in a pool of her own blood! If there ever was a moment where I finally took for granted that Gargoyles was a cartoon far beyond any other in terms of sophistication, that was it. And even better, we got that from Disney? Damn, I wish they'd take that kind of risk again for a TV series...
The Edge:
The opening scene where Xanatos, responding to Owen's offer to pretend to lose, replies "I'd fire you if you did". Almost any other cartoon (or live action show for that matter) would have had the villain either beat up or berate his underling for daring to beat him. You just expect it, as it's one of the most popular stereotype on TV. At this point, I still didn't know enough about Xanatos to expect that from him. It's also a defining moment where I also realized that Xanatos wasn't your ordinary bad guy. I don't think he ever really surprised that much afterward.
A Lightouse In The Sea Of Time:
Having Xanatos shown as the one responsible for the theft at first was actually refreshing. You don't know how many shows I've seen where even for very obscure reasons the right villain is always suspected right away, or how a mostly forgotten villain will suddenly be mentionned for no reason at all just to be revealed as being the brains behind the evil scheme of the day.
Maybe producers feel they don't have time to waste on a false lead, or that it's better to give the upcoming villain some introduction, no matter how clumsy it might seem.
Outfoxed:
When we meet Preston Vogel, there was an immediate alarm in my mind. We get another executive assistant type-guy who happens to look exactly like Owen? Can you say lazy Character Model re-use? It felt very cheap, and even though the rest of the episode was good, that particular detail always bugged me. That is, until several episodes down the road, we get to...
The Gathering:
First off, the scene where Petros comments on Vogel and Owen's ressembleance was hilarious. At first, I thought it was only a bit of self-derision, being aware the animators hadn't been very subtle about Vogel's character model, until Puck tells us Vogel was the inspiration for Owen. Great stuff.
And while Oberon was wasting his energy fighting the force field, I kept yelling "Just get in form the underside, it's not protected dummy!". It always seemed stupid in cartoons and comics when nobody ever thinks to go UNDER the blasted force field. Imagine my surprise when our favourite lord and master does just that.
I'm sure there are other instances where the Gargoyles staff played on our expectations as an audience. It gives the series a much more polished feel, that you were quite aware of what we might think and expect and deliberately used that to your advantage as often as possible to surprise us.
We tried. HARD. I'm glad the effort paid off -- at least for you. Thanks for the kind words.
Hello yet another time Greg! Sorry to flood you with questions as of late but keep fate, as I'm running out of things to ask you.
1. This one's simple and concerns the Children of Oberon.
Almost everyone uses Children of Oberon and Fae interchangeably. But after going through the archive for said beings, you once mentionned that Fae (or is it Fey? No one seems to agree on the spelling) are only one particular group of Oberon's Children akin to the Norse or African pantheon.
I'm not really knowledgeable in myths and legends, so could you tell me who the Fey are, with example from the show? I assume (perhaps or should I say probably wrongly) that it simply represents another pantheon, maybe the Anglo-Saxon one (is it Anglo-Saxon if I'm refering to England, Scotland, Ireland and other countries nearby) in which case, Puck, Oberon and Titania might be a part of it, being quite ingrained in English litterature.
But then again, what do I know?
2. This one's not a question but a personal comment, so I can get away with it not being on the same subject :) . It just dawned on me that by creating such a complex and (in itself) realistic universe with Gargoyles, you ran the risk of the viewers not "getting" many of the subtleties of the show, its universe and characters.
With your average TV show, things are often very clear. Heroes, while hardly perfect, are almost always morally right, while bad guys, which are not always purely evil persons, are almost always despisable no matter how they try to justify themselves. You rarely see a character that can't basically be classified as "good" or "evil", or to use more appropriate terms, morally "right" or "wrong".
Also, most of the time, what you see of a character on screen is a pretty accurate representation of who that person is and what they do all the time. So if someone is always seen giving money to the poor and never seen doing anything reprehensible, you assume that person is caring and generous. It never dawns on you that the man in question might actually beat up his wife everyday, because it wouldn't "fit" with the image shown to you. Yet it would not be impossible, as people are known to have very selective values sometimes. He might feel bad for those less fortunate while thinking that "disciplining" his wife is the right thing to do for a husband. Like I said, such is rarely the case, and what is shown is often intended to be representative of the whole truth.
And finally, things are often easily explained in most TV shows. The villain did this because of that, the aliens invaded for such reason, etc.
What am I getting at? That a lot of the questions you get at Ask Greg are due to the above. Although the fans recognize and live the show for its maturity and above-average (and that's putting it lightly) complexity, they fail to realize that things in the Gargoyles universe, just like in real life, don't have easy answers.
The seemingly benign Weird Sisters lost a large part of the popular vote when it seemed all their interventions were geared for the sole purpose of revenge. Yet, you said yourself that the Sisters have many aspects, with vengeance and fate being a part of them. We at first ASSUMED they were completely (or close to) benign, and then we changed our perception to one where they are only after revenge. And yet, like you said, things aren't that simple, and we STILL don't know much about who the Sisters really are. The fate part might play a larger role later on, or they could yet reveal another part of their identity. In the end, they are complex characters who cannot be summed up in a few sentence, which is what most people seem to want.
Oberon is another victim of this. I admit that I too, thought he was a big arrogant jerk, whom Titania manipulated all the time to get what she felt was best for everyone. But like you made me realize, he has a lot of quality, the first being that he cared enough about mortals and how his Children dealt with them to force them out in the real world for a millenium in the hope of them gaining some maturity. And in every story we saw with him, he always ended up being generally fair to most. He isn't perfect (and who is?); is not above pettiness and anger for example. But his behaviour, from his POV, is perfectly acceptable, if not admirable. And there is so much about him we don't know and haven't seen to be able to judge his being accurately. For all we know and despite appearances, Titania might not be THAT more mature than him.
The list goes on and on. People (and I'm guilty of that as well) want easy answers where there are only complex explainations. I hated the concept of Anubis on my first viewing of "Grief" because it seemed at first that all death on Earth were and had always been caused by the guy. It just seemed so cheap, yet I accepted it at face value because it was what was shown at the time (and like I said, we tend to not question things seemingly presented as fact). Now, thanks to you, I know better, with what little you let on about death-gods and their connection to death and such. And just like there's no solid rule as to wether the Children can go against Oberon's law. It depends on all sorts of things, like intent, bending the law itself and people's words and so long and so forth.
In short, thanks for Ask Greg, I've gotten a better perspective on the complexity of the Gargoyles universe. It doesn't mean I'm no longer looking for easy answers, but I understand why you might reply that "there are no easy answers" or "it isn't that simple", because in your mind, that's really the case. Thanks again for your patience and dedication!
1. The fans took to using the term Fae (spelled variously) as a replacement term for the admittedly awkward "Children of Oberon". Sometimes in answering questions, I have slipped and used the term as well, but I was never comfortable with it. And I'm even less comfortable in trying to define it as a subset of the Children. I haven't researched the subject enough.
2. Thank you for the kind words.
Hi Mr. Weisman.
Have you ever noticed that anonymity cant disguise transparent stupidity?
I have.
Careful, there. Because even though I tend to agree, I also think that anonymity can't disguise transparent arrogance either... ;)
I'm going to ramble and rant, so I hope you can forgive me if I confuse you or loose you along the way.
Response from Greg to Vanity's question that was posted January 6th 2002:
The notion that vengeance begets nothing more than a vicious cycle of further vengeance, is not only true but is if anything UNDERSTATED. Hardly exaggerate. One only has to look at a newspaper to see that the Montagues and Capulets of this world simply refuse to recognize this obvious, obvious FACT. It drives me insane. Your casual dismissal of the notion doesn't thrill me either. (Sorry.)
Okay, I'm going to ramble on this one a bit. Chew it up spit it out type deal.
Okay, what has always confused me about Demona is that she supposably hates humans. She wants to kill them and wipe them off the planet.
If that is true then why didn't she kill the Canmore brat when he was young and not any sort of threat to her. She could have gotten away with it to, to an extent of the imagination anyway, saying that she was protecting herself from attack and that she just happened to rake the young child's jugular vein with her talons would have worked rather nicely as an excuse. The thing is Demona knew, sort of, that Canmore would become vengeful. I mean, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out that this little bratty prince is going to go looking for revenge. He's so spoiled he still needs some one to wipe his butt! If that doesn't say"I'm going to go seeking revenge because somebody lower than me hurt my pride I don't know what does. She could have easily nipped it in the bud and there would no longer be any Hunters. Of course, you put them into the show to keep the plot rolling, but that really didn't work out did it. Of course not.
Also, Demona is suppose to be insane. She could have easily taken out the humans with her plague. Why tell Goliath that all he had to do was destroy the praying gargoyle and then she wouldn't spread the plague. Insane people are not known for having morals! What got me to was she wouldn't spread the plague because it would kill Angela. That made no sense. Demona has always tried to kill Goliath and the clan, saying that they've been corrupted by the humans. Now, the interesting thing is Angela has been the most corrupted. She was raised by humans and taught by humans, so Demona should have wanted to kill her to. Especially her. That would have definitely reinstated the fact that Demona was a villain.
Perhaps I'm looking into this too much, but Demona had the opportunity to kill a lot of people in the last thousand years and save herself a lot of heartache later. I highly doubt that anyone would defend the Canmore brat. I highly doubt anyone would have been capable of stopping her from killing the last hundred or so Hunters that came after her when Canmore didn't succeed.
However, I think I can answer this for myself I just want to know your thoughts on it.
Demona is not evil, per say, and she's hoping that the humans realize that they've treated her kind wrong and will repent, however, she doesn't see that time coming up anytime soon. She also saw that Macbeth's way of handling Canmore was better, not as fulfilling, but better. She, I suppose, was expecting Canmore to realize, later, that she had spared his life and that he might realize that it was out of the goodness of her heart not out of the fact that she couldn't kill him. Men are extremely short sighted in this fact: A woman can kill you! A beast can kill you! *shrugs* I've never understood how come it was so hard for some men to understand this.
Also, I think Demona's looking at the whole revenge thing a bit wrong. If I'm correct she's looking at it as though its her against The Hunter. She's not looking at it as though it is a war. That it is a campaign that she has to plan for. That she has to choose her ground. She needed to think things through!
I honestly have to wonder how many times she has planned out her schemes. Aside from the plague thingy, I don't think she's ever thought any of her things through to the very end. I'd have to say that she never thought about what torture Puck would put her through the night she stole The Mirror, if she had she probably wouldn't have stolen it. The one time she does plan for years upon years she hamstrings her own plan by telling Goliath how to defeat her. Stupid! Utterly stupid!
So, now I've ranted and I want to know am I right? Even to some degree.
Also, I'd like it if you read this. It was the main reason I began this rant. The book is titled: Oathblood and was written by Mercedes Lackey. One of my all time favorite authors. (I know you don't read fan fiction, quite understandable really, but I usually incorporate some aspect of her stuff into my fan fiction.) This book is a bunch of short stories pulled together and the last one is the one that inspired this rant, however, the whole book is good and I would suggest reading the other two that go with this one as well. Their titles are "Oathbound" and "Oathbreakers". They're good books and a must read for anybody because they go into details that most fantasy novels just don't go into. Especially, the ones published back in the 1980's when it was still "a man's world".
Where do I start?
Okay, let me start with the Oath-recommendations. I have found that I don't enjoy most fantasy fiction books. Isn't that surprising? It surprises me. Among other reasons, it may have something to do with envy. (I don't like admitting that, but it's true.) But I also like to keep my head generally clear of other people's ideas. I just prefer reading detective fiction, for some reason. But if I do decide to read fantasy again, I'll keep your recommendations in mind.
As for Demona... I like to believe that she is a complex character with complex motivations. That she is "human" enough to have inconsistencies. Yes, she tells herself she wants all humans dead, but in fact she isn't always ready to act on those feelings. Also, you need to keep in mind that the Demona of the late 20th century is not the same Demona of the early 11th century. She'd gone through a lot in the interrum that changed her, hardened her.
Likewise, she tells herself that she wants corrupted Gargoyles out of the way. But when push comes to shove, she's not prepared to sacrifice her daughter. So when you say things like: "That made no sense." All I can do is disagree with you and say it made sense to me.
And there are all kinds of "insane". Demona fits a definition, certainly. But of course, it's not like she's brain-dead.
Some of what you write sounds right to me -- or at least in the ballpark. But I don't agree with your assessment of Canmore really. And I don't agree that Demona could have just killed him easily as a child without repercussions. Even Macbeth felt he couldn't kill the kid without repercussions. And I tend to agree with him.
Obviously there were repercussions for NOT killing the kid too. But you roll the dice, you know?
As for Demona often if not always sewing (sowing?) the seeds of her own defeat. Why, yes, she sort of does. I don't think she consciously thought she was giving Goliath the info he needed to stop her. But she did. She's a conflicted character. I think that's what makes her so fascinating to so many people.
<<Gargoyles as well can type on keyboards and relay thought. Lexington with very little experience in terms of years and could only practice at night, was able to punch a keyboard judging by the "clicking" sound of the keyboard at nearly 129 words per minute, without looking and locate Coldstone in MacBeth's mansion. Quite impressive really.>>
Breathtaking.
<<Yet his thoughts were in English.>>
No. They were not. Look. Mental concepts (especially highly abstract concepts) do not emerge from language. It works the other way around. Concepts are formed internally. We can use language to describe them but we don't need to. That's the important distinction.
Consider the acquisition of tool use. A tool you have never used before. Lets consider something like a construction crane. You see it's controls. By experimentation you might begin to discern the function of each control. But none of this is the product of some mental narrative. Pretend you've never seen a crane before. Maybe you're an aboriginal who has never seen western devices. Better yet, pretend you're Lexington. You're a gargoyle transplanted from 10th century Scotland into contemporary America. Lexington has never seen a lever. He's never seen a gas pedal or a start button. If you sit him in a crane and point to controls and tell him what each one _is called_ what do you think it would mean to him? Nothing. Simply calling something a gas pedal gives it no context. You have not imparted anything about it's function. Lexington has no concept that these structures in front of him have functional relationships with the larger device. However, if he experiments, he can begin to observe that if he pushes the lever forward, the crane rotates clockwise. If he pulls it backwards, the crane rotates counterclockwise. He can make associations now, and he can begin to detect patterns. He can anticipate that if moving a control in one direction corresponds to one function, then moving it in the other corresponds to the opposite function. This process of observation, association and anticipation is an example of conceptual thinking. In order to understand the crane, he would have needed to think about it in concepts. Not in English.
The corollary to the computer should be clear. Lexington simply could not have considered the novelty of the computer in words. He would have no words to describe it's properties, it's function or it's nature. If you were transplanted 1000 years into the future and someone handed you a solid metal sphere and told you to use it to write words, how would you contemplate the thing they handed you? It's surface is smooth. No obvious control mechanisms. No obvious surface features of any kind. So how the devil do you write with it? Speculating about it's functionality is a highly conceptual and visual process. If handwriting and typing are both lost arts in 1000 years, then you don't even have words to describe this thing's function.
Think about how Lexington would actually interpret a computer. You have a conceptual understanding of what a keyboard is, but Lexington doesn't. He's never seen a typewriter. He's never even seen a printing press. Do you suppose that when Lexington ponders this device, his thinking takes the form of mentally spoken instructions? Instructions to do what? To type? He has no concept of typing. He would be as mystified by this thing as you would be by the sphere.
However, if he can observe the device in use, and if he can experiment with it, then just as with the crane, he can begin to infer the functional relationships of the keys. He can form a mental picture of how this device works. At that point, he's certainly free to attribute words to the concepts if he want's to communicate them to someone else, but he doesn't need to. His ability to think about the device is not contingent upon his ability to describe those thoughts linguistically.
Proponents of the idea that thought is a purely linguistic process cling to this fantasy that thought is a perpetual little personal narration providing us with instructions. As though a little person were sitting on our shoulder whispering to us. Even if this ridiculous picture of the thought process were verifiable, consider that it would be useless as a medium for thought. Instructions mean nothing without concepts. Even simple concepts.
What about Bronx...
The point of my original thesis on sentience was that it is frequently treated in an uncritical and mentally lazy way. It enters popular culture, not as anything analytical, but as an imagined distinction between those we have to respect and those we don't have to treat with any kind of consideration.
So, is the mental world of Bronx (or Cagney) diminished by their not being able to articulate it? It should be evident that the notion their thought hinges upon language is ridiculous. Can we say they are sentient? Can we say they have the ability to observe, make inferences and anticipate? Can we say they are aware?
Of course. It's not just a matter of our having significant evidence for the ability of non-humans to have this type of mental experience. It's profoundly unreasonable to maintain that they are not aware and intelligent when we consider the emergence of intelligence in pre-history. It's often supposed that these mental abilities just suddenly appeared in homo sapiens, as if by magic, once we passed a certain threshold in our evolution. Nothing compels this feature to emerge, according to popular mythology. It just shows up unannounced. And it renders homo sapiens capable of language and tool use in a single second of evolutionary history.
Now, evolutionary psychologists have realized for a long time, that this picture of the development of intelligence was as silly as they come. Highly ordered structures like awareness and intellect don't just appear all at once. They emerge over time from more primitive systems. Intelligence evolved under the pressures that all species face in nature.
Awareness and thought did not emerge from nature as a means to get us into college or to allow us to write resumes. They emerged as a means to avoid large predators and distinguish things we can eat from things that can eat us. Living beings need to be able to distinguish between these two things in order to survive. The ability to contemplate concepts of things in our environment is just the natural product of species adapting to interact beneficially with it. All of our mental abilities are inherited from our earliest ancestors and were developed as an instrument for them to survive. The development of these faculties simply could never have delayed emerging until after we developed language.
If you consider it, you will discover that abstract concepts frequently defy linguistic expression, because our ability to think abstractly developed independently of language. You can't really describe a sophisticated mathematical concept or a work of music in words. They can only be contemplated conceptually. In fact very common things defy linguistic expression. Try this experiment.
Describe the color red.
The reason we cant is because the linguistic structure to describe it does not exist. It didn't emerge because it does not serve to benefit our species survival in any way. Yet you can picture red mentally. Or any number of colors. Doubtlessly, a variety of hues, which you might not even have a name for, exist in your mind. They exist as concepts. Mental pictures. And their inability to be defined linguistically does not diminish them. You can picture red. You can apply it to various forms. You can anticipate what would happen if you mixed it with another color. But you don't need language to do that. The imaginative process, the conceptual process, has nothing to do with language.
<<Eskimos have something like seven words that really just mean "snow". Yet an Eskimo thinks like an Eskimo and can judge the minor differences in the type of snow they see and to them one kind of snow is not "a" snow but a "d" snow and ect.. >>
This anecdote about Eskimo's having such a plurality of words for snow is often referred to in arguments for the dependence of thought on language. I don't know why. It does not appear to lend anything to this position. I guess the idea is that the way Eskimo's think about snow is supposed to be structurally different from the way english speakers think of snow. If they do, then it's not evident that it follows from their having more words for snow. In fact, I'm pretty sure there are at least a dozen words for snow in the english language. Flurry, Slush, Hardpack, Frost, Powder, IceLens, etc. And if we include all the descriptive lexemes that we count when we talk about the Eskimo words for snow, then there are probably dozens more in english.
This really is not an indicator that thought is contingent upon language. I can provide an analogous example though, which begins to demonstrate that thought takes place in the absence of language. Colors end up being a good example again, because they are such a large part of our visual world.
In Swedish, there are probably as many words to describe various colors as there are in English. Possibly more. I know they have a special word for light gray. Linguistic relativists would take the position that the Swedish or English must be thinking about colors in a way that is fundamentally denied to people of other cultures, who do not have all these words for colors.
There are many, such cultures. For instance, the Tiv language of New Guinea, where there are only two words for colors, equivalent to light and dark. A Swedish scientific study done years ago sought to test the theory that thought must be absent where language to describe something is also absent. However, when tested, it became apparent that Tiv speakers were able to recognize as many colors (and with the same facility) as Swedish speakers. This is certainly an indicator that thought exists without the benefit of language.
<<Luckily for us I suppose that as humans we all relatively think alike even with our differing way of thinking.>>
I find some arguments for deep structure very persuasive Vanity, but you treat the concept in a way which is very far removed from those arguments.
<<This allows for learning multiple languages each human no matter his language that language has the ability to "learn" or adapt to the use of another language and that is quite a remarkable thing. Almost too remarkable to be chance. >>
Has this become a prescription for theology now?
Punchinello, I agree with everything you're saying... and yet....
Language, once created, does not then exist in a vacuum. Language itself INFLUENCES thought, influences one's thinking about even the most abstract of concepts -- including Red.
Learning a birth language must wire the brain a certain way. At least out of habit. Not hard-wired of course, but non-survival laziness dictates that a birth language must influence thought. That the learning of a new language (in any depth) must also influence thought.
That introducing new words to a human being may in fact on occasion introduce new concepts not discovered.
In 1984, Orwell posited that the destruction or dissolution of words underlying concepts like "Freedom", etc. would result in a population with less awareness of the concepts themselves. Of course even in that novel, he didn't posit that this was enough to completely WIPE OUT the concept of Freedom. Thus individuals like Smith are intentionally awakened by Ingsoc out of their stupor in order to push them down various roads to "Freedom" while under constant observation. These roads are then cut off -- along with the road-takers -- in order to prevent Freedom from, well, ringing.
Yes, concepts exist independent of language. But language, once created, takes on a life of its own (says the writer -- so take it with a grain of salt). Language has, as I'm sure you'd agree, a power of its own.
I'm not at all sure, but that may be where Vanity was heading.
<< (if you infact cannot speak Russian). In fact the communication would very much be like that between man and an animal.>>
I'm not confident of this, Vanity. I think you need to be more careful in the way you treat the issue. What are you basing this similarity on?
<<When he wants a drink and says (whatever in Russian means 'I want to drink your water'); you will overtime perhaps reckognize what he wants through mere repitition. Never though be able to ask him if he liked the water, describe the compositional qualities that make up the glass, or how the purification system(s) in your water plant makes that water safe for you and your family to drink. >>
I don't understand what your point is here, Vanity. What are you trying to say?
<<You can say it he won't know it.
Yet he can still make the moral judgement on his own princibles that he understands in his own language as to if he will leave the toilet seat up or not. >>
Moral judgement? What relationship do moral judgements have with your thesis on thought and language? This tangent about morality doesn't seem to be anything you could reasonably infer from a theory about language. I confess that I'm a little uncomfortable with this avenue of argument. I suspect that by injecting your thesis with reference to moral principles, you're attempting to take what should be a purely normative argument and turn it into a prescriptive one. I'm anticipating that you're going to advocate the application of some kind of value system down the road, and that you're going to take the position that what you say here demonstrates the validity of that system.
You're going to need to demonstrate the legitimacy of the Wharf hypothesis in this thesis if you want to use it as a prescription for moral behavior. Right now, it would be premature. Even unethical. Of course, your point isn't entirely clear to me. I have to guess at your meaning. What I'm guessing you intend is that the Russian's internal self, his "moral principles," are based in a faculty for language. This would be a strange position to take. I think you're confusing the idea of values with the idea of thoughts.
Maybe it would help to clarify your meaning if you considered the following.
1. Assuming that the Russian's "moral principles" have a foundation in language faculty, does this mean anything? It doesn't seem to reinforce any argument you make.
2. Do you assume that moral principles depend on language? It is not apparent that this is so. But if it were apparent, what would it mean? Would it mean sentience was dependent on language? I don't think so.
<<His sentience is still very much intact as is yours, but in communication most of what we consider humanesque intelligible relay of thought is lost. >>
Why don't you just say..."we don't understand someone when they are speaking an unfamiliar language."
I'm bothered by the way you treat this statement as though you have provided a demonstration of the Russian's intact sentience. I think you're implying that we can agree that his sentience is unique among species and incontestable, but nothing you have written demonstrates that the Russian's experience of awareness is even marginally different from a non-human.
<<He can learn but he may not learn English just as you can but may not learn Russian. Words are words, but diction, structural differences, and phonetic discrepencies between the two languages make changing your thinking process from thinking as an Englishmen(English speaking man not man born on England) to thinking as a Russian quite likely impossible.>>
What do you mean by "changing your thinking process?" I can't make sense of the above statement . Is it a linguistic relativist position? It sounds like maybe you're proposing there is a unique type of deep structure in the mind for every native language? The thesis that thought is dependent on language is frequently attributed to Noam Chomsky's theory of deep universal generative grammar, but you need to understand that Chomsky is referring to the basic universal structures that language emerges from. He is not correlating thinking with regional languages. People who attribute that position to him wildly misunderstand his intent. There is no school of linguistics or cognitive science which advances the notion that there are different deep structures for Russian and English. Wharf and Humboldt have attributed different structure to various cultures. But I don't think any of this amounts to deep structure, and certainly not structure based upon language.
<<Even if you learn Russian as to be able to go to Moscow and fool everyone into thinking that you are indeed a native Russian. Your nueral networking will still under most serious probability process thought in English>>
What is "neural networking?"
I think your position hinges upon this notion of how thought is processed. This is where I fundamentally disagree with you.
Thought is not "processed" in English. Or Russian. I'm supposing you borrow this notion from linguistic relativism even though you seem to subscribe to theories of innate language faculty. I would emphasize that even Chomsky, who is the most prominent proponent of deep structure for language, has explicitly conceded that we also think _without words_ in his response to John R. Searle's critique of his theory. Introspection is not a narrative process.
You should consider that it's probably not appropriate to be treating concepts of deep structure in language as linguistic relativist concepts. Eric H. Lenneberg is a deep structurist, and in his study of the biological basis for language he explicitly defends the antithesis of linguistic relativism. He states clearly "that cognitive function is a more basic and primary process than language, and that the dependence-relationship of language on cognition is incomparably stronger than vice versa."
If it begins to sound like deep structurists consider language independent of thought, that's probably because they do. Their position is a much more realistic one. They regard language as a product and expression of thought. But only one of many such products.
Okay, I think I followed all that... but I have nothing worthwhile to add. The whole question of language differences doesn't seem to impinge on the original question of sentience a bit.
<<You say you don't have the full answer. I'm just not clear what the question was. I don't disagree with anything you said, except for the notion that Punchinello and I were defining sentience as simply the ability to communicate. I don't think either of us ever did that.>>
Neither of us did. I should stress however, that I disagree with Vanity, strongly. I take this very seriously. Maybe that appears strange. As I read Vanity's thesis though, I think I detect an effort to base a prescription for moral behavior on what he believes sentience is. And if we're going to do that we need to be very careful. It won't be enough to guess at who we judge worthy of some investment of our ethics. We can't limit the moral worth of some creature because we have a feeling. I imagine people couldn't be bothered to have a disagreement over an obscure philosophical issue. Perhaps if it were just a normative argument being made, I wouldn't care either. That's the problem though. Philosophies are never purely normative. They're always potentially prescriptive.
And since you have opened the floor Greg, to really have an exchange about what sentience is, and by extension, what thought is, responding to this provides a good opportunity to do that.
<<(note if you were in Madrid when you first seen Gargoyles and they spoke in Spanish and of course you did too you might argue they thought in Spanish and you would most likely be right mi amigo). But not as an English Man but and English Gargoyle again not as a nationality but as a tongue. Still Lex's moral judgements can be made too stand on thier own and can communicate with anything Man or Gargoyle or Oberon's Child that also speaks English, whether they think "English" or not. >>
<<Language is not merely a tool for communication it is a way of thinking >>
<< Punchinello and yourself discussed "sententiousness"
in quite lenghty detail. If I remember right the main buckling of the topic of one's being sentient was ultimately his ability to communicate ideas. I don't seem to remember any talk about awareness of thought and decision.>>
Well I've reviewed what I saved of that thread, and I cant find any indication that anyone participating intoned that sentience relied upon communication of ideas. _I_ certainly never did. The idea you're describing in your thesis, that thought depends on a faculty for language, arguably originates in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis and the work of Boas and Humboldt. I'm familiar with this work, and I've never been persuaded that it possessed any kind of intellectual legitimacy. Particularly where Whorf is concerned. The magnitude of error in his thinking is almost comical. Also, while I am unsure of how you are treating the Sapir Whorf hypothesis here, Vanity, it sounds like you suppose that it is not seriously contested by anyone. If that's the case, then you need to understand that it has been the subject of alot of scholarly level criticism among cognitive scientists. In fact, there has been harsh critique in the literature from both the cognitive-neuro camp and the linguistics camp. It's reliability as an hypothesis is alot more tenuous than you might suppose.
<<If a Russian speaker was adopted into your household, and could not understand nor speak a single word of English, you cannot communicate with him on any level of aphroristic expression>>
Aphoristic expression?
Okay, I'm lost. The problem, as usual being the long gaps between when questions are posted and when I actually see them. That and my poor memory. Even with all the words you quote above, I don't really have enough context to add anything relevent. But I'm happy to give you guys a forum for back & forth and hope that some day the back and forth won't take years.
<<Well, let's start with the "buffet"/game-playing writing style. I think it's awful. >>
I agree.
<<Having said that, I have this friend, a garg fan who's now a pretty darn successful writer. When I read her first book, I felt that the first half of it was written in that way. As if rolls of the dice determined who each character was, what he or she could do and what happenned to them.
When I asked her about it, she confessed (if that's the word) that I was dead on. The first half of the book was her almost literally setting to prose a game of D&D that she had played.
I don't recommend doing that, but look at the result. The second half of the novel, inspired as it was by the first half, was wonderful. And she's moved forward with these characters into other books as well. >>
When I indicated that I thought this game-players writing style could be exploited profitably, I wasn't really thinking of more mature, conventional writing emerging from it. Although, that obviouly works too. I was thinking, if you were writing something, for instance, where there was a consistent theme of game-playing, then maybe you could exploit it as a device. I'm thinking of game-playing themes more along the lines of George Perec than dungeons and dragons. So maybe there would be subtle games embedded in the text. But at the same time, maybe there could be a section of the book, or a certain character, which you treat in the game-players writing style. Sort of in the way you could mimic the writing style of the Victorians. I have given no serious thought to what properties make game-player writing read the way it does. But it _is_ recognizable. You've identified it, yourself.
<<But your second question is more serious. Does this process in fact impair the reader/audience. Forget that some of these guys will never be great writers, will this make them bad readers?
I don't know. But my guess is that it's the same (or similar) percentage of people who would have been bad readers in the first place. The good ones will transcend. The others won't. That's my hypothesis.>>
I suppose so. It's just that I keep on detecting subtle trends in the way people in our culture think about things. And I worry this game-players thing will worsen. It's like that business of an incomplete idea of "sentience" invading popular culture. It seems ridiculous to speculate that the idea migrated into the culture from star trek, but if you observe carefully, you can see it. I think people in our culture, are less and less informed by critical thinking today.
Ten years ago, for instance, I don't think I saw game-player writing anywhere. Now, even before this conversation I had, in which we began to put a name to this thing, it seems pervasive. I think the novelty has become the institution. Consider that twenty years ago, aspiring authors could not have seen this in literature. Today, I have waking nightmares that the kid who would have been the next Paul Auster is going to become intellectually deranged when he picks up a dungeons/dragons book for the first time and gets the idea that "this must be how people write."
I'm probably thinking of something along the lines of memes here. Ideas enter the culture and become dominant over time. Usually, stupid ideas. They begin to define the way that people think about things and even the way they value things. It doesn't just erode our intellects. It can erode sensible ethics. Consider this...
I saw an episode of star trek recently, and it really alarmed me. The premise was that the characters travel to a planet where the human population reproduces exclusively by cloning. For some ridiculous reason they could no longer continue cloning themselves, so they ask the characters to donate genetic material so their culture can survive. The characters hostility to the idea is so irrational that I wouldn't know how to describe it. And when the clone people sneak away some of their genetic material to make clones of them anyway, a demonstration of some of the most demented rationalization of science fiction occurs.
The characters go to the lab where their clones have already developed into full grown reproductions of themselves, and use their death rays to obliterate them. And I should be clear that these were not blastocysts in test tubes. These were obviously fully grown and autonomous people. And this is all treated by the authors as though it were the most natural thing in the world. It's simply understood that being cloned "diminishes you" as a human being, and that their absurd indignation was somehow righteous. Precisely how this diminishes a person is never elaborated upon, and I'm sure that the authors never even thought about it. They assume, with remarkable vacuousness, that the cloned people in the lab do not possess any type of intrinsic worth. I know that star trek authors have never picked up a science text, but the poverty of ethical thinking here, compelled me to think they had never read a book or had a thought about anything.
Of course, it's just a silly TV show. Right?
And yet, it's conspicuous that the range public debate about bioethics is defined by these concepts. I'm not talking about the range of debate in the literature of science or philosophy. That remains very isolated from the public forums where most people in our culture consider these issues. In popular magazines and network news journalism, the dominant logic is that a person is rendered somehow, "lesser" by having been cloned. The idea has been in ascendancy for a decade despite the depth of it's ignorance. The people who define and limit public discourse about it have certainly never thought about it critically. Their positions frequently contradict themselves and more frequenly rely on popular myths and emotional appeals to people's superstitions.
And it gets worse. Something far more sinister has emerged from popular, misinformed dialogue about cloning. In popular disputes about it (I heard the notion resurface on CNN about a month ago) the question of "what kind of rights would a clone have" is routinely brandished about as though it were an intelligent thought. To practicing ethicists and scientists, this notion probably would not have even entered the dialogue if it had not been thrust upon them by popular culture. That the question is being asked at all assumes, uncritically, that there is something meaningfully distinguishable about a cloned person which would compel us to assign a different worth to them. A worth, lesser than a person who came into the world by conventional means.
I have a suspicion, that the people most vocally shrieking about the moral dilemmas of cloning, are actually theologically threatened by it. I have no evidence of this. But a few inferences they have made, have got me thinking that their theological picture of "personhood" follows a very rigid prescription, and their indignation may originate with some inept idea that a clone would not have a soul.
"Soul" becomes a good parallel to "sentient life." One is from religion and one is from science fiction, but both of them are shortcuts people use instead of actually thinking about the internal properties that imbue something with intrinsic moral worth.
I hope it's apparent why I think this is important. Magical thinking can be dangerous. The worth of a being can't reasonably be described in these terms. If the distinction between ruling class and underclass or the difference between pets and meat is being determined by distinguishing one as sentient or soul-containing, then we have not really distinguished anything. We're just making things up. We might as well assign moral worth based upon who has stars on their bellies.
I don't remember what Goliath's reaction to Thailog was precisely. I remember that he was alarmed by the prospect of there being another version of himself. How would you describe his feelings about the issue. I suspect since he would have no concept of cloning technology, his perception of it would be unique.
Goliath's initial reaction was horror and anger. Not at the clone per se, but at Xanatos for having stolen something -- Goliath's uniqueness as an individual, at least. I think that's a legitimate fear (not a rational, ethical response). And certainly, there's no ethical justification for Xanatos' actions.
But as Elisa shortly points out, it's too late to simply be pissed at Xanatos. The clone, Thailog, exists. He's alive. As much a Gargoyle as Goliath is. In a very real way, he is Goliath's son. Goliath quickly agrees. (Of course, by this time, he's already pissed off Thailog -- a victim of nurture as opposed to nature -- and there will be no reconciliation.)
Look, let's take the Star Trek episode you described. I've seen it, though it's been years, so I'm going to have to rely on your version of it.
I think it's completely legitimate to have reservations about loaning your genetic material so that they can make clones of you. It's legitimate to be generous too, but you must acknowledge that it must be a personal decision.
A friend once hinted that she'd like me to donate sperm so that she could have a baby. I truly believe that this person would make a great parent, but it's just not in me to help in this way. Mostly because I know how I feel about my own kids. And the knowledge that there was another child of mine out there and not part of my life would drive me nuts.
So I buy into Riker, et al, rejecting the request from the Clone-Society. It MUST be a personal choice. Also, medically -- by the rules they set up/made up -- the point was made that cloning would always be a stopgap solution. So there's a certain pointlessness to participating. But whatever. You MUST have the right to say no. Goliath should be able to say no to Xanatos.... "Thanks, David, but I don't really want a clone of me out there, particularly since I don't trust your parenting skills."
Now of course, what I believe your really objecting to is Riker and company killing living viable beings... and of course Elisa, Goliath and I would totally agree with you. If the clones are completed, the clones are completed. That's that. They're alive. TOO LATE!!!!
Now, there's another Riker episode where he discovers that he has a clone -- in fact it becomes unclear which is the clone and which is the real Riker (i.e. the guy we've known all these years, or the guy that's been trapped on a distant planet for years). Both wind up surviving, which I thought was novel. The "clone" later became somewhat Xanatosian, which I also appreciated.
But to take your argument to something more general than cloning... I mean you need to keep in mind that when cloning is used in SF (or at least good SF) it's just a metaphor. Clones are regarded as second class citizens because the history of humanity is rife with second class citizens based on criteria equally as dopey.
Now, agreed some SF doesn't get it.
And, agreed, now that actual cloning is becoming closer to actual reality, people may be adopting the jargon of SF because -- what else do they have?
But lazy thinkers have ALWAYS existed. On bad days I certainly think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but if I'm being more honest, I can't exactly look back on the world and go : "HEY, NO PROGRESS!" There's been a lot of progress. We'll never wipe out ethics-free humans. Ethically, well, we're just not allowed to.
The memes you discuss may be a problem. But they're just replacing old memes that are even more devastating because they're WAY TOO REAL.
It's another old Sci-Fi notion... In a very real way, wouldn't it be great if the ALIENS did attack. Because then FINALLY, humanity would realize how little differentiates black from white, male from female, gay from straight, etc., ad nauseum. Of course, that would immediately present us with the new racial challenge of learning to "just get along" with the aliens. But wouldn't it be nice for just a moment to get past the pettiness that we own ourselves?
Or something like that.
Hello Mr. Weisman.
<<So sometimes, it does get annoying. But mostly I enjoy doing this. (I do think that doing a little a day has been a much better system than trying to do big batches of questions all at once. I get less annoyed when not burdened with the cumulative effects of annoyance.) Do I wish this could be more of a forum for ideas and discussion? Well, yeah, duh. I've invited that in the past, and, P., I always enjoy reading and responding to your posts.>>
<<I hope that 18 months later you're still checking ASK GREG and reading this. I hope that you'll compose your response and hold on to it, submitting it when we finally get things back up and running. But even if you're not, even if you're long gone, thanks for raising some interesting issues.>>
All this sort of diminishes some of my apprehensions about submitting things to this forum. Most of the time I have assumed it's a huge hassle for you.
<<(Although what you quoted at the head of your post:
<<You idiot! Did you not read the no ideas clause on the main askgreg page or are you just pretending to be stupid!>>
is a bit lost on me out of context. I can't believe I wrote the first quote.) >>
You didn't write it. I'm sorry. That must have seemed strange to you. When I submitted this post (all those many years ago) there were two posts in the list directly before mine. The first was from someone who I don't think had ever posted a message here before. I don't remember his name or what he wrote, but I do remember that he was speculating about something you did in the show. His post seemed pretty benign to me. He was just curious about something.
The second post was from...some anonymous idiot. He was the one asking the curious guy if he was "pretending to be stupid." I got the impression he was trying to demonstrate his superior knowledge of "gargoyles forum culture." I found his invective incredibly offensive. Apparently so did your mr. Gorebash, because he deleted his post after I responded. That's why you didn't see it.
I think the guy rematerialized shortly afterwards, as Master Debator, who had never posted before and most likely never will again. I almost regret you decided not to dignify his contest for "king of the garg fans" with a reaction, as I'm sure your reaction could have been very amusing.
<<So a lot comes down to the intent of the questioner, and you can usually tell, if not in a single post then in the range of posts that that person submits. If I get 16 posts in a row asking something like, "Who is Maggie's father?" followed by "Who is Claw's father?" followed by "Who is Fang's father?" or if I get requests for laundry lists of things, "Name all the ancient heroes who have encountered Oberon," then you can bet that the questioner was looking for a question to ask, as opposed to trying to deepen his or her understanding of the show or character.>>
<<And again, I think you can often (though not always) tell by the question itself if that's what the questioner is seeking. A deeper understanding about some aspect of the show.>>
I understand. I think part of the reason that I responded to the anonymous character in the way I did was because I had gotten the idea in my head that it was the same anonymous character that is persistently demanding that you elaborate on the most trivial minutia. From my perspective, it seemed like someone had just asked where fox got her tattoo six times in a row, then had the unmitigated gaul to call someone else an idiot for asking an innocent question.
I so wish I could just catch up. It's so hard to raise this forum up to its potential when I'm two years behind responding to a post that's responding to a post that's two years even further back.
Hopefully, we'll have the opportunity to repair the system sometime soon. But in the meantime, I just keep plugging away. And I hope you (all of you) stick around too.
Hello, again. I have a question/observation concerning Oberon. I have noticed an unfortunate trend among fans of the series (particularly in fanfiction, although I understand you don't read such material) to present Oberon in an unfavorable light. Even The Gargoyles Saga, which normally boasts excellent characterization, consistently depicts Oberon in a manner which I feel is grossly unfair. I liked Oberon. I thought that he was stern, but fair, and was also very concerned with the proper use of power. Granted, he possessed character flaws. But he banished his Children from Avalon, forcing them to live amongst mortals, because he felt that they didn't have proper respect for the rights of mortals. His Law is also shown in an unfair light. Most fans seem to like to show him as an uncaring, distant figure, who could care less if the bulk of humanity simply died off. I interpret his Law differently, though. Perhaps its simply because I am an inveterate comic book fan, and the topic has been frequently used in comic books. But I believe that Oberon forbids direct magical intervention, even to help mortals, because he understands that mortals must stand on their own. He understands that, if he were to direct his Children to use their powers to shelter and care for mortals, we would come to rely on them for everything, even the problems that we could solve on our own. Our potential would be stunted. We would eventually become little better than pets for the Children of Oberon. Obviously, he doesn't mind non-magical intervention. Puck interferes a great deal, but as Owen, without magic. Grandmother has seemingly guided and advised mortals for centuries. Many of the Children (including Oberon himself) have sired or beared Half-Fae children with mortals. His emphasis seems to be on ensuring that mortals don't become reliant on the Children of Oberon, that we feed our own poor, treat our own sick and wounded, fight our own battles. In short, that we make our own mistakes and stand on our own two feet. Was I off the mark?
No. But you're comparing your interpretation to the interpretations of other fans -- interpretations that I have not seen.
In general terms -- very general terms -- I agree with you. But Oberon is also dangerous and powerful and subject to interpreting his OWN laws his own way. I don't think of him in a negative light. But I also don't think he's entirely benign either.
I know that the Gargoyles Movie on VHS has scenes cut out from the Awakening episodes that were shown on TV. You guys did a pretty good job editing it I think. (I'm not sure if you did that or not though.) This is just my opinion, but I'd just like to tell you about one small scene I think should of been kept in the movie on VHS. The scene where Goliath is talking to Princess Katherine and Magus, right before Magus turns Goliath to stone, Goliath says, "The eggs in the rookery will soon hatch, they will need guidance." And then Princess Katherine says, "Never fear, we will watch over them as if they were our own." I think that small scene should of stayed in the movie. If you never saw the Awakening episodes on TV, and started watching the other Gargoyles episodes on TV, I think that small scene is important so people know that Goliath asked Katherine and Magus to take care of the eggs. Maybe that's just me, but that's just my opinion, and I thought I'd like to tell you about it.
P.S. I also think on the Awakening episodes on TV, it's funny when Hudson is flipping through the channels on the TV, and there is a scene from the Lion King. Since I'm also a big Lion King fan.
I prefer the TV five-part version myself, though I'm the one who supervised the editing on the movie version.
But we left out that little scene intentionally. The Movie was not designed to be a primer for the tv show. But to stand alone. And adding egg references didn't help it to stand alone. It bothers me that they released THAT version on VHS, but the problem's been corrected now on DVD.
Hey there! Welcome back!
Just finished reading your summer vacation..."Escape from New York" is right! Man, that must've been a tense ride at the time. I guess no harm no foul, but I still don't envy your experience. I envy Greg "Xanatos," though--he got to be your chauffer for the day!
BTW, I didn't realize you were a "Harry Potter" reader! I read through the whole of book 5 in about three nights and a Saturday morning. Yes, it has grown up some, but then, so has Harry.
LXG: I was introduced to that last year, read the collected graphic novel at the house of a friend I was visiting for Thanksgiving. I thought it was a great, fun read (though I, predictably, shook my head at the whole "Freemason" thing). I have to admit I had no idea who Quartermain was, originally. Still not sure if I'll see the movie though, considering the changes they've made.
I'm also not sure if I'll go see Sindbad in the theaters. I'm tempted to see it just for Eris--I like her look, and her animation style seems nice--but frankly, my biggest turn-off is the dog. From what I've heard, he originally wasn't in that much of the movie, but after viewing their test audience's reaction to him (and they were predominantly young children) they added 7 more scenes with the dog. Of course, since I have not seen it, I cannot judge. What rubbed you about it?
And the Gathering...man what a great time it must have been. I wish I could have gone. Heck, I wish I remembered to do the Honorary Attendee thing (I'm still kicking myself over that). The thing I actually missed most about this one, is that I wasn't able to sign the Sperlings' card--that was a great thing that everybody did, and I really regret not being a part of that.
Well, that's about all I have to say right now. But just wait 'til you post your next ramble, Greg--I'll have a whole book written for you then! Of course, by the time you read this, a LOT of what I've written will be outdated. Oh well.... :-)
Later!
We can laugh about it now, but I'm not sure GXB enjoyed being my chauffeur THAT day.
Harry - Waiting with excitement for book 6.
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - I enjoyed the second graphic novel, although not perhaps quite as much as the first. Yet I'm still hungry for more. Thought the movie was weak, though it had some nice stuff in there.
Sinbad - Wow, that movie was so forgettable, I don't even remember a dog. My main gripe, as I vaguely recall, was how white bread Western-influence it all turned out. No flavor of the Arabian Nights seemed to survive. Made Aladdin look like the real thing by comparison.
SANCTUARY
Naturally, Notre Dame had to be brought into this series *sometime* (especially once they started the world tour).
I don't know who I figured the "winged sillhouette" (sp?) at the beginning to be, but I think I may have suspected Demona, because she struck me as the most well-traveled gargoyle I could think of.
Then we see Macbeth with a babe who sports a heavy French accent. It wasn't until she said "we have all the time in the world" (accompanied by a not-too-subtle music sting) that I recognized her (by voice anyway). I knew I was in for a good ep.
And Elisa pretty much admits her romantic view of Goliath. I find it interesting how she so naturally moves from talking to herself to talking to the "snoozing" crew. And of course we have yet another "D'oh" moment when Elisa starts to call her parents...and stops to follow Demona and Macbeth.
Pointless note--I like D & M's costumes here. Very nice.
Elisa eventually makes her way back to the others with the paper and they're off and running after the plot.
Something I'd point out here, Angela never says that Katharine or Tom told her about Notre Dame, yet I've seen several people make that assumption. As far as I can tell, Angela didn't hear about it until Elisa mentioned it.
I believe, when I first saw this, I took Goliath's rebuking Angela for calling him father as him preserving tradition--even though he pretty much states he's concerned about keeping Angela away from Demona the next minute. Gradually, I began to see that this was mostly just his excuse. Unfortunately, in doing that, he was actually pushing her away.
I love Elisa's shocked "What?!" to being put in the role of "helpless damsel who needs protection." Goliath didn't even ask her (or wait to hear what Elisa had to say after "I can sympathize, but--"). He just did it. Yet, Elisa goes along with it. She can barely look Angela in the eye when she says it.
Every time I see Goliath clawing the wall of Notre Dame I cringe. Have some respect for historic sites, will ya?!
I only really noticed Demona's line "In here, my love" the second time I watched it. I think the first time, her actual reaction upon seeing Goliath pushed it out of my mind. I like her line "New York is your protectorate--Paris belongs to me!" This is especially fun in hindsight, because, as we learn later in HUNTER'S MOON (and the unanimated TEAM ATLANTIS episode THE LAST) she has quite a history with this city.
There is some weird animation here. At one point, Demona sends Goliath hutling through the tower and he knocks the head off a stone gargoyle next to Bronx--but there's no sound! I recall that some folks assumed said gargoyle to be Boudicca ducking (probably because of its coloring) before they slowed down the tape. Also, when Demona says "You're not leaving here alive" she seems a bit skinnier than usual (and her halter-top seems to be a bit more...[ahem] revealing).
Enter Thailog. In new threads too! I don't know when/where/how he got that armor, but it does end up making him look even more distinctive from Goliath. And, as per the memo, gives him a little more of a Xanatos quality. And reintroducing him as Demona's love interest! It was a twist but felt so natural at the same time!
Thailog is great here, and Demona's taunting of Goliath is really...something, I don't know. All I know is it's aggravating enough to make me want to strangle her (and that's with the knowledge that I'd be dead within .2 seconds). And Goliath's actions here are endlessly fascinating. He accuses Demona, and tries to save Thailog. I have to wonder at his thoughts about his "son" getting together with his ex. I love Thailog's offering "to share [his] santuary" with Goliath--that is SOOOO Xanatos. And of course Goliath brings up the obvious objection, which Demona taunts him for (honestly, who wouldn't be a little paranoid around that woman?).
Angela, being the good little helper she is, and still eager to stay close with her father, has run to what was supposed to be a battle, and finds herself eavesdropping. I wonder if maybe she regretted having done that once she got back to the skiff. It almost looks that way.
It wasn't until my second viewing that I caught the name of D & T's company--Nightstone Unlimited. Very nice indeed. And we finally hear the human aliases of these two plotters. BTW, much happier that you went with Dominique Destine (sp?) over Dierdre (sp? again). I like their embrace--Thailog's wrapping his wings completely around her, Demona snuggling into his chest when they share a villainous laugh. This is one of the steamiest scenes in the series, I think. You always said, Greg, that although Thailog intended to betray Demona from the beginning, he still found her physically attractive. I'll bet he had his kicks while he had her around.
Anyway, it made sense that Demona had hoarded treasure. How much money does she have anyway?
Meanwhile, Goliath and Angela get into another "family discussion." As someone else has pointed out, Goliath really seems to get angry here...and Angela matches his outrage. Little animation nit though--after our heroes turn to stone, we get a back-shot of Angela, and...she has Demona's hair. A bit distracting.
Elisa talking to herself in the cafe was alright--she has a long established habit of doing this. As for her last line...I recognized that it was a Superman reference (and I probably would have appreciated it more had I known that Cary Bates wrote for that comic way back when), but still...I'm sorry, Greg, it just doesn't do it for me. I do appreciate the referencing behind it, though.
The wedding. Demona really looks good in that wedding dress--and it's a testament to her acting that she looks more comfortable in that than Banquo and Fleance do in their respective outfits. Seriously, those two look so out of place in such fancy clothes--I bet they were happy to be out of them.
I feel real sorry for Macbeth in this episode. He marries this woman, starts to tell her about himself, and it turns out that his "bride" has been his enemy all along. His shock is excellent, and I can only imagine what his initial thoughts were upon coming to in his cell.
I love the animation on Demona's transformation. Very nice, and we see her without her tiara for once.
I also like Macbeth's "Who the blazes are you?!" when he sees Thailog. I wonder what he might have thought about this gargoyle that sounded like Goliath and shared a remarkable number of physical features.
Then Thailog hands Macbeth a gun...and I am left totally clueless. I admit it, I didn't fully grasp Thailog's plan until he spelled it out. Maybe I'm slow, or maybe by this point I just wanted to watch the story unfold. But Thailog is excellent at diverting suspicion from himself. And I love his little "Have a blast, you two" followed by his laugh.
And then he leers at Angela. I partially agree with Airwalker that this might in some part be to creep Goliath out, but I also find it more interesting (and preferable) that Thailog did feel some bit of lust upon seeing her. It just darkens his character more and, IMO, adds a whole lot more fun to him. I don't know why, but I love how Thailog holds Angela by her belt, too.
Thailog reveals the truth, and NOW is, in my mind, when Goliath views Thailog as a true enemy instead of a lost soul. And the amazing thing is, for having so little battle experience, Thailog holds up pretty well. Mostly because of his particle-beam rifle, but that of course also gets him into trouble with the water tower. All that "vast knowledge" and he doesn't try to run when the tower starts to creak--he *is* inexperienced. I also like Goliath's double-fisted punch to Thailog, and Thailog's fall (accompanied with EXCELLENT music thanks to Carl Johnson). Then Thailog gets up and attacks Goliath full force, and it's only through the intervention of Angela and Bronx that G is able to get the upper hand. Seriously, they have Thailog cornered, and only stop when they realise that the battle INSIDE the building has stopped. Thailog is such a cool bastard as he smilingly says "I enjoyed the exercise, Goliath" and soars off the rooftop.
While all of this has been going on, Demona and Macbeth have been having a pretty good scuffle. The highlights for me include that three barralled particle cannon, the bit with the globe (one person gets bowled over by the globe, the other by...NOTHING!), and Demona's oft-mentioned stagger (seriously, how often do you get to see a character "punch drunk" like that?). Then Elisa hits on the solution both I and my brother (who had been watching this with me) figured right away. I like her uncertainty, though--it is a bit of a difficult concept to swallow.
Goliath and Macbeth, who had started out this series as enemies, now are almost like comrades. Similar experience probably paves the way for this, but it really is nice to see the hero show genuine sympathy for a former foe, and for said foe to accept it. And hey, Goliath tells a pretty good joke and even gets Macbeth to smile!
Of course, there is another moment between Elisa and Goliath, fleeting, but still wonderful.
Demona gets her first glimpse of Angela, and her reaction is just right. Of course, before the matter gets pressed, Thailog reappears. He salvages the situation for himself wonderfully (and it's so odd to see Demona being carried off like that...one isn't used to seeing her in such a vulnerable position). And both Macbeth and Goliath have, again, a moment of shared regret.
The episode wraps up with a somber ride into the mists, as Angela seeks the final confirmation for her question. Since Goliath won't answer (won't even look at her, it's too painful), she turns to Elisa, who pretty much admits the presence of the elephant in the room, allowing Angela to cope with that knowledge as best she can.
In case you can't tell, I think this is a great episode--and there's so much in it! Not the least of which is Thailog. I knew from his first episode he'd be someone to watch out for, but this episode cemented him as one of my favorite villains, and led to my brother dubbing him "evil incarnate in GARGOYLES."
I don't know about "evil incarnate" but he was a very fun character to write, and we had big plans for him.
I guess if the worst thing about the episode is the "This is a job for the Gargoyles" line, then we must not have done too badly.
My ramble on "Sanctuary", in response to yours.
"Sanctuary" is one of three "Gargoyles" episodes that I like to watch (from my tapes) once a year, on holidays. I watch it on Valentine's Day. (The other two are "Eye of the Beholder", for Halloween, and "The Hound of Ulster", for St. Patrick's Day). It does seem appropriate for Valentine's Day, with all the romance in it. (Although, at the same time, it's mostly "failed romance". Macbeth falls in love with Dominique Destine, only to be betrayed by her. Demona falls in love with Thailog, but is betrayed by him - though she doesn't even find out that he's no good until "The Reckoning". We get references back to Goliath and Demona when they were a couple - and we know how that one turned out. The only romance here that's got any real hope is Goliath and Elisa - and even that hasn't quite begun yet, with Elisa still holding off on it, as you pointed out).
I couldn't help but think that Dominique's French accent sounded more than a little hokey.
After marrying Macbeth, of course, Demona now could be called "Lady Macbeth" - and I'd say that she fits the imagery surrounding that name a lot better than Gruoch does.
One of the moments that I find especially touching in this episode is where Macbeth is getting ready to explain to Dominique all about his true nature. (Come to think of it, the real challenge that he'd have here - if the situation was what he thought it was - would be having to counteract the "murderous tyrant" image that Shakespeare had built around him, given that almost everybody who's heard of Macbeth is more likely to be familiar with the Shakespeare version of his story than the real history behind it).
I'll admit that I cringed at Elisa's "This is a job for the gargoyles line" (I honestly don't see the gargoyles as being "super-heroes", at least, not the same variety as Superman or Batman). But I agree with you on Thailog's cunning in immediately derailing suspicion from himself with his "Didn't you search him?" line. And on how unsettling it is when he leers at Angela (and, frankly, I don't think that he'd be at all bothered by the incest angle).
I also noticed how Thailog bears the same first name as Xanatos's biological son - and it's definitely creepy, especially given that Thailog and Xanatos couldn't even have come into contact with each other about it.
So you noticed those paintings that appear to be of Elisa, too? I was wondering about them myself.
One odd little thought from the first time that I saw it: I'm not sure why, but for some reason or other, the first time that I saw this episode, I actually thought, when Angela got buried under the rubble, that she wouldn't make it out alive. It does appear that I wasn't quite certain that she'd make it to the clock tower (too much influence from "status quo" television here, perhaps?).
I liked your analysis of Goliath's fears over Angela meeting her mother - but I wonder if Demona really could pose a danger of corrupting Angela. Angela's overall interactions with humanity have been much happier than Demona's - three loving human foster-parents who raised her and her rookery siblings, plus Elisa - that'd have to outweigh even the worst that an anti-gargoyle mob could do. But I suppose that it would be like Goliath to not want to take that risk.
(And re Elisa being Angela's "stepmother" - well, you've got to admit that it would definitely break the Disney cliche there - the first time that they do a "good stepmother" - and with the biological mother as the "wicked witch", at that).
Have to admit that much as I LOVE Marina's work, I wasn't wild about her French accent.
Demona as LADY MACBETH was very intentional. There's more I could say on this subject... but I'll refrain for now.
As for Angela's survival, I guess it's a war between "status quo tv" and "don't kill off the good guys on a Disney show". Since we tried to defy expectations on both fronts when we could, I like to hope that you guys we'll fear the worst periodically.
The truth is, I'm always hesitant to kill ANY character (good or evil, major or minor), as I can usually find great stories for him or her down the road. But sometimes the Gargverse just doesn't give me any choice.
GOLEM
As soon as I saw the title, I instantly thought of the connection between this legendary figure and our gargs. It's fitting that Max's description of the Golem resonates with Goliath.
Actually, when I saw this, I had not realized that there really was a Rabbi Loew, and that legends had connected him with the Golem. You learn something new from GARGOYLES every time.
I liked a lot of the animation and character work in this episode. Especially the shots of the gargs climbing and gliding. They were very well done.
Brode interested me mostly because of his look (and Clancy Brown's voice). He's given some nice facial expressions and character moments. I don't think he's on a level with Xanatos, but he does seem a bit more competent (sp?) than Dracon--that boy's biggest chance to shine came only at the very beginning of DEADLY FORCE when he knocked down Bruno. Otherwise, Dracon seems to avoid direct confrontations, whereas Brode is far more hands on. And, as has been said, he can think more in the long-term.
Max Loew--another budding hero our travelers meet. Unlike Nick, Max seems to have some belief in ancient legends, and though he is reluctant at first (and voices his doubts) it takes very little prodding from Janus or anyone else for Max to do what must be done. I really like some of his and Janus' exchanges. In terms of character, my favorite is Janus telling Max, "YOU are the Chosen One," with Max responding, "Which doesn't leave me any choice." In terms of comedy, I like Max's "What if it doesn't like me?" to which Janus can't help but smile.
I really wish more could have been done with Janus. He seems like such an interesting character (heck, he seemed even less taken aback by the gargoyles than Max--and even that boy took the whole thing in stride).
I loved the flashback of Prague 400 years ago. That moment where the old man falls down, and then we pan up to see the shadow of the Attacker beating him...that was one of the most chilling moments in this show. Of course, it's undercut by the same old man appearing in relatively good condition later, but still.... And the ceremony of the Golem's Awakening was breathtaking. I loved the scenery with all the candles, and seeing Loew through the Golem's POV. And I pretty much fell in love with the Hebrew incantations. Of course, the rest of the scene has some very anime moments. Not just the pink hair on the woman with the baby, but also some of the facial expressions of the Attackers seem straight out of "Speed Racer" or something. It's somewhat distracting, but not terribly so.
I like how Act 2 begins only with the striking of a match. A nice moment.
Now, for Renard. I was mildly surprised to see Vogel with him, but I didn't think it a real discrepancy. It wasn't too great a stretch of the imagination to think that Renard had forgiven him. What did surprise me was their being in the company of Brode. That, and Renard's "reveal" (hidden in shadows at first before coming into the light) lent a sinsiter nature to his appearance here. One of my friends, who had never seen the show before, had caught a glimpse of this and assumed "the old man" to be the main bad guy or something close. For my own part, I was instantly intrigued. Why would Renard have this dark aura about him?
I knew Goliath would try to get in touch with him, they are friends after all, and was surprised at how curt Renard was with G. I like how Goliath's mouth hangs open for an instant after being rebuffed, and then he broods away.
This episode was the first time I realized Renard had an illness. I had thought before that he was just very old, but with this...it adds even more bitterness to his situation (more than if it had been just a natural aging) and makes his fall more believable. When Renard does become the Golem, he has a very telling moment, where after crowing, "I can walk," he touches the cheek of his human body and quietly murmurs, "I can feel again." That got to me--that he was robbed not only of movement, but of feeling as well. Of course, he abuses his new-found power (and now I finally know the name on the tombstone he knocked over, and as for the car Greg, it is a bit battered, but whole enough for Renard's smashing it to crush in the top and windshield). Still, he seemed to degenerate rather quickly for me. I found his turning back towards the light, so to speak, more natural. But I KNEW that at some point, Renard-Golem would say "It's not my fault"--that just had to be there to show how much he betrayed his ideals. While I may have found his turnaround rather jarring originally, in later viewings, especially this last one, I notice how much Robert Culp is able to do with his voice. He actually portrays the doubt, frustration, fear, everything. His acting goes a long way towards making Renard's changes work. Still, a little more "breathing space" might have helped.
One thing I really thought about just this last time--Renard orders Vogel to guard his human body. Even there, Renard has doubts about being in the Golem.
And I also like Goliath's line about "Giving up all you believe in--for a piece of CLAY!"
For his own part, Vogel seems to have thrown himself even more into the role of "yes-man" than usual (probably to make up for his earlier betrayal). He only comes out of it once when he chastises Goliath (he's got guts, that one).
I had figured that Goliath and the others would have tried to get in contact with Renard or someone to get home eventually, but when Goliath decided to stay the course and finish out going where Avalon sent them to go...I was almost cynically expecting that. Yet, I was not really disappointed--it made sense for everything and everyone up to this point. So I sat back and tried to stop worrying about when they'd get home.
Misc. stuff: When Goliath gets hit by Brode, it's with a stun gun--that looks very much like his regular bullet gun.
One of Brode's goons is the thug from the park in DEADLY FORCE. And the driver of the car that nearly runs into the Golem looks like the guy who tried to buy a gun from Glasses in the same episode, except the guy here has black hair (a second cousin, maybe?).
While on the subject of cars--the guy above was on the left side of the car, driving the right side of the road, whereas Brode was on the right side of the car, driving on the left side of the road. Which is the right one in Prague?
Anyway, while it's not on my "top ten list," I do think this is a pretty cool episode. Of course, only now, after reading your ramble, Greg, do I actually realize the importance of it in regards to the focus of the World Tour. Very nice that.
Unfortunately, I don't remember my ramble. It's been too long. And I'm not too clear on how one drives in Prague either. So I'm feeling a bit useless.
But I did like reading your ramble...
About "Golem".
The funny thing is that I was watching "Golem" this morning, as part of my little custom of rewatching my "Gargoyles" tapes each summer. Which means that it's still fresh in my memory as I'm writing this ramble-reply.
I will confess that I don't have as many observations to make about this episode (beyond the fact that I quite enjoyed it). I'm not much of an expert on the Golem legend (beyond the overall concept) - Airwalker did a splendid job of analyzing the use of the Golem legend in his comments at the comment board - so I can only give some general remarks here.
Brod struck me as more akin to Dracon than to Xanatos, truth to tell (partly because Brod was an open criminal, which Dracon was but Xanatos wasn't). I hadn't even noticed the parallel between the Golem about to kill Brod and Goliath about to kill Xanatos in "Awakening Part One", until you mentioned it.
I hadn't realized the parallel between Elisa and Max, either - though I did pick up on the parallel between the gargoyles and the Golem pretty quickly.
One of my favorite little bits: Bronx nudging himself against Janus, who then scratches Bronx behind the ears.
I liked the development of Renard, including his and Goliath's reversal of roles from "Outfoxed" - and I picked up at once on the significance of his "It's not my fault" line. I was one of those who thought that his change of heart came a little too quickly, but you provide a good explanation for how Goliath convinced him so quickly.
I was quite impressed, by the way, with the dedication that Max Loew showed in firmly speaking to Renard-in-the-Golem's-body, as well as with the Golem when it's about to drop Brod into the pit.
I was also pleased to see that Goliath caught on to the significance of the Avalon World Tour at the end of this episode (definitely making it into a turning point). Obviously, he'd have to catch on soon in order to keep from looking slow.
Not much to say, I'll admit; I do have more comments, though, for "Sanctuary", which is coming up next.
I always thought of Goliath as more the tortoise than the hare in the brains department.
Ramble on Golem.
A great episode this.
On the climbing. I've got to say, my favorite Gargoyle shots are of them climbing. It best shows off how animalistic they are and how beautiful they are. It really drives home the "they aren't human" issue. They're creatures of instinct.
And, BTW, when Angela and Bronx are climbing up the tower, that's a great butt shot on Elisa. Gotta say. Elisa rocks. Strong woman that never gives up, protects her friends, has a sense of humor, and has a great butt.
If she's based off of anybody you know, mind introducing me? :)
Onto the rest of the ramble.
Max and Elisa parallel on that huge issue. They're the heroes beside the heroes. The difference is that Elisa started out that way. It's who she is. Considering who her parents are, it might even be an instinctive trait to her.
Max? Max isn't so lucky as to have Elisa's upbringing. He's probably had to learn that lesson that there are some things that are too powerful for him to overcome. So, he has to overcome that fear just to go into his destiny.
Elisa's learned quite the opposite lesson. Even within the series, she's learned that, even though there's always somebody bigger and stronger than she is, that doesn't really matter.
Renard gone mad. Oh come on, like you wouldn't destroy a few things if you got that kind of power. It's like a new toy. You play with it until you're through.
But, when Renard was through with the euphoria of the new toy, he was left with the cost. And, that was a great face shot of the Golem when Renard realized that he had become something. It also made sense that it was Goliath's words that finally got through.
He might, logically, have known that Elisa and Max were right, but he considered Goliath to be an equal. They both share that daily struggle of integrity. And, it's here where Goliath really repayed Renard for his lesson in Outfoxed, and reminded him of the daily struggle that is integrity.
The final fight sequence was something that struck me. 4 different heroes, 4 different styles. Max, the Golem, Goliath, and Elisa. Each very effective.
The first time I saw this, I saw the golem as a robot and Max as the mind behind it. Telling it what to do and, like a good little drone, it does it. Essentially making Max the mind. But, that scene with Brode over the big pit, last time I saw it, changed my mind. Instead of the golem's mind, the golem has it's own mind even if it is a primitive one, Max is the golem's heart.
If there were future episodes with the golem, I could see Max going through efforts to keep the golem from becoming like the monsters that he fights.
Can't wait for the ramble on "The Hound of Ulster"
Elisa's based on Salli Richardson. She's in the upcoming movie, ANACONDA 2.
Totally agree with your heart/mind assessment, by the way.
Crikey, wouldn't have found that 'posting' page if you hadn't taken me straight through. I can answer some of those questions!
ANonymous - WOuld you laugh or smile much when your whole family has been slaughtered and you know you could have prevented it? It's called Guilt, mate, it's the same thing that makes Demona so insane. Mind you, GOliath HAS got a lovely smile when it shows up, I'm sure you're not the only one wishing it showed up more often.
Demona was given her name in City of Stone, the four-parter 1/3 of the way through the three years.
Since Awakening was set in 994, a squiz at the history books will show that the Vikings were out on world conquest around this time, they were attacking every country they could get to. Basically, Greg & Co were kind of taking one viewpoint of a historical event, like HOgan's Heroes focusing on POW camps during WW2.
I'm guessing that all those extra characters in the age list are actually in your stories, hmm GReg? You know how to keep us thinking, that's for sure, mixing up two rather different topics.
Hey, have a great night everyone.
I think that ALL the characters on the age list actually appeared in episodes, with very few exceptions. You may not be familiar with all of their names, however.
I was reading some of your answers and was reminded about how Broadway was originally female. I am an overweight female, and the thought that a overweight female gargoyle wouldn't have bothered me in particular. I think it is all in the way the character is. Broadway knows he is big, and his self esteem is pretty good, considering the jabs his rookery brothers make. He is smarter then he looks too. Naive, but so were the rest of the clan, it's a learning process. New time, new people, new culture, new ideas. I love Broadway, think he is a great character, but I hope one day they can come out with an overweight, young, smart female. Most overweight females are all the Miss Potts type. Mother hens, grandmothers, etc. I like the way Broadway is and acts, and I wouldn't want that to change, but I still want to see a similar female character one day, human, gargoyles, whatever. I know a some people blow things out of proportion when a female actress puts on a fat suit, like Courtney Cox in Friends. If your going to make the character humourous, it should be tasteful, not hurtful. Someone for people to look up to, not a joke, most characters should be. Look what they do to mentally retard people, Adam Sandler still does it, and it's still funny to a large amount of the public. (Not me.) Maybe it's just me about the whole thing, I am overweight, but I am secure in my look. I think the ones who bash the overweight characters are the people are unsecure with themselves. But there's my ramble. What do you think?
I basically agree with everything you've written here. And, as I think I've admitted before, I'll blame our original decision (to change Coco into Broadway) on a combination of cowardice and commercial interests. We were doing a show that was designed to appeal to a wide audience on many levels. But fundamentally (i.e. economically), we still needed to hit our main target audience of Boys 6-11. We felt -- and I'm not defending our decision, just revealing it -- that that particular audience could enjoy and appreciate a tough male warrior garg that was (at least at the beginning) both overweight and fairly obsessed with food. We felt that the same character as a female would come across as (a) less interesting to that target audience and (b) likely to bring negative attention to the series.
The conventional wisdom, for example, at toy companies is that female action figures don't sell as well as male action figures. Kenner would not have been interested in Coco -- as they were not interested in Angela. But they were interested in Broadway.
Another conventional wisdom is that no good deed goes unpunished. We felt that if our one heroic female was overweight, we would not be praised for it, but attacked -- perhaps even called misogynistic, which I hope no one thinks our series is.
We justified all this creatively with the notion that the Gargs situation was more tragic when the only female left alive was the enemy Demona. But adding a female gargoyle to the cast was a huge priority for me for Season Two. Granted, Angela is quite svelte, but that made sense given who her biological parents were.
My hope, over time, was to introduce the audience to a whole bunch of individual gargoyles and gargoyle beasts -- in both genders and of all shapes and sizes.
MONSTERS
I, too, thought the animation was rather problematic (a lot of repetition and stiff movements and expressions). The image-continuity suffered as well--when we first see the sonar tag, it's attached directly to the skin, but later it becomes a collar. Also, instead of the usual pole for steering and propelling the skiff, Goliath is now using an actual oar (of course, this is balanced by the fact that there is something rather ludicrous to traversing a mile-deep loch with a 7-ft pole). Finally, Angela did have a rather poorly done awakening sequence (although I swear that later airings seem to have cleaned it up slightly).
And yes, I noticed the similarities between the beginings of this and HERITAGE (there were subtle differences, but the overall resemblence is pretty big).
Despite all this, I still find myself comfortably watching this episode. Perhaps this has a lot to do with Tim Curry as Sevarius. He's just so fun!! And he has a tendency to get all the best lines. In addition to the ones you've mentioned, Greg (particualaly the "...finger down my throat" one), I'd like to add two more:
"Well, this shouldn't take long. I'm sure Big Daddy misses his Nessie-wessy." (Just the way Tim says that last part is great).
"'Monster Love!' How touching."
Whatever else you can say about the guy, he loves his work.
Anyway, from beginning to end...
Elisa's line about the water being too clean still works for me (I mean, there isn't any garbage floating on top of it). And the initial bump with the sub was good, too. I like Angela's pose when she puts here finger in the water after the group goes ashore (I don't know why, I just do), and her mention of trying again to find Manhattan really spoke to me (I had just started to wonder along with her).
I knew Elisa would try to contact home and let them know what was going on, but I felt like screaming my throat into a bloody mess when I saw the message saying "Tape full." Talk about frustrating. Pointless note--the first time I saw this (i.e., before KINGDOM aired), I was goofishly pleased that Brooklyn was singled out as someone to get word to. Just my pride for my fav character coming out I suppose.
The sequence with the boat (and the cameo by Margot and Brendan) is pretty fun. I like Elisa's calm, smug confidence that the whole thing is fake--and how, while she's obliviously comparing the situation to theme parks, the gargoyles notice the creature heading right toward them with somewhat horrified looks dawning on their faces.
It was several viewings before I noticed that Goliath had seen Angela's sillhouette (sp?) under water and tried to swim toward it before being blocked by Big Daddy.
The Goon Squad Leader/Head of Security finally gets a name. And we find out that Sevarius is at work in the loch. He has a rather interesting introduction here. Almost like a Bond villain, what with being heard only as a voice first, then seen as a sillohouette (sp?), then just a shot of him from the neck down, and FINALLY his face. Though, for those of us who followed the show religiously from the beginning, there was no mystery as to who this guy was (not with Tim Curry doing the voice). But I wonder what the effect would have been on a casual viewer for whom this was the first episode (something I may come back to later...).
Severius seems very...enamoured with Angela. The way he...handles her hair is very...interesting.
Angela's interaction with Nessie makes much more sense, and is much more palatable (sp?) with the knowledge that Nessie is familiar with gargoyles. Without it (the knowledge), it's alright, but seems a little like Snow White with all the animals of the forest just eating out of her hand. Thus, Sevarius' line is all the more hilarious (and even a bit cathartic).
While the gargoyles sleep, Elisa manages to find and tail the Goon Squad (typical detective). It was weird to see the Female Goon without her helmet on. Just a random observation.
I actually rather like Sevarius and Angela's conversation. Angela's calling Sevarius "the only monster here" may have been blatantly pointing out the theme, but I still like it.
And now we have actual confirmation that Goliath is Angela's biological father. Personally, I think that revelation is more for Angela's sake than the audience (or at least those who saw AVALON PART TWO). It must be weird, hearing about this great hero all your life, then meeting him, then being allowed to go adventuring with him, and then finally learning that you are his child! With her somewhat human viewpoint, that must have had Angela's mind reeling for a little bit.
One thing that really impressed me in later viewings. An almost casual throw-away line as Sevarius leaves Bruno to guard the base. He gives Bruno the gun with the implied order to kill Goliath if he "becomes too rambunctious," but he preceeded this with "It would be a shame to lose a gargoyle." There may have been a bit of sarcasm there, but I feel like the line kind of shows the scientist in Sevarius--the man fascinated by unique species.
I noticed the awkwardness of Bruno's "All right" line. Actually, that whole sequence was problematic. It took me several viewings before I realized what went on there.
For being an enemy, Bruno was pretty helpful in the mini-sub. Then again, if you're faced with an armed woman (you don't know the gun's not loaded) and a beast that could give Cujo a run for its money, you might be helpful, too!
I'm surprised the mini-sub didn't take any damage when it scraped along the side of the main sub.
One note: I never actually thought that Nessie was Big Daddy's daughter. I don't know how, but I kind of figured they were mates. Still, maybe a different name for the male would have worked better. Alpha, maybe? Or how about, Nester? NO! No, definitely not that....
It's a bit disconcerting when you see the goon at the controls for the tasers, and then, after Sevarius gives the order, seeing the doctor's hands on the controls. I do think Sevarius is the kind of guy who would try to do this sort of thing personally, but I think a scene of him pushing the Goon out of the chair and taking his place would have helped.
A good animation bit--the electricity of the taser reflected in Angela's mask as she looks on horrified.
And the monsters destroy the sub. It took me a while before I realized that those Goons probably all died. I really like that little revelation. Adds another dimension to what happened there. I also like how Sevarius vanished, and Bruno speaks of him as having "more lives than an alley cat." Nice little ominous bit that.
Actually, one thing I thought of a while back was how much Sevarius fits into the stereotypical, Saturdy morning Archnemesis role. I mean, he's seen in command of henchmen, he does the standard "telling of plans" with Angela, Goliath yells his name in anger when G recognizes his voice, he has the best lines, he vanishes at the moment of probable death, and a hero/henchman (in this case the latter) states that he will be back. I wonder if the casual viewer for whom this was the first episode would conclude that Sevarius was the main antagonist for the heroes. Of course, there is the mention of "Mr. Xanatos." You've got to admire a man whose very name warrants a musical sting.
All in all, while it certainly isn't the best episode, I find it a pleasant enough one.
I tend to agree with everything you've stated. Tim was just so good, it was easy to let him carry the episode, even though -- up to this point -- he had been the scientist/flunky. He had never been an episodic villain in his own right.
Good times.
My thoughts on "Monsters":
I agree with you on the animation issue (although I never noticed the parallels with "Heritage" prior to your mentioning of them), but I will admit that I thought the episode a rather fun one (if not one of the greats). Part of it, I suppose, is my fondness for British settings. (In fact, I visited Loch Ness with my parents briefly as a boy, back when we lived in Britain; didn't see anything unusual in its waters, though).
I did find it appropriate that the gargoyles would encounter the Loch Ness Monster at some point. After all, the gargoyles are Scottish "monsters" - and who's the most famous monster in all of Scotland? Made the same amount of sense as Macbeth getting in earlier, and for a similar reason.
Alas for Brendan and Margot! They run into the gargoyles even while they're on vacation! (Come to think of it, Margot also pops up briefly in Paris in "Sanctuary").
Got to agree with you over Sevarius's over-the-top performance; always a lot of fun to hear.
Count me as another one of the people who mistook Nessie for Big Daddy's daughter (partly because of the Goliath-Angela parallel).
I definitely recalled Matt's answering machine scene: either the guy doesn't clear out his phone very often, or he gets a lot of calls. At least Goliath and Elisa finally get a message home via Renard in the very next episode.
Sevarius's speculations over the Loch Ness clan (more accurate than he thought, after all) certainly become even more interesting in the aftermath of the Clans Contest (and like you, I can't help but wonder now where the local gargoyles were during this episode). We also definitely find out that Angela is Goliath's daughter (although I doubt that that surprised anybody in the audience).
I wonder if that ruined castle over Sevarius's headquarters was based on the real-life Castle Urquhart, at Loch Ness. (Probably is).
And, as you pointed out, that marked the end of the Xanatos Goon Squad, except for Bruno (and I don't recall ever seeing him again, either, after this episode); although I'll admit that I never realized that they were dead at the time. If I had, no doubt it would have impacted me much the way that the destruction of the Grimorum Arcanorum did in "Avalon" - the startlement at seeing another familiar element that had been in the series from the beginning suddenly gone. (Was the blonde female member among the casualties? She was the only member besides Bruno that really came out as much of an individual, to me).
At any rate, thanks for the latest ramble, Greg.
The castle is definitely based on Urquhart. (That's assuming that it flat out isn't Urquhart.)
I have more plans for Bruno.
I would also like to thank you for taking the time out of your day to read all of our questions and comments, even though they are hell on your eyes, and helping us understand the show that we have grown to love, and hope lives on.
You're welcome. And thank you.
well, this is just a comment of a sort. i just started to watch the show after all these years. it is amazing. here i thought it was just another kid cartoon, but hell, i am an adult and love the show! great work to all those involved in making the show happen and wish to see more!
Thanks.
KINGDOM
Like METAMORPHOSIS and THE CAGE, I missed this during the first airing (an episode spotlighting Brooklyn, my favorite character, and the Mutates, my favorite arc). Consequently, this was the last "new" episode I watched. So, I already knew that Brooklyn would be trying to start something with Angela and that Fang would be imprisoned for something, but I was left wondering about how Fang got in there and what closure there was to Brooklyn's crush on Maggie. This ep was almost like a long needed salve for me.
First, let's get the animation out of the way. I must say, with all love and respect, that this really is some of the least in the series. It could have been good--the movements are very smooth, almost liquid and supple. However, some of the characters seem to go slightly "off-model" every now and then, and image continuity suffers quite a bit. Aside from the infamous scene, which I affectionately call the "Two Hudsons and a Bronx" scene, the gargoyles seem to not only change positions, but places during their day of stone sleep. What, did they all have to get up at noon to go to the bathroom/get a drink of water/have a mid-day snack--what?
Regardless, there were some things I liked in the animation. One of the big things, by either accident or design, was Brooklyn's change. He seemed a lot smaller in the beginning, both shorter and skinnier. When he accepts his responsibility though, he seems to stand taller, and become well-muscled. I also like it when the gargoyles bust through the ceiling at the end. Lex looks especially cool with the way his arms are folded.
I was also glad that Cagney was well taken care of--but I already knew he was from THE GATHERING. I did like how the clan did not instantly know that Elisa was missing along with Goliath and Bronx--Broadway had to check out her apartment first.
Brooklyn's reluctance to accept leadership in this situation was nice, and exactly what I had wanted to see through most of the World Tour (too bad I had to wait until summer reruns). I must admit, I had not figured out that Brooklyn saw accepting leadership as giving up on finding Goliath, but it makes sense. I had guessed that he was held back by fear. The fear of doing something wrong, bringing everything crashing down. So, I was half-right, I suppose.
Brooklyn still has his crush on Maggie, but he's not blindly chasing after her anymore. Showing a bit more maturity (sp?) there. He can obviously figure out the best course of action to take (like not outright attacking Xanatos, nor letting on to him that Goliath is missing--I feel like slapping Broadway when he blurts that part out). Of course, he lets his insecurities get the better of him (until Maggie asks him for help...you're right Greg, a damsel in distress is a great motivator for the Brookster). I like how his wings fold into a cape for a moment after he accepts leadership (caping wings is something Goliath tends to do more than the rest, so perhaps as a result of that, it kind of gives Brooklyn that extra majesty).
Hudson, the old soldier, gently nudging Brooklyn in the proper direction. I like him here--not only does he get on well with the cat, and admits he misses the "dog," but he allows Brooklyn to grow. Hudson's always been a very patient fellow, and a sly teacher when he needs to be. He fits the "advisor" role quite well.
Fang--I already knew he'd be a bad guy, but I wondered when the schism came up. Fang loves to have power, and so he becomes, for all intents and purposes, a super-powered bully. I thought he was pretty funny, and a good threat. I especially like James Belushi's reading of "I'll show him who rules down here." Nice and dangerous.
Talon--I always found it ironic that Talon basically goes around saying, "No one is in charge, and that's an order!" Talon's behavior actually kind of adds to Fang's character--it gives the latter a valid point ("For someone who's not in charge you sure like dishing out orders.") I find it interesting how Talon seems mocking/angry when he tells Brooklyn, "You want to be in charge? Speak now or hold your piece!" I wonder what got him in such a tizy about leadership. I would have loved to see the look on Talon's face when Fang says "THIS army--and you're our first prisoner of war" (love that line). Maggie had warned him about Fang....
Now Claw was the surprise for me. I knew he was one of the good guys, but I never thought that he originally went with Fang. Claw's an odd one--he's the biggest and most heavily muscled of the Mutates, and yet he was one of the most submissive. I liked how he took no part in the fight between Brooklyn, Fang, Chaz, and ?, and even looked worried about it. I liked how he helped Maggie escape, and I laughed at his pantomime (along with ?'s reaction of "Boy, are YOU asking the wrong guy!") and his hiding inside his wings. I liked how he never used his gun, instead falling back on his electro-blasts. At the end, he finally grows in resolve, and develops the strength to rebel against Fang. I like the look on his face there. Very nice.
It never bothered me that Maggie was the only female portrayed here, because I had never given any thought to it before. Maggie is more of a "support" sort of character, anyway--she makes suggestions and helps in more passive ways. But she can still give a good tongue-lashing (she tries to scold Fang after he riles up Talon--I like the shocked look on her face when she realizes that Fang really IS trying to get Talon out of the way).
Some comparisons. Although Talon was ultimately captured, it was only because of Chaz and ? using their guns that he fell. Talon bested Fang--in terms of power and stamina it seems to me Talon was the better. The Mutates may have limited flight capability, but judging from Broadway and Lexington's dodging of particle beams, the gargoyles still manage to outdo them in aerial manuevers (sp?). Maggie does a good acting job, and so does Brooklyn. For Maggie, this scene is so much more fun now that I know she was trying to be an actress--but she still has trouble concealing her smile as she deftly unlocks the cage (of course her's is nothing compared to Talon's pleasantly nasty little grin as he exits the tube). With Brooklyn, I wonder how he learned to act that well--did he have to talk himself out of trouble a lot when he was younger?
While I'm on this tack, I liked the closure this brought to the whole Brooklyn/Maggie arc, while also strengthening (sp?) Talon and Maggie as an item. I like how Brooklyn comforts Maggie in the Clocktower and she doesn't flinch from his touch like the first time--in fact, she ran to him. Perhaps appropriately, the plight of her and Talon seems to be what compels him to finally accept leadership (though it takes Hudson's "Is that an order, then?" for Brook to aknowledge it as such). And then when Brooklyn practices his deception on everyone at the end...I must admit I almost believed that Brooklyn would trade his integrity for a chance with Maggie (only to, of course, make the right choice at the end). But then he surprised even me. I like the expression on his face when Maggie looks at him after noticing the keycard, and the smile on her face immediately afterwards. Brooklyn's head does bow when he sees Maggie and Talon's joyful embrace, but it seems to me like a gesture of acceptance as well as sadness. I'd like to think that, even though Brooklyn only had a crush on Maggie, that those two did develop something of a friendship.
As for Maggie and Talon: they really do look happy together, and comfortable in each other's embrace. It's hard not to be glad for them.
Crikey! I almost forgot about Xanatos! Now I know I'm tired. Anyway, Xanatos and Owen were great fun. All the good lines have already been stated, so I won't repeat them. The whole "turret-cannons" thing was rather silly, and I don't think non-projectile cannons would be able to fire when the barrels are bent. Still, I like the looks on X's and Owen's faces as they dodge debris after the castle takes a pretty heavy hit. How much you want to bet that after the gargoyles and Talon started their search, X turned to Owen and said, "Get rid of that security system and fire the man who designed it...and sue him for the damages to my castle"? I, for one, kind of miss that we didn't get to see Xanatos take advantage of Goliath's disappearance--it would have been nice to see how all parties acted in such an occasion.
Pointless trivia: Owen says, "An intriguing development." Immediately after which, Brooklyn says, "Perfect." The ONLY time in the series, as far as I remember, in which Owen and Brooklyn (both voiced by Jeff Bennett) speak two consecutive lines. I would have loved them having a conversation.
Broadway and Lexington smashing the guns with the rocks. I figured the audience was supposed to, at first, think they were bashing Chaz and ? on the head, but I don't know if I ever thought that myself.
My ramble has been kind of piece-meal, but hey, I guess I'm just rather tired now and stressed from trying to find an apartment in LA. I'll just finish off by saying that I really like this episode.
Well, I hope you've found a place (after two years).
But don't worry about it. Your ramble read well to me.
Greg,
This isn't a question, so much as a comment. I just rewatched Awakenings Part 2, and I must say it was absolutely stunning. The part that really sticks out for me is when the great acting the voice artist do in the opening scene. The parts that stick out in my mind are as follows:
"These bowstrings have been cut... there was betrayal here."
As you said Hudson was falling back on his training.
And Keith David and Bill Fagerbakke were excellent in their exchanges.
The animation during this scene is amazing in my book. Maybe not the models that I liked in episodes like Hunter's Moon, but it is still amazing. Each character display such emotion. I know Bronx is only a beast, but it even feels like he gets what happened. I loved the scene. Hudson knocking some Vikings into hay as he swoops in. Broadway using what he knows best... food! The action really picks up here and I feel so sorry for these characters. I must admit that in October 1994 when this first aired I thought many more died than about forty. Which is the number I think u said. But nonetheless it is so sad. I just lost a friend of mine back in November. So it taught me that if even one life is lost is just hard if hundreds are lost.
Anyway Kudos on an awesome episode.
Thanks. Glad you liked it.
I have been reading the archives and was wonderig about one thing about a Shakespeare character and wondering something about it.
Why is Calaban(presumuble Caliban)to be a antagonist, I been cheking about the Tempest and thougt that he would be more suited in a role of protagonist,given to childis presonality.
That's just my opinon on the issue.
You have no idea what I have in mind for the character, so it's a little odd to be challenged on the point.
But your welcome to your opinion.
Ah, a new episode ramble at last! Thanks, Greg!
My own thoughts on "Kingdom".
I certainly do remember this episode airing out of order; the first time was in February 1996, just before "The Hound of Ulster". (I also missed the beginning of the episode first time around, so it was a while before I got to see the whole thing).
I'm glad that Broadway and Hudson provided a home for Cagney at the tower; as a cat-lover myself, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see Elisa returning from the Avalon World Tour only to discover that her pet had starved to death in her absence. Hudson tending to Cagney (and admitting that he wasn't quite a substitute for Bronx) was a lovely moment.
I was, for my own part, a bit disappointed that Xanatos only got a sub-plot role here, although still a fun one. (Yes, the cannons could have been better designed, but he himself was in form as ever: "Don't you just hate it when people drop by unannounced?" as well as the one that you cited "Do I really need an excuse to have a good time in my own home?")
Fang made a very entertaining "bad guy" here; I got a real kick out of the scene where Claw hands him the key card. Although, for me, the funniest moment comes when Claw, after doing that pantomime sequence for an angry Fang, hides inside his own wings. I always LOL at that part.
I liked the handling of Brooklyn being unwilling to become a leader, for fear that it means admitting that Goliath won't be returning. One of my favorite parts in that plotline comes when Brooklyn finally tells Hudson to accompany them to the Labyrinth, admitting that it's an order, and Hudson has a little smile upon his face as he sees that Brooklyn's finally taken on his responsibility.
To return to Xanatos: when I think it over, I don't think that it's all that surprising that he didn't actually take advantage of the information about Goliath being missing. (Although, the first time that I saw "Kingdom", I was indeed expecting him to do some real searching for Goliath and Elisa, in line of his words to Brooklyn - particularly the "I wasn't aware that I needed permission" line - and was a bit disappointed that when he and his associates do encounter them during the Avalon World Tour, it's unintentionally). Because, when you stop to think over it, what would he really have done? He had no practical reason to go after Hudson and the trio (it was clear by now that they wouldn't serve him as henchmen), and certainly wasn't going to be hunting them simply for revenge, since that wasn't his style. Likewise, I can't see him attempting to take over the whole city in Goliath's absence, regardless of what "Future Tense" might claim; after all, why conquer it when he'd already been able to achieve the bulk of his goals under the current system (as I recall you pointed out in the Gargoyles Season One Bible)? In the end, Xanatos's doing nothing to take advantage of it made a lot more sense, because taking advantage of it didn't match his character and goals. (One thing that definitely makes him a unique "main adversary" in animation).
All true, but...
I knew, just KNEW, that there was a story in there something. I've since figured it out. A little late, I realize, but there's a good flashback to be had someday in some medium...
hey,Um, I'm wondering if you could tell me how many gargoyal
cronicals are thear? because I'm embarresed to say that I'm in love with goliath. I know its stupid but I cant help it.Oh by the way can you tell me who dose the voice of goliath ? because it goes by so fast on the credits I cant read it on the screan!
We made 65 episodes of "Gargoyles" over two seasons.
They made a third season, 13 episodes, called "Gargoyles: The Goliath Chronicles". I wrote the first of those 13, but had no real involvement beyond that script.
And the voice of Goliath is the amazing Keith David.
Hello!
Okay, I goofed up big timeon one of my questions. My June 11th one where I'm asking about the car was a total mistake. My brain apparently flipped the image and I thought I saw it differently. This hasn't been the first time my mind has done that. Try looking at it from my point of view, everyone uses their right hand. However, I use my left hand so I sometimes get right and left confussed. Well, anyway, I'll write later or who knows I might be able to come to the next Gathering, if my mom ever stops treating me like a little baby.
Choa, The Cat(El Gato)
I'm afraid I don't remember the June 11th question. So don't sweat it.
I myself have left/right dyslexia.
I would have just emailed this, but as there is no email address… whoever is in charge of the list, please leave this up for a little while at least.
"Disappointed" wrote, on July 07:
[It's about this whole "Ask Greg" thing. I love that we can come here and ask questions, but I don't love your answers.]
I do. Even when I don't get proper responses.
[suggest that if Ask Greg is a pain to you, that you simply quit.]
If he found it so much a pain, I am sure he would have by now. And I for one am glad he has not.
[You're not doing much good anyway since you don't answer our questions.]
*Points in the direction of the Questions Answered archive* Have you looked in there? At all?
The overwhelming majority of those are direct, clear answers. And quite a few of the questions currently on the waiting list are ones either already asked, or one fans could easily figure out on their own given the info already provided. We have the cast list for when most people were born, and their ages in certain years. It wouldn't hurt to take up a pencil and determine the age of a character in a certain year themselves if they wanted to know, rather than flooding the archive asking about it.
Or to spend an hour looking through the archive to see if the question they want to ask has already been answered…especially since it is going to take at least 6 months (a present) for Mr. Weisman to get to it anyway.
[So do yourself and everyone a favor...treat Ask Greg as you should be treating it or just simply drop it. But just remember whatever you do is by your choice alone. So grow up a bit, stop trying to be "funny" as you so often say when someone brings this up to you,]
He's not "trying" to be funny, he is *succeeding* at being funny.
You yourself said it- he is under no pressure to do anything for or related to "Gargoyles", and has not been for years. This entire site is for the fans, and I think we can all suffer being his entertainment now and again in return for the answers we do receive, and have a little respect for the secrets he wants to keep.
Thanks Lynati. The support is truly appreciated. (I had a feeling that on occasion I succeeded at being funny. I mean if you keep throwing out jokes, occasionally, one or two of them must earn a chuckle -- at least from pity, right?)
Dear Mr. Weisman,
After skimming through this site, then becoming completely absorbed, I felt a bit of gratitude was in order: I really enjoyed Gargoyles; thank you very much. It is rare to find an adventure cartoon that has a story that feels like some work and thought went into it. Cartoons don't seem to get (nor do they seem treated with) a great deal of respect, which always seemed strange to me considering how much power a story aimed at children can have (Especially just after school or on a saturday morning when the folks are still asleep; I remember Robotech and Dungeons and Dragons a lot more accurately than quite a few of my Jr.High School classes).
Cartoons and comics, along with their creators, seem to get an unfair amount of disregard, just because they are thought of as being a kid's stuff. I remember a blip in the L.A. Times (I think it was the Times? I can't think of any other paper I would have been reading with my toast) concerning Neil Gaiman. He was making an appearance at the Golden Apple comic book shop in Los Angeles. The person who wrote the blip said that a line formed around the block to meet this comic book author, and the writer added that he/she, "weeped for the future," since obviously so many people shouldn't be that enamoured with a mere comicbook.
This comment was hidden deep in the depths of the paper. Most people probably didn't even see it, and if they did probably didn't have any inkling who this Neil Gaiman person was. I understand that the fantasy genre isn't for everyone, but the remark seemed extremely unfair. Just because it is a comicbook (or cartoon) does that mean that the creator didn't put any consideration into creating it? It always seems that there are more unfavorable comments made then kind ones, especially concerning certain forms of creative expression. It isn't often that I have such an easy opportunity to thank someone for creating something worthwhile; especially in a genre that seems to get more abuse and disregard then praise. Gargoyles was a wonderful show. I'm sure there was a breakfast ceral connected with it and who knows how many toys, but Gargoyles was creative and inspired the imagination (along with giving a healthy dose of mythology and Shakespeare-the music was nice too), and it seems that type of cartoon doesn't come along often enough.
But what impressed me the most and convinced me that thanks were in order, is your willingness to treat your fans so kindly, and in such an engaging and open manner. I just stumbled upon this web-site and it completely sucked me in (so now it is way past my bedtime, but well worth it). I wasn't sucked in because of my need to know the mating habits of Gargoyles, but because the answers in the FAQ were interesting and eloquent, and extremely forgiving in regards to those companies that produced the show. I'm not sure if I could ever be so generous to those that obviously didn't value what they had. I'm sure you have heard all of this before, but I'm extremely impressed by both the creation and one of its creators, and just wanted to say, "Thank you."
Sincerely
C. Sewell
C.
You are very welcome. I'm only sorry that I've fallen so far behind that I'm getting to your message nearly two years after you sent it.
Hope you're still around.
Hi Greg, I just wanted to say I love the show. But I have a bit of a bone to pick with you...
It's about this whole "Ask Greg" thing. I love that we can come here and ask questions, but I don't love your answers. I don't think that you owe us anything, but you've got to realize that some of us come here with high hopes, and we love the show enough to ask you about it. You choose to do this, yet you shoot half of us down. I'm rather tired of looking through the archives and seeing a question I want answered, getting my hopes up, then having them dashed to pieces because you gave some smart ass answer. I much rather appreciate when you simply say "I don't know" or that "I'm not answering this now." Keep in mind that you choose to do this Ask Greg thing, no one is forcing you. And for the people that do pick at you and only ask things to make you look foolish or whatever, why waste your time on them? You could be answering other true fans' legitimate questions and not falling so damn far behind. Yes, I know I'm complaining, but if you honestly can't see my point of view I can't make you understand. I enjoy Ask Greg (or at least I am trying to) but it gets really hard when half the answers you give are callous and uncalled for. I suggest that if Ask Greg is a pain to you, that you simply quit. You're not doing much good anyway since you don't answer our questions. So do yourself and everyone a favor...treat Ask Greg as you should be treating it or just simply drop it. But just remember whatever you do is by your choice alone. So grow up a bit, stop trying to be "funny" as you so often say when someone brings this up to you, and take some responsibility. Now if you've read this all the way through, thank you. I appreciate your time, I know you are very busy. But just keep in mind what I said and take it in and consider it. Thank you.
I read it all the way through. And I'll consider it, but...
Look, it's a matter of personal taste. I know for a fact that some people enjoy (at least some of) my "Smart-Ass Responses".
I often answer with "I don't know", or "I don't want to answer this now." But even that gets old, both for me and for the readers. Some of my smart-ass responses haven't been too clever, admittedly, but I've had two or three zingers in there that have gotten almost as good a response as some of my more shocking and on the level revelations.
I don't want to quit. And I'll own up to that choice. But I still reserve the right to get annoyed every once in awhile. Guess what? I'm human and frankly, sometimes it gets a little annoying in this "room".
There have been times when I've been less than gracious. And I am truly, truly sorry about that. I usually get called on it. (Often by my brother, for which I'm grateful.) When it's pointed out to me, I try to honestly cop to it. To accept my mistakes, apologize, and then hopefully move on.
I don't think it's fair to blame the backlog on me alone. Our system is flawed, admittedly. And I'm slow. But I think my temperament has much improved now that I'm only answering two or three questions a day. I tended to get more annoyed cumulatively when I'd try to sit down and power through fifty questions in a night. The truth is if some of the posters here made even a slight effort to check the FAQ or Archives before posting their questions, ASK GREG would be a better experience for all concerned.
So that's both my apologia and my defense. I'm sorry that you're disappointed. But hey, it seems to be your name, so I guess it's a bit inevitable.
This isn`t a question. But I just thought I`d say that I for one am REALLY glad to hear that disney took notice of all the gatherings, and also of the future DVD releases. I`ll definately be grabbing all of those when they come out :)
Thanks.
I cant find garfoyles toys anywhere! do you know a place on line where one might purchase them. And thank you. I saw gargoyles when it first aired, it always stuck with me and I always try to watch it on toon disney. I'm 16 now and I just always wanted to thank someone who had a hand in makig incredible show!
You're very welcome.
But I'm afraid I don't know where you can purchase any toys... except that the dealers at the annual GATHERING of the GARGOYLES generally have quite a few on sale.
So come to Montreal this summer. *By now you're 18, and an adult who can travel.*
For more information, check out
Gathering Journal III
Woke up early again after barely any sleep. Took a shower and the bathroom floor flooded. My night gown got soaked.
My head was starting to hurt.
Went to breakfast with Mooncat. we were joined by Patrick and Kathy. Get this Patrick was not aware that Deidric Bader was the voice of Jason Canmore.
After Breakfast I bummed some tylenol off of someone. I'm sorry I forgot your name but thank you whoever you are.
We lounged on the sofas afterwords and I took a lil snooze.
Went on mad raid at the dealers buying a bunch of stuff: A picture for mom, cards, a Lex plushie and a dragon for me.
Chilled with Demona May and explained I wanted to buy one of her prints. We talked about the situation with my early flight with the con chair. She gave me a free clender.
Before number one I was able to purchase Demona May's print.
I was torn between the countdown and the Radio play, but when will I ever get a chance to see Gargoyles again? I don't have Toon Disney,((Yes I am aware of the irony that I live within a 20 minute drive from Disney World and I don't have Toon Disney)) and when the heck will I ever get to see Deadly Force? I had to absorb it all.
Changed a little before the banquet, had some tome to kill so I went to the snack room. Greg G was there talking about th Lilo and Stitch series that was working on.
Banquest started and I was seated with a group of Con Virgins.
The Food sucked, compared to the banquet in Orlando: Burgers, mac and cheese paste, and a hot dog. The only thing to drink there was water. Emily fetched a plate of lemon slice so we could make Lemonaid. Stood near Demona May to take pics of the Gregs.
As I changed into my costume I had trouble with the hosiery. The Pantys and belt was no problem. Mooncat laced up the corset in the back. I slipped into my shoes, did my hair,make up, shimmer and beads. Grabbed my puse and camera and shirt.
Luckily I did not come in contanct with any norms on my way to the elevator. When the doors opened everyone's jaws dropped and the guys drooled. I was a big hit. Everyone was taking pics, but really impressed me was everyone elses costume. Damn they were great. Aaron and Mara looked beautiful, and the crossdressers were a hoot. Lynati's was the best. Everyone was impressed with her feet. I had to touch the wings of those who had wings.
Well we were introduced and I shook my booty when I strut my stuff. After I went on I took some more pics. Then I had to get a pic of myself between the two Grgs, but the camera ATE it!!!! Well I gave beads away to the guys, only making a few flash.
Then I pulled on my shirt and sat amongst the others so we had our picture taken for Toon Disney and Disney Japan.
Followed Aaron and Greg B To Aaron and Maras room, we talked and I got registered for next year. Then I changed clothes. So I can breath and dance. Decided to finally draw something, but ended up dancing and Joining Greg W's discussion group until I was tired.
Bid fare well to Crzy before I went to pack and go to bed.
Next day Leo drove me to the Airport and I flew back home.
Great Weekened. Only had a few problems.
1. the headache.
2. I pulled a hamstring
3.The food
4.It didn't last long enough.
Next year I'll try to pace myself, and to bring a bottle of Tylenol.
Also try to convince my dad to come next year. He loved the show as well.
I don't remember meeting your dad in NYC? I take it you couldn't convince him. Hope to see you in Montreal, sans headaches.
Hi Greg. I started watching Gargoyles on Toon Disney over my younger sisters shoulder a few weeks ago and haven't stopped since. Alas I've discovered that Toon Disney are only showing about half the total number of episodes, so there are probably gaping holes in my understanding of the overall theme (I get the impression there is one - correct me if I'm wrong;-).
First off, very well done. I'm very impressed. Not only are they extremely well written and animated, but there is subtlety of dialogue and expression! In a Disney Cartoon? Indeed.
Secondly: just finished City of Stone. Missed part of it the first time round. There's only one thing I can say... "Oi! The tragedy!" If Demona is not one of the most cathartic characters created in the last century I don't know who is! Despite her brutal treatment of Goliath it's hard not to empathise with her, or to enjoy her episodes perhaps more than the rest (is this unhealthy?;-). Macbeth is the perfect counterpoint, another very good character and equally engaging in his own way. However, I am frustrated. I glanced down an episode list and couldn't find anything further devoted to them. How does their story conclude? I must know!
Thirdly: somewhere I posted an e-mail to a Gargoyles site and the owner told me a film had been on the cards for the last five years, but with no apparent progress. Is anything known that you could tell? I did wonder if, when the reply mentioned it might be live action, whether this might change as a result of the successes of CGI films in recent years. I wonder which would best suit the genre - CGI or live action? With CGI the original voice cast could be used, of course.
Sorry for the long message, and thanks for indulging a new initiate.
First off, as far as I know Toon Disney regularly showed EVERY episode (in order) except "Deadly Force". (And I understand they've started showing that one too.)
I'm not sure how glancing at an "episode list" (a list of titles?) would reveal anything about the contents of our episodes.
Of course, you posted this in 2002 and it's 2004 now, so I'm assuming that if you had a real interest you've seen all the eps by now. But, yes of course we did more episodes with Demona and Macbeth after City of Stone. Many more.
My latest information is that the Live-Action movie has been put on hold. After five plus years of Touchstone actively pursuing a script, they finally gave up.
Subject Make-A-Wish, Nov. 1999
Hey Greg.
Okay I this isn't exactically the best place to ask this but I'm not going to see you at The Gathering this year and by the time the next Gathering rolls around I'll probably have forgotten the question.
Anyway, my mother was telling me that _you_ asked her whether or not what was said about the road kill in Texas was true when we met ya'll back in November of 1999 through Make-A-Wish. However, I don't seem to remember you asking that. Then again my memory has gotten rather faulty lately.
What I want to know is were you the one that asked that or was it someone else?
Okay, another thing(more like a personal ramble on what was said that day) after we got finished taping the mock episode of Turf ya'll are all signing pictures and my script. Thom says something about his character Lexington and about Sheena Easton(I had no idea who she was then, but not long after that day I saw her on the Home Shopping Channel.)
Thom: Sheena Easton always said "The wee one is playing with his...weewee." I can't think of the word that she used though.(Something to that effect.)
Jeff(quickly supplies the word): Willyad!
All the while I'm thinking:'Tippickle men. Obsessed with that part of their anatomy! Well,I'm tired I'm not going to say anything. I just want to get to the hotel and fall into bed.' (That wasn't exactly what I was thinking, but there might be little kids out there that their parents do not wish them to know such things just yet.)
Anyhow, you get the idea. By the way in case you were wondering how I was capable of remembering that little chat between Jeff and Thom. It's because my mother accidently filmed it. If those two were a little more conservitive I might be tempted to use that darn tape as blackmail.
Well as they say down here, Adios Amigo. The Cat.
Hmm, curiousity is suppose to kill The Cat, I wonder how many of my nine lives I've wasted this time around.
I don't even know what this Road Kill comment is in reference to. It doesn't sound like even the kind of topic I'd raise.
And I doubt you could blackmail Thom with something THAT tame.
Just thought I'd join the bandwagon here since posting in these archives is pretty well the best way to give my writings immortality.
I got my mom to watch this with me earlier (it's getting easier to get her into a new episode each time) and she enjoyed immensely. I like just as much, it's a very "crisp" looking episode IMO, and the story in spaced out well to always keep me interested with new revelations.
- When it got to the part where Elisa disappears and we see Raven flying over head, mom mistakenly asked "she turned into a crow?", and I thought that somewhat interesting as that never occurred to me when I first saw it; did anyone else think that?
I think my favorite part of this episode is when Raven scares that hungry bear enough to charge toward Elisa, and then Bronx boldy tackles him. It's just a very tense and scary moment that looks beautiful.
-I like when Goliath runs up that fallen tree trunk in order to glide; don't ask me why, I just do.
- I just want to congratulate whoever it was who designed the Thunderbird; she looked incredible cool, both scary and majestic.
-I also really liked Raven in his Gargoyle guise, and I agree with Jim R., he really reminds me of someone else.
-His clan of Illusion looked sweet as well, but I was kind of relieved that they weren't real since their diversity would have been harder to accept then the London Clan. Leo looks a lot less like a lion then the wolf guy resembles wolf
- Sea Monster had a nice prehistoric look & I liked how she used the blowhole, but her forelegs seemed very scrawny for her to be a good swimmer, if they could keep her afloat. Perhaps she had very big paddle hind legs to supporter her, and perhaps I'm just nit picking and she doesn't have to look right cause she's being of magic.
-A bit more repetitiveness in how Rory Dugan will latter on be learning to accept his Heritage, but this doesn't bother me at all. Each episode was different enough that it's cool seeing their similarities. At least Nick wasn't some old relic of a Haida Shaman reborn.
- Incidentally, I didn't like Nick all that much. Didn't dislike him, but he did seem slightly typical in his rejection of tradition. A the same time, I'd really like to see more of him in the show, and think he'd make a great mach up for Beth, assuming he'd end up with Beth. Perhaps Diane will become a widow in the near future, but we all know, for the long term, he can't touch Elisa with a 30-foot pole.
- Just want to mention that I love the all Tricksters in "Gargoyles"; smart and subtle is the key. And I think Xanatos deserves to be declared an official trickster.
- I'm no volcano expert, but I didn't think a caldaria could be filled almost to the brim with magma, and not be in danger of causing disaster. I accepted this more in "Ill Met" since it was on a magic island, but does anyone know if a volcano can really do this. It's a good thing it can in the Gargoyles Universe, cause it would be pretty embarrassing to let the water flow, renewing the balance of nature at last, only to have the volcano overflow and destroy everything. And I'm assuming the caldaria would have changed a bit by 2198.
-I loved that last scene with Harry Water (not Potter), though it did kind shock me initially.
One more interesting thing is how Angela shouts "We've defeated the monster!" after their first battle with Grandmother. If this had aired after "Monsters" (as it does on my tape cause for some reason I wanted to put the two Scotland episodes together) she would probably have not made that face value judgment. Now I know someone will likely point out that the name of that creature was "Sea Monster", but I'm sure you know what I mean, so don't. Just anther fascinating evolution of a character in this incredible show; was that intentional Greg?
There's one book I have read about a year ago that has a lot to do with the mythological stuff in this episode. It's got raven, and the thunderbird (though they don't make any personal appearances, it does go into Raven's origins and how he became such a pest) but it mainly concerns this fear/soul-devouring demon named Sisiutl; and the one of the main characters in a native called Grandfather interestingly enough. It's called "Dreamspeaker", it's by Cam Hubert and I recommend it to you all most enthusiastically. It won't even take you long, it's just 121 pages (though I'm sure you will wish there was more by the time you finish. After we finished watching Heritage, mother took out the book "Daughters of Copper woman" by Anne Cameron, which seems to go quite in depth into the legends of the Natives of B.C., and I hope to look into it more. Once again that dratted show has got me interested in another of the world's culture, and now I'm wasting my time researching it rather then watching TV. Hey, I wonder if that's what Disney finds so threatening about "Gargoyles". <HMRPH>
I'll just add a footnote that will probably please you. Ever since I started spending a lot of time at ASK GREG, my interest in writing stuff has increased tenfold. I'm creating essays about gargoyles as well as my own short stories and I feel that I owe it to you for creating this topic in the first place. Now I only need to learn to make English assignments interesting, and thus do more of them, but I've passed High School now so I'm happy.
That was a bit lengthy.
It was always our intention that you gain more from the series by watching the episodes in order. You're desire to put the two Scottish episodes together seems counter-productive. I suppose you could decide just as easily to put all the Thailog episodes together or all the Labyrinth episodes together. It's a nice digest, but it isn't ideal for enjoying all the series has to offer.
I don't think it EVER occured to me for a second before now that someone would have thought that Elisa transformed into a raven.
And any time the show gets people to read, it's a triumph. Thanks. Any time the show gets people to write is probably a good thing too. (Though I pity anyone who -- like me -- gets hooked on the habit.)
HERITAGE
Here goes my very first episode ramble don't know why it took me so long (I had a "shadows of the past" ramble but my computer seems to have eaten it). So we come to the second episode in the world tour, I am a full world tour supporter Greg I think it served a vital role in broadening the scope of the gargoyles universe. This episode really sets out to explore the whole "all things are true" issue. I think the introduction of Oberon's children was instrumental in that goal. I really like the way you went about that, first you established the fay as a race via Puck, set down the ground rules, creatures of pure magic, shape shifters, vulnerable to iron, no messing with mortal lives. And here in the world tour you establish that many of the supernatural beings in world mythology were in fact children of Oberon. This lets you bring in Odin, Anansi, the Banshee and so on without fussing over backstory and the like but back to today's episode. This episode starts off nicely I think, Goliath's rowing along and Elias craving a hot dog all nice and serene the BOOM the sea monster bursts out of the water and starts mixing it up with the gargs. It's kind of odd actually in retrospect causes grandmother would probably not have attacked the travellers. Then again, they defeat her rather easily, too easily. The whole totem pole thing made for a nice bit of red herring. Raven does a good job of duping Goliath by using one of the most fiendish kinds of lies, ones that are as close to the truth as possible. Even closer than raven realises as a gargoyle clan will actually make its home in that very crater, they'll be abducted by aliens a few minuets after they hatch but its still their home. I never thought grandmother was a bad guy, she just oozes niceness all over the place, the thunderbird is impressive, very majestic. Raven cleverly gets around the non-interference edict by sending that bear after Elisa (as I'm writing this you still haven't answered my question regarding weather the edict applies to animals). Natsilane's personal journey here is well played as he comes to terms with the fact that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in his philosophy. Actually while we are on the subject I really am not too crazy about that Quote don't get me wrong it's a great quote its just that its so overused in soaps, sitcoms, advertising, hell even Lex Luther uses it, Kinda like the whole Yorick thing. The final battle in the volcano is very cool I especially liked the wooden totem beasts. Just curious are Natsilane's weapons made of iron or are they magical or what? Anyway thanks for another great episode. Till next time.
The edict applies to mortals. So I guess that includes animals.
They're magical weapons.
HERITAGE
I don't think I expected "our heroes" to get home after just one stop, so it didn't surprise me that they ended up someplace else first. Of course, even I didn't expect them to be traveling for as long as they were....
Anyway, I love the way Angela is sitting in the skiff when she notices the sea monster. It's a small thing, barely on screen for a second, and I probably only notice it because I think she looks quite alluring there, but it's something that strikes me everytime I watch this episode.
The sea monster has an excellent design, very unique, and the ensuing battle has some real nice moments, such as when Angela appears to be riding a wave into battle.
Of course, the sea monster appears to damage the skiff during the battle, and in the next scene a hole can be seen in the upper side of the skiff (not in a "sinkble" area, per se). So, how'd it get fixed? Well, Grandmother may have "healed" the skiff as she healed the island, or the skiff may have just fixed itself (hey, it can sink itself, as we'll see with Arthur later on).
I knew something was up with that raven when it seemed to appear out of nowhere, and then landed on top of the totem pole.
Actually, during my first viewing, I had been wondering when the subject of totem poles would be addressed. From what I had heard (and that was little) they could have fit into a "inspired by gargoyles" category, and I was quite happy they showed up. I don't remember my reaction to the revelation that they didn't actually have any gargoyle connection, but thinking about it now, I'm rather glad you guys went with them being what they are in the real world, Greg. Sometimes a spade is a spade.
Natsilane/Nick fills a fairly stereotypical role, to be sure, but he is acted well, and given some nice lines and facial expressions. I also liked Grandmother, and had always wondered if she was a figure from North American myth and legend as well. Good to know that she is.
I'm almost ashamed to admit this, but I had thought Queen Florence island might actually be a real place until I read your ramble, Greg. You can tell I haven't spent much time in Canada (aside from the area around Niagra Falls).
Ah, Raven as a gargoyle. It's an excellent design, I love his red eyes and the pattern of feathers over his chest. However, there are some...glitches in his gargoyle design. The fact that he has no tail, five fingers instead of four, and even his eye color differentiate him from the "normal" gargoyle design. More, in my eyes, than his having a bird's head. I'm not nitpicking the character designers, though--and for all I know, there are gargoyles out there with similar abberations (just look at Sora's two-toed feet in BUSHIDO)--I actually think those oddities are neat. They might even be considered hints that this fellow isn't exactly what he appears to be. He also has a nice entrance: assuming the form and place of the top totem pole creature he had landed on in the morning. Anyway, I kind of figured that this was the "Raven" that Grandmother had spoken about in the previous scene. When he referred to Grandmother as an "evil sorceress" I thought that maybe this was a POV problem. Two different sides with half-true gripes fighting each other. I couldn't buy for a minute that Grandmother was evil, but I wouldn't be surprised if she were a sorceress, and Raven spoke a story that seemed to resonate with how gargoyles were treated. I thought maybe bringing peace was the ultimate goal. Of course, things turned out differently.
RE: "Elisa as sexy when feverish and vulnerable." Are you sure that's not just because she's probably topless (at least) underneath that blanket? ;D
Raven leads our gargoyle heroes to the caldera of the volcano, and introduces them to his clan. I liked their designs as well--especially the wolf and eagle ones. But I found it extremely odd that they did not come out or say anything (WARNING lights began going off in my brain there, I think). Still, I did like Goliath's initial joy over the thought of finding gargoyles living in other parts of the world.
Grandmother uses Haida (is that spelled right?) medicinal techniques to cure Elisa's fever, but I wouldn't be surprised if she used just a little magic to put Elisa to sleep (I thought I heard a "magic-like" sound effect or something). And yes, I think the "...and roots" line and Natsilane's silent reaction to it are funny. Actually, my brother has caught this episode a few times, and always gets frustrated that Natsilane doesn't believe that "roots" and such can cure a fever. As far as he's concerned *all* medicine came from plants and the like. Well, I guess my brother's not too far off the mark--I know at least aspirin comes from a plant.
Our heroes start to search for each other. Raven's "disappearing clan" was a nice little confirmation for me that this guy was not what he claimed to be.
Goliath's little phrase "Humans fear what they do not understand. And what they fear, they often seek to destroy." It's a nice, truthful little phrase. Maybe that's why it has been used in so many other places (DARKSWORD book one, for example). The funny thing is, Goliath has been telling Angela truths all along that play right into Raven's lies. Sheesh, no wonder Goliath wants to rip the Trickster a new one when he learns the truth. I'd be pissed, too.
Finding the wallet was a nice touch. Another, earlier one, was Elisa wondering if totem poles were connected with gargoyles. Grandmother knows exactly what Elisa was talking about. Like I said, nice.
Bears by themselves are scary enough, but a Trickster influenced bear? I didn't envy Elisa. Of course, Bronx takes Yogi out with little problem (and manages to have a cute moment directly afterward).
Fun line from Elisa: "Are Goliath and Angela OK? Heh, right, like you're going to answer."
I think I may have jumped out of my seat and applauded when Goliath and Elisa hugged. It was so unexpected, yet perfectly natural between them (and long overdue I thought--besides which, by this time I had concluded that G & E would kiss SOMETIME during this season, and while this was not quite that, I found it pretty close).
The characters compare notes and go off to find Grandmother, who transforms into the Thunderbird at the (music-less) cliff-hanger. By this time, I was thouroughly confused as to what was going on and went to my old standby attitude--ride the storm out and see what happens.
One of my favorite bits during the ensuing battle: Angela lands on the Thunderbird, and the chest-face wraps its tounge around her leg and throws her off. The look on Angela's face is great. Then of course there's the bit where the Thunderbird's wings pass through Raven's illusions. By now, I already knew he was the bad guy, and applauded Angela's trying to dupe him. Of course, he shows up later so it's doubtful she was successful, but it's nice that she makes an attempt.
Finally, the truth is revealed. Grandmother and Raven are kinsmen of Puck (at least figuratively) and Raven shows his other preferred form. I like how the design on his shirt is evocative of his feather pattern in gargoyle form. Another thing I liked in this scene was Grandmother's quiet joy that gargoyles still live (if they don't thrive). She's a very benevolent Oberati.
Elisa shows the gargoyles to Natsilane, quoting Shakespeare for good measure, to induce him to take up the fight. I love Angela's jump to right in front of Natsilane with the shield and weapon. I also love Nick's line: "Wait! You're asking me to fight a creature of legend...with a stick. Get real." Funny, and indicative of his world view at the same time.
Natsilane's sudden appearance at the caldera always threw me. I try to rationalize it, as usual. When he takes up the cause and armements, his clothes are magically changed and he is transported to the volcano top. At any rate, Bronx, Elisa and Grandmother arrive a bit later than Nick.
I love how Raven gives his chant here: "Totem beasts entrapped in wood, the time has come to...do some good." I guess he's not much of one for rhyming.
It's a nice battle, though nothing particularly of note except for Goliath's playing possum, and Natsilane mastering the use of his weapons.
I like Raven's last two lines in this ep and the way his voice actor (and I am kicking myself for not remembering his name) delivered them. "Your people have fled!" Nicely defiant. And "This place no longer amuses me," along with his laugh (I LOVE that laugh). Now that you mention it, Greg, it would have been a bit better for him to fly off in raven form, but the gargoyle form works alright.
And then Grandmother heals the island. I liked her hair becoming the water.
A word on the repetition (sp?): Yeah, I noticed that, too. It's a bit of an annoyance, but there are little differences. In this episode the sea monster wasn't the focus, the companions were reunited well before the end of the adventure, and Natsilane is younger than Peter Maza, chose to live where he grew up, and doesn't have the "estranged father" element that Peter had. It's not much, but the little details help prevent this from becoming too tired.
HERITAGE is mostly an average episode for me (nothing that particularly grabs me, but a nice watch), and I think it says something that even an average episode compels me to write *this much* about it.
Yeah. Thanks.
Raven was well-played by Lawrence Bayne, btw.
And of course Natsilane was my first exposure to Gregg Rainwater, who's one of my favorite actors.
My ramble on "Heritage".
Truth to tell, I no longer recall my initial responses from when I first saw this episode (I particularly don't remember how long I expected the Avalon World Tour to last, or what my initial responses to Raven and Grandmother were), so I'll have to simply give my overall thoughts on it.
First off, I'll admit that the "legendary background" in this one was something that I was less familiar with than the use of actual myths and legends in earlier episodes of "Gargoyles". This does appear (as best as I can tell, at present) to be the first time that "Gargoyles" uses legends from a non-Western culture; up till then, the mythical background was that of the Western world (mostly the British Isles), with Macbeth, King Arthur, Puck, Avalon, etc. Here the legends were those of the Haida people, which I hadn't read as much about. I had some general knowledge of Raven, the Thunderbird, and totem poles, but that was about it. However, I did still quite like this episode.
Grandmother and Raven's introduction as specifically Children of Oberon, of course, makes it clear that Oberon's Children are worldwide, not confined to just one mythology, which was a good touch. (I noticed the pointy ears on both Grandmother and Raven in his human form, of course - one of the best-known ways of identifying someone as a mythical being). I also thought that Grandmother and Raven worked well in their respective roles - Raven, especially, who (as a trickster) got some of the best lines. (As generally is the case with tricksters). Such as "Oh, well, better make sure it's an uneven fight" or, in his big "sour grapes" moment, "This place no longer amuses me."
I agree with you about Natsilane's facial expression after Grandmother's roots line being priceless; it's one of the big LOL moments in "Gargoyles" for me. (Another one is coming up in "Kingdom", in fact - but I'll mention that one when we get to that, which'll clearly be soon).
Of course, since you released your "Gargoyles 2198" overview, we now know what some of your future plans for the events in this episode were. I still find it interesting that Queen Florence Island would indeed wind up being the home of a new gargoyle clan, converting Raven's lie into the truth (in a way). I wonder if anybody in 2188 was conscious of that (all of the original participants in that episode - except for Grandmother and Raven, of course - would obviously be long since gone, but their descendants - and we do know that both the Manhattan clan and Natsilane have descendants around in 2198 - might have preserved the story of that event).
I also like the exchange between Goliath and Angela over Raven's story, including Goliath's comments about how humans fear and hate gargoyles in spite of the fact that gargoyles protect them (and why), and yet how gargoyles still have the duty to look after their protectorate (something that he certainly lives up to himself, in his refusal to abandon Manhattan even when it becomes difficult for gargoyles to live safely in). So even an episode where the "new gargoyles" turn out to be impostors tells us more about gargoyles, which is quite a nice touch.
By the way, I did some general research on the legendary figures in this episode, and found out that the Thunderbird appears in some legends as a "benevolent teacher-figure", which does fit in quite nicely with it being one of the creatures that Grandmother shape-shifts into.
I also agree that it's a lovely moment when Goliath and Elisa hug just after the bear gets driven off (I also get a kick out of the scene where Bronx sticks his head out of the bush after driving the bear away).
It does all work fairly well, I think. I particularly like the look of Thunderbird.
Im your biggest fan of garoyles i watched every show sicne it came out till now i know everything about the gargoyles please make another show of gargoyles and let me join the clan i would be horoned if you would thank you for taking your time to read this
You're welcome. And if I can, I will...
I'd just like to say that the Magus' death is, I think, the strongest moment in GARGOYLES. The Magus is loved by every fan, and it's because of all the humanity you were able to instill in him in about five minutes of screen time. His tragic love for Katherine coupled with his guilt which almost seems biblical by this point in the series, and the enchanting setting of Avalon, all make the Magus into... I don't even know! Just recalling his final moments brings tears to my eyes. That trembling finger. And his reaction to Goliath's thanks is heart-swelling. He simply doesn't comprehend how Goliath could be thankful to him and it's too much. Good job.
Thanks.
To be fair, we had a bit more than five minutes of screen time with the guy... but I am rather proud of how we turned the corner with him for most (but I doubt for all) of the fans. Turned him from a true jerk to a true hero. That's always fun.
SHADOWS OF THE PAST
And so the World Tour truly begins.
Right off I'll say I agree that the numerous reruns did little to help the appeal of the "long absence from home." This might have been allieviated a litte if KINGDOM had been able to air when it was intended (it didn't, at least not on my stations, and prolonged the absence of the Trio and Hudson). I also think that AVALON PART THREE might have been a good "chapter break" (for lack of a better term) for reruns until the majority of the WT eps were finished. But then, I'm just a struggling actor, what do I know?
At any rate, I felt it fitting that Wyvern should be the first stop. Visiting the place where everything started, and bringing some closure (at least for Goliath) to an immense part of the clan's history. I love how he says, "It's home! My home." In terms of both dialogue and acting, it's very well done.
I also instantly liked Angela's mention of the weather in Avalon. A very nice bit of fleshing out (both for character and universe) that felt completely natural.
I'll say right now that I love the animation here, too. Granted, about half-way through the first act Angela's eyes seem to change size/shape and it drives me a little nuts, but overall it's just fantastic. I'm glad you and Frank stuck to you guys' guns, Greg, and made sure things like the cliffside and Elisa's wardrobe remained consistant. Shows the dedication.
I always noticed the awkward (sp?) moment between Elisa and Angela when Goliath instantly starts climbing the cliff. I don't think Elisa had been expecting this, but I believe she understands.
Goliath's description of all his old haunts--the Rookery (I just love the line "I was hatched here" for some reason), the caves--are just so wonderful. Detailed and told with the weight of one visiting a past lifetime almost.
Hakon's axe: I was always torn between seeing it as the same one as in VENDETTAS, because that's just what GARGOYLES would do, and a different one because it only had one blade. I suppose the "eldritch, spectral energy" of Hakon may have reformed it, though. But yeah, a mace (THE mace, in fact) would have been just ripping. Practical and symbolic at the same time, with so much emotional resonance.
But on with the show. I liked how Goliath admits he still wanted revenge. Very in character, and realistic. It sounds like he's admitting it as much to himself as to Angela and Elisa. I wonder if that (coupled with hearing her voice) made Goliath think a little about what Demona had become. Or I might be going overboard here. Don't hesitate to say so.
The "old wounds" line--yeah, that's another one I liked right off as well.
Then Goliath sees Hakon and the Captain (or thinks he does) and instantly attacks. I'm not sure if, during my initial viewing, I thought Goliath was going insane. I think I picked up that Bronx was sensing something and so was prepared for something more supernatural. Or maybe not--like I said, I can't remember. Still, I think Goliath may have gone a *little* insane when he instantly attacked Elisa/Hakon and Angela/Captain without wondering how those two got there. Just shows that even the strongest rock can crack given enough pressure in just the right areas.
The glowing...blobs, floating in the air. Yeah, by that time I think I pretty much knew what was going on, a suspicion that was confirmed when Desdemona, Demona and Othello turned into Hakon and the Captain when Goliath wasn't looking their way.
Keith did a lot of good line readings for Goliath when he begins to doubt his sanity, but one of my favorites is "I can't trust what I see!" The pain and frustration conveyed by Mr. David is wonderful there.
I love it when Hakon's ghost comes flying right at the camera (Goliath's POV) with glowing eyes and mouth while Clancy Brown gives that great, gurggling-sort of yell. That was pretty cool/creepy.
I always wince when Bronx bites G in the arm to keep him from falling. Very painful, but you have to admire the pooch's determination. As well as Elisa's when she decides to climb down after her falling (more than) friend. I always liked the contrast between Angela's shocked reaction and Elisa's strong decision.
Goliath's fall is well done, and I'm glad it took him two tries to really stop himself.
The Captain always does seem to be the dissenting opinion against Hakon. Even before the Captain demands an end to Goliath's torture, he gives Goliath the credit of suspecting their plan. Maybe, deep down in the bottom of his...ectoplasym, the Captain was hoping Goliath would escape.
The rock zombies. :) Yes, their final "death" was cool and creepy, with their disintegration, but their original integration, with the pieces seeming to literally fall upward into place was also pretty neat in my book. Their sounds were good, too, with some of those weird high pitched roars and the double voices (were those both Ed Gilbert and Clancy Brown?). I also liked the look of "Hakon's Gargoyle" with the large nose.
Then they bring "Demona" out and everything (literally) goes to pieces. I loved the hand turning into a mace, BTW. Very cool.
The energy transfer. Maybe the fact that the Captian seemed rather gloating when he described to Goliath what would happen made his chage of heart seem to come out of left field. At any rate, I'm glad that when it came to getting what he thought he wanted, the Captain realized it wasn't really. As for Hakon, he's a jerk but the utter joy in his voice at being able to feel again is rather disarming. If he weren't a bad guy he'd be almost sympathetic. With Goliath, I like how he chooses to win this fight, not by taking out Hakon but by reasoning with the Captain (even when the process begins, his first impluse is to remind the Captain who had wronged whom). And even if the Captain's decision to attack Hakon seemed a bit sudden, it frankly made more sense to me. Hell, it was the only right way! The Captain was woefully misguided yes, but he wasn't the evil that was Hakon.
"LINES of power!" That's what Hakon was saying! I finally get it now.
The megalith dance was pretty cool all around (concept and execution), but, frankly, it almost gets overshadowed by the character interaction going on around/inside it.
Then, after the destruction, Goliath again describes the Captian as a friend (and again, Mr. David puts great emotion into that line). And then we see the Captain appear one final time. And yes...my first thought was that he looks younger than before. Maybe just less care-worn. At any rate, he has a truly heavenly type of exit. Beautiful.
I like how Goliath answers the question of what happened to Hakon. "He has made his fate, Angela, whatever it might be." I just love that line, and have seen how it could be applied to all sorts of people and incidents. And it just seems right that Goliath would say something like that.
And then we see Hakon. I don't know if I would have preferred seeing Hakon stay there. I suppose I knew, deep down, that a bad guy like him can't stay locked away forever. However, I must say that, IMHO, there's something inherently scary about complete stagnation. Even though we don't know where he finally went to after VENDETTAS, he at least moved on. To be trapped (inside a rock of all places) in complete solitude...with no guarantee of "moving on" before the "end of creation" seems to me to be a singularly scary prospect. Still, it's nice contrasting the spectral Captain's final passing here with Hakon's later on.
For me, this was an excellent start to the World Tour.
Thanks. God knows our Tokyo counterparts kicked ass on the animation for this one. It seemed to work very well for most people, even non-fans of the World Tour.
Here's my ramble on "Shadows of the Past".
First off, of course, this is where the Avalon World Tour begins (if you don't count the "Avalon" triptych), which makes it a biggie. I agree with you that the reruns in between the three instalments of it (which aired, as I recall, in November-December 1995, February 1996, and May 1996 - more or less) make the World Tour seem longer than it really was. (Incidentally, you're right that you were able to bring out more than 18 episodes of "Gargoyles" in the September-December period; I remembered that the "fall run" ended with "Grief", and so worked out that it was 30 new episodes during that period).
As I mentioned before, I enjoyed the Avalon World Tour, and agree with you that something like that was necessary for the series at some point (especially in bringing in enough other gargoyles to make it feasible for the species to survive and recover - as I've mentioned here before, something along the lines of the World Tour was probably the only realistic way for Goliath to discover that there were gargoyles left in other parts of the world, given that he couldn't simply hop on board the next flight from New York to London or Japan).
Angela's correct (from the original legends perspective) about it always being summer on Avalon; in fact, I remember that the old Welsh legends about Avalon (or, more accurately, its "literary predecessors") called it the Summer Country or the Region of the Summer Stars.
In hindsight from "Vendettas", I picked up on the significance of that axe that Goliath unearths - and agree with you now that Hakon's mace from the Wyvern Massacre would indeed have worked better. Too late for that now, though.
I also liked that line (which I considered very poetic) of Elisa's about "old wounds".
The Captain and Hakon's tormenting of Goliath was very effective - probably the creepiest part, in my opinion, was when Angela and Elisa appear in Goliath's eyes to be the Captain and Hakon - but then we hear Angela and Elisa's voices coming from the Captain and Hakon's mouths.
The Captain of the Guard's change of heart worked for me (again, I especially liked the bit that you mentioned where he's looking troubledly at his hands as he and Hakon solidify). In fact, it made sense in view of his role in "Awakening" - he'd never wanted the clan massacred, and was horrified as to how that had gone wrong. I might add that Hakon showed, again, just how creepy he is when he gets into the fight with Goliath and begins laughing as his fists pass through Goliath - the reason for that being now, not that Hakon's insubstantial and Goliath solid, but the other way around.
Incidentally, the Captain actually appears better-looking in the scene where he's giving Goliath his thanks, just before he ascends.
And I'll confess that I'm one of those who would have preferred Hakon to have remained trapped in the cave for all time - I felt, when "Vendettas" aired, that it destroyed some of the effectiveness, in retrospect, of Hakon's sentence: trapped alone for eternity, with nobody at hand for him to hate. (Also, "Vendettas" felt anticlimactic on the Hakon front; in "Shadows of the Past", he battles Goliath by skillfully undermining him with a lot of psychological subtlety; in "Vendettas", he's reduced to simply fighting him in a slugfest with a big dumb werewolf - though don't tell Wolf that I called him that. :) ). But I do think that you made a good point about how, ultimately, Hakon would have to be given more permanent resolution than just that.
Incidentally, your treatment of the megalith that the Captain and Hakon were using, and your comments on it, make me wonder now how you would have handled Stonehenge if you'd ever gotten to do an episode involving it (especially since you mentioned having had plans to send King Arthur and Griff there during their quest for Merlin) - a pity that we may never know the answer to that now.
*I think it's appropriate that as the Captain is (in essence) redeemed and "ascends", that he is beatified a bit.
*I get what you're saying about Hakon, certainly. And yet, I really like "Vendettas" and hardly think that Hakon's post-Vendettas fate is likely to be any kinder than his post-Shadows fate. And although Hakon was the series' first big villain, he was hardly the most impressive of our villainous creations.
But, let's be honest, I just couldn't resist giving Clancy Brown the opportunity for a David Warner-esque tour de force performance. I'm sure I'll get into this topic more when (some day) I get around to rambling on Vendettas, but I think Clancy's double duty in Vendettas is perhaps even more impressive than what Warner did -- (a) because Clancy did what he did with a then amateur voice director (i.e. me) and (b) because the two characters he was playing (Wolf & Hakon) allowed for much less subtlty than Warner's two Archmages. (This of course, is not designed to take any credit away from the brilliant David Warner, simply to give Clancy his just desserts as well. And speaking of Clancy, he does a great Mr. Freeze in the new "The Batman" series.)
*The ideas used in Shadows for the Megaliths, were in fact cribbed from ideas I've had for Stonehenge for some time. (Pre-dating the creation of Gargoyles, in fact.) It would be interesting to see (even to me) how I handled Stonehenge now. On the one hand, I wouldn't want to repeat myself, but I'd also want to be consistent and I don't want to betray the notions I've had in my head forever. That's the problem when your brain begins to cannibalize its own ideas. A danger I find myself facing all the time.
Hi, I have really enjoyed your ramblings, even though I haven't posted any of mine until now. Your "That's my ramble, where's yours?" line finally brought me to write one. :)
Avalon
After City of Stone, I was really looking forward to another multi-parter. It's quite amazing to me that with all the expectations, they never fail to deliver, even now.
Seeing Tom as the Guardian was quite a surprise. You almost never see characters age in cartoons. Seeing Tom go from the chubby cheeked little kid to an old man is quite a shock.
The middle age parts were excellent, as always. The transition from Wyvern to Edinburgh was very natural. It must have been the 4th or 5th time that the scenes right after the massacre. It's interesting to see it from different character's perspective each time.
The ending though was kind of a downer. I didn't like the fight between the characters too much, too cliched I thought. It seems strange that so much focus was put on Arthur, and then when he is awaken, he is just another foot soldier who fights Macbeth. Obviously Macbeth is a formidable character, but I was expecting something a bit more out of King Arthur, like taking on the archmage. Then that leaves Goliath who has to pull the eye of odin out of the archmage, which was kind of a bummer from all the focus on Archmage's powers.
The magus's death scene was really touching, one of the top moments in the show. I too wondered if he was really dead, but I figured that it was a way to leave it up in the air so as to leave for some creative wiggle room. I was very happy to read what you wrote on that subject. It put that subject to rest and was how I thought should be. Thanks.
I'm glad most of it worked for you. Sorry some of it didn't.
My brother e-mailed me this link:
http://www.jumptheshark.com/g/gargoyles.htm
so I decided to check it out for myself. Might do a couple rambles on the commentary there, but today let's just look at the vote tally as to when people think the series "Jumped the Shark" (i.e. started to suck)...
Network Switch (SYN to ABC) - 8 votes
Never Jumped - 7
The third season - 3
The Goliath Chronicles - 2
They found the Island of Gargoyles - 1
Time Slot (They moved it to the morning) - 1
Xanatos repents - 1
Gargoyle of the Week - 1
Thailog - 1
Of course, four of those categories are really one and the same. The "Network Switch (SYN to ABC)" and "Time Slot (They moved it to the morning)" was for "The third season", which was subtitled "The Goliath Chronicles". So if you add up those votes, you get a whopping (if any number out of 25 can be called whopping) 14 out of 25 votes for TGC as our shark jumping moment. Since I have to agree and since another 7 voters (bringing the total up to 21 out of 25) think that the show didn't jump at all, I'm feeling pretty good right about now.
So let me obssess about the remaining four votes.
I'll try to take them in chronological order...
One person thought we jumped the shark by introducing Thailog. I don't know what to say, except that I disagree. I think Thailog was a pretty cool addition to the series. A great villain and a complex character. I'd tend to think that the fanbase would agree.
(I know that at this time the submit function here at ASK GREG has been suspended, but I invite folks at the Station 8 Gargoyles comment room at:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/comment.php
to entertain this topic.)
Another viewer thought we jumped the shark when "They found the Island of Gargoyles", (i.e. Avalon, I assume). Hard to figure exactly what the person didn't like about this. Don't know if it's Avalon itself that bothered the viewer or the addition of more gargs, or Angela or the World Tour that followed. Maybe it got too fantasy. But again, I have no regrets on this score.
Our third rogue shark-sighter cites "Gargoyle of the Week" as our problem. I can only guess that this refers to the World Tour. Of course, we certainly never intro'd anything close to a gargoyle a week. We intro'd four new clans (Avalon, London, Ishimura & Mayan) over twenty-three episodes (which initially aired over something like a six month period). But maybe Gargoyle-A-Month is a more accurate criticism. Did we make a mistake saying that our sextet (plus Demona) weren't the only survivors of the gargoyle race? Maybe. It does remove some drama. But I liked adding hope into the equation for the gargoyle race. And I definitely liked how the World Tour (and not just the new clans, but especially the new clans) widened the scope of our tapestry/series. But many have disagreed.
Finally, our last shark-sighter cites "Xanatos repents". But I'm not sure that Xanatos ever really repented. He called a truce certainly, but not until the fourth to last scene of the last episode of the 2nd season. And I don't think anyone really thinks that we jumped the shark during "Hunter's Moon". So I'm going to be generous to myself and assume that it was how X was handled during TGC that this guy was voting for. (That may include my episode "The Journey", but I'll have to live with that and the notion that if people had been able to see where _I_ would have taken David in subsequent episodes, they might be less inclined to even think he repented, let alone that it caused the series to jump.)
Well, that was fun. I'll try to tackle the commentary tomorrow...
"Avalon Part Three" ramble.
I really liked this episode as well, especially with King Arthur being brought in. (And in my case, I was familiar with the "Pendragon" part of his name long before "Gargoyles" came out, and was both pleased and impressed that it was incorporated into the episode).
I may be biased (being a King Arthur fan), but I do look upon Elisa's awakening of King Arthur as one of the grand moments of her career; she actually restores to the world one of the most famous legendary heroes of all time. (One other note that occurs to me; Elisa isn't of British ancestry, which does fit in with your intention that Arthur's new destiny, after leaving Avalon, would ultimately lie outside Britain, and upon a larger stage).
The Magus might be old, but he was clearly still tough; Elisa had trouble keeping up with him all the way to the Hollow Hill.
I very much enjoyed the Magus's character development here, including his guilt over his hasty curse a thousand years before, his shouldering the responsibility for it without complaint or excuses, and his unrequited love for Princess Katharine. He really did become a sympathetic figure here.
(Incidentally, in light of your original idea of having him accompany Arthur - the Magus really does look much like the way that Merlin is often conventionally depicted in Arthurian art - except that his beard's shorter than Merlin's beard in the conventional representations of him. And, for that matter, although he doesn't leave with Arthur in the actual story, he's laid to rest on Arthur's sleeping place at the end).
I'm probably one of the extremely few "Gargoyles" fans who *didn't* think that that flashback scene with the hatchlings was taking place in the daytime. I always viewed it as being at night (it looked dark enough to me, in fact). I'd always assumed that the fans who thought that it was daytime were mentally merging it with the daytime flashback scenes where the hatchlings aren't present.
I liked the battle scene, including the choice of pairings, which struck me as appropriate ones (particularly Arthur versus Macbeth), and also the bit where the Archmage and Goliath are teleporting all about with the Phoenix Gate. (One possible nit here, though, is Princess Katharine being able to pick up so quickly on how to operate a laser cannon, given that back when she lived in the outside world, they were using bows and arrows and hadn't dreamed up even conventional fire-arms. But I think that the scene where she defeats Demona with it makes up for that nit).
The Magus's death: I agree that it's a tragic and moving moment. On the other hand, I've long felt that the fact that Goliath is able to forgive the Magus before he dies, and show him that what he'll be remembering him for is raising the hatchlings rather than cursing the clan, makes a good consolation for the old man.
I was excited to see Arthur also leaving Avalon, and hoped that we'd see more of his adventures in the series (and was right, even though it was just one episode and that spin-off never got made).
And I don't quite know what I was expecting when Tom called out at the end that "Avalon sends you where you need to me", but I enjoyed the Avalon World Tour when it came.
And thanks for the latest ramble, Greg.
I kinda love going out of the three-parter on Tom's "warning". I did kind of wonder what you all made of it the first time you saw it. (Assuming you saw the eps in order and you saw Av3 before any of the world tour.)
Of course, not everyone was wild about the World Tour. I'm told that Jump the Shark lists it as a likely candidate for us, well, jumping the shark.
But I love the World Tour. And nearly ten years later, I'm even less inclined to apologize for it.
Not that you asked me too. You liked it. (Am I a little defensive on the topic?)
My ramble of Avalon 2
Avalon 1-2-3 are among my best Gargoyles' episodes. However, 2 was always my favorite of the three, so I'll just talk about this one.
The exchanges between Archmage and Archmage+ were amazing. Funny too, specially:
- I could put you back where I found you. - No, no, no, no. (extra no added by me :-) )
- Are we going to take the grimoire from her now? - Weren't you listening?! (the background music really play well along with this line :-) )
- What am I supposed to do, eat it?! - You are learning.
- 900 and 75 years?! (it only takes a frown from Archmage+ to shut him up :-) )
- Then they must DIE!! - EXACLTY!! (OK I am saditic, so sue me)
David Warner stole the show. Love the new oufit of Archmage+. He also seem like he is having pointed ears.
In the early script, we now get to know the missing scenes from the Archamge flashbacks (FINALLY!). Wonder what our two Archmages would have worn in modern clothes :-)
The whole scene with the arifacts being given to Archmage was great. We also see that he isn't very polite and very rude: he just snatch the relic without saying "thanks".
My only complaint is that the assault on the castle didn't last long enough. But I still very love that episode. I'm just sorry Archamge+ be gone after ep 3. (Save for some flashbacks, Timedancer...)
I'm glad you liked it. I got a lot of evil eyes over that ep.
AVALON PART THREE
One thing I forgot to mention in my thoughts on Part Two (and it's still relevant because it was featured in the recap): the Archmage's devouring of the Grimorum. I, too, found that a great image, and a nice way of sidestepping the "no magics" rule. Not to mention I love the little "[gulp] Ah..." the Archmage does.
Anyway, onto the fight.
When the folks at the palace decide to check out the Sleeping King, and Tom prepares to go, the Magus looks at Katharine's worried face and then volunteers to go instead. Yet another something I had to watch several times before I could fully appreciate it.
Angela and Gabriel check out the grotto (is that what it's called?). I like it when Demona jabs the laser rifle in Angela's ribs, and the younger gargoyle's first reaction is to elbow Gabriel and say "Stop it!" It was cool how Goliath temporarily overrode Macbeth and Demona's mind control by "appealing to their better natures," and then how the Archmage so easily reasserted his control. He had become quite a bit more powerful here, afterall. And then, of course, once things turn sour, and one of his enemies tries to take the Eye, the Archmage loses his cool and decides to start attacking NOW. His lines here are pretty neat and chilling ("They're my creatures now," and "...if they are so *eager* to *DIE*!" are ones I rather like, too).
It never ceases to amaze me how the Magus, a 72 year-old scholarly type, is able to make Elisa, a 27 year-old athletic type, ask him to slow down. I like Magus' line about being used to traveling alone, and how Elisa's mention of "the Princess and the Guardian" is contrasted with the Magus calling them "Katharine and Tom." His story was both a surprise and heartbreak to me--I had really thought from AVALON PART ONE that he would "get the girl" as most heroes do. As I said then (three weeks ago), the Magus had never looked quite so heroic. I had disliked him quite a bit in AWAKENING ONE and TWO, yet by the end of his appearance in TWO, his remorse kind of mitigated my disdain for him. In the first part of AVALON I really got to like him--you could see the depth of his feeling for Katharine, and his resolve and cunning with the way he saved the eggs and all. In PART TWO he showed how weak he felt without his magic book, and here...well by this time, the Magus had become a character I really liked and sympathized with.
Perhaps that's one reason that I became pretty much goggle-eyed upon learning that Katharine had fallen in love with Tom and vice versa. Then again, I did (and to some extent still do) suffer from a sort of "agism in male and female relationships." Of course, for that reason, I also applaud the princess and the pauper getting together simply because it now becomes a bit more unique. And I love the baby gargoyles!
BTW, Greg: rest assured that Elisa's lips were corrected in later airings, and on my tape the scene with the baby gargs actually looks more like a night scene (don't ask me how, maybe it's just my tape).
The Hollow Hill sequence was cool! I loved the Magus' spellcasting (now he has to ryhme like an Oberati), though I was of course confused until the Magus explained how he was able to do that. The "leap of faith"...Indy Jones, yeah, but I like how Elisa looked jumping.
And then the pillar lowers with (to me) some guy on it. She walks up to him, and says his name, "Arthur Pendragon..." It was at about that point that my jaw hit the floor and my eyes became as big as the moon. This was something I had not been expecting (due to my unfamiliarity with Arthur's "death") and as such became a huge, and enjoyable surprise to me.
I also like his presentation to the rest of the good guys. Until Elisa mentioned it, I had never realized that Goliath had never truly beaten Demona or Macbeth. I really liked this--it made them seem even more dangerous than before. And of course, King Arthur Pendragon, the legendary hero, reveals that he hasn't the slightest idea "what's going on." A funny moment that shows that, though legendary, Arthur is still a human.
I like how the Archmage looks when he says "I will wait here...for Goliath." An uber-villain look without a doubt.
Arthur's taking command of the situation and showing his strategist side is a nice scene (and he later proves that he is indeed a great warrior as well), and I noticed right away how (thematically) well paired off the adversaries were.
I think I'll follow your lead, Greg, and divide them up:
Arthur and Macbeth: The way Macbeth had spoken of Arthur in LIGHTHOUSE, this battle was only to be expected. I didn't mind Arthur's "manner of magic" as oppossed to "sorcery" (a little variety is alright in my book). I was surprised at Macbeth's sucker-kick when it took down Arthur. *That* part of the cliffhanger--Macbeth's sword at Arthur's throat--really got me (they were all tense, but Mac had the greatest warrior in legend at sword point!). Of course, Arthur still manages to defeat Macbeth (marvelously, I might add) with that oh-so-cool image of his ringed fist heading straight for Macbeth's face (the camera).
Demona vs. half the cast: I guess it says something that Demona needs THAT many people to take her down. One thing I love about this fight is how badly Gabriel's wings get torn up. The poor guy really gets battle damage here. Another moment--the gargoyles on the battlements fire arrows point blank at Demona...and MISS COMPLETELY!! "Not prepared...never honed combat skills" indeed! And then Demona goes after Elisa. I wonder if maybe somewhere in Demona's ensorcelled brain she sees this as a rematch of their previous hand-to-hand in HIGH NOON. Eventually, Katharine gets into the act in a very unexpected way. A bit of a stretch with her firing the gun perhaps, but still kind of fun.
The Magus vs the Sisters: I never caught the full meaning of Luna's "There is no future for you," but somehow I knew that the Magus was going to die in this battle. Something about his character, the tragedy and struggling. It made sense to me, from the moment he said "Leave them to me" about facing the Sisters, that he would die fighting them. His use of the magic is extrodinary, and I liked how the Sisters became outraged by his using Avalon's power. I also love Phoebe's fearful "Where is the Sleeping King?" when the Sisters finally make it into the Hollow Hill. And then the Magus casts his last spell. To be honest, I thought he was "all dead" when his hand went limp and fell backward onto the beir (sp?). I was actually kind of glad that we had a little bit more time with him afterwards.
Goliath and the Archmage (and Angela): This was a big one for me. The Archmage is pretty much the oldest adversary of the Wyvern Clan (with the possible exception of Iago). There is a sort of "epic" quality here with the way the Archmage and Goliath talk to each other (A: "I've waited a millenium for this." G: "You lose again, Archmage"--how many times have superheroes said that last one to their archfoes?). I remember wondering how Goliath was going to get out of this, until Angela showed up. One of my favorite scenes in this ep is when the Archmage freezes the lake, Goliath sinks out of sight as the Archmage laughs, and then the Archmage's eyes go wide as Goliath shoots up from the depths, giving a gurgling roar, and leaps through the ice. Finally, Goliath removes the Eye and the Archmage almost seems like he will continue being a threat. Then he gets incinerated by "magic energy" and dissolves in a cool death scene. Count me as another one who thinks the final line of the Archmage is pretty cool. There is a sort of sense of that "epic" quality coming to an end here. Goliath has defeated what was (as far as we know) the first true arch-villain he had ever encountered. There could be a world of meaning within his "It is over." And then the Archmage's scrying pool, as if to spite them, displays the dying Magus.
The death scene is a good one. In some ways, I find it more moving now than I did then (again, don't ask me why). I like the final exchange with Goliath.
G: "I owe you."
M: "You...but, I cursed your clan."
G: (shaking his head) "You saved my children."
And of course Katharine's grief over the passing of her friend from childhood caps the touching moment. Good voicework from Jeff Bennett and Kath Souci. It took me several viewings to notice it, but I thought the shooting star was a nice touch.
I always wondered why the "good-byes" seemed so strange to me. I suppose individual good-byes would be more realistic, but for a narrative...eh. I kind of got that Arthur would be visiting Manhattan eventually, so the foreshadowing was not wasted.
Goliath should laugh more. ;)
Angela's coming along. A new regular. This was something I had been wondering about for some time--if one of these new gargoyles we had just been introduced to would actually come along for the rest of the show. It made sense that it was Angela, what with all the angst her parentage would bring to light.
When Tom spoke about Avalon sending you where "you need to be," I kind of got a smile as I thought to myself "Oh, you guys aren't going to be getting back home for a while..." and got prepared for a world tour. Perhaps my reading about gargoyles in Guatemala, London, and Japan influenced me here.
One last interesting note. As with the previous two, I showed this one to my mother when it first aired. YEARS LATER, as I was telling her about your original plans for sending the Magus with Arthur, Greg, and your reasons for giving him a "good death" instead, she said, "Well, they also probably had to kill him off because his voice was too expensive." I, confused, looked at her and asked "What do you mean?" She, now looking confused herself, said, "Well, he was voiced by Michael York...wasn't he?" So when you see Jeff Bennett again, you may want to pass onto him that he does a good York!
This was a good ep with a feeling of closure and a sense of something exciting coming just over the horizon. It could have been a season finale, even. Just my thoughts.
I've never worked with Michael, though he's an acquaintance of my parents, but I know that other shows have used him, and I've never heard that he charges more than the typical going rate. I'd love to work with him some day. But I don't think that Jeff was doing Michael, per se. Jeff "created" the Magus voice back on Awake1. He's just phenominally talented and versatile.
The redemption of characters like the Magus and to a lesser extent the Captain of the Guard is one of the things I'm proudest of in the series. The Magus' story is sad, certainly, but he is so much more ennobled in his death, because of how hard he worked not to wipe out his sins, but to make up for them.
And on a more creative note, it's just fun to take a character who everyone hates, and find a way to turn him into a character who everyone feels for. It's very rewarding.
AVALON PART TWO
Ah, the Archmage's ep. David Warner is another actor whose name and/or voice instantly catch my attention. He really does fantastic work in any of his roles (his turn as The Lobe on FREAKAZOID! always makes me smile), and this episode is no exception.
But I'm getting a little ahead of myself.
When Angela showed up, I can't quite remember what my exact thoughts were. I think I may have been pleasantly surprised that here was a *good* female gargoyle, who was also *alive*. I'm pretty sure that within the first few seconds of seeing her, I recognized her coloring pattern, and determined who she was. I thought it neat that she was named Angela (the opposite of Demona, and fitting, I thought, with the mindsets of her human parents). Gabriel's parentage took a bit longer for me. I think, some weeks later, I was trying to envision Gabriel in my head and Coldstone's face kept popping up (or was it the other way around?). Anyway, at that moment, I pretty much recieved a lightning bolt to the brain and realized Gaberiel's lineage.
The beach fight. I thought it was very well done (and am a little surprised that it wasn't in there originally), with the Archmage making good use of the material. I enjoyed the lines, too (especially Tom's idea that the air might attack them). In fact, when I showed this episode to my mother, she got a great kick out of "You beat up a beach." Just the way David Warner says it is great, too.
I had never picked up on Elisa's jelousy over the idea that Goliath and Demona were actually parents. It's a nice touch, a great character bit, and I wish I was more aware of it the first time.
Seeing Katharine and The Magus as older was a neat thing for me. I liked their new designs. And Kath Soucie and Jeff Bennett did good work aging their voices (although when old Magus speaks for the first time, Jeff Bennett seems to sound slightly different than he does for the rest of the three-parter).
I liked Goliath's reaction to seeing "laser burns." I don't know why, exactly. It just struck me.
I got the Archmage's Time Loop right off the bat. I liked it a lot--to me it was (at the time) a different approach to the whole "time travel" business. This sort of "you do what you always did" thing was touched on in VOWS, but here it's really exploited for all its worth. And I think it works well.
Now back to David Warner. I still find it hard to believe that he did both versions of the Archmage during the same session. He's able to invest each with particular mannerisms and yet keep the idea that they're basically the same guy. His line readings are great, too. You've already mentioned most of them, Greg, but the "No, no," and "Nine-hundred and seventy-five YEARS??!!" bear repeating.
The Archmage's plan was also pretty cool to watch. The picture of the happenings in Demona and Macbeth's life began to be completed, and (as cliched as he may have been) the Archmage took on a somewhat more majestic tone with the revelation that he had orchestrated so much (with a little help from the timestream/Luna--man, that girl can be subtle). I would have loved to have seen the rest of his planned time stops in there, but what we got was still pretty good.
As for the Weird Sisters...I think I was more disappointed than angry when I saw their "Fury" aspect dominant in these eps. It seemed to diminish their majesty and mystique when they revealed how much "vengence" had motivated them to do. (Hmmm, actually that could be another "lesson against vengence" there, Greg--it diminishes the respect one has in the eyes of others...or something like that, I guess).
BTW, in later airings, older Demona's model was fixed some. At least her hair's red, now.
The Archmage's intial attack on the palace was well choreographed (funny thing--even with the gargoyles as flesh, if he kept up like he did, he would have won; pity he didn't think about that). One thing that really struck me during the battle was Ophelia (of course, until ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT, I just knew her as "that female gargoyle with the triceratops plate"). Her design was that striking, probably because of her unique forehead. I think I was one of the ones who kind of thought there might have been something going on between Angela and Gabriel (they had always been seen together up until now, and, like I said, expectations of "animated relationships" kind of led me down that path). Even then, I had always found the scene with Gabriel and Ophelia here one that gave me pause. I really wish enough screentime remained to get a sort of stronger "nod" to the fact that THEY were the item (and for the rest of the Archmage+'s travels--they made his plan seem even bigger, and gave a better explanation of his knowledge of Goliath's being alive). But, "what you gonna do?"
The "caption countdown" was something I don't think I noticed, at least not consiously (sp?), the first time around. But it was pretty neat.
We return, finally, to "NOW" and the good guys as they start to come up with a plan. I liked the little moment between the Magus and Katharine after M has his bout of self-pity and K tries to snap him out of it. One wonders if they've had this conversation before. Goliath takes Angela and Gabriel with him for a strike on the Archmage, and suggests to Elisa that she come up with a contingency plan (I'm not sure, but I think my mother may have said, "Smart Goliath."). I like the look on Elisa's face here--the phrase "in case this doesn't work," is never really good, but it has the potential to be very bad.
Then she asks about "the Sleeping King" (and I *know* my mother said, "OOoo, smart Elisa!"). Now, I will admit my ignorance and say that at the time I watched this, my knowledge of Arthurian Legend encompassed only the Disney movie "The Sword in the Stone," a few episodes of the Family Channel's "Prince Valiant," and various pop-culture references. As such, I had no idea about Arthur's connection with Avalon, and in fact had never even heard of Avalon before this (I just liked the sound of the name). So the revelation of who "the Sleeping King" was turned out to be quite a nice surprise for me. (As for my mother...I'm pretty sure she knew who they were talking about--she had read ONCE AND FUTURE KING).
And then the Archmage sees his would-be attackers, and laughs...and quickly vanishes for "To be concluded." I liked that phrase here, actually. It begged the question of how they were going to get out of this mess in so little time.
A cool episode, it served as the centerpiece of the "triptych" (sp?) quite well.
I'm glad you liked it. Clearly it was one of our most challenging. One that I got a lot of heat for actually at Disney (and at first among the fandom). People seemed disappointed by Avalon relative, I think, to the heavy cohesiveness of "City of Stone", but we were trying to do something different.
Avalon-2 was experimental. But then again, so was "The Mirror" when we were working on that, and it turned out all right.
I still think it's fun, but I also think that Frank was right, and it was a good thing that we Beat Up That Beach at the beginning.
My ramble on "Avalon Part Two".
I really liked this episode (and never had any confusion with the time loop, since I've done similar things in my own fiction, conceived years before "Gargoyles" ever came out; indeed, a certain time loop that I've planned in the book that I'm currently writing - although I can't say anything more about it than that - fits beautifully the part where the Archmages say to each other "You're sure you know what to do?" "Of course. I've watched you do it.")
The introduction of Angela and Gabriel's names (alongside the whole "gargoyles being given names" process that you referred to) illustrates nicely just how Princess Katharine and the Magus's attitudes towards gargoyles have changed since "Awakening Part One". Now, they're naming gargoyles after angels rather than villainous giants. (Although, regarding Boudicca's name, as we agreed earlier, they couldn't have been too familiar with the original Boudicca's career when they named the gargoyle beast.)
I picked up easily enough on Angela's parentage (especially because of that article that I mentioned in the "Double Jeopardy" ramble); I never even suspected that Gabriel might be Othello and Desdemona's biological offspring until I discovered Gargoyles fandom on the Internet, though.
I definitely guessed from the start who the Sleeping King was (of course, from the moment that Avalon got into the story, I was hoping that Arthur would show up - and was mentally jumping up and down in excitement when Elisa actually asked about him at the end of Part Two). It's interesting to note that, judging from the Archmage's response, even by the late 10th century in the Gargoyles Universe, Arthur had faded into the mists of legend (of course, the same thing must have been true of him in the real world, judging from what I've read about early mentions of him in medieval writings predating Geoffrey of Monmouth).
About the Weird Sisters: I was more bothered over the Grace vs. Vengeance conflict than the Fate vs. Vengeance one, for my part. I was having a very difficult time reconciling their desire for blood and vengeance with all their talk in "City of Stone" about every life being precious and vengeance being wrong. (It actually made them seem worse than the Archmage, in fact; he, at least, was introduced in the series as a villain from the start, while the Sisters started off appearing to be benevolent. Truth to tell, my response to their behavior in "Avalon" was probably not too different from how Lexington felt in "The Thrill of the Hunt" when he discovered that the Pack weren't quite so heroic as they'd seemed to be).
I agree with you on David Warner's voice; it's great. Definitely justified bringing the Archmage back. (I'm actually reminded of an episode of "Batman Beyond" that I once saw. In it, Bruce Wayne had a reunion with Talia, only to discover that she'd been "taken over" by Reis el-Ghul following his final defeat by Batman (off-stage, some years previous), who'd somehow transferred his consciousness into her body. During the latter part of the episode - after the truth was revealed - Talia spoke in Reis's voice, done by David Warner as per "Batman: TAS". Although I knew that that was scientifically impossible - a mere mind-transplant couldn't have altered her voice - I didn't protest because David Warner did such a great job that he simply had to be in that episode. Leaving him out of the voice actor roster for the story would have been unthinkable.)
And I agree with you that, despite all his power, the Archmage ultimately comes across as not all that bright. (My favorite part is where he has to admit that, although he's spent all that time seeking to unite all three magical objects into one big Triad of Power, he hasn't even decided what he's going to do with it. And he even has to be nudged by his future self into picking the obvious goal for a cliched villain: Taking Over the World.) I LOL when you mentioned that the real reason why the two Archmages can't work together for long was because of their utter arrogance.
The scene where he becomes the "enhanced Archmage", as I call him, was very effective - and the bit where he eats the Grimorum definitely jolted me. It'd been around from the very start of the series, and so it shook me up a bit to see it go. (I know that the book's real end is in Part Three, but for me, the bit where the Archmage eats it is where it exits the series). And I also really liked the "caption countdown". It gave a feel of approaching ominousness and tension.
I'm eagerly awaiting your Part Three ramble now.
Re: Boudicca. I dunno. A Celtic heroine and martyr? I'd guess they knew that.
Although I don't really have time to rewatch and ramble to most of the episodes as you do them (at least, not right now), I wanted to respond to one of the questions you posed in your "AVALON PART ONE" ramble.
With regard to denoting 'parts' on continued episodes, I'm massively in favour of it. The conventional wisdom you mention, for me at least, is completely wrong: "part one" tells me that there's something worth watching, or at least more likely to be worth watching, particularly as it's such a rare thing in cartoons, and many television programmes.
Although they were titled separately as I recall, I loved the multi-part stories that Disney did for 'Ducktales' with Gizmoduck and Bubba. I love continuity, and particularly given that the last 'Gargoyles' multi-part outing was 'CITY OF STONE'... well, it was a good move to mark the 'part one' at the beginning.
Actually, the last one was "Hunter's Moon". But I'm glad you agree with me. I feel, if nothing else, it's more honest. Not sure why that matters to me in this context, as I certainly am not shy about trying to mislead viewers with Red Herrings, etc. within a story, but at least there's no false advertising going on -- on my part anyway.
The funny thing about the first time I saw the Avalon trilogy is that I knew next to nothing about Arthurian legend. The name Avalon meant nothing to me and that the "sleeping king" was Arthur came as quite a surprise. And then maybe a month later my high school enlgish class began doing Arthurian legend. When we got to his death a big light went on in my head as everything finally connected. I even asked the teacher if the island of Avalon had any other special significance, half expecting her to say it was the kingdom of Oberon and the fairies.
Heh. That reminds me. Earlier that year we read MacBeth, and since City of Stone had already been on I didn't enjoy the play one bit. Mac as the villian just seemed wrong. Even so, it was the voice of John Rhys-Davies in my head as I read. That classroom had a big poster on one wall displaying the family tree of British royalty through the centuries, and as you might expect I went looking and indeed found MacBeth, Gruoch, Luoch, Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore back in 11th century Scotland.
That was some of the fun stuff for us too. Weaving all this in. Arthuriana and Shakespeareana are two of my favorite Ana's.
Well I don't really have a question my sister MaryMack has been here a couple of times and says that you were making references to how many licks does it takes to get to the center of a tootsieroll pop, well I know. The number is 1478 approx.
Discovered how exactly?
AVALON PART ONE
I liked having the "Part 1" addendum to the title. It whetted (sp?) my appetite for a longer and more involved story than usual. Plus, the "To be continued" at the end didn't piss me off nearly so much since I knew it was coming and had mentally prepared for it.
There's so much cool stuff in this episode, I hardly know where to begin. Well, I might as well start at the beginning.
The clan goes out on patrol, minus Bronx, as per usual, and Goliath--a bit of a surprise that. But then, the big G does seem like the type to want to finish book when he gets to the good part. I wonder what exactly it was he was reading (and how miffed was he when it turned out it would be months before he could get back to it?).
Bronx's saddness at not going with the others helped to underline this particular instance. You know, I guess it says something that I never realized how often Bronx was left behind. Well, this time pooch is getting exposure.
The Guardian. I knew it had to be Tom for the same reason I knew Brooklyn was going to be Second-in-Command--Disney Adventures (an article this time, as oppossed to a comic). The article also said that the show would feature gargoyles native to other parts of the world, including (fanfare, please) Avalon! So I had some idea of what to expect there as well. But I will say that Tom the Guardian's entrance was quite impressive. I love his armor, and the way he refers to the lead ruffian as "sirrah."
Laws of TV and movies at work: within about two seconds of the breaking of the store window, the police show up. Two patrol cars, and 2-3 cops on foot (including Morgan). Talk about being in the right place at the right time.
Morgan's interaction with the Guardian is great. Tom's initial accusation of them being lawless undercut by Morgan's identifying himself, and Tom's rather knightly way of submitting to the law. A nice dignified bit until Morgan drops the sword.
Morgan talks to Elisa, and I like the way he describes the Guardian as "differnt, good somehow." Morgan definitely has a rather insightful and perceptive quality to him.
I didn't pick up on the meeting by Belvedere castle as a clue of any kind, unfortunately. Nor did I believe that when Tom was referring to the "eggs" he meant it in the literal sense of the term (after all, gargoyle eggs hatch after ten years (this was in the article, too) so they must have grown at least a little bit).
Let me just finish with the article now--the revelation that gargoyles existed in other parts of the world really excited me. Now the characters were no longer "the last of their kind," so this was something of a new approach in a series for me (I hadn't gotten to see that much of the GUMMI BEARS). This turning upside down of what my expectations had been at the beginning of the series was really fun.
Back to the show, the Guardian eventually mentions the Archmage. This was a complete and total surprise to me. He was dead! How could he come back like this? If I hadn't been hooked already (and I was) this would have clinched it.
The flashback starts. It's interesting to contrast Tom's traveling in the back of the cart with the eggs here to Demona's memory of him sitting up front (aah, it's probably just two different animation studios/storyboards, but I like the idea of a POV prism). Tom's solemnity (sp?) about his vow is rather touching in its way.
I liked the little scene with Tom and the Magus pushing the cart through the rain. They were becoming friends as well, it seems.
First impressions at the dinner: The King was a nice enough gentleman (voiced by Morgan Shepard), while Constantine's brief appearance here was not enough for me to form any opinions about him yet. Finella aroused some distrust in me for some reason...maybe her hollowed cheeks (that's how they looked to me), or the hint of insincerity in her voice when she spoke to the king, OR the scowl she gave when Constantine proposed the toast to Katharine. Anyway, next to her there was Maol Chalvim--who definitely looked more than a little sinister to me. This might have something to do with his sour expression, hollowed face, stylized eyebrows and Xanatosian beard. Suffice to say, their turning out to be "good guys" in this episode surprised me a bit (but the knowledge that Maol Chalvim would kill his cousin and take the throne did not surprise me at all).
I liked that people (at least Maol Chalvim) tended to look askance at Katharine's care for the gargoyle eggs. And Maol Chalvim already suspected Constantine's treachery ("they can smell their own" sort of thing I guess). I liked Constantine's scowl after Maol's thinly veiled insult.
Details. You just gotta love details. The Magus is writing in the Grimorum (the story of his cursing the gargoyles, perhaps?) and stops to look up when Constantine enters. Then he remains in the background while the future-usurper talks with Katharine. He senses the same thing Finella does (not that Constantine does much to hide it).
I love how when Finella mentions the King's proposal of marriage to her, Constantine seems somewhat incredulous that she has not accepted. A telling bit of character that.
Then Constantine murders Kenneth (who saw that coming? *countless hands raise into the air*). I liked how Finella turned out to be a more sympathetic figure here, through her devestation at this turn of events. And Tom (details--the tears down his cheeks) sees it all. I know kids had to grow up more quickly then, but MAN! Seeing that has got to affect a kid, no matter what era.
Scenes of the usurpation occur, and of course show what a jerk Constantine is. Maol Chalvim kills a guard (off-screen, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened), and tries to get Katharine to flee. You're right, Greg, he is rather heroic here actually. I didn't see any smile though, after Katharine tells him to go for the last time. His face registers more a shocked expression. It's still an awkward transistion (especially because you only see it for half a second), but better than a smile.
Constantine tries to force Katharine into marriage, and it's only Mary and Tom that keep the Magus from rushing him (details again, yay!) while Finella runs away in, what seemed to me, a rather embarrassed fasion (one wonders if she, *ahem* gave more to Constantine than that one kiss).
About this scene, where Constantine is crowned, I find a contrast between this and Macbeth's back in CITY OF STONE. When Macbeth did it, I really believed that he meant those words. With Constantine, it seemed more of a PR thing. That could be just because we already knew what those characters were like before they took the oath, but I also think that Ian Buchanan just does good voice work here (and throughout the episode).
RE: The amount of broken crockery. Maybe Tom went and broke it for the plan to work. Or, hey, maybe Constantine and his boys are just a rowdy lot who like to break things (now THAT would be ironic). I like how the "magical glow" begins and ends with the eggs and their dopplegangers.
I loved the romantic moment between the Magus and Katharine in the next scene where he promises to take her beyond the ends of the earth. I did expect them to wind up together. Actually, I kind of expected it from AWAKENING PART 5--his anger there seemed very much like that of a man who lost his love.
Finella shows up and offers her help in the matter. I like her admission that she does it "more to hurt Constantine." True to the character, and a nice moment in an animated series.
Then the Magus tells us the "spiked-cider" plan. Actually, the Magus really gets to shine as a hero in this episode. He comes up with the plan to get the eggs to safety, and then, once Finella is brought in, comes up with the method to get Katharine out of the castle. Throughout all this, he has planned to take them all to Avalon, and when the Weird Sisters block their path, he is able to defeat them, not just with magic, but by skillfully weilding the steering pole as well. And then, for love, he gives up his magic book. It really isn't surprising that a fair number of fans really like this guy. Once he got past that "bigot" problem, he could be quite dashing and romantic (then again, since some folks take the same view of Brooklyn, maybe it's got something to do with Jeff Bennett).
I liked how Finella offered to take the book. This was a surprisingly noble gesture on her part. And not one that I expected. And then Mary offers to stay with her. I love her line, "One woman alone could get into trouble. TWO women can cause plenty of it." Mary is an interesting character. Like Katharine, once she got past the "bigot" problem she was quite a good judge of character. Also quite daring in her own right. I hadn't even noticed Kath Soucie voiced Mary until...I want to say the credits, but when Mary said "I'll stay with Finella" I half-thought that came from Katharine (leaving me very confused), until Mary's image popped up on the screen again. So that was how I figured they were both voiced by the same woman. Still, excellent work otherwise. Kind of sad that Mary and Tom had to separate, but then too, boys tended to become men much earlier in those days.
Back in the present, the Guardian spells out the time difference (fair enough) and Goliath asks about the Archmage, mentioning how that cad died before Tom was even born (a nod to continuity I was grateful for). Then we get to Avalon, and get our first glimpse of the new clan. I think I only recognized that we had a female, a male, and a beast, before Goliath's surprised face filled the screen. And excellent little cliffhanger that left me eager for the next episode as well.
Glad you liked it. I wonder if that Disney Adventures article enhanced or detracted from your appreciation of the actual episode.
It of course goes without saying that Jeff Bennett and Kath Soucie were invaluable to us. Jeff is so charismatic, no matter who he's playing. And so versatile. In that episode alone, he's Brooklyn, the Magus & Maol Chalvim. Kath is Katharine, Mary and all three Weird Sisters. (She got paid twice, in case anyone's wondering.) We were blessed with a stunning cast in general, but Jeff & Kath were two of our absolute rocks.
AVALON, PART ONE
I agree with Todd that, in principle, I like that you identified the multi-parters as such. Looking back, it feels more honest and manageable that way. But I gotta admit, upon the FIRST viewing, the labeling always made "Part One" stick out. Once you knew it was a multi-parter, you set yourself up for something big, so it was less fluid. For instance, in "Avolon, Part One," I knew it was a multi-parter, so when they arrive at the shore of Avalon and glimpse the "eggs" I don't blow soda out of my nose, but rather say, "Oh, so they're finally getting around to tieing up that loose-end about the Wyvern eggs. Cool." For me, at least, the honesty of telling the viewer ahead of time that it is going to be a multi-parter "spoiled" me, so that I expected something big, rather than getting it rewarded to me.
So, basically, you're saying 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other?
My thoughts on "Avalon Part One".
First off, a little about the eggs. I honestly hadn't expected to see anything further with the eggs at this point. The reason was that I'd always assumed that the eggs were indeed all gone, as Xanatos had claimed in "Awakening Part Two", even after we found out what he was really like, for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the Awakening. Since I didn't think it likely that gargoyles live naturally for a thousand years, my assumption always was that the eggs had hatched long ago and that the gargoyles that had hatched from them had grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before as well. I hadn't taken into account the possibility of a place where time moved slower.
(Of course, thinking over it some more, I should have expected the eggs to return, simply because, if they weren't going to, their inclusion to date would have been almost pointless. After all, they'd had no real impact on the storyline in "Awakening" - the mere fact that the video version was able to edit them out is proof enough of that - so that would have to mean that something further with them would have to be done, or else why include them in "Awakening" at all?)
Regarding your multi-parter comments: I also prefer it when the first episode of a multi-parter clearly labels itself as "Part One". That way, I'm already prepared for the "To Be Continued" part. So I'm glad that you always labeled the multi-parters as such.
I was a bit amused to notice the Brigadoon alternative to Avalon, in light of the fact that you did manage to use Brigadoon as the Avalon-substitute in your "Gargoyles meet Captain Atom" story. And, yep, I was definitely looking out for King Arthur to show up at some point in this story, given that the thing that Avalon is most famous for is being his resting-place. (More about that in my ramble on Part Two when it comes).
Needless to say, I enjoyed the flashback. More 10th century Scotland! And more real Scottish history! In some ways, it was even more fun than the Macbeth backstory in "City of Stone"; after all, I already knew about the historical Macbeth before "Gargoyles" ever came out, but I'd never heard of Kenneth II and Constantine III before. After seeing this episode, I eagerly looked up everything on them that I could at the local library (although I wasn't able to find much, thanks to the scanty records for this part of Scottish history).
Constantine definitely struck me as shrewd when he provided a very convincing "innocent reason" for the secret meeting in the drying-house (the argument that it would be better for Kenneth's dignity to have Finella turn down his suit in private, rather than before his entire court). I thought he made a good antagonist here, even if for only one episode.
(I haven't seen the McKellen "Richard III" movie, by the way, but I do have a book that McKellen wrote about the making of it, including the screenplay, which I found fascinating reading.)
I also liked the mention of Michaelmas, which added to the medieval flavor of the story. (It's things like this that make me regret the fact that you never got to make the "Dark Ages" spin-off. Of course, I suppose that an animated series set entirely in 10th century Scotland wouldn't be all that commercially viable, more's the pity.)
I'm looking forward to your rambles on Part Two and Part Three, as well.
I have that same McKellen book. I've seen the movie of course, but I found the screenplay and his commentary on how and why he made the decisions he made, very informative.
I don't know that Dark Ages wouldn't be commercially viable. I do know it's tough to convince Network Executives that it's commercially viable.
THE PRICE
I really like this ep. I liked it when I first saw it and I still like it now.
It's nice to have Hudson in the spotlight again, and Xanatos' quest for immortality is expanded upon while, just for good measure, we get a greater glimpse into Owen's character. Yeesh! Quite a lot stuffed into this ep.
I didn't begin to guess that "Macbeth" wasn't the real deal until the second time he appeared. His "Trophies" line, though not in character for the old Scottish noble, as Todd pointed out, seemed to me like it could have just been something of a joke. But when he showed up the second time, and repeated a line he had said before, in the exact same way, I began to figure out he/it was a robot. I did love how it "died"--Goliath punching his arm straight through its gut, and then the eye-pop, as the voice runs down, followed by a final explosion! I loved it.
When "Hudson" didn't wake up along with the other gargoyles, I was completely convinced that we were seeing the real Hudson under another magic spell. I had not read the Disney Adventures comic by Mr. Nordling, and consequently suspected nothing. At the end of Act I, I did indeed see Hudson's appearance in the cage as taking place within his mind. It wasn't until Act II had begun, and I saw the strange floor underneath the cage (not to mention the appearance of Xanatos and Owen), that I realized here was the real Hudson, and the one the other's were looking after was a decoy.
Hudson and Xanatos did have some great interaction here. I don't know about them being better adversaries than Goliath and (David) Xanatos, but there is something there. I think Hudson can figure out what really scares Xanatos because he himself is already there (the possibility that he was the last survivor of his generation even before the massacre leads to a certain viewpoint on the inevitability of death). Also, they throw their own quips and insults back and forth quite a bit.
Then too, there's Hudson's attitude towards Xanatos' plans. When X takes the stone skin, Hudson just asks "So, are ya through with me?" This is interesting because Goliath's most probable reaction, IMHO, would be to ask what game Xanatos was playing now. And at the end, Goliath would have probably destroyed the cauldron to keep Xanatos from any power it might bestow (and possibly just to spite X as well). Hudson, however, doesn't see any point to destroying the cauldron, and just wants to go home. He even shares a profound thought with Xanatos. And Xanatos, for his part, let's Hudson go in a rather honorable fashion. As I said, I don't know if they're "better natural adversaries" than Goliath and David, but Hudson and X do have an undeniable dynamic here.
Somehow, I knew that Goliath would suggest trying to seek out Demona at some point. I mean, she is the only sorceress they know of. I liked how that was worked in--a last resort sort-of thing.
Broadway's turning to stone in mid-air was something I had been waiting for. Well, not Broadway specifically, but one of the gargoyles, of course--it had to happen sooner or later. I kind of figured the box on the crane had something in it to save BW from shattering, but personally, I would have preferred "Extra Comfy-Soft Mattresses" (sp?) to the rolled up Persian rugs. Eh, minor quibble.
I didn't much care that the Hudson statue was blown up because I already knew about Hudson's being alive. I did, however, like the way the various reactions were portrayed. Goliath's rage was awesome. One of his most chilling moments in the series.
The "semi-Wind Ceremony" for Hudson, was nicely done, and nicely undercut by the old codger himself. I also liked his little remark about the head. On that track, I always enjoyed the way Hudson escaped from Xanatos and all ("Swordless maybe, helpless NEVER!"--too cool).
Although I thought Owen was cool, this episode was the one that really impressed me in regards to his character. I was completely stupefied when Owen just went up and dunked his arm into the Cauldron, resulting in it turning to stone. He had been permanently changed. Another one of the cool things about GARGOYLES: changes occur and cannot be reversed. I silently applauded the episode for daring to do this with one of its characters.
Of course, this aired out of order in my area, and although I missed THE CAGE, I saw DOUBLE JEOPARDY after this and noted that Owen's left hand was still flesh. Although I considered this a possible oversight, maybe somewhere at the back of my mind I realized that this just aired early, so I didn't mind too much.
OTHER NOTES: Lot's of fun lines and exchanges here. All those already mentioned, as well as the following between Brooklyn and Lexington:
LEX: "The city sure is different when it snows."
BROOK: "Yeah. It's colder."
I still laugh at that.
When Macbeth's guns were manned by Banquo and Fleance, the old man's mansion got pretty shot up in the ensuing fight. This time however, run by a computer, the mansion did not seem to sustain a single hit. Still, the cannons did shoot each other, so...nevermind.
I don't think I even realized that Brooklyn had said the word "Jalapena" until after I had watched PROTECTION (which had aired after this) and this one a second time. The first time around, I guess I just ignored it because I couldn't really understand it.
When "Macbeth" dies the first time, and Goliath says "I had no choice," Hudson calmly brushes the incident (and some of the dust) off. I like this sort of reasonableness about Hudson. He shows he's defintely more of the "old soldier," the 10th century warrior even, than the younger gargoyles in the clan. Incidentally, I never thought Hudson was going to die in this episode. That might have been me being tv-savvy...or just in denial.
And I thought the animation was spectacular (though the shadows in the beginning did make it look almost as though Goliath had a moustache (sp?).
At any rate, a wonderful episode.
Thanks, Blaise. I'm glad you liked it.
It's always cool to get an in depth read on what individual fans thought of our shows.
My own ramble on "The Price".
You mentioned in the course of your ramble a number of misconceptions that first-time viewers of this one could have had; I'll confess that, the first time that I saw "The Price", I fell victim to all of them!
1. I thought at first that Hudson might actually die in this episode, between the name of it and Goliath's line in the "Previously on Gargoyles" section about how Hudson had years ahead of him to live. I was relieved to see that Hudson doesn't actually pay the price (although Owen does, in a different sense, but I'll get to that later).
2. I thought at first that Macbeth really had turned Hudson to stone (and, when you stop to think it over, it probably wasn't too difficult to dupe the audience into believing it, thanks to the fact that we already knew that it was possible to trap a gargoyle in his stone sleep, with the Magus in "Awakening").
3. Since I knew that only Demona could kill Macbeth, I wasn't surprised at all by the fact that Macbeth "returned from the grave", to battle the clan again, and thought that he'd survived because it was Goliath who "slew" him rather than Demona.
4. And when I first saw Hudson in the cage, I thought that it was a metaphor for the spell imprisoning him. Even after Xanatos and Owen showed up, I initially thought that they were just "metaphors", like Xanatos being the shape of the Xanatos Program in "Legion". But I soon understood otherwise.
I did get suspicious about "Macbeth" in this episode, though, not so much from the "only a few lines", as from the fact that he appeared to be acting out-of-character here. I found it hard to believe that Macbeth really would go gargoyle-hunting just for the sake of a few trophies; that motivation was more appropriate to, say, the Pack. I could buy the notion of Macbeth going after the gargoyles again, but for a cause much bigger than just something to have stuffed and mounted. (Especially since, after "City of Stone", I'd become quite fond of him). So the "robot revelation" worked for me.
I also get a kick out of the scene where Xanatos acquired a bit of Hudson's stone skin. Just one of those moments that makes it so hard not to have a sneaking admiration for the man. "There, that wasn't so hard now, was it?"
This is the episode where we learn about Xanatos's desire for immortality, but it occurs to me that we also get a hint of it in "City of Stone", where Demona dupes Xanatos into thinking that the effect of her spell is to steal one minute of life from everybody who watches it, which she can use to augment their life-spans.
I very much enjoyed the interplay between Hudson, Xanatos, and Owen (I honestly hadn't thought that "The Price" helped lead to Puck's use of Xanatos and Hudson slaying each other in "Future Tense" prior to your ramble, I must admit), which certainly had some fine moments there. Like many viewers, I particularly found interesting the fact that Hudson wasn't interested in destroying the Cauldron of Life, but just in regaining his freedom. And also how Xanatos lets him escape from the castle on the grounds of "he's earned it".
Of course, the biggie here is Owen getting his hand turned to stone. That was one bit that definitely got my attention, because of the permanent change to a major character. (Interestingly enough, I didn't pay that much attention to the characters' response to the stone hand, maybe because I was too busy dealing with the mere physical change to pay attention to the fact that Owen was just staring at it. In fact, it wasn't until "The Gathering Part One" that I started to really suspect the truth about Owen, but that's another story.) Still, you've got to admit that it beats being turned into an anthropomorphic aardvark. :)
That's quite true. So Owen gets off easy.
THE PRICE
This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. The revelation that Macbeth was an android was done with astounding grace. I didn't realize he was a robot until Goliath's arm literally went through him. And then when I did realize, I didn't feel cheated, because it made sense out of everything (why he would be working for Xanatos, why he kept repeating those same four lines, why he had become such a narrow-minded character all of a sudden).
In general, I watched GARGOYLES with a jaded perspective. I kept waiting for it to become the run-of-the-mill, hackneyed cartoon series. I did this because I was so terrified of the show becoming that. So, when it appeared Macbeth was being used as a stock antagonist, I rolled my eyes. When it looked like we were supposed to be fooled into thinking Macbeth really died and then being surprised when he returned, I rolled my eyes. When it all made sense, it kind of restrengthened my resolve in the show.
I didn't expect Hudsun to leave without doing anything to the Cauldron. That was well-done. I was also left with my mouth hanging open when Owen stonified his arm.
My only complaints about this episode are that I think your original hunches were better on. We should've seen Banquo and Fleance at Macbeth's, and Broadway shouldn't have gotten frozen in stone in mid-air. The rescue was too hard to believe. I noticed and appreciated Elisa not hitting the cable on the first shot, but it was still too convenient, and really, it was a distraction. Hudson was the one in jeopardy this episode, not Broadway.
But none of that matters. Macbeth was a robot. I don't think another scene had me in more shock, short of when Elisa seemed to fall to her death in HUNTER'S MOON.
Well, I can understand the trepidation, though I'm sure you'd have been able to enjoy it more if you could have relaxed and gone with the flow as opposed to constantly being on the alert and waiting for us to screw up.
The Broadway thing is a shrug to me now. We still needed a good act break, and it was a jeaopardy that we hadn't done. It's not our most realistic solution, but I tried taking it out and the episode was missing a jolt of something. So I put it back in and just tried to make the situation as realistic as I could within the context.
I'm glad we shocked you though. Nice when that works.
dear greg, i have oftin wondered if there is a behgining to the end of the real show like right after the last episode i see all these new carectors in the fanfic and am lost is there a begining to all the new carectors? thanx!
I have no knowledge of what's going on in the fan fic, including the fan-driven TGS.
There are 66 quote-unquote canon episodes, including the first two seasons and the first episode of Goliath Chronicles.
Plus there are 12 more Goliath Chronicle episodes that I don't count as canon. There are also 11 issues of a Marvel Comic and a handful of Disney Adventure stories that I also do not consider canon.
There is an unproduced episode of Team Atlantis featuring Demona and a Hunter.
There is a Bad Guys leica reel.
There is a bunch of stuff in the Archives here that I've revealed, including my so-called "Master Plan", "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers..." and "Gargoyles 2198".
Some of the stuff you're seeing may have come from these sources. Other stuff, I assume the fans just made up. Ask in the Comment Room.
My ramble on "The Cage".
I quite liked this episode, especially since I'd been wondering a little over what happened to the Mutates after "Metamorphosis"; oddly enough, the one whom I was really wondering over was Maggie more than Talon. (Part of it was that I always had a strong sense of sympathy for Maggie, finding herself suddenly and unexpectedly "drafted" into a "war" that she didn't even suspect was taking place when she came to New York, and feeling much more the "ordinary person" in all of this than Derek/Talon did. I especially found myself wondering whether she'd find a cure, and even, at the climax, was half-expecting her to get cured when she took the phial from Sevarius.)
Regarding the identity of Sevarius's kidnapper: I honestly don't recall for certain what I thought the first time that I saw this episode. But Goliath as the kidnapper did make sense, given that he had the motive. I thought that the interaction between Goliath and Elisa over that act was well-done.
I hadn't really thought that Claw's muteness was in part a way of saving on voice actors (though it does make sense) - a lot of that comes, in part, from the fact that my writing has always been of the "written page" variety as opposed to the so that I've never had to give serious consideration to the logistics for writing for television (or the movies, for that matter), where you do have to concern yourself with things such as actor availability or actors needing to be paid. I saw his muteness more in terms of the cornerstone of his characterization (assuming that it's based on the shock and horror of his situation). I hadn't noticed before now that Diane doesn't speak in the episode, by the way.
I share your enjoyment and delight in Xanatos's lines such as "He's the scientist; you're just the experiment. Oh, hello, Goliath, almost didn't see you there." Definitely ranks among Xanatos's all-time great lines. Another of my favorites is Sevarius's "Nothing is so annoying as having someone watching over my shoulder" (though, frankly, I'm a little surprised that he actually dared speak that way to Goliath!)
The ending with the Mutates and Mazas is a lovely one, and it is nice to see Talon's family still accepting him despite his condition. Not to mention the shot of Goliath watching with an approving smile behind the curtain.
As for the "cage symbolism", I honestly hadn't picked up on it all the way until now. It's nice to know about that at last.
I've got to start rambling more often, if for no other reason than so I can get a chance to read the fans rambling back. Thanks.
THE CAGE
Like METAMORPHOSIS and later, KINGDOM, I missed this episode the first time it aired. I did see it after METAMORPHOSIS though, and the rest of the second season (sans KINGDOM). Consequently, I had already become familiar with Vinnie in VENDETTAS, and had seen the new designs of the Mutates in THE RECKONING. Even though I had seen Claw in FUTURE TENSE, I wasn't sure if he was the same character as the "Tiger Mutate" because he didn't have wings. Fang in a jail cell...didn't surprise me. Having seen the way he liked his new form at the end of METAMORPHOSIS, I kind of figured he was a ne'er-do-well. Regardless, I was *extremely* happy to see this "lost chapter" in the series.
Even after having seen VENDETTAS, I still remained convinced that it was Talon who had kidnapped Sevarius. I think it was the kidnapping-sillohuette (sp?) that sold me--it looked enough like Talon in my eyes. And I remained convinced until I saw the image on Vinnie's security screen.
Speaking of which, it was fun watching Vinnie here, even in hindsight.
I had seen Beth Maza first in CLOUD FATHERS, so her appearance here had less impact on me than it probably would have, but she had some nice moments (especially the reminisce (sp?) about Derek).
I did rather like the new character designs (and my Mom, who has a thing for black panthers, *loves* Talon). I also like that Maggie tries to be the peacemaker in the first battle.
Actually there's a lot of interesting things about Maggie in this episode. Even though she's not a "warrior" she is confident enough to disagree with Talon, something she does in the beginning fight, when Talon accuses Goliath of being in cahoots with Sevarius, and at the end when Talon is ready to kill the doctor regardless of the chance for a cure.
Her interaction with the gargoyles themselves presents some fascinating qualities. She's openly apologetic to Hudson when Fang and Claw capture him and Bronx, and seems rather quiet around all the others...except Brooklyn. He is the *only* one in this episode who she becomes angry or confrontational with. I really like this. It's like a holdover from their first encounter, and has her actually arguing against Brooklyn for the idea she had disagreed with in the first place (especially when his thoughts threaten the hope that Xanatos will cure her). Also, it strikes me that the ease with which Maggie can confront Brooklyn is an indication that he is...more familiar to her, maybe? She just seems (to me) to act far less awkward around him. Of course, she did take him out with an electric bolt a month and more back.
As for Brooklyn, he really showed his maturity in this ep. He does not make a decision based on his crush here, and his letting Maggie and the rest go free probably went farther towards gaining their trust than trying to argue with them about Xanatos (well, Maggie and Claw anyway, Fang was out cold).
Re: Talon and Maggie's relationship. I saw it happen pretty much right when she glided down to stand between Talon and Elisa & Goliath. The way they talked to each other, the way they touched each other--it's amazing how close a couple can become when they've got nothing to rely on but each other (and two others, one who doesn't talk and other who talks too much) for several weeks.
Sevarius (and unfortunately, Greg, the misspelled briefcase was never corrected) is a lot of fun in this ep. We see him at the mercy of a gargoyle again, and he has some fun lines here ("I dislike having to work with someone hanging over my shoulder--Oh, wonderful, now there's two of you!"). My brother (who watched this with me the first time) loved one sequence in particular: in the third Act, when Goliath and Elisa are having their heart-to-heart, Sevarius is in the background mixing chemicals that frequently produce small explosions of green smoke. Fun!
Fang I had already known at length before, so it didn't surprise me that he was a bit of a jerk to Claw and abrasive with everyone else. What surprised me was that, despite this, he seemed rather chummy with them all (especially at the end) and never even argued with Talon. Maybe he did like being part of the group at first, and didn't have a bone to pick with Talon as long as he was sent to beat people up.
I finally got to learn more about Claw, too. I liked that his muteness was a result of trauma from the transformation.
Goliath and Elisa stay true to their personalities. Even when I found out that Goliath was the one who kidnapped Sevarius, I didn't feel for a minute that it was out of character for "our hero." I had never thought that Goliath's behavior here was a sort of indicator of what he would be like in EYE OF THE STORM, but it certainly makes sense. I did like Goliath's spying on the happy reunion at the end. It's not often you get to see the big guy smiling like that.
It's both frustrating and cool the way Xanatos dupes Derek. You'd think Derek would be more likely to at least investigate the claims of his sister (whom he's known his whole life) as oppossed to a man he's known personally for less than a year. But Derek, in addition to being blinded by rage may be in a bit of denial. Maybe he's still not entirely ready to admit that he was wrong about Xanatos? On the other hand, Xanatos is just that good. Before even mentioning the "placebo" Xanatos reinforces the idea in Derek's mind that Goliath is in cahoots with Sevarius. And Owen of course picks up on it ("It appears Sevarius *left* with Goliath").
There's an animation moment that I really like: when Owen is scanning the computer for labs that Talon might have taken Sevarius to, the readout is reflected in his glasses.
In contrast,an animation moment that bugs me: twice at the clocktower, once while fighting Brooklyn, and again when he's hanging unconcious between Maggie and Claw, Fang is inexplicably replaced with Talon. It just so mars otherwise good moments.
During the fight at the tower, I love it when Brooklyn uses the clock hand to get the jump on Fang. He looks so neat doing that.
On the subject of fights, Goliath and Talon's skirmish in the Labyrinth always puzzles me. Goliath seems to fare pretty poorly in the fight, more than I would have expected from him. I sometimes wonder if maybe Goliath was hesitant to hurt Elisa's brother.
The finale in which Xanatos finally reveals himself to Talon is, without a doubt, one of the highlights of the series. Talon of course has one of those great realizations of betrayal and irony ("I trusted you! You turned me into a monster and I defended you!"). And Xanatos...doesn't gloat, doesn't patronize, he just states simple facts. And then, half-surprised half-cheerful, acknowledges Goliath. This is an antagonist for the ages.
I liked the moment when Maggie was willing to take the potion, and Talon talks her out of it. It's a great individual character & relationship moment. I really enjoy it.
Of course Goliath offers to have the Mutates join his clan. I knew that Goliath would do something like that (again, he's staying true to his personality). I also, already knew that Talon and co. wouldn't be part of the clan proper (from seeing later episodes), but I was still surprised at how the Mutates decided to stick out on their own.
It was pleasant to have a rather upbeat ending in Derek's story for a change. I was glad (and maybe a little surprised) at how the Maza family was able to deal with this change in their son. It's just so good to see such a strong family, I guess.
It was several viewings before I really noticed the open cage at the end and got the symbolism. Regardless, I liked it.
Despite some animation problems, this is a really good episode.
It sounds really good when you talk about it, anyway. You're ramble was a great read. Thanks.
Just got finished reading your ramblings on the Gargs episodes. WOW is all I can say, reading those has rekindled what I love about this wonderful show you've given us. I know some of these are a little over due, but they were going thru my mind as I was reading here we go.
UPGRADE- This episode actually kept me up at night the first time I saw it. I, like Dingo, was disgusted emotionally of they wy the pack treated their bodies. Wolf was just physically changed, but Jackal and Hayena were down right freaky, there was very little left that was actually human (I'm guessing Jackal's head and Hayena's torso & head). a reocurring mental image was the garbage bags containing their bodies callously tossed into the GEN-U-TECH dump. Really freaky stuff.Yes, I always had considered Brok the second in command.
HIGH NOON- A personal fav. As was intended, I got that feeling of "whoah, THREE villains!" and continue to feel that way every time I see it, maybe just cause we didn't see Coldstone all that often, and he's one of my favorite characters. Comming off of City of Stone I was baffled as to why Demona and Macbeth were working together, but I came to the conclusion that they were under the control of the Weird Sisters. The "comming battle" line at the end intrigued me, my friend ws baffled by it, even beyon watching Avalon he was expecting some monstrous epic brawl, I feel the line referred directly to their machinations with the Archmage. I feel the toy of Coldstone helps to establish more the re-animated stone cause his actual skin was all cracked, a truly morbid thought indeed! I still the CS toy was the best one released followed by Bronx.
CITY OF STONE- Great episode, but I was put off by the first showing of Macbeth feeling Demona's pain. I didn't gather it, honestly ,I thought it was an animation error the first time. After re-watching it I'm like "ahhhh I get it now , those smart guy have thought of everything!" Also, I took note of Owen recognising the wrong spell, tho it took some time for the payoff, I did catch it.
The Mirror- Another fav. what can I say, it was perfect, I love it when the Gargs use their "extra" limbs for other things, like Demona's tail poking Puck and Goliath's wing in HighNoon. The only thing that was odd to me was when Demona, holding Puck with her wings, hovers into the subway. Upon re-watching I hear the sound effect of Puck hovering her , but I didn't catch this the first time.
Vows- I wish the animation was a liitle better in depicting the difference of older characters than it was, I mena Hudson had the obvious eye thing , y.Demona didn't have the arm jewelry and was thinner, and Goliath was only thinner and happier sounding. No biggie tho. I love how time travel was handled on the show, it always made perfect sence to me, leaving me explaining it to my friends (one of them STILL doesn't understnd how Gryff showed up!) Xanatos was awesome in this one! Fox's dress was reaaalllllyy low cut in the back, that's probably why their clothes were react to as such, she was real close to flashing some behind (not that I'd complain!
EYE OF THE BEHOLDER- I missed this one and cought it next re-run. Was it just me or was the animation during Act2 diferent from Acts 1&3? I liked Xanatos' variation of the armor. I was also shocked that you were able to get away with Fox not wearing anything, really interesting ;]. Of course watching this one in re-run I was spoiled to the notion that the Eye of Odin was important by the Avalon arc, but I would've noticed it anyway, the Edge was my bros' all time fav episode.
Keep em' coming and I'll keep enjoying them. now, because I'm kinda lazy, is Gargoyles 2198 merely an idea that is being pitched around or is it something more? Thanks alot!
G2198 is just an idea in my head, largely. I haven't even pitched it since 1996 (when it was set in 2158 and called Gargoyles Future Tense).
PROTECTION
I'll be honest and say that this isn't one of my favorite episodes. Of course, in the initial airing that may have largely been the result of not having my favorite garg (Brooklyn) even appearing. And while I have definitely gotten over that, I think I really would have appreciated at least some mention of where the others were at this time (even if only "They're out on patrol...with Bronx").
Even then, there are a few other things that put me off. Broadway's "mobster lingo" for one. I'm sure some may find it humorous, and it is in keeping with Broadway's character, no doubt about that, but I just cringe every time he talks like that. I suppose I may have liked it better if there had been shots of the other characters reacting to it--Dracon and gang looking perplexed, Elisa embarrassed, and Goliath...well, the stoic look works for him.
There were other bits and pieces of dialogue that didn't really work for me, and they usually run along the lines of "stereotypical cops & mobsters" phrases (Elisa and Glasses get a few of that). On the other hand, I don't have any better suggestions for dialogue, so that's how much my two cents are worth.
And chalk me up as another one who didn't think Elisa had gone bad or was a clone (or even suspected that she was being framed--her telling Pal Joey that "Dracon's territory is [her] territory" led me to believe that she was the "lady cop" Glasses had been talking about...a conclusion I had already drawn when Glasses mentioned it).
All that said, this ep has gotten better with age for me, and there are quite a few nice things in it.
Elisa's clothes were a plus. I loved seeing her in something a little more..."fun," I guess you could say.
And while there may have been dialogue I didn't like, there was a fair amount that I did find enjoyable. Most of the one's that you listed, Greg, but also some that I like mostly because of the way the actor's read them:
Elisa: (as Goliath and Broadway attack) "Oh, not now!"
Dracon: (after Elisa has introduced Dracon to the gargoyles) "We've met."
Pal Joey: "Knock out the people, blow up the building: simple." (Gotta love that guyes ease when it comes to mob work.)
There are also some animation moments I like--standouts being Elisa's facial reactions when Dracon drapes his arm around her shoulders, and Goliath's gripping his belt at the end of Act 2 (you don't see him do that often).
Character-wise, the one's that are presented are still enjoyable. Goliath's outrage at the perversion of "protection" was something I didn't fully appreciate until later viewings. For a gargoyle that lives up to the ideals of his people, that's got to be something akin to blasphemy. [Note: I had not read Todd's comments when I wrote this, but I am in full agreement with him here.]
I loved Matt's interaction with Jaffe as well (and I could kick myself for not getting the "tilting at windmills" reference right off the bat). I also smile at how Matt looks in his disguise.
The whole supporting cast is enjoyable. Art and Lois are a nice introductory couple, and I love Art's defiance, how he almost names Dracon, only to be talked down, grudgingly, by Lois. A nice contrast in personalities, and you really feel sorry that their business of 30-years was gone in an instant.
I think Dracon, while not the mightiest of the garg's adversaries, has some enjoyable character aspects. Mostly, his chutzpah (sp?)--in his first appearance he took on Xanatos, here...he pats Goliath on the shoulder (I love G's growl). Glasses and Pal Joey are also unique, each in their own ways. I noticed Dracon's quiet insult to Glasses about how he's obviously not "the man in charge." You highlighted an interesting difference between Dracon and Xanatos, Greg--Dracon treats his henchmen in a fashion closer to a "normal" animated villain. Of course, he doesn't have the normal animated sidekicks--Glasses is more intelligent, and Pal Joey more ruthless. Seriously, Pal Joey really makes an impression here; his attitude during the interrogation, his "professional" demeanor in attmepting to blow up the laundromat, all very cool.
I didn't figure out who the laundromat owners were until after they dropped their act. :)
Dracon getting the drop on Elisa in the general store was a bit of a stretch, but I love that Elisa extricated herself from it and KICKED DRACON'S GANGERSTER @$$! I also loved it when she stuck it to Dracon about his habit of calling her "sugar."
One thing I saw in my first viewing that I really liked was the fact that Dracon's being out of jail was at least brought up. In a show like BATMAN, you don't mind that the villains just appear out on the streets again without an explanation, but in GARGOYLES, Xanatos kind of set a precedent. Bottom line, I was glad that at least some explanation was given for why Dracon was free to run business as usual.
Watching Broadway racing against the bomb's timer is always a nice sequence for me, and it still gets me how he just barely escapes the explosion.
I really liked Goliath's speech to Dracon when he had the jerk in the air. I hadn't really picked up on the clue of Goliath's eyes losing their "anger-glow," but I did find it a neat image all the same.
I also loved Goliath's, "I will protect you, you will protect me, and together we will protect this city." That was a line that really hit me.
As for the whole "Jalapena" thing...eh, it didn't leave too great an impression on me except for Goliath's one at the end. It did make for a cheesy, but somewhat fun way to finish the ep. I hadn't expected it to appear as a curse word throughout the rest of the series. I do agree that the gargs should have found some sort of substitute swear word, but I would have loved something with a more...gaelic (sp?) sound, maybe?
Anyway, while its not at the top of my list, there are things to like in this episode.
It seems to be lukewarm for many people.
We did make an effort, here and in general, to "flesh" out our minor (sometimes very minor) supporting characters, like Pal Joey and Mr. Jaffe. I'm glad that stuff seemed to work for you. All part of trying to make the garg universe as real as possible.
My "ramble" about "Protection".
I'll admit that this isn't one of my favorite ones (more out of my personal tastes, I suppose, than anything else), although a few parts of it did stand out to me. Especially Goliath's disgust that Dracon would actually call his extortion racket "protection" (and indeed, to him, that misuse of the word would be approaching blasphemy).
Looking back on my "first-time response", I know that I definitely didn't think that the "Elisa gone bad" was a clone (maybe because the story concept here was so obviously a mundane one - Dracon, the most "mundane" of the recurring antagonists running an extortion racket - that such a notion just didn't occur to me). I'm not sure if I thought that it was a frame-up; what I do know is that I was surprised to see Elisa acting that way, and it made sense to me when it turned out that she was just acting. (I noticed that Goliath believed that she'd been placed under a spell - his 10th century upbringing naturally at work again here - but that Broadway made the correct realization almost at once.)
One nice touch during the "acting" scene for Pal Joey's benefit: Chavez mentioning about how Elisa's been acting strange lately - I can't help wondering whether she really was wondering about that at the time. (It certainly had the advantage of making the "acting" less obvious to the audience).
I've occasionally wondered just how much Dave knew about what was really going on when Elisa was visiting him in the pool hall. Did he really believe that Elisa was a crooked cop?
One other favorite part: the bit where Dracon asks Goliath if Elisa's his woman (just goes to show that he may be a crook, but he's not blind), then starts patting him on the shoulder, commenting on how he's got good taste - Goliath glowers at him for that familiarity, and Tony hurriedly retreats. (I can't say that I blame him, but I'm amazed that he was actually daring to pat Goliath to begin with).
Broadway lets out another rude crude belch while helping himself to the jalapena peppers. Though it's the last one that I can recall in the series.
I couldn't help but think that Matt looked almost hopelessly geeky in his grocery clerk disguise. Jaffe's "tilting at windmills" line reminded me of your remark about how "quixotic" is a very good word to describe Matt (I recall that I initially used it in my comments about his pursuit of the Illuminati).
We also find out how Dracon keeps on showing up again in spite of his getting arrested each time in the previous episode - though obviously, in light of his being behind bars at the beginning of "Turf", there are limits to what even his lawyers can do.
It's really great to have the rambles going again. I'm eagerly awaiting the next one.
ME TOO!!!!
I think Dave did think that Elisa was corrupt.
UPGRADE
Ah, yes. The one where Brooklyn officially becomes Second-in-Command and the Pack become (for lack of a better term) bona-fide supervillains.
First off, I'll say that all the animation errors you mentioned, Greg, were eventually corrected--on my tape Fox's lips do move, and Goliath follows in pursuit of the Coyote head (I don't know about the Dingo hitting his head twice thing; never noticed that...or the glitch with the head/full-robot so that reveal still worked for me).
Anyway, when the Pack robs the bank, I kind of felt it was sort of "pathetic" for them as well, and I somehow KNEW Dingo would comment on it in that way. Actually, Dingo always seemed to be a bit distanced from the rest in one way or another. I mean, in his first appearance he didn't leave too much of an impression on me (I couldn't even remember his name), but then he's revealed to have fled to Europe while Jackal and Hyena stayed behind. Then, in LEADER OF THE PACK, he's Coyote's accomplice from the beginning, and the only one besides the robot to take down a gargoyle during the fight at the studio. Here, even in the first Act, Dingo is the one most disgusted with the Pack's current status, the one who figures out how to turn the tide in the beginning battle (which I'll get to in a bit), and, as Hyena points out, the only one to get away with any money. So even before the titular upgrade, Dingo kind of seemed the odd-man out of the group.
The Pack's battle with the gargoyles is interesting to me mostly because of how thoroughly Broadway trashes Jackal. I mean, he claws him across the chest, and then after recovering from a weapon blast, jumps on Jackal, pounds him a few times, and hurls him against the hull of the Pack Attack vehicle. Neat (in a brutal sort of way).
Well, the Pack gets away and a wounded Goliath is taken back to the Clocktower. Here comes the "it's time to choose a second in command" scene. I just knew that Goliath would try to make Hudson that ('cause that just seems like Goliath), but that eventually it would come down to the Trio.
Now, I had read that original comic in the Disney Adventures magazine that came out back in October of 1994, and it literally referred to Brooklyn as Goliath's Second in Command. So I pretty much knew who'd end up getting the job. However, I hadn't paid much attention to Brooklyn's "displays of leadership" before this episode. He really was the de facto leader of the Trio, and this episode does show his leadership capabilities in handling situations.
Back with the Pack...and Coyote. I just loved its nonchalant (sp?), "May I come in?" A robot with style--definite Xanatos style.
One note, despite the difference in appearance I kind of figured that the mutate shown in Coyote's pitch was Talon. I guess he must have gone back to Xanatos by this time.
I never realized before that Owen was absent from this episode. Having read your memo to Gilad, I now understand why that was--as cool as the guy is, he would have been a bit superfluous.
A month passes (which surprised me--the first major jump of time *within* an acutal episode), and while the Trio are away, Goliath and the rest meet up with the new and improved Pack. I was not really expecting what showed up, even with the robot's pitch. Dingo's initial appearance was a surprise, followed by Jackal, who inspired a sort-of "should have known" feeling when he revealed himself as a cyborg. Then Hyena gave me the creeps with her jumping and cackling, and finally Wolf in all his beastiality showed up and pretty much capped off the whole thing. A lot of fun touches here, the line about the Archmage, Hudson's referring to Wolf as a "forest demon," and Jackal's arm revealing a life of its own.
Dingo distinguishes himself even further with his disdain and horror at his comrades (maybe it's because he was the only one with dignity or humanity left, but I really jived with Dingo in this ep).
Coyote appears, bigger and badder than before, and Hyena starts up her infatuation with him again. It is "sicker than usual" as Jackal says, but also a lot of fun.
When the Trio reconnoiter (sp?) at the Clocktower, it always surprised me that Broadway stopped the most crime that night (and he of course follows it up with his modest "Just gotta know where to look"). I don't know why--maybe I'm a closet size-ist (or my "Brooklyn-fan" mind-set was kicking in).
Wolf still has it out for Goliath. This is a very interesting aspect of his character the more that I think about it. More than any other gargoyle, Wolf has singled out the big "alpha male," if you will. I just find it fascinating right now.
Returning to the Trio, we have a (for me at least) fun scene with Broadway zinging Lex's musing, and Fox's fun commercial. I just love the way Laura San Giacomo read that--just as I love Jeff Bennett's "She's talking to us."
It was at about this point that I FINALLY picked up on the "game" X&F were playing. Again, style for the both of them. And even though I noticed the recycling of "the edge" line, it still worked for me. "The edge" seems like something in which Xanatos places great interest.
Brooklyn displays his leadership qualities by his cool-headedness and capable planning (and you just knew Lex was going to try to fly in there right of the bat--hey, it's the Pack!). It didn't hit me until later viewings just how well Brooklyn planned that--divide the enemy's forces, impair their primary sense (vision), and free trapped comrades during the confusion.
The battle itself had some memorable occurances. As strange as Jackal's arm was, Hyena beats him (and the rest of the Pack) in the "unnerving" catagory with the way her fingers bend backward, her leg rotates completely, and her limbs become insectian (is there such a word?--who cares now?). Dingo impresses me yet again by how STRONG his head is. He crashes through the roof without a helmet and is just momentarily stunned.
I actually got that Wolf's features became more feral when he got into a "battle rage" but, yeah, the way it was handled I kind of felt that was just me rationalizing the change than realizing it. Maybe a "morphing" scene would have helped. I don't know.
I love how they take out Coyote. Especially when Goliath crushes the head (that's just that sick, twisted part of me again).
I actually didn't mind Morgan's line. Seemed kind of fun to me. Of course, that just may be the way Kieth David reads it.
Brooklyn is made Second in Command. Are we surprised? No. Are we happy? Speaking as a Brooklyn fan--OH YEAH!
And the Xanatos (or is it Fox) Tag. I love Xanatos' cheer over the fact that Fox is his equal.
"Care to play again?" That line always makes me smile, even if it's only at its sheer audacity.
Personally, I kind of liked that the Pack was "upgraded." I mean, they were tackling "supernatural" creatures, why not even the playing field a little?
I don't know whether you know this or not, Greg, but UPGRADE has become another episode that Toon Disney will not show. I can only guess it's because a building blows up (never mind the fact that it's abandoned, barely taller than five stories, and such a throwaway occurance that it wasn't even brought up in the ramble). I wish they'd just grow up.
Anyway, fun episode.
I'm hoping that by now, Upgrade is back in the rotation. I think someone told me that it was.
I'm also glad that most of the most glaring animation errors were fixed. It's definitely a fun episode and packed with stuff.
And "Care to play again?" is way up there for me in the category of lines that are both funny and chilling.
My ramble on "Upgrade".
I'll confess, for a start, that "Upgrade" isn't one of my favorite episodes, due mostly to the fact that it seemed much more like a half-hour "slugfest" than is generally the case with "Gargoyles" (although, given that we're dealing with the Pack here, I suppose it's inevitable - they're not the most subtle antagonists out there, after all). But it had some parts of it that I rather liked.
The transformations of Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf definitely freaked me out. In fact, the first time that I saw this episode, I tried to believe, for a while, that Jackal and Hyena were simply wearing fancy mechanical armor, but the evidence against that was too strong; I had to face the facts, in the end, and realized that they'd become cyborgs. And that definitely chilled me. (In Wolf's case, I didn't even have the option of finding an alternative explanation; it was too obvious that he'd been mutated.) Those three had permanently changed, on the physical level, from what they'd been in "The Thrill of the Hunt". They were no longer fully human. In fact, to me, the real significance of their alterations in "Upgrade" wasn't what you'd pointed out (they need to be upgraded so that it won't be too easy for the gargoyles to take them down - though I did see that there) but rather the way that the three of them were growing less human, their physical transformation being almost an outward sign of their increasing degeneracy.
By contrast, I liked Dingo's refusal to become physically upgraded, and horror at what his teammates had done to themselves. In fact, that was definitely when I began to like Dingo, as opposed to seeing him as just another member of the Pack (as he'd been to me up until then). (It certainly echoed my response to their transformations, which, I suspect, was how most of the audience was similarly responding). I wasn't surprised, therefore, when he was no longer with the Pack in "Grief" afterwards, or when he was shown seeking to "go straight" in "Walkabout". This was definitely the point where we see the "break with Eastcheap" (I chose that particular phrase inspired by your idea of Dingo's real name being Harry Monmouth, and the parallel is definitely there - though I might add that I don't see any of his former Pack-mates being a Falstaff-figure - more on the level of Falstaff's associates like Bardolph or Pistol, perhaps, but not scaling the heights of comic genius of Sir John himself - not that they were meant to.)
We also see the definite introduction (though it'd been hinted at in "Leader of the Pack") of Hyena's interest in Coyote, which has to count as the most bizarre relationship in "Gargoyles"; even Jackal gets nauseated by it, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redesigning Goliath's features in his stone sleep.
One side-note: re Hyena's wondering aloud whether gargoyles taste like chicken. I've sometimes wondered why the phrase is "tastes like chicken" as opposed to "tastes like beef" or "tastes like pork", or "tastes like turkey". Just one of life's little mysteries, I suppose.
On the gargoyles' side, we get to see Brooklyn becoming the new second in command. I will admit that I honestly hadn't wondered about that issue until the episode came out. (I've occasionally wondered if Goliath didn't pick one before this episode had anything to do with it having last been filled by Demona, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.) I did think that Brooklyn fitted the role well, and liked the bit at the end where he admits that he's not in that big a hurry to take Goliath's place. And where Goliath offers the role to Hudson, but Hudson declines it.
I still get a kick out of Fox's little public service announcement: "Don't 'Pack' it in. Take the train." Pretty clever of her.
I don't find Officer Morgan's remark that troublesome; in fact, I found it quite amusing.
Incidentally, Xanatos's remark at the end about having found a true equal in Fox reminds me of your analysis of Theseus, where you saw him as having found his equal in the Amazon Queen Hippolyta/Antiope. It makes me wonder whether you'd included a little of your perception of Theseus and Hippolyta in Xanatos and Fox (whether consciously or otherwise). Come to think of it, there's even a slight connection between the two couples, via "A Midsummer Night's Dream".
Taking your points in reverse order:
One of the great ironies of the series is that the one character who truly builds a healthy relationship (prior to Broadway & Angela in "The Journey") is Xanatos. The BAD GUY.
Heavily influenced by "The Warrior's Husband" and "The Bull from the Sea", I do see Theseus and Antiope as being true equals and the correct match.
But I'm not sure that's influencing X & Fox so much as that ANY great man would WANT a great woman, not a trophy or showpiece or weak link. Xanatos would no more settle for a weak wife than he'd want Owen to throw a judo practice.
By the same token, Goliath loves and respects Elisa and Broadway loves and respects Angela. They are equals.
Maybe it's just the way I think the world should work.
"Tastes like chicken" has entered the vernacular, I think. I first heard it in reference to Rattlesnake meat, and at the time that may have been someone's sincere way to describe what the serpent tastes like.
But since then, I've heard the phrase applied to almost any exotic carnivorous matter. I've never heard beef, pork or turkey used the same way.
The degeneracy of Wolf, Hyena and Jackal was definitely part of our intent.
I was reading through the archives and I found posts on the subject of Odin's horned helmet versus the more historically accurate hornless helmets of Hakon and your comments that perhaps the stereotypical vision of Vikings being clad in horned helmets was inspired by the Norse gods rather than Norse mortals and I remembered this bit of trivia you might find interesting, While Vikings never wore horned helmets into battle they were sometimes used in religious ceremonies. At any rate, I loved the design you guys gave to Odin. It's just as I always imagined the big guy. I would have been disappointed if you had given Odin a more earthly Viking look just as much as I would have been Hakon had had horns like Marvel's Loki (how can he stand up with those things?). It just seems pointless to me to debate historical accuracy in relation to supernatural beings, I mean if you say Odin shouldn't have a horned helmet because real Vikings didn't have them you might as well say Anubis shouldn't have a jackal-head because real Egyptians didn't have jackal-heads.
Agreed. Cool bit of trivia, by the way.
Yay! A new episode ramble! Thanks, Greg!
Here are some of my own thoughts about "Double Jeopardy".
The opening one is a rather odd little memory. In the summer of 1995, I spotted an article on "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine (whose name I can no longer remember) discussing what would be done in Season Two; among other things, it included a mention that Goliath's daughter would be introduced into the series. I was quite curious about that, and wondered what she'd be like and how it would be done. And then, when "Double Jeopardy" first aired, and Thailog was treated as Goliath's son in it, I wondered if the article had erred and gotten the gender of Goliath's offspring wrong. (Of course, I know now that it was Angela that the article meant, not Thailog, so that there was no mistake there except on my part.)
In light of the opening flashback, Xanatos must have already started building a whole new set of Steel Clan robots even while he was still in prison, before "The Edge" (especially given that I spotted a whole bunch of those robots in storage, alongside the one that was activated to attack Goliath).
I also liked Owen's "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?" line. He really sounded hurt there.
I was interested to notice Renard on Xanatos's suspects list for Thailog's kidnapping, alongside Demona and Macbeth. While I can easily imagine Demona or Macbeth being willing to engage in such a maneuver against Xanatos, I doubt, in light of his rigid code of integrity, that Renard would have done the same (although there is "Golem" to consider, coming up later in the season). Maybe Xanatos believed that the temptation of kidnapping his new gargoyle would have been too much for even his father-in-law to resist.
Sevarius's hamming it up with Xanatos ("Yes! You robbed me of my creation!") was one of the funniest moments in "Gargoyles" for me; certainly the funniest in the episode. (Don't quit your day job, Anton.) And I agree with you about the Dr. Antinori business, by the way. (Also on the subject of Sevarius's overacting, I couldn't help but think that some of his narration in the "clone files" that Lex and Broadway discovered felt almost like a parody of that in a nature documentary, such as the "time for it to leave the nest" line, though I don't know if it was intended that way.)
You no doubt recall how I'd earlier pointed out the similarities between Thailog and Edmund (which I first began to notice after you mentioned Edmund being your favorite Shakespeare character); it occurred to me recently that Thailog also does have a certain similarity to Mordred, especially in many modern-day versions of the Arthurian legend, such as T. H. White. He's Goliath's "illegitimate son", just as Mordred was Arthur's, and his training by his other two fathers, Xanatos and Sevarius, does have (if you're out looking for the parallels) a certain echo of how Mordred, in White's "The Once and Future King", similarly gets trained by his mother Morgause. And the dynamics between Goliath and Thailog, with Goliath initially rejecting his son but then learning that he was wrong to do so, and now reaching out to him - but too late - do remind me of how in White, Arthur similarly initially moves against his son (trying to drown him at birth), but then understands that he was wrong to do so, also makes the attempt to reach out to him, but is coldly rejected by Mordred when he does so. (Come to think of it, Thailog also clearly lusts after both of Goliath's loves, Demona and Elisa, even to the point of combining them in Delilah, just as Mordred lusts after his stepmother Guinevere and attempts to wed her after he usurps his father's throne.)
I've mentioned before the element that I believe makes Thailog an especially great antagonist (the incongruous pairing of Goliath's physical appearance and voice with a thoroughly Xanatosian amorality - though I think that Thailog comes across as more malevolent than Xanatos does, which is also a good touch), so I won't go into that again. It's a bit of a pity that he only turned up twice more in the original series after that ("Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning"), although I suppose that if you'd gotten to do more episodes past "The Journey" that we'd have gotten a lot more of the guy.
The ending definitely surprised me; I was expecting Xanatos to reveal that he'd seen to it that he didn't lose the ransom money after all, but instead we got the revelation that Thailog had escaped with it and is out there, happily scheming away, to Xanatos's own alarm. (As I mentioned before, it's particularly of interest to note that this is the last time in the series that Xanatos attempts to make his own gargoyles - and after the way that Thailog backfired on him, who can blame him?)
It's great to have the rambles going again, and I'm looking forward to the ones to come.
I'm afraid we haven't made that much Ramble progress recently, though I know we got past Avalon and into (at least) the beginning of the World Tour.
I think, like your Edmund comparison, your comparison of Thailog to Mordred is very apt. Perhaps moreso. Another bastard, basically. I'm not sure how conscious I was of any of these individuals influences, but I'm fascinated with the archetype of "The Bastard" in literature. Both the quote/unquote good guys (like Theseus, Arthur, Dunois, etc.) and the quote/unquote bad guys (like Edmund and Mordred, etc.) Thailog with his three fathers was clearly designed to be our bastard. And what a great bastard he is.
I've certainly read White's ONCE AND FUTURE KING at least a couple times. And I've lost count how many times I've seen CAMELOT.
Hi, actually this is more of a general ramblin fan letter than a question.
I love gargoyals, and even after all this time I still do.
OH! Though one good question just came to mind (and likely has been asked a million times) Do you plan on ever re-releasing gargoyals as they were in the first two seasons? (not that stupid farce that ABC mangled.) Do you have to wait for any wavers of contracts or has Disney totally bought out all rights to the show so that we never have hopes of seeing it anywere unless they deside to grace us with it (like that would ever happen)
I also noticed that Aladdin the series was in your list of series you did, that was surprising to me, but then again not really, now that I think about it the series had alot of the same feel as gargoyals. (GO MOZENRATH! chee, I'm such a sap for the bad boys)
Gargoyals still holds a strong place in my heart and was definately the first series I ever did fan art, as well as stories about. (Hey I can read,just said I did it, not giving nothing here, nor do I want to. They just fun stuff for me personally anyway.)
Puck is definately my favorite charactor, and it was a huge disapointment to me, my little sister and our circle of friends who are all fans when he wasnt even given an apearence in that chronicals series. (well other than as Owen) So much got crammed and cliche'd in that series, BLEH gotta get off it >.<
Anyway, love the details and developement of the charactors, they all were so believeable and real. The series touched imagination and feeling as no show has, it wsn't just animation as america treats it, but a true series, like Babyalon 5 and StarTrek series. It is the exsample I use most often in arguements for animation used as another form of filming rather than just entertainment for children.
I really hope to see more someday.
OH!!!! End question!!! Did you ever write out how you planned the series to go? If so, did you ever put them to the web? If so... CAN I SEE?!!!!!
I'm glad you liked the show.
I worked on developing Aladdin for television -- though that wasn't exactly rocket science -- but had nothing to with its production. I'm sorry if that was unclear.
Disney ALWAYS owned Gargoyles outright. Bringing it back is not up to me, though I'd like to and I continue to hold out some hope.
I have a master plan and tons of ideas in my head, going forward and backward. A fraction of that plan is on the web, and can be accessed by checking the ASK GREG FAQ.
I'm trying to find pictures,drawings,or paintings of gargoyles. That I might use for a tatto.
Good luck with that.
How can I petition Disney studios?
For what?
sorry for the typos...it's 3:06 pm and i have been up since yesterday trying to draw that stuff on note book papper don't worry i make sure you get all the credit for the people that belong to you.as long as i can use them.
Rusty,
See my previous response. It's good to give me (and the other creators of GARGOYLES) credit for our work. Not just good, but essential.
But I still am not clear as to your intentions. Fan-fiction is fine. For profit work is NOT.
hey greg..if i where to use your Charchters in a comic/ or anime some time in the future maybe would it be alright? i am asking you because you drew it and at frist i wanted you to sue me but...i was told you didn't do a copy right on it so disney owns it,thats ok disney can sue me :) they wont get nothing though, the reason i am asking you is cuz you drew them so in my eyes you are the orginal owner of the whole thing. thanks if your reading this (cuz i probly will just use them anyway lol) and sorry for takeing your time
First off, I don't draw anything.
Second off, I never owned Gargoyles. Disney always did.
Third off, if you're talking about not-for-profit fanwork, than be my guest. Enjoy yourself.
Fourth off, if you're talking about for-profit (or even attempts at for-profit) work, than that's called plaigarism, and I'm against that, and you do not have my permission to use ideas, characters, etc. that were created by me and my staff and are owned by Disney.
As many of you know, I stopped by the Station 8 Comment Room last week, asking the fans to list the top five reasons that they were drawn to the Gargoyles series. My post received 470 responses in one week: pretty good on short notice.
The responses can be viewed at http://s8.org/gargoyles/cmntarch2.php. They'll be on that site through this coming Sunday
(11/23/03), at which point the room clears.
I copied and pasted the entire room over to a Word Document and found it to be nearly three hundred pages long and full of very
gratifying bites about the series, but it's a lot to wade through, so I put the following statistics together. [Note: some people gave more than five reasons, and many reasons overlapped. I just tried to count everything. But this is far from scientific.]
"WHAT ARE THE TOP FIVE REASONS THAT YOU ARE DRAWN TO THE GARGOYLES SERIES?"
Out of 470 Total Responses…
#1 - Characters.
An amazing 437 people cited the Characters and the series' complex characterization as one of their top five reasons for being drawn to the series. They discussed, often in great detail, how real and believable the characters seem, how detailed their backstories were, how major and minor characters grew, changed and evolved, and how complex they were, reflecting shades of grey. They liked the relationships/bonds/dynamics between the characters, as well. They even liked their names. 35 respondents specifically noted and appreciated the diversity of our cast (multi-racial and multi-species, and all of very different body types). 16 respondents noted our depiction of strong and non-stereotyped female characters. Another 35 respondents listed our villains as their favorites. Many individual characters were listed simply as examples, but many were also singled out by the fans, voted as one of their top five reasons for liking the show: Demona (39), Brooklyn (30), Xanatos (29), Goliath (23), Puck/Owen (22), Elisa (17), Lexington (13), Macbeth (9), Broadway (9), Bronx (7), Hudson (5), Thailog (5), Fox (4), the Mutates (4), The Pack (3), Oberon (3), the Tricksters (3), the Hunters (3), Angela (2), the Illuminati (2), Jackal & Hyena (1), Desdemona (1), Titania (1), the Clones (1), Una (1), Fang (1) and Matt (1).
#2 - Plot Development.
228 respondents listed the series' ongoing saga, its story arcs, as one of their top five reasons for liking the series. They liked its dynamism and twists. How stories built on past stories and presaged stories yet to come: the tapestry of events that created the Gargoyles Universe. In fact, 23 people specifically listed the "Gargoyles Universe" as one of their top five draws. 88 people specifically referred to Gargoyles' Continuity as being a plus. They liked, in essence, that the show had a memory - it made events more real and seemed to reward the fans for both sticking around and paying attention. It also encouraged them to watch episodes over and over to pick up tidbits that they might have missed on a first viewing. 18 also liked how actions had repercussions and consequences. 3 people praised the series' "epic scope". 6 talked about how it seemed to be filled with possibilities for yet more stories.
#3 - Literary, Mythological, Historical & Biblical References.
201 people loved the integration of various characters and concepts from myth, history, literature and the Bible. A whopping (and gratifying) 104 specifically mentioned all the various Shakespeare references and characters as being a plus. Many felt the show was educational, inspiring them to read Shakespeare's plays or study Scottish History, etc.
#4 - Animation.
199 people loved the series' animation. Many consider it the best or among the best that American television animation has ever produced. Many people compared it favorably with Japanese anime and Batman: The Animated Series. Two people specifically praised the pacing.
#5 - The Voice Cast.
158 people listed the voice cast and voice acting in their top fives. 38 people specifically mentioned that the presence of so many Star Trek actors in Gargoyles was a major initial draw. As with the characters, many individual actors were singled out by the fans in their lists: Keith David/Goliath (32), Jonathan Frakes/Xanatos (19), Marina Sirtis/Demona (15), Salli Richardson/Elisa (4), Michael Dorn/Coldstone (3), Edward Asner/Hudson (2), Jeff Bennett/Brooklyn (2), Jim Cummings/Dingo (1), Tim Curry/Sevarius (1), Thom Adcox-Hernandez/Lexington (1), Frank Welker/Bronx (1). Three of our international fans even praised the foreign dubs.
That takes care of the top five, but this'll fill out the top twenty:
#6 - Series Intelligence.
140 people specifically stated how much they appreciated how "smart" the series was. They liked that it was written on multiple levels so that it could be appreciated by kids as well as by teens and adults. That's one of the reasons why they're still watching it ten years later. They liked how Gargoyles respected its audience and its audience's intelligence.
#7 - Design.
122 people cited the show's design work and art style as part of their top five. They liked the looks of the individual gargoyles and the other characters as well, with 12 people actually praising how "sexy" the characters were. They liked the backgrounds and the overall look of the show. 12 people specifically gave credit to the series' color palette.
#8 - Writing.
76 people cited the series' writing for praise (this is in addition to those listed above who liked the characters, overall story arcs, literary references, etc.). They praised the writing's attention to detail, its substance, layers and intensity. 32 people praised how "believable" and "realistic" the show seemed, despite its fantasy premise. 28 specifically noted the mystery and intrigue, liking the risk-taking twists and turns that kept the audience coming back for more. 27 praised the show's humor and comedy (and one person even liked all the in-jokes). 24 specifically praised the dialogue. 11 praised the emotional depth. 5 praised its timeless quality. 3 praised its scary sequences.
#9 - Issues/Values/Themes.
71 respondents were impressed by Gargoyles ability to introduce real world issues and teach values without preaching. They cited episodes that dealt with gun safety, illiteracy, environmental concerns, etc. 24 people also specifically cited the shows pro-social themes, again noting how the show got its messages across without hitting the viewer over the head with them. Specific themes were even listed on occasion. 10 people hailed the idea of our using monsters as heroes and exploring the theme of "not judging a book by its cover." Four liked the show's theme of hope. Another four liked its theme of protection. One person listed "the fish out of water" theme. Another listed the theme of Family as being important.
#10 - Romance.
67 people responded to the romance in the show. In particular, the slow-boiling Beauty and the Beast relationship between Goliath and Elisa.
#11 - Core Concept.
65 people listed the core concept as one of their reasons. They liked the whole idea of medieval Gargoyles waking up in the modern world. They liked how fully realized the Gargoyles species was, from how they looked to how they acted, their history, culture and behavior. An additional 30 people specifically cited the series' "Originality".
#12 - Music.
62 respondents listed Carl Johnson's music score and opening theme as one of their top five reasons for liking the show. (Though one person was happy that there was no singing.) Many of the fans spontaneously requested that Disney release the music on CD. [Of course, many, many others noted that they would like to see the whole show on DVD.] 7 additional people listed "Sound" in general, including music and sound effects.
#13 - Multi-Genre storytelling.
62 individuals liked how the series elegantly combined multiple genres, including fantasy, science fiction, comic book action hero, comedy, drama, horror, etc. They liked how science went hand-in-hand with sorcery. They liked the use of magic and technology, time travel, robots, gods, monsters, etc.
#14 - Episodic Stories.
60 respondents praised the storytelling of individual episodes. How each was able to stand alone, while still fitting into the larger tapestry of the series' arcs. 17 people praised the stories from the Avalon World Tour set of episodes. Many individual episodes were also cited in the fans' lists: "Deadly Force" (9), "The Mirror" (6), "Temptation" (2), "Future Tense" (1), "M.I.A." (1), "Awakening" (1), "City of Stone" (1), "Hunter's Moon" (1), "The Edge" (1), "The Hound of Ulster" (1). One person specifically stated that he liked how not a single episode was filler.
#15 - Setting.
46 people cited the setting, usually the combination of medieval gargoyles in modern New York City. They liked how we depicted the city, how we got it right. Many people also enjoyed the flashbacks to medieval Scotland, and the World Tour episodes that took our cast to locations across the globe.
#16 - Atmosphere.
34 respondents praised the series' gothic atmosphere, running through the writing, design and animation.
#17 - Action.
30 people liked the action. The pure excitement - without being gratuitous.
#18 - The Fandom.
29 people noted that they were either drawn to the show or have remained with it at least in part because of the loyal fandom. An additional 20 found the show inspirational for their own creativity. Another 18 listed the show and its characters as "Aspirational" (although most didn't use that word). 14 more cited personal reasons for why the show was important to them. And it seems that we have many couples who met through the fandom, including multiple married couples who credit the series with bringing them together. 17 people were specifically impressed by the passion and dedication of the Gargoyles cast and crew and their participation in the fandom.
#19 - New for Disney.
28 people were impressed with the show simply for being something new and different for Disney.
#20 - Original Publicity.
11 people cited the series' original publicity for getting their attention and getting them to sit in front of their televisions in the first place. 5 more cited the old syndicated "Disney Afternoon".
That's pretty much it. There were a few other random and/or hard to qualify answers, but the above 20 reasons pretty much cover why the fans still love the series. I know all this sounds incredibly immodest coming from me, but all it takes is a quick skim of the fans' actual responses to see that I'm not exaggerating at all.
Thanks to everyone who participated...
Not a question, or a suggestion (really!), just a quick comment. For your example of What Not To Ask (point #2), you use "Asking if Demona tried to assassinate Hitler during World War II". I'd just like to say that based on my knowledge of Demona, she'd've been more likely to have been fighting on his side, assuming she was involved at all.
No comment.
Yesterday, I made the following request at Station 8's Gargoyles Comment Room:
Hey everybody,
I really need some help. Without going into details about the why, I'd love to get the answer to the following question:
"WHAT ARE THE TOP FIVE REASONS THAT YOU ARE DRAWN TO THE GARGOYLES SERIES?"
We don't need fancy answers -- and of course there's no right or wrong answers -- so don't feel like you need to compose elegant
responses. Just RESPOND, please.
Also, please, spread the word around and have as many fans as possible stop by THIS WEEK and give their answer right here at the S8 Comment Room. It would be much appreciated. Very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Greg Weisman
The responses so far have been very gratifying. I'm particularly impressed with how many people have stopped by the Comment Room that usually don't.
But (with good reason) I'm greedy. I'd like to get even more people to stop by. So please SPREAD THE WORD. E-mail/telephone/snail mail anyone you know who was EVER a GARGOYLES fan and ask them to stop by the Comment room and post their own personal top fives. We really, really, really need something akin to 100% participation.
Here's the address:
http://s8.org/gargoyles/comment2.php
Thanks again,
Greg
Sorry if something is spelled wrong!
Nothing is here.
But thanks for caring. It really is appreciated.
I think that Gargoyles do really exist and Greg do you agree
with me yes or no?
Sure.
Here's a should not have but couldn't resist:
"Greg Bishansky writes...
Happy Rosh Hashanah Greg. Though it may be closeto Channukah when you read this.
Greg responds...
It's past Purim. Pushing Passover. (Pretty pathetic, huh?)
But thanks!
recorded on 03-04-02"
"Pushing Passover"? Is this some knew social problem that will soon hit the newspapers?: "We just don't know how it happened! One day he steps into a synogogue, and the next he's pushing Passover! What are we going to do with 4 extra sets of dishes!? And the whole family has indigestion from all that matzah!"
Of course it'll probably be Succot before you get to this one :)
sorry about the lack of (relevant) question
And two Succot's later...
Replying to Sep 12/Feb 14 Q&A.
Hey Greg,
As usual I'm stressed about college, since it is my first semester and all. Otherwise I'm well.
I'm glad Thom is okay. I haven't heard from Jeff in a while either. The last time was after Christmas, he sent me a card.
I'm not sure if ya'll be seeing me at the Gathering. It might happen it might not.
It is that whole question of: Can I kidnap my best friend, throw her into the trunk of the car and race head long to Virginia, while avoiding getting into a wreck and the cops? My answer to this question: I don't think so. Puck(don't ask me why she calls herself Puck, I haven't a clue.) is bigger than me and weighs more. Also, I don't trust myself behind the wheel of a car I just started learning how to drive.
It is also a question of: How well have I saved up money to go and whether or not I can sneak out of the house to go because much as I love my mom and tollerate my little brother, I'd like to go by myself or with just a friend.
So, I'll see what I can do. You'll know if I'm there I'll probably bug you the first day I get there.
Bye, The Cat
P.S. I know that you've said that we should make different posts for different topics and I guess this would be a multiple topic thing, but I'm replying to your reply so I figured just to post them all in the same area.
Choa!
Hey Cat,
This was all so long ago...
I can't remember what my reply was or whether I saw you in Virginia or not.
Sorry.
Maybe Montreal?
Hi Greg,
No question, just comment. I too was a big fan of Batman, untill "Gargoyles" came onto the scene. I was hooked instantly. I feel that "Gargoyles" far surpassed Batman, in animation, characters, storyline, etc. My favorite character is "Demona". I very easily connect with her, (scary as that is..) I understand her. My all time favorite episode is of course, "City of Stone". It is a work of art in every sense of the word. Thank You for the episodes that we all find so entertaining, and may all your future endeavors bring you the success you so richly deserve.
Thanks for the kind words.
Not a question- just a comment:
I saw a notice on SciFi.com that the latest Starship Troopers DVD was coming out (February). I took a look at it and the other three on Amazon.com. They are a fangirl's ideal! Episodes + lots of comentary (from recognizable names :) + behind the scenes. Now if I could only afford them... oh well, next career.
Still, somebody must be in a profitable profession. If "Amazon.com sale rank" means what I think it does two of the DVDs are among the ~50 and ~60 most common ordered things today. (or were in February)
Between that and noticing Disney has put a little link next to some of the Gargoyles tapes to say "I'd love to see this in DVD form" I think things bode well for a DVD release here too.
Things bode very well, as the DVDs are scheduled to be released in 2004 to coincide with the series tenth anniversary.
And I think those Starship DVDs turned out great. I highly recommend them. (And I get no financial benefit from doing so.)
I just received the following e-mail from my brother:
Subject: proofreading
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:56:49 -0700
From: "Weisman, Jon"
Just my two cents, but I do feel you're a little strident about the proofreading. I'm completely sympathetic to the annoyance/frustration, but your discussion of your own errors undermines your argument. You misspelled a word in the very sentence about proofreading being good training. Then you say there's no point in identifying errors that you make, because you're dyslexic and because you make an effort. Who's to say that your reader isn't dyslexic or doesn't make an effort, either? All "Dan" did in his first sentence was leave out the word "have."
Personally, I think it's fine to ask your readers to proofread better, but I simply think you could be nicer about it. Since your replies do contain errors, good intentions or not, it just doesn't make sense to me to cop an attitude.
- Jon
Jon is, of course, correct. And so I apologize for my rant. In particular, I apologize to "dan" for taking my frustrations out on him.
My only defense is that all the lousy proofreading -- and there really is a lot of it -- creates a kind of cumulative frustration. I really do ignore it most of the time. I make fun of it (I hope in a good-hearted way with a smart-ass response) occassionally, and I only rarely blow a gasket. But that's not much of an excuse.
So let's all try to proofread a bit more, including me -- hell, especially me -- and I'll try to keep my temper.
Again, dan, sorry.
Dexter writes...
Hey Greg,
Call me stupid, but I've seen the pilot "Awakening" several times and I still do not follow the plot! I'm such an idiot. Ok, why did Xanatos got through all that trouble to wake up the Gargoyles just to have them steal disks? Then he used to information on them to makes the Steel Clan, what's the point of that? So now instead of real gargoyles, he had robotic ones. Doesn't make sense. Also, when Goliath and Elisa were attacked in central park, Elisa said she traced the logo back to Cyberbiotics, which Mr. X owned. So does that mean his own people stole disks from him and then he went and restole them back from his own people? Ah! It confuses me. Please clear me up, I've been meaning to ask you about this plot, and now I finally had time to. Thanks!
I can answer part of that! Xanatos did not steal back his own disks. They were from another company, the company that Fox's father owned. Xanatos faked a robbery to make the gargoyles think that when he told them about the disks they were his, when nothing had ever really been stolen from him.
He used the gargoyles to steal these disks to upload his steel clan. By using the Gargoyles, no one would ever suspect him. No one even knew what Gargoyles were I think.
Once he got the stolen disks, he was able to load up his
steel clan, which meant he no longer had a name for the clan.
Since they would be too hard to control, he decided to test his new clan on them. And I'm sure you know the rest. I hope this helps.
It does. Thank you.
Guys, it just goes to show that the fans are a much better first resource than I am. I just flat out take to long (over a year) to get to your questions.
This is something of a musing that I've been pondering for some time about your hinted-at plans to bring Prospero (and other characters from "The Tempest") into "Gargoyles" (it's more a ramble than a genuine question, actually). I was not the least bit surprised by your mention, when you first started up "Ask Greg", to include Prospero in "Gargoyles" somewhere; after all, a series that had already made use of "Macbeth" and "A Midsummer Night's Dream" in its framework would obviously have to bring "The Tempest" in somewhere as well. What I do find myself wondering, from time to time, is the role that Prospero (and Ariel and Caliban as well, if they were to show up - and it's obvious that they would also) would have played in the series, in relation to the other characters.
Because I noticed that the other major Shakespearean characters (Macbeth, Puck, the Weird Sisters, Oberon, and Titania) were actually made an important part of the framework of "Gargoyles", linked up strongly to the central and near-central characters. Macbeth and the Weird Sisters were part of Demona's story (explaining, in particular, how she survived from 994 down to the present day). Oberon, Titania, and Puck were part of Xanatos's story (or Titania at least as Fox's mother and Puck as Owen's true identity, not to mention that Oberon and Titania's attempt to kidnap Alex was what led to the end of the feud between Xanatos and the gargoyles). From this, I believe that we can safely presume that, when Prospero, Ariel, and Caliban would have shown up somewhere in the series (if it had only lasted that long), they would have likewise had strong links with the major characters in the series as part of the framework.
I won't ask what those links were, of course (I know that you don't want to reveal that yet, at least, not in this forum), but that's one reason why a part of me still hopes that you can find some way of continuing "Gargoyles" some day; I'd certainly enjoy finding out when/if that happens just where Prospero, Ariel, and Caliban fit into the Gargoyles Universe, and which major figures in the series they are linked to, at least initially (of course, everybody tends to wind up getting linked to everybody else anyway - Puck with Demona in "The Mirror", the Weird Sisters,Oberon and Titania with the Avalon clan, Macbeth with King Arthur, etc.)
There's truly nothing I'd like to do more, professionally, than to find a true forum (in some medium) for bringing the Gargoyles Tapestry back. I have so many stories still to tell, including those involving Prospero, etc.
And just so you know, so you all know, I'm still working on it. I haven't given up.
I recently skimmed through you smart-ass responses and I ran in to this question from matt: ok, a beast generally lays more than three eggs in a lifetime. and you are being difficult (as always) and not being very specific... ok, we know that beast mature and can mate a generation before other gargs, and we know that beast live about the same length of time that other gargs do, but can beast continue having children after other gargs stop? if not then garg beast can have about 4 eggs, if so, they could have alot of eggs, i think.
so, how many eggs can a female garg beast generally lay?
you responded: The world may never know.
(That smart-ass response was a reference to an old tootsie-pop commercial. Anyone old enough to remember it has my sympathy.)
I'm quite familiar with that commercial and I'm only 20, so I guess that makes me old, huh? And to think I used to feel so young and virile, too...
I think they must repeat it periodically. I'm nearly twice (TWICE) your age, and it first ran when I was a kid.
Hey...where did you go???? Holiday?
Have a good time? Happy new year.
Happy New Year to you too. Twice over.
Hi Greg,
First of all let me just say, i have been a huge fan of gargoyles since it came out in the UK. I waited all week for it to come on on saturday mornings and collected all the gargoyles toys i could with my pocket money :D Unfortunatley it was taken off air some years ago after "City of Stone part 4". I have now got toon disney and have managed to watch the series as much as possible.But there is a REALLY annoying problem, and im not sure you will be able to answer my question, but if so...here goes!
WHY ON EARTH do they stop gargoyles after the avalon episodes and go right on to the goliath chronicles?! Its maddening!! I have looked all over the web and seen all the episodes i have missed out on :(((
I have also watched clips from some of the episodes and they look soooo cool!!!
I have no idea. Had no idea that they were doing that. It of course makes no sense and annoys the heck out of me. Sorry, I can't be of any help.
Why don't you throw a brick through Eisner's window, then when he looks at the brick, he sees it's not a brick, but a small statue of Goliath. Then he'll have no choice but to bring back the show.
You must have taken Logic in school.
And I'd love to leave it at that, but I'd like to once again make the point that Eisner is not the bad guy keeping Gargoyles off the air. The decision making is no longer done at his level but at three or four levels down at least.
Punchinello and yourself discussed "sententiousness" in quite lenghty detail. If I remember right the main buckling of the topic of one's being sentient was ultimately his ability to communicate ideas. I don't seem to remember any talk about awareness of thought and decision.
If a Russian speaker was adopted into your household, and could not understand nor speak a single word of English, you cannot communicate with him on any level of aphroristic expression (if you infact cannot speak Russian). In fact the communication would very much be like that between man and an animal. When he wants a drink and says (whatever in Russian means 'I want to drink your water'); you will overtime perhaps reckognize what he wants through mere repitition. Never though be able to ask him if he liked the water, describe the compositional qualities that make up the glass, or how the purification system(s) in your water plant makes that water safe for you and your family to drink. You can say it he won't know it.
Yet he can still make the moral judgement on his own princibles that he understands in his own language as to if he will leave the toilet seat up or not. His sentience is still very much intact as is yours, but in communication most of what we consider humanesque intelligible relay of thought is lost.
He can learn but he may not learn English just as you can but may not learn Russian. Words are words, but diction, structural differences, and phonetic discrepencies between the two languages make changing your thinking process from thinking as an Englishmen(English speaking man not man born on England) to thinking as a Russian quite likely impossible. Even if you learn Russian as to be able to go to Moscow and fool everyone into thinking that you are indeed a native Russian. Your nueral networking will still under most serious probability process thought in English just, as it does; it will translate that process to Russian in a fashion quite like my thoughts now are magically appearing in this post box thingy by mere change of production from thought to text by fingur relay in the procession from mind to hand to finger to keyboard to computer to eventually cyber-wherever. I do not think like a keyboard or a computer yet I can communicate using one but only in the language I am prepared to use it with.
Gargoyles as well can type on keyboards and relay thought. Lexington with very little experience in terms of years and could only practice at night, was able to punch a keyboard judging by the "clicking" sound of the keyboard at nearly 129 words per minute, without looking and locate Coldstone in MacBeth's mansion. Quite impressive really. Yet his thoughts were in English. (note if you were in Madrid when you first seen Gargoyles and they spoke in Spanish and of course you did too you might argue they thought in Spanish and you would most likely be right mi amigo). But not as an English Man but and English Gargoyle again not as a nationality but as a tongue. Still Lex's moral judgements can be made too stand on thier own and can communicate with anything Man or Gargoyle or Oberon's Child that also speaks English, whether they think "English" or not.
Language is not merely a tool for communication it is a way of thinking Eskimos have something like seven words that really just mean "snow". Yet an Eskimo thinks like an Eskimo and can judge the minor differences in the type of snow they see and to them one kind of snow is not "a" snow but a "d" snow and ect..
Luckily for us I suppose that as humans we all relatively think alike even with our differing way of thinking. The means of production are different but the product is still the same. This allows for learning multiple languages each human no matter his language that language has the ability to "learn" or adapt to the use of another language and that is quite a remarkable thing. Almost too remarkable to be chance.
I don't have the full answer, just what I feel like that (and as arrogantly as I can feel it) that I know what perhaps I know or don't know and go with that by fusing it with things that I learn or that are revealed to me by you and others who post and participate. I very much enjoy this site and the people who participate it is so cool, this is the greates fandom in the world.
You say you don't have the full answer. I'm just not clear what the question was.
I don't disagree with anything you said, except for the notion that Punchinello and I were defining sentience as simply the ability to communicate. I don't think either of us ever did that.
And I agree: Greatest Fandom in the World.
Hi Greg:
I was just watching "City of Stone". It is a beutiful piece of work. I am very fond of it.
I espicially like the one scene where that woman runs up to Travis Marshall to relate what had happened and he just totally blows her off as "crazy". That got me thinking we ALL do that (as humans) completely discount the minority view as absurd and stupid. Classic example "The Flat Earth Society", oh, we just love to make fun of them. I have decided to be more open minded to even the most seemingly crazy ideas or beliefs. I have watched "CoS" many times but that scene never really hit me like it did just today. Was that intentional on your part? To show the err in human ways. You've said all things are true and what she said was true, just because no one believed her doesn't make it no less right. It reminded me of a Greek Philosopher I think his name was Isocrates I am not sure and his quote went
"If all mankind, minus one; were of a common opinion except the one of a differing opinion. All of mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one, than he, if he had the power; would be justified in silencing all of mankind..."
More things I loved about this episode.
King Duncan's death, in my mind one of the top 10 animated deaths ever.
Demona, saves Gruoch and Macbeth when she could have had her vengence, she chose the nobler of the two courses, made me feel all happy inside. I must admit though killing Gilcoumgain then would have saved her a lot of trouble and heart break later on.
Her plan was very sinister, and her killing of the statued humans was a very dark contrast to her more kind-hearted younger self we had just seen earlier in eps like "Vows". I also liked this too, she's not soft and weak as she is commited to her cause and for that I commend her. I agree with her goals, her means are brutal and me being human will make me possibly feel the urge to resist being smited, but I hope she sees her dream out and accomplishes it, power to her.
One thing very much dissapointed me, relating to Demona when she gave the access code to Goliath and Xanatos the code was "ALONE", not one you'd imagine she'd pick, totally took me by suprise when I first saw it; but Goliath was apparently unaffected by her choice of a password and the huge water works under her eyes. Does he have a heart of stone? She's not even real (I think), and I feel a lump in my throat, every time I see that; yet he knows she's real and didn't even care, creep.
MacBeth, what can I say I think he is great. I think his story is one of the more tragic on the show. Considering all that happens, he always loved and still loves Gruoch. The one time that we see him actually take interest in life and love again he is set up by Dominique and Thailog. His plight is very dramatic. Living but having to as Gruoch said "Remain dead", dead to his country, his home, and his family.
Gruoch: Even though she gets very little air time on the series I think she is great. My second favorite female character. She is strong, smart, wise, intuitive, loving, radiant, and very honest in commiting to her duty. I espicially like how she stood up to Demona at the end, what courage. She even scorned the Hunter as "Oh mighty" with her sarcasm, 'your not mighty your a coward'. I cannot see how you could not love her.
"COS" has its share of humorous wit to it as well. I absoulutely love this:
Elisa: "..the signal came from Pak-Media studios you own it so as usual this is your fault!"
Owen: "Mr. Xanatos is trying to fix things. What are you doing to help?"
I love Elisa's expression, that's good stuff.
-Since I do not want to go into great lenghty deatail about every detail of the show..-
King Duncan- Very paranoid.
Hudson+Trio- not much to say
Boudie(SP)- Probably has his heart in the right place but man what a --well cowardly guy--
Demona's Betrayl of MacBeth- this shocked me, leave him to die at the castle but she actually contacted Kenmore?
Wierd Sisters- I HATE them. I think they are corrupt, vile, and wicked, they should burn in a fiery lake in the seventh circle of Hell somewhere. For a very, very long time. (I make this judgement with my Knowledge of the "Avalon" eps)
Vengence begats nothing more than a vicious cycle of further vengence- true perhaps, but highly over exaggerated.
The betrayl of the Cast Wyvern- I want to know who slept at Demona's roost. When the Vikings sacked it.
Bronx and Demona's encounter- I loved it. Good job.
Demona and Macbeth- It's amazing how it goes, I like when Demona came back from the fight all happy and swirled Macbeth high off the ground. Her joyous attitude was refreshing, yet all to short in length.
That's all for this post. Thanks for listening.
Vanity~
A few responses to your comments...
1. Yes, the scene with Travis and the woman was a comedic way to make exactly that point.
2. Can't say I'm rooting for Demona to succeed. I'm rooting for Demona, but not in that way.
3. We had an entire contest to explain "Alone" and got some very interesting responses. You might check them out in the contest archive here at ASK GREG.
4. I think it's presumptuous of you to assume you know exactly what Goliath was feeling. But one thing to keep in mind is that he had just witnessed the results of her mass murder spree.
5. I've said this before, but we all got to watch Emma Samms blossom as a voice actress over the course of just these four episodes. She had never done cartoons before. She was a bit stiff in Gruoch's first appearance, but, MAN, by COS4, she was just ROCKING!!! I give her and voice director Jamie Thomason a ton of credit for really bringing Gruoch to life when we needed it most.
6. I'm not sure that Bodhe did have his heart in the right place -- until, I like to think, the very end.
7. The notion that vengeance begets nothing more than a vicious cycle of further vengeance, is not only true but is if anything UNDERSTATED. Hardly exagerated. One only has to look at a newspaper to see that the Montagues and Capulets of this world simply refuse to recognize this obvious, obvious FACT. It drives me insane. Your casual dismissal of the notion doesn't thrill me either. (Sorry.)
8. You're welcome. I like your posts.
Hey Greg!
I hope you had a wonderful christmas time and a roarin' new year! :)
All the best,
Andrea
Thanks. I did. Twice.
How's married life?
Hello all, hello Greg,
I've been absent for a while (did anyone miss me??), but now there are a few things I want to say.
First of all I never said thank you for such a great animated series - still the best I've ever seen. It can be seen that you wanted to make it very good and not just tried to create something for a quick success. Nearly no one-dimensional characters, complex stories that can't be every time easily understood, a continuing plot and not every episode the same story with the some characters and the same end, all this makes Gargoyles to one of the best series ever. What I liked very much either are the (not too) dark atmosphere, some fantasy elements and the elements of old mythologies.
Unfortunately I haven't seen any episode for a few years (any German out there who knows when the last one was aired?). Because of this I appreciate your work with answering all of our questions. I don't know if I had the motivation for this.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that some day new episodes will be aired. But what about the real life movie? Do you know anything new?
As far as I know, the live-action movie is currently on hold at Touchstone. Shelved. Sorry. I guess they were just never able to crack the script to their satisfaction.
<<You idiot! Did you not read the no ideas clause on the main askgreg page or are you just pretending to be stupid!>>
I found this to be a remarkable statement.
Hello Mr. Weisman.
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine recently about new kinds of conventions in contemporary fiction, (it was less a conversation than a herculean effort on his part to _educate me_ about some of these things which I should know more about) and the topic of literary devices imported from things that are generally considered banal or somehow inferior to literature came up. The Sunday funnies, technical manuals, etc. He brought up something that I thought you would find interesting. I wanted to find out if you had any reaction to this, as I gather that you consider introducing young people to literature very important and this is something which is (possibly) maligning the way in which they perceive it.
My friend explained the phenomenon of these "adventure card games" to me. I guess the pokemon fall into this category. (Horrifying little things) There are also all manner of these dungeons and dragons type games. Apparently a convention has developed among people who play the games of generating fiction using the cards. For instance, each player would represent a character internal to a story and the cards they play with would dictate the structure of a work of fiction they were creating and "acting out" at the same time. The interesting thing about this is that characters within this convention are frequently developed by means of a pre defined list of "character attributes." Once again, for instance, you would have a condition like
10 personality types. Pick one.
10 types of conventional behavior. Pick one.
10 types of hats. Pick one.
The idea seems to be that character development emerges from the intersection of these variables. Even though I'm certain that this kind of convention could be exploited towards an interesting end in literature, I found this sort of "amateur authors" version of writing very limiting, and the whole method of lists of typical character attributes seems to be an arbitrary convention that was being maintained for the sake of game playing. It's all very silly.
The reason I mention all of this is because my friend told me that he has observed a trend among many amateur authors and many young aspiring authors to use this same kind of convention when writing. He sees characters being treated as though the author were at a buffet, and the author were allowed one "feature" for each little spot on his tray. He sees this a lot. He teaches a creative writing class at the moment and has noticed this sentiment that people are coming into the class with, that if they string together a lot of trivia about a fictional person, a real character will emerge as if by magic. He sees them conduct this exercise a lot where they define a character with...
John lives in Wisconsin.
John works in the Madison public Library.
John likes his job okay.
He mentioned he sees this limiting perspective carry over into their observations of other peoples writing. This way of thinking seems to prevent them from really experiencing a character. It seems they can only define the character for themselves from within the context of this kind of trivia.
He asked me if I had seen this obsession over trivia instead of character anywhere else. I immediately realized that I had! It usually takes the form of...
Where did fox get her tattoo?
Who were Mab's parents?
Who were Oberon's parents?
Who were Titania's parents?
Who were anansi's parents?
Will Brooklyn have children?
How many children?
Will his children have names?
Will those names begin with a consonant or a vowel?
This is why some people so appreciate your continued participation with this board. I'm really just writing this because I would like to read any general reaction you have to it. However, I think I would not be alone in wanting to hear you comment on the kind of questions outlined above (of which you field many). I think I kind of resent the implication in some of these questions that, as the author, you should know the names and mailing addresses of all of Elisa's cousin's three times removed, along with their favorite foods and weight at birth. Is there something you think is essentially being missed with questions like these? Maybe if you were to share with your fans, the kind of dialogue you think is worthwhile and exciting, you would see the trivia questions replaced with more real dialogue about "Gargoyles."
Well, let's start with the "buffet"/game-playing writing style.
I think it's awful.
Having said that, I have this friend, a garg fan who's now a pretty darn successful writer. When I read her first book, I felt that the first half of it was written in that way. As if rolls of the dice determined who each character was, what he or she could do and what happenned to them.
The second half of the book was MUCH better. She took a few of the characters from the first half and delved much deeper into their lives and their stories.
When I asked her about it, she confessed (if that's the word) that I was dead on. The first half of the book was her almost literally setting to prose a game of D&D that she had played.
I don't recommend doing that, but look at the result. The second half of the novel, inspired as it was by the first half, was wonderful. And she's moved forward with these characters into other books as well.
My point is that people get inspiration from all sorts of places. I get it from Shakespeare, for example, and Shakespeare got his from all sorts of other sources. A good writer can take something that begins as an exercise... maybe a worthwhile exercise or maybe a dubious one... and turns it into something real and meaningful.
The question -- your first question, I think -- is whether these writers ever grow out of the exercise or whether they become trapped in them. Well, the answer is obviously both. Some will transcend, as some writers always have.
But your second question is more serious. Does this process in fact impair the reader/audience. Forget that some of these guys will never be great writers, will this make them bad readers?
I don't know. But my guess is that it's the same (or similar) percentage of people who would have been bad readers in the first place. The good ones will transcend. The others won't. That's my hypothesis.
Now, bringing it more specifically to ASK GREG and the "trivia questions" I often get, well, I have mixed feelings.
In some ways, trivia is exactly what this forum is for. After all, just a minute ago I fielded a question from a guy who wanted me to lay out ALL the story arcs for Bad Guys. That's not going to happen, as I told him. This isn't a forum for storytelling. It's a forum for people to get a peak inside the box, (the box being my head).
And in fact, I know no zip codes, but I am a font of unrevealed trivia about the show. I do know more about these characters then 66 episodes has revealed. Some of it I like to keep to myself, some of it I like to tease. Some of it I don't mind revealing and have done so.
So a lot comes down to the intent of the questioner, and you can usually tell, if not in a single post then in the range of posts that that person submits. If I get 16 posts in a row asking something like, "Who is Maggie's father?" followed by "Who is Claw's father?" followed by "Who is Fang's father?" or if I get requests for laundry lists of things, "Name all the ancient heroes who have encountered Oberon," then you can bet that the questioner was looking for a question to ask, as opposed to trying to deepen his or her understanding of the show or character.
But sometimes a so-called trivial question can lead to just that. Look at your list above. Some of it seems stupid, but some of the answers to some of those questions would certainly lead to a better understanding. "Who were Oberon's parents?" Once upon a time, I hadn't revealed the answer to that. Eventually, I revealed that Oberon's mother was Mab. And that revelation, and the info I gave about Oberon's overthrowing of his mother, certainly lends something to one's understanding of his character. I haven't yet revealed who his father is. Not in the mood. But I would hope that learning that would also effect one's understanding of the character.
And again, I think you can often (though not always) tell by the question itself if that's what the questioner is seeking. A deeper understanding about some aspect of the show.
So sometimes, it does get annoying. But mostly I enjoy doing this. (I do think that doing a little a day has been a much better system than trying to do big batches of questions all at once. I get less annoyed when not burdened with the cumulative effects of annoyance.)
Do I wish this could be more of a forum for ideas and discussion? Well, yeah, duh. I've invited that in the past, and, P., I always enjoy reading and responding to your posts.
(Although what you quoted at the head of your post:
<<You idiot! Did you not read the no ideas clause on the main askgreg page or are you just pretending to be stupid!>>
I found this to be a remarkable statement.
is a bit lost on me out of context. I can't believe I wrote the first quote.)
Admittedly, we do have a problem with making this a forum right now. The FLOOD. The flood of submissions during a period when I all but ceased to answer questions (all around the time of 9/11 and following) created a backlog so immense that creating a forum is nearly impossible. Now it truly is impossible, as we have temporarily shut down the submission function. You can't respond to this response.
I'd love to try and solve this problem, and I've made suggestions. But ultimately this isn't my site, it's Gorebash's. Until he's ready, willing and able to initate a new system, we're stuck with me slowly catching up.
I hope that 18 months later you're still checking ASK GREG and reading this. I hope that you'll compose your response and hold on to it, submitting it when we finally get things back up and running. But even if you're not, even if you're long gone, thanks for raising some interesting issues.
Hey,
You ever get tired of answering all these questions? Like this one, "How come blah blah blah and blah dont blah blah blah, and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." After reading a page or two of questions they all started to fade together into one simple demand. "TELL ME EVERYTHING YOU WILL KNOW, HAVE KNOWN AND PRESENTLY KNOW ABOUT GARGOYLES!!!" You've either got the patience of a saint or.... well I dont know what.
Thankyou for helping to create such a fantastic and fulfilling story/world. You can tell if something is great fantasy if it makes the everyday world seem all the more pale and ordinary.
And now on to the questions.......
Sometimes individual questions do annoy me, I'll confess. But I generally enjoy doing this, or frankly... I wouldn't.
Aris- Yes I know western centric doesn't fit I was looking for something like ethnocentric.
"Anyway, the Greeks, Norse, whatever had their deities be finite creatures which began their lives within the universe. There's a difference between that and a supposedly infinite God which *created* the universe. I can imagine the monotheists being upset if they discovered their god was a fay - if The Infinite proved finite, only one of many. But the Norse and the ancient Greeks already believed that there existed many gods. Why be too upset at discovering a couple more they hadn't heard about?"
Thats not my point, my point is that making the God of the gargoyles universe the God of Jews/Christians/Muslims makes it seem that they're superior to all these other cultures since they worship the true god while the other cultures worhip energy beings.
I'll just sit back and let you guys talk.
Well, maybe I won't.
Anyway, I got your point, G. But it's based on facts not in evidence, as I said before.
Galvatron> I think you are confusing Greg's words and intent... His take is after all something like "Everything is true for a given value of 'true'"...
He never said that Muslims, Jews and Christians are *correct* in everything they believed. That might indeed be offensive - but it would also be impossible to pull off, since after all, they believe in some contradictory things as well.
From what I understand, Greg said that these guys worship what they perceive as Infinite and as Creator. That's factually correct in our real world. And then he went on to say that such an Infinite and a Creator exists. Some of the more specific beliefs may well be wrong.
Pagans believed in Zeus or Odin or Osiris or many others gods. And Greg says that, yes, Zeus and Odin and Osiris also exist. But some of the more specific beliefs about them may also be wrong.
So your claim seems to me to be nothing more than "Odin isn't portrayed as Infinite!". To which my response is: "He was never supposed to be, not even by the Norse themselves."
Now if Greg went on to portray the afterlife exactly as Christianity portrays it, *that* might be a bit exclusive... But it seems to me that he's going for a diversity of afterlives, a bit similar to what Terry Pratchett did...
(Weirdly enough however I *was* annoyed by the intrusion of monotheism and dualism in shows like Hercules & Xena which previously featured polytheistic pantheons. But that was more because it seemed to me to subvert the very theme of the heroism of "Man vs gods" and turn it into "The Real God[tm] vs the many false gods"... Greg portrays a universe where all these beliefs can pretty much coexist. The producers of Xena, on the other hand decided to portray a universe where they must fight to the death - the introduction of The One God immediately made the lesser gods something evil which needed to be destroyed. Bleh! )
Sorry for the rant, Greg! :-)
No prob.
But I do think both of you have sort of missed the point. Personally, I believe in both God and evolution. I'm also a bit of a pantheistic pagan, and I don't find any of these notions mutually exclusive. But that's me.
What I believe I've always said about the show is that whatever you believe created OUR universe also created the garg universe. If that's one or more of the above (plus or minus) something else, fine.
Possibly starting a debate...
Galvatron> Umm... "western"-centric because Greg made western deities such as those of the Greeks or the Norse be children of Oberon? Do you think that Athens is somehow located to the *east* of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Mecca?
I assure you, it's not. :-)
Anyway, the Greeks, Norse, whatever had their deities be finite creatures which began their lives within the universe. There's a difference between that and a supposedly infinite God which *created* the universe. I can imagine the monotheists being upset if they discovered their god was a fay - if The Infinite proved finite, only one of many. But the Norse and the ancient Greeks already believed that there existed many gods. Why be too upset at discovering a couple more they hadn't heard about?
THANK YOU!!!!
Don't you feel it's alittle bit western centric making the god of the Greeks, Norse and all the other "pagan cultures" Children of Oberon who are no better than the non-corporeal beings of scifi while the God of Judaism, Islam, Christianity is actually the creator of the universe? I mean it's like saying that they're stupid for getting suckered in by the Children while we're smart for actually worshipping the true God.
Well, first off ALL THE GODS you mentioned are "Western Culture" gods. All of them. So it's hardly Western centric -- beyond the fact that we got more western culture into the show period.
Second, I have never confirmed or denied the existance of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic GOD in the series. I have left that to every individual character and viewer's view of the universe. So I've hardly given the Abrahamist religions priority over the old "pagan cultures".
Finally, not to split hairs, wow, you got me. I've made fictional characters out of the gods of myth. Shocking.
This is The Cat,
Thank you for answering my questions. You answered the more important ones today or yesterday. Anyothers I have are a bit depressing and don't really need to be answered, so if you don't want to answer them that is okay.
Uh... okay.
I'd just like to thank you for creating such an dramatic and educational show which got me interested in Shakespeare and all those legends that appeared in the Avalon World Tour including Cuchullain, Raven and the Kichinas. Finally I'd like to thank you for answering my hundred or so question which I imagine was a very tedious task.
You're welcome.
Oh. and while I'm here...
Do you think when Aaron finally tracks down Marina Sirtis and asks her to sign the Demona tatoo on his chest that she'll do it gracefully, or will she have someone distract him and then run away really fast?
Even odds.
(Although I can't imagine she hasn't encountered far weirder/scarier Trek fans than our Aaron -- who still reminds me of a young Tom McMinn.)
Greg writes: "There's the amazing NEW GUY. He's terrifying."
Does NEW GUY come from the planet Mertz? If so, that really would be terrifying.
I don't even remember what I was talking about.
And Planet Mertz sounds familiar, but I can't place it right now.
Artemis writes: "They can't flip people off either!"
Sure they can! Not having a ring or pinkie talon (consensus differs as to which gargs don't have) doesn't mean you don't have a middle talon, and thus, still have the ability to flip people the bird. (Yes Greg, we have sat around and debated this)
No argument.
Shavri wrote: "...Anyway, I'm just glad the whole thing was a dream_sequence scheme created by Puck and not something that would actually happen in "your" Gargoyle Universe."
By contrast, I *loved* the idea of a Brooklyn/Demona romance. It's one of the many reasons Future Tense is my favorite episode. But then, I've seen too much anime and believe the bickering couple will always end up together by the end of the series. ;) (It's also one of the funniest touches of FT, IMHO, that only in a world where everything else has gone to Hell can Brooklyn have a happy relationship)
http://www.avalonhigh.com
I enjoyed it too.
But I'm still holding out for Katana.
Greg writes:
"If Disney 'goes under' (a fairly ridiculous notion) than the property becomes one of their assets."
I dunno, Disney was $19 BILLION in the hole, last time I looked. Buying Fox Family alone set them back a little over five billion, which is I'm sure a great deal more then Fox paid (Was it Pat Robertson who used to own it, back when it was just TFC?) for it. Attendance at the parks, at least stateside, is at an all time low, and that was before the horrible events of September 11th which, aside from the devastating loss of life, depressed an American economy already sliding toward recession. (And certainly didn't make anybody feel like running out and going to Disneyland) All the Disney Stores in the US are closing as soon as their leases are up. Of course you're right, the idea that they'd sell off anything is still absurd. They'll just make cut-backs, (Like canceling Team Atlantis) and lay people off until the ship rights itself again. More's the pity.
If it's any consolation, in contrast to Entity's view, I think you've gotten sillier since G2K1. "On second thought, let's not go to Ask Greg, 'tis a silly place." ;)
http://www.exploitationnow.com
I've certainly gotten sillier since G1997.
Re: The Weird Sisters.
"Their tri_part mission."
Luna's log, Stardate: Um... It's hard to tell from Avalon.
These are the adventures of the Weird Sisters, our tri-part mission, to seek out new life, and play mind games with it... To find new ways to plague Demona... To boldly never give a straight answer to anything!
I have entirely too much free time.
And, so this'll have a question in it, is Puck's magic flute connected to the opera "The Magic Flute"?
http://www.pvponline.com
Maybe. Haven't seen that opera.
Greg writes: "(That smart_ass response was a reference to an old tootsie_pop commercial. Anyone old enough to remember it has my sympathy.)"
Actually, I'm pretty sure the tootsie-pop people have reused that one sometime in the last five years. I think I even saw that commercial while watching gargs.
http://www.megatokyo.com
That's cool.
Greg writes: "In 1040, after the bargain, she (Demona) was 35 (Macbeth's chronological age). She still looks great though, doesn't she?"
I think that's worth a Hell Yeah!
http://www.sinfest.net
Hell, yeah!
Hi Greg,
I noticed that you type up notes about scripts of different episodes occasionally. ie. "The Mirror", "Eye of the Beholder" etc. Are you typing these up in any particular order? Or are they just being typed up randomly? I haven't seen notes/big ramblings on Hunter's Moon. (hint hint) Although I must admit I LOVED that scene that was never animated in the third episode between Jason and Elisa in the clocktower ruins. That was a nice touch.
I also just wanted to thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to answer our questions. I've been a fan of Gargoyles since the show aired. When I found this website I was in my glory with all the new information that was archived here. (Many thanks to Gorebash for this website as well!) So I just wanted to thank you for sharing what you have. You've made an E/G Fan VERY happy and inspired. Take care
You're welcome.
I was watching and rambling on the episodes in their correct animation airing order. I got through the first 42 (out of 66) episodes before I had to take a break due to other committments. Now I'm hesitant to start up again both because time is still scarce and also because we have some much discussed problems here at ASK GREG, i.e. a backlog of questions that has me responding to something you posted in November of 2001 here in April of 2003. We've discussed a number of solutions, but all are sort of waiting on Gorebash. His site.
So it'll be awhile before I get to Hunter's Moon.
This covers much the same ground as one of my posts in the Comment Room on the night of October 25, but I thought that I'd post it here as well, to give you all the better an opportunity of reading it.
I was quite intrigued with your remark that you'd decided long ago that Jean Valjean existed in the Gargoyles Universe. The reason for that was that, up until now, whenever "Gargoyles" made use of "pre-existing" fictional characters, it was almost always people from literature, at latest, in the early modern period (as in Shakespeare's characters). The Gargoyles Universe is certainly rich in characters from myth and legend, and early literature such as Shakespeare's plays. But so far as I could tell, nobody in literature post-dating Shakespeare's time period found their way directly into the Gargoyles Universe. Some may be alluded to (such as Sherlock Holmes in "The Hound of Ulster"), or have "Gargoyles Universe" analogies (such as the Frankenstein monster with Coldstone), but none had yet shown sides of being actual characters who were real instead of fictional in that universe. (Well, maybe Dracula, whom you had mentioned intending to include in time, but since Bram Stoker based him on the historical Vlad the Impaler, he's not entirely a product of the 19th century).
So it definitely raised my eyebrows when you mentioned that decision on your part about Jean Valjean. I don't know if you'd actually reached the point of planning to have him appear somewhere in the series (a lot of it, I imagine, would depend on whether "Les Miserables" is in the public domain or not as yet), but it certainly surprised me.
I'm just assuming that Les Miserables is in the public domain. Obviously, I'd have to check that before going forward with any plans.
I don't have a specific story in mind for ol' Jean, but I do have a pretty clear handle on how I'd interpret the character.
And it shouldn't surprise you too much. As I've stated before, given enough time and episodes, the plan has always been to include -- one way or another -- everything. (At least everything that's in the public domain.)
Something that I've occasionally wondered about the general "bring-back-Gargoyles" attitude that is so strong in the fandom. I've pondered, from time to time, the possibility that the general disappointment that nearly everybody in the fandom felt over the "Goliath Chronicles" may have been a major factor here, that one of the leading reasons why so many "Gargoyles" fans want the show to return is that they were disappointed with the episodes that followed "The Journey", and wanted to see the events following the gargoyles' revelation to the world and the formation of the Quarrymen done "correctly". Do you think indeed that this could be a major reason for this attitude?
You got me.
I guess I hope it has more to do with what we did right in the first 66 episodes than what they did wrong in the last 12. But beggers can't be choosers. Whatever keeps the fandom going is good news.
And just a reminder, the BEST thing you can do as a fan is to attend one of the yearly Garg conventions. Info on this summer's con can be found at:
(sorry, no questions this time, but)
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU (and all those other people) for all the Scottish history in the show. Because of it, I am totally facinated with the topic. It's even better that I know cuz I am from scottish decent (as well as a little english and irish), and my other side came from france (sounds like someone in the show, ne?)
Also, it has inspired me to read Macbeth, and I used to hate Shakespeare!
So thanx again to you and all the little peoples!
And while I'm on the topic of scottish history, can you PLEASE finish "Once Upon a Time there were Three Brothers"? I'd make me very happy!
You're very welcome.
As I've mentioned before, "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" is kind of finished. For starters, there are only two brothers left. And although it wasn't necessarily my original intent, the piece wound up being more of a prologue to DARK AGES. So I took Three Brothers right up to the point where Dark Ages begins. And I stopped. To keep going would in fact be to begin Dark Ages, which is a HUGE project, that I'm not prepared to take on right now.
But I'm glad you liked it. It was, I think, my first and only attempt at Fan Fiction.
Dear Greg,
I know I'm breaking the "Ask Greg" Rules here, but I figured this was the only way to get in touch with you. I Just wanted to say thank you for making me feel welcome at the gathering 2001. I've wanted to sit down and type this to you for a long time, but time is something I no longer am able use for such simple things. The whole time I was in L.A. I was nervous enough to be so far from home, but no one there seemed to notice me. The Mini-clanners tried there best to make me feel part of something, but It became clearly evident that I didn't fit in there clan eather. People I knew Online wouldn't say hi to me, the one person I thought was my true friend Denis Duplaen was off in his own world with a girl he met, and Demona May drove me freekin' nutz! I truely know how Brooklyn felt when the clan became caught up in there personal affairs and he had no one to talk to. I left L.A. being more depressed then I've ever been in my life, wishing the plane would crash or something.... But I wouldn't have changed a thing if I could, cause I now realize the valuable lesson this all taught me. That no matter how much you think you are apart of something, and feel like you belong, It doesn't mean that People care about you and how you feel. I don't blame anyone but myself for feeling this way, but I also learned that not everybody... er.. better make that hardly anybody likes heavy metal, and just cause you devote time and effort to something, it doesn't mean anyone will care. Now I know that I need to just worry more about what I need to do, rather then what others think of me. I hope to thank Jeff Bennet too. That guy was awesome and we got to talk a bit at Mug-A-Guest. I also wanted to appoligize for not seeming like the biggest gargoyles fan eather. I love the show with all my heart, but I've never had the time to watch every epsiode over and over till I've memorised every event and name and stuff. I've been working hard since I was 14 and now I'm paying bills for my parents. Its not easy to balace 2.5 jobs and school. I envy the people that have the time to watch T.V. everyday.
Well, I'm sorry I rambled on like this, I know you are a much busyer man than I. Thank you for you time and happy late Birthday to you!
Slash T.
(Dan W.)
Slash/Dan
I'm sorry your experience at G2001 was a let-down. I feel that I contributed to that, and I do apologize. I still think about it.
But I am curious. Did you have fun at G2000? I mean it couldn't have been too bad, since you came back for more, right?
Anyway, sometimes we build our expectations too high. I'm not sure even the letdown you describe merits some of the more dire conclusions (or 'lessons') that you have chosen to draw from it.
I hope you give the Gathering another chance some day (like this month). But if not, good luck.
Happy birthday greg, i know you won't read this for months, so happy hanukah to while i'm at it:D
Nearly Happy 4th of July, huh?
Thanks.
Hey Greg Weisman --
I know this may be late, but I've busy with work at the Video Connection, so --
Happy Birthday! YOU RULE!!!
Thanks!
I couldn't get online yesterday to wish you a happy birthday, Sorry!
Today at band practice, for the first time it occured to me that Gaygolyes have somewhat limited hand use, having only 4 fingers. For example, you could never get one to properly play a flute, clarinet, and even trumpets (they probably wouldn't anyway, but still), since they require 5 fingers per hand. They can't flip people off either! (that is, if they really wanted to). Oh well, just a stupid comment. But while my mind is on the topic, why did you decide for them to have only 4 fingers anyway?
Frankly, it tends to look better in animation. It also set them apart more.
Hey Greg,
Happy Birthday!
Ok, that wasn't a question, but hey I'm out of ideas at the moment. You're probably thinking, "Thank God!"
Bye.
Thank God.
No, I mean, thank you!!!
Hi Greg!
Just wanted to say Happy Birthday! Mine was yesterday, so it's easy for me to remember when yours is. Don't know how it is for you, but birthdays have taken on a little stronger meaning for me since the tragedy. I'm old enough that I start to think of birthdays a bit cynically (one year older, etc... I'm 29, BTW), but there are a lot of people won't have any more birthdays ever, so I'm very grateful to be home celebrating with my family and other people I care about. Hope you're doing the same. All the best to you and your family in the year to come!
P.S. Now, can you tell us what Titania whispered to Fox? Just kidding. ;)
My birthday was over eight months ago, and I can honestly say I don't really remember it. I think I was still in a haze.
But thanks for the good-wishes.
And P.S. No.
Happy Birthday Greg W.
Sorry it wan't a question but I have to say it before I forgot again..
Thanks, Demona May. (Course, I'm closer to my next birthday at this point, but the thought is very much appreciated.)
Personally, if GARGOYLES was still on the air, I would prefer it pay as little notice to the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center as possible. GARGOYLES was about many things, but it dealt with them in its own, contained way. It created its own situations and through them addressed real life issues. I would not want GARGOYLES to become a commentary on current events. It's a fantasy/sci-fi show, and therefore removed from our world, both by theory and in established practice. GARGOYLES is best a timeless show, don't you agree?
Generally, yes.
And, as I think I've said, I can't think of a respectful way to deal with it anyhow. And if I can't deal with the topic with respect, than I won't deal with it at all. Except perhaps to inform character.
Lastly the hard one: I took a quick look through the waiting to be answered section, (mea culpa, I don't usually check that part, only the actually answered sections), and I saw a few questions about the recent terrorist attack and the Gargoyles universe. I too am wondering what your thoughts on it are. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but my gut reaction is that you would want to deal with it. Gargoyles never stayed away from difficult issue, and this one came to it. If and (hopefully) when the show continues in some form, and assuming Disney allows you to, how would you handle it? Until now you have said you are leaning to continuing the show post Journey and going through the intervening years at a quick pace. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious what year it is in the story, but the people who are interested would be able to fit it into place and know the time frame from the internet. Now the time frame will be obvious with the most cursory glance.
Aside from the logistics of fitting it in and when, is the issue of how. Gargoyles has it easier than your run of the mill superhero. First off, it happened in the morning, so there us no question of them having been there. (And the fact that so many characters in the show are cops puts us literally and figuratively at ground zero.) Second off, they are strong and they can glide, but they have no way of magically lifting building high stacks of rubble, or zeroing in on survivors under those stacks. They cannot teleport, or put trapped survivors in stasis until they can be reached. In short, they are little more than a few extra sets of extremely strong hands. Still, for a fictional story to save one more life than we have so desperately managed to save strikes me as somewhat offensive. With the heartache and heroism we have seen in the past few days, it is so hard to find the balance between doing disservice to a difficult issue by ignoring it, and doing disservice to that same issue by trivializing it. Not that it shouldn't be tried, In between the extremes is a major service art plays to humanity.
Personally the whole incident has been as bizarre as it is horrendous. Sometime in the middle of Rosh HaShanna I found myself praying I would turn the television after the holiday to hear they found even just one more survivor. I am sure many were doing the same thing, but I was praying that for the rescue workers, so that they would have something to help them go on. At the same time I still hadn't, haven't completely registered the event. The numbers are too big to compute. And yet, I saw the second tower fall from Christopher street, the closest the subway got to work, and knew I had to continue walking south to work to get to my non-telephone based e-mail to be sure I could contact the outside world and get word out I was fine and find out about all my friends who worked even further downtown than I, (not to mention getting word to cousins in Israel who are used to the calls going the other way). I was able to hear that all my friends got out unharmed by noon and began the long walk home. All along the way people had set up radios and televisions for everyone to huddle around and sort out what exactly had happened. I have always maintained New Yorkers are far more friendly and caring than we will admit, but now, it is obvious. By the time we reached the 12th street the people lined up to give blood filled avenues by Saint Vincent hospital. They had so many people asking to volunteer that we were told
to try again in several hours. My friend had chosen a bad day not to wear sensible shoes, and we were stopping into shoe stores all the way north to find her a pair of Keds without luck.
Of course, once I got back to my apartment, and later at friends, we watched amazing amounts of news. With exception of sabbeth and the holiday, I don't think I've gone more than 5 hours without checking it in one way or another. In the days before we were allowed to go back to work we switched off between the news and silly things. I saw The Princess Diaries, my boss admitted to a slightly more
serious movie, but not much more. Thursday the wind shifted and we could smell the smoke. The wind still mainly blows away from us, but every once in a while it turns north again and it smells as if the city decided to put all its ovens on self clean mode. But for the most part the weather had been bizarrely clear and lovely.
Since then we have heard stories of heroism and humanity. Instead of panic and everyman for himself, people were orderly as they made their long way down. Strangers helped, even carried, each other down the stairs. Hundreds of firemen, police and other rescue workers ran back in and up and most probably died in the collapse. Thousands are dead, but thousands were saved by human kindness at the most basic and heroic level. I have never been more proud to be a New Yorker. [And that isn't even dealing with all the people that flocked to NY to help, nor the war I feel we must fight and pray we are mature enough to handle as we have not been in the past.] Everyone here knows at least someone who lost someone. And you can't help but look out windows that used to see the towers, or just down the street, and see a surreal open skyline still full of smoke.
I can't see how any story set in this city at this time can ignore the events, yet I am still too close to know if it is possible to do it justice. I am a (supposed) adult who has had more exposure to terrorism
than most New Yorkers and have an ability 'get used' to new status quos quicker than many. You have repeatedly said that Gargoyles would remain child friendly, even if the topics became more mature. I cannot help but think that children are in even more need than adults to make sense of these events and how it changes us.
thanks for the answers, (and the chance to vent).
Laura
Laura,
I'm tempted not to respond at all. I'm not sure what I could say that would be even half as eloquent as what you just wrote. I know months have passed since you wrote those words, but today they have effected me deeply.
To answer your question... I just don't know. The plan to continue the series where we left off and speed through the years (keeping hard-core fans posted via the internet) made a ton of sense to me before September 11th. Now, of course, everything's changed. It's easy enough to simply NOT show the twin towers. If we're careful it just means we're not pointing the camera that way. And it could be before or after 9/11. But leaving it at that is something of a cop-out.
You've really hit the nail square on the head. How would I, would anyone really, deal with this topic respectfully in a fictional universe? On one level, I'd love to include it -- if for no other reason than to work out some of my own demons about that days events. As you said, the Gargoyles wouldn't even learn about it until sunset.
Then what? I don't think I'd have any of our regulars die in those events. It would seem to cheapen the sacrifices made by real flesh and blood people. Obviously, after the fact, I don't see how I could avoid having Elisa and the Gargs lend a hand. They wouldn't save anyone. How could I allow it? But just try to help.
But even that seems less than respectful. From my vantage in California, it's hard to see a way clear. Ultimately, this probably would never be a decision that would be left in my hands. But if it was, I'd have to take on a consultant (or two or ten). Representatives of all aspects of the event. People who were involved.
That's the best I can come up with now? It's all too hypothetical and painful to figure out in more detail.
But in the simplest terms if what you're asking me is whether or not the towers came down on 9-11-01 in the Gargoyle Universe, then the answer is yes.
I asked this before
Lady Leto writes...
Dear Greg.....
This is a respond to one of your ramblings. You asked:
'Is there anyone out there for whom City of Stone was your first Gargoyle experience? If so, I'd love to hear from you. Did you have a clue as to what was going on?'
Well I was getting my Dad to watch it with me for the first time. And throughout the whole thing he was asking me many question, most of them pointless like do all Gargoyles have tails? And kept on me about names. (Hudson right, nothing is real to humans till they have names.) So yes even with the flashbacks, "Previously" segment, and a hard core garg fan, he was very confused. I think next time I try to get him into Gargoyles I'll start at the beginning.
Also wanted say that it is really cool how you answer all these question. (I have been to the Archives.) It must take alot of time! And you even put up with the not so great questions! I just wanted to say thanks!
Greg responds...
You're welcome. Too bad about your dad. I was afraid of that. Did it at least intrigue him enough to make him want to see more? Or did the confusion just alienate him from the series?
I finally got my dad into the series! I picked an episode by random, it was Revelations. And he liked it! He doesn't like cartoons at all. We watch an episode each week. His favorite character is Hudson, and episode is 'The Mirror' (he thought Puck was really funny!). Well anyway, maybe I can talk him into going with me to the Gathering in 2003 (since we live in Tampa).
I'd love to see you both there.
For those of you who don't know, the site for G2003 has been chosen: NEW YORK CITY, site of the first two Gatherings ('97 & '98) and, obviously, the setting for the series.
But, hey, Lady Leto, how about grabbing your dad and heading for Gathering 2002 in Williamsburg, VA. It's a lot closer to you both physically and temporally.
Happy Rosh Hashanah Greg. Though it may be closeto Channukah when you read this.
It's past Purim. Pushing Passover. (Pretty pathetic, huh?)
But thanks!
I'm glad to see your OK greg. I don't know if you still live in New York(since all of your stories are based there), so I feared for your saftey when I heard about the attack. I'm quite relived now. My sympaties to you and all the american people.
Aside from the occasional trip, I haven't lived in NYC since 1987. I'm an Angelino, born and raised and now returned.
I don't pretend to know what it felt like to live in Manhattan on 9/11, but it was pretty awful being a whole continent away, so I can just imagine.
Thanks for your concern though.
Being a Canadian I am horrified of the thousands of our American cousins murdered in New York today, I hope that the terrorists are caught soon and be made to pay for their hidious crime. I just want to let all Americans who read this that Canada mourns with America and has always considered America as a very close friend and wishes America well.(including you too Greg)
Thanks. It's gonna be a little weird dealing with questions and comments about 9/11 here and now on Valentine's Day.
I may have very little to say.
Hey Greg,
I'd figure since I just got a call back from Jeff Bennett that I'd better check on you. If you are ok could you tell me how Bill(Broadway) and Thom(Lexington) are doing? I'm really conserned about how ya'll are doing and now more than ever. I know that sometimes the actors go to New York to work and Jeff got a hold of my answering machine, so he didn't elaberate(hope I spelled that right). Well, how have you been let's say between November of 1999 to present day? Since I met you, Jeff, Bill and Thom in November of '99 through Make A Wish.
Well I got homework write ya later, Bye.
Hi Cat,
I've been fine, basically. It's sweet of you to be concerned. How are you?
Thom is fine. Playing a lot of tennis. Doing a ton of radio commercials, at minimum.
I haven't talked to Bill or Jeff since (either) the 2001 L.A. Gathering or when I used each of them on the now defunct Team Atlantis show -- all this past summer. But I'm sure they're doing well, or I'd have heard.
Keep in touch. (Any chance we'll see you at G2002 in Virginia this summer?)
Greg
Greg, I'm glad to hear that you're okay. I hope your family is, too.
Well, I just dropped by to let you know of something. Curiosity got the best of me yesterday so I searched in the episode Future Tense for the World Trade Center that was destroyed yesterday, and I couldn't find it. You could usually see it from the Statue of Liberty, right? Well, they weren't there. Scary, huh?
...
I read through about the reasons why Gargoyles was booted out. And I certainly understand them 100%. No company is going to keep making something that isn't giving them a good profit, it's bad for buisness. I've seen a lot of Disney animated shows. At least one episode from everyone since the Disney Afternoon. Disney Afternoon I thought was great. Ducktales, Talespin, Rescue Rangers, even Marsupilami (spelling might be wrong, but can ya blame me?). Gargoyles is by far my favorite show. Now I am not a big fan of anime. I do like some, for instance, Princess Mononoke is just about my favorite movie. The animation was the best I've seen since Gargoyles and the story was excellent. Also well cast for the American dubbed version. Mononoke was the number one movie of all time in Japan, till Titanic knocked it down a spot. Never did I hear of such a thing. An animated movie is number one in a country and knocked all the classics down. Though I think it deserved that spot...even more so then Titanic. Which got me thinking about the difference between the two cultures. Americans seem to think animation is intended for kids. There certainly have been break throughs, but majority of those breakthroughs, were made in Japan. The Japanese seemed to tap into something in animation that Americans have failed to. It's not the form of the movie it is the story. I also think Japanese have more pride in the animated movies, seeing them more as artwork then as kiddie shows which is why they can work so hard at it AND the PUBLIC appreciates it. You and the rest of the Gargoyle crew worked so hard and made the best animated tv show in my mind. I just guess the American public wasn't ready for it. They aren't to that mature point to say animation isn't just kiddie flicks and cute fuzzy animals. They can have deep feelings and emotions as much as any actor. You have at least 2 people behind each character. The animator and the voice. I know there are many other animators of the characters, but I think you know what I mean. I am sorry that the majority ruled this time and they didn't appreciate it or bother to give it a chance or whatever. I still have that hope it will be back in one form or another. Maybe one day it will be it's time to be the next Batman or Superman. They started out slowly too and look at them now. One never knows.
After all that, was wondering, "Do you know how well Gargoyles did in Japan?"
I'm not sure Gargoyles EVER aired in Japan. Does anyone know different?
Siren, thanks for the kind words. I'd quibble with some of it. You make it sound like the public never embraced Gargoyles, and that's not quite true. We were still a solid hit. We simply were not a home run.
Also, I don't believe that either Superman or Batman 'started out slowly'. They were both homeruns nearly from the moment they hit the stands. Revelations.
matt writes...
is the Labyrinth that the clones and mutates live in really a labyrinth? it didn't seem too much like a maze whenever we would see it in the series, and lots of characters went down there and didn't get lost or anything.
Greg responds...
It's mostly just a name. But there are tons of corridors, tunnels, etc. Some of them hidden, like the one where Fang found the old Cyberbiotics weapons cache. So you could get lost and you could call it a maze.
And honestly, matt, doesn't this question seem a bit nit-picky?
recorded on 09-11-01
___________________________________
ok, i'll admit that sometimes i DO nitpick at things, but generally my questions do have a point. since you asked i'll tell you that i asked this cuz i really did want to know if it was an actual labyrinth or just a name. and now knowing that its just a name mostly doesn't bother me or anything. i just like to know the little details alot of times. its not nit-picking, its just being complete and precise, i guess.
Ehh, you may have caught me in a bad mood. There was a point where everyone seemed to be submitting questions with the intent of making me look foolish in some way. My apologies.
As for the Labyrinth, we largely stuck to two or three main areas. But the implication was that between the old subway tunnels and the cyberbiotics build-outs, that the place was fairly maze-like. You looked at my answer and concluded it was just a name. But --and now I'm being nit-picky -- that wasn't my answer. It was mostly just a name. But it was accurate as well.
Matt asked re: "Leader of the Pack":
2. what does "snakes to a nest" mean anyway? from what i know of snakes, they all abandon their eggs completly or stay with their eggs until they hatch.
Greg responded:
2. Ask the writer. I was just the producer.
Shan contributes:
When I hear this phrase, "like snakes to a nest," it makes me think of snakes rushing to the nests of *other animals* to eat their eggs. There are some types of snakes that prefer only the eggs of other animals -- at least according to my Microsoft Encarta (R).
This sounds like a Southern (United States) phrase, but I'm not sure. My mother's from south-eastern Alabama, and I know they have do have some unusual turns of phrase in that part of the country.
The problem with this interpretation is that it gets muddled by the context, since Lex is theorizing that the Pack will return to familiar haunts. Which leads to the way Matt read Lex's comment (i.e. about snakes' own nests), which might have been the opposite of the writer's intentions. Since the Pack members can definitely be equated with "snakes" I can see how one would get Matt's reading.
Steve Perry's the writer, Michael Reaves Story Edited this episode. I confess I don't know too much on the non-professional background of either person, so I've got no clue where either person would have picked up that phrase.
Just thought I'd share my thoughts. Doesn't change the story any, but possibly of interest...
Yeah. I took it the way Matt did, being ignorant of the behavior of snakes. Maybe snakes behaved differently in medieval Scotland?
Yeah, that's the ticket.
HEY, I'm back...and I came back with some milk to wash that cookie down. Santa came early to my house, but I wrestled the cookies away from him to give to you, he's getting big anyway. Mrs. Clause agrees with me. But afterwards Santa and I made up and had a cookie snack together. He told me that you've been a good little boy, Greg, and he's going to give you a big present in December for such great work you've been doing on this web site. He thinks that since you take time out of your valuable schedule to talk to complete strangers is a very noble idea. He's told me to tell you that. He sends his best and can't wait until December rolls around. HO HO HO.
Which Santa?
wuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz up, Greg! Just writting to tell ya that this site is da bomb! You have your hands full with a lot of questions here, some quite philosophical, if I'm reading them right. You're DA MAN!!!!! Keep of the great work and maybe sometime I'll give you a cookie for such great work. SEE Ya!!
Uh... bye. Thanks.
Someone brought up the distinctive coloration of Thailog again, and I thought I'd throw in my two cents. You both agree, basically, that the idea to give Thailog a unique 'color scheme' was a good one, because it nulled the possibility of Thailog and Goliath being mistaken for each other, a very bad cliche. If you'd kept Thailog looking identical and just NOT done that cliche, we the viewers would simply be waiting for it, so the coloration difference was the best way to actively put it to rest.
You ask what the rest of us think about the general direction you and the other writers took Thailog. I'd just like to say that IMHO you guys played him BRILLIANTLY. And I mean it. So many shows bring in clones seemingly just to screw with the hero's identity. But in GARGOYLES Thailog plays such a more profound role. He is Goliath, but with a different soul. And that is what makes him disturbing. Also, in most shows, the clone remains the instrument of his creator, until perhaps he eventually dies, either slain or martyred. But in GARGOYLES Thailog breaks free of his creators in his very first appearence. Right off the bat, Thailog makes it clear that he is his own character, and that although his origin is as a clone, that isn't the extent of his profile. He is something never seen before in science fiction: a clone who so well establishes himself that the description "clone of Goliath" just sounds ignorant and pitiful.
Wow. Thanks. I'm very glad it (all of it) worked for you.
I was just watching Light House on the Sea of Time, and it sparked a memory. I couldn't read/write until I was fifteen years old; I was completely illiterate. My parents had taken me out of public school and home schooled me for a long time because of this, they had tried several different programs and nothing seemed to work. That was the year I saw Light House on the Sea of Time for the first time, and it really inspired me to want to read. I started a new read program that year, and I finally learned how to read. Now I can't imagine my life with out being able to read, I write short stories for fun, I joined the school newspaper, I LOVE reading. So. Thanks for helping me with that first step.
Wow!
That may be the coolest thing I've ever heard with regards to the series. It's a cliche, but we always said that if we could help one person to learn to read...
Thanks for telling me that.
Like you, I'm not a biologist, but this thing about a garg's wings bug me. You said that there are bones inside the wings, though you were not sure. But if there are some, then they can't be like the ones inside the arms or legs. Just watch one episode and you should notice what I mean. To fold them over the shoulders with only two large bones, they must be made of rubber, but that seems pretty unlikely. I would say that either instead of two large bones there are many vertebras, or instead of bones something else like cartilage.
I hope you understand what I mean.
What do your thoughts about it?
I have bones in my arm and it still bends at the elbow.
I already said this in the comment room, but you may not have read it. I just wanted to say sorry about how I put a bit too much attitude into some of my past questions (though at the time it felt more like righteous outrage to the way you answered questions). You were quite right in how you aren't obliged to answer for anything for us. This is your domain and your time you are putting out, and sometimes I and other people take that for granted. So in the future I will try to be more respectful.
That having been said, the reason I talked like that was I didn't see why making a small mistake in the question, was any reason not to answer. I didn't (and still don't) understand what you want when you avoid a question. You could want to not answer it at that moment, or it could just be a secret you don't want to get out (which I am quite willing to respect). So:
1) How can I tell which smart-ass response means what? As in When does it mean that you don't want to answer ever, you don't feel like answering now or you just don't want to answer because my spelling is getting aggravating.
2) Would you please be so kind as to grant me the knowledge of why Goliath, Angela and Gabriel weren't burned horribly when they fell into that water mixed with hot magma? By now I do have my own theory about this, but I would like to hear your answer.
And as for my spelling, since both you and Todd Jenson have told me how hard it is for you and him to read what I have to say, I have been making quite a fair effort to keep it clean (and the response as been fairly good in the CR). It seems people can change someone for the better, thanks for the incentive.
BTW, I was just slightly amused when I looked up "Pendantic" (which was what you called on of my questions) in the dictionary and couldn't find it. It was only when I asked my mom, that I found out it is spelled "Pedantic". But still, It's a cool word and thanks for teaching it to me.
Many thanks.
The Lord of the Sloths.
1. Honestly, you probably can't in a vacuum. If you hang here long enough, you may get a better sense of my rhythms, I suppose. But I still maintain that I don't have to explain myself. I just have to keep it fun for (a) me and (b) enough of you guys to make doing this worthwhile. I think the smart-ass stuff is part of the fun. Certainly for (a). And hopefully for a large enough percentage of (b).
2. I'd have to review the scene in question. It's been awhile.
Your spelling is much improved and it is much appreciated. I don't myself claim to be a brilliant speller, and, hey, typos happen. I know how to spell pedantic, so that one was a typo. All I asked is that you make a bit more of an effort. You have. I'm grateful.
Greg said:
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Shan responds:
You're right on both counts. I do remember having fallen asleep and just woken up in time to see the "Double Jeapordy" episode. Probably thought I remembered more than I really did, both about what I had just seen and Angela's situation. Lousy excuse though. I really should have researched better before asking a question of such an involved level (re: attempting to compare Thailog and Angela).
No biggie. Glad you're interested.
In the episode, "Future Tense," didn't it ever--disturb you looking back how Demona and Brooklyn were a couple? I mean, I see Goliath as a father to Brooklyn(even though G's only 10 garg years older). It wouldn't be right for a son to date his father's former wife/girlfriend. It would be downright disgusting. Yick! If my mother was single, I could never, EVER go out with a guy that has dated my her--even if he was around my age. Would you? And to make the B/D relationship concept/idea worse, Demona had been with THAILOG before she'd been with Brooklyn. Talk about hand-me-downs. Wow, that would be quite a marketing idea. I could just see it now: "Come on down and get the all-new 'Hand-Me-Down Demona' action figure! As a bonus you get to choose between Goliath, Thailog, or Brooklyn as her perspective "partner!" Heh heh! Demona would have a different outfit for which ever pairing you choose. Heh! Anyway, I'm just glad the whole thing was a dream-sequence scheme created by Puck and not something that would actually happen in "your" Gargoyle Universe.
Well, first off it was intentionally done for shock value to freak Goliath (and our audience) out.
But to be fair, I don't see Goliath as a father figure to Brooklyn. I see him as an older brother.
hey greig,
I wouldn't know were this would go but I think it's more of a one on one question i guess. I've been alot of gargoyle myths and legends lately and rumors about gargoyles actually living on earth. I was wondering if you actually believed the legends, myths, and rumors? That there might have been gargoyles here thousands of years ago?
Where have you heard these rumors?
Hey,
I've asked a few questions now (kinda had to warm myself up) so I thought I might give a little background, especially considering that the ability to post is back.
My first introduction to Gargoyles was from a number of ads in Marvel comic books back in '94. Seeing as I live in Australia, it took us a while to get the series, but when we did, I managed to watch it every Saturday morning (which is quite a feat for me, considering I'm not a morning person, and never have been).
At the end of the first season, I never saw Gargoyles on Saturday morning television again. Not sure if it was because whatever channel it was on stopped broadcasting it, or because I stopped getting up early to watch cartoons. In any case, all I had was a vague memory of the show, and that I liked it at the time.
Flash forward to about a year or so ago, and Gargoyles is on the Disney Channel on cable, seven nights a week. I'd managed to learn a bit about it from the internet, and I gave it another shot. I was addicted. High production values, strong characters and imaginative story-lines. What really sucked me in was "City of Stone". I found it amazing that "Macbeth" had been used not only as source material, but that the character himself was a recurring one in what was otherwise a kid's cartoon.
So I'd really like to thank you for creating such an inspirational and imaginitive show, and say how cool it is that you afford the fans this oppurtunity to pick your brains, as it were.
I might have lost out on the show when I was a kid, but I've gotten it back in spades as...well...legally I qualify as an "adult", but the term is debatable ; )
In any case, thank you.
~A fan
You're welcome. And thank you.
Monday:
It's all over! NOOOOOOOOO! I have to say, the past four days were probably
the highlight of my entire summer. Never have I had so much fun with people I
barely knew. I made some great friends in Greg X, Revel, Mara, Aaron, Dreamie,
and Winterwolf, and met a whole bunch of people, and even (according to Jannie)
picked up a fan club.
I have only ONE complaint about the ENTIRE gathering! Yes, just one. And its
something that can easily be fixed and would cost NOTHING to fix! The name
tags! Most of us meet over the internet, and few have any idea what the other
people look like. The name tags should have our Internet handle/callsign/nickname
in LARGE letters at the TOP of the badge, with the real name in smaller letters
underneath, with the picture/artwork taking up the bottom. In other words, reverse the ratio of name space to art space on
the badge. I should be able to see someone's nickname on their badge from more than 2 feet away. It was a little awkward
feeling like I was staring at everyone's chest to see their name. "I'm reading your badge, really!"
Gathering staff? What do you guys think about that?
I got to gathering late today, as I really didn't care much about the lectures that were happening. I picked up the artwork I
bid on and watched the closing ceremonies, which was basically a brief thank-you by Greg Weisman.
After that six of us (me, aaron, mara, dreamie, winter, and warpy) piled into Wolf's rented convertible and went for lunch
at a chinese restaurant my family likes. Everyone was happy, which is good because i'd have been really embarassed if
they relied on me to be their guide and disappointed them. After lunch we drove back to the con hotel and dropped off
Warpy so he could catch a shuttle. Then we left again to find a movie theater...the first one wasn't playing the movie we
wanted to see, so we headed to my house and hung out for a while until about 7, when Evolution was playing at a nearby
theater.
During the interim at my house, Aaron and crew (esp. aaron) became very buddy-buddy with my little bro. The six of us
(including my little bro) were talking up a storm in the kitchen. How we managed to keep it at his level is amazing to me,
considering the collection of gutterminds present. He'll start posting in here soon, as soon as I set up his new machine.
He's very excited. Now, keep in mind, he's 13, so try to stay PG-13 with him 8-). When he asks what yaoi is, don't tell
him 8-).
Seeing as I was a total 5th wheel (literally, as I was with 2 couples), I selected a theater with massive love-seat style
stadium seating for my friends. The armrests move back, big comfy chairs, you get the idea. After the movie, I insisted
that they drop me off and head back to the con hotel before I got violently ill. Being a confirmed bachelor for life definitely
has its advantages, but there's always that yucky feeling I get when I see sappiness among couples.
So that pretty much concluded my gathering experience. It was a blast, and as of today I'm actually considering GOING to
Virgina, if I can pull it off (doubtful, but who knows!?).
To Revel, Mara, Aaron, Dreamie, Winterwolf, Jannie, and GXB: You guys made my gathering infinitely valuable, and its
an experience I'll treasure forever. If any of you are in my neck of the woods (although I'd not call either of the concrete
jungles I inhabit "the woods"), look me up: you've got a place to stay. ::fake sobs:: I love you guys ;-). Oh, and I'd really
like at least one of you guys to post your view of events today, as I'd like to see it from the tourists point of view. 8-)
Sadly, the people I went to the movie with know where I live and they've seen where I sleep (good luck finding your way
back, though. Buwahahaha!). Now I'll have to kill them. ;-)
The pictures, greg, are posted at www.kicktothenuts.com/gathering
Thanks, Greg.
Geez, nice name for your website, man.
Seriously, though, I'm glad you had a good time. That's the point, eh?
Sunday:
So much went on today. There was a big Q&A with some of the voice talent,
including Goliath, Brooklyn/Owen/Magus, Lex, Obsidiana, and Hyena (i'm using
character names instead of real names b/c quite frankly I don't care and most
people won't recognize the names). There was an auction of garg stuff, one cell
went for $420, and some artists bible went for $300. I was part of a pool on a
Carl Johnson Garg Music CD that went for $200.
Anyone interested in borrowing money: talk to Aaron. I swear, that guy has more
money than god. I watched him outbid people just for fun.
A bunch of original artwork was displayed, I took pictures and they will be
available for download as soon as I get them off my camera and onto the internet.
Saved $53 by walking down the road to Subway instead of staying for the Banquet. I'm told all I missed was Crispin (sp?)
kissing Thom Adcox.
The costume contest was...interesting. My personal favorite was Aaron and Shinigami, who dressed up as Fox and David,
RESPECTIVELY. They won the Gorebash cross-dressing award. Best couple award went to Thom and Crispin. Dreamie
and Winterwolf did this cute commando thing where they hijacked Thom and demanded his boxers, leading Thom to drop
his pants in the middle of the dance floor. Thom dropped trou again while dancing later. Greg Weissman made numerous
comments about "any excuse to take your pants off, huh Thom!?"
I didn't get anything signed because, quite frankly, the only stuff that goes up in value when signed is sports memorabilia. I
mean, who outside the fandom knows who Greg Weissman is?!
I got some great pictures of CR members and other stuff, also to be posted soon.
If people are getting stuff signed to increase the object's MONETARY value than I'd have to agree they're nuts.
But I've had a few things signed in my day by people I admire. And it certainly increased the objects value TO ME.
Saturday:
Another great day at the Gathering.
Lets see, what'd I do today. Well I went to a bunch of different seminars about
writing, storyboarding, etc. Saw the radio play, which was SOOOO funny. Greg
revealed that the second episode after "The Journey" was to be a 22-minute porn
scene between Goliath and Elisa. Spent some time watching "Best of Gargoyles",
and a bunch of time in the art room hanging out with other TGS CR members.
A special apology to Jannie and Denis, who I left out of my list of people I met
yesterday (aka the list of people I strongly suspect exist).
Oh, and I've confirmed the existence of Todd Jensen. Although he doesn't APPEAR to be a cat, his conversational skills
make me wonder if he's a cat in a human costume.
Spent a large chunk of the day in just blabbing with Warpy, Aaron, Mara, Lynati, Dreamie, and Winterwolf (who, in case
you haven't figured out, is Dreamie's other half - I think), Revel, and GXB. Its a lot of fun hanging out with CR people, as
we all know a bit about each other's history and personalities, its not at all like meeting completely new people.
I'm finding out that I've pissed off a lot of people unintentionally. I mean, it probably seemed provoking, but since I don't
remember doing it, I obviously wasn't being malicious. I remember that kind of stuff. So that said, an apology to Jennifer
Anderson (sp?). Its quite interesting being introduced to someone and having them say "can I kick your ass now?"
Don't worry too much. Jen says that to a lot of people.
::DUCKS QUICKLY::
:D
I see you were looking for gathering essays. Since Aaron posted his, I thought I'd follow suit. These were posted in the TGS CR.
Friday:
Greg X and Revel say: NEENEER NEENEER NEEEEEENER! WE'RE AT
GATHERING AND YOU'RE NOT!!!
Everyone else says: Does anyone have a computer?
Gathering rocks. Loving every minute of it. The following people are now on my
list of those I STRONGLY suspect exist: Winterwolf, Dreamie, Dreamie's
Boyfriend (much to everyone's chagrin, though I discovered today that I could
care less), Revel, Greg X, Lynati, Warpmind, Christine, Tim, Becca, Lexy, Greg
Weisman, Thom Adcox, Coyote, Ravyn, Daniel Johnson, Aaron, Mara,
Guandalug, Patrick Toman, Kathy, CrzyDemona
Cute chicks: Okay, I'm an california boy, so you can imagine my standards are pretty high/picky. So you can imagine I
don't think there are any "Perfect 10's" at the Gathering. As it is, there are a few cuties. They are: Sorow, Dreamie, Ylla
(sp?). Just so you guys who aren't there know that I'm looking. Pictures to be posted soon.
The following people MAY exist: SJ, Robby, Gside, DPH. I suspect that they aren't at Gathering because they really are
someone else who's already there (robby-aaron, sj-me, etc).
Its really cool meeting all these people in real life, some of them are even cool in real life. But I have to say, I've been from
one end of California to the other. I've been to Santa Monica, West LA, and Berkeley. I've seen a lot of weird stuff. But
I've never seen a freak show quite like the Gathering crew, and I'm a weekly attendee of the rocky horror picture show.
That says a lot.
Greg Weisman showed us a sketch for his "bad guys" series, which was pretty funny, and he also showed us preliminary
story arcs for New Olympians and Dark Ages. Too bad he never got to make any of this stuff. If I were king...
I went to a panel group that included Christine and Mara, and learned a few tips for improving my fic...it may see the
black of the fic archive yet.
Then we MiSTed the gargoyles eps "The Gathering", where I demonstrated to the 20 people in attendance that I do, in
fact, have quite the guttermind ("The Puck has played many roles, but never that of straight man" "Yes, puck, we know
you've never been a straight man!"). But MiSTing gargoyles episodes it more fun than I can shake a really big stick at.
Even though they are the bane of our fandom, I really would enjoy MiSTing the TGC episodes.
Better late than never...
Thanks!
Aren't Shan's well written questions just a delight to read?
They're okay.
The following is in response to a question you answered for me.
Greg wrote:
Claw was mute. Renard was confined to a wheelchair. I'm not tooting my own horn here, I just think that maybe you're overlooking characters because they fit so naturally into the series that you forgot they were disabled.
Shan responds:
I'm beyond exhausted at the moment, so other than Garrett from the show I worked on I can't think of anyone else who has have appeared in every other show (except Brutto if ROUGHNECKS continued). I think you may be right about characters at the supporting level -- the Robbins and Renards of the animated universe -- but most do seem to be one shots, sometimes even in storylines where their disability is "repaired" by the end of the episode (such as an injury-created blindness that surgery or something else corrects), which usually seems a cop-out. IMNSHO.
And while I do like Renard, particularly as Fox's father, he is older than most of the characters we're talking about and from what Puck shows with his images in "Gathering Part Two," wasn't always in a chair, was he? (Again, beyond exhaustion, I might be wrong) It's a combination of age and illness, or at least that's the impression I've had. But then again, Robbins was blinded in Viet Nam and he's even younger. Showing ability with disability at all ages and stages of life -- and that it isn't always congenital -- is a good thing.
I have no clue why this is such a personal springboard for me, but I'm not embarrassed about it. I can tell you it predates my seizure disorder (circa 1992). On that note, I know that seizures are usually used to comic effect in film and TV and living it isn't funny to me. I close my eyes and let it be though. I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't do. I just don't have to like it.
(Now jumping off soapbox...)
Greg also wrote:
I also would love to do a hearing impaired animated character with Marlee Matlin doing the voice. She used to come into Rockets and I once had such a big crush on her that I swore that if she came in one more time, I'd ask her to marry me. (She must have sensed that cause she never came back.)
Shan replies:
:) If you did the character as a lip-reader, it would probably work in limited animation. Sign language is a whole different ball of wax, though I do know I saw it done once as a kid (I want to say on DEFENDERS OF THE EARTH, but I am so tired right now). Christy Marx and I talked about this waaaay back when I first met her, though it's become public knowledge on the TRULY OUTRAGEOUS! JEM Mailing List over the years. Hasbro had Christy developing a JEM feature that never really went past treatment since the TRANSFORMERS and GI JOE movies did so poorly. They were going to have a deaf girl in that movie, which was integral to the plot. Later on, Christy had dinner with a woman who taught her there are many variants of sign language; ASA (American Sign Language) is just one of several so it might not be understood well in some markets that aren't familiar with ASA and thereby not translate internationally. Also the complexity of the hand gestures just might not come out right in limited animation. So she told me at that time she wasn't sure if it ultimately would have worked out it.
Just FYI...
Solving those problems would be tremendously complex -- but worthwhile for a worthwhile character.
Ian>Um... thank you, I think, for complementing my questions. (I was passing through to see what other questions had been posted as long as I was online and saw your comment).
Greg>I hope my questions better exemplify your preferences, but you and I both know I can be error prone on occasion. I can think of instances both where I was your student and not proofing myself well enough as an interviewer (the latter being the greater embarrassment) where that was the case.
(And I just had to go look up embarrassment. I always have to stop and think about the "r"s and "s"s...)
The fact that you are looking things up is good in and of itself.
By the way, it was nice to see you and Jen and Alan and Zach and Ana and Ambrosia at Keith David's performance. I hope you all had a great time. (And I'm sorry I didn't warn you about the expense. I didn't know and was caught off guard by the cost myself.)
One thing that I thought that I'd mention here today, now that the question queue has gotten started up again, is on Goliath's smashing the Praying Gargoyle and foiling Operation Clean Slate in "Hunter's Moon".
I think that it's obvious to us all that Goliath was taking a big risk there, since if Demona had smashed the vial after that, all the gargoyles would have died alongside all the humans. But I wonder how many of us have noticed something else, that foiling Demona's genocide scheme entirely (as indeed happened here) could be almost as fatal to the gargoyle race. After all, at this point, the existence of gargoyles has been revealed to the world, and the public wasn't too thrilled with that. At the time that Goliath was confronting Demona, St. Damien's Cathedral was surrounded by an angry crowd practically howling for the gargoyles' blood, which was even prepared to charge in vigilante-style if the police didn't do anything. And even afterwards, as we saw in "The Journey", the public attitude towards gargoyles remained hostile; people were eagerly joining the Quarrymen when Castaway set it up, Margot Yale was openly calling for the capture and incarceration of the entire species on television, etc. We know, of course, from your "Gargoyles 2198" announcement that eventually humans do learn to recognize gargoyles' right to exist, and that by 2198, the days of near-universal attempts on humanity's part to hunt down and kill gargoyles are over - but Goliath, obviously, couldn't have known that.
I don't know whether Goliath had time to realize when he smashed the Praying Gargoyle (he took action extremely quickly, after all) that he was thus potentially endangering his species twice over, and that by saving humanity he was potentially dooming his race to brutal massacres (and I'm sure that even if he did know it, he'd have felt that there are just certain things that you have to do that are more important than mere survival and that wiping out one race so that another can survive is wrong - not to mention that he also knew that not all humans were crazed anti-gargoyle zealots), but I still think that that action of his was probably one of the most courageous and altruistic deeds that he performed in the entire series. I just thought that I'd give my thoughts on that here.
I think his action was considerably less thought out... for me it's as Elisa say: "That's what he does. That's who he is." It was as purely a "Goliath" response to a crisis as any we've seen. Goliath isn't perfect, far from it. But the angel of his better nature is a pure and powerful thing.
Are you going to be able to make any kind of art gallery in the near future? I love your work and would be interested to be able to purchase picutres from the gargoyle and Max Steel series. My 3 year old son loves the show too, btw.
That's great. But I'm not an artist. Can't draw worth a darn. (I said darn because your son is only three.)
Mr. Weisman,
I'm sorry I did not acknowledge your response before now. I only realized that you had addressed my post on sentience a moment ago.
I did not really think that you condoned the obliteration of a family of polar bears (anthropomorphic or otherwise). I was raising the issue because I think I am observing a trend wherein people are only assigning value to a life based upon an inference of anthropomorphism. That is to say, some people are investing their ethical concern in something based upon how much it resembles a human being; and this is hardly an objective premise to begin with. Semblance to human beings, mental or otherwise, can not constitute a requirement for being worthy of consideration or protection. However I do believe that it is reasonable to assign values based upon certain criteria from within our own perspectives (it's the only thing we can assign values from) as long as we make a concerted effort to avoid an obviously centrist sentiment like using ourselves as a template for what is worth consideration.
If someone were to ask me what criteria I thought were appropriate, I would probably return to what has already been implied. Intelligence. Emotional intuition. Volition. And a whole host of perceptual characteristics. Those things from which emerge a picture of mental life. Perhaps an ability to suffer and to anticipate conditions which cause or alleviate suffering, and to desire to distance ones self from a cause of it. However, if we are going to determine the presence of those capacities with nothing but purely verifiable data, then we fall in league with the evolutionary psychologists foundation of mental within the biological. And the biological machinery necessary to mediate these abilities is certainly not the exclusive domain of Homo Sapiens. (I _do_ subscribe to the evolutionary psychologist foundation by the way. I like to have data I can verify beyond "it is true because it is so.")
For a lot of people though, these emergent mental properties are always considered as something transcendent of biology, immeasurable, even inviolate, because I have observed others react with hostility to the reduction of mental qualities to biology. On numerous occasions. Thinking that way leads to all kinds of misunderstandings, however. Another contributor to this board, Entity, had taken the position that humans and gorillas were intelligent but dogs were not. I found this extremely interesting because even outside the realm of biological architectures in the brain I could use as a foundation for taking the evolutionary psychologist position, it needs to be acknowledged that even within social psychology dogs are attributed a measurable intelligence. It's not extraordinary. My dog has an IQ of 12 or so for instance. And of course these kinds of figures are disputable, because it really requires the participation of the test subject past his simple presence to get accurate results. I would submit that the whole concept of IQ as it is accepted within the social sciences borders on being fraudulent anyway. The point is that the ascription of non-intelligence that was made about the dog was arbitrary. It was not informed by the physical _or_ social sciences. It was just an assumption. And that kind of casual valuization can be dangerous when it functions as the basis for how much respect we offer another. This is not a slight against this Entity. I'm just using this as an example to outline the stated purpose of my original post. If people are going to hold these positions they maintain, then they need to ask themselves why they have that particular belief. If they have this mental dialogue with themselves and they cannot answer that first question, then it is time to evaluate how much their beliefs represent reality.
____________________________________________________________________________
I'm probably as guilty as anyone of overusing, or rather overbilling the issue of "sentience". I think the concept has its uses. But it's probably used as a crutch too often.
____________________________________________________________________________
I would agree. I think of it as a crutch of language. Some people subscribe to an ideology that is a holdover from religious impulses. It maintains that the mantle of "human" is sacred and unapproachable. They need to define what the quality of "human" is that makes it thus, without any background knowledge of cognitive science so that it fits their sensibilities. They can adopt the hazily defined expression, "sentience", imported from popular culture, via star trek, to articulate their position. For some others, the mental capacities of non human animals may be very well understood. They may acknowledge capacities for reflection and emotion, but they still need a convenient means of distinguishing various abilities. So an imprecise language becomes common.
Agreed. And I'll also admit that your thinking on this subject is much more sophisiticated than mine has been.
I think a lot of how we are defining sentience does come down to the "Potential for Direct Communication", which is of course a fairly preposterous criteria.
On the other hand, if it is truly another hand, I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive with notions of religion. Dog heaven, man. You know?
And don't worry about not getting back to me sooner. As I'm sure you've noticed, there's something of a delay going on in this whole system. I have trouble keeping up with the posts here. So as long as you remind me of what we were talking about, we should be fine.
I just reviewed what I have written here. It's so formal it's almost offensive. I'm sorry. I don't think one can talk about issues like this without sounding (obtuse? Stuffy? Something like that.) And not a word about Gargoyles.
Let me leave the realm of animal intelligence's for a minute and consider the intelligence of some of the more fantastical characters in your story. The fae. When I think about this kind of (ethereal?) character, these are the kinds of associations that I make.
-The thought of angels moves faster than human thought. (I don't recall where that comes from)
-A four dimensional object or being will cast a three dimensional shadow. (That's an observation Buckminster Fuller made.)
-A being that cannot die will have no concept of death, and certainly will not attach values, positive or negative, to the ending of a life. (This is a condensed and bastardized summary of some of the speculation of extraterrestrial intelligence's that participants of the SETI program publicized.)
I hope some of the above makes sense. My thinking is this. That the content of fae thought/mentality may be fundamentally different from homo sapiens thinking. Not just an accelerated or enhanced analogue of human thought, but structurally different. Our mental world is the emergent condition of innumerable biological systems interacting with one another. I have no reason to conclude that the fae's intelligence emerges from anything reductionist in nature. It is a condition that exists without origin in biology (potentially). Everything that we think of as intelligence rests on an evolutionary foundation of connections to allow us to successfully distinguish between things we can eat and things that will eat us. It would be absurd to think that the fae (who I don't think were subject to natural selection through predation) would have an intelligence structured upon the same principles. Simple alternative concepts like "either or" may not have the same meaning to them. This could go far towards explaining why they are so damned irritating.
My second thought on the matter, in reference to the three dimensional shadow concept, is that the visual representation we get of the fae in the story may be a poor representation of the reality. I use the concept of a hypothetical four dimensional being to illustrate. A two dimensional being could be aware of my presence if I allowed it to, although it would be a simple matter to remove myself from it's perception with a minor movement. However it's awareness could not give it a complete representation of what I am. It could only understand me as a fragment that can be translated into something comprehensible within the context of it's world. I can easily attribute an extra dimensional quality to beings like Oberon and Puck who seem o appear and disappear at will. We might not be able to understand completely, what they are. Only that the portion of them that is represented in three dimensions resembles a group of tall, angular, oddly complexioned people in period costume.
My third observation of the fae, and in particular of Oberon who has demonstrated a dispassionate distance to killing his rivals in certain instances, is that he may have no concept of murder because he may have no concept of death. (Yes I know that he reacted to the iron bell in such a way that would indicate it was harmful to him. Even lethal.) However, even if he were to express a concept of death we would not be able to be certain that his concept was anything like our concept. Does death mean an end for him? If it does not, then the gravity we attach to it may be lost on him and the other fae.
I think my point is that while it would certainly not be appropriate to think of a creature like this in human terms, i'm not even certain you can extrapolate "human" from him. There could be creatures, so far removed from human experience that it would be impossible. Of course, the associations that I make with the fae are not going to be the same ones that you make. Your concept of them may fall within human experience. You have other creatures though. Your space spawn. They would certainly have been subject to mental dispositions grounded in a different biology. We're conditioned with the genetic remainders of our hunter gatherer ancestors. They would be conditioned with something else. I dont know what. Something spawny probably.
Spawny. I like that.
Play with these ideas:
1. I believe that Oberon's Children evolved from the Will-O-the-Wisp.
2. I believe that they can die, as completely or not as any human. But they can't die of old age, unless they stubbornly insist on maintaining a mortal form until it kills them. They are therefore, acutally, technically mortal themselves, but don't truly comprehend mortality (if that makes sense). So they like to pretend they are fully immortal, fully untouchable. (Well, that's a generalization, really. Individuals may vary.)
3. I don't necessarily believe that we have seen the true form of any of Oberon's Children. We have seen 'preferred forms', but not anything that isn't just as much of a guise as any other shape they've taken on.
4. When they transform into a mortal of whatever species -- as opposed to just taking on the glamour of a mortal -- they are bound by all the rules of that species, save ONE. They can transform back.
5. I don't find them as irritating as you seem to.
Anyway, play with those five notions and get back to me.
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It brings me to another distinction: the one between sentience and artificial intelligence. Coyote, for instance, can throw a zinger, but is he self-aware? I don't think he is. Xanatos hasn't achieved (or would wish to achieve) that much, has he?
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I don't know anything about computer technology past it's relationship to cognitive studies into artificial intelligence. There is a lot of dispute about the possibility of an actual computer intelligence. I'm not competent to say if the possibility is real but I would not discount it. I can see numerous avenues for foundations for intelligence besides the neurochemical variety. Incidentally, I once took a Turing test...and failed. I was delighted.
I don't know what a "Turing test" is. Sorry.
I believe that in the Gargoyles Universe that artificial intelligence is truly possible. I just don't think any Coyote robot we've seen has truly achieved it yet.
Matrix may be closer.
Many mythological scholars believe that in the early days of the myths, humanity was matriarchal, worshipping some sort of "Great Goddess"-figure, but as time went on, it underwent a shift to a more patriarchal culture, producing male gods such as Zeus who toppled the "Great Goddess" and replaced her. Did such theories (assuming that you're aware of them) influence your vision of Oberon overthrowing his mother Mab and replacing her?
Yes.
Greg:
I have a million questions, but I would prefer to leave them unaswered. However, I would like to thank you (and all those others involved) for creating such a magical series. Gargoyles is truly a work that raises that bar when it comes to storytelling in an animated series.
So, regardless of whatever happens in the future with Goliath and the gang, thank you for producing some of best storytelling this fan has seen in any medium.
Thank you for taking the time to tell me. And I SO RESPECT your desire not to have your questions answered. Good for you. (Although if that sentiment spreads I could be outta business. Sigh. Fat chance. KIDDING!!)
Ok, you know what I have yet to do? Praise you on GARGOYLES 2198. I mean, there is so much worthy of praise. Here are some things I found most impressive:
1) Nicholas Natsilane Maza and the Order of the Guardian that he is a part of. It gives both Natsilane and good old Tom a legacy.
2) The idea of the Space-Spawn being born "amidst the fury of an exploding star." It's such an original idea, and in science-fiction, originality is sometimes very hard to come by. Speaking of which, maybe there's a question in here: do you know what element the Spawn Spawn are based off of? (e.g. carbon-based)
3) To have the Space-Spawn take over the world right off the bat, and in such a swift, painless manner. As you state, there is "very little loss of life, unless freedom matters to you." This puts drama before bloodshed, pure Gargoyles.
4) The Illuminati's dark pact with the Space-Spawn. This actually brings up another question (and I hope this one hasn't already been asked, if so I apologize): is Alexander Fox Xanatos IV a member of the Illuminati at the time of his abduction?
2. I have some ideas, but I've done no research, and given how I'm taken to task on every LITTLE thing I say, I'd prefer not to embarrass myself at this time.
4. No way I'm telling you.
Lord Sloth wrote some words he/she? had learned from the show. you couldnt decifer one of them. Im not sure how to spell it, but it sounds like ESH-ih-lon (he's one of our lower ranking members, etc. at least I think thats where i remember it from)
someone may have said this already. i havent read the questions being submitted archive.
Echelon. Now just to be safe, I looked it up in the dictionary. Why am I the only one who did?
Not really a question, but you have my sympathy on Team Atlantis. Working in a corporation, I understand that nothing quite feels the same as having a project you've invested a hefty chunk of time into suddenly get displaced. Well, maybe being kicked in the guts by a mule or something comes close. :(
I wish people would make up their minds about projects before men and women started investing large amounts of time into making the project a reality. It is even worse in a creative process.
In systems design, it feels so insulting to get along the Systems Development Lifecycle to the point where you're working to fulfill agreed-upon specifications and suddenly the client does a 180 and tanks the entire project. I imagine it is even more frustrating in an artistic / creative setting where it is only natural to put large portions of yourself into a production.
So, to you and all those with whom you worked, my sympathies. I appreciate your efforts and I'm disappointed that we'll miss out on Team Atlantis.
Bona Fortuna
- Kai
Thanks.
Greg, I am so sorry to hear about Team Atlantis getting dropped before it even hit the air. This Demona and Fiona Cammore story did sound pretty interesting.
Hope you get another voice directing jod or somthing else soon.
Thanks. Me too.
Count me as another person who's sorry to hear that "Team Atlantis" won't be coming out after all. From what I had heard about it (especially at the Gathering), it had sounded good (and not just because Demona was going to guest star in it). Such a pity.
Yep. Put a lot of people out of work too.
This is more a comment than a question! I've been a Fan of Gargoyles for a long time, since it first aired on the Disney Afternoon! and after it stopped airing, I started looking in the internet, to see if the show would keep going, I mostly saw some fanfics, but it never was quite the same.
Although I was amazed on how many fans the show had, and more so that most the of the fans were adults.
now, when I rediscovered gargoyles on toon disney, and finding this site again, and actually asking questions, and joining the comment room.
I find myself so intrigued not only on how great the show is, but how many other people enjoy it and find so much entreteiment in it, and how wonderfull gargoyle fans are, they are very loyel and really care about Gargoyles.
So my question is, how does it make you feel, As one of the creators, that after the show has been cancelled for 5 years, so many people love and keep it alive in their hearts, through the internet and reunions such as the gathering?
GREAT!!!
I mean, duh. GREAT!!!!
It's very gratifying. The Gatherings themselves are tremendously wonderful for me. Feeds my ego enough to last me a whole year.
Mostly, I'm just glad that the show reached people and that they largely responded to it as we all hoped.
Where can *I* buy a copy of Cree Summer's CD?
Everyone eat Round Table pizza!
Oh! And sign up for G2002!
And write to Disney asking for Gargoyles DVD's! (Greg, you can tell Mr. Fukuto that I'll by Gargs on DVD, and I don't have a DVD player.)
I love Cree's CD. Have you tried a record store?
During the course of the series, New York was struck by a number of events of a decidedly "unusual" variety, and ones which obviously weren't completely covered up (even if the true cause of them wasn't known to its citizens). Gargoyle sightings were the obvious part, but also so were the "missing nights" in "City of Stone" and Oberon putting everyone to sleep in "The Gathering", for example. By the time that the gargoyles were revealed to the public in "Hunter's Moon", therefore, New York had experienced two years' worth of Fortean activity.
While the obvious main reason for the public panic over the gargoyles in "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" was simple fear over them, do you suppose that the cumulative aftereffects of the two years' worth of weirdness (especially from "City of Stone" and "The Gathering") could have been a factor as well? After all, in real life, unexplained ongoing problems can often lead to people looking for scapegoats, and persecuting minority groups thereby (as in the case of persecutions of the Jews getting more severe in 14th century Europe during the Black Death). Do you think that some of that could have been at work here?
YES!!!!!!
Weirdness can in fact have a cumulative -- not simply a momentary -- effect.
You idiot, do you actually think he'll answer everyone of those questions. If he actually gives straight forward and clear responses for half of these then I'm a monkey's uncle.
Wow. Anonymous. Looks like you've got a new moniker.
Ladies and gentlemen, "A Monkey's Uncle".
I love being unpredictable.
Hi Greg!!!
Gargoyles is such a great TV show. It's my favorite TV show. And it shows cartoons are not just for little kids. Anyways, I remember reading about your plans about Brooklyn's mate. I was just wondering, did you, or any or any other creators plan on what she was going to look like? Does she kind of have a "beak" like Brooklyn? It's ok if you don't want to answer, but I just wanted to know. But I am glad that Brooklyn would get a mate. I felt very sorry for him after Maggie rejected him when he was trying to help her and Anglea chose Broadway. I was just wondering if you guys planned what Katana was going to look like. Thanks for reading this. ^_^
Sincerely,
Audra
Not yet, no. I have a few vague ideas, but that's it.
Hi Greg! First time poster here. I want to thank you on writing such a great show!! I only started to watch it a little over a year ago. I've only seen about 70% of the episodes, because of it's late airtime and the fact that I have older siblings who what dibs on the tv. What I really want to ask you is how did you come up with this whole series? It's really incredible how it all ties in, considering its complicated plot. My teachers have always told me that I have a gift for story telling, but most of its all been fan fiction. I love to write, but the only reason I do fan fiction is because I can't seem to make up my own characters. So how did you come up with all these complex characters? Did you have to sit down for hours to think of characters, or did they just suddenly come to you one day? Anything you're willing to tell me will be greatly appreciated. I don't care if writers don't really make it on their first story, I know that (I'm only 17, after all). I just want to write share with some people something that I can truly call my own. Thank you! (Next time around, I actually will ask questions regarding the show)
=^..^= <---Meow!
Well, let's start by acknowledging that I wasn't working in a vaccuum. From day one I had a staff of people working with and for me on the show.
Special credit needs to go to Michael Reaves, Brynne Chandler, Gary Sperling, Cary Bates and Lydia Marano who were all huge participants in the process.
Lots of time was spent talking, batting ideas around. But honestly some things just came so easy and naturally that I still believe that the Gargoyles Universe is out there broadcasting history to me.
a couple weeks ago someone asked what gargoyles protected before the other races showed up and you said each other. but since we have the Mayan clan protecting a forest, the Loch Ness clan protecting prehistoric monsters, the London Clan protecting a shop in SOHO, and i'm sure there were other examples, what gargoyles protect has always been extremely varied and never limited to sentient beings.
1. it seems from clan to clan there is a wide range of what to protect. why is that?
2. every species, like the gargoyles, protect their own kind and eggs, etc., but why did gargoyles begin to extend that protection to more than themselves?
1. Reread your own preamble. Good. Now. Why do you think?
2. Because they care.
Since you and Entity recently (as of July 20th) had a brief exchange about Xanatos's characterization, I thought that I'd give a thought of my own about him.
One thing that has occurred to me is that there was an intriguing paradox about Xanatos in his "feud" with the gargoyles. One advantage that Xanatos had over the conventional "cartoon super-villain" was that he was a level-headed, practical man who wasn't interested in revenge or pointless vendettas. And this, on one level, made him potentially a more challenging adversary for the gargoyles. Because as a result, he wasn't likely to get so distracted in carrying out his personal score with the clan that he'd make foolish mistakes which they could take advantage of and thereby win, the way that more conventional "master-villains" in animated series do (and which, elsewhere in "Gargoyles", the Archmage himself fell prey to, when he kept on making strategic and tactical errors in "Avalon" - such as not waiting until dawn to attack or in magically tormenting Goliath when he could just as easily have simply zapped him into a pile of dust). It removed the leading source of "mistakes that antagonists make" which can save the day for the protagonists.
But, ironically enough, this very trait of Xanatos's also may have helped the gargoyles in a way. For, since Xanatos wasn't a revenge-crazed man, he wouldn't be likely to be constantly pursuing the gargoyles obssessively in "conventional cartoon super-villain" style, and indeed, he didn't. He went after them because he had specific plans about what to do with them (using them as his agents for such operations as stealing the disks from Cyberbiotics). But that motive didn't take too long to be discarded, as it became increasingly aware to Xanatos that he couldn't make use of the gargoyles in that way ever again; in fact, I recently noticed, upon examining his actions closer, that in Season Two, despite his continued clashes with the clan, he had stopped attempting to actually capture and dominate them (the one exception being his capture of Hudson in "The Price", and then there was a different reason for that - the need to use Hudson as a guinea pig for the Cauldron of Life). So he no longer had a serious reason for capturing them, and consequently, didn't see the need to make those efforts. The only possible reason left for going after the gargoyles was that of revenge, and that obviously didn't interest him. So he had no reason to pursue them (and indeed, seems to have even been aware, as the ending of "City of Stone" makes clear, that leaving them more or less at liberty could be much more advantageous to him anyway). He could afford to leave them alone.
So I find it an amusing paradox that the very factor which could have made Xanatos a serious threat to the gargoyles actually helped to make him less of a threat than he might have been. He wasn't obssessively pursuing them on the basis of a pointless grudge. He went after them only when he saw a genuine need to, and there was increasingly less reason for him to capture or destroy the whole clan as the series went on (and good reason, on the other hand, to let them be).
Sound analysis. I've said it before, I think as villains go, David and Demona are too fairly original characters. I'm proud of all my babies, so to speak, but I'm particularly proud of these two and how different they are from each other and yet how they both constantly presented us not merely with 'evil plot of the week' material but with challenging character work. They wrote themselves.
Well, I'm not Todd, but in response to the history of Excalibur, Geoffrey of Monmouth's "Caliburn" is thought by some to be derived from the Welsh "Caledfwlch" (Breton "Kaledvoulc'h"), or from the Irish "Caladbolg" or "Caladcholg." Caledfwlch appears in several Welsh Arthurian stories, especially "Culhwch ac Olwen." Caladbolg, "hard dinter," was the lightning sword of Fergus Mac Roth. Caladcholg was a similar sword owned by Fergus Mac Leti. Various people have argued at one time or another that the modern idea of Excalibur was taken from one of these sources.
Interesting.
Hi Greg,
Don't let the death of Team Atlantis get you down, true brilliance is never recognized in its own time.
Anyway, I was wondering about your personal opinion on something: pop Arthurian Legend. First there was the "Merlin" miniseries, now there's another one on TNT called "The Mists of Avalon." Both take the traditional story of King Arthur and try to present its elements of magic to contemporary TV audiences in the guise of religion. Instead of accepting magic as a part of the legend, which I guess TV execs think is too "silly" or maybe even "controversial," they turn the Arthur legend into a morality tale about the old verse the new, Paganism verse Christianity, imagination verse logic, etc... take your pick.
What's your take? Do you think this is a constructive and innovative approach to telling the story, or a distracting and childish one?
Well, I haven't seen Mists and have only seen pieces of Merlin. So I can't judge either series.
I think you tip your hand on your opinion, however.
In and of itself, the approach has some potential. It's about execution. And the ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Look at EXCALIBUR (the movie). It has elements of both approaches, and I think it's wonderful. (Just saw it again recently. It really holds up.)
A couple weeks ago, you posted a ramble in an interesting exchange of ideas with Punchinello, about the subject of "sentience" and how it's used in science fiction and fantasy, about whether it's a wall or not, etc, etc...
I thought to chime in, contributing with the concepts that Orson Scott Card introduces in "Speaker for the Dead" (an excellent book btw - I encourage everyone to read it). There he uses different words to differentiate between different kinds of 'alienness'... Let me quote:
"The Nordic language recognizes four orders of foreigness. The first is the otherlander, or 'utlanning', the stranger that we recognize as being a human of our world, but of another city or country. The second is the 'framling' [...]. This is the stranger that we recognize as human, but of another world. The third is the 'raman', the stranger that we recognize as human, but of another species. The fourth is the true alien, the 'varelse', which includes all the animals, for with them no conversation is possible. They live, but we cannot guess what purposes or causes make them act. They might be intelligent, they might be self-aware, but we cannot know it."
Obviously here the most important concepts are that of the 'raman' and of the 'varelse'. These can be useful, over and beyond the concept of 'sentience', because they refer to how much of an understanding can exist between different species - unlike 'non-sentient' for a species to be 'varelse' doesn't necessarily make it "inferior"... Only non-understandable.
On the other hand I find these concepts also intriguing because they *do* carry a moral judgment within them, even if it's a more subtle one. To recognize an alien as "raman" is to recognize him as basically human, to recognize that his fundamental motivations are the same as yours. It's the beginning of understanding and tolerance...
Now in the gargoyles universe, it's clear that both gargoyles and fae (and Nokkar's people also) are all "ramen": Other species which despite all their difference with our own, we can recognize as fundamentally 'human'. I'd also go on to say that this is what people like Jon Castaway refuse to see. By declaring that all gargoyles are monsters he doesn't necessarily refuse them their 'sentience' - he does refuse though to see that they are 'ramen'... and as such he can say things such as 'they are all evil', 'they must be destroyed', etc, etc...
And with that let me conclude with another quote from the book:
"Since we are not yet fully comfortable with the idea that people from the next village are as human as ourselves, it is presumptuous in the extreme to suppose we could ever look at sociable, tool-making creatures who arose from other evolutionary paths and see not beasts but brothers, not rivals but fellow pilgrim journeying to the shrine of intelligence.
Yet that is what I see or yearn to see. The difference between raman and varelse is not in the creature judged, but in the creature judging. When we declare an alien species to be raman, it does not mean that they have passed a threshold of moral maturity. It means that *we* have."
Sorry for the length of this ramble... :-)
Don't apologize. This subject is fascinating to me. Thank you.
Hi Greg!
In response to the Tootsie Pop commercial: I've seen it within the past year on TV, so.. it's still making its rounds on TV. And yes, I know the commercial, but.. I'm an early 80s baby (born in the early 80s). And that response fit with the question, very much so.
I'm running out of things to say.. whee.. ahem...
Oh! I found a quote or a poem or something about the "Hobgoblin of Little Minds," but I've forgotten where I put the paper that has it.. hmmm Maybe (hopefully) when I find it, I'll remember to type it up for you.. and see if that's what you're talking about.
Ok, general question that isn't really on Gargoyles or any of your other projects, but you might know.
What's the plural form of series? Is it series or seria? Or none of these? If it's not one of these, then what is it?
Thanks.
P.S. I can't wait for the next Contest to begin ;) Though I respect if you take a break, I just want to see how well I think I can do in them.. hehe... Umm.. yeah. Boy this covered alot of ground...
The quotation I'm thinking of is by Ralph Waldo Emerson.
As far as I know, it's one series. Many series.
Yeah, I'll start the next contest soon. Heck. Maybe tonight.
Some comments about the 2001 Gathering
I am a communications director at a university and can truly appreciate the vast amount of work that goes into event planning, so thanks to all the people who worked so hard on the Gathering 2001. I had posted a note in the Station Eight Comment Room a few weeks before the convention, expressing some slight trepidation about my two daughters and myself attending the event because I felt like a bit of an outsider, but we wanted to show our support for the series and encourage its revival. Several people, including you, Greg, responded in the Comment Room and were very welcoming and put my concerns to rest.
Or so it seemed.
Imagine my thoughts when, shortly after the Opening Ceremonies got underway, my now-infamous daughter says, quite out loud for just about everybody to hear: "Mommy, what's a con virgin?!" Yes, that was my 4-year-old, Caitlin. So after blushing a bit and trying to quietly explain the term to her, all I could think of was that maybe I'd have to carefully scout out any future sessions and try to pre-determine their age-appropriate level.
But I didn't have to worry. The weekend was really very nice. I'm not very good at remembering names, so unfortunately I don't know the names of the kind people we encountered. The women in the Art Room, for example, were so accommodating and welcoming when both of my daughters became inspired to draw Elisa (as a human and as a gargoyle) and Goliath pictures and submitted them to be displayed. The girls were so excited that we had to drop in and see them ... often.
The purchase of some Gargoyles coloring books and stamps and a Goliath mug, the art table that totally occupied my daughters' time while I sat in on your Mug-A-Guest session, hearing the writers discuss their work on the show, the voice actor panel, the Radio Play (thanks for the great choice of material), the Video Room - all were very interesting and fun for this con ... uh ... first-timer.
It has been interesting to read other people's diaries of the Gathering since, including one from Aaron. I didn't know it until I read his summary, but he mentioned watching my other daughter, 6-year-old Jessica, who, during the Radio Play, spent more time turned around watching Aaron's friend, Mara, while she sketched. Mara (whose name I didn't know at the time) was kind enough not to mind Jessica staring mesmerized at her work. Jessica really has an affinity for art, and Mara was very encouraging and gave Jessica one of the sketches she had done. It was beautiful.
I also had the pleasure of meeting your wife, briefly. We compared notes a bit, this being her second - I believe she said - Gathering that she had attended. She, too, assured me that although newcomers may feel awkward at first, her estimation is that it's a pretty nice group of people who make up the fandom. I concur.
While my girls and I had perhaps only modestly participated in the Gathering, it was fun and I hope it will do some good to perpetuate what I think is a really great program that deserves to be revived. So thanks for all your work and that of the con staff and the guests for all the time and energy invested. My daughters and I certainly appreciated it.
VF - Thanks for coming AND for bringing the girls.
Obviously, your daughter Caitlin provided one of the comic high-lights of the first night. I hope that didn't scare you too much.
But I wouldn't have encouraged you to come if I didn't think the con was 99% kid friendly. I think I'm a pretty good dad, and I know my wife is a great mom. And we wouldn't bring our kids (then ages 6 and 4 -- though Erin would be quick to point out that she is 7 now) if we didn't now KNOW that the con staff and fans treat them with respect and understanding.
I'm glad you all had a good time. And I'm VERY glad you took the time to post here and let me know.
You realize of course that giving us vague information on future gargoyle stories and the six spinoffs only hypes gargoyles beyond proportion making it impossible for you to satisfy your audience or at least those who have read about the master plan. I mean some people are expecting your to deliver something rivaling Babylon 5 which is nearly impossible and also TGS and the other fanfics are also setting your vision so if you do something which will make the fanfic universes appear off track like that owen being puck thing then you'll alienate a lot of hardcore fans. Example of this is Star Wars fans who grew up on the sequel novels and comics which is in someway fan fanfiction since they aren't exactly canon are demanding the appearances or cameos of novel or comic characters in the prequel movies or the legitimazation of the non canon novels and comics.
1.Do you understand what I am talking about?
2.Have I changed your mind about revealing more secrets of the gargoyles universe?
1. I understand exactly what you're talking about and it's a fear of mine. But what's the alternative? Seriously? What?
2. I'm moody. Sometimes I'm in the mood, sometimes I'm not. I've given away too much already to pretend that stopping now will chill the effect you're discussing.
On the other hand, almost EVERYONE knows that I have a policy to not read any FANFICTION including TGS, so I don't think anyone's expecting, say, Jericho (who I've heard of but never read about) to appear in Gargoyles should it come back. I'm not going to legitimize anyone's anything except my own, because I can't. The fans know this. So I'm not particularly worried about alienating them by not including their creations.
On the other hand, disappointing them is a very real possibility.
As for 'rivaling Babylon 5' -- I'm uninterested in competing. All I want is to have a chance to tell my stories. Some of the shock value, the surprise, is gone. But if you liked how I told the first 66 stories, than I think you'll like how I tell the rest. Even if you're more aware of what's coming.
geeez, you should make a new archive catagory called "Tootsie Roll Stuff" cuz of all these people talking about it. and for the record, i'm 19 and i remember it quite clearly despite my terrible meory, in fact, my brother and i recited the whole commercial te other day, including the best part when the Owl says two. he says, "twhoooo" its funny.
twhooo bad you had to answer "The World May Never Know" to my question, cuz first of all, i'm sure the clans with garg beast DO know, and second i don't understand why you won't tell us how many eggs a garg beast lays? i mean, is there some reason not to tell us? why are you holding this back? how many eggs does a female garg beast usually lay in a lifetime????!!!! geeeez, you frustrate me! thje archives wouldn't be so big if we didn't have to keep repeating questions cuz you avoid answering them!
i'm just kidding Greg. you don't have to reveal this, and honestly, if i were you i probably wouldn't have even revealed as much as you have about all the Gargoyles stuff. but i suppose it keeps interest and the fans pysched about the series. i'll say that since i stumbled upon this site my fanaticism in Gargoyles has gone up considerly. so good for you for revealing just the right amount of secrets, but not everything!
still wish you'd tell me though...
The other theme of tonight's questions besides spelling is
ATTITUDE!!!!
I know you were kidding. But ADMIT IT, you're only HALF-KIDDING, right?
Or three-quarters maybe.
What was the question?
"The world may never know.
(That smart-ass response was a reference to an old tootsie-pop commercial. Anyone old enough to remember it has my sympathy.) "
Its not that old. Im 21 and I get it.
Well, then that commercial must have been running forever. Because I remember it from when I was VERY young. Like before you were born young.
Hi Greg
First, let me congradulate you on your great speeches at Gathering opening and closing ceremonies. I don't think I've had more fun in my life than I did at Gathering, and it was in part due to you (well, not counting the whole "Greg created Gargoyles in the first place thing" - I don't want to give you ALL the credit for having a good time in my own hometown). I didn't sit in on many of your panels, but the few that I did sit in on showed me that you are funny, intelligent, and not very arrogant, considering you get worshipped as a god for three or four days a year (which would make my head inflate like Oberon in "The Gathering")
Second, I was one of the people that attended the MiSTing of "The Gathering I & II". I'm sure you remember, we were making lewd jokes and comments at the screen. Greg Bishansky said you were watching us from the back row. I was the one making bizzare gestures with shadows, particularly the picking of Oberon's nose.
This brings me to my question 1): Do Oberon's boogers have any magical powers? If so, what are they?
2): In 2198, are any of Oberon's boogers still around?
I am expecting a sarcastic remark on this one.
I'm trying to think of anything I can say that will disappoint you. But it all comes out with at least a vaguely sarcastic tone.
To my question about future occurences of Jeffrey Robbins you said:
>Yep. (And you worry too much. I'm not paying that close >attention.)
1. I'm glad Jeffrey wasn't a one-time character to you. Even as a teenager I wanted to see characters with disabilities in animation, to reflect the wide variety of people in society as a whole. My sister and I co-developed a series years ago where a visually impaired character was prominent (maybe someday we'll get to do somethin with it). Fifteen years after I first got seriously interested in animation, I've seen a wide growth in character ethnicity but still not much in this area. It's one reason I loved working on EXTREME GHOSTBUSTERS and having Garrett (voiced by Jason Marsden, also Pvt. Brutto from ROUGHNECKS) as our wheelchair bound hero who was such a good character you practically forgot about the wheelchair. Jeffrey's the same kind of character. While portrayed as the character is, ultimately you see the person.
To make this into a question, especially now that I realize that the elder Brutto in ROUGHNECKS ends up in a similar situation (not sure whose choice that was though): without forcing it into the story, would you be open to incorporating more characters with disabilities in animated series?
2. Me worry too much? I think there's a space in line for you behind my father and Kevin on that one. If Mom or my sister think it they're not saying. (In other words I get told that a lot.) Won't deny it. But you do I have to remember I didn't know you that well back then... much changes in a year.
1. Absolutely. Robbins, of course, was never a one-shot character. For starters,even with TGC, he appeared twice. And I hate to take credit where credit's not due, but I actually do believe that bringing Sgt. Brutto back in a wheelchair WAS my idea. Certainly, I was the first to write him back that way in "Funeral for a Friend". Claw was mute. Renard was confined to a wheelchair. I'm not tooting my own horn here, I just think that maybe you're overlooking characters because they fit so naturally into the series that you forgot they were disabled. I also would love to do a hearing impaired animated character with Marlee Matlin doing the voice. She used to come into Rockets and I once had such a big crush on her that I swore that if she came in one more time, I'd ask her to marry me. (She must have sensed that cause she never came back.)
2. Uh.... (The big problem here is that you attribute better memory function to me than I actually have. What were we talking about?)
i sent you this quote from St. Thomas Aquinas cuz of its implications in the gargoyle universe:
"Angels transcend every religion, every philosophy, every creed.
In fact angels have no religion as we know it...
their existence precedes every religious system that has ever existed on earth."
-St. Thomas Aquinas
and you asked if i had the dates of the quote, and as hard as i searched i couldn't find any, but i did some very interesting reading on him. Thomas Aquinas was an Italian philosopher and theologian who worked at various colleges in the Mediterranean world. he was probably born in 1225, and died in 1274, so most likely the quote was said between those two dates, LOL. hope thats helpful...
It's cool anyway. I love this kind of stuff.
Just got done reading the Greg Weisman section of the archives. Time for a LONG rant.
I wanted to tell you at the gathering, but I forgot. which angers me to no end, because i went on and on about this at work for months before i left for LA. in awakenings, elisa makes the number three on her hand. you said how odd it was that the japanese animation studio had her make three in that particular way, with the thumb, index and middle fingers. the reality is that thats the PROPER way in AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE to make the number three. they must have looked it up to see "how americans do it." what people usually do as three, with the thumb holding down the pinky, is actually "six" in sign language. and the thumb holding down the index finger is "nine" (with the middle being eight and the ring finger being seven.) a 'hitchikers thumb' is ten. :)
speaking of awakenings, the "nice mask" comment isnt in the "movie". i was mad. i pouted all night last night.
re: goliath and elisa needing help to have a child
technically, theyre closely related enough that they prolly could have a child. that child would not be fertile tho. a Stallion and a female donky can have a hinny, a Mare and a male donky can have a mule, but neither a mule nor a hinny can have offspring. though, in your book, a garg and a human may be way farther from eachother than a donkey and a horse. despite the fact that donkeys and horses arent nearly as related as they look.
I know you dont think this way, but humor me for a second. if you were an animal, what would you be? Tore (my fiancee) would be a polarbear. he likes red meat. he likes the cold. he LOOKS like a polarbear, even when hes not overweight. he acts like one. people give him the respect of one. and he's all white collar(fur) on the surface, and blends in with the crowd(snow) but underneath hes jet black(covered in tattoos, a closet freak ;P) it took a long LONG time to find an animal for me. im nocturnal. im cute. im mostly herbiverous, but not completely. i like florida's hot and muggy weather. i sleep a lot. we went through many rodent and lemur species before settling on flying squirrel.
on the topic of what names mean (oh wise one :) my full name is Kelly Leigh Creighton. Kelly started as a gaelic name, i think spelled calleach, pronounced ka-LEE-ack(phlem sound here). Then the irish clan the O'Kellys took the name. and they were a big factor in the liberation of ireland. so it became fashionable to name boys Kelly. then in 1958 i believe, there was an actress named Kelly. so it became okay to name girls kelly. which is more the case now. anyway, Kelly means "warrior of the king" or "female warrior" Leigh is an english word still used today (in britan) which means "meadow". my last name, Creighton, started as a scottish name, and then spread to england and ireland, where it took many diversion such as Crichton, etc. my family roots have been traced to scotland. it means "near the creek." so fully, my name means "Female warrior of the King, in the meadow near the creek." i always wonder if i will find a meadow near a creek with some unmarked grave in it or something.
along the same track, have you seen the gargoyles code? its a long string of letters and symbols that, if you know how to read them, describes one's character. part of the code is for real life, and asks how obsessed you are. the maximum obsession is defined by one who would be willing to be a test subject for a mutagen that might make them a gargoyle. im one of those silly people. are you? doubt it... (thats not meant to be offensive, i just doubt youre that kind of person :)
at the gathering, while talking about all the spinoffs, specifically i think you were talking about 2198, you said "and its really sad that im still working on this." actually, i dont think its sad at all. im pretty happy about it. because it really is something special. and we all believe in you. its pretty cool that youre as obsessed with your own shows as your fans.
i also recently learned that you dont drink, and think smoking is pretty haneous (sp?). that rules. its nice to see other people out there like that, not just in the fandom too. its really rare these days. not that i didnt respect you before, but i really respect that, and in a way, appreciate it.
i read about how you fell out of the bunkbed when you were little. that reminded me of my bunkbet gymnastics. i hate using the ladder, since i can never find it when im sleep walking. (i sleepwalk a LOT). so ive trained myself to grab the bar on the side of the bunk, or if there isnt one, the lip underneat the bunk, and flip over the side to land on the floor. thing is, if i lose my balance i land on the edge of the bunk below, instead of the floor, and wake whoever is sleeping there. usually, though, since im sleepwalking, i wont remember that i did it unless they confront me about it in the morning. so no guilt ;P
on sleepwaling: i have recently discovered that any time someone tells me im dreaming, i get very angry at them and insist im not, even if i am. i have instructed my parents (specifically my mom, my dad did it anyway because he thought it was funny) to just agree with me, pretend i make sense, and send be back off to bed. o_O
ive wanted to tell you about my religion for some time, but ive been a little nervous to, because its a touchy subject with some people. but after reading your views, i feel like i can at least give you a short version, and it shouldnt be too bad. basically i believe that there are an infinite number of universes, all connected by a void. everything is true, in some universe or another. and some things can travel thru the void into other universes. so basically all religions are true, because there are an infinite number of universes. i simply choose to pray to an alternate set of dieties than the normally accepted ones. which isnt to say i put any less faith in God or Budda (sp?), etc. I just choose not to pray to him/them. which i think this kind of falls into your beliefs anyway, since you belive in alternate universes, and that all things are true. which is basically what my religion preaches. so youre Raptorian and didnt even know it ;P
theres actually scientific evidence coming to light to support the "theory" of alternate universes. cold dark matter, morphic fields, time as a fourth dimension, the possible non-existance of time... its fascinating. this thing that i knew all along is now getting proved by science. basically, the theory of cold dark matter states that there is a force in the universe that is more powerful than gravity. but it only partially exists in this universe, so it is hard to see and study. and most of the force it exerts is exerted in another universe, so were not even getting the full effect. morphic feilds is the theory that everything in the universe is connected by lines of force. this explains why when an atom is split, and two electrons go zinging away from eachother at high speed, one can look at the north/south orientation of one electron and know that the other electron is the exact same. because they are connected. which is why dogs know when their owner is comming home, even if the spouse does not. which is why people can sometimes instinctively know that something is wrong with a loved one, even if miles away. why twins, if separated, can still sense what the other is doing, even if they dont have a twin. why sometimes we can predict the future, or get flashes from the past. morphic fields trancend even time. there is also a theory that states that time is the fourth dimension. basically, since were three dimensional creatures, we can see the EDGE of things in TWO dimensions (meaning you can see the edge of a planar surface), and we can COMPREHEND things in the THIRD dimension (you cant see the edge of a 3D object, a coke can for example, the edge curves away from you and you cant see it. technically, it has no edge). fourth dimensional beings could see our EDGE, and comprehend the fourth dimension. we, as 3d creatures, can only measure what we think is the passing of time. a two dimensional creature could only measure the third dimension. of course there is another theory, who's own creator admits that its just a neat theory he came up with and doenst actually believe in. he said that maybe time doesnt exist at all. maybe we think time passes, just like when we watch a movie we think the pictures are going by, but its just many still frames. as in there is an alternate universe for each second in time. and we only think there is motion because at each second, we have the memories of all the things that have passed before. its an interesting theory, but im more inclined to think of time as the fourth dimension.
anyway, im done rambling for the night. please feel free to comment as you see fit, or not at all :)
Whew...
Random responses...
I think that humans and gargoyles are biologically much further apart than horses and donkeys.
I already AM an animal. Homo Sapiens, I believe.
Even after your explanation, I'm still not sure what the Gargoyles code is. But no, I wouldn't want to be a mutagen guinea pig.
And I was being a bit fecetious and/or self-deprecating (given my audience) at the Gathering when I said it was 'sad'. Obviously, I enjoy still thinking about the property.
I do think smoking is a fairly heinous and shockingly stupid habit. Though I generally try not to preach. As for alcohol, I see nothing wrong with drinking in moderation -- for most people. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people.
I'm Jewish. And a bit pagan. I believe in the religion of the Three Musketeers: "All for one, and one for all." Or something like that.
Time has also been referred to as the fourth dimension in the sense that it spots any point. You can spot a point in three dimensions and still miss it if you don't also measure it's location in time.
I read in the archives that you liked the Simpsons and Futurama.
1.Which episodes do you like the most?
2.What do you think of the new eiposdes thay had the last years (2-3 years ago)compared to the first ones (87-97)?
1. I have a number of favorites. A few Simpsons that spring to mind is Lisa learning about her fist love in the future; the chili cook-off; the first couple Side-Show Bob episodes; the one with John Waters; and many, many others...
2. I think that recent Simpsons though still funny are a bit too random for my tastes. No coherent storylines that take things through from beginning to end, rendering most themes that they half-heartily try to employ as useless. But I still watch cuz individual bits still make me laugh.
Futurama however has the energy and story strength that I think Simpsons is now lacking.
And King of the Hill may be better than both of them. (I don't like the art as much, but I've gotten used to it.)
In your latest Random Stuff, you said you thought Michael Reeves' thing about Demona casting a spell on the gargoyles the night before they woke up would make them switch to modern English...that doesn't work:
They were speaking and reading modern English syntaxicly (is that a word, syntatically) and verbally in the 10th century when they should have been speaking and reading Middle English. The familiar form of you (thou) wansn't even close to being uttered.
However, it could just be that "Awakenings" was just made into modern English so we could understand it; sort of like if an American wrote a novel about Russians, the characters' dialogue would be in English, but we're just supposed to know that it is really Russian. Get it? Is that what we were supposd to assume what was going on?
I just had trouble accepting the rambling as a concrete reason behind the Gargoyles' language.
If you buy into Michael's explanation, then yes, I think you have to assume that the tenth century sections were translations for the viewers' benefit. I haven't STUDIED Michael's idea or thought about it's ramifications. So I'm not saying that the idea is canon (there's that word again) in my head yet. But I think it has promise.
As I've mentioned before, originally it was a cheat that we thought we could live with artistically.
for some reason i feel compelled to share this with you:
ok, i didn't even think about this until you mentioned the "Cairn" that Goliath and co. were imprisoned in in a recent question, but my dog, Gus, is a Cairn Terrier, and i've commonly called him a hound of ulster in my best irish accent. and i suddenly realized that that is funny not only cuz his species was named for digging into the same kind of place as "The Hound of Ulster" had its climax, but a Cairn Terrier was also Toto in "The Wizard of Oz" which was quoted twice in the episode (once by Elisa, and once by Banshee). and then at random i choose Cuchallin as my new screen icon in the Comment Room here! wow! i just thought that was an amazing string of coincidences, or are they coincidences?
why was "The Wizard of Oz" quoted twice seperatly in this one episode, even when it was never quoted anywhere else in the series? seems weird...
anyway, thats all i have to say... oh, and hey! now my dog is famous for being mentioned online to the Wizard of Ask Greg! hooray Gus (aka the hound of ulster reborn, lol)
Well, I like the Wizard of Oz.
I don't really remember the specifics of how those quotes got in there, but it's likely that if one was down on paper our brains may have been in Oz mode, summoning up the other.
Another little ramble.
The last page of the Gargoyles 2198 proposal is more about the business side of the show. You wrote that WB has DC and Marvel is piecing out its characters; Disney has nothing to compete, "but Gargoyles was designed to be that competition."
I've been thinking about that statement and it does seem odd to me that Gargoyles is one of the few properties that Disney isn't taking full advantage of. Their animated features have be released and re-released on video and it seems that every new release is followed relatively quickly by a direct-to-video sequel and/or an animated series. They're even giving the sequel treatment to classics like Lady and the Tramp and Cinderella.
I wonder what it is about Gargoyles that prevents Disney from giving it similar treatment.
Well, you don't see Darkwing getting that treatment either.
There generally hasn't been as much support for believing in their tv properties.
Also, I think they still, STILL, don't quite no what to make of or do with Gargoyles.
Do I believe they are missing a bet? Absolutely. But the climate to change their minds hasn't surfaced yet.
Hi, Greg
This is just a ramble to say thanks again for the G2198 prize. I've read it several times, and I really hope the show gets made someday; I can hardly wait to see it.
Although it would be neat to have a document like this for any of the spin-offs, this is really the one to have. Gargoyles 2198 is really the culmination of everything we know. I see so many of the episodes (especially the World Tour) in a different light, and the other proposed spin-offs seem to be leading right into this one.
You said that the prize itself was worthless, but it has quickly become one of my prized possessions. Thanks again!
You're welcome.
I'm planning a new contest coming up soon.
you asked for favorite smartass responses.
Heather "HUDSON" writes...
Greg,while at the Gathering, I was talking to Thom,who had this to say about Lexington:" But, I'm a virgin..."
I suppose, there has to be a celebate Gargoyle,eh?
Is this what you had in mind for the character? Or, does he get his jollies, through cyber-sex?
Personally, I don't care if he ever finds a mate...
Greg responds...
What's the question?
Are you asking if Lex is a virgin or Thom?
Ed writes...
'THE EDGE' comments.
Not a big favourite. The animation is gorgeous, and the ending is sublime. But the Steel Clan echoed the Foot Clan a bit much for my tastes. I can't remember my first viewing that well, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't expect the red robot to be Xanatos. (Although I should have, because I'd seen 'FUTURE TENSE' a few months previously).
In hindsight, there are several nice touches and the writing is delightful. But it wasn't one of those episodes where the difference between normal action cartoons and 'Gargoyles' leap out and grab you.
I guess I just never liked the Steel Clan.
Greg responds...
Oh, well...
They speak well of you though.
recorded on 07-03-00
and my ABSOLUTE FAVORITE (which actually had me in tears):
Okay... Let me try for something less revelatory... You said that Goliath and Elisa would raise a kid together. What *gender* kid? :-)
Greg responds...
Hey, how do you do that particular smiley face.
No. It's missing a nose. Wait a second.
No, that seems like too big a nose.
Large nostrils.
Hell, I just can't figure it out. :(
What was the question?
As long as I keep everyone entertained, what difference does it make if I ever answer anything, right?
another science question (can you tell i have no life?)
i had a discussion with my biology teacher, specifically regarding the effects of a mutagen. she said it was actually possibly toalter the DNA of a creature, but the metamorphosis would take a long time, since it would only happen as the individual cells divided. some cells divide frewquently, like skin cells. bone cells do not. so basically the metamorphosis would have taken a lot longer. except im assuming sevarius would have taken this into account, and added a stimulant. sorry, not really a question, im just going on and on and on at this point ;P
Stimulant works for me. Not that I take them, of course.
ooh wait found another one. (please, if you dislike the fact that im posting dozens of questions, let me know and i will stop at once.)
Anonymous writes...
You said that the New Olympians had something better than nuclear tech could you tell us what it is?
Greg responds...
Zeracoy Enex Power.
(I just made that up.)
recorded on 06-29-01
thats great!
I feel like now, I could come up with something that sounded better but made no more sense.
Monday
We headed down in time for the 3x3 eyes Q & A to look for Thom. But Mr. Punctuality is nowhere to be found. Turns out he left earlier to feed his dogs. So we stake out the only way in or out and do eventually waylay him for a bit, ostendably so he can pick up the stained glass Lex he bought. (And so he'll do the line) "C'mon, Greg's already going to rag on you for being late anyway." ;)
Thom does eventually record the line, so I also have a recording of Thom pretending he's Riff Raff, which I need to get to Lynati.
We attend closing ceremonies, which are always kind of bittersweet, and get pre-reged for next year.
After that, we sadly see Lynati off in a cab, and Wolfie, Dreamie, Warpy, Josh, Mara and I all piled into Wolfie's convertable and headed off to a chinese place Josh recommended for lunch. (Funny thing though. An hour later we were hungry again) ;)
Mara and I actually stayed until Wednesday, but that's the end of the Gathering stuff. Except for some...
Random Stories: I don't remember exactly when or where I heard these, but I thought they should be shared.
Crispy apparently had a running war with the hotel staff. He emptied his mini-bar and put his own stuff in it, which you weren't allowed to do. The staff takes it back out, and restocks the minibar. Crispy re-empties the minibar, and puts his stuff back. The staff swaps it again, and leaves him a note saying to cut it out. I don't even want to *think* about his minibar bill.
Why does Duke L'Orange sound just like Brooklyn? Apparently, when they created the character, he was supposed to be *French*. But they didn't like that, so they tried making him English instead. Apparently, they didn't like that either, so Jeff, just goofing around, starts doing his Brooklyn voice, and they're like "That's it! That's perfect!"
What were all those norms in formal wear doing at the hotel? On Friday, they were there for a wedding in the Roof Garden. A wedding that, according to Greg, trashed the place. On Saturday, I was heading up the escalator to get my auction cash, when I passed Myhr going down. He asked if I knew what was going on in the other big room downstairs, and I guessed it was a wedding. He shook his head and said "It's somebody's 18th birthday." Which blew me away. I said "When I turned eighteen, I got a cake and twenty bucks." Myhr says "I got thrown out of the house." "You win."
To sum up...
1 Coke from the hotel minibar: $2.65
Sushi dinner for two at Wasabi's: $40.00
Eye of Greg: $65.00
One week of Mara's company: Priceless.
Thanks for listening to me ramble, Greg. And see ya next year.
Looking forward to it, my friend.
Sunday.
Sunday was a weird day. As I kept remarking to people, "This four day con schedule is really throwing me off." (This was in no way a bad thing, it's just that all the other cons I've been to have been three day affairs, so I felt like I should be rushing to things that weren't happening yet)
Mara and I wandered over to City Walk and spent too much time and money on souvenirs for other people, and T-shirts with witty saying on them. We also spent most of the time sharing a really great slushy from a little shop nestled in between two huge ones. If you're ever there again, I recommend the place highly.
We thought we got back to the hotel in time, but, um, various factors made us really late to the VA autograph sessions. (Had I but known Cree Summer was going to be there... I would have had her autograph my copy of Street Fairy) By the time I got there, Cree and Keith David had left, and Jeff Bennett had to run off to his Mug-a-Guest. (Again, I kept forgetting most of the guests actually *lived* in the city we were in. It wasn't like previous years where they're trapped with us for the duration) Warpy and I were actually supposed to be the last people in line, but a few more people showed up and I didn't have the heart to turn them away. I lost Mara and Lynati for a while here, but found them again by the time I was near the finish. The remaining VAs, Crispy, Elisa, Neil, Gregg, and Thom were all still signing away tho', and I got some more names for my giant puzzle. Neil, Gregg, and Elisa especially seemed really tickled that this many people would line up for them. For my part, I thought they were all very nice, and I was impressed that Elisa recognized her character. Thom looked like he was going to fall asleep in his chair, and complained of being hungry.
Thom also, at that point at least, had apparently seen Moulen Rouge three times. Mara'd seen it four times, and the two began an animated conversation about it.
And then... The auction!
I'd like to thank Myhr for being such a great auctioneer, and Draconis for stepping in when Myhr's voice started to give out.
I have, apparently, gotten a reputation as something of an auction maniac. "God of the bid", I believe was the phrase. I don't know how that happened. ^_^ I certainly wasn't close to Demona May and Heather Rice, (Two big spenders who were conspicuously absent from the auction this year), or whoever bought The Mirror for eight hundred odd dollars. But I do love an auction. Always get a good seat down front, and bring some pretty girls to distract the auctioneer if you can.
I was bidding for myself, Mara, and (sometimes) Lynati, and eventually for a pool to get one of the Carl Johnson CDs, so it might have looked like I was rolling in it.
I did mess with Jannie a little, as she'd promised a couple of weeks before to give me a run for my money. I did *not* bid against Siryn, (Don't annoy next year's con head) but anybody else was fair game to be bid against. And bid I would.
Apparently, there was some feeling that I was simply raising the bids for the sake of doing so. I swear that I bid on nothing I wasn't interested in, I simply wasn't *as* interested in some things as I was in others. And anyway, it is for charity after all. And since I wasn't allowed to give blood, I let myself go a bit at the auction, along with encouraging others to do the same. "C'mon, you can go without food for a couple of days..."
I have no idea what our final haul was since I lost track of what I bid on vs. what I actually got, but there is one standout: The shrinky-dink Brooklyn, a.k.a. The Eye of Greg, acquired for a meer three times what Greg thought it would go for.
The two stories I know are going to make the rounds are:
A. When I'd gotten up to get autographs from the crew, but was still multitasking on the auction. I'd just finished thanking the crew collectively for their autographs and the work they did on the show when I heard one of a pair of bidders who'd been going back and forth go to $35. So I yelled $40. Apparently I don't multitask as well as I thought I did, because I outbid Mara. Oops. (She got me back later) It wasn't my fault, Draconis was standing between us. And then I got outbid by a young woman sitting in the second row. So I stomp toward her, mock-angry, still going back and forth, making "Smite" gestures at her every time I outbid her, walked past her, all the way back to my seat, and then asked "What are we bidding on again?" Which broke everybody up. (Except maybe her) So I turn to look at the items on the block, some of the Hardwired action figures, and say "Oh, I don't want that. You can have that." (If you're reading this, I'm sorry, I thought it was a different set of action figures. One of the Demona/Elisa ones)
B. The script for Hunter's Moon Pt III, the radio play version comes up, and I want it. Naturally, I'm not the only one. Sadly, the auction was winding down, because it really only came down to me and Greg B. He bid fifty bucks, and I asked him if he got it, he'd put it on the internet for all to see, right? And he says no! And to me, in auction mode, he sounds sincere. So I do the only thing I *can* do under the circumstances: Put the bid up to $60. And he's like "I was kidding! Of course I'll put it up! Sixty-five!" So I made him swear on his word of honor that he would put it up for all to see, (Of course, I don't know if I should have trusted the word of a guy whose personal heroes are Xanatos and Megatron... Just kiddin' Greg) and quit bidding.
After that, we scarcely had time to pick up our things before running back to the room to change for the banquet. We came in late, and ended up at a table with a bunch of people we didn't know, Lynati, and I'm afraid I've completely blanked out on the name of the gentleman who was our guest.
Dinner was interesting. Definately the fanciest meal I've ever been to. (I really should have remembered to grab a coke out of the minibar) During the meal, we could see Thom and Crispy getting up and going back and forth between their tables. This was the subject of much debate at our table, so I got elected to go over and find out what was going on.
I have no idea what started them off like this, probably something at a panel earlier, but they were one-upping each other. At least that was what Thom told me. As near as I could piece together, Thom went over to Crispy, pretending to be a waiter, and said "I'm sorry sir, your Visa has been declined. You'll have to leave." So Crispy comes back a bit later and says "FBI sir, you'll have to come with me." So Thom thinks about that for a minute, and goes back with "Don Johnson wants his outfit back." (And, to be fair, Crispy *did* look kinda like something off Miami Vice)
So Crispy goes over and kisses Thom. And everybody claps. Including, after a moment, Thom. Sort of acknowledging that Crispy had won. So I, hating to see Thom lose, go over to and tell him to go lick Crispy's ear. That should guarantee a win. Thom kinda thinks about it for a minute, and then says that he'd already given Crispy his due. "But that would have been good tho'."
On the way over to the dessert buffet, (my favorite part of the meal) we pass Greg's table, and he notices that I have The Eye of Greg on, and asks how much it went for. I tell him $65, and he says that it "wasn't worth anywhere near that much, but thank you." I protest that it's a Greg Weisman original, and besides, I'm sure it has magical, creative powers. Greg says that he'd gotten kind of used to wearing it, and I offer, in all sincerety, to give it back to him. (Lest he, I don't know, try to reclaim it later, Odin-like. How he'd do that I don't know. Write me into Team Atlantis at the Vinnie character, maybe. I didn't say any of that at the time tho') Greg says, no, for me to keep it, and then says "You know I licked it, right?" "Really?!?" "No, not really."
We stayed, probably too long, for the artist awards, and then ran down to get changed. Really, we should have practiced this before. Various problems, mostly with my costume, took forever. (For all would-be Gorebash award contestants, you cannot fill condoms with water and then cram them into a bra. They WILL break. Use jello. Do *not* use pudding, because that has oil in it, and that will eat the latex and make a *huge* mess. Don't ask me why Hudson knew that...) Anyway, then we had to blow dry my dress... With me in it...
So we get in the elevator with two norms, one of whom says "Do I even want to know?" I just tell him that cross dressers always get great responses, and leave it at that.
When we get there, horribly late, but Slash is still playing. Thanks for stalling for us, and the other late arrival Slash. We get to go on, to much applause, and I get a little silly, performing for the crowd. Thom starts yelling for me to come over and give Lydia Moreno a lap dance, and I act like I'm going to do it, but at the last minute I sit on his lap instead. So after that photo op, I slink over to Greg, who says that he's "not as good a sport as Thom is" (Greg's words. I beg to differ) so I don't sit on his lap. Seth comes running out of the crowd, and stuffs a dollar down the front of my dress, and we leave the stage. There's one more act, and the judges leave for a bit. I've got some great photos of "Dueling Foxes" in here, along with pics with Patrick "Reno" Chavez. Jen remarks that she "can't wait until these hit the 'net."
The judges come back. Wolfie and Dreamie have won the Thom Adcox Memorial award, Mara and I have won the Gorebash award, "Because no one worked harder for it." as Greg put it.
And then I got to spring a gag I'd been planning since before G2K, giving Thom a pair of official Backstreet Boys underwear. I meant to do it in Orlando, but I chickened out. But I figured I'd already put on a dress and fake boobs, so what did I have to lose? Thom accepted them with a smile and a laugh. Thom also promised to record a line from Rocky Horror for Lynati the next day. Thom is the greatest sport in the history of the world. :)
After the dance broke up, Mara, Lynati, and I drifted back to our room, and had a long conversation about fic before turning in.
Aaron, Sounds like you had a great time. You're diaries are a better advert for the G's than anything I can think of. Thanks.
(But i"m glad you stayed off my lap, lady.)
Saturday
Saturday was hang with Lynati day. We got to make a much more thorough creep through the Dealer's room, where I bought Mara a pair of little black wings, which she wore the rest of the day, Lynati got herself a tail, and I had to talk myself out of buying a pair of really cool gauntlets on the grounds that the claws were made of plastic, and therefore useless. I also spent waaaaaay too much time at the edged weapons rack. In retrospect, I kind of wish I had bought that giant broadsword, even if getting it home would have been an adventure, if only because the picture of me holding it didn't come out. (That would be the giant broadsword I tried to lift one-armed and nearly dropped on Kanthara. Sorry Kat) Then we realized that Mara hadn't put up her art yet, so we hauled over to the art room and started hanging stuff. (Next year, we have *got* to get an H-rated section for the art show)
During most of the time in the art room, we'd been having a great conversation with Lynati about her ficverse. I am *really* impressed. (I'm pretty sure this is all circumsptect enough to get by, especially since you already said you don't like the idea of the gargs universe being a multiverse)
My ficverse is kind of like a puzzle. Occasionally, I get a few more pieces to fall into place, and it sheds some light on things. Lynati... Lynati has notebooks devoted simply to the bloodlines of her characters. Can you imagine trying to keep bloodlines straight in a *multiverse*? Lynati is mad cool.
We wandered from there until we ran into Jen, (Who did ask if she could kick Josh's @$$. Hey Josh, I think she likes you!) and got sent over to the storyboarding panel to fill in the audience. (Poor guys, they got stuck in the hardest to find room, no wonder they were lonely)
After that, it was back to that art room to make sure we weren't being outbid on anything, and eventually we gathered a bunch of TGS posters around us. It was kind of like having a live TGS room. Greg came through with his family, and we all started genuflecting when they were leaving. Greg's response: "Don't do that in front of my kids, guys."
We made a quick trip back to the room for lunch, if you can call one piece of left-over pizza each lunch. We had to, since it would be the only food we ate all day.
And then it was time for the radio play. Hunter's Moon Part III, the expanded version, reedited by Greg for the occasion. (Hmm, I don't remember Demona grunting and groaning so much in the TV version) It was a blast to listen to, especially with the presence of actual gargs VAs, (and Crispy's impression of Broadway is scarily accurate) and full of material I expect to see start turning up in fanfic soon, like Charles Canmore's line about "We can no more stop hunting The Demon then breathing the air.", and Jason's admission that none of them even know *why* they hunt gargoyles, aside from family tradition. Greg Bishanksy would eventually end up with the script, and hopefully he'll be putting it up soon, so you can all see it. (That is okay, right Greg?)
I spent most of the Radio Play listening while splitting between watching Mara draw, and watching the little girl in front of us watch Mara draw.
(Another thing about this year's con: There were kids! And they didn't belong to Christine or Greg. I know the fandom hasn't spawned that much since last year, so the show must be catching on with it's "intended demographic." Kick@$$!)
After the radio play, we got another example of why Thom is the coolest guy in the world. If anybody knows about cleaning up audio, I have a kinda scratchy minitape recording of Thom saying something really funny.
3x3 Eyes was showing in one of the video rooms, so Mara, Lynati, Warpy, and I followed Greg, who declined to stick around and watch it this time. Unfortunately, either the staff forgot the second tape, or it grew legs and walked off. (I hope not) So that makes twice I've seen the beginning, without ever seeing the end. I guess I should just give up and buy the DVD, now that I *finally* have a player. Warmed up from the night before, and working with material we'd seen already, we were soon MiSTing it in fine form. We were on a serious roll, which carried on through the first four eps of the Utena dub. I'm beginning to suspect that Zelgadis sounds like Crispy, but Touga *is* Crispy.
With the credits rolling, and Spawn apparently cancelled, we were turned out. But nobody wanted to go to bed yet, so the four of us ended up deciding to check out the roof garden where the banquet would be held the next day. Heh. I'm not sure what I had pictured, something open-air with potted palm trees all over the place maybe, but it was a little less roof, and a lot less garden then that. The floor to ceiling windows did provide a pretty nice view of LA at night, however.
So we stayed there for I don't know how long, having one of those wonderful non-linear conversations, mostly between Lynati and I, about our respective ficverses. So here we are, having this loud conversation about fic, and even acting out some of it, when who walks in but Greg himself, followed by the rest of the con staff. We stayed for a while after that, trying to be quieter, but eventually we all grew tired and went our separate ways.
I hope we didn't kick you out.
And Greg can post it if he wants, I guess.
Friday.
It was the weirdest thing, being in the west. I kept waking up at like seven a.m., due to not being adjusted to the time change. LA has some beautiful sunrises. (Got some nice sunsets too) Still didn't make it out of the room before ten tho'... Heh. "Every time I try to leave... Someone keeps pullin' at my sleeve..."
Anyway, we went in search of registration, and found it, along with Jen, and one of her twin daughters. Which still freak me out. Jen doesn't look like she's had four kids, nor does she look old enough to have had four kids. Not only that, but her eleven year old is *taller* then me. (Future WNBA standout, I guess)
We also ran into Warpy, the Cutest Couple from last year, (Who were sporting a great "Let a gargoyle sit on your face" button) Vatana, my old auction partner from G99, who I don't keep track of well enough, and Lynati, who we would end up adopting, and spending most of the con with. Lynati's cool.
Which leads me to another point. How many people remember their first con? (If G2K1 was your first con, then obviously you do) I remember mine. (G99 in Dallas) It was fun, but like most firsts, losing your con virginity is also kinda scary. I remember being on my own in a strange city, not really knowing anyone, feeling kinda out of place. I mean, I met people in Dallas, but I felt a little too intimidated talking to *The* Greg, or even *the* Christine Morgan, to really do more then sort of float around their periphery. (Heh, that was when I even knew who people were. When I met Jen in Dallas, all I knew was that she was a pretty lady who responded to my offer to split a pizza with the words "F**k yes!") I know Mara had a similar experience when she first got to Orlando.
I know I'm supposed to be talking about *this* year's con, but bear with me, there is a point to this.
The point is that we, the people who've been here before, the older guard, (I wouldn't call myself old school, since it's the people like The Morgans, The Andersons, and the Wittenbergs, who were going to Gatherings when I didn't even know there *was* a fandom who deserve that distinction) need to do some more voluntary newbie adoption. If you see someone in Virginia who looks a little dazed, a little lost or a little overwhelmed, and they're sitting by themselves... (Had to include that. If they look all of the above, but are surrounded by people, they're probably Con Staff, not newbies) Anyway, if you see someone like that, go over and say hi. Introduce yourself. Invite them to join you. Make them feel welcome. Because we were all newbies once. And because newbies *are* the lifeblood of the fandom. Without them, there is no growth, and really, no hope of getting our beloved show back. And they're more likely to keep coming back, and bring others with them, if they have a good time. So adopt a newbie, and eventually they, in turn, will adopt their own. To quote a movie nobody saw, they won't pay it back, they'll pay it forward.
Whew, I didn't expect to get so into that. But anyway...
Right next to registration there was a nice big TV showing garg eps, and well, we couldn't resist MiSTing them good naturedly, along with a group of about twenty or so. Eventually the tape ran out, and since no replacement seemed forthcoming, I grabbed something I'd brought, a tape with a bunch of fan videos, mostly by Brad De Moss. We got to watch about half of them there before decamping to the con suite to watch the rest. (BTW, could someone who was on staff remind me of that one staffer's name? She was about my height, i.e., short, kind of curly brown hair. I was supposed to see about getting her a copy of that tape. My email addy is JCarnage@Yahoo.com Thanks)
While we were in the con suite, Thom and Greg showed up, and, to me at least, it looked like they'd come as each other, since it looked as if Greg had taken off his beard and given it to Thom. When I remarked on this, Greg misinterpreted, and said, "When did I wear khakis?"
We made a quick trip back to the room to dump off our registration stuff, and then hit Crispin Freeman's panel. I wish Greg could have made it, because I think he really would have appreciated a lot of what Crispy said about the hero's journey, mythological archetypes, historical gargoyles, and such.
(After the panel, Crispy also told a story that might be of some interest to Slayers fans. Apparently, due to recording schedule, Crispy was supposed to do a bit where Zelgadis says "That... is a secret." like Xellos does. Only they hadn't done any recordings with David Moo yet, so Crispy had no idea how he was supposed to deliver the line. So the Voice Director, (or VD as Warpy would later remark) told him, "Don't worry, just say the line however you think it should be done, and we'll make him do it like you did it." So Crispy does the line, and it sounds pretty cool when he does it. Not quite as cool as when Akira Ishida does it, but pretty cool. And then they called him back the next day... (Insert hilarious impression of David Moo by Crispy here) and said they'd have to do it again. Yes folks, bad as he was, David Moo could, and did, do worse.
Conveniently, the "Writing Successful Crossover Fiction" panel featuring Mara, Christine, Tigris Euphrates, and Gencie Salter was in the same room, so we didn't have to move much. Not having a set agenda, the group wandered merrily for over an hour, entertaining the masses and making a lot of humorous references to the "Other Panel" which is apparently extremely entertaining if you can find out where and when it's being held. (I think I showed off my tattoo for the first time this con in here. I seemed to be showing it to more people then last year, but then I think Mara just likes any excuse to have me take my shirt off in public) We also met Josh, and made his list of people he's pretty sure exist.
After the panel broke up, we took a quick look around the dealer's room, and then ran into Hudson, who told us he was forming a "Gargoyles Mafia" out of everyone who brought enough black clothing. After happening by accident at the last two cons, Clan Mafia now officially exists. And, even better, it's integrated now, Mara, Lynati, and (I think) Kanthara being the female contingent of CM.
A quick run back to the room to change into more evil-looking outfits, and Clan Mafia assembled, waiting to make an entrance at Opening Ceremonies. (Poor Kai. He tried, he really did. Black T-shirt, slacks, and wingtips, but I don't thing he's really cut out to be CM. Sorry Kai) While we were waiting I had kind of an interesting Admin to Admin to Admin talk with Kai ("Oh, so you're the sucker that got my job.") and Hudson, who has made me his Padawan. One day, I too shall be able to smite people like he does. ;)
I love hotels with mirrored walls, and CM looked pretty cool, if I do say so myself, doing that Reservoir Dogs walk down that wide hall, all of us flanking Hudson. (BTW, if anybody has a picture of that, or of later, when we're doing the group photo, please contact me at the addy listed above, because mine didn't come out)
Opening ceremonies were their usual blend of old and new. (Hee-hee, I wonder how long it'll be before Greg starts making *us* tell his stories. We know them better then he does) The highlight was Lexy receiving her "Warpy" (As we nicknamed the little bald statuettes later) for being Fan Guest of Honor. Congratulations Lexy. No one deserved it more.
Other notable points included Greg's ace podium-moving crew, (Can Patrick Toman supervise or what?) a really nice letter from Ed Asner, who said he wanted to be there so bad he considered crawling to LA, and a message from Frank Welker. The original was lost, but Greg summed it up in his usual inimitable manner. "Frank says he doesn't do conventions, because truthfully you people scare him." I'm not sure if he was kidding or not. Greg also showed off one of his contributions to the charity auction, a shrinky-dink Brooklyn, which would come to be known as The Eye of Greg.
And I want to echo Patrick's thanks to Scott Sakai and his crew. The AV setup rocked! (And it's probably be the closest we'll get to seeing gargs on a big screen anytime soon. Sigh)
After OC, a showing of Awakenings was scheduled, but most of CM decamped after being told it was the movie edit. We again adjourned to the courtyard in front of the hotel, and hung out by the "Mountain Dew fountain", so named because of the color of the water in it. (The observation was made that for their prices, we should get an *actual* fountain of Mountain Dew) Ordering pizza for twelve is always complex, but we managed. While we were waiting, Hudson regaled us with stories of how the dotcom fallout affected he and Chris, and a really funny one involving Twisted Sister's "We're Not Gonna Take It!" and a patrol car... Another one of my lost pics, Mara and Lynati doing a really, um... interesting looking stretching exercise happened somewhere in here.
Eventually, the pizzas arrived, and we returned to catch the last of Awakening Part V while scarfing pie. And then it was time for the moment I'd been waiting for, Garg MST3K.
I admit to a bit of professional jealously here. I wondered at first why, if gargs were to be MiSTed, Mara and her trusty sidekick (That'd be me) didn't get to host. But Jade Griffin and Beedoo! do episodes, not fic, and do them pretty well, so it worked out. Eventually and appropriately enough, The Gathering, Parts I and II, were MiSTed. If anyone knows where the final script wound up, or if it's even up yet, please direct me to it.
Gargs fans tend to be pretty funny people, and this group proved no exception. The two episodes were MiSTed with much hilarity. Although I think the best gag may have been between episodes, on a joint effort between Hudson and Josh. (Which is funny in and of itself, considering the cr@p Huds was giving him earlier about his Mac Geek shirt) The blue screen you get from an empty VCR came on, and Josh shouted "It's a blue screen of death!" Hudson promptly responded: "This con has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. Please reboot your con head, or strike any attendee to continue."
Again, much appreciation for the big screen, since it made physical comedy possible. At one point, I simply reached up and made it look like I was groping Titania. Which started Josh picking Oberon's nose. I'm told that Greg, who unbeknownst to us, had been watching the whole time, put his hand over his eyes and shook his head at that point.
Pure fiction. I never covered my eyes. Sometimes my head does shake of its own accord, however.
(This was written for the TGS room, so if it doesn't seem addressed directly to you, that's why. And it's really cool of you to solicit our Gathering Diaries like this)
Okay, the Gathering was both a blast and a blur for me, (And I spent the whole con in close proximity to Mara, so I was a little distracted) so if I'm leaving someone or something out, please remind me. Thanks. And before we go any further, I'd like to give mad props to all the Staff, volunteers, and guests, who made G2K1 such a special event. You guys kick @$$.
Thursday.
I managed to grab five hours of sleep by virtue of sleeping through a ringing alarm for an hour, before being shaken awake by my mom. I throw on my clothes, stagger downstairs with my one giant bag, (Which, by virtue of being older then me, has no wheels on it) and go tearing off to the airport. And I was off... To Houston that is. For those not familiar with Texas geography, I had to fly east before I could fly west. Fun huh?
The flight to LA was the longest two and a half hours of my life. (Heh, that's what the lady on the plane said it was. I realized after some quick calculations (Bear in mind, I suck at math) that she wasn't factoring in the time difference between Houston and LA, so the flight was more like three and a half hours. And they showed "Air Bud: World Pup" for most of the flight. (Shudder) I was finally so bored I turned to the guy next to me and said "So, what do you do? And please don't tell me you sell soap." Of course, he didn't get the ref...
In retrospect, Josh was right. I should have shelled out the extra $ for tickets into Burbank instead of LAX. Between scrubbing our initial approach for reasons I could never find out, being towed to the gate, baggage claim, etc., I started looking for Mara about thirty minutes late. Little did I know that I would still be looking for her two hours later. LAX, if you've never been, is a big place. I know, because I got some bad directions, and went on a walking tour that included five of the seven terminals in it.
Much later, having been all over the place, having tried to drag a hand truck up a flight of stairs, paged Mara several times, dealt with the mind-numbing stupidity that is the Spirit Airlines staff, been back and forth through security, (people wearing black trenchcoats, collars, finger armor, and carrying three pairs of sunglasses, a minitape recorder, a minimaglite, a lighter, and a lucky coin do not have an easy time with metal detectors) made an urgent phone call to New York to make sure Mara'd even gotten on her plane in the first place, and fended off religious types intent on pressing books on meditation on me by threatening to beat the cr@p out of them, I gave up. I was wandering aimlessly somewhere in terminal six when some impulse turned me back the way I had just come. And then I saw a figure in a black trenchcoat walking toward me...
Cue the Romeo and Juliet music, slow down the film, do the scene that's been parodied a thousand times. I had a brief thought that with my luck, I was probably running toward Hudson, but that was dispelled as she started running toward me. I still have no idea what I did with the hand truck, but I had other things to think about at that moment. Like my first kiss. :)
I went from bummed to wonderful, and stayed there. That was the last time I would feel more then mildly vexed for a week. This is also when life took on a faint air of unreality...
After some time sitting on a bench catching up, and a quick call back to NYC, we grabbed a shuttle and headed for the hotel. The shuttle ride may have taken as much time as the flight. Highlights I can share included a sign that said LA, Population: Way too many, and Mara's remark that LA looks just like New Jersey, except it doesn't smell.
After check in, the first Gathering attendee we ran into was Slash's mom, followed by Demona May, who had a room right down the hall. She seemed geared up for a loooooooong conversation, but we declined, having been up since early that morning. So we finally found our room, and... Let's skip ahead to that evening. (Heh. BTW, how many people noticed that the logo under the room number looked like a multi-colored Hunter's mask? "But what could leave clawmarks in solid plastic?" ;) )
Eventually, we wandered back downstairs, in search of sustenance, and decided to cheat a bit, and see if we could find a Pizza Hut instead of letting one come to us. We were sent off in the direction of the City Walk, a five minute ride away via a trolley with really bad shocks, and wandered around the place for a bit, freaking the mundanes and taking in the local color. Eventually we discovered the world's only grilled pizzeria, and decided that there was a reason it was the only one, so we headed back to the hotel.
Returning, who do we find waiting in front of the hotel but Hudson and Zaius, (Whose name I can finally remember after three Gatherings. Sorry Z) who were waiting for their own pizza, from Pizza Hut no less.
So we shot the breeze for a while, which the hotel staff must have loved, (Four people in black trenchcoats hanging out in front of the main doors) and caught up generally, before leaving to order our own pizza. When the gargfans are hungry, the pizza will appear... On the way back, we ran into Warpy, and had a short conversation, during which I was mostly marveling at how cool Warpy's accent is.
Sounds good so far...
OK Last year I wrote a HUGE Gathering report. Then my comp fell on its face, and I lost all of it:P So this year I am going to just write about the stuff at the GATHERING instead of including all of my vacation. I will include a _few_ highlights, but that is all.
I went on this trip with three other ppl. Kaioto, Marisa and Jamie. We spent a week in California. Four days were for the con, two days before the con, and two days after. For the two days before hand we went to Little Tokyo, A Japanese Museum, and Santimonica beach. It was at Santimonica Beach that I A) picked up that Kimono I wore to the dinner and B) Got a definitive answer. I CANT swim in ocean water. When I was really young I went to the Pacific ocean , and I remembered breaking out. I went back, and it happened again. Doesn't that suck?? :(
Day one of the con: I remember things in sort'of a blur. So here they are that way! I signed up, and then asked if I could help. I was supposed to be volunteering after all! But everyone was really busy. All I really got to do was fetch some soda from the con suite. Greg popped in at one point while I was sitting on that couch near the gift shop. He waved and said hi, and I replied. After he left my friend JT, it was her first time to the Gathering, looked at me like,"who was that guy?". My third Gathering, and the third time I have been able to turn to a traveling companion and say, "Oh him? That was just Greg Weisman." *L* I never get tired of the reaction!
The next thing I remember I was setting up my sketches in the art room. Crispin Freeman was there with Izobel. One of my favorite memories for this con then occurred. There was just something about hearing Crispin explain to someone the story of Gargoyles that made me laugh. It was so great.
Right before opening ceremonies, Bill Fagerbakke came over after work to do some signing. He was so great! I got to hug him a lot longer then I had planned since Kaioto couldn't seem to figure out my complicated instruction of, "push the button". Thom and Greg arrived around that time, and I got my first G01 hug from Thom!*beams* *L*
Opening ceremonies. Hey what can I say that hasn't been said? I suppose I was just as eager as everyone else to find out what Thom had under his shirt! *L* I was fiddling with my tape recorder when my name was called. *sits trying to figure out what to type next* Geez. I'm still in shock. I seriously don't remember much exactly what happened. I remember getting my second hug though! Yea! Afterward a friend of mine said she thought he gave me a kiss on the cheek. Can anyone verify this? I was in lala land:P I'm sorry I had to make everyone suffer through, quite possibly, the worst Gathering speech ever! I had no idea what to say! -_-; I suppose I could have been even more annoying if I had asked Greg who Lexington's mate was going to be. I am, however, glad that Crazy D stepped in to tell everyone I wasn't really the worse speech giver ever, just surprised. *thanks her* My friends made sure that there were lots of pics of me recieving the award.-_-; yea... *hides face* I'm not fond of the pics of me, but Marisa caught a shot of Thom and Greg that is so perfect! The looks on their faces really ARE priceless. To me anyway. They are just smiling to eachother. SO CUTE! It just slays me to remember those first Autum days when Gargoyles premiered. *seems like only yesterday..* I could have _never_ imagined getting to meet those names flashing down the screen. To find out they were such great ppl is even better!
The rest of opening ceremonies was a blast. I never get sick of Greg's videos, or stories. Do any of us? After the ceremony I got Thom to sign my hat. I had it made in a Santimonica mall. As Thom was signing my hat I recieved a quick spank from Crazy D. Geez, Day one and I could already brag 3 VA hugs, a possible kiss and a spanking from the hand that has..well spanked a lot of cool ppl;) I can't remember anything much after this so I guess I must have gone to City Walk for some food.
After some excellent Chinese food Kaioto, Marisa, JT and I ran into Crispin Freeman and Taliesin Jaffe in front of Hot Topic. Kaioto had a lengthy conversation with Taliesin while JT got yet another picture of her with Crispin.
Day Two- ..duh Oh man. I can't remember! *checks her schedual* OH YA I went to the Voice Acting Technique 1 panel. Got to see Thom, Crispin, Taliesin, Jonathan Klein and Morgan Sheppard. Wow what a group! Crispin had brought some funky software with his comp, on accident, that would let ppl in the audience do some dubbing of their own. We ran out of time, but that was so cool of him to set that all up for us! Morgan, as he told us to call him, was a blast! What a cool guy! I loved that panel. At the end I finally gave Thom the Kimba pin and pen that I had bought him, but had forgotten to give him the day before. I got my third hug for that. :)
I can't remember where I went after that. I think there was Mug-A-Guest with Thom soon after this panel. Anyway I did get to go to that, and it was great. Thom told us about his past gigs, and even though I knew from last year that he had danced in some music videos I didn't know which ones to look for. Now I do! You can all check out Janet Jackson's video "Nasty". Thom stated that there were two guys, one on each side of her. He was, as he put it, "the white guy with a spikey hair doo". Crazy D came in at some point, and gave Thom a personalized Gathering T-shirt with the excellent picture of Lex that I purchased from the Art show. I'm sorry I can't remember the artists name right now:P But your pics ruled! Greg's wife Beth, and their son Benny came in also, and Beth chatted with us for a while. After this was all over with I got my forth hug. Not long after this we were all at the Story boarding panel. TONS of guests there! Getting to see those Storyboards was awesome!! Getting to see so many ppl that worked on the show was great. Knowing that it was only a fraction was even cooler. (Was it just me, or did that sound like Master Card commercial?) A little after this I was dead tired. I don't know why. I was fine the other days. But anyway I had to go back to our hotel and pass out. We were all rooming at a Holiday Inn not far from the con hotel. I passed out for a few hours and missed the Radio Play! Well actually we came back in time for the tail end of it, but I didn't want to barge in, and be annoying. While everyone was filtering out though I got to run into Thom and Crispin again. I got my fifth hug then. My friends and I got some more pictures of them, and apparently Kaioto asked Thom if he would go out to eat with us later. He agreed. What a sweet heart! I think by then Thom probably was figuring out who Kai was. Apparently Both Greg and Thom didn't know who he was for most of the con, and poor Kai kept scaring them by shaking hands, and giving Thom that hug. Now they know who he is..yup..now he's Lexy's boyfriend *LOL*. Guess he is in the same boat with Izobel who is now referred to as, "Crispin's Girlfriend." Hey Greg, if you are reading this, Kai was the guy who wrote that report on Brooklyn. I don't know *shrugs* I never got to read it, but he told me, back when he wrote it, that you made a comment in S8 that you liked it. I don't know if you recall this though:P
Day Three- Again. I can't remember anything! Highlights would be getting to "mug" Greg, and going to the VA's Q&A. Boy was that a riot. Everyone was great! Cree Summers *SP* showed up as a surprise, and it was cool hearing her story about how she landed her first gig. Apparently her father played the voice of Doctor Claw on "Inspector Gadget". The little girl who was supposed to play the voice of Penny didn't show up so Cree was given the role, and did so well she kept it. Jeff's stories about how he got started were a hoot. I think everyone got a crazy little mental image of Chibi-Jeff driving his parents nuts with his Dizzy Duck impersonation, and I'm glad somebody asked why Duke, from "The Mighty Ducks", sounded just like Brooklyn, because that was bothering me too. *L* It was great when ppl would try to ask Jeff questions about his characters, or, "what was it like switching between voices like that?", and poor Jeff is just like , "I..I don't remember.. Did I play that character?" *L* Keith got to field a lot of questions about the differences between Voice acting and other forms of acting. Loved his cute little roar;), and I couldn't help but wonder what that panel of doctors in the adjacent room were thinking when they heard someone bellow, "I've lost everything..EVEN MY REVENGE!" I suppose I have to mention Thom's input on how Sally Richardson (is this last name correct!?) bragged to him, so he says, that the animators used her 'eh hem' back end as a model for Elisa's. I believe it was Jeff who put in something to the effect of, "Yup, those guys love doing their research." Somebody from the audience asked Keith what he would have done with his character if he had had the chance. Keith just grinned and said, "You know." "-And it wouldn't have been a dream either." Somebody from the audience also asked Keith if anything about Goliath had rubbed off onto him. Jeff, once again, interjected with something I am not even sure I can say in Ask Greg. *wonders* Oh geez..better safe then sorry! (appologizees to all who weren't there) Hey! Someone with guts can fill that part in. Afterward was the autograph signing. Everyone who had gotten to the last panel early, including myself, ended up in the back of the line. By the time we got up to the signing a lot of ppl had to book it. While Crispin was signing a poster I brought from Slayers Keith David, just three guests from me, had to leave. I probably did not make some ppl happy when I left my poster with Crispin and ran over to Keith with the poster I had brought. I don't think I have ever groveled that bad in my life *L*. "Um..Please Mr. David..Sir..could you PULEEZ sign this for me?" *LOL* He was cool about it of course. I loved watching Jeff inspect that Owen doll someone brought to get signed. I really should know her name:P He thought that thing was great! "Oh man. Hey guys look! It's the Owen doll!"
After the VA's got their chance, the writers and I think some artists came up to sign. I got that panel to sign my poster as well. It looks great! I wake up to it right near my bed:) Now the first thing the sun hits in the morning is Brynne Chandler's golden autograph of , "Jalapena!"
After the autographs my friends and I prepared for the banquet. I didn't get to sit with Thom this year *L*, but I still had a good time. My table was near enough to Thom's and Crispin's to get the jist of what was going on. Boy, *shakes head* those two! They just kept going at it. First Crispin would brag about his excellent imitation of Broadway, then Thom would pick on Crispin's shirt. It escalated until the next time I turned around Crispin was sitting in Thom's lap, and this was after I had missed Crispin planting one on Thom. *shakes her head* wow..must have been a hoot to be at one of those tables!
After the, what? SIX COURSE? meal was done I believe the art show winners were read off, and Mhyr called!off ticket numbers for raffle prizes. I'm still not quite sure how I got an award for art, but it was funny that both Kaioto, JT and myself won raffle prizes. I had to laugh when Kaioto's number was called off, and I heard Thom call from behind me saying, "So Lexy, I guess you won twice!" I figured at that point he knew who Kai was! *L*
Next was the cosplays and costume show. Not as many ppl seemed to dress up this year, but we still had some good costumes. I think I lost a good portion of my film when two of the contestants, sorry I don't know your names!, forced Thom with a net, and by fake gun point, to take his pants off. I also spent a couple shots taking pictures of our "Best Couple". IE: Thom and Crispin. A prize well earned!
After the awards were given out ,and ppl were beginning to dance, I asked Greg and Thom if they would be interested, if they could make it, in attending a party I would be having in honor of my wedding which would be taking place around the gathering of 2002. They both agreed that they would come if they could. I earned yet another hug from Thom AND a kiss that I can verify _did_ occur:D Asking Greg if he would come was pretty amusing. It took me a while before I could get up enough nerve to ask him. After I asked him he smiled at us with a surprised look and said, "What are you guys?? Like twelve?!" *L* I tried to explain that we were a bit older then that, though I am certain I sounded confused. (FYI We will be 22 and dang near 20) ^_^V Soon afterward my traveling partners and I went back to our hotel to sleep.
Day FOUR!!- I remember getting up, going to the 3x3 eyes panel and hitting closing ceremonies. After closing ceremonies my friends and I met up with Thom and we all went out to eat. We weren't sure where to go so Thom suggested a Thai place not far from the hotel. He asked us if we had a ride, and we had to admit we didn't. (We had been thinking we could go to City Walk, and just take a tran. Thom was cool about it though, and said we could just use his car.*pauses for a brief moment to remember* EEEEEEE! As most of you may imagine, I felt guilty yet strangely happy with the situation;) After apologizing like 200 times that his car was a mess, ( for those of you with cars..is that a standard thing to say before you let someone get in? It seems to be to me! *L*), Thom took us on what I like to call the "Thom Tour". I joked with him that he could have made a couple of bucks putting that one the scheduled events. He showed us where he buys his dog food, where he used to get his hair cut and where Kath Soucie used to live. As we were driving Thom mentioned that the studio where they recorded Gargoyles wasn't far, and then decided to take us there! What a sweetheart! The studio was almost empty that day, and some friendly ppl out front told Thom he could take us right on in. We got to take pictures of where the VA's stood, and see the place where Greg set up the pictures for the VA's too see. We also got to go in back and see a poster with the autographs of many who worked on the show.
Afterward we went out to eat, and had a general good time doing so. Thom was kind enough to take us back to the hotel so we could wander off to Universal studios. There you have it folks..my disjointed and rambled G2001 diary!
A few last things I should mention:
Christine Morgan- You wanted one of my pictures from the art show. I will mail that off to you if you email me with your addy:) (izzolexington3@yahoo.com)
Favorite G2001 quotes that I can actually say in Ask Greg:
"I've lost everything, EVEN MY REVENGE!"-Keith David
"Thom Adcox everybody. A man who never misses the opportunity to take off his pants."-Greg W.
"Your going to be even sorrier when those pictures are all over the Internet!"-Greg W.
"What are you guys? Like 12?"-Greg W.
"Master of advertising."-Jeff Bennet
"Did I play that guy?"-Jeff Bennet
"Mommy...what's a 'con virgin'?"-Little girl sitting behind me
"I've got something under my shiiiiiirt."-Thom A. (fallowed by)
"Well at least he didn't say he had something in his pants"-Greg W.
"He got to look!"-Keith David
"Ya right. If I had gotten to make changes Lex would have been second in command. NOT Brooklyn."-Thom
"Thank you for giving that award to Lexy. It really meant a lot to her." *Hugs Thom* -Kaioto (fallowed by)
"Who _was_ that guy?"-Greg W.
Lexy, you are such a treat. That's probably the best journal yet. Thank you. (And hey, looking young is a good thing. When you're my age, you'll be glad you look ten years younger than you are.)
Here's a brief Gathering report of my own.
FRIDAY: Arrived at Los Angeles in the afternoon. I arrived at the hotel in the middle of the Bill Faggerbakke signing, but got to the Opening Ceremonies a little late (I took a little while to find my room and put my luggage away). Fortunately, I did get to hear the whole of your presentation and see the videos. (I especially liked the "Gargoyles" video with the "Glory/Power of One" music, with its showing the camera passing over the "Gargoyles" title several times at different points.) I finally got to see the "Bad Guys" leica reel (and was definitely astonished at the bit where Matrix was shown listening to a boom box), the "Dark Ages" and "New Olympians" pitches, and the edited "Gargoyles" pilot. (I missed the MSTing of "The Gathering", though).
SATURDAY: Went to a few of the panels on writing and researching for "Gargoyles". I enjoyed hearing some of the famous stories about it in person, as well as some of the new revelations (such as the one about the cast getting trapped in a live performance of "Macbeth"; I'd definitely have liked to see that "odd little two-parter", or the sad story about the Loch Ness episode of "Team Atlantis" that will never get made).
And, of course, the big highlight in the evening was the radio play (and I agree that Crispin Freeman did a great Broadway); I enjoyed the additional bits (such as the "breathing the air" line, which I hadn't even imagined was there in the first draft, as well as the scene in the clock tower between Elisa and Jason that I'd read about before).
SUNDAY: Served as part of a panel on fanfic with Kathy, Patrick, and Taleweaver (the one shame about it being that I missed another panel about the development of "Gargoyles", which was being held at the same time). And had the Sunday dinner with you, your wife, Greg Bishansky, Patrick Toman, and Tigris Euphrates up in the Rooftop Garden (though you know that I was at your table, of course).
MONDAY: No special memories for that day, since I had to leave early to catch my plane. Oddly enough, and rather appropriately, the movie on the flight home was one entitled "Just Visiting", about a medieval knight and his peasant-squire who get transported to the modern world by a wizard's spell (certainly evocative of the gargoyles' plight).
MINOR NOTE: Matrix wasn't simply listening to that boombox, his hand WAS the boombox.
Todd, can't emphasize enough how great it was to meet you. I'm glad you came and I hope you had a good time. Your comments here are always insightful, and your help here at ASK GREG and on all those research questions I had on the Timeline are/were invaluable.
Thanks again. I hope the trip was worthwhile for you.
REFLECTIONS ON GATHERING 2001
By Shannon (Shan) Muir
MONDAY
Monday Kevin and I did breakfast at Carl's Jr. at 9AM and showed up in decent time before the ROUGHNECKS panel. Got a brief bit of time to say "hi" to Dave Hartman and Jay Oliva, both of whom I worked with on the EXTREME GHOSTBUSTERS series. Before the Q&A, the episode of ROUGHNECKS screened where they go to scatter Razak's ashes… Greg, did you run this because I told you during our Suite101 interview that I cry every time that episode plays? (I doubt that's the only reason but it sprung to mind…) Speaking of Suite101, Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky sat a few seats over from me and recognized who I was. Greg, thanks for your compliments. Especially after not finding a voice in the panel Sunday, you really made my day. Thank you.
Though I knew most of the ROUGHNECKS personnel and had heard some of these stories at San Diego Comic-Con the prior summer, it's always a joy seeing those folks. I regret I didn't bring my Eduardo figurine (still MIB) from EXTREME GHOSTBUSTERS for Rino (ROUGHNECKS' Johnny Rico) to sign; Rino was Eduardo and Jason Marsden (Pvt. Brutto in ROUGHNECKS) played Garrett. But it wasn't clear there'd be a signing period at this panel, not after the separate Voice Actors panel the day before.
Then we went out to lunch… and also did some shopping at Sam Goody and the comic shop on the CityWalk. Kevin owed me some money for buying his Gathering T-shirt (beautiful shirts Aimee and Greg Guler!), plus Sunday breakfast, so he got me a VOLTRON tee and the videotape of SLAYERS: THE MOTION PICTURE - can't afford DVD yet. I know Crispin's not in this movie, but I was looking for a self-contained introduction to the concept. I want to see more, and definitely with Crispin!
Got back in time for Closing Ceremonies, and then off to the car. We headed to Al's Deli on Ventura Blvd. for lunch, and afterwards go home and do drudgery things like wash the laundry so I could be ready for work the next day.
All in all, it really was a good time. And a special thing I'd like to share with Greg and everyone else. I moved to Los Angeles in 1996 from a town of 8,000 people and three stoplights, determined to make it in this town and in animation. A promise I made myself was that if I survived five years in Los Angeles, on that day (or the nearest weekend) I would throw a party and do something really special to celebrate.
My five year mark in Los Angeles was June 20, 2001… the Wednesday before the Gathering. So, indirectly, you folks threw me that memorable event and never knew it.
Thank you - Greg, the guests, the staff, the volunteers, and the fans -- for an event to remember.
Shan - I ran "Funeral for a Friend" because it's my favorite episode and because I'm vain. But I'm glad you like it too.
And I'm VERY glad we could throw that party for you and for all the fans.
(It is particularly gratifying to have former students in attendance -- Zach and Carol, I'm talking to you too.)
THANKS
REFLECTIONS ON GATHERING 2001
By Shannon (Shan) Muir
SUNDAY
The big morning, the one I'd been raising my courage for over the last two days. The panel. I'd been asked to be part of a panel on moving from Fan to Pro meeting at 10AM. So I wouldn't stress over being late, Kevin and I had the Sunday buffet breakfast at the Sheraton's restaurant. A wonderful selection, pretty decent. Unfortunately (for him) this meant Kevin having to arrive like 8:30AM this time. The other reason I wanted Sunday buffet was to eat very well, bypass lunch (but be sure to have water for medication), and then eat dinner at the banquet since that was a relatively early dinner. I cannot stress how much of a mistake that was.
People started arriving for our panel. I met Taleweaver (Rashaan Footman), a worthy last-minute addition. I think having someone well-known in fandom on the quest for a pro fiction sale was a much needed voice and I am glad for the opportunity to have met him. Karine (aka Kanthara) and Aimee showed up to voice the artists, and Christine arrived. Christine got things underway with Con announcements, even though I'd agreed to try to serve as moderator. In a way, we tried to stall for the still absent Meredith, but even after Christine finished Meredith still wasn't there. So starting with Aimee, everyone introduced themselves - and Meredith entered right on cue! We couldn't have planned that better. In the end, I didn't talk much on the panel, mainly because all the listeners were either artists or prose/poetry writers. There wasn't too much a scriptwriter/journalistic writer/animation production person could offer that crowd. Sometimes it goes like that. But I'm content with the knowledge if someone had been interested and showed up, I would have been there for them.
Afterwards, we headed for the Series Production panel. Again, the sheer amount of professionals available to listen to made this worthwhile! Some of those folks I'd met through Greg's class, and have even been to Advantage Audio where they do the effects and sound mixing, but other people were totally new to me. A few more of the faces were new to Kevin, but he'd come with me on the trip to Advantage Audio so we were both familiar with those guys. Names are starting to run together at the moment or I'd actually name them…
Then came the Voice Actors Q&A. I can't pin how far back my interest in voice acting goes, I think one of the most early and significant ones was when I saw Sue Blu guesting on a SIMON & SIMON rerun and realized "hey that's Stormer from JEM!" Or maybe it was Michael Bell's guest stint on MASH. Anyway, once I was conscious that on screen actors could also be behind the moving drawings, I've always wanted to identify who's who. Used to be very good, but I think I'm slipping, especially with talented people like Jeff Bennett who can sound like practically anyone. Thom Adcox was the only one I'd seen in person before, Cree I'd seen on TV in ATLANTIS interviews and in Lenny Kravitz's VH1 BEHIND THE MUSIC (though I didn't know it was her, I wondered about the name similarity though. I don't think she talked on camera) because he produced her music CD. I really enjoyed hearing their anecdotes of working on GARGOYLES and in the business. I'm the one who finally mustered the courage to ask the question on dubbing, which gave Crispin Freeman - who I was NOT familiar with prior to the GATHERING - a chance to shine at what was pretty much a GARGOYLES-centric panel. I'm really, really impressed with him. I understand Izobel is to thank for hooking him up at the event? Whoever, a big round of thanks.
Then we decided to find out where the Roof Garden Ballroom was, because we didn't have anything for the actors to sign. We thought we might get dropped outside a set of doors and at least know we knew where the right place was. Kevin and I certainly didn't mean to actually be IN it that early. So, after trying not to be tempted by the incredible view, we went downstairs ASAP.
We went back and sat in the back of the big room, where the Charity Auction got underway on one side and crew signings on the other. Watched the first of the Carl Johnson CDs go for well over $100, the invite to a TEAM ATLANTIS voice record taken at over $200 (by one of my former classmates, it turned out), but really surprised at how low most of the other stuff went. Not that I know what it was all worth, but it just seemed strange. After a while, the crew signings wound down and then we decided to head out towards the dinner though the auction was running behind.
So we went back to the Ballroom and waited for over half an hour, since the banquet had been delayed. But we figured a lot of people wouldn't know and would show up early too, which they did. Now that "no lunch" mistake started catching up to me, I was just short of doubling over in pain. Dinner was fair for a hotel, I've had worse, though. A funny part was when I got up to go to the restroom, and came back to the pasta. Not remembering the full menu I asked Kevin, "This isn't the main course is it?" He said yes, I'm not sure if he meant it as a joke (I have a horrid time telling joke from serious, and I grew up with a Dad and Grandfather who loved to joke). And I believed him, shaking my head because I have seen hotels do worse. So I was pleasantly surprised when the main course did show up! The Sheraton did make good desserts though. I wonder how it stacked up to other banquets.
Myhr and the awards section proved OK but not terribly interesting. I had no familiarity with the fan fiction, but had at least seen the art show. No idea how I missed the World Map everyone's raving about though. Sounds like that one was a sight to see!
My biggest regret was not being in any shape to stay for the Masquerade/Cosplay/Dance. Several weeks before (not with pneumonia like Greg, something different) I'd had problems related to my medical condition and too worn out to stay. Despite the fact I'd chided Kevin for weeks about dragging him on the dance floor, that was not to be. I'd also wanted to encourage him to dress him up as Owen, which would NOT have been hard. The way he dressed at the Gathering (polo shirt and slacks) is casual for him; let's put it this way, even Kevin jokes of being "born in a suit." Unfortunately, that's all relegated to what might have been.
Sorry you missed the masq...
REFLECTIONS ON GATHERING 2001
By Shannon (Shan) Muir
SATURDAY
Kevin met me at 9AM the next morning at Carl's Jr. for breakfast. We made it in time for the Series Development panel, which we were both looking forward to. I hated the fact Christine's reading was at the same time, since I wanted to meet her. But writing for animation is my first passion and Kevin would love to work in development, so the Development panel was the obvious choice. A lot of what Greg discussed had come up in my class, but it was all new to Kevin and I also got to hear from people such as Greg Guler who had not been guests to our class.
Next we stayed for Writing for TV Animation. In hindsight, I wish I'd gone to Voice Acting Techniques (though granted it was Part Two!) and left Kevin on his own, especially after hearing about Crispin's ADR workshop. I would have LOVED that! Kevin got the benefit of hearing Gary Sperling and Michael Reaves' thoughts and views on the craft, which were very nice and all, but I'd heard Gary in my class and Michael I've run across elsewhere. So there really wasn't much new here for me.
The next panel was phenomenal… Writing for Gargoyles. The multi-year attendees probably have heard all the stories, and Greg had told some in class, but to have the input and interjections of so many of the writers, story editors, and staff who worked on the show made it all the more fun. And all of it was new to Kevin, so most of my joy came from his reactions.
Lunch came next. Unfortunately for me, I have a medical condition that requires me to take medication on a regular schedule. So we opted out of Michael Reaves' book reading and the Music for Animation panel (I would have found this interesting) to eat. So we went back to the CityWalk - back to Jerry's but this time for sandwiches.
We got back in time for the Research panel with Tuppence, Monique, Michael, and Lydia Marano. Finally I met up with Christine Morgan beforehand and introduced myself, promised to bring my books on Sunday to have her sign them… they were back at the apartment! I learned a lot about how much more difficult research was for the staff back then (pre-proliferation of the Internet), and how they matched locations and story ideas for the World Tour (cards on a large corkboard). Afterwards, I managed to meet Lydia Marano, whose work I knew from ROUGHNECKS before having seen all of GARGOYLES, but had never run across before at any other event. I learned she owns a bookstore in the San Fernando Valley, and struck me as a strong and incredible person.
Having had a late lunch, there was no point in dinner so early. And, since we weren't staying at the hotels, had nowhere to go crash. I believe this was when we checked out the Art Show. I enjoyed so much of the art, amazed at the ways the fandom artists express their interest in GARGOYLES in so many ways. I'm not sure what Kevin thought, I think overall he liked it but since he is a Narrative Illustrator he may have a more critical eye. I didn't ask.
We STILL had time to kill. Kevin wanted to go outside for a bit so we went to sit on the far side of the pool outside the gate - passing Jordan, W. Morgan Sheppard, and Greg having dinner but being courteous enough not to interrupt. We sat by the pool and talked until the chlorine started getting to me and we headed back in and to the lobby (where we wound up sitting ABOVE same aforementioned dinner). In retrospect, I have no idea why we didn't go up to the Con Suite. My only thought is when we'd gone up before, we'd been escorted by staff and just felt awkward going up unaccompanied. We're innately shy.
Anyway, we stayed for the Radio Play at 7 PM. It was the original script version of "Hunter's Moon Part Three." Frankly, after hearing about some of the things that have been debuted at the Gathering, I was let down. That said, I feel a GARGOYLES-centered Radio Play was COMPLETELY appropriate for the fifth anniversary radio play and was VERY well-performed. I guess it's because I've written and worked in production and know cut scenes are a reality. Maybe I'm just jaded. In that respect, maybe it's good I wasn't cast.
Afterwards, still being fairly early, we took the tram back up to CityWalk and had dinner at Tony Roma's. Saw Christine and her daughter Becca Morgan go out as we came in. The waiter was slow but the ribs ruled! Another exciting day came to a close. Kevin dropped me off at my apartment (about 15 minutes away) then drove back home (an additional 30 minutes or so). What a trooper. I love him.
Glad you enjoyed the panels...
(I don't really have anything to add of course, I'm just glad to read what everyone did.)
REFLECTIONS ON GATHERING 2001
By Shannon (Shan) Muir
I'm a first-time Gathering attendee who played the roles of both attendee and panelist, who also lived locally and didn't stay in a hotel, hoping I can give some kind of useful perspective to Greg and others. I also tend to ramble and like asides, hopefully I've kept both to a minimum.
FRIDAY
My boyfriend Kevin Paul Shaw Broden and I showed up around 11 Friday. Everyone was gathered around a large screen TV opposite the registration desk watching "Enter Macbeth," though I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't recognize it at first. Hadn't seen GARGOYLES on anything larger than maybe a 15" inch screen to that point. (I've only been a real fan since 2000, though I saw a smattering of episodes before then, too busy in college). Anyway, we got our tags and gorgeous shirts and, social butterflies we are (not!), took the tram to CityWalk for a meal instead of meeting people. Grabbed a brunch at Jerry's Deli.
We didn't attend either of the noon panels. Mainly because Kevin knew I wanted to audition for the radio play and we didn't want to rudely leave in the middle of the contest readings, which is where we would have gone. So that's when we scoped out the Dealers' Room and I briefly chatted with Tim Morgan. Saw Christine's books but didn't pick them up (all three) until later that day. That was all I bought, frankly I could barely afford to come to the Gathering and the banquet. Then right at 1:30 I was one of the first six in line for the auditions. Came in to see Greg and Thom (who I'd met when taking a screenwriting class from Greg at UCLA), and also Jordan who was new to me. Took a shot at Elisa, mainly because it was the new "side" to me. We'd done mock auditions in the class and I had done Demona, and frankly - sorry Greg - I've never liked the Angela "side." Elisa's "side" hadn't been a choice then. But mic-trained me got too much into what I was doing and forgot to project at one point. In the end I wasn't cast, but at least I got to try the experience again with new material.
Having gotten out much earlier than planned, I picked up Christine's books and then we went to Meredith Patterson's 3PM reading. Very good but also very graphic, a little above my poor weak tolerance level (I can't, sadly, watch 3x3 EYES either for similar reasons. It sucks.). Meredith noticed, but took it all in stride - it means she did an effective job, so that's a compliment! Afterwards, I introduced myself and Meredith escorted Kevin and I to the Con Suite where we met the Wittenbergs, Wingless, and some others whose names I didn't catch. After Greg, Thom, and Jordan arrived to discuss casting, we left and eventually had a light dinner of pizza.
Got back in time to see the Opening Ceremonies, actually a little earlier. Talked briefly to my friend Monique Beatty - we used to work together at Sony Animation - and she introduced me to Tuppence McIntyre, the Deputy DA who had helped Greg with his Scottish research. I'm really glad Tuppence in particular took the time to come out. Monique introduced Kevin to Tuppence as Kevin Paul Shaw Broden, then looked at his name tag and saw only the "Kevin Broden." It was just a funny moment as everyone who knows him in the industry knows him as "the man with too many names," as one fairly well known writer dubbed him. Gathering Staff, no worries, we figure it was just the software limitations even though he put all four names. Heck, ComiCon always files him under Shaw, thinking he has two last names.
At Opening Ceremonies, I recognized most of the folks, but it was neat getting to see many of the voice actors for the first time (especially Bill Faggerbake; he voiced Alan on the JUMANJI series I worked on and I always wondered what he was like in person). I'd previously seen most of the tapes Greg showed in our class, but the GARGOYLES "preview reel", as were the pitches for the spinoffs (which was the most fun tape of the evening, BTW). The BAD GUYS leica reel made far more sense, since I didn't really those characters the first time I saw it. It like an "OK" action-adventure series on the surface with lots of potential before, but now that I understand who the characters are, it's really fun.
Kevin and I bailed for the evening after that. Not that events like "MYST"ing GARGOYLES wouldn't have been interesting, but I needed to grab something for dinner at that point rather desperately and it was easier just to call it a night and hit the Carl's Jer. a block from my apartment.
So Kevin dropped me off and headed home to Fullerton. (He didn't crash at my place overnight for complicated reasons outside of the scope of this journal… though it would have arguably been easier if he could have!)
Keep those reports coming, Shan.
I woke up and showered (wow, just like every other morning ;), and came down, and was sad. Things were being cleared out and that was the sign that the Con was practically over. I chatted with Montana Joe Lawson briefly before the next panel started.
My roommate Laura and I attended the Starship Troopers panel, and I watched an episode (before the panel started) for the first time ever... it was shown for only a few days in New York apparantly and in a horrible timeslot so I missed it. I did like what I saw, and having only seen one episode, I still found the panel interesting and entertaining.
I next had to take a journey to the Post Office which went on even longer than I anticipated and missed a panel I myself was supposed to sit on. I bought a dagger in the Dealer's Room the previous day, and since I only had carry-on luggage, I knew I'd get in trouble if I tried to bring it on the plane, and the post-office near by took forever to get the thing actually mailed.
I came back, to find out when I should leave for LAX, since my plane was leaving at 3PM, and I learned I had to leave before the closing ceremonies. I found you and said good-bye, and said good-bye to Jen and thanked her for the great weekend before my roomates and I left and dropped me off at the gate to the airport, where I had a pleasant flight home. Read the scripts I bought at the auction and watched this movie that starred Freddie Prince Jr and involved fashion models and an episode of Third Rock from the Sun on the plane before landing at 11:30 PM and talking non-stop about the con.
It was a great weekend, and I made some great friends and met some great new people. I'd like to thank you for being so great at the con, and putting up with my company for longer than you had to at previous Gatherings ;)
It was a pleasure Greg, and I look forward to seeing you next summer.
Greg, it was a pleasure seeing you again as well. Thanks.
Oie, i didn't keep a journal, so I have to go from memory.
Day 1:
I left Houston at around eight, tired from lack of sleep and hungry from hurrying to airport and only eating a quick cup of cerial. During the flight they served these nasty snacks that were really greasy; they call it sausage, I call it a waste of money. The flight took about three to four hours; I slept most of the away. I arrived in LA upset due to two factors: 1. On the way, I looked down at all the sand and desert, and out of nowhere all these ontological ramblings poured into my head. Did I have paper? No. Could I even write anything legible on a bumpy airplane? No. So there went a slew of ontological and time-continuum ideas right out the window. I shrugged it off and went on. 2). In LA, I got stopped by some Harr Kreshna guy who gave me this book to read about his religion. I thought, "cool" and tried leave; but he stopped me and hounded me for money. After repeatedly telling him no, he took the book back and gave me a pamphlet instead. JERK, I thought. I shrugged it off and went on.
Well, I got to the hotel--after almost diying (is that spelled right?) on the way there because of the driver who kept telling all the passengers stories about his Fatherland (Germany) and whole bunch of other stuff I didn't care for while he was NOT paying attention to the road--and found my friend Ryan from Dallas.
Well, because of this mix-up with our rooms, they wouldn't give us the keys, so I had to go find the guy whose name the room was under (Sean "Brooklyn X" Donagher) so he could prove to the clerk that we were supposed to be in the room. We decided to get our badges for the Gathering first, and, to our surprise, Sean was volunteering to give out the badges. He got us our keys, and we went down (not up where everyone else was) to our room.
After throwing everything on the floor, I wasted no time in blowing my money on junk I really don't need (cards, a CD, a place mat, a puzzle, this wierd french game with a marble, and a color print of Gabriel).
After throwing all that with my other crap I went back to audition for the radio play. I had no idea what I was supposed to do, and so I was really panicky. Of course, all the ontological mumbo-jumbo came flooding back in like burst damn...and I was reading the script, second in line--what luck. After skimming the script, I get called in. As soon as I walk in, I see Greg and start thinking, "If my being is met with bad-faith---oh crap, it's Greg Weisman, uumumum--but then my being is thus permeable to the I-it--sh*t, who am I gonna' read---oh crap, it's Thom Adcox, uhuhuhuh--quick, sit down!!" After sitting down, I was told to stand-up.
"OK, who are you going to read for us?" Greg asked. Sh*t, you didn't even decide who to read. Goliath--no. Brooklyn--maybe. Elisa--ha! Xanatos--no. Goliath--no. Xanatos--might as well.
So I read; I thought it went fairly well.
"Uh, do you think you could read that first paragraph again," Geg asked me, "except louder this time?"
"Uhhh, yeah, I guess." Damn him! [No offence, Greg:)] I read louder.
"Stop. You need to project." I read even louder. "Project!" Ah! Damnit, I bet that was too loud, I thought.
I finished. I felt better after barking like a dog and wimping out of my cheesy Celebrity Jeopardy Sean Connery impression.
The rest of the day went by like a flash. All I remember is getting Fabberbakke's autograph on my Gargoyles poster, some of the opening ceremonies, wondering when Yama became a bad guy, being happy at being an understudy, working-out at their crappy gym, and hating Bush for not putting a price cap in California since I had to pay 2.50 per night for electricity. I didn't talk to anyone since I really didn't know anyone; so I mostly just kept to myself, thinking, "So that's what you look like," anytime I saw someone's name I recognized off the 'Net.
I read a little bit of The Fall that night and decided I was just too tired to read any; so I went to bed, eager to jump into the next days activities.
There's almost no way under those circumstances that you could have been TOO loud.
Yama's paying for a mistake he made by the way. The original title of Bad Guys was "The Redemption Squad". I was told that sounded too religious and not catchy enough. The execs at Disney wanted to call the show "Bad Boys". I refused. Bad Guys seemed like a good compromise.
Gathering Journal
Day 3
I got up and showered and quickly rushed down to your Mug-A-Guest. It was interesting hearing how you got your start at DC Comics (feels the urge to track down old Captain Atom issues), and finally learning how you ended up writing a JEM episode of all things. I seem to recall also answering a few questions for you when someone there asked about 2198, but I forget if I did.
After that, I went to the Series Production panel, and had fun there, it was great to see all the character models out and after it was over, I asked Frank "I don't suppose any of this is for sale", he said no of course, but he later let me make a photocopy of this erotic picture of Demona that he drew, and I never stopped thanking him the rest of the time he was there.
I went to lunch then and came back just before the Voice Actors panel. My key to my room wasn't working and I was having it replaced, and when that was done, in came Elisa Gabrielli, who was looking for the panel. I escorted her down and made some small talk with her on the way.
The Panel was fun and I was the one who asked you to do the "nice mask" line. Sorry, just seemed funny at the time.
After it was over I ran back upstairs and got my Gathering calendar to be autographed, and ran back down and got at the back of the line as Cree Summer was leaving, she was nice enough to sign my calendar for me, and have a brief conversation. As we got in, Keith David left. I was a little disappointed, but I got the chance to meet him last summer when he performed "A Winter's Tale", and I wanted to see if their was a chance that he remembered me. But I understood his reasons for leaving early and respected them.
Next came the auction. I had set my eyes on the Art Bible that had everyone's autograph, but couldn't afford it. I ended up buying a copy of the "Hunter's Moon" Radio Play script, the script for "The Journey" (like the scene between Matt and Chavez in it btw), and the print of the Eyrie Building, which I then had signed by Frank, and attempted to bribe him to send me a copy of the Art Bible. Frank's a cool guy and Siryn and I had a nice conversation with him.
Next came the Awards Banquet, which I quickly went to after deposoting my Auction Bounty in my room, and ended up sitting at a table with Noel, Todd, Patrick and of course you and Beth, and a couple of other people who's names unfortunatly escape me right now. The food was good, and the desert was better, but you know this part, you were at the table. And yes, the antics of Thom and Crispin were hilarious.
The Masquerade was great, and I wish I entered. I was dressed as David Xanatos, and everyone told me I looked great, and that if I dropped some weight, I'd be the spitting image. The other costumes were great, Jen was a very sexy Fox, Alex and Batya's Cosplay was hilarious, Aaron and Mara's Fox and David were also great. The whole thing was great. I wish I entered though.
After that was over, I went back to my room and crashed.
Home stretch....
Hmm, here's my Gathering Journal
Day 1
Well, having graduated the previous day, I thought the Gathering was the perfect way to celebrate. I loved the timing of the con. The night before I left (after the graduation ceremony) I had a big Chinese dinner and felt quite sick the next morning, but I got up and came anyway, and thankfully had recovered before I got on the plane.
I landed safely and quickly found a good cheap shuttle to take me to the hotel. When I arrived, I saw you and Thom going into the hotel, and I was at first quite shy but then I just told myself to go up to you and reintroduce myself, and I'm glad I did.
I went down to the audition for the Radio Play, and read for Xanatos, and quickly learned to project my voice during it. I personally thought I sucked, but in hindsight I should have read for some of the other characters, and I later realized I could do a good Scottish accent. Oh well, there's always next year.
I attended a few panels and met and made some new friends and sat down for the Opening Ceremonies, which were quite fun. And don't worry about being clumsy with Ed Asner's letter, I've made even sillier mistakes than that in my time. It was fun to see the pitches and promo again, as well as the Leica... how much would I have to bribe you for copies of those??? Just kidding ;)
I went up to City Walk to eat dinner, or as I liked to call it... "the world's biggest tourist trap". And got charged $10 for two slices of pizza and a soda. The food was good though.
I came back and caught the end of "Awakening" and sat down for the MSTing of "The Gathering" and you were standing next to me through the whole thing, and it was funny being one of only a couple of people who knew you were in there.
I finally found my roomates; Chris, Laura and Rebecca (who played Bronx in the Radio Play)... all extremely cool people btw, and went to sleep.
So far so good...
My own Gathering Diary? Well, I already bubbled about a couple things in my first post on the subject back on June 27. But re-reading it, I noticed something I forgot: The Radio Play.
When I went up to audition for that on Friday, I felt about ready to jump out of my skin. I was that nervous and I don't even know why--maybe just the fact that I was seeing you and Thom for the first time right there. Anyway, I read for Xanatos--I felt I did all right, but that I could have done better. Then we all forgot I had to do a Scottish accent and dog bark, so I had to come back in again after someone else (what's surprising about this was that after my first audition I didn't want to leave the hallway for some reason...just weird [or perhaps Wyrd?]).
The only thing I really remember about the second time around, was asking, "Big dog or little dog?" And I almost felt like singing when I found I had been cast.
The next day I pretty much followed you around, since you were at every panel I wanted to attend. The Voice Acting one was great fun--Morgan Shepperd (hope I spelled that right) was a great guy (and a real hoot!). Doing the readings were fun, and I enjoyed "auditioning" as Brooklyn. I just wish I could have deepened my voice more when I was Goliath in the MIA scene. And on the subject of wishes, I would have liked to have tried my hand at anime dubbing. But I digress.
Radio Play Rehearsals: Yeah, they went quicker than I expected, too. I was surprised (and a bit delighted) that we were doing HUNTER'S MOON PART 3, and even more astounded that I had landed Matt Bluestone. I mean it's just like, "Wow, I'm a major supporting character!" Looking over everything I've written so far I feel like I'm giving myself an ego trip. Ah well, the Gathering comes but once a year.
Anyway, it was after this point that I (finally) formally introduced myself to you. I was actually surprised that you recognized my 'Net name, and glad for the chance to speak with you outside of a panel/rehearsal setting.
The Radio Play itself was a wonderful experience. I swear, rarely have I gotten such satisfaction from a line reading as when I gave some of Bluestone's lines, a particular favorit being "Hold your fire! That's an order."
I thought the rest of the cast did a great job too. Standouts being of course Zehra's Elisa, Jen's Demona, and Crispan's Faggerbakke, but also Lanny's Goliath, Jordan's Jason, Mr. Sheppherd's Hudson, and...who played Lexington again? ;) But everyone in the cast--they were all a GREAT cast.
I just want to thank you for the opportunity to have been in this little production--one of the highlights of the con (but not the only one!).
Thank you, Blaise. And welcome to the Gathering Players. A storied ensemble with years of history behind it. Hope to see you again at future cons. But remember. Once a player, always a player.
My Gathering Journal
Day 2
I woke up, took a shower and went down stairs to sign up for the Mug-A-Guest, and was the first person to sign up to mug you. I noticed a lot of people got there early and Jeff Bennet filled up right away. I had this Apple Muffin for breakfast and went to the first panel, which was the Series Development panel. Unfortunatly I didn't have my schedual with me, and missed the Brynne Chandler Mug-A-Guest I signed up for, and I regret that.
That was a fun panel, and it was great to meet Tad Stones, someone who's work I admired for a long time. A lot of great stories were told, and after the panel I had to ask him the origin of the second Negaduck... it was interesting to discover that they're both the same character. I had an Evil Emperor Zurg question for him also, but forgot about it at the time.
Next came the Writing for TV Animation panel, which was great cause I got to meet Michael Reaves, who has been one of my favorite writers for ages. Learned a lot about the business, and I really hope we can get him to another Gathering.
Next I went to the Writing for Gargoyles panel, which I enjoyed immensly. it was great getting to meet the rest of the Writing Staff, and hearing about their experiences on the show, and they were all a pleasure. I hope we can get all of them back also.
I wondered around for a while and ended up in the Art Room chatting with friends like Aaron and Mara, Josh, and a lot of other people. I met your wife and kids for the first time in front of Erin's art. I encouraged her to keep drawing, cause I think she has some real talent. Her art was very cute as well. You have a wonderful family there Greg.
I went up to dinner later and had Chinese food, then we realized the time and hurried back just in time for the Radio Play. I really enjoyed it, and "Hunter's Moon" was always one of my favorites. I really regreted not trying a Scottish accent at the audition, cause now I think I could have been a great Canmore.
After the Radio Play, I went and watched some 3x3 Eyes for the first time, and now I am actively searching for the set. I'm having trouble finding it though.
I went up to my room and I forget what I did then, I think I watched a "Fraiser" re-run before my roommates came back, and we stayed up later just talking before we hit the sack
I do have a great family. Thanks for noticing.
I must confess that one thing that surprises me a little about Demona is how long it took her to realize the truth about Thailog. After all, we're dealing here with a gargoyle who prides herself on not trusting anyone, who's utterly and thoroughly suspicious about everyone. And Thailog strikes me as being about as thoroughly untrustworthy as they come. But the interesting thing is that Demona doesn't seem to suspect that Thailog is an unreliable ally until he finally comes out and says it in "The Reckoning" with his "I've decided to: a) kill your daughter, and b) dump you in favor of a clone that I made of you, who, by the way, is also a part-clone of Elisa." Of course, the guy is thoroughly cunning (I particularly noted how, in "Sanctuary", he cleverly drew attention away from himself after Macbeth blasts his way to freedom with the laser gun that Thailog slipped him by shouting at Demona "Didn't you search him?"), and as Macbeth himself admitted when Angela raised the same question at the end of "Sanctuary", love can be blind. But I do find it intriguing that Demona was so thoroughly duped by Thailog for so long (though it has a certain appropriateness to it).
I find it appropriate to. Indicative of her desire to be with someone who she could believe shared her worldview. (It has little to do with Thailog personally, I think -- and more to do with his resemblence to Goliath and yet the obvious contrast in his personality.)
But my question to you is what would you think could have possibly given Thailog away to Demona, before he was ready to drop his facade?
hi Greg!
i recieved my prize in the mail, and needless to say i'm thrilled with it! i'm a Geography major and it was extremly interesting to me to learn more about the less known clans, both biologically, socially and culturally. i liked to see how the clans we have known had evolved to what they are in 2198. very very cool!!!
and hey, i also got your autograph! LOL
one question, i think i probably am ok since you never said anything, but is it ok to reveal things said in the prize in here or at the Comment Room? i wouldn't want to get you in trouble like the whole Fiona Canmore thing did... or do you just not want me to say some of these things to everyone? again, ifigure i'm ok since you didn't say to kep these a secret, but just want to check!
thanx again! great prize!!
Thanks for checking. We've already long ago had this discussion though. I think you know the parameters I've set.
And I'm very glad you liked the prize.
Dear Greg.....
This is a respond to one of your ramblings. You asked:
'Is there anyone out there for whom City of Stone was your first Gargoyle experience? If so, I'd love to hear from you. Did you have a clue as to what was going on?'
Well I was getting my Dad to watch it with me for the first time. And throughout the whole thing he was asking me many question, most of them pointless like do all Gargoyles have tails? And kept on me about names. (Hudson right, nothing is real to humans till they have names.) So yes even with the flashbacks, "Previously" segment, and a hard core garg fan, he was very confused. I think next time I try to get him into Gargoyles I'll start at the beginning.
Also wanted say that it is really cool how you answer all these question. (I have been to the Archives.) It must take alot of time! And you even put up with the not so great questions! I just wanted to say thanks!
You're welcome. Too bad about your dad. I was afraid of that. Did it at least intrigue him enough to make him want to see more? Or did the confusion just alienate him from the series?
Im very sorry if this was asked before, but looking through the archives I can't even begind to thing of what category it might be in.
You know a lot of us have created our own characters and our own stories. How do you feel about that?
Im very posessive. I would say "mine! leave it alone!" That's why I refuse to publish anything with my own character (myself I mean, not just a random character I created) in it, for fear that someone would role play as her or write about her in a way I didn't like.
As I've said before, I have mixed feelings about fanfiction. On one level it's very gratifying that the series inspired so many people to create their own stories. And I know that all this fanfiction helps to keep the property alive for everyone.
But a part of me is territorial. And particularly gets annoyed when people who've written fiction say, I like my version better. On one level, I can't begrudge it. On another, I do have that impulse to say, "Hey, create your own universe then."
I exist on many levels mentally on this and many other points.
you asked for gathering journals. here ya go!
Gatheirng 2001
http://www.coloden.com/isle/g01.html
Gathering 2000
http://www.coloden.com/isle/g2k.html
Thanks.
Check 'em out, people. Fun stuff.
Another word about "Gargoyles 2198". I will state here that the part about the series concept that intrigues me the most actually isn't so much the "main plot" (the Space-Spawn occupation, Samson's resistance movement, etc.) or even the general potential for various 22nd century adventures. What makes me most interested in this projected spin-off is that it offers the best hope, of any of the cycles in your Master Plan, of exploring the issue of, what I'll call for lack of a better term, "peacetime" human-gargoyle relations.
What I mean by that is this. It's obvious enough to me that, once humans become aware that gargoyles are an intelligent race, and when they reach the point where they'd be living alongside them with a certain degree of tolerance of their existence (as in, after the UN passes the "Gargoyle Minority Protection Act"), there'd inevitably enough be a lot of interestingly complicated circumstances. Because the big difference between gargoyles and "conventional" minority groups is that gargoyles aren't part of the human race. They're a non-human species with a unique biology and culture. So that would lead to situations between the two races where there would be no real precedence, situations different from those of conventional race relations of the sort that we face today. The gargoyles aren't human, but an involuntarily nocturnal species, and an autonomous one at that, yet living (for the most part) in the middle of human nation-states (and, in at least two cases, major human cities). So there's a definite recipe for complication from the start.
Of course, once the New Olympians reveal themselves to the world, human will get some experience in dealing with a non-human race (well, in this case, partly human). But New Olympus will be easy by comparison, given that it's a sovereign state; dealings with the New Olympians would most likely be a "simple" case of international diplomacy (if international diplomacy with a nation-state populated by centaurs, minotaurs, sphinxes, and other beings from classical mythology). But the gargoyles are actually secretly living amidst humans, with the "biggie" clan (in the sense that it's the one that "Gargoyles" focused on) actually living right in New York. So there'd be a whole can of worms about where gargoyles fit in with human law, human government, and so on. And that could clearly lead to a lot of interesting stories.
It's equally clear that that wouldn't be happening to the gargoyles in the present day, at least for a while (given that nearly everybody still think of them simply as monsters; as I recall you mentioned here, the big problem with Goliath's trial would be simply giving him a trial in the first place); so obviously the necessary setting for such stories would have to be "Gargoyles 2198". Of course, the fact that the Space-Spawn will be conquering the Earth in the first episode would make the issue much more complicated, but I imagine that it'd still be fertile ground for a lot of interesting situations. At any rate, that's probably what intrigues me the most about "Gargoyles 2198". Seeing how humans solve the problem of sharing their planet with a non-human intelligent race living among them.
All this stuff interests me too, of course.
ok, i know you've said that the English gargs are pretty much limited to what we saw in "MIA", but are there smaller differences in different English gargs. i mean, no two gargoyles ever look totally alike, right? but in a large English garg clan with only a few limited features, wouldn't they start to look pretty similar? are there different colors these gargs can have besides browns and whites? are there any that have legs more similar to a bird than a horse or a lion? are there any that have different kinds of wings or something?
it doesn't bug me that the English gargs look SO different from the other gargs we've seen around the world, and i know that that bugs some people... but it does bug me that the English gargs seem to be limited to only features we saw in "MIA"...
guess thats all i have to say about that, LOL!
As usual, I get myself in trouble with these kind of questions. My point was that you weren't going to see gargs that resembled squirrels or something.
There are multiple combinations possible. Just take the three you know of and extrapolate and interpolate from there.
But I still reserve the right to not nail any of the visuals down at this point.
I have something to add about the definition of "sentience." Hopefully you remember this comment thread by the time you get to this. It involved talk of "The One" vs. "The Other" and the ethics of destroying planets in Star Trek, etc. Here's my take:
"Sentience" is a distinctly different quality from "Intelligence." Sentience is being self-aware. Therefore just about all life with a backbone is sentient. Intelligence is the ambiguous one. But we don't like ambiguity, so that's why sentience has taken the role it has in popular language. I say my dog is sentient, a frog isn't. I say a human is intelligent, so is a gorrilla, but a dog isn't. I guess it's ALL subjective in the end.
It brings me to another distinction: the one between sentience and artificial intelligence. Coyote, for instance, can throw a zinger, but is he self-aware? I don't think he is. Xanatos hasn't achieved (or would wish to achieve) that much, has he?
I don't believe that the Coyote robots we have seen through "Cloud Fathers" can truly be called sentient. At least not by my definition. I'm not sure if I completely agree with yours.
More of a comment than a question, actually. I saw the thread about you having considered a GARGOYLES Shangri-La story, but unsure about the legalities since it originates from Hilton's LOST HORIZON. I can tell you one other cartoon series that did go to Shangri-La: JEM in 1986. Richard (Rick) Merwin wrote an episode called "Journey to Shangri-La" where Jem and co. go to Tibet after joining a quest to discover the mythic city; it's a serious episode, not a parody or satire. I'm not going to say much about the episode (both because it's neither the right forum nor my place to rant) but I thought you might find it interesting. Don't know what clearance, if any, they had though. I have heard when a sequel book was developed to LOST HORIZON they had to deal with Hilton's estate. Just stuff to contemplate and share with the group at large, I guess, but if you have any thoughts or commentary...
Thanks. That's very interesting. And vaguely-ironic, since writing for Jem was my first work in animation.
hi, Greg!
Not really a question, just a reply to your call about the script of Rosswell Conspiracies.
As you've read from the technic question about script terminology, I'm the one who bough the script.
I had it for 30 dollars, but could have gone up to 80, which was all the money I had left for the weekend.
I loved your version soooo much more than the one that was aired! Darker, more realistic, and the character much deeper than in the actual animated version. I never really cared for Nick Logan, but Tony Markus, ah! that's another story! He has that Anti-Lee Majors quality around him, that humor. I was LOL with his line, responding to his cousin. "In fact, things got downright charred and rare." Oh gosh I just LOVE that line!
It's really too bad that 1. they didn't use your script as it was and 2. that you didn't got to write more. R.C. could have been the sci-fi pendant of Gargoyles.
ten stars out of five! *back to re-read it again*
Wow, Denis, thanks. I'm glad someone bought it who appreciates it. It's very gratifying. I liked Tony a lot too. That script wrote very fast. Much easier than most everything I've ever written before or since. It kinda surprised me. And I was blown away when they didn't use it. But that's life...
I can tell from what you put on my post(and other posts), that Entity's expasion on the vocabulary thing will make you pretty happy. I wanted to say a lot of that to, but I'm not as good with words. It's hard to believe though, that Power Rangers did better better then Gargs, when it's vocab pretty much limited to "Lets get em you guys" and the like. Here are some other good words from Gargoyles: Mechiabelliant<sp???>, enchilon, odyssey, avatar(did I mention that one already?), popirus, humility and some good latin words as well. A few times it seemed a little unrealistic (his reverse phicoligy was pretty blaitent), but otherwise, it has great sentance structure & dialouge(which is more than I can say for myself). That's all I've gota say, except sorry about my bad spelling.
Yeah, I think you REALLY need to work on that. (I guess Gargoyles didn't help much with spelling.) But thanks. And here's a bit of help...
I'm guessing on some of these corrections:
expansion
Machiavellian
[enchilon -- I have no clue on this one. Enchilada?]
odyssey
avatar
papyrus
humility
reverse psychology
blatent
sentence
dialogue
got to
Hi again,
This is on Xanatos. Someone asked about the logic of Xanatos going through all of the trouble of bringing the gargs to life, only to have them steal some disks, then to just wastefully try to eradicate them with the Steel Clan. I have been conflicted with this contradiction in Xanatos' character as well, and I think it is a result of so much having to be inferred from the episodes. As viewers we are accustomed to being handed everything on a silver platter. Mainstream America is lazy like that. But in a 22-minute cartoon, you didn't have that kind of time. You couldn't explain everything. So characterization, especially, needed to be shown not told.
In Xanatos' case, he really is more of the trickster than the megalomaniac. In the show we got more of an impression of control and dominance. This is the air that X likes to put off. Cool and collected. With a master plan for everything. This was mostly a FRONT. The REAL Xanatos is, as you've accentuated through your episode reviews, a trickster. He lives by the moment. He's a thrill seeker. He makes up his plans as he goes along. That's why his plan in "Metamorphosis" seemed so flimsy, as so many Ask Gregers have brought up. That's why he seemed to change priorities so much in the first season. He re-evaluated. And if you think about it, this more dynamic approach to his character makes his 'reformation' all the more plausible. X, whether we've realized it or not, was in a constant state of change throughout the entire series.
Sure.
Although, I don't think I agree with the flimsy making-it-all-up as you go along FRONT interpretation.
He is a Trickster, but a well-prepared one. (No magic to rely on.) He does adapt, but he also plans. And he enjoys the game, so results don't always matter as much to him.
Hi Greg,
Wow, you can definitely tell the difference between your pre-LA and post-LA responses. ;)
I just had to join Sloth in complimenting you and the other writers who worked on Gargoyles on the unbridled freedom of vocabulary you embraced. In too many cartoon shows, the dialogue is dumbed down to the point where you get angry that someone's actually getting paid for writing it. Adults tend to not realize that kids appreciate good entertainment. They aren't just mesmorized by pretty flashies. And dialogue is a pivotal part of good entertainment. Now that I think about it, I believe Gargoyles has had an even bigger impact on me than I've previously imagined. Words like "cliche" and "naivete" are ones I got directly from Gargoyles. Sure I've seen them elsewhere, but I GOT them from Gargoyles. I'm about to start my first year at college and I am majoring in Creative/Professional Writing (haven't decided between the two yet). Gargoyles is probably the influence that drove me most toward the decision to take my life in that direction. I realize that Gargoyles really was an educational program, and I'm not speaking of the few token episodes that dealt with gun control or literacy or deforestation. Watching Gargoyles made me smart. It is like the anti-cartoon, because it did precisely the opposite of what most typical children's entertainment does, at least when you or Michael Reeves isn't on deck: vegetabilize.
What is the difference between my "pre-LA and post-LA responses"? Since I'm ALWAYS in L.A., I'm not sure what you mean.
But otherwise, thanks. As a writer and teacher you couldn't have paid me (or Michael, if I might briefly speak for him) a higher compliment.
I was just skimming through the Garg Science archive, and I ran across a post by Faieq asking about colored irises, and whether or not gargoyles had them. She came to the conclusion that gargs had no irises, since the dim moonlight would be enough for them. I don't think that works, biologically, because sophisticated animals (humans included) have irises-- involuntary sphincters which control how much light enters the eye, constricting to prevent damage from too much light and expanding to let in more light in darkness. Gargoyles, like cats, probably have excellent night vision, being all noctournal and stuff, so they HAVE to have irises.
Maybe their eyes are just predominantly dark, like horses and dogs, with light blue eyes cropping up occaisionally.
Dunno why I went on so long. I was actually just checking for your next Gathering ramble (It's still June at this writing), and for some reason I just had to mention the horse/dog/iris thing.
Thanks for your time.
Thank you. Sounds reasonable.
Hi Greg!
This is about two days after the Convention, and I just wanted to say how great it was seeing/meeting you and the rest of the cast and crew of GARGOYLES (or at least a sizable portion of them) in person. I also enjoyed seeing the various pitches you had (I LOVE Sphinx's design--though I doubt that was at all final), and hearing the stories surrounding the various aspects of the show.
Kudos to you, Jennifer, Patrick, Kathy, and the rest of the Con staff, volunteers, and guest for making this an extremely memorable Con.
(Of course, by the time you read this it will have been MONTHS in the past, but the good feelings are still that strong.)
Well, not months. Just weeks. And it's hard to believe even that much time has passed. I had a great time too. It was nice to finally meet you, and thanks for being Matt for an evening.
I have been a gragoyles since the beginning just like the x-files. I just wanted to say that the gragoyles was the best and is stille the best show around. It hasthe x-files appeal to it plus it is just cool liek ed the sock chao
I lost you at the end there, but thanks.
Hello Mr Weisman!
First of all, congeratulations on such a great show, it's the best cartoon I've ever seen, I've loved it since I was a kid!
Just a quick question. I asume that Demona eventualy finds out about Goliath and Elisa's relationship. How does she feel? I always thought that she retained feelings for him - despite her best efforts - and there's the fact that she probably hates Elisa more than anyone else alive.
When you outlined the space spawn/Samson/2198 or something storyline, there was no mention of Goliath and Elisa ever having children, grandchildren etc. I know that biologicaly speaking, there was very little chance that it would ever happen (unfortunantly), but I always thought that they would find someway of adopting. You don't have to say if you don't want to, but Goliath and Elisa without kids is heartbreaking. They would make such wonderful parents! I know that they would help raise the clans children, but its not quite the same is it? I mean Goliath has taken up the role as sole parent to angela, and Elisa is human anyway. Please give me hope!
Anyway, sorry. I didn't mean to rant on for so long. I need my gargoyles fix.
Good luck for the future.
XXX
Thanks, Stacey.
You'll worry less if you stop thinking like a human. There will be plenty of children. And Goliath and Elisa will be parents to them. I've discussed them having their own children before. Hinted at it. Check the archives if you want.
As for Demona, I don't think this will come as news to her. And she already doesn't like it.
Have you ever seen Babylon 5? It's quite good and could give Gargoyles a run for the money.
I saw the pilot and didn't care for it. Later, people I respected told me the series was great. So I tried a couple more times to watch. But I just couldn't make heads or tails of what was going on.
It's a concern I have for Gargoyles as well. Tried to make each (non-multi-part) episode stand alone. But maybe people had trouble coming into the middle of our stuff too.
All I know is that I had no luck finding an entry point on Babylon Five. And no way to go back and start over. That doesn't mean the series wasn't great. Just that I missed the boat at the beginning and couldn't find my way aboard later.
grrr, because anonymous had to bring it up again i thought i should once more say that i seriously doubt gargoyles evolved from dinosaurs, maybe they had a common ancestors or something, but it seems really unlikely that gargs are saurian descendants. i mean, look at the English gargs! they don't look anything like dinosaurs or even reptiles. i think its more likely that the English gargs evolved from lions, horses, and birds then other gargs evolving from dinosaurs, and Greg has said that they didn't. i think Gargs are so different from most higher life forms of life that the gargate family seperated from the rest of the animal kingdom far back in history, before dinosaurs, maybe even before reptiles!
sorry, i had to rant about that again...
"Why do the little things always frustrate me!" -Demona
geeeez, Greg, do YOU think gargs evolved from dinosaurs? i know you're not a biologist, but what do you think?
I know what gargs evolved from; I'm just not telling at this point. If you go back far enough, then all biological life evolved from the same basic source on this planet. Where and when gargates diverged is the issue. In a general sense, one could argue that it took place at a time of dinosaurs. But it depends on how you define the word dinosaur. As it is commonly used, as a catch-all term? Or scientifically?
Suggestion:
I noticed that Greg has been receiving the same questions over and over again and I'm certain he's getting tired of answering them all the time. So, to save him as well as us time & trouble, why don't who ever manages the archive to create a "FAQ Archive" and put the FAQ with best answers in it.
just a suggestion
A nice suggestion. But easier said than done. And time consuming. Todd's been talking about that though. Todd, any further thoughts? Gore?
I know we've spent a lot time talking about Demona's motivations, but what of Thailog's. I'm guessing a desire to prove his own legitamacy in light of his unique origins and the long shadow cast by his fathers, especially Goliath.
One thing that never made complete since to me though was why he turned on Demona. There can't be that many Gargoyles who would ally themselves with his "unique slant on things." Clones are fine but Thailog initially relegated them to the status of servile drones. Was it that Demona was a loose canon. Was he simply bored with her? Finally it occured to me that if he is trying to prove himself to be a better Gargoyle,by his own defintion, tthen Demona might very well seem like a "hand me down." Or perhaps, he realized that Demona saw him not as "Thailog", but as a Goliath substitute. Talk about a blow to your self worth!
All very interesting observations. Lot of truth there.
I think you may be right about Demona, but you're also leaving his attraction (for whatever reason) to Elisa out of the equation.
And you may be giving the long shadow of Goliath too much credit. I tend to think Xanatos was the bigger influence and the longer shadow.
But it all sounds smart to me. (Except the "bored with her" part. Demona is many things, but never boring.)
Does the spell of immortality completely heal Demona and MacBeths injuries. Do bullet or stab wounds heal without a trace or do the leave battle scars. It had occured to me that the spell might not have to heal them to be good as new, just enough to keep them alive. If being "alive" is the minmal requirement. Then the two of the could theoretically go into comas for the rest of eternity and still be considered "alive" for the purposes of the spell. I know, now way you were actually going to do this. Just exorcising a "creativity demon."
Hey, exorcise away.
Another interesting thing to think about: For brief periods of time, Angela has had both Macbeth and Thailog as stepfathers. *Grin* Angela's family is somewhat dysfunctional, is it not?
Whose isn't?
Well, it's certainly a relief to have the Gargoyles 2198 contest finally over with; I'm amazed that it took us so long to get the last two answers right. Well, now for a few comments on "Gargoyles 2198"'s overall description.
A number of elements in it certainly surprised me. For example, while I had suspected for a long while that the Space-Spawn would be playing a major role in the spin-off, I hadn't expected that it would open with them actually conquering the planet. Likewise, I was certainly surprised at the reason for Owen being unable to become Puck in the series (Alex being in Space-Spawn captivity), though it did make sense (I'd had my own speculations for the reason for the "block on Puck" before the contest began, though I won't mention them here because of the rules - suffice it to say that none of them involved Alex being held prisoner by anybody).
Another element in the spin-off was one which I'd perhaps "half-anticipated", and which did strike me as logical, but which I hadn't been seriously expecting in "Gargoyles 2198"; the notion of Samson and Delilah working together. Now, before the contest had come out, I'd been speculating for some time over whether Samson would have some connection with Delilah - given their names, it would be almost impossible not to have something like that happening - but never gave it any serious thought since I obviously didn't seriously believe that the original Delilah whom we met in "The Reckoning" would still be around at the time of the spin-off (even when it was "Gargoyles 2158" rather than "Gargoyles 2198"). Of course, I hadn't counted on the possibility of a namesake descendant, but it certainly struck me as a good solution.
And I've got to admit, you found a way to have the Illuminati stoop to a new low in the spin-off; they certainly were shady even in the original series (deals with organized crime, the Hotel Cabal, supporting the Quarrymen), but now they've become out-and-out quislings.
All in all, the spin-off certainly looks promising. I don't know if you'll ever get it made, but it should be interesting.
Questions follow in a separate post.
Thanks. I'm glad it intrigued you. I know you're more of a fantasy/myth guy then a Science Fiction Guy. Hopefully the show would still have a balance of both. But by definition that balance would lead more toward tech in this one.
Now there's a HUGE difference between 994 Scotland and 1994 U.S. Wouldn't the differences in vocabulary, word usage, etc. between these times and places reflect that? If Goliath learned to read and write in 994 Scotland then how was it that he awoke in Manhattan seemingly capable of reading and comprehending modern day American literature? Did he somehow work on his literacy skills outside the series or what? I figured that, as the ultimate all-knowing diety of the gargoyle universe, you would know this.
I do know this. You would too if you checked the archives.
Hey Greg,
Well, either I can't find my answered questions(there are a lot)or I just asked them in a way that wasn't appropriate. Oh well. Anyway, if you ever get to do gargoyles again would you use Timedancer or would you maybe use a different idea if a better one surfaced? Timedancer is good, but I wouldn't put Brooklyn with someone so different. Maybe, but then again; you are the one writing the shows not me.
Since I can't find my questions. Could you e-mail me at Alexlyons3@hotmail.com
I'm sorry, I don't respond with personal e-mails. Defeats the purpose of this forum.
I'm always open to using the best possible idea at my disposal at a given time. But I'm pretty sure that would include TimeDancer. I'm not sure what you mean by 'putting Brooklyn with someone so different'. You don't know enough about Katana to know how different or not she is.
Hello Mr. Weisman.
I don't come here often, but occasionally I'm struck by the urge to quiz you on something. I was browsing the questions you're fielding, and I was struck again by something I notice every time I visit this page. There seems to be some preoccupation here with "the mind of the other." I noticed another poster make reference to your interest in it (although I cannot find any record of your having initiated the discussion).
While the series was still active I saw you invoke this theme frequently whenever you emphasized the cultural shock that the gargoyles experienced in modern America, and I appreciated the fact that you treated our linguistic tendencies to "name everything" as a curious human social construction. It helped to push the idea that these creatures were _not_ human and that we could not understand their natures or their motivations from within the context of human sensibilities. I see there is some similar talk here of the fay, and the notion that their essential nature might be something that is sufficiently far removed from humans so as to be outside our understanding. All of this puts me in mind of the anthropomorphic problem that the SETI administration outlined for dealing with the idea of extraterrestrial intelligence's. Human beings have a tendency to ascribe human values to non human species, and beyond that have considerable difficulty in contextualizing "the mind of the other" without unconsciously resorting to the context of human sensibilities.
Which brings me to the reason for this post; because being a student of the sciences (and probably less attached to my humanity than most people), I have found reason to be extremely critical of some of the aspects of the way the anthropomorphic problem is treated within the natural sciences as it applies to non-human animals. Generally speaking, my problem is that some of the more archaic ethical distinctions that are made between humans and other animals have their foundation in the premise that the ascription of certain mental capacities ( reflection, emotion, etc.) are the ascription of _uniquely human_ qualities. The fact that this premise, itself, is socially constructed rather than informed by data, seems to be lost on at least most _social_ scientists. What is troubling me is that I have begun to observe this kind of thinking migrate into the popular domain through science fiction. I don't really follow sci fi, but I've seen star trek, and I have had occasion to see the half-dozen or so other popular sci fi programs that one can find on television. I see a trend wherein the heroes casual disintegration of a planet is commonly justified with the hazily defined and indistinct ethics of "It did not harbor any sentient life."
This trend is scaring the hell out of me; because the expression "sentient" is not really used within the scientific community, so it does not have any agreed upon definition attached to it and there is no objective data informing the idea of it. The word seems to have infiltrated popular culture, however, where it finds frequent expression. That's what's bothering me. I see a lot of the same hazy ethical reasoning on this board. A number of messages expressing the confusion that humans in your story were subject to when they "mistook the gargoyles for animals rather than sentient beings" and in doing so, justified a campaign to exterminate them.
I would hope that a reasonable group of people would be given pause by the almost casual disregard for life that is being demonstrated with the prioritization of one life over another based upon the presence or non-presence of this seemingly magical endowment. Because if I am reading the intentions of the contributors to this board accurately, then it would appear their position is that if the occupants of that clock tower had been a group of stray dogs or a family of polar bears, then annihilating them with a wire guided missile would have been perfectly reasonable. "It's all right. It didn't harbor any sentient life." I would encourage the fans that come to this site to give some thought to what it is they mean by "sentience." What is the content of this sentience? If it entails that a creature can react to it's environment, anticipate, reflect and emote, then it should be pointed out that what available data exists indicates that this capacity is only about as exclusive a domain as most land based vertebrates.
I guess they shouldn't have disintegrated that planet after all. I hope to encourage others to give this issue the thought that it requires. I am also hoping to elicit some commentary from you, on the matter of how you perceive "the mind of the other." What mental distinctions do you draw between humans and gargates or faeries. I would be interested in hearing you address the notion.
Punchinello
Thank you for writing. It certainly gets me thinking.
I'm probably as guilty as anyone of overusing, or rather overbilling the issue of "sentience". I think the concept has its uses. But it's probably used as a crutch too often.
Certainly, I don't want to see a family of polar bears, anthropomorphic or otherwise, blown up by a guided missile.
I don't much like the idea of destroying planets. In science fiction or otherwise.
As to this "mind of the other" concept...
Well for starters, I don't believe I did initiate the discussion of it -- unless you're including my constant admonishments to posters here that they are thinking like a human.
The previous post by Demoness and my response are a perfect example. She thinks Oberon is out of line. But she's thinking like a human, and a biased one at that. (I don't mean to pick on you, Demoness.) Oberon has a valid point of view. We may not like it, but it seems justifiable to me.
But the question of the mind of the other, was posted here initially by someone else. ( I can't remember who it was at this moment. ) I only just answered it in the last few days. Since you posted YOUR question, hopefully you've seen my response to that one.
And to reiterate, my response was that I'm still (in our universe) interested in the mind of US. Not the OTHER. But one way to explore that is to put ourselves in the shoes of the OTHER. Finding and describing and bringing the OTHER to life, whether as a Gargoyle or as a Child of Oberon, is for me an exercise in EXTRAPOLATION.
For example: If I was me, BUT I turned to stone every day AND I aged at half the rate I currently do PLUS most of my species had been exterminated 1000 years ago, ETC. -- then WHAT WOULD I BE LIKE?
For me, it's less about investing in species then in individual characters. Each with his or her own UNIQUE LIST of "extrapalatory parameters" (I just made that phrase up.)
It's really no different with a character like Elisa. After all, I'm a white Jewish male from California who has spent his entire adult life working in fiction. Elisa is an African-American/Native-American female from New York who's spent her adult life fighting crime. To understand her, I need to extrapolate.
However, in order to understand individuals of another species, I need to know more about that species. I need to envision the parameters that I will use to fully create their characters. So I've done that. In many ways, to me, gargoyle culture represent a kind of ideal. Not perfection, which doesn't personally interest me. But an ideal. Purpose. Loyalty. Oneness with the world they live in. Etc. I've borrowed things that I admired from multiple cultures and from my imagination, and I've tried to weave it into a coherent whole that fits the biology that I assigned them. These biological limits also create parameters for extrapolating character. Yes, the turning to stone thing. But also the group egg laying on a twenty year cycle. This naturally leads into the group child rearing thing. One is biological. One is cultural. But they are linked by extrapolation.
[Or... and I know this sounds silly but... perhaps they are linked by truth. By the fact that they exist in the Gargoyle Universe. As I've said many times before, sometimes this show flowed so well and easily, that it just seemed like I was tapping into something that existed. (But that's got nothing to do with this discussion, so let's ignore it.)]
And yet, from my point of view, all this is used to further illustrate the human condition. I don't think Oberon does or should think like us. But don't we all know a couple people with a little Oberon in them.
Keith David has said, as recently as seven days ago, that when he grows up he hopes to be like Goliath. And I personally think, that flawed as he is, Goliath is a wonderful role model. So we, as humans, can learn from Gargoyles. And we, as humans, can learn from Margot Yale as well. Maybe as a negative example. Maybe as something more down the road.
Ending Hunter's Moon with Jon Canmore becoming the human equivalent of Demona, was not an accident. They arrived at that point in two very different ways -- each, I hope, well informed by his or her species. (Or well extrapolated.) Nevertheless, the similarities between them are obvious and represent a "lesson" for us all.
All that stuff interests me MUCH, MUCH more than the exercise of creating something fully OTHER, just for the sake of achieving that.
Someday that may not be true. Aliens could land in Washington D.C. tomorrow and then comprehending the OTHER for the sake of understanding the OTHER will become a BIG priority fast. But for the time being, the human race is effectively alone in the universe. And before the aliens land, I'd like us all to get to know ourselves MUCH, MUCH better. In that sense, an Oberon, a Goliath, a Nokkar, are all just tools to that end.
The concept of sentience, comes in again, as I said, as a crutch. A convenient distinction between Bronx and Goliath, for example. Let's say you're from Russia. You don't speak English, and Goliath doesn't speak Russian. Still you have a hope that one or both of you may learn to speak the other's language. Dialogue is possible.
Bronx isn't ever going to speak Russian or English. That's the distinction. For what it's worth. In a moral sense, I'd say it's not worth MUCH at all. In a PRAGMATIC sense, we're not being honest if we don't admit it MEANS a lot.
Now. I don't think sentience is a WALL. Koko the gorilla can communicate in sign language. And I've got to say, I'm not sure that whales and dolphins aren't squealing complex philosophical discussions every day of the week. (Which is confusing because Dolphins have an eight day week, and whales have a thirty-seven day week. But what are you going to do?)
But even including a Bronx or a Cagney has value in the show. How do we respond to them. How do they respond to us? It's fun to do "The Hound of Ulster" and try to understand how an "animal" responds to various stimuli. It's still extrapolation. Now, with Bronx, I can cheat. I can keep him a beast and anthropomorphize him to my heart's content, because that species doesn't truly exist. I can make him as intelligent as I want. My goal there is to simply be consistent. Bronx can't start responding like Scooby Doo one day. You get the idea.
It's still about us understanding us and our place in the world. If in my own small way, I'm helping to open minds, helping to pave a bit of a way for when the aliens DO LAND, then great. But first and foremost, I'm asking us to KNOW OURSELVES.
Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to get repetitive. But this whole thread intrigues me. Feel free to post again with a follow-up. And everyone's welcome to join in.
This is something I've been wanting to ask for a while.
A lot of information on the net in relation to Gargoyles is the criticism reports I read. Critics who evaluated Gargoyles say that as for children, it's a good show to teach morals, right-and-wrong differences, and social problems. They especially mention the episode "Deadly Force" in particular as a lesson learning experience about the dangers of weapons.
But, as for those of us adults, we believe Gargoyles was Disney's way of appealing to a more mature audience. Most of us would say its attractive because of the story, characters, episodes, Shakespearian underlyings, or the overall fictional universe idea makes it interesting. These things, I think, are what make adults come to Gatherings or purchuse merchandise, etc.
So, my question is: Who would you agree with more? The people like us fans, who ask you questions, still watch the series on our VCRs, and adore the story. Or, the critics who would say that Gargoyles is a good children's cartoon, suitable for teaching them lessons of behavior, ethics, etc.
I view my audience like a target. There's a bull's eye in the middle, and concentric circles surrounding it.
Put another way, I try to write on multiple levels. Eye candy and clear lessons for younger kids. Shades of grey and other more sophisticated material for older audiences. Hopefully, I'm reaching the widest possible audience. That's the goal.
Mostly, however, I write to please myself. The more I do that, the less likely it is that I become a hack.
You mentioned once that you somewhat regretted calling the fay in "Gargoyles" "Oberon's Children", because that led some of the audience to get the wrong impression, and believe that the fay were Oberon's biological offspring. Actually, I was recently watching my tape of "Heritage", and noted a strong piece of evidence for Oberon not being the biological father of them (or at least not all of them). In the episode, Raven describes Grandmother as his cousin. That would certainly indicate that they are not biological siblings and therefore do not share a common father in that sense. So the series does have something to make it clear (for the observant) that the faeries aren't Oberon's children in that sense. I just thought that you'd like to know.
Yeah, thanks. I'm aware of it.
But it still doesn't change the fact that when you first hear the phrase, it's a touch misleading.
But so is fae or fay. It doesn't adequately cover the concept as far as I'm concerned.
Ok, I think i'm outa worthwhile questions for the moment so i'll just make a comment about the show. One thing I really like about gargoyles (besides the great music, animation, story and characters) is it's hudge vocabulary. I remember when I was younger, the show taught me to use some cool words such as: subterfuge, cataclisim, clishe, abomination and many others that I can't think of right now. Just thought I'd mention someting that i thinks gone unmentioned.
Great work yall!
Thanks. That's very gratifying to the eyes of this old English Teacher.
(Now if I could just get you all to proofread.)
Greg,
Thanks for responding to my questions. I've written about four novels, but none of them have been accepted. Maybe it's my style of writting I don't know...but perhaps we can help each other in this matter. Would it be all right if I sent you a story on this web page despite it being against your guidelines...I'd like someone to read it, and since it's about Max Steel I thought you would be the more appropiate person to send it to. Just take a look and if you like it then perhaps we can colabrate on something.
Thanx
Ricky,
I appreciate the sincerity of the offer. But I'm afraid I'm not interested for a score of reasons. Here are the main ones:
1. Max Steel generally is a painful topic for me. I'm quite less than anxious to see anyone else's version of that character.
2. I don't know you. You may be a great guy. Or you may be law suit happy. Even if you are the former, if I break my rule for you, than someone else who is law suit happy can claim that sometimes I break my rules and that I must have broken it for him or her.
3. I'm sorry, but I'm not looking for a new collaborator. My brother and I are collaborating on a screenplay. But working with him is like working with my second self. Otherwise, generally, I prefer to gut it out on my own.
Having said all that, I wish you all the best with your work. If writing is your passion, then stick with it.
This is something that I should be posting later, ideally, since you haven't yet gotten to the Avalon World Tour episodes in your ramblings, but I finally decided that I needed to let this out of me soon, so I'm doing so now.
I've noticed, over the years since I discovered "Gargoyles" fandom on the Internet, that many people didn't like the Avalon World Tour for various reasons (the length of time, the absence of Hudson and the trio, the focus on myth and fantasy aspects rather than more "mundane" elements like crime-fighting, etc.). On the other hand (while I may have had my moments of wondering when Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx were going to get back to New York), I quite liked the World Tour. To a certain extent, I'll admit that I'm biased - my tastes naturally run towards fantasy/myth elements. But after doing a little thinking on this one, it increasngly struck me that, aside from all that, something of the nature of the Avalon World Tour was a must for "Gargoyles" at some point.
The reason for this is that the World Tour served a very crucial purpose (besides the general one that you mentioned of expanding the "Gargoyles Universe"). It made it clear that Goliath, his clan, and Demona weren't the only gargoyles left. And that was a crucial step. Because if they really had been, the gargoyle species would have been almost irrevocably doomed to extinction, with only seven members left, only one of those seven a female, and that one estranged from all the rest and very unlikely to reconcile with them. Goliath and the others would have been the "last gargoyles", not only in the sense of being the only ones left, but also in the sense that no new gargoyles would come along after them.
If that had been the case, it would have obviously made a rather depressing series. Admittedly, having the main character be the "very last of his kind" wouldn't necessarily be utterly melancholy - Superman is the very last Kryptonian, and his story's an upbeat one, on the whole. But the situation there's different; Superman's alien origin is treated more as a plot device to explain his abilities, so his being "the last of his kind" doesn't appear quite so melancholy. Goliath and his clan's "gargoyleness", however, was treated in the series from the start as a crucial part of them and their very nature, rather than a similar handy plot device to allow them to serve as effective protectors of New York. And also, it was clear enough from the start that an important part of the series would be the gargoyles seeking to make peace with humanity, to overcome the fear that so many humans view them with. Such a quest would have been futile (in a sense) if they were the last of their kind - the understanding on humanity's part of the true nature of gargoyles would come too late to avert the race's extinction - the best that the gargs would be able to hope for in such a situation was that they might be able to live out their last years without the general human population hunting them down, but still aware that there would be no new gargoyles after them. Not very happy.
So there'd obviously have to be gargoyles living in other parts of the world to ensure a future for the species. And Goliath and his clan would have to come into contact with those other gargoyles for the audience to see that they weren't the last. But the clan's situation would make that tricky. For one thing, there'd be the obvious transportation problems - they can't simply hop aboard the next plane bound for London or Japan. And given how secretive gargoyle clans would obviously have to be in modern times, even if Goliath and Co. had a mundane means of transportation to wherever it was that one of these clans was living, they would certainly not be likely to find out about these other clans easily. The only solution to both questions that wouldn't feel contrived was magic - as in the magic of Avalon that sends you where you need to be. That way, Goliath could be brought to the locations of the clans in London, Guatemala, and Ishimura in a convincing fashion.
So I think that the Avalon World Tour was indeed a practical must for the series, to allow the crucial moment when the clan can learn, as Hudson put it in "The Gathering", "We're not alone. We're not the last."
Hey, pal, I'm with you.
From moment one, we wanted to present an OPTIMISTiC world view, that mirrored Goliath's own. (Not that he hasn't had a bad moment or mood or two.)
The World Tour was a necessity from that stand point for all the reasons you stated.
Plus it was a necessity given some of my future plans. 2198 immediately comes to mind. But there was other stuff too.
Greg, I was reading you're welcome letter and I noticed a mistake in it...you said you were the creator and producer Gargoyles, but you misspelled producer, you have "produser". Just thought you should know.
Thanks. I noticed that long ago -- but I don't know how to fix it. I also don't think I mispelled it (though it's certainly possible). Gore, was that me or you?
Are the fiction serieses on the http://tgs.gargoyles-fans.org/ website cannon to Gargoyles? If so, I have some more questions.
No. I've never read any of it.
Greg, I must commend you for sticking by your guns and continuing to answer these questions from devoted fans long after the demise of the series. It's very encouraging.
And with that, I'll give (what I think is) an easy question: if you could be asked any question about the Gargoyles series at all, what would that question be, and how would you answer it?
That's not even vaguely easy.
One more thing, I visited the Coming Attractions website, which mentions the Gargoyles movie. It had a plot synopsis that was written when Devlin was in charge. In my opinion, I'm SOOO glad it was rejected. For all fans who are curious, check it out <http://www.corona.bc.ca/films/> , but be warned. It is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!
Uh, thanks, I guess.
REVELATIONS
"Better late than never" as Elisa would say.
I liked this ep alot for several reasons. The first and foremost of course being Bluestone. He becomes the focus of an entire episode and finally meets the gargoyles. I kind of agreed with the "About time" sentiment the gargs had.
I'm not sure if, in my initial viewing, I believed Matt actually helped trap Goliath. Probably because I was so pleasantly surprised at hearing Efrem (sp?) Zimbalast Jr. as Mace. I think I may actually have decided to reserve judgement on Matt until the end of the ep (or at least I decided to do so when he went "narrating gumshoe" on us).
That's another thing I kind of like about this ep--the majority of it is told via Matt's voice-over and flashback. It just adds something to the story. And yeah, with his trenchcoat and character quirks, doing "gumshoe narration" seems to be natural for Matt.
On the subject of voice-overs, I didn't notice that Chavez had a different voice until I started looking at the credits at the end of the episodes. After that, I did notice the lighter sound, but still Ms. Gabrielli did a great job filling in for Ms. Ticotin.
And Mr. Asner's Jack Dane (with his wonderful use of the word "bum") proves a memorable character. I was quite happy when he showed up again later.
Anyway, back in the story, I also liked the attention to continuity. Matt's refernce to Elisa bringing in the TV in THE EDGE, the reappearance of Hacker, etc.
And like you, I loved the "enough food for a family of gorillas" and "dental plan" lines. I'm not sure why I like the former of the two so much, maybe because that just seems an interesting way of putting the gargoyles' eating habits in some perspective.
I was suitably impressed upon learning that Xanatos was only a "lower echalon" member of the Society. In fact, I was almost aghast. "How could this rich, powerful guy, whose been pretty much the main adversary and most successful bad guy in the series, be only in the LOWER ranks of the Illuminati?" So the Society got my attention pretty quickly here.
Can't say much about the car sequence, except that I can't help smiling every time the "three words" bit is played--it's just so perfect. Other than that, I like Elisa's quiet admission at the end.
The gargoyles' awakening in this ep does seem a bit more..."unique" than usual. For me it still feels like something in the animation, but Matt being new to it does add something.
The whole sequence at the hotel itself is real fun (hey I knew Goliath was going to get out well enough--I just wondered where Matt's fate would fall). Looking at your memo on this ep, I'm more than a little sorry that we didn't get to see the "false roof" room. That sounded great.
I don't know when, but somewhere in his talks with Mace, I kind of figured Matt was shaming him somehow. So I was prepared for a happy ending.
One of my favorite lines comes from Mace here when he talks about "wasting" Goliath: "It'll be a black mark. I'll be severely reprimanded. But if I allow Goliath to become the first prisoner to ever escape the Hotel Cabal...the flushing sound you hear will be me and my 75-year pension going down the drain."
I think the thing that really intrigues me about this line is the mention of Malone being punished for killing Goliath. I'm still dying to know the Illuminati's plans for the gargoyles.
Yeah, everytime I see Mace grab onto the elevator cables I have to wince.
And I suppose in some sadistic way, I like seeing Mace trapped in the Hotel--especially with that tic going in his eye as he completely loses his mind.
I thought Elisa's confession here was well done. I could understand her feelings about this and sympathize (though, of course, I can't say I'm special because I know the existance of sentient, non-human creatures).
And then the Hacker tag. I saw quite a few things coming in this episode, and this was NOT one of them. I didn't think Hacker would appear again after his spot at the beginning. But here he was, and as a member of the Illuminati. A very fun and intriguing revelation, IMHO.
Kind of a pity that we don't hear from the Illuminati again until THE JOURNEY.
THERE! I do believe I am finally caught up with your episode rambles (as of this writing).
I'm the one who's behind. I've been so swamped preparing for the Gathering, I've been resisting watching more eps. After it's over, I hope to get back into it.
OUTFOXED
Okay, finally back on track since mid-March.
First off, yes I'll agree this ep had a few problems, which you pretty much pointed out in your ramble--animation problems, especially in relation to Goliath's size, and the extra flashback are somewhat annoying. Still, this ep did have some nice stuff. And the sound wasn't too bad, I still heard, and loved, Goliath's "That. Stings."
Anyway, as soon as I heard "Cyberbiotics" I was interested in where this would be going. Hearing the name "Renard" I instantly guessed some connection with Fox. Her being his daughter did cross my mind, but I didn't rule out any other possible relation to him.
(If I may digress here; I knew that "renard" was another name for "fox" from its usage in a children's book I had had for years, THE TOMTEN AND THE FOX. Just felt like mentioning that.)
As for Vogel...when I first saw him I laughed. I thought he was a wonderful in-joke, one of the best I had seen in any series. I'm surprised people had a problem with him looking like Owen (as I said, I thought it was extremely amusing). Of course, at the time I first saw the ep, I was surprised he ended up having as big a part as he did. I thought he would just have had that one appearance at the beginning and then, that was it. But he turned out to be a very important (and interesting) character in this episode.
Renard intrigued me...mostly because of his unhealthy appearance and use of a high-tech wheel-chair. Despite this, he had a reasonably strong voice and managed to "talk-down" to Goliath (something Todd and I both find amusing about the interaction between the two).
Fox: I loved seeing her in the "red sweater and tight, black pants" ensemble. Her fight with Xanatos was fun as well--he knocks her down once, she gets back up, pins his arm behind his back, and then takes him down with a flip. Fun!
I never picked up that Xanatos was afraid when he mentioned "test results." Probably because as soon as I heard that I figured out that Fox was pregnant (I was finally starting to expect greater things from this series).
Back on the Air Fortress--I had missed METAMORPHOSIS the first time this aired, so I didn't know who this "antonsevarius" was that Renard mentioned. I didn't pay it much mind though (after all, Renard had immediately before named Owen as an ex-Cyberbiotics employee, and that really interested me). Basically, I forgot all about it when I finally did get a chance to see METAMORPHOSIS, so when I watched OUTFOXED again, and heard Renard mention "Anton Sevarius," it was like finding out the connection for the first time.
On a similar (but not quite) note, when Renard mentioned "My Anastasia. My Janine." Well, I guessed right away that Janine was Fox's real name. I don't know why...maybe that just seemed to fit her better to me than Anastasia (who I then figured to be her mother).
Vogel's betrayal and return to Renard's aid were, in my opinion, handled quite well. I found Vogel's actions believable, and had no problem with his change of heart.
Goliath gives Renard a great speech on the difference between the minds of living beings and automotons, and the two have one of my favorite exchanges in the series.
RENARD: "One thing I do know is your debt to me has been paid in full. A ship for a ship. We are even."
GOLIATH: "No. We are friends."
RENARD: [laugh] Yes. Friends.
And then the tag! I knew Fox was the "Hang-gliding ninja" and that she was Renard's daughter by now. AND that she was pregnant. But I still enjoyed this tag. I really liked the discussion between father and daughter, and the way the revelations were handled. A very fun ep.
Another digression: When I showed this ep to my mother, she instantly recognized the voices of both Peter Scolari, and Robert Culp. Anyway, I thought they did great jobs, and I still love the little nuances Culp managed to invest in Renard.
Hopefully, I'll catch up with your rambles by tomorrow.
I hope so. Cuz I like your rambles too.
Yeah, Peter and Robert were terrific.
And I'm glad the Fox stuff worked for you. It's a strange little episode, but it's also got some pretty revolutionary stuff in it. Kind of insidious that way.
Anyway, I'm fond of it.
hmmm, you just said:Greg responds...
I have three offices. One in Beverly Hills, my freelance office. One in Burbank, my Disney office. And one in my home.
I almost NEVER answer questions at home, because I almost never log on from there. I'd rather spend time with my wife and kids.
I answer at one of the other two offices whenever I have a free hour or so.
Occasionally, on vacation, if I have web access, I'll stay up late and answer after everyone else has gone to bed. Like now.
i find that very funny, cuz its 4:30 am here right now and i'm watching your answers come in! i guess i'm a true fan... or just really bored and unable to sleep...
anyway, so the Canadians are going to be kicking themselves for not getting G2198-517, huh? is that cuz Canadians are smarter than us Americans? (that goes out to Pyro X, long story...)
and number 74 is a noun, hmmmm...
ok:
74- adherants
74- companion
i think your clues made it harder to guess... hmmm, i'll be back...
DIdn't mean to make it harder. Sorry. Obviously we now know that 74 is Tradition.
i just watched "Enter Macbeth". i think this was the first of lots of sad ending-episodes... after this in "Reawakening" Coldstone is awakened and apparently dies, in "Metamorphosis" Derek is mutated and decieved by Xanatos, really sad ending, in "Legion" Coldstone is brought back but is destroyed by a virus, and on and on until "Hunters Moon" when the Clocktower is destroyed and the gargoyles are exposed. a very bittersweet series, really, i love it! anyway, back to my point, in "Enter Macbeth" you opened with Xanatos in prison in a dark cell eating bad prison food, while the gargs are living it up at the Eyrie, Broadway cooking in a well-equiped kitchen, Hudson watching the tube in his own tv room, Brooklyn and Lex playing cards in the big foyer, Goliath reading in the nice library, and the Grimorum safe in a high-tech glass display case. but by the end of the episode the clan is the ones living in the dark uncomfortable cell, the Clocktower, no more tv room, you have to break into the public library to read, the best you have for a kitchen is a hotplate, and the Grimorum is now stored in a closet behind a regular wooden door, and as for Xanatos, he's back home now, living the good life atop the worlds tallest building. now, my literature teacher in high school taught me to always see symbolism in everything and though i didn't see it before, this whole episode teems with it. i just wanted to congratulate you and the writers, this is great television, i think!
Thanks.
Images of HOME were consciously threaded throughout this episode. You've left out Macbeth's glorious home, which goes up in flames for his efforts.
Some justice in the world.
I've been away for awhile (due to computer problems), and now I'm trying to catch up.
I read your list of characters ages (from about three weeks ago) and you gave Alex's tentative birthdate as 7/9. That's the same day as mine! Cool!
More later
I can't confirm that Phil, because I'm at home and my timeline is at the office. But it is cool. I assume there are years separating you two. OR else, you're quite the prodigy.
Thought I'd take a stab at providing another viewer's reaction to an episode for you. So here are my observations about/reaction to "High Noon" -
The concept of there not being any scent in Coldstone's world was not jarring - it just seemed to be additional explanation of the rules that I was willing to go along with. It was already established in my mind that this was an alternate world that didn't necessarily have to follow the same rules of nature that my reality does. But I also thought, well, if it can be "real" enough to have heather growing in distant fields, why couldn't it also be artificially scented? But I assumed it was a technological limitation, not the unwillingness of a gargoyle soul to allow herself to smell.
I appreciated the continuity and progression of demonstrating Hudson and Broadway practicing their reading skills openly in front of their family, and I was genuinely pleased to see them doing so well. That I have reactions like this to a cartoon still amazes me, I have to confess. But those subtle yet significant touches provided further evidence to me that this show had some good writers and editors behind it.
Also, there was a lot of nice characterization showing Elisa's relationship with the rest of the clan - the exchange with Broadway about doing the right thing and claiming not to be a hero (when she so obviously is) and with Lex when she offers encouragement and shows confidence in him when she says he'll figure out the programming to fix Coldstone. Also, the part when Demona tells Macbeth her only consolation of enduring the pain of transformation is that he gets to suffer as well is priceless. It's deftly comical and tragically in character simultaneously. So lots of good storytelling and pacing of plot revelation going on here.
I did think it was a bit patronizing of Goliath to tell Elisa she has a whole city to protect and equally patronizing for her to order a full report later. I just sort of winced a bit at that exchange and thought "What was that all about?" I also had an adverse reaction to what I thought was Macbeth's really low blow in the library with the book reference, "And I know how to read them." For someone who had established such a strong code of honor, even among his worst enemies centuries earlier, that seemed more hurtful than any physical blow and really beneath him. So I'll generously attribute such uncouth behavior to his being under a spell, I guess.
In any episode of the series, I trust the reliability of Bronx's nose above all (i.e. in this case, his detection of Demona behind the wall of the closet). Yes, there are some constants in the gargoyle universe.
When the clan questions how two foes like Demona and Macbeth could be in collaboration, Hudson observes -- incorrectly but plausibly that -- "Maybe misery loves company." Ed Asner delivers that line with great finesse, hinting at a lot of complexity behind a seemingly simple statement. For one who appears to be an old-fashioned traditionalist, Hudson understands a lot more than other characters (and even viewers) may give him credit for.
Elisa had a very sweet and sincere line about not being able to leave the clock tower without knowing whether the clan was safe. She's a very dedicated friend. I was surprised that Demona would reveal her dual personality and transform in front of Elisa. I just thought that would be a trump card Demona wouldn't give up so easily, I guess. But I certainly thought it was completely in character for the scantily clad Dominique to strut her stuff in front of her rival - a pure sign of over-compensation for what is really subconscious insecurity and even a bit of self-loathing.
A line of Elisa's that really did not fit, in my opinion, was, "No more monsters - good or bad." I never, never would have believed, after "Awakenings" at least, that Elisa would've ever used that word in relation to her gargoyle friends. But I loved her new-found resolve with Morgan's help. Heroism shines through and adrenalin provides the needed strength; it's the great climax in the episode - the fight scene itself is simply the end result and is secondary to that moment.
More good lines follow: "I'm here to save him." "You fight like a rookie." (Elisa deserved some kind of one-up on Demona) and Macbeth's rye observation to a now Othello-controlled Coldstone that, "It seems your allegiance has shifted slightly" - here proving the concept that, when it comes to drama and comedic effect, more often than not, less is more. Incidentally, the error with the three Desdemonas' hair coloring didn't keep me from thinking of the Weird Sisters connection - I'm trained quite the opposite - any time I see three of anything in the series I'd think Weird Sisters, regardless of coloring.
And then there are the additional interesting revelations at the end, implying more to come in future episodes. But for me, that was almost just obligatory informational stuff needed to move the story along, it wasn't where the true strength of the episode lay.
For what it's worth. ...
It's worth a lot actually. Very strong character analysis. As I said, I think we pushed Elisa a bit to get our parallel story. Caught her exhausted and on a bad day. But I don't think you're wrong about any of the above. Thanks.
a couple of weeks ago Jim R. asked about the picture of Brooklyn on the "Latest Responses" page, i recently pulled out my old gargoyle comics and found that that picture was taken from Issue 5 when Brooklyn and Lex were about to go "para-sailing", i guess he found that shirt wherever he found the skis and stuff. oh, and like i told Jim R. i think the thing on his shirt is *in Californian surfer accent* a "monster wave, dude!" hehehe...
Okay.
Hey,
I'm sorry this question has been asked before. I've been going through the archives for a while now (this'll be my first question) and I haven't come across any references to it, but you never know, right?
Anyway, I just saw a repeat of "Sentinel" last night, and it struck me as a very pilot-esque episode, like you'd set up in mind for a spin off (something like "Widget the World Watcher" meets "Transformers", only more grounded in reality). And yet, you seem to have no intention to spin it off. How come? Did you originally intend to, but decided against it as you felt it wasn't strong enough to carry a series, focusing instead on the other possible spin-offs? Or am I just making things up in my head?
Thanks.
Mostly in your head.
It was never intended to be a spin-off per se, but it was a plot thread I wanted to pick up again later. MUCH LATER. Like in 2198.
Doh! Wrong word in my last question: "conscience" is supposed to be "conscious" as in aware of one's surroundings. Sorry about that.
'SAllright.
HIGH NOON
Came back to the rambles a bit later than I expected. Anyway....
First off, I felt the animation in this episode was some of the best in the series--fluid, characters had "solidness," and just overall very well done. My only real complaint is that sometimes the positions and movements of the characters seemed a bit too...BIG. Over-dramatic perhaps. The most obvious example is the very one you mentioned, Demona's "sex-pot poses." Those always throw me, because they just didn't really seem to fit the scene for me there. I suppose the idea put forward by several other fans--she was showing off against Elisa--is probable, but still.... On the other hand, I must admit that, yes, it is certainly...appealing to watch...the poses.
ANYWAY, still some pretty good animation. But while we're on the subject, Desdemona's skin-color seemed a bit lighter to me in this episode.
Yes, Michael Dorn does a great job contrasting the two personalities in his voice, doesn't he? Just the difference in between hearing him as Othello talking to Desdemona in cyberspace, and then as Coldstone/Iago calling Demona "Sister" is chilling. His voice work is one of the highlights of the episode IMHO.
I did not balk at the progress Hudson and Broadway made in their reading. For an animated television show, I thought this was a very nice show of development among the characters. Pity that even after reading it correctly when it really counted in THE SILVER FALCON, Broadway still has trouble reading the word "right." And perhaps, after a year of watching television, Hudson should have picked up the "hit the sack" phrase--he seemed to pick up "sitting ducks" a lot quicker than Broadway--but still, it was a fun touch.
I do kind of like the modesty Elisa displays in describing herself as no hero. I don't know why, but I do.
I didn't recognize Demona and Macbeth IMMEDIATELY. As soon as they were in the station and I managed to notice the beard on the "felon" I figured it was Macbeth. I didn't recognize Demona until she started talking (who couldn't recognize Marina Sirtis' voice as Demona?). What remained foremost on my mind was why these two were working together. I actually didn't wonder too much about the rest of the stuff--maybe it just didn't occur to me, or perhaps I figured all would be revealed in good time and just suspended my disbelief. I didn't think the two were capable of escaping the Weird Sisters, though. That is, unless the Sisters wanted them to.
As for Elisa...she REALLY should have gone to the doctor if she was out for that long. I admit, in light of this "enforced nap" I always had a problem swallowing Elisa's statement that she had only slept "a few hours in the last 40" (despite the fact that she certainly LOOKED like that statement was true).
I buy that Elisa found Demona familiar (you're right, there's that sort of connection between them).
The transformation sequence of Demona from human to gargoyle (and later from gargoyle to human) were EXCELLENT. I had been waiting to see her change since THE MIRROR and was a bit frustrated that it didn't occur anytime durning the five eps with her between then and now (y'see, I didn't know about the "tiers and tentpoles" back then). Thus, I was quite happy to see her working in human form here. Also, somehow I just KNEW the transformation was going to involve pain. I don't know why...maybe it's what I would have done with the spell if I had cast it on Demona. I can be cruel sometimes.
I'm afraid that the fact that we had three villains teaming up against the heroes didn't hit me as strongly as you would have liked. It's not just that the villains had such complexity, but also the fact that Macbeth and Demona usually are fighting each other. That kind of undercut some of the "WOW, THREE VILLAINS" factor. Also, the good guys still outnumbered the villains (even though the villains managed to outthink and incapacitate them)
I do love the interaction between Goliath and Elisa when the gargoyles head off to Macbeth's. I didn't find Goliath too smug, and I thought Elisa's "full report" remark was kind of fun and endearing.
The sequence at Macbeth's house was pretty cool as well. I also love it when Goliath taps the camera with his wing--I always was interested in seeing what other uses there were for that extra pair of appendages in addition to gliding.
"Just remember, one of them hates your guts." Lex has such a wonderfully blunt method of stating the situation. ;)
Of course Goliath responds with the equally fun "Then I'll just have to be very careful" after he's punched out the console.
Broadway: "Look at all these books!"
ZAP!
Macbeth: "And I know how to read them."
Nice exchange that succeeds in taking us back to LIGHTHOUSE. Also, it managed to impress my brother as being an excellent insult.
Bronx sniffs Demona behind the false wall, Brooklyn takes no notice. A repeat of the events that took place at the castle in CITY OF STONE. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I get the feeling Brooklyn's going to pay a bit more attention to Bronx's hunches after this.
BTW, I just love it when Bronx scratches at the door...and gouges the wood.
I figured Macbeth in the library was probably directly over Demona in the...whatever room it was, for the pain link to work.
Yeah, the villains pulled a smart one with Coldstone/Iago volunteering the added information. I didn't doubt that they would.
Elisa and Demona have their encounter, and then Elisa runs into Morgan. I was surprised to find that Keith David was Morgan's voice--it sounded so different from Goliath. But Morgan is a fun character with some nice insight.
I don't know why, but I like Elisa's mention that if she went to sleep and woke up there would be "no more monsters, good or bad."
Elisa goes to the castle, unarmed, and Macbeth goads Demona into facing Elisa the same way. This is one instance where it makes sense that the villain gives up the advantage of a weapon--just the honorable Macbeth playing on Demona's contempt for Elisa to ensure an honorable fight. And I like that Elisa holds her own well. I'm glad that she didn't just turn out as another "damsel in distress" but worked as a heroine in her own right.
Meanwhile, through all of this, Othello has been hiding away, against Desdemona's pleas. Personally, Desdemona strikes me as the more mature of the two of them, the wiser and more patient (she continues to stick by this guy no matter what--this is one heck of a woman...gargoyle, whatever).
Even though the hair-color was always off, I recognized the three Desdemonas as the Weird Sisters (c'mon, triplets talking nearly as one, in a situation concerning Demona and Macbeth; who else could it be?).
Othello makes the decision and the fight for control begins. You have to admire the sacrifice Othello and Des make for the sake of keeping Iago in cyberspace. I couldn't help feeling sorry that it had to be this way.
After the fight's over, and the chains are blasted, Coldstone takes his leave for the safety of others. A couple things I really like here--Coldstone refers to Elisa as "my lady" and bows, and when Coldstone shakes his head to defer staying until Goliath wakes, he only is able to close the biological eye. His robotic eye can't close. Pity that only shows up here.
And then the jogger comes in for some nice comic relief.
The final tag struck me--kind of like the first Xanatos tag I saw. Coldstone was a feint just to get the talismans--the three the Archmage said would grant "ultimate magical power!" There they were! Macbeth and Demona start to question the situation, and in come the Sisters. I knew they had been involved, but I didn't quite know what they wanted the talismans for. "The coming battle" eh? Well, that was one I couldn't wait to see.
Of course I had to wait a while for AVALON. :)
Glad you liked it. Hope it was worth the wait.
This one's not really smart assed, but still amusing:
Question-
We definitely know that the Illuminati, and particularly Percival/Duval, would have been major antagonists for "Pendragon". Now that the "Arthurian survivors" contest is over, could you tell us now what other recurring antagonists you had planned for Arthur and Griff?
Greg responds...
Ask me later, but with more style.
Sometimes I just type anything, huh?
Don't have time for a large ramble on "Outfoxed", so I'll just comment on a few key points.
Cyberbiotics> I was wondering what became of Cyberbiotics after "Awakening", so it was nice to see them again. And personalizing them in Renard, so we know who it was that got hurt by Goliath and everyone's actions.
I didn't think much of Vogel's resemblence to Owen. I thought they were cousins or something, or perhaps that one was a clone. He also made an interesting character, and I thought his change of heart was believable at the end.
Halcyon Renard. First of all, that is a great name. I like the sound of it. Yes, I did figure that he was Fox's father. I may have flunked out of French class that year, but I knew what Renard meant. He was a great character to, and Robert Culp did a great job doing his voice. Also he made a nice opposite to Xanatos.
Goliath was well-used in this episode. Also nice to show that he's far from perfect in his waiving off his responsibility in the destrcution of Fortress I.
Fox was great in this episode also. She became one of my favorites here. I was surprised by her pregnancy, but it seemed to be a natural step in where she and David were going. Seeing her beat David in their karate match was fun, but I'd like to see him win one some day, he lost to Owen to. Fox's attitude at the end with Renard was priceless, and nice to learn her birth-name. Janine was very appropriate.
Also, with Demona, Elisa, Angela, Fox etc, "Gargoyles" has a lot of great woman characters. That's one thing I really like about this show.
The theme/moral of integrity was a good one, and well handled. I understand how Renard feels when he says it's a daily struggle. I for one have been guilty of taking the easy way out and waiving off integrity. But I try to practice it as often as I can.
This was a very good episode. Not one of my favorites, but very good.
Also, don't ask me how, but I knew that David and Fox were going to have a son. I also knew that IF Goliath and Demona had an egg it was a daughter. Don't ask me how, I just knew.
Hopefully I'll have a longer Ramble/Review for "Revelations". I enjoy doing those.
ANd I enjoy reading them.
I do like writing female characters a lot. My Starship stories also made the females more prominent. Women just appeal to me as subjects. I just hope I do them justice.
Greg,
At the end of Metemorphosis, after Elisa learns her brother has been mutated, she sits in a corner of the clocktower crying. I completely understood this--a perfectly natural reaction-- but what I didnt understand is why no one tried to comfort her. I mean, she is close to the whole clan and ou said by this time Goliath already had definate feelings for her, so why didnt someone try to help her through something that could quite possibly be the hardest time of her life?
Thanks so much!!!!
You only saw a fragment of time.
oh, and if i remember correctly, you said that March 21 was not only the Spring Equinox, and the possible hatch date for gargoyles, but its also your son's birthday, so, Happy Birthday Ben even though its belated by now... talk to you later!
Ben thanks you.
Oh Greg the episode Metamorphisis was pretty cool the mutagen thing and all. Do you know in reality how they do gene transference between different organisms like the gene tranference between Derek and a panther, electric eel and bat. Viruses they insert genes into viruses and inject them into a creature where the viruses insert the foreign genes into the creatures DNA and it usually takes 5 months for the creature's DNA to accept the foreign genes as opposed to the 2 days in the episode Metamorphisis. Also there is also a high risk that the immune system would gobble up the mutagen plus the body also gets rid of cells that are mutated so in reality if a mad scientist ever injected you with a mutagen containing the DNA of animals your immune system would destroy the mutagen or the cells that has been mutated
Oh, sure. But, uh, Sevarius compensated for that with something that temporarily weakens the immune system.
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Someone asked about sources on clothing from 1000 AD so I found these two books and figured that I would post them.
The Book of Costume
-Millia Davenport
What People Wore
-Douglas Gorsline
Thanks.
CITY OF STONE PART FOUR
Finally! I've been trying to respond to this for weeks! But due to a hectic schedule (and a testy computer) I've been hampered in my efforts.
Anyway, Bronx saves Elisa--as we all knew he would--and Demona still manages to work around him. I always did find this scene interesting for the same reasons you mentioned. Bronx won't attack Demona if she does not SEEM dangerous. It's a fun scene to watch (especially when Demona still loses her cool when referring to Elisa).
Yeah, I also like the choral music in the flashback battle sequence. Actually, I have an affinity for any music with choral parts ("O Fortuna" or "Ode de Joy" for example).
One of my favorite scenes in the battle--Demona is fighting a human. He's on the ground in front of her, screaming. She brings down her mace hard. The camera quickly closes in on her face, putting the guy and mace action off-screen. We hear the sound of impact and the scream abruptly cut-off. Maybe I'm sick, but it just pleases me that people actually are dying in this battle. More real.
Seeing Demona happy (truly smiling and laughing) in her interaction with Macbeth is another one of those "heartbreaking moments" for me, because I know it won't last. It always gets me how quickly Demona's smile turns to a frown after Macbeth leaves.
While I never believed Macbeth would betray Demona, it is nice to have confirmation of that.
Demona on the other hand, I can't help but feel a bit frustrated with. That she suspects Mac will betray her I can understand, but why not go with Luach, the one who openly and VEHEMENTLY supported her and her clan? Why go over to the guy who wears a mask with a legacy of GARGOYLE KILLING? Just goes to show that Demona believes in hurting her enemies more than the salvation of her kind--at least that's what it shows to me.
You mentioned in PART TWO how Emma Samms' voicework as Gruoch improved noticably over the four eps. You're so right, she's absolutely smoking in this episode, especially when she chews out Demona. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
The ineffectiveness of the boulders dropped from above is something that always sets my brother off. The first time he saw that scene, he couldn't even complete a whole sentence. :D
The confrontation with Canmore (whose wardrobe I really love, BTW). Macbeth still tries to reason with him, something I admire. Canmore on the other hand, stabs Mac in the back. Like Todd, I find this rather despicable and cowardly. I like Canmore even less when he gives his little anti-gargoyle statement. Gruoch has a similar line, but I can't help feeling a bit more sympathetic towards her.
It's another one of those, "I always found it interesting" bits when Demona doesn't kill Gruoch. Very nice character work.
Backtracking a bit, it is good to know that Bodhe may have finally learned that sometimes you must stand and fight.
The Sisters come in and do their thing. While I already figured the spell out, I did like the way it was phrased. Good dialogue.
And Macbeth and Gruoch part. I still find it one of the most touching moments of the series.
Back in the present:
I didn't find the scene between Goliath and Xanatos too feeble. Granted the tapestry bit comes from out of nowhere somewhat, but the mouth of the armor moving is no big problem. I say that because in later airings (like the one I taped) the animation was fixed and the mouth doesn't move anymore.
I love Macbeth's interaction with Demona here. Yes, she's more rational than usual, but I love the look on her face when she realizes that Macbeth WANTS to die. Didn't see that one coming, did she?
You are right that the DUCKTALES pilot had better "fall-away floor" animation, but this one served it's purpose well enough.
Two of my favorite moments occur after falling out of the castle but before falling into the atrium. Goliath tries to stop D and M--they BOTH punch him. Xanatos tries to use his laser, Macbeth just says, "You're not the only one with weapons, laddie" and throws down a small grenade.
The final confrontation with the Sisters. Their revelations to Mac didn't much surprise me, until they mentioned Luach's death. That got me.
After the Sisters put Mac to sleep, I found myself thinking, "This would be the sort of thing Xanatos might like seeing." Immediately after, Xanatos pops up with "Normally, I'd find this all very fascinating, but right now I need that code to save my city." Wonderful touch of character. Two touches counting Xanatos' reference to Manhatten as his city.
And now, the sequence that pretty much left me breathless. The Sisters show Demona how she had been responsible for the Massacre, the Hunter, and Canmore's victory. I had never thought on that until now. And then, "The access code is...'alone'." When she said that, with tears in her eyes...I cannot adequately describe what I felt.
Xanatos jets up and saves the day. And is painfully aware that he has been seen doing that, even if it is the "dog." "What are you looking at?" Such a funny line.
It's also funny to see Demona, now her ol', vindictive self trying to break the grip of the Sisters-as-children and failing. The Sisters' exit left me eagerly anticipating their next appearance.
Then the sky burns. Whatever you guys did, kudos. Xanatos said it best, "Magnificent."
While it might have been nice for the gargoyles to lift Elisa up into the air, the scene still played well, and Xanatos' "You'll forgive me if I just shake your hand" remains humorous.
While I knew that Xanatos wasn't the type of villain to try to "kill the good guys at all costs," it is a nice final interaction he and Goliath have, explaining this.
Let's hope this posts now. With luck, I'll catch up with the next two rambles over the next couple of days.
I hope so. I love your rambles. Great detailed feedback. (Doesn't hurt that you liked the stuff too.) Hey, I'm vain, but at least I'm honest.
ramble on "Revelations"-
first of all, the name is perfect for this episode, perfect!
ok, i agree, Tom Wilson is excellant in this episode, you can hear what he's thinking with his tone throughout the episode, both while narrating and not. its Tom's performance here that makes Matt one of my favirote characters.
until your ramble i had no idea that a different person was voicing Chavez, which is wierd cuz i usually notice things like that. oh, well, she did a great job!
when Matt first discovers the stuff in the clocktower i was horrified, "Oh no! He's going to discover the gargs and hate them!!" then i realized i've been wanting for Matt to discover the gargs since "The Edge"
until your recent posts i didn't realize that Mace ended up dying at Hotel Cabal, i figured that eventually the Illuminati came in and saved him. Hacker seemed too casual talking about Mace for me to think he died. actually for the rest of the series i was waiting for Mace to get his revenge on Matt and Goliath... guess not, huh?
this episode definetly had the best turn-to-stone scene in the series, its like Matt said, "Wow..." sometimes i'll watch just this part of the episode, its amazing, especially Bronx, i love his stance, beautiful.
Chavez's line to Elisa and Matt about finding each other is one of my favirotes. they were finally acting like real partners by "The Silver Falcon", now they are friends too. Chavez looks especially pleased with herself at this too, probably remebering Elisa's objections to a partner in "The Edge".
i'm happy Matt got his own episode, not just tagging along with Elisa and dissapearing at the right times, what a good episode too...
Thanks. I'm fond of it too.
I just used Tom Wilson again on Team Atlantis.
I think he's terrific. He played Pete for me on Max Steel.
And he just played Ashton Carnaby on Team Atlantis. It was great to see him again.
"Your Revelations ramble"
This is probably more a compliment than anything else. Revelations was actually the first episode of the show I ever saw. I happend to flip through as the opening theme was playing and i stopped and started to watch. As you can guess I was in front of the television again the following Friday. (man that was a while ago)
What I did want to ask was did Mace get his tattoo by choice or was it sort of like branding by the society? (ouch)
Thanks
Maybe both.
(And by the way, it's good to hear from a fan who found the show in the middle and wasn't too put off to invest time into catching up.)
A ramble-review on "Revelations".
I quite liked this episode. I'd been curious for some time about Matt's interest in the Illuminati (as I mentioned before, when I first saw Xanatos donning an Illuminati badge in "Vows", my immediate thought was "What would Matt say if he knew about this?") and in the gargoyles. So now we got an episode in which these two pursuits of his intersected.
And I did initially believe that Matt had sold Goliath out to the Illuminati, which shocked me, since I hadn't thought that he'd actually do something like that. I was glad when the truth came out at the end. I very much liked Matt's narration, as well.
(One thing that did occur to me about Elisa's "uniqueness" in being the only human whom the gargoyles considered a friend; actually, she had lost her "unique" status by this point, in light of the gargoyles also making friends with Jeffrey Robbins and Halcyon Renard - but Elisa wasn't there at either of those meetings, so I don't feel bothered by that inconsistency. And I could understand her reluctance in introducing Matt to the gargs for that reason).
Mace Malone and the Hotel Cabal worked for me (I hadn't even known about the Tower of Terror part before now, or suspected it, for that matter). So did the surprise revelation at the end of the episode that Hacker had been "one of them" all along. I was very curious about what would happen now that Matt knew that his former FBI partner was really an Illuminatus who had been hindering his search.
Actually, that brings me to one of the very few regrets that I have about the series as a whole: the fact that we didn't see anything further with the Illuminati for the rest of the season, and the only element involving it for the remainder of your run on "Gargoyles" was Owen's mention of Duval in "The Journey". (The Goliath Chronicles did do an Illuminati episode after you left, but I definitely didn't like the way that they handled the Illuminati there - they reduced them too much to the level of cliched villains as "evil munitions manufacturers who start up wars just to make a profit" - the Illuminati of your run felt much more "greyish" to me, rather than out-and-out villains like, say, the Archmage or Thailog). I hope that if you get to do the series again, we'll get to see the Illuminati thread (and particularly the Matt-and-the-Illuminati thread) developed some more.
Absolutely. I had/have a lot planned for the Society and Matt.
Just my $.02 worth on "Outfoxed". I'll leave the in-depth analysis up to Todd and Aris.
When I saw Preston Vogel for the first time, I honestly thought that is was Owen. All the characters extremely complex; I never thought that it was a copout from an animation standpoint. I went right to wondering what Owen's hidden agenda was. All the other villains had a hidden agenda, why not Owen. His "I've got a secret" attitude was evident from "The Awakening".
By the end of the episode I started having doubts that Vogel was Owen, but I didn't entirely dismiss the idea until I watched "Golem". The amount of care that Vogel had to give to a very sick Renard was more time consuming that even Owen could handle.
While I was expecting a hidden agenda out of this episode, (how could I not, Xanatos was involved via Fox) I never expected it to be Fox's agenda which was her relation to Renard. While I definitely understood what the "Tests" were, my vocabulary is woefully inadequate, so I did not know that Renard meant Fox.
I was not surprised by a pregnant cartoon character. I grew up with the Flintstones; and Wilma being pregnant with Pebbles. Back then, knitting baby booties was the way to indicate that someone was expecting. (The last sentence is for those readers who are half our ages <g> Boy do I feel old)
Yeah, me too.
Obviously, Fox wasn't as ground-breaking as Wilma. But I think she's up there.
Interesting side note, Laura San Giamcomo and Jonathan Frake's wife Genie Francis were both expecting at the same time as Fox.
As I understand it, you wrote the beat sheets in response to an outline or script that was submitted to you. I really enjoy reading the summaries that you wrote; I am curious about the purpose of these summaries. Were you writing down what you interpreted the story to be from the script (thinking out loud on paper)? The way it is presented in the beat sheet, seems (to me at any rate) like most of the episode ideas are coming from you rather than the other way around.
It would be nice to see one of the scripts that you did a beat sheet on, but I can certainly understand if they no longer exist. Just seeing the evolution from Beat Sheet to final episode extremely interesting.
I don't do the beat sheets based on the scripts. I did them based on rough outlines from my writers and story editors. Then THEY did the scripts.
Since you aren't seeing the outlines... and you can't (at least not from me) since I don't have them anymore. It's hard to tell what ideas were coming from me and what was coming from the original outlines, or for that matter the writers' original premises or my original springboards. The best clues are when I say, "Change this to this." But mostly the whole thing needs to be viewed as an organic process. With multiple people involved. Writer/Story Editor/Supervising Story Editor (at minimum). Plus various people like Frank Paur kibitzing.
I know where the Phoenix Gate really came from. It came from the writer's of the Gargoyle Animated Series.
Okay.
Here's my "High Noon" Ramble
First of all, I like how the "Previously on Gargoyles…" recap was done. I liked Coldstone in his first two appearances and was glad to be seeing him again. Also it didn't give away the involvement of Demona, Macbeth and the Weird Sisters, which shocked the Hell out of me, but I'll get to that later.
First things first. The animation in this episode is breathtaking. I don't think it'd be a stretch to say that this is episode is animated more beautifully than any other… though that is saying a lot.
I like the opening scene with Othello and Desdemona. Also nice touch with the animators drawing real Scottish Heather, I read in a magazine article that the episode's writer (I forget who it is), had to actually fax a picture of Scottish Heather to an artist during production. It shows that more care was put into this show than any other.
Iago comes off quite menacing, even though his actions are out of spite. He can't have Desdemona, so he won't let Othello have any peace with her. When I first saw this I though Iago was dead after "Legion", so it was nice to him back.
Nice continuity with Hudson and Broadway reading, I was glad this was touched on again, most cartoons would just forget about it after one episode, but not this one. Also Elisa is great in this scene, really humble, but yes, she is more of a hero than she wants to be. Also, I liked Hudson's "hit a sack" line, maybe it was late for it, but I liked it and still like it.
Hmm, nice little touches on Lex's computer monitor. "Othello Program", "Desdemona Program", "Iago Program". You have to really look to catch these, and I'm sure I missed some. Were these your idea?
So Macbeth and Demona walk past Elisa in disguise. I have to say that I did not recognize either of them. For on thing the look we got of Demona as a human was so brief, and I wasn't expecting to see them again so soon. I liked the chase scene through the station, and as soon as they got to the Clock Tower I knew something dangerous was up. When it was revealed that that was indeed Macbeth, I thought the woman was Fleance or another mercenary that Macbeth hired. Of course I kicked myself for mistaking Demona for Fleance, considering how much I adore Demona. I guess I just wasn't paying attention to her, and focusing on Macbeth.
I figured that they stole Coldstone of course, since he was going to play a major part in this episode. Also I did like the costume change on Mac & D. I also really like Demona's green eyes as a human… once again, expect a lot of gushing towards her ;)
When Elisa asked how they got Coldstone out of there without being seen, I just assumed that Demona used some kind of cloaking spell on Macbeth's plane. Turned out I was right, though I didn't factor the Grimorum in. I was too busy trying to figure out why they were working together and how they found the Clock Tower.
The animation when Demona changes from her lovely human form into her lovely Gargoyle form is beautiful (though it looks extremely painful), and I was glad to finally find out the truth behind Puck's gift. It confused me for a while, I was expecting to be human in "Vows".
Even when under a spell, Demona and Macbeth still hate each other.
Michael Dorn does a great job with Iago/Coldstone's first two lines. He's a great actor.
Goliath and Elisa share a nice moment here, I like it, can't think of more to say about it.
I like the way the scene changes on the Moon, another really nice touch.
I really like the scene when they enter the mansion, the animation on their reflections in the camera is nice, as is Goliath tapping the camera with his wing. Nice to see that Goliath has learned a lot of the modern world by saying that Macbeth is probably watching them from a control room. I also like how they kick the door open in battle stance and quickly come out of it when they see the room is empty. Also like them using the room to their own advantage.
The Demona-Brooklyn fight is very well done, it moves really fast with Brooklyn not even having time to breathe. Nice show of her warrior skills.
Once again I like the continuity from "Lighthouse" especially with Macbeth and Broadway's lines and staging the fight in a library.
The villains are really smart in this episode. I was really impressed with Iago's cunning here… a shame we never got to see "Dark Ages". The trap was really clever as well.
Demona's "Sex Pot" scene. Well, you probably already know that I love it. I don't think it's out of character at all, someone earlier posted here a good reason for her to do that saying to Elisa "I'm prettier than you". If we get the show back, I hope to see her do more of these ;) I also like seeing her hail a taxi.
Now what I want to know is how did Demona manage to walk through an entire police station in her halter-top and loincloth and not be arrested for indecent exposure? Though there is nothing indecent about it ;) Okay, on to the next scene…
Very nice scene between Elisa and Morgan. I liked how you took a minor background character and turned him into a "real" person. Elisa looks good here also, very nice animation. She looks exhausted.
I still have to say I was not confused by nobody being able to see our villains at Belvedere Castle. I just figured that Demona was using an invisibility spell. Also I have to confess that until I got on the Internet, I never thought that Coldstone was re-animated stone. But now it makes perfect sense to me.
I love that line of the Sisters' "Even shadows must be true to their shade." Also, they have their correct hair colors when they say that line on my copy of the episode.
I love the way Elisa just walks past Demona, Macbeth and Coldstone without even glancing at them. Elisa took a big gamble here. Sure Macbeth has a code of honor, but not Demona. Demona could have just ignored Macbeth and shot her. But now on to one of my favorite scenes…
THE CAT FIGHT- Demona may fight like a rookie at first, but she quickly manages to grab her. I love Iago/Coldstone's line and Macbeth's. On behalf of all male "Gargoyles" fans every where, I thank you for this scene ;) Hmm, I had less to say about this scene than I thought.
Now here, the Sisters' hair is wrong, all blonde. But I still knew it was them, and then when they phase together, Desdemona has black hair. Oh well, this episode is so well animated that I can forgive a few mistakes.
I like the fight between Othello, Desdemona and Iago. Very nicely done. Also nice to see Othello realize that he can't let evil triumph just by his doing nothing.
The fight ended well, ooh, considering where Elisa kicked Demona before slamming her head into a statue… that's gotta hurt. Still was confused to see Macbeth rescue Demona here.
I also like the scene between Coldstone and Elisa. He has a great line before leaving. And nice use of the jogger to.
I actually thought it was out of character to here Demona call Elisa by her first name rather than "Maza" or "the Detective." I also raised an eyebrow when Macbeth mentioned the "primary objective."
When I saw the Grimorum, the Eye, and the Gate all laid out, things began to make sense. Also nice to see I was right that Demona used a cloaking spell earlier, but didn't suspect that she was using the Grimorum. Also liked seeing them asking the same questions I was asking… especially. "WHY ARE WE WORKING TOGETHER!"
The Weird Sister's finally explain everything and it all makes perfect sense. Nice scheme they had. Of course I had to wait about two months to learn what the "coming battle" was. Nice way to keep us in suspense.
Overall, I like this episode. Not one of the best, but still very good. A lot of nice character moments, and a nice epilogue to "City Of Stone", and foreshadowing of things to come. Though the wait was unbearable.
Interesting responses...
Actually, I think the Japanese Animators put those little touches into Lex's computer on their own. I vaguely recall there's also a Weisman Program.
Hey, I know how much you like viewer insight, so here goes:
GARGOYLES ROCKS. period. I didn't get it when I was seven. I missed all those subtleties and nuances that you put in there, but I see so clearly now! I wish that Toon Disney would air Deadly Force, but there all so stupid . "It's too violent" they say. They'll let Goofy fall of a cliff without a scratch and air it, but if they show someone getting shot and (realistically) having to go to the hospital they won't air it. What a bunch of crack heads.
Anyway, about what Titania whispered to Fox. I know what she said. She said, "All good Garg supporters go to The Gathering."
What a motherly message. Too bad Fox is a bad daughter.
* * So until Goliath plays for the Harlem Globe Trotters, I'll luv ya, Greg.
Hey, right back at ya, man.
A quick thing about OUTFOXED:
When I saw Vogel, a near-twin of Owen, I chuckled to myself and thought "Oh, there's gonna be something interesting behind that!"
Good.
My favorite smart ass responses.
<<Demona Taina writes...
1. Where did Demona get those gargoyles from in "City Of Stone"?
Greg responds...
1. Wall-mart.>>
Which was funny enough when I read it as Walmart, but then I realized just what a terrible pun it is...
and...
<<Aaron writes...
Y'know, it's amazing how many of my questions seem to end up in the Smart Ass Responses category.
Greg responds...
It's also amazing how many of my responses end up in that category. I wonder why that is? >>
Sigh.
I haven't asked you about the Magus' given name lately, have I?
I have nothing funny to say.
hi greg could u go to my chat room the addy is http://www.masquerade.com/main.htl my group sog would be very excited to see u there out meetings are every sunday at 8:00 pm eastern or standerd time i am there as demona there is also a macbeth etc and we all would love 2 see u there !
Generally, I don't have internet access on the week-ends. And at any rate, 8pm Eastern is 5pm Pacific, and that's time I spend with my kids. But thanks for the offer.
okay, Dirk, i have to agree with you about Sixth Sense, the movie was awful and i guess people today will forget about an hour and a half of crap if they get mildly surprised in the end, what a dumb movie.
i don't agree with you at all about your dislike of Coldstone and "High Noon". i admit that i think there should have been more time between "High Noon" and "City of Stone" and that viewers had to understand alot to understand this episode, but that doesn't make it a bad episode. one of the best things about "Gargoyles" is that there are so many stories, so many threads and sometimes they are told alone and sometimes those threads can come together to make a great episode. its so interesting when we see the Eye of Odin in "The Edge" and who would of thought we would eventually meet Odin himself, or when Mary and Finella take the Grimorum to hide it who would've thought that they'd meet a timedancing Brooklyn, the story may seem tossed together but its really all a great pattern that makes for a really neat series.
as for Coldstone, i think he is one of the best characters in the show, actually my favirote episode is "Reawakining" where Coldstone is created and most of my other favirote episodes have Coldstone including "High Noon" and "Possesions". Coldstone portrays one of the shows many lessons to learn, that there is good and evil in everyone. Coldstone not only shows this in his behavior, but also very literally in that he has good and evil souls within him. i'm not sure why you think he is silly, he always seemed to be a tortured soul to me, did you ever notice that he has something bad happen to him or a task forced upon him at the end of every episode he is in? i'm amazed that he keeps as good of an attitude as he does sometimes, it probably helps that Desdemona is by his side. the fact that Coldstone and Elisa have the same choice in this episode really gives this episode a good theme and it reminds me of what Goliath says later in "The Hound of Ulster", that being a hero is rarely easy. "High Noon" really shows that our heroes sometimes just don't want to be heroes and don't want to do things that they need to do, but they do it anyway because it is right and the people they care for need them.
i think both Coldstone and "High Noon" were great additons to the series and "Gargoyles" wouldn't be as interesting and fun without them.
Let me start by saying, I've never seen Sixth Sense. No opinion on that.
Thanks for the defense Matt.
Dirk asked if I could imagine this being the first episode. And my answer is of course, no. But it wasn't the first episode. And it had a "Previously on Gargoyles" clip thing to help new viewers understand. Plus, I feel anything that needed explaining got explained in the course of the episode. "Avalon II" is tough to get in a vacuum. "High Noon" isn't so much.
Musings on High Noon:
Point 1--I hate Coldstone. Quite a bit. He's so silly. I mean yes, Gargoyles is totally littered with silly things (Under Manhatten there is an abandoned industrial complex inhabited by flying electric catmen who are the protectors of the homeless. Silly.), but usually it's a case of silly things done well. The cyborg-undead-Cybil gargoyle is a) over the top. b) takes way too much explanation. and c) really never added much to the story.
Point 2--I hated the Sixth Sense. What a stupid movie. Up until the twist ending it appeared to be crappy storytelling. The pacing and the interaction between Willis and his wife seemed way off. They there is the surprise ending! Surprise! The storytelling was intentionally crappy! We end up with a crappy story with a surprise ending.
Basically, High Noon is the crappy coldstone episode with everybody vaguely off-character and Elisa being real tired.
Macbeth and Demona working together AND them knowing where the clan lives comes off as WOW this is out of character. Annoyingly so.
When they steal coldstone my thought is Huh? If I were going to loot the clock tower, Coldstone is the last thing I'd take.
And then, rather then puzzle over why these magic savy characters would steal a comatose robo-zombie rather than three of the most powerful magical items in the world, I dimiss it as another symptom of the apparent bad writing.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Apparent bad writing is the exact same as bad writing.
Furthermore, the important conflicts in this episode are very flat. Elisa's internal struggle comes off as why are they going out of the way to make her so tired? And after the Flagrant nonsense behavior of D&M, her "crisis of faith" gets lost as a little more bad characterisation.
And Coldstone I don't like. He's uninteresting, and the whole ostridge thing he does here just seems ungargoyle and makes me dislike him more.
Finally, this is a REALLY bad episode to reveal that the Wyrd Sisters aren't as benevolent as they appear. It seems so out of character from the previous movie, it's a slap in the face.
So the rundown is:
Demona: Behaving way out of character because a spell has been cast on her.
Macbeth: Behaving way out of character because a spell has been cast on him.
Elisa: Behaving signifigantly out of character because of sleep deprivation and dramatic necessity.
Othello: Not having the ability to develop his character prior to this episode, he is behaving notably different than how I would want and expect a protagonist gargoyle to behave.
The Weird Sisters: Behaving drastically different than what we had led to belive was their character.
Last negative thing I'm going to say: Putting this episode directly after City of Stone just makes it appear that much worse, and we really should have had some down time with Mac and Demona MIA.
Basically, it was FAR below par for a Gargoyles episode, but actually not all that bad.
Iago & Mac: This is Diverting. You have no Idea.
Big fun!
Morgan is so cool.
The Elisa getting no sleep could have been really neat, but It got lost in this messy episode.
Could you imagine this being your first episode!! To understand this episode you need to understand who and what Coldstone is, You need to have seen City of Stone for Macbeth and Demona's relationship to make any sense as well as to understand the Wyrd Sister's role in this. You need to have seen the mirror to get that Demona becomes human these days. And it would be nice to be familiar with the phoenix gate, eye of odin, and grimorum arcanorum so that the end makes sense. There's a lot going on.
What crawled up Iago's butt, anyways?
I don't know what this means but when watching Gargoyles... When I hear Frakes, I hear Xanatos; When I hear Sirtis, I hear Demona; When I hear Spiner, I hear Puck; But when I hear Dorn, I hear Worf! He's got a great voice, and definitely is the coolest thing about Coldstone, but it's distinct. By the same token, when ever I hear Keith's voice, I immediately hear Goliath. It was amusing hearing Goliath Narrating Jazz.
All and all, 3 out of 10.
I've said my piece.
Isaac Kelley
"All your base are belong to us."
Ooookaaaay.
Well, the one thing I agree with you on is that it probably would have been better if High Noon had come later in that Tier of stories.
Oh, and Morgan is cool.
But otherwise, hey, you are entitled to your opinion. But I just disagree with most of it. Oh, well.
i was reading the development files for the pilot and i noticed in most versios it was written that Hudson was not the trio's babysitter, Goliath is and Hudson wouldn't like it if he was forced to be their babysitter. i understand that Goliath is the clan leader and therefore responsible for all the gargoyles, but Hudson is the trio's last living rookery father, doesn't that give him some responsibility towards them? why would he be insulted to be a parental figure to the trio, afterall Goliath isn't their father, Hudson is...?
Good point. Keep in mind, that those old documents were a work in progress. The definitive version of the characters is what you saw on the screen. Not what was written over a year earlier.
Greg;
your response one time was quote, "... who can explain this crazy little thing called love?" (in reference to bronx and boudicah.)
I had a good laugh.
And you thought your smart-ass responses were getting lame!
Thanks. Out of context it still sounds lame. But maybe it was funnier at the time.
Here are some of my favorite smart-ass responses
Siren writes...
So Greg, which came first...The gargoyle or the egg?
Greg responds...
I did.
Why did Lex start a business?
Greg responds...
Because it was there.
Finding myself lost in that massive "Old Ask Greg Archive," I stumbled across a mention of a missing World Tour episode featuring Coldstone in the Himalayas. What would've happened there?
Greg responds...
An entire story.
Just thought that I might tell you that I was very amused (LOL), in fact, by your answer to the question about whether pigs can fly in the Gargoyles Universe ("I've got the bacon, do you have the catapult?") - particularly since I'd never imagined firing pigs from a catapult as a means of accomplishing that feat.
Greg responds...
Then you don't watch enough Monty Python.
In the episode the gathering (part 2) what did titania whisper to fox at the end of the episode. I have been wondering this for a long time.
Greg responds...
You and what army?
Oh, yeah. That army. <WAVES> "Hi, guys!"
How do gargoyles view Homosexuality?
Greg responds...
On cable, like the rest of us.
Hey Greg ^_^
I'm a huge E&G fan (Elisa and Goliath, but I'm sure you know that o.O) and I was wondering, in absolutely any way, would Goliath and Elisa EVER have kids? *waits for beating* >;)
Greg responds...
Admit it, for a huge E&G fan, you couldn't be bothered to check either the E or G archive and get your answer immediately. Instead you post a question here and wait over a month for a response that I've already posted MANY times before. Right?
Anyway, "kids" plural?
3. *DO* the other gargs need to shave?
4. If so, what do they shave with, particularly Goliath on the Avalon tour?
Greg responds...
3. Not Angela.
4. Superman checked in periodically, and volunteered his heat-vision.
What is it like for you to have so many people worshiping the ground you walk on?
Greg responds...
Pretty cool most of the time.
And then I get an embarrassing question like this one...
Well, that's enough. Other people had submitted some very good ones as well.
Thanks. Some of those are pretty funny, I guess.
Dear Greg,
I went through the Smart-Ass Responses Archive and hunted down my favorites. I'm cold, but I'm smiling.
1. The entire "What did Titania whisper to Fox?" controversy.
2. Wing asks, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop?"
Greg responds, "The world may never know."
3. "Frank Welker" makes the Stone of Destiny special.
4. Catapult + Bacon = Flying Pigs. And Todd Jensen _definetly_ doesn't watch enough Monty Python.
5. Ed asks, "What... could Sevarius possibly cook up next?"
Greg respnds, "Breakfast?"
6. "All cookies are true. Especially peanut butter cookies." One wonders if you've received some message from a peanut butter cookie.
7. The fate of the Pack Helicopter? "They turned it into a planter." Fuschias, right? They'd look pretty.
8. LSZ asks, "What new villains... would appear in Pendragon?"
Greg responds, "There's the amazing NEW GUY. He's terrifying."
9. Puck asks, "Are gargoyles realy real?"
Greg responds, "You misspelled 'really'." He did, he really did.
10. And the ever-popular, "Do gargoyles leave marks on hardwood floors?"
Greg responds, "There's a smart ass answer in here somewhere, but I just can't find it."
Joxter thought the answer was "Doing what?"
I know the real answer. Gargoyles are just like humans in that they leave marks on hardwood floors when they wear high heeled shoes. Ask any good contractor-- Ms. Dominique Destine has gone through several, I'm sure.
Okay, I'm done making a fool of myself for today. You can all go about your business now, nothing to see here.
At least no one can accuse us of not having a good time wasting time, right?
Greg,
I just thought to let you know, that I enjoy reading your movie reviews. You see way more movies than I do, so reading some of your thoughts about them is interesting to see whether I would agree if I've seen the movie or not, and to see whether if I should. Ebert and you would be a sight to see...
If I see more than you, than you must see next to none.
Once upon a time, Cary Bates and I saw like five movies a week. But that was back in the eighties. These days, I'm lucky if I see one movie a month.
But thanks for the kind words.
In response to Jim R.
Sorry to sound pompous
But our sun is a main sequence star and thus will never supernova. Our sun will as you say in about 6 billion years grow to a red giant and it may ingulf the Earth or it just may push the planets away from itself repsecting the relations ship of mass to gravity. The last stage in our sun's life will be the white dwarf and black dwarf stages and by then all life on earth will likely be dead. Except for Demona and Macbeth if they haven't killed eachother by now. Oberon's children will most likely not die either being that eternal beings don't die.
The timeline does not as yet extend out that far.
in response to "The One":
i've been thinking an awful lot about gargoyle genetics and biology lately and i have some theories, not ideas, personal theories.
in evolution, the weak do not survive to pass on genes, and the strong do. among other things this makes most beings of a species very similar in appearence, at least from outside that species. gargoyles are different obviously, even us humans can see major differences among them, like the ones you mentioned. the reason for this, i think, is because they have bypassed evolution by not raising their young individually, but communally. the strong gargs help in raising the weak gargs and vice versa, this means that strong and weak gargs make it to adulthood to have their own children, this also means that weaker traits arn't dying off and any physical mutations that occur are accepted and continue on. generally though, gargoyles are pretty similar if you look at bone structure or DNA, its like dogs, we've selectively breed them to look different or be able to do different things, but a Poodle is virtually identical to a St. Bernard in its DNA. the fact that gargoyles don't keep track of who's kid is who's also means that occasionally two cousin's or second cousin's will mate and this may cause mutations that further vary what the species looks like.
as for the rookery generations, as Greg as said, there are never actually biological brothers and sisters among a generation, the closest relation is cousins, i even did the math and found that an uncle and niece for instance can't be in the same generation. i have another personal theory that gargoyles, to prevent much inbreeding, biologically find gargoyles attractive that are very different looking from themselves. i know alot of people would say, "What about who they love?" and i agree, but don't we all have some biological prefrences?
i have no idea why the London gargs evolved the way they did, i'm anxious to see Greg's answer to that one...
ok, i'm done with my ramble, what do you think Greg?
I like it. I like it.
There may actually be a cosmetic mutation gene in Gargoyle DNA.
I'm not saying there is, but I'm not ruling out the possibility.
RAMBLE ON "OUTFOXED"
i'll agree with you that although the animation, sound and flashbacks were really annoying, the story really carries this episode.
i remember first seeing this episode very well and i remember wondering what had ever happened to Cyberbiotics and was glad to see that it wasn't just going to be a throwaway company in the series, its like you always say, what about the reprucussions to the raid on Cyberbiotics?
Vogel really confused me, i said to myself, isn't he alot like Owen? i knew it wasn't a coincidence, but had no idea what it was...
oh, and i'm glad Goliath made a new friend, its sad that he makes more enemies than friends, but i guess thats drama for you...
Fox is pregnant!!! wow!! what a shock! i prayed for the next nine months to fly bye, but looking back, i'm glad it didn't. what suspense... geeez.
finally, the moral of the episode: integrity and responsibility. i whole-heartely agree with both you and Renard. its not easy, its "a daily struggle" and even the noble and strong like Goliath have problems with it.
i sometimes wonder what would've happened if Renaud had seen Demona flying around and captured her... i doubt his speech would've done as much for her! he probably would've turned her over to the "proper authorities" i think, that would have been fun!!! hahaha!!!
I think Demona can fake integrity with the best of them. She's a survivor. And not just because of the Weird Sister's spell.
I had a nightmare last night, Mr. Weisman, and it was about you. In it, you died, and in one of the suckiest ways, too. You fell backwards off a bunk-bed ladder and cracked your skull. It was so horrible! I saw it in slow-motion over and over again; you falling down, your mouth gaping open in a scream, then, "BOOM, CRACK," and I think there was blood coming out of your mouth when you were lying on the floor...you looked so pitiful and helpless. You weren't even that high up (about 2 or 3 feet off the ground)! I wasn't there, but somehow I saw that event (you know how weird dreams can be). I remember seeing somewhere in a comment room and on the news that you had died, and then I was flashed with the image of your horrific death. I felt so bad! I was thinking about how you weren't going to be able to answer the question I asked you yesterday, or any question for that matter. It broke my heart to think that, if a "Gargoyles" movie was going to come out, you wouldn't be there to see it or critique it; and how you'd never be able to work on another show if you were given leave to. I mean, you fall 2 or 3 measly feet off a ladder and die! What a horrible way to end your life! It must have been one of those dreams where you couldn't tell whether it was a dream or not, because I woke up thinking you were dead and how badly it sucked. I was thinking, "Wait a minute IS he dead?"...And trying to remember if someone had said you were or not. Then finally, I got over my disorientation and remembered you were NOT. Please don't think I'm crazy or anything. I'm not sure what brought this on. Probably partly because of the injury that caused Dale Earnhardt's death(a fractured skull), and that somehow incorporated itself into my dream. I really don't know why you were in it. Mr. Weisman, Dear, Sweetie, even though I don't know you personally and vice versa: would you do me a favor and PLEASE, please, BE CAREFUL around LADDERS(especially bunk-bed ladders) or ANYTHING else. Maybe you should wear a helmet or something when you climb one (yeah…I know what you're thinking, but still). If you die should from something stupid I will be VERY unhappy with you for not heeding my advice. So BE CAREFUL, please, don't make me into a psychic.
I am immune to bunkbed death, so never fear.
As kids, my sister and I -- and later, when she got older and got her own room -- my brother and I shared a bunkbed. Being the oldest, I had the top bunk.
Once, late at night, my dad heard a loud thump. He came into our room and found me sleeping on the floor. I had fallen out of the top bunk without waking. He picked me up and put me back in bed. I never woke up.
The next morning, he came into our room and found me asleep on the floor AGAIN! I had fallen again, again without waking up.
[Of course, on one level, this may explain a lot.]
So anyway, have no fear. And as for the rest of you. Don't get any ideas.
Still, I'm keeping track of ideas for future contests once this 2198 contest is over.
Write Greg Weisman's obituary sounds like morbid fun.
Finally here…
City Of Stone Part Four
I expected Bronx to protect Elisa from Demona. Also liked hearing her tell Demona her plan the old villain gloating bit, but to someone who couldn't really stop her. I was concerned when she said she was going to shoot Bronx. I wonder if that was necessary, she could've used a good pet, or would Bronx always perceive her as an enemy?
I didn't expect Macbeth to step out from behind the tapestry either I must say. I expected him to show up, I just wasn't sure when. Nice touch on him not caring about the fate of the city, or our heroes for that matter. He's still a noble man, but extremely flawed.
Fade into the Flashback…
Another magnificent fight scene well animated, Demona was again magnificent, but the music really made it stand out. I wasn't surprised to see Canmore in the Hunter's mask leading an army; I knew that coming since the last episode. Also, I wonder why Demona's chosen weapon was a mace, it was the weapon that was used to shatter her clan. Was this a conscious decision on your part?
I love that moment between Demona and Macbeth, it's the happiest we've seen her since… ever. The two have really become good friends, and I especially liked Macbeth addressing her as "my Lady", clearly seeing Gargoyles as the noble beings they are, and Demona as she was before completely falling into darkness. I often wonder what would have happened had Demona not been eavesdropping in the next scene.
It is this scene in which Bodhe disgusts me more than any that have come before. While his position is understandable, he also has no idea what he is talking about. Canmore wasn't there to destroy the Gargoyles. I applauded Luach for dismissing the plan, and it was always clear to me that Macbeth had no intention of betraying Demona. If only Demona had eavesdropped for a little longer.
You're right, despite their age; Macbeth and Gruoch are still a sexy couple.
The battle is intense and brutal, but very well animated, and the music is great also.
I like the confrontation between Macbeth and Canmore, and the way Macbeth not recognizing Canmore ties in with Demona not recognizing Gillecomgain. Macbeth offering Canmore mercy was a nice touch, because in a small way he is justified, Duncan's crimes were not his crimes. Demona turning on Macbeth was predictable, she's always been one for revenge. It's a sad to their friendship end over a misunderstanding, I always believed that Macbeth would never betray her, so did other people I showed this episode to.
Canmore loses any and all credibility the instant he stabs Macbeth in the back. The ultimate act of cowardice. Of course Demona falls down dead as well, and with Gruoch crying over her husband's body, it made for a very dramatic scene. Then we learn that Canmore destroyed Demona's clan, I don't know who's worse, Gillecomgain, Duncan or Canmore. Also, the soldier with Canmore is not MacDuff, doesn't look at all like him. Canmore spares Gruoch because he has no quarrel with her, but I wonder how much longer she lived. Speaking of Canmore's quarrels, I wonder why Demona became an object of his hatred and that of his descendents. One would think it would be Macbeth.
I like Luach's reaction to finding his father dead, and his declaration of justice. Like you, I also like to think that Bodhe died a hero's death. He's not a bad man, but a flawed one just trying to survive.
I like the way the Sisters call this "the fate Demona has made for herself" because that's exactly what it is. Upon first watching this, I knew that Demona believed Gruoch that this was her own fault, just wouldn't admit it verbally, she admitted by sparing Gruoch as you said.
The revelation over what the terms of the spell were was a good one. I figured out most of it, but the fact that one must slay the other for both to die, well it was quite heavy and dramatic. I know Demona has no intention of slaying Macbeth, but I wonder how long it took for Macbeth to become suicidal.
The final farewell between Macbeth and Gruoch is one of the most emotional things I ever saw, and still is today. It very nicely parallels their breakup in Part 2, only with no hope of reconciliation. The sun rising behind them as Macbeth walked away was a nice touch, usually the dawn of a new day is supposed to bring hope, but here it only adds to the tragedy.
Fade back to the Present…
Macbeth's "I have hunted you through the centuries for my vengeance" was delivered extremely well by John Rhys-Davies, the man was perfect for the role. And Demona expresses a sentiment I felt since Part 1. "Take off that mask, you aren't fooling anyone. Macbeth."
You'll be pleased to know that they fixed the mistake of the mouth on Xanatos's helmet moving as he speaks. I taped "City" from a later airing.
I'm really fond of Demona and Macbeth's exchange. "You blame me, I blame you. Aren't you tired of talking about it?" Leads to some questions, did they ever fight before, I'm sure they encountered each other a few times since 1057. Also like Macbeth's "revenge is a dish best eaten cold" line. Very nicely done. They're fight is also fun to watch, particularly them fighting over the gun. I agree that the collapsing floor could've looked better, but I like it.
I like Xanatos's this is bad line, it was delivered really well by Jonathan. Nice under current of fear which we don't normally get from him. My initial reaction to X saying that Demona was the only one who could save the city was "well you're screwed."
I also really liked watching Goliath trying to stop Mac & D's fight, and them both turning around and punching him. The second fall was done really well. Nice touch having Goliath help Xanatos during the fall.
The scene with Macbeth rising to his feet and lifting Demona into his arms prepared to impale her is great. Goliath stops him to save the city, but also because I think he still has feelings for her, more on this in the next paragraph or so. The Sisters also play a nice part here, even though they're full of it, still nice. Macbeth's "I'm just so tired" line is great, and nicely sums Macbeth current feelings quite well.
I like the next scene, Demona just keeps trying to avoid the questions by the Sisters, but they're breaking her down, just as they need to. Goliath also plays a nice role, begging her to end the cycle of vengeance, because I don't think he's yet given up on her. And of course, "the access code is alone", is probably my favorite scene in the entire series, it speaks volumes. Powerful stuff. I could go on about this one part forever… and extremely regret not participating in that contest.
The Xanatos scene is great, nice seeing him break a sweat, and I like his remark towards Bronx. Some very well placed humor.
Demona comes out of her trance and has not changed. Goliath's "you have learned nothing" line speaks volumes, and here was where I thought that Goliath finally gave up on her as opposed to "Vows", I think he would have come to forgive her eventually had she admitted she was wrong and had her epiphany here. I didn't think it was too late for them, but it finally was.
I also got a chuckle out of Demona being overpowered by children, I knew they weren't children, but it was still a funny image.
I love the Sisters' "they are our children" line, and the scene with them leaving with Demona and Macbeth was well done. It left me wanting to know more about them, and going crazy waiting three months to find out. I guess Hudson was right about impatience being the curse of youth.
I liked the affect of the sky being set ablaze, Xanatos speaks for me when he says "Magnificent" here.
The reunion between Elisa and the clan was touching, very nice. I also liked Xanatos shaking Owen's hand, very nice. The two always struck me as friends more or less.
I liked the final exchange between Goliath and Xanatos, very nice. Though I always figured that's why Xanatos kept them around, he's not a wasteful man. Great character. They're all great characters.
Well, what else can I say about this 4-parter. Well, it was "City Of Stone" that finally got be addicted to "Gargoyles", I watched it regularly before because I knew the show was very good, but this 4-parter made me into a fan. So it holds a very special place with me, and still continues to be my favorite of the "Gargoyles" tales.
Great job to you and all other's involved.
I'll do my rambles for "High Noon" and "Outfoxed" tomorrow.
Wow. Thank you.
My ramble-response to "Outfoxed".
Truth to tell, I honestly don't recall now (and again, this is kind of embarrassing) what my initial response was to Vogel. In fact, I may not even have really noticed the fact that he does look rather like Owen with dark hair until the two of them were standing in the same room in "The Gathering Part One".
I don't think that I really caught on to the possibility of Fox being Renard's daughter until they came out and said it at the end of the episode, but I did like it, and looking back over the episode in later showings, I did see that it was foreshadowed. Renard's name, for example (I'm amazed that that didn't set off the little warning bells in my head). And the way that Fox was talking about Renard in the karate sequence; she was showing familiarity with the man which indicated that he definitely wasn't just a professional rival. And, of course, Renard's mention of Jeanine and Anastasia.
I very much liked the scene between Goliath and Renard; it was well-written, and, oddly enough, mildly amused me in a sense. Yes, I know that it's really a serious one, but what I found half-amusing about it was this: Renard comes face to face with a living gargoyle, a being straight out of myth and legend, and proceeds to lecture it as though it was a human. It would be like Bigfoot crashing into somebody's house and the person living inside telling Bigfoot off for not wiping its feet on the mat or something of that nature. Obviously Renard's strong beliefs about personal responsibility were enough to make him forget that Goliath wasn't an everyday kind of being the moment that he heard the "not my fault" speech.
I also found the revelation that Owen and Sevarius had once worked for Cyberbiotics an intriguing one, and liked the "we are friends" part at the end; I found it quite moving. I also very much enjoyed (and agree with) Goliath's comments on robots and how they can know only what they're programmed to know; I'll say more about that on another occasion (when we get to "Walkabout" and I give my ramble-response to it).
I didn't have any problem with Vogel's change of heart, by the way; it did make sense, given his respect for Renard (particularly his uncomfortableness aboout betraying an employer who had always respected his privacy).
The big revelation that got my attention: Fox being expectant. I definitely knew that I wanted to see what her and Xanatos's son would be like. Of course, I wasn't even expecting the developments that Alex would be getting in "The Gathering".
And I didn't mind the flashbacks, either (actually, I did enjoy them a little, because of what they meant: an acknowledgement of past events in the series).
Glad it all worked for you. But at that point, how'd you know they'd be having a son?
City Of Stone Part Three
Ok, so Elisa is facing in the wrong direction, oh well. Every masterpiece has at least one flaw or two.
I like when Owen becomes flesh again, the animation is beautiful as he quickly examines the phone and even more quickly regains his composure. "Good morning". I also like Xanatos's "then we'll just have to set the sky ablaze" line. It's the delivery by Jonathan Frakes, as well as the animation, which shows the confidence Xanatos has. He isn't even concerned over whether or not he can find away. I don't know if that's arrogance or what, but it's a great moment.
The scene with Travis Marshal and that woman is great. I just love the way Travis reacts to her statement about never watching television. She's probably one of those people who blames television for everything that has gone wrong in society.
Flashback to Scotland 1040…
The scene between Macbeth and Duncan is great. Duncan especially seems to believe that Macbeth is not disloyal when Mac saves his life. It's sad though, because it seemed like Duncan was willing to bury whatever grudge he bore Macbeth right then and there.
Of course, Duncan is still every bit the jerk that he's always been, about to destroy several sleeping Gargoyles like that for no real reason, but what else can be expected from one who took the mask of the Hunter. Macbeth of course begs him to spare them and any thanks Duncan has for Macbeth seems to go out the window. I wonder what led to his hatred of Gargoyles.
The scene with the Weird Sisters is great, nice to see an element from Shakespeare's play in the story. The scene was animated beautifully as well. Duncan again disgusts me. While it would be easy to blame the Sisters for Duncan's later actions, I think that is letting him off too easy. Your daughter pegged Duncan perfectly, paranoid and stupid.
Of course we have another slaughter of sleeping Gargoyles. Duncan is a complete coward, to slaughter Gargoyles that have done nothing to him. I liked Demona's "this cave will be your tomb" line. Kind of wish it were. I like Demona's little speech as the escape from the cave, well written, poetic sounding, and Marina did a great job with the vocals as always.
The scene with Macbeth and Bodhe is very well done. I often don't know what to make of Bodhe, he's not a bad person, he's just a coward, but he means well. Macbeth's good bye to Gruoch and Luach is very touching, especially his "the journey will be brief" line. Macbeth is as noble a character as any other.
Demona and Macbeth have another great scene together. They play off each other so well, as if they were destined to fight side by side. I don't blame Demona for being extremely hesitant. But at least she recognizes that Macbeth is an exception to her rule by not killing him, which says a lot for her.
Enter the Weird Sisters. This is another beautiful scene. The spell they placed on Mac & D was extremely well animated, I figured out what the spell mostly did. I knew this was where they became immortal, it was obvious. Though I forgot those brief scenes in Part 2 where they felt each other's pain. It was also great to see Macbeth learn the truth about his father's murder.
I thought Gruoch's "I hope you have not made a bad bargain" line was pretty clear. It would have been nice to see her run a finger through his hair as you wanted, but the message wasn't lost. Wasn't lost at all. Also, Demona looks good as she enters Macbeth's tent. Another nice moment between Macbeth and Gruoch, made even nicer by Demona eavesdropping. It was a very romantic scene, and I could easily tell she was thinking about herself and Goliath… and as you said, with herself in Macbeth's place. Demona wore the pants in that relationship… so to speak ;)
The battle is very nicely done. Makes me think of "Braveheart". I especially liked when the Gargoyles showed up and helped Clan Moray deal with Duncan's troops. Demona herself was magnificent there. I cracked a smile at Macbeth's "you fight like a demon line", I knew it was only a matter of time now till she was named. He was correct to. Demona is definitely someone I'd want to take into battle to fight at my side.
At last it was time for the confrontation I was waiting to see. Macbeth and Duncan's fight was also great. I clapped when Demona grabbed MacDuff and bashed him into the mountainside. I always assumed she killed him there, I don't remember him being in part 4. I'll check when I get to it.
The death of Duncan was well done, I know you couldn't show Macbeth run him through, but burning like that seemed worse, I hope it took him a while to die. As you can tell, I hate him.
Demona standing on that cliff with Macbeth as they were cheered was another nice moment. She seemed glad to be at Macbeth's side there. Too bad it didn't last.
Bodhe advising Macbeth to slay Canmore was despicable at best, but he was right about him eventually being trouble. Macbeth had to be aware that banishing him to England was a bad idea as well. There was no easy way to handle that situation either. Who was it that said, "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."? Demona showed commendable restraint in not killing him, for I am sure if she did kill him, she would not have been reprimanded. But I wonder, today would she kill a child? We know she's perfectly willing, able and eager to kill. But would she kill a child?
The coronation scene was perfect. Macbeth wanted to deliver a golden age between human and gargoyle, meant it, and I'm sure was successful for the next seventeen years. I knew Macbeth was going to name her here, and was glad Demona liked her name… I'm rather fond of it as well. The crowd cheering her nice, it seemed like she was ready to drop her grudge against humanity once and for all. Though I'm surprised we didn't see Macbeth crown Gruoch queen. Was she ever even crowned queen?
Nice touch throwing the Sisters into the police station. I liked how they were everywhere.
The Elisa-Owen scene was fun, reminded me of when Owen wouldn't let her into the building back in "The Edge". Nice position they were frozen in.
The scene between the Gargoyles and Xanatos is also very good. X's plan makes sense and seems quite logical. The distrust on Goliath's face is priceless, but who can blame him for not trusting Xanatos. I thought it was obvious that Demona was standing behind the tapestry I have to say. I also like Goliath's concern for Elisa as they depart the castle.
Demona is magnificent as she steps out into the Great Hall mace in hand. There's just a certain air about her, the confidence, the power she's radiating. Of course, I find it hard to believe that there are secrets that Xanatos doesn't know about the castle considering he took it apart and rebuilt it piece by piece, but hey, I don't mind.
The cliffhanger is a very good one, and left me extremely excited for the conclusion of this great multi-parter.
End Part Three
Yeah, Gruouch was Queen.
City Of Stone Part Two
Time to pick up where I left off. I'm watching my tape of the episode and pausing to write my responses.
Xanatos has a really good scene as he saves his and Fox's life. Wonder how he explained the helicopter in the middle of the street. His reaction to seeing all those people turned to stone was priceless. I don't think we've ever seen him gasp before. On the plus side, the city is safer for a billionare like him to take a stroll through without getting mugged… though I'd almost feel sorry for any mugger that tried to take him on ;)
"The nose is all wrong." Wonder where exactly Brooklyn was looking whenever he and Elisa were in the vicinity of each other ;). Love that line though.
Goliath has good instincts. And it's nice to see Hudson out of the Clock Tower. I noticed that Broadway has no speaking lines throughout the entire four-parter. Was Bill Fagerbakke unavailable?
It's nice to see Jeffrey Robbins again. I always liked him, and wished we'd gotten to see more of him. I wonder what Hudson told him later about the events. Goliath shows some fast thinking by having Lexington turn off the sound on Robbins' TV set, which is nice to see. He's not as slow as some people think.
Impatience is the curse of youth eh? I suppose that is true. Okay, I confess, I'm somewhat impatient myself.
I liked the explanation on needing to see and hear magic in order to be affected. But that makes me wonder, is it like that with all magic? If say the Archmage were to throw a bolt of lightning at Robbins, would he be immune?
Brooklyn was being quite rash, but it was understandable, this was one of Demona's more horrific schemes. Though Goliath was smart to keep Brooklyn by his side. Had Brooklyn went after Demona by himself here, I think he would have been killed.
I have to admit, I really enjoyed the scene with Demona smashing those statues. I guess I'm a little sadistic, but hey, I have a sick sense of humor. One of my favorite lines was; "Another human bites the dust, or rather turns to dust." When she blasted the statue's arms, well let's just say I wouldn't want to see the result come sun rise. Also, I enjoyed her smug attitude when she was leaning on the statue of Margot Yale's brunette look-a-like.
Now we fade into the flashback…
The battle between Demona and the Hunter is pretty good. Demona looks younger here than in the flashbacks in part 1. Though I can tell from the way she's fighting that she's older. She's still very good, but I think if this was 994, she'd have taken him easily. Or am I underestimating the Hunter?
Bodhe does come off as a coward here, but I can understand where he's coming from. I wonder why Duncan ordered the marriage… probably to piss off Macbeth. I wonder why he hates him, Macbeth never displayed any disloyalty.
The scene between Macbeth and Gruoch at Lunfanan Hill is of course priceless. I can tell just how much they both love each other. Gruoch is willing to risk Duncan's wrath to be with the man she loves, and Macbeth willing to break his own heart to protect her. There are no easy answers to this dilemma, but that's one reason why I love this show. There are no easy answers.
The wedding between Gillecomgain and Gruoch is beautifully directed. Duncan being the first to cheer before everyone else does, and the fact that Duncan is the only one that is smiling is amusing. Macbeth isn't the only one who didn't want to see them together. The music is extremely well edited as Macbeth leaves the Great Hall and Duncan gives his evil smirk. It's right here where I'd really like to punch him in the face, and I think it's safe to say that I'm not alone here ;)
I do like the scene between Duncan and Gillecomgain here. Though the guy is scum, I cannot help but almost mentally cheer Gillecomgain for his last remark to Duncan. "Think well before you risk my defiance Prince Duncan." Sort of like supporting the lesser of two evils, not that I support Gillecomgain though. Okay, next subject…
Duncan's scene with Macbeth is a good one. You're right, he is such a manipulative bastard. "Gargoyles" certainly has no shortage of them. This guy will do whatever he has to do to get what he wants. Once again, I'd like someone to knock his teeth out. Preferably Macbeth.
I like the scene between the Sisters and Demona, nicely parallels the first one, and ties back in with her alliance with the Captain quite nicely.
The rose scene is also one of my favorite moments, it's simple, but it has a lot of weight to it at the same time.
The fight between Macbeth and Gillecomgain is well done, though Gille himself should have learned not to get overconfident. Though using Gruoch as a human shield is probably one of the most despicable acts I've ever seen one of the series' villains commit. But it works, Gille has Macbeth pegged.
I really like the fight between Demona and the Hunter, very well done, and Demona proves how resourceful she is, especially when she uses the torch as a weapon. And then comes one of my favorie scenes…
Gillecomgain: Tis your handy work. Done when I was but a boy. Remember?
Demona: No.
I love that scene. Takes the high and mighty ego-maniac Gillecomgain, and reduces him to an insignificant spec. And also takes the most important event of his life and reduces it to nothing. Which is what Gillecomgain always was. He was a peasant and a pawn of Duncan, nothing more, nothing less. The only significance that came from him was the mask of the Hunter. The mask is significant, however he is not.
I also liked seeing Macbeth save Demona, and seeing her actually thank him and be sincere about it. The two of them work well together, lots of chemistry, whether as friends or enemies.
The wedding between Macbeth and Gruoch, something everyone except Duncan was happy to see, and a real celebration, nice contrast to the earlier wedding. Nice to hear here referred to as Lady Macbeth, kind of wish she was referred by that title more often.
The scene with Duncan in the tower is good. I wonder, did he pull the mask of the Hunter off of Gillecomgain's corpse, or did Gille have another one in his sock drawer? But this scene was good foreshadowing of things to come.
Fade back to the present.
The scene with Goliath and Brooklyn finding the shattered pieces of the people was wonderfully eerie, made more so by the appearance of the Weird Sisters. I was able to tell that Goliath was talking about killing Demona here. But I wonder if he would ever have gone through with it, had the Sisters not given him that lecture.
The fight scene between Demona and Xanatos was good, though I bet Xanatos wishes he has his armor on here. Would've given him an edge. Also liked seeing X toss his weapon aside to save Owen. Of course he was practically throwing his own life away also, as I'm sure Demona was about to finish him off before Macbeth burst in. Looks like Xanatos owes Macbeth his life.
I did raise an eyebrow when Mac shot Demona and felt her pain. Was unsure of what to make of it, but quickly forgot about it and enjoyed the fight scene between Mac & D. Very nice, especially watching Mac ride on top of her.
I'll confess, I didn't get that Xanatos thought he'd be able to break Demona's spell by shutting off the broadcast. I got that on my third viewing of it. Of course now, I've seen "City" a hundred times and it seems clear to me.
Mac & D were both extremely well animated as he continued to ride her, and she tried to lose him. I love Demona's war-cry. Wish we heard it more often ;)
I love the scene between Xanatos and Goliath. X is so smug and in control, while Goliath is furious and considers killing him. "Do you want vengeance or a solution?" I love that line. Xanatos seems to come off as the hero of this 4-parter. Seeing him and Goliath shake hands was weird, but made sense. I'm sure it did from Xanatos's POV. Though for Goliath, it must have been like making a deal with the devil himself.
Budgets occasionally forced us to save money by not giving lines to a character who was present but didn't really have anything valuable to add.
But didn't Broadway have lines in Part One and Part Four?
Robbins would not be immune to Archmage lightning, because the magic creates the lightning. Once created it's free to zap as many blind men as it can.
Duncan wasn't trying to piss of Mac in marrying Gruoch to Gille so much as he was (or so he thought) securing Gille's loyalty and reducing Mac's political clout. Pissing Mac off Mac a side benefit.
Here's my own "City Of Stone" ramble. I decided to wait till you were done rambling about all 4 parts and do mine together. I'm also watching the 4-parter as I type this. This is, IMO, the best multi-parter, and story told in all sixty-six episodes of "Gargoyles". It is an extremely powerful and dramatic story.
Here we go…
"City of Stone Part One"
First that title, it is a very powerful and dramatic title, just like the story it is attached to. While it doesn't really cover the flashbacks, I don't think it really needs to. It still sets the mood quite well. Also, I agree that it does sound like a movie title.
The opening scene works quite well. Matt does make a good negotiator, I wonder if does that often in hostage situations, or they bring in someone else. Nice use you make of Brendan and Margot, though I'm surprised there aren't more hostages in a building like that. It is New York after all. I've always been a little curious about the terrorists' cause, but I understood that this was not the place to tell us. Here's hoping you're able to tell us here soon, or show it to us in the show's revival, or in one of the Spin-offs.
Of course the Gargoyles bust in, and you have a great battle scene… though I think it would have benefited with better animation of course. I was quite disgusted with Brendan and Margot in this scene (among their other scenes on other episodes), being more afraid of the Gargoyles, than the woman who had them tied up with guns to their heads. But I love Brooklyn's line to them. Very appropriate indeed.
Ah the Sisters. They did appear to be rather odd here, but they were supposed to. I wasn't sure what to make of them, but I decided to let time tell. I was able to easily figure out that they were talking about Demona…
Fade to the next scene, and we see her. I like the way she was drawn and animated here. There's a lot of beauty and grace here. I love Demona as you know, so be prepared for a lot of compliments to her throughout my own ramble.
It's nice to see what the Captain and Demona discussed after Goliath left them, and didn't feel stuck in at all. I like the Captain and always thought that he was a good man, though he has made mistakes… haven't we all. I did notice what you talked about way back when I first watched it that the animators messed up on Demona a few times. It's particularly obvious when she grabs the Captain. But she looks normal again, and we get that gorgeous shot of her profile with the moon glowing behind her.
And then there's the scene with Othello and Desdemona. Another nice scene, and it makes me wonder how close Demona was to them as opposed to her other rookery siblings and clan members, because it seems like she was deliberately seeking them out. Also, I would have expected Iago to be perching near them, since his parts also get mixed up with theirs leading to Coldstone. This is also a powerful scene for Demona, since she's no in control of the situation anymore. Damned if she did, and damned if she didn't. I often wonder how I would have handled it.
The scene where Demona turns to stone on the beach with the tear running down her face was beautiful.
The next scene is also quite powerful. Demona's returning to the castle where we already know what's happened, but the massacre is still as horrific as it was in "Awakening", perhaps even more so now. I think even Demona realized what had happened but was in denial. She wouldn't have hid if otherwise.
Of course she can't face Goliath, but I wonder how different things would have been had she the courage to face him there. Goliath's "angel of the night" scene is not as dramatic because there should have been more flames animated in the castle like in "Awakening part 1 and 2", so when the stock footage is inserted, it looks out of place.
I wonder what Demona was doing while Goliath and the others were battling the Vikings.
Ah yes, the infamous "What have I… what have they done to you!?" Perhaps the single defining quote of who Demona has become. It is perfect; it was also perfect for Jon Canmore, but more on that when we get to "Hunter's Moon".
I also wonder why she didn't take the eggs from the Princess, the Magus and Tom. I'm sure it would have been easy enough to accomplish. My guess is that it was out of shame. For when they hatched, each time she looked at those hatchlings, she'd see the clan she left to die.
Her farewell to Goliath is very emotional, and the tear on the stone works well again.
The scene where we meet Gillecomgain is a great one, and it works well with Demona. We saw her just two seconds ago mourning, and now we see her in a mad rage. One small, action creating a thousand year legacy. Sad but true.
And we fade back to the present with another gorgeous shot of Demona gliding, and the look on her face is not the look of someone who is going to turn the city's population to stone, and massacre innocent people, but rather a look of sadness. In that one brief scene, she looks sadder than any other time we saw her. Including the aftermath of the massacre. Her silence speaks much louder than her sobs and her tears.
The spell casting scene was great. Sure you cheated a little in having Demona trap Owen, but I don't care. It would have messed up the tone of the scene and it's pacing. I hope I'm correct in assuming that the wire Demona used to bind Owen was iron.
The Sisters themselves get a good scene; I of course was wondering what it was they were waiting for. I also wonder what people made of Demona. Eccentric woman in a Halloween costume perhaps? Wonder how PackMedia explained that later.
The second flashback. The scene where he Gargoyles break into the mill is especially dark, and when Demona raises her mace and kills them, well… what can I say. I do think the animators made Demona look too old here. She looks younger in the flashbacks in part 2. But I imagine that the years have been miserable and stressful to say the least.
Is it just me, or to the other Gargoyles seem terrified of Demona. I sometimes wish we got to know some of them better. Did Demona call any of them friends? And the Sisters show up and are quite mysterious. I like the way Luna is animated, ever the mystic. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer's" Drusilla sometime reminds me of Luna in that scene when she has a vision and acts all mystical. Again I think Demona's age was overdone, especially with that close-up right before the commercial.
I like the scene with Findlaech, Bodhe, Gruoch and young Macbeth. Truly love at first sight, it's rare but it happens. You described Bodhe's actions in this scene far better than I ever could.
The Hunter was introduced magnificently. He definitely came off as dramatic and powerful (I know I keep using those words in my descriptions, but that's what the whole of CoS is), and the fight scene is great… "City" is full of great action scenes. Findlaech's death did not shock me, since it seemed obvious her was going to die. Don't know why, it just felt right. I wasn't even well versed in history and Shakespeare back then. Demona looked quite frightening when she advanced on the Hunter. I enjoyed seeing her save Macbeth and Gruoch, nice to see she hasn't fallen completely into darkness yet. The more I think about it, the more I think you're description of her as a romantic makes sense. She's a character full of passion.
Duncan comes off as a real bastard, and only becomes more of one as "City Of Stone" progresses. I was not at all surprised to see that Gillecomgain was under that mask. Knew it the second I first saw the Hunter. Also liked how the Sisters just seemed to be everywhere.
Fade back to the present with Macbeth donning the mask of the Hunter. Demona will express my sentiments for me about this in Part 4. But I was wondering why he was wearing it.
The scene with David and Fox in the helicopter was nice. Always good to see those two together. Does she always fly him around, or does he have a personal pilot. Also, Fox sounded a little different. Was that Laura doing her voice in this episode? Also, I liked the scenario you presented if Demona had been telling the truth, and would David do anything to give her back that one-minute when she died. It's moot, but it's a dramatic scenario anyway.
I rather liked Owen's urgency. Nice to see him kind of losing it.
As for why Elisa's facing the wrong way… I don't care. It's still a good cliffhanger.
End Part One.
Need to take a break, I'll do the other parts a little later.
Yes, that was Laura doing Fox.
Great ramble, Greg. Looking forward to the rest.
My personal favorite Smart-ass response:
Question-
How weak is angela?
Answer-
How weak are YOU?
That was less funny than deserving, you know?
Comments on "High Noon"
Recognizing Demona and MacBeth> I didn't the first time watching, but you knew something was fishy. The handcuffs, the expressions.
I wasn't as worried that our heroes wouldn't survive as to why Demona and MacBeth were working together. And whether Coldstone was going to realize that he couldn't bury his head in the sand.
No, Elisa wouldn't bury her head in the sand. She voices the option because it does exist but she knows she won't give into it.
Michael Dorn is a great voice actor.
Recognizing Demona in Dominique> I didn't until MacBeth called her Demona. And I can understand Elisa not recognizing her. Uniform blindness (the situation where all the person notices is the uniform) and then she knocked out. But I also buy Elisa almost recognizing her. It's the opposite of what happened in the "Mirror". Demona recognized the gargoyle Elisa right off the bat.
This episode was one of the best animated. I love Goliath tapping the camera with his wing. And Elisa's tired eyes.
Demona's sexpot poses> Not exactly in her character, but they work in a "I'm a better-looking human than you" way.
Desdemona being taken over by the Weird Sisters. That confused me because of the hair. If the animators hadn't gotten the colors right, I wouldn't have been confused. But going back and rewatching it and listening to how the dialouge is phrased, it becomes more obvious.
Elisa and Demona's catfight is great! <G> The gals one-on-one, Goliath's life on the line, and that whole "I'm going to beat the crap out of you" attitude.
The jogger> I love the continuity stuff. It sets Gargoyles apart from other cartoons. And I love that guy. I used him in my first Gargoyles fanfic in similiar circumstances--wandering on something in the Park and having no idea what's really going on.
Elisa is a hero and I'm glad you gave her a chance to show it.
Later
Anytime, Cassandra.
[I hope all of you know that just because I don't comment on your comments doesn't mean I'm not interested in reading them. I'm fascinated with them. But they don't often leave me with anything much to add. Garg fans are so INSIGHTFUL!!]
HIGH NOON RAMBLE-
the second i saw the title i knew this one was going to be different then most episodes, which are predominantly at night. i was really excited about the teaming up of the two gargoyles who've betrayed the clan, Demona and Iago, i figured that these two together could really cause the clan some trouble, if only Iago could get rid of Othello and Desdemona, well thats a story for another day...
when Macbeth and Demona made their first appearence i recognized Demona and was excited that we'd finally see the clans reaction to her humanity, but i oddly didn't recognize Macbeth until a minute or two later. its probably because Demona sends that glare at Elisa and so i know its her, but why would she be with Macbeth?! of course i didn't expect them together.
i really did wonder how those two knew about the Clocktower, but their stealing Coldstone was as much a distraction to me as it was to the gargs. since Coldstone had been shown i figured they were taking him but i didn't think of the magical artifacts in the closet, which i should have, if they hadn't taken them i'd be here right now typing: "why didn't Demona and Macbeth take those artifacts when the were there?"
i love the battle at Macbeth's. its great to see the whole clan together in battle, not just Goliath and the trio. i think Goliath does a great job of spliting everyone into pairs, his second with Bronx, the oldest with the next strongest and himself with the tech wiz, they all compliment each other in those pairs. i did shake my head at Brooklyn for not paying more attention to what Bronx was sniffing and scratching at, especially after "City of Stone"! and i noticed how Lex never seems to trust Coldstone very much, warning Goliath about bringing him to the Clocktower in "Legion", cautioning Goliath against freeing him here, and being the only one not to volunteer for soul transference in "Possessions" later on. i wonder what Lex has against Coldstone? but, Lex was right, neat trap, got the whole clan with one button...
i picked up on this episode being Elisa and Othello's episode, but i think you kinda forgot about Desdemona, i think her heroism was as important to the outcome as Elisa's! she comes through with the message that its not about being a hero, its about doing whats right, i really like Desdemona, she's such a good person and friend. oh, and when she is holding down Iago so Othello can take control, i think Iago is barely trying cuz he's enjoying it, but that's my theory!
finally, as for the coming battle line by the Wierd Sisters, i didn't know what that meant but i knew that would be a cool episode. actually, after this episode i was still looking at the Wierd Sisters at good guys and they were going to use the artifacts against something evil or something. little did i know...
Good guys tend to ask not steal. But I'm quibling.
Greg -
I was just curious of your opinion of Michael Reaves. I love the man's writing style and imagination. I have a friend who thinks his writing is like, godly. She found his website and e-mail him.
He took about 3 mouths to respond to one of her E-mail and honestly it was kinda rude, nothing insightful. I don't know the man and know how he is. I was just wondering what your opinion is.
Thanks
Well, first off, Michael is an extremely talented writer.
Three months to respond sounds pretty good to me. I'm only a month behind here now, but God knows I've been as much as six to eight months behind in the past. I'd say it's nice that he responded at all. He has to earn a living, raise three kids, etc.
As to the tenor of his response, well, I haven't read what he wrote or what was written to him in the first place to generate that response. I'm not going to take your word for it that he was rude, which I find unlikely. I will say that expecting someone to be insightful on demand is kinda unfair.
And not to be rude to you, but what the hell are you doing asking this here? What do you hope to accomplish?
DON'T READ IF YOU PLAN TO SEE CASTAWAY!
Stupid Movie. . .
Greg, I totally agree with you on Castaway. I thought it was completely silly. The only good part was Wilson. *laugh* I went with my brother and mother and my bro and I laughed at it the whole way through. Did you notice how Tom Hanks had a severe problem with turning around? When Wilson went missing he stared every which way but behind him - when the huge ship passed him he was staring the other way for the longest time... it was so stupid. And then there was the mysterious water splash - in every few scenes he'd be splashed by water from a really weird angle that wasn't possible according to the normal laws of physics... *laugh* Anyway, Tim - my bro - and I found all of this very amusing. Personally I think a fast moving transfer truck in the last scene would have been the BEST ending ever. Tim thought that would be pretty funny too.... gah... I watch way too much Southpark.
More power to you, Ciani.
Sapphire-
ithink at some time in the series, maybe in that same scene Goliath says something like, "What humans don't understand, they fear. And what they fear they often seek to destroy."
so you are definitly right in your examples, but remember those all are instances within and between our species. look how humans often treat animals and plants we don't understand, in fear that we may be in danger, so we attempt to destroy it! i think its the same and would be even worse between gargs, New Olympians, whatever and humans.
Yeah, that too. (It does help to have the full quotation.)
In the episode Heritage Goliath tells Angela "What humans fear they seek to destroy" Throughout recoded history fear has never been the cause of racism, arrogance has. Hitler's arrogance about a master race has led to the deaths of millions of innocent Jews of whom he saw as inferior. Hitler wasn't scared of Jews but he was jealous of their wealth. The Ku Klux Klan has a long history of terrorizing black people living in the deep south, but they did it out of their misguided arrogance of the belief that white people are superior, they didn't do it out of fear. Besides in reality if humanity ever discovered another race living on earth beside our own, the overwealming majority of humans would be curious not fearful.
I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I'm not saying arrogance doesn't play a part. But mostly I think it IS fear. Fear of what's different. Fear that if I don't blame "the other" than I will be blamed. The examples you choose smack of scapegoating. (And that's an understatement.) Scapegoating is more a result of fear than arrogance.
As for curiosity overcoming fear? I only hope you're right. But somehow I doubt it.
CITY OF STONE PART 3
Well, now that you mention it, I suppose the title doesn't adequately capture the full impact of the multi-parter (especially the flashbacks), but I never noticed it before. And it is still pretty cool.
Yeah, it always did bug me that Elisa was facing the wrong way and began talking when she reverted back (not only that, but her eyes somehow closed while she was still stone--and Owen somehow managed to stand straight up).
Owen's "awakening". Very rarely do we get that much emotion out of him. ;) And I love the look he has when he sees the phone cord is broken.
And then there's his line as he surveys the "clear signs of a struggle" in the studio--"You've managed to stop the broadcast I see." Or something like that.
It wasn't until after THE GATHERING that I knew what Xanatos was meant when he mentioned "mixing magics." Before that, I had always wondered what he had been referring to with that line. The spell seemed like it was of the Grimorum. But I let it slide until all was revealed, and then I marveled at how early this seed was planted.
The news scene is indeed quite fun. Wasn't that "I never watch television" woman the one from the Diamond Exchange back in HER BROTHER'S KEEPER? Who did her voice in this ep?
It's very hard for me to watch Macbeth, Duncan and their sons on their outing--especially how quickly Duncan seems to forget that Macbeth saved his life. Neil Dickson does some very good voice acting, as you have pointed out. It's especially good with some of the more inventive touches of writing, such as Duncan switching to the use of the "royal plural" when Macbeth pleads on behalf of Demona and the other gargoyles.
Ah, the Weird Sisters as the Witches. Y'know, I actually heard about a production of the play in which the Witches actually DID appear throughout the play in different guises--most noticably as three Nurses in the "Out, out damned spot" scene. It adds an extra power to their presence--especially in this four-parter. And I too like Luna's incredulous "You would lecture US on Fate?" Kath Soucie does some incredible voice-work throughout this series.
It took me a couple viewings before I could pick out Macduff, but it was fun once I did. I think he had a scar on his face...but I can't be sure.
One thing that bothers me about the "gargoyle smashing" sequence is that the animators can't seem to keep track of which gargoyle(s) was(were) smashed. Oh well, Demona's Second still makes a good impression. I just love the look he gives Demona when she says there's no one else fit to lead the last of the gargoyles. Talk about insulting!
Once again, Bodhe suggests the submissive action and once again Macbeth follows it. Says his good-byes (yes, it is quite touching, and the fear in Grouch's voice when she says "Husband?" after Macbeth's "Know that I will always love you" is quite good).
Macbeth's interchange with Demona and the Weird Sisters' spell...what can I say. It's well animated, well acted, and a wonderful sequence. I did indeed understand that the Wierd Sisters appeared differently to D and M, and I figured out most of the aspects of the spell that were revealed in Part Four (and may I just say, that the spell has rules the crueler side of me tends to revel in).
I always wondered what Demona was thinking when she saw Macbeth and Gruoch together--her face shifted from one emotion to the next (a far more guarded look) so quickly. Maybe that was her intent.
Love the battle, though I do wish we saw Macbeth putting up a better fight against Duncan. He probably would have--if Macduff hadn't tried to blind-side him. "Treacherous human" is right!
The globe was a cheat, yes. But its effect on Duncan remains one of my two favorite death scenes in GARGOYLES. How can you beat fire shooting out of a man's head and mouth?
Ed Gilbert sure read a great "THE NIGHT IS WON!" line. I don't know why, but it's appealing in a funny sort of way (maybe the crack in the voice).
Canmore proves that he inherited a bit of his father's mean streak--and deviousness. The mask of the Hunter passes on.
Meanwhile, Macbeth is crowned, and Demona named (and cheered by the humans). This is another of those "heart-breaking" scenes because I know that eventually things just have to fall apart. Still, it is nice to see everyone happy for this brief moment. And if you look in the crowd scene, you'll see a brunette-woman who shares Princess Katharine's fashion sense. ;)
I recognized the Sisters as Police officers (and liked it).
I picked up on the "semi-running gag" of "That's one way to end an argument" when Elisa and Owen turn to stone mid-struggle.
One of my favorite exchanges:
GOLIATH: What is Elisa doing here?
BROOKLYN: She doesn't look happy.
XANATOS: Owen sometimes has that effect on people.
It's just so fun.
I figured there was something behind the tapestry when so much emphasis was placed on Bronx clawing it. And I knew Bronx was going to save Elisa as soon as the cliff-hanger happened. I still didn't like having to wait for the next episode, though.
Multi-parter's coming to an eventful end, sure enough.
I don't think it was the same woman from the Diamond Exchange. The voice here was Rachel Ticotin's.
And Ed Gilbert was just great. He's sorely missed.
My vote on favorite sarcastic reply from Greg.
Jim R. writes...
How long would a gargoyle last in college? And would he be able to afford it? :)
Greg responds...
That would depend on the gargoyle. And the financial aid package.
recorded on 02-15-01
Eh, that's okay, I guess.
Wouldn't it be cool if gargoyles was done in amine?
Do you mean "anime" or maybe "mime"?
And what exactly do you mean by that? Do you want bigger eyes?
City of Stone, 1-4 mini-ramble.
There so much to address here, I should really dig out my tapes before attacking it, but...
A few things still stick out.
I remember the first time I watched it, and thinking something didn't quite add up with what Demona was saying. Before the advent of mass media, exactly how would Demona get enough people together to make a spell like the one she sold Xanatos on worthwhile?
I remember being really impressed with the scene where MacBeth goes skysurfing, or whatever you want to call it, with the line wrapped around Demona's leg. Really good showcase of exactly how determined, not to say completely mental, MacBeth is at this point. Can you imagine how much it would hurt if Demona did succeed in shaking him off? Even if you're immortal that's gotta suck.
And of course, I did love the double punch D&M give Goliath. (But then, I'm a Demona fan, so watching the big purple guy take one usually amuses me)
I think the idea of the lie in the past was that Demona just stole massive quantities of youth from a few individuals. This was a way to do it so that NO ONE could possibly notice or miss the time. At least, that's what she told X.
Re: High Noon
I have to say that I was very confused about the three Desdemonas. Until someone mentioned it in Ask Greg I just figured it was the writer wanting to do strange and surreal stuff inside Coldstone's head. The animation was so good I never would've noticed the colour mistake. If it wasn't for this venue, I'd never have known.
"This is diverting." "You don't know the half of it."
Sure, I laughed when I first heard the line accompanied by the expression on Coldstone's face. But when I watched the episode again a few years later, I thought that Macbeth's response may have been a hint (subconsciously, maybe) that the entire situation was a diversion (staged to get the talismans). Am I wrong to think that Mac may not have been as interested in the girl-fight as it sounded?
Nah. It works both ways.
A question about Xanatos as portrayed in "Future Tense". This was the last episode in the series where Xanatos was the antagonist (even though it may not count as such, given that it turned out that it wasn't really Xanatos). And what recently struck me about it was that here Xanatos, for once, was acting in a manner more like a conventional cliched cartoon villain than he did anywhere else in the series. He took over Manhattan by force, enslaved the population and plunged them into poverty and misery, had the city patrolled by Mutate soldiers on the ground and Steel Clan robots in the air, murdered his own son without even an ounce of pity or remorse, and was plotting to seize control over the entire planet. All very evocative of the stereotypical super-villain that one would expect to find in a more conventional animated series.
Also, in this episode, Goliath did (momentarily) "destroy" Xanatos (or the Xanatos Program masquerading as him) in the cyberspace battle (just before it turned out that it was really Lexington operating the Xanatos Program behind the scenes), in what could count as their final battle.
So, was "Future Tense" designed, in part, to trick the audience into thinking that "Gargoyles" was going to end with a more conventional showdown between Goliath and Xanatos, a more stereotypical "final battle", before going on to reveal, almost immediately afterwards (given that "The Gathering" was the story that came immediately after "Future Tense"), the real manner in which the Goliath/Xanatos conflict came to an end (through the two making peace after the gargs helped Xanatos against Oberon)? A kind of "tricking the audience raised on more conventional adventure cartoon series" method similar to that used in "Leader of the Pack" (where it initially seems as if Xanatos is out for revenge, but it turns out that it wasn't the real Xanatos and that the real one had very different and much more practical goals)?
Yep. I mean that wasn't the only thing going on, but we did so love to play with and against expectations.
But it's also fun, even if it's a fantasy within our fantasy, to see such opposites go at it to the death. I knew that wasn't they're true destiny, so it was nice to slip a version of it in.
High Noon
<<Anyway, Demona's in atypical dress and species. Who knew it was her?>>
(raises hand) Aw c'mon Greg, not even human form and frumpy clothing can hide the radiant beauty that is Demona. ;) But seriously, who else has hair like that?
Random observation: When human-form Demona leaves her hair alone, instead of putting it up in that dreadful restrained thing she wears as Domonique Destine, she looks like a red-haired Puma sister. (Dominion Tank Police, in case you didn't get the ref)
I still don't get the ref.
Just a quick comment. Actually, Demona's"sexpot posing at the clock tower when she confronts Elisa did seem in character to me. I always imagined her smugly suggesting, See, even as a human I'm better looking than you. Her subconscious jealousy of Elisa and Goliath's "connection"
and her "I'm better than you are attitude, contirbute to her flagrantly exhibiting herself." Or in the words of the immortal and unknown, "When you've got it flaunt it." Got to love the Japanese animators on this one.
Works for me too.
My "High Noon" ramble.
It's hard to be certain what my original thoughts were when seeing this one for the first time (given that that was back in 1995), but I feel pretty certain that I didn't recognize Demona in her human form until the dialogue actually named her. (And given that, as you'd pointed out, up till then, I'd only seen her as a human briefly at the end of "The Mirror", it was easy enough not to recognize her).
I don't recall now what I'd thought of the Demona/Macbeth team-up or where the Weird Sisters were all this time when I first saw the episode, though. Maybe I was just accepting the story as it went along without asking that many questions.
I very much liked Hudson's question about the "hit the sack" idiom, and the bit where Hudson and Broadway were reading the newspaper as the link back to "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time". Both struck me as very enjoyable touches.
I sometimes wonder if Officer Morgan will ever realize just how helpful he was to Elisa in helping her gain the strength to face Demona at Belvedere Castle. This may very well count as his biggest moment in the series to date.
The revelation at the end that the Sisters were behind it all, and - more importantly - that the real targets were the Grimorum, the Eye of Odin, and the Phoenix Gate definitely surprised me. One thing that I do remember from my first time seeing the episode was this: for some odd reason, I was under the impression that "the coming battle" that the Sisters mentioned was something slated for the end of the season (Episode 65 or close to it), a grand finale conflict of some sort. Well, it was a big battle, but it took place in "Gargoyles" a lot sooner than I was expecting.
(One little thing that I must admit: a good thing for Demona that she was using the Grimorum to shield herself from prying eyes during the day. I don't think that she would have been too appreciative of the way that male humans might have been looking at her in that outfit as a human if they could have seen her :)
Except I don't think she was shielding THAT. She hailed a cab in that outfit, after all. (Which amuses me to no end. Hey, it's NYC!)
Cassandra writes...
Since stroking hair is gargoyle equilvant to a kiss, all the times Goliath touched Elisa's hair was a kiss? And how long would it take him to get used to kissing with lips?
Just feeling a trifle silly with that thought. But I seem to remember Goliath touching her hair fondly before they noticed or decided to act on the feelings they have for each other.
Greg responds...
Kissing is special, particularly romantic kissing. I'm not sure one wants to "get used to it" ever. It will always be special to Goliath.
And yes, everytime he touched her hair in any intimate way (as opposed to by accident or incidentally) it was the basic equivalent of a kiss. But by the way, it wasn't often.
recorded on 02-15-01
Okay, to clarify what I was talking about I think I was remembering the end of "Deadly Force". Goliath brushes Elisa's hair back when he tells her to sleep.
I didn't mean "getting used to it" to equal "become blaise about it". More like kissing is a feels-great-still-weird-but-I-like-it situation and Goliath would feel more comfortable with gargoyle display's of affection.
I know they're both mature adults and both of them realize there is going to be a lot of compromising and explaining in their relationship. It's just a quirky idea that popped in my head.
And an interesting one. But yes, that Deadly Force moment was to Goliath, a kiss equivalent. Not necessarily a romantic kiss. But a caring one.
A little thought I've had for some time, inspired by the occasional protests from this "Gargoyles" fan or that who wanted to see Angela pair up with Brooklyn rather than with Broadway. I've never had any problem with Angela choosing Broadway, and actually think that it works very nicely (not to mention that I don't think that Brooklyn would really have been all that happy with Angela - for one thing, there's the way that he feels about her mother). But there is one thing about this business that has amused me.
Although I've seen a number of protests about Brooklyn not becoming Angela's mate, I haven't seen one case of a "Gargoyles" fan, to date, who wanted Lexington to become Angela's mate. Looks as though Lex doesn't have that much of a fan club :)
Don't tell that to Lexy! Or Thom Adcox for that matter!
Justin> You seem to think that "fat" and "obese" are one and the same. They are *not*. Trust me on this, Broadway isn't obese, not by any definition of the word...
Thank you.
Greg,
Not to be rude, but I read some of your rambles about stuff. What are they SUPPOSED to MEAN?! I can't make heads or tails as to what you're talking about or where you're going with these alternative outcomes...Whatever you're rambling about, trust me, you're beginning to make me think of parallel outcomes for everything I saw in Gargoyles which is MORE like something I'd watch on Star Trek. Now, don't scare me. (And you said you tried to avoid such unstrict storylines which Star Trek producers are famous for.)
Huh?
I don't know what you are talking about.
Are you talking about my rambles on individual episodes?
Can you give me an example? What alternative outcomes?
Honestly, this post stumps me.
Favorite smart-ass remark:
Faieq writes...
In the Gargoyles Universe, how much truth is there in fortune cookies?
Greg responds...
All cookies are true. Especially Peanut Butter cookies.
(Personally, I've known a few disingenuous peanut butter cookies in my time, so I'm not sure I can back you on this one, Greg)
Good luck regaining your edge!
Yeah, a few of you have picked that. It's one of my favorites too.
matt,
I thought the skiff was blown up at first, but i remembered that only happened in the "Future Tense" episode, which I suppose wasn't real to Goliath. But no one could accidently go to Avalon, because one would first have to recite the Latin to reach it. I got you on this one buddy. :)
Yup.
City of Stone scenelet>> When Gil crushed the rose, I thought this was to tel the audience that, the scars on his face did more than damage his looks. I thought he had lost his sense of smell too. In my mind this provided even greater cause for him to grow more and more embittered against Demona. I don't think this is what you were intending though, not anymore.
Hmmm. Interesting. Maybe I wasn't intending it. But maybe it's still true. Hmmm.
Greg,
A few weeks ago Anonymous writes
<Are there any female gargoyles who are obese? How about muscular or extremely skinny? Are any females bow-legged?
Are there gargoyles with differnent wing and ear types than the types that were shown on the series?
You know how some gargoyles have a sharp elbow or knee spike that juts out, I was wondering if any gargoyles have them on both knees and elbows because it was always on or the other.>
To which you replied...
<Obese? Not likely, but possible, I guess.
Look, it's all sounding possible.>
Now why is not likely for a gargoyle woman to be obese? Must all of them be fairly skinny like Demona? I don't know man, it seems like a sexist notion of what the female form is supposed to be! Sorry if offends you but with the gargoyles anatomy being similar on the surface, this might boys the neanderthal idea of what female beauty is supposed to be, and girls an impossible standard to live up to. Now don't get me wrong I love the show. Another thing that yerked me. You have mentioned that the original Broadway was going to be a girl. But you changed your minds out of fear of feminist groups being concerned about the evil/fat issue among the two female characters.
Now I would think that feminist groups with all sorts of "agendas" as you put it would love to see a none picture perfect woman in the series. Trust me having the two main female gargoyles in the series model thing didn't exactly endear the show to them I'm sure ;)
Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I just wanted your honest thought on what I've said.
Thank you
I didn't mean to say that garg FEMALES aren't likely to be obese. I was trying to say that gargs as a whole aren't likely to be obese. Broadway and Hudson may be overweight, but neither are obese. I said it was possible, and I meant it, but given the lifestyle that most gargs have, obesity isn't likely.
Sorry for the confusion.
More of a ramble (or two) than a question but here goes:
I believe that someone here in Ask Greg compared Xanatos to Prospero- both having magical assistants... Anyway I was thinking around the same lines, trying to compare Xanatos with characters from mythology:
My first thought was Gilgamesh (I'll ramble about him next) but then I thought an even better match: namely Sisyphus. And, god, this guy seems the most Xanatosian character I know (I even imagine him played by Frakes). He's *very* intelligent (him and Ulysses are pretty much the two clever men of Greek mythology); something of a trickster; he's considered to be something of a villain; and finally in certain stories he has even tried to find a way to defeat death. Two times in fact. One of them involved binding Thanatos (or Hades - not sure which) pretty similar to what the Emir did in 'Grief'...
So questions:
1. Any thoughts on the above? :-)
2. Sisyphus was punished pretty severely for what was seen as villainy (namely his trying to cheat death and angering Zeus in general)... Other than the brief (though admittedly great) scare that Oberon gave to Xanatos, do you think that Xanatos will get a comeuppance for his crimes? He's done worse than Sisyphus I think...
3. There's a third question but I'll post it serarately in case Todd thinks it a story idea...
1. Interesting. I can't claim to have been thinking along those lines specifically. Though Odysseus did come to mind, more than once. I guess, I'm just not quite as familiar with Sisyphus' legends...
2. Of course the thing I remember most about Sis is the final punishment. The Sisyphusian task of pushing that boulder up the hill. Xanatos will, on occasion, continue to get his comeuppance. But I can't picture him standing for that kind of punishment -- even in Hell.
What nationality is Titania's human form supposed to be?
I find it very cool that you have so much ethinic/racial diversity in the human cast, from Elisa's Native American/African background to Xanatos's half Greek. It's such a fresh change from other cartoon characters with no heritage at all.
I myself am French-American, and I LOVE it that Fox, one of my favorite characters, is half French-American. Thanks, Greg!
Xanatos isn't half-Greek. He's 100% Greek-American. I also like mixing up the ethnic backgrounds of our characters.
As for Anastasia, however, you need to remember that the identity was a fiction. Her first name suggests a Russian background, but her voice suggests that she's lived in the U.S. all her life. And we don't know her maiden name. So I don't really know how to answer this question.
Faieq, Goliath said, "I grow tired of this, take whats left of your men and begone!" i think he meant he was tired of that particular battle and i doubt there had been previous encounters with Hakon.
Yeah. That sounds more like it.
Thanks, matt.
My "City of Stone Part Four" ramble.
I hadn't noticed the bit about Bronx responding to Demona's tone of voice, but I think that it is a good point. I know from personal experience that dogs do the same thing in real life. My mother used to sometimes, for a joke, when she was telling off our dog for doing something naughty, add, still in a condemning tone of voice "You're the most beautiful dog in the world", etc., and note the way that he'd hang his head and look guilty at that.
The Chorus music in the battle scenes in 1057 reminded me a lot of the music in the battle scenes in "Excalibur". (Kind of appropriate, actually, given Macbeth's affinity to Arthurian matters in "Gargoyles").
Good analysis on Macbeth's secret council, and I certainly don't think myself that he would have agreed to betray the gargoyles. (And I don't think, for that matter, that it would have worked even if he had; given the fact that the English still attack Castle Moray even after the gargoyles' desertion, and continue to support Canmore against Luach even after the destruction of Demona's clan, I certainly suspect that Bodhe was inaccurate in his assumption that they had only invaded Scotland to destroy the gargoyles. Historically speaking, of course, they had a number of non-gargoyle reasons - such as the fact that their real-life leader, Earl Siward of Northumbria, was one of Canmore's relatives - but that's another story).
One thing that strikes me about the bit where Canmore "slays" Macbeth is that it brings across the fact that he was something of a rotter. Instead of slaying Macbeth in fair fight, he waits for him to get into an argument with Demona and then stabs him in the back. Not much honor there. At least his Hunter descendants were a bit of an improvement over him and his father (except for the point when Jon Canmore becomes Castaway and afterwards).
I also find Macbeth and Gruoch's final parting a moving moment. One thing that I've got to say about Gruoch in "City of Stone" - it's hard to believe that she's the historical original of one of the most infamous villainesses in all of literature. Shakespeare may have maligned her even worse than she maligned Macbeth (as I said before in my "Long Way Till Morning" ramble, Demona fits the Lady Macbeth role far better than Gruoch ever did).
Back to the present: the big confrontation at the end still moves me, including the Weird Sisters' lines (even after we learn that they don't really practice what they preach). I can't help but wonder what the impact on Demona must have been when she discovered that the fact that killing her would mean his own death was no longer much of a deterrent to Macbeth - was, in fact, more of an incentive. And I agree that "Death is never the answer. Life is." is a great Goliath line. And Demona's "The access code is 'alone'" is a very moving moment; at least, it was for me.
Thanks for the ramble.
Thank you.
Lawrence Stone writes...
How do gargoyles view Homosexuality?
Greg responds...
On cable, like the rest of us.
This has got to be the best on in the arcive, mostly because you play it out so litteraly like with the "cauldran of life" It just really get's me how a question/magic spell can sound so good and start an intelegent conversation and then take any meaning or insight and compleatly nuke it.
I think I see what you mean. Maybe.
SMART ASS STUFF...
you wanted to know those we loved... I liked the Bunji-jumping new olipians and the fea that evolved from books... I like the sens in the non-sens..
by the way, some people asked "what came first, the egg or the gargoyle"... come on, we all know it's the egg... if gargoyles are part of the evolution then they came from dinosaurs that layed eggs :P
then again, dinosaurs came from unicellulars that didn't O.o
who's the smart-ass now !?
Uh, the egg? Or have we moved on to another topic?
I agree with Chris Maune's post. Gargoyles on the Cartoon Network would be a great thing! It would give a chance for some healthy "American animation" to replace some of that mindless Japanese anime that is polluting the minds of our younger generations in the Toonami block. Kids these days just don't know good cartoons when they see them...
If you say so.
no offense to anyone who has posted stuff about gargs evolving from dinosaurs, but i think that it is extremelly unlikely that they did. only Greg and God could convince me that they are saurian descendants.
dinosaurs were all wiped out!!!! what does a garg evolve from? bones? and as for the triceratops head frill and the pterydactyl wings and whatever else, why would all these dinosaurs mate with each other anyway? for that matter, pterydactyls arn't even dinosaurs!
gargs are far more likely to be related to the platypus, the bat, or some other mammal, not dinosaurs.
sorry if i seem like i'm ranting, but for some reason the dinosaur connection just really bugs me...
Gargoyles pre-date mammals in my mind. Whether they evolved from dinosaurs or beside dinosaurs is another question.
Wow! A new episode ramble! Well, here's my thoughts on "City of Stone Part Three".
I get a chuckle out of the "I never watch television" scene - although I've occasionally thought that the lady must have been reading the script to know that watching Demona's broadcast was what turned everyone to stone :) (Then again, maybe it isn't such a hard connection to make).
Yes, I'd noted that Lulach's name got spelled wrong (I was aware of the original Lulach of history before "City of Stone" came out); thanks for explaining about how that happened.
I mentioned in my ramble on Part Two that the Duncan of "City of Stone" felt a lot closer to the Shakespearean Macbeth than the Macbeth of "City of Stone" did, and the Weird Sisters scene brings it home all the more. They do their "toil and trouble" scene, as per the play (which delighted me from the very first time that I saw the episode) - but note here the twist from Shakespeare. In Shakespeare, the Weird Sisters' words inspire Macbeth to move against Duncan. In "City of Stone", they inspire Duncan to move against Macbeth, instead. (And it says a lot about Duncan that he should completely forget that Macbeth just saved his life a few minutes before, simply because of the words of three old crones).
The scene where the Sisters transfer Demona and Macbeth's ages is a very effective one (although I don't know if I'd gotten the full story there until Part Four came along). So also is the battle scene, including Duncan's fiery end. (Again, I wasn't too surprised by the basic manner in which Macbeth overthrew Duncan; I'd already read that he did overthrow Duncan in actual history - and that it was in 1040, so I was expecting that incident the moment that the "1040" caption appeared on the screen. I'd also read that Shakespeare seems to have borrowed the more familiar murder story from Holinshed's account of the murder of a certain King Duff - apparently the same Duff who appeared in your "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" story as Kenneth II and Prince Malcolm's older brother. Although that Duff's final days reminded me more of Uther Pendragon's, in his going into his final battle in a litter - but I digress).
A couple of thoughts about Demona at the coronation that really stand out to me. First off, when Demona comments that she'd rather that humans feared gargoyles than respected them, I can't help but think that it shows how Demona doesn't always reason things out. For humans do fear gargoyles - and that's what causes the problem. Humans hunt and destroy gargoyles because they're afraid of them. So I don't think that it's clear thinking on Demona's part to desire that her race be feared.
The other part is the astonished, then delighted look upon Demona's face when the humans in the great hall actually cheer her. Another one of those almost sad moments, in that she's given an opportunity to see what it can be like to be loved by humans instead of feared - and seventeen years later, she'll reject it. A moment equal to her brief "What have I done?" moment in 994, before she changed it to "What have they done?"
I very much liked the Weird Sisters' little lurkings in the background throughout (and caught their policewoman role at once).
Oh, and I like the title "City of Stone". True, it indeed does ignore the flashbacks that are so crucial, but it sounds good. I didn't even notice that trait when I watched the multi-parter.
But perhaps the most intriguing part of "City of Stone" remains this: how many animated adventure series would dare air a story that spends so much of its time in medieval Scotland, as opposed to a more high-tech setting (whether modern-day or futuristic), exploring actual events in early Scottish history? "Gargoyles" was definitely unique in that regard.
I'm looking forward to the "Part Four" ramble.
And I'm looking forward to your response to that ramble.
City of Stone was obviously a momentous undertaking for us. In more ways then one. I was glad they let us do it at all. Impressed that they let us do it. And of course, I think it really is THE set of episodes that brings an EPIC flavor to the rest of the series. Sure the Pilot is big. But then we seemed to settle down. Now our scope has expanded in multiple directions at once. Avalon and the World Tour will do the same thing. But by then it's almost expected. I think City is more of a revelation. (When watched in order and for the first time.)
My fave S-A Response :) :
Faieq writes...
In the Gargoyles Universe, how much truth is there in fortune cookies?
Greg responds...
All cookies are true. Especially Peanut Butter cookies.
(This is my favorite question this month.)
Yeah. That still makes me smile.
But i got lucky there. It was a good set-up.
Well, first off, Smart Ass answers are my favorite...But I can't pick one, so here are just a few of my favs.
Airwalker writes...
In the 'ONCE UPON A TIME...' segments you've done, we've seen why Malcolm would need to ally himself with a Gargoyle clan. But why would Hudson want
to ally himself with Malcolm?
Greg responds...
Patience, grasshopper...
Scott Iskow writes...
That last question of mine got me thinking...
Are there flying pigs in the Gargoyles Universe?
(Believe it or not, that's actually a serious question. Go fig.)
Greg responds...
I've got the bacon, do you have the catapult?
ndrew writes...
In the episode the gathering (part 2) what did titania whisper to fox at the end of the episode. I have been wondering this for a long time.
Greg responds...
You and what army?
Oh, yeah. That army. <WAVES> "Hi, guys!"
Heidi Doeing writes...
I don't think, despite your multiple attempts to evade the question, that anyone will stop until the real answer is given:
What did Anastacia whisper to Fox?
( ;) just thought I'd try again)
Greg responds...
You misspelled Anastasia.
Yeah, those are pretty fun. Particularly the middle two.
The last one's a bit feeble.
And the first is just a famous reference.
My favorite smart-ass response was your answer to the question:
"Which came first, the gargoyle or the egg?"
Your answer: "I DID"
I even drew up a little comic around it in the New Yorker Magazine style.
Cool. Can you post a link?
Hey man, I'm back. Dude, so let's say I asked Angela out on a date, and she said yes...
1) What kind of flowers should I bring her? Or would she prefer something more original like...a basket of nectorines or something?
2) what's her favorite color? That's always good to know about a woman.
3) Does she like punk rock? Hey it could be very likely! I mean, after all she did come to New York! I'm sure she's determined to get 'cultured' in her new world, so what style of music do you think she likes? Hey, there's an idea, I could write her a song...that's more personal then flowers. Heh heh, that gargoyle is so cool. When we go out, I'll even whip out my flashy Cheetah Bondage pants for her...I only wear them on very special occasions don't ya know.
You probably think i'm a psycho, huh? Yeah I know, it's a hard truth. I seriously painted her on a wall in my room though. It's pretty sweet! But ya know what Greg, now you have my pathetic posts and questions to look forward too every time you come on to reply! Besides, I've been through the archives, and as you know, there are people here who have way more issues then I do! Later Dude!
1. I'm not big on hypotheticals. I like nectarines though.
2. I'm color blind. Maybe green, like her BOYFRIEND, Broadway.
3. I think most of Punk Rock would initially be a wall of sound that she couldn't relate to. However, it's certainly possible that if one really good song got through, it might give her the patience to relate to the rest of the genre.
Greg,
I never "was" picking on matt. When I first found this place, I saw how much he was posting and I thought I'd ask him, since I really had no other way to communicate with him at the time. And after he responded with his email included, I started talking to him more frequently. He mentioned my name, and I did his. BUT, it was all in good fun! I never ment to be negative, but I guess you took it that way... Please don't be mad with me! :)
[Jim R. bows at your feet in forgiveness.]
No. My apologies. I misinterpreted. (Let's never speak of it again. :) )
Greg,
there seemed to be a mix up about the relationship between Jim R. and i. we actually met through this site a couple months ago and are now friends. we talk on the computer but have never met, however we hope to meet at the 2002 Gathering or sometime. Jim R. may have been picking on me, but in a friendly way so it's not a problem. thanks!
-matt
Yeah, I'm slow on the uptake, but I eventually figured it out. Sorry.
Not actually but after the recent time travel thread referenced a book of mine at one point I just wanted to say
how great I think your show is!
Thanks, Simon!
My favorite smart-ass response:
Someone wrote...
What do you you think would be the reaction of the Canmore siblings (especially Jon) if they found out that Demona literally killed their father with one hand tied behind her back? (She was holding onto the Praying Gargoyle at the time he attacked her.)
Greg answered:
Gee. I think they'd dance a jig.
Whaddaya think their reactions would be?
Then there was the one person asking how Goliath was able to shave on the Avalon Tour, and Greg said something about Superman volunteering his heat vision.....
Yeah. Those are okay. Nothing's grabbing me though. I guess they're only witty with a sense of spontanaity attached. Reviewing them may have been a bad idea.
My favorite responses (to most things, actually) are the ones that reveal a witty-but-slightly-quirky sense of humor without being malicious. So I'd have to pick these:
1) "... I realize that isn't the kind of answer you were looking for. ... And that amuses me."
2) "It's not that I didn't understand the question. It just struck me, no offense, as too silly to answer in any straight way. ... And the funny thing is, it still strikes me that way."
Yeah, those are pretty good.
I just feel rusty, you know?
fav smart-ass response: in reply to aris's follow-up about one my latest whisper question
Oh, well if that's what you want, then the answer is...
Hey, was that you're plan all along? To appeal to my sense of perversion?
yeah, that questions been asked way too much. so you gonna tell us? j/k
nope
Here's one of my favorite smart-ass responses:
Anonymous writes...
do you know where i can find a picture of some neat looking gargoyles? like the ones out of a comic book.
Greg responds...
Nope. Have you tried comic books?
Yeah, that one's okay. I just wish I was wittier.
Okay, after going through the smart ass archive I know I definitly want to meet you in LA
My favorite was the guy swooning over Angela and your drawn out response.
-Sure, more power to you........Poor slob
My thoughts exactly. There's a world outside them for walls!
YES! Walls do deserve their own world.
Oh, wait. You meant "four walls" not "for walls". Sorry.
Here's one of my favorites from the "Smart-ass Responses" section, as per your request:
<<What Would Happen to a gargoyle in space?
Greg responds...
They'd explode in the void, just like a human.>>
I don't know. That just doesn't seem smart-ass enough to me. Almost to direct an answer. But thanks.
Greg, i love those smart-ass responses and it would be hard to choose one favirote, but i always thought that this one was pretty good:
-How do gargoyles view homosexuality?
-On cable, like the rest of us.
i also liked:
-After clones, superviruses, and mutates what could Sevarius possibly cook up next?
-Breakfast?
you sound like Xanatos in "The Edge" when he thinks he's lost his. i think you still have the edge in smart-ass responses, you are hilarious!
Thanks. I think the cable line is pretty good. "Breakfast?" seems a bit feeble though.
All the rambles on City of Stone recently brought back some memories. While that season was airing I was in High school, and the English Class that semester was British Literature. Beowulf, Canterbury Tales, and of course Shakespere. We did the Scottish play not too long after CoS aired and when I was reading the book the voice of John Rhys-Davies always found its way into my head.
The classroom also had a big poster of the complete family tree of the royalty of the British Isles. You can imagine how much fun it was to look back to 11th century Scotland and find the names of Gillecomgain, Gruoch, and Luoch right there with MacBeth, Duncan, and Malcom Cannmore.
Then when we got to Arthurian Legend I asked the teacher what the significance of Avalon was besides being Arthur's final resting place, half expecting to hear it was the traditional home of the fairy kingdom. (Never could be too sure what was real, what you were making up, and what was some of both.)
It was (in many works) the traditional home of the fairy kingdom. I wasn't making that up.
Alright.
I just realized how long it has been since you've dropped by (I had a hard time finding the end of the page). This one is quick.
I need to know if you are planning to do an episode about the Fourth Race. I know it hasn't been mentionned, but since I have discovered them, I need to know if I have to hurry up and get published before someone else does.
(Not that it wouldn't be complimentary to be beaten by you, but you know - copyrights and all that...)
Kirshanta,
You have a skewed idea of ownership, or so it seems to me. Fanfic-wise, do whatever you want. But copyrighting anything based on a property you have NO rights in isn't an issue. Or else I don't understand at all what you're talking about.
As it is, I don't know what you mean by the fourth race either.
And again, I'm no lawyer.
Hello.
My question is actually a permission. If I have used events in the Gargoyles animation and saga in a novel, do I need to ask Greg's permission or can I simply post a Disclaimer saying that Gargoyles are the property of Disney and the events from the Saga are used without permission?
I'm no lawyer, so I'm not qualified to give you any advice. But if you're writing for only your own amusement I think you're safe. On the other hand, if you plan on trying to make even a penny off your work, than you'd need permission from Disney. And good luck there.
But again, I'm no lawyer.
Correction for my last Ask Greg response. I accredited Demona's guilt, grief, and brief super-gargoyle aging appearance to the episode "Vows" when I meant it was in one of the "City of Stone" flashbacks. I apologize for any confusion.
'sNo problem.
Hey Greg,
At some point it just hit me to thank you. I got a 4 (out of 5, which is still pretty good) on the Language Advanced Placement exam. Since watching Gargoyles and writing about it while in seventh grade was strongly responsible, I decided that a "thank you" was in order, so...
THANK YOU
Sincerely,
Duncan Devlin
You're very welcome, Duncan. I doubt I can take much credit, but I'm proud we were able to help at all. As a former (and still occasional) teacher, very proud.
A small ramble of my own about "Vows".
I always felt (especially after "City of Stone") that it would be much more tragic if the young Demona was trying to prevent what she had seen.
As her adult evil version explained, humans destroyed the clan. So ties with humanity should be severed. And with the way the humans eventually treat the gargoyles, who could really fault that separatist view? The clan should get the castle because they were here first. So when the oppurtunity arose, she made the deal with the Captain. But part of her knew what was doomed to happen and that's why she hid.
Which I think explains her grief, guilt, and brief aging in "Vows". This was what she was trying to prevent and it happened any way.
Maybe that makes her less flawed. Or maybe it just a bigger fuel for her denial.
Just my humble opinion. Later.
I think I follow you. ANd I think I agree.
CITY OF STONE PART 2
What can I say about the first few harrowing minutes that you haven't already pointed out? I knew Xanatos would be able to pull them out of the drop of course. And you're right, his lines here are great.
I like Brooklyn's back at the Clock Tower as well, simply for the dramatic irony.
Ahhh, so THAT'S why Broadway didn't have a single line in the CITY OF STONE multi-parter! (seriously, I noticed that little fact on one of my re-viewings) As with Xanatos' chopper pilot being Fox, the "blind man" who helps clue in the gargoyles being Jeffrey worked better for me--personalized things more. And in this case, cut down on the "coincidence factor". On top of that, Jeffery's just one heck of a great character. I love how he remains pretty aware that the gargoyles are a little more in touch with what's going on, but doesn't press it too hard. Also, one of my famous "between character" beats, after Brooklyn blurts out a question:
Jeffrey: (amused)"Your friend is impatient."
Hudson: "The curse of youth."
I don't know why, but I like that little exchange. It just seems fitting.
Brooklyn's hatred of Demona comes off as strong as ever, and I like how Goliath handles that particular problem.
Demona and the slaughter...one of the most chilling and memorable moments in GARGOYLES. It sure goes farther than most other American animated series I'm familar with. The gal with her arms shot off "LESS HARSH?" Yeah. Sure. Whatever.
PERSON 1: "Um, instead of killing this one, don't you think you could just mutilate her body instead?"
PERSON 2: (evil villain voice) "YEAH, heh heh heh heh heh heh--*cough*ahem* Whatever you say."
Man I would have loved being privy to some of these S&P conversations.
I did wonder why Macbeth wore the Hunter's mask, but it wasn't an extremely pressing issue for me. Mac had his reasons--he ALWAYS has his reasons. I did like the new "eye-less" design. It also seemed to have a pretty clear metallic sheen...or I could be wrong.
Bodhe's switch from "big man" to "yes man" in the flashback I had noticed, but only dimly. I knew he was definitely shifting tactics to get what he thought was the best outcome...and Macbeth always listens to him. That scene on the hill is always difficult for me to watch. The voice acting and animation of the characters are quite good, and man I always feel frustrated for Macbeth.
You are right about Emma Samms. She didn't leave too much of an impression on me until Part 4, but that's a ways off yet.
Duncan, the @$$hole--that's how I'll always remember him from this. Of course he gets a bit of his own from Gillcomgain in that one scene--one of my favs in this episode I might add. Then Duncan comes up with the whole "He fooled me completely" routine for Macbeth--who buys it.
I knew Demona's "Never again" line was in reference to the Captain's betrayal, and I always liked that touch. I also like when Demona says "I make no promises" in reference to allying with a human, and the Weird Sisters smile.
Gillcomgain didn't need to crush the rose to make me feel okay about hating him--I was cheerfully doing it myself already.
Macbeth fights rather disappointingly in his battle with Gil, I must admit, but he did seem to have the upper hand when Gruoch came out and made the perfect hostage.
I suppose the two "Lovers almost fall over edge" scenes may have been a bit much for some, but they were different enough that it came across more as "parallel"(sp?) than "repeat".
Ah, the unmasking, and the revelation. Demona didn't remember scarring him. I wonder if this little revelation, an action of her's she didn't even remember creating her most hated adversary, had any impact on her. Did she think he was lying, or mistaken?
I don't know why, but I kind of like the Hunter's death more than most other "falling-deaths". Maybe it's because Demona THWACKED him down with her tail, or just that Jim Cummings gives such a great death yell (seriously, I really like it).
Demona thanks a human. A small thing, but of great importance considering what she will become. Still, she seems a bit glad that she doesn't owe Macbeth, seeing that he was the one first in her debt.
The second wedding, boy, everything about it is happier than the first one...except Duncan up in the tower. Nice, chilling little scene there between father and son.
Though the "talking, crumbling triplet statues" is pretty chilling in its own right. I liked that Goliath got mad enough to consider killing Demona--just seemed more natural.
I love Xanatos saving Owen during the fight with Demona--the bad guy saves his side kick. Not something you see very often.
I, unfortunately, did not get the idea that shutting off the broadcast would reverse the spell. Maybe this was because I didn't expect it to be that easy to reverse ANY spell (can we say "castle rises above the clouds"?). Also, since the flashback story didn't seem completely finished, I thought there was more of the multi-parter to go. Anyway, now Xanatos' line, "That should do it, eh Owen? Terrific" makes more sense to me. I had thought that maybe Xanatos had momentarily forgotten that Owen was stone, but it just didn't quite fit.
I DID however, get the idea that Demona and Macbeth feel each other's pain right from where it was introduced. The fight, while good, really just seemed like added candy around that juicy revelation. I was ready to learn the background about the connection.
Like Todd, one of my favorite things about the ending, where the hero and villain agree to team up, is that the villain suggests the alliance. "Do you want vengence, or a solution?" Xanatos remains so pragmatic here it's astounding. And for the record, I personally do like the fade-out on the handshake.
Waiting for Part 3
I don't think Demona thought Gil was lying OR mistaken. She figured she did scratch him at some point. She just didn't care. It was of no significance.
Thanks for the comments. Keep 'em coming.
Some time ago, I heard a fellow "Gargoyles" fan say that he considered Matt something of a hypocrite in that, while he was setting out to expose the Illuminati to the world, he was willingly joining in the efforts to keep the gargoyles a secret and hiding them, even after he became the head of the Gargoyle Task Force - and also condemned Elisa for keeping the gargoyles a secret, especially from Captain Chavez. I didn't agree with that person, feeling that there was a difference between exposing a ruthless and machiavellian secret society that's meddling in everybody's lives and exposing a group of extremely rare beings who have to hide from the world because most humans consider them monsters and would hunt them down if they knew about them, but I felt vaguely bothered by it, and thought that I'd ask you what your thoughts on the matter were.
My reasoning is similar to yours, but I can also live with the notion that Matt is in fact being a bit of a hypocrite -- for a good cause.
As a writer, I LIKE the stress that dilemma will eventually cause. Human beings are complex. We contain multitudes.
Hi Greg,
In your latest beat sheet for the series opener, I see that the idea of the Trio being young and inexperienced was still prominant. I understand where you came from in eventually changing that, but when I first watched AWAKENING I was distraught by the Trio. Every gargoyle we saw was a full-fledged warrior. Where _were_ the inexperienced kids? The elderly? It seemed slightly out-of-sync that the Trio were such able-bodied fighters. Was the Viking attack a real threat or wasn't it?
That is just my original impression of the events of the initial Viking attack. Later on, when the gang counterattacks the camp, I can understand their participation.
I guess the battle just came off too light-heartedly when we glimped the Trio, starkly contrasting with characters like Goliath's and Demona's scenes. A real sense of danger is added by Hakon drawing Goliath's blood, boulders crashing into stone, refugees huddling about, the Captain barking orders, etc. But then we have the Trio gallavanting through the battle like it's, as Brooklyn puts it, just "fun."
I think their innocense could have been portrayed in a way that didn't detract from the realism that was so effectively installed earlier on.
This isn't intended to come off as pure criticism. AWAKENINGS was brilliant, especially Part 1. But I thought I'd mention my first impressions.
Another little thing I noticed from the beat sheet is that the flashback originally began showing the refugees entering the castle, with the Marauders/Vikings on their tail, and then both parties camp for the day till dusk. This struck me in two ways: First, it gave me a better grip of realism. Enemy attackers camping right outside the castle, both sides waiting for the battle to begin... that could've added a cool flavor to things, and immerse us more into the medieval setting. Secondly, showing the refugees herded into the castle beforehand would've better clarified the events surrounding the battle. In the final product, we jump straight into the fight and, as a result, a reason is not even necessarily needed. The Captain's off-hand comment about refugees comes off as superfluous. I remember shrugging. 'That's nice' I thought. We were in the battle. Who needed backstory? Of course, the refugees were an important component, for the sake of Tom and his mother, and to better portray the environment of 10th century Scotland. If we'd seen the prologue to the battle, that's included in the beat sheet, I think it would've been much more effective.
I guess what this comes down to in the end is my earlier message I sent to you, in which I asked about trimming episodes with Last Time and Next Time segments. You defended, saying they were useful for tightening the episodes, but I put forth, as shown here, that some valuable stuff can be lost. Of course, it's doubtful you would've wanted or could've gotten a 6th Part to AWAKENINGS, but don't you think you could use ANY extra time you have to better flesh things out?
The trio are new to this warrior thing at the time of the Viking attack. Brooklyn takes it more seriously, and unfortunately we don't see much with Lex (not enough time in the episode). Broadway enjoys the battle and doesn't take it as seriously as he should. We did this on purpose in order to contrast his response in the second battle at the Viking encampment.
I don't think the realism was damaged (though, of course, you're entitled to your opinion). I just think we were showing a variety of responses to the stimuli at hand.
And we did show the elderly -- in the person of Hudson. We couldn't show everyone, so he stood in for all of his generation that still survived. The only group we didn't show at all were kids (Bronx's age). It was felt that it would just be too brutal to establish and show these kids -- only to have them smashed later.
As for the prologue, well, I liked it too. But talk about superfluous...
I mean, what would you have been willing to cut from the episode in exchange for adding that prologue. It's not like I can say, "Hey, we want this prologue. Let's animate an additional three minutes here." Ultimately we have an absolute time limit to every episode. A footage limit (based on budget concerns) that we are allowed to send overseas to be animated. Something had to go. And I think the Captain's line covers the necessary info. It might not be elegant. But it's servicable.
But don't start on the Previously and Next Time segments. They don't count. What I'm talking about is how much we were allowed to ANIMATE at our budget. That was limited to about twenty-two minutes and thirty seconds. Putting entire new sequences in would require us to speed up the pacing of everything else. Using thirty seconds for a PREVIOUSLY segment allows us to tighten pacing and cut out bad frames of animation once something is animated. Because, the truth is, nothing ever came back to us PERFECT. NOTHING.
So AGAIN, had I cut all those previously and next time segments you would not have gotten any extra scenes. You just would have had the scenes you saw with some bad animation and pacing left in. And if there's still bad animation and pacing in there -- well, trust me, we used those thirty seconds to cut out the worst of it.
We clear now?
i'd just like to make a comment about gargoyles kissing. i think that stroking the brow ridges or hair is an extremely intelligent and important things in the garg series. first of all, it gives them some culture very different from humans and second, given that many gargs have beaks kissing becomes kinda hard to do. i'm surprised that Broadway and Angela kiss but i understand Greg's explanation that this is because of human influences on these two. good job, Greg, these subtle differences between humans and gargs really gives depth to the show!
Thanks.
I was reading your "beat sheet" for the pilot you drew up, and it seemed that at first you didn't intend for Demona to be Goliath's mate. What made you change it, if you hadn't planned it since the beginning?
I'm not sure how you could have possibly gotten that impression. It may not have been spelled out on that document, but we always intended that Demona and Goliath were mates.
CITY OF STONE
[flexes fingers] Gonna be doing a LOT of typing about this one.
The opening scenes with the hostage situation are pretty good (Terrorist fires off a round of gun-fire and Matt wryly responds, "Think they're starting to see it our way?" The more I think about it, the more I realize how fun this guy is).
Slow person that I am, I didn't pick up on the Weird Sisters' oddity until they started talking to Goliath. Then they disappeared and that sort of clinched it. I knew they were talking about Demona (an idea probably helped by my reading a "Disney Adventures" article on GARGOYLES that litterally described her as a "Gargoyle terrorist").
The heretofore(sp?) unseen conversation between Demona and the Captain is finally revealed (and thanks to your ramble, the reason Demona looked a bit aged in some of the shots--that always drives me CRAZY!). On about my second viewing (I'm still slow) I finally picked up that the "Dawn Attack" was a back-up plan, and the original plan was attacking at night with the gargoyles away from the castle.
It always kills me to see Demona ALMOST tell Othello and Desdemona...and then not. Just like it always kills me later when she ALMOST accepts responsibility for what just happened...and then pushes it off on the humans. The first time I saw that, I was almost literally left breathless, it just seemed so...I don't know--I really cannot describe what that scene made me feel.
Backtracking a bit--The "Tears of Stone" are indeed a nice touch. Very effective, even the second time. In fact that whole sequence where Demona kisses the Goliath statue good-bye is one of the more heartbreaking parts in the series (especially considering the fact that now Demona tries to KILL Goliath).
Love the shattered "Coldstone-head" and Demona's anguished wail/roar; an excellent Act-ender.
The Eggs--You're right, I never gave them a thought after Xanatos mentioned them. Even after this, I didn't give them much thought, for much the same reason as Todd (a thousand years? Honey, they're dead by now--Avalon? Well now, that's different).
Gillcomgain (however you spell it). I liked the trickle of blood that came through his hands after Demona had slashed him. That's just the fiend in me.
Back in the present:
I entirely bought Demona's story about how she lived forever. Xanatos' interest in immortality caught me by surprise a bit. Wasn't this like the first time his desire to live forever was brought up?
"Listen, or watch, but not both." I wondered why Xanatos seemed so intent about this, and it took Hudson's explanation in the next episode for me to catch on. But I like it. It gives that extra complication to the magic.
Yeah, Owen being mesmerized and lifted into a chair while Demona gave the final phrase of the spell was a bit of a cheat. I try to rationalize it, like always (she...had a special talisman palmed in her hand--yeah, yeah!).
Then the Weird Sisters as "Modern Maidens" (if you will). Yeah, Phoebe looking at Seline while she's addressing Luna is a bit aggrivating, but on my tape, as she's finishing the line, after turning her head to Seline, Pheobe's eyes look back in Luna's direction. Maybe in times of great excitement Pheobe just gets her sisters mixed up (for half a second).
Demona and the guards. Yeah, she did NOT age well. The guards--in my mind, they're dead (that mace coming down seemed pretty final to me). I liked that about this 4-parter--people actually DIED. It added more emotional weight.
Demona's Second (I KNEW IT! I just KNEW that was John Rhys-Davies doing his voice). Yeah, I like him too, probably because he was the only other gargoyle in Demona's band who spoke and managed to develop a definitive personality (even when he wasn't speaking, his animated actions/reactions were great). Considering what happens to him off-screen in part 4...so much for not personalizing the victims.
The Weird Sisters as gargoyles--good, and I love their designs.
Ah, the happy days of Macbeth's youth. Like Todd, I find it all the more despicable of Duncan to order Findlaech's(sp?) death after Findlaech's true pledge of loyalty. Bodhe's cowerdice did register for me, but I only REALLY began to take full note of it as the multi-parter progressed and in later viewings.
The Hunter (I LOVE that title--any one word title that has a "The" before it just really piques my fancy). Yeah, I knew it was Gillcomgain (thanks to the painted scars on the mask). Yeah, the more I thought on it the less sense it made that no one would suspect him with those scars on his face. Still, he did wear a hood, and the very nature of his business may make a few people want to overlook any similarities, assuming they even had time to make note of the scars on the Hunter's mask before he A) gutted them or B) disappeared again.
Findlaech's death is the "fall-death," but I don't mind it too much here, and Macbeth's reaction makes it all the more tragic.
Demona saves the young couple. It's actually nice to see her make the "good-guy" choice here. It still shows a glimmer of what she once was, as opposed to how she now acts.
Unfortunately, no I never got the impression that Gillcomgain was going to attack Prince Duncan. But on the plus side the Weird Sisters' appearance really gave the scene an extra impact.
For the record, I was thrilled when I heard Jim Cummings as the Hunter--I think this guy does great voice work.
It was nice seeing Fox here (I had forgotten that in the original outline Derek was the pilot. I'm probably being redundant, but I'm glad you guys were able to go with Fox, it personalizes things even more for Xanatos). And the whole "humans turned to stone" thing really worked for me. When Owen changed, it was just shock--seeing the true nature of the spell. Fox's, more amazing for the danger it put both her and Xanatos in at that moment. Elisa's...her's was the eeriest, due in part to the camera shot and the closing music. I couldn't wait to see the next episode.
Be careful with the rest of these rambles--When it comes to CITY OF STONE I tend to be very long winded and go over almost every scene.
Fine with me. I'm having fun reading everyone's responses. The more detailed the better.
Jim R. and i were just discussing how to get certain with-held info from you by tricking you when we realized just how ruthless we fans can be. thats okay, cuz your smart-ass responses are worth not getting the answers we seek. keep up the good work!!!
Uh, thanks. SO... you and Jim R. are a team?
Oh. And here I thought he was picking on you.
Me so dumb.
I always loved City of Stone 1-4.
My favorite moments :
- Demona smashing the soldiers at the food raid. Vengeance never tasted so cold.
- Gillecomegain entrance at Moray. Nice cloak.
- Demona ripping the mask off Gillecomegain. Demona never realized that she ruined a little boy's life.
- Duncan quote about the mask to baby Canmore.
- The coronation of Luach by Bodhe. Very dramatic.
- Final battle at the Eyrie Building. The double-punch by Demona-MacBeth at Goliath was priceless.
- Xanatos' quote about 'fire at them, sort this out later'.
- The mask passing from one Hunter to another during the whole series.
- And of course, Oeqn's note about 'even cable'.
My only complaints:
- Demona waiting all night to make up her mind on revealing or not her bargain with the captain.
- Demona didn't slaughter Katherine and Magus to retake the eggs.
- Gillecomegain putting the mask to kill MacBeth. Hey buddy, you only for the hunt!
- MacBeth comment about Robots/Gargoyles taking off from the world tallest building in a frozen city. Frozen or not, you can still notice Robots/Gargoyles taking off from the world tallest building.
Yes, but there are fewere distractions.
My ramble-response on "City of Stone Part Two".
I very much enjoyed it (like the other parts of "City of Stone"). A few specific thoughts:
The 11th century flashbacks continued to be good ones. I particularly liked Macbeth and Gruoch's scene on the hill, the "villains-fall-out" part between Duncan and Gillecomgain, and Duncan's afterwards duping Macbeth into going against Gillecomgain. (One thing that I recently found myself wondering was whether Duncan was hoping to trick Macbeth into killing Gillecomgain for him as a means of disposing of a former henchman who was now becoming of a problem to him, as a means of forcing Gillecomgain into killing Macbeth by having Macbeth attack him, or maybe even whether he was hoping that they'd kill each other and get rid of two problems for him at once).
One thing that strikes me about the Duncan of "City of Stone" (here already in the first two parts and even more in Part Three): he's a lot closer to the Macbeth of Shakespeare than the Macbeth of "City of Stone" is. Duncan is here the one who ensures a clear path to the throne by murdering the opposition; furthermore, he moves against Macbeth in a manner almost evocative of Macbeth's moving against Banquo in the play, because of the fear that Macbeth will cheat him and his future lineage of the throne. (It strikes me as significant that Duncan renews his scheming against Macbeth after Canmore's birth, as if that was the catalyst for it: now he has a future dynasty to protect, rather than just his own personal ambitions). The one significant difference is that the Duncan of "Gargoyles" never shows any of the internal torment or remorse that the Macbeth of Shakespeare shows over his criminal deeds; apparently Prince Duncan is much more hardened and callous.
I also like the touch of Demona genuinely failing to recognize Gillecomgain as the boy she attacked back in 994, even after he spells it out to her. (Definitely fits Demona's character a lot).
For the present-day parts: I liked Jeffrey Robbins' return, and thought that it was well-integrated into the story. Demona's massacre was very chilling. As for Xanatos shutting off the broadcast, I picked up on later showings the notion that he initially thought that that would be enough to undo Demona's spell, but I'm not so certain that it occurred to me the first time around.
The thing that interests me most about the ending, actually, isn't so much Xanatos and Goliath calling a truce as the fact that it's Xanatos who brings up the need for a truce with the words "Do you want vengeance, or a solution?" Temporary truces between the hero and the villain over a common foe happen often in adventure cartoons - but how often is it the villain who realizes the need for it first and has to convince the hero of it? The line tells us a lot, I think, about Xanatos's uniqueness: he has common sense, and the clear understanding that finding a way to undo Demona's spell is a much greater priority than just looking for someone to punish.
Looking forward to the rambles on the remaining two parts.
me too for yours...
Jim R., i think that Greg explained time travel pretty well and it makes sense to me. if you were to go back in time to save JFK one way or another you failed cuz JFK was assasinated! its like Xanatos said, "You won't, because you didn't. Time travels funny, that way." you wouldn,t succeed it saving JFK because you obviously didn't save him, he was killed despite what you would do. another example is "M.I.A." Goliath knew from meeting Leo and Una that Griff didn't come home that night so when he went back in time even if he did everything to keep Griff in his time something else would have happened. Griff would have been killed etc. time is like a river and any attempt to change it will end in failure because if history had been changed you would never had wanted to try and change it in the first place! does all this make sense?
Yeah!
I just returned from a vacation in Disney Land. (Boy, was it crowded!) So I figured that I could find some Gargoyle merchandise there; those stores have everything Disney. I walked into one, then another...and another...and another...with no luck. Not a single piece of Gargoyles merchandise anywhere in the park!!!
In one store, I asked an employee, "Do you have any Gargoyles stuff?"
He replied, "I...don't know what you mean...I don't know what a Gargoyles is."
It's nice to know that Disney employees know so much about there company's works. (And they use good grammar, too!) I have searched everywhere for Garg stuff, without luck. Where can I find it? Why isn't there any to be found; especially in Disney Land?
I don't know. It's a source of much frustration to me, believe me.
"CITY OF STONE"
I first watched this about four years ago. I'd seen some of the later episodes of "Gargoyles" when we got the Disney Channel for the first time in the summer but I only saw a few episodes before they stopped airing the show. Later episodes - "EYE OF THE BEHOLDER", "THE GREEN", "THE NEW OLYMPIANS" and "CLOUD FATHERS" through to "THE GATHERING" PART ONE). You can imagine how it was to wait 14 months to find out how it ended. Anyway, I stumbled across the first part of "AWAKENING" completely by accident on GMTV one morning only a few weeks later. When they got to "REAWAKENING", they had a little advert in the break - for the next two weeks they planned to show two back-to-back episodes, and they showed teasers which made me sit up in my seat - Demona smashing stone humans with her "another human bites the dust" line being the one that always rings in my mind.
So, of course, I tuned in. I think, in hindsight, that I missed out by not having the cliffhangers to parts 1 and 3 in the same way. But I still feel now about part 1 as I did then. It's probably the most chilling cliffhanger you did. "HUNTER'S MOON" had two dramatic ones and I guess part 1 of that certainly ranks as quite scary. But I didn't see that until over a year later (GMTV only showed about 30 episodes and I had to wait until Disney started again). By that time, I'd seen many of the "Goliath Chronicles" episodes and had found a clip online showing "They did this to her," but cutting out the final "and I will kill them". Anyway, this cliffhanger I came to completely cold.
I think it's the music that gets me. It's so perfectly controlled and quiet, and pairs so well with the still face of Elisa. And the accompanying loose ends were fascinating too. For one, the stone humans - I knew what was going to happen to some of them from the teaser of Demona's smashing spree and this didn't do anything to lessen my appreciation of it. But then there was Xanatos and Fox. Bear in mind that at this point, I hadn't seen "VOWS" and hadn't yet realised that season 2 was being aired out of continuity. I remembered that they had a baby in "THE GATHERING" though, and was pretty hooked by their characters as such. Owen and Fox added to the drama really well: Fox's 'what can I say, I was curious' line is great and beautifully read. Same with Owen's 'Demona lied to us'. It's so simple, so urgent - a real panicked Owen. Loved it. Xanatos didn't have any particular outstanding dialogue here, but the animation on him is great. You're right - having a show where you really care about the villains, heck having a show where you can have a 4-part story where the problem is created by and solved by the villains (if you include the Weird Sisters and Xanatos), is something pretty special as well.
Basically, this is my favourite of the three cliffhangers. (Part 2's grew on me a lot. Part 3's lost its impact.)
As for Macbeth, I already was fascinated by him. I'd seen him only about five weeks ago in 'ENTER MACBETH' and the name intrigued me. So did the character. And it didn't hurt that his debut episode was great as well. (I can't help wondering how I'd have felt about Macbeth here had I seen 'LIGHTHOUSE' first - Macbeth appeared a lot less mysterious and a lot more villainous there). I never thought it was the same Macbeth that Shakespeare had written about. And I don't remember the naming thing being of particular interest to me. My reaction was more 'yes, it's Macbeth!', rather than 'wow, maybe we'll find out how he named her'. I can't remember when I realised he was in it either (whether he was in the ad or not). But I was bowled for six when I realised that he was the real Macbeth. And I knew nothing about the actual history of Macbeth at the time, although I'd seen several Shakepeare plays in the adaptation series that the BBC ran recently.
It was nice to see Matt too. I notice in your original draft you included Derek in place of Fox. Now, Fox is perfect for the situation but I'd seen 'HER BROTHER'S KEEPER' only a little while ago and Derek really impressed me - I couldn't wait to see how that story turned out. (And even longer to see 'THE CAGE' after that!). Anyway, I always thought it was a pity we didn't see more of Derek working for Xanatos. (Although since 'METAMORPHOSIS' is so early in the season I guess I now see why).
The Wyvern rerun. I'm so glad that you included some revision on the Demona/Captain betrayal thing. I'd seen 'AWAKENING' pretty recently (well, a few months anyway). But still, seeing episodes a week apart and the fact that the story was quite complicated led me to be thankful that there was some explanation. I only got confused once. I mixed up the Magus and the Archmage in 'VOWS'. Eventually I realised that I should just stick a tape in and should have done this from the very start. I regretted that immensely, especially with this story.
And yeah, it was painfully obvious that Macbeth was Macbeth. I didn't care. I was just desperate to see more of the guy. Not as much as the Weird Sisters though. What a presence. Every time they appeared they confused the hell out of me and I loved it.
Of course, I didn't really have to wait very long for part 2 and so most of what I remember is mixed up with that. So I'd better wait for your next ramble to say more…
Wow. The good news is that seeing everything out of order didn't seem to stop you from enjoying the show.
The frustrating thing though is wondering why the heck they WOULD show it all out of order?
Oh, one other thing about "City of Stone Part One" that I forgot to mention. One touch that I liked was the bit about Findlaech's declaration of loyalty to Prince Duncan. I particularly liked it because of the light that it gives to Duncan's having Findlaech assassinated: not only was it an evil deed, but it was also unnecessary. Findlaech really didn't have any plans to put Macbeth on the throne and outmaneuver Duncan. So Duncan would have become King anyway without needing to send the Hunter over to Castle Moray. In fact, by having Findlaech assassinated, he wound up moving one step closer to the very future that he feared (Macbeth becoming king in his place).
You might almost view it as a parallel to Demona's helping to bring about the Wyvern Massacre, partly to avert the vision that she'd seen in "Vows" (assuming that my suspicion is correct that Demona believed that the massacre had been carried out by Princess Katharine's people; as I mentioned before, the Demona from 1995 tells her only that the humans did it without saying which humans, which could make misinterpretation very easy). In each case, the very attempt that the character makes to avoid an undesired future helps to bring about that future. The old self-fulfilling prophecy business again. (And it crops up, of course, even more in Part Three).
Yep. It's a classic. The real "Oedipus Complex" if you ask me.
After having read your ramble on "City of Stone Part One", I thought that I'd give my own response on it.
I've already given a previous comment on "City of Stone" focusing more on Demona and Macbeth than on the gargs, and how while I usually don't like episodes of a series that focus mainly on the antagonists and leave the protagonists to one side, this occasion was different, and why I believe that to be. So I'll move on to other matters.
1. About the Eggs: To tell the truth, I honestly hadn't given their fate in the series any real thought (beyond the fact that I did believe that Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom had taken good care of them) for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the present day. I didn't think it likely that gargoyles naturally lived for a thousand years (and of course, we now know that they don't and that Demona's only managed it because of the Weird Sisters' help), so I assumed that the eggs had long ago hatched, and the young gargoyles grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before Xanatos ever relocated Castle Wyvern to New York. I hadn't anticipated the possibility of a place such as Avalon where time moved slower. So I simply hadn't given any thought to the eggs having any impact on present-day events in the Gargoyles Universe.
2. The first set of flashbacks, the one to the Wyvern Massacre of 994, felt very effective to me - I particularly find Demona's grieving farewell to a stone Goliath extremely moving (and the musical accompaniment fits it very well). You'd have to have a heart of stone (pun not intended) to remain unmoved by it, as well. And the "What have I - what have they done?" moment is a memorable and chilling point for me. (One thing that I've noticed is how often Demona comes close to realizing her error and turning around for the better - and then she rejects the opportunity and the moment passes. Kind of sad, really).
3. I must confess that the subtle hints about Owen's true nature slipped past me; I hadn't equated the "tricky" adjective with "trickster" as in "Puck the trickster". I was just assuming, I suppose, that Demona was considering Owen the more cunning of the two (which I mentally disagreed with since I don't like to imagine Xanatos as less smart than Owen).
And I'd also noticed the way that Demona magically overpowers Owen at the same time that she's reading the spell, and felt a bit puzzled by it. It seemed to me almost as if she was casting two spells at once.
4. The 1020 flashback: The big thing that I thought that I'd say about the Macbeth flashbacks here (for the entire four-parter, actually) is that I do feel that I was better prepared for the differences between the "Gargoyles" Macbeth and the Shakespearean Macbeth than most of the viewers may have been, since I'd read up on the historical Macbeth already. So I knew a good deal of the data about him that showed up in "City of Stone". I knew that Gruoch was the real name of the historical Lady Macbeth (and so I could immediately guess as to the role of the character Gruoch in "City of Stone" when she was first introduced). I knew that Macbeth was, in actual history, a much better king than Duncan was, and that he had overthrown Duncan in battle rather than murdering him in his sleep. I knew about Duncan's son Malcolm being nicknamed Canmore (the name that "Gargoyles" used for him). So I felt quite prepared for the story that "City of Stone" used.
The one case where the Shakespeare version did throw me was when, in the course of watching this episode for the first time, I thought "Findlaech being given as the name of Macbeth's father? But I thought that it was Sinell." (The name of Macbeth's father in the play). But then that evening, I happened to be reading something up on the historical Macbeth, and discovered that his father was indeed named Findlaech - which quite amazed and impressed me. (I also spotted Gillecomgain on Macbeth's family tree as Gruoch's first husband, and was astounded to discover that the first Hunter was a real historical figure thereby; I had known before, however, that in actual history Gruoch had been married to somebody else before Macbeth, and about Luach/Lulach).
5. The bits at the end with Owen, Fox, and Elisa turning to stone were very chilling to me; I'd known that something nasty was going to happen from Demona's spell, but not what, and when we actually saw it take place, it definitely felt spooky. And it's certainly a great cliffhanger, as you said (and I hadn't even noticed that the cliffhanger was directed more towards Xanatos and his associates than to the protagonists).
6. I had indeed believed, for a while, that Demona's spell was how she survived - though by the end of Part Four, I knew otherwise.
At any rate, I thought that it was a great episode, and a great beginning to the second season's first multi-parter. Thanks for the ramble, Greg.
And thank you for yours. I enjoy reading your responses to things. They're well thought out and, hey, flattering.
i just watched "Heritage" today. i didn't like this episode for a long time but i've started to like it more and more. i think this episode forshadowed the rest of the series even more than "Future Tense" did.
for instance, when Goliath is in the water and shouts, "Elisa!!" it sounds and looks exactly like Elisa's "death Scene" in "Hunter's Moon III" and Elisa and Goliath's reunion really shows their growing relationship, so much so that i had never thought of those two as a possible couple until this episode (i know, i must have been an idiot not to see it).
"Heritage" also really shows that while Angela is very intelligent she is also very naive about the world outside of Avalon. i don't think she really begin to understand the way the world works until "The Reckoning".
Also, when the whole world tour began i figured Goliath and co. would meet other gargs somewhere and i was so anxious for this that i was fooled into believeing those gargs were real even after Grandmother said that there were no gargs there. poor Goliath, he thought he finally found another clan...
its a good episode, Greg. like "Turf" and "The Silver Falcon" i kinda grew to really like this episode alot!
I'm glad.
I think there are a lot of wonderful things in there. And I just felt we couldn't NOT do a story about totem poles.
Happy New Year!
What are your New Years resolutions, Greg? I'm hoping one of them is to get Gargoyles back on the air. But I'm sure you've had that one on your list for at least 2-3 years, right?
If matt was the first to post in 2001, then I hope to be the last person to post today (01/01/01).
Jim.
I think it's officially time you lay off matt. It's not funny anymore.
As for my resolutions, I think I'll keep those private right now. (Then no one knows if I don't achieve them.)
Re your comment on changing Broadway's character from female to male:
Well, maybe it was cowardice, but I'm certain that it was a good thing for Angela that you did. She wouldn't have been able to have had a S&P-approved relationship with Broadway otherwise, after all :)
Now, I can't really imagine it any other way.
City of Stone...what a great miniseries! Not one of my specific favorite sets of episodes, but I love how everything storywise came together ('what a tangled web we weave'!) I ADORE continuing story lines, which is why I never got into many 'sitcom' cartoons. (I DO admit having a weakness for "Freakazoid", though...)
And thanks for explaining that whole screw up with Demona looking too old in that 'new' scene with the Captain of the Guard. That has always annoyed the heck outta me, but I wasn't thinking along the lines of the poor animators trying to keep things straight. Considering I want to go into some type of animation, I feel guilty for not being more thoughtful! ^_^
Now, on to some questions/musings/etc...
"If it turns out short, we can add the bit about 'Birnam Wood coming to Dunsinane', which I've left out for now."
1>You planned to use this witches' prophecy from the play in the show? How were you going to fit it in exactly?
This was one of my favorite ironies in the play (now that I've read it!), right next to the prophecy about Mac not being killed 'by a man of woman-born'. And if you think about it, that irony _was_ portrayed in the series. Demona isn't woman-born, and she certainly ain't a man! ^_~
"He gets in his helicopter heading for Studio, with Derek at pilot."
2> You mean you didn't have "Metamorphosis" planned out at this point in time? Or were you just confused? Or am I just confused...?
"Duncan goes to destroy them starting with Demona."
3> Whoa, hold on! I just thought of something...how'd Duncan know about Gil's feud with Demona specifically? Did Gil tell him? And did he pass on the legend of "The Demon" down to Canmore? How did the Eternal Hunt for the Demon get passed down (I mean, how did future Canmores specifcally know to hunt HER?)
"Duncan is killed in some way. (Preferably the same way Find & Gil bought it.)"
4> Well, we know he DIDN'T die this way. How did that whole magical orb thing come into the picture? Who's idea was it? (Yours? Mr. Reaves?)
"...To Demona, who is having a grand old time with the 'stoners'..."
"...She's practically giddy, talking to herself and the 'stoners'..."
"...In the skies above Manhattan, Xanatos & Goliath fly abreast for a moment as they 'pass gas'..."
>No questions here, I just thought that was funny. ^_~
>Hmm...I just ran this by spell check, and it suggested "manatees" for "Xanatos". How the heck do you get _manatees_ outta that?! There's no "X" in manatees! Sheesh!
Ciao, thanks again!
~H\A~
1. Honestly, I no longer remember exactly. But it would have been part of Canmore's attack on Castle Moray. The one where Demona switched sides.
1a. I liked that irony too.
2. We didn't have the order of things planned out at that time. We knew Metamorphosis was coming. Didn't yet know where it would fall.
3. He didn't. (Now I think one of us IS confused.) She was hunted (a) because she was the only one left (as far as they knew) and (b) because of a little mishap with Canmore and one of his sons that I haven't told you about yet.
4. I don't remember. I'm guessing Michael (or Lydia or Brynne). Maybe they remember. Come to the Gathering this June in L.A. and ask them. All three will be there. (End of plug #562 in a series.)
5. Gotta keep myself amused, you know.
Hi Greg,
We've all been awaiting this ramble for a long time, and no doubt, the coming weeks will be VERY enjoyable. :)
CITY OF STONE, PT 1.
I'll admit to you that the opening terrorist sequence wasn't all that effective to me. It came off rushed. But it provided an excellent transition to Demona. And then... THE FLASHBACK. The first of many. My God, this was glorious. I always imagine that if I were to ever show off Gargoyles to someone new in under 5 minutes I'd show them this flashback. Even though deductive reasoning filled the holes that this flashback does in, it was still such an experience actually seeing it take place, like witnessing history. The Wyvern Massacre was the defining moment of the series. And now, to see the behind-the-scenes was breathtaking beyond description. Demona's tearful turn to stone, then horrific discovery at sundown were amazing. That 'blood-curdle' music is just great, too.
Let's see, I can't go on like this with every scene, so I'll try to sum up from here.
You mentioned it was originally going to be a three-parter. Allow me to accidentally spit my drink all over my keyboard at reading that. Even now, I think about how much better it could've told its story with five or even six parts. Just three? Impossible. There is so much jammed in there. Too much, really. I'm glad you're here for insight, because I'll be honest: I got scarcely any of what you had in mind for various characters' motivations and inter-relating. Everything was crunched to 'sound bites' and didn't get enough flesh for me to interpret what you were aiming for. Of course, I got all the necessary things needed to understand the flow of the story, but I regret not getting the rest...
This is completely random, but I just thought I'd say that when Macbeth removes his Hunter's Mask later, in Part 4 I think, I like how his hair was ruffled. A nice touch. Very appreciated.
Anyway, to do with Part 1, I have really one more comment. I think the "mistake" you made with the Weird Sisters in their portrayel in this multi-parter has to do with just one key scene... aww, crap, here I go referring all the way to Part 4 again. Oh well, the scene in question is the very end, the "they are our responsibility... our children... that is a story for another day" scene. Up until then, I believe our impression of the Sisters was of benevolent helpers, like you wanted us to believe, according to your memos. However, in this scene, they suddenly "reveal" that they actually had a reason for helping them. That there is a greater design. That Demona and Macbeth have destinies to fulfill. I, and I'm sure most other people, suddenly got insanely excited thinking that D&M were going to be instrumental in saving the world from some great prophecy or something. But as it turns out, it's just a petty strike on an island...
Just my take. (I'd be interested - if this doesn't sound like me usurping your forum, Greg - in what others' takes were.)
Lastly, I just thought I'd mention that, ironically, I was talking with a friend this morning about the play Macbeth. I mentioned Gargoyles and off-handedly about its superior historical accuracy, to which Friend reponded that Macbeth, the play, was fiction. I insisted there really was a Macbeth and Duncan, but he was convinced otherwise. Interesting, huh?
Of course, I myself thought it was all made-up by you and the makers of the show till I looked it up in my Encyclopedia, to see what kind of historical "damage" you were doing in drawing these elaborate tales set in real countries' pasts... heh.
Again, the sisters have many aspects. Like the moon. Vengeance was certainly one. Petty vengeance at that. But they have other motivations as well. That is a story for another day.
(And I'm always interested in other takes. I welcome them here.)
As to Macbeth and the legends/history, we always tried to be as accurate as we could. Not necessarily out of benevolence, but because the truth, when mixed with our gargs, made for such GREAT stories!
You're friend needs to be dragged into a library. It never bothers me when people don't know things. But it sure is disturbing when they're positive they know something and they're wrong.
Hello again.
After checking a great website called Encyclopedia Mythica (probably the most extensive list of mythology) I discovered an interesting tidbit on a being that might make the unusual depiction of the Banshee in the Garg universe understandible. The creature there is called a Baobhan Sith, and on a different webpage, it is considered to be another name for the Banshee.
This being is supposed to be a fairy-vampire. Interesting to note that it is supposed to wear green clothes, like the Banshee of the series. Interesting.
Yeah.
City of Stone 1 ramble:
The Revelation about the Weird Sisters double agent motiviations was a thrill to read. It worked on me exactly like you said it did...did you have a camera inside our heads? Those are still the most wonderfully mysterious fey ever...I loooove Kathie Soucie's voicework.
In the top 5 of the most heart and gut wrenching scenes ever, Demona turinng to stone with a tear in her eye, the massacre finding scene (I thought "COLDSTONE!!!" when she picked up the piece of face) and her tearful goodbye to Goliath and any hope of a non-vengeful life.
1. Eggs: I never gave any thought to the eggs, but once they were shown driven away, it just opened up a whole new subplot to wonder about.
2. MacBeth, I was wondering about, he was neither a hero, nor a villian, something grey in between, which is always the best character. Young Macbeth and Young Gruoch certainly had to grow up fast. Loved the battle scene between Young MacBeth the Hunter and his "Nooooo!" Bodhe seemed to be a shrewed negotiator...probalby would make a good ambasador.
3. I really thought that was how Demona got her immortality, from the Grimorum. Why the heck not? Xanatos seemed to be desperate enough to trust her. Either he would have used the spell on Fox if it worked on him, or he didn't love her enough to ask her about it...wouldn't he have tested it on somebody first?
4. Yeah, Owen being caught by the spell was a bit cheating...but that's okay. :) Never even thought about the "tricky one" comment until I saw the Gathering. Once again, love the latin spells, gives the show authenticity, plus latin sounds just really darn cool and mystical.
Overall, the fact that this show provides wonderful backstories for the "villians" in a FOUR PARTER episode just goes to show why this is on nearly everybody's top 5 best episodes list.
Questions: 1. What did Standards and Practices think about the implications of Goliath and Elisa's relationship by the end of the series?
2. Who came up with the brilliant idea of the access code being "ALONE"? That just fits so well. Thanks so much for these episode rambles!
1. They weren't thinking ahead, just responding to what was before them. Our S&P executive on the first 65, Adrienne Bello, was very good at seeing the forest for the trees. She was rational and a pleasure to work with. The kiss was fine and earned after 65 episodes.
2. I don't remember. Me or Michael or Brynne or Lydia, I imagine.
Comment:
Shutting off the broadcast, did not make me think that would work in breaking the spell and I thought it foolish of Xanatos to be so sure that it would work. I thought I was going to see a bit of hesitation and uncertainty in Xanatos right before he shuts off the broadcast. It seemed too simple a solution. In many experiences, it's easier to start something, but a bit more complicated to end it.
I did pick up on the fact that Demona recognized and knew the true identity of the person behind the mask when they felt each other's pain, an incident which I found rather interesting and wanted to learn more about it.
I do like Xanatos' line "You want vengeance or a solution." Something a true businessman would say. Put all your personal feelings aside and let's get right down to business , this needs to be fixed right away. That line is totally Xanatos.
Then at the end when Xanatos and Goliath shook hands...I didn't like it. I thought Goliath too forgiving....I mean shaking the hands of a man who's attacked you, paid people to attack you, manipulated you, and evicted you from the only home you've ever known....to shake hands with that man after only one situation where they had to work together and call a truce....for me...it was too soon. I think they should have just nodded to each other
when they parted...letting the other know that they appreciated the other's help, but I still don't trust you. Sometimes I don't blame Demona for being so upset at Goliath and calling him a fool....because sometimes he's too trusting and forgiving....but then again that's why I love him.
Thanks again, Greg, for helping to create a fascinating
series which I will continue to watch on tape and adore.
You're welcome.
But shaking hands is literally a symbol of truce in medieval times. Goliath's time. It shows that you're not carrying weapons. Notice they didn't grasp forearms, which is how Goliath greets his friends. They shook hands. A symbol of their deal. A display of non-aggression.
Whether or not you think Goliath's too trusting and forgiving, I don't see this as an example of that.
Hi Greg,
Your always asking for some feed-back, and well here's mine, well it's more of my thoughts of a certain character--Demona. In the show she always seemed to filled with so much hatred, hatred for every one it seemed. Seeing the person she was before and after the raid of the castle really made me think. Having my own bad days, like every one else, I know what it feels like to "hate" the world, and during those days I realise it takes more strength to stay mad at the world than it does to "like" it. So thinking of Demona always being so full hate all the time is really sad, of course in a way she put herself in it...it was her own hatred for humans that did her brothers and sisters "in". Of course she'll never understand this, I guess her pride gets in her way some times, like every one does. In closeing I would like to say that I think Demona was a good character to throw in, it made the viewers see what a long time of hatred does to the heart.
Thanks. We tried to get that across in a non-simplistic way. I'm gratified that it worked so well for so many people.
Why is Angela so DAMN sexy? Oh I love her SO much! Dude, do you think she'd go for a blonde-haired punk? I mean, her own dad even went for a human, so maybe there's hope for me yet. Hmm...I bet you're gonna give me a smart-ass remark like "she's taken" or something cuz "gargoyles mate for life" BUT Demona proved that it is not true! Go me! Long live the beautiful Angela!
Hey, good luck, man. More power to you.
[Poor slob.]
Greg
Just read your rambling about COS part 2 and I must confess I didn't ever pick up on Goliaths intention on killing Demona. It makes sense even though it would have been futile. Still, say he did try it (Big IF I know), I wonder what her reaction would be. As often as she's thrown his feelings for her back in his face, she'd view his attempt to kill her as a sign that his sentimental weakness regarding her was over. On the other hand, would it be so shocking that Demona would express sorrow that Goliath's feeling for her had so diminshed that he was capable of killing her?
I think she'd be effected on many levels, including those you've named.
Addressed to "matt":
About Goliath "abandoning" the eggs: There IS no justification for him leaving the responsibility of taking care of the eggs to Princess Katherine and the Magus. BUT I do "understand" why. Perhaps it was because he was so depressed and traumatized he couldn't think things all the way through. Perhaps because he didn't feel himself "suitable" or "worthy" of taking care of the eggs and that even the humans would do a better job than he would; he must have blamed himself and not just the captain of the guard and Hakon for what happened at Wyvern. He must have felt he deserved the fate of the surviving members of the clan. And it seems that you have forgotten how sincerely remourseful the Princess and Magus were toward Goliath and how they offered to do anything they could for him. It wasn't as if they grudgingly offered to help him; so they were not very likely to go back on their promise. Also he is mortal and imperfect, and as an imperfect being he made a bad decision. Everyone makes a bad decision, and no one is codoning it, I just want to make sure you understand that.
What he (or she) said.
Why "Anonymous"?
Hi! I'm Mel from Malaysia and I just wan't to tell you that how much that I'm REALLY hooked and into your original and unique cartoon and it's colourful characters I adore. Well, actually, I do have a vast of shooting questions that might just nip your time away....But you know how Daddies monitor their 17 year old daughters, so I'll just ask a few.
1.I'm so head over heels giddy about the 'steam' between the romantic Duo(G&E), but it also kinda surprises me that the other clan member didn't mind the sparks, I mean, being two different species(I don't mind,REALLY!=]); How come? What did they see within that?
2.Should ever IF THEY have a kid, how'd Demona react to the hybrid
1. I think that it happened so gradually, that by the time it occured to everyone (but maybe Hudson), Elisa was already part of the family. Too LOVED to be rejected.
2. I don't know how to answer a hypothetical based on a hypothetical. What do I disown first?
hey, Jim R., thanks again for the kind words but stop putting quotations around my name. Matt is my real name and i'm fortunate enough that one of my favirote characters in the series shares my name! HEY, no one has emailed me!! whoops! i forgot i wasn't going to talk about non-garg stuff!!
<whistles>
i figured since i was singled out to everyone by "Jim R." earlier i'd write something about me... also cuz i like to talk about myself.:)
i don't know Greg personally but i wish i did. i ask Greg so many questions because i'm a big fan and i want to know everything about "Gargoyles" that Greg is willing (or able) to share with us. i've watched garg. since it first came on and i've come up with a lot of questions and when i came across this website i started asking them. i just really love this show! if i had one wish i'd wish for world peace, but if i had two wishes i'd wish that "Gargoyles" had its own television station and played nonstop!! to show how much a fan i am, those last two sentences instantly reminded me of Puck's "does this look like Alladin's lamp" line!!!!
anyway, so as not to clutter up this page with anymore non-garg stuff if you want to email me you can at ewoks11@hotmail.com. i'd love hearing from other fans esspecially since none of my friends were ever really into gargoyles.
and as for all my really great questions: "I can't help it if you can't keep up with Greg and me!". joke. see "Turf".
oh, and thanks for comparing me to Mr. Spock!
matt,
Your questions are always welcome. Thanks for being a fan.
And, hey, if you want to meet me, come to the Gathering convention this June in Los Angeles. I'll be there.
gerg in the chat room who is hudson?
Huh?
Greg
My aplogies for all of the typos in my previous post. Thats what I get for posting this at 2:45 in the morning.
Apology excepted.
How much fuu could a fuu dog fuu if a fuu dog could fuu fuu?
Yes, that was a variation on the How much wood could a woodchuck chuck bit... And yes, it made no sense at all. But, Timedancer Brooklyn has a fuu dog... And if you say it all really fast then add a "HEY!" to the end it's pretty fun actually. Just a fun little thing, since I can't think of any questions for you to give a smart-ass answer to at the moment...
OOOOO-Kay.
Suggestion: give "matt" his own category whenever in the "Greg Archives 3.0". I mean that as a compliment. I know, I know, what can I say...I'm done for tonight.
All I can say, Jim, is...GET OVER IT.
Greg, who is "matt"? Do you know him personally? "matt", if you're reading this, why do ask Greg so many questions? I hate to be the backseat driver here, but must you require a logical explanation for everything? Mr. Spock would think so, but geez man...
Oh, yes, and Gorebash, I know you will read this...I might be the only person just to ask how do you handle all these questions? You must be damn good at your job! Keep up the good work. I hope this gets posted. (Elvis has left the building...)
I don't know matt personally. But he's entitled to ask as many questions as he wants. I'm entitled to dodge as many as I feel like. Why?
Gorebash, I believe, has largely turned over the responsibility of reviewing questions to Todd Jensen. Todd does a great job at keeping up. Better than me.
Hmmmm, a couple of random replies that probably won't make any sense due to the lag. But what the hey.
On the G99 radio play:
<<I had some specific kind of space iron that they were vulnerable to. (I had a name for it. I can't remember it now.)>> If nobody's reminded you by now, it was Dark Iron.
From the comedy development documents:
<<Pat Riley would have had a hard time with this group.>> Hee hee, being nearly as big an NBA fan as I am a gargs fan, you have no idea how funny I find that. Now I'm trying to picture Demona in a dark suit with her hair slicked back, stalking the sidelines like a caged lion.
Oh, and Xavier promised to make Demona the head of security for Glint Enterprises? I know it's a comedy, and so perhaps not such a big deal, but I still get a grin over the idea of his security corps being introduced to their new boss.
"I guess when they said Glint Enterprises was an equal opportunity employer, they weren't kidding."
I do find it kind of ironic though, since being head of security, while primarily about power and control, does sort of fall under the "gargoyles protect" heading.
Yeah. That was the idea, I think. (But it's hard to remember.)
More of a general comment than a question, Greg. You don't have to say anything :)
I watch Demona's twice-daily transformation, and it suddenly dawns on me how excruciatingly painful that must be. Which is strange and probably silly, considering her tortured howling and screeching through it all, but I still have to wonder. As much as I hate to admit it, I myself never truly respect physical pain until I actually feel it, and afterwards I'll ''forget'' what it was like until I feel it again. Or I'll recall a time I was in ''unspeakable'' pain, and the feeling itself will be remembered vaguely at best. Pain demands respect, but it isn't as deserving or demanding as . . . oh, say, love and emotion . . . or even mental anguish, which can be far worse than its cousin physical pain.
But the point is, since Demona's situation . . . her lot of pain, both physical and mental, is unique in all the world (save for MacBeth, perhaps), I have to wonder what it's like to go through all that, to live the life of the tortured soul who won't (openly or willingly) admit she's a tortured soul to anyone but no one, even though I'd be insane to jump at the chance to experience that tapestry of pain. A small part of me, the part that wonders, wants to feel it just for the sake of knowing, and the rest of me keeps that one part small.
And when that part grows some, I imagine what it'd be like to have my feet grow several sizes and explode from my shoes like that and come to my senses :)
I guess what I'm actually saying is that "Gargoyles" really makes me think about a lot of things, perhaps even things you never intended your audience to think about or realize.
Happy Holidays, Greg. And thanks.
Wow. You're welcome. And you're right. Obviously Demona's predicament has occurred to me. But I never thought about it just that way.
The garg fans are the best. They're always thinking and finding new things in the show to think about.
And it's very gratifying.
Hi Greg. Just a few thought about the Post Hunter's Moon Demona. My sense from reading the archives is that even though her ultimate plan, representing 500 years of work, has been foiled, her resolve to destroy humanity has not weakened. I can buy this argument, but I'll admit my bias now. Another plan, even one with your usually creative flare, to destroy humanity would still seem anticlimactic to me. Plus any actions by Demona to just pick up where she left off would seem unnatural.
Hi, I've just built a nuclear in my basement and the other day I came within an inch of pushing the button. Does my life continue on as it did before? I'd hope not. There would be consequences, grave ones.
To me, Hunters Moon should be a similar watershed in Demona's plot development. I'm sure she has plenty of other ideas, but would she be allowed to act on them? Even if the Robin Canmore and her brothers keep quiet, Xanatos knows what she almost pulled off. Here is a man with the resources, the motivation, and determination to move mountains to protect his son. I'd be disappointed if he didn't react. If he knows then presumably Fox knows. I can imagine the conversation now. "Mom, you'll won't believe what that nut job Demona almost did." I'm sure Titania would have plenty to say to Demona on this matter. And then there is always the possibility of the Illuminati learning about it. I'm not advocating retribution here, but the bottom line is consequences. You play with a big fire, you get badly burned. Would Demona be allowed to continue scheming while carrying on as president of Nightstone Unlimited? I'd think her first instinct should be to go into hinding for a long while, or something... It just wouldn't feel honest if she just went back to going about her daily life as if nothing had happened.
I once saw a 60 Minutes interview with the surviving families of Herman Goering and Martin Boreman. What I chiefly took away from that show was the sence of overwhelming shame that these people lived with on a daily basis, due to the actions of their genocidal relatives. How does Angela absorb the impact of knowing just how close her mother came on Hunters Moon and not be completely devastated? What kind of a relationship would she want with her mother now that she know just how far she is willing to go?
I can go on but I think you see my point. In the Goliath Chronicles episode, Generations, no mention was made of Hunters Moon. I see that it is also played down somewhat in The Gargoyles Saga. I hope that in any of your future plans for Gargoyles, the consequences for Demonas actions are appropriately profound. Thanks for putting up with the rant.
No problem.
Keep in mind that neither Goliath Chronicles or TGS have anything to do with me or my master plan. I did plan on having Demona lay low for awhile. I did plan on repercussions. (I always do.) Obviously there would be repercussions in regard to her relationship with Angela. (Or lack there of.)
We haven't seen the last of Demona. Or her plans. But I tried not to let individual stories (let alone a big multi-parter like "H's M") to exist in a vacuum.
This is a comment on your answer to Jason Barnett's question about Rogue. I'd read your ramble on the "X-Files" movie where you explained why you weren't too keen on Rogue as portrayed in the comics, particularly because of what you viewed as a clumsy introduction (her story being mostly crammed-in backstory rather than happening on-stage).
WB's currently doing an X-Men cartoon in which Rogue's a major character, in which they handle her introduction differently. They introduce her in the "now" of the series at the point where her "draining" ability first manifests itself, whereupon Mystique finds out and recruits her for her followers; in the "now" of the series thereafter, Rogue is thus portrayed as a "villainess" of sorts in that she's one of a group of mutants whom Mystique's recruiting in opposition to Xavier and the X-Men - but also portrayed as not feeling quite at home with them (she even reluctantly helps out the X-Men in one episode, though she doesn't feel quite ready to join them even then and heads back to Mystique immediately afterwards).
Actually, I've found it a rather good series (I've been able to quite enjoy it and follow it, even though I've next to no knowledge of the X-Men; they went for a "start continuity over from scratch" approach of the sort that you praised in both the movie and "Batman:TAS"); incidentally, Frank Paur is one of the directors.
Yeah, I've had lunch with Frank, and he feels pretty good about it too.
I haven't seen it though. No time.
This is a sort of early ramble for "City of Stone" in general; I know that you haven't started any rambles on it yet, but this was a thought that I'd had for some time on the four-parter in general that I thought I'd share with you now, since it is next in line on the Episode Ramblings list.
One thing that has surprised me for some time is that "City of Stone" is one of my favorite "Gargoyles" stories. Surprised me because, as you once said (although I honestly didn't realize that this was the case until after you pointed it out) that the episode focused more on the villains (Demona and Macbeth) than on Goliath and his clan. And when I thought over that, it surprised me. Because I've found that I generally don't like episodes in a series which focus on the antagonists and leave the protagonists off to one side. But I very much enjoyed "City of Stone".
Once I realized that, I began wondering over why "City of Stone" was an exception to the rule. And I did provide myself with two possible answers for why that was the case:
1. The focus of the Demona/Macbeth backstory was on something that genuinely interested me very much, long before "Gargoyles" came out. For one thing, it was set in the medieval period, which is my favorite part of history (and indeed, the "medieval Scotland" flashbacks were always one of my favorite parts of "Gargoyles"). But, even more significantly, the backstory in the flashbacks was all about Macbeth. "Macbeth" is one of my favorite Shakespeare plays, and I was genuinely delighted and thrilled to see Macbeth turn out to be *the* Macbeth in it, and to see his story unfold in the course of the flashbacks. And all the more so when I saw that you were basing it on the historical Macbeth (whom I was already fairly familiar with), even if with some elements from the play (such as the Weird Sisters). So the story there was very much my cup of tea.
And second, Demona was, to me at least, never just another villain in "Gargoyles". She was a very crucial figure in the series. After all, she's a survivor of the original gargoyle clan, and thus as legitimately one of the title characters as Goliath, Brooklyn, Hudson, etc. Not only that, but she's also Goliath's former mate, and thus very much part of his story. So the strong flashback element around her worked for me.
At least, that's the explanation that I've worked out for why my response was and is different to "City of Stone" than to other episodes in other series of that nature (i.e., episodes where the protagonists are given a relatively smaller role). I just thought that I'd share it with you.
Thanks.
As usual, we have similar sensibilities, Todd. I love MACBETH, the play. And once the research was done (by Monique Beatty and Tuppence Macintyre) I fell in love with the story of the Historical Macbeth as well.
And Demona was always more than just a recurring villain to us as well. Our list of regulars included ten (later eleven) characters:
Goliath
Elisa
Brooklyn
Lexington
Broadway
Hudson
Bronx
Demona
Xanatos
Owen
and later
Angela.
Obviously, Demona and Xanatos (and Owen) weren't going to appear EVERY episode like the "good guys" generally did. But we still thought of them as regulars, not recurring. They were integral parts of the series.
Toward the VERY end of the run, Fox also began to feel more like a regular than a recurring character.
Since you always ask for feedback, Greg, Here I am!!!!!
Thanks to you and many others for:
1. Your old notes from the earliest days and silly thoughts. Some of them make me laugh, and some of them make me wish you had used them. (Ala the Elisa- Goliath scene when she mimics Goliath's poses. CUTE!)
2. Gotta love those smart-ass responses!
3. The enduring mystery that you keep about the rest of your plot. I wish you, or some other heavenly creature, could find a way to get that show back on the air!
4. The priceless scenes that endure in the minds of children and obscessive adults alike that I know you had a hand in creating.
Okay, It's short, but what can I say? I just wish the Gatherings weren't so far away, especially for those of us who live in the NorthEast US! Maybe I'll actually get to meet you someday!
-AbVibiA, 13
3. I'm working on it, believe it or not.
Hello, I'm doing an assignment at school for art on Gargoyles, & I thought I'd take a look here to see if I could find some info on them.
I'm LOVE watching the show on Thursdays. I favour Bronsen the best, he's so cute.
Please send a reply to this message to: missee83@yahoo.com.au
because I don't think I'll be able to find this site again.
Thankyou.
Mel,
I don't know what to tell you or whether you'll ever see this. I'm not sure why you couldn't just copy down the site address, but I don't make personal e-mail replies to people. That'd become a full time job very quickly. And you didn't ask any questions, so I don't even know what you want to know. Or exactly who Bronsen is either. Bronx? Brooklyn?
Anyway, there's a wealth of info on a myriad of garg-related subjects in the ASK GREG ARCHIVES. And if you have any specific questions not covered there, feel free to post again.
Good luck.
i was just looking through the archives and i noticed that everyone always uses the term "the humans" just as we would say "the gargoyles" or "the new olypians". that really struck me as odd because i assume everyone submiting questions is human, as well as you, Greg. we probably say "the humans" for clarification in a universe of diverse peoples, but i wonder if we sometimes say it to distance ourselves from "the humans" in the series who besides Elisa and other friends of the clans (who we are not) usually are the ones to cause trouble for the gargs (which we would not do). well, just another pointless ramble from matt, although i hope its food for thought...
matt, you're on a roll. That's another great observation.
I just want to tell you how much I have enjoyed reading both your rambles on the episodes as well as all the development memo's. I never realized how much effort went into a production or how long in advance people start working on an idea. Your memos certainly show that a lot of team work was involved with the advanced details.
Thank you for sharing this priceless information.
See you at the gathering.
You're welcome. See you there.
i know you get this alot, but i'd like to say thank you from all the fans, not just for the series itself, but for answering all of our questions and pushing to get episodes (new and old) back on tv. i've loved gargoyles from the beginning and even if there are no new spinoffs or movies i know "gargoyles" will still live on in our imaginations due to your commitment to the series. i love reading an answer to a question and going back to watch the episode talked about and seeing or realizing something i didn't before. thanks again.
You're very welcome. (And, hey, I thrive on this stuff.)
This is a general comment not a question, sorry.
matt writes about bronx not being able to feel pride ...
if he's comparing bronx to a dog, i know for a fact some dogs have a sense of humour, and can get jelous - so why not pride ??
also bronx seems to show considerable intelligence in the series, and to understand, pretty much, what is being said.
( cue "why not pride" question again!)
OK here's one for you, greg - does he?
Don't see why not.
at the end of "hound of Ulster" Goliath says that Bronx has a right to be proud of himself. now, i like Bronx and i think he is smarter and at times more emotional than your average dog but he is still an animal and i don't quite see how he can feel pride. maybe love, and fear, and loyalty, but pride???
My dog, and certainly my cats, definitely demonstrate something at times that looks a hell of a lot like pride to me. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
(matt, this post is such a disappointment.... :)
in your analysis of "the mirror" (or somewhere) you mentioned that you wondered what the humans of New York thought when they suddenly relized they were not wearing shoes. last night, as i watched the episode i noticed that only one human was shown without shoes at the end of the episode. i don't think he was wearing shoes to begin with, here's why: the animators would probably pay closest attention to Elisa's changes back and forth cuz she was the main human character. when she became a gargoyle she no longer had shoes (or a jacket for that matter) and when she changed back she did. i think therefore that when Puck changed everyone back they would be as they were before, as Elisa was. that one guy probably was at home or something without shoes on when he was changed to a gargoyle than left his house and happened to be in the street when changed back. i realize i just rambled on about something completely pointless, but it was an observation that i had to share with everyone at "ask Greg".
Brilliant. (I'm not kidding.) I think you're right.
Random thoughts about Vows:
I think it was around this episode that I decided I really loved the series. Or perhaps it was "The Mirror". One way or another this ep solidified the feeling...
There's an interesting thing about the greek dubbing. When the series was first shown in all the episodes the word "Illuminati" was spoken translated with the (archaic) Greek "Pefotismenoi"-"Enlightened Ones".
This created a very nice subtlety when the Norman ambassador greets Xanatos. He didn't say the obvious "a fellow Illuminatus" (in fact I was quite surprised -and disappointed- when I learned that's what was spoken in the original ep). He said "an Enlightened comrade." I really, *really* loved that line. Both the viewers and Xanatos knew what he was referring to. But the bystanders would get no special meaning by this, other than that the ambassador was praising Xanatos...
Something more about the translation was that it was strangely constructed in the speeches of the 10th century humans- adjectives after the nouns, a rhythm in their speech: Almost as if they were speaking poetry. Probably meant to make a distinction between their speech and the modern-day one... Was there anything analogous in the original?
<<Was anyone expecting Fox and X to really get married? And once they were, did you think you'd see them have a kid by season's end?>>
Once they'd gotten engaged, I did expect them to get married - but the child certainly stunned me. I think my mouth was hanging open at the end of "Outfoxed".
And I certainly didn't expect how that arc would go - that it'd cause Xanatos's redemption. What I had thought immediately after Outfoxed was "Poor kid! He's going to be experimented upon.". I knew that Xanatos had feelings for Fox, but I didn't know that he'd also have feelings for his son...
That is a nice line in translation.
As for the speeches, we tried to give them a more classical tone, but we weren't doing iambic pentameter or anything.
I've not read anything here before about this theory, so I hope I don't shock anybody. But have you ever thought about the evidence in the series that - gulp - there is a bit of a subconscious attraction between Elisa and Xanatos? Were you deliberate in creating this underlying current? Again, the intricacies of the characters and the stories are why this show appeals to me so much. Not that either Elisa or Xanatos would ever admit to such a thing, let alone act upon it. In fact, if I read Elisa's characterization right, she'd probably kill me for even suggesting such a thing.
But consider that Xanatos - although looking at Elisa as an adversary - will say things like "the charming Detective Maza" and "I love a woman with delicate wrists," etc. And, really, isn't he just a little too interested in her life? I have no doubt of his love and attraction for Fox, but Elisa is very similar to Fox - only working on the side of selflessness vs. selfishness. Xanatos seems to like strong women who can hold their own. And when he claims the feud against the gargoyles is over in "Hunter's Moon," his voice is almost - gulp again - tender when he says to Elisa, "He's waiting for you."
For Elisa's part in this - well, sure it's absurd to be attracted to a man who's turned your brother into a mutate. So I'll again caution that I'm meaning this on a very, very subconscious level. But you can't convince me there isn't some very passionate love/hate heat passing between these two in "Eye of the Beholder" when Xanatos prepares to take off in pursuit of Fox-as-werefox and Goliath, and Elisa jumps up and grabs her arms around him, looks him in the eye and very emphatically says, "I trust you about as far as I can throw you, Xanatos." And then he puts his arm around her waist and they're off because he doesn't have time to argue with her. It's almost as if you don't know if she wants to strangle him or kiss him. Similarly, look at the intensity of love/hate Demona has for Goliath. I also think you could argue that another reason why Fox attacks Elisa (who, to the werefox, appears to transform into Fox) is out of a tinge of jealousy. (You did say that episode was very romantically charged.) Also, Xanatos is a strong, attractive, intelligent ... human male (!) who, like Elisa, seems to have a bit of a nocturnal nature and has a seemingly predestined interest in and connection to the gargoyles. If he weren't so self-serving and nasty and wouldn't alter the physical chemistries of her relatives ... and if she hadn't met Goliath ... , heck, she could really go for a guy like him.
So, enough sacrilege out of me. I'd love to get your take on this. And thanks.
Well, I think there's little doubt that Xanatos finds Elisa attractive. Consciously so. Subconsciously, he may admire her even more than he realizes, and for things that he wouldn't acknowledge valuing. I think he's found the right match in Fox, but that doesn't mean he's gone blind or deaf, literally or figuratively.
As for Elisa, that's more of a stretch, I believe. Even subconsciously. Look at their first meeting, before she even knew he was a bad guy. She doesn't seem even vaguely interested to me there. Now keep in mind, that we intentionally gave them moments together -- to play AGAINST the stereotype. The one you mention where he flies up with her in "Eye" is a perfect example. In any other series (I like to think) that would be an example of heroic looking guy and gal working together. But our hero is amoral at best. He's interested in another girl. And our gal likes the monster and hates him. I think her distaste for Xanatos is real, and it runs damn deep.
But to be fair, Xanatos is changing. And I think Elisa acknowledges that change, at least subconsciously. She is no longer in open conflict with him. I think that his love for Fox had an effect on her. As does his obvious love for his son, and the way he protected the gargs when the chips were down. And when Xanatos says, "he's waiting for you", it is tender. But it's directed at her and Goliath, and doesn't reflect any personal desire.
The Goliath/Demona thing is very different to me.
Finally, when Fox attacks Elisa, it's not out of jealousy. It's because in her confused state, the Were-Fox is attacking the remnants of the human Fox, trying to wipe that humanity away. There's an element of self-hatred there. But it has little to do with jealousy.
NOW... all of the above is simply my opinion. True, I'm something of an authority, but other interpretations are valid if you believe them to be valid. In any case, yours was fun.
Re: Working time paradoxes.
I must confess, I've always liked "changing the past" time travel stories. I was indoctrinated by "Back to the Future" at a young age. <shrug>
Unfortunately, I have yet to find a book with Heinlein's "All You Zombies." All the libraries around seem to focus on his monumental novels that hammer home the same points over and over. (Annoying nit I feel obligated to mention: all his characters have the same vocabulary and speech mannerisms. Drives me nuts.)
So, er, about the paradox thingy. Wish I had more to comment on it. There is a certain sense of balance and rightness to a self-fulfilling paradox. Makes for a neater and cleaner story. The first time I came across it was a short story by someone I can't remember called "Up By His Bootstraps" (or something similar). The idea blew me away.
It's almost a kind of aethestic, I think. While there is the appeal of a neat paradox, some people like the messy timeloops. Take Lawrence Miles' Faction Paradox ("Alien Bodies" and "Interference"). One of their forms of punishment is for a member to kill his or her's younger self.
Of course, Simon Bucher-Jones suggested in "Ghost Devices" that a self-cancelling paradox would loop over and over, variating slightly each time until some sequence of events occurred that allowed the universe to go on. Sort of like that mythical first time around that Vashkoda suggested.
Aesthetically pleasing as it may be, I always thought this kind of history was somewhat depressing. How do you *know* it was free will? If there never was a first time, and you've always been doing a particular action, then there's nothing to you say you could change. Which you can't.
Anyhoo, just a thought or two buried in all that.
"...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..."
Again, if you're going to look at things that way, one might argue how do you know if you have free will here in the real world.
The answer is, I suppose, that you can't be 100% sure that you do.
But I'm fairly confident that within the realm of things that my will can effect, I have free will.
Nothing's any different in the time-travel stories I've presented. You're simply looking at them from a unique angle.
I just read your thoughts on the X-men movie and the books' continuity. About Rogue, she actually first appeared in Avengers Annual 10 and apparently had several appearences in Dazzler, so she was with the Brotherhood for a little while at least. And as for the Ms. Marvel powers, they weren't that vague, super strength, invulnerability, flight. I always felt they were necessary to make a potentially interesting character viable. Half the time when she absorbed somebody their mind took her over so she was against the X-men, so she had to have something she could do to benefit the team.
I just don't agree. I remember that Avenger's Annual. (I might have missed the Dazzlers.) Again, I was never that fond of Ms. Marvel. But I thought Rogue was a conceptual mess from moment one. (Obviously, the majority of X-fans disagree, and I'm cool with that.) The X-Men movie is very flawed. But I had fun in it. ANd I definitely found their Rogue much more interesting and cohesive than the comics version.
Just my opinion, though.
greg could u give me some sits where i might find other gargoyle fans?
Uh, you might start by looking at the links page and/or the comment room and/or the chat room here at station 8.
Criky! I've just been looking at the archives and all I can say is thank you Greg! We fans are ruthless and relentless.
Pshaw. You're not so bad.
VOWS
First off, I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving!
Now, on to the episode.
The Pheonix Gate--I never dreamt of its power until Demona put it to use. I never even knew GARGOYLES would deal with time travel, but I was quite pleasantly surprised when it did.
On the subject of time travel, I really do prefer the way you guys used it. The "what's-happened-already-happened-time-is-immutable" method. You are right, it is far more satisfying for me (and in some cases, more fun as well).
Petros Xanatos is quite a guy. Usually, in animated shows with villains, they make the parents of said villain just as bad as their offspring, or turn them into comedy relief. It's refreashing that in this series, the parents don't approve of the more shady activities pursued by their children. Also, I think the way Morgan Shepherd (I know I misspelled that) reads each line is wonderful. And, like you, I think the "Mr. Big-Shot Time-Traveler" line and "American Penny" tag are wonderful moments.
In the initial airings, I did like seeing that Goliath bled from the mouth at the beginning. He wasn't quite so invulnerable after all. Unfortunately, they don't seem to show him bleeding in that opening fight anymore.
They also toned down Young Demona's over-enthusiastic greeting of Young Goliath the first time around. The second showing of the scene is exaclty as it should be, but the first time (when it's Goliath's flashback/dream) she no longer flies into his arms like before. I don't really understand why either of these alterations were made (or maybe I don't want to understand).
However, I MUCH prefer the REAL ending of VOWS (the flashback to the castle). When I first saw it, I felt "Okay, NOW this makes a lot more sense." So there is one person right here who likes the real ending.
In later viewings of this episode, I did pick up on Hudson's rather cryptic way of saying things, and liked it.
I'm also one of those people who think that Young Demona's visit to 994 may have played a part in her later machinations against the humans of Wyvern. She never knew WHICH humans were involved in the massacre, nor WHEN the massacre took place. Who knows how that may have eaten away at her?
And she could have avoided it if she had followed Goliath's advice. But she never did.
I was surprised that the Illuminati actually turned out to be real. And it made me happy.
The Archmage--well, I like the guy. And his revelation of the three talismans that would grant "the ultimate magical power" whetted my appetite for the day when we would see someone make that combination.
I wasn't surprised that Xanatos got married (I mean, he got engaged in the last episode, what's the next step?), but I was glad to see it happen. As for having a kid...best wait until we get to OUTFOXED.
Okay, this baby's getting a little thick, but that's only because you really did cram so much stuff into this episode.
Yep. Chock full. Just how I like 'em. Yep.
I was just looking over the two recently reprinted memos on all the variant names for the gargoyles. The part that really astonishes me the most about it is how many names were being suggested for the cast aside from the ones that they eventually wound up with. It seems so obvious to me now (although, of course, this is from the perspective of hindsight) that "Goliath" is the appropriate name for the "Gargoyle-Master" that I honestly can't imagine him being called anything else at all. (Ditto with the rest of the cast).
(Of course, I've come across this phenomenon in other "behind-the-scenes" cases; Tolkien, for example, originally considered naming the protagonist of "The Lord of the Rings" Bingo, but fortunately later on realized how inappropriately silly it would be and changed the character's name to Frodo).
And so it goes. I agree. It's hard to imagine any of the characters with different names now. But that, I suppose, is the fun of looking at the ones that didn't make the grade.
Hi! It's me again! Just wanted to ramble a little bit about E&G's relationship. (And a comment or two would be nice:)
Lately I've been thinking a lot about marital relationships. (You know, what makes a good one. My parents recently had their 41st anniversary, I guess that's why I'm thinking about it.) Now, I'm only 16, and I don't presume to know everything about marriage, but I think I can safely say I have a more realistic view of marriage than most of my peers.
In the series, as a HUGE fan of the E&G relationship, of course my main concern is for E&G to get "married", but really if you think about it, they already have a relationship that is.... I don't know, kind of marriage-like. In the Bible, men are commanded by God to love their wives as Christ loved the church (be willing to die for) and women are to submit to their husbands (like it are not, feminist ladies, it works best this way). With Elisa and Goliath, Goliath loves Elisa with all the tenderness of his heart, is willing to die for her, and he values her and her opinions, and is therefore always asking for her input and for her help. Also, since he loves her, he is not demanding or arbitrary, making it easy for her to submit. She, of course, loves him as much if not more than he loves her, is willing to die for him, and is usually ready to submit when he makes a final decision on something, whether or not it is what she suggested. As a proud, independent woman this cannot always be easy, but she makes the sacrifice because she loves him and because she knows that he is only doing what he thinks is best.
Well, I've just been wanting to get that down on record.
Thanks! TTFN!
Elisa Ann, I can't let it go. I should, but I can't. Cuz I've got a daughter, and I wouldn't want her to someday read this exchange and think that even by ommision, I might possibly agree with you. I don't agree with the following statement you made: "women are to submit to their husbands (like it are not, feminist ladies, it works best this way)." I don't think it works best that way. I don't see any reason why women in particular should sublimate themselves to men. Why not men to women? Or why submit at all. Why not just be true to yourself, and find someone who compliments that truth? That's how I see Elisa and Goliath. Whether I succeeded or not, that's the kind of relationship I tried to forge between them.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree with it. And I don't see Elisa as even VAGUELY submissive. He respects her. She respects him. Each of them do things at times that the other wishes they would not. Not just Goliath, but Elisa as well. She is strong, proud, independent, loving. All the things you've listed. So is he. EITHER would die for the other. (Not just him for her.) I'm gratified you like their relationship. But I think you have subtly mischaracterized it to fit views you already hold.
More on fate and time-travel... :-)
I don't know if The Mighty Thor is Christian or not but if he is, then the following example from the bible may help explain the way that *I* view the whole fate/choice thing... Jesus several times reveals knowledge of the future. He says that St.Peter's going to deny him three times before dawn, that Judas is going to betray him, that the people are going to crucify him.
At the same time each of these choices belong to the people who made them: Free will is an important part of most Christian denominations. Peter *chose* to deny him, Judas *chose* to betray him, and the people *chose* to crucify him. Sure, God knew as he's supposed to know everything. But that He knew which choices they were going to make, doesn't mean that it wasn't *their* choices.
Personally, I don't believe in Christianity, nor do I believe that time-travel (either working-paradox or non-working paradox) will ever become possible... But I generally find it strange if one can accept the former's and isn't able to conceive the latter's strange blend of free-will and foreknowledge...
Yeah. Me too. I think people get trapped with semantics.
Vows -
Melissa wrote about how she thought Elisa overreacted to Xanatos' invitation to Goliath and came off too jealous in her attempts to dissuade Goliath from attending the wedding. I'd just like to say that I was satisfied by Elisa's reaction. I mean, look at the setup: The main villain invites the main hero to his wedding. If this were any other show, it would be pure corn. Elisa was the voice of reason, the voice that reassured me that this episode was not going to degenerate into an episode of G.I. Joe or Ninja Turtles. So, thank you for giving Elisa's role in the episode its due, considering how densely-packed it was. It made the difference between sophistication and corn for me.
Thanks for the support.
One thought of my own about the "fate/free will" argument. Somebody cited Demona in "Vows" as an example of this, arguing that because her future self who visits her in 975 is evil, Demona's doomed to become evil herself regardless of what she does.
Actually, my own thoughts on this was that the seeds of Demona's future character are already present even before Demona-1995 meets her. After all, she's already working for the Archmage, and stealing for him, suggesting that she'd started down that path already.
THANK YOU! Yes.
I'm not saying Demona didn't influence Demona. But Demona had a choice. And so did Demona. She chose to do certain things despite Goliath's warnings and so did Demona. :)
Time travel yet again!
Vashkoda> Ah, I think I get better now what you are talking about... I think I had a couple similar ideas when (pre-Gargoyles) I was trying to explain to myself the "working-paradox" of the Star Trek episode Time's Arrow. It's the episode where Data's head is discovered (among other things) in an archaeological dig, which leads Enterprise back in time to discover what happened, which causes Data to lose his head, etc, etc. I had then thought that perhaps once upon a meta-time (or "cycle" of time) , the Enterprise went for a different reasons in the past, there Data lost his head, etc. That's similar to your "missing origin" scenario, I think, right?
But the thing is that the butterfly effect still tears this down. In a sense there can be *no* small adjustments in the timestream, because there's no scientific distinction between "small" or "great" - the tiniest change in the combination of my parent's genes (a literally microscopical change) creates a individual which looks more like my brother, rather than like me. I really feel that a universe which has Xanatos in poor clothing go back in 975 couldn't possibly create a Napoleon (or Xanatos himself) the same way that a universe with Xanatos going back with rich clothing would... *Any* change means *huge* change...
(The Earth without Data's head buried in it couldn't have realistically spawned the same Picard/Riker/Data/Enterprise as the Earth *with* Data's head... Therefore the former idea of a "missing origin" must be disproven...)
The thing about "Time's Arrow" that stunned me was that they actually DID a working paradox episode. Normally, Star Trek shuns that. In fact, I've gotten so used to them shunning it, that I no longer make that a criteria of enjoyment.
Vows-Loved this episode, it had Demona, Xanatos, characterization galore, intricate plot, everything that makes Gargoyles above and beyond other animated series. Favorite lines was Xanatos's "But you won't. Because you didn't. Time travel's funny that way." That is SO Xanatos! And Young Demona and Goliath's conversation gives me a lump in my throat, just because it is so tragic what ultimately happens. As to what was going on in her head when she flew down to the beach before the Massacre, I would say Panic. Full-fledged Panic. Heh, that's another beautiful scene. And the last scene in Vows when Goliath and Demona float off into the distance with those heart-strumming music chords playing is just wonderful and sad at the same time. A nail in the coffin, as you said.
Yeah... <sigh>....
Man, I wish I was doing this series again.
Continuing the recent discussion on the immutability of time and Mighty Thor's question about fate/predestination vs free will.
As an amateur writer I can relate to being the creator of a universe. When your characters are well developed, they do seem to have minds of their own. There are things they'll do and things they won't do. As "god," you can force them to do what you want, but then they're not the same person. You have to manipulate events so that choices they make are logical and in-character.
As I'm sure you've said, Greg, time is only immutable if you know about it. You can't change things that have happened, you can only work around them. And you can only fulfill things you didn't know about before.
The way I see it, our challenge as writers/creators is to arrange time/fate so that "independent" characters are "free" to make the choices we want them to make. It's often very difficult, but the result is so fulfilling when everything seems to work out naturally.
Thanks for reading my ramble, Greg. This is just my point of view. I'm interested to learn if and how yours differs.
I basically agree 100%.
This is just a little follow-up to Faieq's question about Katherine and Tom not having children. Faieq assumed a fertility issue which Greg admitted not knowing for sure of either did or not.
There are methods of birth control that date back to the ancient Egyptians that involve acorns (given the variance of fan age involvement on the boards I won't go into much detail unless asked). Anyway, assuming acorns were accessible to Katherine that kind option would have been there.
But as Greg pointed out, Katherine and Tom probably wouldn't lean toward using any methods. And he's the expert.
Just got Toon Disney last night and am so thrilled to finally be able to catch up on ALL the GARGOYLES episodes I've missed!
Just putting the information out there for consideration.
Thanks.
Hi Mr. Weisman,
This is only my second time posting here but I was wondering (you will probalby think I'm nutso or something)if you have ever found yourself saying that it would be wonderful to be a actual gargoyle like Goliath and the clan. I know I have, alot recently actually.
Thanks,
Knoxville
I'm kinda human myself, but I understand the impulse.
Greg,
Like a lot of people, I'm sure, I haven't posted much to this forum, but have followed it avidly for as long as it's been running. I first wanted to thank Gorebash, Todd, and, most of all, yourself, for taking the time to keep this Ask Greg site up and going. It is just awesome that the fans that have received so much pleasure from Gargoyles (including myself) can communicate and share ideas with the creator of the show. It's particularly refreshing to see how much thought, effort, and soul (for lack of a better word) you have commited to Gargoyles; it's obviously not simply a product that you created for your job, you really believe in it and love it, which somehow affirms our own strong feelings for the show.
I started watching Gargoyles about mid-way through its first run. I was a graduate student (I guess you were WAY off your target demographic with me! :) ) at the time, and was hooked from the first time I saw it. I believe Long Way to Morning was the first episode I watched, and I taped every episode from then on until I had them all and could re-watch (and re-watch…) them in order. I loved the show for all the reasons that others have mentioned here; the complex characters, the mix of history, legend, and "realism", the continuity, the intelligent dialogue, and the magic that the story wove from episode to episode. But there was an aspect to Gargoyles that appealed to me on a much more personal level. I guess the best way to describe it is that the main characters in the show (specifically, the Manhattan clan and Elisa) exhibited a code of honor/respect/intelligence that I really appreciated, and often find to be lacking in today's world. The interactions of the Gargoyles sort of provided a model, or a reminder of a way of life that is often lost in the cynicism of the modern world. The meaning of Home. The importance of Accountability. The responsibility of Power. Trust. Friendship. Kindness. Loyalty. Humility. And perhaps most of all, Courage.
Somewhere along the lines, the Gargoyles became role models for me, in a strange sort of way. They embodied heroic characteristics, many of which I have listed above, that I guess I continue to try to live up to. As ridiculous as it might sound, I think Gargoyles has helped make me a better person.
Anyway, in closing, it seems like the world is short of great stories, and short on role models, but there are more of both since the airing of Gargoyles. Thank you, Greg.
Wow. Thank you. You just made my day.
Hey Aris. Well, the argument about missing loop origins is moot since Greg says there are none. Now I'm more interested in -why- these loops even exist. But I guess I'll explain more what I was thinking when I brought up the "missing origins".
What I reasoned was that for a certain period of time (lets say the first few hundred cycles of time), time was new and malleable and could be "experimented" with. So if Xanatos got his hands on the Gate in the 1990's and then decided he wanted to go to the 900's, he -could-, and yes, it -would- mess with the timestream, but that obviously would have been his intent if he wanted to send himself the coin so that he could be rich. And yes, that would mean that the Xanatos he once was would never have existed because his actions would change his own history (hence the "non-working paradox"). But lets imagine that this situation happened to hundreds of individuals who tried to alter the timestream, and lets say that for the most part, they cancelled themselves out so that they never happened. But for a -few- individuals, maybe their altered history does -not- prevent their getting the Gate and going back in time as they had originally done (even in real life, some people do get their cake and eat it too). Except of course now, the Xanatos who travels back in time is not the same as the Xanatos who originally went back (this one's richer, for example). So small adjustments are made in the timestream, but nothing as drastic as when Xanatos first appeared in the 900's (now the Prince might notice that Xanatos is dressed nicer than before, but at least Xanatos's appearance itself doesn't trigger anything new). So as time as a whole repeats itself, adjustments are made and wrinkles are ironed out until finally everything -works- and makes sense. Sure, it might take hundreds of cycles, but at some point every predicted event will be accounted for and the timestream, at last, becomes "immutable".
And as for the butterfly-effect, who's to say that there originally was a Macbeth, Napoleon, or Kennedy? Maybe they're all the result of Xanatos or some other traveler going back in time? The way I see it, the present as it is now could just be the final result of all the alterations made in time. So it's not a coincidence at all that Goliath still exists when Xanatos comes back from his trip (for all we know, Goliath still exists only -because- of X's trip).
You just gave me a headache.
Vashkoda, you said: <<I had hoped that there indeed was a "missing origin" to the time loops, as the presence of such loops would have made a lot more sense to me. >>
This discussion interests me, so I hope nobody minds if I take part in it:
I've read and seen a *lot* of time-travel stories, and I have to say that the "missing origin" concept of time-loops, the idea that there can be time-travel which *does* change history, seems much more filled with plot-holes than the kind of time-travel we saw in Gargoyles.
For example consider your own scenario: That there was once a 975 which *didn't* contain Xanatos as time-traveller. Let's assume that history otherwise goes on as normal and creates a Xanatos which for some reason wants to go back to 975 and change history. Let's assume that he can.
The problem is that if he goes back to 975 he will change history *entirely*. By simply being there for a single second, he will displace certain molecules of air, which (the butterfly-effect) will displace more molecules. After ten years a couple storms will occur which wouldn't have occured, other storms which occur won't. More importantly among the millions of possible gene-combinations for every single child, surely a different one will be made at every conception. *No* individual conceived after Xanatos' arrival in the past will be the same as before his time-travel. By going to the past, Xanatos won't have just erased his own birth from history, he will have erased the births of Macbeth, Napoleon, Lincoln, Kennedy, etc...
The only way to have Xanatos go back to the past, *and* be able to return to an even remotely recognizable world, would be if all the trillions of changes that will take due to his being there are already part of his world's history - aka if there's no "first loop" aka if history is unchangeable... But having someone *both* to be able to change history *and* at the same time change it in such a limited way as to influence only a limited amount of events, is wanting to have your cake and eat it also... Atleast the "unchangeable history" is just illogical for our sequential minds - one could even go metaphysical and say that it's God who put the loops there... The "changeable history" version may be logical, but it's also impossible... :-)
"changeable history" never seemed very logical to me. Always made me just nuts.
I believe in the big picture, and I believe in sweating the small stuff. And thus the working paradox method of time-travel is the only thing that makes any logical sense to me.
And hell, I don't even have to go down to the molecular level to justify it.
If you try to kill your biological great-great-grandfather and you succeed. Then you will never be born. And if you're never born, than no one ever comes back to kill your g-g-grandfather. And if no one comes back, than your g-g-grandfather doesn't die. If he doesn't die than your are born. If you are born, than he dies.
And so on, and so on, and so on...
A non-working paradox. YUCK.
I had hoped that there indeed was a "missing origin" to the time loops, as the presence of such loops would have made a lot more sense to me. My problem is not with grasping the concept of pardoxes, but with understanding the reasoning behind them. When I thought that there had been an actual origin to the loops, the loops made sense because they were initiated by individuals who had access to the Gate and the desire to alter time. But by telling me that these loops have always existed, I begin to wonder why they exist in the first place. Were they made intentionally, meant to serve a particular purpose, or is the timestream just "flawed" (well, maybe flawed isn't the best word, but the presence of random paradoxes certainly make me question the efficiency of who/whatever created the timestream). If the loops are intentional, it begs the question of who arranged for them to happen, and why. Because of its nature, one can't help but think of a time loop as a means to rectify a mistake or improve one's situation (saving yourself from a fatal fall, making yourself rich, etc). But if you're saying that the characters themselves aren't responsible and that loops were always present in the timestream, then one has to look at it from the timesteam's point of view, and what it has to gain from them. Some characters have greatly benefited from the loops (Griff and Xanatos, for example), so does that mean that the timestream is somehow biased to favor certain individuals? (but you'd still have to wonder why the stream went to the trouble of creating a *paradox* to make Xanatos rich or save Griff's life). Or was the timeline "drafted" with errors, which were then fixed via paradoxes when the timestream was finally created? For example, although Xanatos is a New Yorker from the 20th-21st century, the timestream may have goofed and placed him briefly at a Scottish castle in the late 900's. Then, to explain his presence, the stream sent in the Phoenix Gate and placed him in a situation where he would have access to it (this use for the Gate does in fact fit with your description of it as a kind of "pressure valve" for the Timestream--here, acting to fulfill events that were fated but can't otherwise happen within the normal constraints of time and space).
So is the presence of these time-loops intentional (and if so, who is responsible and why?), or is the timestream just "flawed" (for lack of a better word)?
Why does anything exist at all? I can't define your belief system for you, but whatever system you choose, the loops fit in as nicely as head lice, mountain streams, black holes or whatever.
You know, of all the types of Time Travel stories there are, the "working paradox", as you put it, is my favorite. However, it does seem that many people, like Vashkoda, have fundamental difficulties grasping the one defining aspect of the concept.
Time is not linear. All of time exists as one unit...there is no beginning and no end. Think of it as a multi-faceted jewel, of which we can only see one facet at a time. The whole jewel is already there, but it is a limit of our perception that makes us think time is linear.
I suppose your love of the working paradox is why you like the first Terminator but not the sequel. I feel the same way. It is probably one of the more famous of the working paradox stories. Another good example is The Philadelphia Experiment, which was more purely focused on the concept.
In case you're wondering, the multi-faceted jewel explanation comes from Alan Moore's Watchmen, which did not really have a time travel element to it, but the roots of the concept were there with the Dr. Manhattan character's ability to perceive all of time within his existence.
Of course, that idea harkens back to poor old Billy Pilgrim in Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five. Of course, that's not really a time travel story either, but it does help explain the concept a bit.
Hope I haven't bored everyone ;-)
The ultimate working paradox story that I HAVE EVER READ is Robert Heinlein's "All You Zombies". Brilliant story.
Of course, I remember Watchmen. I worked at DC Comics at the time it was published. Rorshachs' thumbprints: YOURS TRULY.
Hey Greg,
Just a few small comments on your ramble on "Vows".
Although I think this was a great episode and it had amazing dialogue moments, I thought that after seeing it a few times it became boring and I was less interested in it. I was definitely more "into" the second half of the episode when it got to conversations held by the old and young Goliath and Demona. The dialogue between all of them just seemed to fit so well and flowed beautifully.
I did notice the change in size of the Gate but I just thought of it as being bigger in human hands and smaller in the gargoyle's hands because of size difference between gargoyles and humans.
I also thought that Elisa (my favorite character) was acting way out of hand. I thought it was out of character for her to act so jealous. It wasn't even that, it just looked like she had PMS. I kept yelling at the tv (to Elisa) to back off his case!
Alright...I'm done.
O.K.
Elisa had maybe two lines in the whole episode, so perhaps you were over-reacting there?
Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, but I hardly find the episode dull. It's pretty jam-packed actually.
The Gate size relationships are mostly animation mistakes, but I like my rationale better. I'm glad it didn't bother you.
You said: <<O.K. Thanks. So death was NEVER personified?
Certainly Uranos was personified in the mythology, right? And Eros, of course. >>
Umm, I'm not certain what exactly it is you mean by "personification", so let me be a bit more elaborate.
Pretty much *everything* was personified as a deity, including abstractions like "Victory"-Nike, "Peace"-Eirene, "Justice"-Dike, "Violence"-Bia, "Night"-Nyx, "Sleep"-Hypnos, etc. The name is the concept is the deity...
However most of these deities never seemed to have a solid existence in stories besides their very function - unlike gods and goddesses like Athena, Hades, Hermes, Thetis, Callisto, etc, who very clearly were "persons" with a history and personalities that was separate from their specific roles...
Uranus was ofcourse personified - he was a person who was defeated and castrated by Cronos, etc, etc. And in fact he was probably personified so much that the meaning of his name being "sky" was probably almost forgotten, and Zeus was considered the god whose province was the sky, etc.
Eros is a weird case: The story which "personified" him as the son of Aphrodite and the lover of Psyche, was written very late, 2nd century AD I think, by a Roman writer. In that one he was obviously a seperate person, "personified" with any definition one can come up with.
But before that, Eros seems to have been much more of an abstraction, one of the very first gods who was birthed by Chaos: For if there had been no Eros (no love) later gods (like Gaia and Uranus, or Cronos and Rhea, or Zeus and Hera) could not have loved each other. More of a force, less of a person.
Now Death-"Thanatos" was ofcourse personified like anything else: he's supposed to be the son of Night, and the older brother of Sleep (Hypnos). But besides that, he seems to me to be much more of an abstraction like Nike, and less of a person like Athena. He's referred to as a person occasionally (Zeus sends Hypnos and Thanatos to carry the body of Sarpedon with honour away from Troy, I think that Hercules is supposed to have wrestled with Thanatos in one case) but those two are pretty much the only occasions I remember him be a person...
I don't know if the above helped clarify or confuse...
It helped clarify where you were coming from, but I think even the brief mentions you give legitimize the way I characterized Thanatos. The God of Death. He doesn't have a lot of stories attached to him. But that's still the idea.
Live you said, "The name is the concept is the deity."
(And I knew about the two versions of Eros.)
A couple comments on your Vows ramble....
As I've said in a couple of posts about the Phoenix Gate before, I love the way you handle time travel. It just works so perfectly.
But here's what I found interesting. Demona has brought her past self nineteen years into the future. She shows her that her home has been invaded, her clan has been betrayed, her brothers and sisters are dead. And her true love has been turned to stone.
I thought it was interesting that Demona doesn't try to convince her younger self that Goliath is naive, too trusting of humans, or foolish. She doesn't even try to tell her that all this destruction will be Goliath's fault. Instead, she plays off of young Demona's love for Goliath, blaming the humans for what has happened to him. But it's not like the humans are the only ones old Demona blames in her own head right now. Goliath is clearly there. "Do not share it with....do not share it!"
So my question is, why does Demona do this? Is she certain that, knowing how she herself thought 1000 years ago, her younger self would never turn away from Goliath? Or is it that Demona's plan is to use her past self's own "foolish trust" in Goliath to serve her own ends?
Actually, she does tell younger Demona that Goliath is naive and cares more about the humans than his own clan. She advocates killing him. Have you seen the episode recently?
Well, now that I've posted once... :)
After reading your ramble on Vows, I wanted to comment a bit about it. It is an excellent episode, and one of the things I noticed is that Goliath sure gets the crud beat out of him in this one, first by Xanatos at the Golden Cup, and then by Demona after he barges in on her reunion with her younger self. Both animation sequences showed Goliath bleeding from the mouth after various blows. For some reason, that just awed me (and still does). This is a cartoon where the "hero" gets hurt!! I was always ridiulously amazed and pleased by this, maybe because it is so unusual to have that level of maturity and realism incorporated into a cartoon.
The animation sequence where Goliath and Demona are flying down to the watch the wedding is just terrific, really gives a sense of the power of movement of the gargoyles.
I never thought about Demona's overly excited greeting to Goliath that we see at the beginning and end of the episode was because she was just shook up about the encounter with the future Goliath. Very sophisticated.
I was always very amused at the concept of Goliath as Best Man for Xanatos. Not only is it ironic given their history, it's just funny to see Goliath in a role that is so "human".
I had a few questions, too:
1) The older Demona tells her younger self "Do not share it [the Gate] with... Do not share it!" Who did she mean her younger self shouldn't share it with? You may have said this before, sorry if I missed it.
2) Was the scene where Owen offers Goliath a bow tie cut during production (you mentioned it in the memo, but, unfortunately, it's not in the show)?
3) Did the younger Demona have any reservations about stealing the Gate? I'm still a bit shocked that the she stole it so willingly. While I know that this sort of foreshadows her personality to come, I'm still surprised she didn't have a bit more moral fiber at the time. Maybe she was living in fear of what the arch mage would do to her if she failed? Or perhaps she just didn't place any value in the trinkets or possessions of the worthless humans?
4) Was Demona's abuse by the Arch-mage intended to be a primary motivation for her general hatred towards humans? Early in her life she was mistreated by a cruel human that was more powerful than herself, and her self-loathing at carrying out his evil little errands could very easily have created a guilt cycle that resulted in a desire to kill ALL humans, as sort of a payback for what the Arch-mage did. All of which was compounded multifold by the events of the massacre, but still, her early suspicion/dislike of humans could have stemmed solely or at least primarily from the abuse of the Arch-mage. Ok, I'll stop trying to psychoanalyze Demona. But she's so FASCINATING....
Thanks!
1. Goliath. She's about to say, "Do not share it with Goliath." because that's exactly what she herself did. Of course, that's exactly what her younger self does too. Did too. Well, you get the idea.
2. It probably got cut for time, before animation. Or maybe it didn't even make it into the script. The show was always pushing it to fit into 22 minutes.
3. All of the above. I think she had her reservations, but they were overwhelmed by her fear, lust for power, and a general lack of care about humans and their possessions.
4. Just another example. One of many.
'VOWS' - what an episode. So many twists, so much drama, and some brilliant comedy from the Xanatos family. The thing that always occurred to me when watching this is: who on earth in Shari Goodharz? She only wrote the one episode that I recall and yet this is one of my favourites, if not my favourite outright. And yet she never did anything else. I guess looking at your outline she had a lot of dialogue to work in but even so, it was pretty damn good.
Actually, it always seemed like quite an intense episode to put before a multi-part story. I didn't watch it in order properly until I knew the whole season ('CITY OF STONE' aired at the beginning of the season here in two back-to-back weekends: accompanied with some stunning preview adverts of Demona blasting the stone humans).
Just one reply:
You said…
"But the gate stays open long enough for him to go with. Did it ever occur to her to go somewhen else other than 994? I guess part of it could be chalked up to dim memory. It was over a thousand years ago. And Demona lived through that 1000 years. Even for a very significant event in her life, it must still be very hazy."
Apart from the shock factor of the castle still burning (in this episode) and Goliath in stone, I think this would have meant most to Demona. But another possible explanation is in your outline:
"But choosing requires incredible concentration. Otherwise, the chooser's emotional or mental whim of the moment may cause the gate to drop everyone off at Burger King instead of Fort Knox."
Seeing as how Demona claims to have a clear memory of Goliath's 'inspirational' presumably this is the thought that would have dragged her to 994.
I really like your explanation of the Gate's changing size as being due to its 'time valve' function. Was this something you ever planned to develop or at least mention out loud in the series? I guess we'd get some hints from what you've told us about 'TIMEDANCER' so far.
I LIKE you're explanation for Demona's choice A LOT. THANKS!
As for the timestream steam valve theory, it would get some real play in TimeDancer for sure.
One other interesting feature about "Vows" that I forgot to mention in my ramble last night. When Goliath is talking to Hudson in 975, he indicates that he is afraid that Xanatos went back in time to 10th century Castle Wyvern to plot some sort of skullduggery against the clan then. But in fact, it turns out that Xanatos's real purpose for being there is to receive the coins from Prince Malcolm, not because of the gargoyles, and that it's merely a coincidence (insomuch as anything in the Gargoyles Universe can be considered a coincidence) that he received those coins at the old home of Goliath and his clan.
I mention this because it brings up one of the interesting features of Xanatos that makes him different from the conventional "main villain" in an animated series. Most such "main villains" focus their schemes almost exclusively on settling their feud with the protagonists, to such an extent that it often results in the rest of their objectives failing because they let themselves get sidetracked by their obsession. But Xanatos didn't. A lot of his schemes turned out to be, from his own perspective, only marginally involving the gargoyles, while really focused in a different direction ("Leader of the Pack" is a good example of this, where it turns out that Xanatos's real interest was in getting Fox out of prison rather than in defeating the gargoyles), and in fact, he often accomplishes a lot of his objectives (the ones that didn't involve capturing Goliath and Co. - or, later on, becoming immortal). Other antagonists in the series do strike me as thoroughly capable of letting themselves get sidetracked by the feud to the detriment of their other goals (Demona, the Archmage, and the Pack spring immediately to mind in such a category), but Xanatos seemed more inclined to focus his attention elsewhere than on the clan.
At the same time, of course, Goliath always seemed ready to take an angle towards Xanatos as though he really was the "stereotyped master-villain" above, automatically assuming that Xanatos's schemes were directed towards the gargoyles (as per the case above) or even initially thinking that he was behind somebody else's scheme (as when he initially believed that it was Xanatos rather than Macbeth who stole the Scrolls of Merlin). That helped make Xanatos's break with "cartoon tradition" all the more noteworthy, in having Goliath's perception of Xanatos being closer to how such a conventional villain acted than Xanatos in person actually was.
Well, X getting his coin from Malcolm at Wyvern is far from a coincidence. Demona had a plan. Xanatos had his own plan. Those plans coincided of course. But they also worked together, planned together.
But generally, I agree with you. That was what made writing Xanatos so much fun. He was smart. He wasn't petty. He wasn't evil, though he did some evil things. He was so damn AMORAL.
Demona and some of the others you mentioned were fun too, for other reasons. Demona was as complex a villain as you'd generally see.
But only Xanatos was Xanatos.
Regarding your "Vows" ramble
I think More's the pitty is kind of like Ignorance is bliss. You've just heard it so many times no one knows who origninally said it.
(my opinion of course)
Well, that's certainly the case around here.
I just thought that someone might know.
My ramble/reply to your ramble on "Vows".
I very much liked this one. We got the time travel story at last (as I mentioned in my ramble/reply for "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", I'd read that there was going to be time travel in the second season of "Gargoyles", but initially mistakenly believed that it would be in the "Lighthouse" episode because of the "Sea of Time" part of the title). I've always been fond of time travel stories, particularly ones sending the characters into the historical past, and this one I very much enjoyed, particularly since it led to more "10th century Castle Wyvern scenes" (one of my favorite parts of the series). I also noticed the care used (both here and throughout "Gargoyles") with how time travel doesn't change history but is simply part of the already extant history (which makes all the more sense to me since I've been working on a fantasy novel for some time now, begun before "Gargoyles" ever came out, which made similar use of time travel, with even a time loop or two similar to those in "Avalon Part Two" and "M.I.A." - which helped me understand those episodes better, but that's another story). Certainly that kind of time travel helps make certain that there's no cheating.
I also liked seeing the Archmage again, and hearing the mention of the Eye of Odin (without realizing the full significance of that part, though). One interesting piece in this episode is that Hudson seems to already suspect, by 975, the Archmage's true nature (given the bit where he comes to the aid of Young Demona near the end).
I was half-expecting the Hudson of 1995 to mention Goliath's showing up in 975 at the end, after Goliath returned to the clock tower; he didn't, but his behavior in the modern day does make more sense in light of his meeting the present-day Goliath back in 975.
I learned about the "King Lear" quote from a friend, and was amused to discover that in its original place in the play, it was spoken by Lear to his daughters Goneril and Regan; trust Xanatos to reverse the parent/child roles when he quoted it! :)
I was very interested to see Xanatos wearing an Illuminati pin and to have the Society's existence confirmed (doubly so with the Norman Ambassador). I can definitely remember what I thought upon seeing that bit: "I wonder what Matt would say if he could see this."
And yes, I was definitely surprised to see Xanatos getting married. (Maybe all the more so since the main antagonist of the aforementioned fantasy novel has some Xanatosian qualities - coincidental, since his basic character was worked out before "Gargoyles" ever came out - but is a very solitary figure, whom I definitely can't imagine ever developing genuine feelings of the sort that Xanatos had for Fox). Very daring, I've got to agree.
One interesting feature about Young Demona's visit to 994 (incidentally, that means that there were *three* Demonas existing simultaneously at that moment, the Demona of 975, of 994, and of 1995 - good thing that the 994-Demona didn't show up or things could really have gotten confusing:) is that she learns about the future Wyvern Massacre, which probably subtly influenced her towards eventually working with the Captain to betray the humans. It's been suspected by many fans that Young Demona might have believed that it was the humans native to the castle who carried out the massacre (note that 1995-Demona never says that it was an outside enemy who destroyed the clan - or, for that matter, that the reason why Goliath was turned to stone was because he begged the Magus to do it), so in her scheming with the Captain to avert the prophecy, she actually helped fulfill it. (A time-honored literary concept, of course, going back at least to Sophocles' "Oedipus Rex" where similarly Laius and Oedipus's very efforts to prevent Oedipus's prophecied destiny of killing his father and marrying his mother actually help bring that destiny about). A very chilling concept.
I've seen the phrase "more's the pity" used a few times in works that I know that I've read before "Gargoyles", and even used the phrase at least once in something that I wrote before "Gargoyles" ever premiered, but I've no idea myself where it comes from. Maybe it's one of those general phrases with no single originator.
At any rate, I enjoyed the rambling - and am looking forward to the comments on "City of Stone".
Todd. Your rambles are always more interesting than mine. I feel like I'm just listing stuff I like and bitching about stuff I don't. But you always bring something to the table. Thanks.
I think Demona does have a paranoid fear of the massacre and that it does influence her. That was one of the horrible revelations (hidden just under the surface) of the episode. It's pretty chilling. Just as an example, think about her hiding under the cliff in City of Stone 1. What was going through her head?
I just read your two recently-posted memos for "Eye of the Beholder" and "Vows". Thank you for posting them (and I'm looking forward to the "Vows" ramble/review).
These inspired three comments, which I thought that I'd post (though all three separately, of course).
This first comment is on the "Eye of the Beholder" memo. One thing that stood out to me is that in the memo, Xanatos mentions that legend had it that the Eye of Odin was literally that, but this doesn't pop up in the actual episode. Actually, I'm glad that it didn't, because I feel that it made the impact of Odin showing up to claim the Eye in "Eye of the Storm" more dramatic as a result. Up until that episode ("Eye of the Storm") aired, I'd assumed that the Eye was just given a fancy name borrowed from Norse mythology, so it was more of a surprise when it turned out to be the actual eye that Odin gave up to Mimir than it would if Xanatos had mentioned rumors about that in "Eye of the Beholder".
Yeah, we chose to save that out. But it does show how far out in advance I was thinking. I may not have had all the details nailed down, but I did have a general idea where we were headed on multiple fronts.
A bit of a ramble on the Hunters, particularly the Canmore trio, inspired in part by your answer to my last question about them.
One interesting element that becomes apparent when you put "City of Stone" and "Hunter's Moon" together is that the Hunters did, oddly enough, become somewhat more likable over the centuries.
The initial three Hunters depicted in "City of Stone", Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore, all struck me as among the nastier villains in "Gargoyles", with very little in the way of redeeming features. Gillecomgain might have had a bit of sympathy from us (the audience), given Demona's wanton attack upon him when he was a boy. (I believe that it was more a deliberate act of hatred than a matter of self-defense, given her "That'll teach you humans to betray us" remark, something that better fits a calculated action). But then he quickly loses that by not only vowing revenge upon her entire race rather than just Demona, punishing the innocent alongside the guilty, but also willingly becoming Duncan's hired assassin by 1020, and also willingly entering into a loveless marriage with Gruoch twelve years later. Duncan was a suspicious tyrant ready to murder anybody whom he even suspected might threaten his claim to the throne, even when that person in question was innocent of such designs (as Findlaech and Macbeth both clearly were) and Canmore clearly followed in his father's footsteps; while both didn't like gargoyles much, it does seem that a lot of their persecution of the gargs stemmed from the fact that they were Macbeth's allies.
But when we get to the modern-day Canmores of "Hunter's Moon", the "powermonger" angle has clearly gone. Apart from their war on the gargoyles, the Canmores come across as quite sympathetic, more like basically decent people trapped by a horrible family tradition. Jason clearly has enough nobility in him for Elisa to develop genuine feelings for him, and he for her. The Canmores of "Hunter's Moon" are in the wrong, but they come across more as misguided than as truly villainous. Which makes them all the more into tragic figures, particularly Jason and Jon in their different ways (Jason learns the error of his ways in time, but loses the use of his legs; Jon half-realizes that what his family has been doing is wrong and almost turns aside from the path, but in the end yields to it in his weakness and undergoes the transformation into Castaway). It's one of the elements, in my opinion, that makes "Hunter's Moon" so effective.
Thanks. I agree. Aren't family dynamics fun?
Note to Sapphire about the "Gargoyles/Buffy" crossover possibility:
While my thoughts on this one probably count less than Greg's (he's the creator of the series; I'm just one of the fans), I do think that such a crossover, while in some ways more feasible than, say, "Gargoyles/Batman" or "Gargoyles/Superman", does have a few snags to be overcome. One is legal ownership (Disney owns "Gargoyles", WB "Buffy"). Another is geography (Buffy and Co. live on the West Coast, the gargoyles on the East Coast).
(Of course, there's no danger as yet of "Gargoyles Universe" vampires being incompatible with the Buffyverse, since all that we know about "Gargoyles Universe" vampires is that they're vulnerable to silver - Princess Katharine mentions this in "Ill Met By Moonlight" - which doesn't contradict any statements about vampires in "Buffy").
But as I said, I don't view such a crossover as something all that likely for the near future, myself.
Not at all likely. But it might be fun to think about in a non-canon vein.
I don't really have a question..I just want to say that this is really cool how you take the time to answer all these questions...even the dumb ones. So thank you.
You're welcome.
Eye of the Beholder: Always loved this episode, from Fox's transformation scenes, to Xanatos's spilled milk and Plan D, E and F, to Owen's smile and the revelations of the Eye of Odin. One question: What WAS that sound of Fox's roaring at the end of the episode when she's transforming back to herself? If you turn your volume up it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and it is VERY disturbing. Great sound! Just wondering if you knew what that sound was.
Can't wait until you cover City of Stone!
No. I do know it was an effect created by our talented Sound Designer Paca Thomas.
This is a sort of unofficial comment/reply to Sapphire's question about why some gargoyles (such as Yama) might want to reveal themselves to the human world. Of course, I believe that Greg has the final say here, but I thought that I'd give my thoughts on this topic (carefully staying within the rules for submitting questions such as "don't provide ideas") because it interests me.
While the existence of gargoyle-haters such as Castaway out there does make the gargoyles' secrecy a sensible decision, at the same time, there does seem to be something to the notion of the gargoyles making themselves public. For one thing, the main reason why humans hate gargoyles so much is because they're afraid of them, and the reason why they're afraid of the gargoyles is because they know so little about them, and so it becomes easier for them to be convinced, either by the demagoguery of others such as Castaway or by their own fears, that the gargoyles are a danger to them and have to be contained or destroyed. So one could argue that as long as the gargoyles take the route of lying low and hiding, they make it easy for the hatred and fear to continue, and that the only way that they can reverse this trend is to make themselves public, tell their side of the story to the humans, let them know the truth. The gargoyles' secrecy, in a way, plays directly into the hands of people like Castaway, for it keeps the humans ignorant of what this race is really like and therefore makes things easier for the hatemongers.
I'm enough of a realist to admit that even if the gargoyles did give some sort of public press conference announcing themselves and their mission of "protect the innocent" to the world, a la Superman, it wouldn't be likely to make the hatred and intolerance go away just like that. But it could certainly help to weaken their foundations at least a little.
(Not that I can truly blame Goliath and his clan for choosing the path of secrecy up until the destruction of the clock tower; they had reasons enough from their own experience to be cautious - between their treatment by the humans in 994 and their betrayal by first Xanatos and then the Pack so soon after awakening - not to mention that the preference of their chief human confidante, Elisa, to keep them a secret must have influenced them here as well).
Yep. That sounds about right.
Goliath had a mid-range plan (or lack of plan) which was about being careful, conservative and winning allies like Elisa, Matt, Renard and Macbeth.
EYE OF THE BEHOLDER
Elisa in a Belle gown dancing with Goliath--always the first image in my mind when this ep is mentioned.
I was quite surprised (and delighted) by the display of Xanatos's feelings for Fox in this episode. I mean, the beginning proposal to Fox literally sounds like a BUSINESS proposal, and it just kills me every time I watch that scene. The whole growth of Xanatos throughout this episode--his facial expressions and attempts to save Fox--is really a highlight of the series. A show in which the "BIG BAD GUY" is not all that bad. Of course, he naturally denies having any traits that could even remotely be considered "noble" in his character, and it leads to that wonderful final exchange with Owen.
Goliath himself actually gets a couple of jabs in at Xanatos' expense. "I don't suppose you have a Plan D?" I just love that line. That's probably...the second joke he's told in the series.
Of course, I love the whole Halloween block party. It's great to see the Trio finally being able to interact with the humans without the latter running away in fear. Still, I like how in their initial shot at the block party you can see the Trio are still a bit wary.
So Keith David's the voice of the witch! I always wondered who did that voice. I mean, that's one of the funniest moments in the episode--here comes this haggard witch that speaks in a deep male voice. Just totally catches you off guard.
Goliath and Elisa, one of the great couples of our time. I might as well say this now and get it out of the way--I think Elisa looked DAMN FINE in that costume. MAN that was good. When she had her gun I wondered where she had pulled it from, and I was glad when I saw the holster/garter.
As for the Eye and the Werefox--I never dreamed that the Eye had magical properties when I saw it in THE EDGE. Heck, I never expected to see it again. This added another dimension to it. The transformations to and from Werefox are terrific, and I love the animators' work on it. Some of the best character movement in the series. Being the dense person I am, I didn't entirely get all of Fox's internal conflict in the first few viewings. It's more clear to me now, though. Frankly, I'm glad that you guys were able to take the realistic approach and have Fox be naked when she changed back to human form.
On the subject of getting away with things, I was surprised that the engagment happend, myself, let alone that it panned out the way it did. Then again, by the time OUTFOXED came around, I had gained enough respect for the series to not be too terribly surprised that Fox was expecting.
Still, how many series have the villain get married?
An episode that I always enjoy watching.
Yeah. Me too. I actually watched it AGAIN today when I was working on the timeline. It's pretty cool. We previewed that episode (we being myself, Frank Paur, Keith David and Gary Krisel) at at panel we held at the San Diego ComicCon in the summer of 1995. Was anyone there?
Another "rambling" on my part, this time on Future Tense and its relationship to the actual events in the gargoyles' lives after the Avalon World Tour. As we all know, one of the big questions in the fandom is how much the events in "Future Tense" reflect the actual future in the Gargoyles Universe, thanks both to the fulfillment of two of them (in a way) before "The Journey" and Puck's little "Was it a dream or a prophecy?" remark (although I think that that line of his was done just to tease Goliath).
Now, two "prophecies" in "Future Tense" were fulfilled. Xanatos and Fox did have a son named Alexander Fox Xanatos, and the clock tower was destroyed. But I'm not so certain that either of these are quite so significant. As Owen, Puck would obviously know what the Xanatoses were planning to name their baby, after all. As for the clock tower, the destruction of the gargoyles' home would be a natural part of any "gloom-and-doom" scenario for them (not to mention that in the "Future Tense Universe", the clock tower would more likely have been destroyed by Xanatos or Lexington masquerading as Xanatos, rather than by the Canmores - whose existence Puck might not even have been aware of at that point).
Two "prophecies" that seem to be on their way to fulfillment in the future, based on your earlier MasterPlan comments, are the Ultra-Pack and the forty-year separation of Brooklyn and Goliath (brought about by the Avalon World Tour in the "Future Tense Universe", by Brooklyn's Timedancer adventures in the actual Gargoyles Universe). The first of these, of course, can again be easily explained: the Pack getting upgraded again does strike me as something that anyone who had paid close enough attention to their past career could have expected. The 40 years timedancing is a bit more of a poser, but I imagine that if you make enough statements about the future, a few are going to turn out correct, and the only real similarity is the "40 years" element (and the number forty has long held a certain symbolic significance, anyway - the rain that caused Noah's Flood lasted for forty days, the Israelites under Moses spent forty years wandering in the wilderness, etc.).
(The irony is that Brooklyn's Timedancing adventures would have to be the consequence of Puck's whole "Future Tense" vision to begin with, since they came about because Goliath threw the Phoenix Gate away into the Time-stream, which he did because of the "Future Tense" vision; a good case of a self-fulfilling prophecy).
(I've also spotted a possible fifth "twisted fulfillment" of a "Future Tense" event in the outline for "Gargoyles 2198" that you posted, but I'll wait until after the contest is over before naming it and asking you if you'd intended it as such - you can, of course, in the interim, have the fun of guessing which part of "Gargoyles 2198" I had in mind when I wrote this paragraph :)
And, of course, the way that things were going by the end of the series (at least by the end of "The Journey"), I think that we can safely conclude that Xanatos isn't going to declare war on the gargoyles, kill Hudson at the cost of his own life, drive the surviving members of the clan into the Labyrinth, and take over New York (to be succeeded after his death by a traitorous Lexington using him for a facade).
At least, that's my own two cents' worth on the relevance of "Future Tense" to the future of the Gargoyles Universe.
Sounds pretty good. But you're forgetting one thing.
This is a question on Nokkar, but don't worry; it's about him as portrayed in "Sentinel" and isn't "Gargoyles 2198"-linked.
I've noticed that a great many "Gargoyles" fans have displayed a low opinion of Nokkar as a character because of his treatment of the gargoyles, mistaking them for spies for the Space-Spawn and refusing (until almost the last moment) to reconsider; they've considered him a stubborn fool. While I can't approve myself of Nokkar's attitude of "I've already made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts" myself, I have wondered from time to time if we haven't been doing him something of an injustice.
The big element in this pondering is this question that I find it's occasionally useful to ask ourselves regarding those enemies of the gargoyles who fought against them because they believed the gargs to be evil monsters; would we have felt the same way about these people if the gargoyles really were a race of evil demons? In some cases, my answer would have been "Yes". I would have felt the same way about the Pack in "The Thrill of the Hunt", for example, or Castaway in "The Journey", because their reasons for going after the gargoyles were ignoble ones (the Pack motivated by a desire for simple excitement, Castaway by hatred and a desire for revenge) rather than for the purpose of protecting the community, and because they were willing to endanger innocent bystanders in a very ruthless fashion to achieve their goals.
But with Nokkar, my response is different. For one thing, he really does come across in "Sentinel" as genuinely concerned for the well-being of the inhabitants of the planet that he's been assigned to protect. He clearly shows concern for Elisa - he immediately asks her, after bringing Goliath down, if she's all right, and trusts her enough, in fact, to give her the personal guided tour of his spaceship. When Elisa finally, out of instinct, sides with the gargoyles and comes to their rescue, Nokkar still does whatever he can to treat her gently, and asks her (and actually listens) why she insists on risking her own life to protect them. (He also mentions having had a good relationship with the original inhabitants of Easter Island who built the moai statues of him, and seems willing enough to make friends with the two archaeologists and Dr. Arnada at the end of the story and share his mission with them). Indication enough that he was no simple mercenary but someone with a genuine protector instinct.
As for his treatment of the gargoyles - again, it wouldn't have hurt for him to have kept an open mind. But to return to my original point, would I have felt the same way about the guy if Goliath, Angela, and Bronx really had been an advance scouting party for the Space-Spawn? I will admit that I wouldn't. Even when Nokkar was about to execute them, he made it clear that a) he was doing this because the laws of his people forbade Sentinels to take prisoners and b) he was going to give them as merciful and painless a death as possible. (And, also to be perfectly fair to the guy, what proof did the gargoyles have to offer him that they weren't enemy aliens? To the best of my knowledge, none).
So this consideration does lead me to wonder whether we may not have done Nokkar a bit of an injustice in how we viewed his actions in "Sentinel". At any rate, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the matter.
Well, I like the guy. I don't know that I'd jump through the same hoops to rationalize his actions, but I like him. For us, he was like those stories of WWII soldiers on remote Pacific Islands still fighting a war that they didn't know was over. (Not that the Space-Spawn War is over.) They go a bit batty over the long, long haul. And Nokkar's had a longer haul than most. The truth is he was anxious to be doing something productive. Anything. He wanted the Gargoyles to be S-S spies. That's bad. But when he realized his error, he didn't compound it. That shows he's redeemable. Easier to redeem than most, I think.
And I agree, he did demonstrate a real concern for humans.
Hmm, in answer to your question, I honestly can't remembre
where I saw the word 'convenient' posted. I am pretty sure you had said it though. Someone had asked a question and you had said something along the lines of 'adoption probably being more convenient'. And, of course, that is probably true. I am certain that many of the fans, myself included - would be happy to just see Goliath and Elisa tie the not basically and at last rise a family. That in and of itself would be a nice closure to the romance to, even though it would forever continue.
Also, it strikes me as strange that G & E would break up so soon after 'Hunters Moon' and then have a double date like that following Halloween. But, someone in the comment room mentioned that 'Hunters Moon' had fallen on the 26th of October in 1996 - correct? So wouldn't the Halloween date take place in '97? And if so, why so long?
I know the general outline of what they'll go through and decide, having discussed their relationship and then find it a little too difficult. (But would that just be Elisa who feels that way, or would it be Goliath too?)
Somehow, I get the impression that they wouldn't break up for that long at all. But have we misunderstood the time line somehow? And wouldn't things work out to where they might have a commitment ceremony of sorts sooner than expected? It almost seems strange for them to want to drag it out, and yet at the same time, I can see why they would. Although they would be back together, they might still be afraid of total commitment. . .for obvious reasons. No kids.
But, how long exactly would thier triangle last? I don't think that Goliath would enjoy a date with Delilah, and she might in turn find it a bit odd to go out with the one who is Thailog's 'father' basically.
Anyway, you gave some good points and I do agree. I just have my own views too. Which we all do. And that is important so long as we don't obscure it for someone else or twist it around. And it's always important to be loved for who we are and to not judge others when it isn't our place. If I have come off judgemental - which I doubt I have - then I do apologize. (I apologize WAY too much! ^_^)
Anyway, good points.
Thanks. :)
Thank you. I think I've responded to most of this recently, so I won't ramble on this time.
...I don't think Goliath is the kind of guy who ranks his favorites.
I'm not either really.
----------->William Shakespeare
O.K.
greg i have my one clan and we will bring them back will u help us
What kinda help we talkin' about?
Just read your "Eye of the Beholder" piece. Oddly enough, I watched that same episode just a few days ago (I like to watch my tape of it every Halloween, one of three "Gargoyles" episodes that I watch on tape for annual holidays. The other two are "Sanctuary" for Valentine's Day and "The Hound of Ulster" for St. Patrick's Day).
This episode I very much enjoyed. I will confess that, even though I'm quite fond of Norse mythology, I never suspected, even after the revelation that the Eye of Odin was a magical artifact, that it was literally that (the eye that Odin gave up for a drink from Mimir's well) - in fact, I never even thought along those lines until "Eye of the Storm" came out. But the revelation that it was magical got my attention.
I also noticed the development for Xanatos here, how he proposes to Fox in the manner of a business proposition, particularly his reasons, but then in the course of the episode realizes that he is in love with her. (I particularly caught the very worried expression on his face after his "Spilt milk").
I caught the "Beauty and the Beast" reference with Goliath and Elisa, but I will confess here that I wasn't seriously imagining anything going on between them at the time. (Kind of embarrassing in hindsight, I must admit).
I caught the significance of the trio's costumes (including Lexington as a pilot being a reference back to "Her Brother's Keeper") - and I've got to agree with you that Broadway's belch was probably the crudest sound effect that "Gargoyles" ever had :)
And of course, the exchange at the end between Goliath and Xanatos that you quoted ("So now you know my weakness." "Only you would regard love as a weakness.") is one of my favorite moments in the series. (And I also very much like the last shot being of Owen smiling as he watches).
Me too, pal, me too.
Hi Greg,
Now here comes a verry wicked question: What did you think, is the best point to end the show? I know, and I hope, that you get the show back someday, but someday it has to end...
CU, John
Why?
THE SILVER FALCON
I finally have some time to comment on this.
Originally I wasn't all that impressed with this ep--maybe because it only had one gargoyle (Broadway) in it, but then again THE MIRROR is a tough act to follow.
Over time, however, I've come to appreciate it a lot more.
The little touches--Broadway's reading, Elisa keeping her gun locked up, Matt looking for the Illuminati--were things I picked up on and appreciated right away, but the dynamic between Elisa and Broadway started to grow on me over the repeated viewings.
I didn't know that Benton and DD were one and the same when I first saw the episode until the final revelation. But I LOVED it! I thought it was just a wonderful pay-off, and so was the marbles in the bag.
I didn't think Hacker would be that important a character in later episodes (it was still early in the 2nd season, yet), but I liked that the characters had backgrounds and past relationships that had repercussions on the present.
Yeah, it's a pity that the "guy in the trench-coat" was immediately recognizable as Broadway. That extra suspense might have been real sweet.
Since you're putting up some fav quotes here's one of mine. Broadway's hit Dracon with the fire escape (OUCH!) and is quoting his favorite movie, and all Dracon can say is "Not you guys again!" I don't know why--maybe it's Richard Greico's (sp?) voice acting--but that line just makes me laugh every time.
All in all, an enjoyable ep, and a good beginning for Cary Bates, a name I'd come to find familiar in the closing credits of GARGOYLES.
Yeah. I think SILVER FALCON is one that kinda grows on you. There are a few like that. They seem sleepy and/or insignificant, but there finer qualities and overall importance emerge with time.
Note to Aris: Good point, and I certainly never thought that the similarities between "Gargoyles" and "X-Men" were based on anything other than the same theme. But I was raising the question as to whether anybody at Disney had that fear, in light of the documented fear that some of them had that "Gargoyles" might be perceived as a "Batman"-rip-off. (Which fear was strong enough to lead to Greg producing that short essay on the differences between "Gargoyles" and "Batman:TAS").
That's what I thought you meant.
Ah, a ramble on "The Silver Falcon" at last - and it was worth the wait, too.
Looking back on the episode, the main thing that I can remember from the first time that I watched it was a bit of initial disappointment when it turned out that what Matt (and, after him, Elisa and Broadway) had stumbled upon wasn't actually an Illuminati scheme but Dracon going after some stolen jewels; I was very much intrigued with the Illuminati, after all. But I think that the story worked out nicely enough to make up for that, in that it was very atmospheric, with some nice twists as well, and Elisa and Broadway getting to both show some real detective-instincts in them.
And I certainly was surprised when it turned out that Benton and Dominic Dracon were the same person; I hadn't been expecting that. (Although, looking back on that episode, the revelation at the end puts an interesting twist on Benton's complimentary description of DD in the photo :)
One of the big impressions that this episode made on me, by the way, was the dizzying heights at the skyscraper in the climax; I certainly didn't envy Elisa's situation. (I've always had a poor head for heights, myself).
Me too. And everyone is just dancing around up there. Even Dominic. Man.
I really admire the patience and dedication of longtime fans and admirers (including yourself) of "Gargoyles." I only discovered the show for myself (with the help of my two young daughters) a bit more than a year ago, and I KEEP hoping that "some day" will come already and new episodes can be made.
Folks can say what they want about Toon Disney, but that's how my daughters found it and shared it with me, so the channel is at least providing the opportunity for a few new viewers to discover the show.
It's clear from watching the series, and then finding this Web site and learning more about the behind-the-scenes processes involved in its making, that there were a lot of thoughtful, creative, talented people behind it. Your ideas about characterization and story continuity have prompted me to post some thoughts and an inquiry here. (It's at the heart of one of the main reasons why I really lament that there aren't any more episodes being made ... yet.)
From a writing point of view, I think "Hunter's Moon, Part III" -- which I realize was a season finale -- would have served as a much better "final" finale for your involvement than "The Journey," which just left everything dangling for me like an unfinished book. Maybe I should say "like an unfinished chapter" because I don't want the book to end. At least in "Hunter's Moon," it ended with a bit of a payoff: an open declaration of mutual love between two main characters ("You know how I feel about you, right?" "How we both feel, yes." and even a kiss). It helped bring together a few loose strands that had been threading from almost the very beginning of the series without completely shutting it off from future development (far from it, actually).
In "The Journey," there is an aborted, sort-of date with very little discussion between Goliath and Elisa about what is really happening between the two of them or that very significant exchange between them from the previous episode. Also, from the information shared in this site, it seems you knew this was your farewell episode in many respects. So I would be interested to learn what you intended to have at work between Goliath and Elisa in this episode because I'm not sure that I "got it" all. I think an argument could be made that the episode, coming immediately in sequence after "Hunter's Moon," implies that a relationship between the two is A-OK with them without any internal conflicts.
Did you really want to make things seem less defined between them and let some time pass before they actually had The Talk about their relationship, specifically to help sustain fans' interest at a time when you may not have known what the future held for the series and their story?
Sorry to ramble on, but I don't want to appear as though I'm sorry you stayed on for one episode too many (again, far from it!) I'd like to learn your thoughts about the episode from a story/character development perspective.
Thank you.
Well. I was trying to play fair, I think. I was leaving, but the series had 12 more episodes that I was at least supposed to advise on. Most of my positive (try this) advice was ignored, though some of my negative (hey, don't do that) advice was taken. I wanted to give ME some closure, but I wasn't trying to give the series closure.
Specifically, what I was saying was that the journey would continue. That the adventure would continue. That even Japan had gargoyles, and Vinnie (or Greg Weisman) would never be totally out of the picture. That no matter what hassles Goliath and Elisa had ahead of them, that they would still have each other as companions on the journey forward.
This was not to imply that Elisa was all copecetic about loving the gargoyle. But that she knew that she did. That she would never abandon him. And vice versa.
Does that help?
Feel free to ask more specific questions, if I haven't covered it for you.
And by the way, cuts or no cuts, "Deadly Force" or no "Deadly Force", I'm still glad that Toon Disney's airing the show.
Aris-
As long as we're chatting, well, yes. It is annoying and boring. That's unavoidable, but also why I only did a handful. Unsportsmanlike? Absolutely. Which is why I'm more than a little sorry for doing it. Though it honestly didn't occur to me before that the robot numbers would have some logic behind them, I figured they were random (guess I wasn't thinking about how Greg operates). Maybe I won't be able to work up the guts to do more acronyms later, we'll see. This time I was swept up in the excitement of knowing two letters for sure. If you want, we can make a note that the point I got for the "994" is tainted. And I'm not sure the website completely atones for my sins, either. But really, is it so much worse than when the clans contest was going on?
I suppose Greg will be reading these. His challenge will be making the next contest one he won't end up regretting...
You guys worry too much.
Btw, (and so that I'm not negative all the time), I want to thank you, Ray, for the page with the text and the blanks filled in. That *does* atone for the brute-force tactics :-)
:)
Sorry about this, but it must be done. :-)
Ray, don't you think that the brute-force tactics you are constantly employing are a bit annoying *and* extremely boring, not to mention unsportmanslike?
Once again, sorry...
-
By the way (also on that same document) I agree with you that a big problem with the notion of "Goliath as a human who was transformed into a gargoyle" is that the audience would be expecting and wanting him to find a cure, which of course would be out of the question in a television series since it would automatically end it. I found that particularly interesting since I've noticed that there are many cases of television series which have an explicit or implicit specific objective for the protagonist(s) which, if achieved, would automatically force the series to conclude. Thus, unless, the concept is handled extremely carefully, the series develops a note of frustration about it as the protagonist always has to fail to achieve his or her objective, to keep the series going.
"Gargoyles", fortunately, managed to avoid that problem by making the protagonists' goal something that was a journey rather than a destination. The gargoyles' goal is to survive in this strange new world, understand it, and protect it, all three ongoing quests rather than ones with a specific end of "We've done it; now the story's over". Which, I certainly believe, was a good thing for "Gargoyles".
(Of course, some of the spin-offs might be described, from what you've said about them, as falling into the "concrete objective" category, but even there, there were solutions to that here and there. For example, in "Pendragon", Arthur and Griff's goal is to find Merlin, but from the evidence that you've given, the story would definitely not be over after they do find him and get him out of the Crystal Cave. "Timedancer", of course, would be a different story, since the series is definitely over once Brooklyn gets back to Castle Wyvern, but since that won't be for forty years after his adventures begin, there's room enough for a lot of stories there).
Yep. I like things that evolve.
Hey Greg!!
Um, I have a question about doing my own kind of gargoyles story. But I want to make sure that the characters I'm thinking up don't mix too much with Disney and what you came up with. Is there a way I can email you, or you email me, so I can maybe get some interesting ideas or even some council? This is something I would like to do as maybe a comic book series or something. Or maybe just a book series with a lot of illustrations. Kind of like a teen book, or even an adult book or something. But without the unnecessary adult material which I consider sacred and unneeded in todays hideously over-rated Hollywood. It's so hard to see movies these days because there aren't any good ones to see.
Anyway, my email is Marie Destine@aol.com. I'm not sure at this point if there is anythin at all that I will be able to do. This is just an idea at pressent that I want to explore and hopefully make a reality. So, if there's anything more you need to know about the ideas I have so far, or wouldn't mind giving me some tips I would appreciate it. I just figured I should ask you what is the best course to take because you are in the business and I thought that you might be the best person to ask.
So anyway, any help you could give would be great.
Thanks in advance!! ^_^
I don't think I can be of much help, and I'm not too clear on what you have in mind anyway.
Gargoyles (generic) unrelated to Disney's property are certainly fair game. But, frankly, I'm not about to help you with what in essence would be competition TO my work, inspired at least indirectly BY that work.
Gargoyles based in any way on the series would get you in major trouble with Disney, assuming you didn't have their permission. And again, I'd love to be writing books based on the series. So we'd be competing.
And in any case, I make it a policy not to look at other people's ideas, to protect myself legally.
Sorry.
Hey there Greg.
I was thinking of posting a guess for the contest but then I thought: Why pour gasoline on a burning house? You know, this new contest reminds me of a Simpson's episode where Apu hides a snake in the Quick-E-Mart on Whacking Day as a marketing ploy. The first one to whack the serpent gets a free Squishy. Unfortunately the participants search for the snake by knocking over counters, flinging food, and smashing products. Apu sighs after giving up on telling them to control themselves and says, 'I really should have put more thought into this.'
I still need sleep…
YOU need sleep?!
Another "more-musing-than-question" comment here. In "M.I.A.", when Leo and Una are urging Griff not to take part in the Battle of Britain, saying that "the Nazis are a human problem", Goliath replies that "in my experience, human problems become gargoyle problems."
What I found interesting about this remark is that, in fact, the origins of the "gargoyle problems" in the series do bear out the truth of Goliath's remark.
1. The Wyvern Massacre of 994. Arose in part from an attack on the castle by Hakon and his Vikings, who were initially doing so for the plunder (and Hakon at first didn't even believe that there were actual gargoyles living there).
2. The flight of the eggs to Avalon in 995. Arose from Constantine murdering Kenneth II and wanting to marry Katharine to strengthen his claim to the Scottish throne that he'd just usurped.
3. The troubles that Demona and her clan underwent at the hands of the Hunters in the 11th century. Stemmed partly from Gillecomgain's personal vendetta from Demona (which was essentially a gargoyle problem), but also from Duncan and Canmore's feud with Clan Moray over the succession to the Scottish throne (definitely a human problem).
4. Goliath's modern-day adventures in "Awakening". Ultimately stemmed from a human problem (Xanatos wanting to conduct a raid on Cyberbiotics to steal its research).
5. The Quarryman threat from "The Journey" onwards. While based in part on the public's fear of the gargoyles, as far as Castaway is concerned, it's ultimately really based on a human problem (Castaway's unadmitted guilt over shooting and maiming his brother, which he blames the gargoyles for).
(Not to mention that the evidence in "Once Upon A Time There Were Three Brothers" shows how the feud between two rival Scottish houses over the throne in the years leading up to 971 wound up drawing in the Wyvern clan).
So I'd have to agree with Goliath on that one; a very accurate statement on how the gargoyle race isn't an island.
Yep. And I'm glad Goliath learned that lesson too.
<glances at Adam and says nothing> :-)
Okay, moving on to other things. I had said:
--"Let me just paraphrase a sentence of Terry Pratchett: "All things are true, for a given value of 'truth'."
and you said:
--"Who's Terry Pratchett?"
and I say:
*Shame* on you! :-)
Anyway, Terry Pratchett is a (British) writer of humorous fantasy, probably the best of the lot. His most famous work is the "Discworld" series of books... It ranges from the silly/trivial ('Colour of Magic','Eric') all the way to the deep and serious ('Small Gods', perhaps 'Hogfather') sometimes even venturing into the dark and creepy ('Soul Music', 'Carpe Jugulum')
The early books ('Colour of Magic' 'Light Fantastic') weren't *that* great so I usually recommend 'Small Gods' to beginners, which is also the book I started with - it isn't just a good book but it's also a story with none of the recurring characters of the series so one won't get confused at all.
But perhaps (given the Gargoyles series) a better recommendation would be "Wyrd Sisters" (a humorous take on 'Hamlet'/'Macbeth' and Shakespeare in general). Also its 'sequel', "Lords and Ladies", parodying in part Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream".... Great book...
My all-time favourite Discworld book is perhaps "Hogfather". Featuring Death, Death's grandaughter Susan, Auditors of Reality, Santa Claus, a brilliant assassin with the mind of a child, a stupid thug with the mind of a child, the oh god of hangovers, tooth fairies, the first bogeyman *ever*, and also the monster under your bed. A book about the magic (aka 'real terror') of childhood. :-)
That books is also the reason that I know that Santa Claus can be handled in a very serious manner - and "Hogfather"'s utilisation of him is as serious as one can get... I actually have more respect for the big guy now.. :-)
Okay that was a ramble - sorry about that. To finish, I'll just say i've heard than in America Pratchett may be better known because of his co-writing the book "Good Omens" with Neil Gaiman...
Sounds interesting, but here's the thing...
At this point in my life, I don't really want to read other people's creative (i.e. fictional) interpretations of legend and myth. What I've read up to this point, I've read. But now, I'd prefer not to clutter my own creative process with other peoples interpretations. I'd rather go to so-called original sources and come up with my own stuff.
dear god.... its been what? a week if that? I have no sense of time anymore. erhmm... go Greg! good god, I mean good job with the contest! o.O; hoping to get it done in tie for G2001. <falls over laughing> 9.9; so erhm. I'm going to ask a question in next post. This one its just. Good job and dear god... good luck answering these things <if the contest isn't *over* by the time my post hits>.
Uh... thanks... I think...
Hi Greg.
I like the shape of the future you've built, or as far as I can see it. Obviously you won't answer anything on it at the moment, but I'm particularly interested to find out what the other clans are up to. And Coyote-X sounds great. I just hope the Space Spawn aren't the sort to gurgle in their throats or shout, "prepare to die, earthlings!" or something.
As for the large amount of guesses already filled - I still think the last ones will take a long time. Especially since some of them seem to be names that I don't know if we can guess. 233-253 and 306-339 look particularly tough.
Hopefully, will make the Space-Spawn as interesting as Demona and Xanatos were in their way and in their time.
One thing that I was thinking about the events in "The Gathering". Many Gargoyles fans, including myself, didn't approve of Oberon and Titania's attempt to kidnap Alexander, even if it was for the sake of allowing him to achieve his magical potential. But one thing that I recently considered is that their abduction attempt may have been a blessing for the gargoyles, if a disguised one at first.
After all, one of the major results of the whole kidnapping attempt was that Xanatos ended his feud with the gargoyles, and gave them shelter at Castle Wyvern after the Canmores blew up the clock tower and exposed the clan's existence to the world. If he'd still been at odds with them, I doubt that he'd have done that (or at least, not under as generous terms for the clan); at best, in the aftermath of "Hunter's Moon", the gargoyles would have been reduced to his pawns (just as he'd wanted them to be when he first awakened them), and at worst, they'd be homeless and all but defenceless, most likely to wind up dead or in captivity. I doubt that Titania was anticipating the Hunters' actions a few episodes later when she tried to kidnap Alex, but I can't help but suspect that it saved the gargoyles' life at St. Damien's Cathedral.
Sometimes things just seem to work.
One thought that I had about your remark that Goliath isn't likely to tell anybody about the details of that "Future Tense" nightmare that Puck gave him; I think that it's a good thing, myself. I'm not sure that it would be that advisable to let the rest of the clan know about Lexington being a traitor in "Future Tense", and I'm definitely certain that it would be a bad idea to let Brooklyn know about the "mated to Demona" business (especially where Owen is concerned :)
Yeah. Not much to gain by it, huh?
Hey Greg
Comment about Terry Pratchet. :)
Just find any one of those Discworld books and read the first couple pages. If your not hooked into it by the first or second page... well like thats possible. hee hee
ja!
see my comments to Aris.
I realize I'm cutting myself off from some good stuff, but I don't have a shortage of books to read EVER.
I just read William Faulkner's New Orleans Sketches. It was a great early example of his work.
Another silly Question from Silly Maria: ^_^
Why is 'adopting' for Goliath and Elisa more convenient?
I obviously have a very different thinking pattern. I guess I feel that if someone really loved someone else they would be willing to make some sort of change. So that's why I find it hard to believe that Elisa or Goliath can't make a magical change or something. In my mind, just because you change your form doesn't necessarily mean you are changing who you are. It can change a PART of who you are, but it doesn't change everything about you. You are who you are inside. And that includes your SOUL. Your soul is who you are. That's why we are able to differentiate between right and wrong because GOD gave us that gift. We just abuse it sometimes or ignore it, because we are down here on earth to learn. And from circumstance and learning different behaviors, we sometimes become what we were not in the beginning.
So, why would it be so inconvienient? (Bad spelling. . . :P) I mean, I am probably WAY off base. But that's just the way I feel . . . if that's all right.
I guess the problem for us Goliath and Elisa fans is we REALLY want Goliath and Elisa to have a child. Yet, contradictorally, we understand that ethnically, it would be impossible. And yet we hope for a miracle. I guess in my frame of mind, seeing them raise a family of their own would be like some kind of resolution. Strange, isn't it?
Anyway, enough of my rediculous ramblings. I probably don't make any sense - though I try to. It's just hard sometimes to put my thoughts into words. And they don't always come out the way I want them too. So for that I apologize. A hard life has let my communication skills go to par. ^_^!
Well, if that wasn't too - ridiculous - I'll take off now. TTFn. Ta Ta For Now!! :)
There's nothing wrong with the way you feel.
But it's not the way I feel. I am a secular, at times Pagan, Jew. And yet, I would not convert to another religion for anyone. Not for "love", certainly. If my "love" couldn't accept me for who I am, why would I want her? Most of my life, I dated non-Jews. It's theoretically possible that I might have married one. But I still would not have converted. As it turned out, I did marry a Jew who "practices" the religion more than I do. I haven't gotten "more Jewish" because of her. I've fundamentally stayed the same. And yet, being Jewish is part of who I am. Part of what made me who I am. Same with being short. Same with being nocturnal. Same with being a guy. A heterosexual. A storyteller. I can't change any of these things (or a bunch of other things) without fundamentally changing my identity. Who I am. Who I want to be. I'm not talking about changing breakfast cereals. I'm talking about fundamental factors to my identity in THIS LIFE. Maybe I was someone entirely different in another life, and maybe my "SOUL" is an unchanging light that shines through the prism of each new life. But the prism matters to me. And I think it matters to Goliath and Elisa too. And by the way, I don't see why ADOPTION is any less legitimate a way to share their love with a child than spitting a kid from one's combined loins.
But did I use the word "convenient"? If I did, what was the context? Because the decision was not based on convenience.
Hi Folks!
Just a little comment for those who might wonder about the date of my last posting: It might seem wrong, but firstly at my watch it´s really already about an hour after mightnight (there might be some hours time difference between the locations) and so my posting made a little time-travel and landed yesterday ;) - but secondly I guess it will already be also for Greg at least the 28. September when he reads or answers it. (And birthday greeting cards also often come a little time too early. It´s normal.)
Greetings ;))
- Skylar
Thanks.
Hi Greg! I am a long time reader and a first time poster! :)
I know you probally don't remember me, but I was in the late night G98 chat.
Bonnieway...
No real questions this time, so I hope you don't mind if I jump between two topics.
Gargoyles: 2198
You asked for it! 200K+ of responses in less than 24 hours!
A few times you mentioned that the powers to be were afraid (or maybe you were) that Gargoyles would be too much like Batman: TAS
But I have seen an episode that had WAY too many parallels to Gargoyles (It was made well after even 'The GOliath Cronicles' aired)
Basicailly, Jeff Bennet played a crazy character. It has been a while since I saw that episode, but two parts stick out in my mind:
In one part, a angel statue drops on Bennet's character, it's head pop's off and he sticks his head up where the statue's head would have been.
AND in a second part, a castle parade float manages to fly through the air and land on top of a pile of garbage. I even think there was fog below the castle...
Anyway, the episode was VERY funny!
OH, and I think that the Star Trek: Voyager writers threw in something about her Gargoyles character. She said something (to a holodeck character) to the feel of 'Do you think i am the queen of the faries?'
Well, have fun, take care, and see you in LA!
See you there. Be sure to re-introduce yourself.
sorry about the fact that im about to post several times, but im dividing up my rants, as per your request ^_^
re: gay/lesbian gargs
it depends on what culture. in ancient greece, being gay was perfectly normal. you only got ridiculed for being the "feminie" side of the gay relationship. the "masculine" side was just as accepted as heterosexuality.
Yeah, I basically knew that.
Hey just a question that i was thinking about
Why?
With all the talk of starwars (don't worry this question ain't about SW) it made me think, well we all love the original SW-tri. just like we love the 66eps of Gargoyles for us fans it's like a part of culture, well for me it is, and I have read the SW books 80+ and, well SW isn't the same I don't like the idea that Luke, Han, and Leia will grow old and die, latter in the books Chewie dies!!! For some reason I don't want the same thing to happen to Goliath and the trio and Elisa, don't get me wrong but in order to do all this continuing of the story our original cast is gonna grow old and die, personaly I'm glad that the show was stoped, not cuz it was bad, but because it was one of my favorite shows and had great characters and everything, and I don't want to SEE it die.
This probably sounds like sacrliage but I just thought I'd speak my mind. Thanks for your time.
Not sacrilege at all.
But if you trust me, I think you'll find that it can be wonderful to see characters grow, change, even age, and (in a horrible way) maybe even die, if the deaths seem "right". Plus new characters are always going to be introduced. New characters born. Etc. Kinda like life.
One of the things I'm sure you liked about the first 66 episodes was the way the characters evolved over time and stories. If you liked that, I'm betting you'd like what follows.
One thing that puzzled me in the "Guidelines for Villains" document that you posted just now. When it gave a list of the kind of "silly Batman villains" to avoid, it included Mr. Freeze on the list, alongside the Penguin and the Riddler. Now, the latter two, I can see as "silly", from what I know of them - but Mr. Freeze as portrayed in "Batman:TAS" (which is, admittedly, the only interpretation of the character that I'm familiar with) didn't strike me as silly at all. He seemed more like an effectively tragic figure, a man trapped forever in eternal cold, shut out from warmth and aware of his plight, and wanting vengeance upon the hypocritical businessman who had put him in this condition - with the additional element of his grief over his forever being parted from his wife Nora. I'm at a loss as to how such a figure can be considered "silly" - and can only assume that you must have had a different interpretation of Mr. Freeze in some other "Batman" medium. (Since, as I said, I don't know how he was portrayed outside of "Batman:TAS", it's quite possible).
I go way back with Batman. And Mr. Freeze, was , by the way a creation -- i'm pretty sure -- of the Adam West Batman series. The cold was a gimmick. There wasn't any tragic element there. I think that Tim Burton actually did a fairly good job, in an otherwise lousy movie, of making the Penguin resonate as a villain for Batman. And I think that Alan Burnett and crew did a damn good job at creating Pathos (if not resonnance) for Freeze in B:TAS. But I'm guessing that at the time I had that conversation with Fred, I hadn't seen that episode yet. And still, I'm bigger on resonnance with the hero, than the villain's own tragedy anyway. Both are important, but I like to start with the resonnance. (Am I spelling resonnance right? Man, am I tired.)
Hello, Greg.
Here's my question. Are there any Gargoyles CDs or soundtracks available? It seems that soundtracks for videogames and animated series are just too impossible to find in the U.S. Over in Japan, it's as easy as pie to find CDs for such genres.
Anyway, I love your work and it's a shame the series got cancelled. I was so jaded to find that The Goliath Chronicles croaked and I almost cried, I really did. Gargoyles was the one of the VERY last cartoon series I actually LOVED before I got sucked into the world of anime (mostly Dragon Ball Z). Thanx for all the memories your series gave me to cherish and good luck on the next series- I'm looking forward to it :)
You're welcome. And no, no CD's or soundtracks that I know of.
Another note on the "Brainstorming Villains" document: I do find it rather intriguing that a rejected name for Goliath would be "Griffin", in view of the later addition of Griff into the series. So people on the project already knew of the connection between gargoyles and griffons, then?
I don't know if we had it that thought out, but certainly, I was aware that many gargoyles in Britain were "griffonic" in style. We were brainstorming back then. Trying things out for size. Very little was actually sticking, and you can see that we actually went back to the comedy development and borrowed heavily from that, before reaching our final product.
I read your document on the three "proposed and rejected" villains for "Gargoyles" - Mortify, Lichen, and Val Starch - and have to agree that they were "underwhelming", as you put it (although given that, as you also point out, they were the result of not too many people at Disney having experience with the animated action-drama genre at this time, I don't think that one should be too hard on the chap who designed them). The thing that really stands out about this trio to me, actually, is that I'd be hard-pressed to work out how they could serve as suitable thematic adversaries to a medieval gargoyle awakened in New York; they could fit nicely against a purely modern-day super-hero of the conventional sort, but don't strike me as being as appropriate to pit against Goliath as the antagonists who did make it into the series were. (Well, maybe Lichen as a fellow "monster", and Mortify's journalistic background could cause some problems, the way that in the actual series, "Jon Carter"'s report for WVRN did in "Hunter's Moon Part Three", but on the whole, it's more of a stretch than the "finished product" antagonists).
Yeah, I have to agree.
Nothing there for us really.
Greg responds...
I once read a Star Wars novel right after the original movie came out. It stank. Kinda turned me off that whole thing.
But you never know.
;-; you read Splinter of the Minds eye? huff. See when I read this trilogy of books it turned me *onto* the other books. Timothy Zahn is really a great writer. And turned me on so much so that I read through so many of the bad ones... including "splinter" <which was released shortly after the movie, pure crap>. Occasionally I try to make my way through another one here and there..... But everything pales. PALES!!!!!! ~taunts all the star wars fans who disagree~ sheep!!!! can't any of these so called hardcore fans see that a BIG MACHINE OF DEATH is kinda boring? book after book.... ;-; so depressing. But This trilogy.... MWAHAHAHH. 9.9; sorry
erhm, heheh. ^.^ anyways.... ~wavies the books in front of Greg~ If I managed to send these.... or not even these. Just the first one to Jen, would you consider reading it? "Heir to the Empire". Made the best seeeelllleeeerrrssss list. =) Hit number oooooonnnneeee. read the reviews online of it if my sales pitch didn't sell it.
and forget about the rest of the books. <a couple short stories are superb here and there but mostly they're blah>
running off now, spanish homework to do.
You don't have to send me books. (Thanks for the offer.) The truth is, I'm not interested in reading Star Wars-anything right now. That world isn't firing my imagination. The next book I plan on reading is William Faulkner's "New Orleans Sketches." Plan on starting it on the plane ride down to New Orleans. Right now that's just where I want to go.
But if I ever get nostalgic for Star Wars, I know which books to pick up. Thanks.
Sam asked "I was just curious, biologically, how old was everyone in the mini clan back in 1996? Thanks alot!"
yes, the MiniClan is an internet-based fan-clan. The majority of the clan is around the same age. in 1996 most of us were 15/16, with a few ranging off in each direction. that means most of us are around 19/20/21 now. but truely, the ages range from probably 5-50 or so ^_^
O.K. There you go, Sam, you have your answer.
Some of your posts indicate that you're a Highlander fan, or at least are familiar with the original movie and some of the T.V. series. I was wondering if you'd seen Highlander: Endgame yet. While not as good as the original, it was easily the best of the sequels, taking the best from the show and first movie and combining them into a poignant package. I went into this movie with a sense of despair (understandable, due to the last two big screen fiascos) and came out pleasantly surprised. The battle choreographing was topnotch too, on par with The Matrix and The Phantom Menace. Overall I consider seeing Highlander: Endgame a good use of an afternoon.
I did see Endgame. I kinda enjoyed it. I agree it's the best of the sequels.
The property as a whole is wildly inconsistent.
It's full of terrific ideas that never quite jell together, never totally make sense.
Some of the tv episodes were truly great. Others were just o.k. Some were godawful.
[SPOILER WARNING}
But I kinda liked endgame. I just thought the villain's motivation was beyond feeble. O.K. for a tv episode. But not nearly potent enough to cause the end of Connor.
One question: I saw a scene in the preview that I don't think was in the movie. The villain is cut in half and then mends himself immediately. Did you see that or am I imagining things?
And also I saw something in the preview that wasn't
among my gargoyle interests I fell in love with Star Wars for a while. And erhm... just gonna post my comment on that whole Phantom Menace bit. lalala.
There was this book trilogy that came out "Heir to the Empire", "Dark Force Rising", and "The Last Command". It took place 5 years after Return of the Jedi. Whole bunch of books released. And among any of these... technically non-canon books, these kicked ass! (a lot of them sucked) So if you just wanna make-believe that Mr. Lucas formally accepts them <he's all like "you can write them but they're not technically continuity" and why? for the money of course, so if he makes money, i say its all good>, it means there is something better than Return of the Jedi. So Phantom Menace is seeable!
sort of.... the movie sucked. I mean the action sequences were crisp, but the acting... god help us. Character development... sigh... So umm... if the next movie gets good reviews, maybe you'd consider reading those three kickass books which would be a little like a.... "what happened after Jedi bit", and see the movie?
Timothy Zahn is the author, and how he writes those books are truly brilliant. I found them more enticing than the original trilogy actually. And do you know why they were so good? full blown character development... and the villian! oh my god so ingeniously cool. I'd give a little more description cept this post is getting long already and don't even know if your interested.
and if you do read the books... be careful. Because out of that whole series as a whole, some really suck.
later Greg!
I once read a Star Wars novel right after the original movie came out. It stank. Kinda turned me off that whole thing.
But you never know.
I was reading some questions and people mentioned that the toon disney episodes were edited. I knew they got rid of deadly force but a never heard about this! Do you where there is a list of the edits so I can see what I'm missing?
Also, I can't belive they only show one episode a day now. At least they do it twice.
No. I think someone in the comment room, maybe Airwalker?, has one. Ask there.
They were showing two as recently as a month ago. Are you sure?
I recently realized that there is a certain similarity between the Sidero/Xavier team-up in the original comedy version of "Gargoyles" and the Hakon/Wolf team-up in "Vendettas". In both cases, a couple of villains team up against the gargoyles, one an original enemy of theirs from the Middle Ages, surviving on only as a ghost, the other a modern-day descendant of that medieval enemy who is scorned by his medieval ancestor for being too "poor-quality". Was the Sidero/Xavier team-up the distant inspiration for the Hakon/Wolf team-up?
Likely it very much was. Of course, the main motivator was the very talented Clancy Brown. But nothing gets wasted, consciously or otherwise.
Lexy> <<You mentioned that Sora was going to be one of the females included in the Manhattan Rookery>>
Actually Greg didn't...
Got it covered, Aris, but thanks.
*glances through questions being submitted*
Whoa.
I had no idea I was going to stir up so much controversy just mentioning the Phantom Menace. I too thought Mary Mack's sending *you*, someone who had just blatantly said that he had not seen this movie, a post full of spoilers was very distasteful.
I can't argue whether it was a good movie or not because that's a matter of opinion. Like I said before, I like *everything* so my opinions are always somewhat fluffy. I have yet to find a story that's a total waste. I have too much respect for people like you who put these things together (Cartoons, movies, stuff).
Where was I going with this? *checks map* Oh, yeah. Well, should you *ever* choose to see Phantom Menace, attempt to put aside the biases we've all thrown at you and enjoy or don't enjoy. Whichever.
That's a plan.
i just read your latest answeres and felt like pointing something out:
since i was about five years old ive been creating alternate characters for myself. i had read the name Siobhan in a book and liked it so much that one of my characters used that name. i just thought it was cool that youve thought of using that name too. *shrug* not a big thing, but i wanted to ramble ^_^
O.K.
I was wondering, since is is now available to rent on VHS/DVD, have you seen Princess Mononoke? It was a wonderful movie! Keith David did the voice of the leader of the Boar Clan...damned if I can remember the name. Did an excellent job too...But I can't help imagining that was Goliath, even sounded like some things Goliath might say at one point or another. He is also the narrator as well, at the beginning. If ya haven't seen it and do see it later, could you please post what ya think about it? I like your opinons on the other movies you saw (ex: Titan A.E., Jurassic Park, etc) Thanks so much!
I saw it in the theater. And I liked it a lot. It was stunning. I'd like to say more, but it was so long ago, and maybe this in itself is significant, but I can't remember the story too clearly. I do have a vague recollection that everyone's motivations were a bit confused. But I also liked how complex it was and how it was difficult to fully sympathize or dislike anyone.
*TWACK!s herself on the head.*
I just remebered and I keep on forgeting.
I meant ot tell you a while ago but as I said I forgot.
Anyways, short but true story:
School made us enter a poetry contest.
I was among the Winners.
Result It gets Published and I lose all rights to the poem (I didn't even get a discount on the book!)
Relavance: Said Poem was inspired by Gargoyles, Macbeth's plight of living forever in patcular. (I had just seen the ep where he was dressed as the hunter and trying to end it all)
Anthology of Poety by Young Americans, 2000 eedition, page tem, the long one, by Rachel Lindenberg.
-Nemi, who is weird and forgetful
Very cool. Congratulations. Can you post it here? (I assume it's not a narrative poem, right?)
I am terribly sorry about this, but for once I haven't read everything posted to the "waiting to be asked" page before posting this. Although I did do a quick scan. I am tying up my brother's line when he has the good grace to give me indefinite lone of his couch to save me from a monster commute. Of course if no one has asked yet, I am terribly sorry to have admitted that I haven't followed the rules:}
You just [9/5/00] posted: Intern Ideas
"Continuing our reprinting of old documents from the Gargoyles Development File.
This one was written by Regina Dixon, who was a college intern working at Disney TV Animation for the summer. Refer to previously posted documents to see what she was basing these ideas comedy springboards on.
I hate to say it, but in hindsight this seems like busy work to me. We hadn't even sold the show. We were a long way from needing story ideas. Still, I suppose it was good practice."
Is this complete? I have been keeping rather current and I don't remember specific episode ideas in the posting of old stuff.
As long as I am touching on my fear of missing anything.. you mentioned a chat on the 1rst of September (I think). Do you know if there is a transcript that can be posted? Or, Hi Gore! does Gore?
The chat was in the adult chat room. I think someone (was it Daniel?) kept a log.
And I fixed the Regina thing.
Greg, I was in the adult chat the night VP got you and most everybody else upset. I agree with your ramble on the subject 100%. I did not care much for VP's attitude, but what he said made a lot of sense. I didn't jump in and defend the guy because I really didn't want to alienate myself from the rest of fandom or offend you. But the more I thought about it the more I regretted not speaking up and am very happy with what you have said about the subject. At the time of the chat I was thinking things like "What if Frank Paur had other, conflicting ideas, why wouldn't they be considered canon?". Or "What if Disney had other ideas? They do own the show". I don't mean any offense by those statements, but they did go through my mind. That said, I really appreciate the time you spend answering my questions and certainly consider you the top authority on anything Gargoyles related. I hope and pray that Gargs gets back on the air and that you are the creative force behind it.
VP didn't really upset me. (I kept putting happy face icons by all my posts.) At first, I simply misunderstood him. And the chat was moving so fast, I didn't have time to contemplate what he was getting at.
Oh, well.
Tana> Well JRR Tolkien didn't exactly say that what he was writing was fact. More that (like Greg) he seemed to not be inventing, but rather delving into a subcreation - a universe that had some reality of its own, so that instead of inventing he just had to wait until he could see what had 'really' happened...
Uh, yeah...
Sorta.
A little comment-ramble-reply to your latest ramble (on whether your ideas for the Master Plan count as fanfic or not).
I certainly agree with you that it isn't really official or canon until it reaches the television screen (or whatever Disney's official medium for "Gargoyles" becomes next, when and if it returns). In fact, we've seen evidence enough already that things may get changed in the process of actually creating the stories (witness the exec who suggested that Goliath ask the Magus to place the "sleep until the castle rises above the clouds" spell upon him, rather than having the Magus make the offer first). But all the same, I do find myself leaning more towards your version of things - not just because you said them, but often because they simply make the most amount of sense to me.
One example that I will give here is the "Jon Canmore = Castaway" idea, which you had in mind in writing "The Journey", but which "The Goliath Chronicles" didn't pick up on, making Castaway just some villainous businessman after the gargoyles for no apparent reason other than "motiveless malignity". I believe in Castaway and Jon Canmore being the same, not just because you said so, but because it makes more sense to me that way. For one thing, it gives a good explanation for why Castaway acts the way that he does in "The Journey", his reason for hating the gargoyles so much and wanting to ruthlessly kill Goliath; take away the "He's really Jon Canmore" bit, as your successors at The Goliath Chronicles did, and he becomes more of an unsolvable mystery. Also, I noticed a few clues to that in "The Journey" - his name, for example (the moment that I heard the name "Castaway" the first time that I watched "The Journey", I automatically thought of the Canmores, since they'd used surnames beginning with hard C's throughout "Hunter's Moon" for their aliases), and also the fact that, if you look closely enough at his Quarryman badge, you can see the three red scratches of the Hunter protruding from beneath it. But at any rate, I do feel that, even without your own words, the notion that Castaway is really Jon makes the most convincing explanation for him.
Plus there's his last line: "Dream of me, Goliath! Dream of me!" said with a Scotish accent ala Canmore as opposed to Castaway's (phony) English accent.
Justa word of caution concerning Mary Mack's summary of The Phantom Menace: some people don't know how to enjoy a movie.
Basically, she wanted the movie equivalent of this: "Take everything you had planned for all 65/66 episodes of Gargoyles and make just ONE episode."
These idiots exist everywhere; beware of them. Bad advice can be the killer.
Watch the movie, forget any opinions but your own, and realize the following Darth Maul created with just ten minutes of screen time.
P.S. Luke Skywalker got a medal for blowing up the Death Star and killing somewhere in the neighboorhood of a million people who were just doing their job.
Uh, look. I didn't see the movie on the big screen and that had nothing to do with Mary (or anyone's opinion) but my own. It just didn't interest me that much. And you can largely blame RETURN OF THE JEDI for that.
Having missed it on the BIG SCREEN, I'm even less interested in seeing it on Video. Maybe when the next one comes out -- if the next one interests me, I'll rent Phantom Menace.
But for now, Darth Maul (all ten minutes of him) will just have to wait.
Btw, LSZ's "Zeroth" was a reference to some of Isaac Asimov's novels - mainly "Robots and Empire" if I remember correctly where the Zeroth Law comes to be added to the first Three Laws of Robotics. I assume you haven't read it? :-)
Nope. Sorry.
Gotta say, I LOVE reading these early documents of GARGOYLES.
I was rather surprised that Amp had originally been two separate characters (Nick and Trouble), and that there was a second precursor to Lexington (Campbell, I think it was).
I was also surprised to find that Dakota's own precursor, Georgette was not originally the leader, but instead the "should-be-leader" character. You had mentioned that the reason you changed Dakota to Demona was that she was too bland and uninteresting to be the leader of a comic team. Why was she made the full leader when the cast was slimmed? Do you think her more "serious" character would have worked in the original role of Georgette?
Human-wise: I never even suspected the inclusion of Sidero, though it sounds like it could have made for some fun conversations. Xavier sounds every bit as Igthorn-ish as I imagined him to be (I don't know why, but just from your original description of him, I thought of Igthorn). And already, Morgan has gone through THREE changes of profession--before she was named she was a lab person working for Xavier, then she became a curator, and finally an archeologist. Actually, after that, she became BOTH of the latter. This woman just wanted to be everything, didn't she?
Owen...I can't help but smile at the image of an aardvark plunking away at a computer or hitting on a woman.
I have always been interested in how you guys originally developed the series. I remember asking the question of the comedic counter-parts of the characters way back when ASK GREG first went on-line. Now I'm learning more of it than I ever dreamed existed.
Thanks. I mean it.
You're welcome.
You gotta remember that Development is a process. A series of choices. You can talk about roads not taken, but it's hard to get too hypothetical about them.
As for Morgan, now (as of the memos I posted today and yesterday) she's a pilot and inventor. And we're not done yet. What's interesting to me, is that I'm only re-reading these memos one at a time myself. So I'm often as surprised as you are.
Oh, and thank you for the "Owen as an aardvark" memo (this is one part of the original comedy development that I especially rememebered - I once mentioned it in a Gargoyles newsgroup, in fact - and promptly sent one of the other members into shock over it). It was interesting getting to see the "original draft" character descriptions for Elisa, Owen, and Xanatos (as Morgan, Owen, and Xavier).
And yep, I've got to agree with you that Xavier would have been annoying in a serious drama as a major villain, but works nicely as the main villain of a comedy series (just like Duke Igthorne, whom I recall quite well).
I LOVED IGTHORN.
I love Hook.
But, no, I'm not sure what I'd do with them in the Gargoyles Universe. Though... Hmmmm.....
ramble:
morgan and dakota as good buddies? o.O ahh?
seriously- thanx for all the pre-gargs info. i love to see what the show evolved from, and laugh at all the close calls ^_^ i still cant get over the pic of RALPH from g2k. oh my GHOD. the show wouldnt have gotten the respect that it did, and the following, if it had stayed in the gummy bears phase. im sure of it. (no offense, but gummybears didnt have that following, and i dont think gargs would have either)
*gets off her soap box* ^_-
I never showed a picture of Ralph at G2K. You saw an early design of Hudson. Ralph looked very different.
And I also don't think the show would have had the following it had as a comedy. It would have been a great cartoon show. But not the six year ego boost that this show has been. :)
To Duncan Devlin who said: "I don't quite understand the response. From my experience, not ALL things are true."
Let me just paraphrase a sentence of Terry Pratchett: "All things are true, for a given value of 'true' "
Yeah. Exactly.
By the way, thanks for reading the questions. It's very refreshing.
Who's Terry Pratchett?
By the time you read this, you will probably have the answer, but just in case:
A poster has been asking you questions about the "connection" of the fey. I beleive what he or she is referring to is what powers or forces they are associated with. Example: Aphrodite, love. Seth(or Set), storms and evil. I hope this helps. See 'ya again! P.S. I'm shortening my name.
Thanks. Yeah. A couple people pointed this out. But thanks.
Hi,
I'd just like to back Mary Mack's summary/review of The Phantom Menace. It was everything she described it as.
I'd also like to voice my pleasure at the sight of Wrath of Khan in your list of favorite movies. It's in mine, too, but most of the time that film seems to get jipped. Either the person's someone who has an inexplicable (and I venture to say shallow) distaste for Star Trek, or they'd rather claim First Contact as the hands-down best film, ignoring the originals.
Incidentally, I thought First Contact was a travesty. Maybe think "First Knight" for Arthurian Legend, to get an idea.
I think First Contact was a MUCH better Star Trek film than First Knight was an Arthurian Film. First Knight with Connery as Arthur was a movie I was very looking forward to and wound up being a HUGE disappointment to me. Though perhaps not for the reasons you might think. I was going with it for awhile. But ultimately, I couldn't bear it.
First Contact on the other hand seemed like a great, exciting movie to me. I've heard people bitching about the fact that Cochrane was supposed to be born on Alpha Centauri and not Earth, but a look at any (even pre-First Contact Trek Timeline) reveals that to be impossible. And the original Cochrane Trek episode never said he was BORN on A.C. The time travel, to my tastes, is messy, but I'm used to that vis-a-vis Star Trek. Etc., Etc., I'm not saying the movie is flawless. But Star Trek was never flawless. Wrath of Khan wasn't. (Though it's still my favorite.) And I've been watching Trek for a VERY long time.
So I definitely do NOT get the comparison at all. But all of the above is just my opinion. Nothing more.
*reads your post about needing a tape recording of her voice* well, i work at an 800 number. ill send it to gorebash, and you can feel free to call me any time. ^_^ im the receptionist, so unless im at lunch (generally between 11:45 and 12:45 eastern) ill be the one to answer the phone!
Thanks. I'm mostly teasing you. I do think you have a great voice, but I'll try not to bug you at work. :)
hey Greg, what's up? Well, this isn't really a Gargoyle related question, it's more about one of the movies you mention being one of your favorites: Ghostbusters. That is one of my all time favorite movies. I see you didn't seem to like the sequel. I rather enjoyed GB2, heck I bought both movies last weekend, but I guess i can see why you didn't like it. I mean walking Statue of Liberty, "Mood Slime" that responded to good/bad vibes...ect...
My passion for Ghostbusters goes back to my when I was 5. Oh I remember religiously watching "The Real Ghostbusters" every day before kindergarten. Me and my brother used to dress up in old pyjammas, which our mother altered to have the Ghostbuster logo on the shoulders, and would run around the neighbourhood pretending to "bust" ghosts.
Anyway, back to the movie. My mother must have hated that movie with a passion, simply because it was the only thing we'd rent whenever we'd go to our grand-parents house (who had a VCR when we didn't) must have seen the movie like 60 times back then, and that was before I could appreaciate the witty humor, let alone understand the plot.
Last year, I watched the movie for the first time in about 10 years. I never realized excactly how clever of a movie it was. It was hillarious, yet not off the wall not to be taken seriously. Even the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man provided a serious enough threat.
Come to think of it, this actually is a Gargoyles question. Gozer's Terror Dogs, the one's who possessed Dana and Louis reminded me an awful lot of Bronx. Did this in anyway inspire you to create the Gargoyle Beasts? Also, the Terror Dogs came to life by breaking out out of it's stone shell, much like the way Gargoyles do. Is this simply a coincidence? I remember you stating that your inspirations for Gargoyles were Gummi Bears, actual stone gargoyles, Hill Street Blues. But is it possible that Ghostbusters is among one of the inspirations for Gargoyles? Or am I just making wild speculations in hoping that one of my favorite movies helped inspire one of my favorite animated shows?
The terror dogs might have influenced Frank Paur, who redesigned Bronx to the shape we currently know and love. But I wouldn't want to speak for Frank. You'd have to ask him.
But I did like the movie a lot.
This is a sort of response to your comments on doing or not doing a Gargoyles/super-hero crossover of any sort. You mentioned that you didn't see it happening, short of a crossing between parallel universes, because the Gargoyles Universe and the super-hero universes of DC and Marvel Comics are very different in style. From what I know of mainstream super-heroes (which, I will confess, isn't all that much), I can certainly agree with you.
Take Batman, for example. The Batman Universe is clearly different enough from the Gargoyles Universe. In the Batman Universe, the "super-villains" are more out in the open, with the public all too aware of them. In the Gargoyles Universe, the "super-villains" are more low-profile; the general public don't know that Demona, Thailog, Oberon's Children, and the Illuminati actually exist. They know about Xanatos and Macbeth, but only in terms of their public personas; they know about the Pack, but only as "TV actors who went bad" - I haven't seen any indications that the general public know as yet about Jackal and Hyena being cyborgs now or Wolf being a mutant wolf-man. They don't even know for certain about the gargoyles until the end of "Hunter's Moon Part Three" - and even then all that they know is that the gargoyles exist, and nothing more than that.
In conventional super-hero universes, the weird and paranormal is very public and high-profile, known to the public. In the Gargoyles Universe, the weirdness exists just as surely, but is far more "covered up". For this reason, I can't seriously imagine Batman or Superman or Spiderman or the X-Men existing in the same universe as the gargoyles.
They clearly don't exist in the Gargoyles Universe. I suppose it's possible that parallel versions of the Gargoyles exist in THEIR universes. But for a variety of reasons, I don't see it happening any time soon.
This is a comment inspired by your recent answers to the "Tempest" question. While you never did manage to get "The Tempest" into Gargoyles outright (and I found that a pity, for my own part), I've sometimes thought that Angela does resemble Miranda a little (in the same way that, to me, Thailog resembles Edmund in "King Lear" and Demona Shylock) - there's the same general concept there of a sweet, innocent girl being brought up on a mysterious magical island and filled with wonder at the outside world (Miranda's "brave new world" lines strike me as being just as suitable for Angela as they were for the original speaker). I just thought that you might be interested.
Yeah. Angela/Miranda. That's there. But I won't pretend I was conscious of it. But like with Thailog/Edmund, the play is such an intrinsic part of my consciousness and education, I'm sure I was influenced by it.
So, you didn't see The Phantom Menace.
SPOILERS
Lucky guy. That movie got me all bent out of shape for lots of reasons, and I think some of them stem from being a Gargoyles addict. I respect nonhumans. In Phantom Menace, the nonhumans were either villains (the inept flunkie-type, at that) or stupid as dirt and present only for comic relief. Anybody who could possibly save the day had to be human and under twenty-one, and somebody thought that having a nine-year-old boy destroy a battleship full of sentient beings was a GOOD idea. (Okay, so the kid grew up to be Darth Vader, but really, they practically threw him a party for mass murder!) Qui-Gon Jinn, our first real look at a Jedi Knight in his prime, cheated at dice. How very, very honorable of him. Darth Maul, who had the potential to be scary and evil and really, really neat, talked a little, did some impressive acrobatics (played by Toad from X-Men, now there's a good movie), and died. Seven minutes of screen time, tops. Folks mention racial stereotypes in the film; they're right. I wondered why those trade federation guys didn't just say "Ah, so!" and get it over with. Or why Jar-Jar didn't offer Obi-Wan a hit of whatever he was smoking. The direction was minimal, the dialog weak, and most of the actors seem too scared of Mr. Lucas to improvise. The special effects were eye-popping, but hardly ever seemed to have anything to do with the plot. One character is introduced solely as comic relief (Jar-Jar), and he has no witty repartee, just slapstick that occurs beacuse he's the stupid nonhuman.
Basically, you missed a gaping wad of nothing by missing Phantom Menace, and you're luckier than I am. That movie managed to sour me on Star Wars as a whole-- pre-Phantom, I'd read every book, bought action figures, comics, expensive expandable lightsabres... post-Phantom, zip. Gargoyles, Star Wars fiction, Star Trek, Sci-Fi and Fantasy books all gave me an appreciation for good stories where the villains were interesting, the plots thick, and the heroes not neccesarily caucasian humans. The Phantom Menace was bad. It was, to Star Wars, what the Goliath Chronicles was to Gargoyles. Only shorter.
Yikes.
Greg, You seemed confused on LSZ's use of "Zeroth." I first read it as ZEH-roth but then realized he meant
ZEE-rothe as in 0th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Is that what confused you as well or am I just... um, dumb?
Well, your transliterations didn't help at all. But, yes, I now get that Zeroth was his zero equivalent for first, second, third. Which didn't occur to me at all until his most recent post.
As to the Zeroth thing; I'm not sure if you used it or not, but it seemed a logical thing to call the pre-First Race; thought of this while reading Asimov on his Three and then Four Laws of Robotics..
You have a knack for writing questions that I just don't get.
I think part of the problem may be that you assume I have a better memory than I do. I'll post something. You'll respond with a new post. But it'll be weeks before I see you're new post and respond to it. By which time, I've forgotten what we were discussing.
Help me out!!
I just read the latest "early development" memo. I found it another fun "behind the scenes" peek at the early history of "Gargoyles".
The two bits that particularly stood out to me were:
1. The gargoyles fondness for partying (which was also mentioned in the earlier memos). That obviously pre-dated Goliath's introduction into the project, given that I have a very hard time imagine Goliath partying. The trio (whose proto-versions WERE in the original comedy development, I recall), yes, but Goliath - I don't even want to make the attempt.
2. Xanatos's original as the several-times-great-nephew to the evil wizard (the original of the Archmage, the Magus, or both?). The thing that stood out to me here was that the nephew character struck me from the description as sounding like a conventional cartoon villain rather than the very memorable and convention-flouting David Xanatos. It makes it amazing when you think over what this character would eventually become.
I'm looking forward to the rest of the memos, to see what other treasures they might contain.
Yeah, it's kinda fun for me to revisit this stuff too.
I won't comment on your comments, since by now, I'm sure you've read my comments on more recently posted memos, which, I believe, cover most of those points. (And if they don't, don't hesitate to bring them up again.)
Okay, this is a response to that S.T. Coleridge reference and suspending disbelief.
I've been blessed with a really great English teacher who I loved so much in Freshman Comp 101, that I took him again for Literature and again in Survey of Shakespeare. Last spring semester, he lectured a bit about how to read fiction effectively. In my notes I have written down:
"be imaginatively involved in the work" That's Mr. Farrell and not Coleridge. He then quoted Coleridge saying reading fiction should be "a willing suspension of disbelief." In other words, while reading about a giant dragon, you're not supposed to think to yourself, "there's no such thing as a giant dragon." In a work of fiction, you put yourself into that world... like a certain universe we all know and love.
Just thought I'd clarify.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with suspending belief either...
If that's the accurate Coleridge quotation, and it sounds like it is, than it certainly works. We suspend our disbelief, that is we put our dibelief on hold.
The reason, I'm guessing, why the quote is often misquoted the other way is because "suspend" has other denotations as well. We could "suspend our belief", that is hold it up over the not-so-believable parts. Keep our belief aloft.
So either "work". But since we're all paraphrasing Coleridge, something I didn't realize until you told me, it's nice to get it right.
I just want to say that Gargyles is one of my alltime favorite cartoons and I am 25. I just want to know is there
a time or place that I can view Gargoyles outside of toon disney since it is not available in my area.
Not that I'm aware of.
You asked me (warily) why I didn't like "Leader of the Pack" as much as other episodes. Oh, gee, where do I start? ;)
First off, let me say that I didn't hate it. In fact, I think I liked it originally. This episode, unfortunately, had a nasty habit of being constantly rerun to the point of nausea. I'd get sick of the *best* of episodes if it kept being shown over and over. It eventually came to a point where I'd turn off the TV as soon as I'd hear the music that began the ep, (on a good day, I'd get through the entire first act before shutting it off).
Another thing that didn't quite work for me was the animation. Some parts looked good. Other parts looked like a sloppy version of Darkwing Duck or Tiny Toons. Just how big were Lexington's eyes, anyhow?
I also didn't buy that Lexington could be so vengeful. Didn't seem in character.
It was a nice touch to have Brooklyn giving him the "don't be vengeful" lecture, but later episodes depict Brooklyn jumping the gun just like Lex does here. Similarly, (a la "Hunter's Moon 1"), Brooklyn endangers the clan by giving up the element of surprise. Awful reckless for someone who both recognizes the pitfalls of vengeance and is the second-in-command.
Also, it may just be that I didn't like this episode as much as others because it was a Pack episode. The Pack is the closest thing the gargs have to cliched villains. I liked "Thrill," "Brother's Keeper," and "Upgrade," but disliked others like "Leader," and "The Green." Maybe I just find the Pack inaccessible as characters.
Criticism aside, I'm still a big fan of the show as a whole. There are an extremely small number of episodes that I thought were mediocre, (looking forward to your ramble on "Monsters", BTW). An excellent show like "Gargoyles" can get away with a few lesser-quality eps.
"Gargoyles" wasn't perfect. It was only damned good.
Now, before I offend thee further, I shall depart most hastily.
<leaves smoke trail in his wake>
I'm not offended. Can't win 'em all.
Puck40's top five favorite episode list. Yeah yeah, I'm sure no one out there cares. But I'm telling for those people who are bored and just want something to read.... yeah thats it. So I'll put a quote in for each one that I think makes the episode *the* episode. (mind you, this isn't necessarilly the order I like the episodes in)
Enter Macbeth.
Why? look at my post praising if if you want. But this quote should justify all that is good.
~~"Its not you I'm after, your just a pawn, I want your QUEEN" - "Queen? We have no Queen" - "No?! then what about... Demona" - "You know Demona?" - "KNOW HER?! (doesn't Macbeth laugh so cool right here?) I *named* her... if I captured you, the last of your kind, she will come to free you, its *her* I want." - (twisted Goliath Thailog like laughter, guess he does know how to laugh maniacally) "Then you are a FOOL! She is our enemy... she wouldn't lift a talon to save us."
The Edge.
This almost doesn't make it due to the fact I hate broadway and he got lots of action shots. But ah... Xanatos.
~~"I was a little worried that I might be getting soft. But I was able to stand up against Goliath, the greatest warrior alive. I'd say I've still got the edge."~~
If that line right there doesn't clench people into the episode... you all suck. His triumphs over losses. How his goal is always usually a small one that no one knows about, versus the fight that he fights. With freeing the pack and Coyote its all about Fox. Everything else is just subterfuge, yeah he kicks ass. And this episode was him, just wanting a self esteem boost. Something so trivial yet massively important! Spoon.
The Mirror.
Hey.... its Puck. its a really *fun* episode, and massively well written and acted besides the "cheesy" one liners. they were here... like the one that went something like "my strength has never depended on brute force, but on true friends" blah... or... "with Demona involved its more than (insert word lex or brook said here) its dangerous." But it was also the true *start* of the relationship with Elisa/Goliath. Very cool. which quote to choose from though... not any of the three bad ones... oh heck
~~"It was a ROMP indeed!" - "Spare me your gloating just go...." - "With out giving you something in return for all this merriment? Puck is many things, but never a poor guest!" - "Please.... Leave." - (an annoyed Puck right here) "You wanted to be your gargoyle self by night, and *not* stone by day? So be it."~~ (am sure everyone knows the spell by heart if your actually reading stuff in the Ask Greg.)
Vows.
The episode on my top five didn't use to be Vows, it was Avalon Part 2. Until I realized, when you go Time Travel wise... sure David Warners cool. But this episode so takes the cake. Again Xanatos is the "anti-hero", wouldn't say villian for this one. Whats his goal? To make sure he's rich, sure... but above all. He wants to impress his dad. Its such a childish thing, wanting to impress your dad, it always sticks with you. You don't want to be the dissapointment. So this was his alterior motive. And Petros... Clencher for this episode has to be this quote which by far gave me goosebumps first time I heard it.
~~"Whats this?" "A simple American penny, its not worth much now but in a thousand years.... Who knows? Its my wedding present to you, because its *all* you seem to care about."~~
yeah
And last but not least..
Future Tense.
Come on, you all knew it'd be here. I first saw it and was like... god... this is is so wrong but good!! and the end with Puck it was like. heheh, kickass! This episode was good for so many multiple reasons. The future depiction... the epic storyness. Xanatos killing Alexander, Hudson the first Hero of the war. That was SOOO cool. Lex the villian, Brooklyn punching out Goliath. Goliath showing he semi still had feelings for her by the end, hey... this was more the "old" her afterall, ne ne Greg? But as I said just above... I hated broadway. But I swear... this episode almost made me cry. The quote.
~~"Hold on Broadway... if you can last until sunrise you'll be healed." - "ohhh.... yes..... the sun. Can you see it Goliath... its.. beautiful...." - ".... goodbye.. my friend.."~~
(sniffle) that ones in the Avalon Archives.
Okay okay. the main reason I put this post up was to see if anyone else would put up there favorite top 5 or so episodes and "why" they were there favorite.
I'm gonna end this with one more quote since I've been doing them throughout... This one shows... that this show in general was more than a normal cartoon. It had depth.. continuity.. emotion... I give you the quote I think sums up that this series was truely unique.
Katherine: "Oh Magus... what have yae done?"
Magus: "Princess.. I-"
Katherine: "shhh... lay still now.. we'll get yae back tae th' palace an the-"
Magus: "n-no.... no katherine. i think i shall like to stay here.."
Goliath: "I owe you a great debt Magus"
Magus: "yooou... but, i cursed your clan"
Goliath: "You saved my children"
Magus: "hnn... oh I'm so tired... i think I would.... like to resst."
Katherine: "Yae *caenot" leave mae now."
Magus: "neveerr.. my princess.."
Katherine: "nooo Magus"
~and cue the music played over Katherine crying~
~on a note, most of these quotes are downloadable at http://avalon.gargoyles-fans.org~
Wow. Thanks. Yeah!! All of you! What are your top five favorite episodes and WHY? I'd really like to know. I'm guessing we'll get a lot of repetition, but what the hell.
You hate Broadway?
Puck40 writes (in reference to Enter Macbeth):
Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.
Greg responds...
Only the top three? :)
to which I respond. I meant episode!!!!
the show is by far my favorite American Cartoon(few have ever had continuity or intelligence, batman intelligence, x-men continuity, how many "combined" the two?). The storyline was beyond Excellent. The character development amazing. I mean, would've craved to see others more developed. Even Puck, who appeared in a mere 4 episodes, had a "fair" amount of screen time, evolved so far beyond a 2d character. He was shown how he was usually depicted..... mischievous, happy, fun. But he also had to him moments of annoyance at being forced to due stuff, a gift rejected, oh he'll get back at that. And less us not forget "Not Eternally!!!!" the panic in him there. I mean sweet! It measures up to Anime very easilly with animation at "moments" that could pass it in a heartbeat.
but meant episode. ^.^ hmmmm just for the hell of it I'll do another post in a sec
Well, that's more like it. ;)
just read yer x-men ramble. so i thought id ramble a little ^_^ (twice in one day!! AAK!)
re: jurassic park and the lost world
okay anyone who knows me knows i LOVE dinosaurs. i love these movies because they have dinosaurs. but anyone who WATCHES these movies with me will immediately know that ive seen them at least 30 times (no exxageration) and i continually spout off the mistakes. editing errors, creative liberties and just plain MISTAKES. theres a HUGE list of them. the spelled the embryo label "stegAsaurus" instead of "stegOsaurus." they have the car fall into a revine as the t-rex pushed it over where it had torn down the fence, but WAIT? how did it tear down the fence if there is a revine? for that matter, where did the ground go that the goat was standing on? one could say that in the shot of the car going over, there is a patch of high ground on the left, but the t-rex actually pushed the car over where it had stepped out originally, hence the torn fense (am i clear on this? i dont think i sound like im making sense...) there are TONS of mistakes. but i like dinosaurs. so lets say i like the dinosaurs in the movie, more than i like the movie. i wanted to ask tho, have you read the books? dont read the lost world. it was written for the movie, and was badly done. but the original JP- was FANTASTIC. at least in my opinion. i read it 8 times. even better was Robert Bakker's Raptor Red. HIGHLY reccomend that one.
re: x-men
rogue's hair goes blonde in the end because her character in the comic book had a patch of blonde (or white, depending on what comic u read) hair on top of her head. i duno if that was originally a tribute to any other character or not. (i hadnt read the original comic. the only exposure to x-men i had was the animated serise, which i only watched a few of.)
re: comics in general
i used to read a lot of wonder woman (not the original stuff, but from about 1990-1991) and WildC.A.T.S. i LOVED the cats. Zealot was my HERO. but then the comic went all soap-opera and i was like "this sux." they broke up the original cast. its like "we have something thats doing well. lets CHANGE EVERY ASPECT OF IT, SHALL WE?" (soung familiar?) i did buy a few of Zealot's comics (#1-3 i think) and Grifter's (#8-10). grifters kinda sucked, but i liked Zealot's.
are there movies that you DO like? im guessing not many. perhaps youre spoiled on shakespear (oh thats a shame ;P) of course it may be that youve created something so great, with such attention to detail, that anything without that minute attention just doesnt do anything for you. care to comment on why youre repulsed by so many movies?
ok enough ranting for one post...
Re: J.Park: I haven't read the books.
Actually, there are a lot of movies I like. I recently listed a whole bunch.
I also like The Bishop's Wife (the original), Groundhog Day, Miracle on 34th Street (the original), An American in Paris, Highlander (despite myself), Sliding Doors, The Croupier, etc.
Greg, thanks for the ramble about taking your kids to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream". Nice to see you passing Shakespeare on to the next generation. Though Erin and Ben are not the only ones you're teaching/taught it to.
I have yet to see "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (though I saw the movie) performed, but I saw "Titus" last summer, and as you know "A Winter's Tale" with Keith David recently. I loved both of them and look forward to seeing more. Though originally (before "Gargoyles"), I thought of Shakespeare the way your average teenager thinks of it... as boring old books.
Through "Gargoyles" I learned to love and appreciate the Immortal Bard and his works. I planned to tell you this at the Gathering, but at the last minute I could not make it. I'll see you again next year though.
Not just Shakespeare, you inspired me to pick up a book.
Thanks. That really makes me happy.
Sorry you missed the Gathering. Bring your brother to the next one.
Just read your new posts on the very early documents for the series, and wanted to thank you for them. The one that particularly intrigued me was the one where Goliath (or the Goliath-equivalent character) was an artificial creation of an evil wizard (the original version of the Archmage?), and the rest of the gargoyles were, in a sense, his "artificial creations". That was certainly a bit of a surprise, seeing that the early days of the series were taking the slant on gargoyles that you finally rejected, that in the first draft stage they actually were statues brought to life rather than members of a pre-human race that arose through natural means.
I was also amused to see the "lock, stock, and gargoyle" phrase in there because I recall that it made it into the finished product, when Elisa uses it in "The Thrill of the Hunt".
At any rate, thanks for that post.
You are welcome, sir. Stay tuned for more...
THE MIRROR
When this ep first aired I made a mistake in programming my VCR so I missed the entire first Act. I was quite happy when I finally did get a chance to see it (I got a more thourough intro to Puck, saw how Demona stole the Mirror, what was so special about the Mirror, and what the heck Hudson had meant by describing Puck as one of Oberon's Children--I've become much better educated since then). Despite this, I wasn't too lost with the other two Acts. In fact, even missing the first Act, I found myself thouroughly enjoying this ep!
Added Note: I always wondered whether Elisa's frozen image in the Mirror was intentional (it seemed too blatently obvious to be a complete mistake). And I never even recognized Elisa when she was disguised.
Elisa definitly looks good as a gargoyle. Maybe it's the skin color, ears, or just the way she's now dressed (I always thought Puck assimilated her jacket into her skin--the colors are slightly similar), but at the time, I thought she looked even better than Demona (and would THAT have been a blow to D's ego). As if it weren't enough for Elisa to be able to kick her can when they're both in the same form (as gargoyle and as human, Elisa always wins).
Puck himself is an absolute riot. I wondered who the wonderfully dry and sarcastic fellow providing that little elf's voice was. Imagine my surprise when it turned out to be Brent Spiner (I had only ever seen him as Data). He has great lines, as you pointed out, and makes for some hilarious hijinks. One of my favorite moments though is when Bronx comes at him. "Let's improve your looks!" Bronx turns into a wolf-hound. "Should've tried the chihuaua" (sp?).
I (along with Entity) am actually glad that Puck didn't end up breaking the fourth wall. Sure, it might have been fun, but it really does seem as if it would have been distracting to me, and would have damaged that "realistic" edge to the characters. I think Frank and Dennis (or was it Bob?) made a good call on that one (not to put you down or anything).
The inclusion of Puck in the series was a pleasant surprise--such a fun and interesting character from Shakespeare put into my favorite show and balancing out the more solomn and serious Macbeth. The revelation that there was a whole race of creatures just like him whetted my appetite for more magic.
I got the whole "switched perspective" bit--quite easily I might say. And I did enjoy some of the scenes that resulted in. All these gargoyles going about like normal everyday humans. Running from our heroes when they are changed to humans, and trying to attack the Trio. One of my favorite moments in the whole series there:
Brooklyn--"Hey, we're the 'monsters' remember? So..."
The Trio give pathetic human imitation growls and try to look threatening.
Attacking gargoyles--"Oh." Run away, screaming.
All the while I'm ROTFLMHO. I also enjoyed Hudson's line to Goliath when all the garg-peoples run away--"Are you sure this is a good idea?" Just the line, the situation, and Ed Asner's reading off it make it hilarious.
Another reason I like this ep so much is the focus put on Goliath and Elisa. Unfortunately, you and everybody else have already repeated all their great exchanges, and little moments. (sigh) So, there really isn't much more that I can add, other than how frustrating and sad their final moment in the episode felt.
Demona as a human in the daytime (I understood the spell right off). I cannot express to you how excited I was about this development. For quite some time I was hoping one of the gargoyles (or a new one) would have the ability to transform to a human during the day (just for fun, on my part). Demona worked for me, both because it increased her danger, and was full of wonderful irony. Her horrified "NOOOOO" and smashing the Mirror were great character moments. Since I didn't know about the tiers and tentpoles system then, I always wondered why it took you guys until HIGH NOON to bring her "human-problem" back into the picture. I also loved how her first impression of the sun, and Hudson's last, wistful line in the ep, show gargoyles' feelings about the sun. I don't know why, I just do.
This was the first ep I watched twice and more while I had it on my tape (and the first one I all but forced my family to watch). Excellent.
Thanks.
Hey Greg,
While reading the posts, I've noticed how a bunch of people have complained about the World Tour. They thought it was too dull, went on too long, neglected the rest of the clan back in Manhattan, etc. I get their complaints, and I can understand their point of view.
But I for one loved The World Tour and the changes it brought to a show that I already loved. It expanded and enhanced the "Gargoyles" universe while moving along certain plotlines crucial to the story. Here's a few of the things I liked about it:
1) Angela. Love, Love, LOVE Angela!! The World Tour introduced her, and through her adventures I got to know her and love her as much as the rest of the clan. Her addition to the show was great--she brought out a side of Goliath's character I hadn't seen before, introduced the rest of the clan to her unique view of humans (she was raised by them, after all), and made a interesting development to the Goliath/Demona relationship. Plus Angela was smart, kind, and beautiful, a sensitive being and cunning warrior all wrapped together. I also liked her relationship with Elisa, who had a better mother-daughter relationship with Angela than Demona did (just one more reason for Demona to hate her). Great character, great move for the show.
2) The Third Race. I got to see more members of the Third Race!!! Odin, Banshee, Anubus...I loved them all, and the episode with Oberon and Titania was a gigundo bonus! Then there was the New Olympians, Loch Ness Monster, and other legendary beings who popped in. As a rule, I love mythology, magic, and fantasy stories. Greek mythology in particular has always held a place close to my heart. So tuning in each day and learning that the gods, monsters, and mystical beings from various cultures were real and had an influence on the ("Gargoyles") Universe was very, very cool for me.
3) New and Old Faces. We got the Pack, TWO Coyotes, Sevarius, Thailog, Demona, Macbeth, Xanatos, Renard, and others I'm probably forgetting. But we also got the new gargoyle clans and a host of other interesting new characters who would have played a larger role in the series had it continued. I loved how old mixed with new and created fresh stories and new possibilities. It kept me excited from day to day as I waited for the next installment--who would show up next, someone old or someone new? Very cool indeed.
4) Exotic places. The show left Manhattan and got to explore the world. The different locations offered new challenges in their own rights as the group had to cope with various climate and cultural differences. Makes me happy.
There are others, but this post will get too long, so I shall conclude:
Did I miss the Trio and Hudson? Sure. Was I disappointed that I never got to see how Xanatos would take advantage of Goliath's absense to make trouble for the others? You bet. But despite that, I loved the World Tour and the changes it brought to the series. I looked forward to the new adventure each day, and I wouldn't have you take back any of them.
Just thought you'd like to know.
Thank you very much. I couldn't of said it better myself.
(And the check's in the mail. Shhhh.)
The Mirror
This is just about one of my favorite episodes, if not THE fav. I loved everything about it. The animation, the style, the music, the story, the characters. As you said, this was the point when Goliath and Elisa's relationship is officially established. For one brief night, it was a perfect world...besides Demona running amok. Elisa was the most beautiful gargoyle I had seen on the show. I loved her colors and her face. The animators kept her features, but brightened them. When she first sees Goliath after her transformation and when she goes to glide, but gets afraid. Both those moments, I loved with the Elisa garg. I have always loved and respected the show for it's seriousness, but I do also like the humor points now and then. Puck was a wonderful addition to the show. He messes with Demona so much. It was great. Because unlike Elisa, Goliath, etc. there is nothing she can really do. I love Puck's one liners. He's a wonderful trickster. And this show got me to go out and read Midsummer's Night Dream and see the movies on it. I never cared much about Shakespeare till I saw this show. When Macbeth first appeared, just weeks later, my English class had to read the play, and I had a leg up on it. I knew the story was different, but I had the general idea. My reaction to Demona being human...laughing hysterically. I love the irony. She was to become the very thing she hated. I feel Demona is too far on her high horse to come down and admit she did have a torch still for Goliath, but I didn't know it till then. I think by the time Hunter's Moon came around, the torch was long dead, but her hatred for Elisa grew even more..."How dare Goliath choose another over me...and how dare it be a HUMAN of all vial creatures upon this Earth!"-kinda thing. All in all, I did enjoy this ep. It was a big turning point
For all of us. I think that THE MIRROR is an obvious candidate for best single episode in the series. If you discount the multi-parters (which can't be matched for epic scope), I'd have to vote hands-down that it's my favorite.
Just read your ramble-review on "The Mirror". I enjoyed that, and decided to give my own comments now.
I always liked this one, although the first time that I saw it, seeing Elisa and the other humans turned into gargoyles unnerved me just a bit. I thought myself that the Goliath/Elisa scenes were nicely handled (although, the first time I saw this episode, I don't think that I actually picked up on what was going on between them, which is a bit on the embarrassing side). And I thought that the bits about the characters' memories getting switched when they were transformed were well-done as well. (Good thing for the New Yorkers that Puck thought to handle their memories accordingly; I don't even want to imagine the results of all those humans in New York suddenly realizing that they've been changed into bat-winged creatures).
Brooklyn obviously must have taken his own advice from his conversation with Lexington in "Enter Macbeth" about Shakespeare's plays, judging from his "Midsummer Night's Dream" comment. (And Demona obviously must not have read that one, or she'd have known from the start that employing Puck to get things done isn't the wisest course in the world, considering the mess that he made of the whole Lysander/Hermia/Demetrius/Helena business. I've sometimes wondered if he was indeed telling the truth to Oberon about "All those Athenians look alike to me!" :) Just goes to show that Xanatos made a sound decision in choosing a lifetime of service from Owen over a wish from Puck).
Oddly enough, I missed that bit about "You serve the human" until AFTER I found out from "The Gathering Part Two" that Owen and Puck were the same, but then I started suspecting that "the human" was a reference to Xanatos even before you confirmed it.
And I agree with you about "changeling" being misused; properly speaking, it should refer only to faerie children in the human world like your version of Morgan le Fay. (Then again, Shakespeare misused the word himself when he applied it to that little Indian prince, who was actually the human baby swapped for a changeling, so you're in good company).
And I've sometimes wondered about Elisa's red jacket and shoes disappearing and reappearing myself.
One thing that I sometimes wonder about this one: what was all that medieval weaponry doing in the shop window that Demona smashed?
And I thought that Puck's little gift to Demona was a great touch for the series. It makes her much more dangerous (they can't use the same strategy on her any more that Hudson used in "Long Way Till Morning"), and inflicts upon Demona the ultimate irony: she, who hates humans so much, now has to regularly become a human herself in the daytime.
Oh, and I was delighted with the inclusion of Puck and the revelation of faerie-folk out there in this story. One step of "Gargoyles" that I was pleased by.
Thanks for the ramble.
You're welcome. We like the same stuff.
This is more of a ramble/comment than a question, but I thought that I'd print it here.
I've noticed that every so often, you get questions about whether the Illuminati are evil (the last one of which you answered with "Not in their opinion"). I've occasionally thought over the Illuminati of "Gargoyles" myself (an intriguing organization, and I was always a little sorry that it never really got that much development in the series, and hope that if you can get the series relaunched, that could change), and have one or two thoughts on the issue.
It's obvious enough that the Illuminati can't be considered utter saints. They do have decidedly unscrupulous members in their ranks such as Xanatos and Mace Malone, they operate the Hotel Cabal, they receive money from organized crime through blackmail(as revealed by Matt in "Revelations"), they helped Castaway set up the Quarrymen. Duval himself has undergone some sort of physical cost from the Grail for the Society's actions, indicating that what the Illuminati do can't be right from the Holy Grail's perspective.
But at the same time, we don't know, as yet, the full story behind the Illuminati. We don't know how characteristic of them such methods as the Hotel Cabal or the Quarrymen are; for all that we know, such underhand schemes may represent only a small percentage of the Illuminati's activities, and the bulk of them might be of a different nature. We don't know what its present goals are; it's entirely possible that the Society still follows Duval's original goal for it of "making things right".
The picture of the Illuminati that we have from the series (primarily "Revelations", the only episode that deals much with the Illuminati's present-day activities) isn't all that favorable to it. On the other hand, if all that we knew of Goliath and his clan was that they were strange bat-winged creatures that only came out at night, were fierce warriors, and delivered a raid on Cyberbiotics, we could find it all too easy to view them as dangerous monsters. Is it possible that we may be judging the Illuminati the way that the frightened humans in New York in "Hunter's Moon" and "The Journey" judged the gargoyles? Maybe our gut reactions to them are the correct ones, but we don't know for certain as yet.
All things are true.
did you know in your clips did it come from some other episodes like the one where brooklyn is killed how did he get killed?
Huh?
Lighthouse in the Sea of Time:
As with all eps I saw this one with Greek dubbing - but in this ep there was something both unique and interesting/funny... I got reminded of it when in the memo you described the problem with the language of the scroll...
The thing is that though the entire ep was (as normal) dubbed in Modern Greek, when Macbeth starts reading the scroll he switches into *Ancient* Greek. At that time I had thought the original had Macbeth reading in Middle or atleast Elizabethan English, or some other kind of archaic-sounding language, which the translators simply rendered as ancient Greek. Only later did I realise that it was solely the translator's doing, with no corresponding change of language in the original...
It was a very nice touch, I think, and praiseworthy - it atones (atleast in part) for a couple horrendous mistakes in the dubbing of other eps... :-) But ofcourse that doesn't mean there wasn't any problem with it. Ancient Greek is far closer to Modern Greek, than Celtic is to English; nonetheless it's far enough that the first time I got only a very general sense out of the words, that Merlin was describing his first impression of Arthur... :-)
The phrasing of the scroll is subtle, but it does have an older sound to it. Certainly not middle english, but it does sound more archaic, so your translators weren't getting their ideas from no where. Still, it's weird to me that you've only heard dubbed versions. You don't know how great our voice cast was. Was yours good?
THE MIRROR!
Yeah, this one is totally one of my favorites.
On Brooklyn's line about A Midsummer Night's Dream, you said, "I hope we sent a few people to the library with that line." As I've mentioned, I was storming the library the next day.
Elisa's reaction to being changed into a gargoyle kind of didn't work for me. Sure, everyone *else* thinks the guys are monsters, but she's supposed to know better. But when she sees the New Yorkers as humans... as they normally are... she goes, "Everyone's been turned into a... a human!" As if being the "other" is something horrible. You might say that their transformation is what she was disturbed about, but she was happy about Goliath's "transformation". It's as if she thought that if the clan were the same as everyone else, that that would make everything better.
BTW a couple times you've said "suspend belief" or something like that. Are you quoting S.T. Coleridge? Shouldn't it be suspension of DISbelief?
Oh, about Elisa's disappearing jacket... There's a part in Grief where the camera pans back and shows our heroes standing ready to fight and... Elisa's not wearing the jacket. Just her short-sleeved black shirt. In the next shot, the jacket's back. Anasatis (my best friend) and I have a running gag about that. Whenever something mysteriously disappears in any cartoon, movie or whatever, we say that it's made out of Elisa's jacket. Hehe. "Wasn't that guy just holding a briefcase?" "It must be made of Elisa's jacket."
New subject: I was hoping you'd see the bearded gargoyle lady this time. I'm surprised your kids didn't pick up on it. Kids don't miss anything. *shakes head* She's there, I'm telling you!!!! Right after Demona says, "Is it done?" and Puck sighs, "Yes." Okay, I'll drop it.
Romantic stuff: Goliath thought he was being so sweet, promising to always catch Elisa when she falls, only in the next minute to have to be caught by her. But it's sweet in reverse too.
It surprised me at the time for Broadway to be the one talking about finding love. But it seems perfect now.
The very end exchange with G and E always gets me. Goliath trying to talk things out and Elisa dodging the conversation. The wind was a nice effect.
Sigh. I love this ep. Well, thank you for reading!!
Wait, one more thing... your wife's name is Beth. Was *Derek* Maza named after anyone?
Suspending Belief. Suspending Disbelief. I'm not specifically quoting anyone. I've heard it both ways. I've never been able to figure out which is right. What did Coleridge say? Educate me, please!!
As to Derek's name: Not that I know of, but you might ask the Reaves or Steve Perry.
Hi Greg,
A belated personal reaction to THE MIRROR. In the past, you've seemed curious as to how things came off to us. Did we get the implication here, or did we correctly interpret there. Well, here's something that really threw me initially. When Goliath describes the Third Race, he uses a lot of different nouns and adjectives. At first, I thought this new "Third Race" was going to be a contrived method of stuffing all other creatures of myth and fantasy into the series, in addition to the gargoyles, without having to give each one a unique background and history. In this way, you could bring in a unicorn, a minatour, an elf or an ogre, and you wouldn't have to justify them existing as individual species like the gargs, because they're conveniently blanket-labelled as the "Third Race." In short, I thought Goliath was describing a people more akin to the New Olympians, a collective, rather than a coherent species. Elisa's response was most responsible for cementing my conclusion, when she said, "Shapeshifters, elves, fairies, you mean they're real?" It sounds a lot like Elisa's interpretation of Goliath's speech was the same as mine.
As you could imagine, I felt quite betrayed and outraged. To forge such a unique, well-shaped universe and then just lazilly toss in everything else as if you said, "Well, on second thought..."
This wasn't the case, and the Third Race wound up being a wonderful addition to the series. But it took me a while to realize that. :)
On the other hand, it kinda was the case... We just executed it better than you thought we would.
Let me reiterate, you are a cool dude.
I too enjoyed the X-men movie. I thought most of your observations were pretty accurate, although I liked Summers, and disliked Storm.
I smiled at the inclusion of Gyrich and was glad it was there.
Personally, I really enjoyed seeing the opinions of people who weren't familliar with the franchise.
Kay.
Comments on Lighthouse:
First of all, I thought this episode was irritatingly heavy-handed, but didn't mind because it was such a good message, and slick in it's presentation.
I'm afraid the opening sequence didn't come off nearly as well as you wanted it to.
I was very confused about Macbeth sealing the scrolls.
I liked Robbins, and was irritated that we didn't see more of him in later episodes.
But by far my biggest complaint regarding this episode was how Macbeth dismissed the scrolls as being worthless after realizing what they were. A learned man, especially one as cool as Macbeth, I would expect to value the lost journals of Merlin far more than Broadway.
Despite all my complaints, this was an enjoyable halfhour of television, and merely illustrates how high you and your team set the bar of excellence for yourself.
Oh, and I never made the Gilly--Gilgamesh connection. Neat.
You are cool dude, dude.
Wow. Sorry you felt it was "irritatingly heavy-handed". I don't agree of course. But I'm glad you liked it anyway...
Ramble on "The Mirror"
I've always had a thing about fae and I was bouncing up and down in my seat when you introduced them to the series. I also liked the fact that you used not only the "be careful what you wish for" but also "a fae is going to find the loophole if you leave it" and "if you piss a fae off they'll be sure to make you miserable". Demona should have done more research. But then she probably assumed that if the puny human Xanatos could control the Puck, she could too.
Moments I love: All of Puck's lines.
"Three races?"
"You know, Gargoyles, humans, and Oberon's Children."
"I thought everybody knew that."
Goliath's hand on his face moaning "No, no, no."
Broadway drumming his fingers on the floor after the Trio has crashed in the subway.
I also liked your observation in the first memo about guys being fundamentally stupid about romance. And the tender moment between Goliath and Elisa before Puck tears them apart works much better without dialouge.
I didn't realize the first time watching that Demona knew about the Owen/Puck and Xanatos connection. Looking back, the foreshadowing is hidden by Puck replying "Serving humans is fun. They have a sense of humor." It makes the situation they're refering to sound more like something Puck has done in the past, rather than a current situation.
Yep. That was the plan. We're tricky too.
Ramble on "Lighthouse".
This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. The quote from the end is on the front page of my website. It sums up exactly how I feel about books and writing. It also shows the "magic" inherent in reading, a much better way to presuade people to learn how to read than telling them that they should. And Greg, I think you've gained that immortality.
I wish Robbins had come back as a character, he was great. And I loved that his dog was named Gilgamesh--even if she was girl.
The opening of the cave: I thought the harp was magic. Merlin was a magician, he could have owned magical artifacts. But the spell part of the scene worked for me, the energy version of an old man was definately seeing if these two fit the terms. The hestitation seemed more like an "oh wow" moment than a "stop and consider". I mean this is MERLIN's stuff. A way big deal.
I understood that Macbeth was reading what Merlin had written. Who were these people who didn't, the supposed target audience? (That's a dig at the age groups cartoons are "supposed" to be for). <G>
I agree with Erin that you didn't know what to make of Macbeth the first time watching this episode. But that just made him much more cool.
What happened to the lyre? A traveling exhibit of Merlin's stuff, complete with the translation of the Scrolls of Merlin (the ones by Merlin, not Robbins)? There was a lot of stuff in the cave.
Yeah. We'd have explored that in Pendragon. The stuff. The lyre. Etc.
And thanks for that immortality thing. Appreciate it.
LIGHTHOUSE IN THE SEA OF TIME
This is a good ep with a message that had the potential to be quite preachy. I'm glad you guys avoided that for the most part (I'll get to that later).
Yeah, Macbeth as the villain was pretty much tipped off at the beginning. It indeed would have been better if we had suspected Xanatos as the villain all through Act I. At least we got some dramatic irony out of the situation.
Anyway, Macbeth is always a good villain--and you just can't beat his first appearance here. The "Macbeth Theme" comes up in the background (and I love it, too), the lightening flashes, and Macbeth walks towards the screen. You'd have to go a long way to beat that. And I did associate that "Electricity Gun" (as I called it) with Macbeth (he and his flunkies were the only one's who used it).
Actually, Banquo and Fleance were pretty good too, as far as henchmen go. They had their own personalities and B.J. Ward and Frank Welker did good work with their voices. And yes, I have to smile when B.J. Ward talks to herself in the ep.
Animation-wise, I don't suppose it was too bad. *I* thought Elisa looked cute with the red cap. Though how she managed to yank it off without pulling out her hair (since she put it through the hole in the back) is beyond me.
I noticed that Goliath visited the Eyrie building and confronted Owen again (only this time with Brooklyn and Lex in tow), but it works for me.
Robbins...a great addition. Paul Winfield (that is his name, right?) did a great job on his voice (you were going to shoot for Ray Charles?), and his lines were very well written. I find his exchange with Hudson about the phonebook and his final monologue to be some of the best lines in the series.
The opening prologue with the archeologists (after looking at the credits for so long, I knew they were named after your writers and staff) serves it's purpose. The lyre's role is fairly easily deduced, and the full import of the spell on the chest becomes apparent in later viewings. But I agree it would have played better as you described it.
The Scrolls themselves presented a wonderful "Left-turn in the last Act" so to speak. I was quite surprised myself that they turned out to be a diary, and I have to agree that Merlin's Journal would indeed be priceless. I was pleased at the revelation.
I did think along with everyone else that Macbeth had sealed the Scrolls himself. Maybe knowing so little about Macbeth would make us latch onto anything that could even be remotely considered a clue. In later viewings I understood it, though.
On the moral itself...like I said, I felt it was very well done. I didn't find Goliath's mentioning the "library downstairs [being] full of books about [Merlin]" to sound like those Public Service announcements at all. Maybe it's because I don't pay any attention to them or because it just sounded like something Goliath would say (I mean, he loves reading). And I love how Hudson's illiteracy is revealed and handled. I felt it was quite moving. And Macbeth's speech about Arthur was good too. However, Broadway's growth is where I enter into a more grey area. I felt it worked quite well for the most part, especially his line "When your life is this exciting, who needs books?". However, his last speech...I suppose it isn't so bad, but it did seem a little thick with his expression "They take you there". It is true, and probably the best thing to say, but I just can't get into it. Maybe I'm just too used to reading to be able to fully empathize with Broadway's sense of wonderment.
Still, an ep I enjoy wathing. I just wonder how Broadway was able to rip open the hull of the harrier without any noise.
Uh... maybe he did it as the planes were landing. Yeah. That's the ticket.
Just read your ramble on "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", and here are my thoughts on that episode.
It will come as no surprise to those who know me well that this is one of my favorite episodes in "Gargoyles", and I don't even need to say why this is. :) In fact, one of the things that I really like about it is the way that it handled Merlin and the Arthurian legend. As I've mentioned before, lots of animated series do an Arthurian episode at some point, and particularly do so by including Merlin somewhere in it. But "Gargoyles" handled Merlin as more than just "some stupid magician", to quote Broadway. It focused on him, not as just a medieval wizard, but as King Arthur's mentor figure who guided him in the creation of Camelot. This particularly made itself plain not just in Macbeth's speech, but even in the fact that the precise part of the Scrolls that we hear Macbeth read deals with Merlin first meeting the young Arthur, presumably to take him on as his pupil. (And, given that this episode did include some teaching functions in the process, as in teaching Hudson and Broadway that reading is a worthwhile pursuit, I found that appropriate).
Indeed, that was precisely what I liked about "Gargoyles" handling Arthurian legend (and legends in general); it did so in a very intelligent and literate fashion, getting into "What is the significance of this story for us? Why does it still endure in our hearts after all these years?" This, combined with your comments here on Arthur and Co., make me certainly hope that you can either get to do "Pendragon" some day, or if Disney never agrees to that, create some other Arthurian series (as you've mentioned having hopes of doing).
One amusing side-note about this episode: I'd earlier read an article about what was in store for Season Two of "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine that mentioned that time travel would be a part of the season. So when I saw the title, I got the notion from the "Time" part of it that this would be the episode involving it, and that the Scrolls of Merlin would be the means for it. Turns out that I was wrong and that that element wouldn't show up until "Vows" - but I wasn't disappointed.
(I might add that I was certainly not disappointed by the revelation of the Scrolls' true nature, unlike Macbeth - if anything, that made them more exciting to me. An eyewitness account of Arthur's times, written by Merlin himself! Now that's a real treasure! Hudson and Broadway were right to urge Goliath not to burn the Scrolls! And I certainly can't help but imagine the boon that they'd be to Arthurian scholarship).
Macbeth's speech on Arthur and Merlin was not only a very beautiful one, but also helped illustrate his character a bit more and the fact that he had heroic qualities under his villain role. After all, he stressed with such admiration Arthur's ruling "with justice and compassion", something that only a man with some nobility in him could find a positive interest in. Even though he engaged in theft and planning to use Broadway for a guinea-pig, he still came across as not so bad a chap in some ways.
I agree with you that Goliath's bit about "books on Merlin in the library" does have something of a public service announcement, although I don't mind that. (I was initially puzzled as to what books on a legendary wizard would be doing in a police station, until I later on learned that the library that Goliath was talking about was next door to the station rather than part of it). I liked Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave" myself, and thought it a bit of a pity that you couldn't have Goliath cite it, although I can understand why it didn't get in. (Interestingly enough, the book was first published in 1970, so it would be having its 25th anniversary the same year that "Lighthouse" first aired).
And I also appreciate the differing angles of Hudson and Broadway's illiteracy; Broadway illiterate and not seeing why that should be so bad a thing, while Hudson is ashamed of his illiteracy and hides it. That was another lovely touch, IMHO.
Thanks. This episode was important to all involved. We intentionally used the "literary" character of Macbeth as our villain, and made "the teacher" Merlin, the subject of the chase. Anything we could do to get kids to read, frankly.
Response to A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time
This is one of the few episodes I managed to record. I envy those who have the entire series, but I watch the ones I do have over breakfast all the time. (Have you ever noticed how there's never anything on in the morning?) It seemed to me that Lighthouse and Deadly Force played most often when Gargoyles was in reruns. Maybe that's my imagination, but it seems I groaned whenever this ep was on. Initially, I think the animation was a turn off for me. But seeing it many, many times during my gargoyles breakfasts made me realize the value and indeed, quality of this ep and now, ironically, it's one of my very favorites.
I liked how you dealt with the different reasons Broadway and Hudson had for not learning to read and how they paralleled the reasons given by teenagers and adults, respectively. Also, I thought it was responsible of you to refrain from mudslinging TV and other visual media. Like you've said before, a lot of good can come from other mediums, but shouldn't take the place of reading. Many people get preoccupied with bashing TV, saying it's the root of the evil in our kids today, etc. There is a lot of junk around, but there's a lot that isn't as well. Saying that TV is evil and glorifying reading doesn't accomplish much. A good balance between the two (and others) is what people should go for.
Jeffrey Robbins: I love this guy! I wish he were real so I could talk with him. Of course, the whole behind-the-scenes revelation that he was originally going to be a famous author and Arthurian expert makes me all the more thankful that he wasn't. Many times, the characters of shows are the BEST at something or the WORLD'S GREATEST this or that. It's important to remember that average people, doing something special like writing, can be interesting too. It gives kids a different place to look for heroes other than athletes and musicians.
Elisa: From Guinevere to a baseball cap? Care to elaborate? Since we've all only seen the episode that made it to the screen (of course) we have no idea why you were going to have Elisa dress like Guinevere. But hey, better that than the hat. It was totally impractical for the windy ship (even now, I keep expecting it to blow off in the wind) and it looked ridiculous on her. It's silly, but I smile when she throws it down in the alley in frustration. The hat's dead.
Broadway: I can't think of anyone who has matured as widely as Broadway. First he learns the terribly hard way to respect guns, and now he's back being ignorant again (about literacy this time), but he LEARNS. I love how he (Bill) whispers "But you describe it like you were there..." He says something similar to this in another episode. I can't remember the name or what happened in the rest of it, but Elisa helps him with a word he's struggling with without her having looked at the magazine and he pipes up, "Were you there?" But anyway, he's beginning to understand the importance of reading. By the time he's chained up in MacBeth's house, he's had time to think about it and desperately stops Goliath from endangering the scrolls (which Goliath had done in an attempt to save *Broadway*). I really thought his line was cheesy, though. "When you read them, they take you there..." Maybe not the line so much, but how he looked off into space and his voice got all mystical and mysterious... ah well, beautiful though.
Thank you so much for this episode and for taking the time to share your thoughts with us!
I was never going to have Elisa dress like Guinevere. That was coming from the Reaves. They considered making Arthurana fadish in the wake of the scrolls coming to NYC. But I didn't buy it.
Cheezy or beautiful... I guess it can be both.
This is a sort of rambling about gargoyles in general which I finally remembered to submit.
One thing that I have to hand to "Gargoyles" is that it really did change the way I viewed gargoyles. Before the series came out and I started watching it, I'd always taken it for granted, whenever I thought of "living gargoyles" in a fantasy context, to imagine them as the "bad guys", given that almost every fantasy book, game, television program, or what-not out there portrayed living gargoyles as evil. (Particularly fantasy role-playing games). I wasn't even aware of gargoyles being placed on medieval cathedrals and castles to protect them from evil.
Then I watched the series, and was actually presented with the notion of "gargoyles as 'good guys'". I became interested enough in real-world gargoyles, as a result of the series, to read up on them and discover that indeed, their original function was as protectors. And since then, I've found my own attitude towards gargoyles to be more positive - in particular, I like looking out for architectural gargoyles wherever I can. (I've actually come across metal ones as a part of old-fashioned street lamps in my neighborhood). It's become almost hard for me to realize that I used to see gargoyles as I did before the series came out. (At the same time, though, those memories of how I used to view gargoyles make it all the more understandable for me why so many humans in the Gargoyles Universe would hate and fear gargoyles - which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement on the series' part of the modern-day angle on gargoyles, although the gargs are based ultimately more on the original medieval concept of them).
Just thought that you might find these comments interesting.
Very. I had the benefit of knowing the "legend" so to speak, more or less from the time that the idea of Gargoyles was introduced to me. But we were actually counting on our audience needing a perspective twist. In fact, one of the little sad things is we can't ever do it again really. Now you all know.
This is a sort of addendum to my "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" response, since there were a couple of things in it that I'd meant to say but forgot about at the time.
One little touch that I always liked in this one was the brief scenelets with Bronx - first, when Lexington is yanking a magazine out from underneath him with great difficulty, and then when Hudson calls him, and Bronx jumps up, bounds over to Hudson's armchair, and lies down beside it again.
I don't recall having any problems over misinterpreting the "sealed by my own hand" part, but it is interesting to note that the closed captioning that I saw on my taped copy put Macbeth reading the Scrolls' inscription within quotation marks, indicating that they did recognize that he was reading the writing and that it was Merlin who'd sealed the Scrolls. (I just thought that I'd cite a case where the folks in charge of the closed captioning correctly interpreted something).
I was a bit surprised by your account that the lyre's music was caused by the wind blowing through it; I'd always assumed that it was playing by itself through some sort of magic (particularly given the way that it was shimmering). Thanks for clearing up the account of the visit to Merlin's cave.
(And, regarding Merlin's inscription on the chest, one reflection that I had about it was that the Scrolls truly would be valuable only to the "seeker after knowledge" and not to the "destroyer", as Macbeth found out at the end when he actually read them).
Yep.
I liked that bit about Bronx's special rappor with Hudson too.
just reading your lighthouse ramble
I was myself surprsied, and continue to be, at the same moment your daughter was, being the scene where Macbeth says he will test Merlin's magic on Broadway. It felt out of character. Even disregarding what we were to later know of him, up to this point he doesn't seem to be the same type of ruthless villain as Demona or Xanatos. He has already gained that grey shading of character and it is hard to get a handle on his exact motives, but it felt to me he was already established to be very interested in concepts of honor and wouldn't stoop to such actions as using a sentient being as a lab rat, especially after he'd given his word. It's not honorable.
After later episodes and more background is given on him, his behavior in this episode just feels even more out of character. It becomes established that he is a man of deep honor, and while he doesn't act altruistically, like the gargoyles, he doesn't act nefariously either. He acts in his own best interests, but within limits. His saying he'd test Merlin's magic on Broadway is teh equivalent of Xanatos about to test the Cauldron of Life on Hudson, but this just doesn't feel right in my understanding of Macbeth. Such an action is a depth I don't see him willing to take, no matter what his ends are.
I'm also reading your memo and getting uncomfortable about the term "villain" being used in regards to Macbeth as a description and as an explanation for his motives and actions in this episode. I guess it was always my own personal taste and regard for the character that I never once saw him in that light; I always saw him as distinguishly neutral.
I can understand when you say this type of confusion is exactly what you wanted, but sometimes I don't see it as much a story type of confusion, where we just don't know him yet and are trying to figure this guy out, but more as a consistency confusion, where his character in other places is inconsistent with his character here.
Just a few of my ideas. And I love being able to get this much discussion and difference of opinion out of a t.v. show.
Here's hoping to seeing you in Orlando.
8-)
The fact that Macbeth said it doesn't mean he'd have actually gone through with it. But he might have. I think you underestimate how far the guy had fallen. He didn't start to climb out of his hole of depression until Sanctuary at least...
I don't think he's inconsistent here. This is only his second appearance, and he's been fairly nasty up to this point. The fact that we see touches of something better doesn't forgive or make impossible the nastiness. He is a bit of a hypocrite, after all. And I think you're basing your assumption on what you'd like him to be, based on the total picture of him, rather than on how he behaved in his first two appearances.
But that's just my opinion.
Hi Greg,
As I read the latest set of responses, I became inspired to share something. My grandmother was over one evening for dinner, and I was transfering Awakening 1-5 from one tape to another. Thus, it was playing downstairs. Well, my grandma sat down there for about the whole evening, talking with my dad and such. Now, some info on my grandma (since it's painfully obvious where this is heading): She's almost 80. It would be an understatement to call her a devout Catholic. She thought "Sister Act" was unwholesome. So, I was scared the whole evening that she'd eventually get to asking what show was playing. Instead, she came upstairs at the end of the evening commenting, in that 'stamp of approval' kind of way, that "that show" was really good. I mean, she honestly seemed damned taken with it.
That's nice. Bring her to The Gathering.
In an earlier post, you said Gargoyles airs after 10 pm. However in my time zone it airs at 9:00 pm so your argument about the time it aired was invalid.
O.K. But that was just one of many arguments. (And 9pm is still after the so-called "family hour.)
Not a question, but I thought you might appreciate an anecdote: The JSU at Columbia University sponsers a visit by a professional storyteller once a year. The first year the guest speaker was Penina Shram and she spent some time focused on trickster myths from around the world. She was taken aback by the small but vocal group in front that ~happened~ to know of every one she mentioned. Gargoyles was in the middle of the World tour at the time.
cool... But how come I wasn't invited? :)
Rambling about Legion.
Between Gargoyles and Highlander, the Silver Cup is on my list of places to see if I ever get to New York.
The backstory between Goliath, Othello, Desdemona and Iago was clear enough for the purposes of the episode. But vague enough to warrent an episode or a sub-plot in "Dark Ages." Iago strikes me as a bit like Xanatos, suave and charming when you first meet him but then you find out what he's really up to.
I realized that more than one person had to be inside Coldstone when he started going bonkers at Ellis Island. Though I believe my initial reaction was "he's possessed!", coming from the Bibical quote I believe. Much more cool to actually make the multiple personalties a part of Coldstone's creation. I didn't realize how much damage the computer virus was doing until I read your memo. So I guess sorcery is the reason Iago's soul/personality is still around in High Noon?
I like the idea that "subconsciously Demona knows her man." Her attacks on Elisa are tinged with so much jealousy, it's surprising her eyes don't light up green instead of red. <G>
I like that.
First a question, then a brief ramble...
Question: To your knowledge, were there ever any Rocky Horror Show jokes at Tim Currey's expense while he was recording Dr. Servarius? You know, him doing the whole mad scientist bit and all.
Ramble: I don't post here often, but I read what's here all the time. I hope the appearance of some treatise sized responces to your episode rambles illustrates to you how successful Gargoyles really was. Despite lackluster ratings, the people you reached, you reached deeply. Speaking as a writer myself, I think that's about the best we can hope to do.
Joel Hodgeson (creator of Mystery Science Theater 3000) was once asked if he ever worried that people wouldn't get some of the more obscure jokes/references he put in the show. He answered that it didn't worry him because the RIGHT people would get it. I think that sums it up nicely.
Answer: I don't remember.
Thanks for the kind words. I agree whole-heartedly.
But FYI, we didn't have lackluster ratings our first two years. They were solid, strong ratings. They just didn't beat Power Ranger's ratings.
I've just recently gotten into Gargoyles and love it so far, especially Demona. I have to say that I really feel sorry for the way she's been treated by humans in the past and it explains her behaviour when she meets Goliath again.
I loved the animation, even 'Enter Macbeth' wasn't that bad (the storyline compensates for the animation I suppose).
I'd have to say that the overall concept (good monsters fighting evil) was aimed at kids. But the individul
episodes, plots and storylines (including Shakespeare characters and plays) attracted an older audience.
I love the idea of the interspecies romance between Elisa and Goliath. It brings the two races together. This also probably attracted an older audience. If gargoyles was ever revived on television again, would you consider putting it on a channel that more adults watched? It might help the ratings of the show.
I was disappointed to learn that the I was watching re-runs of the show.
I can't wait to see the movie and I'm sure it will encourage Disney to revive the show again.
I'd put the show on whatever channel would take it, frankly.
A few days ago I took out my store-bought copy of "Gargoyles, The Movie," which is the first five episodes without commercials. I was trying to remember why I hadn't watched it in a while. That question was immediately answered once I started watching it.
There are certain details in the movie--background music, sound effects, scene editing--that are either off or just plain wrong. The sound of Goliath crushing Elisa's gun, the arrows flying through the air during the Viking battle, the metallic sounds of the Steel Clan opening their wings and firing their cannons--they are all different, and they drive me crazy!! Then there's the background music, which either starts too late or is completely wrong for that particular scene. But the most excrutiatingly obnoxious error of all is the sound of the gargoyles gliding--it's this high-pitched swooping noise, like a mechanical glider, or something, I don't know what exactly, but it's NOT RIGHT!! {Loud scream of frustration!!!!!!!}
I know, I know, these are fussy nitpicks, but the little details really do effect the quality of the program. I'm a diehard Gargoyles fan who's seen these episodes dozens of times, so hearing a difference makes me cringe. So yeah, what's the point of this post? To ramble, to complain, and to ask if anyone else (yourself included) had noticed and were annoyed by the changes made in "Gargoyles, The Movie."
Thanks for letting me rant. And vent. I feel better now.
Sigh. I'm glad you feel better, but I'm annoyed.
They are NEITHER OFF NOR WRONG, they are simply DIFFERENT from what you've grown used to. They were mixed simultaneously with the five pilot episodes. NOT AFTER. And the people who mixed those pilot episodes went on to mix the rest of the series' episodes, so the style they used became ingrained.
And again, if you heard the movie version played the way it was designed to be played -- that is with giant SPEAKERS and on a big screen theater, you'd see that the effects work quite well. Still different, but well. They weren't designed for home video.
NOW CAN WE PUT THIS QUESTION TO BED. CHECK THE ARCHIVES PLEASE.
Dear Greg,
Just read your Legion ramble...and I have to say this:
At the time when I first saw that Episode, I knew that Iago was trying to indicate that Goliath was betraying Othello with Desdemona, but I didn't understand why the credits listed the characters with such names. Boy was I naive.
A couple years later I was taking a Shakespeare class and read Othello. Can you imagine, about Act 2 somewhere we're reading it outloud and all of a sudden I say outloud: OH I GET IT. My friends thought I was insane. I had to give a quick explination for my outburst, which didn't help much to prove my sanity (none of them had watched Gargoyles).
Since reading the play Othello has become my favorite of the Shakespearian Tragedies (though I admit I have to read several more) And the Love "Pentagram" has become a delightful flavoring to the show.
I say Pentagram because I do believe that Demona would have been caught up in the whole mess. Especially given that Iago likens so well to the Shakespearian version. If he's going to ruin Goliath (and Othello as well) Then "In for a penny, in for a pound" Demona would have to go too. And probably the whole clan (including Hudson) probably would have been at Odds with Goliath thanks to Iago's whispering.
Which leads me to my first question:
1. Did the incident between Othello, Desdemona, Iago and Goliath occur before or after Goliath became leader to the clan? I ask because it strikes me that if after, Iago would not only try to win Desdemona, but Leadership as well.
2. Since Demona collected pieces of the shattered Iago to create Coldstone, we know he was banish from the clan. So what punishment was set upon Iago for causing such a clash between rookery brothers.
3. For that matter, would anyone have truely realized what Iago was doing, that he was responsible for it?
4. In City of Stone's flashback, we see Demona almost warning Othello and Desdemona about the upcoming attack. In one way, these two were used so that it wouldn't be just random gargs...But given the idea that Demona would have gotten tied up in the whole love scandal, it would seem Demona wouldn't exactly like Desdemona (even if the whole thing proved false; she's got trouble forgiving people) So why, in a character sense would Demona have gone to these two?
Well, I'm sure I had more questions along this topic, but I can't think of them after all that typing, so I'll let you get on with the other questions.
"So will I turn her virtue into pitch; and out of her own goodness make a net that shall emesh them all." -Iago (my fav quote from the play)
1. After.
2. He was banished for a time.
3. Eventually.
4. Well, first off because they were there. Also, back then, Desdemona was the closest thing Demona had to a sister. Once everything was resolved there was less hostility there then you are imagining... however, perhaps all that history DID play some >small< role in why she DIDN'T warn them.
Good quote.
Greg,
I hope you remember me and my son. We were at 1999 Gathering (Jack was the little boy dressed as Goliath in the costume contest). Anyway, we cannot attend the Orlando Gathering this year (despite having airline tickets) as I must go to SE Asia for business. Anyway....some updates for you as well as a question or 2
1 -In Japan, Gargoyles memorabilia is quite popular. I have been in Japan quite a few times and Jack has brought some of his Gargoyle figures etc;. AS we interact with more kids, they cling to the show. Of course, translating this into Japanese is time consuming...some of the references and history is impossible for me to adequately translate. But here is the point. With Pokemon and Dragonball Z very much the norm, the kids were taken by the STORIES, not just random colors flying by the TV. The kids have been asking questions about the Clan, and I am trying my darndest to aid them.
2 - As part of my business, Disney is a client. In June, we were on holiday and met up with a mid-level person from the main digs. We had dinner with our family (2 kids on my side, 1 on his) and our spouses. Anyway, trying to be polite, he asked my kids their thoughts on cartoons and the like. Jack is strange in that he is more retro than anything else. He is into Tetsujin 28 (Gigantor in the US) and Gargoyles. So this gentleman was given the perspective of a 7 year old that likes Gargoyles. As a Dad, the proudest moment was when the guy asked...Why is/was Gargoyles so special. (Actually Jack's answer made me proud, not the question) Jack's answer was a mix of normal 7 year old ramblings ("because I was at the Gathering in 1999 and will (as noted above we now must change 2000) also in 2000", "because I have so many toys from the series"), but the kicker was when he said.....because I could use my imagination....this from a 7-year old!. He gets it....if only Disney would.
3 - As I mentioned to you in Dallas, Carl Johnson lives very close to my US residence. He burned a CD of numerous Gargoyle tunes............ - real cool. Upon our return, we were going to bring down to the Gathering a full set of the Gargoyle music from Carl, but now this must wait until 2001. I promised to give him some Gargoyle items for his studio from Jack's collection.....He has a huge photo of the Gargoyles now.
4- lastly.... when we met you in Dallas, my son was overwhelmed. He is a true Gargoyles fan and he was very happy to attend. You and Thom Adcox were very gracious to him when you had a few minutes to spare. No one was around, just Thom and yourself and you made the day of a little boy. For that I am grateful. The true measure of character is doing something (the right thing) when nobody else is around to see it!
I hope the series comes back soon. I have seen many postings from the ASK GREG archives and my feelings are I would not change any of the 66 episodes you created..... except maybe wish there were at least 66 more.
If there is any additional insight on how we can aid your efforts to get the series back, I/we are open to suggestions. We have written to numerous Disney executives to seeming no avail.
Best of luck to you in the future. Hope to see you in 2001 at LA Gathering.
John D (aka Jack's Dad)
John & Jack,
I remember you both quite well, and I was sorry you didn't make it to this year's Gathering in Orlando. In addition to Becca Morgan, who was back, I brought my own two kids (ages 6 & 3) and they all had a great time.
Next year in L.A. for sure though -- because in answer to your last question, there isn't a single thing that you could do that would help the cause more than attending that con with Jack and with as many of Jack's friends, parents, etc, as you can. Having KIDS there would be a TREMENDOUS help. But also just having raw numbers is absolutely essential.
Oh, and by the way, Carl has been promising to burn me one of those C.D.'s literally for years. YEARS. He burned me a Winnie the Pooh C.D., but not a gargoyles one. THe bum. :) [Just kidding, Carl.] Anyway, I plan on inviting Carl to be one of our guests at the 2001 convention in L.A.
LEGION
At the time I first saw this ep, I did not know that any play such as "Othello" existed (stupid, uncultured me, I know). I always wondered how you guys chose the two names you did in the credits. Later, after I discovered the fandom on the 'Net, I learned that the names came from the play, and I eventually picked up a (edited-Signet) copy, and bettered myself. The character of Iago utterly fascinated me in it, for his sheer malice and his ability to dupe people so thouroghly. But on with the show...
I remember finding myself quite confused by Coldstone's personality shifts. When Desdemona and Iago showed up in his eye, I thought he was remembering previous conversations. Then (being the dense person I am), I finally got the situation in Act 3 when Desdemona pretty much spells it all out (even then, the Xanatos Program's part in the drama for me took a back seat to the interplay of the souls. It was in later viewings that I fully realized it's own influence).
One thing I noticed from your outline was that Iago had been briefed on his situation by the Xanatos Program. Unfortunately, I didn't see too much of that in the finished product. That they wanted Othello to go after Goliath was apparent, and then they merged, but I hadn't realised that they had been in cahoots before Goliath even entered Cyberspace.
BTW: That is a very cool scene where Iago and Program X merge. I just wonder what exactly that accomplished. Did it make Iago that much more powerful in Coldstone's mind?
And I also love the annoyance on Desdemona's face when Goliath hugs her--it's perfect.
On the subject of animation, the two scenes you mentioned--Coldstone/Othello attacking Goliath, and Goliath getting hit with the laser--didn't bother me so much. Othello's attack on Goliath would have indeed worked better had G been in shadow, but even the way it is, Othello strikes me as very on-edge at that moment, and may have been more ready to attack first than look at his visitor. As for the laser, once again I rationalize--the laser has variable power settings, and Iago, though he may know how to work the laser hadn't taken the time to see what power level it was on. It works for me.
My gripes with animation come on a different scene. When Lex, G, and CS are flying to the Clock Tower, and Lex talks to G, the image gets flipped. Not only do the characters switch positions on-screen, but Coldstone's robotic/cannon arm has suddenly become his left. Also, I've always preferred Coldstone's eye to be black with the red iris (as opposed to the white with the red pupil here).
Once again, my density shines through with RECAP. It wasn't until the second viewing that I noticed the Scarab logo (THANK YOU for telling us why that was the logo of Xanatos' robotics stuff). I think I may have looked away from the screen then. But the tag is still pretty good. This ep, and the two eps preceeding it, are what I like to call "Xanatos' Winning Streak." True, he may not have had COMPLETE victories, but he seemed to get more than he lost (or at least seemed to feel that way).
Matt handling RECAP made sense to me, and the "six months of manuals" line seemed like a nice touch (anyone handling high-priced equipment would have to be at least that knowledgable of it). I also love his reaction when he finally tracks down the visor and finds a rat instead of a creature (oooh, he's gonna get some razzin' back at work...).
Good ep, all around. Just one final note. Clancy Brown's character in "Highlander" is called "the Kurgan"--not "Kragen." Just thought you should know.
Did I say Kragen? Sorry.
>BTW: That is a very cool scene where Iago and Program X merge. I just wonder what exactly that accomplished. Did it make Iago that much more powerful in Coldstone's mind?<
Yes.
Just read your ramble on "Legion" this morning, and my comments on it.
The thing that probably most excited and delighted me about this episode was the bit in the ending credits which named the two new gargoyles introduced in this story as "Desdemona" and "Iago". I wasn't quite certain if I actually had seen those names in the ending credits, and so I was pleased when I later on discovered Gargoyle sites on the Internet and was able to get that information confirmed. But I was pleased by the Shakespearean reference there, and saw at once the appropriateness of it.
("Iago" really does look like a gargoylized version of the way that his namesake usually gets depicted in Shakespearean art - lean, saturnine visage - although I should add that the most convincing interpretation of Iago that I've yet seen in a Shakespearean performance was by Frank Finlay when he did the character in the Laurence Olivier "Othello". Finlay's Iago, while still definitely villainous, *looked* like a bluff and honest soldier, which, to me, made his ability to dupe Othello far more convincing. It bothered me to have to imagine Othello as stupid enough to get taken in by somebody who looked as if he was about ready to sprout horns and cloven hooves any moment).
"Legion" strikes me as a story that one can better understand when you're seeing it a second time and know that there are two other gargoyles stuck inside Coldstone. The first time that I saw the initial shift from Othello in control of Coldstone to Desdemona in control of Coldstone, in the clock tower, I thought that the computer virus had simply caused some sort of short-term memory loss. When I later on saw it again, however, I understood what was really going on here, and found it very effective.
The Biblical background for "Legion" - in a couple of the Gospels, Jesus heals a man with insanity, which is treated in the story as demonic possession. Jesus asks the demon for its name and it replies, "I am Legion, for we are many." (This is the occasion where when Jesus casts out the demons, they immediately flee into a herd of swine nearby which immediately drown themselves).
Incidentally, I've sometimes found it a bit of a pity that we never saw a story where Xanatos would be putting that virus to use, which I was expecting him to do at some point in the future. Of course, if "Gargoyles" ever gets revived, maybe we will.
Yeah, I haven't forgotten the virus either.
Again, I was aware of the biblical reference. I just knew the line from that Frankenstein movie first.
And, funny thing, I just got Olivier's Othello on VHS as a gift. I haven't watched it yet. But now I'll make it a priority.
hello
i just whanted to take the time to say thank for all your eforts in make Gargoules. And allso taking the time to anser all our questions. Allso i love your rambles about the episodes. i can`t what to read the next ones.
i hope you and you famally have great lives.
Thanks. Yours too.
Comments on Metamorphosis:
What an episode! This rank on my favorites! The whole idea of having Sevarius looking different at the beginnig and at the end confused me. I didn't realized until "The Cage". Of course, I understood eveything on the reruns.
And yes I got fooled by the Sevarius's fake death, but I don't watch Gargoyles to try to guess what will happen, but to be suprised and impress. Of course that's why I've put high hopes on TGC some years back and it hurted a lot when I saw the results.
A final word, there's not always happy endings, but they make realistic and original twists. In those cases I say: "I can't wait to see the next episode where they resolve that!"
Me neither...
la la la... bored. going to comment on "Enter Macbeth".
what can I say? badass. I saw the show from day one. I was surprised by every turn of events. Elisa still having crutches made me think.... wow. show has continuity. impressive. Would Goliath lose the castle? I didn't think he would. It wouldn't follow the typical "villian of the week" shows. Fooled again I spose... Xanatos not caring about the Gargs... just happy to be home. And you can tell he was impressed with Macbeth. Of course... he never saw Macbeth in his own castle. That would've completely stunned him. Shot for shot. He went shot for shot with Goliath. I was just watching like. "oh my god, he's not just fancy gadgets man". It was here that I thought he was *the* Macbeth. Just maybe.. a possible sure he might be before. But to go blow for blow like that. Wow.
Loved Brooklyns "ow *bzstz* ow *bzstz*". Bronx running through the streets and Goliath diving down to get get him. That would've scared the hell out of me if I was in one of those cars.
I didn't like something though..... Macbeths way of weilding the sword. He seemed to me like he should've been more talented than to do an overhead charge. I mean the reflection in the sword spoke BADASS! He's gonna get some! And then... blah. But the drop down from the trench was amazingly cool.
And one other thing... Owen. I always loved him as a character. He took Hudson down! Its here you know he's definitely got more to him. Outnumbered, I saw why he drew the gun, I don't think he would've ever fired. It seemed to me like how one man can hold back a mob with one bullet and one gun. Thats why I think he drew. Of course Elisa had to go and wreck it. =( I think I routed for the villians in this show more than the heroes. I *wanted* Macbeth to win.
Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.
Only the top three? :)
No questions, just a worshipping moment...
I have said this before, long ago, but the more I watch tv nowadays, the more I feel I need to thank you for such a wonderful show that actually had a point to being made, besides mindless entertainment. It's a shame where tv has gone. Most shows for kids teach nothing. Especially Nickelodeon and the new Cartoon Network crap they keep shelling out. I believe it is the parent who needs to set examples, but unfortunatly, majority of these kids role models and such are not their parents, but bumbling idiots from tv. So with all the tv kids do watch, they should have some message in them. Gargoyles had that. As does shoes like X-Men, Spiderman, and Batman. They aren't always right on the surface for all to see, you have to dig a little deeper. In just one of your episodes you covered racisim, family values, violence, etc. It was just great! When I use to babysit, I had this one boy who loved guns, only 6 at the time. So I brought Deadly Force. What shock he was in when he saw Elisa near death. Majority of cartoon shows don't go that deep. Unfortunatly it wasn't enough to make him stop loving gun and he still thinks he's a big shot cop 4 years later, but at least for that one moment, he was concerned about guns. I love the whole racisim deal in there as well. The Hunters/Quarrymen remind me of the KKK, though nothing is said, it just took that bit of looking farther. You have these scary looking creatures who are gentle, kind, loving...just like humans. And just like humans, there are good and bad gargoyles. No one race is totally the nicest people. I wish Disney would not have started forcusing on those more cartoonish shows like Doug, Recess, Hercules, etc and focused more on a show with depth and character. A show that isn't easily forgotten and displaced. After these years without new eps of Gargoyles, my love for it has not weakened, neither has the hope that they will bring it back, in one form or another. Thank you Greg for such a wonderful show. I have a young daughter who'll be 2 in October, I plan to let her watch Gargoyles in a few years, when she understands it a little better...*sigh* Till then, I am stuck with Teletubbies. LOL! I already have her a Gargoyle t-shirt.
Thanks.
My poor kids were forced to watch Gargoyles at an early age. These days, there are nights when they are in the mood and demanding the show. Other nights when I can't get them to watch it on a bet.
I'd just like to make a quick comment about the show. Sadly, my only exposure to Gargoyles comes from Toon Disney. Consequently, I have never seen the episode where Elisa gets shot. Therefore, I appreciated your rambling on the episode.
Finally, someone else asked if you would like the chance to air a more "adult" Gargoyles on stations like HBO. I am an adult, and I love the show as it is (was). Indeed, I think the show is geared to people of all ages. The stories were intelligent and interesting. Although I admit I would like to see the original unedited version of Gargoyles, I would hate to see a change in the basic spirit of the show. Gargoyles (in my humble opinion) is not Spawn. It doesn't need (nor should it contain) the same level of violence, sex or cursing that was evident on that show. I have nothing against Spawn (heck, I watched it when I could), I just like the ... I guess ... innocence of Gargoyles. I believe that a more violent or sexually charged show would cheapen it. Although I agree that the more liberal atmosphere offered by cable would be great, I would hate to see it change the tone of the show. Or, to fall back on an old cliche, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
(So ends a ramble of my own).
I agree with you. I liked the tone. It's what we wanted to make. I'd love the freedom to be able to do something along the lines of "Deadly Force" or "Future Tense" without having to worry about S&P. But though those episodes are darker, they still -- as far as I'm concerned -- fit the overall tone of the series.
I'll admit I have a FEW ideas that are more adult in their nature. But I wouldn't want to artificially make the show more purient overall, just for the sake of being able to try out a few things to amuse myself.
ENTER MACBETH
I'm sorry to hear you guys had such trouble with keeping the continuity straight in this one. But I'm very glad you did.
It always impressed me that you guys put Elisa on crutches and didn't have her "right as rain" in the episode after she got shot.
One thing that makes me smile in this ep is Xanatos's prison cell. A rug, a nice desk with computer...even in PRISON this guy lives better than the people around him. I love his line, too, when he's in the cafeteria: "Just like mom used to make--when mom was a prison cook." Xanatos calls it a "learning experience." What did he learn--not to get caught again? ;-)
And Macbeth, WOW! I didn't really know it was John Rhys-Davis doing the voice at the time (I just wondered who the Sean Connery sound-a-like was), but everything about him was arresting. The way he held his own against Goliath, his connection with Demona (I was totally floored when he said he had named her), and his overall style was just wonderful.
I also liked the fact that the gargoyles DID have to leave the castle. It didn't surprise me as much because I had already figured they had no choice. A castle is just not so easily won anymore. However, I didn't know that it was a Clocktower to which they were moving--I thought it was Elisa's home. Silly me.
Yeah, I noticed the use of repeated dialogue--easily ignorable for me in Elisa's case, but not so much with Lex and Brooklyn. And the animation does have areas I don't particularly care for, but with this good of a story it doesn't really matter.
Goliath's appearance on the street is pretty impressive, but a lot of us still tend to wonder how so many people seeing him still put "living gargoyles" as an urban myth. I guess the ol' ignore-'em/publicity-stunt mentality is pretty strong, eh?
I always enjoy Brooklyn and Lexington's banter when they're in the cage. Brooklyn constantly touching the cage and giving out a dead-pan "Ouch" is always amusing. Then there's the part where Goliath lets out a roar while in Macbeth's house and Lex just says in a subdued voice "Bronx must've found Goliath" with only Brooklyn's equally-subdued "Yeah" as a response. I LOVE that part.
Goliath laughing maniacally--so in addition to inheiriting Goliath's temper, Thailog also inherited his laugh. At least we now know the answer to Hudson's question in DOUBLE JEOPARDY. Actually, I kind of like it that the hero gave a maniacal laugh. The gargs still have that edge here.
And how about Owen? I still think it kicks @$$ that he took down Hudson and pulled a gun on Broadway in trying to protect the Grimorum. Shame he didn't keep an eye on the injured party, though. Still he demonstrates once again why he's head and shoulders above all "villain sidekicks."
Yeah, even without Puck, Owen is the coolest. But who else would you expect Xanatos to have working for him?
Enter MacBeth and Deadly force:
I thought the Animation in Enter MacBteh wasn't half bad. I thought the expression on MacBeth's face when he see's Bronx escape [He pulls his his towards his chest and his teeth go in a figure 8] was funny. I also liked the Goliath expression on his face when he said: "How dare you!"
Also, the stained glass of Demona and MacBeth: Great forshadowing. the sword part... now that just looked cool.
the one part I though was stupid was when Goliath smashed the brick wall. You could see the outline of the hole he was ABOUT to smash! seesh.
I knew something was up between Demona and MacBeth when I saw the glass. But it became way more clear when he said, "I want your queen." Still, I loved MacBeth's Character. I still do.
Deadly Force: When Broadway is flying out of the woods, he goes up, the trees go down and the city comes up. I though that was very cool. When Dracon laughs at stealing the guns, it's a comical laugh. It just looks funny. Go figure.
Derek seems like a no nonsense guy here... Ma Maza asks about calling up Sister Maza from Arizona... Derek says "Don't talk like that." [Or something to that effect.] Right then I knew that he was a tough guy, and would later have a bigger role.
What else? Nothing I guess. Most of what I liked contradicts what you like... but nobody's perfect.
Thanks!
You're welcome.
ENTER MACBETH
A series like "Gargoyles" is build (in my opinion) on the strength of its villians, and Gargoyles had some of the BEST villians going, especially Macbeth. Even Xanatos, in armor, didn't try to take on all the gargs at once (The Edge) much less succeed the way Macbeth does. Throw in the character's phenomanal personality and history, and you have one very engaging and dangerous guy.
As to the episode itself... I'm forced to agree it was the worst animation in season one. Did you notice in the final shot of Macbeth (in the tape Owen shows Xanatos) that he's got a mustache! Personally that bugged me more than the other probelems. At least keep the character's LOOK right! :)
My favorite part of the episode, amongst many cool moments: While Goliath battles Macbeth, Bronx frees Brooklyn and Lex by CRASHING BODILY STRAIGHT THROUGH THE ELECTRIFIED BARS! This time without the benefit of diveted current. This feat is so impressive it even shocks Brooklyn and Lex. Just look at their faces! I think their actually scared of him at this moment. In my mind, this established Bronx as being, pound for pound stronger than all the gargs, including Goliath.
My two cents... thanks for listening, er.. reading.
Bronx may be pound for pound stronger than Goliath. But his breaking through those bars had more to do with MOMENTUM, I think.
"METAMORPHOSIS" - a big favourite of mine.
I liked Derek after "HER BROTHER'S KEEPER"; I suppose his situation was so believable and yet immensely gripping.
But "METAMORPHOSIS" stunned me. I remember that I timed this episode for some reason - I think I'd assumed up until then that cartoons were cut to exactly 20 minutes and wanted to check it out just out of curiosity. So when I was timing it I was thinking "yeah, right - how long until he gets his cure?" Despite everything, I thought they'd suddenly turn up with a cure eventually. Of course, when my watch told me the thing had been running 19 minutes, my eyebrow raised.
The ending was incredible. I was hooked. I just had to know what happened to Talon. In fact, GMTV never showed it. Eventually I caught "THE CAGE" on the Disney Channel (which I didn't have access to when they showed the episodes first time around). In fact, I think the first episode I saw on TDC that I hadn't already seen was "THE CAGE", which pleased me. That was great too.
I think the whole business of Sevarius' death play and the serum bothered me. How on earth could they have timed it so precisely that Sevarius had his serum to smash at the same time the "Gargoyles" arrived, and that he could be sure of a good way to "die".
Well, keep in mind that the serum was phony. A test tube full of stuff could be ready at any time. And I think that hidden earpieces played a roll. We assumed that Lex got them into Gen-U-Tech without being spotted, but that's unlikely.
Just think about it. It's not as hard to time it as it might seem.
METAMORPHOSIS
I have a thing for cat-like characters as well. Catwoman from Batman has always been one of my favorite characters. So I liked the mutantes a lot. I love the electric eel thing too, it was very cool and very different. I like Talon's attitude. And Fang was a nice addition. I like Claw, but wish I could have seen more of him in the series. Maggie was a slight disappointment, mainly cause we didn't get to see her grow as much. They all seem to accept their new form later in the series, enjoy it even. Maggie was very different from the other mutants. She was more afraid, unsure, cautious...can't blame her. I am getting ahead of myself with this episode into other mutant episodes...but oh well...Maggie is very weak at first. Like a scared little kitten really. Very different from all the other strong female characters.
I think this episode also defined the moment for Brooklyn and all Brooklyn fans from then on. Here's ya got a handsome young gargoyle, who loves this new "gargoyle-like" creature and she blows him off, calling him a monster, even though she resembled a gargoyle. Then she runs to Talon. So ya got this sympathy for Brooklyn. Cause Lex and Broadway didn't seem as interested in her as he was. Ya got Demona even, in Temptation, to me, I felt that when he started to trust her, he started to like her, then she betrays him horribly. Then later, Angela goes for Broadway, when a lot of fans, including me, thought it would be Brooklyn. And poor Brook get's upstaged again, by one of his best friends too. Not that I wasn't happy myself. Actually, I like Broadway/Angela better then Brooklyn with her. Broadway isn't so "pushy"...I am gonna get it from all them Brook fans...So Brooklyn grows slightly from this. It's been over a thousand years, most of those sleeping, but the waking, with no females, so ya got this 16 year old boy, trapped on an island and suddenly the only female blows him off. It's hard for him and he develops the jealousy with Talon.
I also was slightly surprised, but certainly not disappointed by the ending. It was perfect for the episode and I wouldn't want to see it any other way.
BTW, I like look you developed later for the the mutants as well.
It was because we had so many strong female characters in the series (including Elisa, Maria, Diane, Demona, Fox and Hyena) that we (myself, Michael Reaves, Brynne Chandler Reaves and Lydia Marano) felt comfortable to make Maggie weaker -- at least at first. In fact Brynne and Lydia seemed to really want to explore a character that freaked out more. That frankly, reacted more as you or I would. I do think she grew though. She'd never be another Elisa, but "The Cage" represented a turning point for her. And I think she demonstrated real strength in "Kingdom". Not a warrior's strength. But a wife's strength. And by "The Reckoning", even though she didn't have a line, she WAS taking her turn guarding the prisoners.
Of course, the real irony is that she has almost NOTHING in common with the original MAGGIE THE CAT from William's CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF. That didn't bother me. I appreciated the irony.
And don't worry too much about Brooklyn. Katana's a good match for him.
METAMORPHOSIS
Ah, one of my favs. Pity I missed it the first time it aired.
Throughout the second season, the show was on while I was still in school, so I had to tape it all the time. Three times the VCR, for one reason or another, failed to tape. Each time, the eps that aired were new ones--METAMORPHOSIS, THE CAGE, and KINGDOM (are you sensing a pattern here?). What made this twist of fate REALLY cruel is that these are some of my favorite eps. I love cats for one thing, so I was instantly attracted to the Mutates. This episode was also the one that cemented Brooklyn as my favorite character, so there's another. And, in two of the missed eps, Tim Curry, one of my (again) favorite actors, is featured.
Missing this ep didn't put me too far out of the loop. The only reference to it I picked up was Elisa's remark in EYE OF THE BEHOLDER that the Werefox was "human once, just like [her] brother." For some reason I didn't catch the reference to "mutated victims" and in OUTFOXED, after an initial "Huh?", I forgot about Renard's mention of some "Anton Sevarius" (keeping the strength of THAT revelation safe until the second time around). But, I digress. On with the ep itself.
Brooklyn's attraction to Maggie (whom I instantly recognized and grew interested in--what can I say, I have an affinity for cat-women) intrigued me. I always wondered if the fact that she wasn't a true gargoyle even mattered to him. Did I root for him and Maggie to get together? Not neccesarily. Did I *expect* it? Actually, yes. The attitude Brooklyn displays here is usually as deep as most animated shows go in depicting "love." After some intiial shock, my admiration for the series increased when Maggie wound up with Talon and Brooklyn's attraction was shown as just a crush. Regardless, his "love at first sight" mentality was something in Brooklyn I found appealing (a fellow hopeless romantic, perhaps). His experiences here and his final acceptance of the facts grabbed my notice and from this ep on, I always tended to favor him (though I made an effort not to do so at the expense of the other characters).
Looking at the ep, knowing what I know about the characters now, Brodway's ability to "read people" versus Brooklyn's self-delusion is very nicely juxtaposed, and they have some good exchanges. When Brooklyn tells Broadway "You don't know anything about her" there is much irony--Broadway knows more about her than Brooklyn does.
For what it's worth, I believed Xanatos (probably helped because I had seen EYE OF THE BEHOLDER before I got to see this). He seemed sincere enough to me, and mutation seemed ultra-slimy even for him. Boy was I surprised at the end. I was even more surprised by the end than by Sevarius' "death"--you guys had let people die in the series before, why not now? My surprise was tripled when I saw that Sevarius looked much younger and had a less thick accent than how he'd been played. I thought Sevarius the "mad scientist" was the real thing--he was voiced by Tim Curry who is usually thrown into the roles of over-the-top scientists and (in his own words) "east-European villains" so it was a pleasure to see a sort of send-up of type-casting in this. (And who couldn't recognize Sevarius? Even without the accent, he still had Tim Curry's inimitable pipes.)
The ending: Morbidly enough, this ending is one of my favorites because the good guys actually lost this round. Brooklyn's brooding and Elisa's crying really drove this point home. I am, strangly enough, reminded of a joke T-shirt: "Sometimes, the dragon wins."
And FINALLY! I now know who did the voice of the as-yet-unnamed Fang in this ep. I knew it wasn't James Belushi (it didn't have quite the same "growling" quality) but I couldn't for the life of me figure it out, something I can normally do. Truth be told, I would NEVER have guessed it was Jonathan Frakes (though now it seems so obvious to me). Still, the voices are similar enough, and even if they weren't, the Mutates' voices tended to change with their appearance (Rocky Caroll's (sp?) voice for Derek is different than his voice for Talon, and Kath Souci's voice for Maggie was slightly different in KINGDOM than for her first two appearances). But, nice trivia to know.
I hadn't really noticed how much the theme of self-deception was a factor in this, but it makes sense.
And yes, the animation is sub-par, but I just like the story so much I can live with it (and if I can live with the animation in KINGDOM, I think I can live with anything).
POINTLESS OBSERVATION> Not only does Hudson get left at the Clock Tower, but in this ep (as well as TEMPTATION) he doesn't get a single line). In fact his first words to Maggie are "Who's there?" in THE CAGE.
I'm sure there was more I wanted to say, but I think this message is thick enough already.
Very good observations.
We intentionally gave Derek & Talon and Maggie Reed & Maggie the Cat different edges to their voices. We wanted the Mutates (with the obvious exception of Claw) to sound a bit more growly than their previous human counterparts.
But Maggie shouldn't have sounded any different between the Cage and Kingdom. Are you sure you're not just responding to attitude, not voice. Clearly, Maggie doesn't really start to come into her own until Kingdom.
Hello.
I see you are making progress with your backlog of questions. This question is kind of an ammendment to another question of mine.
A couple of months ago I asked if your idea for Owen was influenced by an archetype I referred to as being "a supernatural charachter indentured to a human master." I made reference to djinn being bound within oak or silver. Now, I dont recall if I was thinking this at the time, but...
I had just recently viewed "Prospero's Books" by Peter Greenaway again. There is a rather disturbing scene therin, of Ariel, bound in his "cloven pine." Spitting out splinters of wood and carring on. It's all rather ghastly. I had, in the past, made the observation that Ariel could be an other example of this archetype. I think, however, that I needed the emphasis Greenaway placed on certain elements to make some connections apparent to me. Of some peripheral interest is the fact that ariel is another spirit bound in a tree, but of greater interest is the stress placed on the characters servitude to Prospero. It was not much of a stretch to *read Owen* into the character.
OF GREATER INTEREST was how easy it became to read Xanatos into Prospero. I was struck by several things in this vein. The first being the parallel between the two men's status as "mortal's" who had aquired great power through supernatural means; particularly through the service of a captive spirit. (I realize the term "captive" does not really describe Owen's situation.) Further, Xanatos' collection of supernatural artifacts (The Eye, the Grimorrim, even the Gargoyles) could be a reflection of Prospero's robes and staff. The artifacts which empower him.
I also considered (perhaps on the heels of watching an adaptation that placed such emphasis on Pospero's Books) that the Grimorrim might be a volume Xanatos "valued above his dukedom."
I wonder also if a reading of Xanatos as *the exiled duke* would be too far off. Milan is in rather close proximity to Greece. I believe you placed Petros Xanatos as a native, there. While Xanatos may not have been physically exiled from his place of birth, it could be argued that his distance from his father and their conflicted relationship could be read as a kind of exile.
Now, I realize you have your reasons for not wanting to confirm or deny ideas that you had for the show, but were not able to elaborate on before it's cancellation. I read the anecdote about the guy who thought you had stolen his idea. (Wasn't he asking about the characters from "The Tempest," actually?) At this point, however, I think you have rather concretely established that Shakespeare plays a rather prominent and consistent theme in "Gargoyles." I cant imagine that anyone would not be inclined to believe that you were going for this reading from the beginning.
Maybe I'm completely wrong about all of this, but I'm sure it will elicit some interesting commentary from you.
To be honest, the Prospero/Xanatos connection never occured to me -- probably because I have specific ideas for Prospero as a separate character, and also because I SO saw Xanatos as a Coyote Trickster type, and I don't see Prospero that way at all.
But you're analysis fascinated me.
Of course, with the exception of "Possession", Xanatos never got any real magical aide from Owen. (That was kind of the point of their bargain.) But still, I like that what we did had some deep archetypal resonance.
Just read your "Metamorphosis" ramble. Thanks for it.
"Metamorphosis" is one of my favorite episodes - largely because of what I thought was a very effective ending (Elisa letting Xanatos have it verbally for what he did to Derek, then weeping back at the clock tower); I certainly agree with you that it made a great tragic close to the story. Elisa's weeping scene remains for me, to this day, one of my favorite "great moments" in "Gargoyles".
And I was certainly fooled by Xanatos the first time that I saw this episode. I actually believed him when he made it look as if he wanted to help Derek. In fact, when he refused to let Sevarius cage Derek, saying, "He's a man, not an animal", I practically gave him a mental standing ovation. And then, of course, when I discovered the truth at the end....
But it's interesting to note that I got fooled by Xanatos even AFTER I was familiar with his being the main villain in the series. I knew perfectly well what he was capable of, and yet still actually wanted to think that his concern for Derek was genuine.
Sevarius's apparent death also took me quite by surprise; even though I knew that "Gargoyles" wasn't a typical Disney cartoon, I was still staring at the scene where he apparently gets electrocuted and Xanatos announces his death, with an attitude of "They actually killed somebody in a Disney television cartoon?" (Of course, I must have forgotten about the Wyvern massacre, the fates of the Captain and Hakon, and even Elisa getting shot in "Deadly Force" - although she doesn't actually die there - at the time). Sevarius turning out to be alive at the end definitely astonished me as well.
I don't recall, on the other hand, what I thought at the time about Brooklyn and Maggie's sub-plot (I hadn't even realized, I might add, until after reading your memo, that that and Derek's part of the story both shared the "self-deception" theme, although it makes perfect sense to me now). I did sympathize a lot with Maggie, though; she gets mutated as almost a conscript for a war that she knew nothing about.
One last little note of interest: although you don't mention it in your ramble, Xanatos and Sevarius tell an additional lie that doesn't even get exposed as a lie until later on in the series, about not yet having any gargoyle genetic material to create a clone from. And then we discover in "Double Jeopardy" that they'd already created a clone (given that they got the blood sample from Goliath needed to create Thailog before the gargs even left the castle in "Enter Macbeth").
As for Sevarius's name: well, I think that it's kind of appropriate that it would sound cliched, given the way that the guy revels in cliches.
Yeah. Now I can't imagine him with any other name.
And by the way, we knew Sevarius and Xanatos were lying about the clone thing even then.
I'm writing this after reading your review of Enter MacBeth. I guess I don't have such a discerning eye, I don't remember noticing the animation. I did wonder how the fire spread so quickly in that stone castle, but some liberties can be allowed, I guess.
Continuity? Stuff's great. Elisa on crutches at the start - beautiful touch. Absolutely beautiful. The previously on Gargoyles clips also helped to reinforce the idea that there was something greater here than just episodic television. I didn't mind the early reruns either. Even though I was excited about a cartoon with Star Trek actors in it, when premier week came I forgot all about it until Friday. Just in time for the "surprise" ending that Demona and Xanatos were both bad guys. Oh well, you win some...
MacBeth. Fun guy. John Rhys-Davies has one of those marvelous voices. But I never gave him much thought until City of Stone. "You mean, MacBeth is the ACTUAL MacBeth? Cool!!!" That's gotta be one of the best surprise revelations in a cartoon show ever.
Hmmm, should there be a question here? Okay, how about this. Did you know our man David Xanatos made the Hall of Evil Geniuses? Yep, some guy's webpage roots for evil, and David's on it:
http://home1.gte.net/locke/genius.html
Cool. Although of course, he's less evil than amoral. But that's splitting hairs.
DEADLY FORCE
When I first saw this, I missed the first few minutes (it was on early in the morning where I lived and I accidentally overslept). I came in when Broadway was munching the popcorn. Still, when I did see the first few moments, Owen's actions didn't surprise me--I was already impressed enough with him (I had already seen his work in ENTER MACBETH). Dracon did make for an interesting addition to the cast of villains here. Not of the same caliber as Xanatos and Demona, sure, but in his own right he's pretty good.
Now, as for the shooting itself...how do I say this? I was surprised and I wasn't. Let me put it this way--I wasn't surprised that the show would have someone actually getting shot and I figured that Elisa would get shot the instant I saw Broadway pick up the gun. What DID surprise me was how close to death Elisa came. Not to mention the final image of Act I. Then of course there's the end of Act II where Elisa actually flat-lines. You guys always could do shocking cliff-hangers. Yeah, so you couldn't have Elisa die and make it real. She was the secondary lead. At least you did have her flat-line.
How Broadway deals with it is very well done. This is the ep that always impresses me about him. You're right, his rage here is indeed awe-inspiring. Everytime I see the way he handles Glasses I wince in sympathy. I'd hate to have him mad at me.
Him or Goliath. This is another thing I like about this series--the main hero has come close to killing someone in the name of vengence several times already. I like this edge--I like it that the heroes in this show are presented with very real flaws. And yeah, his unbeknownst-to-him-love for Elisa is pretty well shown here. I especially like the last moment the two of them have together.
Back on Broadway, compliments on pulling him out of the "eating machine" pidgeon hole. So many shows just designate a character as that and leave him there. Kudos for giving him something more.
Yeah, about the second or third time I saw this, I noticed it was Matt driving Chavez's car. That always brought a grin to my face the way you guys thougth ahead like that.
One of my favorite parts comes when Owen complains about Goliath destroying Xanatos's guns, and Goliath comments with a veiled threat; "I'll be happy to discuss the matter with him." Do you think he also destroyed those guns to get back at Xanatos? Not as a primary reason, but just as sort of a "bonus."
I always enjoy watching this episode for these little touches.
YOU WROTE:
One of my favorite parts comes when Owen complains about Goliath destroying Xanatos's guns, and Goliath
comments with a veiled threat; "I'll be happy to discuss the matter with him." Do you think he also destroyed
those guns to get back at Xanatos? Not as a primary reason, but just as sort of a "bonus."
Of course.
Don?t worry about coming off as arrogant, Greg. I love hearing your take on the episodes and I look forward to reading them. I always learn so much? Here?s my responses:
Kid movies and, yes, even Disney movies are obviously getting more and more violent. In 1936, the men working on Snow White said that it was too violent for them to take their kids to see. This summer, Clayton fell out of a really big tree with a vine wrapped around his neck and hung himself. A couple years ago, Frollo, obsessed with Gypsy Esmeralda, tried to burn her at the stake. Both of these things were violence and drama for their own sake. Deadly Force, as you said, was making a *statement*. A statement that REALLY needs to be heard these days. It?s easy to look at it superficially and go, ?Nope. Guns, blood. Can?t show that on television.? I?m upset that Toon Disney didn?t look closer.
About Elisa almost dying: I believe this is pretty close to what Doctor Sato said, ?The bullet entered high in the chest, ricocheted off the collarbone, nicked the heart muscle and passed through the right lung. I?ve removed it from the base of the spine.? Yeah. She?s damn lucky to be alive.
I liked what you said about time travel. You can?t change the past. I?d never thought about it farther than that that was the rules of the Phoenix Gate: time corrects itself. Like a river. But it?s true with or without the Gate. You CAN?T change the past.
Matt, as I recall, was also camioed in Her Brother?s Keeper. In his underwear. Briefs. Purple.
I work in a theater. We never keep bagged popcorn for more than overnight.
Good to know.
Greg,
Read your "Temptation" Ramble, and there were a few things that I would love to point out about that episode.
First off: I loved the leather jacket and HOW brooklyn folded his wings under his arms. He really did look good in that episode. ^_^
Second: The bike. It was a cool bike! BUT, the bikers when they see it say: "Cool Hog." Now, okay people who don't know much about motorcycles would refer to any bike as a hog, but these Biker's would know better. A Hog is a Harley Davidson...and Lex's creation looked nothing like a Harley. I dunno if that was you, or somebody else. But oh well, it was still a cool bike.
Third: The spell. Now Elisa says: "I want you to act, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, as if you weren't under a spell." Wouldn't that in sense nullify some future spells on the big guy? I mean sure, Puck's spell worked well, cause he still ACTED like he wasn't under a spell. Were you maybe planning on keeping with this for future continuity?
oh, and I LOVE your little analizations (sp?) of the episodes. It really lets us get more into your head, and into the world of the Gargoyles.
The 'hog' reference was ultimately my responsibility. (Obviously, I know next to nothing about motorcycles.) Though Michael and Brynne Reaves (the story editor and writer) can share some of the blame.
As for the spell, it would have to be a case-by-case thing. But most spells would not be affected.
TEMPTATION
While this isn't the ep that cemented Brooklyn in my head as "Favorite Character," I have to admit he is GREAT in it.
I still love Lexington's remark about building a horse from spare parts.
Demona's tour of the city--Yeah, the DEAD BODY surprised me too. Very powerful, very good, as were Demona's other two "examples" of humanity. Bennett and Sirtis did WONDERFUL jobs with their voice acting here.
As for the bikers not noticing Brooklyn, yeah everybody notices that. I just try to ignore it and that seems to work. If nothing else, most of the bikers in that scene WERE wearing sunglasses at night (as someone else already pointed out). Come to think of it, some of them weren't even wearing helmets....;-)
Elisa's finger--great, now that you've mentioned it, *I'LL* probably look for it and not be able to see anything else in the scene.
I was surprised to hear that Brooklyn's description of the Cloisters was taken by some folks as "proof" that gargoyles were not native to this planet. Anyone who saw the first two episodes should have understood what Brooklyn meant. Come to think of it, why WOULD people want the gargoyles to be from another planet?
One of my favorite lines in this episode--Brooklyn: "You hold the book, Demona. But *I* hold the *spell*!" I just LOVE that.
The resolution of the spell may have been a bit of a cheat, but it WAS a creative and original solution to the problem. So, you guys still get some points in that area.
Lex and Brooklyn talking about the motorcycle at the end and Lex's reaction are always enjoyable.
Pointless note: Hudson doesn't speak a single line in this episode. Odd, when I think about it. Still, you do at least SEE him a few times.
Good ep.
The Hudson thing was budgetary. Often if we had a character who needed to appear for logic's sake but didn't have too much to contribute to the story, we'd avoid just giving him one or two lines to prove he's there. That way we could save money on the actor's salary for that episode. That money saved could be used later on for some of our big cast expensive episodes.
Trust however that I never scrimped. If I thought Hudson needed to speak in that episode, even if it was only ONE line, I would not have hesitated to pay for Ed Asner to be in the session.
This is (also) in response to Exolexy's commentary on the post-Avalon episodes. First and foremost, while I do not agree with Exolexy, I do not think it in good taste to make him an anti-fan; an object at which to toss glares as we hang on your arms.
With that said, I would like to say that the post-Avalon episodes had a very jarring effect on me, I believe similar to the one it had on Exolexy. I simply found things to be a bit overwhelming. "The Mirror" had been an early taste, but after "Avalon" things just skyrocketed.
Gargoyles had never struck me as that thick of a fantasy series before that point. My interpretation had been that the gargoyles were the sole fantasy elements, and that that was the premise: Fantasy creatures in a real world. But then the viel was brought back... and at first I didn't like it.
I was a sci-fi fan. Fantasy wasn't my thing. I couldn't grasp beings like Oberon, as it appears Exolexy wasn't able to. My science-fiction conditioned mind kept trying to compare him to Star Trek's "Q", like two puzzle pieces that wouldn't go together. 'If he's onmipotent, why isn't he noncorporeal?' I said. 'Omnipotence demands you be noncorporeal!'
After a while, though, I began to thaw. Then I began to re-watch. And with each re-viewing I came to appreciate the rich mythological and fantasy elements more. Now I couldn't imagine a Gargoyles without all of that.
In short, I owe my appreciation for the fantasy genre to Gargoyles. It was responsible for 'bridging' me over.
Wow. Cool.
I was raised on the bastard genre of super-hero comics. Fantasy and sci-fi always mixed in with reality and heroics, etc.
None of this seemed strange to me.
(Of course, I don't know what Exo-Lexy said. I guess I'm being protected.)
After a long delay I am now beginning again to repost much of what had been lost in the crash. Sorry for the delay.
Comment: there were a couple high-tensioned posts of Exolex, Lexy and me which I won't repost - my reason for that is that Exolexy made a comment which seemed to imply to me he wouldn't mind their deletion: if however any of you wants their specific lost comments reposted, just say the word and I'll do so: I'm not exercising censorship, just caution.
Huh?
Uh, thanks.
(What's there to be cautious about?)
The caption. Must've been my imagination then. But thank you for the confirmation.
Of course, I goofed up anyway, since the prison is actually *Ryker's* Island, not Riker's Island. Must've been thinking of something else. ;)
Huh?
Not questions- comments:
I read your Leader of the Pack posting... as usual, I loved it. Thank you again for posting such things.
I think I remember being surprized by "Xanatos" under the helmut. At the time I was still blown away by one of my all time favorite tv lines; "Because Nietzchi is too butch and Kafka reminds me of your friends down there." {AND the close up on enough letters to recognize Sarte!} I know I was shocked to find out the truth. I thought little of Xanatos for going on a revenge binge, but modern tv has lowered my expectations. However I was stunned when Bronx went for "Xanatos' head", just shocked.
Oddly enough I thought the gargoyles flying away was a nice choice. Many other times there has been widespread ignoring of the "glide, not fly" principle. Here they circled around this unusual unexpected heat source. Under normal circumstances there might have been no way to get back in the air. Coming out to a place without sirious updrafts was a choice the gargoyles made because they had to, a ramiphication of Lex's hastiness. Showing them circling, using the fire to get back in the air, was a touoch of realism with interesting implications. Swimming would have taken away the open question whether they all could swim the distance, especially the part of Bronx howling as if he will drown. It would have been a more explicit version of the 'can't just fly' problem, but not an example of the gargoyles clearly using aor currents to glide.
MAybe I'm just rambling- it is late.
One other thought.
Now that the answers are coming in every day, and the recently answered page is actually moving, I find myself afraid I've missed something that came and scrolled off already, but reluctant to search the entire archive. Perhaps another page would be a good idea. A Relatively New Page in which newer messages, irespective of catagory, would sit for a set amount of time. Each message would automatically fall off the list in 30 days or the like. Just a thought.
I think at times we counted on modern pop culture lowering expectations. That allowed us to defy those expectations on occasion.
Nice point about the gliding. So it couldn't have been that late.
I try to keep the new answers up for at least a week. But keep in mind, if you miss some, you only have to check the top of any archive. I know it's still a pain, but at least you don't have to read everything. And most posts go to multiple archives.
But don't hesitate to make your suggestions to Gore. It's still his site, not mine.
Hi Greg,
I'm working on responding to your rambles on the individual episodes while spacing myself enough that you don't have to read a whole slew of them at once. Hopefully, I'll eventually be caught up enough that you'll remember the rambles I'm refering to.
Without further ado...
"The Thrill of the Hunt"
First off, I think the Trio tryptic was a good followup to "Awakening", since it developed the Trio much more fully beyond their comic relief teenager personalities. Though each of them stand alone well enough, they also fit together nicely with an "Innocence Betrayed" theme. Lex believes the TV version of the Pack is the real thing and gets a rude awakening upon actually meeting them. Brooklyn makes an attempt to fit in with modern humanity and is nearly killed. Broadway accepts the media vision of guns and ends up injuring Elisa. The Trio is discovering the modern world and it's not always a pretty picture.
I also appreciated the fact that Lex was right and in spite of the fact that the episode's events seemed to prove him wrong, Goliath acknowledged that Lex was right. Unfortunately, Goliath didn't seem to do much in the way of "seeking out kindred spirits" for the rest of the season. Though unless I remember wrong (which is entirely likely), Brooklyn uses the same term to describe the bikers he approaches in "Temptation". So maybe the task fell to him.
I love continuity. It's one of the reasons I was so addicted to "Gargoyles" when it was still on Disney Afternoon. And I loved seeing ramifications to the characters actions. I can't remember if I had expected Xanatos to be out of jail by this episode, but I know I appreciate that he wasn't.
And on the other end of the spectrum, we have the clashes between Elisa and Goliath over the status of the castle as the gargoyles' home. Kind of a sign of what was to come, slowly setting up the idea that the victory in "Awakening Pt 5" wasn't as final as Goliath would like it to be.
I agree, this was probably Wolf's shining moment. Much like the gargoyles, we weren't sure what he was capable of at this point. He seemed focused, a skilled hunter, and maybe even strong enough to take on Goliath. Later on, he kind of degenerated into more of a bully type; strong and not exactly stupid, but no strategist either. By the time "Vendettas" aired, he just seemed so inept that I could hardly take him seriously.
The Pack hype was fun. I didn't equate it with Power Rangers at the time, but I can see it now. It also adds to the idea of the gargoyles being from a completely different era that Lex would be completely taken in by something any human teenager could easily identify as so much special effects.
If I was going to compare this episode to "Temptations", I'd probably say that Fox is Lex's Demona. As a rule, Lex hates the Pack in general well into season two, but Fox is the one who seems to really get to him. Thinking on her feet, she dupes him into bringing Goliath to meet the Pack. And judging by his face after she stroked his chin, Lex was pretty well under her spell at that point. Having him so enthralled with the pack really sets him up for the fall later on.
Was that A "Beauty and the Beast" nod when the Pack are seeking out Goliath and Lex on a rooful of stone gargoyles? Or just coincidence? That particular film is one of my other great loves and I enjoyed the ocassional reference to it in "Gargoyles", Elisa's Halloween costume being the most obvious.
That should be all for me. Thanks for listening and thanks as always for helping to make such a fine show.
You're welcome. (But no, I don't think that rooftop was a B&B ref.)
Comments on "Leader of the Pack"
When I first saw Coyote scaling the prison wall I immediatly said, "that is SO obviously Xanatos." And when he took off the helmet I honnestly thought you were running out of surprises, I was pleasantly surprised at the end. When Bronx leapt on Coyote and chewed his face off, I literally screamed "WHAT THE F---! THEY KILLED XANATOS!" Then as soon as he got off the ground, for a moment I thought he was still Xanatos and that he would acquire a Dr. Doom esque look to hide his disfigurement. Than he turned out to be a robot, and it all made sense. Than I bust my gut laughing at Hyena's reaction.
Did I think that Xanatos truly loved Fox, well to be honest, no. I thought they were like Boris and Natasha as lovers. But I did like the development in "Eye" and "Vows". Now, I did think that Fox was in love with him after "Brother", just something I knew.
You created two great characters there.
Thanks. I had help.
Quick comment on "Leader of the Pack." I had already figured out that Fox loved Xanatos from that scene in "Her Brother's Keeper." But I had no idea that Xanatos returned those feelings or that the two of them were an item--that last scene in the limo was an awesome surprise. I was also totally duped by the Coyote robot--I thought that was Xanatos. I had felt a little uneasy about Coyote's tunnel-vision focus on vengence, but dismissed it because the story was so cool and I was glad the show was back. But when you showed that Coyote was a robot, and that Xanatos clearly didn't care about vengence, it all clicked. Great surprise, great clue, great episode!!
Thanks. Rather proud of all that switchin' back and forth myself.
Re: "Leader of the Pack"
I have to admit, "Leader" wasn't one of my favorite episodes. In fact, it's near the bottom of the list, right above "Monsters." It did have some great moments, though. I loved the ending with Xanatos and Fox. I liked the scene between Hyena and Fox before they were sprung loose. I also liked the interaction between Brooklyn and Lexington.
But what I liked most of all was something I hadn't noticed until your ramble: The trickery. A lot of clever bits in this show had me fooled. For one thing, I never expected a robot to have to wear a suit of armor, which contributed to my believing it was actually Xanatos. Coyote is the first robot on the show to hide his face under helmet. In a way, it was wearing *two* masks: The helmet, and Xanatos' likeness. The whole show is laced with this kind of trickery.
Too often, I find myself able to predict what is going to happen on a show. It seems that too many of them follow the tired old conventions. Even "Batman," which started out new and fresh, sank into predictable patterns toward the end of its run on the WB Network.
I respect any story that can take me by surprise. Even if it's not my favorite one. In my opinion, that's what separates the talented writers from the ones who merely regurgitate ideas from a preset formula. I think the word for it is... "creativity."
Uh, thanks. (I think.)
So what didn't you like? (He asks with some trepidation.)
O.o; just saw all those clan posts you had to look through. Some people have lots of time on there hands. <like I'm one to talk>. Anycase. 9.9; as so my useless comment won't get kicked. A sincere note of..
Thank you for giving us a show <with a little help from the evil hordes of Disney under the name of Buena Vista cause they didn't have full faith in the show>. And thanks to all the people who helped with it. And you for somehow having the weird mindzap to tap into a universe that is not of our own. :) Thats it. <runs of>
You are welcome, sir.
Greg, your ramblings on "Leader of the Pack" were great. You are too cool. I may only be 23, but I remember Westworld too. :oP As for Fembots, well, I didn't see any machine guns sticking out of Coyote's "jumblies". :oP
*chuckles then sighs* I would really love to get my hands on all of those episodes. I suppose I'll have to go get a satelite....cable sucks anyway. Hearing you talk about the episodes, sounding like such a kid with the enthusium and vigor of one seeing it for the first time...well, it is truly captivating. I love your rambles. Man! What great eye-openers they are!
Thanks. Like I said, I'm having fun.
Leader of the Pack comments...
I love the part where Bronx bites Coyote. The first time I watched it, I was sitting there thinking, "Come on, Bronx, bite his head!" I was pretty amused when he actually did it...
(Kind of like in Eye of the Beholder, when Xanatos gave Fox the Eye and I got really grossed out. I thought I was just being silly... until I saw Eye of the Storm.)
As for when I realized that Fox was in love with David, it was in Her Brother's Keeper, since she was getting all gushy. You said that anyone who saw later episodes first is disqualified, but the only episode with Fox in it that I saw prior to the first season was when I saw her at the end of Possession (I missed the beginning), which should have tipped me off big time, except I didn't even notice her. I was too busy boggling over the fact that Owen had turned into a strange blond human. Oh, and I saw CoS before HBK, but I didn't catch on.
I would have loved to have seen the gargoyles swimming back to shore. They glide all the time, where's the fun in that?
I didn't think that Xanatos was lying about being in love with Fox, but I didn't necessarily think he was telling the truth, either. If he didn't care about her at all, he probably wouldn't have bothered getting her out, but "true love" probably seemed a bit excessive.
I don't think he knew then. Though obviously he liked her company. (You sure saw them in an odd order. I'm lucky the show still worked for you.)
LEADER OF THE PACK
(vrOOM vrOOM! Sorry, couldn't resist!)
I thought this was a pretty good season premiere episode myself. Actually, my brother was watching it with me as well, the first time it aired, and he actually got into it a bit.
I was surprised to hear the narration in the new opening sequence. I do think the dramatic impact was greater when it was purely music, but then again...it's Keith David's voice. It worked.
The prison break had some great imagery and Coyote really steals the show here. Even though the voice was modulated, enough mannerisms were able to pass through (aided by the quips) to make my brother ID Coyote as Xanatos. Me, I wasn't so sure--just didn't seem quite his style. Of course at the end of the act, Coyote takes off his mask and reveals the distinctive Xanatos mug, so I gave my brother a point there. At the end of the episode, however, guess who felt vindicated.
I can't be sure if "Xanatos'" lust for revenge clued me in that he wasn't the REAL Xanatos, but I knew something was up.
Lexington's grudge worked for me. I also liked that it's Brooklyn who relates to him and tries to reach him. It made sense in light of their similar experiences, and coupled with his much sounder "strategic thinking" continued to show him as a growing leader. And I caught his reference to ENTER MACBETH. I always thought it was a nice touch.
But this is Lex's show. And I still LOVE that scene where he blows a hole through Coyote. Violent, but cool (and he does come across more dangerous here than where he's "hopping"--I agree with you there). Of course he gets his "priorities straight" at the end--predictably of course. But I think Thom's reading of Lex's final lines in the episode is some great acting.
Owen--Still knocking 'em dead. Impeccable mannerisms and definitely hints of the Puck.
Random observation: Durning Brook, Bronx, and Lex's fight with the Pack, the three of them are really taken out by only TWO Pack members--Dingo and Coyote. I just find it interesting.
The climactic fight with the Pack does seem to have trouble keeping track of who's fighting who. In fact, between escaping from the hold and the shot of Lex holding the gun and saying "Who's next?" I can't find Brooklyn anywhere. Bias again. Ignore that comment.
Anyway, the scenes with Coyote's head being gnawed on/kicked off/rocketing away are some of my favorite images in the episode (I can be real sick sometimes) and wouldn't you know it, those are the scenes Toon Disney gets rid of.
XANATOS TAG>> I knew Fox had the hots for Xanatos at the end of HER BROTHER'S KEEPER. I DID NOT know that Xanatos reciprocated those feelings. So I was pleasantly surprised, and I liked his line about revenge, robots and true love. I remember my brother voicing his hope that Xanatos was sincere about that part. Me, I don't know why...but I believed he loved her.
OTHER NOTES> You mentioned a "Hudson-game show scenlet" and Lex using "reflective mirrors." Care to elaborate?
Also, I always wondered why Elisa was only in one scene in the season premiere. Now I have a better idea.
Thanks!
I don't remember the Hudson & Lex references. Could you give me more context?
Just read your "Leader of the Pack" ramble, and a very good one too. Thank you for it; it was really worth the wait.
Re Xanatos and Fox: I was certainly surprised to see at the end that the two were an item - I doubt that I'd even quite picked up on it in Fox's scene in "Her Brother's Keeper". I'm not certain as to my full response to it the first time that I saw it, but I know that it got my attention.
Hyena and Coyote: I've got to admit, I find that the most disturbing relationship in all of "Gargoyles" (come to think of it, even Jackal finds it disturbing, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redoing Goliath's features in his stone sleep). Definite proof that Hyena is strange. (That's probably why I never answered the "Why is Hyena smiling?" contest that you set up after "Her Brother's Keeper" - I'm not certain that I wanted to know the answer :)
I certainly agree with you about the bit where Lexington blasts the hole in Coyote; I also felt that he seemed ready to do the same thing to the human Pack members.
One touch that I like about Coyote, incidentally, is his name. On one level, it fits in with the Pack's habit of using "dog-names" for their members. However, it also fits a robot who starts off by masquerading as Xanatos, and who was designed that way by Xanatos himself, because of the "Coyote the Trickster" element (which you eventually brought into the series in "Cloud Fathers") - not only because Xanatos himself is a trickster, but also because Coyote himself was a trickster in "Leader of the Pack" by duping everyone into believing him Xanatos (everyone but Bronx, that is).
I hadn't given any real thought to Hyena's Santa Claus remark before, but now (in light of your earlier mention that you had a story planned for old St. Nick), I'm wondering if that was a subtle little foreshadowing reference like Elisa's mention of Loch Ness and UFOs in "The Edge".
Oh, and I might add that I also liked the way that Owen was handled in it (it's just like him to deliver the Pack's whereabouts to the gargs in the manner of an invitation to a social event), and Fox's mention of various philosophers that she reads (that's one thing that I like about "Gargoyles"; its very literate quality.
Thanks. Doing these Ramblings has been horrendously time-consuming -- much moreso than I thought -- but it's been a ton of fun too, revisting these shows that I haven't really watched in a few years. I'm glad you guys have been enjoying them too.
Coyote's always been one of my favorite mythological characters. It's been fun to include him -- in all the myriad ways we have included him.
*chuckles* I just ~LOVE~ the answer given to Gside on June 20, 2000. That really made my day! *chuckles again mumbling "sneaky-bastard"* .... *snickers as she walks out*
O.K. but now it's over a month later, and I don't know what you're talking about. But I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Uhh....Sheesh, but you had a lot to go through to get here! LOL, I bet your eyes are red and stinging! Thanks for taking the time to deal with us annoying, curious poeple! :oP
Um, as I write this it's July 29th, and I have no idea what you're referring to. Sorry. But thanks, I think.
This isn't a question, but I had to comment on today. As everyone knows, it is Father's Day. I was reading your answers, that you let Erin and Ben give their input on. As I have said before, you are a great dad! Happy Father's Day!
Thank you very much. I try anyway.
Hi Greg!
Before I go into my comments proper, I just wanted to mention that I picked up the JLA Showcase for the sole purpose of reading your story. (Though, being a pretty well cerifiable comics fan, I did read the rest of it and enjoyed the majority of it.) I read in the archives that you had originally expected someone else to be penciling it. But judging from the appearance of "Le Trio", Seine, and Left Bank, I'm guessing somebody gave Mr. Jones some sort of reference. Anyways, it was a fun read and it's nice to see you finding a way to do some "Gargoyles" related stuff. Sort of.
Now the real post.
First off, I started watching "Gargoyles" during season 1. I got interested when I saw the trailer that preceded the "Nightmare Before Christmas" video and the various ads that ran in comic books. (It was a nice touch when Brooklyn repeated the "Stopping evil...stone cold!" catch phrase as well as every other one associated with the show in...."Gathering, Part One, I think.) But I actually ran across the show by accident. So the first episode I saw was actually "Awakening, Part Two". I think I caught on to what was going on pretty quickly in spite of missing part one. But after that, my sister and I both became loyal viewers. I only missed a few episodes - usually due to piano lessons - and I caught all of them on a later airing.
I think one things I noticed early on that might have clued me in to the fact that this show was going to be a bit different was Xanatos's line "Pay a man enough, and he'll walk barefoot through Hell." (Forgive me if I'm misquoting; I don't have my tapes with me.) Even though this was pretty much an isolated case, I think the fact that Xanatos was able to say that did strike me.
Thinking back now, I find it rather touching that Tom considered the gargoyles his friends after a single short conversation with them. Though he may just be picking up on their way of refering to one another.
Ah Demona. Definitely one of my top five favorite characters. As I missed Part One the first time around, I can't say if Demona's return was predictable or not. I did kind of figure she was going to be a villain, though I can't remember if I saw the D.A. preview comic before or after "Awakening". I do recall being a little saddened by the fact that the only female gargoyle (at the time) turned out to be a villain. Little did I know.
I admit that I'm biased due to my personal fondness for Demona, but I can't believe that there was nothing but schemeing in her head when she was reunited with Goliath. Yes, she does lie to him about how she survived the Wyvern massacre. But she's had a good thousand years to think about a plausable story to explain that. And granted she does want to win him over to her way of thinking. But I'm not sure that she had really considered the possibility that Goliath would turn her away. She probably thought that she had him just about on her side, since he would be seeing her alive again and still have the memory of the Wyvern betrayal pretty fresh in his mind. And after all those years of solitude, some part of Demona must have felt genuine joy at seeing Goliath again. And in this case, I think she would much more freely acknowledge that part of her than she would after "Awakening".
I got a hint at the fact that "Gargoyles" would be heavy on continuity when Elisa starts telling Goliath about the bright side of Manhattan and mentions "moms who sings their kids to sleep, like my mom used to sing to me". This implied that, in spite of her limited wardrobe, Elisa was not a standard cartoon character. She had not always been a twentysomething and she did have a family. Even though I didn't see them until "Deadly Games", it set me up for their appearance.
At this early stage, the Trio did seem a bit like typical cartoon teenagers with wings and tails. Within the context of the whole season, it does fit and the "Trio trilogy" defines them as individuals. But at the time, I was pretty much expecting the Ninja Turtles minus one.
I can't remember if I recognized Xanatos as the villain at that point. Demona either. Incidently, I'm sure you hear from Star Trek fans who watched the show and thought of Xanatos as Commander Riker. My experience was the opposite; I didn't start watching Star Trek much until after I was well into "Gargoyles". Consequently, I spent the first few episodes calling Riker "Mr. Xanatos"!
And I did appreciate the nice animation on the first awakening in Manhattan and the final fight scene. I love good characterization, but really cool action scenes certainly have their uses too.
And no, I didn't think Demona was dead. She had wings. She'd survived for a thousand years somehow. She was just too darn COOL to die.
That's all I can think of for now. I'll probably post what I thought about the rest of season one some other time. (In easily digested, one episode per post chunks) Thanks as always for your time.
And incidently, I expect nothing less than excellence from the "Bone" movie. Jeff Smith's got control of the project and he used to be an animator. So he has no excuse.
That's all. Really.
Thanks for all the kind words. I agree that Demona was hoping for a complete reunion with Goliath -- she just assumed it would be on her terms.
I have every confidence that Jeff Smith will do a great job on the Bone movie.
I noticed something interesting about "Reawakenings". There's a scene where Brooklyn says "We live above a police station! What could happen?" And at the end of the next season, lo, the tower gets blown up by a missle from the Hunter's airship! What could happen, indeed.....! ;-)
Well, see, police stations aren't as safe as they used to be.
Greg, if you want to revive Gargoyles, you should probably stop quit with stuff that could offend the worlds major religions. Like for instance:
1)You said humans were using a variation of the gargoyle "Ashes to ashes or dust to dust" at their funerals.
This was a biblical reference to humans being created from the dust of the Earth, and a lot of people take everything the Bible says at face value. (I don't but I know people who do.
2)You once said the the Gargoyles Universe is ruled by fate, and God knows everything that will happen. This is a common religious mistake, God knows everything that COULD happen, not what WILL happen. Or at least thats what most ministers would say if you asked them.
1. I stand by what I wrote.
2. I don't think I ever said that exactly. But I also disagree with your assessment of what "ministers would say". God knowing the future doesn't negate free will. God knows everything. The way you now know how, say, the X-Men movie ends. Doesn't mean that the creators of that movie didn't have free will, just because at some point in the future it would already be a done deal. The fact that God isn't bound by time the way we are, doesn't mean he hasn't granted us the gift of free will. I think most ministers would agree with me on this topic. Nearly all, in fact.
And generally, I doubt I've "offended the world's major religions" ever, let alone often. I'm certainly not worried about ministers preventing me from making the show again.
I realize that my composition is a little horrendous at points and, with you having been a teacher and editor, I apologize for the shoddiness of grammar in my post.
Don't sweat it.
Greg, this is in response to a rambling of yours from a while back that I just read in the archive; the one in which you spoke of vindication in a lawsuit over who'd created Gargoyles. You closed the post saying that you might seem petty. I just wanted to assure you that I don't think you're response to the situation is petty at all. As for him besmirching your honor, I think he did. As for you feeling vindicated, I think you're wholly justified. I write and draw, I've got my own little worlds with their own intricate characters. They're like my children, I know all about them, what makes them tick, who they are in more than just a face value sense; I also appreciate their predilection to define themselves as I write... Being a creator of things, of giving my ideas substance, I can empathize with the feeling of having been slighted by someone who claims that something of yours is actually theirs. The only thing we really have to call our own is the unquantifiable stuff in our minds. Alas when that stuff gets made into a tangible medium, it becomes quantifiable to many. Granted, you know that it will always be the ethereal stuff of your ideas, but having not created it themselves, the rank and file look at it as a commodity; unfortunately, people see commodities fit to be stolen. So, I guess the risk of quantifying and distributing your ideas to the masses is the potentiality to have some dishonorable charlatan try to steal it. I really respect that you pursued your vision and manifested it in a series as spectacular as Gargoyles. It still stands as my favorite show of all time. I hope that I'll be able to find the gumption to get my ideas out to the public; you're a bit of a hero to me in that aspect. And while my feeling that you're justifiable in feeling vindicated could be perceived as hero worship, I don't deify anyone. My empathy is just that, understanding. I wish you luck on all your future endeavors.
Thanks for the support.
To clarify, I'm NOT claiming I created (let alone produced) Gargoyles by myself. It wasn't only my honor that was being besmirched, it was the honor of every member of the team that I led.
And I'm also not claiming that this guy STOLE my ideas. For all I know he independently came up with an idea for a gargoyles show. After all, gargoyles exist. They're out there. He could have had a similar idea.
What bothered me was his assumption, without any evidence that I had ever even SEEN his materials, that I had stolen my ideas from him. If I can grant that he came up with it independently, why can't he grant the same.
I enjoyed your "Gargoyles vs. Batman" memo that you reprinted and sent to the list. It's nice to be able to read it at last.
While, as you admitted, some of the differences cited were probably not all that serious (as in the butler one you mentioned), I do think that it gives an effective explanation of the thematic differences between the two series, not only in the head one (the difference between how Bruce Wayne and Goliath have been affected by their tragedies), but also in your mentioning of how Gotham City and the gargoyles' New York differ from each other - which clearly reflects the nature of the leads as well (Gotham City's darkness reflecting Batman's own internal darkness, while New York's more upbeat tone reflecting Goliath's belief that, with a good amount of work, he and his clan can make things better).
(One other difference I might add: time period. The Gotham City of "Batman:TAS" is a surrealistic blend of different time periods - its technology is advanced enough to have computer disks and videotapes, but the clothing, architecture, and styles of the cars and airplanes all suggests something more 1930's to 1950's and color television hasn't even been introduced yet, apparently - while the New York of "Gargoyles" is more definitely set in the 1990's).
At any rate, thanks for posting it.
True, though one might argue that our time period -- though more grounded in the present -- in fact intentionally merged the present with the distant past and the far-flung future. We loved juxtaposing the ancient with the modern with the futuristic. It was one of our signature motifs, e.g. gargs in modern Manhattan.
Hello Greg:
My name is Alvaro, I am from Spain and I warn you that this message will be quite bad written even so I hope you answer.I am a I authenticate fanatic of your series and you are an it schemes.I almost have all the recorded chapters that have been emitted in españa but I doubt that they have been emitted all alone one to tell you that that you are a genius and that you continue with the series although that sees it difficult.Another thing Brooklyn is my favorite one although all are brilliant.I hope you are able to read the message well and that you answer me if you can.
my e-mail: zoom-alvaro@teleline.es
Alvaro, thanks for writing. I hope you still check this site, because I don't have the time to personally e-mail all the people who post here.
I appreciate that we have fans all over the world. It's very gratifying. Maybe we can meet at a Gathering some day?
My parents just took a trip to Ireland, and were surprised by the daylight hours. It's June, and the sun is up from 4:30 am to 10:00 pm. Scotland's even farther north than Ireland. I guess the Wyvern nights got pretty short in the summer, while being very long in the winter. Good thing Gargoyles don't mind the cold so much. Must've been nice for Goliath and crew to move to New York where the daylight periods don't vary quite as much.
Yep.
Dear Mr. Wiseman:
I find myself in a strange situation, but one perhaps you've heard about a hundred times before. I'm going on 37 years old and I LOVE Gargoyles! How I started watching I won't bore you with, suffice it to say I now MAKE my husband tape it on Toon Disney for me every night (to his credit, he rolls his eyes but does it - what a good boy!). Problem is, I don't even have any children so I can't say "Oh, you know, the kids like to watch it, and I sort of follow along to see what they're watching..." Nope. No excuses. I just plain love the show.
So, after all that, here's the question. I think the show was marketed towards the a 'young adults' market, but how many of the fans you accrued actually turned out to be my age? Did that surprise you, or were you hoping/expecting it? (I know, strictly speaking that's two questions, but I hope since they're variations on a theme...).
Thank you for your consideration.
Not so strange. I'm going on 37 and I love Gargoyles too. The show was marketed to our primary target, which was kids ages six to eleven. But we wrote the show to work on multiple levels, to appeal to all age groups. Hell, primarily, I wrote the show to appeal to me. And we're the same age. So, no, I'm not shocked. But I'm glad it worked.
And for my grand FANali:P
Comments on "Thrill of The Hunt" commentary:
I agree with you on how neat it was to see Xanatos actually sit his time out in prison rather then him escaping in the next episode. That holds true for the castle still NOT being the gargs to keep weather they kicked human hiney or not and later on how we kept Elisa on crutches AND gave her a permanent partner. Little details like that were always what made Gargoyles so realistic. Things didnt just Go away. Convinience is not a frase well reflected in the Gargoyles universe (IMO). I also loved this episode cuz..well LEX LEX LEX LEX..does that cover it? He was my favorite character from line One, "Not _afraid_ are you??" And I think that Thom's proformance was excellent, as you said, hats off to J.T. Again, as you pointed out already, it was really nice to see that type of scenario. Usually, the character in question thinks they are right and is wrong and learns the hard way. But in this case, Lex really _IS_ right and bad stuff still happens. We learn the lesson loud and clear at the end of the episode, but inbetween we are forced to really doubletake. Mabey Goliath was right at first, they should stick to Elisa and forget about it for the most part. I really liked that. Though..I kinda feel bad for poor Lex *LOL* It was his biggest moment in the show! Got to stand up to Goliath and give a great speech... poor guy pours his heart and sole into convincing his leader and his clan..and then gets his trust jerked around and his confidence kicked in the butt. *shakes head* ahh well. Now I wonder if he will ever go back to being as trusting with humans. Most likely not if you consider when they brough ColdStone to the Clock Tower. Lex leans in nearer to Goliath as they are gliding home and says something to the point of, "Are you sure we should trust him? He hasnt always been our friend. To invite him into our home, into our clan?". That shows right there that weather its a human or not..his attitude on trusting strangers has definatly changed. Though, the way these guys live, mabey its for the best *shrugs*.
I also got a kick out of your comment about how you were dissapointed with the animation. Your right, we were ALL spoiled with the magnificence that IS "Awakenings". It really was beautiful. But so were the other episodes. Some were drawn better then others, but when you get down to it Gargs had most of the best animation (if not all of it) out there at the time..maybe even now. (IMO) Well, thanks again for another great commentary..boy..episode seven is going to be interesting..Brooklyn seems to always be a hot topic.. *feels a twing of jelously for Lex* Not to say Brook isnt da garg..he _is_;)
You're welcome.
Okay, I happen to have found in my hard disk the questions that had been lost in the crash... In the next few days I will try and repost as many of them as I can...
Thanks.
I'll come out of the closet and admit that I'm a Trio fan, so this may be biased. I felt when Goliath, Angela, and Elisa went on their Avalon quest that the Trio back in Manhattan was very neglected(in terms of air time). This, I thought, was an obviously important time for them (even Hudson probably) as they are finally separated from Goliath. I thought the episode Kingdom wasn't enough to display the changes I felt in them after Goliath returned. What do you think?
I obviously thought that we were featuring the best stories we had in our arsenal at that time. Given an unlimited amount of episodes, I would have loved to have ALSO spent more time on the Trio and Hudson. But that's water under the bridge...
I like your ramble on the Wind Ceremony. It sounds quite beautiful. It also feels extremely relevant to me because as of this writing it's been nearly 3 weeks since the death of my aunt. Her own ashes were scattered from a tackle-box into a river--she always loved fishing.
Probably a silly question, but would you have shown the Wind Ceremony in the series?
Yes. Eventually. But I wasn't in a hurry to kill anyone off.
Condolences on your loss. A cousin of mine died last Friday. He was 43 years old and had a massive heart attack while swimming in a pool with his seven year old son. His own mother dived into the pool to pull him out, but he was already gone. I'm going to the funeral tomorrow. I'm not expecting a Wind Ceremony though.
(I'm not sure why I wrote that.)
Thanks for the Wind Ceremony ramble, Greg. It struck me as another fine example of one of the best qualities of "Gargoyles" (in my opinion): the care that went into creating the gargoyles as an actual race with their own customs and way of life.
Thanks. I've had the Wind Ceremony in my head for awhile. Finally it yelled at me that it was time to come out. Glad you liked it.
RE: Thrill of the Hunt
When I first saw this I was still getting used to the characters myself, so most of the impact this ep had on me came in later viewings.
What I did like in my first viewing was the Pack itself. They were very interesting antagonists to me for some reason. Possibly it was because they were human and managed to give the gargoyles a hard time there for a while. Also, the Xanatos Tag. I almost missed that the first time I watched the show. I thought it was over when the gargoyles went to sleep, so I went to get a drink or snack or something. Then I came back and there's Xanatos talking about how "the test was most...informative [smirk]". I was completely blown away by this (and gained even more respect for how dangerous Xanatos could be). I also remember liking the fact that Xanatos's ownership of the castle was addressed and not swept under the rug. It was refreashing to have previous events being referred to and having an effect on the present.
In later viewings, I found even more things to like. My favorite part in the whole episode is when Goliath and Lex have the advantage. After seeing the Pack mercilessly come after them, I got kind of a vindictive pleasure in having the gargoyles now acting as the silent stalkers. It's kind of like a horror movie almost--only this time you want the "monsters" to win. Come to think of it, I've always gotten a big kick whenever any of the gargoyles were scaring/beating the living tar out of their opponents. I never really thought about how they became "borderline cuddly" as the series progressed. Maybe we all just got familiar with them. But I always liked seeing them cut loose when they did.
As for the whole stunt show--so insanely corny I almost couldn't watch. Great send-up of the P--uh, you-know-whats.
I hadn't given much thought to Wolf's display of brain's or Fox's lapse in judgement until you mentioned them. Fox's is easy to forgive (for reasons you have already stated). Wolf--wow, it surprises me I never noticed it before.
Pointless note: I didn't expect the Pack to appear again after this. I didn't know there were any ideas to bring them back in at any later point, so when Jackal and Hyena showed up about 6 eps later I was surprised (and a bit delighted).
As for the animation, I never saw what the problem with it was. Even after the multiparter, I thought the animation here was still good (at least above the level of quality reached by your average animated show).
Oh, and I agree with you wholeheartedly about television.;-)
I was concerned that the Pack might seem too generic as super-villains, but I think we managed to make them come alive as interesting characters. New stories just kept suggesting themselves, so the Pack keeps coming back.
Greg;
I have a five year old niece, and we happened to find Gargoyles on TV. She loved it, [She hadn't seen it for a time] Then out of the Blue she asked me if I could get a Gargoyle for her. I got here one of my stone statues and she replied, "no; a live one."
He he he. Don't I [And the rest of us] wish. She then asked where they come from. I said it's only on TV. She wanted one bad, I could tell. She asked me one more question...
"Where do they come from?"
I replied that it's a TV show. Someone though up the Idea, and another one made it happen. I told her you were part of the puzzel. [Michael and Franks names escapped me at the time] She said one last thing...
"This is da bestest show ever, and I love Gregy." I thought it was cute, even for a five-year-old. My own Daughter said almost the same thing, but she said you were the gratest man in the world. Go figure Kids. I am sure you can relate. :)
Keep up ALL the good work you do, and thanks for ALL you shakespearean insight.
Thank YOU for taking the time to relate that. I'm glad the show appealed to a more mature audience as well, but I get awful tired of people telling me that it doesn't work for kids. We worked our butts off to make sure the show played on multiple levels. If it didn't work for kids, than we failed. It's nice to know that your niece and daughter enjoyed it.
Hey! I'm new to this site, but I've loved Gargoyles for years; it's a great show.
I was reading through the newest Q's and found someone named Koba Burnett that had posted on the similarities between a character's name and his uncle's. I can point out a few myself:
1. My Shop teacher's name is Lex Greenewinger
2. I know a kid named Marc Travis Marshall
3. My aunt has a tame fox called Fae
4. My girlfriend's name is Elise
5. My last name is Graystone, and my brother's name is Matthew.
Isn't that cool?
cool enough...
About continuing the continuity (you asked for opinions, so here's mine)- I am a bit of a trekie.. treker.. whatever, and I believe that model might work. Certain major parts, eps, a movie or two, are not considered cannon. I realize that Trek has never been a model of consistency, but it does prove what a loyal fandom can accept, and that the word can be gotten out to them about it, (and much of it was pre-internet). I have never seen the animated Star Trek, but I heard it was declared 'non-cannon'. Supposedly they had some very good stories, (poor animation, but good stories) but had mixed in other sci-fi authors' universes that created too much potential confusion. Despite its noncannon status, elements from it- a character's name here, some family background there- worked their way into cannon. On the basis of that I think that you can safely ignore TGC [excepting The Journey]. That is what most fans want anyway. If an aspect or two crosses over into cannon it would be recognized as coming from what you had told them of your master plan, or perhaps even just a idea you thought was good. If you want to distinguish between the two, you can even put a blurb of official acknowledgement in the credits. Obviously TGC would not be shown along with the other eps which might ironically make them sought after- but fans are funny that way.
Yeah. That occured to me too.
I know the Animated Star Trek series isn't cannon. But I had no idea that any of the tv episodes or movies weren't.
Anyway, I'll decide when I have to.
You had asked for people's opinions about your giving away so much. Here is mine. I too have conflicted feelings about reading of upcoming events. I miss out on the chance of surprise as it happens before my eyes. My first watching experience will be more akin to a second watching after a while. I will remember vaguely what will happen, but not exactly when and where. The surprise will be much less, but the story (as do most Gargoyle related events) will hold as a story [most obvious example- I still find Hunters Moon amazing even though I know of all the shocking events]. That said I think it is worth it to let tidbits fall, even if you end up giving away much more than you intended. It keeps people coming to the Ask Greg page, and in turn keeps up interest in the show. Instead of feeling like interest in a finished thing, it constantly reminds us that the stories are still coming. A little addendum; I like the information that sheds greater light on what we've already seen the best. I had feared that you had given most of that away, but then I came across totally new things My favorite so far being, "Good thing we weren't facing Queens."
Yeah, that's kinda my take on it too. Sometimes I let some single piece of info go that I regret. But I need to keep you guys entertained and interested. So I try to set a balance.
dear greg, my last name is burnett, and i have an uncle named owen. they're not at all a like, and we pronounce it "burnet" instead of "bur-nett", but it's a cool coincidence, since i like gargs so much. puck, and owen after him, are my fav char's.
Cool.
REAWAKENING
I really do like this one--maybe just because I have an affinity for cyborgs. At any rate, I was quite glad that we got intro'd to a gargoyle who DID die in the massacre. Yeah, sure he was brought back, but mentally putting that scene in the multi-parter adds another dimension of tragedy to the massacre.
I can more than understand the problem with seeing Xanatos and Demona looking at a monitor one moment, then appearing in Times Square about 3 seconds later. At times like these, I do the only thing I can do: rationalize. I make-believe X and D were in some odd, high-tech, bus-like vehicle (mobile control unit, anyone). It's silly, but it works for me.
Another animation note--in addition to Hudson's sword--when Brooklyn tackles Demona they are below the top cables of the bridge, and before they hit the ground they fall onto and bounce off...the top cables of the bridge. Oh well, the confrontation is still too great for that little bit to ruin.
Oddly enough, I don't mind Elisa's little crack about the size of her car. I actually find it an amusing, sarcastic beat. And yeah, the scarf and gloves are nice.
And of course, there is an abundance of funny lines. In addition to the bit with "Bambi" and Xanatos' fulfillment of a life-long dream ("It's alive! ALIVE!!"), I just love Morgan's little response to Elisa's "There must be something we can do."
Morgan: "I don't think so. Unless you're packing a nuclear weapon." I can see why you keep bringing this guy back--he's a wonderful character.
Coldstone> I was glad Micheal Dorn did a voice on the show. I mean, just listen to the guy! Coldstone himself made for some memorable moments. I noticed that you guys didn't put the "underwater respirator" on him as the memo stipulated. What changed you guys' minds?
The look into Gargoyle culture here was also quite welcome. A nice touch that the gargoyles did not "officially" become crime-fighters until the end of the first season. Kind of more organic and unique than most series that just intro a group of non-human heroes and have them be crime-fighters more or less from day one. And the differences in opinion of the gargoylean proverb between the characters was a nice use of the ep's theme. Goliath's quandry here is quite compelling.
Finally, just one question dealing with the memo. You made mention of a Madame Serena. Who was she?
Re: Underwater respirator. We realized that Coldstone wasn't technically alive. He didn't need an underwater respirator, because he was living stone (or living organic substance that resembles stone) brought back to life. He requires a power source. Oxygen is only necessary for speech, and maybe not even that.
Re: Madame Serena. I'm not sure I remember. She was a character that appeared in the first draft of the outline Michael gave us. She was some kinda psychic or gypsey or witch (or all of the above). But she didn't, in my opinion, fit into this story. And I guess we all quickly forgot about her. The thing is I can't check. I have my notes on Michael's outline, but I didn't keep his outline, so I can't go back to see what exact role Michael had in mind for her. Guess, you'll have to ask him.
ENTER MACBETH
Despite the animation (which even I must admit is sub-par for what I expected of "Gargoyles") this is one of my favorite episodes to watch. When I saw this, I had long ago seen a (very amatuer) performance of the play (heavily abridged of course--it was done by elementary schoolers). So naturally, the title immediately grabbed my attention. When Macbeth first appeared and spoke, my first thought was, "Is that Sean Connery's voice?" But I was still hooked on this character. His style, his equipment, and the fact that he knew about the gargoyles. The revelation of his connection to Demona--hell, the admission that he named her--just really drew me deeper into the character. And his final fight with Goliath, and the escape from his coat...I was eager for him to return.
I also liked some of the comedy snuck into this ep. Brooklyn's little bit with the electric bars, or his and Lex's reactions when they hear Goliath's roars reverbrating throughout the castle. Just wonderful. And in later viewings, I noticed more of Xanatos' prison life. I mean, look at his cell! The things one can do with some money. There's also his wonderful line in the cafeteria, "Just like mom used to make. If mom was a prison cook." He calls his term there, "a learning experience." What exactly did he learn--not to get caught again?
Then there's Owen. It really blew me away how he handled Hudson and Broadway's attempt to take the Grimorum. Too bad he didn't pay any attention to the party on crutches.
On that note, I cannot tell you how glad I was that you guys put Elisa on crutches. I was getting quite use to the continuity of the series, and I had developed a taste for it. Maybe that's why I wasn't shocked that the gargoyles had to move out of the castle--common-sense (at least from the audience perspective) dictates that they HAD to leave. Not to mention that such an action was in keeping with the feeling I got from the series. Bottom line: It made sense.
I just didn't expect them to end up in a clocktower. Just love the juxtuposition of Xanatos' cheery home-coming with the gargoyles' somber-but-hopeful relocation.
THERE! I think I've recovered my lost ground (and then some).
Thanks for taking the time to post twice. Believe me, I know what a pain it is.
DEADLY FORCE
I missed the first few minutes of this the first time it ran. I came in on Broadway in the movie theatre, but I was able to pick up what was going on. When I did see the first few minutes...I was already impressed with Owen because I had seen him in ENTER MACBETH. Regardless, I still think he ROCKS in how he handles the attack. The way he takes out one of those goons...coolness.
Bruno--didn't notice him the first few times. But when I did, I liked the touch.
And then the end of Act I. When I saw Broadway watching the movie, I figured out what the ep would deal with. When I saw Elisa leave her gun out, I figured that Broadway would play with it and that she would be hurt. I DID NOT expect her to be hurt to the point of unconciousness. I really appreciated the realism in this. Yeah, you couldn't let her die, but at least you had her flat-line.
Dracon and Glasses had some style--Dracon especially in his confrontation with Elisa.
I love Goliath and Broadway's respective rampages. You're right, Broadway indeed presents a fearsome force when angered. That fight at the end...excellent. I, too, notice that the gargoyles seem to have more edge in these early eps, and I like it. I've always enjoyed monstrous heroes of the night, so to speak.
Broadway's reaction to shooting Elisa, and his accepting responsibility for it really speak to me.
Goliath destroying the guns> I've always wondered if, at the back of his mind, Goliath got a small kick out of destroying Xanatos' property. I'm not saying it was his main intent, but maybe sort of a "bonus."
The family Maza and Capt. Chavez were also touches I liked, and I'm glad this wasn't their only appearance. A wonderful cast. And in later viewings, I did recognize Matt as Chavez's driver. Just another thing to smile about.
Yeah, I noticed Goliath's feelings for Elisa here, too. I especially love their last moment together, when Elisa calls his name and he strokes her hair saying, "Shh. Rest now. You are safe." So beautiful.
Yeah.... <insert big goofy grin here>
Repost of THRILL OF THE HUNT thoughts.
I also was still getting used to the characters in this episode, so I didn't notice a lot of the little things you mentioned until later viewings.
Now that you mention it, Wolf did seem to display a bit more cunning in this episode than usual. Fox taking the hostage I could definitely see as "floundering for a life preserver" if you will. In fact I did find the Pack quite appealing in this. Maybe because they were a unique type of enemy I didn't normally see animated action heroes fighting. I liked their style and the fact that they had fairly individual personalities. And for some reason, I think I found it fitting that in this episode Wolf was the last to fall. Actually, at this time I thought the Pack were just some one-shot villains (I missed the first part of the Tag, see below) and so was quite pleasantly surprised when Jackal and Hyena returned several eps later.
I was also glad that you guys didn't just sweep Xanatos going to prison under the rug, or the danger he posed to the gargoyles. And the stunt show and kids scenes are so wonderfully ironic.
I almost didn't see the Xanatos Tag the first time. After the gargoyles went to sleep, I think I went to get a drink or something, and then I came back and saw Xanatos in prison talking about how the "Test was most...informative" and giving his smirk. I was blown away to see he was behind it and still a menace even IN prison. The show gained even more respect in my eyes. And how about Owen, huh?
In later viewings, I took especial note of Owen's first few lines in the episode. A villain who "is not the sort to harbor a grudge"--you don't find many of those. Then there's when Goliath and Lex become the hunters to the Pack's prey. I just love how Hyena is taken out without even a sound. Then Dingo's swooped away, and we only see Goliath take out Jackal as shadows. Kind of like a horror movie, only the monsters are the good guys.
I hadn't noticed the change in POV before, but you're right, it is VERY effective. And in later viewings, I noticed Lexington made valid point. He just tried with the wrong people this time.
Yep. We were pretty slick. :)
Because my ramble-replies to "Temptation", "Deadly Force", and "Enter Macbeth" were all lost in the recent crash, I'm sending reconstructed versions in again. This one's for "Temptation".
One thing that I really like about this episode is Demona's development. She's in the wrong, but she's convincingly in the wrong, as she explains why humans will never accept gargoyles. Even Goliath has to admit at the end that what she told Brooklyn about humans is partly (but only partly) true. It's part of what makes her such an effective villain.
At the same time, Elisa shows at the end, by her loyalty to the clan, and her cleverness in finding a way of freeing Goliath from the spell, that not all humans are evil or anti-gargoyle, an important point. (That's why I don't really mind Elisa's means of freeing Goliath, even if it is, as you mentioned, borderline "cheating". The reward that came from showing that some humans could help gargoyles more than outweighed the problem in question). Merely showing Demona to be treacherous and scheming wouldn't be enough to counter her arguments.
And Brooklyn comes across very sympathetically, too. I liked your analysis of his behavior in this episode.
The Cloisters bit is one of my favorite parts, especially where Brooklyn talked about it being so much like "the world that we came from". (And no, I didn't think that that meant that the gargoyles were aliens; I understood that he was talking about medieval Scotland). That part clicked for me because of my (mentioned before) fondness for things relating to the Middle Ages.
And I was amused by your little bit about the motorcycle. Between that and the "garg-chopper" in "Her Brother's Keeper", it's pretty clear that the gargoyles' vehicles never seem to last very long. (Not that that's really surprising; as Goliath pointed out in "Protection", gargoyles supply their own transportation, which makes fancy motorcycles and aircraft for them pretty much redundant).
(I take it that the "Eye of the Storm" "suggested toy" that you eluded to was Goliath in his "Odinic" form?)
THUNDER STORM GOLIATH, or something like that, yeah. I think they wound up making Hudson or someone else the Thunder Storm Toy. (I remember Brooklyn was ice storm.) Oh, well.
Hey Greg, sorry to hear about your troubles with the crash on the weekend of April 16th. It also seems that approximately 7 days of questions and replys to your rambles on THRILL OF THE HUNT, TEMPTATION, DEADLY FORCE, and ENTER MACBETH have also been lost.
That being said, I shall try to repost my own thoughts (as near as I can recreate them) on each of these in the next few days.
Here's hoping no more gets lost in the future.
(Didn't Aris find and repost that stuff?)
Hi Greg!
Have you heard about the movie Frequency? It looked interesting to me because it presents the *other* theory of time-travel: what if you *could* change the past? From the previews, the theory doesn't seem to make any sense... it's the whole Back to the Future thing again: people disappearing from photos etc. (doesn't mean it doesn't look like a good movie though...)
It just seemed to reinforce the accuracy of the rules of the Phoenix Gate...
I've heard of Frequency, but I haven't seen it.
Hello Greg:)
I just read your lil ramble that mentioned how they pulled the switch-a-roo when airing Bonkers. I just thought I'd put down a comment or two on that since I loved watching the show. Now that I know Meranda (?sp?) was supposed to be the ONLY partner for Bonkers, I can see your point of view. That really rips that they took the original and just kinda stuck it in later as an after thought.<--(one word or two?? scratches head) But when the show was still airing new episodes I have to tell you, when they suddenly stuck in a new parter and we all said goodbye to Lucky I was pleasantly surprised. This wasn't because I didn't like Lucky, I just loved the idea that they had no problem with taking out a main character and just replacing him like nothing had happened. They sub'ed Meranda in..and life just went on. The episodes IMO were still good. I guess what I'm trying to say here is..when they took Lucky away and added Meranda, It never came off to me as "Oh geez, their getting lazy..so who's this blond chick??" It didn't _feel_ like I was getting some second hand idea shoved in my face. I considered both partners and the episodes they generated to be well done. I really can't say which I liked better. It wasn't like here comes this new character and things went down hill. Part of the reason I loved the switch. It just appealed to me seeing that a show had the guts to mess with MAIN characters like that and still come back at you with, IMO, good episodes. I believe that to be one of the main reasons Gargoyles was so awsome. Like life, things change. I dunno...just thought I'd mention that to you:) Seeya!!
Lexy
Yeah, I guess. But it wasn't really like that. It wasn't bravery or guts, it was fear and panic that created that situation. I don't pretend to be objective about the Piquel run of Bonkers -- anymore than I can pretend to be objective about Goliath Chronicles -- but the show was never the same for me.
Okay, I've been reading everyone else's comments on "Awakening, Parts 1-5," so I finally decided to give it a go. When I first saw the commercials for "Gargoyles" way back in 1994, I had absolutely no idea what the show was supposed to be about. Neither did my brother. But hey, it was on the Disney Afternoon, which we both loved, so why not try it out? That's what we were thinking when we tuned in and watched Part 1.
My first impression? I couldn't tell whose side I was on. We were in this big battle with evil Vikings attacking on one side, and scary-but-cool-looking flying monsters on the other. As the fight went on, especially with Goliath and Demona kicking Viking ass, it was still hard to tell if the show was called "Gargoyles" because it was going to be about monsters terrorizing everybody in sight.
But I was curious to find out what was going on, and as the half-hour progressed it was easy to see that the Gargoyles were noble creatures who were being unfairly treated by the humans. The humans saw them as monsters, just like I initially had, when all they were doing was protecting them from harm. I really felt bad for the clan when I learned this, and I admired Goliath for his wisdom in dealing with the Princess (it's funny how he can be so hot-tempered about some things yet so patient about others, like waiting for acceptance from the humans).
The bottom line? By the time the episode was over, I was hooked. I cared about these characters, and I wanted to know what was going to happen to them. I thought the animation was great and the story was soooo cool, and I wanted more. I could already see that this show was going to be different from any other cartoon I had seen. It was like a sophisticated and engrossing novel, and I was annoyed that I couldn't just read on and find answers to my questions (Is that red-haired gargoyle really dead since she's in the opening theme? Are the gargoyles responsible for those explosions at that skyscraper? How'd they get there anyway?).
So thanks for the great opening. You got me, my brother, and my mom hooked from the very beginning, which is what good storytelling does. I watched the rest of the show religously, and I was never disappointed. I just hope we haven't seen the last of "Gargoyles," because there's so many stories left to tell in this novel of yours.
Thanks for the kind words. It's good to know we did our jobs, and that you (and you're whole family responded).
My "Deadly Force" "reply-ramble".
Your ramble on this story was good. I honestly don't remember my response to first seeing it that well, beyond some shock at Elisa's fate at the end of Act I. I agree, however, that it was very effective drama, and a great story.
(About your admission that it was a bit dishonest to have Elisa survive but that you just weren't ready to have her die yet, I can certainly agree with you about the latter particularly. Truth to tell, after analyzing the situation for the clan at the time, I'd definitely say that if Elisa had died, the gargoyles would have been in serious trouble, given that she was the only human whom they were on friendly terms with at the time. The only other humans that they knew by that point were Xanatos and the Pack, who were their enemies - and Owen (though, as it turns out in Season Two, he's a borderline case as a human), who is too loyal to Xanatos to hide them from him. With Elisa dead, they'd have had no new home such as the clock tower ready when Xanatos drove them out of the castle, and things would have gotten almost hopeless; it would certainly have made for a very short series. So I don't blame you for having Elisa survive; she had to for the series' sake).
I agree that Broadway's well-handled in that one, and certainly does not come across as a mere "garbage disposal with wings" :) (The scene of him weeping on the building, and of him yelling at the mugger in Central Park, "What's this? A new kind of gun? A new way to kill people?" are ones that I especially found memorable). Nice job of highlighting him.
Two other little notes about this ep, both which I find rather amusing. One is the way that Owen pronounces "power ranges" when he's describing the stolen particle beam accelarators to Elisa and Chavez; a bit of a dig at the competition there, eh? The other is that the last two times that I watched this episode on tape, when Cagney meowed at Elisa, my own cat sat up at attention for a moment upon hearing it. (I always rather liked Cagney; I'm quite fond of cats, in fact).
My cats, as far as I know, have never taken any real notice of Cagney. Nor has my dog of Bronx.
An additional little thought, inspired by your comparing Coldstone to the Frankenstein monster. As somebody who's read the original book by Mary Shelley, and quite liked it, I feel that while Coldstone certainly has a strong echo of the monster in him, as you've pointed out, I feel that Goliath does as well, although more in a contrast than in a similarity.
Like the monster (as portrayed by Mary Shelley in her book; alas for the way that Hollywood weakened the character by turning him into a mute, shuffling brute), Goliath is a noble being who appears threatening towards humans and is shunned and feared by so many humans whom he seeks to help. Also like the monster, Goliath is a thoughtful and eloquent being, and well-read with a taste for the classics (the Frankenstein monster reads Plutarch's Lives and Milton's "Paradise Lost", while Goliath reads Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky). The big difference is that the Frankenstein monster is all alone, with nobody to befriend him, and becomes embittered towards humanity thus, while Goliath has the clan and Elisa, which undoubtedly helps him. They're almost foils, in a sense. (Of course, Goliath also isn't an artificial creation, either, as the monster was). Just a little thought that had occurred to me.
I like that analysis. Very sweet.
By the way, it always blew me away that the VERY FIRST BOOK the Monster ever read in "FRANKENSTEIN" was Milton's Paradise Lost. I hadn't read FRANKENSTEIN until college, and also not until after I had read Paradise Lost. (Of course, I knew the basics of both stories long before I actually read the books.)
I couldn't imagine having to teach myself to read with PARADISE LOST. Not exactly FUN WITH DICK AND JANE or Doctor Seuss, you know?
Ah, at last the "Re-Awakening" ramble. It was well worth the wait, too.
One thought that I've recently had on Coldstone: I wonder if any of us, living in the end of the 20th century, can fully comprehend the horror that his cybernetic condition must have held for him when he was first "re-awakened" by Xanatos and Demona in this episode. For any of us, waking up and discovering that we'd been turned into a cyborg would certainly be a horrifying enough experience. But Coldstone's experience is all the worse, at least, IMHO, because of one simple factor: cybernetics are completely beyond the world-view of anybody born (or hatched, in this case) and raised in the 10th century. He wouldn't know what they were, beyond just some strange form of magic. All that he can know is that something utterly alien, beyond his comprehension, has become part of him. I thought that the episode did a good job of displaying his horrified response to his transformation (especially the part where he uses that blaster built into his arm for the first time and is staring at it in shock and horror).
I'd also spotted some of the parallels with "Awakening", including the bit about how Goliath pronounced "detective". And I certainly agree with you that, if "Gargoyles" had ended there, "Re-Awakening" would have given it a great series finale. (Of course, you got to do another 52 episodes, all the way up to "Hunter's Moon", an even better "might-have-been" series finale, but that's another story).
I also liked your pointing out about how the gargoyles' thoughts on protection, and its evolution into protecting Manhattan, were handled in this story.
A couple of minor parts that I particularly like in this episode:
1. The way that Xanatos glares at Demona when she introduces him to Coldstone as her servant.
2. The "explosions in Bambi" bit.
3. And the very resurrection of Coldstone, which is one of my favorite "special-effects" sequences in "Gargoyles".
(Sometimes knowing makes something MORE horrific.)
Ignorance, I would think, puts a ceiling on horror. Ramifications may add terror. Which is not to say that Coldstone wasn't thoroughly horrified. But like you said, to him it was just ghastly magic. If it happened to us, well, I'm not sure it wouldn't be worse.
TEMPTATION (revisited)
Although this wasn't the episode that cemented Brooklyn as my favorite character, it was still one I found compelling. And your right, he is cool--especially in the Act I fight. Yeah, the fact that he wasn't in shadow and you could see his snout does detract from the scene somewhat, but then the bikers were wearing sunglasses at night. Come to think of it, a few of them didn't even seem to be wearing helmets....
Anyway, I'm glad the little touches you guys used in this ep--Demona's comments on the past centuries, the reference to the previous episode, the DEAD BODY. That last one especially. I would never have dreamed of seeing it even hinted at in an animated afternoon show. Marina Sirtis and Jeff Bennett really did a good job with their characters here.
Elisa's finger--oh, great. Now when I watch the scene again I'll look for it and probably not be able to see anything else again.
On the subject of animation, for both this and the last episode I liked them just fine. It was far better animation than what I was used to, that's for sure.
I never thought that Brooklyn's remark about "the world we came from" referred to an alien planet. Why do so many people insist that gargoyles be aliens?
I especially like Brooklyn in the final Act--his outrage against Demona, his cunning, and his lines!
"I was a FOOL to trust you!"
"You hold the book Demona, but *I* hold the spell!"
His acceptance of his fault in the scheme I find quite gallant.
As for how they "free" Goliath of the spell, yeah I guess it is a cheat. HOWEVER, I have not seen any other show defeat a "mind-control spell" in the same way. So kudos to you guys for originality at least.
Thanks. A lot of credit should of course go to Michael Reaves. Michael and I were like a well-oiled machine right out of the gate. We really were in sync with each other. He made that part of my job (overseeing the writing on the first season) a pleasure.
My ramble-reply on "Enter Macbeth".
Well, now we know the reason for the delay on this one. I really liked this episode, particularly on account of the name. I've always been quite fond of Shakespeare's "Macbeth", and so the title grabbed my attention at once. I don't know if I'd even suspected that Macbeth was *the* Macbeth (not until "City of Stone" came out), but I found his name very intriguing, and the character as well. Mac's one of my favorite characters in "Gargoyles", in fact. (And "Macbeth" certainly strikes me as the most appropriate Shakespeare play to get into "Gargoyles", in view of Goliath and his clan being Scottish).
I honestly don't recall how I responded to the gargoyles moving out of the castle, the first time that I saw it. Except that I was a bit sorry, since I liked Castle Wyvern. But at the same time, I understood that it was necessary to do so, and the clock tower made a good home for them.
(Truth to tell, I can understand, and sympathize with, Goliath's reluctance to leave the castle. For one thing, having moved twice in the last five years, I know that it's not an easy thing to just move to a new home; it's difficult to tear oneself away from a place that you've been living in for quite a while. Also, as Goliath pointed out, the castle was the only link that the clan had left (except for themselves) to the 10th century. Take away that, and they'd be feeling entirely stranded in the modern world. Plus, I've always liked castles, which gives me a further bias there).
(I very much liked Macbeth's home as well, with its very medieval atmosphere - particularly the suits of armor and swords - almost like the armory displays in the Tower of London - and thought it a bit of a pity that the place burnt down).
You've moved twice in the last five years, and I still can't get you to attend a GATHERING. Geez.
So, what's *your* guess at the real identity of Todd?
Guesses among the fandom vary: Merlin, Duval, you, your evil twin, God Allmighty, 42, a huge red dragon, a Vorlon (Babylon 5 reference btw), CrzyDemona's time-travelling son, the random typings of Gore's cat, and a figment of our imaginations, have all been suggested... :-)
Uh...
Well, I know he's not me. He seems to know a hell of a lot more -- about a lot of subjects I'm interested in -- than I do.
But he hasn't left St. Louis in seven years. Hmmm. I haven't been to St. Louis in at least seven years.
Wait! I've got it! He's Todd Jensen.
A ramble about your pet peeve:
Greg, I would have to totally agree with you on that one. It seems to me, that many people grow up believing that it is ok, to put others down, to prove a point.
I grew up, believing (and still believe) that everyone is equal. I have seen REAL people hurt, by REAL comments that were intended to make others look good. (This is how rumors start as well, it seems [another taboo in my book]). Reputations are ruined and friends once had, are lost.
It just really seems to be a waste of time. I see in a lot of this in the Gargoyle chat rooms, where people constantly compare their art to another fan's (even I am guilty of this). It seems a shame to see that people do not give themselves or others the credit they truly deserve as individuals. What I mean is, if we all were not different, then this world would be one boring place.
So I guess I am just rambling, that instead of belittling others (and ourselves), we should look for the good and beautiful things in everything around us. Make life a positive experience rather than a negative one!
Ok, I hope that was organized enough to be understandable.... I would have thought about it before writing it, but I didn't want to wait, in case I ended up forgetting to respond. I guess it is something I have always felt strongly about. I am glad you feel the same.
Just a note: I think Erin and Ben are lucky to have a dad like you!
Thanks. Though the truth is I'm beyond lucky to have them.
Hey Greg!
Read your ramble (or rant, as you may prefer) on comparisons. I myself noticed the same thing a while back. Some of the most fervent "Goliath-bashers" were ususally devotees of Demona or Brooklyn.
Truthfully, doing this kind of thing always did strike me as unfair to the characters of the show. I mean, you and everybody else wrote these characters like "people" and not as, say, selling points for action figures (which could put ME on a rant, but I digress...). The depth of the characters was part of the reason why I did not favor ANY of the characters during the first season--I liked them all more or less equally.
Regardless, I never in my life expected to hear you rant on the subject. (shudder) I wouldn't want you mad at me!
Yeah, I'm a terror all right.
Actually, I don't have any problem with one person having a preference for a certain character over another character. It just seemed to me that there were one or two people posting (not just Goliath-bashers either) who felt that the best way to glorify they're preference was to badmouth someone elses.
It's not a crime, I guess. I just find it divisive. And annoying.
This is more of a comment than a ramble, but here you go. :)
I've always admired Goliath. Not only is he handsome, seven feet tall and very strong, but he's much more. He's loving, caring, and so romantic. The way he talks, the way he smiles (when he does) the way he looks at Elisa, the way he touches her hair. Like in the episode "Deadly Force." He almost fell off the castle when Owen told him the bad news. How he almost killed Dracon seeking for revenge.
He is so romantic, it's like he carefully looks for the perfect thing to say all the time. I just love him.
Not only is he loving and caring, but he is intelligent, in his own special way. He may not understand this new world in its entirety, but he does, and he's learning fast. That's one thing I've always admired about him, he's a fast-learner, even Thailog complimented him on that in "Sanctuary."
But that temper. Anything ticks him off. If he could just learn to control it, I think he'd be perfect. For example, "Enter Macbeth," when he found Elisa, Hudson and Broadway outside the castle, and when Elisa told him about "their new home." He was furious, he even screamed at her. "How dare you!?!" Broadway had to pitch in to knock some sense into him, but he still wouldn't listen. That was, until Hudson spoke. He respects Hudson, and that's obvious, but he still couldn't help but roar to the night. And how everyone gasped at that, wow. Great episode.
Back to Goliath. Umm, what else can I say about him? Oh, he can dance. :) And beautifully, may I add. "Eye of the Beholder" is one of my favorite episodes, the way they danced. The way he bowed to her, the way he twirled her. Wow. I've lost count of all the times I've hit the rewind button to watch that scene all over. :)
His sense of honor. He waited for Odin to get up to strike again. He even stopped Demona from dropping a human to a certain death. He lost Demona for struggling to do what was right. Wow.
His manners. He bowed to the Princess even if she had called him and his kind "beasts." It wasn't stern, it wasn't sarcasm, he really meant it. He left the Princess speechless with his manners.
His vocabulary. The only thing close to a curse he's ever said is "Jalapena," and that's not even a curse. He barely uses contractions, too. For example, he says "cannot" instead of "can't." He is so nice. I just love his way of speaking.
His skill, that's one thing I love of him. That's why the Pack wanted to hunt him, Lexington just came in as a bonus, they wanted the excersise, they wanted a thrill. And Goliath was just it. But he beat them, with the help of Lexington.
Oh, yeah, his looks. :) That's the first thing I noticed about him. After thoroughly analyzing the episodes, I realized that he's more than good looks. But back to it, he is handsome. There's no denying that. Elisa literally fell for him the first time she saw him. :) I still don't understand how his hair stands uop like that, but it still makes him very handsome.
His colors are great, too. I mean, he's not dark, nor too light. The colors just suit him. That lavender skin, with that brown hair blue and black wings. Wow. :)
The way he smiles, the way he walks, the way he speaks... it's just so unique. Not even Thailog's like him, and he's a clone. :)
I sound a like a huge fan, don't I? Well, I am, I've always been, and I will always be a huge fan. :)
BTW, I saw somewhere that Goliath had mutliple spikes coming from his arms, and also the tip of his tail ended like Ottello's before he was changed to the way he is now. but a ball or something. Anyway, who changed those features? And why? I think they made him very distinctive.
So, that's all for now. :P I think... there's much more I like about him. Anyway, thank you for your time!
-A devoted fan
Wow. An ode.
I like him too. But credit where credit is due, a lot of people were involved in Goliath's creation.
First and foremost, Greg Guler, who created the basic design that our current Goliath is based on. Frank Paur chose to streamline that design so that our animators had the best possible chance of animating him consistently and well.
Numerous other artists both here in L.A. and in Japan also contributed. There's one guy in particular in Japan, who jumped on and made a pass in between Greg and Frank. His name, I think, is Mr. Takeuchi. But I'm not 100% sure, and I can't check my files at this moment. My apologies if I've gotten that wrong. (I only ever met him once.)
Then, of course, the writers. Michael Reaves, Brynne Chandler Reaves, Gary Sperling, Cary Bates, Lydia Marano, Steve Perry and others. They captured his voice.
And actor Keith David, who really brought life into that voice. I can't say enough about Keith's talent, training and natural abilities. But I will say that Keith is also a big fan of Goliath's. That may sound strange, but he's said to me that he admires many of the qualities that you listed above. He became a real watchdog (particularly on Goliath Chronicles) to make sure that Goliath sounded like Goliath in voice and in diction. Of course, I also need to credit Jamie Thomason, our voice director. He and Keith made Goliath sound like Goliath.
And Paca Thomas at Advantage Audio who created the growls and roars to supplement Keith's work.
The list is endless, but that's a partial attempt. I'm proud to be one of that group of many.
Greg, no kudos for you! ;)
Seriously, the movie's called Dead Again, a beautiful piece of film noir starring Kenneth Branagh, Emma Thompson, Derek Jacoby, and an uncredited Robin Williams.
I'd recommend it highly.
I've seen the movie. What's this post in reference too?
(GUYS, keep in mind that there's currently a three month delay between when you are posting and when I finally see the post and can answer. Don't assume I'll remember our last exchange. You're giving me too much credit.)
I'd like to quickly discuss my feelings about "Awakenings" First of all I didn't watch the show till around "Enter Macbeth" Yup, got a little behind. But I caught the rerun of the first episode and wow it blew me away. I love the animation for that one the most, at least at this momment. About Demona, I knew she wasn't dead, obviously since I started late watching, but I wanted to say even though I hadn't watched the series from the start, I think Demona wasn't shadowed enough in Xanatos' office. Kinda premature re-veiling( I think that's the right word...) of the character. (my 2 cents on that)Now I don't mind the whole " I am demona" I kind of felt "So what?" but what was great was the reddish smoke effect around her, that spiced it up nicely.
To share my personal favorite scenes would have to be Just watching Goliath was fun. He looked so cool. Keith David is just amazing. I couldn't imagine another voice for Goliath. He is a unique man (Mr. David, in my opinion) I also love the caped wings. It looks fantastic when Goliath quickly drapes his wings when he talks to the Princess and Magus about the eggs. Oooh cool! Also after Demona said "Wrong, you've lost it all," the back shot of him lifting his wings up fast to intimidate the guy on the airship before using his tail to smack him. And The whole Goliath Elisa scene where they talk while standing on the Empire state building was just priceless to me. Well my favorites are all but too endless so I'll end this here. Thanks for your time.
My quick question. Just out of curiousity,what is Officer Morgan's first name?
Morgan. His name, as I've mentioned before is Officer Morgan Morgan. He's named after a guy I went to high school with who's full name was Morgan Lord Morgan III. (I didn't know this guy well, but his name always fascinated me.)
And thanks for the kind words.
Hi, Greg. Here's my own ramble of things I love about Gargoyles. I found the show my senior year of high school and was hooked. And when Fox moved the second season episodes to 6 a.m., my handy VCR timer was always set. My college roommate soon became a Gargoyles fan too. On to the elements.
The shocks and surprises: I loved the way the smaller story lines worked into the larger ones. I know you're a long ways from talking about "The Gathering" but I'm starting there, sorry. I saw/heard that Kate Mulgrew was doing both Anastasia and Titania's voice without much difference, so I knew they were one in the same. But my congratulating myself on figuring that out stopped and I almost fell out of my chair when Owen was revealed to be Puck. My best friend DID fall out of his chair when I was showing him and his wife the episode. Going back to season one, actual blood was shown when Broadway shot Elisa! In a Disney cartoon! And when I told people about this, they didn't believe me. Derek goes to work for Xanatos and is mutated for ignoring his sister's advice. Fox and Xanatos got married. I caught the "she's totally in love with him" in "Her Brother's Keeper", but I didn't expect them to get married--live together maybe.
Elisa: Thank you for creating such a great female character. Tough, smart, and still a beautiful woman. She could have de-evolved from "Awakenings" into the helpless female that the gargoyles had to rescue every week (and part of me worried that it could happen), but instead she ended up saving them as often as they saved her. And who else would have had the guts to wake King Arthur up? But she isn't a superhero. She has problems dealing with her mother and brother, she gets hurt, and she gets a little obsessive.
Intelligent bad guys: I suppose more accurately stated is bad guys with intelligent motivations. Demona has psychological hang-ups that culminate in her desire to wipe out the human race. Xanatos is just fun. How many series villians never let revenge get in their way? Plus, he had most of the best lines. My favorite: "This is my first stab at cliched villanry. How am I doing?" from "Cloud Fathers". Thailog seems to have this Oedipal need to displace Xanatos in the world.
Characters evolve: No one remained static. Demona's downward spiral was shown, but it has the potential to end by her desire to protect and love Angela. Xanatos and Fox fall in love and have a child, and apparantly learn what it means to have someone manipulate your life, something they're both a little guilty of. Macbeth realize that the gargoyles are as honorable as he is, and finds a new purpose to life. I love his debate with Margot in "The Journey". The Pack gets their upgrade. Cameo characters get stories and prove that the six degrees of seperation works in the gargoyle universe too.
References: Shakespeare's plays; Scottish history; Eygptian, Irish, Norse, Greek, African, Jewish, King Arthur mythologies, pop culture, World War II, Loch Ness, aliens, werewolves, and fae. I was waiting for vampires to show up. Okay, maybe not real vampires, but Servarius could make some. It was great to watch a show that used this stuff inside its own mythos and used it effectively.
That's just a few of the things that I loved about the show. Artwork was excellent and dialogue was wonderfully written and flawlessly performed. Here's my hope, wish, spell, prayer that GARGOYLES comes back to the air with you at the helm. And one quick question before I go find the episode rambles I've missed.
Question: Did you or do you plan on a flashback or a TimeDancer episode in which Will Shakespeare shows up as a character?
To Will or not to Will, that IS the question.
To be honest, the idea intimidated the hell out of me. I have more than one idea about Will's role in the Garg Universe, specifically with regard to Macbeth and Oberon/Titania/Mab/Puck/etc. But I don't know if I would have done it. Neil Gaiman already did something like that with "Midsummer Night's Dream" in SANDMAN, and if that wasn't intimidating enough, WILL himself looms.
And yet, if you're afraid to do something, that probably means that you should. I loved SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE, and on one level, it should increase the intimidation level. I mean it's Tom Stoppard for God's sake. But it showed me a window into how to interpret Will as a man. So I like to think I would have gone for it.
(And by the way, thanks for your kind words on all the other stuff. It's particularly gratifying because it was our intent. We lucked out all over the place. But the stuff you mentioned was all part of the plan. I'm glad we managed to pull it off, for you at least.)
Okay, I went back an read your rambles on the episodes (Awakenings - Her Brother's Keeper). You felt the moment when Demona revealed her name lacked punch. It did, for me at least, but not because of the scene itself. From the beginning of Awakenings, the gargoyles had a dangerous edge but Demona was the one with the least control over hers. The scene with the Trio decides to scare the peasants, I knew they were "just picking" (even though it was picking that could have gotten dangerously out of hand). But Demona acted like if she could have found an excuse to rip the throat out of Tom's mother, she would have. By Awakenings Part 5, it's chillingly apparant just how ruthless and demonic Demona has become. Besides, it's a great twist on Goliath's earlier name of affection/endearment, Angel of the Night. Angel=light, darkness=night, demon=fallen angel=darkness=night. The scene became one of those moments when everything felt RIGHT. Of course, what else could you name her? moment. The question was just how long ago was she given the name.
When I first saw the expression on Demona's face when she and Goliath reunited in 1994, I sat up. Yeah, she was glad to see Goliath but she was angry too. My thought first seeing it was "Poor Goliath, nothing good is going to come from this." Looking back now, knowing Demona's history, I have to ask did she read the Magus's version of events from the Grimorum? If the Magus recorded things fairly accurately, then she had to realize that Goliath chose suicide instead of trying to raise the eggs alone. If he had stayed with the eggs, she would have returned with a story Goliath would have swallowed and they could have raised the eggs together. She never would have created the Hunter, she never would have met Macbeth, she never would have made the deal with the Weird Sisters, she would have died centuries ago. And in that moment of reuniting, Demona blames Goliath for all of it. She buries it quickly cause she wants to give him a chance to realize why her way is the only way, but it still there. Wow, all that from one line of dialogue.
There's my feedback for the day. Caio.
Very cool analysis. I like that second paragraph particularly. I hadn't thought of Demona blaming Goliath then-and-there for all of that. Very cool.
'REAWAKENING' comments.
At the time of writing, you haven't commented on this yet, but while I'm talking about the first season I ought to finish speaking about it.
And the big thing I remember about it is - I didn't like it.
Coldstone just doesn't appeal to me. I don't think any of his personalities are *that* fascinating, and the "it's alive!" line makes me wince all the time. Xanatos and Demona are just stock villains and don't show much of the individuality that is so evident in later episodes.
There are a few nice bits. The scene as Goliath is drowning. Goliath's vow to protect. The rounded section with that thief.
But all things considered, I wasn't that impressed.
It didn't matter; the first time I saw this, there was an advert for 'CITY OF STONE' on the next week with 2 back-to-back episodes for 2 weeks. In hindsight, this ruined two brilliant cliffhangers, but then I was gorging myself for CoS anyway from seeing teaser pictures of Demona blasting away stone humans.
Well, obviously we don't agree about Reawakening. Certainly not about X & D. But that's o.k. Glad you had something to look forward to.
'HER BROTHER'S KEEPER' comments.
I've always loved 'DEADLY FORCE' but every time I watch this I like it more. Derek is just such a brilliant character! He's got a great stubborn attitude mixed with ambition and a wish to be supported. And Xanatos is so smooth!
"Yeah, use the force Lex!" was just one of those all-time classic lines that got me rolling around laughing. This being the case, I only noticed when watching it again how silly the helicopter repair thing seemed.
I'd already seen 'THE GATHERING PART ONE' (but annoyingly, not part 2!) when I saw this so the revelation that Fox loved Xanatos was hardly a big surprise to me. Still, Fox's self-assured scheming attitude always delights me. The prison scene that I always loved was in 'THRILL OF THE HUNT' - one of those eyebrow raising moments when you realise that this is a bit different from 'Ducktales' and 'Turtles'.
And the snow is breathtaking. I also like the ambiguity of the ending. It's magical. Fantastic stuff.
Thanks.
Prison scene in "Thrill"? Uh, do you mean "Leader"?
'ENTER MACBETH' comments
This is a glorious episode. I suppose I can see why you don't like the animation, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as you make out. Of course, I didn't see it before you cut it.
This is one of the episodes that I remember my first reactions to quite well. Firstly, I had no idea that this was the same Macbeth that Shakespeare wrote about. I thought it was some mercenary that had the name because it sounded cool or something. It was only when 'CITY OF STONE' aired that I realised that he was the same as the king.
Kenner should have had a field day finding ways to build a Macbeth mansion with all those traps. The Hall of Mirrors was especially cool.
I never really considered the implications of Macbeth's claim that he named Demona. I remember being quite startled, but it still never made me think in the slightest that he was the Shakespearian Macbeth - he could have given her that name in the 1980s.
I love the Goliath and Elisa arguments here. Rather than have the fact that they really love each other be painted all over the shop, and have the two get on like a house on fire, this story has them arguing. It's not the only one. It's just gorgeous.
I also liked the credits at the beginning. It might be a small touch, but it always seemed so much more 'grown-up' than having them hidden at the end. Just like the "previously on Gargoyles..." section, it was one of those little touches that said: "look! This is different!"
A lovely episode.
Thanks. (What else can I say?)
'DEADLY FORCE' comments
This is my favourite episode of the first season. It's thoroughly gorgeous.
One, I like Dracon. Glasses is nifty too.
Two, I like Elisa. The real human Elisa that is, not just the side that larks around with gargoyles all night.
Three, I like Broadway. I didn't do that much originally, but I certainly do now.
But there's so much more that's cool here. Elisa in the hospital, the subtle introduction of her family, the gun moral...
I actually never noticed - or at least don't remember - the blood. I might have been aware that it was there, but I can remember the scene quite clearly and don't really remember the blood. That wasn't what hit me. There was a brilliant impact from seeing her 'dead'.
It was lovely to see Matt in there too. Great stuff.
Thanks. Obviously, that's one of our signature episodes. I'm very proud of it.
'THRILL OF THE HUNT' comments.
Hi there, Greg. I'll be a bit behind everyone else with these comments I'm afraid. Should I put episode comments in separate posts if I talk about separate episodes? I'll do it just to be on the safe side.
Anyway, I like this episode a lot. It gives us the best view of Lexington's personality of the 66 (or indeed, 78), and I like the Pack here. Actually, the Pack appeal to me more here than in most of their subsequent outings. The predator/prey irony is very appealing, but the 'Evil Ninjas' amused me too. I wonder what happened to all those guys?
I never understood why this was listed under your list of dodgy animation anyway, really. Goliath was especially well-drawn throughout.
Loved Billy and Susan. The injustice is immensely frustrating to me, which of course is what makes it so great.
Incidentally, the first scene was nifty too. I'm not sure what about it appeals to me so much; maybe the great drawing, maybe the 'calm before the storm' tone, or maybe it's just because it's got Owen looking so... Owen. But it always sticks in my mind.
Pity that the last time I watched it (about a year ago), I pressed the wrong button after I wound it back and taped over this and most of 'TEMPTATION' before I realise what I'd done. Humbug. (It also took me forever to tape in the first place; Disney Channel UK ran through the whole series but played 'LONG WAY TO MORNING' twice in the proper spot and instead of 'THRILL OF THE HUNT'. Seems like it's one of those doomed episodes for me... not as doomed as 'MONSTERS' which I tried three times and had a disaster each time, but...
Sorry, it was so tough. This was one of the episodes released on Home Video? Could you get it that way?
Me again!
I just realized that I had to thank you for those ramblings. :) I mean, I never thought of those episodes that way before, and now that you're explaining them, it all makes sense now. :) Thank you again, Greg, not only did you make one of the best shows there has ever been, but you've opened our minds. I mean, you've inspired us. Some fans have become great artists, some great writers, and some you've simply changed their lives! Like me! I'm a completely different person! And all because of the defenders of the night! I'll thank you always, I'm sure other fans will thank you too. :)
I'm looking forward to the rest of the ramblings. :) Thank you!
Hey, you're welcome. And that thanks train runs both ways. I've gotten so much out of all the interaction with the fans.
Her Brother's Keeper:
This is one of the episodes that I watch the tape of frequently. Probably because it has some focus on Jackal and Hyena interacting, and such beautiful animation. Little details of the J&H converasation at the diamond exchange stood out to me, like the way Hyena kicks Jackal, then smiles at him, and the contrast between the two. "What's to keep us from just grabbing it and shooting our way free?" "Style, dear sister, style."
I always noticed that those two seemed to have a big thing for knives. Always whipping them at someone. Although I am curious about where Hyena had been hiding the knife at the Exchange. Her dress didn't seem very ideal for concealing weaponry.
Nichelle Nichols did the diamond exchange saleslady's voice. Eep. Forget the villains, that woman was terrifying :-)
I also noticed the irony about Jackal & Hyena, the bad guys of the episode, getting along better than the good guys are. They may be nut cases, but at least they're compatible. It seems that they have more fun with their fighting than anything else.
"Any landing you can walk away from." Doesn't Xanatos say also say that in 'City of Stone'? It's one of the quotes from Gargoyles that I remebered even after I hadn't seen the show for four years, along with "What's the matter, never seen a cybernetic jackal before?" and "I trust you about as far as I can throw you."
Hyena's smile at the end is a really intruiging moment. I love the animation there. I had it as my computer background for months, the bonus being that it scared my friends.
Anyway, thank you for your time.
Thank YOU for your time.
'THE EDGE' comments.
Not a big favourite. The animation is gorgeous, and the ending is sublime. But the Steel Clan echoed the Foot Clan a bit much for my tastes. I can't remember my first viewing that well, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't expect the red robot to be Xanatos. (Although I should have, because I'd seen 'FUTURE TENSE' a few months previously).
In hindsight, there are several nice touches and the writing is delightful. But it wasn't one of those episodes where the difference between normal action cartoons and 'Gargoyles' leap out and grab you.
I guess I just never liked the Steel Clan.
Oh, well...
They speak well of you though.
HER BROTHER'S KEEPER
Boy, I'm dense. I hadn't realized just how far the "siblings" idea went (Jackal and Hyena were right out of my mind--I just thought they were good villains).
Speaking of the terrible twins, they got some pretty good dialogue throughout, but especially at the beginning. I like how Mr. Reaves managed to put in some exposition on the other Pack members and make it sound organic. BTW, Hyena thinks Dingo knows how to have a "good time," eh? If what she said was true, and considering her own personality, Dingo changed A LOT by the end of the series. And I always have to say "OW" when Hyena digs her heel into Jackal's shin.
I kind of figured the gargoyles were throwing the twins out of the 'copter with the intent to kill. I pretty much KNEW you guys would slap parachutes on them, but I didn't expect the gargoyles themselves to be that "PC". Like I said, I always liked that edge.
Going to the trio--some of the best lines in the series there, IMHO. And most of them Brooklyn's! "Famous last words," "Yeah, use the Force, Lex," and "You and what Starfleet" always make me smile. I also like the look on their faces when Goliath yells at the Maza siblings at the end. A particularly memorable moment that. Excellent dialogue (Mr. Reaves always seems to have a gift for that).
Now I get to the main part of the ep. Just as the Trio and Hudson (who doesn't have a single line in this ep, hmmm) had their own ep to shine, this one belonged to Elisa. I liked the struggle she had with her brother over Xanatos. I began to notice the irony of each sibling's discussion with their parents in later viewings, but the fact that both siblings were wrong did strike me. As for that ending...I was sure he was going to play the tape and listen to it, but I did like it that the ending was ambiguous as to that event. The snow was a nice touch, too (and it actually made a crunching sound when they walked on it--this was the first animated show I saw where that happened!).
And one must admire Xanatos and his chutzpa. Love his ego in this one. Then there's Fox. When I saw her final remark, with the camera position and lighting, I knew that she loved him, or was at the very least infatuated. I didn't know if the feeling was mutual, however.
BTW, the beverage that Peter Maza was drinking...was it alcoholic?
I do enjoy watching this ep.
Don't remember what Peter was drinking? Guess I have to watch it again.
One additional response to your "Her Brother's Keeper" ramble. You mentioned that the original idea for Catscan/Talon was to make him a scientist in Xanatos's employ who got mutated, but then realized that it should be Derek instead. I felt that the role going to Derek was a very good idea. If it had been a more or less unconnected scientist, it could still have made a good story, but making the victim Derek strengthened it. Here, it isn't just anybody getting mutated, but Elisa's own brother. Not only does that tie the victim in all the better with the main characters, but it also brought in those great scenes at the end of "Metamorphosis" where Elisa, after discovering who Talon really is, proceeds to let Xanatos have it, and then weeps back at the clock tower. I'd say that the Gargoyles Universe intuition was batting a thousand on that one.
Yeah, sometimes it all just made sense.
'LONG WAY TO MORNING' comments.
Just like 'TEMPTATION', I loved this first time around. It had Demona, it had the Dark Ages, it had a thrilling chase scene, loads of laser blasting, a lot of atmospheric running water (I love it when running water is used alongside high drama - I don't know why, but it always appeals to me). It's fraught, has a great graveyard scene and lots of cool flashbacks. It shows us Goliath out of action.
But as I go back to it the thing that annoys me most, is Demona. She grates so much! Her dialogue seems to be frustratingly similar throughout.
Also, I felt that the Archmage was weak here. He lacked the conviction and menace that made him such an effective villain in later episodes. Which is probably why I forgot all about him, and by 'VOWS' (which I saw months later first time around, because of the order GMTV showed it) my memory had fogged sufficiently so that I got him confused with the Magus.
Well, Demona doesn't bother me in this. I like the contrast (and lack there of between the flashback Demona and the modern day). To each his own.
'TEMPTATION' comments.
Hi, Greg.
When I saw this the first time on GMTV, I was blown away. At least, for months after this was the episode I remembered. It had Brooklyn (whose name I took about 20 episodes to memorise for some reason), and more importantly - it had Demona. I loved Demona here, and I was delighted at the theme of betrayal that flows through here. There's a great sense of hurt. It's really gorgeous.
But watching it the second time and times after, I have to say that I was less impressed. Demona seems to have a stock of classic villainess threats that she doesn't really grow out of in this season. They were great first time, but I'd seen 'LONG WAY TO MORNING' just the episode previously (see my 'THRILL OF THE HUNT' comment) and heard very similar dialogue.
Also, I can't help feeling that the ending was a bit of a con. It was very clever, but the idea that all through CITY OF STONE, HUNTER'S MOON and whatever comes after Goliath is still under a spell from episode 7 (even one that is inactive) doesn't appeal to me much.
Well, it always was a cheat. Getting off on a technictlity. I thought we could get away with it, and in a way, I think it's sorta cool, from a trivia standpoint, but I was aware that some people wouldn't be pleased. Ah, well...
Long Way to Morning.
I love this episode. It's definately one of my top ten. Quite well done overall, but I love it for one reason above the others:
This is the last time we will see Demona like this. No, it's hardly the last time we'll see her being evil, but after City of Stone, (And Vows, to a lesser extent) our perception of Demona changes. Post-COS, Demona's a tortured sociopath who's spent the last 900 years living a painful, screwed-up life. Even if most of that was her own doing, there's still some sympathy factor there. (Of course, this is all just my opinion, others may think differently)
In Long Way to Morning Demona's just *evil*. From her casual "Ciao" to the (she thinks) dying Elisa to... almost everything she says to Hudson, she's just pure and unadulterated badness.
The fight in the graveyard is quite cool, especially the sequence where Demona's wings unfold from behind the angel statue, (complete with sinister flash of lightning) Hudson swings his sword, and it looks like nothing happened... until the statue falls apart, bisected diagonally.
And of course, there's the irony of Hudson's last words to Demona, about patience coming with age, which only shows up the second time through. Demona, of course, being probably nine or ten times older then Hudson, but has still never learned to think things through calmly, rather then charging off in anger.
That's a refreshing analysis. I like it. Does the flashbacks in "Long Way" to an heroic if pushy Young Demona mitigate or exaserbate her "unaduterated badness".
And there's nothing like a well-placed "Ciao" to indicate villainy, is there?
Hey Greg,
Episode 12. Ahh, Episode 12. I guess I could ramble on about the excellent animation and such. But I'll answer your Q's;)
Derek working for Xanatos: You know..it really didn't throw me for a loop. Don't get me wrong, this isn't because you guys were being predictable. Certainly not. It was because after 11 episodes of Gargoyles already I realized that this wasn't your joe-blow plot line. The kind I can show up halfway and watch five min's and guess with dead near perfect accuracy what is going to happen. No, this was GARGOYLES we were talking about. I just got into the habit of NOT guessing at anything. That is probably the wussy no-brainer way out..infact it _is_ the no-brainer way out. But for the most part it is true. I wasn't shocked, though I was throughly (sp?) entertained. It was awsome to, again, see you guys doing unconventional things with lead characters. It's just such a breath of fresh air to see a main or basic character get pulled into the muk. I know that is probably a little crule on my part. But just because you are nice most of the time, and important, dosn't give you a free pass out of all the crud that can go wrong in life.
The Irony: Like you said..it was _everywhere_ in this episode. Just like Episode 6, it made it sparkle for me. It wasn't black and white. There wasn't one side that was dead wrong and one side that had it correct. It's cool to see characters fighting for things that arn't per say wrong..they just don't work in that perticular situation. Like you said, stuff happens.
Chucking the twins off the Chopper: Well, I guess it never really bothered me since, as you already pointed out, they had parachutes. So all is well right? But I suppose I never _really_ thought about it enough. As you had pointed out in your post, _did_ the trio _know_ they had those parachutes? Your answer is very statisfying (sp:P) to me. Just like Goliath and his whole "We defeated him, the castle is ours now" complex, it shows that they still have a lot of throw backs to their Wyvern years. Not that they just _adapt_ to this century and become modern day crime busters. Again, its just a nice touch.
Xanatos' bravado: I think you just about rounded it up for him as usual. Him telling Fox to spill the beans freely for Elisa didn't _shock_ me per-say, but it did make me shake my head and grin at that guys audacity. I mean.._really_.
David and Fox sitting in a Tree: In this episode it's pretty clear that something is really up with these two. I don't think I _really_ caught it with the force that I did untill this episode. But when I did, I didn't have any after thoughts like "Hmm wonder how long this will last." They are just _perfect_ for eachother.
Eating Jokes: Ya..it did get strung out. But it wasnt like "Oh geez, this again?" I mean, they are siblings..and sibs will be sibs. I didnt expect any of them to get really original in their come backs. Besides..it was nice to just sorta ween viewers off of the whole eating machine lable that got stuck on Broadway in earlier episodes. If he had just _stopped_ being somewhat ..well a big eater will say, or the subject was just dropped like a stone I would have been kinda thrown.
Well, I suppose thats pretty much all I got. Another contest ha? Coolies. Though I dont _think_ I'll enter.
Oh and by the way Greg. I'm sure you probably already know this. But if you gave one of us a box of used paperclips off your desk, most fans would be like "OH MY GOSH!! I have _GREGS'_ PAPERCLIPS!!! And he actually USED THEM!!!"
*shrugs* I know..but its probably true:) Were kinda insane that way.
Well, I have about two hundred paperclips here. I can probably use each of them in a couple hours if I work at it. Then I can put them -- individually, mind you -- up for auction on E-Bay. I wonder what I'd get?
See. You're not as insane as you think.
An addendum to my last post. I'm really enjoying these "episode ramblings" of yours, and thought that I'd thank you for posting them. Until/unless you get to write a book about "The Making of 'Gargoyles'" (for which, alas, there doesn't seem to be a market at present - I fear that Gargoyles fandom isn't big enough yet to offer enough sales to make a publisher happy), this counts as the next best thing.
You're very welcome. And thanks. I like reading your responses as well. Wish I could get you to attend a Gathering.
A sort of "return-ramble" about "Her Brother's Keeper". One thing that I will admit is that the first time around that I saw it, I actually believed that Elisa's tape recording of her conversation with Fox would change Derek's mind about remaining in Xanatos's employment. Of course, we know from "Metamorphosis" that it didn't happen. (The one thing that we probably never will know was whether Derek never listened to the recorder or whether he did but remained unconvinced even after listening to Fox's words on it. Admittedly, after the way that Elisa had been pushing him to leave Xanatos's service, I suppose that it's not too surprising that even the recording wouldn't have changed Derek's mind).
I agree with your analysis of the behavior of the Mazas over Derek's situation. (And I've got to add that I consider Elisa's meeting with Derek in the locker room a BIG mistake on her part; it obviously didn't do her cause any good. Not to mention that it wasn't too much fun for a lot of her male co-workers, either :)
I also enjoyed your analysis (which I thought was also very accurate) of the trio in this episode, and of Goliath. And I agree that the snow at the end of the story is a great touch in conveying mood.
I'd also noticed about why Jackal and Hyena would still be at liberty in this episode (and Dingo, too); nobody had seen them chasing after the gargoyles and their actions hadn't endangered any humans, so only Fox and Wolf would be facing charges and locked away in prison. (Of course, by the end of the ep, it's a whole different story for Jackal and Hyena).
Yep.
LONG WAY TO MORNING
A little late, I know, but we all get bogged down in RL every now and then.
I liked the Archmage. Now this is mostly because I just like magic-using characters no matter how cliched (just an odd affinity) and my like for this character increased when (on the second viewing) I finally recognized his voice.
I also like the exposure Hudson gets in this episode, and was thrilled to see that the ep showed how his eye was damaged. As far as I know, usually when an animated character is introduced with a damaged/missing eye it is not shown how that happened. I was glad that "Gargoyles" actually took the time to do that.
I must admit, although I noticed Malcolm's casual use of the gargoyles as a boogeyman to scare Katharine during my first viewing of the episode, it was in the later viewings that their long-term effects really started hitting me. Apparently, Malcolm can be quite thoughtless at times. I wonder if he lived long enough to see Katharine's growing dislike for gargoyles.
The fight with Demona, while for the most part well staged, was not quite as interest grabbing for me (always liked the characters more). In fact it's mostly in how Hudson handles that fight and views it that really grabs interest. There are a few moments in the fight that stretch credibility (Hudson cuts through a statue but Demona's gun remains [apparently] in one piece, etc.) however, Demona using the gun as a blunt instrument was not one of them. To me, she just seemed the type that would do that sort of thing.
I never really thought about the "hidden meaning" of the last exchange--I guess because I already took it for granted that the gargs were not fight-mongers. But all the same, I love the wry humor in it.
Me too.
Hey, I'm a big fan of the Gargoyles and I've been reading 'The Gargoyles Saga' Gargoyles. It's really cool. I was wondering what comments on the series would be?
I really like Goliath and Elisa together.
I'm not involved with "The Gargoyles Saga" and I don't really understand what you're asking me.
But I like Goliath and Elisa together too.
dear greg,
i love th gargoyles show and i've been watching on sunday on disney's sneak peek on toon disney. the only proble is they shut it off. our cable operator doesn't carry toon disney so i have no hope of seeing it ever again. please help! i really love watching gargoyles.
I'm glad you love it. But what would you like me to do?
Ahh man. Todd pointed out the Demona/Lady Macbeth connection before I did.
Since I'd rather not repeat everything he said, I'll just say that "Long Way to Morning" was a great episode.
Oh by the way, I'm glad the Archmage did return. I like evil sorcerors, even if some are cliched. And David Warner is one of my favorite voice-actors. He was great as Ras al'Ghul in Batman, and Alpha in MiB. Thanks for bringing him back to "Gargoyles". It's just too bad that we didn't get "Dark Ages".
Ditto to everything you said.
Hey Greg!
This is another response to a ramble on another beautiful ep!
Like Erin said, it's not supposed to happen. The brother of our heroine isn't supposed to be in the employ of the Bad Guy. The thing that interested me most was that scene with the different reactions between the trio. Broadway and Brooklyn's lines beg some thought… Derek should trust you… but trust doesn't mean much without honesty. In a kid's show, there is usually a very clear definition between Good and Bad, but Brooklyn is subtly saying that she hasn't been entirely honest with her brother. I love my trio. Oops, there's three. And poor Lex who carries a grudge as long as any other gargoyle is inching out the Six trying to start hunting the Pack down. Great personality work. These aren't Huey Duey and Louie.
Again, the Good and Bad thing going on with Xanatos. He's supposed to be the antagonist, but he just acts so… suave! One might mistake him for a great guy… I guess Derek did.
The scene with Fox? I think the beams of light from heaven surrounding her enraptured face as she pictures "David" gave it away. :) When I first saw it, I for some reason thought that Fox was infatuated with Xanatos, but didn't know it was mutual. Silly me.
Thanks!
Nah, you're not silly. We had to have some secrets.
In regards to "Her Brother's Keeper."
Great episode for Xanatos. The convuluted plan demands respect, but I was even more impressed with how his whole team worked together. While Elisa is bickering with her brother, Xanantos, Fox, and Owen are working together seamlessly to call the tune. Even Jackal and Hyena seem to be playing at sibling rivalry rather than suffering from it.
And, yes, it was obvious Fox had a thing for Xanatos here. Also that she was already pretty close to him. Not only is there that whole "brilliant man" line, but she also calls him David. Not many people in the series are on a first name basis with the guy.
The coyote diamond would be a great clue later on in the series. Was this conscious forshadowing for "Leader of the Pack" or "Cloud Fathers?" I'd guess almost certainly the former and perhaps the latter as well.
Xanatos and Coyote. Two-sides of a coin.
A response to your ramble on "Long Way to Morning."
When I first saw this episode I was enthralled. Hudson has an easy competence about him that reminds me of my father, so I was happy to see him get his time in the sun, or out of it as the case may be. I truly enjoyed watching him be alternately crafty and amazingly physical. That spinning leap with the sword was one of my favorite moves in the series.
Unfortunately, this was an episode that didn't age well. After "City of Stone" Hudson's line about age and waiting really didn't mesh with Demona's background. I'd guess the back story hadn't been filled in when "Long Way to Morning" was written, but it still strikes me as a continuity glitch.
Not true. I knew Demona's backstory -- or at least the gist of it -- by then. There's no glitch that I can see.
Demona doesn't get what aging's all about. Anymore than Xanatos understands true immortality. Demona escaped growing old. She has no patience for it or much of anything else.
(And don't start with "she was patient with the Medici Tablet". You don't know that.)
This is sort of a brief reply to your reply to my comments on "Awakening Part One".
The "friend" conversation was the point where I decided that I liked the gargoyles - in the sense of species. (I'd already decided that I liked the series when the "Scotland - 994 A.D" segment got underway).
Yeah. It's a nice moment.
HI! I'VE RECENTLY GOTTEN INTO GARGOYLES AND I'VE BEEN WATCHING THE SNEEK PEEK OF TOON DISNEY THAT DISNEY SHOWS BECAUSE IT HAS THE GARGOYLES SHOW. BUT THEY'VE STOPPED SHOWING IT AND OUR CABLE OPERATER DOESN'T HAVE TOON DISNEY SO I HAVE NO WAY OF EVER SEEING THE SHOW AGAIN. I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR WEBSITES WITH SUMMARIES OF THE EPISODES BUT THERE AREN'T VERY MANY WHEN A WEBSITE DOES HAVE THEM. CAN YOU HELP?
I suggest asking this question in the Station 8 Comment room. Someone there should be able to send you where you want to go.
By the way, you're "CAPS LOCK" button is on.
(Wouldn't it be funny if it was still on here in June?)
Hi I have to find some pictures and information on Gargoiles and I was wondering if you could please send me some info at perks57@hotmail.com
Thanks
Nope.
But I'll answer your questions here if you have any...
A comment on Pyro X's "Gummi Bears" question.
I actually saw a slight similarity between the two series myself, but more in terms of the overall situation of the title characters. Both Gummi Bears and Gargoyles were portrayed as non-human sentient beings who once lived alongside humans, until that came to an end through human hostility (in the Gummis' case, driving most of them overseas, in the Gargoyles' case, destroying most of their clans), leaving only a few scattered communities/clans left, which would only gradually begin reconnecting with each other and recovering what was lost.
(I might add that I recall the presence in the latter part of the series of some Gummmis from the Barbic Woods who were portrayed as particularly suspicious and unsympathetic towards humans, and can easily imagine many gargoyles in the Gargoyles Universe having a similar attitude).
Yep.
Gummi Bears was a big influence.
Not to be confused with Care Bears. Puh-leeze!
A sort of "ramble-reply" to "Long Way Till Morning".
I'll have to confess that the only part of my "first time I saw it" response to this episode that I now remember (other than my delight at another medieval sequence - the 984 scenes in this case) was that I initially believed that Prince Malcolm would actually succumb to the Archmage's poisoned dart, and that this was how he'd died. (It was obvious that he must have died at some point before the 994 events in "Awakening", naturally, since Katharine's ruling Wyvern by then). So the fact that, in the succeeding flashbacks in this episode after the initial one, he does live in the end, surprised me.
I certainly agree with you on the Katharine-and-Malcolm scenes; I'd also felt on my own before reading that ramble that Malcolm was unwittingly planting the seeds of bigotry in his daughter when he used the gargoyles as a means of frightening her to be good. (Kind of reminds me of something I'd read once in either "Dear Abby" or "Ann Landers" about a policeman protesting the way that a few parents use police as "bogeymen" to scare their children into being good similarly). Indeed, Prince Malcolm's judgement really does come across in this episode as a bit on the poor side beyond Katharine; he's overly confident about the Archmage no longer being a threat, while Hudson correctly recognizes that the sorcerer could return for revenge - and indeed, the Archmage does.
Demona's ambitious streak in the 984 scene reminds me a bit of Lady Macbeth similarly urging Macbeth to dispose of Duncan in Shakespeare's play - which, when you stop to think over her future, is rather appropriate. (Indeed, in "Sanctuary", Demona actually becomes "Lady Macbeth" in a literal sense - and if you ask me, she fits the Shakespearean character far better than Gruoch ever did).
I must admit that I've always had a certain fondness for Hudson, and he certainly comes across as a sympathetic figure here. One can't help but admire his dogged persistence in keeping Goliath safe from Demona in the present day. He may think of himself as all washed up, but he still does his duty in protecting Goliath against a very determined adversary.
Two scenes I particularly like in this episode, both near the end: the sight of Demona slowly approaching through the graveyard in the distance, and the bit where she emerges from behind the stone angel - both positively creepy.
This was a great story, I thought.
And I agree with your Demona/Lady Macbeth assessment. A lot of that was intentional.
I read your rambles on the episodes of Gargs so far, and here are some of my comments.
I was definetly surprised by the clan losing the castle in "Enter Macbeth", it seemed improbable that masssive changes would happen like that. I liked how "Gargoyles" did things like that. I was constantly pleasantly surprised.
Another point in "Enter Macbeth" I'd like to comment on is that I think it's good that Macbeth was not wearing exo-armor. It shows how skilled a warrior he is.
The Edge is one of my favorites. Xanatos is so cool in it. I did think the exo-frame was a robot. You fooled me. Another reason i want to see the show back is so I can see whether or not I know all your tricks.
Can't wait to read your other rambles.
I give so many of my tricks up in this space, that I'm sure there are almost no surprises left. Oh, well. Thanks for the kind words.
A brief thought on the Edge.
I was indeed quite surprised when the red robot was revealed as Xanatos... I had thought it was just an very advanced robot, possibly a recurring character, but I never thought it was Xanatos himself...
And ofcourse in 'Leader of the Pack' you used that eralier episode to your advantage... Now *everyone* expected Coyote to be Xanatos, and noone expected him to be a very advanced robot... Very intentional, I suppose?
Weirdly enough, though quite a bit older than Erin, I also felt a bit nervous in the Statue of Liberty battle... I tend to do that when in TV monuments/antiquities are casually endangered... A bit silly perhaps, but there you have it... :-)
"Very intentional, I suppose?" Yep.
Actually, I know how you feel about the monuments. That's part of the reason why Planet of the Apes is traumatic. And why we stole from it for "Future Tense".
No question this time, just a comment.
Love the show, I love the animation and how well drawn everything is, I also like the originality of the show, the storyline is awesome, and very well thought out.
"Hunter's Moon" is my favorite episode, I love the battle scene between the gargoyles and the hunters inside the cathedral. And then it gets canceled, what the HECK were they thinking? Were they unaware of the show's popularity?
And on top of that I don't have Toon Disney! Oh the agony!
Looking forward to the movie though.....well anyway, just wanted to say thank you for such an excellent show, I can't say that enough, and i'll continue to hope to God that the show comes back.
Me too, Chris.
Here's a response to your rambles on the episodes.
I will never forget the first time I saw Enter Macbeth. I had just returned from a Winter Break in which my brother had introduced me to this fascinating new series. That first Friday in January I gathered as many friends as I could and we crammed into a friend's dorm room to watch. We were enthralled. For months afterward we quoted "Bzzzt . . . Ow" and "Actually, yes." Even Bronx's myterious ability to rescue Brooklyn and Lexington somehow played positively with us. Watching the show became a minor ritual for us, indicating that the weekend had truly begun. We even went so far as to rent Akakening when the show was preempted by a local sporting event. good times indeed.
And a nod at the continuity. I loved the Steel Clan battle in the Edge. The Gargs are sublimely self confident as they wade in, only to be forced to concede that their foes are a lot tougher than they used ro be. Courtesy of Xanatos' security cameras watching Macbeth demonstrate proper techniques for Gargoyle hunting, of course.
Of course.
Aboot the Digimon scheduling> What I meant to say about it was that it has two runnings. One where it goes from beginning to end continuously. This is good for first time viewers and viewers that may have missed an episode. Then, it has another running (sort of) where they can show new episodes without having to run through however many episodes there are first. Plus there's advance warning about the airing of new episodes. I just thought that was an effective airing method. I wanted to share. Sharing is good. I should stop before I go Barney on you.
Okay. Thanks. (Especially for not going Barney on me. <shudder>)
THE EDGE
This is always a fun episode for me to watch just because of Xanatos. To me this seems very much to be his episode. Agreed, the fact that he didn't penalize Owen for having beaten him at sparing was very refreshing (and totally in-character for him, I thought). The scene between him and Goliath is priceless. Usually in "animated action/adventure shows" it is the villain who blows his top and rants while the hero remains cool. Here, just the opposite occurs. It's very nice to see the villain not falling prey to the usual pitfalls and cliches.
And no, when I first saw this I didn't think that Xanatos and the Red Steel Clan were one and the same. When the "robot" began ascertaining the status of his comrades, my siblings and I (we were all watching this episode together) remarked that Xanatos had apparently created a robot that could think. Then our jaws hit the floor when we came to the Tag at the end.
The cliff-hanger of Act I did have less of an impact on me because I knew the thief was Steel Clan, but I still did wonder what Elisa might do, and how she'd explain herself out of it.
Matt left me intrigued. Not so much from his little spiel on the Illuminati, but from the fact that he DID make a good point about partners (you already gave the quote). One would almost expect his type of character to be an idiotic bumbler and/or a complete jerk--comedy relief. I'm glad he wasn't just a one-note character, but actually got to grow and develop along with everyone else.
I also enjoy the scenes of the clan adjusting to their new home. Goliath reading Dostoyevsky (however the heck you spell that). I haven't read any of his works yet, but maybe when the mood takes me.... (Considering what Goliath ruminated on while reading the book--Xanatos, the castle, and so forth--I think I can guess the title of the book).
And of course, SUPERB animation.
Xanatos was always our idea of the hero as villain (not to be confused with an anti-hero). He'd have a lot of very heroic traits, even some our heroes didn't have.
As for Matt, what use would an idiot partner be to Elisa? I respect her too much to saddle her with a fool.
My two young daughters prompted me to watch "Gargoyles," and now I'm hooked, too--just for different reasons. Hmm, then again, maybe not for different reasons. ...
I think it's great that you incorporated elements of Shakespeare, Arthurian legend, etc. (My kids really impressed their preschool teacher when they started name-dropping Shakespearean characters left and right.)
And I am especially impressed with how you and your colleagues were able to make me care so much about animated characters--a definite tribute to the quality of the storytelling and characterization is my guess. The romantic in me just loves the careful development of the Goliath/Elisa relationship. Subtle-but-emotion-filled glances, touches and comments (sometimes even unbeknownst to the characters themselves) make it all the more romantic and all the more regrettable that there are no more episodes to see it play out further.
My question relates to "Hunter's Moon, Part III." How does Goliath internalize his failure to save Elisa since he had promised that he would always be there for her (I think in "The Gathering")? Now, granted, I don't think Elisa would ever expect ANYONE to always be there to save her (although it's a nice and loving concept she can appreciate). But I think Goliath expects it of himself and would have a difficult time, at some point, accepting that he was not able to save her (not to mention that he was in part responsible for causing her to fall, albeit accidentally) and would not be able to just put that behind him.
Of course, I'm the first to cheer when their relationship does move to the next level with the kiss and all (and later in "The Journey" with the mutual statement that neither of them regrets their chosen path). The earlier "Hunter's Moon" scenes involving Jason, as well as the revelation that Elisa is OK after all, certainly provide the two with plenty of compelling motivation to more openly acknowledge how they feel about each other. But still, I can't help feeling Goliath's characterization would not allow him to simply consider all that happened while he was caught up in seeking vengeance as a lesson learned and move on. Your thoughts? (And thank you.)
Wow. I like letters like yours, thanks. THis response is so long after your post, I just hope you stop by to see it.
I don't think anything was settled. And I think some of the TREMENDOUS FURY coming off Goliath after Elisa's "death" was an obvious result of guilt -- classic Demona-style-"I'm blaming you for my failing"-guilt. But once she's revealed to be alive, obviously, a huge chunk of that goes away. I imagine that sometime, off camera, he had some kind of, "You nearly died and it was my fault" moment with her. And she immediately said something incredibly sensible. He's smart enough to KNOW she's right. But that doesn't change how he feels. Obviously, again, he'd continue to be protective of her. But they're way past the point where he can pretend that he can some how keep her out of dangerous situations.
So the CRISIS is on hold. But I think it'll surface, at the worst possible moment, the next time her life is truly -- as opposed to every-episode-casually -- on the line.
Hey again:)
Episode Ten..The Edge..man..one of my faves. The animations was AWSOME. *gets all girly* AND they drew Lex's face just perfect!! Not to angular, not to large. His eyes were great, and his head shape was perfect! Ooooh And I just LOVE the sceens between him and Broadway. When the show a quick shot of Broadway helping Lex out of the ruble. Broadway is talking to Goliath saying something like, "But why? I thought they..blablabla. Lex gives Broadway this really fast smile. I just love that moment. They really are good friends. *stops being girly* OK anyway
I think it was pretty obvious that it was David the whole time..but I didnt really care much. It was still cool to see him and G-man duke it out. I loved when David said, "I'd fire you if you did." That was the best.
As you mentioned, the whole robot/Goliath thing was rather annoying. I did find myself saying, "well duh" during it. It is too bad. But we know you had good intentions ;) Sometimes the animation gets away from ya.
The shots of the Trio on and around Lady L. were excellent. The animation was just..stunning..gee have I said enough about the animation in this ep? Well. I loved it. I suppose I should shut up now:) see ya!
Don't shut up. At least not while you're complimenting me. MORE MORE! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
A sort of "ramble-response" on "The Edge".
The revelation at the end that that "red Steel Clan robot" was really Xanatos in "gargoyle-armor" certainly did surprise me when I first saw the episode; up until the end, I had thought that it was just a more improved Steel Clan robot with some proper artificial intelligence programmed into it so that it would know when would be a sensible time to retreat. But it certainly did make sense, particularly in the context of Xanatos's explanation at the end (which did indeed nicely fit in with his judo match with Owen at the beginning).
I definitely sat up and took attention at the inclusion of a jewel named "the Eye of Odin", being a big Norse mythology fan, but I must confess that I never suspected that it was literally that until I saw "Eye of the Storm".
One of my favorite parts of this episode remains the exchange between Goliath and Xanatos at Castle Wyvern, which I feel so effectively captures their respective characters; Goliath's passionate nature, Xanatos's calmness and arrogance. (His "You're taking this way too personally!" line has to count as the ultimate chutzpah).
Thanks for the filling in a bit about Travis Marshall, by the way. (He seems to have gotten promoted near the end of the series, by the way; in "The Gathering" and "The Journey", he's been advanced to anchorman, and even serves as moderator in the debate between Macbeth and Margot).
My sentiments exactly.
Not a question but a comment. I had thought that this show was just a kids show. I was proven wrong. The complex plot lines, the mix of magic, medieval history, Shakespearean characters, old English myth. It was great. I am only sorry I didn't video tape the series and that I didn't have a chance to see them sequentially.
Just some Kudos to the creators and people responsible for the series.
Thanks, Jeffrey.
If Goliath ripped off Macbeth's leg with Macbeth's full consent and agreement, and beat Demona to death with it, would that count as Macbeth killing Demona?
Give me a break...
Ah, The Edge…
I just adore that scene where Owen and Xanatos are sparring. The first time I saw that episode though, I thought it was laughable: Owen Burnett in a gi, his glasses and electronic organizer set aside so he can be beat on by his employer. I was quite surprised when he actually won. I looked at Owen a lot differently from that point on. He is, as Demona likes to say, "A force to be reckoned with."
I'm afraid I did guess that the red robot was Xanatos. Still, the part at the end where he removes the helmet is wonderfully dramatic.
It's been a long time, so I don't remember for absolute sure, but I think, since the museum was so dark, I thought it *was* Goliath stealing the Eye. You're right, it seems obvious, but after that scene with him roaring at the news report and the whole clan looking at him in that, "uh oh, he's lost it," kind of way, I thought he was enraged enough to do it.
About Munch's "The Scream" (and this is straight from my art history text): it's in Nasjonalgalleriet, Oslo. Don't ask me where exactly that is… but it's not in Manhattan. Sorry.
Absolutely amazing that the Emir was mentioned this early in the series but wouldn't physically appear for another season or so. Were you planning the Avalon eps in that much detail, that much ahead?
I *love* Travis Marshall. He always seems to tell it the way it is… whether it's against public opinion or not.
I'm with Erin. I was on the edge of my seat in the battle scene, seeing this ep for the first time, not as much because of the danger and action, but because I was sure someone was going to damage Lady Liberty. Why did Xanatos choose her as their battle field anyway? Goliath had said before that he probably didn't want anymore damage done to his city…
Thanks, Greg. We love ya!
RE: "The Scream". I've never been to Oslo. I feel like I saw it in Amsterdam. But it doesn't really matter. It could have been a traveling exhibit. Happens all the time.
RE: The Emir. No, we didn't have Grief planned in THAT much detail that far in advance. The point is that little touches don't get by me. That was, I believe a Reaves/Perry throwaway line. But I remembered it. The second time the Emir is mentioned, in season two, I did have Grief in mind.
RE: Travis. I like him too.
RE: Lady Liberty. Sorry, but didn't the Gargs choose the battle sight?
He Greg,
Last week I posted a treatise on the current status of Disney TV Animation. I just learned that Disney/Pixar is working on an animated series called "Buzz Lightyear of Star Command." So much for my stagnation theory.
No question, just comment.
Thanks
Sorry, Phil, but the nature of ASK GREG is such that I don't remember your treatise, or the point you were -- and thus are -- trying to make.
I wrote a couple episodes of BUZZ. It was pretty fun.
Mr. Weisman,
I would just like to say Sir. that you and the team at Disney did a fine job when you created Gargoyles. It was a great show with indepth characters and interesting plots. Each time I watched a episode I always looked forward to the next episode.
Thanks. Me too.
I am sure that you must know of many gargoyle sites,so I was hoping that you might know of a place to obtain patterns for making stuffed versions of gargoyles (not the ones from Disney but general gargoyles).
Actually, I don't know of that many gargoyle sites. So unfortunately, I don't know the answer to your question. I'd try posting it in the Station 8 Comment room. Or trying one of the many links in the links section.
Hey hey. I still remember seeing the first episode of Gargoyles. I guess I was about 9 or so. I still get goosebumps when I watch the intro. And I wasnt surprised to read that you work on the ST series. I've watched it too from its first broadcast (in my area anyway). I think I've only missed it 3 times but seeing how they dont play the episodes in any specific order odds are I havent missed anything I havent already seen. But onto my question. Can you sum up the Goliath Chronacles for me? I never saw them since for a while I didnt have cable and dont currently have toon disney. Thanks.
Erin says: I think that was a very good question. I have a friend at school and his name is Nicholas. And he likes the GARGOYLES show too. And Nicholas has a nickname, and his nickname is Nick.
Greg says: I'll sum up "The Journey" which was the first episode of THE GOLIATH CHRONICLES: Goliath is brooding about the loss of the Clock Tower and about how humanity seems to be perpetually at odds with the Gargoyles. He visits Elisa. And they are attacked by Quarrymen, a KKK-esque organization that hates Gargoyles. Elisa & Goliath survive, and Goliath realizes his Journey isn't over. (A lot more happens, but you asked me to sum up.) As for the other 12 episodes of Chronicles, well, I had nothing to do with them. They aren't cannon in my mind. And I'm not qualified to describe them to you. Ask in a comment room.
Jeez, I guess it was a subconscious want for a response, when I threw that little 'Bone' comment in with my last question. *blushes* But really, I didn't expect you to; in fact I thought you'd say more about the Canmore brothers than you did. Oh well :Þ
By the way, Jeff is getting his movie made. Nickelodeon pictures is fronting it (for an undisclosed six figure sum), but he's directing and writing and producing...in other words, everything he SHOULD be doing in order to get the job done right. This should be a VERY good film, scheduled to come out some time in 2001/2002. Character Builders in Columbus, OH, which Jeff helped to found, is doing the animation.
But then again, he owns his creation. If only you owned Gargs...well, we always contribute it you anyway. When I think of Gargoyles, the 'D' word never pops into my head, until it's blared out at me during the dumb ToonDisney commercials.
Well Greg, keep on keepin' on, and hope all goes well with the future (for both you and Gargs).
~H\A~
Thanks.
I can't wait to see the Bone movie. I hope Jeff kills with it.
Hi, Greg.
Just last night, I was talking to a few of my floormates, talking about childhood cartoons, toys, and the like, when the subject of the Disney Afternoon came up. After going through each cartoon in the order that they aired, we came to "Gargoyles," at which point I was surprised to learn that it was pretty much a consensus that the show was "amazing." I say "surprised" because I didn't figure these types of people to appreciate a show like that, yet here they all were, in the same room.
One person in particular appreciated the "Avalon" storyline. He loved the mythology, and didn't know until a chance encounter at the library after "Mark of the Panther" that Anansi existed outside of the show.
Just letting you know that there must be tons of people you reached with "Gargoyles" that aren't even part of the fandom.
Great.
[But Scott, try to recruit them, eh? :)]
ENTER MACBETH
A series like "Gargoyles" is build (in my opinion) on the strength of its villians, and Gargoyles had some of the BEST villians going, especially Macbeth. Even Xanatos, in armor, didn't try to take on all the gargs at once (The Edge) much less succeed the way Macbeth does. Throw in the character's phenomanal personality and history, and you have one very engaging and dangerous guy.
As to the episode itself... I'm forced to agree it was the worst animation in season one. Did you notice in the final shot of Macbeth (in the tape Owen shows Xanatos) that he's got a mustache! Personally that bugged me more than the other probelems. At least keep the character's LOOK right! :)
My favorite part of the episode, amongst many cool moments: While Goliath battles Macbeth, Bronx frees Brooklyn and Lex by CRASHING BODILY STRAIGHT THROUGH THE ELECTRIFIED BARS! This time without the benefit of diveted current. This feat is so impressive it even shocks Brooklyn and Lex. Just look at their faces! I think their actually scared of him at this moment. In my mind, this established Bronx as being, pound for pound stronger than all the gargs, including Goliath.
My two cents... thanks for listening, er.. reading.
Bronx is tough. And probably a bit underused in the series. One of the reasons I was determined to take him on the World Tour.
Macbeth is also tough. Resourceful, etc. Definitely wanted to establish that in his first appearance. He's a major kick-ass guy.
Both fun characters to write.
THE THRILL OF THE HUNT comments
You said we take for granted such things as Continuity & Real Ramifications. Well maybe in Gargoyles we do, but that's cause you've spoiled us! :P
But I think that's one of the main reasons Gargoyles is so loved by it's fans. Things don't just happen, everything we see has a reason for it and in turn everything we're seeing will be a base for future actions.
At the end of that ep. I also loved it when Lex mentioned that it was nice to know there were a few heros left (implying Goliath was his hero). I found that beautiful since it would explain Lex's disapointment on Future Tense. (seeing as how the whole clan felt abandoned)
About the change in POV, (could you believe I hadn't noticed till now) but now that I did, I loved it!
Great Job Mr. Weisman! ^_^
I didn't mean that the fans take it for granted generally. What I meant was that looking at the episodes now (having seen them multiple times) it's easy to miss little details of continuity that were more impressive (if harder to spot) at first viewing. (Does that make sense?)
As for the POV shift, that was designed to be very subtle, to have a subconscious influence on your emotions. It's probably a good thing that you never noticed it before. Means we did our job.
And thanks.
A ramble-reply to "The Thrill of the Hunt".
I liked reading your comments on it. I will confess that I can't remember now what my response was, when I first saw this episode, to the fact that Xanatos was still in prison or to Elisa's indication that the gargoyles would have to leave the castle (although looking back on it now, I'd say that I appreciate both - and the bit at the end where we get that look at Xanatos again and that taste of his character). A few bits that do stand out to me:
1. I always get a bit of a chuckle at the way that the announcer shouts, "Oh, no, it's the Evil Ninjas!" The guy sounded there as if he'd taken the same acting class that Sevarius did :)
2. That little bit where Lexington enthusiastically calls the Pack "defenders of the realm". I liked that touch as fitting in with the gargoyles' medieval origins and the fact that, so soon after their awakening, they'd still be seeing the world in such a light.
3. The bit where Billy and Susan show up was extremely funny, particularly the groans and facial expressions from Fox and Hyena over the timing of their arrival. (And I must confess, I hadn't even given that much thought to Wolf showing a bit more smarts in that scene in coming up with a way of explaining the gargoyles to those kids. Thanks for pointing it out).
I'm looking forward to the rest of your rambles on each individual episode.
Thanks. I like all those things too. (That's Jim "Dingo/Darkwing Duck" Cummings saying "Oh, no, it's the Evil Ninjas!" Jim is, of course, a fine actor. It takes real skill to ham it up that badly and still make it play funny and not cringe-worthy.)
In response to your recent {though you're probably reading this a few months from when you posted them} rambles about the gargoyles episodes. You asked for responses to the episodes "Awakenings" so heres mine. I loved Awakenings parts 1-5, they were very well animated and written, when I first heard about Gargoyles I figured that it was another dumb cheap cartoon that lasts for ten episodes before being cancelled because nobody likes it but needless to say Gargoyles proved to be the best animated series I have ever seen. It had everything I liked in it, from mythology to Shakespeare to history to wonderfully unique characters to great animation etc, etc, etc...Awakenings was not the first episode of Gargoyles I saw but it was great nonetheless. Xanatos's quotes were great {finally a main villian that isnt a moron, another thing I liked about the series is that the villians were not a bunch of idiotic side-show freaks}. You, Frank, Michael Reaves and everyone else always did a superb job on the show.
THANKS!
Fan support helped!
Awakening 5:
Demona's name revelation got me interested in thw hole series. I had heard that they were adding this show to the dis afternoon, and I thought "What a horrible title,". Boy, was I wrong! It was the first ep I'd seen, and at that point, I turned on the TV to "See" what the show was about. That was the first scene I saw... and it got me hooked. It was very dramatic... Walking through the smoke, eyes glowing... very cool. I loved the Animation!
I'm glad it worked for you...
But, hey, what's wrong with "GARGOYLES"?
Here are my comments on Ramblings of Awakening (1-5)
I must admit, when I first saw Gargoyles, I thought it just another Ninja Turtles clone. Strange creatures in NY, a pretty woman vow to help the creatures. But Goliath made the difference; he never smiled, he was way too serious; he wasn't like other heroes.
I wasn't hooked up on Gargoyles yet, but I kept watching. I couldn't tell why. (Maybe because it played only on friday at that time). Anyhow, I still admit that animation, dialogue, characters were great, but I found that action was so-so.
But later, I'll learn that there are things more important than action in cartoons. Thanx for changing my views Greg!
The action was so-so?
What show has action you like?
I'd never thought about it until you said so in your rambling about Awakening 5, but it does seem strange that right after he is reunited with his love, Goliath goes, "Well, it's been nice seeing you, but I have to go meet Elisa." The crash of the airship affected him much more than he let on from the outside. Perhaps they were DONE far before Vows… maybe before even Demona knew they were…
BTW, I *always* use my thumb, index and middle finger to say "three." Oh, and get this, I use all but my ring finger for four. I'm just weird like that.
That line, "There is good and evil in all of us. Human and gargoyle alike," has always been my favorite. It says so much with so few words… and it's a universal truth for so many scenarios…
Words to live by...
Hi Greg
Once again thanks for the opportunity to chew the fat.
One thing that always bothered me was how easliy the surviving clan memebers pick up their lives after the sudden murder of almost everyone they cared for. When they wake up in Manhattan for the first time, by their reckoninging, the massacre occurred the day before and would be fresh in their minds. I couldn't even imagine getting out of bed or even wanting to go on if I lost my family. Yet the trio are resilient enough to go exploring. I know they are in a brave new world and all but would they be so thrill seeking after so recently being rocked with grief. I hope I don't sound overly critical here, I don't mean to be. It just appears that the emotional impact of the massacre on the clan isn't as pervasive through the series as I'd expect. I just keep coming back to the notion that grief over a loss of that magnitude would be almost paralyzing. Would they even want to be alive?. Obviously, for the show, yes but ..... uhhh .
And then there is Tempatation. I know Brooklyn is grateful to Demona for saving him from the bikers, but you have to think that in the back of his mind he's thinking, "My family and friends were killed because of what you did !" I'm surprised he didn't go for her throat. How angry are we at the drunk driver who unintnentional kills. I certainly wouldn't want to be in the same room with that individual let alone take a tour of the city them.
If the clan is capable of getting on with their lives so quicky and still not give into to hating Demona then they are certainly better than I am.
The massacre is fresh in their minds, because no new experiences have taken their place. But they were asleep. Not in suspended animation. There is a sense of time having passed. A long time. A lot of dreaming. Not the next day.
I think maybe we could have, and should have, done more with survivors' guilt, post-traumatic stress syndrome, devastation, etc. We mostly personified that in Goliath, in episodes like "Awakening, Part Two" and "Shadows of the Past". It WAS more emblematic than honest, I'm afraid.
But, yeah, we did have a series to do. And five suicidal miserable gargoyles don't make for much of a show. Plus, I think we gave them REASONS to go on. A new world to explore and understand. Opponents to distract them. New friends to help mitigate the pain. And we did deal with it on occasion and would have continued to do the same.
As for "Temptation", I think the very confusion that the Massacre engendered kept Brooklyn from thinking straight. When there are so few gargoyles and we know that humans (i.e. the Vikings) did the actual killing, it's hard to know (that early on) whether or not to maintain a hate for Demona. Obviously, after Temptation he didn't have that problem.
And, you know what, maybe these particular Gargoyles are a bit better than you and I. I chose to write about heroes. Not average joes.
My little "return-ramble" to your "Awakening Part Five" ramble.
One part of this that I especially like is Xanatos's response when Goliath's holding him over the edge of the castle, correctly pointing out that "without me, you'd still be gathering moss". It's refreshing to see a major villain in an animated series who doesn't start whining for mercy in such a situation but maintains his sang-froid. That's one reason I find myself having that sneaking fondness for Xanatos: he defies so many of the cartoon master-villain cliches. (Other examples of that are his complete lack of interest in getting revenge and his having the highly efficient and capable Owen for his chief assistant in contrast to the conventional "bungling sidekicks" that most cartoon villains seem to be saddled with).
Your remarks on the little ironies in Goliath and Demona's conversation surprised me: I hadn't even considered the fact that Goliath's remark that the people responsible for the Wyvern massacre was deliberately intended by the writers to be wrong because of Demona's part in it, but it makes sense to me at once. I've got to admit, I think that Goliath must have afterwards had a very hard time believing that he'd actually argued that Xanatos was proof that there are good humans out there :)
One certainly can't help but feel a little sorry (or maybe even more than a little sorry) for Goliath; first he thinks that his "Angel in the Night" is lost to him forever. Then he gets reunited with her, only to discover that she's become lost to him in a much darker sense, turned into a vengeance-driven would-be genocidist. At least he has the rest of the clan and Elisa; that must be some consolation there.
I must confess that I never made the connection between Goliath's "Giants?" line at the end and Oberon's gigantic form. (There do seem to be giants apart from that in the Gargoyles Universe, since I remember spotting a couple in Oberon's throne room in "The Gathering Part One"). I did see that line, though, as another good little example of how Goliath is still seeing the modern world through his 10th century eyes. (One of my favorites, which I forgot in my earlier "Awakening" responses, was that bit where Xanatos has to describe the "stolen" disks in terms of "magical talismans filled with hundreds of spells". I thought that the production team did an excellent job of showing the gargoyles' response to the modern world).
Thanks. I'm speechless.
"Anyway, to indicate three she holds up her index finger, her middle finger and ... her thumb."
It's part of the secret Illuminati handshake. They had a member working at Disney Japan. (Didn't Roy work on Elisa? No one trust him...)
Personally, I liked the part where Demona announced her name... although I had already seen The Mirror by then, so I'm not sure if the fact that I already knew her name and what she was like affected my impressions of that scene in some way.
Um... I have no idea which topic Gore will archive these under, so I don't know if they should have be submitted separately or not. He needs to add a "Random Comments From Fans" topic to the archive, so I won't have to be confused about it anymore.
Actually, I choose how and to where things get archived.
I'll follow your suggestion more or less.
Hi Greg!! I was just reading your interview with Lexy. You said that you hoped Gargoyles would inspire people to learn more about sujects you touched on... and I realized that it has done exactly that for me. In fact, I don't know if I realized the magnitude of an impact Gargoyles has had in my life until I thought about that...
In The Mirror when the clan is trying to explain to Elisa who Oberon's Children are (I thought everybody knew this??), Brooklyn says, "Yeah, that guy Shakespeare wrote a play about them: A Midsummer Night's Dream." The next day after I saw that episode, I had the play in my possession and began poring over it. This began a love/obsession for Shakespeare- particularly that play.
Also, I read your ramblings about Theseus and decided I needed to learn more about him. Mary Renault's The King Must Die stuck out in my memory one day between classes and I found it in the library. I'll post again when I'm finished with it.
In ancient history 103, I could be tired and completely tune out my professor, but I'd hear the word "Scotland" and snap back awake and pay perfect attention.
I never really thought about these things as they were happening, but looking back I can see that so many things I've learned or done came from gargoyles: I'm teaching myself to draw, I want to visit New York... stuff like that. I wanted to say... thanks!
And I want to say "YOU ARE VERY, VERY WELCOME!" As a former educator (who's about to start teaching again tomorrow) your message really warmed my heart.
Shakespeare and Renault are two of my favorite authors. It thrills me that I turned you on to them.
But you know what? The show had the same effect on me. I've fallen in love with Scottish History as well. I knew nothing about it before GARGOYLES. Now I'm fairly well-versed and, at the very least, very interested.
HEY! TELL YOUR TEACHER!